←2012-10-16 2012-10-17 2012-10-18→ ↑2012 ↑all
00:18:48 <elliott> [[
00:18:48 <elliott> Absurd Ambition: Towards lifting differential/integral calculus into Haskell (self.haskell)
00:18:48 <elliott> submitted 1 day ago by enolan
00:18:48 <elliott> Okay, so first observe that FRP is a language embedded in Haskell for reasoning about systems evolving in time. Then make time first class. This enables time-bending programs, among other things. Remember that "regular" calculus is about rates of change and things depending on other things. Generalize FRP into differential/integral calculus on arbitrary data. (Remember we can find derivatives of data structures!)
00:18:49 <elliott> Please poke all the holes possible in this idea.
00:18:51 <elliott> Bitcoin donations graciously accepted here 1EDqgKBx3XuVnMughSzmTtFjqz5zey12Jv
00:18:53 <elliott> ]]
00:18:55 <elliott> i nominate this for worst /r/haskell post of any time
00:18:58 <elliott> any objections
00:19:14 <elliott> [[I'm aware of automatic differentiation, hence "Remember we can find derivatives of data structures!".]]
00:19:18 <elliott> looks like their replies are golden too
00:19:28 <elliott> "Automatic differentiation is not the same as differentiating data structures." "I don't know what that means yet, but thank you."
00:20:28 <elliott> shachaf: does this enolan guy talk in #haskell at all
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00:21:28 <shachaf> 17:21 <preflex> enolan was last seen on #haskell 1 day, 1 hour, 18 minutes and 3 seconds ago, saying: http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/11ixcl/absurd_ambition_towards_lifting/
00:21:39 <Phantom__Hoover> http://www.reddit.com/user/enolan
00:21:40 <Phantom__Hoover> wow
00:21:59 <Phantom__Hoover> a supercomputer that's also a nuclear reactor
00:22:06 <Phantom__Hoover> guy thinks big, i'll give him that
00:22:15 <elliott> "Architect of the Bitcoin singularity, man of super-Einsteinian ambition, nerd accelerator. ;)"
00:22:20 <elliott> guys this is an emergency
00:22:23 <Phantom__Hoover> http://paste.ubuntu.com/1276031/
00:22:24 <elliott> someone has actually described themselves with these words
00:22:30 <Phantom__Hoover> this guy is grade-a awful
00:22:36 <Phantom__Hoover> (the a is for awful)
00:22:45 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: what is that from
00:22:52 <Phantom__Hoover> fuck
00:22:53 <Phantom__Hoover> knows
00:23:02 <Phantom__Hoover> he posted a link to it on reddit, there is no context
00:23:11 <Phantom__Hoover> no comments, just downvotes
00:24:22 <Phantom__Hoover> http://www.reddit.com/r/askscience/comments/10bnuv/mirs_orbit_eventually_decayed_and_it_crashed_into/
00:24:24 <Phantom__Hoover> troll
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00:24:28 <Phantom__Hoover> for the love of god please
00:24:45 <shachaf> Phantom__Hoover: The question is: How can I donate bitcoins to this person?
00:24:50 <Phantom__Hoover> http://www.reddit.com/r/askscience/comments/z8mnv/why_are_tall_women_generally_considered_more/
00:25:39 <Phantom__Hoover> if we capture and dissect this man we may finally understand the true essence of human stupidity
00:26:14 <elliott> "Asking for money seems a bit gratuitous." "I think this is gratutiously awesome idea."
00:26:18 <elliott> best reddit comment ever
00:27:41 <elliott> "Anyone who posts like that, and hurts my brain, gets upvotes and possibly BTC."
00:27:57 <elliott> "Does that mean we need dependent Haskell to express this? I am totally willing to go there!"
00:27:58 <elliott> careful guys
00:28:04 <elliott> he's totally willing to go there!!
00:28:11 <Phantom__Hoover> he went there
00:28:15 <elliott> "Why is Edward getting all the imaginary internet points in this thread? Where are my points?!?!!?" he actually posted this
00:28:16 <Phantom__Hoover> no coming back from there
00:29:05 <Phantom__Hoover> "hey guys upvote upvote!!! it's ok because i've evolved beyond meaningless ideas of karma"
00:29:42 <Phantom__Hoover> http://www.reddit.com/r/math/comments/yy344/askmath_what_is_a_good_mathematical_basis_for_a/
00:29:47 <Phantom__Hoover> oh sweet jesus
00:30:10 <elliott> @tell cmccann I have no idea what this is -- http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/11ixcl/absurd_ambition_towards_lifting/ -- but it looks sort of like trolling, esp. given http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/11ixcl/absurd_ambition_towards_lifting/c6n0evb... the asking for money thing seems inappropriate but I don't know if you want to do anything about it
00:30:10 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
00:30:26 <elliott> my work is done
00:30:51 <Arc_Koen> that's a pretty depressive sentence.
00:30:58 <Phantom__Hoover> @tell cmccann make sure you check his post history if you feel like working up a good healthy hatred
00:30:58 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
00:31:25 <shachaf> Why are you @telling cmccann?
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00:31:48 <elliott> shachaf: I was @telling cmccann because reddit's report feature is useless and he's the most active /r/haskell mod and I talk with him fairly.
00:31:58 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover is @telling cmccann because he's trying to be annoying, which I'm sure is behaviour you're familiar with.
00:32:11 <shachaf> elliott: Fairly?
00:32:18 <elliott> *fairly often, whatever
00:32:22 <shachaf> What about copumpkin?
00:32:37 <shachaf> More like coolpumpkin, AM I RIGHT?
00:32:41 <copumpkin> ?
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00:32:47 <Arc_Koen> hey do you pronounce it often or often?
00:32:56 <elliott> copumpkin: shachaf is talking about /r/haskell mods :p
00:32:59 <elliott> re <elliott> @tell cmccann I have no idea what this is -- http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/11ixcl/absurd_ambition_towards_lifting/ -- but it looks sort of like trolling, esp. given http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/11ixcl/absurd_ambition_towards_lifting/c6n0evb... the asking for money thing seems inappropriate but I don't know if you want to do anything about it
00:33:02 <copumpkin> I pay attention to the modqueue whenever I can
00:33:08 <copumpkin> and have done my fair share of moderating recently
00:33:23 <shachaf> You should make elliott a moderator.
00:33:24 * elliott would have reported it if reddit's report feature included anything even vaguely useful like a text box to say wtf you're reporting for
00:33:30 <shachaf> It would be the end of /r/haskell as we know it.
00:43:49 <Sgeo> elliott, feel free to report then message mods?
00:46:02 <elliott> Sgeo: I figured just messaging a mod would be less work.
00:46:06 <elliott> Formal complaints are work 'n stuff.
00:46:18 <Sgeo> "A" mod?
00:46:22 <Sgeo> Why not the mods?
00:47:20 <Sgeo> You do know that that's a thing, right? You don't have to choose one particular mod, you can message /r/haskell
00:47:39 <Sgeo> </probably-reading-into-what-you-said-too-much>
00:47:46 <shachaf> /msg /r/haskell hi monqy
00:47:49 <elliott> telling "a" mod, n. <elliott> @tell cmccann I have no idea what this is -- http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/11ixcl/absurd_ambition_towards_lifting/ -- but it looks sort of like trolling, esp. given http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/11ixcl/absurd_ambition_towards_lifting/c6n0evb... the asking for money thing seems inappropriate but I don't know if you want to do anything about it
00:48:22 <shachaf> elliott wants to tell his buddy cmccann
00:48:30 <shachaf> Because he knows cmccann will give him special treatment.
00:49:08 <elliott> Yes, I control /r/haskell from behind closed doors.
00:49:17 <elliott> Sgeo has found out my terrible secret.
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00:49:34 <elliott> I will have to assassinate him and shachaf for their sins.
00:50:05 <Arc_Koen> ok well good night
00:50:15 <shachaf> copumpkin might assassinate you for your cosins!
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00:50:31 <shachaf> Does the co in cosine have anything to do with the category co?
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00:50:52 <elliott> copumpkin: Please spare me, my cousins didn't do anything wrong.
00:51:10 <copumpkin> elliott: your wish is granted, just this once
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00:51:47 <Jafet> My croissants are to die for.
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00:52:58 <Sgeo> "The cosine of an angle is the ratio of the length of the adjacent side to the length of the hypotenuse: so called because it is the sine of the complementary or co-angle."
00:53:01 <Sgeo> --Wikipedia
00:53:33 <Jafet> Don't stifle shachaf's new angle on category theory.
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00:53:52 <shachaf> Sgeo: Yes, I know.
00:54:04 * Sgeo chokes with laughter.
