←2012-09-10 2012-09-11 2012-09-12→ ↑2012 ↑all
00:01:36 <shachaf> http://habrahabr.ru/post/151203/
00:01:40 <shachaf> Crazy people.
00:03:30 <kmc> shachaf: this is a gif which is also a wav?
00:03:58 <shachaf> Yes.
00:04:20 <shachaf> They used my GIF player thing for it. It almost makes me want to make it not so dreadfully inefficient.
00:05:07 <kmc> гиф
00:05:11 <kmc> you wrote jsgif?
00:05:23 <shachaf> Yes.
00:05:50 <kmc> cool
00:05:53 <kmc> what for?
00:06:35 <shachaf> I was annoyed at not being able to step frame-by-frame through animations.
00:07:04 <shachaf> I think it was some of the sorting algorithm animations on Wikipedia.
00:07:13 <shachaf> Then I decided to do something entirely client-side.
00:12:29 <kmc> huh, I downloaded 152 GB last night
00:12:34 <kmc> i hope my ISP is ok with that
00:13:40 <itidus21> oh yeah i know how that is..
00:14:08 <shachaf> That's a lot of GBs.
00:14:23 <itidus21> some nights you get so web-drunk that 152gb just gets downloaded before you know it
00:14:58 <kmc> also i have about 108 GB of DVDs i want to rip, and no space for them
00:17:07 <itidus21> i guess that 152gb is feasible
00:17:35 <Phantom_Hoover> it was all port hahaha
00:17:37 <Phantom_Hoover> uh
00:18:41 <kmc> it took about 16.5 hours
00:19:17 <itidus21> i suppose that downloading could be fun if you had no reason to stop
00:20:09 <itidus21> who am i kidding
00:20:52 <kmc> i don't know how to rip DVDs :/
00:21:23 <kmc> i just want to decrypt the VOBs and leave them intact otherwise; it looks like vobcopy can do this
00:21:34 * kmc cyber-criminal
00:22:01 <Jafet> Fair abuse
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00:23:20 <itidus21> although the laws may be clear on these matters, i think maybe new words are needed to help discriminate the various types of property trading now possible in digital age
00:25:47 <shachaf> kmc: apt-get install dvdbackup
00:25:51 <shachaf> $ dvdbackup -M
00:25:58 <shachaf> (If you have libdvdcss.)
00:26:02 * shachaf >>= undefined
00:26:30 <Jafet> That reminds me, I need to get vlc from debian-multimedia
00:26:33 <Jafet> And ffmpeg
00:27:53 <kmc> shachaf: cool
00:28:47 <itidus21> questions like: did you pay? were you expected to pay? is there a physical embodiment? is it computer data? do they know you took it? did they expect you not to take it? does the person who traded it away still have it?
00:29:40 <itidus21> words like buy and download simply don't represent all these ideas very unambiguously
00:34:02 * kmc consumes a delicious butter-sugar-chocolate food disc
00:35:35 <oerjan> would you like a defibrillator with that?
00:35:38 <Jafet> You gluttonous consumer
00:39:04 <oerjan> gluteus maximus
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00:48:27 <kmc> yeah i ate one cookie, i'm gonna die of a heart attack for sure
00:50:30 <oerjan> if you don't die of a heart atteck, it wasn't delicious enough!
00:52:09 <oerjan> *a
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01:07:28 <kmc> do common UNIX-like systems all support invoking the "default" C compiler as cc?
01:11:04 <Jafet> The default compiler may be cc, but your default compiler is always gcc.
01:11:43 <kmc> even on recent OS X? what about solaris?
01:11:53 <kmc> anyway i'm asking "can i write cc in a shell script and have it dtrt"
01:11:56 <Jafet> Well, I have no idea
01:12:15 <Jafet> Why not use CC anyway
01:12:40 <kmc> $CC isn't typically set in the shell
01:12:44 <kmc> shell, not makefile
01:12:52 <kmc> perhaps bonghits will fix my build script
01:13:28 <Jafet> Yeah, so set it at the top
01:14:00 <kmc> that doesn't get me anything
01:14:58 <Jafet> It's easier to fix then
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01:18:08 <kmc> ah yes but i'm only invoking cc once in this script
01:18:24 <oerjan> http://www.gsp.com/cgi-bin/man.cgi?section=1&topic=c89 says there should be one named c89
01:18:42 <oerjan> in posix
01:19:35 <Jafet> I forgot about posix
01:19:43 <kmc> fun
01:19:55 <Jafet> cygwin does not provide c89.
01:20:09 <Jafet> If you give a shit
01:20:10 <oerjan> even funner
01:20:26 <pikhq> oerjan: That tool does not exist in current POSIX, only older versions of POSIX.
01:20:28 <oerjan> the cc link in the above redirects to gcc fwiw
01:20:34 <pikhq> POSIX 2008 specifies c99 however.
01:20:38 <oerjan> pikhq: sheesh. so what ... ok
01:20:41 <kmc> Jafet: does it provide cc?
