00:07:23 kmc: i have a quote you will like (hate) 00:09:19 kmc: never mind i misinterpreted it 00:09:24 is it a good quote? is it funny? 00:09:34 "Goodnight" 00:09:36 -!- atriq has quit (Quit: Leaving). 00:09:53 olsner: are you funny 00:11:41 elliott: am I good? 00:11:42 Vorpal: hmm, perhaps the Web would be better off if images couldn't set cookies <-- yes 00:12:16 olsner: yes 00:15:19 I always use the script for sprunge instead of entering the full command. 00:16:24 It is also possible to make a bookmarklet for sprunge too in case you need it for some reason. 00:19:02 What other kind of dice rules might you use other than what I have? /([-+])([0-9]*)(d[0-9]+|)(g-?[0-9]+|)([dk][hl][0-9]*|)/ (negation) (number of dice or constant) (number of sides) (glitch; replaces with constant if half or more dice come up 1) (drop/keep high/lowest dice) Should there be other options available? 00:21:31 -!- ztirf has joined. 00:25:29 -!- LucyintheSky has joined. 00:36:33 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 00:38:25 Although I like the sprunge pastebin, it has one problem, which is because of the Google server which sends incorrect responses to headerless requests. 00:39:31 Can you tell Google to fix this? 00:40:13 Only supporting HTTP/1.1 does not sound like such a terrible faux pas these days. 00:40:14 You could also tell the people who made sprunge to move it off of Google; that is another way. 00:40:37 -!- LucyintheSky has left. 00:40:47 my current phone today is way more advanced than the computer I got 12 years ago. I wonder if my phone 12 years into the future will be way more advanced than my current desktop 00:41:08 I don't know either. 00:41:20 it is an interesting question though 00:41:40 Can you bet on it? 00:43:07 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 00:43:26 Vorpal: But is it more advanced at entering text?! 00:43:44 shachaf, well, SwiftKey is kind of nice... 00:43:56 shachaf, but sure the physical size of the screen and keyboard are smaller 00:44:01 I understand there are quite "general" betting sites where you can bet on very many things. Possibly not on Vorpal's phone in particular, but phones in general. 00:44:22 I don't think I would bet money on anything 00:44:24 you can probably bet on anything with a browser 00:44:24 I intend to make the computer, and one of the things I intend to make it is not to be overcomplicated, while still allowing it to run at reasonable performance and other features. 00:44:30 Vorpal: But the resolution is higher! 00:44:39 shachaf, yes 00:44:51 shachaf, that old computer was 800x600, my phone is 720p 00:45:34 longbets.org, for example; though the topics must be "societally or scientifically important". 00:46:11 my phone has more CPU cores, more RAM, faster CPU, more non-volatile storage and a battery that lasts longer 00:46:12 longcats.org 00:46:13 This computer is codenamed POWERXY but it probably won't be its actual name. 00:46:14 zzo38: what is overcomplicated or reasonable performance? 00:46:23 "What kind of a phone Vorpal has in 12 years" might not be societally important. Arguably. 00:47:05 I wonder if societally is actually a word 00:47:08 fizzie, well the question could be generalised to "the current generation of PC gaming computers" and "the state of the art smartphones in 12 years time" 00:47:12 nortti: Like, I will omit some things not needed such as the overly complicated x86 or ARM9 (ARM2 is sufficient, I think), omit USB, omit HDMI, omit too much complicated built-in software (you can load it externally instead), etc 00:48:00 nortti, oh god you got zzo started on a rant 00:48:26 http://longbets.org/601/ 00:48:29 best bet 00:49:32 Other than those things, other features I plan is a complete manual (including internals and pinouts), open source hardware as much as possible and open source software 100% (for built-in software; external software may or may not be), jumpers on mainboard, and currently the plan of the external ports: 00:50:55 Why isn't http://longbets.org/291/ ruled on yet? 00:51:07 * CD/DVD (read-only) * Expansion port * Audio in and out, stereo for both * Composite video out * Component video out * Digi-RGB out * 4x 33SS input port * Compact flash * Panel with display and buttons 00:51:22 * Infrared receiver 00:51:27 fizzie: probably because longbets seems sort of dead 00:51:29 "If the US has not descended into Open Despotism, Pseudo-Democracy or Anarchy before the incumbent party holds its 2012 Presidential nominating convention, the challenger wins." 00:51:41 Given that they had the elections already, I assume that happened too? 00:51:50 fizzie: well you could argue pseudo-democracy 00:51:53 just sayin' 00:52:07 Maybe you should bet on your phone in a casino 00:52:17 Instead of on the computer. 00:52:24 elliott: "Descended" suggests "a different status from what existed at the time the bet was made". 00:52:27 The definition used there did involve not using a conventional nominating convention, though. 00:52:27 I'm not a betting person 00:52:52 I wonder how's it going with their clock, though. 00:53:02 In government form, the US is utterly identical to that of 2007 US. 00:53:17 except for different people? 00:53:44 btw, what are the party allegiances of the two supreme court justices who are likely to retire this term? 00:54:05 I like this one: http://longbets.org/129/ -- wherein the challenger (Brian Eno!) does it out of cynicism rather than disagreement. 00:55:29 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has joined. 00:55:38 elliott: well he still thought he'd win 00:55:40 just he didn't /want/ to win 00:55:48 so I guess you could call it insurance 00:56:36 ais523: well, I mean that you'd expect someone challenging to think the Republicans are just great and of course they'll win because they're awesome. 00:56:57 ais523: it's not really insurance, since the money goes to charity :P 00:57:13 -!- Arc_Koen has joined. 00:57:18 hello 00:57:21 well, I suppose Eno might think a Republican government might threaten the San Francisco Exploratorium 00:57:38 Built-in software might include: * Date/time * Filesystem drivers * Keyboard translation * Play audio CD * Forth interpreter * BASIC interpreter * TCP/IP driver * DVI to PCL and all of it runs on a single-tasking operating system. 00:58:00 O, and it will also include a copy of the printed manual on the hard drive in case you want to print another copy. 00:58:25 At least to me this seem reasonable; maybe you it isn't I don't know!!! 00:59:41 zzo38, no SCTP support? No USB? 00:59:50 pretty useless and dated system that 01:00:10 also who uses CDs any more 01:01:18 Vorpal: Correct; no USB. I think many complication and problem with USB, so instead it is 33SS (my own much simpler protocol, which will be documented; it has other advantages too such as self-cleaning). The DVD drive can load CD too, so even if you don't use CD, it has CD. 01:02:15 zzo38, I don't care about DVD or CD, I do however require USB 01:02:21 clearly not a computer for me that 01:02:50 If you don't want DVD/CD then unscrew and open it and remove the optical drive. 01:03:34 won't give me USB 01:03:41 Vorpal: obviously you don't want USB 01:03:53 zzo38, also what GPU will you use? 01:04:06 zzo38, something with OpenGL 4 support I hope? 01:04:09 -!- ais523 has quit. 01:04:14 Vorpal: Well, but it will make a space that you can add a USB or whatever. 01:04:43 zzo38, also how many cores will the CPU have? 01:04:53 oh and infrared? What is the point of IRDA? 01:05:11 bluetooth and wifi are much more useful 01:05:26 no ethernet mentioned either? 