00:55:25 <Arc_Koen> ...so I type /quit followed with a funny reason, then I click the damn red button to close the application before it has time to reconnect me somehow, and you know what? instead of closing it pops a little window "are you sure you want to close the application? that would close all connections"
00:55:36 <Arc_Koen> "what connection"
00:55:51 <Arc_Koen> "Welcome to the esoteric programming channel!
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00:57:06 <elliott> shachaf: You killed Sgeo.
00:57:07 <elliott> That's murder.
00:57:08 <elliott> `quote murder
00:57:12 <HackEgo> 152) <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Don't be nasty; he's a lunatic, not a murderer. \ 304) <Vorpal> elliott, it was an artful robbery! <Vorpal> wait, murder \ 826) <monqy> you've constructed a situation in which i have no choice but to die in 10 days <monqy> well done <monqy> that's murder
00:57:40 <shachaf> when did monqy say that :'(
00:57:51 <Jafet> Less than ten days ago?
00:58:01 <shachaf> Presumably.
00:58:05 <elliott> monqy is a ghost.
00:58:10 <shachaf> `quote ghost
00:58:13 <HackEgo> 457) <itidus20> monqy: last night in my dreams I saw a false photo album of my childhood... looking ghostly \ 504) <elliott> I MIGHT BECOME GHOST
00:58:15 <shachaf> `qhuost
00:58:19 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: qhuost: not found
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01:18:28 <Sgeo> http://www.reddit.com/r/Clojure/comments/11kav3/the_consequences_of_not_using_paredit/
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01:36:33 <ion> pareddit
01:37:50 <ion> Their target market is the non-OCD customers.
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01:57:35 <Sgeo> What mathematical problems, besides Fermat's last theorem, could a solution to the halting problem be used to solve, and to which we do manage to know the answer?
01:58:27 <Slereah_> All of them really
01:58:45 <pikhq> Most any. It's fairly trivial to produce a brute-force check of most theorems by looping over all *possible* combinations, that will only halt/not-halt if it's true.
01:58:48 <Slereah_> Well, all problem that are recursively enumerable
01:59:00 <Sgeo> Which ones were difficult?
01:59:19 <pikhq> And so a halting oracle can basically give you an answer to anything you can write an algorithm, no matter how shitty, to check.
01:59:22 <Slereah_> It doesn't work if, say, you need to check over aleph_0 solutions
01:59:37 <Sgeo> Preferably a famous one. I have a reason for asking
02:00:05 <Slereah_> Poincaré conjecture?
02:00:05 <pikhq> Hmm. I wonder if P=NP could be expressed appropriately.
02:00:15 <Slereah_> The thing about it is
02:00:17 <elliott> Sgeo: anything of the form (exists (n:Z), p(n)) where p is a decidable proposition can be solved given a halting oracle
02:00:34 <Slereah_> You can solve most math because you can do a syntactic proof using logical axioms
02:00:35 <Jafet> print $ doesHalt $ filter (isProofOf P) $ listAllProofs
02:00:49 <elliott> proof: halts?({ for(Z i=0;;i++)if(p(i))break; })
02:00:51 <elliott> and what Jafet said yes
02:01:03 <Slereah_> The syntactic proof has to exist, though, but that's a pretty wide category of things
02:01:03 <Jafet> You probably want to run that in parallel with (isProofOf (not P))
02:01:15 <Jafet> And provableIn (modelOf P)
02:01:16 * Sgeo would have done Fermat's last theorem, but I don't see a simple way to loop over a b c and n such that it won't just increase one of them
02:01:37 <elliott> Sgeo: do you really not see a bijection Z^4 <-> Z
02:01:52 <elliott> i mean i can't think of a *good* one (fsvo good) off-hand
02:01:55 <elliott> but Q <-> Z hence pack etc.
02:02:08 <Sgeo> elliott, I know it exists, but I don't know how to do it easily
02:02:50 <Jafet> > [ (a, b, c, n-a) | n <- [0..], a <- [0..n], b <- [0..n-a], c <- [0..n-a-b] ]
02:02:51 <lambdabot> [(0,0,0,0),(0,0,0,1),(0,0,1,1),(0,1,0,1),(1,0,0,0),(0,0,0,2),(0,0,1,2),(0,0...
02:03:10 <Sgeo> hmm
02:03:24 <Sgeo> Cool
02:04:23 <Sgeo> Wait, why n-a?
02:04:31 <Sgeo> > [ (a, b, c, n) | n <- [0..], a <- [0..n], b <- [0..n-a], c <- [0..n-a-b] ]
02:04:32 <lambdabot> [(0,0,0,0),(0,0,0,1),(0,0,1,1),(0,1,0,1),(1,0,0,1),(0,0,0,2),(0,0,1,2),(0,0...
02:04:49 <elliott> Sgeo: because n <- [0..]
02:04:57 <elliott> need to reset it when you "roll over"
02:05:57 <Jafet> Actually I don't know. That could be wrong.
02:06:15 <zzo38> There are variuos ways to encode pairs into single numbers, such as bit interleave, or whatever
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02:49:27 <ion> http://i.imgur.com/BJmIg.jpg
02:52:48 <Robdgreat> but that left parenthesis has a match
02:56:24 <zzo38> Is there programs for random text generator other than Dada Engine, rmutt, and FurryScript?
02:58:06 <ion> autogen
02:58:21 <ion> Oh, wait. That wasn’t the one i was thinking of.
03:00:54 <kmc> what kind of random text?
03:01:10 <kmc> i wrote http://hackage.haskell.org/package/detrospector
03:01:19 <kmc> there are a billion programs like it
03:03:02 <ion> Ah, found it. polygen
03:03:30 <Sgeo> What sort of fun can I have with reified lexical environments?
03:03:40 <ion> http://pdos.csail.mit.edu/scigen/
03:03:51 <zzo38> I mean like the examples I have given, though. However these are OK too
03:14:08 <zzo38> kmc: It is good; I do not think any of the three programs I listed have any command for Markov chain, but maybe later I may add command in FurryScript for Markov (including high order).
03:14:25 <zzo38> Anyways, which programs have you used to write your own, which one don't, etc?
03:16:35 <zzo38> You said there are billion programs like it, how many in Haskell and what difference of feature?
03:19:40 <ion> kmc: Aww, you can’t use detrospector as a library?
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03:21:34 <zzo38> Do you intend to change it so that it does?
03:26:16 <kmc> yeah, people have asked for that
03:26:18 <kmc> i probably won't though
03:26:21 <kmc> because i am lazy
03:29:53 <zzo38> Sgeo: What is reified lexical environments?
03:31:12 <Sgeo> zzo38, a macro in Clojure, and probably Common Lisp, can help capture the lexical environment, as in, symbols bound by let and their values
03:33:56 <shachaf> Design goals include speed and full Unicode support. I welcome suggestions and patches regarding any aspect of this program.
03:34:19 <shachaf> kmc welcomes your suggestions into the trash bin.
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04:25:12 <shachaf> kmc: Man, I looked up some things on Google and found #haskell logs with you and ski and all that.
04:25:15 <shachaf> Those were the days.
04:25:19 <kmc> heh
04:25:20 <kmc> yeah
04:25:25 <kmc> i do miss #haskell
04:25:28 <shachaf> Talking about ∃ and things.
04:25:40 <kmc> i tried reasonably hard to get the good parts of it elsewhere
04:31:23 <shachaf> kmc: You know the way converting ∃ to ∀ is like currying?
04:32:36 <kmc> i could probably come up with it, but what do you have in mind?
04:39:48 <shachaf> kmc: (exists a. Foo a) = forall r. ((exists a. Foo a) -> r) -> r
04:40:21 <shachaf> forall a. Foo a is like (a:*) -> Foo a, exists a. Foo a is like ((a:*),Foo a)
04:41:02 <shachaf> So ((exists a. Foo a) -> r) is like (((a:*),Foo a) -> r), and if you curry that you get ((a:*) -> Foo a -> r), so it's the same as (forall a. Foo a -> r)
04:41:43 <shachaf> Something along those lines, anyway.
04:42:38 <zzo38> ais523 also says "!" in linear logic is like comonad, too? So, it is not only me. Is it like intuitionistic logic can be a comonad on linear logic, as classical logic can be a monad on intuitionistic logic? They mention how encoding intuitionistic logic in linear logic.
04:43:27 <zzo38> So what happen in linear logic putting multiple "!" and/or "?" together?
04:45:00 <Sgeo> Oh, zzo38
04:45:10 <Sgeo> An example of what I meant by reified lexical environment
04:45:23 <Sgeo> In Clojure, a hash-map is {key1 val1 key2 val2} etc
04:45:39 <Sgeo> I wrote a macro, get-lexical-env, that does this:
04:46:04 <Sgeo> (let [a 1 b 2] (get-lexical-env)) ; returns {'a 1 'b 2}
04:46:11 <Sgeo> Although it would print as {a 1 b 2}
04:46:43 <zzo38> O, that is what it means. OK
04:50:20 <Sgeo> I don't know if that's actually a correct description of the term "lexical environment", but it's what I meant.
