00:00:00 -!- Vorpal has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 00:00:36 -!- nooodl_ has joined. 00:03:35 -!- nooodl has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 00:05:29 -!- Vorpal has joined. 00:07:13 dickachu 00:07:40 * pikhq translates to Japanese 00:07:42 Pikachin 00:08:21 dikhq 00:14:57 -!- Vorpal has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 00:21:55 http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/10/31/us/2012-sandy-POD-2.html#/?slide=11 Our Lady of the Extension Cord 00:22:19 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:27:14 :-D http://www.reddit.com/r/funny/comments/12kce9/apple_resizes_website_so_that_the_samsung_apology/ 00:36:37 "It is there specifically to get the bottom 310px of the website out of view. Independent of screen resolution." 00:36:37 amazing 00:41:12 "This code appears in most of Apple's non-US sites, not just the UK site." aw 01:33:18 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Quit: Leaving). 01:34:05 -!- lambdabot has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:38:07 -!- lambdabot has joined. 01:44:04 kmc: 01:44:06 @ty flip 01:44:07 (a -> b -> c) -> b -> a -> c 01:44:13 It's not everything, but it's something! 01:44:17 heh 01:45:42 -!- Sgeo_ has changed nick to Sgeo. 01:46:29 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:46:43 -!- nooodl_ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 01:47:14 > over both (+1) (1,2) 01:47:18 (2,3) 01:47:42 > toListOf (traverse._1) [(1,2),(3,4),(5,6),(7,8)] 01:47:44 [1,3,5,7] 01:50:11 > both succ (1,2) 01:50:14 No instances for (GHC.Enum.Enum (f0 b0), GHC.Num.Num (f0 b0)) 01:50:14 arising fr... 01:50:16 :-( 01:50:18 :-----( 01:50:25 )-------------------------------------------: 01:50:32 > both (pure . succ) (1,2) 01:50:34 No instance for (GHC.Show.Show (f0 (b0, b0))) 01:50:34 arising from a use of `M48... 01:50:39 > runIdentity $ both (pure . succ) (1,2) 01:50:41 (2,3) 01:50:44 yuck 01:50:50 :t over 01:50:51 Setting s t a b -> (a -> b) -> s -> t 01:51:27 · · 01:51:29 | 01:51:33 /-\ 01:51:49 is that the king of all cosmos? 01:54:18 :───────────┐ 01:54:20 ┌──────┼───────┬────D 01:54:22 └──────┘ └────D 01:57:13 :( 01:57:59 ...what exactly is that meant to be? 01:58:14 Alien dick? 01:58:38 A..ha 01:58:47 the two-faced smile of ion 01:59:31 A-ha? 02:00:01 ion++ for using line drawing characters 02:00:06 line drawing characters are the best 02:01:18 ┌─────────┐ 02:01:19 │I ♥ CP437│ 02:01:21 └─────────┘ 02:04:26 my terminal font does a really, really bad job with the ♥ character 02:04:30 http://i.imgur.com/sW4qQ.png 02:04:49 i don't think it was always thus 02:05:25 You should ask for your money back. 02:06:17 What's your terminal and font? 02:06:45 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 02:11:56 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:12:44 rxvt-unicode -bg black -fg white -fn "x:6x13" 02:13:15 sometimes my computer does this thing where it uses up all the ram (?) and then there is weird graphics corruption that doesn't fully go away 02:13:28 like not just the framebuffer gets corrupted but various offscreen buffers that programs keep using 02:13:31 so maybe this is that 02:13:36 or maybe it's the fault of a dist-upgrade 02:13:39 or maybe i'm just cursed 02:13:41 that's what happens when you fill the bitbucket 02:16:54 Bits spill out 02:17:01 And have a war 02:21:05 halp, I'm thinking about watching SG-1 again 02:22:23 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has joined. 02:24:00 is that a good one or no 02:28:01 I like the font "Monospace". 02:28:06 It's the default one. 02:28:08 Very good font. 02:28:23 i also have a monospace font 02:28:31 I think you can get it in urxvt with -fn 'xft:Monospace' 02:30:21 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:30:37 or by putting "URxvt.font: xft:Terminus:size=8" in .Xdefaults 02:37:11 yeah i'll have to look into that 02:37:20 i can become one of these droid sans mono evangelists 02:37:36 your choice of fonts really says a lot about you as a programmer 02:37:41 it can define whether you're a rockstar or more of a ninja 02:37:48 yeah, it has to be some obscure unreadable but supposedly-really-good-for-code font 02:38:24 "The color camera on Apollo 12 provided a few brief moments of color telecasting before it was inadvertently pointed at the Sun, ending its usefulness." 02:38:56 how much money was spent to send this fancy camera to the goddamn moon and then "whoops" 02:39:13 hey be fair. the sun is pretty big! 02:39:29 it's much bigger up there in space 02:39:55 it gets bigger the closer to the sky you get 02:40:11 until you hit the bounding box and then you just can't move even though your legs are moving 02:52:10 shachaf: Monospace is actually an alias to a different font 02:52:26 It gets you either Bitstream Vera Sans Mono or DejaVu Sans Mono, I don't know which 02:52:34 Hmm 02:52:39 There exists a Tcl-Java bridge 02:52:49 hi sgeo 02:52:56 whats this about?? 02:52:59 haha, why the fuck? 02:53:03 Wonder if I can fix it up so that it can interact with Clojure in a more idiomatic way than dealing with the Java objects directly 02:53:10 http://tcljava.sourceforge.net/docs/website/ 02:54:00 I actually potentially have a use for this thing, although probably writing my own parser for the data in question and just rewriting the code would make more sense 02:54:46 Sgeo: by "use" do you mean "thing you will actually use" 02:55:51 No. I have no real reason to rewrite this project from scratch, in a way that will possibly cause pain for actual user in that a JVM would be needed. 02:56:02 -!- augur has joined. 02:56:10 https://twitter.com/fivethirtynate 02:58:01 Although actually, Tcl and Clojure are both awesome languages. 02:58:06 (And I have actually used Tcl) 03:03:41 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has quit (Quit: Leaving). 03:06:31 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has joined. 03:09:38 FreeFull: No, the font is called "Monospace" 03:09:56 That's the name of the font. 03:10:57 shachaf: Monospace is an alias 03:11:01 An alias I say! 03:11:15 MAYBE AN ALIAS FOR "Monospace" 03:11:57 The “M” stands for “Monospace”. 03:14:28 What does the "onospace" stand for? 03:14:45 it's actually a beatles reference 03:15:32 You're a Beatles reference! 03:16:38 WTF 03:16:46 In space, no-one can hear you marry John Lennon. 03:16:48 Some people in New Jersey might be ... voting by email? 03:17:20 i for one support giving our electoral process over to srizbi 03:17:42 http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/03/new-jersey-residents-can-_n_2070016.html 03:25:59 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 03:27:51 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has joined. 03:32:53 ion: Man, I should learn Finnish. 03:33:05 shachaf: Learn Japanese and get drunk. 03:33:26 do they have drinking in japan 03:33:35 shachaf: Noooo, don’t do it 03:33:36 great, so they are implementing electronic voting at absolutely the last minute with zero security measures 03:33:50 shachaf: Yes. 03:34:10 to be fair there is no real security on mail-in ballots 03:34:36 and voter fraud is mainly a bullshit issue used by republicans to make it harder for poor people and minorities to vote 03:34:52 and NJ won't matter for the presidential election, anyway 03:35:56 kmc: Did you see that nytimes.com thing? 03:36:01 which? 03:36:07 http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/11/02/us/politics/paths-to-the-white-house.html 03:37:12 yeah, that's cool 03:37:50 sgeo: Faxes still exist? 03:38:04 ion: No. 03:38:14 If someone claims they have one, you should tell them it's really a faux fax 03:38:19 shachaf: Why do you think you should learn Finnish? 03:38:44 ion: Because Finnish people should speak Finnish! 03:38:52 Or Swedish, I guess. 03:38:55 shachaf: isn't it great how 70% of the country is completely irrelevant to presidential politics? 03:40:04 kmc: Today I learned about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Popular_Vote_Interstate_Compact 03:40:57 yeah that is an amusing hack 03:40:59 * pikhq lives in a part that is relevant. Bleh. 03:41:38 they're almost halfway there 03:43:43 now, what if more states allocated electoral votes per congressional district 03:43:48 as ME and NE do 03:43:52 would that be good or bad? 03:44:01 That… is such a retarded way to fix the system, but oh well, better than nothing. 03:45:31 yep 03:47:30 another option is for states to allocate their EVs proportionally to the statewide popular vote, rather than all-or-nothing 03:47:41 neither of those requires a compact or a federal constitutional amendment 03:48:45 Oh, it's November already. 