< 1348704477 332802 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-5d81e92a.pool.mediaWays.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1348704910 631902 :monqy!~help@pool-98-108-214-230.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1348705288 544983 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I kinda want to write a GCC plugin! < 1348705291 743656 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i don't know what it would do < 1348705369 929934 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :@quote head < 1348705370 127570 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : says: head [] = peek . intPtrToPtr . fromIntegral . unsafePerformIO . randomRIO $ (0, 2^32) < 1348705429 405898 :pikhq_!~pikhq@75-163-132-98.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION blinks
< 1348705439 596062 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :looks unsafe < 1348705463 368850 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :What does this program to do? Receive random data from memory and then crash? < 1348705465 858100 :pikhq_!~pikhq@75-163-132-98.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :void*head(list*x){return *(void**)rand();} eh? < 1348705482 341092 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it would if there was an extra unsafePerformIO at the front < 1348705577 496931 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Good night, knock on wood < 1348705608 820572 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: It might not crash! < 1348705638 292521 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: What sort of interface do GCC plugins use? < 1348705642 181438 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :bad < 1348705647 517093 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :The gcc plugin one < 1348705649 415077 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't know < 1348705654 283672 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://forums.grsecurity.net/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=3043 < 1348705658 280539 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I suppose it might not crash, but it seems likely to crash as far as I can understand. < 1348705700 460110 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :void f() { read(open("/dev/urandom", O_RDONLY), f, 4096); } < 1348705712 886847 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently GHC supports plugins as of 7.2? < 1348705720 125097 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You should write a GHC plugin instead! < 1348705757 698839 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :But that's boring and useful < 1348705771 378103 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :doubtful < 1348705967 450692 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Why is there a generic memcpy() rather than copy_user_to_kernel, copy_kernel_to_kernel, and so on? < 1348705987 270745 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd think that you'd know which one you're doing most of the time, and you could have optional checks for it. < 1348706050 349002 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think memcpy() is effectively copy_kernel_to_kernel < 1348706053 2419 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just a familiar name < 1348706087 53531 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :copying userspace to userspace with memcpy would generally not be safe < 1348706134 483132 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, and I guess PaX provided that optional check. < 1348706147 646454 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :when copying from/to userspace, the kernel must explicitly check that the entire range lies within the userspace area of memory (e.g. under 0xC0000000 on i386), but the more fine-grained checking of "is every page mapped" is still up to the MMU < 1348706183 346952 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :which means that page faults within copy_{from,to}_user must be handled differently from other faults in kernel mode, which would oops the kernel < 1348706266 72644 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Linux has a general mechanism for annotating any instruction in the kernel with "if a fault happens here, jump here instead of oopsing" < 1348706413 697461 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :copy_{from,to}_user use this, and return the number of bytes that were not copied < 1348706429 351568 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and system call implementations will do something like if (copy_from_user(foo, bar, n)) return -EFAULT; < 1348706490 74284 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I guess the three cases that are relevant are covered by copy_from_user(), copy_to_user(), memcpy(). < 1348706553 248893 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, you might legitimately want to copy from userspace to userspace < 1348706563 497335 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just that the code for doing so needs some additional checks that the kernel memcpy does not need < 1348706591 608843 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it needs the bounds checks, and then it needs those "fixup" annotations in case of unmapped pages < 1348706601 180210 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right -- I mean that those three cases are covered explicitly. < 1348706659 352387 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i bet the fourth is implemented in the library as well < 1348706704 864416 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://lxr.linux.no/linux+v3.5.4/arch/x86/lib/usercopy_64.c#L55 < 1348706787 873922 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :also there are shortcuts for a single scalar -- put_user, get_user, etc. < 1348706810 885247 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and strncpy_from_user! < 1348706863 637250 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://blogs.oracle.com/ksplice/entry/anatomy_of_an_exploit_cve mentions the problem with interfaces that look like familiar things from userspace but have extra side conditions < 1348706899 677125 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy, tswett potato < 1348706919 957380 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :by the way, i-CAN-haz-MODHARDEN.c (an exploit for CVE-2010-2959) uses a faulting copy_from_user in an interesting way < 1348706935 59222 :Phantom__Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's this about potatos < 1348706945 253011 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, right, you potato too < 1348706969 112713 :Phantom__Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i hope this is not a racist joke at my irish heritage Sgeo < 1348707000 264241 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Homestuck IRC channel I'm in at one point said "potato" for updates. I forget why. < 1348707012 300141 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :specifically, it sends a packet from a partially unmapped buffer, in order to make some kernel code return after overflowing a kernel heap buffer but before zeroing that buffer < 1348707014 777218 :Phantom__Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :how would you like it if i said... jew food? < 1348707089 138616 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: That Ksplice Post Importer fellow sure wrote a lot of posts! < 1348707093 496150 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1348707165 989054 :tswett!~tswett@unaffiliated/tswett PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: village. < 1348707188 807551 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there some more accepted term for "potato" than "potato" that I'm not aware of? Maybe "potatoe" < 1348707274 836968 :monqy!~help@pool-98-108-214-230.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :@ask elliott 17:53:08 Is there some more accepted term for "potato" than "potato" that I'm not aware of? Maybe "potatoe" < 1348707275 69311 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider it noted. < 1348707278 364902 :monqy!~help@pool-98-108-214-230.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe he knows < 1348707328 490030 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :poтaтo < 1348707468 111929 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :boil 'em, mash 'em, stick 'em in a stew < 1348708026 961115 :Phantom__Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as an irishman i can say conclusively that the correct term is 'awful yellow thing that should just be burnt before it can inflict more suffering' < 1348708353 868161 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ritaljhhk7s < 1348709218 571058 :pikhq_!~pikhq@75-163-132-98.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :As an American, "Potato... Is that a kind of corn?" < 1348709982 313779 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1348710016 939554 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin JOIN :#esoteric < 1348710992 460723 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1348712210 254779 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 JOIN :#esoteric < 1348712254 564603 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hard challenge of the moment: try to come up with a 32 bit version of the 6502 that isn't grossly inefficient (without using out of order execution) < 1348712330 313373 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's really hard :D < 1348712441 788003 :JaBoJa!~kvirc@esc98.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1348712490 79792 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it really has too few registers < 1348712644 452036 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you can't put in instruction latencies anywhere < 1348712719 433243 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nothing has alignment requirements < 1348714201 501692 :Phantom__Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1348714941 592400 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :@quote newsham excitement < 1348714941 789148 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :newsham says: It's harder to get the same excitement you got from learning something new. Remember when recursion could blow your mind? Now you gotta use delimited continuations. < 1348715032 438380 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 QUIT :Quit: Radiateur < 1348715210 692087 :JaBoJa!~kvirc@esc98.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl QUIT :Quit: KVIrc 4.0.4 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/ < 1348715479 118020 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there some sort of proof about being able to fake any monad with continuations? < 1348715773 956141 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think it is exactly true; it is only partially. There is Cont monad, but you can also make many of monads using Codensity, and Cont really is a kind of Codensity as (Cont x) is like (Codensity (Const x)). < 1348715980 800040 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no idea what Codensity is < 1348716056 119161 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :newtype Codensity f x = Codensity (forall z. (x -> f z) -> f z); < 1348716140 37338 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1348716248 875706 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1348716364 107908 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wish there was a transform on executables such that, when the new executable tries to allocate memory and there isn't enough, it pops up a dialog saying that. If the user then closes other things then clicks ok on the dialog, the program resumes < 1348717415 622867 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :The instances for Codensity are the same as for Cont. < 1348717972 664839 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett, monqy potatoe < 1348718124 248132 :tswett!