01:20:53 <Jafet> Yes
01:20:56 <kmc> do the POSIX c89 / c99 also have standard command-line syntax?
01:21:09 <Jafet> See above
01:21:11 <pikhq> kmc: Yes.
01:21:17 <pikhq> kmc: They function as you expect.
01:21:26 <pikhq> It does not provide cc I don't think.
01:21:56 <pikhq> However, real-world UNIX-like systems generally have cc.
01:22:08 <pikhq> ${CC:=cc} would be the right thing.
01:22:15 <pikhq> Or ${CC:=c99} if you mean C99.
01:22:21 <Jafet> cc is usually assumed to be gcc, or be a compiler that works like gcc
01:22:25 <Jafet> Like clang
01:22:37 <pikhq> (${CC:=cc} evaluates to CC, or cc if CC is unset, and if CC is unset, sets CC to cc.)
01:23:33 <kmc> yeah
01:23:47 <kmc> i'll use ${CC:-cc}
01:23:54 <pikhq> Seems reasonable.
01:24:06 <pikhq> Worst-case scenario someone has to tell it the compiler.
01:25:43 <Jafet> Or you can do what configure scripts do
01:25:52 <Jafet> "Checking for usable C compiler..."
01:26:15 <Jafet> I don't even know why configure scripts do that
01:32:30 <kmc> to fail earlier, maybe
01:39:24 <pikhq> Jafet: It's dain bramage.
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01:55:26 <itidus21> ok heres a strange question
01:55:50 <itidus21> i am monolingual.
01:56:20 <itidus21> many people are bilingual.
01:56:59 <itidus21> occasioanlly some people know quite a lot of languages and known as polyglots
01:57:10 <Phantom_Hoover> riiiiiight
01:57:51 <itidus21> according to WP, Nikola Tesla could speak Serbian, Czech, English, French, German, Hungarian, Italian, and Latin.
01:58:14 <itidus21> Dr Jos Rizal (18611896), could speak 22 languages.
01:58:55 <pikhq> Hmm, a whole 4 language families on Tesla.
01:59:26 <itidus21> now the thought i have is, are there computer-programmer equivalents to this Dr Jose Rizal
01:59:44 <pikhq> What, you mean programmers that know 22 languages?
01:59:47 <pikhq> Uh, trivially.
02:00:02 <itidus21> whereby, it is not simply that they have read 22 sams programming books
02:00:17 <pikhq> ... Again, trivially.
02:00:19 <itidus21> but they have some advanced capacity
02:00:25 <itidus21> ya.. ur right
02:00:28 <itidus21> trivially
02:00:34 <pikhq> I think Gregor's nearing that point in programming languages *implemented*.
02:00:44 <pikhq> Gregor: Oy, how many programming languages have you done?
02:00:58 <pikhq> Count esolangs, those were interesting and nontrivial.
02:01:02 <Jafet> Programming languages are mostly dialects of each other
02:02:33 <itidus21> apparently daniel tammet learned icelandic in a week
02:02:53 <pikhq> From what I understand, he learned basic icelandic in a week.
02:03:02 <Jafet> Sam's Learn Icelandic in 7 Days
02:03:14 <itidus21> which is probably not that difficult eh :P media exaggerations?
02:03:21 <pikhq> Which TBH is about the rate anyone could learn basic bits in nearly any language.
02:03:22 <itidus21> anything for a story
02:03:39 <pikhq> Except maybe ones with really hard (for them) phonemes...
02:05:54 <itidus21> i guess what i am pondering is whether programming is something you can be good at to such a degree that they make a film like rainman about you
02:06:08 <kmc> being good at programing != knowing a lot of programming languages
02:06:22 <kmc> amazing how common this confusion is
02:06:24 <itidus21> kmc: well thats fair enough. i won't dispite that
02:06:29 <itidus21> ^dispute
02:06:32 <kmc> in truth, which programming language you use just doesn't matter much
02:06:32 <pikhq> And Rainman was not exactly a documentary. :)
02:06:46 <itidus21> hnn
02:07:11 <pikhq> But if you want someone like that, uh...
02:07:14 <pikhq> Fabrice Bellard.
02:07:19 <pikhq> Need I say more.
