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00:35:54 <kmc> http://phpmanualmasterpieces.tumblr.com/post/33023415508/when-does-one-byte-equal-four-kilobytes
00:38:51 <coppro> tswett: isn't w ^(3) w just epsilon_omega?
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01:22:47 <Sgeo> Oh sweet Jesus don't use this in real code
01:22:50 <Sgeo> http://briancarper.net/blog/449/clojure-reader-macros
01:24:09 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc, http://phpmanualmasterpieces.tumblr.com/post/33239208258/drop-the-ball
01:24:39 <Phantom_Hoover> for allowing me to know that someone thought this was a good idea
01:25:58 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.matthewdaocs.co.uk/blog/2012/10/21/Life-Lessons-Stage-2-12.aspx
01:26:33 <Bike> Sgeo: "this is a bad idea. but how do we do it?"
01:26:44 <Sgeo> Bike, I love it
01:26:51 <kmc> i think PHP has absolutely no culture of "What Are You Really Trying To Do"
01:27:22 <kmc> beginners often come up with unreasonable strategies for accomplishing reasonable goals
01:27:35 <Sgeo> I might declare war on Redditor cljlover
01:27:47 <kmc> #clojureteric
01:33:37 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, a number of months, I think
01:33:43 <Sgeo> Hmm, maybe since beginning of September or so?
01:33:49 <Sgeo> But I've played with it a little before that
01:33:53 <Sgeo> It's always fascinated me
01:34:30 <monqy> why are you declaring war. have you used closure for anything. why does it fascinate you. i'm fascinated.
01:34:33 <elliott> it's good that we get to hear about sgeo's adventures with clojure
01:34:41 <elliott> for the benefit of many in the channel
01:34:45 <elliott> such as sgeo, sgeo and sgeo
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01:35:02 <monqy> don't forget about me, monqy
01:35:12 <madbr> hmm, I wonder how broken Swing is
01:35:15 <elliott> monqy: i know someone who would never forget about you, monqy
01:35:26 <Phantom_Hoover> i've let the O(log_32 n) thing run its course by now haven't i
01:35:33 <elliott> monqy: do you want a hint as to who it is
01:35:50 <Sgeo> monqy, because this person is clueless about Clojure yet thinks he can teach it
01:36:03 <monqy> that was my second guess
01:36:12 <monqy> Sgeo: do you have the clues
01:36:15 <monqy> maybe you can help him!
01:36:19 <elliott> you only get one guess, monqy
01:36:36 <monqy> the peace is teaching clj lover about the thing he loves
01:37:10 <Sgeo> Oh hey maybe this person did get a clue
01:37:25 <elliott> im upset wrt how only one of monqys questions got answered
01:38:32 <monqy> Sgeo: what sort of a clue did he get. what sort of a clue did he lack. how does one truly understand clojure.
01:38:46 <monqy> these are more questions btw
01:39:11 <Sgeo> Haven't used Clojure for anything yet.
01:39:23 <Bike> perhaps you could indicate your questions with some kind of specialized marker. just put "question" after every sentence
01:39:36 <Sgeo> It fascinates me because it's a reasonably functional Lisp with a decent sized community.
01:40:09 <monqy> Bike: do you pronounce your name bike or baik
01:40:34 <Bike> yes, and I'm not sure of the distinction.
01:41:25 <HackEgo> BiKe: WeLcOmE To tHe iNtErNaTiOnAl hUb fOr eSoTeRiC PrOgRaMmInG LaNgUaGe dEsIgN AnD DePlOyMeNt! FoR MoRe iNfOrMaTiOn, ChEcK OuT OuR WiKi: HtTp://eSoLaNgS.OrG/WiKi/mAiN_PaGe. (fOr tHe oThEr kInD Of eSoTeRiCa, TrY #eSoTeRiC On iRc.dAl.nEt.)
01:41:26 <elliott> Bike: where did you come from & is it good
01:41:33 <Sgeo> monqy, after he had an utterly wrong explanation of doseq vs for, I explained it, and now he seems to be explaining it that way
01:41:52 <Bike> that's quite some capitalization; nowhere; no
01:42:00 <Bike> I browse the wiki sometimes and decided I may as well drop by.
01:42:03 <monqy> the essence of clojure enlightenment
01:42:11 <monqy> the essence of clojure
01:42:12 <Bike> and then I stayed because people were talking about math I don't understand.
01:42:14 <monqy> the essence of enlightenment
01:42:43 <elliott> i thought you were a clojure person or something
01:42:47 <elliott> at least i vaguely remember something like that in the logs
01:42:50 <elliott> but remembering things is hard
01:42:58 <Bike> I taked with sgeo about clojure a bit yesterday.
01:43:36 <Bike> talked*. we moved it to #clojure because it wasn't wanted here.
01:43:44 <Sgeo> And wasn't wanted in #lisp
01:43:49 <monqy> ugh i keep pronouncing bike [bike] in my head and it's so silly sounding i have to readjust to [baik]
01:44:09 <Bike> I don't think I've ever pronounced it out loud. do as you please
01:44:21 <elliott> monqy: what is the different. im not ipa
01:44:38 <monqy> a bug and a letter vs a thing u ride on
01:44:39 <elliott> real question is what is #lisp. what is Sgeo. what is #esoteric. what is ipa
01:44:56 <Bike> I didn't know there was a bug by this name.
01:45:25 <elliott> ok well i just read it as bike
01:46:09 <Bike> picture a bike constructed out of bees. there you go
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01:46:29 <monqy> can you ride on the bike
01:46:32 <monqy> will it hurt the bees
01:46:46 <Bike> Only one way to find out.
01:46:51 <monqy> no...........................
01:47:49 <monqy> Sgeo: btw did you answer my question about truly understanding clojure & do you truly understand clojure
01:47:55 <monqy> i'm all questions..
01:48:19 <Sgeo> I understand Clojure better than this person does.
01:48:35 <monqy> but what does that mean...........................
01:49:03 <Sgeo> It means I actually understand the distinction between doseq and for, and understand that for, doseq, and loop are not functions.
01:49:07 <Bike> what does anything mean, truly
01:49:37 <monqy> you sound like you know a lot about clojure can you teach me a lot about conjure can you teach me clojure
01:59:01 <kmc> Sgeo: what are the 5 stupidest things in the design of clojure
02:00:33 <Sgeo> In my opinion, you mean?
02:03:36 <monqy> alt. no in my opinion alt. i can't think of any more alts
02:05:25 <kmc> Sgeo: yeah
02:05:50 <kmc> and i don't mean things like "it's too awesome for this world" or "people are too stupid to learn how brilliant it is"
02:05:59 <kmc> actual bona fide flaws in the language (or its standard libraries)
02:06:29 <Sgeo> Hmm. Early on, I had some tastes that this thing was bad or that thing was bad, but my tastes have actually started to vary.
02:06:51 <monqy> does this mean clojure is perfect
02:07:03 <Bike> how about macroexpand-all sucking ass
02:07:12 <Sgeo> Bike, that was originally a contrib thing.
