00:00:25 not as hardy as stop-karts 00:02:05 are those real russian words? 00:02:09 up there a bit 00:02:13 google can't translate most of them 00:02:27 хьюэлоняющие 00:19:33 whoah i didn't know kmc was still alive! 00:19:42 hi luite 00:19:46 hi kmc :) 00:19:52 you coming to bahug? ;) 00:24:11 kmc: don't lie, you'd play webcarting. 00:24:34 at least I would 00:26:28 i went go-karting once 00:26:31 it was terrifying 00:26:48 i almost went drunk go-karting in montenegro but decided against it 00:26:51 beacuse i am lame 00:28:07 > ord '@' - ord 'r' 00:28:08 -50 00:36:59 > ord '@' 00:37:00 64 00:37:05 :t ord 00:37:06 Char -> Int 00:37:35 What's ord in? 00:37:54 Prelude 00:38:43 No it isn't 00:38:58 At least not according to ghci 00:39:04 Bah 00:39:55 shachaf: Ok, i’m back and i felt like doing it. toList t = toList' (:) t []; toList' f (Leaf a) = f a; toList' f (Node t) = toList' (\(a,b) -> f a . f b) t 00:41:18 toList' needs a type signature, type inference seems unable to handle it. toList' :: (a -> b -> b) -> Tree a -> b -> b 00:41:19 FreeFull: Data.Char 00:41:34 ion: This is data Tree a = Leaf a | Node (Tree (a, a)) right? 00:41:39 yeah 00:42:03 elliott: This will be of great use to me 00:42:03 ion: Doesn't this work? toList (Leaf a) = [a]; toList (Node t) = toList (fmap fst t) ++ toList (fmap snd t) 00:42:26 ion: I have toList (Leaf x) = [x]; toList (Node t) = concatMap (\(x,y) -> [x,y]) (toList t) 00:42:37 Also needs a type signature. 00:42:42 Yours is more efficient, I guess. 00:43:16 ion: Now write fromList! 00:43:23 elliott: toList (Node (Node (Leaf ((4,5),(6,7))))) = [4,6,5,7] 00:44:11 ion: s/++/interleave/ then? 00:44:53 I think I get elliott's behavior if I use unzip instead of the thing I did. 00:45:22 anyway ion's implementation is obviously wrong because it's ugly 00:46:56 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:53:50 foldMap f (Leaf a) = f a; foldMap f (Node t) = foldMap (\(a,b) -> f a <> f b) t 00:54:08 and get toList for free 00:57:48 isn't your toList' just fold with a wonky argument order anyway 00:58:13 ion: btw fold > foldMap 00:58:23 i guess it's actually more awkward here though :/ 00:58:41 fold (Leaf a) = a; fold (Note t) = fold $fmap (uncurry mappend) t? 01:01:01 pikhq_: what's the one that isn't twisted neumatic called 01:01:06 IPS, thanks 01:02:03 ooh you can get IPS monitors cheapish nowadays?? 01:02:05 thanks monqy 01:03:26 yeah they are pretty cheap now 01:03:34 elliott: Yeah, that works. But you’ll also have to define foldMap f = fold . fmap f (or alternatively, foldr). 01:03:50 ion: pretty sure that's a default in Foldable 01:04:05 elliott: Alas, it isn’t. 01:04:19 The default foldMap uses foldr and the default foldr uses foldMap. 01:04:43 kmc: yeah this ASUS one is surprisingly cheap ($175 for 23" LED/IPS), downsides are seemingly that it has a really ugly placement of buttons jutting out from the bottom that would annoy me endlessly & that it actually has less than 96 ppi 01:04:48 elliott: http://techreport.com/review/23291/those-27-inch-ips-displays-from-korea-are-for-real 01:04:53 also it's asus and I seem to recall their displays are shit 01:04:58 so 01:05:06 I guess what I mean is they started selling bad IPS displays 01:05:35 oh it brags about 5 ms response time too 01:05:41 there are no-brand korean IPS monitors for really cheap 01:06:04 ion apparently just linked to that 01:06:12 27" is too big though :( i'm too small to use a 27" display 01:06:39 http://www.overclock.net/t/1225919/yamakasi-catleap-monitor-club 01:06:42 ah yeah 01:07:01 i have three dell IPS monitors at work 01:07:37 also they look too high-ppi for 2012 01:07:47 but i spent an unreasonable amount of money on them 01:07:58 everyone is still using pixels so I cannot buy a high-enough ppi monitor without annoyingness :( 01:08:35 if you want a 24" 16:10 monitor i like the Dell U2412M 01:08:38 it's about $300 at newegg 01:08:55 mm 01:09:00 i can't actually buy things from newegg because i am in the uk 01:09:06 I just find stuff on newegg and then pray someone sells it in the UK 01:09:09 heh 01:09:14 well i'm sure someone does sell this 01:09:18 and it is always for like twice the price when I do 01:09:24 they actually don't sell to UK or is the exchange rate just horrible? 01:09:31 they don't ship to uk 01:09:34 or at least 01:09:36 didn't years ago 01:09:37 maybe they do now 01:09:45 elliott: Say hi from me to the queen. 01:10:13 kmc: this one is 8 ms, it must be good 01:10:19 yeah i've heard you basically pay the same number of pounds as the US dollar price :/ 01:10:26 for electronics in the UK 01:10:27 how to judge monitors: look at the advertised response time 01:10:29 the higher it is, the better 01:10:39 And the dynamic contrast ratio. 01:11:24 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello). 01:11:36 kmc: i'm annoyed that the 14" displays are always 1920xwhatever 01:11:47 the ppi!!!!! so low!! 01:11:49 er 01:11:49 24" 01:11:51 all displays are 1920xwhatever basically 01:11:56 yeah 01:12:15 http://i.imgur.com/E00nl.gif 01:12:21 anyway i hear dell monitors are good 01:12:24 so maybe I should just look at those 01:12:28 The cheap Korean ones are 2560×something 01:12:53 i should get an IBM T221 01:13:10 conspicuous consumption and all that 01:13:29 hopefully the PC hardware industry will copy apple's retina display, like they copy everything else 01:13:37 kmc: Indeed. 01:13:57 About time to get a bit less sucky DPI values. 01:14:00 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/64/IBM_T221.jpg 01:14:07 ibm t221, because you don't want to be able to see your xterms 01:14:24 i think it actually shows itself as multiple displays to the graphics card or whatever 01:14:30 so you have to set up a multi-monitor OS setup to get it working 01:15:12 Ah, someone i know on IRC has one. 01:15:33 only updates at 41 Hz :/ 01:16:05 kmc: you only get so much from 2001 tech 01:17:27 [[You see, shortly after I mentioned on Twitter that I'd ordered one of these monitors, my friend Jeff Atwood of StackOverflow and SuperUser fame decided to order three of them on my "recommendation." Vaguely terrified, I tried to explain that my review was still forthcoming, but he wasn't dissuaded.]] 01:17:29 thanks jeff atwood 01:17:59 ion: you forgot to mention how the buttons are broken 01:18:19 good thing i am the kind of awful person who uses their display at full brightness always 01:19:06 oh 01:19:08 the buttons are just complicated 01:19:09 great 01:19:20 Buttons? You don’t need buttons where we are going. 01:19:53 "I fairly quickly realized that the flashing power LED above the buttons was an indicator: the faster or slower it flashed, the higher or lower the volume." 01:20:17 it is a good thing i don't have any use for in-monitor speakers 01:20:21 because ha ha LED that flashes constantly 01:20:26 elliott: Please tell your Amazon to ship (sorry, “dispatch”) my booke quickly. 01:20:31 theff atwood 01:20:54 ion: sorry but amazon is a bookstore not a bookestore looks like you got mislead!!! 01:20:58 elliott: I like to think that quote is about the T221 01:21:04 bookstor 01:21:25 bokehstore 01:22:10 kmc: sorry it's about the korean things 01:22:13 sory 01:22:33 i would like to live in a world where equipment does not have awful status LEDs 01:23:26 sometimes i disable them 01:23:35 hack your annoying LED using tape 01:23:41 that's work though 01:23:42 yes tape works 01:23:44 but tape is also sort of gross 01:23:50 on one computer i soldered a 10 kΩ resistor in series with the power LED 01:24:16 hm i bet i could sell a power LED dimmer that just plugs into the motherboard header 01:24:47 and then i could sell the Y3TI MUTILAT0R XTREME GAMER EDITION of that for$50 01:25:21 i think i know what happens next in this annual effort to upgrade my computer to something better than a toshiba half-laptop-half-netbook-from-a-few-years-ago 01:25:26 it's keyboard obsessiveness :( 01:30:07 "The fact that these two monitors are in a dead heat in response times comes as little surprise, since they both appear to lack an internal chip dedicated to scaling or other forms of image processing. Such chips enable all sorts of nice features, but they're also one of the primary contributors to input lag." 01:30:15 hm, I wonder what these are listed as in product descriptions so I can avoid them 01:30:42 do you actually care that much about lag 01:31:03 kmc: well it depends what you mean by care 01:31:04 don't monitors regularly get sub 10ms latency even with processing? 