02:09:43 <kmc> when programmers get famous in popular (non-programmer) culture, it's not typically for being extraordinarily good at programming
02:10:13 <kmc> usually they made something boring and derivative which became extremely popular
02:10:14 <itidus21> so i think they don't have a name for what fabrice has done
02:10:23 <kmc> either through luck or through clever but non-programming-related decisions
02:10:29 <kmc> mark zuckerberg, linus torvalds, bill gates
02:10:39 <itidus21> Categories:
02:10:40 <itidus21> 1972 births
02:10:40 <itidus21> Living people
02:10:40 <itidus21> cole Polytechnique alumni
02:10:40 <itidus21> French computer programmers
02:10:40 <itidus21> People from Grenoble
02:10:42 <itidus21> French computer scientists
02:10:44 <itidus21> oops... newlines
02:10:50 <kmc> these people might be excellent programmers (i've heard gates in particular is), but that's not actually why they're famous
02:12:21 <itidus21> it seems one article title labeled him "super-productive programmer" but i sure hope that title doesn't become common
02:13:00 <Jafet> @wn prolific
02:13:00 <lambdabot> *** "prolific" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
02:13:00 <lambdabot> prolific
02:13:00 <lambdabot> adj 1: intellectually productive; "a prolific writer"; "a fecund
02:13:01 <lambdabot> imagination" [syn: {fecund}, {fertile}, {prolific}]
02:13:01 <lambdabot> 2: bearing in abundance especially offspring; "flying foxes are
02:13:02 <lambdabot> extremely prolific"; "a prolific pear tree" [syn: {prolific},
02:13:04 <lambdabot> {fertile}]
02:15:42 <pikhq> kmc: I name Bellard as it in particular just because any *one* project of his would be a moderately impressive feat.
02:16:00 <pikhq> Or insanely impressive...
02:16:04 <pikhq> qemu, for instance.
02:16:20 <pikhq> Which is strictly speaking an overgrown side project of tcc.
02:16:26 * shachaf
02:16:30 <shachaf> kmc: Did it work?
02:16:45 <Jafet> Which was an overgrown side project of an ioccc entry
02:17:12 <pikhq> (qemu grew out of Bellard's attempts to write a somewhat more generic backend scheme for tcc... He realised that if he just stuck a disassembler on the front of it he'd have an emulator, and tada.)
02:19:57 <kmc> pikhq: yeah
02:20:09 <kmc> shachaf: did what work?
02:20:23 <shachaf> The DVD thing.
02:20:31 <kmc> i don't have the DVDs yet
02:20:34 <kmc> they are arriving tomorrow
02:20:57 <kmc> The Wire: The Complete Series on 23 DVDs
02:21:46 <itidus21> 23dvds... thats quite a signifigant number of dvds
02:22:29 <pikhq> Or 4 Blurays.
02:22:30 <kmc> that is possibly the most profound thing i have ever heard in my life
02:22:57 <kmc> they don't have it on blu-ray
02:23:08 <kmc> but i can get _Man on Wire_ on blu-ray which is also good
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02:27:39 <kmc> i don't know if these are DVD-5 but it is plausible
02:27:43 <kmc> it's about 61 hours of video
02:29:39 <shachaf> DVDV
02:30:08 <shachaf> kmc: Is this related to the hundreds of GBs you downloaded recently?
02:31:35 <kmc> nope
02:31:56 <kmc> "is that like DVDA"
02:34:11 * kmc is slowly installing perl and git on a FreeBSD EC2 micro instance
02:34:18 <kmc> this is gentoo before gentoo was a thing
02:34:41 <kmc> shachaf: i spent yesterday pimping my bash prompt, what else should i add?
02:35:35 <shachaf> kmc: Last command exit status indicator?
02:36:34 <kmc> i have that,
02:36:45 <kmc> the usual $ turns into a red '!' if the last command failed
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02:37:14 <kmc> it also displays the hostname and the working directory (with custom abbreviations)
02:37:23 <kmc> and the latter is used as the tmux / screen window name
02:38:48 <shachaf> Sounds like a productive day.
02:39:00 * shachaf 's prompt is '\u@\h:\w\$ '
02:39:02 <shachaf> Or so.
02:40:38 <kmc> maybe i should switch to zsh, it has better hooks for fancy stuff
02:41:03 <shachaf> Maybe I should too.
02:41:09 <shachaf> I've tried a couple times but it's such a hassle.
02:41:34 <kmc> how so
02:42:05 <shachaf> I don't remember.
02:42:10 <shachaf> Things don't work right.
02:42:19 * shachaf = old and set in ways. :-(
02:42:40 <kmc> yeah, before yesterday i was using a prompt i had stole from i think Red Hat 6.x
02:42:50 <kmc> probably used that prompt for 10 years
02:42:59 <Jafet> PROMPT="%(?..%B%F{red}[%?]%f%b) %B%F{blue}$USER@%2m%f%b:%B%2c%b %F{magenta}%*%f%# "
02:43:02 <kmc> wait no i used some wacky gentoo prompt for a while
02:43:32 <shachaf> Oh, those had fancy colours.
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02:47:38 <Jafet> Obligatory link to http://eseth.org/2009/nethack-term.html
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03:53:16 <itidus21> http://penny-arcade.com/comic/2012/08/06 this somehow feels cogent
04:05:41 <itidus21> much much less funny when i realize that zyngis is a reference to zynga, and that zynga's logo is a dog
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05:22:24 <kmc> gah stupid freebsd, this is taking forever and it's not even funrolling my loops
05:23:27 <kmc> Content-type: application/octet-stream
05:23:30 <kmc> Content-type: dunno/lol
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05:37:51 <kmc> huh wow http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/09/10/aig-stock-sale-vindicates-treasury-bailout.html
06:35:23 <zzo38> I do not like this word "metric ton"; it should not be called a "ton", a "tonne", or a "metric ton"; it should be called a "megagram", isn't it?