02:07:42 <Sgeo> But yes, the macroexpand-all mentioned on the clojuredocs website that now seems to come with Clojure should not be used under any circumstances.
02:08:55 <Sgeo> Something I thought of before Bike reminded me of that: Sets are a function, given an argument they return.... the argument if it's present in the set, and nil if it's not.
02:09:48 <Sgeo> Which means that if you often write code using sets as functions to test presence in the set, if nil is in the set and you try to test for nil's presence, you will likely wrongly assume that nil is not in the set
02:10:16 <Sgeo> The really bad thing is that using sets in this manner is somewhat encouraged on clojuredocs.org
02:13:01 <kmc> this is a common flaw in data structures like that
02:13:48 <kmc> it's a pitfall of "dynamic typing" i.e. having a single, global, ad-hoc sum type
02:14:06 <kmc> i,i "0 but true"
02:14:52 <shachaf> kmc: Well, C doesn't really have a solution either.
02:15:03 <shachaf> Other than using a pointer, I guess.
02:15:15 <Sgeo> Not difficult to imagine a dynamic language that does not assign truthiness or falisity to things other than true or false.
02:15:32 <shachaf> Unless you're thinking of a different problem from the one I'm thinking of.
02:15:34 <Bike> that doesn't matter, the same problem would come up any time you tried to get the false value.
02:15:36 <Sgeo> The if structure could just throw an error at runtime if given something other than true or false
02:15:54 <kmc> shachaf: sure, dynamic typing is neither necessary nor sufficient to have this problem, it just encourages it
02:16:21 <kmc> you can emulate Maybe in Python easily enough
02:16:25 <Bike> how does static typing help?
02:16:26 <kmc> Nothing is None and (Just x) is (x,)
02:16:57 <shachaf> Most languages, dynamically or statically typed, have pretty terrible support for "sum types".
02:17:06 <kmc> it's not really about static typing at all
02:17:08 <kmc> that's true
02:17:31 <kmc> a dynamically typed language could still encourage people to think of "Nothing vs. Just" rather than "Nothing vs. anything else"
02:17:45 <kmc> but mostly they don't
02:17:51 <Sgeo> At any rate, the documentation should encourage people to use contains? instead
02:17:53 <kmc> the (x,) idiom is fairly common in python i think
02:17:58 <shachaf> The nice thing about Maybe is that it distinguishes Nothing from Just Nothing.
02:18:14 <kmc> but Maybe# doesn't!
02:18:16 <Bike> is (None,) not distinguished from None?
02:18:41 <kmc> but the standard in python is "return None or x", not "return None or (x,)"
02:18:57 <Bike> ah, yes. but that's not really a dynamic typing thing, yeah.
02:18:58 <shachaf> Which is admittedly very convenient.
02:19:19 <kmc> statically typed languages tend to push much further in the Maybe direction, though
02:19:26 <kmc> because they don't give you this global sum type to fall back on
02:19:39 <shachaf> Except for the whole "null" thing.
02:19:41 <Bike> Couldn't they?
02:20:02 <kmc> you can have things like Haskell's Dynamic
02:20:14 <kmc> but it's still apparent in the function signature when you're using them
02:20:24 <kmc> and it's not the usual thing to do
02:20:34 <Bike> I just mean hypothetically.
02:21:05 <kmc> well, if you allow a function to return values of either of two completely unrelated types, without some kind of boxing / tagging, what is the type of that function
02:21:16 <kmc> it can return the maximally useless existential type
02:21:40 <kmc> or it can return the union of all types, if you have a subtyping system
02:21:44 <kmc> in Java you would return Object
02:21:58 <Bike> can't you just establish a union type...?
02:21:59 <kmc> so yeah, Java does sort of have this implicit global sum type
02:22:15 <kmc> Bike: then you're not falling back on the implicit global sum type
02:22:19 <Bike> other than unboxed values not being Objects I guess.
02:22:21 <kmc> you're introducing your own sum type
02:22:44 <Bike> oh, as long as I'm asking dumb questions about types. is TAPL the thing to read?
02:22:50 <kmc> TaPL is a good thing to read
02:26:23 <Sgeo> Here's another flaw, although there's a library that ... eh
02:26:43 <Sgeo> The Clojure ecosystem seems to encourage doing command-line stuff and restarting the REPL quite a bit
02:26:46 <shachaf> kmc: Wouldn't it be "nice" if in C you could use the pointer value 1 as well as the pointer value 0, for a second level of invalid pointers?
02:26:59 <shachaf> Since that whole page isn't used for anything anyway.
02:27:03 <Sgeo> Making a new project with Leiningen involves issueing command line stuff
02:27:38 <Sgeo> Adding libraries to a project involves restarting the REPL, atlhough there are things that try to work around that
02:28:35 <Sgeo> (I should note that that's Leiningen, not Clojure, but Leiningen's the only real major... thing in the Clojure space for these purposes)
02:29:12 <Bike> what does that name mean
02:29:20 <Sgeo> I have no idea
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02:37:05 <HackEgo> Mavrick: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
02:39:29 <kmc> shachaf: http://lxr.linux.no/linux+v3.6.3/include/linux/err.h#L8
02:40:56 <kmc> negative small errno value == pointer into last page of memory
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02:41:33 <madbr> elliott: sub standard gui managers?
02:41:54 <elliott> i don't know what you mean by that term but i am 99% sure that is not why linux is gross
02:42:23 <kmc> operating systems are like sausages
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02:43:12 <Bike> you don't want to see how they're made, or something like that
02:43:46 <madbr> elliott: it's just one of the things
02:44:36 <Bike> is this an in-joke
02:44:58 <monqy> ask shachaf about it
02:45:12 <elliott> it's not a joke and asking shachaf won't be helpful
02:45:26 <monqy> hey elliott should i introduce Bike to feather
02:45:36 <Bike> gosh, I don't know what to do with all this conflicting information.
02:45:38 <pikhq> Bike: It's an in-thing but not a joke.
02:45:49 <madbr> linux is used by the kind of people that use the console for as many things as possible
02:46:13 <elliott> madbr: my mother uses linux.
02:46:21 <elliott> are you sure you're not stuck in the 90s wrt how user-friendly linux is
02:46:34 <Bike> are you sure your mother isn't a console cowboy?
02:46:57 <madbr> elliott: well, that's the linuxians I know
02:47:19 <elliott> is console cowboy a thing people say
02:47:25 <elliott> petition for it to not become a thing people say
02:47:32 <elliott> that's my petition anyone want to sign it how about monqy
02:47:56 <Bike> It's a thing people who don't really exist said in the 90s (80s?).