01:06:03 I wish more smartphones would ship with built-in FM transmitter 01:06:08 Vorpal: I intend to design my own PPU and APU with its own instruction sets; there is no need to compile C programs on the PPU/APU; but the CPU is a slight variant of ARM2 so you can compile C programs on it. Currently, design for CPU with single core but that might change. Infrared is for remote control. But I just forgot to mention ethernet. 01:06:46 zzo38, PPU? Also the Arithmetic Processing Unit (APU) is a part of the CPU, no? 01:06:47 The number of cores of CPU and that stuff depend much on things I currently do not know. 01:07:02 Vorpal: In this case, PPU means Picture Processing Unit, and APU is Audio Processing Unit. 01:07:02 FireFly, mine has that, it is kind of bad though. My old nokia had a less noisy one 01:07:03 -!- ztirf has quit (Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de). 01:07:24 zzo38, so what about high performance 3D graphics? 01:07:31 (Unlike the Famicom, though, they will be much more powerful and have instruction sets.) 01:08:12 Vorpal: High quality 3D graphics is not a priority. But I may see if it will be possible. 01:08:14 -!- MoALTz_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 01:08:21 In what way would a PPU differ from a GPU? 01:08:55 FireFly: The name, I guess. 01:09:34 The CPU is I intend to make a few modifications to the OpenCores Amber core, so GCC (but not LLVM) can compile programs targeting it, and it runs faster than an actual ARM2. 01:11:02 I have a FM transmitter in this phone, but I haven't managed to test it even once. 01:11:03 LLVM only support ARM7 and newer but it may be able to be modified to support ARM2 as well. 01:11:21 Reportedly the signal strength is quite frequency-dependent, due to physics. 01:11:54 Wifi and bluetooth can be useful although may be connected using the expansion port. However, this is just plan so far so maybe it will have built-in, but if it does have such thing built-in it will have a hardware switch to disable them. 01:12:09 I wish more smartphones would ship with built-in FM transmitter <-- oh I thought that was a typo for "reciever" 01:12:13 then I guess I don't have one 01:12:35 receiver* even 01:12:47 I didn't know there were phones with transmitters for that 01:12:52 Nokia N900 has a transmitter--it's useful for streaming music to the car radio 01:12:55 I haven't tried the receiver either. :p 01:13:14 FireFly, why not just use bluetooth for that? Or a cable 01:13:17 This is a N900; but there are other phones with the feature. 01:13:27 FireFly, the car I'm currently driving most support both 01:13:35 Requires no support from the car radio is the point, of course. 01:13:40 well okay 01:13:44 Vorpal: because most car radios I've used only support CD and FM 01:13:47 fizzie, but modern cars have that 01:13:56 But don't you have AM radio too? 01:14:01 Eh, probably 01:14:02 FireFly, modern Volvo V70 has that feature at least 01:14:18 Quite a few people still drive cars that are not terribly modern. 01:14:25 well yeah 01:14:33 it is awesome to drive modern cars though 01:15:21 The N900 also has a consumer-IR transmitter; lirc can use it to drive just about anything with an IR remote control, or so I believe. Haven't managed to bother trying it out either. 01:16:18 heh 01:16:20 ISTR there was a program to run through the "power off" key signals of the whole lirc remote db, so that if there's an annoying TV screen in a public place, you can just turn it off. 01:16:46 fizzie, very nice 01:17:00 There is some devices for such thing, however I may prefer to mute the TV 01:17:14 should be easy too 01:17:27 Yes, the apps might support that too. 01:17:32 Since usually only I don't like it because of the noise, and other people may still want to watch TV. 01:17:36 I never used the IR feature a lot 01:18:39 There's a single IR-controllable device here at home, so it's not terribly useful. (Well, possibly a second one too, though not in use.) 01:19:31 People with piles of them that don't want to buy a separate multi-purpose remote might find it more useful. 01:20:37 I think I have 3 such deviceds 01:20:39 At my house we have two TV sets, one DVD player, one DVD/VCR combination, which are currently connected and which use infrared. (There may be others which are not currently connected so are not in use.) 01:20:40 devices* 01:20:42 not a lot anyway 01:21:04 one TV, one DVD/VHS and one radio with IR based remotes 01:22:26 There's a receiver/amplifier kind of thing, and that's about it. (There's also a DVB-T USB stick with an IR receiver, but it's not in use since we stopped paying the TV access fee; next year it switches to a tax-funded scheme so maybe we'll dig it out though.) 01:22:51 In any case the stick'd be in a computer, and you don't need IR to speak to one of those. (Usually.) 01:24:23 It came with one of those really cheap-looking tiny plastic no-feel-to-the-buttons remotes. 01:25:22 heh 01:25:28 (But it did work with lirc so it's possible to use anything else too. Assuming close-enough carrier frequency anyway.) 01:25:36 The DVD/VCR can playback and record on both drives, even simultaneously. If we want to record a TV show to be able to watch later we will use the VHS, but if we want to keep it or transfer it to computer will use DVD. Once my brother want to put a recording of Super Smash Bros. Brawl so we recorded it on a DVD video and then copy to his computer. 01:28:25 (The consumer IR receivers tend to have some kind of hardware filter so that they sense only a particular carrier freq (typically 38 kHz) signal, presumably to make them less suspectible to noise from other IR sources. 01:28:58 Sunlight is an IR source, so stuff that doesn't discriminate can have problems with that 01:30:18 Yeah; it's just not always the same frequency, so there can be (signal strength) problems mixing remotes and receivers. 01:31:06 just make the remote blast on a lot of frequencies? 01:31:38 But both the remotes and the receivers are fixed-frequency devices, is the problem. 01:32:06 Certainly if you're making a multifunction remote, that's a possibility. 01:32:43 But not for repurposing an old remote for device X, while having a receiver scavenged from device Y. 01:32:43 indeed 01:32:55 oh well, good night 01:33:26 I remember making a lirc remote file for a really old TV remote I had from a smoke-came-out-years-earlier TV set; happened to work out well enough with whatever I was using as the receiver. 01:37:27 -!- Vorpal has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 01:41:57 @ping 01:41:58 pong 01:42:09 Yet my client claims 9.3 second lag 01:42:10 Or was 01:42:12 idgi 01:42:57 lag's imprecise, since it checks by pinging, and it only does that occasionally 01:54:58 Maybe this computer I design will include in packaging: * Game controllers * RJ45 cables (used for ethernet and 33SS) * Keyboard * CompactFlash card * Complete manual (with tabs) * Remote control * DVD with many games included * RCA cables * [If you want printer, mouse, screwdriver, extra game controller, etc you have to get it separately.] 01:58:14 Also such things as USB adapter, NES/Famicom cartridge adapter, product catalog, floppy drive, you also need to get it separately, in some cases must be third party, or you can built it yourself from publicly available files and schematics. 02:06:21 -!- ogrom has joined. 02:29:05 -!- copumpkin has joined. 02:48:45 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined. 02:49:54 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 02:51:23 -!- ogrom has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 02:51:40 -!- ogrom has joined. 