04:52:25 <zzo38> OK
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05:27:16 <ion> PSY vs Ghostbusters - Gangnam Busters - Mashup by FAROFF http://youtu.be/82LCKBdjywQ
05:31:04 <kmc> ++
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06:40:33 <zzo38> I made up law of excluded middle continuations.
06:42:42 <monqy> are they any useful
06:43:06 <Jafet> You can't prove that they aren't useless, so they are useful.
06:43:44 <zzo38> callCC (return . Right . (<=< return . Left)) :: ContT r m (Either a (a -> ContT r m b)) it is similar to law of excluded middle, I guess.
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07:15:04 <zzo38> I have added some more commands in FurryScript now, including AGA IMC MC SHF
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09:20:58 <Arc_Koen> hello
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09:28:17 <ais523> wb elliott
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10:59:45 <nortti> this is fucking scary: http://superchief.tv/leaked-north-korean-documentary-exposes-western-propaganda-and-its-scary-how-true-it-is/
11:00:10 <ion> Someone forgot to tell Gnesa that 0) autotune exists; 1) clown makeup looks even more atrocious in close-up. http://youtu.be/CF2o5RDkq9A
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11:30:40 <ion> nortti: It’s funny when it’s true.
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12:23:42 <mroman> I know The Rock's real name!
12:32:52 <fizzie> mroman: But can you find Britain on a map?!
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12:36:24 <Jafet> Does he have a GPS phone?
12:38:57 <fizzie> Does a GPS phone transmit voice through GPS satellites?
12:39:51 <Jafet> No, silly, it uses the GPS satellites to calculate your location and transmits it to spy satellites.
12:41:56 <ion> [image of Keanu Reeves] What if GPS satellites are spy satellites?
12:44:15 <fizzie> Jafet: I hear all phones are espionage devices that listen to you even when turned off, and transmit detailed location data too.
12:44:23 <fizzie> I heard this from that Stallman guy.
12:44:25 <Arc_Koen> ok hopefully my emmental interpreter should be working buuuuuuut I have nothing to test it on
12:44:32 <fizzie> (Disclaimer: slightly exaggerated, maybe.)
12:45:16 <fizzie> Actual quote, for the record: "I refuse to have a cell phone because they are tracking and surveillance devices. They all enable the phone system to record where the user goes, and many (perhaps all) can be remotely converted into listening devices." http://stallman.org/rms-lifestyle.html
12:45:20 <Jafet> Yay, another cheesy language
12:45:36 <nortti> what language?
12:45:37 <Jafet> fizzie: actually, that's probably true
12:45:41 <fizzie> Arc_Koen: You need to eat, I mean, write some emmental.
12:45:55 <Arc_Koen> yes I do need to eat
12:47:10 <Arc_Koen> (for the record if I ever have to take part in a conspiracy, I promise I won't take my phone with me)
12:47:11 <ais523> fizzie: his statement is, of course, technically correct
12:47:30 <ais523> I refuse to have a cellphone for reasons which are only very vaguely related (specifically, I don't like people being able to contact me at arbitrary times)
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12:49:34 <ion> fizzie: http://www.ted.com/talks/malte_spitz_your_phone_company_is_watching.html
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12:51:06 <Jafet> Most people probably want their phone to be able to remember where they went and what they did, anyway.
12:51:27 <ion> How about their phone company?
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12:51:40 <Jafet> Most people are pretty short-sighted.
12:54:42 <ais523_> you mean metaphorically, right?
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12:54:52 <ais523> literally, I think more than half of people can focus to infinity
12:55:10 <ais523> and focusing beyond infinity is not a massively useful operation (despite being technically possible, it just leaves /everything/ out of focus)
12:55:12 <Slereah_> But you can only focus to infinity if the universe is infinite :o
12:55:34 <fizzie> The location-tracking is kind of obvious; I'm a bit more sceptical on any claims that phone companies / law enforcement / the gummint would generally turn phones into listening devices. (Admittedly RMS only says "can".)
12:55:40 <Jafet> The universe can be finite and have unbounded light lines
12:55:55 <ais523> Slereah_: focusing to infinity means assuming that incoming light rays are parallel to each other
12:56:08 <Slereah_> Yes, but how are you going to get that!
12:56:12 <ais523> focusing beyond infinity is only useful if you have a lens that's making light rays more convergent and want to cancel out its effects
12:56:21 <Slereah_> Light tends to be emitted isotropically
12:57:47 <ais523> in practice, focusing to infinity is visually indistinguishable from focusing to, say, 100m
12:58:53 <Slereah_> Mostly because your eye can't make the difference if the light rays land a nanometer apart~
12:59:55 <fizzie> I don't quite see how the actual incoming light would matter when discussing how your optics can or cannot focus.
13:01:32 <Slereah_> Do you want me to make irrelevant complaints about something else, perhaps
13:02:20 <Arc_Koen> hey guys I'm getting the weirdest errors
13:02:53 <Arc_Koen> for instance if I try to pop an element from a queue and push it on a stack, when the queue is empty, ocaml raises exception Stack.Empty
13:07:26 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/DYDR -- not for me.
13:08:06 <Arc_Koen> yes I think it is reasonable to assume I'm the one doing something wrong, not ocaml
13:08:13 <fizzie> You just never know.
13:10:13 <Arc_Koen> ok I just fixed a minor bug that was apparently completely unrelated and now it seems to be raising the proper exceptions
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13:17:03 <ion> https://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9232477/Pacemaker_hack_can_deliver_deadly_830_volt_jolt The following people were surprised by the security problem:
13:19:45 <Jafet> Like wardriving but more fun
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13:22:10 <Jafet> Hm, same person behind http://youtu.be/bidDXuM4-2E
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13:27:49 <ion> libseccomp looks really nice. http://s3hh.wordpress.com/2012/07/24/playing-with-seccomp/
13:31:13 <Jafet> This is like the path that goes over mountains and through five days of blinding hail to get capabilities
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13:42:17 <AnotherTest> Hello
13:42:27 <Phantom_Hoover> heroux,
13:43:15 <AnotherTest> http://esolangs.org/wiki/WASD - oh god
13:43:28 <AnotherTest> "inspired by brainfuck"
13:46:06 <Slereah_> Inspired by brainfuck is a code for brainfuck cypher
13:46:54 <AnotherTest> so for what is "and several other esolangs" code?
13:47:08 <Slereah_> "with elements from"
13:47:28 <AnotherTest> also which ones? (except for all other brainfuck equivalents)
13:48:04 <Slereah_> But then again, I once made an esolang based on unlambda because I didn't like lazy evaluation
13:48:13 <AnotherTest> In this regard, I would like to suggest that brainfuck equivalents will no longer be listed in the manually maintained language list
13:48:17 <Slereah_> Although I tried mixing it up by adding lambda calculus
13:48:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm.
13:48:54 <elliott> Slereah_: did you ever figure monads out
13:48:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Having rewritten the argument I'm not sure that he specified the same loop semantics as Brainfuck.
13:49:03 <Phantom_Hoover> s/argument/article/
13:49:04 <AnotherTest> Brainfuck equivalents are EQUIVALENT to brainfuck, thus they shouldn't be considered separated pages
13:49:11 <Slereah_> elliott : Hell, I didn't even look up esolangs in months
13:49:45 <AnotherTest> Phantom_Hoover:"If pointer is set to 0 loop starts"
13:50:13 <AnotherTest> Phantom_Hoover: he probably wanted to say "If the value at the pointer is set to 0"
13:52:32 <AnotherTest> Alright his input is different
13:53:04 <AnotherTest> He reads integers rather than characters
13:54:54 <AnotherTest> and you can't nest loops because his implementation sucks
13:57:09 <AnotherTest> " in order to create a language that would be quick to program"
13:57:18 <AnotherTest> Yeah, definitely
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13:58:21 <AnotherTest> This is a shame for the wiki
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13:59:32 <elliott> there is not really limited space
13:59:41 <elliott> are http://esolangs.org/wiki/Snack and http://esolangs.org/wiki/Esme better because they're not bf derivatives
13:59:58 <fizzie> AnotherTest: Did you check the WASD interpreter? It's... kinda curious, when it comes to loops. Can't say I've ever seen that particular approach yet.
14:00:17 <AnotherTest> elliott: At least they are not listed on the language list!
