←2012-11-10 2012-11-11 2012-11-12→ ↑2012 ↑all
00:07:23 <elliott> kmc: i have a quote you will like (hate)
00:09:19 <elliott> kmc: never mind i misinterpreted it
00:09:24 <olsner> is it a good quote? is it funny?
00:09:34 <atriq> "Goodnight"
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00:09:53 <elliott> olsner: are you funny
00:11:41 <olsner> elliott: am I good?
00:11:42 <Vorpal> <ais523> Vorpal: hmm, perhaps the Web would be better off if images couldn't set cookies <-- yes
00:12:16 <elliott> olsner: yes
00:15:19 <zzo38> I always use the script for sprunge instead of entering the full command.
00:16:24 <zzo38> It is also possible to make a bookmarklet for sprunge too in case you need it for some reason.
00:19:02 <zzo38> What other kind of dice rules might you use other than what I have? /([-+])([0-9]*)(d[0-9]+|)(g-?[0-9]+|)([dk][hl][0-9]*|)/ (negation) (number of dice or constant) (number of sides) (glitch; replaces with constant if half or more dice come up 1) (drop/keep high/lowest dice) Should there be other options available?
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00:38:25 <zzo38> Although I like the sprunge pastebin, it has one problem, which is because of the Google server which sends incorrect responses to headerless requests.
00:39:31 <zzo38> Can you tell Google to fix this?
00:40:13 <fizzie> Only supporting HTTP/1.1 does not sound like such a terrible faux pas these days.
00:40:14 <zzo38> You could also tell the people who made sprunge to move it off of Google; that is another way.
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00:40:47 <Vorpal> my current phone today is way more advanced than the computer I got 12 years ago. I wonder if my phone 12 years into the future will be way more advanced than my current desktop
00:41:08 <zzo38> I don't know either.
00:41:20 <Vorpal> it is an interesting question though
00:41:40 <zzo38> Can you bet on it?
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00:43:26 <shachaf> Vorpal: But is it more advanced at entering text?!
00:43:44 <Vorpal> shachaf, well, SwiftKey is kind of nice...
00:43:56 <Vorpal> shachaf, but sure the physical size of the screen and keyboard are smaller
00:44:01 <fizzie> I understand there are quite "general" betting sites where you can bet on very many things. Possibly not on Vorpal's phone in particular, but phones in general.
00:44:22 <Vorpal> I don't think I would bet money on anything
00:44:24 <olsner> you can probably bet on anything with a browser
00:44:24 <zzo38> I intend to make the computer, and one of the things I intend to make it is not to be overcomplicated, while still allowing it to run at reasonable performance and other features.
00:44:30 <shachaf> Vorpal: But the resolution is higher!
00:44:39 <Vorpal> shachaf, yes
00:44:51 <Vorpal> shachaf, that old computer was 800x600, my phone is 720p
00:45:34 <fizzie> longbets.org, for example; though the topics must be "societally or scientifically important".
00:46:11 <Vorpal> my phone has more CPU cores, more RAM, faster CPU, more non-volatile storage and a battery that lasts longer
00:46:12 <shachaf> longcats.org
00:46:13 <zzo38> This computer is codenamed POWERXY but it probably won't be its actual name.
00:46:14 <nortti> zzo38: what is overcomplicated or reasonable performance?
00:46:23 <fizzie> "What kind of a phone Vorpal has in 12 years" might not be societally important. Arguably.
00:47:05 <olsner> I wonder if societally is actually a word
00:47:08 <Vorpal> fizzie, well the question could be generalised to "the current generation of PC gaming computers" and "the state of the art smartphones in 12 years time"
00:47:12 <zzo38> nortti: Like, I will omit some things not needed such as the overly complicated x86 or ARM9 (ARM2 is sufficient, I think), omit USB, omit HDMI, omit too much complicated built-in software (you can load it externally instead), etc
00:48:00 <Vorpal> nortti, oh god you got zzo started on a rant
00:48:26 <elliott> http://longbets.org/601/
00:48:29 <elliott> best bet
00:49:32 <zzo38> Other than those things, other features I plan is a complete manual (including internals and pinouts), open source hardware as much as possible and open source software 100% (for built-in software; external software may or may not be), jumpers on mainboard, and currently the plan of the external ports:
00:50:55 <fizzie> Why isn't http://longbets.org/291/ ruled on yet?
00:51:07 <zzo38> * CD/DVD (read-only) * Expansion port * Audio in and out, stereo for both * Composite video out * Component video out * Digi-RGB out * 4x 33SS input port * Compact flash * Panel with display and buttons
00:51:22 <zzo38> * Infrared receiver
00:51:27 <elliott> fizzie: probably because longbets seems sort of dead
00:51:29 <fizzie> "If the US has not descended into Open Despotism, Pseudo-Democracy or Anarchy before the incumbent party holds its 2012 Presidential nominating convention, the challenger wins."
00:51:41 <fizzie> Given that they had the elections already, I assume that happened too?
00:51:50 <elliott> fizzie: well you could argue pseudo-democracy
00:51:53 <elliott> just sayin'
00:52:07 <zzo38> Maybe you should bet on your phone in a casino
00:52:17 <zzo38> Instead of on the computer.
00:52:24 <pikhq_> elliott: "Descended" suggests "a different status from what existed at the time the bet was made".
00:52:27 <fizzie> The definition used there did involve not using a conventional nominating convention, though.
00:52:27 <Vorpal> I'm not a betting person
00:52:52 <fizzie> I wonder how's it going with their clock, though.
00:53:02 <pikhq_> In government form, the US is utterly identical to that of 2007 US.
00:53:17 <ais523> except for different people?
00:53:44 <ais523> btw, what are the party allegiances of the two supreme court justices who are likely to retire this term?
00:54:05 <elliott> I like this one: http://longbets.org/129/ -- wherein the challenger (Brian Eno!) does it out of cynicism rather than disagreement.
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00:55:38 <ais523> elliott: well he still thought he'd win
00:55:40 <ais523> just he didn't /want/ to win
00:55:48 <ais523> so I guess you could call it insurance
00:56:36 <elliott> ais523: well, I mean that you'd expect someone challenging to think the Republicans are just great and of course they'll win because they're awesome.
00:56:57 <elliott> ais523: it's not really insurance, since the money goes to charity :P
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00:57:18 <Arc_Koen> hello
00:57:21 <elliott> well, I suppose Eno might think a Republican government might threaten the San Francisco Exploratorium
00:57:38 <zzo38> Built-in software might include: * Date/time * Filesystem drivers * Keyboard translation * Play audio CD * Forth interpreter * BASIC interpreter * TCP/IP driver * DVI to PCL and all of it runs on a single-tasking operating system.
00:58:00 <zzo38> O, and it will also include a copy of the printed manual on the hard drive in case you want to print another copy.
00:58:25 <zzo38> At least to me this seem reasonable; maybe you it isn't I don't know!!!
00:59:41 <Vorpal> zzo38, no SCTP support? No USB?
00:59:50 <Vorpal> pretty useless and dated system that
01:00:10 <Vorpal> also who uses CDs any more
01:01:18 <zzo38> Vorpal: Correct; no USB. I think many complication and problem with USB, so instead it is 33SS (my own much simpler protocol, which will be documented; it has other advantages too such as self-cleaning). The DVD drive can load CD too, so even if you don't use CD, it has CD.
01:02:15 <Vorpal> zzo38, I don't care about DVD or CD, I do however require USB
01:02:21 <Vorpal> clearly not a computer for me that
01:02:50 <zzo38> If you don't want DVD/CD then unscrew and open it and remove the optical drive.
01:03:34 <Vorpal> won't give me USB
01:03:41 <olsner> Vorpal: obviously you don't want USB
01:03:53 <Vorpal> zzo38, also what GPU will you use?
01:04:06 <Vorpal> zzo38, something with OpenGL 4 support I hope?
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01:04:14 <zzo38> Vorpal: Well, but it will make a space that you can add a USB or whatever.
01:04:43 <Vorpal> zzo38, also how many cores will the CPU have?
01:04:53 <Vorpal> oh and infrared? What is the point of IRDA?
01:05:11 <Vorpal> bluetooth and wifi are much more useful
01:05:26 <Vorpal> no ethernet mentioned either?
01:06:03 <FireFly> I wish more smartphones would ship with built-in FM transmitter
01:06:08 <zzo38> Vorpal: I intend to design my own PPU and APU with its own instruction sets; there is no need to compile C programs on the PPU/APU; but the CPU is a slight variant of ARM2 so you can compile C programs on it. Currently, design for CPU with single core but that might change. Infrared is for remote control. But I just forgot to mention ethernet.