03:49:14 yes 03:49:34 some call it "election month" but i call it nanowrimo 03:49:55 -!- nooga has joined. 03:51:59 some call it erection month 03:54:17 Wouldn't that be opposed by whatever the majority of a state is, since they're now not as strongly represented? 03:54:31 Why call it "election month"? The majority of the month is taken up by not-election. 03:55:06 Post-election month, since most of it is post-election, while the beginning is pre-election? 03:56:04 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 04:03:40 Sgeo: Really, it should just be opposed by Republicans, since in each election where the popular vote hasn't matched the electoral vote, they've won ;) 04:04:26 Gregor: but like every electoral trend, that could change in any given year 04:08:43 "an electoral trend could change in any given year" sounds like an electoral trend. 04:08:54 Or is that a metaëlectoral trend, and therefore immune to itself? 04:09:52 you are mistaken in interpreting it as a trend 04:10:47 a trend is "this has always been" while that is just "this might or might not be" 04:11:04 i dont think thats what trend means 04:20:01 -!- t0mmyy has joined. 04:22:35 feel free to define it as you like 04:22:37 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 04:23:02 Gracenotes: hi 04:23:52 hey. how's it? 04:23:58 hi Gracenotes 04:24:03 What brings you here? 04:24:06 `welcome Gracenotes 04:24:19 Gracenotes: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) 04:25:10 Gracenotes: it's itty 04:25:19 When the server my irssi screen session is on resets, sometimes I forget to join channels 04:26:00 Why don't you have the channels on autojoin 04:26:08 and so went my habit of coming here from I-forget-when. 04:26:24 I've never liked the idea of autojoin 04:27:02 I join so rarely, it doesn't seem worth it >_> 04:28:57 well, connect rarely, due to good uptime. in any case, I've made trawls through the wiki here and there when bored :p The only lang I've created was a stack-based lambda calculus interpreter 04:30:45 Gregor: i'm not sure if 1824 is a counterexample to what you said or not, it's just that fucked up 04:31:28 the candidate with the largest popular vote share and the most electoral votes lost 04:31:35 to another candidate from the same party 04:31:48 -!- t0mmyy has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 04:32:13 Well, yeah, 1824 was just weird. 04:32:54 i had forgot about this until just now 04:32:59 or maybe i never learned it in the first place 04:42:49 -!- TeruFSX_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 04:43:57 -!- TeruFSX has joined. 05:41:41 elliott: jfischoff in #haskell wants to talk about mapping on HLists and things. 05:42:58 i dont know much about oleg's definition of hlists 05:43:09 '[*] HLists. 05:44:25 elliott++ 05:44:58 i did my duty 05:47:09 elliott: He spelled your name with one t. 05:47:17 You should give him a new version of the code with a backdoor in it. 05:47:36 the backdoor is already in there 05:47:38 it's an unsafeCoerce 05:49:03 elliott: But it's commented out in the most recent version. :-( 05:50:04 thats not my paste 05:50:07 thats another persons paste 05:50:29 people seriously need to start standardizing the elliott spellings 05:50:34 way too many variations 05:50:40 eliet 05:51:29 copumpkin: I'm pretty sure T. S. Eliot already decided on the correct spelling. 05:51:43 see, Eliot just looks wrong 05:52:00 that's a funny way to spell "right" ! 05:58:29 hi shackhaff 05:59:45 ion: The correct spelling is שחף 06:00:35 omg crypto 06:00:44 * copumpkin invokes metatron 06:01:09 > (unwords . map concat . sequence) [["E"], ["l", "ll"], ["io"], ["t", "tt", "tte"]] 06:01:10 "Eliot Eliott Eliotte Elliot Elliott Elliotte" 06:01:44 shachaf: shchf? 06:01:45 elliott: how would you like to be "Eliotte" 06:02:11 monqy: if elliott doesn't want to be Eliotte can i be Eliotte 06:02:19 sure why not 06:07:17 ‘libtcod, a.k.a. “The Doryen Library”, is a free, fast, portable and uncomplicated API for roguelike developpers providing an advanced true color console, input, and lots of other utilities frequently used in roguelikes.’ 06:07:23 Who wants to developpe roguelikes? 06:07:49 "pushing the roguelike enveloppe" 06:09:12 dear roguelike how does it feel to have your envolope pushed?? 06:10:17 enveloppe 06:10:26 envoloppe 06:15:39 My clothes only have single-hole zippers. 06:46:22 1:59:54 06:46:24 1:00:44 06:47:54 hi 06:55:13 hi 07:09:46 I think libtcod is mostly useful as a terminal substitute for windows 07:09:53 the rest of it seems too disjointed, really 07:11:04 also, I think it's hilarious what Apple did with their homepage (designing it to be slightly too tall for the screen no matter what size the screen is, it deliberately adjusts for it and makes itself too large to fit, in order to hide the link to the apology to Samsung) 07:11:49 gosh 07:21:02 ais523: i like how the judge literally said "samsung's tablets are less cool, so they don't infringe" 07:21:16 can't imagine samsung were terrible happy about winning on that account 07:21:19 *terribly 07:29:12 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 07:30:15 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:32:06 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 08:09:27 -!- Bike has quit (Quit: leaving). 08:24:51 ais523: Reportedly it's not too tall "no matter what"; it doesn't actually stretch, just rearranges itself a bit. 08:40:57 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 08:58:05 -!- Vorpal has joined. 09:12:27 -!- epicmonkey has joined. 09:24:01 -!- nooodl_ has joined. 09:35:00 -!- ais523 has quit. 09:45:30 -!- nooga has joined. 10:18:00 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 10:47:53 -!- MoALTz has joined. 10:51:41 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 10:55:01 hm where is elliott when you need him 10:55:19 Hexham 10:55:54 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 10:55:58 well duh 10:56:53 "well duh" - vorpal 10:57:19 shachaf, I supposed you don't know anything about what god ergonomical keyboards exist? 10:58:20 that isn't silly ultraflat 10:58:32 I heard Kinesis is good. 10:58:41 I think kmc might know something. 10:58:51 I was looking at microsoft's keyboard lineup (I really like their mice) but it seems to be all ultra-flat these days 11:00:22 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello). 11:00:33 shachaf, that maybe looks too ergonomical (Kinesis), seems kind of hard to get used to 11:01:00 I know a few people who use it and like it. 11:01:07 wouldn't want to buy that without trying it first. And there aren't really any good physical shops around here that would have it. 11:01:23 that is a bit of an issue 11:01:55 WHO NEEDS GOD WHEN YOU CAN HAVE A MALTRON 11:03:52 heh 11:04:02 Jafet, why not go for a Datahand while you are at it :P 11:04:34 anyway, I want something that isn't completely different, I'm not only typing on it. Game keymappings still need to make sense for me. As do emacs keymappings. 11:05:17 also if the layout is going to be different I would need a reasonable Swedish keymapping for it still 11:07:29 I had one of the "Microsoft Natural Ergonomic" line keyboards once -- something like the http://www.verkkokauppa.com/files/images/71/2_27314-358x228.jpeg except few (dozen?) product generations back. 11:07:53 Can't say I liked it terribly much, but keyboards are kind of personal things. 11:09:19 (The one in the image is Microsoft Natural Ergonomic Keyboard 4000 -- I think the one I had didn't have any numbers.) 11:10:04 fizzie, yeah the modern ones appear to be ultraflat 11:10:13 well okay not that one 11:10:19 I was looking at the curve one 11:10:29 which is a bit between that and normal keyboards 11:10:35 I liked the older curve ones 11:11:07 The Comfort Curve 3000 seems kinda flat, yes. 11:11:12 sadly so 11:12:03 I used a 2000 at one point, it was kind of slightly flatter than classical keyboards, but not as flat as the 3000 appears 11:12:14 (Some) gamer keyboards look kind of different. 11:12:16 http://www.verkkokauppa.com/files/images/97/2_137749-1000x1000.jpeg 11:12:21 That's a lot of buttons. 11:12:24 lol what 11:12:55 don't really need that. All I really need is a comfortable standard keyboard + volume buttons. Anything else I don't really care about 11:13:10 fizzie, what is the thing in the middle of MS natural? 11:13:20 scroll wheel? 