02:55:43 * pikhq_ looks forward to *somebody* being pissed at him 02:56:11 "So, yeah. I'm bisexual. I'm an atheist. Pitchforks on the right, high fives on the left, please." 02:57:03 Voting for Famicompo is now open. 02:57:27 where is famicompo 03:00:48 http://famicompo-mini.com/compo/vol9/ 03:01:57 For voting, click one of the bottom two triangles (for the section you want to vote: original/cover) in the header, select "Entry" and fill the form, but first download and listen to the files. 03:05:46 i dont read the kanjisauce 03:06:57 Some of them are English, though; submissions and comments are accepted in English and in Japanese. 03:06:59 漢字ソース読める。 03:07:24 (kannsì so-su yomeru. kanji sōsu yomeru. I read the kanjisauce.) 03:07:52 However, if you download file and use program to play .NSF (NES/Famicom emulator can usually be used for this), you can listen to music. 03:09:13 -!- ogrom has quit (Quit: Left). 03:14:22 anyone here has a cool simple arithmetical function implementing logical not (0 -> 1 everything else -> 0) with +-*/% ? 03:15:26 Does using absolute value count as arithmetical 03:15:27 ? 03:15:41 Oh, I guess not 03:15:54 no, i doesn't :( 03:16:05 You can use exponent (0^(0^x)) but I don't know using those operation. 03:16:15 I mean (0^x) 03:16:42 (0^(0^x)) make 0 to 0 and nonzero to 1 03:17:32 hmm nice 03:17:46 though not gonna solve my problem 03:18:04 I thought 0^0 was undefined 03:18:05 but I think I can work my way without it 03:18:14 FreeFull: it is, unless you define it 03:18:26 and good people define it to 1 03:18:35 Multiply by x, add one, mod 1 fail on -1 03:18:41 * Sgeo fails 03:19:29 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving). 03:19:36 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined. 03:19:37 anyone here has a cool simple arithmetical function implementing logical not (0 -> 1 everything else -> 0) with +-*/% ? 03:19:37 I think it is actually related to a Haskell type like (x -> Zero) 03:19:40 Arc_Koen: If rather than everything else you had a specific value in mind, it'd be easier 03:20:00 If you are treated the type as arithmetic/logic instead of type. 03:20:01 0 -> -1 you could use (x+1)*(-1) 03:20:13 I'd point out that you're trying to create a discontinuous function by composition of continuous ones, but % isn't continuous. 03:20:31 0+1 = 1 1 * -1 = -1 03:20:32 good point 03:20:34 %2 seems an obvious place to start 03:20:40 -1 + 1 = 0 0 * -1 = 0 03:20:46 maybe as last step 03:20:51 like 03:21:07 oh, you could try all the modulos 03:21:15 is / integer division? 03:21:16 Say, something I've wondered for a little while. 03:21:19 because 03:21:21 if it is 03:21:28 or something 03:21:39 yes, it is 03:21:39 (x/(x-1)+1)%2 might work 03:21:43 Are there any computable sets of axioms that uni--no, not that. 03:21:50 oh wait 03:21:52 sorry 03:21:59 Phantom__Hoover: Basically trying to create a function that takes integers and only has a spike at x=0 03:22:00 well i think it is 03:22:00 (x/(x-1/2)+1)%2 03:22:04 And is flat elsewhere 03:22:05 will work on all integers 03:22:20 Are there any operating systems that, instead of using virtual memory and system calls and all that, work by recompiling all executed code so that it doesn't even try to do prohibited stuff? 03:22:31 FreeFull, yes; that's discontinuous. 03:22:37 quintopia: Integers have half values now? 03:22:41 FreeFull: yeah I just want 0 -> something nonzero anything nonzero -> 0 03:22:55 FreeFull: yeah i should said 0.5 03:22:58 I guess the Java platform, and pretty much every application virtual machine, works that way. 03:23:20 You said it had to take integers, not that all intermediate values had to be integers 03:23:56 ((x/2)-(x*2)+1)%2 ?? 03:24:07 FreeFull: the dirac delta function only has a spike at a particular value, though it's value at that point is infinite 03:24:17 ohhhh wait 03:24:18 do you mind if the nonzero value is "infinity"? 03:24:25 you're restricting this only to the integers 03:24:30 Integers don't have infinity 03:24:31 that opens it up a lot 03:24:51 Wait 03:24:54 Mine wouldn't work 03:24:57 Derp 03:25:12 (x/(x-0.5)+1)%2 works for all integer x 03:25:21 erm 03:25:25 quintopia: That only works if you've got floating point somewhere 03:25:30 oh 03:25:32 well 03:25:40 it doesnt work at 1 anyway 03:25:59 the 0.5 would need to be like...0.9 03:26:05 or 03:26:07 0.1 03:26:13 0.1 would be best 03:26:15 so yeah 03:26:19 no it wouldn't 03:26:19 different ideas... 03:26:32 0.125 would be much better 03:26:57 lol 03:27:55 quintopia: You're also assuming that floats get rounded rather than, say, floored 03:28:12 i was assuming floor 03:28:23 but yeah 03:28:27 a minute 03:28:48 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 03:29:19 ((x-1)%256)/255 03:29:20 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 03:29:22 1/(2*x+1) maybe? 03:29:28 Let me plot that 03:29:35 Actually no 03:29:37 It wouldn't work 03:29:40 -!- DH____ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 03:29:41 this maps 0 to 255/255 03:29:48 and everything alse to small/255 which is 0 03:30:11 the words 'lagrange' and 'interpolation' are creeping steadily into my mind 03:30:46 I just have the graph of 1/x stuck in my head 03:31:09 But division by zero is not kosher 03:31:35 Arc_Koen: Is x signed or unsigned? 03:32:05 well in my very specific case it was a signed integer that I restrained to 0-255 03:33:08 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 03:33:19 can we restrict this to the positive integers? 03:33:37 well 03:33:40 of course we can 03:33:43 nvm 03:33:43 -!- nooodl has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 03:35:35 assuming / does truncation 03:35:44 1/(x*x+1) 03:35:46 should work 03:36:11 i dunno why i didnt think of it before 03:36:24 I was thinking the same thing, at the same time 03:36:32 its graph is the hat shape that hits 1 at zero and is between 0 and 1 everywhere else 03:36:35 * FreeFull fires up gnuplut 03:36:40 so do greatest integer to it and bam 03:37:17 in fact you can make a continous version that is arbitrarily close to what you want without truncation 03:37:26 name 1/(x^n+1) 03:37:39 Yeah 03:37:41 This should work 03:37:45 as n->infty, that goes to "zero everywhere and 1 at zero" 03:37:50 For negative numbers 03:37:52 And positive 03:38:05 Just 1/(x*x+1) if you restrict to integers 03:38:42 you mean "just 1/(x*x+1) if you use integer division" 04:06:50 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 04:07:16 Well, sure 04:08:46 why not just 1/(x+1)? 04:09:57 oh, maybe to include negative integers as well 04:10:10 well thank you for your help and good night 04:14:20 19:22:37 i'll take a moment to plug my tiny thread library: http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/spawn/0.2/doc/html/Control-Concurrent-Spawn.html 04:14:24 Nostalgia. :-( 04:16:25 -!- Arc_Koen has quit (Quit: It's a ship. It goes through the gate.). 04:24:06 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 04:25:08 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has joined. 04:31:17 -!- segorev has joined. 04:32:14 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has quit (Quit: Leaving). 04:34:28 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has joined. 04:36:54 For voting for Famicompo, I choose to: listen to files at random and vote them without seeing tht title, and without caring if it is original/cover, voting each song of a multisong file individually (the vote to send will be whichever is smallest, unless they are the same song with variation, in which case the largest number use instead). 