14:00:38 <AnotherTest> fizzie: yes, I have (unfortunately) seen it
14:01:42 <elliott> AnotherTest: you are wrong
14:01:49 <elliott> snack is listed on the languag elist
14:01:49 <AnotherTest> elliott: well snack is
14:01:51 <elliott> *language list
14:01:56 <AnotherTest> esme is not
14:02:10 <AnotherTest> snack shouldn't be listed either
14:02:17 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/FURscript another bad language unrelated to brainfuck
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14:02:29 <elliott> and that should be on the language list, not the joke language list; it clearly has semantics, just stupid ones
14:03:28 <AnotherTest> I must agree
14:03:53 <AnotherTest> but I must also say that I never said that only brainfuck equivalents were often bad
14:04:04 <AnotherTest> There are lots of other bad languages
14:04:53 <elliott> well the language list should not be an arbiter for taste... the featured language thing was meant to highlight some of the better esolangs but it hasn't been updated in ages because apparently I and all the other admins are lazy as sin
14:05:05 <elliott> arguably there should be a separate list for brainfuck derivatives just because there are so many of them, but idk
14:05:52 <AnotherTest> I just noticed the case of "WASD", the creator cannot even implement loops. You can as well ask a 5 year old to think of a nice way to write the brainfuck operators.
14:06:27 <AnotherTest> elliott: I'm talking about equivalents here, not deriatives, may that be clear (there are many very nice deriatives)
14:06:40 <AnotherTest> s/deriatives/derivatives
14:07:04 <elliott> didn't you just find out its semantics are different :p
14:07:09 <elliott> I guess the interpreter might be equivalent though
14:07:55 <AnotherTest> But where not intended to be different; I'm pretty sure the author just didn't understand brainfuck or couldn't make a proper implementation
14:10:23 <AnotherTest> If a new visitors clicks the language list and chooses a random language at this moment, chances are getting higher (because of such languages) it's going to be a worthless language
14:11:04 <elliott> suspect people are more likely to click random page
14:11:28 <elliott> anyawy a list of good esolangs would certainly have value, though it's of course completely subjective... the wiki has traditionally been open to every language no matter how crappy though
14:11:50 <Phantom__Hoover> suggestion: have a bf substitutions page
14:11:54 <elliott> and, unfortunately, there are an awful lot of crap esolangs... far outweighing the good ones
14:11:55 <elliott> but that's just how it is
14:12:08 <fizzie> AnotherTest: Be fair, it implements *a* loop.
14:12:09 <Phantom__Hoover> it's a giant table of the name of the language, the command substitutions, and author name etc
14:12:34 <fizzie> There's quite a few interpreters that don't get nested loops. (Although this was the first one that duplicated essentially the whole interpreter for the insides of the loop.)
14:13:05 <Phantom__Hoover> delete all pages for substitutions except the one or two with historical interest (by which i mean ook)
14:13:08 <fizzie> First one I've seen, I mean.
14:13:22 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: you could have at least read the interpreter before making an incorrect edit
14:13:22 <AnotherTest> elliott: That people can create crappy pages: OK if you really want it like that; but that they are all in the same language list: definitely not OK.
14:13:55 <boily> there should be a QA process -- Quintopia Approval :p
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14:14:10 <boily> (at least one of my langs is already certified)
14:14:17 <elliott> AnotherTest: well feel free to come up with some objective criteria for whether an esolang should be on the list or not... the closest thing I can think of is some kind of vote, which would be terribly un-wiki and slow things down immensely and generally result in stagnation IMO
14:14:35 <AnotherTest> elliott: so I will make a brainfuck interpreter were you input real numbers, and it will be an entirely new concept?
14:14:40 <elliott> besides, it would be dishonest to portray the esolangs community as mostly full of quality languages... it is a mixed bag and that's how it's always been
14:15:17 <elliott> AnotherTest: I don't claim to make any judgement of whether it's entirely new or not... it would probably be uninteresting and I wouldn't like it, although real numbers are a vaguely interesting premise for a BF derivative (depending on what +-[] do)
14:15:52 <AnotherTest> elliott: I'm pretty sure the author of WASD didn't even realize q was different.
14:15:56 <elliott> still, I don't see how you can just say "the language list shouldn't list unoriginal languages" without realising how impractical that is
14:15:58 <FreeFull> Psh
14:16:03 <FreeFull> Make it complex numbers
14:16:42 <Phantom__Hoover> hmm, wasd doesn't actually allow for nested loops
14:17:11 <AnotherTest> elliott: I realize that, but it might still be possible to filter out a number of cases; such as were one language can be converted to another by simply replacing characters
14:17:36 <Phantom__Hoover> AnotherTest, that only ever happens with brainfuck though.
14:18:07 <AnotherTest> well at least that would get rid of the dozens of brainfuck equivalents
14:18:45 <Phantom__Hoover> i still prefer my idea
14:18:47 <elliott> the closest thing I can see as being viable is to have a section on the joke language list for languages that are very very close (intentionally so) to existing esolangs
14:19:01 <elliott> if you think that'll make the average language on the main list good though you're out of your mind :)
14:19:36 <hagb4rd> what do we need to form a language? syntax, sematics..and..
14:19:55 <AnotherTest> What about something like a good language list? I know it's unpractical to realize, but it doesn't have to be a large list either.
14:20:07 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:Featured_languages
14:20:21 <elliott> you need to define rules for it or people will just put their own languages on and you'll have dumb revert wars over matters of opinion of whether a language is good or not
14:20:34 <AnotherTest> elliott: I think there are more than 2 good languages
14:20:41 <elliott> main problem is almost all ideas are either too much overhead/work (and hence they stagnate), or open to that kind of nonsense
14:20:47 <elliott> featured language process has the former
14:21:03 <elliott> feel free to put a better proposal for a collection of recommended languages on the community portal, it would be welcomed
14:21:38 <elliott> speaking of bad languages, seems like good old !!!Batch got an update
14:21:48 <elliott> what would we do without shubshub
14:24:00 <AnotherTest> Personally I think that the languages on the "good language list" should be implemented. I realize that some very good languages have not yet been implemented, although visitors should be able to try out these "good languages".
14:25:01 <hagb4rd> syntactics, semantics and pragmatics.. finally got it
14:25:13 <Phantom__Hoover> shut up hagb4rd
14:25:56 <AnotherTest> and it should have a decent specification (either external or on the wiki); this means, for example, that you can't capitalize every word(Like With !!!Batch Really)
14:28:04 <AnotherTest> The language may also not be a semantic equivalent of another language
14:29:49 <FreeFull> How much of a problem are these unoriginal languages right now?
14:30:22 <AnotherTest> As long as there is a way to filter the good languages from the bad languages they are not a problem
14:30:35 <AnotherTest> but there is currently not a good way to do it
14:30:57 <AnotherTest> so I think they're a pretty big problem when you want to find nice languages
14:32:13 <Arc_Koen> wow Phantom__Hoover
14:32:21 <Arc_Koen> did you edit WASD wiki page?
14:32:24 <AnotherTest> Oh, another requirement should be that the language is not a vague idea, but rather is actually well defined etc.
14:32:34 <Arc_Koen> did you actually CONTRIBUTE to that brainfuck-derivative??
14:33:01 <elliott> i don't quite understand why everyone is reacting so strongly here, you guys realise trivial brainfuck ciphers are nothing new right :P
14:33:21 <FreeFull> Brainfuck is the most trivial cipher of brainfuck
14:34:07 <Arc_Koen> elliott: something about a straw and a camel, I reckon
14:35:40 <elliott> your backs should have broken years ago
14:36:11 <Arc_Koen> btw I think Ook! was an awesome idea
14:36:18 <Phantom__Hoover> it wasn't
14:36:36 <Phantom__Hoover> it was a funny joke at the time for about 20 minutes
14:36:48 <Arc_Koen> it's just the 36 zillion that came after that were bad ideas
14:38:13 <elliott> <AnotherTest> and it should have a decent specification (either external or on the wiki); this means, for example, that you can't capitalize every word(Like With !!!Batch Really)
14:38:20 <elliott> these sound basically like the rough featured language criteria i wrote ages ago
14:39:13 <AnotherTest> elliott: I should probably read those, it might be a good source of inspiration
14:39:22 <Arc_Koen> and only two languages were good enough??
14:39:54 <elliott> Arc_Koen: how about read the process before making assumptions
14:40:03 <Arc_Koen> that was a joke
14:40:12 <elliott> it relied on admins do sift through them every now and then and that didn't happen because it means main page blurbs have to be written for the language
14:40:21 <elliott> and that's difficult and annoying and nobody ever wants to do it :p
14:40:24 <elliott> so it's laid dormant for months
14:42:58 <Arc_Koen> "If pointer is set to 0 loop starts" uh, does that mean "if the pointer points to the first cell"?