~tswett@unaffiliated/tswett PRIVMSG #esoteric :If Homestuck could do me a favor and stop updating for a while... < 1348718525 870772 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :@quote kmc: < 1348718526 66135 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: says: "monads are like containers, as long as you forget everything you know about containers, and treat it as a synonym for 'monad'" < 1348718530 928235 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :@quote kmc> < 1348718531 123152 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc> says: laziness unifies control flow and data flow the way that relativity unifies time and space < 1348718536 404156 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :@quote kmc_ < 1348718536 599120 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc_ says: $ ($) <$> < 1348718546 375338 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Get your nicks straight, @rememberers! < 1348718556 669941 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :@quote kmc: < 1348718556 863822 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: says: (): worst monoid ever < 1348718558 664061 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :@quote kmc_ < 1348718558 856835 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc_ says: agda is super mutant haskell < 1348718585 464021 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pretty sure that laziness is not intended for imperative control flow < 1348718673 806115 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :main = say "hi" >> main < 1348718876 673335 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's true < 1348718879 408749 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :about monads and containers < 1348719516 895922 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Combine a highly flammable element with the stuff that lets flames flame and you get a substance that can put out fires. < 1348719526 853568 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is amused by this for some reasons.
< 1348722589 165203 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t $ ($) <$> < 1348722590 131897 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :parse error on input `$' < 1348722593 24365 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yeah < 1348722651 723998 :monqy!~help@pool-98-108-214-230.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :@quote kmc__ < 1348722651 921510 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :No quotes match. It can only be attributed to human error. < 1348722863 264688 :itidus20!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1348722929 330066 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: hey < 1348722936 372592 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you want to read some draft legislation? < 1348722957 36019 :tswett!~tswett@unaffiliated/tswett PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should probably get to sleep. < 1348722975 302205 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :aww < 1348723090 876597 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1348723738 956092 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :If a site ceases to exist, and because of that, Internet Archive notices that there's no robot.txt and suddenly allows everyone access to all the stuff that was on the site, is it acceptable to use that? < 1348723976 998305 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :they don't use the historical robots.txt? < 1348724009 994948 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think so < 1348724043 899123 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, there wasn't a coherent robots.txt < 1348724044 778924 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Huh. < 1348724051 414646 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://web.archive.org/web/20110713042823/http://www.cybertown.com/robots.txt < 1348724876 239676 :kwertii!~kwertii@unaffiliated/kwertii QUIT :Quit: kwertii < 1348727643 125721 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyone playing magic the gathering? < 1348727657 909912 :carado!~user4539@2a01:e35:2e3d:3ef0:6ef0:49ff:fe73:1fd0 JOIN :#esoteric < 1348727889 412430 :itidus20!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au NICK :itidus21 < 1348728342 552291 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I sometimes play Magic: the Gathering cards < 1348729368 810576 :kinoSi!~kinosi@27-96-32-84.ipq.jp QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1348729396 182034 :kinoSi!~kinosi@27-96-32-84.ipq.jp JOIN :#esoteric < 1348730188 880431 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1348731183 907362 :kinoSi0!~kinosi@27-96-32-84.ipq.jp JOIN :#esoteric < 1348731371 762101 :kinoSi!~kinosi@27-96-32-84.ipq.jp QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1348732276 299562 :monqy!~help@pool-98-108-214-230.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net QUIT :Quit: hello < 1348733084 469033 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :i find it is tempting to think of anything with the same number of states as being identical. such as thinking heads and tails are exactly the same thing as 0 and 1 and exactly the same thing as black and white, but surely it cannot be so < 1348733173 213305 :pikhq_!~pikhq@75-163-132-98.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1348733222 529291 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Arpdoot < 1348733249 347636 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett, don't know if I should ping < 1348733475 118563 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-163-143-156.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1348733749 649584 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet JOIN :#esoteric < 1348733750 844232 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1348733778 313546 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1348734057 405303 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1348734158 26843 :mig22!~miguelort@bb116-15-0-183.singnet.com.sg JOIN :#esoteric < 1348734232 641911 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1348735598 565200 :Slereah_!~jackal@ANantes-259-1-223-46.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1348735770 448887 :Slereah!~jackal@ANantes-259-1-174-33.w90-49.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1348740294 276275 :david_werecat!~david_wer@24-52-224-101.cable.teksavvy.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1348740866 211692 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 JOIN :#esoteric < 1348741393 955380 :ion!ion@heh.fi QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1348741470 278384 :ion!ion@heh.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1348741779 915058 :ion!ion@heh.fi QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1348742024 152908 :ion!ion@heh.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1348743206 432909 :ion_!ion@heh.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1348743301 913184 :ion!ion@heh.fi QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1348743302 608484 :ion_!ion@heh.fi NICK :ion < 1348743481 300832 :mig22!~miguelort@bb116-15-0-183.singnet.com.sg QUIT :Quit: mig22 < 1348745398 209722 :ais523_!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1348745621 741296 :kinoSi0!~kinosi@27-96-32-84.ipq.jp QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1348745648 920661 :kinoSi!~kinosi@27-96-32-84.ipq.jp JOIN :#esoteric < 1348746156 481813 :carado!~user4539@2a01:e35:2e3d:3ef0:6ef0:49ff:fe73:1fd0 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1348746619 740577 :david_werecat!~david_wer@205.211.52.170 JOIN :#esoteric < 1348746793 825334 :davidwerecat!~david_wer@205.211.52.170 JOIN :#esoteric < 1348746954 709372 :david_werecat!~david_wer@205.211.52.170 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1348747155 758990 :ais523_!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 NICK :ais523 < 1348748209 786172 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yaaaay steam for linux beta in october < 1348748235 62333 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course it's only supported on ubuntu but it's a start < 1348748488 274962 :nortti!nortti@dsl-hkibrasgw3-ff25c000-52.dhcp.inet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :23:35 < Lumpio-> I think the builtin webkit browser in Android is good // it is complete shit on htc wildfire (2.2) < 1348748558 460059 :Slereah!~jackal@ANantes-259-1-223-46.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1348748632 616740 :Slereah!~jackal@ANantes-259-1-223-46.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1348748652 836390 :Slereah!~jackal@ANantes-259-1-223-46.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1348748757 436655 :Slereah_!~jackal@ANantes-259-1-223-46.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1348749109 874581 :Lumpio-!~matti@62-113-182-248.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti: 2.2 is also two and a half years old < 1348749131 56018 :Lumpio-!~matti@62-113-182-248.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consumer hardware usually falls behind enough to become sluggish in that time. < 1348749178 992712 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hardware runs slower as time goes by? < 1348749186 382152 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :That... explains a lot < 1348749338 407731 :Slereah_!~jackal@ANantes-259-1-223-46.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1348749483 47323 :nortti!nortti@dsl-hkibrasgw3-ff25c000-52.dhcp.inet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jafet: no. software just gets even more horribly bloated < 1348749505 554204 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, that's what the sloppy hardware manufacturers WANT YOU TO THINK. < 1348749537 459955 :Slereah!~jackal@ANantes-259-1-223-46.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1348749546 716613 :nortti!nortti@dsl-hkibrasgw3-ff25c000-52.dhcp.inet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :well why does it still run old software fast? < 1348749550 981401 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :The circuit paths get clogged up over the years by stray electrons, quantum wells dry up < 1348749570 230603 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :The old software has been broken in. < 1348749596 426549 :Slereah!~jackal@ANantes-259-1-223-46.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1348749669 951272 :Slereah!~jackal@ANantes-259-1-223-46.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1348749689 419017 :Slereah!~jackal@ANantes-259-1-223-46.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1348749771 428116 :Slereah_!~jackal@ANantes-259-1-223-46.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1348750251 53257 :Slereah!~jackal@ANantes-259-1-223-46.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1348750267 527442 :Slereah!~jackal@ANantes-259-1-223-46.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1348750725 543134 :boily!~boily@mtl.savoirfairelinux.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1348752416 256397 :ais523_!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1348752587 211792 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1348753620 835817 :davidwerecat!~david_wer@205.211.52.170 QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1348753667 717243 :david_werecat!~david_wer@205.211.52.170 JOIN :#esoteric < 1348753688 622733 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin QUIT :Quit: Computer has gone to sleep. < 1348753756 247122 :Jafet1!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet JOIN :#esoteric < 1348753812 127795 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1348754177 314386 :ais523_!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1348754384 919 :ais523_!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1348754477 707801 :ais523_!