←2012-08-14 2012-08-15 2012-08-16→ ↑2012 ↑all
00:04:03 <shachaf> soundnfury: I'm not LWian!
00:04:06 <shachaf> Whatever that is.
00:06:36 <soundnfury> shachaf: you appear to be in #lesswrong
00:07:55 <shachaf> I'm in a lot of channels.
00:14:29 <Lumpio-> If it had a Bluetooth module it should be able to handle a wiimote, I dunno about drivers though
00:14:33 <Lumpio-> But if you're gonna replace the OS anyways...
00:14:42 <Lumpio-> s/had/has/
00:21:13 <zzo38> Lumpio-: I mean the Bluetooth hardware, not the drivers. Some Bluetooth hardware seems to be incompatible with Wii remote.
00:21:19 <Lumpio-> Really?
00:21:21 <Lumpio-> That's weird
00:21:27 <zzo38> I don't know why.
00:21:29 <Lumpio-> I thought the wii remote was a completely normal Bluetooth device
00:24:11 <zzo38> It says it is HID joystick with zero buttons, zero axes, zero everything else, since it uses its own protocol.
00:24:47 <Lumpio-> Yeah it doesn't work with a HID driver alone but a proper Bluetooth module shouldn't care what protocol things use
00:24:50 <Lumpio-> That's the OS's job...
00:26:23 <zzo38> I know it won't work with a HID joystick driver, I know it will only work with program that specifically uses the Wii remote, but it seems some Bluetooth hardware fails to work with it for some reason, although maybe it is a mistake.
00:26:55 <Lumpio-> Well taking into account all the weird kind of hardware out there I guess it's possible that some half-arsed Bluetooth implementation would fail to work with specific devices...
00:27:09 <zzo38> Yes possibly
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00:29:52 <zzo38> What would be your opinion of this? http://wiki.nesdev.com/w/index.php/User:Zzo38/DotFami
00:44:14 <Lumpio-> Mappers as components huh
00:46:01 <zzo38> Yes. Just a few seconds ago I fixed a few things there too.
00:46:32 <Lumpio-> Is there really demand for that? It's not like there are so many mappers you can't just quickly implement each one in the emulator
00:46:42 <Lumpio-> I doubt any new ones will be made either.
00:46:50 <Lumpio-> Also is there a reason for not just using Unicode for text?
00:46:53 <zzo38> I expect the current "Mapper Audio" list is complete, although the "Mapper Component" list is probably very incomplete.
00:48:07 <zzo38> Lumpio-: Well, you might want to implement customized mappers, too. Also, the reason to not use Unicode text is due to being too complicated to display and cannot fit into a CHR ROM (although it may be changed to Unicode or even a different encoding; this document is a draft anyways).
00:49:07 <zzo38> Many things have changed since th first version of the draft, from suggestions and other things, such as increasing the number of banks to 16-bits instead of 8-bits (I thought 8-bits was enough but I was told otherwise, so I corrected this).
00:49:39 <Lumpio-> Why do things that have nothing to do with the functionality of the game like the title or published information have to go into "CHR ROM"
00:49:46 <zzo38> The CPU mode flag was different; it used to contain some features which are unneeded so I removed the unneeded features.
00:49:53 <Lumpio-> Can't it just have extra metadata tags that are completely separate from the game ROM itself?
00:50:10 <Lumpio-> publisher* even
00:50:27 <zzo38> Lumpio-: They don't, but if you want to make up a multigame cartridge it would be useful for them to be in CHR ROM. They are not a part of the CHR ROM of the .fami file itself.
00:52:07 <zzo38> (Of course the multigame cartridge itself could also be implemented using this format, and the program to create the .fami for the multigame cartridge could add a CHR ROM for the titles and so on.)
00:53:19 <zzo38> This is also one of the reasons for the "***" entries in the ASCII/shortkana table (another reason for the "***" is since some emulators might use null-terminated strings internally, and so on).
00:56:36 <zzo38> But it may be changed since it is draft, and if you have any arguments against it then please to say so.
00:57:03 <quintopia> "it is bad for no reason"
00:58:40 <zzo38> That doesn't count.
01:11:44 <zzo38> Nevertheless I plan to add feature to MagicKit assembler for NES 2.0, UNIF, and DotFami output formats, by adding the following commands: .NES2SUB .NES2PRGRAM .NES2CHRRAM .NES2TV .NES2VS .UNIFMAP .UNIFTV .UNIFCTRL .UNIFCHECK .UNIFBATTERY .UNIFVRAM .UNIFMIRROR .UNIFPRG .UNIFCHR .FAMISYM .FAMIMAP .FAMILABEL .FAMICPU
01:16:50 <zzo38> I also intend to define some format for files which are used to convert iNES and UNIF mappers into DotFami which can be used by an emulator supporting DotFami to convert iNES and UNIF files internally into DotFami (no need for .fami files of those games) and automatically supports any iNES mapper numbers and UNIF mapper names defined in future!
01:21:16 <Lumpio-> What's the "short" for shortkana for
01:22:24 <zzo38> Because it a shorter encoding than the full hiragana+katakana and Unicode and ShiftJIS and whatever else.
01:22:34 <Lumpio-> k
01:23:00 <Lumpio-> It's missing some pretty common characters though.
01:24:03 <Lumpio-> I'm pretty sure ァィゥェォ (the small versions) appear in game names all the time
01:24:14 <Lumpio-> And perhaps even ヴ
01:24:52 <zzo38> OK I can add those, possibly rearranging some existing to make room (such as replacing the WA column with the small A column and moving around)
01:25:08 <zzo38> You are correct.
01:27:48 <zzo38> OK, I fixed it. Thanks for notifying me.
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01:30:32 <Lumpio-> (I still firmly hold that any and all text should be stored as UTF-8)
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01:36:34 <zzo38> For some cases UTF-8 is too complicated or there are other reasons not to use it. Sometimes UTF-24 or UTF-32 will be wanted, or ASCII, CP437, or another encoding which is suitable for whatever it is being used for. (If I wanted to store data of a Commodore 64 metadata, or music or whatever, I would use the C64 PETSCII instead of ASCII.)
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02:05:22 <Phantom_Hoover> Lumpio-, what if you want your text to be random-accessible?