14:43:30 <FreeFull> Zeroth cell
14:43:37 <FreeFull> Assuming there is one
14:46:50 <Arc_Koen> uh, his interpreter seems to do awful stuff
14:50:22 <AnotherTest> doesn't seem to
14:50:24 <AnotherTest> it does
14:50:28 <Arc_Koen> in particular I think the instruction pointer will never wander beyond the first end loop
14:50:47 <AnotherTest> elliott: I have a list of 7 requirement
14:50:51 <AnotherTest> +s
14:51:28 <AnotherTest> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang_talk:Community_portal#List_of_.22good.22_languages
14:51:49 <Arc_Koen> your mission, if you accept it, is to find those 7 requirements, and destroy them using enchanted swords and other basilisk fangs.
14:52:09 <AnotherTest> "This message will self destruct in 60 seconds."
14:52:18 <elliott> "semantically equivalent" rules out TC languages
14:52:37 <AnotherTest> let me modify that
14:52:46 <AnotherTest> I wasn't clear
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14:53:57 <Arc_Koen> hey seriously if your secret agents require a whole minute to read their assignment I doubt they will be a match against the great evil we're all fighting
14:54:02 <AnotherTest> "The language may not be convertible to another language by a series of simple substitutions."
14:54:31 <AnotherTest> elliott: Is that better?
14:54:38 <elliott> better, certainly
14:54:42 <Arc_Koen> not good enough!
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14:54:53 <Arc_Koen> see http://esolangs.org/wiki/Maze
14:54:59 <Arc_Koen> it can be converted to brainfuck easily
14:55:09 <Arc_Koen> uh, wait, the opposite
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14:55:33 <Arc_Koen> in fact, you're basically ruling out all turing tarpits
14:55:56 <AnotherTest> You can't convert Maze by simple substitutions
14:56:09 <AnotherTest> You have to preform additional semantic checking
14:56:12 <Arc_Koen> no, I mean, you can convert brainfuck into Maze by simple substitutions
14:56:46 <AnotherTest> oh yes
14:56:47 <AnotherTest> hm
14:57:56 <Arc_Koen> well Maze is much more recent that brainfuck but that's not the point, for instance brainfuck can be converted into C easily
14:58:24 <AnotherTest> Yeah
14:58:46 <AnotherTest> By replacing one lexeme with another lexeme from the other language?
14:59:06 <AnotherTest> (note: by just one lexeme)
14:59:18 <oklofok> i have a great idea
14:59:28 <oklofok> how about you take brainfuck but the cells have like complex values
14:59:37 <Arc_Koen> ouh, great idea
15:00:04 <Arc_Koen> in fact I had a hard time not saying the exact same thing a few minutes ago
15:00:05 <AnotherTest> that's ruled out by another rule :)
15:00:45 <Arc_Koen> AnotherTest: the "just one lexem" thing allows languages like "unary brainfuck" in
15:01:00 <Arc_Koen> I mean, what "one lexeme" is is easily abusable
15:01:05 <oklofok> darn, clue doesn't fit the specification
15:01:17 <oklofok> because it's page is a joke.
15:01:30 <Phantom__Hoover> oklofok, you mean there are two versions of + and -
15:01:31 <AnotherTest> Arc_Koen: unary brainfuck doesn't meet all the other requirements
15:01:39 <Phantom__Hoover> which are orthogonal to each other
15:01:59 <oklofok> Phantom__Hoover: yeah gaussian integers because all the other complex numbers are just silly
15:02:14 <Arc_Koen> true - but then can you think of one language that is ruled out by 4 but not by 5?
15:02:14 <Phantom__Hoover> oh yes! i needed your guidance
15:02:37 <Phantom__Hoover> i hung out with that elliott one and he peer pressured me with constructivism
15:02:58 <Phantom__Hoover> now i have nagging doubts whenever i do proofs by contradiction
15:03:07 <oklofok> constructivism? lol try finitism. in fact fuck finitism, i'm a singletonist.
15:03:19 <AnotherTest> Arc_Koen: No, but 4 is easier to determine objectively.
15:03:28 <Phantom__Hoover> what is 2 anyway
15:03:30 <Phantom__Hoover> what is 1
15:03:32 <Phantom__Hoover> what are numbers
15:04:29 <Arc_Koen> well a cell in brainfuck is just a simple 256-state automaton
15:05:01 <oklofok> lol nihilism is just silly, i'm a singletonist to the bone. as we singletonists say, cogito ergo sum, but that's it.
15:05:08 <Arc_Koen> AnotherTest: how about "is not a close derivative of another language"
15:05:23 <oklofok> also known as solipsism then i guess.
15:05:49 <AnotherTest> Arc_Koen: you can add it an 8th rule
15:06:51 <hagb4rd> how bout group by affinities in the instruction set or sth
15:06:58 <oklofok> is that not essentially 4?
15:07:02 <Arc_Koen> no I intend to strongly argue that it is redundant with 4 and 5 and at least one of the three should not be included
15:07:08 <oklofok> oh actually not
15:07:26 <oklofok> but perhaps what Arc_Koen said
15:07:34 <Arc_Koen> or maybe we should make a list of requirements for a requirement to be featured in the requirement list
15:09:22 <Arc_Koen> "semantically equivalent" was interesting - that'd probably leave us with a list of computational models, plus deadfish
15:09:53 <Arc_Koen> oh and also a few like banana scheme and twoducks
15:11:47 <tswett> oklofok: singletonism, eh? As in forall x y, x = y?
15:12:53 <tswett> I have a tendency to prefer axiom systems capable of expressing themselves.
15:12:56 <oklofok> totally
15:13:52 <tswett> Let x = x. Is x an element of x?
15:13:53 <hagb4rd> tswett: you're out to complete gödels incompleteness theorem?
15:14:02 <hagb4rd> or at it least to extend it
15:14:20 <tswett> hagb4rd: no, I'm not sure what you're getting at.
15:14:25 <Arc_Koen> the heck does "Let x = x." mean
15:14:35 <tswett> Arc_Koen: it means "let x be a value such that x = x".
15:14:48 <Phantom__Hoover> what's a value
15:14:52 <Phantom__Hoover> also shut up hagb4rd
15:15:06 <hagb4rd> yep
15:15:06 <Arc_Koen> tswett: the heck is x
15:15:18 <tswett> Arc_Koen: a value such that x = x.
15:15:19 <tswett> ^_^
15:15:40 <Arc_Koen> tswett: the heck is x
15:15:52 <Arc_Koen> I'M STUCK PLEASE HELP ME
15:16:07 <tswett> A value equal to itself?
15:16:14 <Arc_Koen> oh, ok
15:16:20 <hagb4rd> lol
15:16:26 <tswett> Alternatively, let me restate.
15:16:32 <tswett> True or false: For all x, x is an element of x.
15:16:49 <Arc_Koen> see that would have been much more simple to answer with nihilism
15:17:31 <Arc_Koen> (but honestly who needs a set theory when there is only one element?)
15:17:32 <tswett> "There's no such thing"?
15:17:55 <Arc_Koen> well all statement starting with "for all" would be true
15:18:31 <hagb4rd> at least better then false
15:18:38 <tswett> Hm. So, here's a simple set theory. I'll call it Zero.
15:18:46 <hagb4rd> the would be fatalism i guess
15:18:48 <tswett> The axioms of Zero: "For all x, x != x."
15:19:05 <kmc> i came up with a complete consistent axiomatization of number theory
15:19:24 <tswett> kmc: neat! Does it prove its own consistency?
15:19:32 <kmc> sure
15:19:39 <kmc> i just take every true statement of number theory as an axiom
15:19:41 <kmc> it's so easy!
15:19:54 <tswett> Hm. I like it.
15:20:11 <Phantom__Hoover> kmc, what if it's inconsistent
15:20:23 <tswett> Hm, let me ponder that system.
15:20:49 <kmc> this is why goedel's incompleteness theorem says there is no complete, consistent, *recursively enumerable* axiomitization of number theory
15:20:55 <kmc> but people forget about the third condition
15:21:02 <elliott> To be fair, kmc, you're not recursively enumerable.
15:21:04 <elliott> Burn?
15:21:16 <kmc> nah i'm a finite object
15:21:20 <tswett> What counts as a "statement of number theory"? Is it simply a statement quantified over the natural numbers whose predicates are addition and blah blah blah?
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15:21:39 <kmc> "yo momma so fat she's a strongly inaccessible cardinal"
15:22:21 * hagb4rd pulls on his kmc shirt
15:22:51 <ion> It puts the lotion on its skin?
15:23:33 <hagb4rd> no, it lights on in the dark
15:24:33 <tswett> Yo mama so fat, the set {{x} where x ∈ yo mama} has a cardinality strictly smaller than that of yo mama.
15:24:49 <hagb4rd> also it levels up charisma by 1 if worn in set with the mkc boots
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15:25:45 <Arc_Koen> uh, is that possible?