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1348754489 29044 :ais523_!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1348754854 83923 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin JOIN :#esoteric < 1348754996 535072 :boily!~boily@mtl.savoirfairelinux.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1348755183 534614 :boily!~boily@ip-208-88-110-45.savoirfairelinux.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1348756829 258909 :Nisstyre-laptop!~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre JOIN :#esoteric < 1348757460 736742 :Nisstyre-laptop!~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1348757522 390200 :Nisstyre-laptop!~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre JOIN :#esoteric < 1348758424 925414 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-89-197.as13285.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1348758524 838800 :ais523_!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 NICK :ais523 < 1348758599 552268 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-89-197.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I finally stopped reading Misfile today < 1348758655 287205 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal JOIN :#esoteric < 1348759168 970630 :Nisstyre-laptop!~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1348759562 333189 :augur!~augur@208.58.5.87 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1348759594 731988 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :atriq: You were so offended by the concept of christmas presents, right? < 1348759631 917482 :augur!~augur@208.58.5.87 JOIN :#esoteric < 1348759650 127272 :augur!~augur@208.58.5.87 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1348759881 789814 :davidwerecat!~david_wer@205.211.52.170 JOIN :#esoteric < 1348760034 716030 :david_werecat!~david_wer@205.211.52.170 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1348760254 2506 :KingOfKarlsruhe!~chatzilla@p5B133FBD.dip.t-dialin.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1348761006 593394 :tswett!~tswett@unaffiliated/tswett PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: nah, my RSS doodad will take care of it. < 1348761008 690607 :tswett!~tswett@unaffiliated/tswett PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thanks anyway. < 1348761456 663838 :augur!~augur@129-2-129-34.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1348761946 643213 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1348762608 485034 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :There seems to be 189 participants in the "Campus 2015" competition, where the objective is to "find new concepts and create a lively and interactive environment for research and learning activities wherein work, studies, leisure, and living are interwoven in a natural way and create the foundation for a university city of the future", or in practice plan 50000 m^2 of floor space for the ... < 1348762614 971076 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :... School of Arts, Design and Architecture who would presumably be moving in from their current place. < 1348762652 841435 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: I play mtg < 1348762680 252304 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Aalto University is a combination of three universities; one of technology, one of business, and one of arts. They all currently more or less live in their old campusises.) < 1348762719 405224 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, the submissions have been submitted under a pseudonym. Now, I haven't seen the entries, but purely based on the names, I hope "Purple Chicken" wins. < 1348762785 291055 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though I suppose a campus designed by THE HUG could possibly be very friendly too. < 1348763154 486534 :boily!~boily@ip-208-88-110-45.savoirfairelinux.net QUIT :Quit: Poulet! < 1348763266 89262 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: i think no matter what you do, an individual must undergo suffering < 1348763315 692134 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :i hate making general claims. i always need to take them back. < 1348763454 146299 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think i'm attracted to the grandeur of the general claim < 1348763636 859225 :sivoais!~zaki@199.19.225.239 QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1348763989 192018 :sivoais!~zaki@199.19.225.239 JOIN :#esoteric < 1348764179 583868 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1348764301 181914 :KingOfKarlsruhe!~chatzilla@p5B133FBD.dip.t-dialin.net QUIT :Read error: Connection timed out < 1348764344 967421 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT : < 1348764361 702651 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-89-197.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, hehe, I've been meaning to stop reading it for a while, never actually bothered < 1348765212 59910 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-89-197.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Realised I wasn't enjoying reading it at all a couple of weeks ago < 1348765258 757906 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-89-197.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think when you realise that reading something is a chore, it's a signal to stop reading < 1348765268 948182 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-89-197.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless you need to read it, for homework or something < 1348765401 526773 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric < 1348766592 737003 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-21-91.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1348766596 107325 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-21-91.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello < 1348766642 498198 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-89-197.as13285.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1348767287 628409 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :my sister is in the weirdest school play ever < 1348767305 358460 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :from what she showed me of the script it's a depressing ripped-from-the-headlines slice of life drama < 1348767337 882806 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then there's one scene where some obnoxious child is pestering her mother and then i swear to god, slenderman comes out of the fucking cupboard and drags her in < 1348767411 464426 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i read quite a long way ahead and it appears that this is never explained nor adequately developed upon < 1348768411 456410 :Lumpio-!~matti@62-113-182-248.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :...huh < 1348768803 670766 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know of slice of life as an anime genre, slenderman is an fps-like game < 1348768871 867550 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh iti is there anything you can't be wrong about < 1348768893 863324 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1348768949 282727 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION looks up slice of life at tvtropes
< 1348769085 804963 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah i quite like this trope < 1348769634 762161 :davidwerecat!~david_wer@205.211.52.170 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1348769710 233355 :david_werecat!~david_wer@205.211.52.170 JOIN :#esoteric < 1348770336 900390 :davidwerecat!~david_wer@205.211.52.170 JOIN :#esoteric < 1348770514 262503 :david_werecat!~david_wer@205.211.52.170 QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1348770617 554348 :atriq!~Taneb@host-2-99-89-197.as13285.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1348770873 110203 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Sounds very Slice of Life, yes. < 1348770887 533468 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: One of those average days… slenderman comes out and eats your child… very normal. < 1348770924 915065 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it's in many ways a kinder alternative to putting them into care < 1348771002 980153 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :the boogieman - protecting children from a broken childcare system since 1862 < 1348771045 14123 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in this case, more protecting the childcare system from annoying little shits < 1348771049 548234 :atriq!~Taneb@host-2-99-89-197.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know Slenderman as a nickname for a character in a slice of life drama about an insane guy with a friend who turns out to be insane too < 1348771114 676505 :atriq!~Taneb@host-2-99-89-197.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I got bored after the second season < 1348771132 495832 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :gripping stuff < 1348771281 460098 :atriq!~Taneb@host-2-99-89-197.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :He thought his camera was cursed or something < 1348771298 286180 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you mean marble hornets right < 1348771302 460791 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-2-99-89-197.as13285.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1348771320 86104 :atriq!~Taneb@host-2-99-89-197.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But he had a strange compulsion to film himself at all time < 1348771321 156138 :atriq!~Taneb@host-2-99-89-197.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :s < 1348771321 817232 :atriq!~Taneb@host-2-99-89-197.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes < 1348771328 605143 :atriq!~Taneb@host-2-99-89-197.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1348771332 715347 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-2-99-89-197.as13285.net NICK :atriq < 1348771337 187836 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh no < 1348771344 996470 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :slenderman got atriq < 1348771353 658153 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and turned him into taneb < 1348771480 679198 :atriq!~Taneb@host-2-99-89-197.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh no! < 1348771483 31825 :atriq!~Taneb@host-2-99-89-197.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not again! < 1348771509 979586 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-21-91.access.telenet.be QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1348772841 537557 :boily!~boily@mtl.savoirfairelinux.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1348773533 396008 :atriq!~Taneb@host-2-99-89-197.as13285.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1348773559 229422 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1348773801 942070 :davidwerecat!~david_wer@205.211.52.170 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1348773815 593373 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-89-197.as13285.