01:31:11 i have to at least pretend to care to myself 01:31:23 the other day my monitor crashed such that half the screen was overlaid with noise 01:31:29 and rebooting the monitor fixed it 01:32:05 the mission of all tech is to introduce as many points of failure as possible 01:33:22 * shapr agrees 01:35:38 kmc: do you know anything about the current state of SSDs? I am several years out of the loop 01:36:05 yeah there are a lot of credible alternatives now 01:36:19 http://www.storagereview.com/best_drives 01:36:32 only the intel drives were worth anything last time I checked, which was a long time ago 01:36:37 except some OCZ stuff was ok too or something 01:36:47 yeah that's how it was when i bought my first SSD 01:36:55 now Intel is still good but there are viable alternatives 01:37:38 I don't suppose capacity is high enough to use SSDs exclusively without being rich yet 01:37:51 admittedly this laptop just has a 256 gigabyte drive, but it's sort of not ideal 01:37:56 i recently bought a 240 GB Intel SSD 520 01:37:58 for $250 01:38:15 i'm happy with it so far 01:38:26 my laptop has an older Intel X25-M 80 GB 01:38:38 i find 80 GB is plenty of local storage 01:39:17 since i'm only running one OS and it's Linux 01:39:37 I have a 120 GB OCZ Vertex 3. I’ve been happy with it. 01:39:40 -!- Frooxius has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 01:39:56 kmc: well it depends what you mean by "local" 01:39:59 i have all my TV shows and music and such on a 10 TB fileserver 01:40:07 which i can sshfs-mount when i am at home 01:40:10 I only use one computer at a time, so pretty much everything gets centralised 01:41:28 i have a laptop and a file server and a desktop at work 01:41:46 also an ec2 instance which just runs irssi and finch 01:45:27 hm, i find 80GB too small for my laptop, got a samsung 830 256gb recently :) 01:46:29 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 01:47:04 -!- copumpkin has joined. 01:50:05 nice 01:50:22 "I also make bacon unicorn references on Twitter." 01:50:26 i will get a new laptop soon, and it will have more space because SSD space is so cheap now 01:50:29 that sure does win the prize for worst by-line ever 01:53:10 Not as cheap as HDD yet 01:54:04 sure but much cheaper than when i bought that 80 GB SSD back in 2009 01:58:20 Well hardware prices do tend to go down for PC stuff 01:58:59 keen observation 02:01:28 -!- FreeFull has quit (Quit: Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz). 02:02:19 FreeFull really has a way of stating obvious 02:02:51 i see they have started pushing the clock speed of processors back up 02:02:57 and dialing back the core numbers 02:04:35 how's that? 02:04:49 the new thing is "Turbo Boost" or whatever 02:05:01 which means that if only one core is active, it can use a higher clock than the max clock of allcores together 02:05:09 because the limiting factor is heat dissipation 02:05:41 well there is this "Intel Core i7-3770K Ivy Bridge 3.5GHz (3.9GHz Turbo) LGA 1155 77W Quad-Core Desktop Processor Intel HD Graphics 4000 BX80637I73770K" (catchy name) 02:05:48 last time the i7s were all like sub-3 ghz but 8-core 02:05:59 i doubt they were 8 core 02:06:13 they might have been erroneously advertised as such when they are 4 core with hyperthreading 02:06:44 i thought they were 02:06:56 maybe, how long ago was that 02:06:59 hm 02:07:00 apparently not 02:07:06 weird 02:07:14 maybe i am thinking of the nehalem xeon 02:08:37 yeah i don't think they have shipped more than 6 cores in a non-xeon chip 02:09:22 ugh I forgot computer cases are the land of living hell 02:09:30 everything is terrible 02:09:57 yeah your choices are ugly beige box or some ridiculous blinged out monstrosity with a plexi cutout of a dragon fucking a robot 02:10:14 i really like the Antec Three Hundred; it is a rare exception 02:10:26 i seem to remember deciding to buy an antec case last time 02:10:40 and it has good cable management stuff on the inside 02:11:00 other recommendation is don't buy fans smaller than 120 mm if you care about noise 02:11:18 and seal all places where dust might get in, with fan filters or just tape over them 02:11:51 yeah I was sufficiently obsessive to develop Opinions about fans last time 02:11:54 hopefully I can remember some of that by now 02:12:12 (this is why I never get anything done) 02:13:09 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811133188 wow look at this thing 02:13:14 what a mess 02:13:34 they should make an art exhibit filled with insane computer cases 02:14:11 it's called every brick and mortar computer store 02:14:37 that one is super ridiculous 02:14:56 it looks like a transformer 02:16:32 i like http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811147111 as a small cheap case but it's out of production or something 02:17:03 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811129042 appears reasonable 02:17:22 kmc: did the computer industry work out what kind of ATX it likes best yet 02:17:32 yep i have that one 02:17:35 the antec three hundred 02:17:36 it's good 02:17:47 I seem to remember deciding to get an Antec P182 last time, but apparently they don't exist now!! 02:17:53 elliott: shrug 02:18:04 elliott: *-ATX fits in a straight ATX case. 02:18:08 if you have a big case then it doesn't matter 02:18:09 right 02:18:20 if you want a small case then you might need a micro-ATX motherboard 02:18:26 which isn't really that small 02:18:34 it seems like there are more smaller-than-ATX mobos and cases than ATX stuff nowadays 02:18:48 The other *-ATX stuff is just smaller versions of ATX; they fit in a full ATX case, you just have a lot of empty space. 02:19:07 a lot of mobos are micro-ATX, yeah, because they don't need more space 02:19:18 Well, there's larger variants too but you are probably not getting them. 02:19:25 smaller stuff like mini-ITX is not compatible though 02:19:37 holy shit RAM is cheap these days 02:19:46 i mean even cheaper than it was before 02:19:48 -!- monqy has joined. 02:19:50 yeah seriously 02:19:53 Yes, RAM is cheaper than fuck. 02:20:02 yeah you can get 4 GB for like$15 02:20:06 you can't get a good fuck for that 02:20:12 See? 02:20:37 if I wanted I could buy 64 gigabytes of ram for $285 02:20:46 uses I have for 64 gigabytes of RAM: 02:21:13 yeah who even needs a SSD then 02:21:17 all your files will be cached forever 02:21:27 monqy: welcome back 02:21:34 monqy: weren't you just here a second ago 02:21:39 no 02:22:25 I wonder if I can convince myself buying 32GB of RAM for$140 is at all reasonable 02:22:35 why do you need it 02:22:58 monqy: that's the main problem :( 02:23:00 I'm sure some starving kids in africa could make much better use of all that ram 02:23:08 don't be silly monqy 02:23:12 they don't have computers in africa 02:23:28 elliott: you need 64GB for debugging ghc! 02:23:43 luite: you mean you need 64GB for compiling anything with ghc :P 02:23:51 that too 02:24:02 so is phantom hoovere blogging about brainfuck now 02:24:25 so is taneb blogging about brainfuck now 02:24:35 africa is such a poor country 02:25:27 hi kmc, luite, elliott, monqy, africa 02:25:41 "pleasure 2 meet u" 02:26:20 elliott: How do you think I feel with a measly 8GB? 02:26:36 I forget how many gb I have but I think it might be 2 02:26:38 maybe 4 02:26:40 I've got 4. 02:26:44 where's nortti 02:26:47 But, I'm using a few-years-old system. 02:26:57 Which only faintly resembles modernity. 02:26:59 I've got 4 and I run out just browsing the web 02:27:01 thanks 2012 02:27:01 new systems are for losers 02:27:21 monqy: are you calling me a loser!!! 02:27:23 flash player nearly makes my computer grind to a halt 02:27:24 I managed to get it so it's quite usable, though. 02:27:29 I now use LXDE and Opera. 02:27:30 monqy: do you use a dumpster computer 02:27:37 ion: Did you write fromList yet? 02:27:38 well sometimes it's fine 02:27:40 I'm using 2.6 gigs for tons and tons of tabs. 02:27:41 other times it grinds to a halt 02:27:42 pikhq_: xmonad uses less RAM than lxde 02:27:43 * elliott smug 02:27:55 Eh. 02:28:10 elliott: You know what uses less RAM than xmonad? 02:28:16 LXDE is a non-revolting DE. 02:28:24 shachaf: Nah, i’m playing FTL. 02:28:25 And doesn't make X leak like a sieve. 02:28:31 (XFCE has X resource leaks.) 02:28:33 shachaf: is it @ 02:28:44 is it twm 02:28:45 ion: Should I acquire FTL? 02:28:45 pikhq_: xmonad is a non-(revolting DE) 02:28:54 shachaf: Yes. It’s great. 02:28:55 elliott: I was thinking of Windows 3.11. 02:28:56 speaking of what's hot and new, what's the language of the future these days 02:29:01 elliott: Why yes, yes it is. 02:29:05 ion: Does it require OpenGL to run? :-( 02:29:08 I don't have OpenGL. 