00:04:43 -!- Frooxius has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 00:15:40 -!- Arc_Koen has quit (Quit: Arc_Koen). 00:22:00 -!- MoALTz_ has joined. 00:25:06 -!- MoALTz has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 00:35:54 http://phpmanualmasterpieces.tumblr.com/post/33023415508/when-does-one-byte-equal-four-kilobytes 00:38:51 tswett: isn't w ^(3) w just epsilon_omega? 00:39:47 I don't know. 01:11:54 -!- Nisstyre has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 01:22:47 Oh sweet Jesus don't use this in real code 01:22:50 http://briancarper.net/blog/449/clojure-reader-macros 01:23:06 hi 01:24:09 kmc, http://phpmanualmasterpieces.tumblr.com/post/33239208258/drop-the-ball 01:24:11 thank you 01:24:39 for allowing me to know that someone thought this was a good idea 01:24:58 do you want to see a so-bad-it's-good blog in return 01:25:11 sure 01:25:58 http://www.matthewdaocs.co.uk/blog/2012/10/21/Life-Lessons-Stage-2-12.aspx 01:26:33 Sgeo: "this is a bad idea. but how do we do it?" 01:26:44 Bike, I love it 01:26:51 i think PHP has absolutely no culture of "What Are You Really Trying To Do" 01:27:22 beginners often come up with unreasonable strategies for accomplishing reasonable goals 01:27:35 I might declare war on Redditor cljlover 01:27:47 #clojureteric 01:28:04 -teric? 01:28:06 #phpteric? 01:28:51 wow Sgeo 01:28:58 how long have you been with clojure now 01:33:14 Sgeo: hi??? 01:33:30 Hi monqy 01:33:37 Phantom_Hoover, a number of months, I think 01:33:43 Hmm, maybe since beginning of September or so? 01:33:49 But I've played with it a little before that 01:33:53 It's always fascinated me 01:34:30 why are you declaring war. have you used closure for anything. why does it fascinate you. i'm fascinated. 01:34:33 it's good that we get to hear about sgeo's adventures with clojure 01:34:41 for the benefit of many in the channel 01:34:45 such as sgeo, sgeo and sgeo 01:34:52 -!- madbr has joined. 01:34:59 and me 01:35:02 don't forget about me, monqy 01:35:12 hmm, I wonder how broken Swing is 01:35:15 monqy: i know someone who would never forget about you, monqy 01:35:26 i've let the O(log_32 n) thing run its course by now haven't i 01:35:33 monqy: do you want a hint as to who it is 01:35:42 is it me 01:35:49 monqy: here's a hint 01:35:50 monqy, because this person is clueless about Clojure yet thinks he can teach it 01:35:55 monqy: it's shachaf 01:36:03 that was my second guess 01:36:12 Sgeo: do you have the clues 01:36:15 maybe you can help him! 01:36:19 you only get one guess, monqy 01:36:20 peace not war 01:36:36 the peace is teaching clj lover about the thing he loves 01:37:05 elliott: who's monqy 01:37:10 Oh hey maybe this person did get a clue 01:37:25 im upset wrt how only one of monqys questions got answered 01:37:31 me too 01:38:32 Sgeo: what sort of a clue did he get. what sort of a clue did he lack. how does one truly understand clojure. 01:38:37 and do you 01:38:46 these are more questions btw 01:39:10 monqy: who are you 01:39:11 Haven't used Clojure for anything yet. 01:39:23 perhaps you could indicate your questions with some kind of specialized marker. just put "question" after every sentence 01:39:36 It fascinates me because it's a reasonably functional Lisp with a decent sized community. 01:39:41 Bike: hi are you new 01:40:09 Bike: do you pronounce your name bike or baik 01:40:19 :question 01:40:34 yes, and I'm not sure of the distinction. 01:41:13 `WeLcOmE Bike 01:41:25 BiKe: WeLcOmE To tHe iNtErNaTiOnAl hUb fOr eSoTeRiC PrOgRaMmInG LaNgUaGe dEsIgN AnD DePlOyMeNt! FoR MoRe iNfOrMaTiOn, ChEcK OuT OuR WiKi: HtTp://eSoLaNgS.OrG/WiKi/mAiN_PaGe. (fOr tHe oThEr kInD Of eSoTeRiCa, TrY #eSoTeRiC On iRc.dAl.nEt.) 01:41:26 Bike: where did you come from & is it good 01:41:33 monqy, after he had an utterly wrong explanation of doseq vs for, I explained it, and now he seems to be explaining it that way 01:41:52 that's quite some capitalization; nowhere; no 01:42:00 I browse the wiki sometimes and decided I may as well drop by. 01:42:03 the essence of clojure enlightenment 01:42:11 the essence of clojure 01:42:12 and then I stayed because people were talking about math I don't understand. 01:42:14 the essence of enlightenment 01:42:43 i thought you were a clojure person or something 01:42:47 at least i vaguely remember something like that in the logs 01:42:50 but remembering things is hard 01:42:58 I taked with sgeo about clojure a bit yesterday. 01:43:36 talked*. we moved it to #clojure because it wasn't wanted here. 01:43:44 And wasn't wanted in #lisp 01:43:49 ugh i keep pronouncing bike [bike] in my head and it's so silly sounding i have to readjust to [baik] 01:44:09 I don't think I've ever pronounced it out loud. do as you please 01:44:21 monqy: what is the different. im not ipa 01:44:38 a bug and a letter vs a thing u ride on 01:44:39 real question is what is #lisp. what is Sgeo. what is #esoteric. what is ipa 01:44:48 monqy: a bug?? 01:44:56 I didn't know there was a bug by this name. 01:44:58 bee 01:45:06 monqy: like 01:45:07 beak? 01:45:09 i dont understand 01:45:15 bee kay 01:45:25 ok well i just read it as bike 01:45:26 as in bicycle 01:45:27 im ok with that 01:46:09 picture a bike constructed out of bees. there you go 01:46:16 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:46:17 doseq 01:46:19 dosequis 01:46:22 dos equis 01:46:22 Bike: that's beautiful 01:46:29 can you ride on the bike 01:46:32 will it hurt the bees 01:46:36 will it hurt you 01:46:46 Only one way to find out. 01:46:51 no........................... 01:47:49 Sgeo: btw did you answer my question about truly understanding clojure & do you truly understand clojure 01:47:55 i'm all questions.. 01:48:19 I understand Clojure better than this person does. 01:48:35 but what does that mean........................... 01:49:03 It means I actually understand the distinction between doseq and for, and understand that for, doseq, and loop are not functions. 01:49:07 what does anything mean, truly 01:49:37 you sound like you know a lot about clojure can you teach me a lot about conjure can you teach me clojure 01:59:01 Sgeo: what are the 5 stupidest things in the design of clojure 02:00:33 In my opinion, you mean? 02:03:01 no objectively 02:03:36 alt. no in my opinion alt. i can't think of any more alts 02:05:25 Sgeo: yeah 02:05:50 and i don't mean things like "it's too awesome for this world" or "people are too stupid to learn how brilliant it is" 02:05:59 actual bona fide flaws in the language (or its standard libraries) 02:06:29 Hmm. Early on, I had some tastes that this thing was bad or that thing was bad, but my tastes have actually started to vary. 02:06:51 does this mean clojure is perfect 02:06:55 monqy, no 02:07:03 how about macroexpand-all sucking ass 02:07:12 Bike, that was originally a contrib thing. 02:07:16 To be fair 02:07:42 But yes, the macroexpand-all mentioned on the clojuredocs website that now seems to come with Clojure should not be used under any circumstances. 