06:36:23 <shachaf> kilokilogram
06:37:43 <pikhq> I prefer megagram.
06:38:02 <pikhq> Same number of syllables, but much more systematic.
06:38:50 <pikhq> Also, whoever put US traditional units in my most recent chem assignment should be shot.
06:38:56 <shachaf> My megagramma has a megagramo' stuff in her system attic.
06:39:22 <pikhq> Science = fuck you, I want sane units.
06:39:23 <Sgeo> I thought "metric ton" was a figure of speech
06:39:31 <pikhq> Sgeo: No, it's a megagram.
06:40:02 <pikhq> It's a non-SI unit accepted for use with SI.
06:40:04 <pikhq> Because fuck you.
06:40:44 <shachaf> A metric tone us one defined using decibels instead of cents.
06:42:03 <zzo38> How is that? I don't think that works.
06:42:22 <shachaf> 1 dB ~= 400 cents?
06:42:54 <zzo38> O, is that how it works?
06:48:19 <fizzie> Where does that come from?
06:50:17 <shachaf> Cents are pretty metric already, actually.
06:50:24 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cent_(music)
06:51:00 <shachaf> fizzie: It's very simple, really.
06:51:11 <shachaf> An octave is called an octave because it's divided into 12 parts.
06:51:27 <fizzie> Yes, the link was enough.
06:51:34 <shachaf> Those parts are called semitones.
06:51:42 <shachaf> Seven semitones make a fifth, and five semitones make a fourth.
06:51:57 <shachaf> (A perfect fifth and a perfect fourth, that is.)
06:52:02 <fizzie> That certainly makes sense.
06:52:06 <zzo38> s/fifth/equal-tempered perfect fifth/
06:52:25 <shachaf> zzo38: OK, fine.
06:52:45 <shachaf> A perfect fifth is a factor of 3/2, but they approximate it by 2^(7/12)
06:53:07 <zzo38> Well, a just perfect fifth is 3/2. An equal-tempered perfect fifth is 2^(7/12).
06:53:29 <fizzie> Does anyone ever use decibels for ratios of frequencies?
06:53:52 <shachaf> I don't know.
06:53:54 <zzo38> Is it possible to use decibels for ratios of frequencies?
06:54:14 <shachaf> I doubt anyone ever uses cents for anything but ratios of frequencies.
06:54:27 <shachaf> Despite the fact that 2 is a much more sensible base for your logarithm than 10!
06:54:40 <shachaf> It's much more natural, when you're dealing with integers.
06:55:50 <fizzie> Apparently people use "dB-Hz" for measuring bandwidth; it's relative to 1 Hz.
06:56:45 <fizzie> 30 dB-Hz is a kilohertz.
06:57:12 <fizzie> Though there's no citation for this, so maybe someone just invented it for Wikipedia.
07:00:15 <pikhq> Meh, screw the decibel. Base 10 log is silly.
07:00:29 <pikhq> ln and lb por favor
07:01:00 <shachaf> Don't forget to divide by 12.
07:01:45 <zzo38> O, now I can see how dB-Hz can be used like that. But I have never heard of it before.
07:02:05 <itidus21> x = "(" + x + ")/12"
07:04:25 <itidus21> more fun is multiplication by 10
07:04:48 <itidus21> x = x + "0"
07:05:01 <itidus21> but i know it won't always work
07:06:51 <itidus21> x = "5.0" ...
07:20:40 <zzo38> If you know they are integers, it could be used, such as a shell script dd count=`wc -l`0 ...
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08:13:36 <itidus21> ...
08:14:50 <itidus21> i disagree with reason 2 in Joel's software link, "They create to many exit points in a function", you still have just as many exit points if not more with C only code not using exceptions
08:22:15 <soundnfury> well, Joel exists purely for the purpose of being disagreed with
08:22:44 <shachaf> soundnfury: You should have a nick with numbers in it.
08:22:59 <soundnfury> why? Just because everyone else does?
08:23:15 * soundnfury can't change his nick
08:23:47 <soundnfury> have to keep it the same as my NAO username
08:24:00 <soundnfury> so's I get alerted when Rodney reports my deaths
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09:33:27 <soundnfury> wow... apparently someone at the /New Yorker/ knows about diareses ("reënter")
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09:54:22 <itidus21> hm... tidus was registered at least
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10:44:45 <shachaf> __ ___
11:13:56 <itidus21> i was watching a show this morning
11:14:51 <itidus21> "i live in america" "i thought you lived in new york" "new york is in america"
11:29:46 <Arc_Koen> itidus21: I'm pretty sure you're wrong, I have a map of the United Kingdom here and there's a city named York... Sur New York must be in the uk too
11:32:03 <itidus21> it was some old show with zsa zsa gabor
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12:17:22 <Phantom_Hoover> New York is the name for the new construction in York made in the late 1700s.
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15:01:58 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh my god viddler have started charging for any account using over 2GB of bandwidth per month.
15:02:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Way to commit financial suicide, guys.