02:29:11 i love dumpster computers 02:29:14 also dumpsters 02:29:15 i hear FTL is a good roguelikelike except for the last bit which is bad 02:29:21 also it's actually a roguelike if you just press pause all the time 02:29:27 my friend made really good pear bread from some pears from the whole foods dumpster 02:29:38 (good rogue)like 02:29:56 kmc: do consumer motherboards support ECC RAM yet 02:30:09 I’d expect it to work well enough with software OpenGL implementations, but it might not. In any case, this is the best place to get it since you’ll get the DRM-free versions (Linux, too) as well as a Steam key. http://www.ftlgame.com/ 02:30:21 ion: I don't even have software GL. 02:30:29 i hear it's good roguelikelike except for i hear you need specific stuff or attack power or something to deal with the last bit. i don't know anything else about ftl 02:30:36 those are just the things everyone talks about 02:30:39 not what ftl actually is 02:30:41 monqy: right I hear the final boss cheats'' 02:30:52 by not letting you use a bunch of playstyles that are viable up to that point 02:30:56 elliott: oh no! 02:31:01 elliott: can i cheat'' too? 02:31:13 The boss is a challenge, but it’s winnable. 02:31:19 rm -rf final.boss 02:31:25 "how do u like that" 02:31:28 elliott: not to my knowledge 02:31:38 maybe sometime in the future I'll play a game 02:31:39 kmc: hooray 02:31:43 maybe some high end enthusiast ones 02:32:02 but maybe not because it would slow down kill3r overclockzzzz 02:32:57 you can use a server board in a desktop of course 02:33:06 but there are some drawbacks, like the onboard video is probably enormously shit 02:33:28 we did this at ksplice and the onboard video literally could not handle moving windows around on a normal 2D linux desktop 02:33:36 nice 02:33:36 it had like 8 MB of VRAM 02:33:45 well i plan to buy a video card of some sort 02:33:52 since intel integrated graphics are still shit right 02:33:56 except for having good linux support 02:34:06 i think they're pretty good 02:34:16 basically all laptops with integrated graphics have intel 02:34:32 don't expect to play the latest games on high settings 02:35:09 but how else can I delay the feeling of having spent an awful lot of money on a computer that is totally excessive for my needs 02:35:33 shachaf: Why don’t you have OpenGL? 02:35:45 yeah you better buy at least two high end video cards 02:35:46 ion: nvidia optimus 02:35:55 more like pessimus am i right 02:36:02 Yes. :-( 02:36:53 Shouldn’t mesa work on anything? 02:37:18 I've yet to get any xorg.conf to work. 02:38:24 perhaps bonghits will fix your xorg.conf 02:39:28 kmc: I don't I can do this alone. It'll have to be a joint effort. 02:39:31 kmc: remember that terrible optimus keyboard 02:39:53 yes 02:40:09 elliott: It was terrible? 02:42:08 it was extremely expensive because it has an OLED display under each key 02:42:20 they also make a much cheaper (still too expensive one) which just has transparent keys over a LCD 02:42:28 That doesn't sound terrible to me. 02:42:40 it probably sucks as a keyboard, i dunno 02:42:44 I don't *look* at my keys. 02:43:10 kmc: Just imagine the amazing Compose-key customizations you could make to it! 02:43:12 it's not so much a real product as an art / concept prototype, which people with far too much money could order on a small run basis 02:43:15 yeah! 02:43:16 man 02:43:18 that would be the best 02:43:47 pikhq_: in theory it would be useful for learning the keyboard shortcuts for a new application 02:43:59 you know, if the programs actually knew about it 02:45:15 It would be nice if I felt like learning the kana layout. 02:45:46 Though to do that "right" I'd probably also need the weird extra keys... 02:45:51 pikhq_ kana be bothered. 02:45:55 the black keys 02:46:03 The ones that would be right where the groove in my spacebar are. 02:46:04 Or maybe it would be more accurate to say that he ain't kana. 02:46:15 (seriously, I've got a freaking groove worn in my spacebar) 02:49:11 i read "i've got a freaking grove worm in my spacebar" 02:49:36 i read "three men in a boat" 02:49:43 heh 02:49:48 i read that after you told me to 02:50:04 http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100605031305/spyro/images/6/67/Grove_Worm.png 02:50:35 i didn't even know it's a thing 02:54:46 Java 2 Electrical Engineer 02:55:13 kmc: Did you read TaPL? 02:55:23 yeah 02:55:28 and some of ATaPL 02:55:44 Is it good to read if I want to learn more about type systems? 02:55:48 kmc: What's the difference between Sandy Bridge and Sandy Bridge-E and Ivy Bridge? :( 02:55:48 yes 02:55:57 ivy bridge is the new generation 02:56:15 e is some xeon version 02:56:34 hmm, why are they selling consumer processors with E then? 02:56:45 oh really? 02:56:55 Ivy Bridge is newest, it's the same architecture as Sandy but shrunk to 22 nm process, and with some minor additional features 02:57:31 -E is high end i7 and Xeon. 02:57:41 ah right 02:57:41 That is, it's *also* some consumer models. 02:57:41 a hardware RNG 02:57:45 Ivy Bridge is what you want. 02:57:46 and a semi useless kernel security feature 02:58:13 and faster gfx 02:58:21 i7s sure do seem more expensive than last time... I guess because now there's the whole i3/i5 split 02:58:36 elliott: Better wait for Haswell. 02:58:41 Haswell is the future. 02:59:00 If you can wait 'til June. 02:59:20 shachaf: Is Haswell like Haskell? 02:59:28 elliott: Yes. (No.) 02:59:33 I think you mean yes. 02:59:40 elliott: Well, it has transactional memory!!!! 02:59:44 elliott: Nah, it's the latest tock iteration of Intel's design cycle. 02:59:52 And, yeah, HTM. 02:59:55 pikhq_: Isn't it a tick iteration? 03:00:05 I see they aren't at single-digit nanometers yet 03:00:13 * shachaf suspects pikhq_'s clocks go backwards. 03:00:17 No, tick is the die shrink. 03:00:24 Oh. 03:00:28 Maybe it's my clocks, then. 03:00:32 Why do they have the major changes on tock? 03:00:33 That's really stupid. 03:00:33 Nah, it's Intel's clocks. 03:00:45 elliott: Beats me. 03:00:48 pikhq_: Intel's clocks aren't getting faster anymore. :-( 03:00:49 monqy: we know our clocks better, rght? 03:00:51 It makes a lot more sense for tock to be the die shrink. 03:01:03 shachaf: Instructions-per-clock keeps going up at least. 03:01:26 elliott: You should get a 32-core machine like kmc. 03:01:32 48 03:01:35 but it's not mine 03:01:37 OK, if kmc donates the funds. 03:01:41 elliott: You should get a 48-core machine like kmc. 03:01:43 And compile colonels on it. 03:01:50 i built it for ksplice and it's probably sitting unused in some oracle warehouse now 03:02:09 Haswell will apparently have 10% higher instructions-per-cycle than Ivy Bridge. 03:02:19 kmc: c'mon, where's my money 03:02:31 do you think we are joking, or making with the funny stuff 03:14:35 Meanwhile, a hay competition: http://ubuntuone.com/0FaPo5mnm0KHJ1M4W1P6US 03:30:09 I'm the Emperor, and I want dumplings! 03:30:53 ion: Help, is my type broken? 03:32:11 shachaf: No, you should simply use a dynamically typed language. 03:54:22 ion: I mean my Tree type. 03:54:27 It made sense before but now I don't get it. 03:54:33 Are the Humble Bundle ebooks worth reading? 03:54:36 20:15 That would be something like data Tree k a = One k a | Two (Tree k (k,a,a))? 03:54:43 I've read Cory Doctorow's Down and Out in the Magic Kingdom 03:56:31 shachaf: Your Tree type is known, IIRC. 03:56:38 there's a humble ebook bundle now? shit 03:56:41 cool 03:56:48 I think it has properties. 03:57:56 elliott: Is it even valid? 03:58:09 I wrote it but now I don't know how it works. 03:59:49 these all sound pretty good 04:00:00 except for doctorow's book, which sounds terrible 04:00:04 but i never really liked anything he wrote 04:01:03 I wouldn't buy anything with a Doctorow book in it just on principle. 04:01:31 Wait, what's wrong with Doctorow? 04:01:49 elliott would arrange the bundle such that you get a Doctorow book unless you pay more than the average. 04:03:00 hahaha shachaf 04:03:06 Sgeo: I don't know, I've been ignoring him for the forseeable past on account of him being annoying. 04:03:25 down and out was boring 04:03:33 But I seem to remember he has a penchant for oversimplification. 04:03:34 i just don't give a shit about disneyland 04:04:01 and all the futuristic post-singularity stuff was pretty standard sci-fi fare by the time i read it 04:04:24 And some of his other stuff just beats you over the head with politics. 04:04:30 It's obnoxious *even if you agree with him*. 04:04:36 eastern standard tribe was ok but i don't recall really enjoying it at any point 04:04:42 kmc: Have you read The Metamorphosis of Prime Intellect? 04:04:45 It's... certainly a book. 04:04:47 elliott: yes! 04:05:03 i really enjoyed that book when i was like 14 and found it through everything2 or kuro5hin or something 04:05:13 Likewise. 04:05:26 good times 04:05:28 Might've been 15, but eh. 04:05:31 Back when all the "cool websites" had digits in their names. 04:05:43 as opposed to missing vowels 04:05:59 kmc: By the way, how does it feel being over 9000 days old? 04:06:06 I hear there's a sequel coming out roughly never. 04:06:17 This reminds me I should finish catching up with Ra. 04:06:21 kmc: You've read Fine Structure, right? 