01:06:46 <Vorpal> zzo38, PPU? Also the Arithmetic Processing Unit (APU) is a part of the CPU, no?
01:06:47 <zzo38> The number of cores of CPU and that stuff depend much on things I currently do not know.
01:07:02 <zzo38> Vorpal: In this case, PPU means Picture Processing Unit, and APU is Audio Processing Unit.
01:07:02 <Vorpal> FireFly, mine has that, it is kind of bad though. My old nokia had a less noisy one
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01:07:24 <Vorpal> zzo38, so what about high performance 3D graphics?
01:07:31 <zzo38> (Unlike the Famicom, though, they will be much more powerful and have instruction sets.)
01:08:12 <zzo38> Vorpal: High quality 3D graphics is not a priority. But I may see if it will be possible.
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01:08:21 <FireFly> In what way would a PPU differ from a GPU?
01:08:55 <zzo38> FireFly: The name, I guess.
01:09:34 <zzo38> The CPU is I intend to make a few modifications to the OpenCores Amber core, so GCC (but not LLVM) can compile programs targeting it, and it runs faster than an actual ARM2.
01:11:02 <fizzie> I have a FM transmitter in this phone, but I haven't managed to test it even once.
01:11:03 <zzo38> LLVM only support ARM7 and newer but it may be able to be modified to support ARM2 as well.
01:11:21 <fizzie> Reportedly the signal strength is quite frequency-dependent, due to physics.
01:11:54 <zzo38> Wifi and bluetooth can be useful although may be connected using the expansion port. However, this is just plan so far so maybe it will have built-in, but if it does have such thing built-in it will have a hardware switch to disable them.
01:12:09 <Vorpal> <FireFly> I wish more smartphones would ship with built-in FM transmitter <-- oh I thought that was a typo for "reciever"
01:12:13 <Vorpal> then I guess I don't have one
01:12:35 <Vorpal> receiver* even
01:12:47 <Vorpal> I didn't know there were phones with transmitters for that
01:12:52 <FireFly> Nokia N900 has a transmitter--it's useful for streaming music to the car radio
01:12:55 <fizzie> I haven't tried the receiver either. :p
01:13:14 <Vorpal> FireFly, why not just use bluetooth for that? Or a cable
01:13:17 <fizzie> This is a N900; but there are other phones with the feature.
01:13:27 <Vorpal> FireFly, the car I'm currently driving most support both
01:13:35 <fizzie> Requires no support from the car radio is the point, of course.
01:13:40 <Vorpal> well okay
01:13:44 <FireFly> Vorpal: because most car radios I've used only support CD and FM
01:13:47 <Vorpal> fizzie, but modern cars have that
01:13:56 <zzo38> But don't you have AM radio too?
01:14:01 <FireFly> Eh, probably
01:14:02 <Vorpal> FireFly, modern Volvo V70 has that feature at least
01:14:18 <fizzie> Quite a few people still drive cars that are not terribly modern.
01:14:25 <Vorpal> well yeah
01:14:33 <Vorpal> it is awesome to drive modern cars though
01:15:21 <fizzie> The N900 also has a consumer-IR transmitter; lirc can use it to drive just about anything with an IR remote control, or so I believe. Haven't managed to bother trying it out either.
01:16:18 <Vorpal> heh
01:16:20 <fizzie> ISTR there was a program to run through the "power off" key signals of the whole lirc remote db, so that if there's an annoying TV screen in a public place, you can just turn it off.
01:16:46 <Vorpal> fizzie, very nice
01:17:00 <zzo38> There is some devices for such thing, however I may prefer to mute the TV
01:17:14 <Vorpal> should be easy too
01:17:27 <fizzie> Yes, the apps might support that too.
01:17:32 <zzo38> Since usually only I don't like it because of the noise, and other people may still want to watch TV.
01:17:36 <FireFly> I never used the IR feature a lot
01:18:39 <fizzie> There's a single IR-controllable device here at home, so it's not terribly useful. (Well, possibly a second one too, though not in use.)
01:19:31 <fizzie> People with piles of them that don't want to buy a separate multi-purpose remote might find it more useful.
01:20:37 <Vorpal> I think I have 3 such deviceds
01:20:39 <zzo38> At my house we have two TV sets, one DVD player, one DVD/VCR combination, which are currently connected and which use infrared. (There may be others which are not currently connected so are not in use.)
01:20:40 <Vorpal> devices*
01:20:42 <Vorpal> not a lot anyway
01:21:04 <Vorpal> one TV, one DVD/VHS and one radio with IR based remotes
01:22:26 <fizzie> There's a receiver/amplifier kind of thing, and that's about it. (There's also a DVB-T USB stick with an IR receiver, but it's not in use since we stopped paying the TV access fee; next year it switches to a tax-funded scheme so maybe we'll dig it out though.)
01:22:51 <fizzie> In any case the stick'd be in a computer, and you don't need IR to speak to one of those. (Usually.)
01:24:23 <fizzie> It came with one of those really cheap-looking tiny plastic no-feel-to-the-buttons remotes.
01:25:22 <Vorpal> heh
01:25:28 <fizzie> (But it did work with lirc so it's possible to use anything else too. Assuming close-enough carrier frequency anyway.)
01:25:36 <zzo38> The DVD/VCR can playback and record on both drives, even simultaneously. If we want to record a TV show to be able to watch later we will use the VHS, but if we want to keep it or transfer it to computer will use DVD. Once my brother want to put a recording of Super Smash Bros. Brawl so we recorded it on a DVD video and then copy to his computer.
01:28:25 <fizzie> (The consumer IR receivers tend to have some kind of hardware filter so that they sense only a particular carrier freq (typically 38 kHz) signal, presumably to make them less suspectible to noise from other IR sources.
01:28:58 <FreeFull> Sunlight is an IR source, so stuff that doesn't discriminate can have problems with that
01:30:18 <fizzie> Yeah; it's just not always the same frequency, so there can be (signal strength) problems mixing remotes and receivers.
01:31:06 <Vorpal> just make the remote blast on a lot of frequencies?
01:31:38 <fizzie> But both the remotes and the receivers are fixed-frequency devices, is the problem.
01:32:06 <fizzie> Certainly if you're making a multifunction remote, that's a possibility.
01:32:43 <fizzie> But not for repurposing an old remote for device X, while having a receiver scavenged from device Y.
01:32:43 <Vorpal> indeed
01:32:55 <Vorpal> oh well, good night
01:33:26 <fizzie> I remember making a lirc remote file for a really old TV remote I had from a smoke-came-out-years-earlier TV set; happened to work out well enough with whatever I was using as the receiver.
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01:41:57 <Sgeo> @ping
01:41:58 <lambdabot> pong
01:42:09 <Sgeo> Yet my client claims 9.3 second lag
01:42:10 <Sgeo> Or was
01:42:12 <Sgeo> idgi
01:42:57 <Bike> lag's imprecise, since it checks by pinging, and it only does that occasionally
01:54:58 <zzo38> Maybe this computer I design will include in packaging: * Game controllers * RJ45 cables (used for ethernet and 33SS) * Keyboard * CompactFlash card * Complete manual (with tabs) * Remote control * DVD with many games included * RCA cables * [If you want printer, mouse, screwdriver, extra game controller, etc you have to get it separately.]
01:58:14 <zzo38> Also such things as USB adapter, NES/Famicom cartridge adapter, product catalog, floppy drive, you also need to get it separately, in some cases must be third party, or you can built it yourself from publicly available files and schematics.
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02:55:43 * pikhq_ looks forward to *somebody* being pissed at him
02:56:11 <pikhq_> "So, yeah. I'm bisexual. I'm an atheist. Pitchforks on the right, high fives on the left, please."
02:57:03 <zzo38> Voting for Famicompo is now open.
02:57:27 <quintopia> where is famicompo
03:00:48 <zzo38> http://famicompo-mini.com/compo/vol9/
03:01:57 <zzo38> For voting, click one of the bottom two triangles (for the section you want to vote: original/cover) in the header, select "Entry" and fill the form, but first download and listen to the files.
03:05:46 <quintopia> i dont read the kanjisauce
03:06:57 <zzo38> Some of them are English, though; submissions and comments are accepted in English and in Japanese.