04:37:26 Some comments may be written at this time, too. And then, read the titles, relisten if necessary, to write additional comments. 04:37:56 All of this is written in a local file. After is all written, to copy it to the form to send to Famicompo. 04:38:25 Do you think this way is reasonable? 04:41:37 -!- copumpkin has joined. 04:44:32 plug plug plug 04:44:47 shachaf: I saw rwbarton at a party 04:44:57 i told him that his excellent python quiz has fallen off the internet 04:45:05 then we subjected someone else at the party to the python quit 04:45:08 quiz- 04:46:15 kmc: whoa, he's a real person? 04:47:13 Which Python quiz? 04:47:28 copumpkin: Sure! He was at HacBoston. 04:47:39 oh? 04:47:47 I must just suck 04:47:58 http://web.archive.org/web/20101009122154/http://web.mit.edu/rwbarton/www/python.html ? 04:49:01 kmc: For a few minutes ghc-core used Spawn. 04:49:41 i bet i could do that quiz 04:50:26 try it 04:50:33 I like #3 04:51:35 Oh, the quiz wasn't lost forever. 04:54:56 shachaf: heh 04:55:13 i like #4 04:56:14 ahahahaha 05:00:58 I like #3 just because most people see it and think the answer is one of two things, and it turns out to be neither 05:03:51 heh 05:04:01 I don't even understand what the third line means 05:04:55 It's a generator comprehension 05:05:04 Think along the lines of a Haskell list comprehension 05:05:24 ahahahahahahahahahahah 05:05:45 that's hilarious 05:05:49 why does it do that? 05:05:49 I'm curious, what's so hilarious 05:06:19 The snake oil programming language. 05:06:23 Well, knowing that there's a trick, I had some idea of what it was, but yeah, that's surprising 05:06:59 31... huh? 05:07:52 Well, generator expressions make generators which are lazy, so that's part of it 05:08:19 i would understand 11, I would understand 33, I do not understand 31. 05:08:32 Oh 05:08:33 i.e. I am the rube copumpkin prophesied 05:08:59 I think people would have guessed either 11 or 21 05:09:04 it only captures one of the two variables 05:09:12 I've had people argue that it's expected behavior, too 05:09:14 but it's bullshit 05:09:16 What, why. 05:09:19 guys!! 05:09:20 no spoilers 05:09:23 i wanted to do that quiz 05:09:28 now i never can 05:09:28 ever 05:09:28 you'd fail 05:09:29 The answer is bullshit. Spoil'd 05:09:31 it makes no sense at all 05:09:32 copumpkin: no im good 05:09:34 im super good 05:09:37 But seriously, what the fuck? 05:09:57 * Sgeo suddenly is uncomfortable with Python 05:10:07 How do you know which variable is captured? 05:11:28 #1 makes no sense 05:11:29 It's just the first, huh. Crappy implementation. 05:12:01 -!- Frooxius has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 05:12:19 #1 is at least consistent. No fresh binding for the loop. 05:12:47 Ah 05:13:05 all the x's in the lambdas are the same x, which ends at 99. 05:13:16 Bike, you mean i? 05:13:20 er, yes. 05:13:34 I corrected Bike! I can die happy now! 05:13:39 Though I have no idea how you'd rebind a variable in Python. 05:14:06 putting in an i=i doesn't work... 05:14:51 Sgeo: #1 is the same thing that would happen in Scheme 05:14:58 if you faithfully translated the mutating 'for' loop 05:15:06 closures close over mutable variables, not over values 05:15:08 in both Scheme and Python 05:15:52 In Python you can't mutate those variables, though. 05:15:52 Going to go see what Clojure does 05:15:56 as for "rebind a variable", there isn't a "let" construct 05:16:12 I know that much. 05:16:23 you introduce a new scope with a new function 05:16:38 oh, so just hack it with a lambda 05:16:43 so i think (lambda i: lambda x: x+i)(i) would do the expected thing 05:16:47 but is not very pythonic 05:17:00 The C++ thingy on IdeOne does Paredit but Clojure doesn't 05:17:19 yep, that works. 05:20:34 http://ideone.com/ErNJ7R 05:21:47 0 days since Sgeo last mentioned Clojure in #esoteric 05:21:53 so, what would you do to make it idiomatic, in the totally reasonable use-case of "I need an array of a hundred indexed adders" 05:22:06 An array of a hundred indexed adders isn't Pythonic, Bike. 05:22:22 You'd probably use objects or something. 05:22:41 Hmm, I'm not entirely sure what the most idiomatic thing to do would be 05:22:42 you don't say 05:22:53 Could use loop/recur, I guess 05:22:59 To make a vector 05:23:11 Bike: probably def adder(i): return lambda x: x + i 05:23:21 i've done this before anyway 05:23:29 how boringly reasonable 05:23:48 In Clojure, arrays aren't idiomatic, vectors are preferred 05:24:13 what's the difference 05:24:19 Vectors are immutable 05:24:35 And have different performance characteristics, I think 05:24:55 sometimes I have a transient wish that just for a brief moment words would mean things... 05:25:21 The word "functor" is always fun. 05:25:42 Each language that has "functors" has an entirely different and unrelated idea of what a functor is 05:26:18 also, how do you not know how to initialize a vector? that must be pretty basic 05:28:17 http://ideone.com/TwDf2E 05:28:21 This should be idiomatic 05:28:23 Could also map 05:28:38 Hmm, I have no real use for that vec 05:29:16 the problem isn't really something you'd want to actually do, it's just to demonstrate how a part of python works 05:29:17 Bike, because I derped 05:43:29 Apparently my recent Facebook post was "aggressive". 05:44:09 Because simply saying "I am atheist" is... In some way an affront to people? 05:44:42 Someone said that in private? 05:44:54 Yes. 05:45:13 Mom trying to advise me of a potential shit storm. 05:45:48 well, she's right about that much 05:46:26 Also I'm bi. Wheeee 06:01:37 -!- Tod-Autojoined has joined. 06:02:01 -!- TodPunk has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 06:05:56 pikhq_: how could you! 06:25:11 With ease! 06:26:39 iamatheist 06:26:47 Smartass. 06:53:01 where abouts are you? Not a major city, I take it 06:53:32 Who do you ask? 06:54:52 Gracenotes: Colorado Springs, CO 06:55:18 hi Gracenotes 06:55:30 What're you doing here? 06:56:25 Being a language enthusiast 06:58:56 Last I was here was a few years ago... 06:59:16 Sounds right. 07:03:14 -!- hagb4rd|outoford has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 07:05:43 -!- hagb4rd|outoford has joined. 07:12:45 pikhq_: I suspect that the “aggressive” part was “pitchforks on the right, high fives on the left”, particularly because I imagine those directions were not chosen arbitrarily. 07:13:12 Actually, I did not see the political implications of that until literally just now. 07:13:18 Hahaha 07:13:28 Well played, sir. 07:15:43 man, my department sort of idolizes bill tutte 07:42:38 I should probably eat 07:42:50 I already ate today, 3 slices of pizza and ice cream, but should really eat dinner. 07:44:47 Ice cream by the slice. 07:45:00 kmc: I heard 99¢ pizza is back to 99¢. :-( 07:48:48 I'm actually bored on the Internet right now. 07:48:51 It's a weird feeling. 07:49:10 hi 07:49:41 hi 07:50:24 HELLO KALLISTI 07:50:40 how are you 07:51:25 CURIOUS AS TO WHY YOU ARE SHOUTING VIA YOUR NICk 07:51:41 more like the ancient greek 07:53:36 -!- ztirf has joined. 07:58:32 `welcome ztirf 07:58:44 ztirf: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) 08:01:49 -!- hagb4rd|outoford has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 08:03:57 -!- hagb4rd|outoford has joined. 08:05:21 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:08:03 I have an idea for another esoteric language 08:08:19 KALLISTI: What idea? Write in list of ideas 08:08:41 The list of ideas is the topic, right? 08:09:16 List of ideas is one of the articles in esolang wiki. However, I mean mention your idea on the IRC too if you like to do so. 08:16:16 shachaf: kind of a mixture between traditional expression based languages, with a tree writing system 08:16:32 Why are you telling me? 08:16:39 I hate all esolangs. 