02:05:52 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: Yes that is another thing to consider.
02:06:52 <zzo38> Do you know of Open Pandora NAND flash is subject to read disturb?
02:07:17 <Phantom_Hoover> That's quite a big one, unless you're Elliott "write a fortune that selects a random line in the quote file and seek backwards to a separator, statistics be damned" Hird.
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02:37:29 <Sgeo> Is Comodo firewall terrible just because http://www.reddit.com/r/netsec/comments/7ldfz/watch_out_for_phony_certificates_comodousertrust/
02:43:23 <Phantom_Hoover> Probably not, but why not just use a different firewall?
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02:45:59 <Sgeo> >.> I already installed it on my friend's computer (Windows Firewall isn't working)
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02:56:01 <augur> are there any "competitions" for developing board game AIs?
02:56:15 <augur> i imagine that would be something some people here would be interested in
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03:10:04 <Phantom_Hoover> augur, well you could enter them in a board game tournament.
03:10:20 <augur> Phantom_Hoover: i was specifically thinking of AI-vs-AI competitions
03:11:04 <Phantom_Hoover> augur, multiple AIs could enter!
03:11:11 <augur> :P
03:11:29 <augur> we should start an AI-vs-AI competition!
03:13:14 <oerjan> there surely must be some in chess
03:14:08 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Computer_Chess_Championship
03:14:26 <augur> nice
03:14:40 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_Olympiad
03:14:51 <augur> im more interested in algorithmic competition tho
03:15:01 <augur> because that looks like its just arbitrary comeptition
03:15:30 <oerjan> "For the 2009 edition, the rules were changed to limit platforms to commodity hardware supporting at most eight cores,[1] thereby excluding supercomputers and large clusters."
03:15:39 <oerjan> i guess that makes it more algorithmic
03:15:52 <augur> ya
03:16:00 <augur> we should start one tho!
03:16:13 <augur> maybe for go or some other more exotic game
03:16:53 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Computer_Chess_Championship#World_Chess_Software_Championship is even more specific
03:18:39 <oerjan> "Games which the Olympiad would like to run, but have so far been unable to due to lack of entrants:"
03:18:42 <oerjan> Arimaa
03:18:43 <oerjan> Twixt
03:18:45 <oerjan> Matrix
03:22:56 <augur> we should develop a thing for designing Go algorithms
03:23:37 <augur> like, it would basically need to be a game environment with common commands for interacting with the game
03:30:22 <itidus21> gofuck?
03:31:09 <itidus21> ^just a joke
03:31:22 <augur> lol
03:31:42 <augur> itd be interesting to try different styles of problem solving too
03:31:48 <itidus21> derivatives include gofuckyourself
03:31:49 <FreeFull> So I'm learning Haskell
03:31:52 <FreeFull> Is this a good idea?
03:31:55 <augur> FreeFull: yes
03:32:17 <FreeFull> So far nothing too unusual encountered
03:32:53 <augur> how bout the monads
03:33:35 <itidus21> gofuck encapsulates it's side effects in gonads
03:34:16 <FreeFull> If this tutorial has introduced monads to me yet it hasn't done so by name
03:35:15 <augur> FreeFull: good.
03:35:18 <augur> what tutorial?
03:37:11 <Sgeo> augur, how about Arimaa?
03:38:19 <FreeFull> LYAH
03:38:39 <augur> Sgeo: whats arimaa
03:38:42 <augur> FreeFull: ahh hmm
03:39:44 <augur> Sgeo: ah, it seems interesting i guess
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04:14:30 <oerjan> zzo38: i saw edwardk made a suggestion on a ghc mailing list to change Control.Category to use PolyKinds
04:14:59 <oerjan> he had several possible applications listed
04:16:08 <zzo38> oerjan: O, well it is something similar to what I have suggestion I guess
04:16:42 <zzo38> Do you know if you can get USB hardware (host and cables too) which are compatible but are not labeled as compatible with USB?
04:16:48 <oerjan> yes i thought it sounded relevant to things you've discussed
04:17:06 <oerjan> and no.
04:27:17 <zzo38> Are there possible to make a USB vendor ID that can be used by a large number of products? Is there possibility to just use zero VID/PID/serial for large number of things (possibly with a switch on the device if multiple device need to be distinguished)?
04:31:33 <zzo38> Is zero a valid VID/PID for USB?
06:05:37 <itidus21> google Is zero a valid VID/PID for USB?
06:05:44 <itidus21> @google Is zero a valid VID/PID for USB?
06:05:46 <lambdabot> http://developer.intra2net.com/mailarchive/html/libftdi/2011/msg00315.html
06:05:46 <lambdabot> Title: Re: 1.0: Allow to search for all FTDI standard VID/PID
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06:12:22 <Lumpio-> zzo38: ...what are you trying to do to USB
06:14:07 <itidus21> he accidently the USB
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06:17:06 <zzo38> USB has some problem such as requiring VID/PID for each vendor and product, and they are each only sixteen bits anyways, and you have to pay a lot of money for them. Other problems with USB are security problems, and so on.
06:17:26 <zzo38> So I want to avoid these problems.
06:17:31 <Lumpio-> Security problems such as?
06:17:44 <Lumpio-> Also if something is compatible with USB it's going to have the same problems.
06:18:18 <zzo38> Security problem such as connecting what seems to be a USB memory to the computer and have it act as a keyboard instead, you can mix up your computer with that (and this has been done).
06:19:06 <itidus21> zzo38: there is a potential way around it
06:19:32 <itidus21> VID/PID pooling... but i guess theres probably strict rules not to do that
06:19:35 <zzo38> I know there are ways around it such as requiring a USB keyboard to be connected at boot time, and so on.
06:20:13 <fizzie> PCI Device and Vendor IDs are 16 bits each, too. That seems like the Thing To Do, really.
06:20:25 <zzo38> Yes I know there are rules against VID/PID pooling I think it means you cannot call it USB or compatible with USB if you use not the correct VID/PID and other things incorrect too.
06:20:59 <fizzie> You can't use the logo without passing the USB-IF compliance program, that much I know.