04:07:29 -!- zzo38 has joined. 04:07:32 elliott, have you even finished Fine Structure yet? 04:07:37 elliott: no 04:07:53 shachaf: wow 04:08:00 Sgeo: Yes! I'm now going to invoke this fact: 04:08:07 kmc: What! Even *I've* read Fine Structure. 04:08:23 even monqy has read Fine Structure assuming he actually got round to it which is unlikely 04:08:23 kmc: Sam Hughes is awesome. 04:08:28 -!- Arc_Koen has quit (Quit: that's dr. turing to you, punk). 04:08:49 kmc, I am thirding the Fine Structure suggestion. 04:08:58 I have added some examples of FurryScript, some people asked for some examples 04:09:12 Hey, who said it was a suggestion??? 04:09:18 Maybe I hate Fine Structure and want to warn kmc off. 04:09:34 elliott: You *read* it. Surely you don't hate it. :P 04:09:53 pikhq_: you like everything you've read?? 04:10:10 elliott: pikhq_'s point is that you can't read Fine Structure and not like it. 04:10:16 elliott: No, but I suggest you can't read Fine Structure and hate it. 04:10:43 You might read it and neither like or hate it. 04:10:55 shachaf: I've got a TIP for you, get the POINT? 04:13:13 This is FurryScript truth-machine program: 1[ <1> 1# ] PAR DUP ~# 04:13:31 Static analysis of stack effects would be required to prove that it would work. 04:13:51 However, it does not actually work, for similar reasons as some of the other examples of truth-machine that doesn't work for the same reason. 04:14:11 for similar reasons as some of the other examples of truth-machine that doesn't work for the same reason. 04:14:15 Good point. 04:16:35 The implementation will work if you put 0 however, it will make 0 output and stop. 04:17:45 (If you are running the program on your own computer, the second command-line parameter is the input; if running on the form for custom scripts, use the PAS command to fill in the input.) 04:17:45 reading Fine Structure 04:35:01 what's a truth machine 04:36:32 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Truth-machine 04:36:48 Do you know what a cake machine is? 04:37:00 I'm just going to paste my pun in. 04:37:01 11:34 I found this to be a very nice informal intro: "Some of the best things in life are free; and some are not. Truth is free. Having proved a theorem, you may use this proof as many times as you wish, at no extra cost. Food, on the other hand, has a cost. Having baked a cake, you may eat it only once. If traditional logic is about truth, then linear logic is about food" 04:37:07 11:35 Unless you're Zeno. 04:37:10 11:35 Zeno knew how to halve his cake and eat it too. 04:39:14 heh 04:51:49 oh i thought this was going to be about the cake being a lie 04:54:26 05:26 < kmc> where's nortti // I was sleepinh 04:54:56 hi nortti 04:55:01 Welcome back to awakeness. 04:55:09 kmc: Did you notice your 9000th birthday? 04:56:02 kmc: I wonder whether _Typing Haskell in Haskell_ is a good example of literate programming. 04:59:54 -!- sivoais has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 05:04:05 -!- sivoais has joined. 05:14:33 -!- mig22 has joined. 05:25:21 i did not notice it 05:25:26 but you did 05:25:31 which is weird but cool 05:25:43 anyway i have to sleep now, ttyl 05:41:17 me too 05:41:42 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 05:42:17 -!- copumpkin has joined. 06:29:55 elliott, monqy UPD8 06:30:33 monqy never gets better 06:30:38 What does linear logic mean? 06:30:44 linear logic 06:31:07 O, I found in Wikipedia, OK 06:36:08 Is it possible to make up a type system similar to Haskell but also has kinds for linear logic instead of only intuitionistic? 06:36:50 (There are some cases I have thought of where I have wanted something like this) 06:50:24 -!- nooga has joined. 06:54:36 -!- ais523 has quit. 07:00:41 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 07:17:25 Is the list of stuff put near the top of the page is OK? Do you like this? http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Zzo38/FurryScript 07:25:13 There Once Was A Fish Named Fred 07:25:19 best esoland or bestestest esolang? 07:25:30 unit besting 07:26:23 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:26:37 “(However, note that it is being discussed this notice might be wrong.)” That should be followed by “(However, note that it is being discussed also this notice might be wrong.)” 07:30:36 shachaf: I don't know! 07:33:37 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:34:23 zzo38: "(there must be a space after [ and before and after ] however)" 07:34:31 Can you drop the requirement for a space after ]? 08:21:40 -!- epicmonkey has joined. 08:22:20 -!- hagb4rd has joined. 08:32:44 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 08:35:12 -!- epicmonkey has joined. 08:36:05 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 08:37:40 -!- atriq has joined. 08:40:59 -!- zzo38 has joined. 08:48:41 zzo38, you've mentioned going to conventions in the past, correct? 08:49:58 Yes 08:50:19 What kind of conventions? 08:50:30 The unconventional kind, no doubt. 08:50:31 shachaf: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it. 08:53:48 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:53:59 -!- epicmonkey has joined. 08:55:02 I went to anime convention 08:55:23 Just out of curiosity, were there many Homestucks? 08:55:38 I don't think so. 08:58:02 How long ago was this? 08:58:12 A few months ago. 08:58:18 Unusual 09:00:23 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 09:04:36 No crowd of people being weird wearing grey make-up and orange horns? 09:05:03 I think there were two. 09:05:10 Not a lot. 09:05:14 Yes 09:05:20 Hmm 09:05:27 Okay 09:05:57 I guess there are either a lot of Homestucks around here or they're really organized 09:07:17 Hmm 09:07:32 I wonder if the "her" mentioned on Koen's user page refers to someone specific 09:09:05 The list is kind of coffee-oriented. 09:09:32 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello). 09:10:22 Hmm hmm 09:10:40 I've got an ssh server on my other computer, and I want to access some HTML pages on there from here 09:11:04 It does still have "find her" which doesn't sound all that specific; then again, it just might be someone specific but in hiding. 09:11:09 Is there a way I can set it up so I can point my browser at file////whatever/othercomputer/whatever/file.html 09:11:11 And have it work 09:12:19 You can do 'sshfs othercomputer:/place /anotherplace" on thefirstcomputer, and then you can just use file:///anotherplace/thing to access the /place/thing of othercomputer. 09:12:34 At least with luck, and with sshfs+fuse installed. 09:13:04 Also it's probably best not to mix ' and " like I did there. 09:14:37 Thanks 09:16:06 This is a VERY roundabout way to mess with haskell 09:21:40 Okay, that's a VERY good reason for that to not work 09:43:49 "Warning: If you don't follow the instructions correctly, the result may be an unbootable Linux. Even if you do follow the instructions correctly, the result may be an unbootable Linux." 09:46:22 An unbootable Linux is always an option. 09:51:58 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:04:14 -!- Slereah_ has changed nick to Slereah. 10:06:53 fizzie: More like an inscrutable Linux, right? 10:10:32 atriq: ...the usual way to access HTML pages is via a HTTP server 10:16:29 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 10:22:27 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 10:23:19 Lumpio-, advise on setting one up? 10:43:20 pacman -S nginx 10:46:30 That... appears to be a pacman game 10:47:07 Did I do something wrong? 10:48:37 You probably used the "wrong" Linux distribution. 10:48:49 (All of them are wrong.) 10:49:06 Is Solaris the wrong Linux distribution? 10:49:08 I think Arch system maintanence would be a lot less stressful if pacman(1) was just a pacman game. 10:49:27 I think I can definitively state that Solaris is, in fact, the most wrong a Linux distribution can possibly be. 10:49:33 I concur. 10:49:44 Okay, because I'm not using that 10:49:48 How about Windows 98 SE? 10:50:00 Windows 98 SE is quite a good Linux distribution IMO. 10:50:10 I mean, it's better than Solaris. 10:50:17 All the cool dudes use Windows 98 SE Linux. 10:50:55 My favourite Linux distribution is BeOS. 10:51:03 When GHC gets ported to Haiku I'll probably use Haiku 10:51:32 (actually serious) 10:54:06 -!- mig22 has quit (Quit: mig22). 11:04:11 Actually, wait 11:04:19 I'd need nVidia drivers 11:04:52 -!- mig22 has joined. 11:12:27 -!- ais523 has joined. 11:32:03 ais523: hi 11:32:28 hi elliott 11:32:30 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 11:32:38 I'm busy adding /ˈæmbiːɛf/ to the wiki 11:33:27 ais523: come up with an ascii redirect or i'll kill you :P 11:33:31 -!- elliott1 has joined. 