< 1352679531 821635 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com TOPIC #esoteric :A button to touch, a dial to turn, a key to hold | Days turn to nights turn to weeks turn to paper into rocks into plastic | http://phantom-hoover.tumblr.com/ | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ < 1352680686 880566 :hagb4rd|outoford!~perdito@koln-4db422bf.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :into words into wind < 1352680701 445824 :hagb4rd|outoford!~perdito@koln-4db422bf.pool.mediaWays.net NICK :hagb4rd < 1352680746 714637 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-4db422bf.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :into fear < 1352680828 426519 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks hagb4rd < 1352680840 106046 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-4db422bf.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're welcome elliott < 1352681098 847116 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric : should we really have my tumblr up there when it hasn't been updated in a month < 1352681126 896377 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-4db422bf.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course < 1352681175 198412 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :thagb4rd < 1352681230 967144 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-4db422bf.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean of course we can change it < 1352681244 79059 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-4db422bf.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1352681246 423622 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-4db422bf.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1352681324 585740 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-4db422bf.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :cookies? < 1352681925 57441 :DHeadshot!~DH____@unaffiliated/dh----/x-6288474 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1352682315 448903 :tswett!~tswett@unaffiliated/tswett PRIVMSG #esoteric :You know, it sure is weird that TINCSOATUDTNN. < 1352682349 829664 :tswett!~tswett@unaffiliated/tswett PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's some heady shit. < 1352682407 897949 :monqy!~help@pool-98-108-214-230.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1352682408 348412 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it. < 1352682439 449643 :monqy!~help@pool-98-108-214-230.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: you got me by way of sending me a message after i had already checked < 1352682470 11154 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: ;^) < 1352682666 977355 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Showing results for TINY STUDENT < 1352682667 482208 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :No results found for TINCSOATUDTNN < 1352682673 190386 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that some kind of ioctl < 1352682676 209561 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-254-65.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is no such thing as a...? < 1352682683 649026 :tswett!~tswett@unaffiliated/tswett PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is no computable set of axioms that uniquely defines the natural numbers. < 1352682709 318807 :monqy!~help@pool-98-108-214-230.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1352682803 773440 :ztirf!~ztirf@HSI-KBW-085-216-049-158.hsi.kabelbw.de QUIT :Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de < 1352682805 825303 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net QUIT :Quit: Arc_Koen < 1352683113 320930 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1352683142 685743 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: would you like to tell us another 1000 times < 1352683148 203828 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could compete with Sgeo talking about clojure < 1352683236 789112 :tswett!~tswett@unaffiliated/tswett PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure. < 1352683239 129642 :tswett!~tswett@unaffiliated/tswett PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is no computable set of axioms that uniquely defines the natural numbers. < 1352683258 207715 :tswett!~tswett@unaffiliated/tswett PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's just, like... < 1352683261 389237 :tswett!~tswett@unaffiliated/tswett PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's up with that? < 1352683266 256488 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-4db422bf.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1352683289 445535 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-4db422bf.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :pardon..go on < 1352683317 674821 :tswett!~tswett@unaffiliated/tswett PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't really have anything else to say. < 1352683534 980003 :monqy!~help@pool-98-108-214-230.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do they say, "if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all" < 1352683548 402578 :monqy!~help@pool-98-108-214-230.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do you think the natural numbers feel about that < 1352683785 599541 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-4db422bf.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :good tswett just keeps us aware of the wonders in this world < 1352683869 982281 :tswett!~tswett@unaffiliated/tswett PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't believe I've hurt the natural numbers' feelings by saying this about them. < 1352684455 366713 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-4db422bf.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :guess nobody likes to be calculable at all < 1352684524 189661 :tswett!~tswett@unaffiliated/tswett PRIVMSG #esoteric :But hm. How's this as a definition of the natural numbers... < 1352684570 105778 :tswett!~tswett@unaffiliated/tswett PRIVMSG #esoteric :Zero is a natural number. Every natural number has a successor. The successors of distinct natural numbers are distinct. Zero is not the successor of any natural number. No natural numbers exist except as required by the preceding statements. < 1352684596 468835 :tswett!~tswett@unaffiliated/tswett PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is not, of course, a set of axioms in first-order logic < 1352684735 67084 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm having the strangest feeling of deja vu here tswett < 1352684790 302117 :tswett!