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1348773986 538369 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : as an irishman i can say conclusively that the correct term is 'awful yellow thing that should just be burnt before it can inflict more suffering' <-- i guess that explains those famines < 1348774080 871512 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : Is there some sort of proof about being able to fake any monad with continuations? < 1348774089 46920 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :delimited ones, yes < 1348774104 780950 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Is this yellow thing the sun? < 1348774126 429142 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: i thought it was a potato < 1348774131 46248 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay. < 1348774137 516776 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't see the context. < 1348774143 209962 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1348774171 184911 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :In retrospect, you probably wouldn't speak of burning a sun. Or. Hm. < 1348774239 446710 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1348774279 341561 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, a sun that isn't burning isn't much of a sun. < 1348774303 8729 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh it was filinski not felleisen < 1348774304 916444 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia JOIN :#esoteric < 1348774312 37645 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it's not much of a burning, it's more of a fusing < 1348774331 474070 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary;jsessionid=C7DD144AB578DC0ADF2245B7EC33F65F?doi=10.1.1.43.8213 < 1348774848 178986 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : fizzie: i think no matter what you do, an individual must undergo suffering <-- i am trying hard not to believe that, but so far my evidence is sadly inadequate. < 1348774887 981484 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-89-197.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Suffering is relative < 1348774895 816631 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: its a very broad statement < 1348774905 22687 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :its not nearly specific enough < 1348774906 213267 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :atriq: i'm trying hard not to believe that, too :P < 1348774949 920259 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :after further reflection, i think the thing of it is, must undergo challenges < 1348774965 269234 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :and challenges can be percieved as suffering < 1348774976 413186 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :^perceived maybe < 1348774977 185176 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have this sort of meditation exercise which can make me convinced everything is ok with the world. and then collapses horribly. < 1348774984 576103 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now that you've copy-pasted it, I wonder if I'm supposed to read the "you" as referring to me, but the "individual" as to something < 1348774991 389753 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Someone else, I mean. < 1348775014 144376 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :So that no matter what I do someone else just keeps suffering as a direct result. < 1348775027 727619 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: yeah thats definitely not the case < 1348775033 893011 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats why i had to back up < 1348775040 758037 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :horribly enough that it's months between every time i try it. < 1348775052 214732 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :i got in a bitter argument about someone once who tried to claim that < 1348775084 72057 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh i think you and individual as synonyms though < 1348775734 752521 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-89-197.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, people who have lived a life of luxury will suffer in situations where those who have lived a life of poverty would be enthralled < 1348775744 299306 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-89-197.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :For instance < 1348775773 903326 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :my stumbling over words doesn't help < 1348775937 16040 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :atriq: sometimes i wonder, does the quality of past experiences matter in the present < 1348775989 697901 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh god are you idiots philosophising < 1348775990 322744 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PART #esoteric :"Leaving" < 1348776001 22150 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :then i wonder.. < 1348776017 656781 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :is the present constructed based on the past < 1348776041 668311 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :atriq: well ok _that_ way of avoiding suffering is relative, and temporary. (after a while, the mind readjusts to the new conditions.) < 1348776135 45920 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :the basic idea is that you can't solve the problems of being human < 1348776144 305412 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :a human will have problems in their life < 1348776150 328812 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess thats the better way to say it < 1348776157 379991 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :the problems can be solved one by one < 1348776161 797032 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :but they can't all be solved at once < 1348776181 459036 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least not by .. uhhh < 1348776194 354336 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :a committee < 1348776195 774323 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: that's a common idea, yes. doesn't mean it's right. < 1348776225 474580 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :a person needs to be able to own their problems < 1348776245 385377 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :it just means that it's how most people rationalize not having been able to find a real solution. < 1348776274 142436 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :buddha of course claimed he had one. < 1348776294 571491 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't like that one too much though. < 1348776351 529873 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok ok and.. < 1348776357 199146 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :humm < 1348776365 412432 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :and about 5 years ago, i thought i had found one. (see above meditation comment.) < 1348776370 897482 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :others can solve our problems.. but... theres no magical efficiency < 1348776385 119054 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :when it comes to trying to optimize solutions it gets absurd < 1348776521 58481 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i probably should start /ignoring itidus < 1348776543 871487 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :if im making myself anxious.. maybe you also < 1348776557 390531 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :watching your depression feeds mine < 1348776572 295986 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok humm < 1348776583 89723 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-89-197.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm... < 1348776589 304167 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i have a real topic < 1348776591 172462 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-89-197.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably insane to some degree < 1348776601 974114 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :You all are very productive at causing Phantom_Hoovers to flee, there's always that. < 1348776608 804439 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :so how do events work? < 1348776610 398620 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: yay! < 1348776615 417577 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :via a message loop? < 1348776617 11937 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps it could be used to generate energy or something? < 1348776622 721836 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-89-197.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should find one of those people who you give a lot of money and they say that you're only insane if it's what you really want to be < 1348776640 23860 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :on a low level, events work via interrupts right? < 1348776731 630583 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :^well hardware events < 1348776759 805160 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: well on common architectures, afaik < 1348776777 44325 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok so what am i trying to ask.. need to think < 1348776802 243936 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess the question is of how to not-poll < 1348776831 529872 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Via interrupts! < 1348776834 881916 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :events work in all kinds of ways < 1348776856 753912 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Events work in mysterious ways. < 1348776899 143866 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :as a hypothetical < 1348777013 11666 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :if i had , while(a==5) { b++;c++;d++;e++;f++;g++; } .. except i wanted the loop to stop at the very moment where the condition no longer held < 1348777038 127311 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :a bad example perhaps but maybe it has multiple threads or something < 1348777061 850483 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if its c++ then the ++ operator is possibly overloaded to change a < 1348777068 788593 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :>:-) < 1348777199 146791 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe thats just not possible without doing a conditional after every step < 1348777244 48926 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :It isn't, and shouldn't, be possible, since the correctness of the program depends heavily on what your definition of a step is. < 1348777312 398268 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :the impossible things sometimes look so nice since they would make things work more efficiently < 1348777312 707463 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :As an unrelated thing: Can you do Number a, b, c; c = a**b; resulting in c being a to the b'th power, in C++, by an overloaded Number::operator*() returning a NumberExp_ wrapper, and an overloaded Number operator*(Number a, NumberExp_ b) doing exponentiation? (If so, should you?) < 1348777369 644934 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric : oh iti is there anything you can't be wrong about no < 1348777383 15320 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :i rest my case < 1348777442 447395 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: You probably could, and doing so is punishable by death. < 1348777460 840646 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: that would not have the usual precedence wrt normal multiplication, would it < 1348777478 840421 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks gregor. i guess the solution then is to use subroutines < 1348777523 240705 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or #define BREAKPOINT if(a!=5)break and then sprinkle BREAKPOINT over your code. < 1348777589 648936 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :im thinking about a language which would have such a loop < 1348777600 241385 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-89-197.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just got really riled by something < 1348777604 152428 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-89-197.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like, seriously annoyed < 1348777609 320831 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-89-197.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I think I got angry < 1348777611 992879 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-89-197.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And now I am sad < 1348777633 811325 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 JOIN :#esoteric < 1348777639 249463 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION tries to remember that last thing atriq got riled by.
