←2012-10-14 2012-10-15 2012-10-16→ ↑2012 ↑all
00:00:25 <kmc> not as hardy as stop-karts
00:02:05 <kmc> are those real russian words?
00:02:09 <kmc> up there a bit
00:02:13 <kmc> google can't translate most of them
00:02:27 <kmc> хьюэлоняющие
00:19:33 <luite> whoah i didn't know kmc was still alive!
00:19:42 <kmc> hi luite
00:19:46 <luite> hi kmc :)
00:19:52 <luite> you coming to bahug? ;)
00:24:11 <elliott> kmc: don't lie, you'd play webcarting.
00:24:34 <elliott> at least I would
00:26:28 <Phantom_Hoover> i went go-karting once
00:26:31 <Phantom_Hoover> it was terrifying
00:26:48 <kmc> i almost went drunk go-karting in montenegro but decided against it
00:26:51 <kmc> beacuse i am lame
00:28:07 <elliott> > ord '@' - ord 'r'
00:28:08 <lambdabot> -50
00:36:59 <FreeFull> > ord '@'
00:37:00 <lambdabot> 64
00:37:05 <FreeFull> :t ord
00:37:06 <lambdabot> Char -> Int
00:37:35 <FreeFull> What's ord in?
00:37:54 <pikhq_> Prelude
00:38:43 <FreeFull> No it isn't
00:38:58 <FreeFull> At least not according to ghci
00:39:04 <pikhq_> Bah
00:39:55 <ion> shachaf: Ok, i’m back and i felt like doing it. toList t = toList' (:) t []; toList' f (Leaf a) = f a; toList' f (Node t) = toList' (\(a,b) -> f a . f b) t
00:41:18 <ion> toList' needs a type signature, type inference seems unable to handle it. toList' :: (a -> b -> b) -> Tree a -> b -> b
00:41:19 <elliott> FreeFull: Data.Char
00:41:34 <elliott> ion: This is data Tree a = Leaf a | Node (Tree (a, a)) right?
00:41:39 <ion> yeah
00:42:03 <FreeFull> elliott: This will be of great use to me
00:42:03 <elliott> ion: Doesn't this work? toList (Leaf a) = [a]; toList (Node t) = toList (fmap fst t) ++ toList (fmap snd t)
00:42:26 <shachaf> ion: I have toList (Leaf x) = [x]; toList (Node t) = concatMap (\(x,y) -> [x,y]) (toList t)
00:42:37 <shachaf> Also needs a type signature.
00:42:42 <shachaf> Yours is more efficient, I guess.
00:43:16 <shachaf> ion: Now write fromList!
00:43:23 <ion> elliott: toList (Node (Node (Leaf ((4,5),(6,7))))) = [4,6,5,7]
00:44:11 <elliott> ion: s/++/`interleave`/ then?
00:44:53 <shachaf> I think I get elliott's behavior if I use unzip instead of the thing I did.
00:45:22 <elliott> anyway ion's implementation is obviously wrong because it's ugly
00:46:56 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
00:53:50 <ion> foldMap f (Leaf a) = f a; foldMap f (Node t) = foldMap (\(a,b) -> f a <> f b) t
00:54:08 <ion> and get toList for free
00:57:48 <elliott> isn't your toList' just fold with a wonky argument order anyway
00:58:13 <elliott> ion: btw fold > foldMap
00:58:23 <elliott> i guess it's actually more awkward here though :/
00:58:41 <elliott> fold (Leaf a) = a; fold (Note t) = fold $ fmap (uncurry mappend) t?
01:01:01 <elliott> pikhq_: what's the one that isn't twisted neumatic called
01:01:06 <elliott> IPS, thanks
01:02:03 <elliott> ooh you can get IPS monitors cheapish nowadays??
01:02:05 <elliott> thanks monqy
01:03:26 <kmc> yeah they are pretty cheap now
01:03:34 <ion> elliott: Yeah, that works. But you’ll also have to define foldMap f = fold . fmap f (or alternatively, foldr).
01:03:50 <elliott> ion: pretty sure that's a default in Foldable
01:04:05 <ion> elliott: Alas, it isn’t.
01:04:19 <ion> The default foldMap uses foldr and the default foldr uses foldMap.
01:04:43 <elliott> kmc: yeah this ASUS one is surprisingly cheap ($175 for 23" LED/IPS), downsides are seemingly that it has a really ugly placement of buttons jutting out from the bottom that would annoy me endlessly & that it actually has less than 96 ppi
01:04:48 <ion> elliott: http://techreport.com/review/23291/those-27-inch-ips-displays-from-korea-are-for-real
01:04:53 <elliott> also it's asus and I seem to recall their displays are shit
01:04:58 <elliott> so
01:05:06 <elliott> I guess what I mean is they started selling bad IPS displays
01:05:35 <elliott> oh it brags about 5 ms response time too
01:05:41 <kmc> there are no-brand korean IPS monitors for really cheap
01:06:04 <elliott> ion apparently just linked to that
01:06:12 <elliott> 27" is too big though :( i'm too small to use a 27" display
01:06:39 <kmc> http://www.overclock.net/t/1225919/yamakasi-catleap-monitor-club
01:06:42 <kmc> ah yeah
01:07:01 <kmc> i have three dell IPS monitors at work
01:07:37 <elliott> also they look too high-ppi for 2012
01:07:47 <kmc> but i spent an unreasonable amount of money on them
01:07:58 <elliott> everyone is still using pixels so I cannot buy a high-enough ppi monitor without annoyingness :(
01:08:35 <kmc> if you want a 24" 16:10 monitor i like the Dell U2412M
01:08:38 <kmc> it's about $300 at newegg
01:08:55 <elliott> mm
01:09:00 <elliott> i can't actually buy things from newegg because i am in the uk
01:09:06 <elliott> I just find stuff on newegg and then pray someone sells it in the UK
01:09:09 <kmc> heh
01:09:14 <kmc> well i'm sure someone does sell this
01:09:18 <elliott> and it is always for like twice the price when I do
01:09:24 <kmc> they actually don't sell to UK or is the exchange rate just horrible?
01:09:31 <elliott> they don't ship to uk
01:09:34 <elliott> or at least
01:09:36 <elliott> didn't years ago
01:09:37 <elliott> maybe they do now
01:09:45 <ion> elliott: Say hi from me to the queen.
01:10:13 <elliott> kmc: this one is 8 ms, it must be good
01:10:19 <kmc> yeah i've heard you basically pay the same number of pounds as the US dollar price :/
01:10:26 <kmc> for electronics in the UK
01:10:27 <elliott> how to judge monitors: look at the advertised response time
01:10:29 <elliott> the higher it is, the better
01:10:39 <ion> And the dynamic contrast ratio.
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01:11:36 <elliott> kmc: i'm annoyed that the 14" displays are always 1920xwhatever
01:11:47 <elliott> the ppi!!!!! so low!!
01:11:49 <elliott> er
01:11:49 <elliott> 24"
01:11:51 <kmc> all displays are 1920xwhatever basically
01:11:56 <elliott> yeah
01:12:15 <ion> http://i.imgur.com/E00nl.gif
01:12:21 <elliott> anyway i hear dell monitors are good
01:12:24 <elliott> so maybe I should just look at those
01:12:28 <ion> The cheap Korean ones are 2560×something
01:12:53 <elliott> i should get an IBM T221
01:13:10 <elliott> conspicuous consumption and all that
01:13:29 <kmc> hopefully the PC hardware industry will copy apple's retina display, like they copy everything else
01:13:37 <ion> kmc: Indeed.
01:13:57 <ion> About time to get a bit less sucky DPI values.
01:14:00 <elliott> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/64/IBM_T221.jpg
01:14:07 <elliott> ibm t221, because you don't want to be able to see your xterms
01:14:24 <elliott> i think it actually shows itself as multiple displays to the graphics card or whatever
01:14:30 <elliott> so you have to set up a multi-monitor OS setup to get it working
01:15:12 <ion> Ah, someone i know on IRC has one.
01:15:33 <kmc> only updates at 41 Hz :/
01:16:05 <elliott> kmc: you only get so much from 2001 tech
01:17:27 <elliott> [[You see, shortly after I mentioned on Twitter that I'd ordered one of these monitors, my friend Jeff Atwood of StackOverflow and SuperUser fame decided to order three of them on my "recommendation." Vaguely terrified, I tried to explain that my review was still forthcoming, but he wasn't dissuaded.]]
01:17:29 <elliott> thanks jeff atwood
01:17:59 <elliott> ion: you forgot to mention how the buttons are broken
01:18:19 <elliott> good thing i am the kind of awful person who uses their display at full brightness always
01:19:06 <elliott> oh
01:19:08 <elliott> the buttons are just complicated
01:19:09 <elliott> great
01:19:20 <ion> Buttons? You don’t need buttons where we are going.
01:19:53 <elliott> "I fairly quickly realized that the flashing power LED above the buttons was an indicator: the faster or slower it flashed, the higher or lower the volume."
01:20:17 <elliott> it is a good thing i don't have any use for in-monitor speakers
01:20:21 <elliott> because ha ha LED that flashes constantly
01:20:26 <ion> elliott: Please tell your Amazon to ship (sorry, “dispatch”) my booke quickly.
01:20:31 <kmc> theff atwood
01:20:54 <elliott> ion: sorry but amazon is a bookstore not a bookestore looks like you got mislead!!!
01:20:58 <kmc> elliott: I like to think that quote is about the T221
01:21:04 <ion> bookstor
01:21:25 <kmc> bokehstore
01:22:10 <elliott> kmc: sorry it's about the korean things
01:22:13 <elliott> sory
01:22:33 <elliott> i would like to live in a world where equipment does not have awful status LEDs
01:23:26 <kmc> sometimes i disable them
01:23:35 <kmc> hack your annoying LED using tape
01:23:41 <elliott> that's work though
01:23:42 <elliott> yes tape works
01:23:44 <elliott> but tape is also sort of gross
01:23:50 <kmc> on one computer i soldered a 10 kΩ resistor in series with the power LED
01:24:16 <kmc> hm i bet i could sell a power LED dimmer that just plugs into the motherboard header
01:24:47 <kmc> and then i could sell the Y3TI MUTILAT0R XTREME GAMER EDITION of that for $50
01:25:21 <elliott> i think i know what happens next in this annual effort to upgrade my computer to something better than a toshiba half-laptop-half-netbook-from-a-few-years-ago
01:25:26 <elliott> it's keyboard obsessiveness :(
01:30:07 <elliott> "The fact that these two monitors are in a dead heat in response times comes as little surprise, since they both appear to lack an internal chip dedicated to scaling or other forms of image processing. Such chips enable all sorts of nice features, but they're also one of the primary contributors to input lag."
