←2012-09-19 2012-09-20 2012-09-21→ ↑2012 ↑all
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00:15:46 <itidus21> Are you thinking what I'm thinking?
00:15:48 <itidus21> @brain
00:15:48 <lambdabot> Yeah, but I thought Madonna already had a steady bloke!
00:18:20 <oerjan> > (659-463)
00:18:21 <lambdabot> 196
00:18:34 <oerjan> > 196 `divMod` 7
00:18:35 <lambdabot> (28,0)
00:18:43 <shachaf> COÏNCIDENCE?
00:19:59 <oerjan> > map (`divMod` 7) [463-463,168-70]
00:20:00 <lambdabot> [(0,0),(14,0)]
00:20:13 <oerjan> oops
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00:37:54 <itidus21> First Images for a New Duck Hunt Energy
00:38:15 <itidus21> ^First Images in a New Hunt for Dark Energy
00:45:30 <itidus21> Forget the Parallel Universe -- Doppelgangers Are Among Us : For example, can you guess which American writer is a dead ringer for Albert Einstein? The celebrated American writer and humorist Samuel Clemens, better known by the pseudonym Mark Twain, bears a striking resemblance to the father of modern science.
00:46:06 <itidus21> right...
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00:58:50 <oerjan> > map (`divMod` 7) [652-463,19-70]
00:58:51 <lambdabot> [(27,0),(-8,5)]
00:59:03 <oerjan> wat. oh right
00:59:23 <oerjan> > map (`divMod` 7) [652-463,19-110]
00:59:24 <lambdabot> [(27,0),(-13,0)]
00:59:45 <oerjan> good, good
01:02:27 <Arc_Koen> itidus21: see, and I guess you haven't even checked to see how much alike they looked
01:02:43 <Arc_Koen> just because it sounds stupid
01:02:57 <Arc_Koen> that's the very reason why the earth stayed flat for so long!
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01:04:57 <oerjan> > map (`divMod` 7) [680-463,229-110]
01:04:58 <lambdabot> [(31,0),(17,0)]
01:08:07 <oerjan> > map (`divMod` 7) [715-463,145-110]
01:08:08 <lambdabot> [(36,0),(5,0)]
01:14:01 <oerjan> > map (`divMod` 7) [715-463,194-110]
01:14:03 <lambdabot> [(36,0),(12,0)]
01:14:13 <oerjan> > map (`divMod` 7) [715-463,82-110]
01:14:15 <lambdabot> [(36,0),(-4,0)]
01:15:52 <oerjan> > map (`divMod` 7) [484-463,3-110]
01:15:53 <lambdabot> [(3,0),(-16,5)]
01:15:56 <oerjan> > map (`divMod` 7) [484-463,33-110]
01:15:57 <lambdabot> [(3,0),(-11,0)]
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01:24:20 <oerjan> > map (`divMod` 7) [729-463,278-110]
01:24:21 <lambdabot> [(38,0),(24,0)]
01:31:16 <oerjan> > map (`divMod` 7) [589-463,334-110]
01:31:17 <lambdabot> [(18,0),(32,0)]
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02:33:01 <itidus21> Arc_Koen: a flat earth is ideal. a round earth is, to use my choice of words, dissapointing
02:33:23 <Phantom_Hoover> if impractical
02:33:31 <itidus21> i guess that flat earth isnt that great
02:33:42 <itidus21> like if it was a finite flat earth
02:33:46 <Arc_Koen> the idea that I could take my bike and ride in ANY direction and still be sure I will always meet new people is kind of comforting
02:34:23 <Arc_Koen> on the other hand, riding in a random direction and ending up falling off the side of the flat earth... :(
02:34:26 <itidus21> Arc_Koen: this is a great example of what i meant when i said the universe is dissapointing
02:34:40 <Arc_Koen> that would make space programs much less cheaper, of course
02:35:25 <Arc_Koen> "let's send a chimpanzee into space!" *push* "done"
02:35:55 <itidus21> i find that learning the true state of things tends to be boring and dissapointing
02:37:36 <itidus21> however, when it comes to notions of afterlife, i believe that people aren't meta enough about it
02:38:06 <Arc_Koen> I had that thought earlier
02:38:09 <Arc_Koen> I came home
02:38:17 <Arc_Koen> and the neighbour's cat jumped into the garden
02:38:28 <Arc_Koen> I opened the door, and it came in with me
02:38:41 <Arc_Koen> it's veeeery curious so it wants to explore every door
02:39:07 <Arc_Koen> and when I had to go to the toilets I didn't let it enter
02:39:10 <itidus21> humm
02:39:30 <Arc_Koen> so I guess now it must be thinking "there's something fascinating about that door! I wonder what's behind"
02:39:44 <Arc_Koen> cause it's the only room he's not allowed to enter
02:40:06 <Arc_Koen> maybe it's the same about the universe
02:40:19 <Arc_Koen> there's so much fuss about dark matter and stuff we know nothing about
02:40:28 <oerjan> As a bonus, my last proof may teach some others to hate internal window scrollbars.