11:17:47 uh uh, it has a "nordic" layout too? 11:17:50 what does that even mean 11:19:51 okay, from that photo it even appears to be an US layout, guess they used stock photo 11:20:04 would have to call them to make sure it is actually correct before I buy it 11:20:04 -!- hagb4rd has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 11:20:23 Tiny enter D:< 11:20:29 that yeah 11:20:31 hate that 11:20:43 not going to buy a keyboard without a large enter key 11:21:00 Instead I have a tiny leftshift :D 11:21:16 eh? 11:21:56 To make space for \| between left shift and z 11:22:05 Can one access I²C devices asynchronously using the Linux API? 11:22:31 ah right 11:22:41 No idea 11:23:04 ion, async in what way? 11:23:07 non-blocking IO? 11:23:33 vorpal: Tell it to start doing something, block in poll()/select(), then read the result. 11:23:38 if so couldn't you just create a thread to handle the request for you and have that notify you async 11:23:55 but yeah I have no idea if it supports it 11:23:58 what do the docs say? 11:24:02 and what happen if you try it 11:24:10 Yeah, using threads is an alternative. 11:25:06 It supports read() for a subset of the functionality: http://git.kernel.org/?p=linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux-2.6.git;a=blob;f=Documentation/i2c/dev-interface 11:25:40 Namely, the equivalent of i2c_smbus_read_byte. 11:26:24 But i’d like to be able to use the full API asynchronously. 11:28:01 ion, what sort of device are you interfacing with? 11:28:24 It's a scroll wheel, yes. 11:28:28 It's for zooming. 11:28:49 An accelerometer, a magnetometer, a gyroscope, a barometer and a temperature sensor. 11:28:59 ion, hm... laptop? 11:29:05 (The version I had had no wheels.) 11:29:09 or a smartphone? 11:29:12 Oh, and another pressure sensor with a pitot tube. 11:29:17 An RC airplane. 11:29:19 ah 11:29:48 ion, yeah I could guess when you mentioned pitot tube :P 11:31:01 upgrading ubuntu 10.04 to 12.04.1 on a laptop here, there is always something that goes wrong isn't it. This time lsb_release stopped working partway through the upgrade and the upgrade process is spewing warnings as a result, still seem to work 11:31:09 also wth 11:31:28 mojabake error dialog showed up. With two mojabake buttons 11:31:33 I have no idea what that is for 11:45:40 The change in version number represents how many things have been replaced for no reason 11:45:49 hah 11:45:58 true 11:46:29 Jafet, which is why I'm doing this upgrade on an old, otherwise unused, laptop first. 11:46:50 to see how much time I will need to set aside to clean up the mess when I do it on this modern laptop 11:47:08 well, reasonably modern laptop anyway 11:47:43 Upgrading ubuntu: echo deb ftp.debian.org/debian sid main > /etc/apt/sources.list 11:47:55 nice one 11:48:40 (You will need to use the Terminal for that. Open the Terminal from the Start Menu. I mean the App Launcher.) 11:50:20 Jafet, I'm going to convert it into xubuntu after the upgrade anyway 11:52:48 XXXbuntu. 11:54:19 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 11:55:06 fizzie, :P 11:55:22 fizzie: a new animal every time! 11:56:35 There's the Ubuntu Satanic Edition. 11:58:17 Arch 11:58:28 Ubuntu Arch? 11:58:34 No 11:58:39 Just Arch 11:59:07 Arch Linux is okay 11:59:43 The Suse Ubuntu Archmint Genfedoratoo Linux. 12:00:32 fizzie, with the SlackDebGoboWare package manager? 12:01:35 It installs package.rpm.deb.tar.gz.xz.bz2 files. 12:02:51 > "apt portage" \\ " ott" 12:02:53 "apprage" 12:03:23 "apprage" sounds like the best package manager ever. 12:03:38 Best, and furious. 12:04:00 "Like the "Deb" part of the term Debian, it originates from the name of Debra, then girlfriend and now ex-wife of Debian's founder Ian Murdock." <- Heh, I did not know that. 12:04:19 lol 12:04:45 Must be a nice reminder these days. 12:04:56 Think about that the next time you unpack a deb file. 12:06:15 `anagram aptgetpacmanportage` 12:06:29 A Carnage Gap Tempt Top 12:06:32 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: anagram: not found 12:06:44 Lol 12:08:00 ACGTT package manager 12:08:44 The next step in linux evolution 12:11:03 `alias echo='echo $( echo )'; echo Test 12:11:07 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: alias: not found 12:11:25 `yes 12:11:28 y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y 12:12:08 FreeFull: abbreviated, it looks like a gene 12:12:38 quintopia: Three letters for one aminoacid though 12:12:54 -!- hagb4rd has joined. 12:13:36 it's the start of a gene? 12:24:01 it's 5/3 of a dipeptide 12:25:42 -!- ogrom has joined. 12:25:57 -!- ogrom has quit (Client Quit). 12:34:47 > [1..] 12:34:48 [1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,28... 12:34:54 -!- hagb4rd has quit (Quit: hagb4rd). 12:35:09 > concat $ map show [1..] 12:35:11 "12345678910111213141516171819202122232425262728293031323334353637383940414... 12:35:35 > "0.0" ++ concat $ map show [1..] 12:35:37 Couldn't match expected type `[GHC.Types.Char]' 12:35:37 with actual ty... 12:35:44 > "0.0" ++ (concat $ map show [1..]) 12:35:46 "0.012345678910111213141516171819202122232425262728293031323334353637383940... 12:36:14 Look ma, an irrational number! 12:36:45 > [show(sum$scanl div(100^n)[1..[4..]!!n])!!n|n<-[0..]] 12:36:48 "27182818284590452353602874713526624977572470936999595749669676277240766303... 12:36:56 Phantom_Hoover: 5/6? 12:39:18 shut up quintopia 12:39:25 ? 12:39:53 you heard me 12:40:15 i dont take orders, but feel free to explain your sudden hostility 12:49:26 -!- hagb4rd has joined. 12:52:05 quintopia: 5/3 12:52:14 Wait 12:52:17 He said dipeptide 12:52:19 5/6 then 13:06:08 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 13:21:05 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 13:31:20 -!- nvt has left. 13:43:03 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has joined. 13:58:23 -!- ogrom has joined. 13:58:35 -!- ogrom has quit (Client Quit). 14:05:55 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 14:15:51 -!- hagb4rd has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 14:39:31 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 15:15:27 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 15:20:01 -!- hagb4rd has joined. 15:56:17 hm 16:15:16 -!- Bike has joined. 16:16:02 -!- hagb4rd has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 16:30:06 unity of gnome 3, which is the most screwed up GUI of the two? Hard to decide 16:30:25 "Unity of Gnome 3" sounds fancy. 16:30:33 Also like a royal title. 16:31:00 All kneel for His Highness Unity of Gnome 3. 16:31:12 or* 16:31:18 but hah 16:32:14 unity runs like shit on the laptop I'm upgrading to 12.04 anyway 16:32:24 Pentium M with 512 MB RAM so not surprised 16:33:02 In 12.10 with LLVMPipe I'm sure it'd be BLAZING FAST. 16:33:03 Vorpal: use lubuntu 16:33:25 is lubuntu ubuntu for losers? 16:33:30 I'm considering switching to dwm 16:33:59 Why are three leds of the switch blinking if I'm downloading a file? Two I'd get. 16:34:44 kmc: it is ubuntu with lxde 16:35:17 Is there an Enlightenment-Ubuntu too? Enbuntu? 16:35:44 lxde isn't a real de 16:35:45 fizzie: you forgot about the NSA intercept port 16:35:54 It's just a bunch of different things put together 16:37:09 Ok, half of it was written for it 16:37:24 I remember running Enlightenment... E14? Something like that. It was very impressive-looking. 16:37:31 Compared to fvwm95 anyway. 16:37:33 I "like" how unity by default comes with 7 out of 10 icons being open office and the rest being pretty much indistinguishable other useless stuff 16:37:40 except the magic button for accessing everything else 16:37:44 Vorpal: use lubuntu <-- uh... LXDE? 16:37:51 http://fvwm95.sourceforge.net/screenshot-full.gif SO HOT 16:37:56 haven't tried that for years, but eh, didn't like it back then 16:37:57 (i.e. useful, but still indistinguishable) 16:38:27 nortti, anyway the only reason I upgrade that laptop is so I can figure out all the issues before I upgrade my modern laptop 16:38:52 nortti, other than that it is just used when I need a serial port 16:39:31 ah ok 16:39:49 use gentoo 16:39:52 Incidentally, couldn't manage to convince pulseaudio (via pavucontrol) to make the laptop to mute the internal speakers while at the same time keeping the optical s/pdif jack unmuted. 16:40:35 Fortunately the volume control doesn't (naturally) affect the s/pdif stream, so I could just turn the volume REAL LOW (but not quite to 0, that muted both) so that the internal speakers were inaudible. 16:40:42 Such an elegant solution. 