00:20:50 our CEO sent himself an email last night with one word in the subject and no body 00:21:02 and today nobody (including him) can figure out what it means 00:29:33 :O 00:33:03 Oh great, now I have a new programming language/environment to be interested in 00:33:08 http://www.ciaohome.org/ 00:37:06 "This produces an executable called hello in Un*x-like systems and hello.cpx under Win32 systems." 00:37:10 ... .cpx 00:37:11 wat. 00:45:54 -!- Bike has joined. 00:47:54 Control Panel eXecutable? 00:47:59 I guess that's .cpl. 00:48:13 kmc: What was the word? 00:48:47 Oh, I think it's executables just for where Ciao is installed 00:48:49 the bird 00:48:56 Hi Bike. You're a #lisp native, right? 00:50:11 I suppose I must be. 00:50:48 hi Bike 00:50:55 Yo. 00:51:14 yopumpkin 00:51:34 yontrapumpkin 00:53:53 shachaf: Rosebud 00:54:01 not really 00:54:11 on another note http://www.nietzschefamilycircus.com/ 00:54:34 «Surface is the disposition of woman: a mobile, stormy film over shallow water.» ergh. 00:54:45 Don't be like that, Billy. 00:56:16 kmc: Did he also die? 00:58:39 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:06:33 no 01:37:25 -!- hagb4rd|afk has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 03:05:14 -!- hagb4rd|afk has joined. 03:44:42 Someone asked what the government does with the hour they take from us when daylight saving time is on. 03:45:35 haha 03:45:51 zzo38: Did you read _Momo_? 03:53:40 No 03:53:53 But anyways daylight saving time does eventually is off too 04:03:32 'The drama “SEAL Team Six,” about the raid that killed Osama bin Laden, was edited to give a starring role to the president. It will be shown on television two days before the election.' 04:03:36 that is classy 04:04:49 Do you know why (in Dungeons&Dragons) game I want the evil chancellor to be sunburned? 04:07:20 why 04:08:06 Same reason why I need the nail clippers and facial hair trimmer, and one of the two reasons I need the wig. 04:10:03 Can you make any guess? 04:21:59 -!- centrinia has joined. 04:25:34 -!- monqy has joined. 04:26:01 "Learning Ruby if you know Python is like learning Spanish if you know French. It's not going to stretch your brain, but it will help you talk to half of San Francisco." 04:28:08 Hah. 04:28:10 Where's that from? 04:30:54 I also want to know, where is that from? 04:31:18 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: If you don't know my question, OK, you will figure out eventually when I write on my computer). 04:34:25 -!- Nisstyre has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 04:42:23 Eh, Ruby is more functional than Python 04:46:05 whatever 04:46:13 shachaf: a quote from a friend, paraphrased 04:46:17 Sgeo: but is it more of a lisp than python? 04:46:32 i'm not sure that Ruby the language is actually more functional, but the Ruby community is less fearful and misunderstanding of FP 04:46:33 -!- Nisstyre has joined. 04:46:42 * Sgeo thwacks shachaf 04:47:06 I'm not the one who should be thwacked here! 04:47:16 Although, Ruby is more amenable to using the same forms to change definitions than Python is, if that counts for anything whatsoever 04:47:38 class C: 04:47:47 someinstance = C() 04:47:52 class C: 04:48:08 That won't change instances already made. 04:48:24 It will instead make a new class called C, and the old class isn't referred to by C anymore 04:50:09 anything like update-instance-for-redefined-class? 04:50:38 You can modify classes, just not with the class syntax 04:50:52 And the instances will behave as by the changed class 04:50:54 ah. 04:51:03 -!- hagb4rd|afk has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 05:10:42 kmc: Sigh, this Wikipedia article uses italic N to mean something completely different from bold N. 05:11:13 Well, not completely different. I guess N is an element of the image of N, or something. 05:11:44 haha 05:11:48 maths 05:15:47 So guys, you know how there's no computable set of axioms that uniquely defines the natural numbers? 05:16:09 "uniquely"? 05:16:25 yeah what does that mean 05:16:28 How do you catch a unique definition of the natural numbers? 05:16:36 Yeah. Like, there are computable sets of axioms that the natural numbers satisfy. 