02:41:07 <Arc_Koen> what do you mean your last WOAH JOLVERINE
02:41:28 <itidus21> well.. i have yet to get answers about why complexity leads to conciousness, why observing things creates conciousness,
02:41:34 <itidus21> what red is
02:41:43 <itidus21> what five is
02:41:53 <Arc_Koen> so what's the wiki policy when it comes to choosing between "Jolverine_Turing-completeness_proof" and "Jolverine/Turing-completeness_proof"
02:42:17 <Phantom_Hoover> The latter because it makes us look smart.
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02:49:40 <oerjan> the _other_ elements are mostly from what i already mentioned on the talk page.
02:50:50 <Arc_Koen> well that was very interesting but it's 4:50 in the morning
02:51:36 <Arc_Koen> and tomorrow I must do that painting thing that must be done when it's "not too cold but not too sunny", so in the morning
02:52:57 <oerjan> and i should sleep
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02:53:54 <Arc_Koen> and then massive tidying the house up cause it really needs it and then at 3pm I gotta go to that incarcerated people association and tonight I must watch that horror movie a friend lend me SLEEPING IS FOR LOSERS WHO NEEDS IT
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03:12:43 <itidus21> quite right
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03:49:13 <itidus21> speaking of dissapointments, is the lack of humanoids or reptiles on mars or the moon, and also, the lack of any kind of islands in the clouds (but i presume noone ever expected that)
03:53:57 <JaBoJa> There are islands in the clouds in early summer morning, when a fog is on the water.
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04:34:13 <Arc_Koen> hello back
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05:14:34 <fizzie> I greppeded logs on the "any /subpages in the main namespace" topic, and at least back when it was discussed once the idea was that there'd be none.
05:14:44 <fizzie> But that might have changeded.
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05:15:43 <fizzie> There was some talk on how subpages would interact with articles/languages that have /s in the names.
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05:18:46 <Arc_Koen> well yeah I got confused with that
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06:29:13 <kmc> http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/73258510/sad-pictures-for-children/posts/311890
06:29:48 <shachaf> hi kmc
06:29:57 <kmc> hichaf
06:30:03 <shachaf> Nice talk by roconnor about dependent types today.
06:30:06 <shachaf> Pity you missed it.
06:33:24 <ion> URL?
06:33:57 <kmc> i gave a talk today, about kernel exploits
06:34:03 <ion> URL?
06:34:12 <shachaf> kmc: Oh, did you end up updating it?
06:34:17 <shachaf> ion: t0rch.org
06:34:19 <kmc> http://ugcs.net/~keegan/talks/kernel-exploit/talk.pdf
06:34:20 <shachaf> Wait, no.
06:34:22 <kmc> shachaf: yes, a bit
06:34:25 <shachaf> Oh, yes.
06:35:23 <ion> Thanks, although a video would be nice.
06:35:50 <shachaf> The r6 talk wasn't filmed.
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06:36:54 <shachaf> Actually we had a double talk about dependent types and then NixOS.
06:39:13 <shachaf> kmc: "how many times have I called exec" seems like a bizarre way of preventing this sort of bug.
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06:46:25 <Sgeo> Ooh, I've liked the idea behind NixOS
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07:00:59 <kmc> shachaf: yes!
07:01:03 <kmc> aww, I'm sad I missed NixOS
07:01:10 <kmc> just today I was telling people how cool the idea behind Nix is
07:01:19 <kmc> we = some group in SF?
07:01:23 <shachaf> bahaskell
07:01:27 <kmc> aha
07:01:28 <shachaf> Was at Stanford this time.
07:01:51 <shachaf> Apparently roconnor has actually been running NixOS as his primary OS for years.
07:01:56 <shachaf> Weird.
07:02:01 <kmc> cool
07:02:09 <shachaf> Yes.
07:02:13 * shachaf might try it sometime.
07:57:32 <Sgeo> Why was I under the impression that it's impossible to write a Functor in Haskell that breaks the Functor laws?
07:57:50 <Sgeo> I could swear I saw a typeclass that had laws that couldn't be broken in Haskell without cheating.
07:58:12 <shachaf> By definition, you can't write a Functor instance that breaks the Functor laws without cheating.
07:59:17 <Sgeo> How about if I redefine "cheating" to mean "using any function whose name in the standard library begins with "unsafe""
07:59:27 <shachaf> Anyway lots of instances break the Functor laws.
07:59:49 <shachaf> > (undefined :: Int -> Int) `seq` ()
07:59:50 <lambdabot> *Exception: Prelude.undefined
07:59:53 <shachaf> > (fmap id (undefined :: Int -> Int)) `seq` ()
07:59:55 <lambdabot> ()
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08:07:24 <Sgeo> I guess the thing is that some typeclasses might have laws enforced by Haskell's type system, and a translation to Clojure would be incomplete without mentioning the laws that now won't be statically enforced.
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08:33:37 <oerjan> nice timing
08:34:03 <oerjan> just read your sleeping is for losers remark
08:34:40 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: ^
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08:35:46 <oerjan> i guess he fell asleep again
08:36:40 <oerjan> <fizzie> There was some talk on how subpages would interact with articles/languages that have /s in the names.
08:37:14 <oerjan> which reminds me, has elliott got /// fixed again? :P
08:37:35 <oerjan> nope.
08:38:07 <fizzie> What would "fixed" mean? http://esolangs.org/wiki//// working? That sounds quite ambitious.
08:38:17 <oerjan> but it worked before!