16:41:41 pulseaudio - makes even alsa look good 16:41:43 http://youtu.be/5Ro9yu6Jces?t=2m33s 16:42:13 fuck pulseaudio 16:42:52 A lot of its functionality belongs in the kernel, but despite that my experiences with it have been positive. 16:43:24 I use oss 16:43:27 ah, http://toastytech.com/guis/ubuntu114dash.png 16:43:36 of course you do nortti 16:44:08 I have never had any problems with it 16:44:53 only 3 OOo icons, but 5 mysterious ones, plus the "home" thing that you somehow have to figure out is the way to access anything else 16:44:54 You can *gasp* add and remove favorite programs to/from the sidebar. 16:45:53 My experiences with PA have been really bland. It's worked well enough, and I like the way I can easily route different streams to different outputs without trying to figure out each program's well-hidden audio device configuration method, but sometimes there's things like the aforementioned. 16:46:00 I guess the gods have deliberated and decided that the only things ubuntu systems are really used for is spreadsheets, presentations, and whatever the big "U" thing is 16:46:17 olsner: It's Ubuntu One, I'm pretty sure. 16:46:25 yes, whatever that is :) 16:46:26 olsner: See, it has a little "1" inside the U. 16:46:28 olsner: What would be the better set of defaults? 16:46:58 ion: dunno, I think the big problem is that everything else is hidden 16:48:03 The home thing is an equally big button on the top of the sidebar nowadays. That’s an old screenshot. 16:48:37 Is “everything hidden” in Windows™ because it’s available from the button in the bottom left corner? http://www.activewin.com/screenshots/windows7/Peek%20-%20After.png 16:49:05 Is it, these days? I thought they got rid of that in 8. 16:49:19 Is “everything” hidden in OSX because it’s available from one of the buttons in the bottom panel? http://www.guidebookgallery.org/pics/gui/desktop/empty/macosx102.png 16:49:48 Is “everything hidden” in Windows™ because it’s available from the button in the bottom left corner? http://www.activewin.com/screenshots/windows7/Peek%20-%20After.png <-- what happened there? 16:49:51 it looks strange 16:50:07 http://windows7themes.net/wp-content/gallery/windows-8-screenshots/Windows_8_screenshot.png 16:50:33 ion, that isn't metro though 16:50:50 Vorpal: There's no such thing as Metro nowdays either. 16:51:03 fizzie, whatever they changed the name to then 16:51:16 "Modern UI". 16:51:25 lol what 16:51:26 Or possibly "Windows 8". 16:51:31 uh 16:51:57 wasn't it "Windows 8 style user experience" ? 16:52:03 Or "Microsoft design language" in place of "Metro design language". 16:52:04 I think a row of icons without text or a search box are both really bad ways to find stuff 16:52:10 ... what both the start menu and mac's application thingy have (last time I checked) is that they give you a big list/grid of everything you can do 16:52:44 AIUI, it's "Start screen" now, and it's full of "tiles". 16:53:23 Some of the tiles are also "live". 16:53:29 (They're "made of people"?) 16:53:39 You get the big list and the search box by clicking on the big Ubuntu logo on the top. There are tooltips for everything in the vertical panel. 16:54:00 tooltips are useless 16:54:25 There's also a Charms bar in 8. 16:54:34 "Start. Get to your Start screen. Or if you're already on Start, you can use this charm to go back to the last app you were in." 16:54:42 Very charming. 16:54:55 I don’t see text in the OSX dock or the Windows quick launcher either. 16:55:39 Nor do they contain a search bar. 16:56:48 -!- elliott has joined. 16:56:51 elliott, hi! 16:56:59 hi 16:56:59 elliott: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it. 16:57:40 elliott, keyboard recommendations? I need a new one. Something ergonomic and not ultra flat. Nothing crazy like the data hand though :P 16:58:06 Vorpal: depends what you mean by ergonomic & your budget 16:58:09 Vorpal: POWER GLOVE. 16:58:43 Vorpal: model m? 16:58:50 Vorpal: however take a look at http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/keyboards.htm 16:58:56 elliott, budget, up to approx 150 USD or so. Not a sharp line 16:59:01 Vorpal: they use cherry brown switches 16:59:16 elliott, and ergonomic: my hands must stop hurting, they are hurting from the temp keyboard I'm using atm 16:59:24 well at least the advantage ones do 16:59:36 i hear good only things about them but haven't used them mind you 16:59:48 elliott, so something that means your wrists can be straight lines. I really liked the old MS Comfort Curve keyboards, but the modern one appears to be ultra flat 16:59:59 kinesis advantage is great 17:00:01 ion: true, the quick launchers don't have text on any os ... but the menu/thing you get to display all applications is usually useful in !unity :) 17:00:12 whereas unity apparently requires me to Search for whatever I want (and I won't know exactly what it's called until after I find it) 17:00:13 kmc, issue: game keybindings appear to be weird on that 17:00:19 kmc, also how long does it take to get used ot 17:00:21 to* 17:00:23 not very long 17:00:25 hm 17:00:32 Vorpal: that's the one i linked btw 17:00:42 elliott, yeah it is loading 17:00:51 if your hands hurt and you use qwerty i also suggest switching to a better layout 17:00:52 they sell an "advanced" "reprogrammable" version but i suspect it does nothing you cannot do more easily in software 17:00:54 that will take longer 17:01:09 nortti: btw model m is pretty much ergonomically terrible 17:01:21 kmc, possible, but my hands never hurt with qwerty except on straight traditional keyboards. 17:01:53 well i'd say it all matters 17:01:59 maybe you only need one or the other change 17:02:02 but both could be better long-term 17:02:21 kmc, since I'm really wide at the shoulders, the small keyboard area of a traditional PC keyboard basically means I need to angle my wrists quite a bit 17:02:29 which is why a curved keyboard is better 17:02:29 i had this experience of changing one thing, and then my hands would eventually start to hurt again, and repeat 17:02:32 yeah 17:02:44 olsner: The per-category installed applications browser isn’t *that* bad, but i admit it could be better. 17:02:46 also look out for awkwardly placed keys that you use often 17:02:51 that's one great thing about the kinesis 17:02:56 kmc, oh? 17:03:01 if kinesis sold an advantage keyboard with topre switches i'd buy it 17:03:05 it'd cost like $9999999 though 17:03:12 ion: maybe it is, but I haven't seen it... how do you find it? 17:03:21 Vorpal: http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/images/kb_adv-blk720x471.jpg note the two thumb clusters 17:03:29 Vorpal: anyway the advantage is $299 rather than $150 though maybe you can get a deal on it somewhere or buy a second-hand one 17:03:34 kmc, hm yeah 17:03:35 those have ctrl, alt, backspace, delete, home, end, enter, space, etc 17:03:50 Vorpal: i seriously doubt you will find a keyboard that (a) has good switches and (b) a non-traditional layout for cheap though 17:03:56 though e.g. i had to bind a second escape key 17:03:59 cause i use vim 17:04:10 i recently learned about https://github.com/alols/xcape which lets you use capslock as ctrl and capslock as esc at the same time 17:04:20 maybe i'll switch over to that 17:04:21 kmc, two questions: have you used it with 1) emacs 2) various modern games? 17:04:22 btw if anyone ever has lots of money 17:04:26 please buy me a datahand 17:04:34 not much of either 17:04:45 kinesis seems pretty good for emacs 17:04:56 ctrl and alt are on opposite sides 17:05:00 olsner: Click on the applications tab in the dash or hit Windows-A and select “Filter results” if it’s not open already. 17:05:00 elliott, I can go higher than $150 sure 17:05:02 another example, on my laptop keyboard there's this awkward 3-key combination i hit all the time 17:05:10 and i'm trying to train myself to use the opposite hand for one of the keys (shift) 17:05:15 so you can ctrl-alt-shift 17:05:21 you just have to pay attention to that stuff 17:05:21 elliott, one issue is that how will I know without trying it 17:05:27 learn hjkl for vim instead of using arrow keys 17:05:27 etc. 17:05:30 not a lot of keyboard shops around here 17:05:34 Vorpal: well you won't 17:05:41 elliott, could be costly thus 17:05:51 FWIW, this is what i see when i hit the Windows™ key or click on the top button in the launcher. It displays the recent applications and files and focuses in the search bar. http://i.imgur.com/VX74S.jpg 17:05:56 Vorpal: you could sell it on ebay or something 17:05:58 elliott, if I knew I would like it I wouldn't hesitate to spend $700, but... 17:06:02 Arrow keys work while in insert mode though 17:06:04 what's $700? 