02:08:55 Something I thought of before Bike reminded me of that: Sets are a function, given an argument they return.... the argument if it's present in the set, and nil if it's not. 02:09:48 Which means that if you often write code using sets as functions to test presence in the set, if nil is in the set and you try to test for nil's presence, you will likely wrongly assume that nil is not in the set 02:10:16 The really bad thing is that using sets in this manner is somewhat encouraged on clojuredocs.org 02:12:49 ouch 02:13:01 this is a common flaw in data structures like that 02:13:48 it's a pitfall of "dynamic typing" i.e. having a single, global, ad-hoc sum type 02:14:06 i,i "0 but true" 02:14:52 kmc: Well, C doesn't really have a solution either. 02:15:03 Other than using a pointer, I guess. 02:15:15 Not difficult to imagine a dynamic language that does not assign truthiness or falisity to things other than true or false. 02:15:32 Unless you're thinking of a different problem from the one I'm thinking of. 02:15:34 that doesn't matter, the same problem would come up any time you tried to get the false value. 02:15:36 The if structure could just throw an error at runtime if given something other than true or false 02:15:54 shachaf: sure, dynamic typing is neither necessary nor sufficient to have this problem, it just encourages it 02:16:21 you can emulate Maybe in Python easily enough 02:16:25 how does static typing help? 02:16:26 Nothing is None and (Just x) is (x,) 02:16:57 Most languages, dynamically or statically typed, have pretty terrible support for "sum types". 02:17:01 yeah 02:17:06 it's not really about static typing at all 02:17:08 that's true 02:17:31 a dynamically typed language could still encourage people to think of "Nothing vs. Just" rather than "Nothing vs. anything else" 02:17:45 but mostly they don't 02:17:51 At any rate, the documentation should encourage people to use contains? instead 02:17:53 the (x,) idiom is fairly common in python i think 02:17:58 The nice thing about Maybe is that it distinguishes Nothing from Just Nothing. 02:18:03 exactly 02:18:14 but Maybe# doesn't! 02:18:16 is (None,) not distinguished from None? 02:18:20 it is 02:18:41 but the standard in python is "return None or x", not "return None or (x,)" 02:18:57 ah, yes. but that's not really a dynamic typing thing, yeah. 02:18:58 Which is admittedly very convenient. 02:19:19 statically typed languages tend to push much further in the Maybe direction, though 02:19:26 because they don't give you this global sum type to fall back on 02:19:39 Except for the whole "null" thing. 02:19:41 Couldn't they? 02:20:02 you can have things like Haskell's Dynamic 02:20:14 but it's still apparent in the function signature when you're using them 02:20:24 and it's not the usual thing to do 02:20:34 I just mean hypothetically. 02:21:05 well, if you allow a function to return values of either of two completely unrelated types, without some kind of boxing / tagging, what is the type of that function 02:21:16 it can return the maximally useless existential type 02:21:40 or it can return the union of all types, if you have a subtyping system 02:21:44 in Java you would return Object 02:21:58 can't you just establish a union type...? 02:21:59 so yeah, Java does sort of have this implicit global sum type 02:22:15 Bike: then you're not falling back on the implicit global sum type 02:22:19 other than unboxed values not being Objects I guess. 02:22:21 you're introducing your own sum type 02:22:44 oh, as long as I'm asking dumb questions about types. is TAPL the thing to read? 02:22:50 TaPL is a good thing to read 02:23:01 cool. 02:26:23 Here's another flaw, although there's a library that ... eh 02:26:43 The Clojure ecosystem seems to encourage doing command-line stuff and restarting the REPL quite a bit 02:26:46 kmc: Wouldn't it be "nice" if in C you could use the pointer value 1 as well as the pointer value 0, for a second level of invalid pointers? 02:26:59 Since that whole page isn't used for anything anyway. 02:27:03 Making a new project with Leiningen involves issueing command line stuff 02:27:07 (Except not really.) 02:27:38 Adding libraries to a project involves restarting the REPL, atlhough there are things that try to work around that 02:28:35 (I should note that that's Leiningen, not Clojure, but Leiningen's the only real major... thing in the Clojure space for these purposes) 02:29:12 what does that name mean 02:29:20 I have no idea 02:36:49 -!- Mavrick has joined. 02:37:01 `welcome Mavrick 02:37:05 Mavrick: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) 02:39:29 shachaf: http://lxr.linux.no/linux+v3.6.3/include/linux/err.h#L8 02:40:48 ew 02:40:56 negative small errno value == pointer into last page of memory 02:41:06 -!- Mavrick has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 02:41:19 kmc why is linux so gross 02:41:21 & can you fix it 02:41:33 elliott: sub standard gui managers? 02:41:54 i don't know what you mean by that term but i am 99% sure that is not why linux is gross 02:42:23 operating systems are like sausages 02:42:35 -!- Nisstyre has joined. 02:42:42 kmc: what's @ like 02:43:12 you don't want to see how they're made, or something like that 02:43:46 elliott: it's just one of the things 02:43:49 Bike: @ is a thing 02:44:36 is this an in-joke 02:44:51 yes 02:44:58 ask shachaf about it 02:45:12 it's not a joke and asking shachaf won't be helpful 02:45:26 hey elliott should i introduce Bike to feather 02:45:36 gosh, I don't know what to do with all this conflicting information. 02:45:38 Bike: It's an in-thing but not a joke. 02:45:49 linux is used by the kind of people that use the console for as many things as possible 02:46:13 madbr: my mother uses linux. 02:46:21 are you sure you're not stuck in the 90s wrt how user-friendly linux is 02:46:34 are you sure your mother isn't a console cowboy? 02:46:57 elliott: well, that's the linuxians I know 02:47:19 is console cowboy a thing people say 02:47:25 petition for it to not become a thing people say 02:47:32 that's my petition anyone want to sign it how about monqy 02:47:56 It's a thing people who don't really exist said in the 90s (80s?). 02:47:58 i bet you're saying that because you want to hide your identity as being/not being a console cowboy because you are ashamed 02:48:15 a lot of ppl I know are, like, musicians, so they don't use linux 02:48:38 are you implying puredata isn't the most beautiful interface you've ever seen 02:48:51 i know of musicians who use linux 02:49:10 Bike: well it is basically max/msp with less antialiasing and that is sort of popular :p 02:49:11 bike: can you link to a good song composed with PD or supercollider? :D 02:49:18 though i suspect pure data has less functionality 02:49:21 i don't really know anything about it 02:50:09 max has more library code, far as I know 02:50:09 elliiott: what program do they use 02:50:45 madbr: i understand there is a relative plethora of programs 02:50:55 though certainly none were as polished as windows/os x stuff last time I checked polish is just one thing 02:51:06 name one program 02:51:09 that they use 02:51:45 they just cat to /dev/dsp, no doubt. 