08:38:29 <oerjan> there's even a link on the main page, which used to work
08:38:54 <oerjan> then at some point it stopped.
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08:40:14 <Arc_Koen> hello again
08:45:08 <oerjan> hi de ho
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08:47:27 <oerjan> <Sgeo> Why was I under the impression that it's impossible to write a Functor in Haskell that breaks the Functor laws?
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08:47:53 <oerjan> well i think you automatically get the rest if you have fmap id = id
08:48:03 <shachaf> Yes.
08:48:13 <shachaf> But "fmap id = id" is a pretty huge requirement. :-)
08:48:39 <oerjan> indeed
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08:50:45 <shachaf> fmap (fmap id) = id
09:10:22 <JaBoJa> If cat could be used as programming language (like described here: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Cat ) then where it reads data from. I've always thought it reads from stdin, but in this case it reads from the script, not console from which I call the script.
09:10:51 <JaBoJa> Is there any other input stream for interpreter input?
09:12:59 <oerjan> JaBoJa: i would call cat a language without input.
09:13:57 <JaBoJa> Yes, but I'm wondering why does it work, while my program copying from cin to cout does not work as an interpreter.
09:13:58 <oerjan> since other languages without input behave essentially the same
09:14:35 <oerjan> well your interpreter takes the program as _its_ input.
09:14:41 <oerjan> i'd say that works.
09:16:30 <JaBoJa> So how should I write own cat?
09:16:34 <JaBoJa> (meow)
09:16:40 <oerjan> my unlambda in unlambda interpreter works similarly. and then takes the input of the program as what's remaining. (this technically disallows comments and whitespace at the end of the program i guess.)
09:17:55 <oerjan> JaBoJa: well if you _can_ read from file you should probably support a filename argument
09:18:05 <oerjan> otherwise, just copy input to output.
09:18:15 <oerjan> we're not very strict on these matters here :P
09:19:21 <oerjan> the Cat Program article is mostly there as somewhere to link to from cat programs written in _other_ esolangs, though.
09:20:49 <oerjan> JaBoJa: you could look at ///, it is rather similar to Cat, except that a couple of characters _don't_ just get copied to output.
09:22:13 <oerjan> that implementation just uses perl's <> operator, which conveniently takes filenames on the command line but defaults to stdin if none are given
09:23:15 <oerjan> that is, the $_ = join '', <>;
09:23:33 <oerjan> command reads whichever files into the $_ variable
09:24:48 <oerjan> in fact if you replaced the entire while loop with just print $_; that would be a good cat (although perl can do that even simpler)
09:25:43 <oerjan> JaBoJa: most esolang cat programs just copy input to output, anyway
09:26:06 <oerjan> only a few esolangs support file input :)
09:49:15 <JaBoJa> Reading from file seems to be the only way to write own interpreter. At least under the Linux I'm using.
09:55:35 <oerjan> ...that makes no sense.
09:56:41 <oerjan> but then you haven't described what you are trying to do, besides that it'll be a cat.
10:04:45 -!- oerjan has set topic: SORRY, WE'RE OUT | Official channel of ESME | ESME is the best programming language. Why have you abandoned ESME? | Do not fret, ESME can forgive you. Give yourself freely to ESME. | PT6TRPA6PM6K | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | http://esolangs.org/wiki.
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11:21:22 <JaBoJa|> :)
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11:21:54 <JaBoJa> :)
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11:25:09 <jaboja> Do there exist any peyo-c (or c++) implementation?
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12:53:35 <Arc_Koen> @tell oerjan was it with you I discussed how queues were not as fitted as stacks for functional use? I was reading the Random language TC stuff and I realized a queue can be implemented as a pair of stacks (one where to push and one where to pop) so it works just as fine :)
12:53:35 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
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13:09:02 <Taneb> @messages?
13:09:02 <lambdabot> Taneb: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
13:09:25 <Taneb> Oh, I forgot about that one!
13:09:27 <Taneb> Hehehe
13:09:33 <Taneb> <lambdabot> quintopia said 6d 21h 41m 7s ago: hi
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14:54:12 <kmc> cnn.com today is running important stories like "How to wait in an iPhone 5 line" and "Dog hates his new shoes"
14:54:30 <nortti> :P
14:56:38 <kmc> i'm always amazed how apple manages to convince the "news"media to run hours of free advertisements for their products
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15:23:28 <itidus21> because the news will do anything for a story
15:23:32 <atriq> Different computer, different settings
15:23:34 <itidus21> heheh
15:23:55 <atriq> For instance, this computer doesn't right now have a mouse
15:24:11 <itidus21> kmc: oh we had the news showing people lining up for iphone 5 here
15:25:59 <atriq> Hmm
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15:26:12 <atriq> Anyone know how I can rig up an XBox controller to work as a mouse?
15:32:41 <itidus21> thats an odd question. why not use a mouse?