< 1348777649 427821 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you managed to rile atriq < 1348777651 640508 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :gj < 1348777654 613369 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-89-197.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not itidus21 < 1348777656 111981 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :people assuming that theres only one kind of < 1348777659 279387 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-89-197.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Different people < 1348777659 972060 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :something < 1348777683 529930 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey atriq < 1348777688 229550 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-89-197.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes? < 1348777694 925440 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :did you know dmm once said buffy wasn't very good < 1348777701 921664 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-89-197.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I... < 1348777707 476345 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-89-197.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Have never watched Buffy < 1348777726 925182 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-89-197.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, the last thing that made me really angry was DMM's opinion on Monopoly < 1348777742 241353 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know < 1348777748 457725 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-89-197.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow < 1348777752 707599 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-89-197.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :When was that < 1348777755 625501 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you told us how you wept at hearing your beloved monopoly savaged so < 1348777761 869523 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :all i can say is it's best not to play monopoly online < 1348777769 553318 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i thought you were a joss whedon person < 1348777784 651002 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-89-197.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm a Firefly and Avengers person < 1348777823 733942 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i love firefly fans < 1348777831 203108 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-89-197.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :This does not equate to being a Joss Whedon person < 1348777831 398284 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're all so delightfully bitter < 1348777847 367776 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-89-197.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not that bothered < 1348777877 752148 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why, hello there < 1348777885 344642 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-89-197.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not you, the other FireFly < 1348777894 87574 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-89-197.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The one with Nathan Fillion in it < 1348777896 241798 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :how did being cancelled make you feel, FireFly < 1348777902 100480 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-89-197.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you have Nathan Fillion in you? < 1348777909 821033 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hope not < 1348777939 617541 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :he wants to though < 1348777963 587805 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-89-197.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway < 1348777987 980019 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION swats fizzie -----###
< 1348777992 678208 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-89-197.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :My anger has transformed into sads < 1348777993 375177 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :Poor fizzie :( < 1348777994 626918 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-89-197.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1348777999 64884 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok i found it < 1348778002 99051 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric : That I'm annoyed that people assume there's only one kind of sign language < 1348778004 999807 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :why are you angry atriq < 1348778011 35196 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'd swat FireFly but my tab completion is acting up < 1348778013 122869 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-89-197.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :That was mild annoyance, itidus21 < 1348778018 264116 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is worse? < 1348778028 128491 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :he's positively miffed < 1348778035 816191 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-89-197.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, one of my friends plagiarised Homestuck really awfully < 1348778049 27082 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-89-197.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :In a "-stuck" fan adventure to begin with < 1348778062 224401 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :how would one of your friends be in a position to plagiarise homest-- how can you plagiarise homestuck in one of those < 1348778067 255968 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't just mean how is it possible < 1348778071 51881 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-89-197.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But a character's description was lifted phrase by phrase from Dave < 1348778071 607649 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :how can you be dumb enough to do it < 1348778080 639686 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe that was deliberate < 1348778083 295674 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-89-197.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I got annoyed < 1348778088 910572 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-89-197.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And he got annoyed that I got annoyed < 1348778089 106691 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm now it's completely correctly < 1348778090 160555 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :i like the monopoly board. the way it folds neatly to 1/4 it's size. and it was wonderful for the imagination < 1348778092 148215 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe it was what we in the trade call a `callback' < 1348778103 800379 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-89-197.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I didn't want to back down because I thought I was right < 1348778107 614712 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't think adults could imagine how much fun a child has playing monopoly < 1348778112 321244 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh < 1348778115 359956 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-89-197.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And he didn't want to back down because everybody else sided with him < 1348778122 81768 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i recall not enjoying monopoly at all < 1348778150 363670 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :honestly atriq you're such a lightweight < 1348778159 218308 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-89-197.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then he tried to fix it and he DID SOMETHING WRONG < 1348778164 928662 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-89-197.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :That turned out to be RIGHT ALL ALONG < 1348778167 902466 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-89-197.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And aaaaargh < 1348778181 469190 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-89-197.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I've had a bad day and too much caffeine < 1348778186 109938 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :just earlier today i got in a bitter dispute with some guys over whether one set of ships in a freespace mod was justified in looking like another set of ships < 1348778198 823135 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION taunts atriq with an interpretive dance in nicaraguan sign language
< 1348778199 205973 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :atriq: if you knew how i felt about homestuck, you might well swear to destroy me and everything i value < 1348778199 892076 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-89-197.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And for someone who doesn't drink tea or coffee that equates to any caffeine at all < 1348778207 281477 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-89-197.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nah < 1348778207 877610 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't even remember who i've argued with earlier than that, it's all one long blur of anger < 1348778215 43381 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-89-197.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're entitled to your opinions, itidus21. < 1348778231 143316 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :it frightens me that comic < 1348778245 775549 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :did you accidentally see that one flash with jade's dream < 1348778250 44850 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-89-197.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It shouldn't, but it's okay that it does < 1348778259 431553 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-89-197.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except the flash with Jade's Dream < 1348778259 913062 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :in an eerie unsettling way like what i expect alistair crowley's writing might do < 1348778264 279306 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-89-197.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the Squiddles album < 1348778296 76069 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you think homestuck is an annoying religion for disaffected teenagers? < 1348778329 680525 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats probably it < 1348778331 506718 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :atriq: I've been thinking, it seems rather logic to me that Fueue programs should end when they try to input but reach EOF < 1348778350 166798 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-89-197.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Homestuck IS an annoying religion for disaffected teenagers. < 1348778355 132752 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1348778357 701449 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-89-197.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Arc_Koen, hmm, I disagree < 1348778363 572175 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok i feel better < 1348778405 360428 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-89-197.