02:52:00 a console cowboy would have it no other way 02:52:10 * Sgeo reads about Typed Clojure 02:52:29 monqy: they don't compose 4 minutes of music per hour either 02:52:34 reference for console cowboys: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNtcWpY4YLY 02:52:43 elliott: btw im making console cowboy a thing people say 02:52:53 Sgeo: like typed racket, or 02:53:11 Bike, some inspiration from Typed Racket, I think 02:53:24 madbr: is this some kind of interrogation whereby i fail if i don't answer your question satisfactorily. idk i don't get this vibe, esp. the weird condensing of the plural into a "they" / missing distinction of "know" vs. "know of" 02:53:26 people do things and stuff 02:53:32 typed racket: anyone using a model m keyboard 02:53:33 It's definitely mentioned, but I think it does other things. Typed Racket does cool things that Typed Clojure doesn't, and visa versa 02:53:44 http://cloud.github.com/downloads/frenchy64/papers/paper.pdf 02:53:44 kmc: gosh, I was starting to be afraid I was the only one who'd seen ghostwriter 02:54:03 elliott: my point is that there are no good music programs on linux 02:54:06 `addquote typed racket: anyone using a model m keyboard 02:54:10 873) typed racket: anyone using a model m keyboard 02:54:34 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJagxe-Gvpw 02:54:46 madbr: i find that dubious for a whole host of reasons but i suspect you would find my counterarguments uncompelling 02:55:21 elliott: what are the good music programs for linux? 02:55:37 kmc: i hope this video doesn't contain relevant information in the audio track which got muted in two seconds 02:55:42 no 02:55:46 it's just that song from portal 02:56:01 that's why it got muted 02:56:05 yeah 02:56:15 i actually like that song again but i don't blame you 02:56:28 elliott: like, I can easily name a dozen of good programs for music on windows 02:56:52 it was really annoying for a year when everyone was constantly referencing and quoting portal 02:57:00 now it has died down a bit and i do enjoy me a portal reference from time to time 02:57:12 yeah now it's ponies 02:57:14 kmc: that's just because you're a console cowboy 02:57:16 monqy: am i doing it correctly 02:57:18 by the way i discovered the secret to better replay value on portal co-op: 02:57:20 drinking 02:57:27 madbr: Cheers. 02:57:30 kmc: :) 02:57:46 kmc: ok i am starting to suspect this was staged with this downloading a windows service pack thing 02:57:49 bash: sudo: command not found <-- work of art 02:57:56 yes AS ROOT 02:58:04 madbr: Personally, I'm using Ario and mpd. 02:58:22 madbr: If elliott recommends Quod Libet, beat him. 02:58:31 elliott: yeah it might be staged, but i really have no trouble believing people this stupd / drunk do exist 02:58:36 what makes a music program good by the way 02:58:41 pikhq: that's a player no? 02:58:47 It seems awesome, until you realize it's using more RAM than my god damned web browser and actually causing me to swap. 02:59:07 Yeah, Quod Libet is a music player. 02:59:20 Which is mostly awesome, but it leaks memory worse than god damned Firefox. 02:59:26 yeah I mean music producing programs 02:59:28 Oh. 02:59:33 I have no recommendations. 02:59:37 players are a lot easier to code :D 03:00:01 monqy: once you have good plugin and recording systems going, ergonomy 03:00:18 Linux programs tend to be the result of scratch-your-own-itch... 03:00:23 elliott: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7DKSao0ndI 03:00:27 And there's not that many programmer-musicians out there. 03:00:43 So you're not likely to get good music producing programs. 03:00:55 "THIS IS A EXPERIMENT .. THERE IS A HACKING GOING ON BUT THE ANTI VIRUS IS FIGHTING THE HACKER .. DUMB FUCK" 03:00:59 Same reason why on the art end all we've got is Gimp, which also sucks. 03:01:15 kmc: is this video a joke 03:01:15 eh it's pretty decent 03:01:18 elliott: i have no idea 03:02:04 pikhq: yeah... which is why I use windows :o 03:02:06 In the video above, the server is shown on the left, where the accounts of the people signed up to make calls are represented by blue bubbles. A hacker's attack comes from the right, launching small white and red bubbles that represent scans from a malicious computer program. The battle that plays out is slowed down by 25 per cent. 03:02:45 If the hacker's scans connect with the blue bubbles, they may be able to compromise the server, gathering the passwords of account holders and ultimately letting the hacker control other people's phone activity. 03:02:45 If you missed last week's "Born to be viral" video, watch a fireproof suit as it resists 1000˚C flames. 03:02:48 To protect itself against the attack, the server releases green honeypots: disguised data released to trap the intruding scans. But the hacker then increases the number of scans in an attempt to overwhelm the honeypots. In the end, the server wins the battle. 03:03:12 so what does the middle space represent 03:03:17 why is there gravity 03:03:38 the gravity represents the gravity of the situation 03:03:43 hackers hate gravity 03:03:53 that's why in neuromancer they had to go into space to hack 03:03:53 yeah it does seem pretty serious, I mean look at all those honeypots. 03:03:58 and meet up with the space rastafarians 03:04:14 kmc: you know things about kernel right 03:04:20 maybe 03:04:25 kmc: thanks 03:05:48 i remember kernel 03:06:08 i wonder if i ever knew things about kernel though 03:06:41 monqy: maybe you can learn from Sgeo 03:07:20 sgeo teach me if i ever knew things about kernel please 03:07:40 kmc: anyway why doesn't thingy 03:07:44 Grep the logs? 03:07:57 what's grep 03:08:26 kmc: I know about that from having called mmap with ptrace. 03:08:43 haha 03:09:10 It'll always return a page-aligned pointer, anyway, so it works unless you have way too many errnos. 03:09:22 ETOOMANYERRNOS 03:10:20 i need a clever halloween costume which is also extremely low effort 03:11:02 Homicidal maniac? 03:12:45 that is kmc's natural state though 03:12:55 kmc: how about console cowboy 03:12:58 i hear it's the hip new thing 03:12:59 right monqy 03:13:10 right 03:13:49 maybe i could boost the VT220 from SIPB 03:15:54 elliott: You should help with rwbarton's lazy map thing! 03:16:00 what is it 03:16:04 http://hpaste.org/76732 03:16:41 shachaf: those unsafeCoerces look unjustifiable 03:17:05 elliott: You don't think you can coerce between a strict boxed field and an unstrict boxed field? 03:17:19 The point of this is to figure out whether you can do that. 03:17:57 elliott: that reminds me of Dance Dance Immolation 03:18:19 which is like Dance Dance Revolution except that it shoots flames at you when you miss a step 03:18:24 irl? 03:18:27 yes 03:18:32 you wear a fireproof suit 03:18:40 it was a thing at Burning Man and elsewhere 03:19:48 kmc: this sounds of questionable safety 03:20:18 safety third! 03:24:24 -!- madbr has quit (Quit: Radiateur). 03:41:05 Is firewalking unsafe? 03:42:11 -!- aloril_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 03:55:06 -!- aloril_ has joined. 03:59:57 kmc: wasn't i going to ask you about kernel 04:16:43 yes 04:17:29 who is kernel!! 04:18:42 who was phone? 04:18:48 kmc: ok so what if like hygenic kernel 04:21:14 hygenic kernel???? 04:21:25 whoa, man 04:21:44 kernel panic 04:22:21 shachaf calm down cool it chill 04:22:21 kmc: i guess i am too tired to explain this properly 04:22:45 monqy: :'( 04:22:58 monqy: YOU COOL IT 04:23:08 * quintopia awesomes it 04:32:52 -!