15:32:51 <atriq> My brother stole my mouse
15:33:13 <atriq> :/
15:33:32 <itidus21> oh.... cool... life's fun
15:40:31 <itidus21> another question is is it possible to rig up some keys on your keyboard to work as a mouse
15:40:40 <itidus21> until you can replace it
15:40:44 <atriq> I'm sure it is
15:40:54 <atriq> I just want to actually use this XBox controller
15:41:05 <itidus21> its just that xbox tends to be a microsoft thing
15:41:50 <itidus21> as i have been reading lately, in directx they have replaced directinput with xinput which is designed for xbox360 controllers
15:42:19 <itidus21> @google xbox controller as mouse
15:42:20 <lambdabot> http://www.instructables.com/id/Use-an-Xbox-360-controller-as-a-mouse/
15:42:20 <lambdabot> Title: Use an Xbox 360 Controller as a Mouse
15:43:02 <itidus21> " While this might not seem practical, it is handy when you don't have a suitable surface to use a regular mouse on. For example, when the computer you need to operate is hooked up to the TV in your living room running a bunch of emulators" worth a look
15:44:43 <atriq> I would use that link
15:44:46 <atriq> But I can't click it
15:46:25 <itidus21> hmm anyway its targetting windows users
15:46:32 <itidus21> but
15:46:44 <atriq> My googling indicated that most users of Ubuntu
15:46:49 <atriq> Have the opposite problem
15:47:05 <itidus21> using a mouse as an xbox controller?
15:47:20 <kmc> itidus21: wired xbox controllers are standard USB HID devices
15:47:26 <kmc> both the original xbox and the 360
15:47:38 <kmc> in the original they used a weird physical connector but in the 360 they went to the normal USB plug
15:47:49 <atriq> itidus21, using an XBox controller as not a mouse
15:47:51 <kmc> you can also get a USB adapter for the 360 wireless controllers... i don't know if its interface is standard
15:48:32 <atriq> This one's USB
15:48:52 <itidus21> i dread the thought that if i want to stick with windows that i may have to oneday upgrade from xp
15:48:55 <kmc> so just search for using a generic usb joystick as a mouse
15:50:35 <Sgeo> I think consensus is that 7 is not terrible.
15:50:48 <Sgeo> But who knows, maybe in 2020 ReactOS will be half usable
15:51:45 <itidus21> the way i see it, customers losing out is a natural consequence of the practice of business
15:53:19 <itidus21> basically i think what happens is customers feel pain or suffering whenever a pricetag is placed between them and the things they desire
15:54:29 <itidus21> so business operates by separating consumers from as many desirable things as possible with pricetags
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15:55:12 <atriq> Power cut :/
15:55:29 <Sgeo> Oh, so you're a person I should have been updating
15:55:34 <itidus21> ironically a healthy planet and mentally healthy society is a desirable thing
15:55:39 <Sgeo> I utterly didn't realize atriq = Taneb
15:55:46 <itidus21> therefore business separates us from it with pricetags
15:55:59 <atriq> Sgeo, it was in the topic the other week
15:56:07 <Sgeo> I forgot
15:57:18 <atriq> No problem
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16:50:44 <AnotherTest> Hello
16:50:50 <atriq> Hey
17:05:59 <JaBoJa> >++++++++[<+++++++++>-]<.+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.+++++++..+++.[-]>+++++[<++++++>-]<+++.
17:06:46 <atriq> !bf >++++++++[<+++++++++>-]<.+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.+++++++..+++.[-]>+++++[<++++++>-]<+++.
17:06:49 <EgoBot> Hello!
17:08:16 -!- Gregor has set topic: We eat clay | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | http://esolangs.org/wiki.
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17:22:13 <quintopia> hi Gregor
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17:24:00 <Gregor> 'allo.
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17:24:32 <fizzie> Mmm, clay.
17:24:53 -!- pikhq has joined.
17:25:04 <Gregor> Claylicious!
17:25:16 <Gregor> Tastes just like inorganic matter and sadness.
17:28:24 <atriq> Gregor, did you get clay on the pants of Narcissus?
17:29:01 <Gregor> Heck no! The Enchanting Pants of Narcissus remain 100% clean and amazing.
17:29:14 <atriq> Oh thank god
17:31:20 <Gregor> All four pair.
17:31:24 <Gregor> They're quite popular.
17:31:28 <Gregor> I'm thinking of buying more.
17:36:10 <itidus21> Taneb, The purpose of science is to serve mankind. You seem to regard science as some kind of dodge ... or hustle. Your theories are the worst kind of popular tripe, your methods are sloppy, and your conclusions are highly questionable!
17:37:34 <atriq> ...
17:37:52 <atriq> Was that addressed at me, or some other Taneb who actually sciences?
17:38:07 <kmc> i don't wanna talk to a scientist, y'all motherfuckers lyin' and gettin' me pissed
17:38:21 <itidus21> its just a quote and i had to address it at someone
17:40:52 <atriq> The only other Taneb is a dead racehorse
17:40:58 <itidus21> some article "Fake Scientists We (Maybe) Wish Were Real in Pictures"
17:41:01 <Phantom_Hoover> It is in fact a quote from Ghostbusters.
17:41:53 <kmc> 17 awesomest nostalgic pop-culture references
17:42:47 <Phantom_Hoover> omg you were into popular things as a child??? me too!!!
17:43:01 <Phantom_Hoover> the popular things back then were so much better than the popular things now
17:43:20 <atriq> I was only ever into unpopular things
17:43:29 <atriq> Like Cubix
17:43:42 <itidus21> its inconcievable that the popular things of today are as good as the popular things of several decades ago
17:43:45 <itidus21> damnit
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17:49:29 <kmc> i'm into obscure, nerdy things like video games and sci-fi action movies
17:49:47 <kmc> one day society will accept me and then there will be a big industry for video games and sci-fi movies
17:50:28 <pikhq> kmc: Some day, in the far off year of 2012.