06:21:19 <itidus21> what i mean by that is, using the same VID/PID for several different products
06:21:30 <itidus21> and also for several different companies
06:21:45 <itidus21> a virtual vendor so to speak :D
06:22:09 <zzo38> fizzie: I know, I read that on Wikipedia too
06:22:12 <itidus21> im probably so completely wrong about this that i should stay out of it
06:22:37 <zzo38> itidus21: I think that is also disallowed, but still it was my idea to do exactly that, and just don't use the USB-IF compliance.
06:22:59 <fizzie> You do see same VID/PID combinations for different "products" when those products are just slightly rebranded versions of the same thing, but I suppose that doesn't quite count.
06:23:11 <itidus21> :-D
06:23:48 <fizzie> Like this "DeLock" brand hub I have, it's listed as "05e3:0608 Genesys Logic, Inc. USB-2.0 4-Port HUB" -- and so are many other 4-port hubs of various sizes and shapes and plastic molds.
06:23:54 <zzo38> Perhaps it should just always used 0x0000/0x0000 or 0xFFFF/0xFFFF
06:24:24 <fizzie> 0/0 might have compatibility issues. (I don't know if it would: but it sounds like it well might.)
06:25:43 <zzo38> Yes that is one thing I thought so perhaps 0xFFFF/0xFFFF should be used.
06:26:56 <fizzie> The linux-usb.org "usb.ids" master list has the entry for 0xABCD/0xCDEE with vendor "Unknown", product "Petcam". That sounds like another case where someone has made a USB-"compatible" device without bothering to go through USB-IF registration.
06:34:00 <fizzie> Also from usb.ids: http://sprunge.us/WXhJ
06:43:32 <zzo38> Why do they need that? That seem for human specifically and also does not tell the difference of left hand and right hand, and "calf" is not capitalized.
06:44:22 <fizzie> The capitalization might have been a typo of the person who made the list from (presumably) the HID specs.
06:44:39 <fizzie> And it's from the "Human Interface Device" stuffs, so I suppose it makes sense it's for humans.
06:44:52 <fizzie> I don't exactly know what those numbers are used for.
06:45:06 <zzo38> OK, but still why do they even need that list at all, and why is there no distinctuion between left and right hand?
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06:47:14 <fizzie> There's another set of "BIAS" numbers with meanings Not Applicable, Right Hand, Left Hand, Both Hands, Either Hand. Perhaps those are used in conjunction with these when the side is important.
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06:48:08 <zzo38> Why do they make that stuff so complicated?
06:48:54 <fizzie> "Physical descriptor sets are optional descriptors which provide information about the part or parts of the human body used to activate the controls on a device." That's what they're used for.
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06:49:11 <fizzie> For distinguishing the eyebrow button from the fifth toe button.
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06:50:08 <zzo38> I still see no need for such thing.
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06:51:39 <fizzie> "Note: Physical Descriptors are entirely optional. They add complexity and offer very little in return for most devices. However, some devices, particularly those with a large number of identical controls (for example, buttons) will find that Physical Descriptors help different applications assign functionality to these controls in a more consistent manner. Skip the following section if you do ...
06:51:45 <fizzie> ... not plan on supporting Physical Descriptors."
06:52:04 <fizzie> (USB HID DCD, 1.11.)
06:56:17 <zzo38> Is there a hardware description language that you can specify by transistors?
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06:57:46 <zzo38> According to esolang wiki "The entire execution unit for muxcomp64 would be extremely small, very close to 16K transistors (not gates, transistors)." How to build such a thing, how fast would it be, and how efficient in terms of program size?
06:58:17 <itidus21> I have heard of the esolang wiki.
07:07:07 <FreeFull> Hey, ARMv8 will be 64-bit
07:07:52 <fizzie> It adds that AArch64 thing; does it make it mandatory?
07:08:10 <fizzie> They did have processors e.g. with and without Thumb, earlier.
07:09:48 <zzo38> I have read that only ARMv2 could be implemented freely (called Amber) because the new one require a license from ARM, which they don't have.
07:12:23 * ais523 submits an anarchy golf program that contains literal formfeeds
07:12:48 <ais523> I needed two characters that weren't present in the input to represent temporary codes to work on, and where I could match "anything but those characters" easily
07:13:16 <ais523> then I noticed Perl had a \V code for "not vertical whitespace", and so used newline and formfeed as my extra characters (both of which can be embedded literally into strings in Perl)
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07:25:01 <itidus21> "ais523_waterfall3 Trace and animation (warning: very long and very slow to load) " -- dismissed warning too hastily :)
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08:36:34 <zzo38> How do I buy a free and open source microprocessors?
08:37:28 <fizzie> With great difficulty.
08:37:47 <fizzie> You can run OpenCores things on FPGA devboards, but those aren't "open" themselves.
08:38:46 <zzo38> It seem FPGA always requires special software to use.
08:39:07 <zzo38> And even then they are still FPGA and not standalone units.
08:40:12 <zzo38> I can find some information about free and open source microprocessors without too much difficulty but none of them seem to be for sale.
08:40:31 <fizzie> OpenCores are trying to make a SoC-style ASIC version of OpenRISC, but I don't think they've succeeded so far.
08:43:13 <fizzie> When (if) they do, that should result in something you could actually buy.
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08:53:36 <fizzie> I think there are some "standalone" boards that are built around a FPGA chip which is just not terribly visible outside, but it's still a FPGA-based implementation on some non-open hardware.
08:54:54 <zzo38> Isn't FPGA less efficient than a specifically-build part, though?
08:56:11 <fizzie> Sure, but it also costs a lot less if you're only buying a couple.
08:57:54 <fizzie> The OpenRISC ASIC donation project mentions they'll need something like $35000-$750000 to proceed, depending on the technology.
09:00:04 <zzo38> What I want to be able to do is a free and open source microprocessor which, if the computer is turned off, and then the processor is removed and replaced by another one of the same kind from a different manufacturer who is not licensed with anyone and uses no common materials to build it, that the computer will run the same when turned on.
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09:06:47 <zzo38> So does OpenRISC cost $750000 then if I want to buy one?
09:06:55 <zzo38> I don't have that much money.
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09:10:18 <fizzie> zzo38: No, they just need that much money for the one-time manufacturing costs. They don't have any estimate for the unit price you'd need to pay if you wanted one (since it depends on how much money they manage to collect and what sort of manufacturing technique they can afford), but it's bound to be reasonably low.