08:16:42 zzo38: ^ 08:16:46 shachaf: good point 08:18:17 I hate esolangs too 08:21:00 Why? 08:27:35 -!- zzo38 has quit. 08:38:49 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has quit (Quit: Leaving). 08:54:38 This seems to be an odd channel to be in for someone who hates esolangs 08:54:46 Although, since it's always off topic, maybe not. 08:55:22 *almost always. The same way that a random number between 0 and 1 will almost never be exactly 0.5 08:57:48 -!- Bike has quit (Quit: leaving). 09:19:52 -!- hagb4rd|outoford has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 09:24:27 -!- segorev has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 09:24:58 -!- hagb4rd|outoford has joined. 09:43:40 I are hungry. 09:45:43 -!- ztirf has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 10:04:21 -!- ztirf has joined. 10:05:04 -!- Vorpal has joined. 10:16:54 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 10:22:50 -!- nooga has joined. 10:31:00 Minor Clojure annoyance time: 10:31:06 (channel* & {:keys [grounded? permanent? transactional? messages description meta], :as options}) 10:31:22 I really don't need to know the exact details of the destructuring that some function uses on its arguments 10:31:39 That :as options thing is not something that the user of a function would really care about 10:50:23 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 10:50:54 -!- copumpkin has joined. 11:04:40 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello). 11:11:26 -!- nooodl has joined. 11:19:17 -!- Slereah has joined. 11:19:20 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 11:47:35 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 12:24:06 -!- ztirf has quit (Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de). 12:40:42 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 12:41:13 -!- copumpkin has joined. 12:42:43 -!- Arc_Koen has joined. 12:53:11 -!- atriq has joined. 13:03:17 -!- atriq has quit (Quit: lunch). 13:03:44 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 13:03:57 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 13:23:38 -!- carado has joined. 13:24:15 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 13:24:42 -!- Sgeo has joined. 13:40:36 -!- atriq has joined. 13:45:05 -!- atriq has quit (Client Quit). 14:42:26 -!- nooga has joined. 15:10:42 -!- epicmonkey has joined. 15:14:04 -!- Frooxius has joined. 15:29:53 -!- ais523 has joined. 15:39:11 if you ever want to see what happens if the women ever take control come to cologne on a 11.11. 15:41:52 it's like in the story of sir galahad in the movie of monty python 15:42:34 castle anthrax yess 15:54:48 what happens on 11.11? 16:01:18 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 16:26:26 kmc: I guess you better not wear a tie, or lace-up shoes 16:34:41 kmc, Rememberance Day... 16:34:57 I have no idea what the hell hagb4rd|outoford is doing, other than that it's in rather poor taste. 16:35:13 oh damn, *Remembrance 16:37:49 ah yeah i have monday off of work for this same reason 16:38:53 I thought it was a Commonwealth thing? 16:45:10 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remembrance_Day#Similar_observances_outside_the_Commonwealth 16:45:59 in the USA it's Veteran's Day; we have a separate Memorial Day too 16:46:44 i guess the latter is for the dead and the former is for all veterans 16:55:30 -!- ztirf has joined. 17:08:34 -!- Bike has joined. 17:10:18 -!- ztirf has quit (Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de). 17:23:11 -!- segorev has joined. 17:58:32 -!- elliott has joined. 17:58:52 -!- zzo38 has joined. 18:12:57 -!- Tod-Autojoined has changed nick to TodPunk. 18:48:30 i have joined ##posix and ##unix 18:49:06 not affiliated with the Open Group, the Organisation internationale de normalisation, or SCO Group 19:11:43 -!- R3d-S0u| has joined. 19:12:33 hi 19:14:13 hi 19:18:56 How to destroy the celebration with a trumpet http://youtu.be/QxnY2SWZTvk 19:19:45 We have a "Kaatuneiden muistopäivä" ("memorial day for the fallen") for people who died in any wars or such involving Finland, but it's strategically placed on a Sunday (third Sunday of May) so as to not result in any extra time off. 19:28:13 -!- R3d-S0u| has left. 19:36:54 fizzie, sneaky 19:38:27 -!- atriq has joined. 19:42:53 Oh, and today was also "Father's Day" here; and apparently in Estonia, Sweden, Norway and Iceland too; even though most of the rest of the world has it as the third Sunday of June instead. 19:43:03 heh 19:44:45 "More phone calls are made in the United States during Mother's Day than during Father's Day, but the percentage of collect calls on Father's Day is much higher, making it the busiest day of the year for collect calls." 19:44:48 Curious. 19:45:22 fathers calling their kids collect as a subtle way of reminding them they should've called? 19:45:46 No, I think it means you work too much. 19:51:13 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 19:52:06 huh, Raspberry Pi lacks an RTC? I guess that means it won't keep time when off? Weird design choice 19:52:18 Can you add one? 19:52:36 There are some projects adding one, I believe. 19:52:44 It certainly has enough interfacing options for that. 19:52:59 And I suppose they just didn't want to bother adding a battery on the thing, those are so inelegant. 19:52:59 don't know, I'm just looking at the specs atm, I'm considering getting a Raspberry Pi 19:53:13 I've got one, and I use it for absolutely nothing. 19:53:23 Also got it like week before they did that 512M upgrade. 19:53:28 I'm wondering if it can start on power connected, after a power outage or such 19:53:29 hm 19:53:40 It doesn't have an "off" mode. 19:53:43 ah 19:53:44 It's on if it gets power. 19:54:04 so when you shut it down it displays "please turn off the power now" or such? 19:54:12 how much did it cost btw? 19:54:32 IIRC shutdown -h just shut the HDMI down, so it didn't display anything. 19:54:38 heh 19:54:49 fizzie, well how do you unmount stuff before pulling the power? 19:54:58 will shutdown -h do that at least? 19:55:09 Sure, it'll do that before halting. 19:55:13 right 19:55:33 It just doesn't "turn off", since it doesn't have a power switch. 19:55:38 anyway I figured out that I need a matching SD card (that looks complicated to find), a HDMI->DVI converter and a power supply for it to be usable for me 19:55:56 possibly a case would be a good idea 19:56:13 And it cost that official price, $35, plus some amount of money for the delivery. I forget exactly. It was from Element 14, anyway, and it was a friend ordering a bunch, so I wasn't directly involved in the order. 19:56:25 I do have a use case for it though, but one that require more than a 4 GB SD card by far. 16 or 32 probably 19:56:40 Should be available in a local store 19:56:44 I just used a scrappy no-name 2G SD card that I had from Italy somewhere. 19:56:49 I got bored and my computer was refusing to connect to the internet, so I started writing a brainfuck interpreter 19:57:14 (Bought it when running out of storage taking photos thereabouts.) 19:57:17 FireFly, those parts? Probably, maybe not the SD card though, it seems it is is very picky with series 19:57:52 I just plugged in a card I had at home, and it worked like a charm 19:58:04 So did I. 19:58:07 anyway how does linux keep the system time with no RTC? 19:58:16 I'm curious now 19:58:19 In fact I think I run it on a microSD card through a converter 19:58:21 Uh.. it's not like x86 Linux would use the RTC for timekeeping either. 