17:50:48 <kmc> the distant future, the year 2000
17:50:50 <itidus21> i was asking for that
17:50:51 <pikhq> Now if you will excuse me, I've got an appointment for a swirly; can't miss, or worse things shall happen!
17:51:01 <kmc> :D
17:52:16 <pikhq> itidus21: Have you *seen* 60s TV?
17:52:57 <itidus21> humm... maybe some reruns.. but im not even sure what 60s TV is
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17:53:06 <itidus21> its possible i haven't
17:53:23 <pikhq> Gilligan's Island is an example of a show that was popular in the 60s.
17:53:28 <itidus21> like i've seen the brady bunch...
17:53:36 <pikhq> Another example.
17:53:40 <itidus21> ah
17:53:48 <pikhq> Oh, that was early 70s.
17:53:51 <Gregor> Dude. Gilligan's Island is amazing. You'd better not be dissing Gilligan's Island.
17:53:55 <itidus21> humm
17:53:59 <Gregor> I want to be a Professor of Everythingology.
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17:54:24 <itidus21> also.. ahh what else do i see on.. the love boat, bewitched, i dream of jeannie
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17:55:07 <pikhq> itidus21: Anyways. Many media have actually been improving *dramatically* with passing years.
17:55:25 <itidus21> except that i can't stand most shows made this decade
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17:55:44 <itidus21> i think i liked tv when it was less real
17:55:45 <AnotherTest> oops
17:55:46 <pikhq> Remember, once upon a time TOS was considered legitimately good, not just campy and silly.
17:56:04 <pikhq> itidus21: Sturgeon's Law dictates that that will pretty much always be true.
17:56:11 <pikhq> 99% of everything is, in fact, crap.
17:56:34 <itidus21> i don't like seeing people behaving realistically on tv... it makes me cringe
17:56:41 <pikhq> ...
17:57:00 <pikhq> How would you prefer they behave?
17:57:06 <AnotherTest> I don't think people act realistically on tv? (Just pseudo-realistically)
17:57:10 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, counterpoint, Star Trek since DS9.
17:57:40 <itidus21> yeah... psuedo realism is really ugly
17:57:51 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Ugh.
17:58:04 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: They took a mind-blowingly popular franchise and fucked it up.
17:58:22 <itidus21> basically i think people in 2012 sitcomso about young adults act like sociopaths
17:59:03 <itidus21> for some imagined value of sociopaths
17:59:32 <Phantom_Hoover> you've never read the tvtropes page on comedic sociopathy have you
17:59:41 <itidus21> no i have not
17:59:51 <Phantom_Hoover> please do it
18:00:20 <pikhq> (seriously, TNG's ratings were stellar for pretty much of its run. Which is kinda amazing, considering this is a show that was made because some people liked a 60s TV show a *bit* too much.)
18:00:39 <kmc> wasn't TOS pretty early to the whole "science fiction as metaphor for real social issues" thing, as far as TV goes
18:01:04 <pikhq> kmc: As far as TV shows go, it's like the second show to do it.
18:01:12 <pikhq> (the first being, of course, Twilight Zone)
18:01:23 <pikhq> (well, when it wasn't s/science fiction/fantasy/)
18:01:24 <kmc> <3 twilight zone
18:01:31 <kmc> sure, not much point distinguishing the two really
18:01:31 <pikhq> Yeah, <3 Twilight Zone.
18:01:56 <kmc> a lot of TZ episodes are less traditionally sci-fi or traditionally fantasy and more what you might call magical realism
18:02:03 <pikhq> Especially when you're using it to shine a light into social issues...
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18:02:23 <pikhq> I tend to consider "magical realism" a form of "fantasy", but then my notion of "fantasy" is fairly broad.
18:02:37 <kmc> do you have a distinction between fantasy and sci-fi?
18:02:39 <itidus21> Phantom_Hoover: :D i actually like a lot of these shows.. i must be thinking of some cousin of this phenomena
18:02:55 <itidus21> i think maybe what i don't like is dramatic sociopathy if it exists
18:02:59 <kmc> fantasy is sci-fi with elves; sci-fi is fantasy in space
18:03:06 <kmc> i'm sure someone has made something with space elves
18:03:09 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc, well for hard sci-fi Sam Hughes' definition that "it matters how things work" is acceptable.
18:03:18 <AnotherTest> I always thought fantasy should have medieval elements
18:03:25 <Phantom_Hoover> But space opera is basically just fantasy with a different flavour, yes.
18:03:33 <AnotherTest> although that's probably incorrect, because start wars does have medieval elements
18:03:37 <AnotherTest> *star
18:03:39 <kmc> and some magic-and-elves fiction goes deep into how magic "works"
18:03:54 <pikhq> kmc: Ish.
18:04:01 <kmc> (i expect so, it's not really my cup of tea)
18:04:16 <itidus21> seinfeld, MASH, the young ones, manage to be some of my favorite shows
18:04:33 <pikhq> kmc: Some "sci-fi" is definitely a totally different sort of thing from fantasy, some "sci-fi" is so blatantly fantasy that the only reason it's not called that is IN SPAAACE.