05:16:49 But for all such sets, there are also things other than the natural numbers that also satisfy the same axioms. 05:16:51 up to isomoprhism? how are we defining isomorphisms in our metatheory? 05:17:29 According to their definition? 05:17:39 i'm confused 05:17:47 Two monoids are isomorphic if there exists a bijection between them that commutes with the monoid operation. 05:18:09 well i'm not too impressed with isomorphisms in the metatheory, as it's not formal 05:18:43 I suppose the tricky question is: how are we defining the phrase "the natural numbers" so that we can talk about them? 05:19:05 well it's not so important which one is "the natural numbers", just that there are two non-isomorphic things satisfying these axioms 05:19:13 Right. 05:19:23 before you keep going, can I just ask if "uniquely" was actually important to what you said? 05:19:55 Well, yes, it is. Like I said, it's possible to come up with a computable set of axioms that is satisfied by the natural numbers. 05:19:55 For example, the natural numbers are a model of the Peano axioms. 05:20:00 But there are also other models of the Peano axioms. 05:20:25 ok, just checking. 05:21:21 can you easily describe another model of PA? 05:21:40 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peano_axioms#Nonstandard_models perhaps 05:21:56 oh there's an *upward* Löwenheim–Skolem theorem?? 05:22:37 Also, smbc++ 05:23:35 "there is no countable nonstandard model of PA in which either the addition or multiplication operation is computable" 05:24:06 How many models of Palo Alto are there? 05:31:39 you know there is all this consternation over the fact that things with mediocre design (UNIX, PHP, x86) get popular while their better-designed competitors languish in obscurity 05:31:47 and much theory built around "worse is better" and such 05:31:55 but i just realized what the simplest explanation is 05:32:05 popularity is random, and most things are poorly designed 05:32:07 that's all 05:32:21 but can you sell a book with that premise 05:32:36 well i can but whether it becomes a best-seller is a crapshoot 05:32:37 :) 05:33:12 popularity doesn't even have to be that random for this to hold 05:33:26 because the degree to which most things are poorly designed is overwhelming 05:33:50 though PHP is not so much poorly designed as not designed at all 05:39:32 So, just how *do* you define "natural number", anyway? 05:39:43 Go with your heart. 05:40:03 what is natural number, baby don't hurt me, don't hurt me, no more 05:40:04 I guess it's easy if you have a definition of "set". 05:40:50 http://www.macroeducation.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/calvin-hobbes-imaginary-numbers-and-calculus.gif 05:40:59 And the notion of "set" seems perfectly intuitive. 05:41:09 'seems', how tricky 05:41:32 Sets are those things such that, for every collection of thingies, there's a set containing precisely those thingies. 05:41:50 doesn't that just move the definition to 'collection'? 05:41:53 Yes. 05:44:29 Except the collection of all sets 05:45:12 The collection of all sets that do not contain Jafet. 05:45:55 Bike: ZFC's handling of 'classes' requires inelegant circumlocution in the metatheory 05:47:06 I am the set of all things that contain Jafet. 05:47:09 Jafet: well, not all sets are thingies. 05:47:30 Bike: NBG is a conservative extension of ZFC that has proper classes 05:47:46 but does not allow the use of arbitrary quantification over all classes, only over all sets 05:47:58 however, this restriction is sort of arbitrary, really 05:48:32 so if you allow quantification over all classes, you get MK 05:48:42 unfortunately, that only works out with inelegant circumlocution in the metatheory 05:48:45 so uh 05:48:56 Sorry, what did I say to prompt this? 05:49:34 01:41:50 < Bike> doesn't that just move the definition to 'collection'? 05:49:41 'inelegant circumlocution in the metatheory' sounds like a The Mars Volta song title 05:50:11 Theorem: any sufficiently advanced set theory requires inelegant circumlocution in the metatheory. 05:50:54 A The Mars Volta sounds like a Mothers of Invention song title 05:55:15 "He would throw away a radio that was on without turning it off first." 