09:10:30 <fizzie> zzo38: But yes, in the sense that if you wanted to buy one right now, you could donate them the $750000 and presumably they'd then manage to get something manufactured.
09:10:41 <fizzie> Maybe not quite "right now", but in the near future.
09:10:57 <fizzie> Unless they're going to just take their donations and move to Bahamas. You never know.
09:12:24 <zzo38> I suppose it is possible, but I doubt it.
09:14:22 <fizzie> Still, their web-forums aren't terribly active, so it's not certain at all that they'll ever get to the point that they'd be actually selling processors.
09:14:28 <itidus21> zzo38: it is possible that you will acquire $750000 of disposable cash
09:15:37 <zzo38> Is there sufficiently fast and efficient 32-bit processor which lacks the following features: serial numbers, DRM, virtual addressing, save state across power cycles
09:15:47 <itidus21> the temptation there would be to move into a 5star hotel
09:17:06 <itidus21> and somehow avoid becoming charlie sheen
09:23:09 <zzo38> I also don't want too many features
09:23:46 <zzo38> I like the one which are more simple!
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09:34:02 <itidus21> zzo38: well the positive side of hardware is that since it is physical it cannot be pirated so easily
09:35:28 <itidus21> this means.. hmm i'm not sure.. i guess it doesn't mean that much
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09:36:59 <itidus21> i suppose also that hardware emulation means that by investing in one very powerful piece of hardware, one can emulate 100s of less powerful but more prolific hardwares
09:37:35 <zzo38> But I want one that anyone can just copy without license fees (although they will certainly need to pay for equipment and so on)
09:39:58 <itidus21> the trouble with very powerful hardware is it has much less mobility, far more expensive, more concerns with heat dissipation
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09:40:29 <zzo38> Yes but I don't need very powerful hardware, but not too slow either.
09:41:37 <itidus21> im slowly understanding the business world.. very slowly
09:42:24 <itidus21> generally if a license fee has to be paid, a healthy business will pay it
09:42:55 <itidus21> this seems counter intuitive to me
09:43:53 <itidus21> but for instance, most companies which avoided NES licensing made crappy games
09:44:21 <itidus21> i suspect this may be because they lacked documentation and tools from nintendo though
09:44:34 <FreeFull> On the other hand, the Gameboy Advance has a lot of good homebrew games
09:45:06 <itidus21> FreeFull: well.. i just got a homebrew cart for my new secondhand ds today
09:51:49 <fizzie> If it's one of those that go into the DS slot (only), I doubt you can run GBA games from it.
09:52:27 <fizzie> (At least entirely trivially. Maybe someone's hacked something up by now.)
09:52:46 <itidus21> ahh.. i wonder what i am in for
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09:55:29 <fizzie> I have this "R4DS" microsd-to-DS homebrewness thing, though it's been quite a while since I last fiddled with it.
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09:56:17 <itidus21> yeah the one i got is r4
09:57:50 <itidus21> fizzie: well importantly i should ask.. is it the gba platform itself which is the issue, or is it the amount of work to emulate it?
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09:58:42 <fizzie> The DS is not doing any emulation to run GBA games, it's got the necessary hardware in it.
09:58:59 <fizzie> (The ARM7TDMI that the GBA uses is one of the two processors in the DS.)
09:59:10 <FreeFull> Well, the GBA has GBC/GB hardware in it
09:59:23 <fizzie> Okay, so the DS dropped those.
09:59:48 <fizzie> But I suppose no GBA-native game actually used the Z80 for anything? I don't know.
10:00:04 <FreeFull> Some used it for stuff
10:00:09 <FreeFull> I forget what for
10:00:14 <itidus21> fizzie: hmm ok so.. basically... instead of creating some bastardized solution to cater to idiots.. should i understand the general idea is to get a flash card which uses slot-2?
10:00:15 <fizzie> I suppose those won't work on the DS then?
10:00:30 <fizzie> itidus21: If you want to run things designed for the GBA, yes.
10:00:53 <fizzie> Though if it's homebrew, it sounds reasonably feasible for the author to make a DS-compatible build, since they do have the hardware.
10:01:16 <itidus21> i used to have a bunch of gba games until i traded them in for a pittance
10:01:56 <itidus21> but.... my ff6 gba was a counterfeit from ebay which had therefore no capacity to save
10:01:57 <fizzie> (For some values of "feasible", anyway. If they rely on extra RAM on the flash card, then probably not.)
10:02:51 <fizzie> DSLinux doesn't run terribly well on the plain R4, for example, since a slot-1 card cannot provide extra expansion RAM.
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10:05:17 <fizzie> (The slot-1 cartridge communicates with the system over a relatively narrow bus and a specific protocol that has read requests and whatnot, while the GBA slot is just mapped into the address space quite directly.)
10:05:25 <itidus21> i guess it couldn't hurt to have both when i get desperate
10:06:26 <fizzie> I'm under the impression that most of the slot-2 flashcards have some megs of expansion RAM in them, just in case.
10:06:35 <fizzie> (Never bothered to get one.)
10:06:48 <itidus21> ds browser comes with some kind of expansion
10:07:05 <fizzie> It does, yes.
10:07:13 <itidus21> i had that once
10:07:21 <fizzie> And DSLinux can use extra RAM from the browser expansion, if I recall correctly.
10:07:29 <nortti> yes
10:07:52 <nortti> it can also use dldi(?) storage on slot2 expansions
10:09:14 <fizzie> "It is technically possible to access media in both Slot-1 and Slot-2 but support is not currently implemented." (DSLinux wiki)
10:09:25 <fizzie> So I suppose you can't do mass storage on both.
10:10:03 <fizzie> I've booted dslinux a few times from the (slot1) R4, but it doesn't really have all that much use, especially without extra RAM.
10:11:08 <itidus21> ds lite was $56 .. card was $52.50 including postage.. i'm quite happy with that
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15:51:31 <kmc> it's strange that streets in finland have a finnish name and a swedish name
15:51:35 <kmc> (at least in helsinki this is the case)
15:52:28 <shachaf> heegan
15:52:48 <ion> kmc: It’s a bit as if Polish streets had both a Polish name and a German name.