19:58:35 fizzie, sure but what does it use instead? 19:59:06 I think it can pretty much use anything that ticks 19:59:07 I just know the x86 timer sources, and I've forgotten even those; there was at least TSC and HPET timers. 19:59:09 CPU frequency is not all that stable even when you don't do dynamic frequency stuff 19:59:21 TSC on modern x86 CPUs is invariant. 19:59:25 ah nice 19:59:28 (Of frequency.) 19:59:38 HPET is pretty nice as well 20:01:58 Vorpal: http://www.webhallen.com/se-sv/hardvara/159735-sandisk_secure_digital_ultra_16gb seems to work well: http://www.google.com/search?q=raspberry%20pi%20sdsdu-016g-u46 20:02:12 hm 20:02:18 Is there a version with CompactFlash? 20:02:25 As for power, I got my power out of the N900's USB charger so far. 20:02:39 fizzie, yeah I kind of use my USB charger for my phone 20:02:46 and my old phones did not do charging by USB 20:02:53 I don't use it all the time, though. 20:03:14 The plan for my possible Pi would require it being on constantly 20:03:37 For more permanent use I was thinking of getting a suitable powered USB hub; the wiki lists quite a few models that reportedly can do the "provides power for Pi as well as a USB hub for it" thing. 20:03:46 But that's still on the TODO list. 20:04:06 fizzie, wait, can it use power over the USB-A ports? 20:04:11 or what do you mean 20:04:24 No, but you can use one of the USB hub's outgoing ports to provide power to the Pi. 20:04:31 ah 20:04:50 (Okay, technically speaking I believe you can hack it to accept "feedback" power via the USB-A ports too, but that'd be a real kludge.) 20:04:51 won't it only provide 100 mA unless the device asks for more? 20:05:16 I thought the power port didn't have any pins except the power ones connected 20:05:49 It doesn't. But if it's a USB-BC dedicated charging port, it should push out something like 1A or more by default. 20:06:02 also, how fast cards would be useful in the pi, what can the host controller deal with 20:06:09 would a class 10 card be overkill? 20:06:30 And apparently many hubs are perfectly willing to provide power out to ports that are disconnect w.r.t. D+/D-. 20:06:41 heh 20:06:42 I was thinking I'll just read the wiki and pick some model that's known to work well. 20:07:08 anyway what would a HDMI->DVI converter cost, I have no monitors with HDMI 20:07:29 and I won't use the display past initial setup and possible debugging 20:07:39 HDMI-DVI-cables seem to cost about the same as HDMI-HDMI and DVI-DVI cables. 20:07:47 hm 20:07:57 Don't know about adapters, but they should be really cheap according to logic. 20:08:59 Sadly, logic is not always a reliable source when it comes to hardware prices. 20:09:09 indeed 20:09:22 I'm wondering it it requires an active cable 20:09:27 It doesn't. 20:09:34 might be DP->HDMI or DP->DVI that does then 20:09:47 HDMI is just DVI minus the analog and dual-link parts, plus something about digital audio. 20:10:13 DP-to-DVI/HDMI may need an active cable, depending on the source. 20:10:56 I believe many graphics cards have DP connectors that you can connect to DVI/HDMI via passive adapters, since they can provide the TMDS signal over the DP pins. 20:11:44 But there's things like EyeFinity cards with 3*DP where you can connect up to two DVI devices with passive adapters, but the third needs an active one, because the card runs out of suitable clock generators for TMDS output. 20:12:12 (The active DP-to-DVI devices cost an absurd amount of money when I was looking at them.) 20:12:37 fizzie, hm I have an AMD card that can drive up to 4 monitors iirc, but it has like 2 DVI (one DVI-I one DVI-D), one DP and one HDMI 20:12:40 or something weird like that 20:13:22 It sounds somewhat probable that the DP port couldn't drive a passive-adaptor DVI, then, given how many DVI-ish outputs it already has. 20:13:38 well, I only use a single DVI output currently 20:14:19 "Dual-mode DisplayPort (also known as DisplayPort++[26]) can directly emit single-link HDMI and DVI signals using a simple passive adapter that adjusts for the lower voltages required by DisplayPort." 20:14:33 Gimp in Ubuntu Unity is annoying 20:14:41 Apparently they've invented a special logo for that, a DP with a ++ in it. 20:16:07 atriq, oh? 20:16:27 fizzie, heh, well then I know my laptop would need an active adapter too 20:16:55 -!- sirdancealot7 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 20:18:35 -!- sirdancealot7 has joined. 20:18:52 that they even released a version without ethernet is confusing to me 20:19:23 It's officially an educational tool, you don't necessarily need networking for that. 20:19:31 really, is it? 20:19:48 I thought it was just a super-awesome product 20:20:06 is this olpc or something like that 20:20:11 Vorpal, you can't go straight from the toolbox to a file menu thingy 20:20:12 coppro, RPi 20:20:19 ah 20:20:23 atriq, hm? 20:20:40 oh gimp 20:20:41 right 20:20:57 atriq, yeah that is stupid 20:21:11 蓬Π 20:21:28 Because it only shows the thingies for the window you're on, and the toolbox is a separate window 20:22:06 fizzie, so total cost is something like $70 or so when shipping, SD card, power supply, monitor cable, case and so on are included 20:22:23 not quite as cheap suddenly 20:22:52 atriq, there are two issues here: 1) unity is terrible 2) gimp has a terrible GUI on *anything* 20:23:25 Vorpal: "-- developed in the UK by the Raspberry Pi Foundation with the intention of stimulating the teaching of basic computer science in schools." 20:23:35 Gimp's bad GUI is a tradition 20:23:37 All their public statements have emphasized the education thing. 20:23:41 If you want a better GUI, use something else 20:25:01 Vorpal: They e.g. didn't include the MPEG2 hw-decode license with the board officially because they didn't have any idea people would actually buy Pi's for media-center use. 20:25:45 fizzie, hah 20:26:01 fizzie, how could they have missed that angle? 20:26:16 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 20:26:53 Vorpal: I suppose they were just so single-mindedly doing the "cheap computer for schools" angle. 20:27:00 heh 20:27:26 One of the stated reasons for the 512M bump was the unexpected uses people kept putting the thing to. 20:27:52 well, I would manage on 256M but 512M is certainly a lot nicer 20:28:57 hrrm, given the lack of RTC, won't it try to fsck on every boot, at least if you use ext3/4 20:29:07 fizzie, oh and what filesystem do you use on the card? 20:29:51 It's fixed-fraction shared with the GPU, so it's generally something closer to 192M or 224M of RAM for the system. 20:30:20 ouch 20:30:28 And I just put whatever raspbian-installer put there, which was probably ext3; really, since I don't have any use case for it yet, I just put something in there to see that it boots. 20:30:40 fizzie, fixed fraction? can you configure it with a boot flag? 20:30:57 fizzie, irc bouncer obviously 20:31:11 Yes, it's configurable but not changeable at "runtime". 20:31:16 ah 20:31:48 so basically after the initial setup I would configure it to give me a minimum sized display in case I need to debug something, since it will be headless for my use case 20:31:50 And the lowest supported for the GPU even for a headless system is 16M, I believe. 20:32:19 fizzie, anyway use case ideas: irc bouncer, simple server to ssh into and initiate WOL from to wake up your beefy computer at home 20:32:57 I have my 4*gigE mini-ITX Atom box for IRC/ssh-into/DNS/router/etc. box, though. 20:33:28 that is probably using several times as much power as the RPi though 20:33:33 Admittedly RPi would use less juice, but getting four network holes into it sounds nontrivial. 