03:06:59 <pikhq_> 漢字ソース読める。
03:07:24 <pikhq_> (kannsì so-su yomeru. kanji sōsu yomeru. I read the kanjisauce.)
03:07:52 <zzo38> However, if you download file and use program to play .NSF (NES/Famicom emulator can usually be used for this), you can listen to music.
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03:14:22 <Arc_Koen> anyone here has a cool simple arithmetical function implementing logical not (0 -> 1 everything else -> 0) with +-*/% ?
03:15:26 <Sgeo> Does using absolute value count as arithmetical
03:15:27 <Sgeo> ?
03:15:41 <Sgeo> Oh, I guess not
03:15:54 <Arc_Koen> no, i doesn't :(
03:16:05 <zzo38> You can use exponent (0^(0^x)) but I don't know using those operation.
03:16:15 <zzo38> I mean (0^x)
03:16:42 <zzo38> (0^(0^x)) make 0 to 0 and nonzero to 1
03:17:32 <Arc_Koen> hmm nice
03:17:46 <Arc_Koen> though not gonna solve my problem
03:18:04 <FreeFull> I thought 0^0 was undefined
03:18:05 <Arc_Koen> but I think I can work my way without it
03:18:14 <Arc_Koen> FreeFull: it is, unless you define it
03:18:26 <Arc_Koen> and good people define it to 1
03:18:35 <Sgeo> Multiply by x, add one, mod 1 fail on -1
03:18:41 * Sgeo fails
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03:19:37 <Phantom__Hoover> <Arc_Koen> anyone here has a cool simple arithmetical function implementing logical not (0 -> 1 everything else -> 0) with +-*/% ?
03:19:37 <zzo38> I think it is actually related to a Haskell type like (x -> Zero)
03:19:40 <FreeFull> Arc_Koen: If rather than everything else you had a specific value in mind, it'd be easier
03:20:00 <zzo38> If you are treated the type as arithmetic/logic instead of type.
03:20:01 <FreeFull> 0 -> -1 you could use (x+1)*(-1)
03:20:13 <Phantom__Hoover> I'd point out that you're trying to create a discontinuous function by composition of continuous ones, but % isn't continuous.
03:20:31 <FreeFull> 0+1 = 1 1 * -1 = -1
03:20:32 <Arc_Koen> good point
03:20:34 <quintopia> %2 seems an obvious place to start
03:20:40 <FreeFull> -1 + 1 = 0 0 * -1 = 0
03:20:46 <quintopia> maybe as last step
03:20:51 <quintopia> like
03:21:07 <Arc_Koen> oh, you could try all the modulos
03:21:15 <quintopia> is / integer division?
03:21:16 <tswett> Say, something I've wondered for a little while.
03:21:19 <quintopia> because
03:21:21 <quintopia> if it is
03:21:28 <Arc_Koen> or something
03:21:39 <Arc_Koen> yes, it is
03:21:39 <quintopia> (x/(x-1)+1)%2 might work
03:21:43 <tswett> Are there any computable sets of axioms that uni--no, not that.
03:21:50 <quintopia> oh wait
03:21:52 <quintopia> sorry
03:21:59 <FreeFull> Phantom__Hoover: Basically trying to create a function that takes integers and only has a spike at x=0
03:22:00 <Arc_Koen> well i think it is
03:22:00 <quintopia> (x/(x-1/2)+1)%2
03:22:04 <FreeFull> And is flat elsewhere
03:22:05 <quintopia> will work on all integers
03:22:20 <tswett> Are there any operating systems that, instead of using virtual memory and system calls and all that, work by recompiling all executed code so that it doesn't even try to do prohibited stuff?
03:22:31 <Phantom__Hoover> FreeFull, yes; that's discontinuous.
03:22:37 <FreeFull> quintopia: Integers have half values now?
03:22:41 <Arc_Koen> FreeFull: yeah I just want 0 -> something nonzero anything nonzero -> 0
03:22:55 <quintopia> FreeFull: yeah i should said 0.5
03:22:58 <tswett> I guess the Java platform, and pretty much every application virtual machine, works that way.
03:23:20 <Phantom__Hoover> You said it had to take integers, not that all intermediate values had to be integers
03:23:56 <FreeFull> ((x/2)-(x*2)+1)%2 ??
03:24:07 <quintopia> FreeFull: the dirac delta function only has a spike at a particular value, though it's value at that point is infinite
03:24:17 <Phantom__Hoover> ohhhh wait
03:24:18 <quintopia> do you mind if the nonzero value is "infinity"?
03:24:25 <Phantom__Hoover> you're restricting this only to the integers
03:24:30 <FreeFull> Integers don't have infinity
03:24:31 <Phantom__Hoover> that opens it up a lot
03:24:51 <FreeFull> Wait
03:24:54 <FreeFull> Mine wouldn't work
03:24:57 <FreeFull> Derp
03:25:12 <quintopia> (x/(x-0.5)+1)%2 works for all integer x
03:25:21 <quintopia> erm
03:25:25 <FreeFull> quintopia: That only works if you've got floating point somewhere
03:25:30 <quintopia> oh
03:25:32 <quintopia> well
03:25:40 <quintopia> it doesnt work at 1 anyway
03:25:59 <quintopia> the 0.5 would need to be like...0.9
03:26:05 <quintopia> or
03:26:07 <quintopia> 0.1
03:26:13 <quintopia> 0.1 would be best
03:26:15 <quintopia> so yeah
03:26:19 <Phantom__Hoover> no it wouldn't
03:26:19 <quintopia> different ideas...
03:26:32 <Phantom__Hoover> 0.125 would be much better
03:26:57 <quintopia> lol
03:27:55 <FreeFull> quintopia: You're also assuming that floats get rounded rather than, say, floored
03:28:12 <quintopia> i was assuming floor
03:28:23 <quintopia> but yeah
03:28:27 <quintopia> a minute
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03:29:19 <Arc_Koen> ((x-1)%256)/255
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03:29:22 <FreeFull> 1/(2*x+1) maybe?
03:29:28 <FreeFull> Let me plot that
03:29:35 <FreeFull> Actually no
03:29:37 <FreeFull> It wouldn't work
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03:29:41 <Arc_Koen> this maps 0 to 255/255
03:29:48 <Arc_Koen> and everything alse to small/255 which is 0
03:30:11 <Phantom__Hoover> the words 'lagrange' and 'interpolation' are creeping steadily into my mind
03:30:46 <FreeFull> I just have the graph of 1/x stuck in my head
03:31:09 <FreeFull> But division by zero is not kosher
03:31:35 <FreeFull> Arc_Koen: Is x signed or unsigned?
03:32:05 <Arc_Koen> well in my very specific case it was a signed integer that I restrained to 0-255
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03:33:19 <quintopia> can we restrict this to the positive integers?
03:33:37 <quintopia> well
03:33:40 <quintopia> of course we can
03:33:43 <quintopia> nvm
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03:35:35 <quintopia> assuming / does truncation
03:35:44 <quintopia> 1/(x*x+1)
03:35:46 <quintopia> should work
03:36:11 <quintopia> i dunno why i didnt think of it before
03:36:24 <zzo38> I was thinking the same thing, at the same time
03:36:32 <quintopia> its graph is the hat shape that hits 1 at zero and is between 0 and 1 everywhere else
03:36:35 * FreeFull fires up gnuplut
03:36:40 <quintopia> so do greatest integer to it and bam
03:37:17 <quintopia> in fact you can make a continous version that is arbitrarily close to what you want without truncation
03:37:26 <quintopia> name 1/(x^n+1)
03:37:39 <FreeFull> Yeah
03:37:41 <FreeFull> This should work
03:37:45 <quintopia> as n->infty, that goes to "zero everywhere and 1 at zero"
03:37:50 <FreeFull> For negative numbers
03:37:52 <FreeFull> And positive
03:38:05 <FreeFull> Just 1/(x*x+1) if you restrict to integers
03:38:42 <quintopia> you mean "just 1/(x*x+1) if you use integer division"
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04:07:16 <FreeFull> Well, sure
04:08:46 <Arc_Koen> why not just 1/(x+1)?
04:09:57 <Arc_Koen> oh, maybe to include negative integers as well
04:10:10 <Arc_Koen> well thank you for your help and good night
04:14:20 <shachaf> 19:22:37 <kmc> i'll take a moment to plug my tiny thread library: http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/spawn/0.2/doc/html/Control-Concurrent-Spawn.html
04:14:24 <shachaf> Nostalgia. :-(
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04:36:54 <zzo38> For voting for Famicompo, I choose to: listen to files at random and vote them without seeing tht title, and without caring if it is original/cover, voting each song of a multisong file individually (the vote to send will be whichever is smallest, unless they are the same song with variation, in which case the largest number use instead).