15:26:23 <Arc_Koen> please don't say "fsvo 'strictly smaller'"
15:30:21 <Arc_Koen> AnotherTest: what if the complex numbers in my brainfuck derivative are encoded as polynomials to which they are roots?
15:30:49 <Arc_Koen> would that be a unique enough concept?
15:31:21 <Phantom__Hoover> how are you manipulating them then
15:31:46 <Arc_Koen> by factoring them
15:31:59 <Arc_Koen> (yeah hum currently the implementation is unavailable)
15:32:40 <Phantom__Hoover> maybe with coefficients?
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16:32:54 <tswett> Arc_Koen: it's not possible in ZFC, since there's a bijection { (x, {x}) where x ∈ yo mama}.
16:33:29 <Arc_Koen> what's zfc? (and why am I asking?)
16:33:49 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zermelo%E2%80%93Fraenkel_set_theory
16:37:35 <Arc_Koen> is ur mama a urelement?
16:37:59 <Slereah_> Zermelo Fried Chicken
16:38:21 <fizzie> Does someone join a mostly empty Dropbox shared folder? I'll get this 250 MB "Get Started" reward if I get a fifth step done in this stupid thing. (Made stupider by the fact that I'm not even going to use the deebee for anything.)
16:38:25 <fizzie> I can drop an in-Finnish religious proselytization note I found on the ground in Järvenpää into the folder to sweeten the deal.
16:38:34 <fizzie> Well, a photo of one, anyway.
16:40:15 <elliott> fizzie: what is deebe
16:40:16 <elliott> e
16:41:06 <fizzie> Dropbox.
16:43:53 <elliott> fizzie: i'll do it if you give me the note irl
16:43:54 <elliott> post it
16:44:32 <fizzie> I didn't actually pick it up. I thought then I'd be depriving someone else of God and whatnot.
16:44:37 <fizzie> The next one to walk that way, I mean.
16:44:58 <Arc_Koen> so I just put a slice of bread in a frying pan, with grated cheese on top of the bread, and an egg on top of the grated chease
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17:03:28 <Arc_Koen> as I feared, the slice of bread got completely burnt before the egg was properly baked
17:04:07 <Arc_Koen> next time I'll try putting the egg under the toast, or something
17:05:28 <fizzie> You can also put it beside the toast.
17:06:06 <Arc_Koen> or maybe make it an egg sandwich
17:06:19 <Arc_Koen> and when the egg is half-baked, I flip it
17:07:02 <Arc_Koen> I wonder if that's how they do paninis
17:08:53 <fizzie> Don't those usually get made in those grill-on-both-side machines?
17:09:05 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Professional_panini_machine.JPG you know, that kind of things.
17:10:33 <fizzie> Also thanks a whole lot, now I'm terribly hungry.
17:14:51 <Slereah_> Panini was also the first esolanger :V
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18:16:21 <Arc_Koen> fizzie: yes during the whole thing I was wondering if there was anything I could use to heat the egg from above
18:21:26 <Phantom__Hoover> uh
18:21:33 <Phantom__Hoover> are you experimenting in advanced egg-cooking
18:21:50 <fizzie> It was more about sandwich-making.
18:28:36 <Arc_Koen> anyway see you later guys
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19:37:01 <mroman> fizzie: Of course I can find Britain on a map.
19:37:23 <mroman> If the map has names on it then I also can locate Afghanistan.
19:38:40 <mroman> It's a pretty big country.
20:04:27 <olsner> if it's a map of afghanistan I can probably locate it
20:13:13 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined.
20:24:20 <mroman> If it's a map of great britain I can locate it perfectly.
20:24:48 <elliott> I'm quite good at locating Afghanistan on maps of Great Britain too
20:24:56 <olsner> neither am I
20:25:54 <mroman> I just have to abuse a little trick from classic logic.
20:26:06 <Phantom__Hoover> 12:47:30: <ais523> I refuse to have a cellphone for reasons which are only very vaguely related (specifically, I don't like people being able to contact me at arbitrary times)
20:26:12 <Phantom__Hoover> oh my god someone else who hates phones
20:26:33 <Phantom__Hoover> who the fuck thought it was a good idea to invent a device that allows people to blindly pester you whenever they like
20:26:47 <mroman> Well
20:26:53 <olsner> Bell
20:26:57 <mroman> according to the north korean propanda movie
20:27:05 <mroman> an iPhone changes everything!
20:27:28 <mroman> Nice typo.
20:27:35 <mroman> I don't think they like pandas.
20:27:56 <olsner> if they don't like pandas why would they make propanda movies?
20:28:06 <mroman> To please china?
20:28:10 <mroman> (obviously)
20:28:19 <olsner> ah, right
20:29:51 <Phantom__Hoover> i hate pandas
20:31:28 <mroman> Blasphemie.
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21:42:45 <elliott> shachaf: What type f has f (a,b) = Either a b?
21:43:49 <shachaf> elliott: Is there such a type?
21:44:22 <elliott> Is there?
21:44:28 <elliott> What type f has f (Either a b) = (a,b)?
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21:45:25 <shachaf> Why would these types exist?
21:45:37 <elliott> Why would anything exist?
21:46:32 <shachaf> elliott: woah, dude
21:46:41 <Phantom__Hoover> we already had this conversation today dammit
21:46:49 <shachaf> But, really, why does that make sense?
21:46:49 <olsner> shachaf: profound, isn't it?
21:46:57 <shachaf> elliott: "I could do this with recursion, but since I'm doing this in Haskell, I'd like to understand the monads. The State Monad is probably the best for this job, I suppose?"
21:47:01 <elliott> shachaf: I don't know. Do you make sense?
21:47:07 <shachaf> elliott: Sometimes I do.
21:47:22 <elliott> shachaf: Anyway if you defined f (Either a b) = (a, b) as a type family what would you call it?
21:47:24 <elliott> And what does it mean?
21:47:37 <shachaf> elliott: Oh, a type family.
21:47:40 <shachaf> That's not at ype.
21:48:09 <olsner> if it's not at ype, where is it?
21:48:25 <shachaf> olsner: oerjan would never say that.
21:48:31 <shachaf> That's why you should be more like oerjan.
21:49:05 <elliott> shachaf: I didn't mean a type family before.
21:49:22 <shachaf> So F (Either a b) = (a,b)
21:49:31 <shachaf> Do you know anything else about F?
21:50:20 <olsner> shachaf: oerjan would never make fun of at ypo?
21:50:24 <elliott> shachaf: Well, ideally F (forall r. (a -> r) -> (b -> r) -> r) would be isomorphic to (a, b).
21:50:52 <shachaf> @context elliott
21:50:53 <lambdabot> Unknown command, try @list
21:51:33 <elliott> I'm just wondering.
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22:02:16 <zzo38> Then how can F be if it is possible to make that working?
22:02:28 <elliott> I have no idea, honestly.
22:02:44 <shachaf> elliott: What do you want it for?
22:03:35 <shachaf> elliott: Is there a "log" function such that f (a,b) = Either (f a) (f b)?
22:03:36 <zzo38> Is it possible, even? If not with intuitionistic logic, is it possible with linear logic, or other logical systems? Would F do anything else other than just this?
22:03:44 <elliott> shachaf: I don't want it for anything.
22:03:54 <elliott> I don't know if there's such a log. But that sounds cute, so let's go with: yes.
22:04:07 <elliott> shachaf: Const Void satisfies log.
22:04:14 <shachaf> elliott: I know.
22:05:24 <shachaf> elliott: What's the other thing you need to satisfy log?
22:05:39 <shachaf> Something like log 1 = 0?
22:06:19 <elliott> Presumably.
22:06:33 <zzo38> I have tried before to make logarithm of types but I don't think it can be done?
22:06:36 <elliott> You have b^log_b(a) = a. So Log a -> b should be iso to a. Problem: what's b?
22:06:51 <elliott> I don't think that even makes sense.
22:06:57 <elliott> b has to be constant; you can't extract any info out of the result.
22:07:00 <elliott> It looks like callcc.
22:07:15 <elliott> shachaf: Anyway Const Void satisfies log 1 = 0 too.
22:07:52 <elliott> shachaf: Log (a -> b) ~ (a, Log b).
22:07:53 <zzo38> I don't think you can make a base of natural logarithms as a type, though
22:08:00 <shachaf> 15:07 <byorgey> shachaf: once upon a time I had this idea that log corresponded to "paths" in data structures
22:08:03 <elliott> Does Const Void satisfy that? I guess yes.
22:08:03 <shachaf> 15:07 <byorgey> shachaf: e.g. a path to a value in an (a,b) structure is either a path to an a, or a path to a b.