11:33:33 im a test 11:33:40 oklofok, help 11:33:41 there's a link in the language list 11:33:44 i need guidance 11:33:59 ais523: but I like typing http://esolangs.org/wiki/$x 11:34:17 OK, I'll add a redirect from [[$x]] 11:34:19 and not explain it 11:34:30 :( 11:34:50 object-oriented thue is terrible right 11:35:14 it sounds terrible but my brain is too mathsed to bother wading through that spec 11:37:24 ais523: you know about protocols right 11:37:39 ais523 knows all the protocols 11:37:46 he has to otherwise he might accidentally break a law 11:47:38 elliott: OK, added 11:47:45 http://esolangs.org/wiki/$x 11:48:01 ais523: that redirect goes to an interesting place 11:48:07 -!- mig22 has quit (Quit: mig22). 11:48:16 oh hmm 11:48:19 maybe it is xchat haha 11:49:27 xchat doesn't like the link? 11:49:43 ais523: you have a bad category 11:49:45 try http://esolangs.org/wiki//%CB%88%C3%A6mbi%CB%90%C9%9Bf/ instead 11:49:47 which one? 11:49:48 tape-based? 11:49:50 ye 11:49:52 you can fix it, it's a wiki 11:49:57 didn't know if BF derivatives got that one 11:49:58 i'm lazy tho 11:50:03 OK, I'll fix it 11:50:10 ais523: by bad i mean 11:50:11 it's a redlink 11:50:21 and yr article is the only entry 11:50:25 oh right 11:50:31 meh, it shouldn't be included anyway 11:51:02 anyway, going home, I need sleep 11:51:24 ais523: here i was just about to ask you programming questions too!! 11:51:25 you win this time 11:51:27 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: Page closed). 11:51:45 fizzie: Guess whose lucky day it is?? 11:52:17 I think it's most definitely not mine. 11:53:25 fizzie: Correct! 11:54:31 fizzie: Is there some kind of generic thing that encapsulates a protocol and gives it encryption (and ideally authentication?) so my server/client don't have to worry about it per se? My current best idea is just opening "ssh server connect-to-local-server-socket-and-hook-stdio-to-it" as a process and using that as the "socket", which seems a bit... suboptimal. 11:56:53 Well, uh. Certainly there are rather generic encrypted-and-optionally-authenticated transport channels. TLS, for example. But maybe that's not what you mean. 11:57:41 fizzie: Right, I thought TLS might be what I'm thinking of. I... guess I'll go look into that. 11:58:04 (I don't suppose TLS supports SSH public-key authentication. :p) 11:58:46 Mostly TLS seems to have lots of complex fiddly thingies I'm not sure I care about, like certificate-signing and so on. 11:59:22 At least not normally, no; the authentication aspects are traditionally all X.509. 11:59:54 Right. That sounds like it could potentially be a pain to set up on clients and stuff "just" for this thing I'm working on. 12:01:13 So maybe I'll just go with the ssh thing after all. 12:01:58 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 12:02:28 Still. 12:02:32 Aren't these things meant to be nice? 12:02:37 I think TLS supports pre-shared key ciphersuites, if that's an option. Of course it's not quite SSH public keys. 12:03:21 (But it's not dabbling with certificates either.) 12:03:58 fizzie: I don't even know what a ciphersuite is. 12:04:01 I'm bad at this stuff. 12:04:27 IS IT: a suit you wear in bad cyberpunk novels that encrypts your travels through CYBERSPACE with a cipher? 12:05:18 Just a term they use. "The fiddly details," sort of. A name for the particular pile of encryption and authentication and whatnot algorithms that are used. 12:06:26 Right. I mean, I don't even know if the typical Linux system has the programs you need to set such a thing up, though. 12:06:42 It sounds fiddlier than making an ssh key, which takes 0 seconds because everyone* has one. 12:06:46 *Everyone that matters. 12:08:27 I didn't know whether TLS libraries support the TLS-PSK things if it's an extension; based on a quick google, though, at least GnuTLS does, and has helper functions to generate and hex-encode/decode keys. But, really, for pre-shared keys, it's just K random bits. 12:08:51 Right. 12:08:53 OpenSSL API isn't IIRC the most pleasant to work with. GnuTLS probably isn't any nicer, though. 12:09:13 Hmm, I guess I could do some sort of ssh tunneling deal rather than "ssh server connect-to-local-server-socket-and-hook-stdio-to-it". 12:09:18 That seems... less awful, maybe. 12:09:27 fizzie: Well, I don't anticipate talking to it directly from C. 12:09:44 That's always nice. 12:10:43 Anyway this is all sounding awfully complicated. :( 12:11:21 There are netcat-like tools that provide encrypted pipes, but it's arguable whether that's really any better than your SSH method. 12:11:28 Possibly the optimal solution may depend on what's comfortably available for your implementation language. 12:12:01 * elliott doesn't even know that, except that it's almost certainly one of Haskell, Python or C, and probably not C. 12:12:06 My planning: woefully under. 12:12:29 -!- Arc_Koen has joined. 12:12:49 hello 12:14:53 Hey 12:15:12 Arc_Koen, is the "her" mentioned on your user page someone specific, or just a general goal? 12:15:28 just a general goal 12:15:37 though there are specific candidates 12:15:41 elliott: SSL does have the advantage that I'd expect most decent things have a way to speak it. (And everyone has the openssl command line tools installed, so fiddling with the certificates isn't too many orders of magnitude more complicated than fiddling with SSH public keys, except the commands are a lot uglier.) 12:16:37 fizzie: Right. 12:16:58 fizzie: I don't suppose it gets any easier if I settle for password-based authentication? 12:18:15 Well. A TLS encrypted-only channel with just a password query would be easy, but also somewhat MITM-risky, since there's no way to detect someone just forwarding all traffic in the middle. 12:19:22 SSH at least has the host key checks. Assuming the user just doesn't type "yes" to all questions. 12:19:47 fizzie: Right. Well, in this case it's more the server trying to keep riff-raff out than much about the client trusting the server. 12:21:34 Apparently there's also a "TLS-SRP" password-based-key-exchange authentication extension, implemented in the usual libraries. 12:21:38 -!- nooga has joined. 12:22:19 atriq: I'm surprised you read that already 12:22:25 I read EVERYTHING 12:22:34 Even minds. 12:22:35 So you can nowadays do TLS with certificates, with pre-shared keys, or with passwords. Fancy. 12:22:36 (disclaimer: I don't actually read everything) 12:24:07 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 12:25:07 Help 12:25:23 atriq: hi 12:26:37 I think I'm being flirted at 12:27:30 atriq: Shoot a cloud of ink to hide behind, and then slink away. 12:30:58 how do I put a link to http://esolangs.org/wiki//ˈæmbiːɛf/ on the wiki? 12:31:18 the starting / seems to be confusing the wiki 12:31:24 [[:/ˈæmbiːɛf/]] 12:31:30 well, [[:/ˈæmbiːɛf/|]] 12:32:17 oh tahnk you 12:32:44 (and then common sense tell me I could've seen how ais did on the languages list) 12:42:09 so i : just a symbol to say "don't treat this link like you usually do" or does it mean something like . and .. in a unix shell? 12:47:33 format is [[namespace:foo]] 12:47:40 like [[Template:Blah]] 12:47:42 or [[Esolang:Policy]] 12:47:47 the "main" namespace's name is an empty string 12:48:00 if you do [[:foo]] then it's the page named foo... otherwise [[/foo]] is interpreted as a subpage of the current page 12:48:03 i.e. [[:thispage/foo]] 12:49:15 So it kind of is like Unix's "." 12:50:12 it's more like unix's / 12:50:16 yeah 12:50:21 [[foo]] is like ./foo 12:50:24 [[:foo]] is like /foo 12:50:46 and [[foo:bar]] is like C:\bar because now the metaphor is windows 12:50:56 haha 12:51:22 and how to make a distinction between a subpage and a page that has a / in it? 12:51:35 Do you need to? 12:52:55 I don't know 13:09:32 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 13:14:59 -!- mig22 has joined. 13:16:08 -!- boily has joined. 13:21:03 Arc_Koen, there is no distinction. 13:21:19 a/b is a subpage of a if a exists, otherwise it's just a page with a / in the name. 13:21:31 oh, ok 13:21:40 -!- jiella has joined. 13:22:34 -!- nooga has joined. 13:24:45 wikipedia has at least two maps of the island that thomas the tank engine is set on 13:30:20 Sodor? 13:33:48 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 13:35:33 -!- aloril_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 13:36:07 Are there any spoken programming languages? 13:36:22 Sure 13:36:25 Go get a nerd 13:36:26 fizzie: Can your department hack up a spoken programming language please? :-) 13:36:31 Tell him "Make a program that does this" 13:36:49 I was thinking more like lojban->Haskell 13:36:52 * shapr thinks about that 13:37:06 Spoken or written is just the medium 13:37:15 I guess if there's an easy way to turn spoken lojban into text, that would be enough. 