- hagb4rd has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 04:36:00 -!- hagb4rd has joined. 04:39:43 "The type named NIL is sometimes confused with the type named NULL, which has one value, namely the symbol NIL itself." 04:40:24 bonus: NIL is also in the symbol type. 04:43:59 so you have union(symbol,sequence)>nil, I suppose 04:46:24 -!- elliott has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 04:47:37 ion: I heard it's snowy in Finland. 04:47:44 "is that true" 04:47:58 It’s all lies. 04:48:26 monqy: I heard it's not snowy in California. 04:48:29 "is that true" 04:48:54 I already said it’s *all* lies. 04:49:29 we get snow in some places but not here 05:16:47 kmc: rot13 "unfunpuns" = "hashachaf" 05:21:10 hashachaf 05:21:14 huh 05:21:25 had no idea that's where that came from 05:21:53 Where what came from? 05:22:10 that your nick was a rot13 of funpuns 05:22:19 never occurred to me 05:22:23 That's not where the words "fun" and "puns" came from. 05:22:32 They're actually pretty old words. 05:22:46 i'm not an etymologist but... 05:22:53 are you sure you didnt invent those words? 05:23:07 Pretty sure. 05:23:11 Maybe my parents invented them, though. 05:51:06 I just forked on GitHub solely to assist me in debugging something 05:52:23 Clearly all IRC nicks are rot13 of something. 05:52:26 `rot13 Gregor 05:52:29 Tertbe 05:52:38 See? Gregor's real name is Tertbe. Clearly. 05:52:58 `rot13 kmc 05:53:01 xzp 05:53:04 And kmc is Welsh. 05:53:12 Tertbe nimble tertbe quick. 05:53:31 Or maybe Klingon. 05:56:57 `rot13 elliott 05:57:01 ryyvbgg 05:57:07 Now, see, elliott is definitely Welsh. 05:58:10 that's at least double welsh 05:58:35 He must be born of man and sheep. 06:27:43 monqy, did you see the update? 06:28:06 monqy: did you see Sgeo telling you did you see the update? 06:28:16 Sgeo: what update 06:28:19 shachaf: what sgeo 06:28:29 monqy: that one: ☟ 06:29:14 this one? ☝ 06:29:31 no, this one (psst sgeo!!!!!!!!): 06:29:32 ☟ 06:29:41 ☜ 06:29:47 yes that one 06:29:52 ☚ 06:30:52 "Tertbe Richards" does have a nice ring to it. 07:08:33 -!- epicmonkey_ has joined. 07:25:49 -!- epicmonkey_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:00:29 -!- Bike has quit (Quit: leaving). 08:17:44 ┌─────────┐ 08:17:45 │I ♥ CP437│ 08:17:46 └─────────┘ 08:18:38 -!- epicmonkey has joined. 08:22:25 petscii 09:45:08 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 09:52:31 -!- heroux has joined. 10:08:23 -!- MoALTz_ has quit (Quit: brb). 10:08:43 -!- MoALTz has joined. 10:09:06 -!- aloril_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 10:13:57 ion: Any conclusion on those lens slides? 10:14:18 Which ones? 10:14:35 The ones from that talk. 10:15:15 Edwarde Kmette’s talke? 10:15:48 I’d really need to see the talk, not the slides alone. 10:16:06 Makes sense. 10:17:24 ion: So if Functor->Lens and Applicative->Traversal, what sort of thing would Monad be? 10:17:53 Good question. I haven’t thought about that. 10:18:11 “In practice, it is impossible to specify a complete state for any realistic robot system. A complete state includes not just all aspects of the environment that may have an impact on the future, but also the robot itself, the content of its computer memory, the brain dumps of surrounding people, etc. Some of those are hard to obtain.” –Probabilistic Robotics 10:22:05 -!- aloril_ has joined. 10:28:09 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello). 10:42:38 -!- FreeFull has joined. 11:11:14 -!- carado has joined. 11:20:55 ion: type Fold a c = (Gettable f, Applicative f) => (c -> f c) -> a -> f a 11:21:23 Er, I missed the forall f. 11:21:42 It really means type Fold a c = forall m. Monoid m => (c -> Const m c) -> a -> Const m a 11:28:20 Apparently this is what LYAH says about instance Monad (r ->): 11:28:29 The implementation for >>= seems a bit cryptic, but it's really not all that. When we use >>= to feed a monadic value to a function, the result is always a monadic value. So in this case, when we feed a function to another function, the result is a function as well. That's why the result starts off as a lambda. All of the implementations of >>= so far always somehow isolated the result from the monadic value and then applied the function f to ... 11:28:35 ... that result. The same thing happens here. To get the result from a function, we have to apply it to something, which is why we do (h w) here to get the result from the function and then we apply f to that. f returns a monadic value, which is a function in our case, so we apply it to w as well. 11:28:41 No wonder people get confused. 11:29:35 Just pretending that instance is magical has always worked for me 11:32:05 that must be the best computer ever: http://www.john-ward.org.uk/personal/john/computers/html/rocket.html 11:32:21 it has a pizza oven and kitchen sink included 11:34:00 Embedded pizza oven? That can't be good 11:36:24 My computer doesn't have a pizza oven, although it occasionally feels like one. 11:36:38 (For the user's BMI) 11:37:42 :P 11:38:07 shachaf: but does your computer include a kitchen sink? 11:38:50 I tried before. They aren't very good at it. 11:39:58 who are not very good at what? 11:40:20 Most computers are pretty bad sinks 11:41:00 nortti: Would a heat sink count? 11:41:07 I once had a computer with ActiveSync. 11:42:37 My former computer had a leftover 5.25" device hole in the front panel, above the optical disc drive. I used it a few times to warm up some food. 11:42:46 :P 11:42:59 ion: ("hello","there")^.both -- "hellothere" 11:43:00 (The disc drive is useful because then things put in the hole don't fall to the bottom of the case.) 11:43:09 I usually filled a 5.25" slot with 5" floppy drive 11:44:30 ion: I guess I shouldn't be surprised by that. 11:44:48 -!- alluazad has joined. 11:44:55 hi 11:45:17 `WeLcOmE nortti 11:45:29 NoRtTi: WeLcOmE To tHe iNtErNaTiOnAl hUb fOr eSoTeRiC PrOgRaMmInG LaNgUaGe dEsIgN AnD DePlOyMeNt! FoR MoRe iNfOrMaTiOn, ChEcK OuT OuR WiKi: HtTp://eSoLaNgS.OrG/WiKi/mAiN_PaGe. (fOr tHe oThEr kInD Of eSoTeRiCa, TrY #eSoTeRiC On iRc.dAl.nEt.) 11:46:14 esoteric is programming language ? 11:51:52 alluazad: no. esoteric programing languages form a group of programming languages 11:52:00 shachaf: why did you welcome me= 11:52:03 *? 11:52:12 `WELCOME alluazad 11:52:17 ALLUAZAD: WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE DESIGN AND DEPLOYMENT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: HTTP://ESOLANGS.ORG/WIKI/MAIN_PAGE. (FOR THE OTHER KIND OF ESOTERICA, TRY #ESOTERIC ON IRC.DAL.NET.) 11:52:37 nortti: I thought you ought to feel welcome. 11:52:43 ok 11:52:54 why did you use `WeLcOmE? 11:53:03 when i click d link it returns 404 11:53:12 tswett: I thought you should feel WeLcOmEd. 11:53:15 alluazad: Try this one. 11:53:17 `welcome alluazad 11:53:20 alluazad: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) 11:53:37 `run cat `which WELCOME` 11:53:41 ​#!/bin/sh \ welcome "$@" | perl -ne 'print uc($_)' 11:53:54 ah 11:54:04 `run echo hi nortti 11:54:08 hi nortti 11:54:17 @tell monqy hi!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! monqy 11:54:18 Consider it noted. 