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Arc_Koen, that means it can't output anything after it's run out of input < 1348778411 152682 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Arc_Koen: there are many programs you cannot write if a program halts immediately on EOF. such as tac... < 1348778414 493417 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-89-197.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like a "You inputted 107 characters" < 1348778432 776789 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :input in Fueue is a mean to "save" the program from an infinite no-op loop; if there is no input available, then it means there's nothing left to save the program from this no-op loop < 1348778454 527866 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's either that or you add a special EOF function < 1348778457 896084 :carado!~user4539@2a01:e35:2e3d:3ef0:6ef0:49ff:fe73:1fd0 JOIN :#esoteric < 1348778472 14065 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :note that this function could be ')' ("deblock"), for instance < 1348778478 327040 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :or EOF value... < 1348778479 641568 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-89-197.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or assign a number to represent the EOF "character" < 1348778487 810506 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-89-197.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And write Fueue programs to handle it < 1348778546 478179 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't like assigning a number - it means inputting that number is the same as inputting eof < 1348778555 973816 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw i have no idea how to handle Fueue input that is a negative number :) < 1348778586 511832 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Arc_Koen: um you use a number not equal to any character, duh < 1348778598 541954 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: well you could place it just after a - < 1348778612 208154 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-89-197.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aaah, you mean in the program? < 1348778617 860910 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-89-197.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course, and why not < 1348778626 622483 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Arc_Koen: ...then you couldn't handle the positive ones. < 1348778637 331165 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops. < 1348778672 453694 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :well don't we have a nice "compare with 0" function? < 1348778675 327283 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :atriq: The past tense of “input” is “input” >_> <_< < 1348778687 141205 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure how $ reacts to negativ numbers, actually < 1348778690 962015 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-89-197.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I deny that to the utmost degree, Gregor < 1348778703 264272 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-89-197.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Arc_Koen, implementation dependant, probably an error < 1348778732 78801 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Arc_Koen: yes but... if you compare with 0 you destroy all other information about the number < 1348778740 408524 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :put in < 1348778756 89140 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: double it, then compare the copy with 0 < 1348778777 150125 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's how we do it in most stack languages, right? < 1348778785 990743 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Arc_Koen: you cannot copy it because : won't wait until the number has been input < 1348778801 720826 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm < 1348778801 915037 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-89-197.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fueue is a ridiculous language. < 1348778808 154771 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :So what happens when you do : and then want to do something with the number < 1348778812 494998 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-89-197.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I highly recommend that you do not try to seriously program with it < 1348778827 439579 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know, oerjan did prove it was turing-complete < 1348778835 619531 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-89-197.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which really surprised me < 1348778866 926953 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :FreeFull: the problem is only while you are actually inputting a character, once you have managed to get it into a stable form you can use : just fine. < 1348778881 660844 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :though once again I'm of the opinion we need to include some notions of input and output to the whole turing-completeness thing < 1348778898 51967 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :cool, so i'm experiencing not understanding youth culture < 1348778900 79656 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: No, and the associativity would be wrong too. < 1348778917 34606 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :You only need the ability to provide initial data < 1348778963 639903 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-89-197.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21, Homestuck is a subculture at best < 1348778988 263075 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :FreeFull: yes, I'm just saying we should consider the fact that this initial data can be read with what a language specs describe as "input" < 1348779008 151247 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-89-197.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :A Turing-Machine lacks input < 1348779008 529486 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, compare those two models: < 1348779012 274117 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-89-197.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lambda Calculus lacks input < 1348779019 890117 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-89-197.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wang Tiles lack input < 1348779025 866743 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-89-197.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Wang Tiles are really odd, though) < 1348779080 12708 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :atriq: that's my point; when proving a language is equivalent to the set of turing-machines, I find it's not what the language is supposed to be that we're proving tc < 1348779145 507214 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can say a turing-machine does have input, in the form of the initial content of the tape (and the program is the automaton hooked to it) < 1348779161 25643 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :atriq: No, the code is the input < 1348779169 80037 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :Data is code, code is data < 1348779182 663928 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-89-197.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, yeah < 1348779196 982281 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can designate certain parts as code and certain parts as data if you really want to < 1348779198 363732 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but when you're proving that brainfuck's subset <>+-[] is turing-complete, I feel you're not proving *actual* brainfuck, as the *usable* programming language, is turing-complete < 1348779224 52872 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-163-143-156.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Arc_Koen: The more appropriate way of modelling I/O on a Turing machine is to claim it's got three tapes, one of which you can only read and move, and one of which you can only write and move. < 1348779245 79271 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-163-143-156.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bit of a hack, but that's basically what's going on. < 1348779247 359636 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :What about the third tape? < 1348779251 144549 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :FreeFull: that's my point; if a language specs say that it has an input instruction, then the data shouldn't be considered part of the code, but what's accessible via that input instruction < 1348779264 599241 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-163-143-156.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :FreeFull: That's the normal tape. < 1348779281 735873 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, you're adding IO < 1348779285 219931 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-163-143-156.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :You've got an in tape, an out tape, and a RAM tape. < 1348779286 98304 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-163-143-156.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1348779296 143135 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: well, yes, I would very much agree with that representation < 1348779302 728905 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Arc_Koen: proving a subset of a language TC proves the entire language TC (as long as it's computable in the first place) < 1348779305 822245 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :Arc_Koen: Then you can have data in both places < 1348779319 161096 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: what I'm saying is you've proven something else TC < 1348779342 852148 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :by not considering the language's input and output facilities, you're "defining" input and output as something else < 1348779345 405798 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-163-143-156.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And, incidentally, you can with some difficulty emulate multiple tapes on a single-tape Turing machine. < 1348779350 690435 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: How would you do IO with lambda calculus? < 1348779367 503336 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-163-143-156.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Meaning that I/O is basically irrelevant for TC-ness. < 1348779383 697742 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-163-143-156.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :FreeFull: Probably the Lazy K way. < 1348779388 564085 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1348779395 410789 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-163-143-156.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Input is an argument, output is the result. < 1348779411 316556 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems to me that input might involve editing the program < 1348779431 528797 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that .. humm < 1348779441 3023 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: for instance, what did you use as "the argument" and "the result" in your proof that 3-cell brainfuck is tc? < 1348779449 240049 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok guys.. just ignore what i said ur on a good topic keep going < 1348779463 723384 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: I'm going to a pre-release for Return to Ravnica < 1348779472 290126 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :you get a bunch of boosters, an intro pack, and a promo card. < 1348779476 981427 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you play a tournament < 1348779485 599984 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I think the promo card is only legal for that tournament though) < 1348779506 727565 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-163-143-156.