15:05:31 <kmc> huh?
15:07:44 <Phantom_Hoover> If more than 2GB of bandwidth is spent watching your videos, they email you saying you have to pay up or they'll delete the account.
15:08:46 <kmc> and you think everyone will just leave viddler?
15:08:47 <Lumpio-> But 2GB is nothing
15:10:33 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc, the charge is $50/month for 200GB of bandwidth.
15:11:46 <Phantom_Hoover> And that was being asked of a fairly small Let's Play outfit.
15:13:05 <Phantom_Hoover> So whilst holding customers who don't have backups to ransom might work, something tells me it's not going to work for long.
15:19:18 <Arc_Koen> Phantom_Hoover: so first people pay 50$ for 200GB, and then suddenly they're told their 50$ cover only for the first 2GB, and the remaining 198GB have to be paid again?
15:19:44 <Phantom_Hoover> No, 2GB is just the threshold for a free account.
15:37:59 <pikhq> And the Youtube threshold is infinity.
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15:40:58 <atriq> @messages?
15:40:58 <lambdabot> atriq: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
15:41:01 <atriq> Wow
15:41:04 <atriq> I'm popular
15:41:06 <atriq> @messages
15:41:06 <lambdabot> Arc_Koen said 16h 48m 32s ago: "Brook... with the gimmick that the program can produce and immediately execute a potentially infinite length program written in Brook." I'm not sure what you mean -
15:41:07 <lambdabot> when I look at the instruction set I feel like it's basically Fueue, except the program and the data queue are separated. what am I missing?
15:41:07 <lambdabot> Arc_Koen said 16h 32m 1s ago: oh and I noticed the truth-machine fueue program from the truth-machine wiki page doesn't work. it first tries to print "-48", then (assuming the interpreter hasn't
15:41:07 <lambdabot> crashed already) turns into a cat (because the two main blocks are never unblocked, the ($ turns into [$], and the + never has two arguments
15:41:27 <Arc_Koen> turns out the two messages were from the same user, sorry :(
15:41:41 <atriq> Arc_Koen, Brook is a lot more like brainfuck with a different kind of loop
15:42:12 <atriq> And also, I never tested the truth-machine in Fueue
15:42:19 <atriq> Other than just writing it out
15:42:21 <Arc_Koen> yes but did you mean that brook could modify its own code?
15:42:25 <atriq> No
15:42:36 <atriq> It sort of emits a new program which is run first
15:42:48 <atriq> And has access to a different tape
15:42:57 <Arc_Koen> well I tested it with both my interpreters, the C one turned into a cat while the ocaml one raised Failure "char_of_int"
15:43:27 <Arc_Koen> so I looke dmore closely and noticed yoru program tried to print -48, and the blocks were never unblocked
15:43:40 <atriq> Ah, that's a problem
15:43:48 <atriq> I was probably asleep when I wrote it, heh
15:43:57 <atriq> Unlike what my user page says, I'm not a super human.
15:44:04 <atriq> I just provide an alternative male perspective.
15:44:26 <Arc_Koen> I think a truth-machine is quite hard to implement in fueue, because of the "one complete no-op rotation" you have to have in order to get input, and then this input alone is supposed to de-no-op the queue
15:44:54 <atriq> Hmm, yeah
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15:46:09 <Arc_Koen> and input are numeric values, which can only interfere with +, -, *, /, %, $, but none of those commands would deblock anything
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15:46:54 <Arc_Koen> also I was wondering: where does the "F" in fueue come from ?
15:47:08 <atriq> It stands for "functional"
15:48:16 <Arc_Koen> okay, makes sense
15:48:50 <Arc_Koen> well i'll try to look into Brook again but as someone pointed out on the talk page it's quite hard to understand :p
15:49:23 <atriq> It was designed to be tricky
15:49:28 <atriq> And hard to prove Turing-complete
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17:02:22 <fizzie> There was a keynote computer music guy from CMU today.
17:03:27 <fizzie> Some Roger B. Dannenberg guy, been doing Audacity apparently.
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18:01:29 <atriq> Heard this today: "I googled it on Amazon"
18:06:41 <impomatic> Does anyone here edit code on Android? I've installed a few code editors, just wondering which one you prefer to work with?
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18:07:10 <olsner> edit code on android? sounds incredibly painful
18:09:34 <impomatic> With a bluetooth keyboard?
18:10:20 <olsner> oh, with a real keyboard
18:10:44 <kmc> plenty of android devices have laptop-style keyboards
18:10:47 <kmc> e.g. eee pad transformer
18:10:55 <kmc> android runs on lots of different kinds of hardware
18:11:17 <kmc> in lithuania i rode a bus which had an android-based seat back entertainment system
18:11:25 <kmc> which was loaded with very obviously pirated music and movies
18:16:09 <impomatic> Has anyone tried one of those Laser projection keyboards?