22:08:05 <elliott> Since (a, Void) is Void.
22:08:06 <shachaf> 15:07 <byorgey> shachaf: but I couldn't quite make it all work out nicely. but I'm still convinced there's something interesting there.
22:08:32 <shachaf> elliott: I have a feeling you're missing a point here.
22:08:40 <zzo38> Maybe, try something, see
22:08:48 <shachaf> Or are you trying to come up with a rule for log that Const Void doesn't satisfy?
22:09:42 <elliott> shachaf: Yes.
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22:11:51 <shachaf> elliott: Also, Log_b (a -> b) = a? That doesn't even make sense.
22:12:34 <elliott> shachaf: I think forgetting about "b" here is ideal.
22:12:38 <elliott> It seems misleading.
22:12:47 <elliott> (But it does seem to make sense somehow...)
22:12:48 <shachaf> elliott: Makes sense.
22:12:57 <shachaf> What about Bag x = e^x?
22:13:00 <elliott> (If you take b as some kind of continuation token, then the formulae involving b seem to make sense.)
22:13:03 <shachaf> Wait, no, we figured out that that was nonsense.
22:13:14 <shachaf> 15:12 <cmccann> shachaf, heh, that looks an awful lot like de morgan's law
22:13:49 <shachaf> 15:12 <lambdabot> cmccann: You have 5 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
22:13:52 <shachaf> 15:12 <cmccann> D:
22:14:03 <shachaf> elliott: Stop making cmccann's life painful.
22:14:19 <Phantom__Hoover> that was my fault
22:14:32 <shachaf> Phantom__Hoover: Oh, and you.
22:14:53 <elliott> I sent two; Phantom__Hoover sent one.
22:15:02 <elliott> If there's any more then either it's someone else or Phantom__Hoover decided to be more annoying than usual.
22:15:08 <shachaf> 15:14 <cmccann> did elliott finally lose it after all those lambdabot messages and start spamming everyone? :D
22:16:05 <elliott> shachaf: This is great. It's like being in #haskell except all the lines have wrong timestamps on them.
22:16:13 <shachaf> elliott: /join #haskell
22:16:21 <elliott> Why?
22:16:40 <shachaf> To fix your timestamps.
22:16:45 <shachaf> Otherwise I'll have to keep pasting.
22:16:51 <shachaf> 15:15 -!- gnuvince [~vince@ip-50-21-138-141.dsl.netrevolution.com] has joined #haskell
22:16:54 <shachaf> 15:15 -!- clahey is now known as cl_away
22:16:57 <shachaf> 15:15 -!- zhulikas [~Derp@] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
22:16:59 <shachaf> 15:15 <shachaf> cmccann: Hey, it does.
22:17:02 <shachaf> 15:16 -!- corruptmemory [~jim@h-64-236-128-62.nat.aol.com] has joined #haskell
22:17:45 <elliott> 15:17:15 <byorgey> heh, so I guess f ~ ((->) Void) works
22:17:57 <olsner> you know, if any of us wanted to be in #haskell we'd be in #haskell
22:18:01 <elliott> (Void -> a -> b) ~ (a, Void -> b)?
22:18:05 <elliott> Is that true?
22:18:08 <elliott> That's not true.
22:19:06 <elliott> Oh, it's (-> Void).
22:19:10 <shachaf> (-> Void), yes.
22:19:24 <elliott> ((a -> b) -> Void) ~ (a, b -> Void).
22:19:34 <elliott> not (a implies b) = a and not b
22:19:43 <elliott> Isn't that true in classical logic?
22:20:11 <shachaf> (0^x) is pretty close to (const 0) :-(
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22:20:20 <elliott> <elliott> You have b^log_b(a) = a. So Log a -> b should be iso to a. Problem: what's b?
22:20:23 <elliott> Also let's say b = Void.
22:20:27 <elliott> (Log a -> Void) ~ a
22:20:30 <elliott> ((a -> Void) -> Void) ~ a
22:20:32 <elliott> not not a ~ a
22:20:38 <elliott> snazzy
22:20:46 <zzo38> So it is for classical logic only, I guess.
22:20:50 <elliott> OK, now we can not think about Log ever again.
22:21:13 <Phantom__Hoover> Can't have logs base 0.
22:23:16 <shachaf> 15:21 <shachaf> byorgey: (-> Void) = (0^), which is worryingly close to (const 0)
22:23:22 <shachaf> 15:21 <shachaf> It doesn't really behave like a logarithm in terms of most things you expect from a logarithm, I think.
22:23:30 <shachaf> 15:21 <shachaf> Then again it's hard to do that while staying discrete. :-)
22:24:07 <olsner> what timezone are those timestamps in?
22:24:17 <Phantom__Hoover> GMT+shachaf
22:24:26 <olsner> is that a couple of minutes ago or 9 hours ago?
22:24:28 <shachaf> More like GMT-shachaf
22:24:38 <shachaf> olsner: A couple minutes ago.
22:25:54 <olsner> anyway, what's exponentiation in types?
22:26:03 <elliott> (->)
22:26:06 <elliott> a^b = b->a
22:27:49 <shachaf> Just like with sets!
22:28:02 <copumpkin> which is just iterated product!
22:28:19 <shachaf> Which is just iterated iterated sum!
22:29:10 <Phantom__Hoover> which is just iterated iterated iterated succ!
22:30:22 <elliott> which is just iterated iterated iterated iterated iterated iterated iterated iterated iterated iterated iterated iterated iterated iterated iterated iterated iterated iterated iterated iterated iterated iterated iterated iterated iterated iterated iterated iterated iterated iterated iterated iterated iterated iterated
22:30:26 <elliott> stack overflow
22:36:33 <olsner> I wasn't listening before, but was there any use for this Log thing except trying to figure out what it might mean?
22:37:12 <olsner> oh, and shouldn't it be Log b a or something? just guessing that the base should be involved somewhere
22:37:30 <shachaf> olsner: Real logarithms don't have bases.
22:37:37 <olsner> really?
22:37:48 <shachaf> Really.
22:37:56 <olsner> wow
22:37:58 <elliott> log_b(x) is just log(x)/log(b) so
22:38:08 <olsner> yah
22:38:23 <elliott> <olsner> I wasn't listening before, but was there any use for this Log thing except trying to figure out what it might mean?
22:38:23 <elliott> <shachaf> 15:07 <byorgey> shachaf: once upon a time I had this idea that log corresponded to "paths" in data structures
22:38:25 <elliott> <shachaf> 15:07 <byorgey> shachaf: e.g. a path to a value in an (a,b) structure is either a path to an a, or a path to a b.
22:38:26 <elliott> <shachaf> 15:07 <byorgey> shachaf: but I couldn't quite make it all work out nicely. but I'm still convinced there's something interesting there.
22:38:36 <shachaf> 15:38 <elliott> <shachaf> 15:07 <byorgey> shachaf: once upon a time I had this idea that log corresponded to "paths" in data structures
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22:39:57 <olsner> and log is the length of the path?
22:40:33 <elliott> no, Log t would be the path itself
22:40:38 <elliott> type of paths
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22:47:13 <olsner> alright, I am slep
22:47:16 <olsner> tell me if you ever figure it out though
22:52:48 <Sgeo> I want to make a Clojure-like language that gets some inspiration from Tcl.
22:52:53 <Sgeo> But the name....
22:53:06 <Sgeo> Tclj comes to mind, but that makes it look like it's primarily based on Tcl.
22:53:11 <Sgeo> I might call it Cloqure.
22:53:17 <Sgeo> Clojure with a lot of quote marks
22:56:34 <Sgeo> pikhq, is [uplevel] generally hated?
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23:07:34 <shachaf> 16:06 <Saizan> shachaf: btw, logarithms are easy for representable functors
23:07:42 -!- Arc_Koen has joined.
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23:08:11 <Arc_Koen> hello
23:08:49 <shachaf> elliott: do you know what that is :'(
23:09:11 <elliott> shachaf: yes
23:09:41 <Sgeo> Someone suggested Tclojure
23:10:18 <elliott> [[
23:10:19 <elliott> For a long years Archlinux WAS my favorite linux distibutive. Because it was simple and powerfull, flexible configurabe. It was really best choise for home and for server! And now, archlinux turning into ....even not Unbutu, Arch turning into Windows!!
23:10:19 <elliott> RIP, beloved ARCH!
23:10:19 <elliott> ]]
23:10:51 <shachaf> Arch turning into Windows!!??
23:10:54 <shachaf> oh no!!
23:11:15 <Phantom__Hoover> lennart poettering?
23:11:18 <Jafet> What next, gates turning into basements?