04:37:26 <zzo38> Some comments may be written at this time, too. And then, read the titles, relisten if necessary, to write additional comments.
04:37:56 <zzo38> All of this is written in a local file. After is all written, to copy it to the form to send to Famicompo.
04:38:25 <zzo38> Do you think this way is reasonable?
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04:44:32 <kmc> plug plug plug
04:44:47 <kmc> shachaf: I saw rwbarton at a party
04:44:57 <kmc> i told him that his excellent python quiz has fallen off the internet
04:45:05 <kmc> then we subjected someone else at the party to the python quit
04:45:08 <kmc> quiz-
04:46:15 <copumpkin> kmc: whoa, he's a real person?
04:47:13 <shachaf> Which Python quiz?
04:47:28 <shachaf> copumpkin: Sure! He was at HacBoston.
04:47:39 <copumpkin> oh?
04:47:47 <copumpkin> I must just suck
04:47:58 <shachaf> http://web.archive.org/web/20101009122154/http://web.mit.edu/rwbarton/www/python.html ?
04:49:01 <shachaf> kmc: For a few minutes ghc-core used Spawn.
04:49:41 <elliott> i bet i could do that quiz
04:50:26 <copumpkin> try it
04:50:33 <copumpkin> I like #3
04:51:35 <Jafet> Oh, the quiz wasn't lost forever.
04:54:56 <kmc> shachaf: heh
04:55:13 <kmc> i like #4
04:56:14 <coppro> ahahahaha
05:00:58 <copumpkin> I like #3 just because most people see it and think the answer is one of two things, and it turns out to be neither
05:03:51 <coppro> heh
05:04:01 <coppro> I don't even understand what the third line means
05:04:55 <Sgeo> It's a generator comprehension
05:05:04 <Sgeo> Think along the lines of a Haskell list comprehension
05:05:24 <coppro> ahahahahahahahahahahah
05:05:45 <coppro> that's hilarious
05:05:49 <coppro> why does it do that?
05:05:49 <Sgeo> I'm curious, what's so hilarious
05:06:19 <Jafet> The snake oil programming language.
05:06:23 <Sgeo> Well, knowing that there's a trick, I had some idea of what it was, but yeah, that's surprising
05:06:59 <Bike> 31... huh?
05:07:52 <Sgeo> Well, generator expressions make generators which are lazy, so that's part of it
05:08:19 <Bike> i would understand 11, I would understand 33, I do not understand 31.
05:08:32 <Sgeo> Oh
05:08:33 <Bike> i.e. I am the rube copumpkin prophesied
05:08:59 <Sgeo> I think people would have guessed either 11 or 21
05:09:04 <copumpkin> it only captures one of the two variables
05:09:12 <copumpkin> I've had people argue that it's expected behavior, too
05:09:14 <copumpkin> but it's bullshit
05:09:16 <Bike> What, why.
05:09:19 <elliott> guys!!
05:09:20 <elliott> no spoilers
05:09:23 <elliott> i wanted to do that quiz
05:09:28 <elliott> now i never can
05:09:28 <elliott> ever
05:09:28 <copumpkin> you'd fail
05:09:29 <Bike> The answer is bullshit. Spoil'd
05:09:31 <copumpkin> it makes no sense at all
05:09:32 <elliott> copumpkin: no im good
05:09:34 <elliott> im super good
05:09:37 <Bike> But seriously, what the fuck?
05:09:57 * Sgeo suddenly is uncomfortable with Python
05:10:07 <Bike> How do you know which variable is captured?
05:11:28 <Sgeo> #1 makes no sense
05:11:29 <Bike> It's just the first, huh. Crappy implementation.
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05:12:19 <Bike> #1 is at least consistent. No fresh binding for the loop.
05:12:47 <Sgeo> Ah
05:13:05 <Bike> all the x's in the lambdas are the same x, which ends at 99.
05:13:16 <Sgeo> Bike, you mean i?
05:13:20 <Bike> er, yes.
05:13:34 <Sgeo> I corrected Bike! I can die happy now!
05:13:39 <Bike> Though I have no idea how you'd rebind a variable in Python.
05:14:06 <Bike> putting in an i=i doesn't work...
05:14:51 <kmc> Sgeo: #1 is the same thing that would happen in Scheme
05:14:58 <kmc> if you faithfully translated the mutating 'for' loop
05:15:06 <kmc> closures close over mutable variables, not over values
05:15:08 <kmc> in both Scheme and Python
05:15:52 <shachaf> In Python you can't mutate those variables, though.
05:15:52 <Sgeo> Going to go see what Clojure does
05:15:56 <kmc> as for "rebind a variable", there isn't a "let" construct
05:16:12 <Bike> I know that much.
05:16:23 <kmc> you introduce a new scope with a new function
05:16:38 <Bike> oh, so just hack it with a lambda
05:16:43 <kmc> so i think (lambda i: lambda x: x+i)(i) would do the expected thing
05:16:47 <kmc> but is not very pythonic
05:17:00 <Sgeo> The C++ thingy on IdeOne does Paredit but Clojure doesn't
05:17:19 <Bike> yep, that works.
05:20:34 <Sgeo> http://ideone.com/ErNJ7R
05:21:47 <shachaf> 0 days since Sgeo last mentioned Clojure in #esoteric
05:21:53 <Bike> so, what would you do to make it idiomatic, in the totally reasonable use-case of "I need an array of a hundred indexed adders"
05:22:06 <shachaf> An array of a hundred indexed adders isn't Pythonic, Bike.
05:22:22 <shachaf> You'd probably use objects or something.
05:22:41 <Sgeo> Hmm, I'm not entirely sure what the most idiomatic thing to do would be
05:22:42 <Bike> you don't say
05:22:53 <Sgeo> Could use loop/recur, I guess
05:22:59 <Sgeo> To make a vector
05:23:11 <kmc> Bike: probably def adder(i): return lambda x: x + i
05:23:21 <kmc> i've done this before anyway
05:23:29 <Bike> how boringly reasonable
05:23:48 <Sgeo> In Clojure, arrays aren't idiomatic, vectors are preferred
05:24:13 <Bike> what's the difference
05:24:19 <Sgeo> Vectors are immutable
05:24:35 <Sgeo> And have different performance characteristics, I think
05:24:55 <Bike> sometimes I have a transient wish that just for a brief moment words would mean things...
05:25:21 <Sgeo> The word "functor" is always fun.
05:25:42 <Sgeo> Each language that has "functors" has an entirely different and unrelated idea of what a functor is
05:26:18 <Bike> also, how do you not know how to initialize a vector? that must be pretty basic
05:28:17 <Sgeo> http://ideone.com/TwDf2E
05:28:21 <Sgeo> This should be idiomatic
05:28:23 <Sgeo> Could also map
05:28:38 <Sgeo> Hmm, I have no real use for that vec
05:29:16 <Bike> the problem isn't really something you'd want to actually do, it's just to demonstrate how a part of python works
05:29:17 <Sgeo> Bike, because I derped
05:43:29 <pikhq_> Apparently my recent Facebook post was "aggressive".
05:44:09 <pikhq_> Because simply saying "I am atheist" is... In some way an affront to people?
05:44:42 <Sgeo> Someone said that in private?
05:44:54 <pikhq_> Yes.
05:45:13 <pikhq_> Mom trying to advise me of a potential shit storm.
05:45:48 <Bike> well, she's right about that much
05:46:26 <pikhq_> Also I'm bi. Wheeee
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06:05:56 <copumpkin> pikhq_: how could you!
06:25:11 <pikhq_> With ease!
06:26:39 <shachaf> <pikhq_> iamatheist
06:26:47 <pikhq_> Smartass.
06:53:01 <Gracenotes> where abouts are you? Not a major city, I take it
06:53:32 <zzo38> Who do you ask?
06:54:52 <pikhq_> Gracenotes: Colorado Springs, CO
06:55:18 <shachaf> hi Gracenotes
06:55:30 <shachaf> What're you doing here?
06:56:25 <Gracenotes> Being a language enthusiast
06:58:56 <Gracenotes> Last I was here was a few years ago...
06:59:16 <pikhq_> Sounds right.
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07:12:45 <Gregor> pikhq_: I suspect that the “aggressive” part was “pitchforks on the right, high fives on the left”, particularly because I imagine those directions were not chosen arbitrarily.