18:18:03 <kmc> i have one; the bluetooth interface is proprietary
18:18:49 <kmc> some third party reverse engineered the protocol for the one i have, and they made a demo app but want you to pay money for actually using it
18:18:54 <kmc> and the performance in the demo app is shit
18:21:32 <olsner> in other words, happy reverse engineering to build your own?
18:22:06 <olsner> "it takes a while for changes to ripple through the timelines"
18:22:19 <olsner> eww, star trek is not supposed to be so timey wimey bally
18:23:27 <kmc> other models might have better interfgaces
18:23:51 <olsner> doctor who is at least overtly timey wimey
18:25:51 <olsner> err, and apparently they're going to be away from the enterprise while they're off time travelling, long enough to need an excuse ... can't they just return from the time they left?
18:25:56 <olsner> *to the time
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18:30:24 <olsner> oerjan: here, have some best practices: http://code.jonwagner.com/2012/09/11/best-practices-when-to-not-use-asynchronous-programming/
18:33:09 <impomatic> kmc: is that the celluon keyboard?
18:33:29 <kmc> the one i have? i don't think so, not sure
18:33:39 <kmc> i got it for free from someone who also couldn't get it to do anything useful ;P
18:33:45 <kmc> and it's sitting at the bottom of a box somewhere
18:33:55 <kmc> looks cool tho
18:34:43 <impomatic> Apparently one of them can be set as a virtual piano keyboard.
18:34:51 <oerjan> <atriq> Unlike what my user page says, I'm not a super human. <-- shocking
18:35:45 <oerjan> <Arc_Koen> I think a truth-machine is quite hard to implement in fueue, because of the "one complete no-op rotation" you have to have in order to get input, and then this input alone is supposed to de-no-op the queue
18:36:12 <oerjan> yeah i found out that would be awkward. although not so awkward that distinguishing _one_ character is impossible. hm...
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18:37:30 <oerjan> basically only $ is capable of doing nothing, then triggering on a single number appearing
18:38:09 <oerjan> after one round
18:43:28 <oerjan> olsner: OKAY THANKS
18:43:56 -!- variable has changed nick to constant.
18:46:00 <pikhq> http://www.toothycat.net/~hologram/Turing/HowItWorks.html YES!
18:46:04 <pikhq> Magic The Gathering is TC.
18:46:28 <olsner> sweet
18:46:31 <atriq> So are bathroom tiles, fwiw
18:46:53 <atriq> (Well, Wang Tiles are)
18:47:11 <kmc> hehe wang
18:47:22 <shachaf> kmc: How much of the keyboard thing is done in software?
18:47:27 <kmc> dunno
18:47:42 <oerjan> i think after that wolfram TM etc. brouhaha i think i'd reserve the word "universal" instead of TC for those bathroom tiles
18:48:05 <oerjan> things get fishy when there's infinite setup or finish
18:48:45 <oerjan> well i guess there's a TC decision problem in there
18:48:54 <atriq> It's not strictly speaking halting
18:49:50 <atriq> But there's a way of translating turing machines to sets of tiles that tile the plane and only repeat if the turing machine halts or something
18:50:58 <oerjan> hm they repeat? i thought they couldn't tile the plane at all then, but i never learned that bit of the proof
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18:51:12 <oerjan> if oklopol were here he could tell us
18:52:15 <atriq> I'm not advanced enough in the arcane arts of mathematics to understand it, most likely
18:52:23 <atriq> I officially learnt about groups today
18:55:09 <oerjan> yay!
18:55:34 * oerjan turns atriq upside down, then twists him leftwards, then mirrors him
18:56:00 * oerjan then dies as atriq explodes as antimatter
18:56:19 * atriq becomes PURE ENERGY
18:56:32 <atriq> This is not as awesome as it sounds at all
18:56:55 <oerjan> no rest anymore
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19:03:04 <atriq> I wonder if Pokemon cards are turing complete
19:06:42 <zzo38> I thought Magic: the Gathering is TC; now you told me for sure.
19:06:58 <zzo38> About Pokemon card, though, there is a limit to the number of cards so it might not be.
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19:13:15 <atriq> Yu-Gi-Oh?
19:17:14 <zzo38> I don't know that game well enough.
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19:27:18 <atriq> I don't think Sopio is
19:28:30 <atriq> Maybe you can use Junkyard Dave and get two queues like that, but then you'd need an infinite hand, which you can't have
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19:33:33 <olsner> so the MtG turing machine uses life counters (or whatever those numbers mean) to store cards' indexes in the queues, and pops the top card by hurting all cards by one and seeing what died
19:34:14 <hagb4rd> yes you'd need infinite credit. it would make it turing complete but on the other side it'd have some ruinous affect on inflation
19:35:57 <oerjan> atriq: Arc_Koen: plz test )$!![[)[~~~~()+1])])][[)[~H~+32])])][)~[0]]
19:37:09 <oerjan> well one of you at least
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19:40:07 * oerjan downloads the c interpreter
19:40:14 <atriq> Prints P for 0, Q for 1
19:40:25 <oerjan> hm
19:40:36 <oerjan> > ord <$> "01PQ"
19:40:37 <lambdabot> [48,49,80,81]
19:40:46 <oerjan> yep that's correct
19:41:01 <oerjan> and then halts without more input, right?