17:06:08 FreeFull: yeah 17:06:11 so i still use them sometimes 17:06:13 kmc, money? 17:06:15 datahand is over $700 i think 17:06:18 but Vorpal was just using a hyperbolic figure 17:06:21 oh, i thought you meant the kinesis advantage 17:06:24 which is like $250 17:06:26 kmc: do you know about the datahand 17:06:26 which is still crazy 17:06:28 no 17:06:34 elliott, I doubt I would like datahand though 17:06:38 oh yeah this thing 17:06:41 kmc: http://img129.imageshack.us/img129/8559/dhhandinunitof2.jpg 17:06:44 ion: oh, but that's the search thingy, is that the same as the applications tab? 17:06:48 you flick really light magnetic switches to type 17:06:56 it even does mouse input 17:07:25 olsner: It’s the button next to the activated home button in the bottom of the windowish thingy. Windows™-A opens it directly. 17:07:37 elliott, I doubt it is very good for playing an FPS with though. Which I sometimes do. 17:07:47 olsner: Hold down the Windows™ key to see the list of keyboard shortcuts. 17:08:00 elliott, what about MS natural keyboards? 17:08:09 I don't know anything about the modern ones 17:08:10 Vorpal: how you sit and where your keyboard is are also super important 17:08:20 but i don't know much about that 17:08:21 Vorpal: here are videos of crazy people using a kinesis advantage https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=kinesis+advantage 17:09:22 I want DataHand , but it’s insanely expensive. 17:09:42 elliott, I'm sure it can be good if you get used to it, but it is a expensive investment and I'm not purely a typist, so it still need to work for other stuff, such as playing games. 17:09:52 ion: hmm, so unity could've avoided most of my rage just by making a different tab of the search thingy open by default? 17:09:56 elliott, so hrrm 17:10:09 i work at a 7 person company and we have 2 people with the kinesis advantage keyboard 17:10:18 and the other guy (not me) has the foot pedals as well 17:10:27 olsner: Perhaps. I’ve been happy with the default. 17:10:29 kmc, what do the foot pedals do? 17:10:38 you can map them to any keypress or macro 17:10:49 Vorpal: well kinesis advantage is just a regular keyboard with a gap... I guess it is bad if you have a game whose shortcuts spill over to the right hand side but you could just rebind those? 17:10:53 kmc, hey I already have some Saitek rudder pedals 17:10:56 :P 17:11:02 Vorpal: I haven't seen any ergonomic-as-in-curved-a-bit keyboards with good switches 17:11:08 maybe i should build a crazy foot keyboard to one-up him 17:11:40 elliott, you can't rebind everything usually. Look at minecraft for example, can't rebind 1-0 for quick slots 17:11:41 Vorpal: kinesis sell other keyboards: http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/max-spec.htm http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/freestyle2.htm but idk what switches they use 17:11:55 well you can rebind things at the OS level if nothing else 17:12:16 or buy the reprogrammable ~kinesis advantage pro~ for only $359! but wait, there's more!! 17:12:22 "The award winning Kinesis Maxim adjustable ergonomic computer keyboard is the only ergonomic keyboard licensed to use the Microsoft "combo" USB/PS2 technology" <-- lol what 17:13:05 shouldn't we all be using chording keyboards by now 17:13:10 elliott, hrrm, no numpads? oh well 17:13:18 Vorpal: numpads are awful anyway :p 17:13:23 i have the advantage pro but it wasn't $359 17:13:26 elliott, except for nethack ;) 17:13:39 Vorpal: hjklyubn 17:13:43 :P 17:13:45 my #1 complaint with the kinesis is no nipple pointer 17:13:58 kmc, a track point would have been nice yes 17:14:32 19:13 < kmc> shouldn't we all be using chording keyboards by now // I am building one 17:14:41 elliott, anyway since I would need to learn to touch type again with something like the advantage... can you get them with Swedish layouts? 17:15:11 yeah i started building one too 17:15:25 ideally i would mold clay or something to match the resting shape of my hands 17:15:43 kmc, so a home built datahand? 17:15:45 no 17:15:53 then what? 17:16:00 Keyboard layouts are fully OS-dependent, as long as the keys have all the right shape 17:16:14 for starters the resting shape would be gripping a vertical rod, not flat horizontally 17:16:28 but it would be a chording keyboard, not a datahand type 17:16:40 just a single switch for each finger 17:16:49 Vorpal: i doubt you can get them with other layouts but you shouldn't be looking at the keyboard if you are learning to touch type anyway :P 17:17:09 elliott, useful to learn where the key is at all I guess 17:17:10 I want one of those keyboards with blank keycaps 17:17:24 Vorpal: i really doubt the adjustment period is that bad, though... if not for the space between the two sides it would just be a regular keyboard with a slope 17:17:37 FreeFull: don't buy a das keyboard 17:17:53 but it makes you a real ninja rockstar 17:18:02 kmc: you won't have enought combos for alphabet+numbers 17:18:04 elliott, the stuff under the thumbs is different but eh 17:18:21 > 2**10 17:18:22 1024.0 17:18:24 you can buy label-less replacement keycaps from places 17:18:38 kmc, where is alt on the advantage? 17:18:39 kmc: ah. you are making 2 hand one? 17:18:43 Switching keycaps around would be a pain 17:18:43 nortti: it would be, yeah 17:18:51 Vorpal: clear solution is to switch to colemak simultaneously 17:18:58 hah 17:19:02 well maybe one hand, plus another hand that is basically a mouse or trackball but has a few other keyboard modifiers 17:19:04 FreeFull: less of a pain than typing on a keyboard as low-quality as das keyboard 17:19:13 My only requirement is that the keyboard is the standard big-enter layout 17:19:17 No small enter please 17:19:17 well it's better-quality than your average rubber dome probably but it's really bad 17:19:24 FreeFull, yeah! 17:19:30 Vorpal: it's on the thumb cluster 17:19:31 one of them 17:19:37 mine are all remapped 17:19:47 I see 17:19:50 actually i think alt isn't but i don't use it very much 17:19:51 i think i would be unable to use an advantage because my hands are too small and i wouldn't be able to use the thumb bits 17:19:52 I used to have a model m but it broke 17:20:01 It was a DIM one anyway 17:20:10 my housemate has a pckeyboard model m successor 17:20:13 it's really really loud 17:20:20 kmc: I am building 1 handed one with state 2 state switch keys that thumb can access 17:20:24 he is one floor above me right now and it sounds like machine gun fire 17:20:31 i think model m is overrated 17:20:33 yeah 17:20:36 the switches are way too heavy 17:20:36 i had one for a while 17:20:46 first an original m and then a pckeyboard one 17:20:51 model m is nice but not as nice as some say 17:21:04 they feel satisfying to use but they aren't really ergonomic in any sense 17:21:27 elliott, so if I would go for something that wasn't such a huge investment, what about a MS natural keyboard, they are certainly cheaper. And the older models at least were quite comfortable 17:21:38 what sort of key caps do they have 17:21:39 DIN* 17:21:44 Not DIM =P 17:21:58 DIM a From 1 To 10 17:22:23 anyway yeah i think having a good chair and desk is at least as important as having a good keyboard 17:22:42 but i fail at these things 17:22:43 Vorpal: aren't those rubber dome 17:22:51 elliott, that is what I'm wondering 17:22:55 i can't really in good conscience recommend a rubber dome keyboard even though i'm typing on one right now 17:23:07 I still think microsoft make the best mice, well traditional mice at least. Never liked trackballs and such 17:23:27 i'm typing on a thinkpad keyboard right now, which is a scissor mechanism above a rubber dome 17:23:34 they're pretty good as far as laptop keyboards go 17:23:38 well yeah 17:23:39 Vorpal: microsoft mice are just rebranded logitech mice 17:24:00 i hear the new one (island layout) is also very good, but i am fearful that they've screwed it all up massively 17:24:04 FreeFull, hm, pretty sure they use a different outer shell too? 17:24:14 however it's true that the internal mechanism of the "classic" keyboard did change all the time 17:24:19 Vorpal: http://www.trulyergonomic.com/store/index.php this uses cherry switches apparentlt 17:24:20 *apparently 17:24:22 that layout is wack tho 17:24:30 btw fuck colemak 17:24:37 oh and it's $229 17:24:40 what's wrong with colemak 17:24:41 elliott, lol, that looks crazy 17:24:45 what's the point of being 50% qwerty 17:24:49 you still need to relearn how to type 17:24:51 kmc: thats not the design goal of colemak 17:24:52 common misconception 17:24:55 and dvoark is more standard, it's in every OS 17:24:58 oh, what is it then 17:25:01 FreeFull, the logitech mice I used haven't been nearly as good as my "Microsoft Comfort Optical Mouse 3000" 17:25:14 FreeFull, which Logitech mouse is that based on then 17:25:17 elliott: looking at that trulyergonomic keyboard makes me feel like i'm drunk 17:25:33 does anyone know how to use one handed dvorak on linux? 