05:57:08 * coppro likes NBG and things it should replace ZFC 05:57:12 *thinks 05:57:27 Oh, why? 05:57:45 Because it has classes as actual objects 05:57:54 some branches of math (like category theory) effectively work in NBG 05:57:59 although this hasn't really trickled down 05:58:24 also NBG has a wonderful axiom that implies global choice 05:58:31 which is pretty cool 05:58:38 What's global choice? 05:59:50 I like NFU and think it should replace NBG. 05:59:55 ZFC can remain. 06:01:24 Then again, maybe category theory doesn't work so well in NFU? 06:01:26 Bike: Regular choice except it applies to all classes, not just sets 06:01:39 Oh. 06:01:52 That is pretty cool. 06:02:12 tswett: stratified formulas? ewwww 06:03:08 C'mon, stratified formulas are great. 06:03:48 I've completely forgotten why anyone would ever want a non-stratified formula. 06:04:15 You know what, I'm really sleepy and I should go to bed *right now*. I'm not even going to bo 06:05:34 dudde didn't even bo. 06:06:01 `addquote < tswett> You know what, I'm really sleepy and I should go to bed *right now*. I'm not even going to bo 06:06:08 872) < tswett> You know what, I'm really sleepy and I should go to bed *right now*. I'm not even going to bo 06:09:18 -!- centrinia has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat). 06:12:00 you computer scientists always have such massive boners for set & category theory 06:12:59 I blame Gödel 06:13:40 i mostly wonder why mathematicians usually don't have equal boners for these things 06:13:58 I also blame reductionism 06:14:08 oklopol: I am a mathematician 06:14:49 i'm mostly going by what i've seen in cs conferences versus what i've seen among mathematicians in our department 06:15:06 oklopol: deparments are not necessarily representative 06:15:10 which is a somewhat silly comparison yeah 06:15:12 I don't think my school has a set theorist 06:15:19 and we have an entire faculty of mathematics 06:15:30 (we do, however, have several logicians, and perhaps they count 06:15:30 right 06:15:53 we don't have many things 06:16:49 i guess just cellular automata, combinatorics on words, analytic number theory, functional analysis and coding theory 06:16:59 maybe ten more i just didn't come up with 06:17:01 my school is kinda big on graph theory 06:17:47 and other combinatorics stuff 06:17:50 oh right one guy in our dep wrote a book on two structures which are basically graphs (although perhaps you study slightly more coding-y stuff) 06:18:09 actually there's a bit of hilarious history there 06:18:15 you've heard of bill tutte? 06:18:25 well i've heard of tutte's formula 06:18:42 yeah, it's that tutte 06:18:46 so he was at the University of Toronto 06:19:57 * Sgeo pokes Bike into #clojure 06:20:21 in the first major hiring coup of the Department of Combinatorics and Optimization, UW successfully managed to get Tutte to come over 06:20:23 Can you poke the Clojure out of this channel and into #clojure while you're at it? 06:20:27 Clojure isn't an esolang. 06:20:33 5 years before the department (or even the faculty) existed, mind you 06:20:45 UW? 06:20:49 Oh, *that* UW. 06:20:53 sgeo was responding to me about another channel, sorry 06:20:53 Pft. 06:21:11 shachaf: haha 06:21:18 yeah, I'm at *that* UW 06:21:33 how does it feel to be at the wrong uw 06:21:38 the department was basically founded to get Tutte 06:21:45 heh 06:21:47 shachaf: I am at the right one 06:22:04 coppro: I thought you were at the east one. 06:22:22 shachaf: I am. 06:22:27 soooo what's *that UW*? 06:22:29 The east one is the wrong one. 06:22:31 erm 06:22:36 *that* UW 06:22:46 oklopol: University of Waterloo 06:22:54 coppro knows which UW I'm talkin' about. 06:23:26 "In matroid theory he discovered the highly sophisticated homotopy theorem" 06:23:32 Is that different from the regular homotopy theorem? 06:25:04 C&O recently hired Bill Cook, a graduate of the department (of like 20 years ago) who researches some piddly little problem about vagabond merchants 06:25:31 what's the regular homotopy theorem? 06:26:01 I don't know. 06:26:05 But I bet it's not as sophisticated. 