11:54:19 -!- oonbotti has joined. 11:54:26 loading :) 11:54:38 `echo #echo hi shachaf 11:54:41 ​#echo hi shachaf 11:54:46 :/ 11:54:53 `run echo #echo hi echo 11:54:53 echo 11:54:56 No output. 11:54:58 #echo `echo hi shachaf 11:54:58 `echo hi shachaf 11:55:01 looks all greek to me 11:55:02 hi shachaf 11:55:06 why echoing ? 11:55:13 because we can 11:55:26 There is currently no text in this page. You can search for this page title in other pages, search the related logs, or edit this page. 11:55:27 !echo hi 11:55:30 hi 11:55:36 wat 11:55:38 Loading package distributive-0.2.2 ... [1] 9281 segmentation fault ghci 11:55:38 ^echo hi 11:55:38 hi hi 11:56:01 ^echo oh no 11:56:01 oh no oh no 11:56:07 Huh, it seems like disk corruption. 11:56:12 alluazad: that is on http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page ? 11:56:17 yes 11:56:18 ion: Maybe it's RAM corruption. 11:56:21 alluazad: what? 11:56:27 There is currently no text in this page. You can search for this page title in other pages, search the related logs, or edit this page. 11:56:28 this 11:56:46 alluazad: are you sure the url has no "." in it? 11:57:02 :d 11:57:06 Perhaps my SSD is dying or btrfs/dmcrypt is buggy. Or perhaps a RAM bit flip happened when writing to the disk. 11:57:06 removed the . 11:57:12 [13577.381731] btrfs no csum found for inode 2648044 start 0 11:57:15 [13577.382208] btrfs csum failed ino 2648044 off 0 csum 3580763835 private 0 11:57:29 You're using btrfs? 11:57:33 You deserve everything you got. 11:57:57 ion: use umsdos 11:58:13 Is btrfs still marked experimental? 11:58:17 so you people create prog languages right 11:58:23 yes 11:58:47 sometimes when we are bored 11:59:12 thats nice :) 11:59:18 my favorite esoteric language is java created by Gregor 11:59:21 Well, I guess experimental linux features can fail, but non-experimental ones will fail 11:59:32 Java is a wierd language ? :O 11:59:34 shachaf: Well, it might have not been btrfs’ fault, and if that is the case, most other filesystems wouldn’t even have noticed the corruption. 11:59:48 I bet it was, ion. 12:01:17 which one is d easiest prog language to learn ? 12:01:45 I started with C++. 12:06:36 Something other than C++. 12:07:36 C++ is strange 12:07:45 once i tried to learn it by book 12:07:51 was beyond me :( 12:08:13 I learned some visual basic at school :D 12:09:25 man , there are a lot of esoteric langs :O 12:09:33 Learn Haskell. 12:09:41 Haskell 12:09:48 -!- Arc_Koen has joined. 12:09:52 ok i am having some free time 12:09:57 I will try 12:10:31 Haskell is not listed here http://esolangs.org/wiki/Language_list 12:10:44 hello 12:10:50 alluazad: Haskell is not esoteric 12:11:04 Haskell’s not the easiest language to learn. Perhaps LOGO or something. :-P 12:11:09 But i like Haskell a lot. 12:11:35 How can u guys learn more than one prog langs ? 12:11:42 wont it be confusing ? 12:11:48 No, you’re only allowed to learn one. 12:12:03 ion: Unless you get the Advanced Programmer license. 12:12:04 Learning more languages will make you better in the ones you already know. 12:12:11 But nobody can afford those anymore. 12:13:09 Aren't languages free ? 12:13:24 Not the good ones. 12:13:30 only for those who have already paid! 12:14:03 Then how can one make freewares ? 12:14:13 if one is using paid langs ? 12:14:26 alluazad: I think they're joking 12:14:53 oh 12:14:54 ok 12:15:32 almost all languages are free - some domain specific languages aren't, but you don't have to use those! 12:15:57 domain specific means OS specific right ? 12:16:32 no, I was thinking more about languages that have been made for one field preciasely, for instance biology, or whatever 12:16:50 David cough Turner cough 12:17:15 err , aren't we talking about programming langs ? 12:17:36 what's with biology? 12:20:34 i got a pdf book for learning python 12:20:40 Even biologists are slowly evolving to use computers. 12:20:45 is python an easy lang ? 12:22:07 Only biologists bother with pythons. 12:22:33 python language i mean 12:22:37 not the snake 12:23:50 Well, it's a bit constricting, but much better than ASP. 12:25:01 hmmm 12:25:12 i need to learn 12:25:32 -!- boily has joined. 12:31:43 -!- alluazad has left. 12:53:42 I find that learning more languages actually makes things easier for me 12:53:53 Might not apply to everybody 13:28:58 -!- Frooxius has joined. 13:32:03 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 13:40:46 -!- Frooxius has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.89-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.17/2009122204]). 13:40:57 -!- Frooxius has joined. 13:45:32 -!- epicmonkey has joined. 13:49:35 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 14:04:01 python is an esolang? 14:04:30 You'd think so, right. 14:09:14 when you dabble into metaclasses and magic and whatnot, python can be an esolang. 14:14:01 -!- copumpkin has joined. 14:34:56 kind of like bash 14:41:27 Bash has TCP support 14:41:39 There is an IRC client written in pure bash. No externals 14:42:30 Hell 14:42:37 There is more than one IRC client written in pure bash 14:51:03 -!- elliott has joined. 15:19:46 FreeFull: is there one is that weirdly capitalized batch esolang? 15:20:07 No idea 15:23:48 I accidentally the physics. http://youtu.be/UaUR6u8nHoM 15:24:55 Sentence does not compute. 15:24:58 Verb missing. 15:38:02 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 15:38:44 -!- copumpkin has joined. 15:46:15 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 15:52:42 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:15:16 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 16:15:18 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 16:15:21 Hello 16:15:31 olleh 16:17:35 era uoy gnikaeps reversed desrever? 16:17:53 s/reveresed/ :( 16:18:12 (: 16:19:07 Does Crypto++ support ECDSA? 16:21:49 oh, apparently it does 16:23:24 -!- augur has joined. 16:26:31 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:29:13 -!- augur has joined. 16:31:28 -!- tswett has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 16:33:53 -!- tswett has joined. 16:38:01 pikhq: Is it worth switchingt o one of the non-gzip kernel compression methods these days? 16:38:26 elliott: Largely irrelevant for desktop use. 16:38:42 You might get a slightly faster boot switching to lzo? 16:40:32 right 16:47:52 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined. 16:48:40 I did not know x86 had "mask registers" 16:48:47 I don't even know what they're for 16:50:08 what's a mask register? 16:50:34 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 16:51:00 x86 uses them for controlling interrupts 16:51:43 Are they related to PIC? 16:52:57 The concept of a mask register itself isn't specific to interrupts 16:53:20 PICs typically have an interrupt mask register 16:53:41 Which gets used to specify which interrupts should be ignored 16:57:50 -!- barts_ has joined. 17:00:25 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 17:01:13 -!- barts__ has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 17:10:22 Windows 8: It's Almost Not Terrible http://youtu.be/X0fsyb-ttcw 17:26:30 -!- Vorpal has joined. 17:36:28 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:39:05 -!