01:30:15 <elliott> hm, I wonder what these are listed as in product descriptions so I can avoid them
01:30:42 <kmc> do you actually care that much about lag
01:31:03 <elliott> kmc: well it depends what you mean by care
01:31:04 <kmc> don't monitors regularly get sub 10ms latency even with processing?
01:31:11 <elliott> i have to at least pretend to care to myself
01:31:23 <kmc> the other day my monitor crashed such that half the screen was overlaid with noise
01:31:29 <kmc> and rebooting the monitor fixed it
01:32:05 <elliott> the mission of all tech is to introduce as many points of failure as possible
01:33:22 * shapr agrees
01:35:38 <elliott> kmc: do you know anything about the current state of SSDs? I am several years out of the loop
01:36:05 <kmc> yeah there are a lot of credible alternatives now
01:36:19 <kmc> http://www.storagereview.com/best_drives
01:36:32 <elliott> only the intel drives were worth anything last time I checked, which was a long time ago
01:36:37 <elliott> except some OCZ stuff was ok too or something
01:36:47 <kmc> yeah that's how it was when i bought my first SSD
01:36:55 <kmc> now Intel is still good but there are viable alternatives
01:37:38 <elliott> I don't suppose capacity is high enough to use SSDs exclusively without being rich yet
01:37:51 <elliott> admittedly this laptop just has a 256 gigabyte drive, but it's sort of not ideal
01:37:56 <kmc> i recently bought a 240 GB Intel SSD 520
01:37:58 <kmc> for $250
01:38:15 <kmc> i'm happy with it so far
01:38:26 <kmc> my laptop has an older Intel X25-M 80 GB
01:38:38 <kmc> i find 80 GB is plenty of local storage
01:39:17 <kmc> since i'm only running one OS and it's Linux
01:39:37 <ion> I have a 120 GB OCZ Vertex 3. I’ve been happy with it.
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01:39:56 <elliott> kmc: well it depends what you mean by "local"
01:39:59 <kmc> i have all my TV shows and music and such on a 10 TB fileserver
01:40:07 <kmc> which i can sshfs-mount when i am at home
01:40:10 <elliott> I only use one computer at a time, so pretty much everything gets centralised
01:41:28 <kmc> i have a laptop and a file server and a desktop at work
01:41:46 <kmc> also an ec2 instance which just runs irssi and finch
01:45:27 <luite> hm, i find 80GB too small for my laptop, got a samsung 830 256gb recently :)
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01:50:05 <kmc> nice
01:50:22 <elliott> "I also make bacon unicorn references on Twitter."
01:50:26 <kmc> i will get a new laptop soon, and it will have more space because SSD space is so cheap now
01:50:29 <elliott> that sure does win the prize for worst by-line ever
01:53:10 <FreeFull> Not as cheap as HDD yet
01:54:04 <kmc> sure but much cheaper than when i bought that 80 GB SSD back in 2009
01:58:20 <FreeFull> Well hardware prices do tend to go down for PC stuff
01:58:59 <elliott> keen observation
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02:02:19 <kmc> FreeFull really has a way of stating obvious
02:02:51 <elliott> i see they have started pushing the clock speed of processors back up
02:02:57 <elliott> and dialing back the core numbers
02:04:35 <kmc> how's that?
02:04:49 <kmc> the new thing is "Turbo Boost" or whatever
02:05:01 <kmc> which means that if only one core is active, it can use a higher clock than the max clock of allcores together
02:05:09 <kmc> because the limiting factor is heat dissipation
02:05:41 <elliott> well there is this "Intel Core i7-3770K Ivy Bridge 3.5GHz (3.9GHz Turbo) LGA 1155 77W Quad-Core Desktop Processor Intel HD Graphics 4000 BX80637I73770K" (catchy name)
02:05:48 <elliott> last time the i7s were all like sub-3 ghz but 8-core
02:05:59 <kmc> i doubt they were 8 core
02:06:13 <kmc> they might have been erroneously advertised as such when they are 4 core with hyperthreading
02:06:44 <elliott> i thought they were
02:06:56 <kmc> maybe, how long ago was that
02:06:59 <elliott> hm
02:07:00 <elliott> apparently not
02:07:06 <elliott> weird
02:07:14 <elliott> maybe i am thinking of the nehalem xeon
02:08:37 <kmc> yeah i don't think they have shipped more than 6 cores in a non-xeon chip
02:09:22 <elliott> ugh I forgot computer cases are the land of living hell
02:09:30 <elliott> everything is terrible
02:09:57 <kmc> yeah your choices are ugly beige box or some ridiculous blinged out monstrosity with a plexi cutout of a dragon fucking a robot
02:10:14 <kmc> i really like the Antec Three Hundred; it is a rare exception
02:10:26 <elliott> i seem to remember deciding to buy an antec case last time
02:10:40 <kmc> and it has good cable management stuff on the inside
02:11:00 <kmc> other recommendation is don't buy fans smaller than 120 mm if you care about noise
02:11:18 <kmc> and seal all places where dust might get in, with fan filters or just tape over them
02:11:51 <elliott> yeah I was sufficiently obsessive to develop Opinions about fans last time
02:11:54 <elliott> hopefully I can remember some of that by now
02:12:12 <elliott> (this is why I never get anything done)
02:13:09 <elliott> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811133188 wow look at this thing
02:13:14 <elliott> what a mess
02:13:34 <elliott> they should make an art exhibit filled with insane computer cases
02:14:11 <kmc> it's called every brick and mortar computer store
02:14:37 <kmc> that one is super ridiculous
02:14:56 <elliott> it looks like a transformer
02:16:32 <kmc> i like http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811147111 as a small cheap case but it's out of production or something
02:17:03 <pikhq_> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811129042 appears reasonable
02:17:22 <elliott> kmc: did the computer industry work out what kind of ATX it likes best yet
02:17:32 <kmc> yep i have that one
02:17:35 <kmc> the antec three hundred
02:17:36 <kmc> it's good
02:17:47 <elliott> I seem to remember deciding to get an Antec P182 last time, but apparently they don't exist now!!
02:17:53 <kmc> elliott: shrug
02:18:04 <pikhq_> elliott: *-ATX fits in a straight ATX case.
02:18:08 <kmc> if you have a big case then it doesn't matter
02:18:09 <kmc> right
02:18:20 <kmc> if you want a small case then you might need a micro-ATX motherboard
02:18:26 <kmc> which isn't really that small
02:18:34 <elliott> it seems like there are more smaller-than-ATX mobos and cases than ATX stuff nowadays
02:18:48 <pikhq_> The other *-ATX stuff is just smaller versions of ATX; they fit in a full ATX case, you just have a lot of empty space.
02:19:07 <kmc> a lot of mobos are micro-ATX, yeah, because they don't need more space
02:19:18 <pikhq_> Well, there's larger variants too but you are probably not getting them.
02:19:25 <kmc> smaller stuff like mini-ITX is not compatible though
02:19:37 <elliott> holy shit RAM is cheap these days
02:19:46 <elliott> i mean even cheaper than it was before
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02:19:50 <kmc> yeah seriously
02:19:53 <pikhq_> Yes, RAM is cheaper than fuck.
02:20:02 <kmc> yeah you can get 4 GB for like $15
02:20:06 <kmc> you can't get a good fuck for that
02:20:12 <pikhq_> See?
02:20:37 <elliott> if I wanted I could buy 64 gigabytes of ram for $285
02:20:46 <elliott> uses I have for 64 gigabytes of RAM:
02:21:13 <kmc> yeah who even needs a SSD then
02:21:17 <kmc> all your files will be cached forever
02:21:27 <elliott> monqy: welcome back
02:21:34 <elliott> monqy: weren't you just here a second ago
02:21:39 <monqy> no
02:22:25 <elliott> I wonder if I can convince myself buying 32GB of RAM for $140 is at all reasonable
02:22:35 <monqy> why do you need it
02:22:58 <elliott> monqy: that's the main problem :(
02:23:00 <monqy> I'm sure some starving kids in africa could make much better use of all that ram
02:23:08 <elliott> don't be silly monqy
02:23:12 <elliott> they don't have computers in africa
02:23:28 <luite> elliott: you need 64GB for debugging ghc!
02:23:43 <elliott> luite: you mean you need 64GB for compiling anything with ghc :P
02:23:51 <luite> that too
02:24:02 <monqy> so is phantom hoovere blogging about brainfuck now
02:24:25 <monqy> so is taneb blogging about brainfuck now
02:24:35 <kmc> africa is such a poor country
02:25:27 <shachaf> hi kmc, luite, elliott, monqy, africa
02:25:41 <shachaf> "pleasure 2 meet u"
02:26:20 <shachaf> elliott: How do you think I feel with a measly 8GB?
02:26:36 <monqy> I forget how many gb I have but I think it might be 2
02:26:38 <monqy> maybe 4
02:26:40 <pikhq_> I've got 4.
02:26:44 <kmc> where's nortti
02:26:47 <pikhq_> But, I'm using a few-years-old system.
02:26:57 <pikhq_> Which only faintly resembles modernity.
02:26:59 <elliott> I've got 4 and I run out just browsing the web
02:27:01 <elliott> thanks 2012
02:27:01 <monqy> new systems are for losers
02:27:21 <elliott> monqy: are you calling me a loser!!!
02:27:23 <monqy> flash player nearly makes my computer grind to a halt
02:27:24 <pikhq_> I managed to get it so it's quite usable, though.
02:27:29 <pikhq_> I now use LXDE and Opera.