17:25:47 kmc: well "easy to learn for qwerty typers" is one of the goals I think but I hear it actually fares better than Dvorak 17:25:49 e.g. "According to carpalx, which is the most extensive research on keyboard layouts done so far, Colemak wins over Dvorak and QWERTY in all different typing effort models." 17:26:02 interesting 17:26:09 kmc: also one of the reasons for the qwerty closeness is to make common computer shortcuts less awful to type compared to dvorak it seems 17:26:20 (note that that quote is from the colemak site so it's obviously biased but i don't see any reason the study itself (http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/carpalx/) would be biased) 17:26:49 http://colemak.com/wiki/index.php?title=FAQ#What.27s_wrong_with_the_Dvorak_layout.3F 17:27:00 if i switched from qwerty it would probably be to colemak 17:27:04 i doubt i can be bothered any time soon though 17:27:09 is this carpalx thing based on actual science (e.g. human physiology) 17:27:42 or is it one of those "i'm a programmer therefore i must be an expert in all fields" things 17:27:49 kmc: RTFA http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/carpalx/?keyboard_evaluation 17:28:01 i was looking for that 17:28:19 so where are the citations 17:28:24 http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/carpalx/?worst_layout 17:28:27 i should switch to TNWMLC 17:28:40 I'm staying with qwerty 17:28:57 The only word that's awkward for me to type on a qwerty keyboard is qwerty itself 17:28:59 elliott: so that FAQ does say "The main problem with Dvorak is that it's too difficult and frustrating to learn for existing QWERTY typists because it's so different from QWERTY." 17:29:33 'Placing 'L' on the QWERTY 'P' position causes excessive strain on the right pinky.' what? i hit that key with the ring finger 17:29:33 right but then it says other things 17:29:37 using the pinky would be absurd 17:29:42 maybe for people with much smaller hands 17:30:23 advantages of colemak: you can type "arse" on the home row 17:30:42 "'F' is on the QWERTY 'Y' position which is a difficult stretch on normal keyboards." so? f is an uncommon key 17:30:47 something will be hard to hit 17:30:57 elliott: i can type shithead 17:31:35 anyway i don't doubt that colemak has some advantages (and dvorak some) but i've never seen anything to outweigh the fact that dvorak is already installed on most computers in the world and i can sit down and switch to it with 15 seconds of effort 17:32:25 elliott: But on a qwerty you can type arse with your left hand 17:32:31 why is it so hard to find info how to use one-handed dvorak on linux? 17:33:09 nortti: Because not many people do that maybe 17:33:11 It's not like using my pinky for typing is excessive stress. 17:34:13 so yeah this carpalx thing has a big complicated model, with zero citations to any existing literature or any empirical studies of the suitability of that model 17:34:17 why are programmers so bad at science 17:34:48 Programmers have this idea that if you can measure it, you should optimize it. 17:34:57 but they can't measure it! 17:35:00 And damn the notion that you need to optimize things you actually want to be optimal. 17:35:06 This is a metric. 17:35:07 kmc: How big is your sample of programmers? 17:35:09 i mean, they are measuring some completely pulled-out-of-ass thing 17:35:11 FreeFull: c.c 17:35:19 Whether or not the metric is relevant is not necessary. :) 17:35:32 We have a metric, now to optimize for it. 17:35:45 Nobody wants the optimal solution, the most optimized solution is where it's at. 17:35:52 yeah 17:35:53 I.e. the one which took longest to optimize. 17:36:08 bonus points if you use something fancy like genetic algorithm even where a simple gradient descent would suffice 17:36:17 apparently this guy invented port knocking 17:36:21 shrug 17:36:32 it's a fine idea that i'm sure many people have thought of 17:38:35 when i was young i coded a GA in Perl to figure out how to most efficiently burn all my pirated music and tv shows onto CD-Rs 17:39:06 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 17:40:58 hmm, this datahand thing - is it actually a good idea to minimize hand/finger movement? 17:41:00 -!- hagb4rd has joined. 17:42:38 kmc, why were you burning them to cd-rs 17:42:52 was this in, like, the early 70s 17:44:16 CD-Rs didn't appear until the late 80s, and burners cost thousands of dollars until the mid-90s 17:47:06 Right now people just buy a bunch of 3TB HDDs and put everything on them 17:47:26 -!- Guest57845 has joined. 17:50:57 -!- nooga has joined. 18:09:45 -!- Guest57845 has quit. 18:21:21 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 18:21:30 Hello 18:21:30 AnotherTest: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it. 18:21:40 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 18:25:20 FreeFull: yeah i just bought 6 of those 18:26:50 it does seem extravagent but having random access to everything without thinking is pretty useful 18:27:53 yeah i used CD-Rs because i was a kid and didn't have money for extravagences like DVD burning 18:27:58 but i did get a DVD burner eventually 18:28:25 also i had an MP3-CD player 18:29:33 FreeFull, I only have two eSATA ports though 18:29:45 and hm two USB3 18:30:19 you can get external enclosures that use multiple drives and plug into a single eSATA port 18:30:33 MP3-CD players were the best 18:30:51 at a time when a nice flash-based MP3 player had 64MB of storage 18:30:53 Funnily enough, I have never owned a DVD burner. 18:31:07 I own a late 90s CD burner still. I use it maybe once a year, if not less. 18:31:08 pikhq, I have one in my current computer 18:31:17 Vorpal: Hotswappable HDD bay 18:31:18 We used to go over to Tallinn to buy DVD-R's; a lot cheaper there, partially due to them not having this extra tax-like "renumeration for private copying" price they add to all empty media, and I think hard drives and such too these days. 18:31:18 you could fit 10x that on a CD-R that cost 50¢ 18:31:21 and a DVD-RAM device in my laptop 18:31:26 It still *works* is the amazing bit. 18:31:28 FreeFull, hm that would work 18:31:34 Does a whole 12x. 18:31:37 (4x on CD-RW) 18:31:46 fizzie: did they sell them duty-free on the ferry 18:31:58 pikhq, but what about DVD reader? 18:32:00 you have that? 18:32:10 Yes, I have a DVD-ROM drive. 18:32:28 DVD-RAM? 18:32:31 Nope. 18:32:47 And I mostly use the DVD drive for CD ripping. (what, so I like FLAC) 18:32:47 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 18:33:00 kmc: Sadly, not that I know; you had to go to a shop on land. (We went to some really obscure "abandoned warehouse"-style-atmosphere place someone had heard of.) 18:33:35 nice 18:34:01 we had this really sketchy traveling computer show in Iowa that would set up shop for a week in the livestock showing barn at the faregrounds 18:34:08 I have about 80% unused of the last stack of 50 "PRINCO" brand DVD-R's I got there. 18:35:26 also Iowa LAN parties were great 18:35:45 because people would come from all over the state, from rural places that had really crappy dial-up or satellite Internet 18:35:49 so they would come to play games 18:36:01 but they would *also* come to run KaZaA in the background at full speed 18:36:17 downloading as much warez and porn as possible over 24 hours 18:36:28 and share it locally as well 18:37:20 Downloading lots of stuff was quite a large part of the Assembly experience too, back before broadband days. Nowadays it's just not so exciting. :/ 18:38:36 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 18:39:13 I want to go to a demoparty 18:40:23 The ones I've been to don't exactly have much qualifications for participation, except for having enough money for the ticket. 18:40:38 So it doesn't sound like it should be a problem. 18:41:44 Getting there in the first place would be the problem for me 18:43:30 Where did you live again? Sweden? 18:44:32 -!- atriq has joined. 18:45:01 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 18:54:05 For the record, the "copying-renumeration-tax" for a single DVD is 0.60 EUR; that's kind of much when the actual price is something like 0.20 EUR/disc. (Price calculated from the first 100-disc spindle from newegg; is perhaps representative.) 