02:47:58 <monqy> i bet you're saying that because you want to hide your identity as being/not being a console cowboy because you are ashamed
02:48:15 <madbr> a lot of ppl I know are, like, musicians, so they don't use linux
02:48:38 <Bike> are you implying puredata isn't the most beautiful interface you've ever seen
02:48:51 <elliott> i know of musicians who use linux
02:49:10 <elliott> Bike: well it is basically max/msp with less antialiasing and that is sort of popular :p
02:49:11 <madbr> bike: can you link to a good song composed with PD or supercollider? :D
02:49:18 <elliott> though i suspect pure data has less functionality
02:49:21 <elliott> i don't really know anything about it
02:50:09 <Bike> max has more library code, far as I know
02:50:09 <madbr> elliiott: what program do they use
02:50:45 <elliott> madbr: i understand there is a relative plethora of programs
02:50:55 <elliott> though certainly none were as polished as windows/os x stuff last time I checked polish is just one thing
02:51:45 <Bike> they just cat to /dev/dsp, no doubt.
02:52:00 <monqy> a console cowboy would have it no other way
02:52:10 * Sgeo reads about Typed Clojure
02:52:29 <madbr> monqy: they don't compose 4 minutes of music per hour either
02:52:34 <kmc> reference for console cowboys: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNtcWpY4YLY
02:52:43 <monqy> elliott: btw im making console cowboy a thing people say
02:52:53 <Bike> Sgeo: like typed racket, or
02:53:11 <Sgeo> Bike, some inspiration from Typed Racket, I think
02:53:24 <elliott> madbr: is this some kind of interrogation whereby i fail if i don't answer your question satisfactorily. idk i don't get this vibe, esp. the weird condensing of the plural into a "they" / missing distinction of "know" vs. "know of"
02:53:26 <elliott> people do things and stuff
02:53:32 <kmc> typed racket: anyone using a model m keyboard
02:53:33 <Sgeo> It's definitely mentioned, but I think it does other things. Typed Racket does cool things that Typed Clojure doesn't, and visa versa
02:53:44 <Sgeo> http://cloud.github.com/downloads/frenchy64/papers/paper.pdf
02:53:44 <Bike> kmc: gosh, I was starting to be afraid I was the only one who'd seen ghostwriter
02:54:03 <madbr> elliott: my point is that there are no good music programs on linux
02:54:06 <elliott> `addquote <kmc> typed racket: anyone using a model m keyboard
02:54:10 <HackEgo> 873) <kmc> typed racket: anyone using a model m keyboard
02:54:34 <kmc> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJagxe-Gvpw
02:54:46 <elliott> madbr: i find that dubious for a whole host of reasons but i suspect you would find my counterarguments uncompelling
02:55:21 <madbr> elliott: what are the good music programs for linux?
02:55:37 <elliott> kmc: i hope this video doesn't contain relevant information in the audio track which got muted in two seconds
02:55:46 <kmc> it's just that song from portal
02:56:15 <kmc> i actually like that song again but i don't blame you
02:56:28 <madbr> elliott: like, I can easily name a dozen of good programs for music on windows
02:56:52 <kmc> it was really annoying for a year when everyone was constantly referencing and quoting portal
02:57:00 <kmc> now it has died down a bit and i do enjoy me a portal reference from time to time
02:57:12 <madbr> yeah now it's ponies
02:57:14 <elliott> kmc: that's just because you're a console cowboy
02:57:16 <elliott> monqy: am i doing it correctly
02:57:18 <kmc> by the way i discovered the secret to better replay value on portal co-op:
02:57:46 <elliott> kmc: ok i am starting to suspect this was staged with this downloading a windows service pack thing
02:57:49 <Bike> bash: sudo: command not found <-- work of art
02:57:56 <kmc> yes AS ROOT
02:58:04 <pikhq> madbr: Personally, I'm using Ario and mpd.
02:58:22 <pikhq> madbr: If elliott recommends Quod Libet, beat him.
02:58:31 <kmc> elliott: yeah it might be staged, but i really have no trouble believing people this stupd / drunk do exist
02:58:36 <monqy> what makes a music program good by the way
02:58:41 <madbr> pikhq: that's a player no?
02:58:47 <pikhq> It seems awesome, until you realize it's using more RAM than my god damned web browser and actually causing me to swap.
02:59:07 <pikhq> Yeah, Quod Libet is a music player.
02:59:20 <pikhq> Which is mostly awesome, but it leaks memory worse than god damned Firefox.
02:59:26 <madbr> yeah I mean music producing programs
02:59:33 <pikhq> I have no recommendations.
02:59:37 <madbr> players are a lot easier to code :D
03:00:01 <madbr> monqy: once you have good plugin and recording systems going, ergonomy
03:00:18 <pikhq> Linux programs tend to be the result of scratch-your-own-itch...
03:00:23 <kmc> elliott: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7DKSao0ndI
03:00:27 <pikhq> And there's not that many programmer-musicians out there.
03:00:43 <pikhq> So you're not likely to get good music producing programs.
03:00:55 <elliott> "THIS IS A EXPERIMENT .. THERE IS A HACKING GOING ON BUT THE ANTI VIRUS IS FIGHTING THE HACKER .. DUMB FUCK"
03:00:59 <pikhq> Same reason why on the art end all we've got is Gimp, which also sucks.
03:01:15 <kmc> eh it's pretty decent
03:01:18 <kmc> elliott: i have no idea
03:02:04 <madbr> pikhq: yeah... which is why I use windows :o
03:02:06 <monqy> In the video above, the server is shown on the left, where the accounts of the people signed up to make calls are represented by blue bubbles. A hacker's attack comes from the right, launching small white and red bubbles that represent scans from a malicious computer program. The battle that plays out is slowed down by 25 per cent.
03:02:45 <monqy> If the hacker's scans connect with the blue bubbles, they may be able to compromise the server, gathering the passwords of account holders and ultimately letting the hacker control other people's phone activity.
03:02:45 <elliott> If you missed last week's "Born to be viral" video, watch a fireproof suit as it resists 1000˚C flames.
03:02:48 <monqy> To protect itself against the attack, the server releases green honeypots: disguised data released to trap the intruding scans. But the hacker then increases the number of scans in an attempt to overwhelm the honeypots. In the end, the server wins the battle.
03:03:12 <Bike> so what does the middle space represent
03:03:17 <Bike> why is there gravity
03:03:38 <monqy> the gravity represents the gravity of the situation
03:03:43 <kmc> hackers hate gravity
03:03:53 <kmc> that's why in neuromancer they had to go into space to hack
03:03:53 <Bike> yeah it does seem pretty serious, I mean look at all those honeypots.
03:03:58 <kmc> and meet up with the space rastafarians
03:04:14 <elliott> kmc: you know things about kernel right
03:06:08 <monqy> i wonder if i ever knew things about kernel though
03:06:41 <elliott> monqy: maybe you can learn from Sgeo
03:07:20 <monqy> sgeo teach me if i ever knew things about kernel please
03:07:40 <elliott> kmc: anyway why doesn't thingy
03:07:44 <Sgeo> Grep the logs?
03:08:26 <shachaf> kmc: I know about that from having called mmap with ptrace.
03:09:10 <shachaf> It'll always return a page-aligned pointer, anyway, so it works unless you have way too many errnos.