02:27:30 <elliott> monqy: do you use a dumpster computer
02:27:37 <shachaf> ion: Did you write fromList yet?
02:27:38 <monqy> well sometimes it's fine
02:27:40 <pikhq_> I'm using 2.6 gigs for tons and tons of tabs.
02:27:41 <monqy> other times it grinds to a halt
02:27:42 <elliott> pikhq_: xmonad uses less RAM than lxde
02:27:43 * elliott smug
02:27:55 <pikhq_> Eh.
02:28:10 <shachaf> elliott: You know what uses less RAM than xmonad?
02:28:16 <pikhq_> LXDE is a non-revolting DE.
02:28:24 <ion> shachaf: Nah, i’m playing FTL.
02:28:25 <pikhq_> And doesn't make X leak like a sieve.
02:28:31 <pikhq_> (XFCE has X resource leaks.)
02:28:33 <elliott> shachaf: is it @
02:28:44 <monqy> is it twm
02:28:45 <shachaf> ion: Should I acquire FTL?
02:28:45 <elliott> pikhq_: xmonad is a non-(revolting DE)
02:28:54 <ion> shachaf: Yes. It’s great.
02:28:55 <shachaf> elliott: I was thinking of Windows 3.11.
02:28:56 <monqy> speaking of what's hot and new, what's the language of the future these days
02:29:01 <pikhq_> elliott: Why yes, yes it is.
02:29:05 <shachaf> ion: Does it require OpenGL to run? :-(
02:29:08 <shachaf> I don't have OpenGL.
02:29:11 <kmc> i love dumpster computers
02:29:14 <kmc> also dumpsters
02:29:15 <elliott> i hear FTL is a good roguelikelike except for the last bit which is bad
02:29:21 <elliott> also it's actually a roguelike if you just press pause all the time
02:29:27 <kmc> my friend made really good pear bread from some pears from the whole foods dumpster
02:29:38 <shachaf> (good rogue)like
02:29:56 <elliott> kmc: do consumer motherboards support ECC RAM yet
02:30:09 <ion> I’d expect it to work well enough with software OpenGL implementations, but it might not. In any case, this is the best place to get it since you’ll get the DRM-free versions (Linux, too) as well as a Steam key. http://www.ftlgame.com/
02:30:21 <shachaf> ion: I don't even have software GL.
02:30:29 <monqy> i hear it's good roguelikelike except for i hear you need specific stuff or attack power or something to deal with the last bit. i don't know anything else about ftl
02:30:36 <monqy> those are just the things everyone talks about
02:30:39 <monqy> not what ftl actually is
02:30:41 <elliott> monqy: right I hear the final boss ``cheats''
02:30:52 <elliott> by not letting you use a bunch of playstyles that are viable up to that point
02:30:56 <shachaf> elliott: oh no!
02:31:01 <shachaf> elliott: can i ``cheat'' too?
02:31:13 <ion> The boss is a challenge, but it’s winnable.
02:31:19 <shachaf> rm -rf final.boss
02:31:25 <shachaf> "how do u like that"
02:31:28 <kmc> elliott: not to my knowledge
02:31:38 <monqy> maybe sometime in the future I'll play a game
02:31:39 <elliott> kmc: hooray
02:31:43 <kmc> maybe some high end enthusiast ones
02:32:02 <kmc> but maybe not because it would slow down kill3r overclockzzzz
02:32:57 <kmc> you can use a server board in a desktop of course
02:33:06 <kmc> but there are some drawbacks, like the onboard video is probably enormously shit
02:33:28 <kmc> we did this at ksplice and the onboard video literally could not handle moving windows around on a normal 2D linux desktop
02:33:36 <elliott> nice
02:33:36 <kmc> it had like 8 MB of VRAM
02:33:45 <elliott> well i plan to buy a video card of some sort
02:33:52 <elliott> since intel integrated graphics are still shit right
02:33:56 <elliott> except for having good linux support
02:34:06 <kmc> i think they're pretty good
02:34:16 <kmc> basically all laptops with integrated graphics have intel
02:34:32 <kmc> don't expect to play the latest games on high settings
02:35:09 <elliott> but how else can I delay the feeling of having spent an awful lot of money on a computer that is totally excessive for my needs
02:35:33 <ion> shachaf: Why don’t you have OpenGL?
02:35:45 <kmc> yeah you better buy at least two high end video cards
02:35:46 <shachaf> ion: nvidia optimus
02:35:55 <kmc> more like pessimus am i right
02:36:02 <shachaf> Yes. :-(
02:36:53 <ion> Shouldn’t mesa work on anything?
02:37:18 <shachaf> I've yet to get any xorg.conf to work.
02:38:24 <kmc> perhaps bonghits will fix your xorg.conf
02:39:28 <shachaf> kmc: I don't I can do this alone. It'll have to be a joint effort.
02:39:31 <elliott> kmc: remember that terrible optimus keyboard
02:39:53 <kmc> yes
02:40:09 <shachaf> elliott: It was terrible?
02:42:08 <kmc> it was extremely expensive because it has an OLED display under each key
02:42:20 <kmc> they also make a much cheaper (still too expensive one) which just has transparent keys over a LCD
02:42:28 <shachaf> That doesn't sound terrible to me.
02:42:40 <kmc> it probably sucks as a keyboard, i dunno
02:42:44 <pikhq_> I don't *look* at my keys.
02:43:10 <shachaf> kmc: Just imagine the amazing Compose-key customizations you could make to it!
02:43:12 <kmc> it's not so much a real product as an art / concept prototype, which people with far too much money could order on a small run basis
02:43:15 <kmc> yeah!
02:43:16 <kmc> man
02:43:18 <kmc> that would be the best
02:43:47 <kmc> pikhq_: in theory it would be useful for learning the keyboard shortcuts for a new application
02:43:59 <kmc> you know, if the programs actually knew about it
02:45:15 <pikhq_> It would be nice if I felt like learning the kana layout.
02:45:46 <pikhq_> Though to do that "right" I'd probably also need the weird extra keys...
02:45:51 <shachaf> pikhq_ kana be bothered.
02:45:55 <kmc> the black keys
02:46:03 <pikhq_> The ones that would be right where the groove in my spacebar are.
02:46:04 <shachaf> Or maybe it would be more accurate to say that he ain't kana.
02:46:15 <pikhq_> (seriously, I've got a freaking groove worn in my spacebar)
02:49:11 <kmc> i read "i've got a freaking grove worm in my spacebar"
02:49:36 <shachaf> i read "three men in a boat"
02:49:43 <kmc> heh
02:49:48 <kmc> i read that after you told me to
02:50:04 <ion> http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100605031305/spyro/images/6/67/Grove_Worm.png
02:50:35 <kmc> i didn't even know it's a thing
02:54:46 <shachaf> Java 2 Electrical Engineer
02:55:13 <shachaf> kmc: Did you read TaPL?
02:55:23 <kmc> yeah
02:55:28 <kmc> and some of ATaPL
02:55:44 <shachaf> Is it good to read if I want to learn more about type systems?
02:55:48 <elliott> kmc: What's the difference between Sandy Bridge and Sandy Bridge-E and Ivy Bridge? :(
02:55:48 <kmc> yes
02:55:57 <luite> ivy bridge is the new generation
02:56:15 <luite> e is some xeon version
02:56:34 <elliott> hmm, why are they selling consumer processors with E then?
02:56:45 <luite> oh really?
02:56:55 <kmc> Ivy Bridge is newest, it's the same architecture as Sandy but shrunk to 22 nm process, and with some minor additional features
02:57:31 <pikhq_> -E is high end i7 and Xeon.
02:57:41 <luite> ah right
02:57:41 <pikhq_> That is, it's *also* some consumer models.
02:57:41 <kmc> a hardware RNG
02:57:45 <pikhq_> Ivy Bridge is what you want.
02:57:46 <kmc> and a semi useless kernel security feature
02:58:13 <luite> and faster gfx
02:58:21 <elliott> i7s sure do seem more expensive than last time... I guess because now there's the whole i3/i5 split
02:58:36 <shachaf> elliott: Better wait for Haswell.
02:58:41 <shachaf> Haswell is the future.
02:59:00 <pikhq_> If you can wait 'til June.
02:59:20 <elliott> shachaf: Is Haswell like Haskell?
02:59:28 <shachaf> elliott: Yes. (No.)
02:59:33 <elliott> I think you mean yes.
02:59:40 <shachaf> elliott: Well, it has transactional memory!!!!
02:59:44 <pikhq_> elliott: Nah, it's the latest tock iteration of Intel's design cycle.
02:59:52 <pikhq_> And, yeah, HTM.
02:59:55 <shachaf> pikhq_: Isn't it a tick iteration?
03:00:05 <elliott> I see they aren't at single-digit nanometers yet
03:00:13 * shachaf suspects pikhq_'s clocks go backwards.
03:00:17 <pikhq_> No, tick is the die shrink.
03:00:24 <shachaf> Oh.
03:00:28 <shachaf> Maybe it's my clocks, then.
03:00:32 <elliott> Why do they have the major changes on tock?
03:00:33 <elliott> That's really stupid.
03:00:33 <pikhq_> Nah, it's Intel's clocks.
03:00:45 <pikhq_> elliott: Beats me.
03:00:48 <shachaf> pikhq_: Intel's clocks aren't getting faster anymore. :-(
03:00:49 <elliott> monqy: we know our clocks better, rght?
03:00:51 <pikhq_> It makes a lot more sense for tock to be the die shrink.
03:01:03 <pikhq_> shachaf: Instructions-per-clock keeps going up at least.
03:01:26 <shachaf> elliott: You should get a 32-core machine like kmc.
03:01:32 <kmc> 48
03:01:35 <kmc> but it's not mine
03:01:37 <elliott> OK, if kmc donates the funds.
03:01:41 <shachaf> elliott: You should get a 48-core machine like kmc.
03:01:43 <shachaf> And compile colonels on it.
03:01:50 <kmc> i built it for ksplice and it's probably sitting unused in some oracle warehouse now
03:02:09 <pikhq_> Haswell will apparently have 10% higher instructions-per-cycle than Ivy Bridge.