19:41:07 <atriq> Yes
19:41:33 <atriq> Yeah, converts capital letters to lower case
19:41:37 <atriq> One letter at a time
19:41:45 <oerjan> good, then to replace the ~H~+32 part
19:46:36 <Arc_Koen> hi
19:47:10 <oerjan> trying to get fueue input working
19:47:21 <oerjan> and fix the truth machine
19:47:24 <pikhq> olsner: Basically.
19:47:48 <pikhq> olsner: And lazily expands the queues.
19:48:20 <Arc_Koen> impressive
19:48:50 <olsner> yeah, I liked that, the most-alive card is one that expands the tape by spawning the appropriate other card when it dies
19:50:01 <Arc_Koen> oerjan: wait, the C interpreter is not the right version
19:50:32 <oerjan> oh. well it worked for this program.
19:51:30 <Arc_Koen> hmm I'm not sure actually
19:51:50 <Arc_Koen> I seem to remember that important changes had been made since that version but I can't remember which
19:52:03 <Arc_Koen> apparently it's already imperative instead of recursive
19:52:13 <Arc_Koen> if you meet any problems please elt me know
19:52:28 <oerjan> ok
19:54:55 <Arc_Koen> oh right, I think the main differences are the use of union types, and a memory leak fix
19:55:05 <Arc_Koen> which is particularly important for infinite loop
20:03:37 <Arc_Koen> oerjan: is the !! used to delay input?
20:04:16 <oerjan> it's used to fix the spot where the input will appear
20:04:42 <oerjan> by being the last thing to execute
20:05:14 <Arc_Koen> why not simply rotate the initial program to have the spot already at an extremity?
20:05:18 <oerjan> i guess ... right
20:08:46 <Arc_Koen> woah
20:09:03 <Arc_Koen> when using --print it turns out the program goes a *very* long way before halting
20:10:07 <oerjan> it basically has do duplicate a number of blocks equal to the character read, then run them once, then run the leftovers once
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20:12:29 <oerjan> i don't see any other way than )$[...] of getting an input number into a form that can be handled
20:13:14 <oerjan> well maybe something with <$[...] could work but that's going to be even worse
20:14:50 <Arc_Koen> hmmm does fueue accept empty blocks?
20:14:53 <oerjan> and a ) is needed at some point anyway
20:15:22 <Arc_Koen> atriq: are empty blocks legal?
20:15:28 <atriq> Yes
20:15:40 <atriq> I think
20:15:52 <atriq> I've never actually thought about this
20:15:56 <atriq> I think they are
20:16:04 <oerjan> i think it's just that since you don't need any other argument to create an empty block, there's no use having a function _other_ than [] for it
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20:16:52 <oerjan> just like underload doesn't have anything but () for it either
20:19:10 <Arc_Koen> right
20:20:01 <Arc_Koen> ahah
20:20:08 <Arc_Koen> well I'll have to revise my interpreter then
20:33:43 <oerjan> argh how does one get vim to ignore special characters in the substitution _string_?
20:33:57 <Arc_Koen> ok, the c interpreter had problems with deblocking empty blocks, but that's fixed
20:34:33 <Arc_Koen> oerjan: don't you have something to escape problematic characters?
20:34:50 <atriq> Goodnight
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20:34:53 <oerjan> but i don't know _which_ characters are the problematic ones :(
20:35:15 <oerjan> [[)[~~~~()+1])])][[)[~H~+32])])][)~[0]])$
20:35:18 <oerjan> argh
20:35:33 <oerjan> i cannot cut and paste from the : line :(
20:37:33 <oerjan> hm i think it's the ~
20:38:27 <oerjan> whew :sno fixed it
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20:43:20 <Arc_Koen> (it still writes P for 0)
20:43:34 <oerjan> as intended
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20:49:47 <Arc_Koen> zzo38: could you replace fueue.c with http://sprunge.us/EIBh please? modifications include fixing a memory leak, using union types, and fixing an issue with empty blocks
20:50:49 <zzo38> Arc_Koen: Done.
20:51:09 <Arc_Koen> or maybe I should find a way to upload files myself I feel bad depending on you like that - is zzo38computer.cjb.net really your physical computer?
20:51:12 <Arc_Koen> thank you
20:57:40 <zzo38> Yes it is my physical computer.
20:58:01 <oerjan> it works! [[)[~~~~()+1])])][[)$-----~1-[~:)~)[)[~:)~)]~:]:]~[~[$~H~~%~+])~48-):])~)~:])][)~[0]])$
20:58:04 <zzo38> (Actually it is a router, but ports 70, 80, 194, and some others are connected to my computer.)
21:01:36 <oerjan> wtf
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21:02:01 <olsner> let me guess, 70 is gopher?