15:53:02 <shachaf> They also have a Finnish anthem and a Swedish anthem, with different melodies.
15:53:02 <kmc> well, they don't put them both on the signs, do they?
15:53:04 <kmc> not anymore :)
15:53:07 <kmc> hichaf
15:53:09 <shachaf> s/They/We/, of course. :-)
15:54:41 <kmc> right
15:54:59 <shachaf> http://www.testtubegames.com/velocityraptor.html
15:55:06 <shachaf> @localtime
15:55:10 <lambdabot> Local time for shachaf is Wed Aug 15 08:55:06 2012
15:55:11 * shachaf has yet to sleep.
15:55:21 <itidus21> at least as far as i can convince myself things are wonderful, languages are really wonderful
15:58:37 <itidus21> like in english the word frog means someone who wears a beret
15:59:34 <itidus21> and if you call someone a frog you might say, pardon my french
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16:30:26 <fizzie> kmc: Some muncipalities are unilingual, they only put one set of names in signs.
16:31:26 <shachaf> In .il signs are generally supposed to be trilingual.
16:31:26 <fizzie> Apparently the proper word is "authority", not muncipality.
16:31:28 <fizzie> Anyway.
16:32:02 <fizzie> "The Language Act is based on a division of authorities into unilingual and bilingual authorities. The linguistic division is of importance both for the language rights of an individual and for the language obligations of the authorities. The obligations of a unilingual authority to provide service in both languages are more limited than those of a bilingual authority.
16:32:07 <fizzie> The basis of the linguistic division will, as before, be unilingual and bilingual municipalities. The grounds for the division will remain the same. Every ten years the Council of State decides the division on the basis of the information in the Population Data System regarding the language of each inhabitant of the municipality.
16:32:12 <fizzie> The current Council of State Decree will expire in 2012. According to the Decree there are 21 bilingual municipalities with Finnish as the majority language in Finland and 23 bilingual municipalities with Swedish as the majority language. Three municipalities are Swedish-speaking. The rest of the municipalities, 399 today, are Finnish-speaking."
16:33:00 <fizzie> Oh, so "authority" was referring to all kinds of things that serve people. Still.
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16:38:33 <shachaf> fizzie: They should add English.
16:38:40 <shachaf> Because, I mean, everyone likes English.
16:40:53 <fizzie> Then they'd have to invent translated names for every street. That sounds like a job.
16:41:45 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, Finland has jumped the shark.
16:41:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Of Swedishness.
16:42:15 <shachaf> fizzie: No, just transliterate the names into English!
16:42:26 <shachaf> ...I guess when you have almost the same alphabet, it doesn't make as much sense.
16:44:15 <fizzie> shachaf: But which name, the Finnish or the Swedish one? (Transliteration could do the äö -> ae, oe mapping, that always results in amusing names.)
16:44:28 <shachaf> fizzie: The Finnish one, obviously.
16:44:34 <shachaf> It *is* Finland, after all!
16:44:49 * shachaf uses logic.
16:44:50 <fizzie> I once lived on Jaeaekaerinkatu.
16:45:06 <Phantom_Hoover> also swedish words don't deserve to be spoken in english
16:45:18 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, proof positive that Finns are actually kobolds.
16:46:13 <Phantom_Hoover> http://1d4chan.org/images/1/16/Id_give_you_the_moon.gif <- accurate depiction of Finnish courtship?
16:46:17 <fizzie> There's also a Toeoeloenlahdenkatu.
16:46:35 <shachaf> Maybe .il signs should add Russian.
16:46:40 <shachaf> Then they can have four alphabets.
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16:47:16 <shachaf> Apparently something like 20% of the population speaks Russian?
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16:50:11 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: I think "Finnish courtship" in general involves much more drunk, but.
16:51:08 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, it doesn't show you but the bowl is actually full of vodka
16:52:28 <Phantom_Hoover> although given that finnish houses probably are like http://1d4chan.org/images/9/9f/Koboldhouse.gif
16:53:40 <fizzie> First Google image search hit of "Finnish house" for me gave a house in Gent, Belgium.
16:53:59 <fizzie> (Because it has "stark beauty with Japanese-Finnish undertones".)
16:54:28 <fizzie> http://images.travelpod.com/tw_slides/ta00/9ca/65a/a-typical-finnish-house-jamsa.jpg -- well, that is indeed very typical.
16:54:49 <fizzie> (I like how the windows are kind of wherever.)
16:55:37 <itidus21> mondarinish?
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16:56:51 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, well of course, finns haven't yet invented the straight ruler
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17:02:23 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: A traditional Finnish house: http://lh4.ggpht.com/-tnNFy8xax6o/RcaLthnHOAI/AAAAAAAAB-A/LJaFNvVGdR4/pikkuhuopalahti0015.jpg (not really)
17:02:46 <Phantom_Hoover> i like the pillars
17:03:10 <Phantom_Hoover> also are those things in the air cablecars, please please please tell me they're cablecars
17:04:04 <itidus21> no, those are finnish bicycles
17:04:28 <fizzie> I'm not sure what "things" those are. There are streetlights, and the tram power cables, that I can see.
17:05:04 <Phantom_Hoover> dammit
17:05:05 <fizzie> http://mediaserver-2.vuodatus.net/g/3004/1854115.jpg <- the backside; http://taivasalla.net/2003/2003-04/img/030410_1702.jpg <- the frontside.
17:05:19 <itidus21> fizzie: ahh.. well in many places streetlights are suspended from poles.
17:05:28 <itidus21> so having them on a wire is novel
17:06:12 <fizzie> itidus21: They're hanging from wires I think mostly in places where the trams go, I guess the idea is that you're going to have wires over the street in any case.
17:06:45 <itidus21> ie. yes, phantom thought the streetlights were cablecars
17:06:58 <itidus21> and i believed him
17:08:55 <fizzie> itidus21: The fakeblecars are here: http://goo.gl/maps/GXcVW
17:11:01 <fizzie> (Usually there are also far less pastel colours, but the neighbourhood is an unusual one.)
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17:15:40 <nortti> kallisti: are you working on haiku os project?