03:02:19 <elliott> kmc: c'mon, where's my money
03:02:31 <kmc> do you think we are joking, or making with the funny stuff
03:14:35 <ion> Meanwhile, a hay competition: http://ubuntuone.com/0FaPo5mnm0KHJ1M4W1P6US
03:30:09 <kmc> I'm the Emperor, and I want dumplings!
03:30:53 <shachaf> ion: Help, is my type broken?
03:32:11 <ion> shachaf: No, you should simply use a dynamically typed language.
03:54:22 <shachaf> ion: I mean my Tree type.
03:54:27 <shachaf> It made sense before but now I don't get it.
03:54:33 <Sgeo> Are the Humble Bundle ebooks worth reading?
03:54:36 <shachaf> 20:15 <shachaf> That would be something like data Tree k a = One k a | Two (Tree k (k,a,a))?
03:54:43 <Sgeo> I've read Cory Doctorow's Down and Out in the Magic Kingdom
03:56:31 <elliott> shachaf: Your Tree type is known, IIRC.
03:56:38 <kmc> there's a humble ebook bundle now? shit
03:56:41 <kmc> cool
03:56:48 <elliott> I think it has properties.
03:57:56 <shachaf> elliott: Is it even valid?
03:58:09 <shachaf> I wrote it but now I don't know how it works.
03:59:49 <kmc> these all sound pretty good
04:00:00 <kmc> except for doctorow's book, which sounds terrible
04:00:04 <kmc> but i never really liked anything he wrote
04:01:03 <elliott> I wouldn't buy anything with a Doctorow book in it just on principle.
04:01:31 <Sgeo> Wait, what's wrong with Doctorow?
04:01:49 <shachaf> elliott would arrange the bundle such that you get a Doctorow book unless you pay more than the average.
04:03:00 <kmc> hahaha shachaf
04:03:06 <elliott> Sgeo: I don't know, I've been ignoring him for the forseeable past on account of him being annoying.
04:03:25 <kmc> down and out was boring
04:03:33 <elliott> But I seem to remember he has a penchant for oversimplification.
04:03:34 <kmc> i just don't give a shit about disneyland
04:04:01 <kmc> and all the futuristic post-singularity stuff was pretty standard sci-fi fare by the time i read it
04:04:24 <pikhq_> And some of his other stuff just beats you over the head with politics.
04:04:30 <pikhq_> It's obnoxious *even if you agree with him*.
04:04:36 <kmc> eastern standard tribe was ok but i don't recall really enjoying it at any point
04:04:42 <elliott> kmc: Have you read The Metamorphosis of Prime Intellect?
04:04:45 <elliott> It's... certainly a book.
04:04:47 <kmc> elliott: yes!
04:05:03 <kmc> i really enjoyed that book when i was like 14 and found it through everything2 or kuro5hin or something
04:05:13 <pikhq_> Likewise.
04:05:26 <kmc> good times
04:05:28 <pikhq_> Might've been 15, but eh.
04:05:31 <shachaf> Back when all the "cool websites" had digits in their names.
04:05:43 <kmc> as opposed to missing vowels
04:05:59 <shachaf> kmc: By the way, how does it feel being over 9000 days old?
04:06:06 <elliott> I hear there's a sequel coming out roughly never.
04:06:17 <elliott> This reminds me I should finish catching up with Ra.
04:06:21 <elliott> kmc: You've read Fine Structure, right?
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04:07:32 <Sgeo> elliott, have you even finished Fine Structure yet?
04:07:37 <kmc> elliott: no
04:07:53 <kmc> shachaf: wow
04:08:00 <elliott> Sgeo: Yes! I'm now going to invoke this fact:
04:08:07 <elliott> kmc: What! Even *I've* read Fine Structure.
04:08:23 <elliott> even monqy has read Fine Structure assuming he actually got round to it which is unlikely
04:08:23 <pikhq_> kmc: Sam Hughes is awesome.
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04:08:49 <Sgeo> kmc, I am thirding the Fine Structure suggestion.
04:08:58 <zzo38> I have added some examples of FurryScript, some people asked for some examples
04:09:12 <elliott> Hey, who said it was a suggestion???
04:09:18 <elliott> Maybe I hate Fine Structure and want to warn kmc off.
04:09:34 <pikhq_> elliott: You *read* it. Surely you don't hate it. :P
04:09:53 <elliott> pikhq_: you like everything you've read??
04:10:10 <shachaf> elliott: pikhq_'s point is that you can't read Fine Structure and not like it.
04:10:16 <pikhq_> elliott: No, but I suggest you can't read Fine Structure and hate it.
04:10:43 <zzo38> You might read it and neither like or hate it.
04:10:55 <elliott> shachaf: I've got a TIP for you, get the POINT?
04:13:13 <zzo38> This is FurryScript truth-machine program: 1[ <1> 1# ] PAR DUP ~#
04:13:31 <zzo38> Static analysis of stack effects would be required to prove that it would work.
04:13:51 <zzo38> However, it does not actually work, for similar reasons as some of the other examples of truth-machine that doesn't work for the same reason.
04:14:11 <shachaf> for similar reasons as some of the other examples of truth-machine that doesn't work for the same reason.
04:14:15 <shachaf> Good point.
04:16:35 <zzo38> The implementation will work if you put 0 however, it will make 0 output and stop.
04:17:45 <zzo38> (If you are running the program on your own computer, the second command-line parameter is the input; if running on the form for custom scripts, use the PAS command to fill in the input.)
04:17:45 <kmc> reading Fine Structure
04:35:01 <kmc> what's a truth machine
04:36:32 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Truth-machine
04:36:48 <shachaf> Do you know what a cake machine is?
04:37:00 <shachaf> I'm just going to paste my pun in.
04:37:01 <shachaf> 11:34 <ousado> I found this to be a very nice informal intro: "Some of the best things in life are free; and some are not. Truth is free. Having proved a theorem, you may use this proof as many times as you wish, at no extra cost. Food, on the other hand, has a cost. Having baked a cake, you may eat it only once. If traditional logic is about truth, then linear logic is about food"
04:37:07 <shachaf> 11:35 <shachaf> Unless you're Zeno.
04:37:10 <shachaf> 11:35 <shachaf> Zeno knew how to halve his cake and eat it too.
04:39:14 <ion> heh
04:51:49 <kmc> oh i thought this was going to be about the cake being a lie
04:54:26 <nortti> 05:26 < kmc> where's nortti // I was sleepinh
04:54:56 <shachaf> hi nortti
04:55:01 <shachaf> Welcome back to awakeness.
04:55:09 <shachaf> kmc: Did you notice your 9000th birthday?
04:56:02 <shachaf> kmc: I wonder whether _Typing Haskell in Haskell_ is a good example of literate programming.
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05:25:21 <kmc> i did not notice it
05:25:26 <kmc> but you did
05:25:31 <kmc> which is weird but cool
05:25:43 <kmc> anyway i have to sleep now, ttyl
05:41:17 <shapr> me too
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06:29:55 <Sgeo> elliott, monqy UPD8
06:30:33 <elliott> monqy never gets better
06:30:38 <zzo38> What does linear logic mean?
06:30:44 <monqy> linear logic
06:31:07 <zzo38> O, I found in Wikipedia, OK
06:36:08 <zzo38> Is it possible to make up a type system similar to Haskell but also has kinds for linear logic instead of only intuitionistic?
06:36:50 <zzo38> (There are some cases I have thought of where I have wanted something like this)
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07:17:25 <zzo38> Is the list of stuff put near the top of the page is OK? Do you like this? http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Zzo38/FurryScript
07:25:13 <shachaf> There Once Was A Fish Named Fred
07:25:19 <shachaf> best esoland or bestestest esolang?
07:25:30 <ion> unit besting
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07:26:37 <ion> “(However, note that it is being discussed this notice might be wrong.)” That should be followed by “(However, note that it is being discussed also this notice might be wrong.)”
07:30:36 <zzo38> shachaf: I don't know!
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07:34:23 <shachaf> zzo38: "(there must be a space after [ and before and after ] however)"
07:34:31 <shachaf> Can you drop the requirement for a space after ]?
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08:48:41 <atriq> zzo38, you've mentioned going to conventions in the past, correct?
08:49:58 <zzo38> Yes
08:50:19 <atriq> What kind of conventions?
08:50:30 <shachaf> The unconventional kind, no doubt.
08:50:31 <lambdabot> shachaf: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
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08:55:02 <zzo38> I went to anime convention
08:55:23 <atriq> Just out of curiosity, were there many Homestucks?
08:55:38 <zzo38> I don't think so.
08:58:02 <atriq> How long ago was this?
08:58:12 <zzo38> A few months ago.
08:58:18 <atriq> Unusual
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09:04:36 <atriq> No crowd of people being weird wearing grey make-up and orange horns?
09:05:03 <zzo38> I think there were two.
09:05:10 <zzo38> Not a lot.
09:05:14 <atriq> Yes
09:05:20 <atriq> Hmm
09:05:27 <atriq> Okay
09:05:57 <atriq> I guess there are either a lot of Homestucks around here or they're really organized
09:07:17 <atriq> Hmm
09:07:32 <atriq> I wonder if the "her" mentioned on Koen's user page refers to someone specific
09:09:05 <fizzie> The list is kind of coffee-oriented.
09:09:32 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello).
09:10:22 <atriq> Hmm hmm
09:10:40 <atriq> I've got an ssh server on my other computer, and I want to access some HTML pages on there from here
09:11:04 <fizzie> It does still have "find her" which doesn't sound all that specific; then again, it just might be someone specific but in hiding.
09:11:09 <atriq> Is there a way I can set it up so I can point my browser at file////whatever/othercomputer/whatever/file.html
09:11:11 <atriq> And have it work
09:12:19 <fizzie> You can do 'sshfs othercomputer:/place /anotherplace" on thefirstcomputer, and then you can just use file:///anotherplace/thing to access the /place/thing of othercomputer.
09:12:34 <fizzie> At least with luck, and with sshfs+fuse installed.
09:13:04 <fizzie> Also it's probably best not to mix ' and " like I did there.