13:37:18 You could just say out loud written Haskell 13:37:28 And get a speech to text converter 13:37:39 Lojban isn't really any more programmy than any other language 13:37:53 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 13:37:56 Also there's Plain English, but that is the worst language 13:39:20 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 13:39:48 There are plenty of (buggy) english-to-*-compilers out there, though 13:40:32 shapr: I don't think we have investigated recognition of spoken (existing) programming languages, let alone tried to make an easily-recognizable new language. 13:41:51 Don't you remember Plain English, fizzie! 13:41:56 From osmonian or something 13:42:17 I mean "we" as in our department. 13:42:31 It's not like I could forget Plain English, no. 13:42:32 What department 13:42:57 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 13:43:43 The department that the speech recognition/synthesis research group that I'm in is part of. 13:43:55 http://www.osmosian.com/ 13:44:01 I HATE THEM SO MUCH 13:44:34 The Osmosian Order! Man, they're wacky. 13:44:55 shapr: I'm not sure if anyone mentioned fungot's implementation language to you yet, so let me just do a shameless plug here. 13:44:56 fizzie: but that makes things worse than ever! everybody is going straight to the top, since who cares! the utahraptor's been having a bad time to say all the run-of-the-mill thoughts we have! 13:44:59 ^source 13:44:59 http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98 13:45:13 Yes, it made things worse than ever. 13:45:58 -!- nooga has joined. 13:47:35 -!- aloril_ has joined. 13:48:09 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 13:51:19 -!- boily has quit (Quit: Poulet!). 13:52:47 fizzie: That's terrifying. 13:56:54 -!- atriq has quit (Quit: Leaving). 13:59:25 Stratos jump successful http://youtu.be/yFU774q6eVM 14:08:01 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 14:12:41 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 14:12:47 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 14:16:36 -!- atriq has joined. 14:19:18 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:36:20 -!- mig22 has left. 14:40:12 -!- copumpkin has joined. 14:49:46 -!- augur has joined. 14:55:31 -!- Lumpio- has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 15:03:33 -!- FreeFull has joined. 15:07:59 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 15:08:01 -!- AnotherTest has left. 15:08:06 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 15:08:10 Hello 15:09:49 Hi 15:12:13 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 15:14:21 -!- Frooxius has joined. 15:21:27 -!- Lumpio- has joined. 15:49:55 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 15:50:17 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 15:58:54 -!- nooga has joined. 16:06:40 -!- ogrom has joined. 17:03:37 -!- atriq has quit (Quit: Leaving). 17:13:45 -!- Vorpal has joined. 17:15:33 -!- elliott1 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 17:15:50 -!- elliott has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 17:17:13 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 17:17:27 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 17:22:15 -!- impomatic has joined. 17:23:48 -!- atriq has joined. 17:33:12 You know, at the beginning of the American Civil War, the confederates thought that they could count on the support of the British, because Britain imported a lot of cotton from them. 17:33:45 However, when they asked for military aid, Britain thought "why bother" and got cotton from Egypt instead, which turned out to be cheaper. 17:33:55 The moral of the story is, don't rely on the British? 17:34:46 haha 17:37:42 never underestimate the ability of the british to screw you over? 17:38:00 the chinese can attest to that one too 17:38:55 afaict the opium wars were basically a bond villain plan 17:40:07 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:43:52 "Well, Mister Bond, you have discovered my plan to sell opium to China so we can afford tea and they'll be too high to care!" 17:43:55 "Hahahaha" 17:44:08 (I don't know that much about the Opium wars) 17:44:26 -!- augur has joined. 17:44:33 i think at some point the chinese tried to foil this fiendish plan by banning opium 17:44:37 this is where the wars come in 17:45:50 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 17:47:01 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 17:52:07 Arc_Koen, did you ever try Homestuck again? 17:52:17 "ever" 17:52:25 Since, well, yesterday evening 17:52:31 last time was about 14 hours ago 17:52:31 Did you get that hot chocolate? 17:52:35 yes 17:52:36 yes I did 17:53:00 well, the chocolate I got about two hours ago, actually 17:53:06 talk about delaying 17:53:51 I'm currently implementing deadfish in thue 17:53:51 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 17:54:00 (and also wondering why I'm doing that) 17:54:14 -!- augur has joined. 18:06:18 -!- zzo38 has joined. 18:07:38 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 18:07:46 http://esolangs.org/wiki/The_Best_Place_To_Grab_Cash_Financing_Very_Quickly ? 18:08:06 I need to make an esolang REALLY QUICKLY 18:09:09 I have a good idea atriq 18:09:19 How developed 18:09:58 is your idea? 18:10:38 -!- AnotherTest1 has joined. 18:10:39 (note: this idea might not work out, and if it does, it will be virtually impossibe to write a program in this language) 18:10:46 and sorry for disconnecting 18:10:59 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Disconnected by services). 18:11:12 -!- AnotherTest1 has changed nick to AnotherTest. 18:12:29 (look at Fueue and Eodermdrone and Malbolge) 18:12:54 atriq: are you interested in languages with randomness? 18:13:08 I'm more interested in functional languages 18:13:16 oh 18:13:18 okay 18:13:25 then my idea is probably not for you 18:13:33 Nah, I want to hear it 18:14:06 okay so, this is only a vague idea (keep that in mind): 18:15:14 A is parsed into a tree. So the root node would be the first instruction, and then a random number is generated in the range (for example) [1, 5] 18:15:28 this number determines the number of child nodes the root has 18:16:13 Okay 18:16:14 next, each of the child nodes will (if enough instructions are available) also get a random amount of child nodes in the range [1, 5] 18:16:30 this continues until there are no more instructions 18:16:48 then the execution starts as following: 18:17:02 The root instruction is executed 18:17:13 Then a random child of this root node is executed 18:17:25 this process continues until a node without children is reached 18:17:35 That's it basically 18:18:34 I'm not entirely sure whether it would be possible to write an actual program (that does something that makes sense) in this language 18:19:52 Hmm 18:19:53 -!- ogrom has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 18:21:12 It would be an accomplishment to write a hello world program in such a language 18:25:06 The Code Poems book appears to have been published... http://wired.co.uk/news/archive/2012-10/12/code-poems-book - not sure about the availability 18:26:20 atriq: so, what do you think? 18:26:36 Could be interesting 18:28:09 Well, if we want to to make this, we will need to determine the details 18:28:23 -!- Por_gammer has joined. 18:28:39 for example, what would be the basic instructions? 18:29:06 `welcome Por_gammer 18:29:08 I was also thinking to have the memory as a tree (with randomness when going down, but not when going up) 18:29:16 Por_gammer: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) 18:29:28 "Scala macros are, in fact, cats." 18:30:46 atriq: what if we took the brainfuck instructions, and organized them in this new manner? 18:30:50 uhmm... hi? 18:30:54 Hey 18:30:57 -!- sipa has left. 18:31:04 AnotherTest, I think it may work well with function-y ness 18:31:23 atriq: also good 18:31:42 Define each function to be n-adic where n is any number from 1 to 5 18:31:49 Then you can use the whole tree 18:32:01 n-adic? 18:32:16 Taking n inputs 18:32:21 ah 18:33:34 atriq: so you want to make a fully functional language, where the flow of instructions is in this manner? 18:33:49 It could work 18:33:57 Yes, perhaps 18:34:25 If each subtree is a function from a tree to a tree 18:34:36 -!- Gregor has set topic: BE WARNED: The people here are the completest asses. | http://phantom-hoover.tumblr.com/ | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/. 18:34:56 we are donkeys? 18:35:04 So the only data type is a tree of ...? 18:35:09 nortti: The completest. 18:35:09 Functions 18:35:12 and afunction 18:35:27 What is an incomplete donkey? 