07:13:12 <pikhq_> Actually, I did not see the political implications of that until literally just now.
07:13:18 <Gregor> Hahaha
07:13:28 <Gregor> Well played, sir.
07:15:43 <coppro> man, my department sort of idolizes bill tutte
07:42:38 <Sgeo> I should probably eat
07:42:50 <Sgeo> I already ate today, 3 slices of pizza and ice cream, but should really eat dinner.
07:44:47 <shachaf> Ice cream by the slice.
07:45:00 <shachaf> kmc: I heard 99¢ pizza is back to 99¢. :-(
07:48:48 <Sgeo> I'm actually bored on the Internet right now.
07:48:51 <Sgeo> It's a weird feeling.
07:49:10 <elliott> hi
07:49:41 <KALLISTI> hi
07:50:24 <Sgeo> HELLO KALLISTI
07:50:40 <KALLISTI> how are you
07:51:41 <KALLISTI> more like the ancient greek
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07:58:32 <elliott> `welcome ztirf
07:58:44 <HackEgo> ztirf: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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08:08:03 <KALLISTI> I have an idea for another esoteric language
08:08:19 <zzo38> KALLISTI: What idea? Write in list of ideas
08:08:41 <shachaf> The list of ideas is the topic, right?
08:09:16 <zzo38> List of ideas is one of the articles in esolang wiki. However, I mean mention your idea on the IRC too if you like to do so.
08:16:16 <KALLISTI> shachaf: kind of a mixture between traditional expression based languages, with a tree writing system
08:16:32 <shachaf> Why are you telling me?
08:16:39 <shachaf> I hate all esolangs.
08:16:42 <KALLISTI> zzo38: ^
08:16:46 <KALLISTI> shachaf: good point
08:18:17 <coppro> I hate esolangs too
08:21:00 <zzo38> Why?
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08:54:38 <Sgeo> This seems to be an odd channel to be in for someone who hates esolangs
08:54:46 <Sgeo> Although, since it's always off topic, maybe not.
08:55:22 <Sgeo> *almost always. The same way that a random number between 0 and 1 will almost never be exactly 0.5
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09:43:40 <Sgeo> I are hungry.
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10:31:00 <Sgeo> Minor Clojure annoyance time:
10:31:06 <Sgeo> (channel* & {:keys [grounded? permanent? transactional? messages description meta], :as options})
10:31:22 <Sgeo> I really don't need to know the exact details of the destructuring that some function uses on its arguments
10:31:39 <Sgeo> That :as options thing is not something that the user of a function would really care about
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15:39:11 <hagb4rd|outoford> if you ever want to see what happens if the women ever take control come to cologne on a 11.11.
15:41:52 <hagb4rd|outoford> it's like in the story of sir galahad in the movie of monty python
15:42:34 <hagb4rd|outoford> castle anthrax yess
15:54:48 <kmc> what happens on 11.11?
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16:26:26 <Arc_Koen> kmc: I guess you better not wear a tie, or lace-up shoes
16:34:41 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc, Rememberance Day...
16:34:57 <Phantom_Hoover> I have no idea what the hell hagb4rd|outoford is doing, other than that it's in rather poor taste.
16:35:13 <Phantom_Hoover> oh damn, *Remembrance
16:37:49 <kmc> ah yeah i have monday off of work for this same reason
16:38:53 <Phantom_Hoover> I thought it was a Commonwealth thing?
16:45:10 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remembrance_Day#Similar_observances_outside_the_Commonwealth
16:45:59 <kmc> in the USA it's Veteran's Day; we have a separate Memorial Day too
16:46:44 <kmc> i guess the latter is for the dead and the former is for all veterans
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18:48:30 <kmc> i have joined ##posix and ##unix
18:49:06 <kmc> not affiliated with the Open Group, the Organisation internationale de normalisation, or SCO Group
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19:12:33 <R3d-S0u|> hi
19:14:13 <elliott> hi
19:18:56 <ion> How to destroy the celebration with a trumpet http://youtu.be/QxnY2SWZTvk
19:19:45 <fizzie> We have a "Kaatuneiden muistopäivä" ("memorial day for the fallen") for people who died in any wars or such involving Finland, but it's strategically placed on a Sunday (third Sunday of May) so as to not result in any extra time off.
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19:36:54 <Vorpal> fizzie, sneaky
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19:42:53 <fizzie> Oh, and today was also "Father's Day" here; and apparently in Estonia, Sweden, Norway and Iceland too; even though most of the rest of the world has it as the third Sunday of June instead.
19:43:03 <Vorpal> heh
19:44:45 <fizzie> "More phone calls are made in the United States during Mother's Day than during Father's Day, but the percentage of collect calls on Father's Day is much higher, making it the busiest day of the year for collect calls."
19:44:48 <fizzie> Curious.
19:45:22 <olsner> fathers calling their kids collect as a subtle way of reminding them they should've called?
19:45:46 <zzo38> No, I think it means you work too much.
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19:52:06 <Vorpal> huh, Raspberry Pi lacks an RTC? I guess that means it won't keep time when off? Weird design choice
19:52:18 <zzo38> Can you add one?
19:52:36 <fizzie> There are some projects adding one, I believe.
19:52:44 <fizzie> It certainly has enough interfacing options for that.
19:52:59 <fizzie> And I suppose they just didn't want to bother adding a battery on the thing, those are so inelegant.
19:52:59 <Vorpal> don't know, I'm just looking at the specs atm, I'm considering getting a Raspberry Pi
19:53:13 <fizzie> I've got one, and I use it for absolutely nothing.
19:53:23 <fizzie> Also got it like week before they did that 512M upgrade.
19:53:28 <Vorpal> I'm wondering if it can start on power connected, after a power outage or such
19:53:29 <Vorpal> hm
19:53:40 <fizzie> It doesn't have an "off" mode.
19:53:43 <Vorpal> ah
19:53:44 <fizzie> It's on if it gets power.
19:54:04 <Vorpal> so when you shut it down it displays "please turn off the power now" or such?
19:54:12 <Vorpal> how much did it cost btw?
19:54:32 <fizzie> IIRC shutdown -h just shut the HDMI down, so it didn't display anything.
19:54:38 <Vorpal> heh
19:54:49 <Vorpal> fizzie, well how do you unmount stuff before pulling the power?
19:54:58 <Vorpal> will shutdown -h do that at least?
19:55:09 <fizzie> Sure, it'll do that before halting.
19:55:13 <Vorpal> right
19:55:33 <fizzie> It just doesn't "turn off", since it doesn't have a power switch.
19:55:38 <Vorpal> anyway I figured out that I need a matching SD card (that looks complicated to find), a HDMI->DVI converter and a power supply for it to be usable for me
19:55:56 <Vorpal> possibly a case would be a good idea
19:56:13 <fizzie> And it cost that official price, $35, plus some amount of money for the delivery. I forget exactly. It was from Element 14, anyway, and it was a friend ordering a bunch, so I wasn't directly involved in the order.
19:56:25 <Vorpal> I do have a use case for it though, but one that require more than a 4 GB SD card by far. 16 or 32 probably
19:56:40 <FireFly> Should be available in a local store
19:56:44 <fizzie> I just used a scrappy no-name 2G SD card that I had from Italy somewhere.
19:56:49 <atriq> I got bored and my computer was refusing to connect to the internet, so I started writing a brainfuck interpreter
19:57:14 <fizzie> (Bought it when running out of storage taking photos thereabouts.)
19:57:17 <Vorpal> FireFly, those parts? Probably, maybe not the SD card though, it seems it is is very picky with series
19:57:52 <FireFly> I just plugged in a card I had at home, and it worked like a charm
19:58:04 <fizzie> So did I.
19:58:07 <Vorpal> anyway how does linux keep the system time with no RTC?
19:58:16 <Vorpal> I'm curious now
19:58:19 <FireFly> In fact I think I run it on a microSD card through a converter
19:58:21 <fizzie> Uh.. it's not like x86 Linux would use the RTC for timekeeping either.
19:58:35 <Vorpal> fizzie, sure but what does it use instead?
19:59:06 <olsner> I think it can pretty much use anything that ticks
19:59:07 <fizzie> I just know the x86 timer sources, and I've forgotten even those; there was at least TSC and HPET timers.
19:59:09 <Vorpal> CPU frequency is not all that stable even when you don't do dynamic frequency stuff
19:59:21 <fizzie> TSC on modern x86 CPUs is invariant.