09:14:37 <atriq> Thanks
09:16:06 <atriq> This is a VERY roundabout way to mess with haskell
09:21:40 <atriq> Okay, that's a VERY good reason for that to not work
09:43:49 <elliott> "Warning: If you don't follow the instructions correctly, the result may be an unbootable Linux. Even if you do follow the instructions correctly, the result may be an unbootable Linux."
09:46:22 <fizzie> An unbootable Linux is always an option.
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10:06:53 <elliott> fizzie: More like an inscrutable Linux, right?
10:10:32 <Lumpio-> atriq: ...the usual way to access HTML pages is via a HTTP server
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10:23:19 <atriq> Lumpio-, advise on setting one up?
10:43:20 <Lumpio-> pacman -S nginx
10:46:30 <atriq> That... appears to be a pacman game
10:47:07 <atriq> Did I do something wrong?
10:48:37 <fizzie> You probably used the "wrong" Linux distribution.
10:48:49 <fizzie> (All of them are wrong.)
10:49:06 <atriq> Is Solaris the wrong Linux distribution?
10:49:08 <elliott> I think Arch system maintanence would be a lot less stressful if pacman(1) was just a pacman game.
10:49:27 <elliott> I think I can definitively state that Solaris is, in fact, the most wrong a Linux distribution can possibly be.
10:49:33 <fizzie> I concur.
10:49:44 <atriq> Okay, because I'm not using that
10:49:48 <atriq> How about Windows 98 SE?
10:50:00 <elliott> Windows 98 SE is quite a good Linux distribution IMO.
10:50:10 <elliott> I mean, it's better than Solaris.
10:50:17 <fizzie> All the cool dudes use Windows 98 SE Linux.
10:50:55 <elliott> My favourite Linux distribution is BeOS.
10:51:03 <atriq> When GHC gets ported to Haiku I'll probably use Haiku
10:51:32 <atriq> (actually serious)
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11:04:11 <atriq> Actually, wait
11:04:19 <atriq> I'd need nVidia drivers
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11:32:03 <elliott> ais523: hi
11:32:28 <ais523> hi elliott
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11:32:38 <ais523> I'm busy adding /ˈæmbiːɛf/ to the wiki
11:33:27 <elliott> ais523: come up with an ascii redirect or i'll kill you :P
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11:33:33 <elliott1> im a test
11:33:40 <Phantom_Hoover> oklofok, help
11:33:41 <ais523> there's a link in the language list
11:33:44 <Phantom_Hoover> i need guidance
11:33:59 <elliott> ais523: but I like typing http://esolangs.org/wiki/$x
11:34:17 <ais523> OK, I'll add a redirect from [[$x]]
11:34:19 <ais523> and not explain it
11:34:30 <elliott> :(
11:34:50 <Phantom_Hoover> object-oriented thue is terrible right
11:35:14 <Phantom_Hoover> it sounds terrible but my brain is too mathsed to bother wading through that spec
11:37:24 <elliott> ais523: you know about protocols right
11:37:39 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523 knows all the protocols
11:37:46 <Phantom_Hoover> he has to otherwise he might accidentally break a law
11:47:38 <ais523> elliott: OK, added
11:47:45 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/$x
11:48:01 <elliott> ais523: that redirect goes to an interesting place
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11:48:16 <elliott> oh hmm
11:48:19 <elliott> maybe it is xchat haha
11:49:27 <ais523> xchat doesn't like the link?
11:49:43 <elliott> ais523: you have a bad category
11:49:45 <ais523> try http://esolangs.org/wiki//%CB%88%C3%A6mbi%CB%90%C9%9Bf/ instead
11:49:47 <ais523> which one?
11:49:48 <ais523> tape-based?
11:49:50 <elliott> ye
11:49:52 <ais523> you can fix it, it's a wiki
11:49:57 <ais523> didn't know if BF derivatives got that one
11:49:58 <elliott> i'm lazy tho
11:50:03 <ais523> OK, I'll fix it
11:50:10 <elliott> ais523: by bad i mean
11:50:11 <elliott> it's a redlink
11:50:21 <elliott> and yr article is the only entry
11:50:25 <ais523> oh right
11:50:31 <ais523> meh, it shouldn't be included anyway
11:51:02 <ais523> anyway, going home, I need sleep
11:51:24 <elliott> ais523: here i was just about to ask you programming questions too!!
11:51:25 <elliott> you win this time
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11:51:45 <elliott> fizzie: Guess whose lucky day it is??
11:52:17 <fizzie> I think it's most definitely not mine.
11:53:25 <elliott> fizzie: Correct!
11:54:31 <elliott> fizzie: Is there some kind of generic thing that encapsulates a protocol and gives it encryption (and ideally authentication?) so my server/client don't have to worry about it per se? My current best idea is just opening "ssh server connect-to-local-server-socket-and-hook-stdio-to-it" as a process and using that as the "socket", which seems a bit... suboptimal.
11:56:53 <fizzie> Well, uh. Certainly there are rather generic encrypted-and-optionally-authenticated transport channels. TLS, for example. But maybe that's not what you mean.
11:57:41 <elliott> fizzie: Right, I thought TLS might be what I'm thinking of. I... guess I'll go look into that.
11:58:04 <elliott> (I don't suppose TLS supports SSH public-key authentication. :p)
11:58:46 <elliott> Mostly TLS seems to have lots of complex fiddly thingies I'm not sure I care about, like certificate-signing and so on.
11:59:22 <fizzie> At least not normally, no; the authentication aspects are traditionally all X.509.
11:59:54 <elliott> Right. That sounds like it could potentially be a pain to set up on clients and stuff "just" for this thing I'm working on.
12:01:13 <elliott> So maybe I'll just go with the ssh thing after all.
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12:02:28 <elliott> Still.
12:02:32 <elliott> Aren't these things meant to be nice?
12:02:37 <fizzie> I think TLS supports pre-shared key ciphersuites, if that's an option. Of course it's not quite SSH public keys.
12:03:21 <fizzie> (But it's not dabbling with certificates either.)
12:03:58 <elliott> fizzie: I don't even know what a ciphersuite is.
12:04:01 <elliott> I'm bad at this stuff.
12:04:27 <elliott> IS IT: a suit you wear in bad cyberpunk novels that encrypts your travels through CYBERSPACE with a cipher?
12:05:18 <fizzie> Just a term they use. "The fiddly details," sort of. A name for the particular pile of encryption and authentication and whatnot algorithms that are used.
12:06:26 <elliott> Right. I mean, I don't even know if the typical Linux system has the programs you need to set such a thing up, though.
12:06:42 <elliott> It sounds fiddlier than making an ssh key, which takes 0 seconds because everyone* has one.
12:06:46 <elliott> *Everyone that matters.
12:08:27 <fizzie> I didn't know whether TLS libraries support the TLS-PSK things if it's an extension; based on a quick google, though, at least GnuTLS does, and has helper functions to generate and hex-encode/decode keys. But, really, for pre-shared keys, it's just K random bits.
12:08:51 <elliott> Right.
12:08:53 <fizzie> OpenSSL API isn't IIRC the most pleasant to work with. GnuTLS probably isn't any nicer, though.
12:09:13 <elliott> Hmm, I guess I could do some sort of ssh tunneling deal rather than "ssh server connect-to-local-server-socket-and-hook-stdio-to-it".
12:09:18 <elliott> That seems... less awful, maybe.
12:09:27 <elliott> fizzie: Well, I don't anticipate talking to it directly from C.
12:09:44 <fizzie> That's always nice.
12:10:43 <elliott> Anyway this is all sounding awfully complicated. :(
12:11:21 <fizzie> There are netcat-like tools that provide encrypted pipes, but it's arguable whether that's really any better than your SSH method.
12:11:28 <fizzie> Possibly the optimal solution may depend on what's comfortably available for your implementation language.
12:12:01 * elliott doesn't even know that, except that it's almost certainly one of Haskell, Python or C, and probably not C.
12:12:06 <elliott> My planning: woefully under.
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12:12:49 <Arc_Koen> hello
12:14:53 <atriq> Hey
12:15:12 <atriq> Arc_Koen, is the "her" mentioned on your user page someone specific, or just a general goal?
12:15:28 <Arc_Koen> just a general goal
12:15:37 <Arc_Koen> though there are specific candidates
12:15:41 <fizzie> elliott: SSL does have the advantage that I'd expect most decent things have a way to speak it. (And everyone has the openssl command line tools installed, so fiddling with the certificates isn't too many orders of magnitude more complicated than fiddling with SSH public keys, except the commands are a lot uglier.)
12:16:37 <elliott> fizzie: Right.
12:16:58 <elliott> fizzie: I don't suppose it gets any easier if I settle for password-based authentication?
12:18:15 <fizzie> Well. A TLS encrypted-only channel with just a password query would be easy, but also somewhat MITM-risky, since there's no way to detect someone just forwarding all traffic in the middle.
12:19:22 <fizzie> SSH at least has the host key checks. Assuming the user just doesn't type "yes" to all questions.
12:19:47 <elliott> fizzie: Right. Well, in this case it's more the server trying to keep riff-raff out than much about the client trusting the server.
12:21:34 <fizzie> Apparently there's also a "TLS-SRP" password-based-key-exchange authentication extension, implemented in the usual libraries.
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12:22:19 <Arc_Koen> atriq: I'm surprised you read that already
12:22:25 <atriq> I read EVERYTHING
12:22:34 <elliott> Even minds.
12:22:35 <fizzie> So you can nowadays do TLS with certificates, with pre-shared keys, or with passwords. Fancy.
12:22:36 <atriq> (disclaimer: I don't actually read everything)
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12:25:07 <atriq> Help
12:25:23 <elliott1> atriq: hi
12:26:37 <atriq> I think I'm being flirted at
12:27:30 <fizzie> atriq: Shoot a cloud of ink to hide behind, and then slink away.
12:30:58 <Arc_Koen> how do I put a link to http://esolangs.org/wiki//ˈæmbiːɛf/ on the wiki?
12:31:18 <Arc_Koen> the starting / seems to be confusing the wiki
12:31:24 <elliott> [[:/ˈæmbiːɛf/]]
12:31:30 <elliott> well, [[:/ˈæmbiːɛf/|]]
12:32:17 <Arc_Koen> oh tahnk you
12:32:44 <Arc_Koen> (and then common sense tell me I could've seen how ais did on the languages list)
12:42:09 <Arc_Koen> so i : just a symbol to say "don't treat this link like you usually do" or does it mean something like . and .. in a unix shell?