18:35:29 oh a function is a tree 18:35:34 I get it 18:36:00 FireFly: The truest of tragedies :'( 18:39:34 so, atriq, suppose you said fun a (with possibly function b as argument) = (+ 1) b; It would do either b or (+1) (so it would either be 1 or b + 1) 18:39:55 I think so! 18:40:02 I haven't really thought of this much 18:40:29 So you can specify an amount of arguments, but it's not certain that they will get passed 18:41:38 f(x, y, z) = x + y + z might do x, y, z, x + y, y + z or x + z 18:41:52 assuming that the parameters that are not passed are 0 18:42:25 or are the neutral element for the operation that is being done (thus when multiplying they equal 1) 18:42:41 It might also do nothing 18:42:43 Or when composing they equal the identity function 18:43:37 Yes f(x, y, z) = (x · y · z)(1) might thus be 1 18:43:57 (assuming · is actually an open dot, which it is not unfortunately) 18:47:08 -!- epicmonkey has joined. 18:48:19 -!- boily has joined. 18:49:52 -!- atriq has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 18:51:18 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:51:51 half-hi all! 18:52:39 h all? 18:52:42 i all? 18:53:15 maybe something like *bwarg*. half-my mouth is frozen from the dentist. 18:54:01 So your dentist injects dry ice instead of novocaine too! 18:54:04 I thought that was just mine! *whew* 18:54:28 injecting dry ice 18:54:30 new one on me 18:54:31 dry ice? 18:54:42 I'd be very surprised if it was dry ice. 18:54:49 particularly given it's a solid 18:54:51 but they went and used multiple products. 18:56:26 Gregor probably just doesn't understand because nobody trusts his country with the good anaesthetics 18:56:54 HA HA YOU GUYS ARE BAD AT JOKES 18:57:09 The joke was that “frozen” is a bizarre word choice. 18:57:36 *we're* bad at jokes? 18:57:39 pardon my French :p 18:57:48 how many members of monty python were american again?? 18:58:03 terry gilliam? 18:58:06 Aaaaand Phantom_Hoover thinks that Monty Python was about jokes. 18:58:06 Yikes. 18:58:18 no, mostly i did that for the terry gilliam thing 18:58:26 a "half-my" mouth is an interesting concept ... I guess the other half belongs to the novocaine 18:59:02 shows how affected I am by the intervention... 19:00:05 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 19:01:56 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:02:20 -!- atriq has joined. 19:07:03 http://fi3.eu.apcdn.com/full/63422.jpg 19:08:08 as if stallman would have children 19:09:07 Hello Android! HAW HAW HAW 19:10:57 -!- augur has joined. 19:11:18 -!- Taneb has joined. 19:17:51 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:20:39 Oh dear god I've cloned myself 19:22:24 atriq: here is an idea of a name for an esolang 19:22:28 hope it inspires you 19:22:43 "Talk talk: Turing tarpit" 19:22:54 -!- Taneb has quit (Disconnected by services). 19:23:22 -!- Taneb has joined. 19:24:05 -!- Taneb has quit (Disconnected by services). 19:24:31 -!- Taneb has joined. 19:26:49 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk_talk:Turing_tarpit 19:27:20 I was planning to make this a language one day or the other but I don't really have a proper idea yet 19:27:43 I was thinking maybe something self-modifying in the same vein as emmental (except a turing tarpit) 19:28:19 so if you have a proper idea any time soon, go ahead :) 19:28:59 beware the turing armpit, where [expunged] 19:29:16 thing is I really need to make a language heavily inspired by nomics but I don't have a consistent idea yet 19:31:04 beware the turing armpit, where everything is possible but nothing is smooth? 19:41:07 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 19:41:33 kmc, remember when I was talking Common Lisp and was trying to work out how to get the lexical environment to show off that whatever we were talking about could be done in Common Lisp, and I gave up? 19:42:00 Pretty sure it could be done in Common Lisp, because I did it in Clojure and I think Common Lisp is sufficiently similar in regards to the basic concept 19:42:03 https://www.refheap.com/users/sgeo 19:42:05 oops 19:42:11 https://www.refheap.com/paste/5886 19:49:12 !rot13 renslo 19:49:14 erafyb 19:50:04 not funny :( 19:50:12 !rot13 turing 19:50:13 ghevat 19:50:30 !rot13 guro 19:50:30 theb 19:50:43 !rot13 gura 19:50:43 then 19:51:36 !rot13 cymru cymry 19:51:37 plzeh plzel 19:51:52 !rot13 clojure 19:51:53 pybwher 19:51:55 !rot13 welsh 19:51:55 jryfu 19:52:47 ok, rot13 is boring again 19:53:17 !rot13 na na. na na na na. 19:53:17 an an. an an an an. 19:55:12 !rot13 mana mana 19:55:13 znan znan 19:55:20 !rot13 ééééééé 19:55:21 ​ééééééé 19:55:24 meh. 19:55:48 would have been nice if it had outputed somthing like ŕŕŕŕŕ 19:56:22 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 19:56:51 !rot13 hey hey hey goodbye 19:56:52 url url url tbbqolr 19:57:00 o.O 19:57:11 !rot13 na na. na na na na. hey hey hey. 19:57:12 an an. an an an an. url url url. 19:58:01 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:59:58 An url!? 20:00:17 !rot13 earl 20:00:17 rney 20:00:25 !rot13 Renae 20:00:26 Eranr 20:00:57 !rot13 Renee 20:00:58 Erarr 20:00:58 ^rot13 can you do UPPERCASE? 20:00:59 pna lbh qb HCCREPNFR? 20:01:06 !rot13 error 20:01:06 reebe 20:01:20 I could play this game all day 20:01:27 !rot13 rebate 20:01:27 erongr 20:01:33 ... 20:01:48 !rot13 ignore 20:01:48 !rot13 Sgeo 20:01:48 vtaber 20:01:48 Ftrb 20:01:54 !rot13 my nick 20:01:54 zl avpx 20:02:04 !rot13 vtable 20:02:05 ignoyr 20:02:21 !rot13 verticle tabber 20:02:21 iregvpyr gnoore 20:02:32 !rot13 vertical tabber 20:02:33 iregvpny gnoore 20:02:37 I learned how to spell! 20:04:18 !rot13 shatbg 20:04:19 fungot 20:05:26 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 20:06:05 ^rot13 shat up 20:06:05 fung hc 20:06:32 fhng hc 20:09:43 atriq: so, any idea for Talk talk: Turing Tarpit? 20:10:14 "talk talk" sounds like the french onomatopoeia for knock knock 20:11:25 so I was thinking something about a nomic-inspired turning tarpit with something about doors 20:11:29 -!- FireFly has quit (Excess Flood). 20:11:56 -!- FireFly has joined. 20:13:06 Not really 20:13:12 Something like dupdog, maybe? 20:13:59 if I recall correctly dupdog was something about WARNING: Don't Spend Your Whole Night Trying To Understand Dupdog!!! 20:14:31 also tarpit looks like the french word for carpet 20:14:39 so maybe something with doors and carpets 20:15:35 actually that's consistent with the idea of a turning tarpit: you're in a circular, spinning room with lots of doors and a nice rug under your feet (and instructions are behind the doors) 20:16:25 oh wait no I'm mistaking it with something else 20:16:36 dupdog is that thing using the length of the source code, right? 20:16:57 but what happens if you shuffle too much in that room? wouldn't trying to read the instructions cause an electric discharge and fry them? 20:17:28 ouh, nice 20:17:51 like, sometimes door can open in the middle of two instructions? 20:18:23 * Arc_Koen adds that to his list of potentially-interesting-ideas 20:24:00 oh, or a non-deterministic language using the same idea as ais523's amBF, where instructions are in a circle, and everytime you use the symbol for an instruction, one of the three instructions (previous, that one, next) will be executed instead 20:24:53 (by "in the same idea as /'æmbeef/" I don't mean it needs to be a brainfuck-derivative) 20:33:32 -!- augur has joined. 21:04:20 -!- Vorpal has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 21:05:49 -!- atriq has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:12:02 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 21:38:57 -!- zzo38 has joined. 21:46:08 -!- boily has quit (Quit: Poulet!). 21:48:56 there should be an "invent your own cargo cult C performance rule" contest 21:49:03 a la http://chronicle.com/blogs/linguafranca/2012/10/03/a-new-contest-centered-around-usage/ 21:51:38 * Sgeo pokes kmc 21:52:11 yes? 21:53:13 https://www.refheap.com/paste/5886 getting the lexical environment, both variable symbols and values, in Clojure 21:53:22 And a similar concept should work in Common Lisp, I think 21:54:00 Do you like this? http://www.chessvariants.org/index/msdisplay.php?itemid=MSsecretbombsche 21:54:55 kmc, 21:55:38 -!- nys has joined. 21:55:39 And of course, it should be easy to write an eval that takes such a map and wraps its argument in a let 22:00:58 zzo38: why "Cannot escape pictorial checkmate."? 22:01:58 checkmate usually means "you're in check and cannot escape" - if you change the rules, then it seems only logical that it affects the possibilities of checkmate 22:02:27 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 22:02:30 unless those new rules have actually been tested and it has been decided it's actually better this way 22:04:08 (also, I've never seen the phrase "pictorial checkmate" before, but I assume it means "a position that would be a checkmate if we were playing regular fide chess") 22:04:23 Arc_Koen: Yes, that is what "pictorial checkmate" means, and I have seen it before. 