03:09:22 <kmc> ETOOMANYERRNOS
03:10:20 <kmc> i need a clever halloween costume which is also extremely low effort
03:12:45 <elliott> that is kmc's natural state though
03:12:55 <elliott> kmc: how about console cowboy
03:12:58 <elliott> i hear it's the hip new thing
03:13:49 <kmc> maybe i could boost the VT220 from SIPB
03:15:54 <shachaf> elliott: You should help with rwbarton's lazy map thing!
03:16:41 <elliott> shachaf: those unsafeCoerces look unjustifiable
03:17:05 <shachaf> elliott: You don't think you can coerce between a strict boxed field and an unstrict boxed field?
03:17:19 <shachaf> The point of this is to figure out whether you can do that.
03:17:57 <kmc> elliott: that reminds me of Dance Dance Immolation
03:18:19 <kmc> which is like Dance Dance Revolution except that it shoots flames at you when you miss a step
03:18:32 <kmc> you wear a fireproof suit
03:18:40 <kmc> it was a thing at Burning Man and elsewhere
03:19:48 <elliott> kmc: this sounds of questionable safety
03:20:18 <kmc> safety third!
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03:41:05 <Sgeo> Is firewalking unsafe?
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03:59:57 <elliott> kmc: wasn't i going to ask you about kernel
04:18:48 <elliott> kmc: ok so what if like hygenic kernel
04:21:14 <monqy> hygenic kernel????
04:22:21 <monqy> shachaf calm down cool it chill
04:22:21 <elliott> kmc: i guess i am too tired to explain this properly
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04:39:43 <shachaf> "The type named NIL is sometimes confused with the type named NULL, which has one value, namely the symbol NIL itself."
04:40:24 <Bike> bonus: NIL is also in the symbol type.
04:43:59 <Bike> so you have union(symbol,sequence)>nil, I suppose
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04:47:37 <shachaf> ion: I heard it's snowy in Finland.
04:47:58 <ion> It’s all lies.
04:48:26 <shachaf> monqy: I heard it's not snowy in California.
04:48:54 <ion> I already said it’s *all* lies.
04:49:29 <monqy> we get snow in some places but not here
05:16:47 <shachaf> kmc: rot13 "unfunpuns" = "hashachaf"
05:21:25 <quintopia> had no idea that's where that came from
05:22:10 <quintopia> that your nick was a rot13 of funpuns
05:22:23 <shachaf> That's not where the words "fun" and "puns" came from.
05:22:32 <shachaf> They're actually pretty old words.
05:22:53 <quintopia> are you sure you didnt invent those words?
05:23:11 <shachaf> Maybe my parents invented them, though.
05:51:06 <Sgeo> I just forked on GitHub solely to assist me in debugging something
05:52:23 <pikhq> Clearly all IRC nicks are rot13 of something.
05:52:38 <pikhq> See? Gregor's real name is Tertbe. Clearly.
05:53:12 <shachaf> Tertbe nimble tertbe quick.
05:57:07 <pikhq> Now, see, elliott is definitely Welsh.
05:58:10 <Bike> that's at least double welsh
05:58:35 <pikhq> He must be born of man and sheep.
06:27:43 <Sgeo> monqy, did you see the update?
06:28:06 <shachaf> monqy: did you see Sgeo telling you did you see the update?
06:28:19 <monqy> shachaf: what sgeo
06:29:31 <shachaf> no, this one (psst sgeo!!!!!!!!):
06:30:52 <fizzie> "Tertbe Richards" does have a nice ring to it.
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10:13:57 <shachaf> ion: Any conclusion on those lens slides?
10:14:18 <ion> Which ones?
10:15:15 <ion> Edwarde Kmette’s talke?
10:15:48 <ion> I’d really need to see the talk, not the slides alone.
10:17:24 <shachaf> ion: So if Functor->Lens and Applicative->Traversal, what sort of thing would Monad be?
10:17:53 <ion> Good question. I haven’t thought about that.
10:18:11 <ion> “In practice, it is impossible to specify a complete state for any realistic robot system. A complete state includes not just all aspects of the environment that may have an impact on the future, but also the robot itself, the content of its computer memory, the brain dumps of surrounding people, etc. Some of those are hard to obtain.” –Probabilistic Robotics
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11:20:55 <shachaf> ion: type Fold a c = (Gettable f, Applicative f) => (c -> f c) -> a -> f a
11:21:23 <shachaf> Er, I missed the forall f.
11:21:42 <shachaf> It really means type Fold a c = forall m. Monoid m => (c -> Const m c) -> a -> Const m a
11:28:20 <shachaf> Apparently this is what LYAH says about instance Monad (r ->):
11:28:29 <shachaf> The implementation for >>= seems a bit cryptic, but it's really not all that. When we use >>= to feed a monadic value to a function, the result is always a monadic value. So in this case, when we feed a function to another function, the result is a function as well. That's why the result starts off as a lambda. All of the implementations of >>= so far always somehow isolated the result from the monadic value and then applied the function f to ...
11:28:35 <shachaf> ... that result. The same thing happens here. To get the result from a function, we have to apply it to something, which is why we do (h w) here to get the result from the function and then we apply f to that. f returns a monadic value, which is a function in our case, so we apply it to w as well.
11:28:41 <shachaf> No wonder people get confused.
11:29:35 <Jafet> Just pretending that instance is magical has always worked for me
11:32:05 <nortti> that must be the best computer ever: http://www.john-ward.org.uk/personal/john/computers/html/rocket.html
11:32:21 <nortti> it has a pizza oven and kitchen sink included
11:34:00 <Jafet> Embedded pizza oven? That can't be good
11:36:24 <shachaf> My computer doesn't have a pizza oven, although it occasionally feels like one.
11:36:38 <Jafet> (For the user's BMI)
11:38:07 <nortti> shachaf: but does your computer include a kitchen sink?
11:38:50 <Jafet> I tried before. They aren't very good at it.
11:39:58 <nortti> who are not very good at what?
11:40:20 <Jafet> Most computers are pretty bad sinks
11:41:00 <shachaf> nortti: Would a heat sink count?
11:41:07 <shachaf> I once had a computer with ActiveSync.
11:42:37 <fizzie> My former computer had a leftover 5.25" device hole in the front panel, above the optical disc drive. I used it a few times to warm up some food.
11:42:59 <shachaf> ion: ("hello","there")^.both -- "hellothere"
11:43:00 <fizzie> (The disc drive is useful because then things put in the hole don't fall to the bottom of the case.)
11:43:09 <nortti> I usually filled a 5.25" slot with 5" floppy drive
11:44:30 <shachaf> ion: I guess I shouldn't be surprised by that.
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11:45:29 <HackEgo> NoRtTi: WeLcOmE To tHe iNtErNaTiOnAl hUb fOr eSoTeRiC PrOgRaMmInG LaNgUaGe dEsIgN AnD DePlOyMeNt! FoR MoRe iNfOrMaTiOn, ChEcK OuT OuR WiKi: HtTp://eSoLaNgS.OrG/WiKi/mAiN_PaGe. (fOr tHe oThEr kInD Of eSoTeRiCa, TrY #eSoTeRiC On iRc.dAl.nEt.)