18:04:54 <kmc> space has a terrible power
18:05:09 <pikhq> For instance, oftentimes Trek is space fantasy, in my estimation.
18:05:18 <itidus21> Phantom_Hoover: there may be mroe going on in my aversion to certain shows than i accounted for
18:05:23 <itidus21> ^more
18:05:25 <pikhq> (often, hell. Usually.)
18:05:48 <pikhq> If Star Trek were hard sci-fi, Spock could not be alive.
18:06:09 <Phantom_Hoover> ...
18:06:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Star Trek is ALWAYS space fantasy.
18:06:23 <pikhq> Vulcans have copper-based blood. Humans have iron-based blood. Spock is half-human half-Vulcan. Need I say more.
18:06:50 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Actually... Yeah, pretty much.
18:06:58 <pikhq> I don't think it ever nudged towards hard sci-fi.
18:07:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Technobabble is magic but with -ium and -on at the end.
18:07:03 <itidus21> Phantom_Hoover: i think it may be that i don't like any modern sitcom which is not comedic sociopathy
18:07:09 <pikhq> More magic in space.
18:07:40 <JaBoJa> Why fantasy should have a medieval elements? It is common, because people are copying existing themes but I've read fantastic books without any medieval elements. Sometimes making use of existing comtemporary magical believs is enough to make a story an interesting fantasy book.
18:08:04 <pikhq> JaBoJa: I concur.
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18:09:54 <itidus21> rather, i like most of the shows listed under tvtropes SadistShow
18:10:43 <kmc> "medieval" typically implies european, too
18:11:04 <kmc> versus fantasy based on old shit from asia, middle east, africa, aboriginal australia, etc.
18:11:07 <kmc> all of which can be fun
18:11:25 <kmc> it should be noted that i don't actually read much sf/f and just have vague ideas of what's out there
18:12:07 <AnotherTest> Sf often has elements of old cultures too, eg. star trek has romulus and remus which is obviously based on the Roman culture
18:12:16 <AnotherTest> *of other old
18:12:20 <kmc> http://blastr.com/2009/10/ron-moore-calls-star-trek.php
18:12:20 <pikhq> You're missing quite a bit of good stuff, and absolute tons of shit. :)
18:13:03 <pikhq> kmc: Utterly unsurprising.
18:13:04 <Phantom_Hoover> is battlestar galactica any good if you liked ds9 btw
18:14:19 <Gregor> The new BSG was good for the first few seasons.
18:14:30 <Gregor> Then, like all new sci-fi, it turned into soap opera in space..
18:14:42 <pikhq> And then into rather bad soap opera in space.
18:14:45 <Gregor> The last season was utter, unforgivable garbage.
18:14:58 <Gregor> Same happened to SG:U woooh X_X
18:15:18 <Gregor> (SG:U made it ALMOST a whole season before turning into soap opera in space. Almost.)
18:15:31 <pikhq> I suspect they ended up using just about all the vitality the Stargate franchise had in it.
18:15:44 <pikhq> Considering SG1 ran for 10 god-damned seasons.
18:16:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Did anything not turn into soap opera in space?
18:16:50 <pikhq> Well, SG1 had hardly any space in it. :P
18:17:46 <Gregor> SG1 came dangerously close once or twice, but managed to stay OK.
18:17:52 <Gregor> Roughly the same goes for Atlantis.
18:17:57 <Gregor> And nothing pre-2000ish did.
18:18:07 <Gregor> It's a recent phenomenon, for the most part.
18:18:43 <itidus21> maybe they should make a series focusing on the mechanics of space battles
18:19:21 <pikhq> Soooo, they should get Niven to do a TV series?
18:19:36 <Phantom_Hoover> u
18:19:37 <Phantom_Hoover> h
18:19:49 <Phantom_Hoover> niven didn't really go into precise space combat technicalities
18:20:09 <pikhq> Hrm. Duh. I dunno why I was thinking that.
18:20:16 <itidus21> i guess im thinking of like ... say.. space invaders
18:20:39 <itidus21> or better yet, an asteroids based on war
18:20:52 <pikhq> Realistic space combat is somewhat hard to televise...
18:20:57 <Phantom_Hoover> read project rho, it has basically everything of import mixed with a dash of snide superiority and racist undertones
18:21:00 <Gregor> The only problem with this idea is that they need people to actually watch the shows.
18:21:03 <itidus21> i could called it spacewar
18:21:07 <olsner> I think actual space combat will be quite different from space invaders
18:21:10 <Gregor> Secondarily, they usually want the shows to be remotely watchable in the first place.
18:21:12 <pikhq> What with the typical expectation being "FIGHTERS IN SPAAAACE"
18:21:23 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, TOS wasn't that far off because they never had the budget to show two ships anywhere near each other.
18:21:29 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Hah.
18:21:44 <pikhq> Nice observation, actually.
18:22:01 <Phantom_Hoover> why of course, i got it off tv tropes
18:22:13 <pikhq> TAS actually did that, though.
18:22:17 <pikhq> (source, I watched TAS)
18:23:22 <itidus21> i think multiplayer asteroids sums up best what i mean
18:23:26 <pikhq> Oh, E17...