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: The promo is generally legal. < 1348779516 908666 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh I see < 1348779518 446078 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Arc_Koen: the initial and final cell value, mostly. you do have some point - i know how to turn input into the right format but i think it may be impossible to turn a final cell value into an arbitrary output string. < 1348779542 211266 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-163-143-156.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :They're merely a slightly weird foil. To be illegal they'd have to have a weird border, weird card back, weird size, or some such. < 1348779553 544901 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-163-143-156.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or, obviously, be declared explicitly illegal. < 1348779557 551299 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1348779578 94057 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the problem is, when someone says "hey I just proved this new language to be TC", we don't know what he's talking about < 1348779584 130784 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-163-143-156.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, funnily enough, the promo is *not* legal for that tournament. < 1348779587 59402 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm sad that my 2012 blue/green/black graveyard deck is leaving Standard. :( < 1348779593 63849 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know of any local places that play Extended < 1348779631 47662 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: that must vary by location. the place I'm going to said that it will be legal < 1348779631 961819 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-163-143-156.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because the tournament format for a prerelease is limited, the only legal cards are the ones in the boosters you get. < 1348779639 67801 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then someone else will prove a second language TC, using that first language's TCness... but there's a chance he's not using the same definition of input and output, so I'm not sure the proof stands < 1348779652 783354 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: On the other hand, a^b with an overloaded operator^ is even worse: a + b * c^d == e <=> (a + b * c)^(d == e) ! < 1348779664 826472 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-163-143-156.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: DCI rules say otherwise. < 1348779705 534218 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : it seems to me that input might involve editing the program <-- precisely! as i did for ///, btw < 1348779706 163848 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's like someone says "Simon likes eggs" because he's seen Simon taking part in an egg-throwing battle < 1348779719 502912 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then someone else says "Simon likes eggs, therefore he likes omelettes" < 1348779834 344704 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: have you looked at the new set? it's pretty interesting < 1348779845 332618 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: ironically LC still puzzles me a great deal. < 1348779908 721791 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Arc_Koen: my philosophy of TC-ness is that you include _both_ input and code in the initial setup for your computational model, and are permitted to use both as part of what you convert e.g. a turing machine including input tape into. and similarly for output. < 1348779927 465429 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think i am suspending finding out what LC actually is so i can imagine it is something even better < 1348779947 863618 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically, since distinguishing input and code doesn't make sense for all models e.g. LC, you should never consider them truly distinct < 1348779976 43470 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm starting to think that the alternate universe Darths and Droids linked to from strip 50 are randomised. < 1348779996 868588 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :well my philosophy is that the claim "this language is TC" should always be accompanied by a more precise description of what is meant by "this language" < 1348780008 626956 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-89-197.as13285.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1348780055 257849 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric : i find it is tempting to think of anything with the same number of states as being identical. such as thinking heads and tails are exactly the same thing as 0 and 1 and exactly the same thing as black and white, but surely it cannot be so < 1348780074 32473 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Arc_Koen: oh hm i guess the point brainfuck is dubious is that you could either consider the final tape contents part of the output (as is done for turing machines) or not (as is done for many other languages) < 1348780074 295731 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :this probably counts for program and code too < 1348780080 582969 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*point where < 1348780088 231016 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :precisely < 1348780088 426490 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :^program and input < 1348780125 809587 :carado!~user4539@2a01:e35:2e3d:3ef0:6ef0:49ff:fe73:1fd0 QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1348780154 691858 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Arc_Koen: i think my 3-cell method suffices only for the former if you want arbitrary results, although the latter works for recognition machines < 1348780170 189151 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :HOW MANY OF THESE DAMN THINGS ARE THERE < 1348780204 322061 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: yeah, I'm planning to play prereleases oto < 1348780205 304163 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :well collatz functions are definitely on my list of "things you should look at" and your proof comes right after them < 1348780205 928435 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :*too < 1348780206 379128 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless someone can find a clever way of converting an unbounded cell value to an output string in 3-cell brainfuck. < 1348780213 796979 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: pikhq: I've never played limited before. should be interesting < 1348780220 606453 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's lots of fun < 1348780229 345200 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently there's no 4 card limit, and you can have a huge sideboard and you don't have to swap one-to-one < 1348780243 818272 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1348780252 87614 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoa.. < 1348780253 158072 :boily!~boily@mtl.savoirfairelinux.net QUIT :Quit: Poulet! < 1348780275 476723 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : I'm starting to think that the alternate universe Darths and Droids linked to from strip 50 are randomised. <-- um no. there's a long chain of them. < 1348780292 9405 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I definitely tried following this before! < 1348780315 526921 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :they _have_ sometimes added information to older ones, iirc < 1348780340 596886 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are like 20 of these I've never seen! < 1348780365 301790 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.darthsanddroids.net/hypnotoads/0050.html < 1348780372 60894 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the second bullet point is golden in this one < 1348780377 660548 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: afair there is one for every 50 D&D + one because they somehow forgot to delay the one they'd been intending when they hurriedly made the avatar one < 1348780415 199124 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ahhhh < 1348780423 354933 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i suspected they were updating them < 1348780446 541524 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, expect another one in 15 strips :) < 1348780551 797622 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: do you think Fueue would be TC, using its input system as input, if EOF halted execution? < 1348780705 533048 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Arc_Koen: sure, just use an LR(0) input format so that the EOF is never read. (e.g. an unlambda 1 interpreter could be made, ignoring final comments.) < 1348780722 866936 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :LR(0)? < 1348780757 732501 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :LR(0) means a grammar where you don't need to look at the next token to know whether a production has ended. < 1348780805 110305 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :... that didn't sound honest < 1348780883 716465 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :("can you hold a conversation with french-speaking people?" "sure, as long as they use an english-encoding of their french sentences") < 1348780891 270647 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Arc_Koen: you probably want to be requiring that the input is interpreted precisely as in a normal program language then? in which case the answer is no, you cannot implement tac or wc. and in which case it also has nothing to do with TC-ness. < 1348780927 129060 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Arc_Koen: the whole _point_ of TC-ness is that you're allowed to apply an arbitrary (terminating) encoding to the incoming and outgoing information. < 1348780941 831729 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm yes ok that makes sense < 1348781096 585784 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : the second bullet point is golden in this one <-- DMM made a relevant comment on that, let me look it up... < 1348781303 361340 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1348781412 507576 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :darn i think it got deleted < 1348781463 258477 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was basically "i see nothing needing editing", anyway < 1348781479 959642 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: I always play limited. < 1348782929 569961 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i suspect that it is impossible to determine in 3-cell brainfuck whether an unbounded cell value is even or odd without destroying most of the information in it < 1348782959 261413 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/determine/extract/ < 1348783000 361846 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can do arbitrary calculations but you cannot get the information out of that one cell < 1348783018 702308 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(counterproofs welcome) < 1348783058 455238 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin QUIT :Quit: Computer has gone to sleep. < 1348783921 93457 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT :Quit: Sleepzzzzzzzz < 1348784797 701942 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :job for tomorrow: prove that 3-cell reversible brainfuck is not TC < 1348784850 729942 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1348784937 70773 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you think of a way to prove that a language is not TC, other than a) writing a compiler to a known not-TC language (and by language I include automata) and b) solving the halting problem for it < 1348784989 345302 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I'll count "proving that it does not allow for infinite loops" as a subset of solving the halting problem) < 1348785000 60051 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1348785033 730210 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and there was supposed to be an interrogation mark! it's a question!) < 1348785080 844176 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :showing that there is some problem it cannot solve, i guess < 1348785112 843982 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@209-6-232-56.c3-0.sbo-ubr1.sbo.ma.