11:46:14 <alluazad> esoteric is programming language ?
11:51:52 <nortti> alluazad: no. esoteric programing languages form a group of programming languages
11:52:00 <nortti> shachaf: why did you welcome me=
11:52:17 <HackEgo> ALLUAZAD: WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE DESIGN AND DEPLOYMENT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: HTTP://ESOLANGS.ORG/WIKI/MAIN_PAGE. (FOR THE OTHER KIND OF ESOTERICA, TRY #ESOTERIC ON IRC.DAL.NET.)
11:52:37 <shachaf> nortti: I thought you ought to feel welcome.
11:52:54 <nortti> why did you use `WeLcOmE?
11:53:03 <alluazad> when i click d link it returns 404
11:53:12 <shachaf> tswett: I thought you should feel WeLcOmEd.
11:53:20 <HackEgo> alluazad: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
11:53:37 <nortti> `run cat `which WELCOME`
11:53:41 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ welcome "$@" | perl -ne 'print uc($_)'
11:54:17 <shachaf> @tell monqy hi!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! monqy
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11:54:38 <nortti> `echo #echo hi shachaf
11:54:58 <nortti> #echo `echo hi shachaf
11:55:26 <alluazad> There is currently no text in this page. You can search for this page title in other pages, search the related logs, or edit this page.
11:55:38 <ion> Loading package distributive-0.2.2 ... [1] 9281 segmentation fault ghci
11:56:07 <ion> Huh, it seems like disk corruption.
11:56:12 <nortti> alluazad: that is on http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page ?
11:56:18 <shachaf> ion: Maybe it's RAM corruption.
11:56:27 <alluazad> There is currently no text in this page. You can search for this page title in other pages, search the related logs, or edit this page.
11:56:46 <nortti> alluazad: are you sure the url has no "." in it?
11:57:06 <ion> Perhaps my SSD is dying or btrfs/dmcrypt is buggy. Or perhaps a RAM bit flip happened when writing to the disk.
11:57:12 <ion> [13577.381731] btrfs no csum found for inode 2648044 start 0
11:57:15 <ion> [13577.382208] btrfs csum failed ino 2648044 off 0 csum 3580763835 private 0
11:57:33 <shachaf> You deserve everything you got.
11:58:13 <Jafet> Is btrfs still marked experimental?
11:58:17 <alluazad> so you people create prog languages right
11:58:47 <nortti> sometimes when we are bored
11:59:18 <nortti> my favorite esoteric language is java created by Gregor
11:59:21 <Jafet> Well, I guess experimental linux features can fail, but non-experimental ones will fail
11:59:34 <ion> shachaf: Well, it might have not been btrfs’ fault, and if that is the case, most other filesystems wouldn’t even have noticed the corruption.
12:01:17 <alluazad> which one is d easiest prog language to learn ?
12:01:45 <Jafet> I started with C++.
12:06:36 <ion> Something other than C++.
12:07:45 <alluazad> once i tried to learn it by book
12:08:13 <alluazad> I learned some visual basic at school :D
12:09:25 <alluazad> man , there are a lot of esoteric langs :O
12:09:33 <ion> Learn Haskell.
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12:10:31 <alluazad> Haskell is not listed here http://esolangs.org/wiki/Language_list
12:10:50 <Arc_Koen> alluazad: Haskell is not esoteric
12:11:04 <ion> Haskell’s not the easiest language to learn. Perhaps LOGO or something. :-P
12:11:09 <ion> But i like Haskell a lot.
12:11:35 <alluazad> How can u guys learn more than one prog langs ?
12:11:48 <ion> No, you’re only allowed to learn one.
12:12:03 <shachaf> ion: Unless you get the Advanced Programmer license.
12:12:04 <ion> Learning more languages will make you better in the ones you already know.
12:12:11 <shachaf> But nobody can afford those anymore.
12:13:30 <Arc_Koen> only for those who have already paid!
12:14:03 <alluazad> Then how can one make freewares ?
12:14:26 <Arc_Koen> alluazad: I think they're joking
12:15:32 <Arc_Koen> almost all languages are free - some domain specific languages aren't, but you don't have to use those!
12:15:57 <alluazad> domain specific means OS specific right ?
12:16:32 <Arc_Koen> no, I was thinking more about languages that have been made for one field preciasely, for instance biology, or whatever
12:16:50 <Jafet> David cough Turner cough
12:17:15 <alluazad> err , aren't we talking about programming langs ?
12:20:34 <alluazad> i got a pdf book for learning python
12:20:40 <Jafet> Even biologists are slowly evolving to use computers.
12:22:07 <Jafet> Only biologists bother with pythons.
12:23:50 <Jafet> Well, it's a bit constricting, but much better than ASP.
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12:53:42 <FreeFull> I find that learning more languages actually makes things easier for me
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14:04:30 <Jafet> You'd think so, right.
14:09:14 <boily> when you dabble into metaclasses and magic and whatnot, python can be an esolang.
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14:41:39 <FreeFull> There is an IRC client written in pure bash. No externals
14:42:37 <FreeFull> There is more than one IRC client written in pure bash
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15:19:46 <Arc_Koen> FreeFull: is there one is that weirdly capitalized batch esolang?
15:23:48 <ion> I accidentally the physics. http://youtu.be/UaUR6u8nHoM
15:24:55 <mroman> Sentence does not compute.
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16:38:01 <elliott> pikhq: Is it worth switchingt o one of the non-gzip kernel compression methods these days?
16:38:26 <pikhq> elliott: Largely irrelevant for desktop use.
16:38:42 <pikhq> You might get a slightly faster boot switching to lzo?
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16:48:40 <mroman> I did not know x86 had "mask registers"
16:48:47 <mroman> I don't even know what they're for
16:50:08 <olsner> what's a mask register?
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16:51:00 <FreeFull> x86 uses them for controlling interrupts
16:51:43 <mroman> Are they related to PIC?
16:52:57 <FreeFull> The concept of a mask register itself isn't specific to interrupts
16:53:20 <FreeFull> PICs typically have an interrupt mask register
16:53:41 <FreeFull> Which gets used to specify which interrupts should be ignored
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17:10:22 <ion> Windows 8: It's Almost Not Terrible http://youtu.be/X0fsyb-ttcw
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18:43:23 <kmc> http://motif.ics.com/article/news motif is now free software!
18:43:35 <kmc> party like it's 1992
18:45:57 <elliott> https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=151494 motif innovation
18:46:57 <olsner> oh noes, they should've killed it when they still had a chance to do it
18:47:04 <olsner> now anyone can fork and it will never die
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18:53:11 <Sgeo> What's wrong with Motif?
18:53:30 <Sgeo> I mean, I'm under the impression that appearance-wise, people don't like the appearance as a matter of taste
18:53:33 <Sgeo> But anything else?
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19:23:06 <ion> I was going to ask zzo38 whether he uses Motif, but he isn’t online.
19:23:56 <nortti> ion: he updated from plain Xt some time ago
19:25:23 <nortti> yes. he runs x11 on windows
19:26:35 <nortti> actually it is win3.11 running on desqview/x
19:29:35 <FreeFull> Why would you use desqview/x instead of xming?