19:02:07 wow, that is outrageous 19:02:13 i didn't know they had that in not-US 19:02:20 but it makes sense because the US writes copyright law for the rest of the world 19:03:38 We started it in 1984; the US apparently in 1992. 19:03:44 (And Germany in 1960s.) 19:03:48 with tape?? 19:04:09 Yes, it used to be called "kasettimaksu". 19:04:16 haha 19:04:21 home taping is killing music! 19:04:27 Applied to C cassettes and VHS tapes, I believe. 19:05:02 Help 19:05:09 I have a cigar 19:05:21 Currently in Finland it also applies to just regular external USB HDs, no matter what you're going to be storing there; 9 EUR for 50-250 GB; 12 EUR for 250-1000 GB; 18 EUR for > 1 TB. 19:05:24 you're gonna go far 19:05:42 you're gonna fly high, you're never gonna die you're gonna make it if you try they're gonna *love* you 19:05:45 (But it does not apply if you buy a external USB HD chassis and a regular SATA drive separately.) 19:05:47 fizzie: Re. the DVDs: fi.wikipedia says the tax is 74% of the price 19:05:55 kmc: help 19:06:22 Deewiant: I think they've changed the numbers; those are from 2007. 19:06:40 Deewiant, 74%!? 19:06:43 that is insane 19:06:45 Deewiant: The 0.60 EUR/disc came from http://www.tulli.fi/fi/suomen_tulli/julkaisut_ja_esitteet/kasikirjat/rajoituskasikirja/liitetiedostot/hyvitysmaksu.pdf that's dated December 2011. 19:07:09 fizzie: It's correct, the 2007 bit is just for the price of the disc without the tax 19:08:11 Deewiant: The latest is http://www.hyvitysmaksu.fi/teosto/hymysivut.nsf/0/0f085260b8604de9c22573b1003c22ec/$FILE/Asetus2012_FI.pdf and it too says 0.60 EUR per disc. 19:08:24 Deewiant: Unlike fi.wikipedia, which claims 0.73. 19:08:36 fizzie: It says "arvonlisäveroineen", and 0.6 * 1.22 is ~0.73 19:08:41 atriq: I'm with kmc on this. 19:08:46 Deewiant: Oh; right, then. 19:09:04 atriq: why do you have a cigar 19:09:07 fizzie: Although shouldn't it be 1.23 these days? In which case it's off by a cent 19:09:19 Deewiant: I think it should, yes. 19:09:20 Unless they're rounding down; whatever 19:09:33 Maybe it's not all that important. 19:09:42 In any case, the non-tax price of a disc is probably lower so it's probablby more than 74% these days. 19:09:46 -b 19:10:50 Deewiant: As mentioned, my first hit for a 100-disc spindle from abroad was 0.20 EUR/disc. I'm sure you could find cheaper too. 19:11:10 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 19:11:25 (Or 24.99 USD / 100 discs, to be exact; it maps to something pretty close.) 19:11:33 elliott, ironic birthday present 19:11:42 atriq: Sometimes it's just a cigar. 19:12:28 how is it ironic? 19:12:30 fizzie: They cite (a broken link to) mbnet's hintaseuranta, which would probably have a bit higher price due to the cost of importing. (I don't know how they found a tax-free price there, though.) 19:12:45 Is atriq a tee-totaller? 19:12:49 does the box say it's actually a pipe? 19:12:49 fizzie: do they have computers in Finland 19:13:00 olsner: :D 19:13:07 pikhq, nah, I just don't like the smell of tobacco 19:13:10 elliott: I've heard there's, like, five. 19:13:15 Or alcohol 19:13:18 elliott: No, they have konnpyuuta. 19:13:22 'irony' means "bad ideas done on purpose" these days 19:13:41 I'm effectively teetotal, but it's personal preference, not ideological 19:13:52 Except I like wine on occassion 19:13:56 there's a guy in my analysis class who smokes a pipe 19:14:11 atriq: Yeah, there's a rather big difference between "don't like it" and "I am morally opposed". :) 19:14:13 he looks quite dashing but i always gag when he walks past 19:14:37 Someone I know got ironically given a pipe for his birthday 19:15:15 I had a fried who claimed to be a teetotaller because he was only drinking a little 19:15:17 sometimes i wonder if i should take up smoking e-cigarettes 19:15:25 olsner: Silly. 19:16:20 There was a couple with some... things, that I think were e-cigarettes; they looked really scifi, and suspicious, and I'm still not quite sure what was up there. 19:16:54 yeah "electronic cigarettes" sounds like something a lazy sci-fi writer would invent to sound more future-y 19:16:59 They didn't look like regular cigarettes, which I understand some (many?) attempt to look like. 19:17:04 digital water 19:17:11 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 19:17:12 digital bath 19:17:31 I think they kind of looked like light saber handles from Star Wars. Except they kept smoking them. 19:17:34 i like the effects of nicotine on occasion, but i don't want to smoke tobacco 19:17:35 cig-e-rettes 19:18:19 when i owned a vape i should have tried vaping tobacco in it 19:18:34 that's what an e-cig is basically 19:18:46 also i wonder if you can make e-joints by analogy 19:18:56 temperature needs to be adjusted 19:18:56 A combination lightsaber/e-cigarette: good idea, or best idea? (Just remember which end is which.) 19:19:21 fizzie, how would they work, these e-cigs? 19:19:33 Vorpal: I think electricity is involved. 19:19:46 fizzie, is tobacco still involved? 19:20:01 Not as far as I know. 19:20:10 hm 19:20:17 But really, you're asking a guy who's still not sure whether the only ones I've seen were e-cigs or lightsabers. 19:20:35 hah 19:20:36 true 19:20:41 It just vaporises something, I know that much. 19:20:48 well both do that yeah 19:21:08 Yes, perhaps the combined model can share some parts. 19:21:17 given that lightsabers are lightsaber-handle-sized and e-cigs are cigarette-sized, it should be fairly easy to tell them apart 19:21:37 it vaporizes 'a propylene glycol- or glycerin- or polyethylene glycol-based liquid solution ' 19:21:53 olsner: Maybe they've made thinner handles these days. Anyway, they weren't made up like fake cigarettes. 19:22:16 technically everything fizzie says is made up 19:22:38 OK fizzie but you're going to look like a right tit if you're trying to smoke a lightsabre handle 19:22:44 kmc, and that gives the same result as nicotine? 19:23:05 presumably, the solution contains nicotine 19:23:07 Vorpal, it contains nicotine, so... yes. 19:23:11 ah right 19:23:11 Oh, there's a flaw in Clojure that I thought of, but I may have mentioned it before 19:23:30 Sgeo_: i don't think you've ever mentioned Clojure here, actually 19:23:48 I like that wikipedia article, it's so encyclopædic: "Newer e cigarettes are using the two piece design now. You now have a battery and a disposable cartomizer. The old three piece method was bad because the cartridge did not hold much "e-juice" and the atomizers were burning up after one or two refills. With the new two piece you get a better "throat hit" and plenty of vapor." 19:24:18 The tone is *exactly* like, say, Encyclopædia Britannica. 19:24:41 http://www.thedailychronic.net/2012/8422/thc-e-cig-goes-to-market/ 19:24:50 encyclopædophile 19:27:07 derpyclopædia 19:29:00 i actually find it remarkable how consistent the tone is on wikipedia 19:29:13 given the number of editors 19:29:20 there are some aberrations like this article, of course 19:29:58 but mostly people converge to a shared style in a way that's almost creepy 19:30:09 It's the mind control, I'd say. 19:30:18 another explanation is that there are many authors but few editors; people add content and then the core editors massage the style 19:30:24 I think what they had were maybe something a tiny bit like http://unlimitedecigs.com/store/products/mega-ego-ce5-e-cigarette although I didn't really get a close look. 19:30:32 which i think is supported by the data on edits 19:30:43 But that thing has some slight lightsabreish vibes in there. 19:30:49 at one point http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elektrichka was less of an encyclopedia article and more a guide on how to ride trains without paying 19:31:04 man i would buy that thing just for how cool it looks 19:31:26 i rode a suburban train in riga without paying so maybe i've been dog-riding 19:32:19 no kmc, you've been train-riding 19:32:27 the differences are at once subtle and glaring 19:33:25 also in warszawa the gap between train and platform was like 30 cm or more, wtf 19:33:52 all the more space to get out if you fall down! 19:34:17 trains are scary 19:34:27 fizzie: including 2 MEGA EGO batteries, nice 19:34:41 olsner: Just in case you're having ego problems. 19:35:25 Apparently you can have one of 14 different colors for that middle translucent bit, too. 19:35:40 how do you know if you're running low on ego? 19:36:03 There's a handy scale printed on top of the EGO-CE5 Cartomizer. 