23:11:28 <Arc_Koen> yet another linux derivative
23:11:45 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: he's this guy who to goed to hell after someone flamed him on the arch linux forums
23:11:46 <Arc_Koen> hope it's not a simple substitution
23:11:52 <shachaf> https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?pid=1175809#p1175809
23:11:54 <Phantom__Hoover> oh ok
23:11:59 <shachaf> next time include the link :'(
23:12:01 <Phantom__Hoover> how is arch turning into windows btw
23:12:13 <Arc_Koen> in an AWFUL way
23:12:14 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: well all windows users to go to hell on a regular basis
23:12:40 <Arc_Koen> "this guy who to goed to hell"
23:12:42 <shachaf> Hmm, Lennart Poettering wrote PulseAudio.
23:12:51 <Arc_Koen> like, "to to go to hell" is a verb?
23:13:00 <pikhq> Sgeo: Uh, not so much "hated" as it is "use sparingly".
23:13:03 <elliott> Arc_Koen: if this post is any metric, then yes
23:13:25 <Arc_Koen> well I can live with that
23:13:36 <elliott> shachaf: yes
23:13:46 <Arc_Koen> as long as nobody starts to coming from hell
23:13:48 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
23:14:04 <Sgeo> pikhq, similarly to how in Lisps, people are expected to use macros sparingly?
23:14:18 <Sgeo> pikhq, and I'm thinking more in terms of, do alternatives exist
23:14:29 <Arc_Koen> (that was supposed to be a joke but I think it's broken)
23:14:59 <pikhq> Sgeo: Not really.
23:15:07 <pikhq> If you want custom control structures you need uplevel.
23:15:26 <elliott> (because tcl is bad)
23:15:27 -!- copumpkin has changed nick to BinderFullOfWome.
23:15:37 <Sgeo> pikhq, I don't mean within Tcl, I mean as far as language features go
23:15:42 <Phantom_Hoover> well you have to keep your wome somewhere
23:15:49 <Phantom_Hoover> can't just have it lying all over the place
23:15:50 -!- BinderFullOfWome has changed nick to BinderOfWomen.
23:15:50 <Sgeo> That would still give me pervasive eval + lexical scope
23:15:54 -!- BinderOfWomen has changed nick to copumpkin.
23:16:09 <Phantom_Hoover> is that a binder containing women, or is it someone who binds women?
23:16:27 -!- copumpkin has changed nick to BinderOfBigBird.
23:16:28 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
23:16:44 <elliott> BinderOfBigBird: hi
23:16:52 <BinderOfBigBird> hey
23:16:57 <Phantom_Hoover> oh god not another bird fetishist
23:17:11 <Sgeo> http://manuel.github.com/wat-js/doc/manual.html
23:17:15 <shachaf> BinderOfBigBird: Three rings to bind them all?
23:17:24 <BinderOfBigBird> yes
23:17:25 <Sgeo> kmc, ^
23:17:44 <elliott> kmc, v
23:18:00 <shachaf> kmc: <
23:18:10 <shachaf> Well, more like
23:18:13 <shachaf> kmc: ☚
23:19:20 <Arc_Koen> beware the turing tar pits
23:19:35 <Arc_Koen> oh wait, I was trying to make a pun by merging "turing" and "ring"
23:19:52 <Phantom_Hoover> ah, the famous ring tar pits
23:20:05 <Arc_Koen> see, it doesn't work
23:20:31 <Jafet> Tarring turpids
23:20:39 <Phantom_Hoover> tarring turnips
23:21:02 <Arc_Koen> well you understand my joke anyway and assuming we share some common sense of humour, you're free to go ahead and laugh even though the pun failed
23:21:16 <Arc_Koen> or better pretend it went right!!
23:22:41 <Arc_Koen> hey can I add Emmental to the list of featured language candidates?
23:23:45 <elliott> assuming you did not create it
23:24:21 <Arc_Koen> are you kidding it's chris pressey's
23:25:06 <elliott> idk maybe you are chris
23:25:10 <elliott> `pastelogs ZOMGMODULES
23:25:25 <Arc_Koen> MAYBE I AM
23:25:38 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.9977
23:26:40 <elliott> 2011-04-05.txt:20:38:24: * ZOMGMODULES IS ZOMGMODULES
23:26:48 <elliott> if only we still had chris around to dispense wisdom like this
23:27:05 <Phantom_Hoover> i
23:27:13 <Sgeo> Maybe I should make wat running on node.js my new favorite language.
23:27:15 <Phantom_Hoover> i've forgotten chris' last name :'(
23:27:18 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: pressey
23:27:20 * Phantom_Hoover looks up a few lines
23:27:24 <Phantom_Hoover> right, pressey
23:27:48 <kmc> Sgeo: ooooh
23:28:18 <elliott> 2011-04-05.txt:21:39:53: * ZOMGMODULES SAYS ONLY EXACTLY WHAT ZOMGMODULES MEANS
23:28:18 <elliott> 2011-04-05.txt:21:40:18: * ZOMGMODULES DISMISSES TSWETTBOT!!!!
23:28:19 <Arc_Koen> Phantom_Hoover: you hang around with brainfuck-equivalent designers too much
23:28:38 <Phantom_Hoover> why do you hurt me so ;_;
23:28:57 <elliott> 2011-04-05.txt:22:54:21: <ZOMGMODULES> YES
23:28:57 <elliott> 2011-04-05.txt:22:54:23: <ZOMGMODULES> YES YES YES
23:28:57 <elliott> 2011-04-05.txt:22:57:01: <ZOMGMODULES> THIS IS HOW CHILDREN LEARN
23:30:00 <shachaf> kmc: 16:29 <dolio> Boston has some good burritos.
23:30:00 <shachaf> 16:29 <shachaf> dolio: As good as SF?
23:30:00 <shachaf> 16:29 <dolio> I don't know.
23:30:16 <shachaf> kmc: You're clearly the one to answer this.
23:30:17 <kmc> i like beantown taqueria
23:30:19 <kmc> it's close to my house
23:30:22 <kmc> i was just there
23:30:32 <tswett> Wtf is tswettbot.
23:30:42 <shachaf> luite is in FS.
23:30:44 <shachaf> SF
23:30:48 <shachaf> That place with the burritos.
23:30:50 -!- BinderOfBigBird has changed nick to copumpkin.
23:31:08 <kmc> hm if i enumerate eight different ways of complaining about brainfuck-equivalent esolangs, then...
23:31:20 <elliott> tswett: something you made in 2k11
23:31:34 <tswett> Wtf is 2011.
23:31:43 <shachaf> 2k11 = 22,000
23:31:48 <kmc> yes
23:31:50 <shachaf> 2.011k = 2011
23:31:52 <tswett> I remember no such year as 2011.
23:32:19 <kmc> i have invented a language where each line is a transcript of something said in #esoteric complaining about brainfuck-equivalent esolangs
23:32:47 <Phantom_Hoover> is it a brainfuck equivalent
23:33:04 <kmc> each line performs an operation equivalent to one of brainfuck's <>+-,.[] according to the number of the day on which the thing was first said, mod 8
23:33:25 <shachaf> I have invented a language where Phantom_Hoover = [, elliotit = ], shachaf = <, kmc = >, tswett = -, pikhq = +, oerjan = ,, olsner = .
23:33:38 <shachaf> Sorry oerjan. :-( You got the worst operator.
23:33:45 <Arc_Koen> kmc: does that mean your language evolves every time someone complains about brainfuck equivalents?
23:33:47 <elliott> elliotit
23:33:51 <shachaf> Oh, and operators have to be enclosed in <>
23:33:55 <kmc> shachaf: do you also have a giant chessboard and 32 silly outfits?
23:34:07 <kmc> Arc_Koen: yeah, though old programs should keep the same meaning
23:34:19 <shachaf> elliott: "oopse"
23:34:38 <shachaf> "ddoublle lleterss are hard"
23:34:39 <kmc> elliotit: the wiki server backed by the elliott content tracker
23:35:06 <elliott> kmc: that's just esolangs.org
23:35:10 <Arc_Koen> so we're developing brainfuck-equivalent supersets of brainfuck-equivalents? EVEN WORSE
23:35:11 <shachaf> kmc: More like the elliot content tracker.
23:35:17 <Arc_Koen> that's like being brainraped
23:36:16 <Arc_Koen> wait I was supposed to put "we create brainfuck-equivalents against our will" in one of the sentences before, otherwise the joke doesn't work
23:36:24 <Arc_Koen> did I just fail three jokes in a row?
23:36:44 <shachaf> kmc: Today I overheard people talking about their social photo-sharing app for iOS.
23:39:13 -!- elliott has left ("Leaving").
23:41:57 -!- Nisstyre has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:42:12 <kmc> isn't that every day in the bay area
23:42:28 <kmc> \
23:42:34 <shachaf> Pretty much. :-(
23:42:38 <kmc> No newline at end of file
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