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1348785117 782665 :pumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin JOIN :#esoteric < 1348785123 949 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :although how would you do that without having (a) or (b)... < 1348785134 423044 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@209-6-232-56.c3-0.sbo-ubr1.sbo.ma.cable.rcn.com NICK :Guest7740 < 1348785153 826538 :Guest7740!~copumpkin@209-6-232-56.c3-0.sbo-ubr1.sbo.ma.cable.rcn.com QUIT :Client Quit < 1348785207 269063 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not supposed to be a very interesting, nor formal, question - it's ok if a) or b) can be inferred from the proof, I was just wondering about other "ideas" for proofs < 1348785223 607048 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am not familiar enough with the known theory to remember if there is a well-known example of a non-TC language whose halting problem _isn't_ decidable. < 1348785240 15647 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :or a proof none exist < 1348785321 863512 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :the two non-TC proofs i mentioned in my article page were done essentially by (b), although for subtle cough you might consider it (a) as well. < 1348785369 877920 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and by writing a compiler I include a human description of the translation) < 1348785370 822656 :pumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin NICK :copumpkin < 1348785420 693349 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :all the non-TC subsets of underload were essentially about always halting < 1348785432 423469 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*-essentially < 1348785497 85232 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I added REVER to Truth-machine implementations < 1348785557 887168 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Arc_Koen: oh and there's always the matter of not having unbounded memory, although you could consider that as compiling to FSAs... < 1348785594 819295 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :or linear bounded automata, if it's only that it cannot grow after the beginning < 1348785631 106018 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw the bounded-storage machine category on the wiki is empty! < 1348785637 392462 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1348785669 404781 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right, it was never properly discussed < 1348785679 256341 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's kind of weird considering I'm sure at least a handful of handfuls of languages on the wiki were inspired by their first implementation < 1348785691 626285 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :To you think the truth-machine in REVER is OK? < 1348785695 681420 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :and no one ever acted on my delete request < 1348785718 904575 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Arc_Koen: what? < 1348785748 479694 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, imagine I have an idea for a new language < 1348785761 369530 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I write an interpreter / compiler / whatever for it < 1348785769 149221 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then I write an esolang wiki page < 1348785791 172684 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I basically use my implementation as the specs < 1348785839 620811 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Arc_Koen: OK, but what is your idea? < 1348785840 714284 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :naturally integers are bounded, and if it's, say, tape-based, then the tape is bounded as well (cause I was too lazy to make it an unbounded lazy structure) < 1348785876 489110 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: actually I have a few ideas in mind! < 1348785889 10710 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I should write my user page and put them there < 1348785985 419886 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :a language based on mario kart (or any other race), where instructions affect certain cars, either "at a certain time" or "at a certain location" (and cars are objects with a position, a speed, an acceleration, and probably even the next derivative) < 1348785985 948964 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK < 1348786055 606230 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :a nondeterministic/probabilistic language based on a monopoly-like game, where a program is a setup of the board + number of players and such, and the players roll dice and are affected by the board < 1348786142 419630 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :a nondeterministic/probabilistic language similar to Knight Shuffling Tower: there's a main data structure (probably a queue), but its "pop" function pops into a variable... except there are a handful of variables which all have the same name (and one is selected at random every time a variable must be used) < 1348786174 595070 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I think I had a few others as well but they're not coming to mind at the moment :( < 1348786200 306820 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you have idea, write it on List of ideas. < 1348786236 534475 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the whole esolang thing is growing out of control in my head - every time I take part in a new activity, it goes "hey, this would be a cool idea for an esolang!"... < 1348786251 55578 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :for instance the other day I played a monopoly-like game with friends < 1348786270 973994 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it turned out to be pretty different from the actual monopoly, though, because there was SO MUCH inflation in it) < 1348786477 631598 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the regular monopoly there isn't really any inflation - you get income every time you reach start, but you invest it in ownership (or whatever it's called). all other operations are 0-sum: money transits from a player to another < 1348786581 937880 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :in that game your income was a function of your number of houses, and you could buy bonds on houses, and the simple fact of buying more bonds made the value of bonds increase < 1348786670 517633 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and investment was mostly free as your score was the sum of your cash, bonds, and houses (so buying a house is basically converting cash into a house, but does not affect your score) < 1348786747 912678 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, that was fun :) we were three humans and one computer, and the computer took a good lead at some point, BUT THEN I WON which of course made it all the more fun < 1348786802 321713 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :naturally. < 1348786808 417116 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I've been meaning to read the REVER page ever since you started posting it on the wiki, but I never know where to start - I feel it lacks a "language overview" or something < 1348786846 796247 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Arc_Koen: But I don't know what to write in the overview. Anyone who does read it, could add it if they know what to write in the overview. < 1348786850 889806 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it basically starts with "it's reversible, you can write comments, and most operations have the same operators as in C < 1348787009 412108 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I know not very good to write overview like that; I only have the first sentence which isn't much. < 1348787015 682352 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :so for instance I start reading the beginning, then I start scrolling down, then I see something that looks interesting (namely "bijections"), so I search what is a bijection (cause being able to take an inverse is neat but you have to have the other thing first) aaaaaaaand I don't find it < 1348787037 358309 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :example programs can also help < 1348787074 237780 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I made a section for the examples I didn't put any in yet. But I did write the example for truth-machine on that page. < 1348787079 308819 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :or some kind of BNFish description (though in languages "that look like C" such a description might look like something horrible) < 1348787198 387954 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(also I have some childhood issues with the word "subroutines" so that doesn't help) < 1348787367 100487 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw zzo38 I was trying to remember the name of a language which main operation is to move stuff from input to output and from output to input, and I seem to recall you created that language (though I may be wrong) < 1348787381 692354 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know. < 1348787424 316751 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :then maybe it isn't you - I haven't found it on your wiki user page < 1348787653 287718 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(sometimes my mind associate some people with some stuff even though there seem to be no link between the two) < 1348787846 489380 :augur!~augur@129-2-129-34.wireless.umd.edu QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1348788331 703003 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm didn't i see that the other day < 1348788441 117370 :NihilistDandy!~ND@65-183-140-119-dhcp.burlingtontelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1348788649 782263 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am making Famicom Hangman. If the microphone is available, it will use it as part of the random number generator. < 1348788862 584137 :kinoSi!~kinosi@27-96-32-84.ipq.jp QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1348788889 901686 :kinoSi!~kinosi@27-96-32-84.ipq.jp JOIN :#esoteric < 1348789366 166247 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net QUIT :Quit: that's dr. turing to you, punk < 1348789607 705329 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :BBC headline: "Nazi Buddha originally from space" < 1348789610 50967 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :article disappoints < 1348789953 307396 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :how can that disappoint without outright lying < 1348789989 219341 :NihilistDandy!~ND@65-183-140-119-dhcp.burlingtontelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Technically not a lie. < 1348789994 378938 :NihilistDandy!~ND@65-183-140-119-dhcp.burlingtontelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Technically not as cool as it sounds. < 1348790115 128737 :augur!~augur@208.58.5.87 JOIN :#esoteric