06:26:08 in any case presumably matroid stuff is rather different from "usual stuff" since matroids are finite objects 06:27:06 i don't know of a homotopy theorem 06:27:17 pointcare's theorem is a kind of homotopy theorem ofc 06:27:56 it states that if you're homotopy equivalent to the boundary of a 3-dimensional ball then you're homeomorphic to it 06:28:41 (homeomorphic being the usual topological equivalence, homotopy equivalence is somewhat more crazy, but easier to compute supposedly) 06:44:11 -!- Frooxius has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 06:49:44 -!- epicmonkey has joined. 06:52:11 matroids are awesome, you have paths in a finite set and shit 06:53:07 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: Lost terminal). 06:53:25 -!- monqy has joined. 06:53:46 oklopol: yeah, matroid theory is pretty sweet 06:53:53 Taking a course in it this summer 06:53:56 i guess you do in graph theory as well but i'm used to that 06:54:07 I 06:54:08 *I 06:54:11 bah 06:54:19 *I'm sort of sad it's a grad student teaching it though 06:54:30 understandable typo 06:54:57 I have one of the department's eminent matroid theorists as a prof this term in graph theory (and second-year optimization, oddly) and he's quite good; I was hoping he'd be doing the matroid course too :( 06:55:02 we have a course on hyperreals starting next week :P 06:55:07 ooh, cool 06:55:20 and nonstandard analysis in general 06:56:40 i talked to the prof about it, he said he decided this year that he's finally old enough to teach it. 06:57:02 prolly close to 70 06:57:46 haha 06:57:51 Are there some kind of legal age limits, then? 06:57:51 that should be pretty sweet 06:58:07 I've touched on nonstandard arithmetic; it's cool 07:00:15 he quoted "All Hope Abandon Ye Of Career Development Who Enter Here" to me 07:00:37 which apparently is a saying among people who do nonstandard analysis. 07:00:41 at least in finlandg 07:00:44 *finland 07:02:08 that's not on divine comedy's wp page so i wonder if it's considered the best line in the book in the english world. 07:04:37 what i know about the book is 1. it has a finnish version of "All Hope Abandon Ye Who Enter Here" 2. it's really boring and eww 3. some ridiculous shit about afterlife 07:05:47 not only am i planning to do nonstandard analysis, i'm planning to do CA theory using it. 07:06:16 because CA theory is just not unpopular enough. 07:08:29 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 07:11:26 http://sphotos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/416836_4715798089966_820576442_n.jpg 07:18:56 kmc: Did you know Hackage 2 upgrades the Hackage authentication mechanism? Instead of "salted DES: perl crypt", they use "md5 (username ++ ":" ++ realm ++ ":" ++ password)". 07:19:37 No salte? 07:20:28 Modernization at its best. 07:20:46 Also, is there a reason to choose MD5 for anything nowadays? 07:20:49 ion: I'm not sure that's as big of a concern as the "md5" bit. 07:21:13 I mean, username+realm is probably nearly as good as a salt at the sorts of things a salt is supposed to prevent? 07:23:16 -!- Tod-Autojoined has joined. 07:23:36 As far as I know neither of those mechanisms is very good. 07:23:57 ion: I use md5 to verify checksums of .isos sometimes. 07:25:19 -!- TodPunk has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 07:38:33 -!- barts_ has joined. 07:44:53 -!- barts_ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 07:48:23 -!- FreeFull has quit. 08:24:39 -!- Bike has quit (Quit: sleep). 08:30:18 -!- epicmonkey has joined. 09:14:29 -!- Jafet has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 09:33:57 -!- Jafet has joined. 09:36:55 -!- barts_ has joined. 10:24:51 -!- hagb4rd|afk has joined. 10:29:23 -!- ais523 has joined. 10:30:52 why does email not have a "reply to multiple emails" option 10:31:12 for when you get emails from more than one person asking much the same thing, who'd benefit from seeing each other's questions and your joint answers 10:33:06 -!- Jafet has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 10:40:11 -!- Jafet has joined. 10:46:34 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 10:58:47 -!