12:47:33 <elliott> format is [[namespace:foo]]
12:47:40 <elliott> like [[Template:Blah]]
12:47:42 <elliott> or [[Esolang:Policy]]
12:47:47 <elliott> the "main" namespace's name is an empty string
12:48:00 <elliott> if you do [[:foo]] then it's the page named foo... otherwise [[/foo]] is interpreted as a subpage of the current page
12:48:03 <elliott> i.e. [[:thispage/foo]]
12:49:15 <atriq> So it kind of is like Unix's "."
12:50:12 <elliott> it's more like unix's /
12:50:16 <Arc_Koen> yeah
12:50:21 <elliott> [[foo]] is like ./foo
12:50:24 <elliott> [[:foo]] is like /foo
12:50:46 <elliott> and [[foo:bar]] is like C:\bar because now the metaphor is windows
12:50:56 <Arc_Koen> haha
12:51:22 <Arc_Koen> and how to make a distinction between a subpage and a page that has a / in it?
12:51:35 <atriq> Do you need to?
12:52:55 <Arc_Koen> I don't know
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13:21:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Arc_Koen, there is no distinction.
13:21:19 <Phantom_Hoover> a/b is a subpage of a if a exists, otherwise it's just a page with a / in the name.
13:21:31 <Arc_Koen> oh, ok
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13:24:45 <Phantom_Hoover> wikipedia has at least two maps of the island that thomas the tank engine is set on
13:30:20 <atriq> Sodor?
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13:36:07 <shapr> Are there any spoken programming languages?
13:36:22 <Slereah> Sure
13:36:25 <Slereah> Go get a nerd
13:36:26 <shapr> fizzie: Can your department hack up a spoken programming language please? :-)
13:36:31 <Slereah> Tell him "Make a program that does this"
13:36:49 <shapr> I was thinking more like lojban->Haskell
13:36:52 * shapr thinks about that
13:37:06 <Slereah> Spoken or written is just the medium
13:37:15 <shapr> I guess if there's an easy way to turn spoken lojban into text, that would be enough.
13:37:18 <Slereah> You could just say out loud written Haskell
13:37:28 <Slereah> And get a speech to text converter
13:37:39 <Slereah> Lojban isn't really any more programmy than any other language
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13:37:56 <Slereah> Also there's Plain English, but that is the worst language
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13:39:48 <FireFly> There are plenty of (buggy) english-to-*-compilers out there, though
13:40:32 <fizzie> shapr: I don't think we have investigated recognition of spoken (existing) programming languages, let alone tried to make an easily-recognizable new language.
13:41:51 <Slereah> Don't you remember Plain English, fizzie!
13:41:56 <Slereah> From osmonian or something
13:42:17 <fizzie> I mean "we" as in our department.
13:42:31 <fizzie> It's not like I could forget Plain English, no.
13:42:32 <Slereah> What department
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13:43:43 <fizzie> The department that the speech recognition/synthesis research group that I'm in is part of.
13:43:55 <Slereah> http://www.osmosian.com/
13:44:01 <Slereah> I HATE THEM SO MUCH
13:44:34 <fizzie> The Osmosian Order! Man, they're wacky.
13:44:55 <fizzie> shapr: I'm not sure if anyone mentioned fungot's implementation language to you yet, so let me just do a shameless plug here.
13:44:56 <fungot> fizzie: but that makes things worse than ever! everybody is going straight to the top, since who cares! the utahraptor's been having a bad time to say all the run-of-the-mill thoughts we have!
13:44:59 <fizzie> ^source
13:44:59 <fungot> http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98
13:45:13 <fizzie> Yes, it made things worse than ever.
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13:52:47 <shapr> fizzie: That's terrifying.
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13:59:25 <ion> Stratos jump successful http://youtu.be/yFU774q6eVM
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15:08:10 <AnotherTest> Hello
15:09:49 <FreeFull> Hi
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17:33:12 <atriq> You know, at the beginning of the American Civil War, the confederates thought that they could count on the support of the British, because Britain imported a lot of cotton from them.
17:33:45 <atriq> However, when they asked for military aid, Britain thought "why bother" and got cotton from Egypt instead, which turned out to be cheaper.
17:33:55 <atriq> The moral of the story is, don't rely on the British?
17:34:46 <kmc> haha
17:37:42 <Phantom_Hoover> never underestimate the ability of the british to screw you over?
17:38:00 <Phantom_Hoover> the chinese can attest to that one too
17:38:55 <Phantom_Hoover> afaict the opium wars were basically a bond villain plan
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17:43:52 <atriq> "Well, Mister Bond, you have discovered my plan to sell opium to China so we can afford tea and they'll be too high to care!"
17:43:55 <atriq> "Hahahaha"
17:44:08 <atriq> (I don't know that much about the Opium wars)
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17:44:33 <Phantom_Hoover> i think at some point the chinese tried to foil this fiendish plan by banning opium
17:44:37 <Phantom_Hoover> this is where the wars come in
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17:52:07 <atriq> Arc_Koen, did you ever try Homestuck again?
17:52:17 <Arc_Koen> "ever"
17:52:25 <atriq> Since, well, yesterday evening
17:52:31 <Arc_Koen> last time was about 14 hours ago
17:52:31 <atriq> Did you get that hot chocolate?
17:52:35 <Arc_Koen> yes
17:52:36 <Arc_Koen> yes I did
17:53:00 <Arc_Koen> well, the chocolate I got about two hours ago, actually
17:53:06 <Arc_Koen> talk about delaying
17:53:51 <Arc_Koen> I'm currently implementing deadfish in thue
17:53:51 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
17:54:00 <Arc_Koen> (and also wondering why I'm doing that)
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18:07:46 <AnotherTest> http://esolangs.org/wiki/The_Best_Place_To_Grab_Cash_Financing_Very_Quickly ?
18:08:06 <atriq> I need to make an esolang REALLY QUICKLY
18:09:09 <AnotherTest> I have a good idea atriq
18:09:19 <atriq> How developed
18:09:58 <atriq> is your idea?
18:10:38 -!- AnotherTest1 has joined.
18:10:39 <AnotherTest1> (note: this idea might not work out, and if it does, it will be virtually impossibe to write a program in this language)
18:10:46 <AnotherTest1> and sorry for disconnecting
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18:12:29 <atriq> (look at Fueue and Eodermdrone and Malbolge)
18:12:54 <AnotherTest> atriq: are you interested in languages with randomness?
18:13:08 <atriq> I'm more interested in functional languages
18:13:16 <AnotherTest> oh
18:13:18 <AnotherTest> okay
18:13:25 <AnotherTest> then my idea is probably not for you
18:13:33 <atriq> Nah, I want to hear it
18:14:06 <AnotherTest> okay so, this is only a vague idea (keep that in mind):
18:15:14 <AnotherTest> A is parsed into a tree. So the root node would be the first instruction, and then a random number is generated in the range (for example) [1, 5]
18:15:28 <AnotherTest> this number determines the number of child nodes the root has
18:16:13 <atriq> Okay
18:16:14 <AnotherTest> next, each of the child nodes will (if enough instructions are available) also get a random amount of child nodes in the range [1, 5]
18:16:30 <AnotherTest> this continues until there are no more instructions
18:16:48 <AnotherTest> then the execution starts as following:
18:17:02 <AnotherTest> The root instruction is executed
18:17:13 <AnotherTest> Then a random child of this root node is executed
18:17:25 <AnotherTest> this process continues until a node without children is reached
18:17:35 <AnotherTest> That's it basically
18:18:34 <AnotherTest> I'm not entirely sure whether it would be possible to write an actual program (that does something that makes sense) in this language
18:19:52 <atriq> Hmm
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18:21:12 <AnotherTest> It would be an accomplishment to write a hello world program in such a language
18:25:06 <impomatic> The Code Poems book appears to have been published... http://wired.co.uk/news/archive/2012-10/12/code-poems-book - not sure about the availability
18:26:20 <AnotherTest> atriq: so, what do you think?
18:26:36 <atriq> Could be interesting
18:28:09 <AnotherTest> Well, if we want to to make this, we will need to determine the details
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18:28:39 <AnotherTest> for example, what would be the basic instructions?
18:29:06 <atriq> `welcome Por_gammer
18:29:08 <AnotherTest> I was also thinking to have the memory as a tree (with randomness when going down, but not when going up)
18:29:16 <HackEgo> Por_gammer: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
18:29:28 <Sgeo> "Scala macros are, in fact, cats."
18:30:46 <AnotherTest> atriq: what if we took the brainfuck instructions, and organized them in this new manner?
18:30:50 <Por_gammer> uhmm... hi?
18:30:54 <atriq> Hey
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18:31:04 <atriq> AnotherTest, I think it may work well with function-y ness
18:31:23 <AnotherTest> atriq: also good
18:31:42 <atriq> Define each function to be n-adic where n is any number from 1 to 5
18:31:49 <atriq> Then you can use the whole tree
18:32:01 <AnotherTest> n-adic?
18:32:16 <atriq> Taking n inputs
18:32:21 <AnotherTest> ah
18:33:34 <AnotherTest> atriq: so you want to make a fully functional language, where the flow of instructions is in this manner?
18:33:49 <atriq> It could work
18:33:57 <AnotherTest> Yes, perhaps
18:34:25 <atriq> If each subtree is a function from a tree to a tree
18:34:36 -!- Gregor has set topic: BE WARNED: The people here are the completest asses. | http://phantom-hoover.tumblr.com/ | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
18:34:56 <nortti> we are donkeys?
18:35:04 <AnotherTest> So the only data type is a tree of ...?
18:35:09 <Gregor> nortti: The completest.
18:35:09 <atriq> Functions
18:35:12 <AnotherTest> and afunction
18:35:27 <FireFly> What is an incomplete donkey?