- tswett has quit (Changing host). 17:39:05 -!- tswett has joined. 17:46:34 -!- augur has joined. 18:43:23 http://motif.ics.com/article/news motif is now free software! 18:43:35 party like it's 1992 18:45:24 kmc: oh boy!! 18:45:57 https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=151494 motif innovation 18:46:57 oh noes, they should've killed it when they still had a chance to do it 18:47:04 now anyone can fork and it will never die 18:52:20 -!- AnotherTest has left. 18:53:11 What's wrong with Motif? 18:53:30 I mean, I'm under the impression that appearance-wise, people don't like the appearance as a matter of taste 18:53:33 But anything else? 18:55:04 -!- carado has quit (Quit: Leaving). 19:01:40 -!- Frooxius has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 19:23:06 I was going to ask zzo38 whether he uses Motif, but he isn’t online. 19:23:42 ion: no. he uses Xaw 19:23:56 ion: he updated from plain Xt some time ago 19:25:05 He uses Windows. 19:25:23 yes. he runs x11 on windows 19:25:35 3.11? 19:26:13 of course 19:26:35 actually it is win3.11 running on desqview/x 19:27:08 I forgot 19:29:35 Why would you use desqview/x instead of xming? 19:30:49 why would you use gopher instead of http 19:31:08 FreeFull: desqview/x runs under dos 19:31:34 FreeFull: and then windows runs as a x11 app 19:31:49 Why would you run DOS 19:32:01 -!- ais523 has joined. 19:32:05 FreeFull: because it is awesome 19:32:15 about DESQview/X: "This X-windowing system is X11R5 compatible ..." :D 19:32:24 oh well, at least it's X11 19:33:20 olsner: want to help me porting X10R4 software to X11? 19:34:18 nortti: not really :) 19:36:31 olsner: At least it's X, not W. 19:37:02 (Come to think of it: does Wayland mean a step back? Shouldn't it be, I don't know, Yayland or something.) 19:37:09 zayland 19:37:12 xayland 19:37:24 Yayland leads naturally to Zanyland. 19:37:52 I think I've played Zany Golf. 19:38:16 http://www.racketboy.com/retro/zanygolf-1.jpg yes that looks very familiar. 19:38:32 or maybe restart at Ayeland 19:38:35 I remember it being lots of funtimes, except when it got hard near the end. 19:38:54 and the next version can be Baylando 19:39:05 It had all those fancy animated things that required timing. That burger bounces up and down, and there was a windmill. 19:39:40 "Zany Golf featured a stunning 3D isometric viewpoint --" maybe it doesn't quite qualify as "stunning" any more. (Also I played the PC version.) 19:40:16 Oh, and that candle, it melted. 19:40:58 descriptions of graphics features should be timestamped 19:42:48 http://amiga.lychesis.net/year/1988/ZanyGolf_Level1_Map.html seems to have level maps all the way up to level 9. 19:45:01 -!- Bike has joined. 19:48:44 but what comes after zayland? åayland? 19:48:54 > succ 'z' 19:48:55 '{' 19:49:08 {ayland? 19:49:14 SF7 19:49:41 actually that maps to { in swedish-finnish 7bit charmap. what was it called 19:50:12 > succ 'Z' 19:50:14 '[' 19:50:31 olsner: { is lowercase [ 19:50:40 obviously 19:51:04 that is still part of some irc servers 19:51:45 > (toLower &&& toUpper) '[' 19:51:46 ('[','[') 19:53:51 `run echo '{ayland' | iconv -f iso646-fi -t utf-8 19:53:54 ​äayland 19:54:22 Äjland 19:55:39 For some reason the letter order of ISO/IEC 646 FI / SFS 4017 is ...ZÄÖÅ even though the alphabet always puts it ...ZÅÄÖ. 19:56:03 strange 19:56:08 norwegian order? 19:56:27 Norwegians and danes both have Æ Ø Å in the same, don't know how their "official alphabet" goes. 19:56:41 "The same" meaning their national variants of ISO646. 19:57:37 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danish_and_Norwegian_alphabet 19:57:53 Perhaps it's their fault, then. 19:57:59 I'll blame oerjan. 20:00:03 norwegian and danish keyboards apparently have the opposite placement for æ and ø 20:00:10 I noticed that before. 20:00:21 (There seems to be an "extended Swedish for names" variant that adds é/É and ü/Ü but loses ASCII `/@ and ~/^, respectively.) 20:00:35 strange 20:01:30 é is common in swedish names for some reason, though we don't really use it at all in words 20:01:48 olsnér 20:02:18 no, that's wrong 20:02:53 olsner: The Danish keyboard also has our §/½ (unshifted, shifted) key in the same place (left of 1), except reversing the two characters. 20:03:17 which is stupid because no-one uses either of those characters 20:03:19 (Norwegians apparently have a |/§ there.) 20:03:52 (They don't seem to have anything as the third character of <> where our | is.) 20:04:31 No-one really uses ¤ either, but that's still wasting space as shift-4 too. 20:05:11 ah, that one, I don't even know what it is... a sun? 20:05:29 It's the currency sign. 20:05:44 The generic one, that is. 20:06:08 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Currency_(typography) -- really useful. 20:06:35 (Latin-9 / ISO-8859-15 replaces it with the euro sign €, IIRC.) 20:08:34 heh, in soviet basic ¤ was used instead of $ as the string variable suffix 20:08:48 No capitalist dollars there! 20:09:26 heh 20:09:38 Apparently ISO-646-FI also replaces $ with ¤. 20:09:53 -!- Frooxius has joined. 20:12:42 `run echo \!'"#$%&'\''()*+,-./:;<=>?@[\]^_`{|}~' | iconv -f iso646-fi -t utf-8 # that's the all of nonalphanumeric printable ASCII 20:12:45 ​!"#¤%&'()*+,-./:;<=>?@ÄÖÅ^_`äöå‾ 20:13:26 Not too many changes; $ turns into ¤, there's the äöå thing, and ~ goes to the ever-popular overline. 20:14:18 the uberline 20:15:59 There's enough left to write digraphs for []{} and trigraphs for \|~. 20:17:51 ??-(a ??! b), aka a nor b. 20:18:47 And, of course, the "Hello, world!??/" string literal. 20:18:55 haha 20:18:58 a confused hello 20:19:02 Uh, "Hello, world!??/n", I mean. 20:20:05 what? 20:20:11 I love how that makes it look like you flipped the backslash by accident 20:20:34 The Standard's example of trigraphs is the beautiful ??=define arraycheck(a, b) a??(b??) ??!??! b??(a??) 20:20:48 what does "Hello, world!??/n" do? 20:20:58 It's just "Hello, world!\n". 20:21:06 if I wrote the first part of that line I would also go ??!??! 20:21:13 :P 20:23:31 chromium is showing the latency of this http request as "0.0 days" 20:23:33 thanks chromium 20:23:47 :P 20:23:58 `run echo -e '??=include \n int main(void) ??< printf("Hello, world!??/n"); ??>' | gcc -std=c99 -x c - -o /tmp/c && /tmp/c; rm /tmp/c 20:24:02 Hello, world! 20:24:02 very informstive 20:24:40 Sadly, the gnu90/gnu99 standards turn trigraphs off. :( 20:24:54 noooo 20:25:38 that would be awesome obfuscation for some c programs 20:26:13 The other example from the Standard is printf("Eh???/n");. 20:26:38 (That turns into printf("Eh?\n"); since only ?s that actually begin a trigraph are replaced.) 20:27:25 how do you print ??/ then? 20:27:39 All that syntactic noise for the benefit of parsers instead of humans, but then have rules like that that are unnecessarily difficult to parse? :-) 20:27:44 olsner: printf("??""/"); for example. 20:27:57 oh god 20:28:06 that is terrible 20:28:14 fizzie: aah, that's a nice workaround 20:28:26 Or "?""?/" maybe, according to taste. 20:29:12 I wonder if somebody, somewhere has entered a C channel asking "why do I get two ?s less" after mistaking the slant of character escapes and writing "huh?????/n". 