- Jafet has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 10:59:30 Should have used Bill once again. “EXT4 Data Corruption Bug Hits Stable Linux Kernels” http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTIxNDQ 11:04:50 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello). 11:18:37 -!- Jafet has joined. 11:48:04 -!- impomatic has joined. 11:55:28 -!- ais523 has joined. 12:00:43 -!- Nisstyre has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 12:16:01 -!- Nisstyre has joined. 12:16:08 -!- Arc_Koen has joined. 12:21:28 -!- boily has joined. 12:24:03 -!- carado has joined. 12:32:34 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 12:32:48 Hello 12:37:25 hello 12:43:32 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:44:46 -!- ais523 has joined. 12:47:00 -!- impomatic has quit (Quit: http://BASICcomic.com). 12:51:02 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 12:51:38 -!- barts_ has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 12:53:17 -!- nortti_ has changed nick to nortti. 12:58:07 -!- elliott has joined. 13:08:29 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 13:22:06 -!- ais523 has joined. 13:25:05 -!- FreeFull has joined. 13:55:10 -!- mindlessDrone has joined. 13:58:14 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 14:04:28 -!- Frooxius has joined. 14:12:27 -!- MoALTz has joined. 14:17:16 -!- krofna has joined. 14:19:04 -!- copumpkin has joined. 14:28:12 -!- elliott has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 14:30:21 -!- elliott has joined. 14:52:08 -!- hagb4rd|afk has quit (Quit: hagb4rd|afk). 14:56:02 ais523: hi 15:19:57 -!- mindlessDrone has left. 15:23:56 -!- ais523 has quit. 15:25:40 my tumblr still hasn't been updated :( 15:32:42 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 15:43:23 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 15:46:34 -!- krofna has quit (Quit: Leaving). 15:50:44 -!- Vorpal has joined. 16:08:31 -!- Frooxius has quit (*.net *.split). 16:08:36 -!- sirdancealot7 has quit (*.net *.split). 16:08:36 -!- heroux has quit (*.net *.split). 16:08:56 -!- heroux has joined. 16:09:11 -!- Frooxius has joined. 16:09:21 -!- sirdancealot7 has joined. 16:13:13 -!- Bike has joined. 16:14:22 -!- ais523 has joined. 16:19:16 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:47:09 Phantom_Hoover: and yet there are but so many derivatives/equivalents awaiting for their well-deserved brick 16:47:31 it's unfortunate 16:52:46 -!- augur has joined. 16:54:26 -!- zzo38 has joined. 17:31:15 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:35:43 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 17:36:05 -!- epicmonkey has joined. 17:43:51 -!- rapido has joined. 17:46:47 are there any 'spreadsheet' like esoteric programming languages? 17:47:26 Possibly 17:48:43 i've created one but i want to know about prior art 17:49:11 I think Excel is turing-complete 17:49:19 Someone made a 3D engine in Excel 17:49:23 rapido: loeb :: Functor f => f (f a -> a) -> f a 17:49:31 without an escape to Visual basic i believe not 17:49:38 excel is not turing complete 17:49:58 Related: http://youtu.be/_whSnPErl7c 17:50:21 ion: cool - but it doesn't resemble a spreadsheet 17:50:29 If you're going to have a 2D gridthing language, I prefer something like Befunge over spreadsheets 17:50:42 rapido: http://blog.sigfpe.com/2006/11/from-l-theorem-to-spreadsheet.html 17:51:43 loeb is in fact spreadsheety 17:51:48 oh kmc already linked 17:53:06 ah, cool - thanks for the pointer to loeb 17:53:50 i've come up with another spreadsheet language which i believe is original 17:54:01 i'm sure you guys will know if that's the case 17:54:17 here it goes: 17:54:39 i call it the SPREAD language 17:54:52 this name isn't taking yes - which surprised me 17:55:00 s/yes/yet 17:55:19 SPREAD introduces three new concepts to a spreadsheet 17:56:05 1) Instead of one single value, a cell can have more alternative values: a Set of values 17:56:11 didn't https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups=#!topic/comp.lang.misc/USKSdYN_uHk introduce the concept of using a spreadsheet? 