17:17:46 <kallisti> no
17:18:20 <nortti> ok. then it must be some other kallisti
17:19:39 <Phantom_Hoover> Streetview has surprisingly poor coverage of Venice.
17:20:22 <fizzie> Streetview had really poor coverage of some place.
17:20:25 <fizzie> Luxembourg, I think.
17:20:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Who cares about Luxembourg??
17:21:08 <fizzie> By "poor" I mean "none".
17:21:09 <itidus21> luxembourg could accidently get lost in border disputes
17:21:26 <fizzie> There's a whole lot of those Panoramio geotagged photos though.
17:21:42 <Phantom_Hoover> In the case of Venice I guess it's because the interesting parts of the city are all entirely pedestrian or... boatestrian.
17:22:20 <fizzie> I'm sure they could whip up a streetview gondola.
17:23:46 <kallisti> "boatestrian" -- Phantom_Hoover, 2012
17:26:18 <itidus21> humans are the only species stupid enough to live on the surface of the water
17:26:27 <kallisti> lol?
17:26:33 <kallisti> are you serious?
17:27:17 <itidus21> probably not
17:27:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Well TbH it's not a common strategy for anything motile
17:28:03 <kallisti> I suppose it would depend on what you mean by "surface of the water." I included aquatic lifeform that lives near the surface of the ocean.
17:28:06 <Phantom_Hoover> The Portugese Man o' War is the only one I can think of offhand.
17:29:00 <itidus21> i don't know exactly what i mean, i was basing the comment on the word boatestrian
17:29:20 <Phantom_Hoover> I doubt that's what itidus21 meant, considering that most well-known oceanic species live in the upper part of the ocean.
17:29:26 <kallisti> many species of insects can walk across water. There's also a reptile I believe.
17:29:52 <itidus21> i imagined pedestrian - ped.. + boat..
17:29:58 <itidus21> and imagined an animal with a hull
17:30:12 <itidus21> and thought.. well if it was a fish it would be more like a submarine
17:30:52 <itidus21> and that an animal which functioned like a boat would be quite absurd
17:32:23 <fizzie> The lizard is kind of a different case since it just runs across pretty fast and can't stay in place, it's too big for the surface tension trick.
17:32:39 <kallisti> right
17:33:06 <itidus21> the boat is one of the few vehicles which doesn't have a close animal counterpart
17:33:17 <kallisti> pretty sure beavers also live on the surface of water in the same way that humans can (via artificial constructions)
17:33:42 <itidus21> hmm
17:33:53 <itidus21> i think in general it's against nature for an animal to be a boat
17:34:00 <itidus21> i don't know why
17:34:04 <kallisti> `addquote
17:34:08 <kallisti> help how do.
17:34:14 <HackEgo> No output.
17:34:36 <kallisti> `addquote <itidus21> i think in general it's against nature for an animal to be a boat
17:34:40 <HackEgo> 856) <itidus21> i think in general it's against nature for an animal to be a boat
17:34:41 <fizzie> Some birds make floating nests, that's pretty close to a houseboat.
17:34:46 <fizzie> Grebes, for example.
17:35:09 <itidus21> noah understood this
17:35:46 <kallisti> I feel like that statement deserves an automatic kickban.
17:36:38 * kallisti should perhaps not have ops.
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17:36:48 <fizzie> Oh, and Jacanas build nests on floating vegetation. They have ridiculous feet: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fd/Irediparra_gallinacea1.jpg
17:37:09 <Phantom_Hoover> kallisti, although he didn't understand inbreeding.
17:37:24 <itidus21> ok.. yeah i took it too far
17:38:29 <itidus21> i don't want to make it worse
17:43:07 <itidus21> i guess polar bears live on water
17:43:54 <kallisti> itidus21: what about like underground streams, maaan?
17:44:00 <kallisti> aren't we all living on water?
17:45:45 <olsner> polar bears live on seals
17:55:56 <itidus21> basically i was envisioning something like hedonismbot from futurama in the way he is always sitting down
17:57:09 <olsner> fizzie: but the bird is not the boat then, it's just living on it
17:57:28 <olsner> but whales should count as u-boats
17:57:30 <kallisti> we were never originally talking about boats
17:57:35 <kallisti> that's just itidus21 for you.
17:58:31 <kallisti> or rather, we were never talking about animals that are boats.
17:58:36 <olsner> well, *originally*, I suppose we were talking about esoteric programming languages
17:58:38 <olsner> but I can't remember when that was
17:58:41 <kallisti> it was "animal that lives on the surface of the water"
17:59:03 <itidus21> another thing about water is i don't think animals often mess with the water except beavers
17:59:04 <olsner> nevertheless, I think we should respect the rights of whales to be boats
17:59:06 <kallisti> not "animal that is boat also noah herp derp"
17:59:43 <itidus21> well i got that from ped = foot
18:00:18 <itidus21> and.. my obscure logic was.. something which is like a pedestrian except it doesn't have feet
18:01:06 <olsner> I guess equestrian is when you have horses for feet
18:01:35 <kallisti> clearly
18:03:01 <fizzie> olsner: A house is not a motel.
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18:03:40 <fizzie> oerjan: Are you a boat?
18:03:49 <olsner> fizzie: Is it a boat then?
18:03:52 <kallisti> fizzie: but can a motel be a boat?
18:03:57 <oerjan> WROOM
18:04:00 <olsner> can oerjan be a boat?
18:04:06 <kallisti> have we considered the possibility of motels for feet?
18:04:07 <fizzie> kallisti: I don't see why not.
18:04:30 <kallisti> also: vending machines
18:04:48 <kallisti> I feel as though Nabisco understands that it is unnatural for animals to be vending machines.
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18:05:12 <fizzie> In the future, when we've all been cyborgified, there will be vending machines for feet.
18:05:24 <kallisti> oerjan: also: kickban itidus21 so he can stop ruining this channel.
18:05:27 <kallisti> thanks.
18:05:39 <kallisti> I want to idle in peace.
18:06:01 <olsner> and everyone will be their own house, and with inflatable cyborg implants everyone can also be a boat
18:07:15 <kallisti> so has anyone ever considered: static structural typing with a prototype OO system.