20:29:40 very possible 20:32:20 is it common for compilers to actually enable trigraphs by default? 20:33:36 Probably not, but a nonzero number of places do recommend something like "-std=c99 -pedantic" as standard flags. 20:34:24 -!- zzo38 has joined. 20:42:28 olsner: Also, if you happen to be writing C++, you could write it "?\?/" -- they include a \? escape for plain ? that I can't immediately figure out any other reason for than trigraph-breaking. (Or if you don't have \ in your character set, you'd write ??/ as "???/?/", naturally.) 20:42:55 trigraph breaking using trigraphs, I like it 20:44:51 fizzie: Have you played Frog Fractions? You seem like the kind of person who might have. 20:45:18 hi elliott 20:46:11 elliott: So if Functor->Lens and Applicative->Traversal, Monad->? 20:46:21 `run echo -e '??=include \n int main(void) ??< std::cout << "???/?/??/n"; ??>' | gcc -std=c++98 -x c++ - -o /tmp/c -lstdc++ && /tmp/c; rm /tmp/c 20:46:26 ​??/ 20:46:36 (Why do I need -lstdc++ with -x c++ there?) 20:46:48 because you're linking with gcc 20:46:48 shachaf: What is this for? Is that something with van Laarhoven lenses? 20:46:51 shachaf: Why don't you ask edwardk? 20:46:54 zzo38: Yes. 20:46:54 olsner: Oh, whoops. 20:46:58 elliott: He's on vacation. 20:47:20 OK. Well, so am I. 20:47:24 Maybe I should ask van Laarhoven. But what does he know? 20:47:32 vacation? that just means he should have all the time in the world to answer questions on irc 20:47:37 You could try anyways 20:47:40 elliott: Isn't it nifty how you can just use a lens as a "mapM"? 20:48:00 elliott: I have not. But it sounds... different. 20:48:36 fizzie: I don't know how long it is, but what I've played so far I highly recommend. 20:49:19 kmc: Have you seen all the fancy lens things? 20:49:25 They're pretty neat once you figure them out. 20:50:11 not recently 20:50:54 fizzie: At least, I haven't played a better point-and-click bullet hell RPG text adventure recently. 20:54:20 kmc: It gives me some faith in the type class Traversable! 20:54:31 Which I was previously very suspicious of. 20:54:33 heh! 20:54:36 how so 20:54:36 fizzie: Also provides quote of the day: "This is space. Machines aren't "on" and "off" here; machines just are." 20:54:37 I'm still somewhat suspicious of it. 20:54:48 shachaf: OK, I have a question in turn. 20:54:50 Well, it decides an arbitrary order. 20:54:59 It's Foldable that I'm suspicious of, really. 20:55:27 What's something which is Foldable but not Traversable, anyway? 20:55:34 Oh, I guess Set would be. 20:55:37 shachaf: What happens if you use... Align??? (As per https://github.com/isomorphism/these/blob/master/Data/Align.hs.) 20:55:51 Align is sort of like Applicative. 20:55:53 But different. 20:56:15 How do you catch Align in the Sahara Desert? 20:56:43 elliott: Align is like zip except These? 20:56:59 elliott: Sounds like the devil, if you ask me. 20:57:29 shachaf: Look at Crosswalk, too. 20:57:33 shachaf: Crosswalk is like Traversable. 20:57:38 But instead of Applicative it uses Align. 20:57:47 IIRC Crosswalk is actually useful. 20:57:50 But I forget how. 20:57:55 I bet it's not. 20:58:01 Wow, I actually defined Bicrosswalk. 20:58:31 kmc: So a Traversal is "like a lens", except for zero-or-more values instead of exactly one value. 20:58:52 You get that by choosing an Applicative constraint instead of a Functor constraint, so you get pure and <*> 20:58:56 shachaf: http://pchiusano.blogspot.co.uk/2010/06/alignable-functors-typeclass-for-zippy.html 20:59:08 "If you have an Alignable for some f, you can lift Iteratee, Reducer and various other Reducer-like objects to f. Monoids and groups can also be lifted to Alignable. And the version of traverse based on Alignable is more appropriate for some applications." 20:59:24 ISTR edwardk dislikes Alignable because he can't think of a good name for it. 20:59:33 Oh, he actually comments there. 21:00:00 What if you use something which is not a Functor? 21:00:26 zzo38: I don't know, man! The world is waiting! 21:00:49 elliott: Hmm, if you use (,), do you get both reading and writing? 21:01:18 Such as, instead of Applicative or Monad or Functor, try Plus or Contravariant. 21:01:56 shachaf: Use (,) for what? 21:02:12 elliott: Instead of Const or Identity. 21:02:16 I guess so. 21:04:10 -!- derwaffenss has joined. 21:04:38 hi 21:04:59 Hello, World! 21:05:13 * derwaffenss pets the bot 21:05:17 `welcome zzo38 21:05:20 zzo38: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) 21:05:48 `WeLcOmE zzo38 21:05:52 ZzO38: wElCoMe tO ThE InTeRnAtIoNaL HuB FoR EsOtErIc pRoGrAmMiNg lAnGuAgE DeSiGn aNd dEpLoYmEnT! fOr mOrE InFoRmAtIoN, cHeCk oUt oUr wIkI: hTtP://EsOlAnGs.oRg/wIkI/MaIn_pAgE. (FoR ThE OtHeR KiNd oF EsOtErIcA, tRy #EsOtErIc oN IrC.DaL.NeT.) 21:06:03 derwaffenss: We have a lot of bots in here actually 21:06:42 Every last one of us is a bot. 21:06:48 yup 21:07:00 That is what they want you to think! 21:07:16 derwaffenss: at least EgoBot HackEgo fungot lambdabot oonbotti 21:07:17 nortti: which is rather detrimental to my presence on irc. its annoying. not fascinating. like i said:)) sure, but if you have 21:07:39 -!- boily has quit (Quit: Poulet!). 21:11:23 this is game of the year 21:12:44 fungot is the game of the year? 21:12:44 olsner: i mean from finland) 21:13:13 fungot: you mean what from finland? 21:13:13 nortti: what's the rational for that? what would that library be like? i've always wondered what the heck i remember it 21:15:29 fungot: when will macgyver realize that the gas station attendant with the german accent is a baddie? 21:15:30 olsner: isn't srfi 7 nonsense?! what unmitigated fnord!"? so that error reporting gives correct car/ cdr 21:16:37 I try to lead the chancellor into this castle I don't even know where he is, I also need to find and rescue the king, I need to figure out a plan. I can psychically contact the chancellor but he has no obligation to believe what I say or to answer my questions truthfully. I wonder if scrying is available, we can scry the chancellor or the king, if that somehow would help? 21:18:09 A map of this castle might also help. 21:18:12 heh: http://www.devttys0.com/2012/10/jailbreaking-the-neotv/ 21:18:15 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 21:19:51 hello finland 21:20:21 moi 21:22:58 what does "moi mukkulat" mean? 21:23:29 "hi mukkulat" 21:24:26 "moi mukulat" means "hi potato corms" I think 21:24:37 disregard spelling obviously 21:25:07 but "mukula" can refer to a kid so it might be "hi kids" 21:25:26 nortti: :D 21:25:47 what? 21:28:01 so it should've been "moi mukula" then? or is the -t a plural suffix? 21:28:21 -t is plural suffix 21:28:48 "moi mukula" is either "hi potato corm" or "hi kid" 21:29:12 .............................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................. ... 21:29:18 ... .......................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................... ... 21:29:24 ... .......................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................... ... 21:29:30 ... .......................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................... ... 21:29:33 why so many dots? 21:29:36 ... .......................