19:59:25 <Vorpal> ah nice
19:59:28 <fizzie> (Of frequency.)
19:59:38 <Vorpal> HPET is pretty nice as well
20:01:58 <FireFly> Vorpal: http://www.webhallen.com/se-sv/hardvara/159735-sandisk_secure_digital_ultra_16gb seems to work well: http://www.google.com/search?q=raspberry%20pi%20sdsdu-016g-u46
20:02:12 <Vorpal> hm
20:02:18 <zzo38> Is there a version with CompactFlash?
20:02:25 <fizzie> As for power, I got my power out of the N900's USB charger so far.
20:02:39 <Vorpal> fizzie, yeah I kind of use my USB charger for my phone
20:02:46 <Vorpal> and my old phones did not do charging by USB
20:02:53 <fizzie> I don't use it all the time, though.
20:03:14 <Vorpal> The plan for my possible Pi would require it being on constantly
20:03:37 <fizzie> For more permanent use I was thinking of getting a suitable powered USB hub; the wiki lists quite a few models that reportedly can do the "provides power for Pi as well as a USB hub for it" thing.
20:03:46 <fizzie> But that's still on the TODO list.
20:04:06 <Vorpal> fizzie, wait, can it use power over the USB-A ports?
20:04:11 <Vorpal> or what do you mean
20:04:24 <fizzie> No, but you can use one of the USB hub's outgoing ports to provide power to the Pi.
20:04:31 <Vorpal> ah
20:04:50 <fizzie> (Okay, technically speaking I believe you can hack it to accept "feedback" power via the USB-A ports too, but that'd be a real kludge.)
20:04:51 <Vorpal> won't it only provide 100 mA unless the device asks for more?
20:05:16 <Vorpal> I thought the power port didn't have any pins except the power ones connected
20:05:49 <fizzie> It doesn't. But if it's a USB-BC dedicated charging port, it should push out something like 1A or more by default.
20:06:02 <Vorpal> also, how fast cards would be useful in the pi, what can the host controller deal with
20:06:09 <Vorpal> would a class 10 card be overkill?
20:06:30 <fizzie> And apparently many hubs are perfectly willing to provide power out to ports that are disconnect w.r.t. D+/D-.
20:06:41 <Vorpal> heh
20:06:42 <fizzie> I was thinking I'll just read the wiki and pick some model that's known to work well.
20:07:08 <Vorpal> anyway what would a HDMI->DVI converter cost, I have no monitors with HDMI
20:07:29 <Vorpal> and I won't use the display past initial setup and possible debugging
20:07:39 <fizzie> HDMI-DVI-cables seem to cost about the same as HDMI-HDMI and DVI-DVI cables.
20:07:47 <Vorpal> hm
20:07:57 <fizzie> Don't know about adapters, but they should be really cheap according to logic.
20:08:59 <fizzie> Sadly, logic is not always a reliable source when it comes to hardware prices.
20:09:09 <Vorpal> indeed
20:09:22 <Vorpal> I'm wondering it it requires an active cable
20:09:27 <fizzie> It doesn't.
20:09:34 <Vorpal> might be DP->HDMI or DP->DVI that does then
20:09:47 <fizzie> HDMI is just DVI minus the analog and dual-link parts, plus something about digital audio.
20:10:13 <fizzie> DP-to-DVI/HDMI may need an active cable, depending on the source.
20:10:56 <fizzie> I believe many graphics cards have DP connectors that you can connect to DVI/HDMI via passive adapters, since they can provide the TMDS signal over the DP pins.
20:11:44 <fizzie> But there's things like EyeFinity cards with 3*DP where you can connect up to two DVI devices with passive adapters, but the third needs an active one, because the card runs out of suitable clock generators for TMDS output.
20:12:12 <fizzie> (The active DP-to-DVI devices cost an absurd amount of money when I was looking at them.)
20:12:37 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm I have an AMD card that can drive up to 4 monitors iirc, but it has like 2 DVI (one DVI-I one DVI-D), one DP and one HDMI
20:12:40 <Vorpal> or something weird like that
20:13:22 <fizzie> It sounds somewhat probable that the DP port couldn't drive a passive-adaptor DVI, then, given how many DVI-ish outputs it already has.
20:13:38 <Vorpal> well, I only use a single DVI output currently
20:14:19 <fizzie> "Dual-mode DisplayPort (also known as DisplayPort++[26]) can directly emit single-link HDMI and DVI signals using a simple passive adapter that adjusts for the lower voltages required by DisplayPort."
20:14:33 <atriq> Gimp in Ubuntu Unity is annoying
20:14:41 <fizzie> Apparently they've invented a special logo for that, a DP with a ++ in it.
20:16:07 <Vorpal> atriq, oh?
20:16:27 <Vorpal> fizzie, heh, well then I know my laptop would need an active adapter too
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20:18:52 <Vorpal> that they even released a version without ethernet is confusing to me
20:19:23 <fizzie> It's officially an educational tool, you don't necessarily need networking for that.
20:19:31 <Vorpal> really, is it?
20:19:48 <Vorpal> I thought it was just a super-awesome product
20:20:06 <coppro> is this olpc or something like that
20:20:11 <atriq> Vorpal, you can't go straight from the toolbox to a file menu thingy
20:20:12 <Vorpal> coppro, RPi
20:20:19 <coppro> ah
20:20:23 <Vorpal> atriq, hm?
20:20:40 <Vorpal> oh gimp
20:20:41 <Vorpal> right
20:20:57 <Vorpal> atriq, yeah that is stupid
20:21:11 <elliott> 蓬Π
20:21:28 <atriq> Because it only shows the thingies for the window you're on, and the toolbox is a separate window
20:22:06 <Vorpal> fizzie, so total cost is something like $70 or so when shipping, SD card, power supply, monitor cable, case and so on are included
20:22:23 <Vorpal> not quite as cheap suddenly
20:22:52 <Vorpal> atriq, there are two issues here: 1) unity is terrible 2) gimp has a terrible GUI on *anything*
20:23:25 <fizzie> Vorpal: "-- developed in the UK by the Raspberry Pi Foundation with the intention of stimulating the teaching of basic computer science in schools."
20:23:35 <FreeFull> Gimp's bad GUI is a tradition
20:23:37 <fizzie> All their public statements have emphasized the education thing.
20:23:41 <FreeFull> If you want a better GUI, use something else
20:25:01 <fizzie> Vorpal: They e.g. didn't include the MPEG2 hw-decode license with the board officially because they didn't have any idea people would actually buy Pi's for media-center use.
20:25:45 <Vorpal> fizzie, hah
20:26:01 <Vorpal> fizzie, how could they have missed that angle?
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20:26:53 <fizzie> Vorpal: I suppose they were just so single-mindedly doing the "cheap computer for schools" angle.
20:27:00 <Vorpal> heh
20:27:26 <fizzie> One of the stated reasons for the 512M bump was the unexpected uses people kept putting the thing to.
20:27:52 <Vorpal> well, I would manage on 256M but 512M is certainly a lot nicer
20:28:57 <Vorpal> hrrm, given the lack of RTC, won't it try to fsck on every boot, at least if you use ext3/4
20:29:07 <Vorpal> fizzie, oh and what filesystem do you use on the card?
20:29:51 <fizzie> It's fixed-fraction shared with the GPU, so it's generally something closer to 192M or 224M of RAM for the system.
20:30:20 <Vorpal> ouch
20:30:28 <fizzie> And I just put whatever raspbian-installer put there, which was probably ext3; really, since I don't have any use case for it yet, I just put something in there to see that it boots.
20:30:40 <Vorpal> fizzie, fixed fraction? can you configure it with a boot flag?
20:30:57 <Vorpal> fizzie, irc bouncer obviously
20:31:11 <fizzie> Yes, it's configurable but not changeable at "runtime".
20:31:16 <Vorpal> ah
20:31:48 <Vorpal> so basically after the initial setup I would configure it to give me a minimum sized display in case I need to debug something, since it will be headless for my use case
20:31:50 <fizzie> And the lowest supported for the GPU even for a headless system is 16M, I believe.
20:32:19 <Vorpal> fizzie, anyway use case ideas: irc bouncer, simple server to ssh into and initiate WOL from to wake up your beefy computer at home
20:32:57 <fizzie> I have my 4*gigE mini-ITX Atom box for IRC/ssh-into/DNS/router/etc. box, though.