19:30:49 <kmc> why would you use gopher instead of http
19:31:08 <nortti> FreeFull: desqview/x runs under dos
19:31:34 <nortti> FreeFull: and then windows runs as a x11 app
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19:32:05 <nortti> FreeFull: because it is awesome
19:32:15 <olsner> about DESQview/X: "This X-windowing system is X11R5 compatible ..." :D
19:32:24 <olsner> oh well, at least it's X11
19:33:20 <nortti> olsner: want to help me porting X10R4 software to X11?
19:36:31 <fizzie> olsner: At least it's X, not W.
19:37:02 <fizzie> (Come to think of it: does Wayland mean a step back? Shouldn't it be, I don't know, Yayland or something.)
19:37:24 <fizzie> Yayland leads naturally to Zanyland.
19:37:52 <fizzie> I think I've played Zany Golf.
19:38:16 <fizzie> http://www.racketboy.com/retro/zanygolf-1.jpg yes that looks very familiar.
19:38:32 <olsner> or maybe restart at Ayeland
19:38:35 <fizzie> I remember it being lots of funtimes, except when it got hard near the end.
19:38:54 <olsner> and the next version can be Baylando
19:39:05 <fizzie> It had all those fancy animated things that required timing. That burger bounces up and down, and there was a windmill.
19:39:40 <fizzie> "Zany Golf featured a stunning 3D isometric viewpoint --" maybe it doesn't quite qualify as "stunning" any more. (Also I played the PC version.)
19:40:16 <fizzie> Oh, and that candle, it melted.
19:40:58 <olsner> descriptions of graphics features should be timestamped
19:42:48 <fizzie> http://amiga.lychesis.net/year/1988/ZanyGolf_Level1_Map.html seems to have level maps all the way up to level 9.
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19:48:44 <nortti> but what comes after zayland? åayland?
19:48:54 <ion> > succ 'z'
19:49:41 <nortti> actually that maps to { in swedish-finnish 7bit charmap. what was it called
19:50:31 <nortti> olsner: { is lowercase [
19:51:04 <nortti> that is still part of some irc servers
19:51:45 <olsner> > (toLower &&& toUpper) '['
19:53:51 <fizzie> `run echo '{ayland' | iconv -f iso646-fi -t utf-8
19:55:39 <fizzie> For some reason the letter order of ISO/IEC 646 FI / SFS 4017 is ...ZÄÖÅ even though the alphabet always puts it ...ZÅÄÖ.
19:56:27 <fizzie> Norwegians and danes both have Æ Ø Å in the same, don't know how their "official alphabet" goes.
19:56:41 <fizzie> "The same" meaning their national variants of ISO646.
19:57:37 <olsner> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danish_and_Norwegian_alphabet
19:57:53 <fizzie> Perhaps it's their fault, then.
20:00:03 <olsner> norwegian and danish keyboards apparently have the opposite placement for æ and ø
20:00:10 <fizzie> I noticed that before.
20:00:21 <fizzie> (There seems to be an "extended Swedish for names" variant that adds é/É and ü/Ü but loses ASCII `/@ and ~/^, respectively.)
20:01:30 <olsner> é is common in swedish names for some reason, though we don't really use it at all in words
20:02:53 <fizzie> olsner: The Danish keyboard also has our §/½ (unshifted, shifted) key in the same place (left of 1), except reversing the two characters.
20:03:17 <olsner> which is stupid because no-one uses either of those characters
20:03:19 <fizzie> (Norwegians apparently have a |/§ there.)
20:03:52 <fizzie> (They don't seem to have anything as the third character of <> where our | is.)
20:04:31 <fizzie> No-one really uses ¤ either, but that's still wasting space as shift-4 too.
20:05:11 <olsner> ah, that one, I don't even know what it is... a sun?
20:05:29 <fizzie> It's the currency sign.
20:05:44 <fizzie> The generic one, that is.
20:06:08 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Currency_(typography) -- really useful.
20:06:35 <fizzie> (Latin-9 / ISO-8859-15 replaces it with the euro sign €, IIRC.)
20:08:34 <olsner> heh, in soviet basic ¤ was used instead of $ as the string variable suffix
20:08:48 <fizzie> No capitalist dollars there!
20:09:38 <fizzie> Apparently ISO-646-FI also replaces $ with ¤.
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20:12:42 <fizzie> `run echo \!'"#$%&'\''()*+,-./:;<=>?@[\]^_`{|}~' | iconv -f iso646-fi -t utf-8 # that's the all of nonalphanumeric printable ASCII
20:12:45 <HackEgo> !"#¤%&'()*+,-./:;<=>?@ÄÖÅ^_`äöå‾
20:13:26 <fizzie> Not too many changes; $ turns into ¤, there's the äöå thing, and ~ goes to the ever-popular overline.
20:15:59 <fizzie> There's enough left to write digraphs for []{} and trigraphs for \|~.
20:17:51 <fizzie> ??-(a ??! b), aka a nor b.
20:18:47 <fizzie> And, of course, the "Hello, world!??/" string literal.
20:18:58 <kmc> a confused hello
20:19:02 <fizzie> Uh, "Hello, world!??/n", I mean.
20:20:11 <olsner> I love how that makes it look like you flipped the backslash by accident
20:20:34 <fizzie> The Standard's example of trigraphs is the beautiful ??=define arraycheck(a, b) a??(b??) ??!??! b??(a??)
20:20:48 <nortti> what does "Hello, world!??/n" do?
20:20:58 <fizzie> It's just "Hello, world!\n".
20:21:06 <olsner> if I wrote the first part of that line I would also go ??!??!
20:23:31 <kmc> chromium is showing the latency of this http request as "0.0 days"
20:23:33 <kmc> thanks chromium
20:23:58 <fizzie> `run echo -e '??=include <stdio.h> \n int main(void) ??< printf("Hello, world!??/n"); ??>' | gcc -std=c99 -x c - -o /tmp/c && /tmp/c; rm /tmp/c
20:24:40 <fizzie> Sadly, the gnu90/gnu99 standards turn trigraphs off. :(
20:25:38 <nortti> that would be awesome obfuscation for some c programs
20:26:13 <fizzie> The other example from the Standard is printf("Eh???/n");.
20:26:38 <fizzie> (That turns into printf("Eh?\n"); since only ?s that actually begin a trigraph are replaced.)
20:27:25 <olsner> how do you print ??/ then?
20:27:39 <ion> All that syntactic noise for the benefit of parsers instead of humans, but then have rules like that that are unnecessarily difficult to parse? :-)
20:27:44 <fizzie> olsner: printf("??""/"); for example.
20:28:14 <olsner> fizzie: aah, that's a nice workaround
20:28:26 <fizzie> Or "?""?/" maybe, according to taste.
20:29:12 <fizzie> I wonder if somebody, somewhere has entered a C channel asking "why do I get two ?s less" after mistaking the slant of character escapes and writing "huh?????/n".