18:23:41 <pikhq> They recently announced a date *to announce the release date* of E17.
18:23:45 <itidus21> except in 3d with fancy raycasting
18:24:15 <Gregor> pikhq: Had they previously announced on which day they would make this announcement? :)
18:24:33 <pikhq> Gregor: No.
18:24:37 <Gregor> *snaps*
18:26:04 <olsner> itidus21: and then put the opponent a couple of light-years away
18:26:14 <itidus21> :o
18:26:20 <itidus21> wow
18:26:27 <olsner> realistic space combat!
18:26:40 <Phantom_Hoover> <pikhq> They recently announced a date *to announce the release date* of E17.
18:26:50 <Phantom_Hoover> that's standard practice these days, haven't you heard
18:27:09 <Phantom_Hoover> olsner, that's just stupid
18:27:26 <itidus21> it's occuring to me as i type this that space combat games were a thing and that i just missed it altogether
18:28:05 <itidus21> wing commander, all the 3d starwars games made before the release of episode 1
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18:28:17 <olsner> Phantom_Hoover: indeed
18:29:33 <itidus21> thunderbirds
18:29:56 <Phantom_Hoover> itidus21, freespace 2
18:30:02 <Phantom_Hoover> nobody remembers freespace 2
18:30:14 <itidus21> why does that name sound familiar though..
18:30:27 <itidus21> i wonder if my brother ever played it
18:30:35 <itidus21> probably not
18:31:00 <itidus21> just imagining things
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18:38:37 <Arc_Koen> hi
18:38:52 <AnotherTest> hello
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19:03:07 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: I don't think E17 pays attention to standard practice.
19:03:14 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: It's in its second decade of development.
19:05:58 <JaBoJa> #!/usr/bin/rev
19:05:58 <JaBoJa> !dlrow olleH
19:06:42 <JaBoJa> (reverse variant of cat language)
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19:15:12 <kmc> yes tie fighter <3
19:15:24 <kmc> i had some janky third-party level editor for tie fighter
19:15:31 <kmc> it was fun as hell
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19:15:49 <kmc> make a bunch of star destroyers show up and start shooting at each other for no reason
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19:27:57 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc, in FS2 they call that Battle of Endor Syndrome.
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19:32:29 -!- oerjan has set topic: We eat clay | No I don't! Well hardly any. | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | http://esolangs.org/wiki.
19:33:30 <oerjan> @messages
19:33:30 <lambdabot> Arc_Koen said 6h 39m 55s ago: was it with you I discussed how queues were not as fitted as stacks for functional use? I was reading the Random language TC stuff and I realized a queue can be
19:33:30 <lambdabot> implemented as a pair of stacks (one where to push and one where to pop) so it works just as fine :)
19:33:30 <lambdabot> elliott said 5h 32m 13s ago: you could have just reminded me rather than making a bunch of edits I'll have to revert
19:34:17 <oerjan> @tell elliott *MWAHAHAHA* ok i promise to revert them when you fix it.
19:34:18 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
19:34:31 <Taneb> Arc_Koen, the stacks in that case would have to tied together in the middle, which is difficult, I think
19:34:38 <oerjan> indeed
19:35:42 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: when the pop stack is empty you need to shuffle the entire push stack onto it.
19:38:20 <oerjan> although it's a working method, we've discussed it here before.
19:39:13 <Taneb> The shuffling's probably O(n)
19:39:19 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: ?
19:40:28 <oerjan> yes. athewordthatalwaysslipsmymind O(1) in _average_ per pop & push operation, though.
19:41:27 <Taneb> Hmm, yeah
19:42:07 <Arc_Koen> shufflign?
19:42:09 <oerjan> fingertrees are supposed to have O(1) push and pop. i'm not sure if that's just average, though.
19:42:12 <Arc_Koen> no, it's just reverse
19:42:27 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: i mean shuffle as in move over
19:42:43 <Arc_Koen> and if front is empty and back is of length n, then when you reverse back into front you're ok for the next n pops
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19:43:47 <oerjan> yep. it works. but it may not be good enough if you need realtime behavior.
19:44:47 <Taneb> The 2-stack method is fast but with irregular pauses
19:45:21 <Arc_Koen> push x (front, back) = (front, x :: back) pop (h :: t, back) = (h, (t, back)) pop ([], []) = error pop ([], back) = pop (List.rev back, [])
19:46:56 <Taneb> List.rev is O(n)
19:47:02 <Taneb> That's where the slowness is
19:47:07 <Phantom_Hoover> <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: ?
19:47:20 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, he's referring to FS2/Battle of Endor Syndrome
19:47:23 <Phantom_Hoover> Making your own missions and just having a bunch of massive ships plugging away at each other.
19:47:36 <Phantom_Hoover> With no way for the player to meaningfully influence the outcome.
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19:55:27 -!- oerjan has set topic: We eat clay | No I don't! Well hardly any. | Taneb is atriq just so you know | My other Taneb is a dead racehorse | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | http://esolangs.org/wiki.
20:00:11 -!- Taneb has changed nick to atriq.
20:00:57 <oerjan> YOU RUINED THE TOPIC
20:01:09 -!- atriq has changed nick to Taneb.