17:56:17 2) Next to Numbers, Strings, Dates, etc, we have an additional cell type: the 'Spreadsheet' 17:56:44 A cell can be named or 'Labeled' with anything - Numbers, Strings, Dates and …… spreadsheets 17:57:06 such spreadsheet is called a higher-order spreadsheet 17:58:45 i've written about it on my blog http://oercode.blogspot.nl/2012/10/higher-order-spreadheets.html 17:59:25 i'm pretty sure it is an original idea - at least google doesn't show anything 18:00:22 -!- Arc_Koen has quit (Quit: Arc_Koen). 18:00:49 i've also creating a algebra of streams - which i may or may not include in SPREAD 18:00:50 http://oercode.blogspot.nl/2012/10/stream-algebra.html 18:01:08 hopefully this will give you guys food for thought 18:02:01 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 18:02:13 -!- augur has joined. 18:02:40 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 18:03:06 -!- augur has joined. 18:06:00 i guess SPREAD is not esoteric enough 18:14:56 i think higher-order spreadsheets are not turing complete 18:15:28 but higher-order spreadsheets are certainly much more powerful than ordinary spreadsheets 18:17:11 ping 18:18:11 @ping 18:18:11 pong 18:18:37 ah 18:18:45 i still have a connection 18:19:05 colloquy is not always showing that 18:20:28 does anyone care to comment on the 'higher-order spreadsheet' idea? 18:31:51 -!- barts_ has joined. 18:35:10 rapido: Now have a cell that embeds a spreadsheet that has a cell that embeds the original spreadsheet 18:35:23 you cannot express that 18:35:43 I just did 18:37:02 sure, but it is impossible to construct it - given the fact that spreadsheets are values (immutable), just like immutable lists 18:37:30 (btw, spreadsheet are not lazy values) 18:37:44 s/spreadsheet/spreadsheets 18:38:46 there is no tying the loop - as in a lazy functional language 18:38:54 but may be i'm wrong 18:41:04 I also believe SPREAD can be seen as a total functional language 18:42:26 the evaluation of a spreadsheet is lazy though (demand driven) 18:42:46 or can be made demand driven 18:44:44 there is no way a spreadsheet can refer to itself - it would create a cycle 18:46:25 but it is an interesting idea to allow it 18:50:46 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:53:55 -!- oerjan has joined. 18:55:41 enchilada is definitely esoteric 18:57:30 The _whole_ enchilada? 18:57:54 yes, if you want 18:58:16 oerjan: do you know about http://www.enchiladacode.nl ? 18:58:44 i chose the name enchilada exactly to make that pun 'the whole enchilada' 18:59:09 good, good. 19:00:54 i've also created the syrup language - 'a language that sticks' 19:01:03 tape -> tap seems an unlikely typo correction for esolang... 19:01:13 ic. 19:01:14 (because it is transactional) 19:03:40 and most recently the SPREAD language: 'get a taste of SPREAD' 19:04:03 i still need to find a better pun for the SPREAD language 19:04:28 naming a programming language can be difficult 19:05:07 i don't know, does it have condiments? 19:05:56 SPREAD! A tasteful language 19:06:30 it has no deadlocks, although it does have jams 19:12:09 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later). 19:15:03 let's smear some code 19:21:14 -!- augur has joined. 19:28:57 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 19:33:48 -!- rapido has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:34:10 -!- rapido has joined. 20:02:02 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:11:04 -!- augur has joined. 20:18:05 -!- ais523 has quit. 20:18:18 -!- ais523 has joined. 20:23:37 -!- lowtax has joined. 20:26:10 -!- boily has quit (Quit: Poulet!). 20:28:23 -!- Araq has joined. 20:28:59 so this channel actually exists ... 20:29:03 -!- Araq has left. 20:30:56 no it doesn't 20:32:58 it sounds to me like we're legendary or something 20:33:23 brainfuckers! 20:33:44 `welcome lowtax 20:33:55 lowtax: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) 20:34:00 \o/ 20:35:03 WE ARE LEGION 20:35:23 ok lol 20:39:19 lowtax? 20:39:23 i know that name from somewhere 20:39:52 from #nimrod 20:40:00 oh, it's the nickname of the sa founder 20:40:40 -!- impomatic has joined. 20:41:51 I want one of these to play with! http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MAXIMITE-computer-/170924771749?pt=UK_VintageComputing_RL&hash=item27cbe909a5 20:42:13 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:44:49 -!- bjelleklang has joined. 