22:08:06 zzo38: have you had a look at http://www.chessvariants.org/large.dir/contest84/orwellchess.html ? 22:09:52 I am looking now. 22:14:03 Not bad. 22:20:37 that's the chess variant I've been the most impressed with 22:20:55 and I'm looking (not actively, though) for an opportunity to play it 22:23:31 -!- copumpkin has joined. 22:24:25 Maybe make up some pieces and board you can do it 22:24:43 yes 22:25:19 I was thinking a circular board would be more appropriate than a cylindrical one 22:25:34 Then make up your own variant of variant 22:26:01 it's not really a variant - it's just another way to represent the 'torus' aspect of the board 22:26:43 OK 22:27:57 Is my description of FurryScript better now? I think you have asked for some improvement and now I have done. 22:28:19 if I were to make a program with graphics it would probably display the board both as a cylinder and a disc 22:28:23 It is not only the description; if you have additional questions, or you wanted some additional commands, you can ask that too. 22:28:29 let me have a look 22:28:44 Arc_Koen: OK, it could be done like that, could be one way I guess. 22:29:49 what's a "domain specific" programming language? 22:30:38 does that mean it's been designed for one purpose mainly (with "domain" meaning a field like physics or biology)? 22:30:55 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domain-specific_language 22:31:01 Arc_Koen: Yes, like PHP 22:31:07 -!- augur_ has joined. 22:31:22 PHP is PHP HyperText Preprocessor or something like that. 22:31:25 thanks 22:31:30 so what's furryscript's domain? 22:32:02 No idea 22:32:05 SNOBOL was for text processing 22:32:20 A good example of a domain specific language is regular expressions. 22:32:22 FurryScript is even more domain-specific than PHP; the original reason it was written was actually specifically to interpret this: http://zzo38computer.org/furry/scripts/furrygenerator_7thsanc.txt (it is also where the name comes from) 22:32:41 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 22:33:26 Although the current version implements many commands which are not used in that file. 22:35:49 I have no idea what "generation" means 22:36:26 You also have to read the section about "templates" like it tell you to do 22:36:40 Probably I could explain it better, but am unsure how. 22:37:08 -!- shapr has left ("focus on code"). 22:37:26 -!- augur_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:37:55 But if you are still confused, you can ask more specific or see some of the external examples might explain a bit? 22:38:32 -!- Gregor has changed nick to RocketJSquirrel. 22:38:46 hmm yes I'm definitely still confused 22:39:20 the examples use PAR a lot and I have no idea what it does either 22:39:53 also what do the "( -- )" and "( ? -- ? )" means? 22:40:01 The purpose of PAR command is explained clearly in the text; it is used to read input. 22:40:14 Things like "( -- )" are stack effect notation (commonly used with Forth). 22:41:44 I added another paragraph of text to the "Generation" section. 22:42:15 If I want to implement esolangs in Clojure, I should find a good parsec-equivalent 22:43:02 hmm I understand a little better now 22:43:41 so it's mainly a functional language right? except with side effect on the stack 22:44:34 Arc_Koen: Somewhat, I guess 22:45:15 there's this whole continuation thing I'm not sure I understand 22:45:54 does it mean when a subroutine is called, it is provided with a copy of the stack (and of the program state)? 22:46:49 No; they all use the same stack. It is only provided with a copy of the stack and of the rest of the program state if you use the command to call with the current continuation. Also, continuations cannot be called backward. 22:47:10 You may see these files for more examples: http://zzo38computer.org/furry/scripts/ (I have added a link directly to this directory now) 22:47:14 oklofok?? 22:47:20 dammit man i need guidance 22:50:39 Do you understand the external examples? If anything in external example not understand, you can ask specific clarification I may add the comments if needed. 22:52:47 well the beer program looks very much like any usual stack based language 22:53:05 though I'm not sure when things are outputted 22:54:11 Things output when the program ends, any strings remaining on the stack are process any instructions they contain, and then send to output. 22:54:31 king_game and lifepath don't really look like programs at all - do they simply take some input to fill in some form? 22:55:05 " , eyes, and .> 22:55:13 ok, but that means the 99 is put on the stack first, then 98, etc., so 99 will be outputted last instead of first? 22:56:02 " , eyes, and .>" is a string which contains four instructions, "colordata", "skindata", etc, these subroutines are called and anything added to the stack since that point, one is selected at random and the instruction is replaced with that result. 22:56:15 ohhhhh 22:56:17 Arc_Koen: No, because the + at the beginning of any instruction tells it to use concatenation. 22:56:37 oh, of course 22:56:38 You can try the programs if you want; either install it on your own computer or use the HTML form. 22:57:35 so king_game basically generates a sentence with random values for skindata and stuff? 22:57:44 Yes. 22:59:50 -!- impomatic has left. 23:01:43 SU ( y x -- result ) Subtract x from y does this mean that the code "3 0 SU" will output -3 and not 3? 23:02:35 No. 23:02:55 Actually it won't output anything because it is not a string, but you can cast it to a string by +<> afterward 23:04:53 ok 23:05:36 so in ( z y x -- z' ) the top of the stack is z? 23:05:42 or x 23:06:03 The top of the stack is x same as in Forth 23:06:08 ok 23:07:27 Hopefully it is understandable now? 23:08:54 yes 23:09:26 still a bit confused about the whole good-bad-very bad thing 23:10:47 Perhaps look at some of the files that use those commands 23:20:43 Does it help? 23:22:47 -!- jiella has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 23:23:46 Arc_Koen, shachaf: I would say that "domain-specific language" is a much narrower thing than PHP 23:23:59 PHP is basically a general purpose programming language 23:24:02 kmc: I agree 23:24:09 zzo38: not really 23:24:13 a terrible one, and definitely with lots of web stuff baked in, but with lots of other things too 23:24:20 and i mean "web stuff" is a really broad domain 23:24:24 I think it's similar to ocaml's exceptions 23:24:40 to me a DSL is like, a makefile language or a 3D renderer scene description language or such 23:25:04 they might be turing complete but they aren't oriented towards the general tasks of programming 23:25:15 kmc: Yes, I agree with you. 23:25:32 one insight is that one should focus on building the domain specific bits and not on reinventing the programming language bits, incrementally and poorly 23:25:58 basically every 'config file' format eventually grows a bad implementation of variables, control flow, etc. 23:26:17 so the so-called "embedded domain-specific languages" are really just libraries in a host language, and you have the host language's features for these things 23:26:34 er I meant to ping shapr not shachaf 23:26:36 but shapr is not here 23:27:19 i worked somewhere where both frontend and backend were written in a mixture of Ruby on Rails and PHP 23:27:54 meaning, both the webapp and backend batch processing or sysadmin scripts 23:27:56 -!- augur has joined. 23:28:08 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:28:19 -!- augur has joined. 23:34:11 kmc: Your description of these thing of domain specific programming, is a bit like how FurryScript is like 23:34:43 -!- nys has quit (Quit: quit). 23:35:03 hi kmc 23:37:12 hichaf 23:37:15 how goes? 23:38:47 I need to find a place which is quiet and pleasant and open at odd hours. 23:39:00 And isn't$HOME. 23:39:10 how odd 23:39:21 The library works for everything except for the odd-hours bit. 23:39:37 -!- Por_gammer has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 23:47:05 ion: You gonna talk about applicative functors with XMunkki face-to-face, like a man? Huh? 23:48:12 Hehe 23:48:14 I know him from elsewhere. 23:49:26 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:50:04 i wonder when 4TB drives will be reasonably priced and not shitty 23:51:35 What counts as "reasonably"? 23:52:18 Looks like you can get one for $300 23:52:39 That's not so bad. 23:52:53 it's twice as much as a 3TB drive, though 23:53:45 3TB is$150? 23:53:54 ish 23:53:54 How times have changed, or something. 23:54:13 and 2TB is like \$110 23:54:29 I should get an external drive. 23:55:30 my storage array is 99.6% full 23:56:25 How many TBs is that 0.4%? 23:56:43 I never petabyte I didn't like. 23:58:09 0.032