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................... ... 21:29:42 ... .......................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................... ... 21:29:48 ... ......................................................................................... 21:29:51 "oopse" 21:29:54 nortti: It was ion's cat. 21:30:08 looked like it was you 21:30:22 ………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………… 21:30:24 ………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………… 21:30:26 ………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………… 21:30:28 ………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………… 21:30:30 ………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………… 21:30:32 ………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………… 21:30:48 ais523: You should kick me for flooding. 21:30:58 My cat learned about the Compose key. 21:31:15 shachaf: ion: stop 21:31:16 ais523: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it. 21:31:18 @messages 21:31:19 elliott said 1d 2h 39m 55s ago: tavern isn't run by the devs 21:31:25 elliott: well they created it 21:31:52 shachaf: Make sure to ion: stop. 21:32:00 ais523: no, they did not 21:33:17 ais523: it was started by danr and is hosted on CDO by Napkin, who I think might have a commit bit but is more the CDO admin 21:33:31 in fact most of the devs don't even have mod/admin access to it 21:33:44 ah, OK 21:33:51 I thought it was CDO who did it 21:34:26 Napkin handles maintaining the actual installation AIUI but that's not really "the devs" imo :p 21:42:16 -!- copumpkin has joined. 21:44:59 shachaf: How do you get the State RealWorld String out of an IO String? 21:46:19 -!- derwaffenss has left. 22:07:56 ion: You mean the State# RealWorld -> (# State# RealWorld, String #) ? 22:08:41 -!- epicmonkey has joined. 22:16:40 WTF I can't post Web Archive links on Facebook? 22:16:54 what? 22:17:11 "The content you're trying to share includes a link that's been blocked for being spammy or unsafe: 22:17:11 http://web.archive.org/web 22:17:11 For more information, visit the Help Center. If you think you're seeing this by mistake, please let us know." 22:17:23 ... 22:18:00 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined. 22:21:12 uh 22:21:23 this Isolated language is reaaaaally weird 22:21:28 it's a tape based language 22:21:40 but there seem to be no obvious way for one cell to "communicate" with another 22:21:51 what does that mean 22:22:35 tape based means its only means to store information is an array [x0; x1; x2; ...] 22:22:54 like a turing machine 22:22:57 yes 22:23:41 but here, a cell's content can only be directly affected by: its own content, the data pointer, the instruction pointer, and input 22:24:00 my webserver log: "1.234.4.16 Requested nortti.dy.fi/w00tw00t.at.blackhats.romanian.anti-sec:)" 22:24:06 and the only means of "branching" are to directly modify the instruction pointer 22:24:22 nortti: I had a very important question about a language you made but I don't remember which 22:24:33 Arc_Koen: what is it like? 22:24:41 no idea, let me check 22:24:57 (what's your user name again?) 22:25:19 oh that was lambdastack 22:25:33 what about it? 22:26:12 well I really can't remember 22:26:24 there was something I did not understand about its specifications 22:29:08 but I do remember it bothered me a lot! 22:29:57 if you remember it hilight me 22:31:16 ok 22:32:57 I actually designed it in boring math classes 22:37:04 well when I discovered it it sounded very interesting and I wanted to implement it right away 22:37:31 and then I realized it was not at all what I expected it to be 22:37:46 and then I realized I didn't know what I expected it to be 22:37:55 in what way? 22:39:06 well somehow I thought the stack was gonna support the lambda calculus the same way stacks usually support reverse-notation mathematics 22:39:25 hmm 22:40:20 what does that mean? 22:40:52 well, stack languages look like rpn, in that 4 6 + usually ends up with 10? 22:41:29 I mean like how would it support lambda calculus like rpn? 22:41:59 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has joined. 22:42:33 reverse polish lambda? 22:42:39 hmm 22:43:28 \x.\y.x ==> x.\y.\x? 22:45:57 you could do like Joy and just not have variables at all :) 22:46:17 Bike: that would be underload 22:46:30 that works too 22:47:18 hmm. this could be interesting: \x.\y.x ==> 1\\ 22:48:23 \x.\y.(xy) ==> 01`\\ 22:49:24 underload is basically a joy tarpit, so 22:49:35 albeit without ais523 realising it would be 23:04:20 nortti: well I eventually realized I did not know what it would mean :) 23:04:34 ah ok 23:05:11 "There are two major products that come out of Berkeley: LSD and UNIX. We don't believe this to be a coincidence." - Jeremy S. Anderson 23:05:20 hehe 23:05:30 often "BSD and LSD" 23:05:41 as 2.11BSD user I agree- 23:05:43 -- 23:05:54 though LSD was invented in Basel 23:07:38 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 23:07:55 and unix in... new jersey? 23:09:44 pikhq: I was just surprised that Go is PICing interface dispatch because… well, there is no VM. Seems like it would be difficult to do, even from the stupid bookkeeping perspective of “now either my code has to be writable or I have to make sure this data always lives in cache” 23:10:34 writable code everywhere! what could go wrong 23:10:54 -!- Vorpal has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 23:15:28 PICing interface dispatch? 23:32:33 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 23:42:16 Sgeo: Go implements interface method dispatch through PICs. I had always wondered how it handled this (its interfaces are structural, its types fairly implicit, so it can't make vtables), so I asked Rob Pike. 23:42:42 What's a PIC? Last time I saw that term, it was in the context of COBOL 23:43:09 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inline_cache 23:44:45 (Typically used by virtual machines, not compiled languages) 23:45:16 (Bearing in mind that here I mean “compiled languages” in a sense that excludes, e.g., Java) 23:51:03 Interesting 23:52:32 Oh, P as in polymorphic? 23:53:42 Can't you compile Java if you really want to 23:53:52 i feel so illiterate, for thinking of "position independent code" 23:54:26 I know the GJC can compile Java and Java bytecode to native code 23:55:01 When I see PIC, I think Programmable Interrupt Controller :) 23:55:12 Does Clojure work on GJC? Tried it recently, it didn't seem to 23:55:24 No idea 23:55:28 I haven't actually ever used GJC 23:55:30 When I see PIC, I think COBOL 23:56:03 GJC doesn't have any news from after 2009 on its website 23:56:04 "Rather than using types, as these languages do, COBOL uses a kind of "declaration by example" strategy. The programmer provides the system with an example, or template, or PICture of the storage required for the data-item." 23:57:37 is that like some strange proto-prototype OO system 23:58:13 cheese is like int 23:58:31 PIC S9999V9999 23:58:53 That is the PICTURE clause for a signed number with 4 digits before the implied decimal point and 4 digits after 23:59:38 9 = decimal digit? 23:59:41 Yes 23:59:50 http://www.csis.ul.ie/cobol/course/DataDeclaration.htm