21:03:56 <Arc_Koen> niiiiice
21:06:20 <zzo38> olsner: Yes
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21:16:43 <Arc_Koen> is someone familiar with MarioLANG? I think http://esolangs.org/wiki/Truth-machine#MarioLANG is missing =====
21:17:17 <Arc_Koen> without it I guess when input is '1' Mario would just die without outputting anything
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21:51:27 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: would seem so...
21:56:12 <oerjan> my sleuth skills tell me it was made by atriq http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Truth-machine&diff=30464&oldid=30434
21:57:32 <oerjan> something i'm also wondering is if you can take an elevator the other way after using it; that would also mess up things.
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22:33:03 <Arc_Koen> oerjan: I did not really understand how elevators worked exactly
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22:34:02 <Arc_Koen> but I guess the reason there are different symbols for the start and end of an elevator is that it only works one way
22:34:50 <oerjan> hm
22:35:52 <Arc_Koen> besides, I'm guessing items are one-use only
22:36:58 <Arc_Koen> my confusion about elevators come from the first example: http://esolangs.org/wiki/MarioLANG#Commands_Explained
22:37:31 <Arc_Koen> why did he need a ! (stop walking) and why are there three # and three "
22:37:44 <Arc_Koen> ooooooh
22:37:49 <Arc_Koen> ok I get it
22:37:55 <Arc_Koen> it's an elevator as in the game
22:38:04 <Arc_Koen> when Mario steps on it it actually moves
22:38:15 <Arc_Koen> and it stop moving when it meets the "
22:38:31 <oerjan> *crunch*
22:38:59 <Arc_Koen> so it's like ground, except it can move once - but it's like ground, not like an object
22:39:15 <Arc_Koen> so in atriq's program it would probably work like a wall
22:41:12 <Arc_Koen> well the talk page is all about the elevator
22:45:44 <oerjan> not about the same question though
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22:46:43 <Arc_Koen> well it's about "your description of the elevator is incomplete and ambiguous"
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22:54:00 <oerjan> the lack of an implementation doesn't help.
22:58:07 <Arc_Koen> I'd make one if it were less ambiguous
22:58:56 <Arc_Koen> "move one space. take item. look what's under your feet. fall. move one space again"
23:00:14 <oerjan> however the truth machine _does_ seem to be in conflict with what's already written, not ambiguous.
23:00:37 <Arc_Koen> yup the truth machine is completely wrong
23:00:57 <Arc_Koen> but if items are one use only then I guess loops are not really possible
23:01:19 <oerjan> i don't think they can be, with the language being claimed TC
23:01:23 <Arc_Koen> the wiki page says it's turing complete but there is nothing that looks like a proof
23:02:05 <Arc_Koen> ok I'll guess I'll make a truth-machine with a comment about items
23:02:06 <oerjan> well it seems to have most of brainfuck + a flexible means of flow control, so it should be.
23:02:55 <oerjan> but indeed those are items, so cannot be one use only
23:03:26 <oerjan> there is simply no unbounded storage without unlimited items
23:05:53 <oerjan> oh hm and the examples on the page itself do seem to imply you need to stop walking to safely use an elevator...
23:06:52 <Arc_Koen> yup
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23:07:18 <Arc_Koen> like in super mario - if you keep walking you'll fall off while the elevator is moving
23:08:29 <oerjan> i'm wondering about the exact meaning of [ if you pass over an elevator...
23:09:01 <oerjan> i think i'll make a truth machine with less assumptions
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23:10:57 <Arc_Koen> oerjan: [ skips commands
23:11:03 <Arc_Koen> elevators are parts, not commands
23:11:11 <oerjan> yep thought so
23:11:35 <Arc_Koen> it would be like "if [condition], skip the wall" "will do" "BAM"
23:13:10 <oerjan> except parts _are_ also listed under commands.
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23:13:53 <Arc_Koen> oh, I confused commands for instructions
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23:14:31 <Arc_Koen> also i'm assuming if you make an elevator get down through a ground, mario will not phase through
23:14:43 <Arc_Koen> though I wonder if mario dies if the elevator goes up through the ceiling
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23:17:34 <oerjan> i edited it, is this one better?
23:19:10 <oerjan> it assumes the elevator doesn't go faster than Mario is walking, otherwise it needs to be taller
23:26:00 <Arc_Koen> yup that sounds good
23:27:46 * oerjan imagines Arc_Koen listening to MarioLANG code through a screen reader
23:34:26 <hagb4rd> wow! this language is fun
23:37:00 <Arc_Koen> I was thinking about an object-oriented language based on mario kart
23:37:17 <Arc_Koen> with 8 participants in a 128 meters long race
23:37:28 <Arc_Koen> every kart has an acceleration, speed, and position
23:37:55 <Arc_Koen> and can do things at times specified by the program
23:38:04 <Arc_Koen> (like using objects against other participants)
23:38:56 <Arc_Koen> and of course everybody wants to win so karts cannot decelerate willingly (but can be slow down or stopped by objects used by other karts)
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23:44:03 <kmc> oh, my mistake, these are DVD-9's
23:44:07 <kmc> so that's like 180 GB
23:44:57 <Arc_Koen> anyway have a good night
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