18:07:28 <kallisti> with immutable objects
18:08:39 <kallisti> so since objects are immutable, you don't explicitly copy objects. instead you explicitly extend them with new fields.
18:09:36 <kallisti> and types are denoted by structure. as in: {x : Int, y : Double} is the type for a structure with those fields and types.
18:09:54 <kallisti> does this exist? is there a problem with this? etc
18:12:25 <kallisti> recursive types could be a problem.
18:12:39 <kallisti> without nominal typing of some kind.
18:14:29 <olsner> it sounds like something that should've been done, but not sure about the immutable objects part
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18:15:23 <kallisti> most prototype OO systems are dyanamically typed, but I don't see any reason for this to be the case, since it more or less mirrors structural typing. structural typing is like the duck typing of static typing.
18:15:38 <olsner> iirc these modern JS engines try to infer type information based on structure, but everything is mutable there so they'll have to like change the type of an object on the fly
18:16:32 * kallisti is interested in some of the Haskell record improvement proposals, which heavily resemble structural types.
18:16:46 <kallisti> so essentially you'd have a curly bracket syntax at the type level that's syntax sugar for a bunch of typeclass constraints.
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18:20:20 <itidus21> this is probably off topic, but is {x : Int, y : Double} equivalent to {y : Double, x : Int}
18:20:21 <kallisti> I don't see how recursive types could work with a structural type system like this though. if you have an operation that essentially combines 2 records with static type information, then it's not clear how recursive types would be altered by this.
18:20:33 <kallisti> itidus21: yes
18:20:51 <kallisti> so there would need to be a nominal type system as well. using ADTs.
18:21:54 <kallisti> unless there's a way to sanely prototype something with a static recursive type.
18:22:36 <kallisti> in other words:
18:24:08 <kallisti> type Foo = {x : Int, y : Double, z : Foo }; x = {x = 2, y = 2.5, z = x} + {a = "hello"}
18:24:12 <kallisti> what is the type of x?
18:24:20 <olsner> oh, saw the original narm scene just now ... it really was narm
18:26:07 <kallisti> actually nevermind I guess that resolves itself. also that example only really makes sense with lazy evaluation
18:28:43 <kallisti> (oh, also, it should be pointed out that record types have subtypes. {x : Int, y : Double} is a subtype of {x : Int}
18:28:46 <kallisti> )
18:30:54 <itidus21> my thoughts have turned to a variable which can refuse to indicate it's type or value until it's ready
18:31:45 <itidus21> which would basically mean try-catch blocks around assignments
18:32:36 <itidus21> maybe a can't evaluate this operator
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18:43:49 <zzo38> Isn't it somewhat obvious that atriq is Taneb? The next line after that one also says so!
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18:47:28 <fizzie> Oh, atriq is Taneb?
18:47:31 <fizzie> I had not realized.
18:49:20 <zzo38> fizzie: Why? It says so not only in the topic message but also in the line that says who changed the topic message.
18:49:51 <fizzie> I don't pay all that much attention to the topic.
18:51:54 <zzo38> Well, you can also see it with every message received from atriq and with WHOIS and NS INFO as well.
18:52:05 <zzo38> (NS INFO confirms for sure)
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18:52:39 <kallisti> http://linuxforniggers.us/
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19:00:48 <kmc> zzo38: does your IRC client display the username and hostname on every PRIVMSG?
19:00:53 -!- Zuu has joined.
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19:01:22 <kallisti> I wouldn't be surprised if zzo38 just used telnet as his IRC client.
19:01:37 <olsner> istr that he did
19:03:40 <zzo38> kmc: Yes it does, and it is displayed in colors, too.
19:03:44 <mroman> hopefully his keyboard is a typewriter with a parallel port
19:04:30 <mroman> and his display is a needle printer connected to a lpt port.
19:04:35 <mroman> So everything works out for the best.
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19:05:29 <zzo38> Actually I am currently using an ordinary computer
19:05:37 <mroman> lame.
19:06:42 <zzo38> Yes, I know.
19:09:36 <mroman> Good.
19:15:23 <kmc> his printer is a mirror galvinometer
19:18:14 <kmc> today i rode the Spårakoff
19:18:18 <kmc> the pub tram in Helsinki
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19:26:26 <zzo38> Do they care if the line endings of a C code are CRLF on a UNIX system?
19:26:52 <nortti> gcc doesn't seem to
19:28:47 <zzo38> Do other GNU-compatible C compilers care?
19:29:11 <nortti> no idea
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19:36:19 <fizzie> kmc: Where are you staying in the sin city of hel?
19:39:21 <kmc> vallila
19:39:52 <kmc> leaving tomorrow morning though
19:40:16 <olsner> vanilla?
19:40:30 <kmc> more or less
19:41:07 <fizzie> olsner: From http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/valli
19:41:53 <olsner> hmm, that's very similar to http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/vall#Swedish
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19:42:44 <fizzie> Someone I knew lived in Puu-Vallila, the area of oldish (by Finnish standards; early 1900s) wooden houses in there.
19:43:41 <lexande> fizzie: confused by the name; i would expect names derived from "dike"
19:43:47 <lexande> or "embankment" to be near the water?
19:44:00 <lexande> whereas we are relatively far from the water by helsinki standards
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19:45:09 <olsner> think "wall"
19:45:13 <fizzie> lexande: It does mean an earthen wall-like structure too.
19:45:44 <fizzie> Or I suppose by extension maybe stone walls too.
19:46:14 <fizzie> Not really interior walls, though. The kind of things you'd have around a fortress.
19:47:01 <fizzie> Also the inner border of a pool/billiards table as a special case.
19:47:24 <olsner> are those walls in english?
19:48:18 <fizzie> olsner: Vallila's Swedish name is Vallgård, incidentally.
19:48:26 <lexande> i think those are "bumpers" in english
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19:49:54 <olsner> hmm: Cushions (also sometimes called "rail cushions", "cushion rubber", or rarely "bumpers") are located on the inner sides of a table's wooden rails.
19:50:49 <fizzie> And "vallihauta" (lit. "<valli>grave") is a moat.
19:51:11 <atriq> Is valli- Finnish for -irth?
19:51:35 <fizzie> I don't know what -irth is.
19:51:55 <fizzie> We discussed what valli is right before you joined, though.