20:33:28 <Vorpal> that is probably using several times as much power as the RPi though
20:33:33 <fizzie> Admittedly RPi would use less juice, but getting four network holes into it sounds nontrivial.
20:33:42 <fizzie> Yes, well, kWh's aren't *that* expensive.
20:33:46 <fizzie> (Yet.)
20:33:55 <Vorpal> fizzie, well I have a switch anyway so...
20:34:17 <fizzie> A switch won't firewall anything.
20:34:45 <Vorpal> well duh, I have an ADSL modem with router and such built in as well
20:35:15 <Vorpal> anyway what about VLAN? That would work no?
20:35:50 <Vorpal> you would configure the switch to send everything external to the RPi, let it do the firewall, and resend on a different VLAN tag
20:36:10 <Vorpal> (however at this point your switch is so expensive it isn't worth it any more)
20:36:31 <fizzie> I don't have switches that manageable, and anyway I doubt you could push terribly much traffic over the RPi's USB-100baseT-ethernet hole.
20:36:36 <Vorpal> fizzie, funny thing, my desktop intel express pro gbit whatever networking thingy actually support VLAN
20:36:54 <Vorpal> fizzie, wait, USB? How does USB come into it?
20:37:05 <fizzie> RPi's Ethernet is connected over USB.
20:37:11 <Vorpal> ouch
20:37:15 <Vorpal> what a weird design
20:37:26 <fizzie> It's part of the combined USB hub / Ethernet chip from SMC.
20:37:52 <Vorpal> heh
20:38:04 <Vorpal> yeah I thought it was just two features of the same chip
20:38:24 <Vorpal> rather than the ethernet being visible over the USB controller
20:38:35 <fizzie> The A model has a single USB port (on the ARM SoC); the B model has the SMC chip permanently wired into that, and the SMC provides a USB hub with three logical ports, one of which is directly connected to the USB-Ethernet thing.
20:39:27 <Vorpal> heh
20:39:38 <Vorpal> so is that USB 2.0?
20:39:45 <fizzie> I think so, yes.
20:39:59 <Vorpal> well, can't expect USB 3 from that thing
20:40:33 <fizzie> The ARMv6 thing is also a bit of a shame; no NEON or anything.
20:40:52 <Vorpal> true, maybe I should just hold off to a future generation of the RPi
20:41:45 <fizzie> Re VLAN, I am under the impression that most Linux drivers support 802.1q VLANs more or less well; certainly it works well enough for me. (I've got a VLAN for making sure traffic from the Atom box to the webserver laptop doesn't accidentally leak over the VDSL2 pipe, since I don't trust that ZTE piece of crap to do anything correctly.)
20:42:23 <Vorpal> heh
20:42:48 <Vorpal> fizzie, how do you set up VLAN under Linux btw?
20:43:22 <Vorpal> iptables?
20:43:44 <fizzie> iproute2's "ip" tool can do it; there was also something earlier, 'vconfig' or something like that.
20:43:59 <Vorpal> is it well documented for ip?
20:44:05 <fizzie> And distro-specific things; I think e.g. Debian's "/etc/network/interfaces" thing has syntax for it.
20:45:05 <fizzie> It's not terribly complicated, at least. ip link add link realif0 name realif0.42 type vlan id 42 and then you can configure the realif0.42 interface and everything sent there will be 802.1q-tagged with the tag 42 and sent over realif0.
20:45:21 <fizzie> (And everything thus tagged coming in from realif0 will instead appear in that interface.)
20:45:34 <Vorpal> ah
20:45:49 <Vorpal> how did that help with your atom box though?
20:46:13 <fizzie> Well. The network setup here is such that there's a VDSL2 box in bridging mode, connected to a switch with the server-laptop and the Atom box; the Atom box then isolates that DMZ area from the other network holes it has, namely LAN, wifi and the NAS box.
20:46:50 <Vorpal> ah
20:46:59 <fizzie> I was worried that even with local 10/8 range IPs, internal traffic between the server-laptop and whatever's behind the Atom box would leak over the bridging VDSL2 box, since it's such a stupid device.
20:47:22 <Vorpal> but does the switch handle the VLAN tags then?
20:47:27 <Vorpal> or how does VLAN help
20:47:51 <fizzie> I made all that go over a VLAN, and configured the VDSL2 box's really poor filtering things never pass any 802.1Q traffic over the DSL link.
20:48:06 <fizzie> Okay, I still need to trust it to do that right, but at least I've made an attempt.
20:48:07 <Vorpal> heh
20:48:24 <Vorpal> why not put everything behind the atom box instead?
20:48:35 <Vorpal> and have it DMZ to the server laptop
20:49:03 <Vorpal> and put the NAS and the LAN on a common switch on the inside
20:49:23 <fizzie> I guess that'd be a possible setup; but it sounds like it'd need some slightly trickier configuration, since the server laptop needs to acquire a public IP over DHCP from the ISP.
20:49:42 <Vorpal> oh you have multiple IPs?
20:49:43 <Vorpal> nice
20:49:47 <fizzie> Okay, "needs" is in quotes.
20:49:56 <fizzie> They officially allow up to 5 public DHCP ips.
20:50:01 <Vorpal> heh
20:50:22 <Vorpal> fizzie, since it is a laptop couldn't you just access it over wifi instead?
20:50:52 <fizzie> I... suppose. Honestly, enabling wifi on it hasn't really even occurred to me. I'm not sure it has working wifi.
20:51:00 <Vorpal> ah
20:51:11 <fizzie> It's kind of old, but not *that* old, so... well, it could go either way.
20:51:18 <Vorpal> you could use BT maybe XD
20:51:25 <fizzie> (It's a Pentium-M 1.5 GHz thing.)
20:51:33 <Vorpal> sure, should have wifi
20:51:37 <Vorpal> or could at least
20:53:21 <Vorpal> fizzie, how is the GPIO exposed to user space on the RPi?
20:53:31 <Vorpal> something in /dev?
20:55:24 <fizzie> I forget exactly; it's some kind of a standard Linux approach to such things.
20:57:00 <Vorpal> hm what real time versions of linux are there...
20:58:31 <fizzie> https://github.com/torvalds/linux/blob/master/Documentation/pinctrl.txt -- it drops into this infrastructure, I believe.
20:58:47 <fizzie> (And then you can use standard things to run I2C or whatever over the pins.)
20:59:43 <Vorpal> hm
20:59:54 <fizzie> Doesn't seem to talk much about the userspace side of accessing these.
21:00:16 <Vorpal> fizzie, well sure, it isn't exactly difficult to do I2C or whatever over plain GPIO by yourself. I have done that on AVR
21:00:38 <fizzie> Probably not, but it's nice not to reinvent wheels so much, sometimes.
21:01:03 <fizzie> Also, server-laptop's lspci doesn't list anything too wifi-ish, though I did learn something I didn't know before, namely that there's a firewire port on it somewhere.
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21:02:34 <fizzie> So if I had a suitable cable, I could run that firewire networking... except that the Atom board probably doesn't do firewire.
21:02:54 <fizzie> I don't think I've ever managed to actually use a firewire-connected anything at home.
21:04:01 <Vorpal> I used firewire networking at one point to a desktop with only 100 mbit ethernet
21:04:07 <Vorpal> sped up file transfer a lot
21:04:32 <Vorpal> (I was regularly transferring several GB off it at that point
21:04:33 <Vorpal> )(
21:04:39 <Vorpal> s/($//
21:04:52 <fizzie> We had two firewire-capable laptops with us in Belgium, and only one Ethernet cable for the hotel's Interweb connection.
21:05:08 <fizzie> The wifi was a bit iffy in the room, so had to share the network connection over ad-hoc wifi.
21:05:27 <fizzie> Since we didn't have a firewire cable for using that instead.
21:06:05 <Vorpal> heh
21:06:09 <fizzie> Not that the hotel's intertubes connection was fast enough for it to matter all that much.
21:06:29 <Vorpal> firewire is getting kind of rare these days :/
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21:07:05 <fizzie> How's it going with Thunderbolt? Still anywhere except some iComputers?
21:09:20 <fizzie> This laptop's FireWire port is some kind of a "mini" connector.
21:09:42 <Vorpal> same here
21:09:58 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:FireWire_cables.jpg the leftmost one.
21:10:08 <Vorpal> same on this laptop
21:10:12 <fizzie> I have a vague feeling the iBook had a full-size port.