20:33:42 Yes, well, kWh's aren't *that* expensive. 20:33:46 (Yet.) 20:33:55 fizzie, well I have a switch anyway so... 20:34:17 A switch won't firewall anything. 20:34:45 well duh, I have an ADSL modem with router and such built in as well 20:35:15 anyway what about VLAN? That would work no? 20:35:50 you would configure the switch to send everything external to the RPi, let it do the firewall, and resend on a different VLAN tag 20:36:10 (however at this point your switch is so expensive it isn't worth it any more) 20:36:31 I don't have switches that manageable, and anyway I doubt you could push terribly much traffic over the RPi's USB-100baseT-ethernet hole. 20:36:36 fizzie, funny thing, my desktop intel express pro gbit whatever networking thingy actually support VLAN 20:36:54 fizzie, wait, USB? How does USB come into it? 20:37:05 RPi's Ethernet is connected over USB. 20:37:11 ouch 20:37:15 what a weird design 20:37:26 It's part of the combined USB hub / Ethernet chip from SMC. 20:37:52 heh 20:38:04 yeah I thought it was just two features of the same chip 20:38:24 rather than the ethernet being visible over the USB controller 20:38:35 The A model has a single USB port (on the ARM SoC); the B model has the SMC chip permanently wired into that, and the SMC provides a USB hub with three logical ports, one of which is directly connected to the USB-Ethernet thing. 20:39:27 heh 20:39:38 so is that USB 2.0? 20:39:45 I think so, yes. 20:39:59 well, can't expect USB 3 from that thing 20:40:33 The ARMv6 thing is also a bit of a shame; no NEON or anything. 20:40:52 true, maybe I should just hold off to a future generation of the RPi 20:41:45 Re VLAN, I am under the impression that most Linux drivers support 802.1q VLANs more or less well; certainly it works well enough for me. (I've got a VLAN for making sure traffic from the Atom box to the webserver laptop doesn't accidentally leak over the VDSL2 pipe, since I don't trust that ZTE piece of crap to do anything correctly.) 20:42:23 heh 20:42:48 fizzie, how do you set up VLAN under Linux btw? 20:43:22 iptables? 20:43:44 iproute2's "ip" tool can do it; there was also something earlier, 'vconfig' or something like that. 20:43:59 is it well documented for ip? 20:44:05 And distro-specific things; I think e.g. Debian's "/etc/network/interfaces" thing has syntax for it. 20:45:05 It's not terribly complicated, at least. ip link add link realif0 name realif0.42 type vlan id 42 and then you can configure the realif0.42 interface and everything sent there will be 802.1q-tagged with the tag 42 and sent over realif0. 20:45:21 (And everything thus tagged coming in from realif0 will instead appear in that interface.) 20:45:34 ah 20:45:49 how did that help with your atom box though? 20:46:13 Well. The network setup here is such that there's a VDSL2 box in bridging mode, connected to a switch with the server-laptop and the Atom box; the Atom box then isolates that DMZ area from the other network holes it has, namely LAN, wifi and the NAS box. 20:46:50 ah 20:46:59 I was worried that even with local 10/8 range IPs, internal traffic between the server-laptop and whatever's behind the Atom box would leak over the bridging VDSL2 box, since it's such a stupid device. 20:47:22 but does the switch handle the VLAN tags then? 20:47:27 or how does VLAN help 20:47:51 I made all that go over a VLAN, and configured the VDSL2 box's really poor filtering things never pass any 802.1Q traffic over the DSL link. 20:48:06 Okay, I still need to trust it to do that right, but at least I've made an attempt. 20:48:07 heh 20:48:24 why not put everything behind the atom box instead? 20:48:35 and have it DMZ to the server laptop 20:49:03 and put the NAS and the LAN on a common switch on the inside 20:49:23 I guess that'd be a possible setup; but it sounds like it'd need some slightly trickier configuration, since the server laptop needs to acquire a public IP over DHCP from the ISP. 20:49:42 oh you have multiple IPs? 20:49:43 nice 20:49:47 Okay, "needs" is in quotes. 20:49:56 They officially allow up to 5 public DHCP ips. 20:50:01 heh 20:50:22 fizzie, since it is a laptop couldn't you just access it over wifi instead? 20:50:52 I... suppose. Honestly, enabling wifi on it hasn't really even occurred to me. I'm not sure it has working wifi. 20:51:00 ah 20:51:11 It's kind of old, but not *that* old, so... well, it could go either way. 20:51:18 you could use BT maybe XD 20:51:25 (It's a Pentium-M 1.5 GHz thing.) 20:51:33 sure, should have wifi 20:51:37 or could at least 20:53:21 fizzie, how is the GPIO exposed to user space on the RPi? 20:53:31 something in /dev? 20:55:24 I forget exactly; it's some kind of a standard Linux approach to such things. 20:57:00 hm what real time versions of linux are there... 20:58:31 https://github.com/torvalds/linux/blob/master/Documentation/pinctrl.txt -- it drops into this infrastructure, I believe. 20:58:47 (And then you can use standard things to run I2C or whatever over the pins.) 20:59:43 hm 20:59:54 Doesn't seem to talk much about the userspace side of accessing these. 21:00:16 fizzie, well sure, it isn't exactly difficult to do I2C or whatever over plain GPIO by yourself. I have done that on AVR 21:00:38 Probably not, but it's nice not to reinvent wheels so much, sometimes. 21:01:03 Also, server-laptop's lspci doesn't list anything too wifi-ish, though I did learn something I didn't know before, namely that there's a firewire port on it somewhere. 21:01:19 -!- monqy has joined. 21:02:34 So if I had a suitable cable, I could run that firewire networking... except that the Atom board probably doesn't do firewire. 21:02:54 I don't think I've ever managed to actually use a firewire-connected anything at home. 21:04:01 I used firewire networking at one point to a desktop with only 100 mbit ethernet 21:04:07 sped up file transfer a lot 21:04:32 (I was regularly transferring several GB off it at that point 21:04:33 )( 21:04:39 s/($// 21:04:52 We had two firewire-capable laptops with us in Belgium, and only one Ethernet cable for the hotel's Interweb connection. 21:05:08 The wifi was a bit iffy in the room, so had to share the network connection over ad-hoc wifi. 21:05:27 Since we didn't have a firewire cable for using that instead. 21:06:05 heh 21:06:09 Not that the hotel's intertubes connection was fast enough for it to matter all that much. 21:06:29 firewire is getting kind of rare these days :/ 21:06:54 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has joined. 21:07:05 How's it going with Thunderbolt? Still anywhere except some iComputers? 21:09:20 This laptop's FireWire port is some kind of a "mini" connector. 21:09:42 same here 21:09:58 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:FireWire_cables.jpg the leftmost one. 21:10:08 same on this laptop 21:10:12 I have a vague feeling the iBook had a full-size port. 21:10:21 lucky for me I have a mini-to-fullsize cable 21:13:47 It's kind of funny that the S/PDIF optical-out on this thing seems to be always-on, so if you put anything to the right of the laptop, it's illuminated with a red glow from one of the 3.5mm audio jacks; the one that has the dual-purpose optical-S/PDIF out in it. 21:14:03 At least it's easy to remember which jack to plug it in by just putting a hand next to them all. 21:14:06 heh 21:14:18 that is kind of silly 21:14:37 Also it goes dark if I mute the sound, which is funny. 21:16:06 At least I have seen devices with optical audio are red even when off, so I don't know why it would be dark if muted. 