19:52:00 <atriq> Oh, okay
19:52:03 <atriq> I had fun today
19:52:05 <Phantom_Hoover> It's the -irth form, duh.
19:52:13 <olsner> the irthative case
19:52:28 <Phantom_Hoover> I don't know when you started to understandirth -irth.
19:52:35 <fizzie> How irthitating.
19:52:51 <Phantom_Hoover> that makirth sense
19:54:00 <atriq> :(
20:00:39 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, wait, oko knew about -irth, didn't he teach it to you?
20:00:59 <fizzie> If so, I must have forgotten.
20:02:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Honestly fizzie when did you knowirth basic English grammar.
20:05:44 <atriq> Was it when I greetirth?
20:06:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Obviously fizzie enjoyirth the channel after that.
20:10:37 <lexande> it was -irth all along
20:10:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Please referencirth, lexande.
20:23:47 -!- monqy has joined.
20:24:34 <Phantom_Hoover> monqirth!
20:25:27 <olsner> comirth the greetirther
20:26:01 <monqy> hi
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21:02:44 <NihilistDandy> Welcome to -irth
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21:14:42 <Phantom_Hoover> NihilistDandy, wait you're still around???
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22:52:15 <zzo38> I am going to try to fight BUZZSAW MCGRAW again
22:55:32 <zzo38> I won.
22:55:40 <Phantom__Hoover> hooray!
22:56:04 <zzo38> On 08-15-2012: ZZO38 defeated BUZZSAW MCGRAW in a ROUND 2 TKO! After the Fight, ZZO38 would not talk to the PRESS:
22:56:55 <Gregor> I HAVE A KITTY :3
22:58:06 <Phantom__Hoover> Gregor, we know. Shut up about it.
22:58:09 <zzo38> Now I have to fight HAYMAKER MARRIS
22:58:43 <Gregor> Phantom__Hoover: But… she's sleeping in my lap and she's fuzzy :(
22:59:05 <Phantom__Hoover> Yes but you're turning the channel into reddit dammit.
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23:05:22 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Ragaraja
23:05:26 <elliott> what is this
23:05:34 <elliott> someone tell me what to do with it :P
23:05:50 <monqy> nsqx memories
23:06:51 <Gregor> Wow.
23:07:04 <Gregor> IS IT TURING-COMPLETE?
23:07:24 <Gregor> <zzo38> Do they care if the line endings of a C code are CRLF on a UNIX system? // no conforming C compiler cares.
23:07:41 <Gregor> Wow, that was a long time ago X-D
23:07:45 <zzo38> Gregor: Thank you for telling me.
23:08:32 <zzo38> So I suppose I only need to fix the shell script to compile
23:09:20 <Gregor> No conforming implementation of Unix will accept shell scripts with CRLF, but I believe that's only because of the #! line.
23:09:34 <Gregor> The correct behavior with #!/bin/sh\r\n is to run in an interpreter with the filename /bin/sh\r
23:09:46 <zzo38> Yes I know that.
23:10:11 <ion> How about if you want to run an interpreter with the filename /bin/foo\n? :-(
23:10:23 <zzo38> Maybe they should make a file with that name which passes the script to dos2unix and then run it in the ordinary shell.
23:10:27 <Gregor> ion: Not with a #! line :)
23:10:50 <Gregor> zzo38: Maybe you shouldn't use DOS line endings…
23:10:54 <ion> I want my money back.
23:11:09 <zzo38> ion: Money back for what?
23:11:23 <ion> Unix
23:12:56 <zzo38> Since this is the final round and I am already six points ahead, I am guessing that my best chance to win is just to avoid getting knocked out.
23:13:10 <zzo38> Even if I lose some points for doing so.
23:13:28 <zzo38> Is that how boxing is supposed to work?
23:13:58 <ion> I only know about beatboxing.
23:20:57 <soundnfury> ion: you could use env?
23:21:29 <zzo38> "His own blood cells were killing him.-EMH_" what letter do you think should go in place of "_"?
23:21:48 <soundnfury> #!/usr/bin/env "/bin/foo\n"
23:22:37 <zzo38> Choose from: F J P Q U V X Y Z
23:24:12 <zzo38> P
23:25:05 <Phantom__Hoover> elliott, the guy who made that has added two fucking BF derivatives today alone.
23:25:41 <Phantom__Hoover> Make me a sysop, just this once.
23:26:01 <elliott> soundnfury: that does not work
23:26:16 <elliott> at least unless I have completely forgotten how shebang parsing works
23:29:03 <soundnfury> elliott: huh?
23:29:10 <soundnfury> maybe I just don't know how env works
23:29:25 <elliott> maybe you just don't know how #! works
23:29:37 <elliott> in particular, that passes /usr/bin/env the argument:
23:29:53 <elliott> {'"', '/', 'b', 'i', 'n', '/', 'f', 'o', 'o', '\\', 'n', '"'}
23:29:56 <elliott> uh, and a 0 on the end
23:30:08 <elliott> about 80% sure of this
23:30:09 <soundnfury> hmm.
23:30:17 <elliott> it definitely does _not_ go through the shell
23:30:37 <soundnfury> yes, my mind was assuming without noticing that it went through the shell and of course it doesn't
23:31:04 <ion> elliott: Indeed. And env doesn’t handle that kind of a parameter in any special way either.
23:31:05 <soundnfury> dammit there must be some way to do it
23:32:30 <ion> #!/bin/sh
23:32:36 <ion> exec "/bin/foo
23:32:40 <ion> " "$@"
23:32:47 <ion> and have /bin/foo\n ignore that part. :-P
23:33:18 <ion> whoops. "$0" before "$@"
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23:54:44 <zzo38> I played Dungeons&Dragons with no change of equipment during this session.
23:55:32 <zzo38> None of our inventory got added or removed.
23:56:28 * Sgeo has worked for the government, muahaha
23:56:35 <zzo38> OK
23:57:02 <zzo38> Now I have to figure out exactly what kind of secret government work you have done simply by pure logic and reasoning, rather than by asking.
23:58:38 <elliott> Sgeo: ?
23:59:46 <Sgeo> elliott, I will admit that the muahaha was silly, but I have worked for the government.
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