18:35:29 <AnotherTest> oh a function is a tree
18:35:34 <AnotherTest> I get it
18:36:00 <Gregor> FireFly: The truest of tragedies :'(
18:39:34 <AnotherTest> so, atriq, suppose you said fun a (with possibly function b as argument) = (+ 1) b; It would do either b or (+1) (so it would either be 1 or b + 1)
18:39:55 <atriq> I think so!
18:40:02 <atriq> I haven't really thought of this much
18:40:29 <AnotherTest> So you can specify an amount of arguments, but it's not certain that they will get passed
18:41:38 <AnotherTest> f(x, y, z) = x + y + z might do x, y, z, x + y, y + z or x + z
18:41:52 <AnotherTest> assuming that the parameters that are not passed are 0
18:42:25 <AnotherTest> or are the neutral element for the operation that is being done (thus when multiplying they equal 1)
18:42:41 <AnotherTest> It might also do nothing
18:42:43 <atriq> Or when composing they equal the identity function
18:43:37 <AnotherTest> Yes f(x, y, z) = (x · y · z)(1) might thus be 1
18:43:57 <AnotherTest> (assuming · is actually an open dot, which it is not unfortunately)
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18:51:51 <boily> half-hi all!
18:52:39 <Phantom_Hoover> h all?
18:52:42 <Phantom_Hoover> i all?
18:53:15 <boily> maybe something like *bwarg*. half-my mouth is frozen from the dentist.
18:54:01 <Gregor> So your dentist injects dry ice instead of novocaine too!
18:54:04 <Gregor> I thought that was just mine! *whew*
18:54:28 <Phantom_Hoover> injecting dry ice
18:54:30 <Phantom_Hoover> new one on me
18:54:31 <boily> dry ice?
18:54:42 <boily> I'd be very surprised if it was dry ice.
18:54:49 <Phantom_Hoover> particularly given it's a solid
18:54:51 <boily> but they went and used multiple products.
18:56:26 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor probably just doesn't understand because nobody trusts his country with the good anaesthetics
18:57:09 <Gregor> The joke was that “frozen” is a bizarre word choice.
18:57:36 <Phantom_Hoover> *we're* bad at jokes?
18:57:39 <boily> pardon my French :p
18:57:48 <Phantom_Hoover> how many members of monty python were american again??
18:58:03 <boily> terry gilliam?
18:58:06 <Gregor> Aaaaand Phantom_Hoover thinks that Monty Python was about jokes.
18:58:06 <Gregor> Yikes.
18:58:18 <Phantom_Hoover> no, mostly i did that for the terry gilliam thing
18:58:26 <olsner> a "half-my" mouth is an interesting concept ... I guess the other half belongs to the novocaine
18:59:02 <boily> shows how affected I am by the intervention...
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19:07:03 <ion> http://fi3.eu.apcdn.com/full/63422.jpg
19:08:08 <Phantom_Hoover> as if stallman would have children
19:09:07 <Gregor> Hello Android! HAW HAW HAW
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19:20:39 <atriq> Oh dear god I've cloned myself
19:22:24 <Arc_Koen> atriq: here is an idea of a name for an esolang
19:22:28 <Arc_Koen> hope it inspires you
19:22:43 <Arc_Koen> "Talk talk: Turing tarpit"
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19:26:49 <Arc_Koen> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk_talk:Turing_tarpit
19:27:20 <Arc_Koen> I was planning to make this a language one day or the other but I don't really have a proper idea yet
19:27:43 <Arc_Koen> I was thinking maybe something self-modifying in the same vein as emmental (except a turing tarpit)
19:28:19 <Arc_Koen> so if you have a proper idea any time soon, go ahead :)
19:28:59 <olsner> beware the turing armpit, where [expunged]
19:29:16 <Arc_Koen> thing is I really need to make a language heavily inspired by nomics but I don't have a consistent idea yet
19:31:04 <Arc_Koen> beware the turing armpit, where everything is possible but nothing is smooth?
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19:41:33 <Sgeo> kmc, remember when I was talking Common Lisp and was trying to work out how to get the lexical environment to show off that whatever we were talking about could be done in Common Lisp, and I gave up?
19:42:00 <Sgeo> Pretty sure it could be done in Common Lisp, because I did it in Clojure and I think Common Lisp is sufficiently similar in regards to the basic concept
19:42:03 <Sgeo> https://www.refheap.com/users/sgeo
19:42:05 <Sgeo> oops
19:42:11 <Sgeo> https://www.refheap.com/paste/5886
19:49:12 <olsner> !rot13 renslo
19:49:14 <EgoBot> erafyb
19:50:04 <olsner> not funny :(
19:50:12 <olsner> !rot13 turing
19:50:13 <EgoBot> ghevat
19:50:30 <Sgeo> !rot13 guro
19:50:30 <EgoBot> theb
19:50:43 <Sgeo> !rot13 gura
19:50:43 <EgoBot> then
19:51:36 <olsner> !rot13 cymru cymry
19:51:37 <EgoBot> plzeh plzel
19:51:52 <Sgeo> !rot13 clojure
19:51:53 <EgoBot> pybwher
19:51:55 <olsner> !rot13 welsh
19:51:55 <EgoBot> jryfu
19:52:47 <olsner> ok, rot13 is boring again
19:53:17 <Sgeo> !rot13 na na. na na na na.
19:53:17 <EgoBot> an an. an an an an.
19:55:12 <olsner> !rot13 mana mana
19:55:13 <EgoBot> znan znan
19:55:20 <boily> !rot13 ééééééé
19:55:21 <EgoBot> ​ééééééé
19:55:24 <boily> meh.
19:55:48 <boily> would have been nice if it had outputed somthing like ŕŕŕŕŕ
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19:56:51 <Sgeo> !rot13 hey hey hey goodbye
19:56:52 <EgoBot> url url url tbbqolr
19:57:00 <Sgeo> o.O
19:57:11 <Sgeo> !rot13 na na. na na na na. hey hey hey.
19:57:12 <EgoBot> an an. an an an an. url url url.
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19:59:58 <atriq> An url!?
20:00:17 <Sgeo> !rot13 earl
20:00:17 <EgoBot> rney
20:00:25 <Sgeo> !rot13 Renae
20:00:26 <EgoBot> Eranr
20:00:57 <Sgeo> !rot13 Renee
20:00:58 <EgoBot> Erarr
20:00:58 <fizzie> ^rot13 can you do UPPERCASE?
20:00:59 <fungot> pna lbh qb HCCREPNFR?
20:01:06 <Sgeo> !rot13 error
20:01:06 <EgoBot> reebe
20:01:20 <Sgeo> I could play this game all day
20:01:27 <Sgeo> !rot13 rebate
20:01:27 <EgoBot> erongr
20:01:33 <Sgeo> ...
20:01:48 <Sgeo> !rot13 ignore
20:01:48 <shachaf> !rot13 Sgeo
20:01:48 <EgoBot> vtaber
20:01:48 <EgoBot> Ftrb
20:01:54 <shachaf> !rot13 my nick
20:01:54 <EgoBot> zl avpx
20:02:04 <Sgeo> !rot13 vtable
20:02:05 <EgoBot> ignoyr
20:02:21 <Sgeo> !rot13 verticle tabber
20:02:21 <EgoBot> iregvpyr gnoore
20:02:32 <Sgeo> !rot13 vertical tabber
20:02:33 <EgoBot> iregvpny gnoore
20:02:37 <Sgeo> I learned how to spell!
20:04:18 <olsner> !rot13 shatbg
20:04:19 <EgoBot> fungot
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20:06:05 <fizzie> ^rot13 shat up
20:06:05 <fungot> fung hc
20:06:32 <olsner> fhng hc
20:09:43 <Arc_Koen> atriq: so, any idea for Talk talk: Turing Tarpit?
20:10:14 <Arc_Koen> "talk talk" sounds like the french onomatopoeia for knock knock
20:11:25 <Arc_Koen> so I was thinking something about a nomic-inspired turning tarpit with something about doors
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20:13:06 <atriq> Not really
20:13:12 <atriq> Something like dupdog, maybe?
20:13:59 <Arc_Koen> if I recall correctly dupdog was something about WARNING: Don't Spend Your Whole Night Trying To Understand Dupdog!!!
20:14:31 <Arc_Koen> also tarpit looks like the french word for carpet
20:14:39 <Arc_Koen> so maybe something with doors and carpets
20:15:35 <Arc_Koen> actually that's consistent with the idea of a turning tarpit: you're in a circular, spinning room with lots of doors and a nice rug under your feet (and instructions are behind the doors)
20:16:25 <Arc_Koen> oh wait no I'm mistaking it with something else
20:16:36 <Arc_Koen> dupdog is that thing using the length of the source code, right?
20:16:57 <boily> but what happens if you shuffle too much in that room? wouldn't trying to read the instructions cause an electric discharge and fry them?
20:17:28 <Arc_Koen> ouh, nice
20:17:51 <Arc_Koen> like, sometimes door can open in the middle of two instructions?
20:18:23 * Arc_Koen adds that to his list of potentially-interesting-ideas
20:24:00 <Arc_Koen> oh, or a non-deterministic language using the same idea as ais523's amBF, where instructions are in a circle, and everytime you use the symbol for an instruction, one of the three instructions (previous, that one, next) will be executed instead
20:24:53 <Arc_Koen> (by "in the same idea as /'æmbeef/" I don't mean it needs to be a brainfuck-derivative)
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21:48:56 <kmc> there should be an "invent your own cargo cult C performance rule" contest
21:49:03 <kmc> a la http://chronicle.com/blogs/linguafranca/2012/10/03/a-new-contest-centered-around-usage/
21:51:38 * Sgeo pokes kmc
21:52:11 <kmc> yes?
21:53:13 <Sgeo> https://www.refheap.com/paste/5886 getting the lexical environment, both variable symbols and values, in Clojure
21:53:22 <Sgeo> And a similar concept should work in Common Lisp, I think
21:54:00 <zzo38> Do you like this? http://www.chessvariants.org/index/msdisplay.php?itemid=MSsecretbombsche
21:54:55 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc,
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21:55:39 <Sgeo> And of course, it should be easy to write an eval that takes such a map and wraps its argument in a let
22:00:58 <Arc_Koen> zzo38: why "Cannot escape pictorial checkmate."?