20:52:22 -!- bjelleklang has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat). 21:00:01 http://www.coderanch.com/t/580590/java/java/Laptop-battery-level-indicator-Java 21:00:27 My brain just melted at the second post. 21:01:28 http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2012/10/dkim-vulnerability-widespread/all/ 21:02:07 tl;dr: Dude receives sufficiently incompetent recruiting email from Google that he thinks it's a puzzle, guesses that the puzzle is that google.com's 512-bit DKIM key is crackable, proceeds to crack it, spoofs email from Larry Page 21:07:42 Seems like it's easy to fix, at least, just generate stronger keys 21:07:48 And revoke the weak ones 21:08:40 don't know if this is one of the applications where key revocation actually works 21:08:43 but yeah 21:09:27 -!- impomatic has quit (Quit: http://BASICcomic.com). 21:12:55 tl;dr: Dude receives sufficiently incompetent recruiting email from Google that he thinks it's a puzzle, guesses that the puzzle is that google.com's 512-bit DKIM key is crackable, proceeds to crack it, spoofs email from Larry Page 21:12:57 wow 21:13:07 kmc: i got a recruiting email from google once! 21:13:43 haa 21:13:45 me too elliott 21:13:46 me too 21:14:39 kmc: apparently i am good at "haskell programming and build systems" 21:14:56 i think the latter is because i changed ninja's configure script once to work on arch 21:16:34 haha 21:16:39 are you a ninja ninja? 21:16:45 or are you more of a ninja rockstar 21:17:45 kmc: there has to be someone who uses jquery who is in a rock band 21:17:54 kmc: and who also does martial arts stuff 21:17:56 a true jquery ninja rockstar 21:18:11 isn't that like 50% of san francisco 21:18:27 kmc: close... those don't count as people 21:19:01 -!- augur has joined. 21:19:36 unfortunately "rockstar" and "ninja" are higher standards than "in a band" and "does martial arts stuff" 21:20:23 Christos Papadimitriou is a famous computer scientist and also wrote a graphic novel and is in a band 21:21:06 "At UC Berkeley, in 2006, he joined a professor-and-graduate-student band called Lady X and The Positive Eigenvalues." 21:21:11 that does not even count as a band, sorry kmc 21:23:53 -!- monqy has joined. 21:27:20 Did you know there's a computer scientist called "Nikolaos Bourbakis"? 21:32:38 an actual one? 21:33:19 So they say. 22:18:42 -!- Arc_Koen has joined. 22:34:52 -!- Vorpal has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 22:49:44 -!- Nisstyre has quit (Quit: Leaving). 22:57:06 -!- Nisstyre has joined. 22:58:13 * ais523 sees misleading ad on YouTube, reports it to Google 22:58:17 just for fun, really, I don't expect much to happen 22:59:48 Hello, Thanks for sending feedback about an ad that violates AdWords policies. Although we won't be able to respond to your feedback personally, we'll make sure it reaches the appropriate team and, if necessary, take the appropriate action. 22:59:59 I even checked the policies to make sure it was against them 23:00:18 what was the ad 23:07:32 youtube is promoting automatic differentiation?! 23:09:09 shachaf: does lens support partial lenses 23:09:48 elliott: Ask in #haskell. 23:09:54 What's a partial lens? 23:10:05 idk 23:10:35 shachaf: probably (a -> Maybe (b, b -> a)) 23:11:47 whose ad was it? 23:12:06 One must differentiate between conal-style ad and edwardk-style ad. 23:12:31 foreach x delete x 23:13:03 elliott: You could turn that into (a -> (Maybe b, b -> a)) 23:13:16 I wonder whether that would be dishonest. 23:13:19 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined. 23:14:28 -!- rapido has quit (Quit: rapido). 23:14:57 -!- Nisstyre has quit (Quit: Leaving). 23:17:00 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 23:18:10 -!- rapido has joined. 23:18:38 -!- rapido has quit (Client Quit). 23:20:40 I believe ais523 once said something about JVM being a better runtime? 23:20:40 http://www.reddit.com/r/netsec/comments/11xt71/challenging_oracle_in_a_different_way_how_hard_it/ 23:20:46 Although, hmm 23:26:05 elliott: You could turn that into (a -> (Maybe b, b -> a)) 23:26:09 That's the other kind of partial lens. 23:26:21 shachaf: It's dishonest when you have PartialLens (Either a b) a. 23:26:24 Or rather, 23:26:33 data Foo a = Foo a String | Bar Int 23:26:42 And try to put an Int into a Foo constructor. 