20:32:20 <olsner> is it common for compilers to actually enable trigraphs by default?
20:33:36 <fizzie> Probably not, but a nonzero number of places do recommend something like "-std=c99 -pedantic" as standard flags.
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20:42:28 <fizzie> olsner: Also, if you happen to be writing C++, you could write it "?\?/" -- they include a \? escape for plain ? that I can't immediately figure out any other reason for than trigraph-breaking. (Or if you don't have \ in your character set, you'd write ??/ as "???/?/", naturally.)
20:42:55 <olsner> trigraph breaking using trigraphs, I like it
20:44:51 <elliott> fizzie: Have you played Frog Fractions? You seem like the kind of person who might have.
20:46:11 <shachaf> elliott: So if Functor->Lens and Applicative->Traversal, Monad->?
20:46:21 <fizzie> `run echo -e '??=include <iostream> \n int main(void) ??< std::cout << "???/?/??/n"; ??>' | gcc -std=c++98 -x c++ - -o /tmp/c -lstdc++ && /tmp/c; rm /tmp/c
20:46:36 <fizzie> (Why do I need -lstdc++ with -x c++ there?)
20:46:48 <olsner> because you're linking with gcc
20:46:48 <zzo38> shachaf: What is this for? Is that something with van Laarhoven lenses?
20:46:51 <elliott> shachaf: Why don't you ask edwardk?
20:46:58 <shachaf> elliott: He's on vacation.
20:47:24 <shachaf> Maybe I should ask van Laarhoven. But what does he know?
20:47:32 <olsner> vacation? that just means he should have all the time in the world to answer questions on irc
20:47:37 <zzo38> You could try anyways
20:47:40 <shachaf> elliott: Isn't it nifty how you can just use a lens as a "mapM"?
20:48:00 <fizzie> elliott: I have not. But it sounds... different.
20:48:36 <elliott> fizzie: I don't know how long it is, but what I've played so far I highly recommend.
20:49:19 <shachaf> kmc: Have you seen all the fancy lens things?
20:49:25 <shachaf> They're pretty neat once you figure them out.
20:50:11 <kmc> not recently
20:50:54 <elliott> fizzie: At least, I haven't played a better point-and-click bullet hell RPG text adventure recently.
20:54:20 <shachaf> kmc: It gives me some faith in the type class Traversable!
20:54:31 <shachaf> Which I was previously very suspicious of.
20:54:36 <elliott> fizzie: Also provides quote of the day: "This is space. Machines aren't "on" and "off" here; machines just are."
20:54:37 <shachaf> I'm still somewhat suspicious of it.
20:54:48 <elliott> shachaf: OK, I have a question in turn.
20:54:50 <shachaf> Well, it decides an arbitrary order.
20:54:59 <shachaf> It's Foldable that I'm suspicious of, really.
20:55:27 <shachaf> What's something which is Foldable but not Traversable, anyway?
20:55:37 <elliott> shachaf: What happens if you use... Align??? (As per https://github.com/isomorphism/these/blob/master/Data/Align.hs.)
20:55:51 <elliott> Align is sort of like Applicative.
20:56:15 <shachaf> How do you catch Align in the Sahara Desert?
20:56:43 <shachaf> elliott: Align is like zip except These?
20:56:59 <shachaf> elliott: Sounds like the devil, if you ask me.
20:57:29 <elliott> shachaf: Look at Crosswalk, too.
20:57:33 <elliott> shachaf: Crosswalk is like Traversable.
20:57:38 <elliott> But instead of Applicative it uses Align.
20:57:47 <elliott> IIRC Crosswalk is actually useful.
20:58:01 <elliott> Wow, I actually defined Bicrosswalk.
20:58:31 <shachaf> kmc: So a Traversal is "like a lens", except for zero-or-more values instead of exactly one value.
20:58:52 <shachaf> You get that by choosing an Applicative constraint instead of a Functor constraint, so you get pure and <*>
20:58:56 <elliott> shachaf: http://pchiusano.blogspot.co.uk/2010/06/alignable-functors-typeclass-for-zippy.html
20:59:08 <elliott> "If you have an Alignable for some f, you can lift Iteratee, Reducer and various other Reducer-like objects to f. Monoids and groups can also be lifted to Alignable. And the version of traverse based on Alignable is more appropriate for some applications."
20:59:24 <elliott> ISTR edwardk dislikes Alignable because he can't think of a good name for it.
20:59:33 <elliott> Oh, he actually comments there.
21:00:00 <zzo38> What if you use something which is not a Functor?
21:00:26 <shachaf> zzo38: I don't know, man! The world is waiting!
21:00:49 <shachaf> elliott: Hmm, if you use (,), do you get both reading and writing?
21:01:18 <zzo38> Such as, instead of Applicative or Monad or Functor, try Plus or Contravariant.
21:01:56 <elliott> shachaf: Use (,) for what?
21:02:12 <shachaf> elliott: Instead of Const or Identity.
21:04:10 -!- derwaffenss has joined.
21:05:20 <HackEgo> zzo38: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
21:05:52 <HackEgo> ZzO38: wElCoMe tO ThE InTeRnAtIoNaL HuB FoR EsOtErIc pRoGrAmMiNg lAnGuAgE DeSiGn aNd dEpLoYmEnT! fOr mOrE InFoRmAtIoN, cHeCk oUt oUr wIkI: hTtP://EsOlAnGs.oRg/wIkI/MaIn_pAgE. (FoR ThE OtHeR KiNd oF EsOtErIcA, tRy #EsOtErIc oN IrC.DaL.NeT.)
21:06:03 <zzo38> derwaffenss: We have a lot of bots in here actually
21:06:42 <shachaf> Every last one of us is a bot.
21:07:00 <zzo38> That is what they want you to think!
21:07:16 <nortti> derwaffenss: at least EgoBot HackEgo fungot lambdabot oonbotti
21:07:17 <fungot> nortti: which is rather detrimental to my presence on irc. its annoying. not fascinating. like i said:)) sure, but if you have
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21:12:44 <olsner> fungot is the game of the year?
21:12:44 <fungot> olsner: i mean from finland)
21:13:13 <nortti> fungot: you mean what from finland?
21:13:13 <fungot> nortti: what's the rational for that? what would that library be like? i've always wondered what the heck i remember it
21:15:29 <olsner> fungot: when will macgyver realize that the gas station attendant with the german accent is a baddie?
21:15:30 <fungot> olsner: isn't srfi 7 nonsense?! what unmitigated fnord!"? so that error reporting gives correct car/ cdr
21:16:37 <zzo38> I try to lead the chancellor into this castle I don't even know where he is, I also need to find and rescue the king, I need to figure out a plan. I can psychically contact the chancellor but he has no obligation to believe what I say or to answer my questions truthfully. I wonder if scrying is available, we can scry the chancellor or the king, if that somehow would help?
21:18:09 <zzo38> A map of this castle might also help.
21:18:12 <nortti> heh: http://www.devttys0.com/2012/10/jailbreaking-the-neotv/
21:18:15 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
21:22:58 <olsner> what does "moi mukkulat" mean?