22:01:58 <Arc_Koen> checkmate usually means "you're in check and cannot escape" - if you change the rules, then it seems only logical that it affects the possibilities of checkmate
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22:02:30 <Arc_Koen> unless those new rules have actually been tested and it has been decided it's actually better this way
22:04:08 <Arc_Koen> (also, I've never seen the phrase "pictorial checkmate" before, but I assume it means "a position that would be a checkmate if we were playing regular fide chess")
22:04:23 <zzo38> Arc_Koen: Yes, that is what "pictorial checkmate" means, and I have seen it before.
22:08:06 <Arc_Koen> zzo38: have you had a look at http://www.chessvariants.org/large.dir/contest84/orwellchess.html ?
22:09:52 <zzo38> I am looking now.
22:14:03 <zzo38> Not bad.
22:20:37 <Arc_Koen> that's the chess variant I've been the most impressed with
22:20:55 <Arc_Koen> and I'm looking (not actively, though) for an opportunity to play it
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22:24:25 <zzo38> Maybe make up some pieces and board you can do it
22:24:43 <Arc_Koen> yes
22:25:19 <Arc_Koen> I was thinking a circular board would be more appropriate than a cylindrical one
22:25:34 <zzo38> Then make up your own variant of variant
22:26:01 <Arc_Koen> it's not really a variant - it's just another way to represent the 'torus' aspect of the board
22:26:43 <zzo38> OK
22:27:57 <zzo38> Is my description of FurryScript better now? I think you have asked for some improvement and now I have done.
22:28:19 <Arc_Koen> if I were to make a program with graphics it would probably display the board both as a cylinder and a disc
22:28:23 <zzo38> It is not only the description; if you have additional questions, or you wanted some additional commands, you can ask that too.
22:28:29 <Arc_Koen> let me have a look
22:28:44 <zzo38> Arc_Koen: OK, it could be done like that, could be one way I guess.
22:29:49 <Arc_Koen> what's a "domain specific" programming language?
22:30:38 <Arc_Koen> does that mean it's been designed for one purpose mainly (with "domain" meaning a field like physics or biology)?
22:30:55 <zzo38> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domain-specific_language
22:31:01 <shapr> Arc_Koen: Yes, like PHP
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22:31:22 <shapr> PHP is PHP HyperText Preprocessor or something like that.
22:31:25 <Arc_Koen> thanks
22:31:30 <Arc_Koen> so what's furryscript's domain?
22:32:02 <shapr> No idea
22:32:05 <shapr> SNOBOL was for text processing
22:32:20 <shapr> A good example of a domain specific language is regular expressions.
22:32:22 <zzo38> FurryScript is even more domain-specific than PHP; the original reason it was written was actually specifically to interpret this: http://zzo38computer.org/furry/scripts/furrygenerator_7thsanc.txt (it is also where the name comes from)
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22:33:26 <zzo38> Although the current version implements many commands which are not used in that file.
22:35:49 <Arc_Koen> I have no idea what "generation" means
22:36:26 <zzo38> You also have to read the section about "templates" like it tell you to do
22:36:40 <zzo38> Probably I could explain it better, but am unsure how.
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22:37:55 <zzo38> But if you are still confused, you can ask more specific or see some of the external examples might explain a bit?
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22:38:46 <Arc_Koen> hmm yes I'm definitely still confused
22:39:20 <Arc_Koen> the examples use PAR a lot and I have no idea what it does either
22:39:53 <Arc_Koen> also what do the "( -- )" and "( ? -- ? )" means?
22:40:01 <zzo38> The purpose of PAR command is explained clearly in the text; it is used to read input.
22:40:14 <zzo38> Things like "( -- )" are stack effect notation (commonly used with Forth).
22:41:44 <zzo38> I added another paragraph of text to the "Generation" section.
22:42:15 <Sgeo> If I want to implement esolangs in Clojure, I should find a good parsec-equivalent
22:43:02 <Arc_Koen> hmm I understand a little better now
22:43:41 <Arc_Koen> so it's mainly a functional language right? except with side effect on the stack
22:44:34 <zzo38> Arc_Koen: Somewhat, I guess
22:45:15 <Arc_Koen> there's this whole continuation thing I'm not sure I understand
22:45:54 <Arc_Koen> does it mean when a subroutine is called, it is provided with a copy of the stack (and of the program state)?
22:46:49 <zzo38> No; they all use the same stack. It is only provided with a copy of the stack and of the rest of the program state if you use the command to call with the current continuation. Also, continuations cannot be called backward.
22:47:10 <zzo38> You may see these files for more examples: http://zzo38computer.org/furry/scripts/ (I have added a link directly to this directory now)
22:47:14 <Phantom_Hoover> oklofok??
22:47:20 <Phantom_Hoover> dammit man i need guidance
22:50:39 <zzo38> Do you understand the external examples? If anything in external example not understand, you can ask specific clarification I may add the comments if needed.
22:52:47 <Arc_Koen> well the beer program looks very much like any usual stack based language
22:53:05 <Arc_Koen> though I'm not sure when things are outputted
22:54:11 <zzo38> Things output when the program ends, any strings remaining on the stack are process any instructions they contain, and then send to output.
22:54:31 <Arc_Koen> king_game and lifepath don't really look like programs at all - do they simply take some input to fill in some form?
22:55:05 <zzo38> "<You have <colordata> <skindata>, <numberdata> eyes, and <featuredata>.>
22:55:13 <Arc_Koen> ok, but that means the 99 is put on the stack first, then 98, etc., so 99 will be outputted last instead of first?
22:56:02 <zzo38> "<You have <colordata> <skindata>, <numberdata> eyes, and <featuredata>.>" is a string which contains four instructions, "colordata", "skindata", etc, these subroutines are called and anything added to the stack since that point, one is selected at random and the instruction is replaced with that result.
22:56:15 <Arc_Koen> ohhhhh
22:56:17 <zzo38> Arc_Koen: No, because the + at the beginning of any instruction tells it to use concatenation.
22:56:37 <Arc_Koen> oh, of course
22:56:38 <zzo38> You can try the programs if you want; either install it on your own computer or use the HTML form.
22:57:35 <Arc_Koen> so king_game basically generates a sentence with random values for skindata and stuff?
22:57:44 <zzo38> Yes.
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23:01:43 <Arc_Koen> SU ( y x -- result ) Subtract x from y does this mean that the code "3 0 SU" will output -3 and not 3?
23:02:35 <zzo38> No.
23:02:55 <zzo38> Actually it won't output anything because it is not a string, but you can cast it to a string by +<> afterward
23:04:53 <Arc_Koen> ok
23:05:36 <Arc_Koen> so in ( z y x -- z' ) the top of the stack is z?
23:05:42 <Arc_Koen> or x
23:06:03 <zzo38> The top of the stack is x same as in Forth
23:06:08 <Arc_Koen> ok
23:07:27 <zzo38> Hopefully it is understandable now?
23:08:54 <Arc_Koen> yes
23:09:26 <Arc_Koen> still a bit confused about the whole good-bad-very bad thing
23:10:47 <zzo38> Perhaps look at some of the files that use those commands
23:20:43 <zzo38> Does it help?
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23:23:46 <kmc> Arc_Koen, shachaf: I would say that "domain-specific language" is a much narrower thing than PHP
23:23:59 <kmc> PHP is basically a general purpose programming language
23:24:02 <zzo38> kmc: I agree
23:24:09 <Arc_Koen> zzo38: not really
23:24:13 <kmc> a terrible one, and definitely with lots of web stuff baked in, but with lots of other things too
23:24:20 <kmc> and i mean "web stuff" is a really broad domain
23:24:24 <Arc_Koen> I think it's similar to ocaml's exceptions
23:24:40 <kmc> to me a DSL is like, a makefile language or a 3D renderer scene description language or such
23:25:04 <kmc> they might be turing complete but they aren't oriented towards the general tasks of programming
23:25:15 <zzo38> kmc: Yes, I agree with you.
23:25:32 <kmc> one insight is that one should focus on building the domain specific bits and not on reinventing the programming language bits, incrementally and poorly
23:25:58 <kmc> basically every 'config file' format eventually grows a bad implementation of variables, control flow, etc.
23:26:17 <kmc> so the so-called "embedded domain-specific languages" are really just libraries in a host language, and you have the host language's features for these things
23:26:34 <kmc> er I meant to ping shapr not shachaf
23:26:36 <kmc> but shapr is not here
23:27:19 <kmc> i worked somewhere where both frontend and backend were written in a mixture of Ruby on Rails and PHP
23:27:54 <kmc> meaning, both the webapp and backend batch processing or sysadmin scripts
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23:34:11 <zzo38> kmc: Your description of these thing of domain specific programming, is a bit like how FurryScript is like
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23:35:03 <shachaf> hi kmc
23:37:12 <kmc> hichaf
23:37:15 <kmc> how goes?
23:38:47 <shachaf> I need to find a place which is quiet and pleasant and open at odd hours.
23:39:00 <shachaf> And isn't $HOME.
23:39:10 <kmc> how odd
23:39:21 <shachaf> The library works for everything except for the odd-hours bit.
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23:47:05 <shachaf> ion: You gonna talk about applicative functors with XMunkki face-to-face, like a man? Huh?
23:48:12 <ion> Hehe
23:48:14 <ion> I know him from elsewhere.
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23:50:04 <kmc> i wonder when 4TB drives will be reasonably priced and not shitty
23:51:35 <shachaf> What counts as "reasonably"?
23:52:18 <shachaf> Looks like you can get one for $300
23:52:39 <shachaf> That's not so bad.
23:52:53 <kmc> it's twice as much as a 3TB drive, though
23:53:45 <shachaf> 3TB is $150?
23:53:54 <kmc> ish
23:53:54 <shachaf> How times have changed, or something.
23:54:13 <kmc> and 2TB is like $110
23:54:29 <shachaf> I should get an external drive.
23:55:30 <kmc> my storage array is 99.6% full
23:56:25 <shachaf> How many TBs is that 0.4%?
23:56:43 <shachaf> I never petabyte I didn't like.
23:58:09 <kmc> 0.032
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