19:36:22 (Also available in 14 different colors!) 19:36:32 wow, red bull flavored nicotine liquid 19:36:36 just what i've always wanted 19:39:59 I kind of like the taste of Red Bull, I think 19:40:10 Although only had Red Bull twice 19:40:16 I was on a train today 19:43:36 i cemented my hatred of sports people today 19:45:38 -!- monqy has joined. 19:47:45 Any in particular? 19:47:50 just in general 19:49:38 how fashionably geeky to point out your distaste for sports and its followers 19:51:44 olsner: how is your os 19:53:06 elliott: how's @? 19:53:44 I remember @ 19:54:52 olsner: better than your os 20:00:07 "sports people"? 20:00:14 atriq: what kind of train? 20:00:18 what was the track gauge 20:00:34 -!- Taneb has joined. 20:00:42 -!- atriq has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 20:01:22 "How much does this building weigh?" is a standard question to ask on the company excursions organized by the CS student "guild"/organization. 20:01:42 I don't know how many times there's been a serious answer. 20:02:00 ham! 20:03:09 fizzie: 3. 20:03:16 10 decibuildings 20:03:19 fizzie: It weighs 1 Biru 20:03:35 you should organize your excursions to happen after the group of students who study the calculation of weights of buildings 20:06:35 how fashionably geeky to point out your distaste for sports and its followers 20:06:44 hey now i'm cool with sports and its followers 20:06:48 it's sports people i hate 20:07:05 Phantom_Hoover, what do you mean with sports people? 20:07:16 you know, sports people 20:07:22 Phantom_Hoover, like athletes? or sport nerds? 20:07:23 the people who are always jogging everywhere 20:07:27 and are in permanent tracksuits 20:07:29 aaah 20:07:31 those 20:07:32 yeah 20:07:44 and emanate an aura of condescending motivation 20:08:06 Phantom_Hoover, also walking with ski poles or whatever they are called in English 20:08:15 Phantom_Hoover, I'm wearing a jokey science shirt 20:08:17 Am I scum? 20:08:24 It says "Science gives me a hadron" 20:08:51 no, you're just bad 20:09:12 one of my analysis teachers seems to make a point of coming in in novelty t-shirts 20:09:26 i only noticed it a week or so ago though 20:09:59 I often wear a Homestuck shirt 20:10:04 Phantom_Hoover, so what is your opinion about people using ski poles when walking? 20:10:09 s/about/on/ 20:10:21 that's a good shirt 20:10:38 but do you wear a homestuck skirt/ 20:10:42 kmc, it has similar origins to my cigar 20:10:45 Phantom_Hoover, would if I coulsd 20:10:48 * could 20:11:29 i have a shirt from nasa with some terribly-typeset equations for escape velocity on it as a gift 20:12:01 i always get told i look stupid when i wear it though 20:12:27 Haters gonna hate 20:12:34 Oh god I just said that 20:12:37 fuck 20:12:38 Almost unironically 20:12:38 you 20:12:44 Fuck me indeed 20:13:00 i thought you weren't into that sort of thing 20:13:15 So did I 20:13:22 But Tumblr is doing bad things to me 20:13:22 help 20:13:54 haters gonna make some valid points 20:14:11 Now I'm gonna suscribe to the Haskell tag 20:14:18 wow man maybe you should leave tumblr alone if it's going to change your sexuality 20:17:35 Taneb: You pervosexual! 20:17:40 :O 20:21:56 weirdophile 20:25:16 olsner: Do you suppose those people that do architecture do that kind of thing? 20:25:24 fizzie: no idea 20:25:34 We've got a department of that. 20:25:45 And maybe some other kind of building engineering thing. 20:28:02 -!- constant has changed nick to function. 20:28:20 "The Master’s Programme in Structural Engineering provides students with a solid knowledge of structural engineering and mechanics, building physics, ageing and life time management of structures, construction economics and management as well as building materials technology, foundation engineering or building services technology." 20:28:37 It doesn't sound too far off. 20:29:03 (Sadly, the companies selected for the excursions tend to differ.) 20:31:46 Taneb: these fireworks are lam 20:31:47 Taneb: these fireworks are lame 20:32:09 actually all fireworks are lame so that is not saying much 20:32:10 Hence (lam -> lame) 20:32:59 elliott, possibly you are not the best person to evaluate firework quality then 20:34:02 actually all fireworks are lame so that is not saying much <-- yeah, they are kind of cool the first time, but the novelty quickly fades 20:35:08 fireworks in hexham? 20:35:39 the inhabitants of hexham have given up and are trying to blow the whole thing up 20:39:44 Yes, the city of Roppiki Buta. 20:40:30 (ro'hîki hùta) 20:41:02 no some fireworks are fucking sweet 20:41:06 obviously elliott has never seen proper fireworks 20:41:19 e.g. the one at the end of the fringe 20:53:45 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 20:55:15 pikhq: six pigs? 20:57:24 olsner, hex ham 20:58:28 three times as much pig as twin pigs 20:58:36 Piggies! 21:00:21 Six Pigs is probably like the UK version of Six Flags. (Which I understand is a kinda thing.) 21:11:05 Six Sheep is the Welsh version, of course. 21:11:51 olsner: Yes, six pigs is hexham 21:12:06 Well, maybe it should be Roppiki Butaniku 21:12:25 六匹豚 does look awesome though 21:13:16 !rot13 hexham 21:13:18 urkunz 21:13:32 oh, that must be german hexham 21:13:32 Sounds black speech 21:13:56 how appropriate for a place that was formerly slang for hell 21:14:13 Urkunz sounds like a site of a nuclear accident. 21:16:12 it might be something like chwechmochyn in welsh 21:17:29 that sounds like the site of a welsh nuclear accident 21:17:31 shestsvineygrad 21:18:11 pikhq, so does japanese not have a word for pigmeat 21:18:55 "豚肉"? 21:22:00 pikhq, apparently that means 6 4 pig? 21:27:14 !rot13 kurloz 21:27:14 xheybm 21:28:36 ^scramble hexham 21:28:37 hxamhe 21:28:54 fungot: say something about hexham 21:28:54 olsner: she needs to know. do you agree with me, i'd probably be good at that too 21:29:30 ^style 21:29:30 Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube 21:29:31 ^rot13 Kurzweil 21:29:31 Xhemjrvy 21:29:34 lol 21:29:36 i knew it 21:30:03 !rot13 hxamhe 21:30:04 uknzur 21:30:31 ^scramble urkunz 21:30:32 uknzur 21:31:01 stop repeating egobot, fungot! 21:31:02 quintopia: but i wouldn't 21:32:49 fungot: Wouldn't repeat, or wouldn't stop? 21:32:50 fizzie: like that, although i have no idea what the problem might be 21:32:56 pikhq: do you know anything about logrotate 21:38:40 -!- Nisstyre has quit (Quit: Leaving). 21:40:28 -!- Nisstyre has joined. 21:44:27 Phantom_Hoover: "豚肉" is the word for pig meat. 21:47:31 -!- Vorpal has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 21:48:20 There exists a thing called OK! Magazine. 21:48:44 Yes 21:48:48 There's also Hello! 21:49:06 Phantom_Hoover: Also, 匹 is not 四, they just look similar. 21:50:31 Sgeo_: i don't understand 21:55:05 also there's Heat 21:55:14 -!- elliott has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 22:05:35 * Phantom_Hoover quickly regrets reading the wp articles on vcjd 22:06:39 -!- elliott has joined. 22:10:47 -!- quintopia has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 22:12:11 -!- quintopia has joined. 22:12:23 Hold on 22:12:26 I'm Taneb 22:12:30 When did this happen 22:12:57 yes 22:13:33 You've been a Taneb for more than two hours now. 22:13:43 Wow 22:13:48 Wierd 22:13:52 *Werid 22:13:56 **Weird 22:13:59 tan ebb 22:14:00 I'll get there eventually 22:14:01 There's a magazine called "Wired". 22:14:04 Yes 22:14:09 And an esolang called Wierd 22:14:34 I'm gonna get some sleep now 22:14:36 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving). 22:15:24 it's only 22:00... 22:17:19 @localtime elliott 22:17:20 Local time for elliott is Sun Nov 4 22:17:19 22:17:22 netcraft confirms it 22:17:26 Well, the 22 part 22:18:31 my UTC offset changed today! 22:20:22 @localtime kmc 22:20:25 Local time for kmc is Sun Nov 4 17:21:26 2012 22:21:01 Finland's UTC offset changed last weekend. 22:24:02 woooo 22:30:04 -!- Bike has quit (Quit: leaving). 22:51:49 -!- Bike has joined. 22:56:06 wait 22:56:11 Gregor doesn't have voice any mor 22:56:13 e 23:01:09 -!- ais523 has joined. 23:13:18 -!- zzo38 has joined. 23:26:54 So........ 23:26:58 Do you like this?????? 23:27:31 yes zzo38 23:27:39 -!- Arc_Koen has joined. 23:32:23 I like this-as 23:32:35 (Disclaimer: Previous statement should not necessarily be regarded as correct) 23:37:03 zzo38: i don't understand 23:48:00 nooodl_: Which one did you not understand? 23:48:12 Do you like this?????? 23:48:15 what is "this" 23:48:39 It is. 23:48:45 Yes it is. 23:51:13 hi 23:56:44 Which esolangs can be implemented using hardware description language?