20:01:10 <Taneb> FINE
20:01:12 <Taneb> BE THAT WAY
20:01:22 <oerjan> always.
20:01:50 -!- Taneb has set topic: We eat clay | No I don't! Well, hardly any. | Taneb is atriq, just so you know | My other Taneb is a dead racehorse | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | http://esolangs.org/wiki.
20:01:57 <Taneb> That was bugging me
20:02:14 -!- ion has set topic: We eat clay | No I don't! Well, hardly any. | 我能吞下粘土而不伤身体。| Taneb is atriq, just so you know | My other Taneb is a dead racehorse | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | http://esolangs.org/wiki.
20:04:53 <oerjan> darn single-spacists
20:05:04 <Taneb> And the commas
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20:08:46 <kmc> but but but
20:08:58 <kmc> didn't the protagonists on the forest moon of endor have a critical influence on the outcome?
20:10:46 <kmc> oerjan: is the word "amortized"?
20:11:02 <oerjan> yep.
20:11:16 <kmc> you have to be careful about distinguishing between average-case analysis and amortized analysis, though
20:11:38 <kmc> "amortized O(1)" means that even in the worst case, a sufficiently long series of operations is *guaranteed* to average out to O(1)
20:12:54 <Arc_Koen> if xe're still talking about the two-stack queue then yes that's it
20:14:23 <kmc> there is an interesting relationship between amortized analysis and lazy data structures
20:14:48 <kmc> see: Okasaki's book
20:16:23 <kmc> this arises when you're working with functional / persistent data structures
20:16:58 <kmc> someone might hold on to an "old version" of the data structure and use it again in the future
20:17:26 <kmc> with the two-stack queue, i can hold on to the ([], back) state and execute that pop over and over
20:17:30 <kmc> which breaks the amortized guarantee
20:18:02 <Arc_Koen> interestingly, when I type "okasaki" in google it gives me crappy unrelated results, and suggests that I try "okazaki" instead. so I do, and it gives me relevant results with "okasaki" in the title
20:18:14 <kmc> but laziness involves updating thunks in place, which means the work is shared with "old version"s
20:18:55 <kmc> you use this to avoid spending the amortized "credits" more than once
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20:45:46 <oerjan> JaBoJa: you know rev only reverses each line separately, right?
20:46:34 <JaBoJa> Yes
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20:49:00 <kmc> rev | tac
20:49:12 <itidus21> note to self.. putting it simply minimize validation to allow cheats and glitches to work, and accidents to be interesting, and random data to be valid
20:51:20 <oerjan> also let the uranium flow freely
20:51:45 <JaBoJa> kmc: is there any way to use such a construct as an interpreter of shell script?
20:52:10 <kmc> which?
20:52:47 <JaBoJa> rev|tac
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20:56:36 <kmc> i don't know what you mean
20:56:46 <kmc> it just reverses every line and reverses the order of lines
20:58:38 <oerjan> even rev or cat alone don't really work for #! i think: the #! line itself gets printed
21:00:02 <oerjan> but if that is ok, you can probably do it with more than one shell line initially...
21:00:11 * oerjan doesn't remember the syntax
21:00:38 <JaBoJa> I tried, | does not work in interpreter definiotion (i.e. #!...)
21:01:34 <oerjan> i knew that. but you can put #!/bin/sh and then have some exec command as the next line
21:02:42 <JaBoJa> But it counts as cheating, as it becomes sh-script, not cat-script :P
21:03:03 <oerjan> well yeah. but | is a sh construction.
21:03:30 <JaBoJa> Ok, I understand now :)
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21:08:00 <kmc> you should write a shell script which is valid for all of sh, tac | sh, rev | sh, rev | tac | sh
21:08:05 <kmc> and does something different and interesting in each case
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21:11:06 <kmc> the other day I bought a recycling can from amazon
21:11:10 <kmc> it came in a cardboard box
21:11:20 <kmc> i took the can out of the box, broke down the box, and put it in the can
21:11:22 <kmc> it was amazing
21:13:06 <oerjan> sounds like something escher would have painted, if he'd thought of it
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21:24:06 <shachaf> `addquote <kmc> the other day I bought a recycling can from amazon <kmc> it came in a cardboard box <kmc> i took the can out of the box, broke down the box, and put it in the can <kmc> it was amazing
21:24:17 <HackEgo> 862) <kmc> the other day I bought a recycling can from amazon <kmc> it came in a cardboard box <kmc> i took the can out of the box, broke down the box, and put it in the can <kmc> it was amazing
21:30:15 <olsner> kmc: you should've taken pictures
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21:56:29 <Phantom_Hoover> someone name a type of hoover, quick
21:57:20 <oerjan> electrolux
21:57:50 <olsner> volta
21:58:24 <olsner> but these are brands
21:58:27 <Phantom_Hoover> oh wait, kirby's a type of hoover
21:58:31 <Phantom_Hoover> i meant brand
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23:19:23 <kmc> bad beef
23:20:26 * shachaf bade beef farewell 15 years ago.
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23:43:23 <Gregor> You guys.
23:43:32 <Gregor> I'm lost in a world of neotango electronica fusion.
23:43:35 <Gregor> It's weird and confusing.
23:43:36 <Gregor> Help me.
23:43:40 <Phantom__Hoover> kmc, what did beef do
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