21:24:26 <nortti> "moi mukulat" means "hi potato corms" I think
21:24:37 <olsner> disregard spelling obviously
21:25:07 <nortti> but "mukula" can refer to a kid so it might be "hi kids"
21:28:01 <olsner> so it should've been "moi mukula" then? or is the -t a plural suffix?
21:28:48 <nortti> "moi mukula" is either "hi potato corm" or "hi kid"
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21:30:08 <olsner> looked like it was you
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21:30:48 <shachaf> ais523: You should kick me for flooding.
21:30:58 <ion> My cat learned about the Compose key.
21:31:16 <lambdabot> ais523: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
21:31:19 <lambdabot> elliott said 1d 2h 39m 55s ago: tavern isn't run by the devs
21:31:25 <ais523> elliott: well they created it
21:31:52 <ion> shachaf: Make sure to ion: stop.
21:33:17 <elliott> ais523: it was started by danr and is hosted on CDO by Napkin, who I think might have a commit bit but is more the CDO admin
21:33:31 <elliott> in fact most of the devs don't even have mod/admin access to it
21:33:51 <ais523> I thought it was CDO who did it
21:34:26 <elliott> Napkin handles maintaining the actual installation AIUI but that's not really "the devs" imo :p
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21:44:59 <ion> shachaf: How do you get the State RealWorld String out of an IO String?
21:46:19 -!- derwaffenss has left.
22:07:56 <shachaf> ion: You mean the State# RealWorld -> (# State# RealWorld, String #) ?
22:08:41 -!- epicmonkey has joined.
22:16:40 <Sgeo> WTF I can't post Web Archive links on Facebook?
22:17:11 <Sgeo> "The content you're trying to share includes a link that's been blocked for being spammy or unsafe:
22:17:11 <Sgeo> http://web.archive.org/web
22:17:11 <Sgeo> For more information, visit the Help Center. If you think you're seeing this by mistake, please let us know."
22:18:00 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined.
22:21:23 <Arc_Koen> this Isolated language is reaaaaally weird
22:21:40 <Arc_Koen> but there seem to be no obvious way for one cell to "communicate" with another
22:21:51 <Bike> what does that mean
22:22:35 <Arc_Koen> tape based means its only means to store information is an array [x0; x1; x2; ...]
22:22:54 <Bike> like a turing machine
22:23:41 <Arc_Koen> but here, a cell's content can only be directly affected by: its own content, the data pointer, the instruction pointer, and input
22:24:00 <nortti> my webserver log: "1.234.4.16 Requested nortti.dy.fi/w00tw00t.at.blackhats.romanian.anti-sec:)"
22:24:06 <Arc_Koen> and the only means of "branching" are to directly modify the instruction pointer
22:24:22 <Arc_Koen> nortti: I had a very important question about a language you made but I don't remember which
22:24:33 <nortti> Arc_Koen: what is it like?
22:24:57 <Arc_Koen> (what's your user name again?)
22:26:24 <Arc_Koen> there was something I did not understand about its specifications
22:29:08 <Arc_Koen> but I do remember it bothered me a lot!
22:29:57 <nortti> if you remember it hilight me
22:32:57 <nortti> I actually designed it in boring math classes
22:37:04 <Arc_Koen> well when I discovered it it sounded very interesting and I wanted to implement it right away
22:37:31 <Arc_Koen> and then I realized it was not at all what I expected it to be
22:37:46 <Arc_Koen> and then I realized I didn't know what I expected it to be
22:39:06 <Arc_Koen> well somehow I thought the stack was gonna support the lambda calculus the same way stacks usually support reverse-notation mathematics
22:40:52 <Bike> well, stack languages look like rpn, in that 4 6 + usually ends up with 10?
22:41:29 <nortti> I mean like how would it support lambda calculus like rpn?
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22:42:33 <nortti> reverse polish lambda?
22:45:57 <Bike> you could do like Joy and just not have variables at all :)
22:46:17 <nortti> Bike: that would be underload
22:46:30 <Bike> that works too
22:47:18 <nortti> hmm. this could be interesting: \x.\y.x ==> 1\\
22:49:24 <elliott> underload is basically a joy tarpit, so
22:49:35 <elliott> albeit without ais523 realising it would be
23:04:20 <Arc_Koen> nortti: well I eventually realized I did not know what it would mean :)
23:05:11 <nortti> "There are two major products that come out of Berkeley: LSD and UNIX. We don't believe this to be a coincidence." - Jeremy S. Anderson
23:05:30 <kmc> often "BSD and LSD"
23:05:41 <nortti> as 2.11BSD user I agree-
23:05:54 <kmc> though LSD was invented in Basel
23:07:38 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
23:07:55 <kmc> and unix in... new jersey?
23:09:44 <Gregor> pikhq: I was just surprised that Go is PICing interface dispatch because… well, there is no VM. Seems like it would be difficult to do, even from the stupid bookkeeping perspective of “now either my code has to be writable or I have to make sure this data always lives in cache”
23:10:34 <kmc> writable code everywhere! what could go wrong
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23:15:28 <Sgeo> PICing interface dispatch?
23:32:33 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
23:42:16 <Gregor> Sgeo: Go implements interface method dispatch through PICs. I had always wondered how it handled this (its interfaces are structural, its types fairly implicit, so it can't make vtables), so I asked Rob Pike.
23:42:42 <Sgeo> What's a PIC? Last time I saw that term, it was in the context of COBOL
23:43:09 <Gregor> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inline_cache
23:44:45 <Gregor> (Typically used by virtual machines, not compiled languages)
23:45:16 <Gregor> (Bearing in mind that here I mean “compiled languages” in a sense that excludes, e.g., Java)
23:52:32 <Sgeo> Oh, P as in polymorphic?
23:53:42 <FreeFull> Can't you compile Java if you really want to
23:53:52 <Bike> i feel so illiterate, for thinking of "position independent code"
23:54:26 <FreeFull> I know the GJC can compile Java and Java bytecode to native code
23:55:01 <FreeFull> When I see PIC, I think Programmable Interrupt Controller :)
23:55:12 <Sgeo> Does Clojure work on GJC? Tried it recently, it didn't seem to
23:55:28 <FreeFull> I haven't actually ever used GJC
23:55:30 <Sgeo> When I see PIC, I think COBOL
23:56:03 <FreeFull> GJC doesn't have any news from after 2009 on its website
23:56:04 <Sgeo> "Rather than using types, as these languages do, COBOL uses a kind of "declaration by example" strategy. The programmer provides the system with an example, or template, or PICture of the storage required for the data-item."
23:57:37 <Bike> is that like some strange proto-prototype OO system
23:58:31 <Sgeo> PIC S9999V9999
23:58:53 <Sgeo> That is the PICTURE clause for a signed number with 4 digits before the implied decimal point and 4 digits after
23:59:38 <Bike> 9 = decimal digit?
23:59:50 <Sgeo> http://www.csis.ul.ie/cobol/course/DataDeclaration.htm