21:10:21 <Vorpal> lucky for me I have a mini-to-fullsize cable
21:13:47 <fizzie> It's kind of funny that the S/PDIF optical-out on this thing seems to be always-on, so if you put anything to the right of the laptop, it's illuminated with a red glow from one of the 3.5mm audio jacks; the one that has the dual-purpose optical-S/PDIF out in it.
21:14:03 <fizzie> At least it's easy to remember which jack to plug it in by just putting a hand next to them all.
21:14:06 <Vorpal> heh
21:14:18 <Vorpal> that is kind of silly
21:14:37 <fizzie> Also it goes dark if I mute the sound, which is funny.
21:16:06 <zzo38> At least I have seen devices with optical audio are red even when off, so I don't know why it would be dark if muted.
21:16:32 <fizzie> It'd probably be red even if it were sending silence; I guess the driver turns the whole transmitter off somehow.
21:18:33 <Vorpal> fizzie, this is the server laptop?
21:18:39 <Vorpal> I guess muting is a reasonable idea then
21:19:00 <fizzie> No, it was the... uh, laptop-laptop.
21:19:04 <Vorpal> right
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21:20:14 <fizzie> Though for all I know the server-laptop could do the same thing; it does have on-board audio, after all.
21:20:47 <fizzie> Come to think of it, it probably has built-in speakers too; I mean, it *is* a laptop.
21:21:38 <fizzie> Well, you never know when the capability to remotely make a noise in that room could come in handy.
21:22:41 <fizzie> The SparcStation 5 had a rather impressive built-in speaker; I wasn't aware of that incidentally, and got quite a scare when I thought I'd just out of curiosity try to play an audio file.
21:23:04 <Vorpal> heh
21:23:11 <Vorpal> fizzie, you have a sparcstation?
21:23:34 <fizzie> It's been in the basement for quite a while, but yes.
21:24:07 <fizzie> It was my main router/IRC box for several years.
21:24:59 <Vorpal> nice
21:25:09 <Vorpal> why did you stop using it for that?
21:25:12 <Vorpal> the power usage?
21:25:42 <fizzie> That, and it has (at least) two terribly loud fans, and I slept like two metres from it while in the one-room student apartment.
21:27:37 <Vorpal> impressive you managed that
21:28:02 <fizzie> These days I don't even have a monitor I could display its console on, since I got rid of the big hulking CRT.
21:28:19 <Vorpal> wow the RPi boot via the GPU. Weird
21:28:57 <fizzie> I've got a "Sun 13w3 to 4xBNC" cable for it, but it needs a CRT screen that has the BNC connectors and can do combined H/V sync.
21:29:11 <Vorpal> what do you mean "combined H/V sync"?
21:29:18 <Vorpal> same sync for horizontal and vertical?
21:29:32 <fizzie> Single wire for it; I don't know how it works.
21:29:32 <Vorpal> and it counts the number of syncs to know where it is?
21:29:45 <fizzie> It could be a different kind of pulse.
21:29:48 <atriq> The haskell tag on Tumblr has too much rugby
21:31:17 <fizzie> I really don't know; anyway, the CRT I had handled it fine. According to specs, it supported separate H/V sync (5xBNC, like VGA has), combined H/V sync (4xBNC), and even sync-on-green (3xBNC) reportedly used by some workstations.
21:33:13 <Vorpal> heh
21:33:19 <Vorpal> fizzie, you don't have that monitor any more?
21:33:27 <Vorpal> how will you ever use your sparcstation then?
21:33:55 <fizzie> It can do serial console just fine.
21:34:08 <Vorpal> ah
21:34:12 <fizzie> But I suppose I shall never see the fancy font any more.
21:34:21 <Vorpal> it had a fancy font?
21:34:35 <fizzie> Fancy compared to 8x16 VGA, that is.
21:34:39 <Vorpal> ah
21:34:55 <fizzie> Something like 12x22 and a correspondingly higher resolution.
21:35:15 <fizzie> The bitmaps are of course available from the Internet.
21:35:47 <elliott> "As an aside, I also think the lower-right panel is misleading. A betting decision depends not just on probabilities but also on utilities. If the sun as gone nova, money is worthless. Hence anyone, Bayesian or not, should be willing to bet $50 that the sun has not exploded."
21:35:57 <fizzie> And I still have the Type 5 keyboard, but that's not very useful without a monitor for the actual console.
21:36:53 <atriq> elliott, bet you all the american currency I have that the sun hasn't exploded
21:37:24 <elliott> atriq: is that 0
21:37:58 <FireFly> I bet you a nonzero amount of american currency that the sun hasn't exploded
21:38:22 <Vorpal> hm there is info on overclocking the RPi, but nothing on underclocking it
21:38:34 <Vorpal> IMO it doesn't need to run at 700 MHz when the load is low
21:41:13 <atriq> elliott, it's 0.01
21:41:41 <fizzie> Vorpal: http://wiki.stocksy.co.uk/wiki/Raspberry_Pi_Internet_in_a_box#Frequency_Scaling says that you can have it do the usual ondemand scaling at least for the [100 MHz, 700 MHz] range.
21:42:27 <Vorpal> hm
21:42:32 <fizzie> (Apparently the "turbo mode" can also go downwards and not only upwards.)
21:43:37 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm what are the steps here I wonder
21:43:46 <Vorpal> 100 MHz at a time?
21:44:44 <fizzie> Also, now that you spoke of the monitor issue, it's borderline possible there's also a native 13W3-connector monitor that'd work with the SparcStation in the same basement storage locker. I think the SGI Indy came with one, and I don't recall getting rid of it.
21:45:12 <Vorpal> heh
21:45:17 <Vorpal> you have an SGI Indy too?
21:45:18 <Vorpal> fancy
21:45:32 <Vorpal> fizzie, why did you buy those expensive workstations?
21:46:00 <olsner> he probably got them used for almost-free
21:46:32 <Vorpal> ah, used, right
21:47:33 <fizzie> Right.
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21:48:41 <fizzie> The SparcStation came from an auction by a quirky company (Damicon Kraa) specializing in Sun stuff (in those days), and I think it cost somewhere around 100 eur.
21:49:12 <fizzie> And the Indy was completely free, surplus from the university when they got rid of them; it used to be in a classroom.
21:50:27 <fizzie> Also some guy in the Internet mailed me a SS5 motherboard with a faster CPU and an SBUS fast-ethernet-and-SCSI card for some ridiculously cheap price.
21:50:53 <fizzie> It might've even been some guy from this weird IRC channel called "#esoteric".
21:51:17 <atriq> Those guys are weird
21:51:34 <FireFly> "weird" is a rather fitting word
21:51:57 <atriq> Oh no!
21:52:09 <atriq> I'm only the 25th top poster on the IWC forums!
21:52:13 <atriq> I used to be 24th!
21:52:28 <fizzie> Very soon you won't be in the top 25 at all.
21:53:20 <atriq> It's not too late!
21:53:24 <atriq> I can make more posts!
21:53:25 <atriq> Ahahaha!
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22:04:33 <atriq> `welcome ztirf
22:04:43 <HackEgo> ztirf: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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22:50:06 <zzo38> Do you know how fast the clock speed of OpenCores Amber core is? I will need to know this.
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22:51:02 <zzo38> Actually, more precisely, I would need to know how such things are figured out.
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22:51:28 * pikhq_ blinks
22:51:51 <pikhq_> Traditionally, Chinese abacii were hexadecimal.
22:52:15 <kmc> zzo38: doesn't it come down to the physical gate delay of whatever system you synthesize it in?
22:52:19 <zzo38> They are? I didn't know that.
22:52:50 <kmc> generally with FPGAs it's hard to say the max clock speed a priori because it depends on how all the gate layout and scheduling of shared interlinks goes
22:53:00 <pikhq_> Yes, they were designed so each column represented numbers 0 through 15.
22:53:43 <zzo38> kmc: I would think so, but I don't know how you calculate it from that. The documentation for Amber says it is for Xilinx Spartan6, so I may use that at first until it is available to port it to a open-source FPGA, one-time-programmable FPGA, and/or ASIC.
22:54:37 <zzo38> Since it would have to be modified to work with different kind of FPGA anyways than Xilinx Spartan6, as far as I can tell.
22:55:32 <zzo38> pikhq_: I suppose you can still make up the hexadecimal abacus if you want to have one like that, though.
22:59:40 <zzo38> kmc: Do you know of Xilinx Spartan6 supports one-time-programmable? I would prefer to use one-time-programmable if possible, since it would not be useful to reprogram it if the FPGA is not open-source.
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23:01:26 <kmc> i don't know
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