23:26:44 You drop the String. 23:26:49 That's sort of bad. 23:26:58 Sgeo: Better than what? 23:27:09 .NET 23:28:26 Sgeo: your comment seems to ignore the word "seem". 23:32:29 elliott, feel free to reply on Reddit? I feel weird saying something in public and only being criticized in private 23:32:43 that's effort though 23:33:06 also I haven't posted on reddit in a whole month 23:33:09 that's a streak to keep up 23:35:58 haha 23:36:08 i haven't posted on reddit in like a year 23:36:08 it takes effor not to get dragged into the shitty reddits 23:36:14 but today i told some random person off on stack overflow 23:36:17 so it balances out 23:36:17 (note: the shitty reddits are not shitty) 23:36:18 elliott: You should ask edwardk. 23:36:20 http://www.reddit.com/r/netsec/comments/11xt71/challenging_oracle_in_a_different_way_how_hard_it/c6rauet 23:36:30 see 23:36:31 the swan and paedo 23:36:34 that one is shitty 23:36:52 coppro, o.O /r/netsec is shitty? 23:38:06 ... 23:38:12 I just claimed that elliott commented on Reddit. 23:38:17 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 23:38:47 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 23:39:00 kmc: link 23:39:15 coppro: all the reddits are shitty 23:39:17 Sgeo: examples of good reddits include /r/shittyaskscience and /r/lolphp 23:39:24 except /r/haskell is ok sometimes and /r/roguelikes too 23:39:25 * Sgeo loves /r/lolphp 23:39:37 coppro, what's wrong with /r/askscience ? 23:39:54 it's okay 23:40:11 stackexchange sucks, I've learned this 23:41:17 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 23:41:35 Sgeo, robotrollcall, until she left 23:42:08 * Sgeo now has the MST3k theme in his head 23:42:26 stackexchange doesn't suck imo 23:42:30 very useful for a certain subset of problems 23:44:41 elliott: edwardk is in #haskell 23:44:48 "nows ur chance" 23:45:28 -!- Frooxius has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 23:45:56 nop 23:46:24 anyway 23:46:24 type Lens a b c d = forall f. Functor f => (c -> f d) -> a -> f b 23:46:26 let's set a=b, c=d 23:46:38 forall f. Functor f => (c -> f c) -> a -> f a 23:46:40 That's Simple Lens. 23:46:43 I should probably watch that talk on lenses 23:46:43 no 23:46:45 well yes 23:46:46 if you do that set 23:46:47 Any links? 23:46:48 so seems not 23:46:51 but if you do like 23:46:58 (c -> Maybe c) -> a -> Maybe a 23:47:00 then maybe it works?? 23:47:04 but then you can't compose it properly I gues 23:47:06 s/gues/guess/ 23:47:11 Hmm? 23:47:18 idk 23:47:26 You're using Maybe as your f? 23:47:34 What does that do? 23:47:45 idk 23:49:57 elliott: What if you used Either, though? 23:50:37 idk 23:50:41 but don't the lens utilities set f to various things 23:50:47 so it doesn't work if you use one that isn't universally-quantified 23:50:54 hm 23:50:54 type Traversal a b c d = forall f. Applicative f => (c -> f d) -> a -> f b 23:50:57 what if you use traverse on Maybe 23:51:01 Well, the way you quantify it depends on what the f is. 23:51:17 i guess i will ask edwardk in a minute 23:51:26 If you want just a setter you use Identity, if you want just a getter you use Const. 23:51:45 elliott, :( sorry 23:51:59 Sgeo: what 23:52:15 edwardk left immediately after finishing talking to me 23:52:26 oh 23:52:27 you suck 23:53:09 Sgeohno 23:53:29 You could @ask him 23:53:47 too lazy 23:54:08 -!- Tod-Autojoined has quit (Quit: This is me, signing off. Probably rebooting or something.). 23:54:19 -!- TodPunk has joined. 23:54:25 shachaf: "This isn't *quite* a legal lens." :( 23:54:55 Otherwise, this is a perfectly cromulent Lens. 23:54:56 You can't bring this lens across state lines. 23:55:09 elliott doesn't know what a state is 23:55:40 elliott, well, at least because of me you now have a link to the slides from the recent talk if you didn't before 23:56:16 Also, going to need to follow @PLT_Borat 23:57:35 shachaf: you're a state :( 23:57:58 Sgeo: I think I already posted those slides. 23:59:28 elliott: What are "f"s that make sense other than Identity and Const? 23:59:34 idk 23:59:41 You can use Writer to do Foldable-style things.