21:16:32 It'd probably be red even if it were sending silence; I guess the driver turns the whole transmitter off somehow. 21:18:33 fizzie, this is the server laptop? 21:18:39 I guess muting is a reasonable idea then 21:19:00 No, it was the... uh, laptop-laptop. 21:19:04 right 21:19:29 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 21:20:14 Though for all I know the server-laptop could do the same thing; it does have on-board audio, after all. 21:20:47 Come to think of it, it probably has built-in speakers too; I mean, it *is* a laptop. 21:21:38 Well, you never know when the capability to remotely make a noise in that room could come in handy. 21:22:41 The SparcStation 5 had a rather impressive built-in speaker; I wasn't aware of that incidentally, and got quite a scare when I thought I'd just out of curiosity try to play an audio file. 21:23:04 heh 21:23:11 fizzie, you have a sparcstation? 21:23:34 It's been in the basement for quite a while, but yes. 21:24:07 It was my main router/IRC box for several years. 21:24:59 nice 21:25:09 why did you stop using it for that? 21:25:12 the power usage? 21:25:42 That, and it has (at least) two terribly loud fans, and I slept like two metres from it while in the one-room student apartment. 21:27:37 impressive you managed that 21:28:02 These days I don't even have a monitor I could display its console on, since I got rid of the big hulking CRT. 21:28:19 wow the RPi boot via the GPU. Weird 21:28:57 I've got a "Sun 13w3 to 4xBNC" cable for it, but it needs a CRT screen that has the BNC connectors and can do combined H/V sync. 21:29:11 what do you mean "combined H/V sync"? 21:29:18 same sync for horizontal and vertical? 21:29:32 Single wire for it; I don't know how it works. 21:29:32 and it counts the number of syncs to know where it is? 21:29:45 It could be a different kind of pulse. 21:29:48 The haskell tag on Tumblr has too much rugby 21:31:17 I really don't know; anyway, the CRT I had handled it fine. According to specs, it supported separate H/V sync (5xBNC, like VGA has), combined H/V sync (4xBNC), and even sync-on-green (3xBNC) reportedly used by some workstations. 21:33:13 heh 21:33:19 fizzie, you don't have that monitor any more? 21:33:27 how will you ever use your sparcstation then? 21:33:55 It can do serial console just fine. 21:34:08 ah 21:34:12 But I suppose I shall never see the fancy font any more. 21:34:21 it had a fancy font? 21:34:35 Fancy compared to 8x16 VGA, that is. 21:34:39 ah 21:34:55 Something like 12x22 and a correspondingly higher resolution. 21:35:15 The bitmaps are of course available from the Internet. 21:35:47 "As an aside, I also think the lower-right panel is misleading. A betting decision depends not just on probabilities but also on utilities. If the sun as gone nova, money is worthless. Hence anyone, Bayesian or not, should be willing to bet $50 that the sun has not exploded." 21:35:57 And I still have the Type 5 keyboard, but that's not very useful without a monitor for the actual console. 21:36:53 elliott, bet you all the american currency I have that the sun hasn't exploded 21:37:24 atriq: is that 0 21:37:58 I bet you a nonzero amount of american currency that the sun hasn't exploded 21:38:22 hm there is info on overclocking the RPi, but nothing on underclocking it 21:38:34 IMO it doesn't need to run at 700 MHz when the load is low 21:41:13 elliott, it's 0.01 21:41:41 Vorpal: http://wiki.stocksy.co.uk/wiki/Raspberry_Pi_Internet_in_a_box#Frequency_Scaling says that you can have it do the usual ondemand scaling at least for the [100 MHz, 700 MHz] range. 21:42:27 hm 21:42:32 (Apparently the "turbo mode" can also go downwards and not only upwards.) 21:43:37 fizzie, hm what are the steps here I wonder 21:43:46 100 MHz at a time? 21:44:44 Also, now that you spoke of the monitor issue, it's borderline possible there's also a native 13W3-connector monitor that'd work with the SparcStation in the same basement storage locker. I think the SGI Indy came with one, and I don't recall getting rid of it. 21:45:12 heh 21:45:17 you have an SGI Indy too? 21:45:18 fancy 21:45:32 fizzie, why did you buy those expensive workstations? 21:46:00 he probably got them used for almost-free 21:46:32 ah, used, right 21:47:33 Right. 21:48:13 -!- ais523 has quit. 21:48:41 The SparcStation came from an auction by a quirky company (Damicon Kraa) specializing in Sun stuff (in those days), and I think it cost somewhere around 100 eur. 21:49:12 And the Indy was completely free, surplus from the university when they got rid of them; it used to be in a classroom. 21:50:27 Also some guy in the Internet mailed me a SS5 motherboard with a faster CPU and an SBUS fast-ethernet-and-SCSI card for some ridiculously cheap price. 21:50:53 It might've even been some guy from this weird IRC channel called "#esoteric". 21:51:17 Those guys are weird 21:51:34 "weird" is a rather fitting word 21:51:57 Oh no! 21:52:09 I'm only the 25th top poster on the IWC forums! 21:52:13 I used to be 24th! 21:52:28 Very soon you won't be in the top 25 at all. 21:53:20 It's not too late! 21:53:24 I can make more posts! 21:53:25 Ahahaha! 22:01:55 -!- ztirf has joined. 22:04:33 `welcome ztirf 22:04:43 ztirf: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) 22:16:02 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:22:40 -!- segorev has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 22:24:58 -!- Jafet has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 22:49:09 -!- Lumpio- has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 22:50:06 Do you know how fast the clock speed of OpenCores Amber core is? I will need to know this. 22:50:29 -!- nooodl has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 22:51:02 Actually, more precisely, I would need to know how such things are figured out. 22:51:09 -!- Lumpio- has joined. 22:51:28 * pikhq_ blinks 22:51:51 Traditionally, Chinese abacii were hexadecimal. 22:52:15 zzo38: doesn't it come down to the physical gate delay of whatever system you synthesize it in? 22:52:19 They are? I didn't know that. 22:52:50 generally with FPGAs it's hard to say the max clock speed a priori because it depends on how all the gate layout and scheduling of shared interlinks goes 22:53:00 Yes, they were designed so each column represented numbers 0 through 15. 22:53:43 kmc: I would think so, but I don't know how you calculate it from that. The documentation for Amber says it is for Xilinx Spartan6, so I may use that at first until it is available to port it to a open-source FPGA, one-time-programmable FPGA, and/or ASIC. 22:54:37 Since it would have to be modified to work with different kind of FPGA anyways than Xilinx Spartan6, as far as I can tell. 22:55:32 pikhq_: I suppose you can still make up the hexadecimal abacus if you want to have one like that, though. 22:59:40 kmc: Do you know of Xilinx Spartan6 supports one-time-programmable? I would prefer to use one-time-programmable if possible, since it would not be useful to reprogram it if the FPGA is not open-source. 23:00:48 -!- Vorpal has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 23:01:26 i don't know 23:01:53 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 23:07:07 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 23:07:51 -!- heroux has joined. 23:14:26 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 23:24:42 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:24:58 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 23:30:57 -!- atriq has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:43:55 -!- ztirf has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 23:48:17 -!- ztirf has joined.