~tswett@unaffiliated/tswett PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh? < 1352684799 389974 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1352684804 132314 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's almost as if you've said the exact same thing before < 1352684853 35828 :tswett!~tswett@unaffiliated/tswett PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see. < 1352684861 488623 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-4db422bf.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it might be still true < 1352684902 283389 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-4db422bf.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but nevertheless.. what was this clojore thing? :p < 1352684914 886201 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1352684943 623222 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not in the mood to Python after a day of Clojure < 1352684950 565096 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But Pythoning is more important right now < 1352684987 189652 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or, I guess I could use another language as long as it runs on the server I have access too... unfortunately, the JVM doesn't work on it. And I'd rather use a language the other people in my group have a hope of understanding. < 1352685197 323047 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :python is fine < 1352685603 555479 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :looks like sgeo has the lead so far < 1352685716 789588 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :lead of? < 1352685733 225175 :tswett!~tswett@unaffiliated/tswett PRIVMSG #esoteric :My "axioms" almost seem well-defined, but I wonder if they're actually meaningful within any system of logic. < 1352685747 245165 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there a contest to mention clojure the most times < 1352685783 462343 :monqy!~help@pool-98-108-214-230.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's clojure vs natural numbers < 1352685792 68009 :tswett!~tswett@unaffiliated/tswett PRIVMSG #esoteric :The contest is whether Sgeo can mention Clojure more times than I mention the fact that TINCSOATUDTNN. < 1352685805 366117 :monqy!~help@pool-98-108-214-230.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wow you abbreviated it < 1352685810 959451 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-254-65.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :you've established a cutesy nickname, that must give you extra points < 1352685828 275758 :monqy!~help@pool-98-108-214-230.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that's what tincoastsutugjhgjgjlglj is < 1352685851 760544 :tswett!~tswett@unaffiliated/tswett PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's pronounced "Tincture Sud Tune", of course. < 1352685859 310424 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-254-65.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :sgeo should get an I'd Rather Be Clojurin' bumper sticker to keep up, maybe < 1352686065 303621 :tswett!~tswett@unaffiliated/tswett PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except no, I think it's actually pronounced "tiny student". < 1352686097 61303 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : lead of? < 1352686101 75076 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : tswett: would you like to tell us another 1000 times < 1352686101 122817 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : you could compete with Sgeo talking about clojure < 1352686135 862590 :tswett!~tswett@unaffiliated/tswett PRIVMSG #esoteric :But yes, what type of logic would that be? "No natural numbers exist except as required by the preceding statements." The naive way to do that would be to say something like, for all X, if the statement "the preceding statements imply that X exists" is not necessary, then X does not exist. < 1352686157 651312 :tswett!~tswett@unaffiliated/tswett PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course, "X exists" is not a meaningful predicate. < 1352686256 82397 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-254-65.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't it just "the smallest set satisfying these axioms" < 1352686286 601380 :tswett!~tswett@unaffiliated/tswett PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, the problem I have with that is that now you have to define "set". < 1352686356 63759 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-254-65.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :You were talking about what natural numbers are anyway. What the set of natural numbers is. < 1352686384 535743 :tswett!~tswett@unaffiliated/tswett PRIVMSG #esoteric :So? I can define a concept that happens to be a set without also defining the word "set". < 1352686423 876185 :tswett!~tswett@unaffiliated/tswett PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least, I can try to. < 1352686452 701735 :tswett!~tswett@unaffiliated/tswett PRIVMSG #esoteric :Really, we don't need to define the word "set". But, given a collection, it would be really nice to have a definition of a subset of that collection. < 1352686521 750496 :tswett!~tswett@unaffiliated/tswett PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lessee, the thing that comes to mind is, "Subsets of a collection C are those things such that if C can be partitioned into two subsets D and E, then each subset of C corresponds to a pair (a subset of D, a subset of E)". < 1352686529 671989 :tswett!~tswett@unaffiliated/tswett PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, that's pretty much useless. < 1352686549 276813 :tswett!~tswett@unaffiliated/tswett PRIVMSG #esoteric :It doesn't say that the collection {x, y} has more than two subsets. < 1352690156 802957 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net QUIT :Quit: Arc_Koen < 1352690751 59045 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :lambdabot: @ < 1352690751 368517 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe you meant: . ? @ activity activity-full admin all-dicts arr ask b52s babel bf bid botsnack brain bug check choice-add choose clear-messages compose devils dice dict dict-help djinn djinn-add < 1352690751 503942 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :djinn-clr djinn-del djinn-env djinn-names djinn-ver do docs dummy easton echo elements elite eval fact fact-cons fact-delete fact-set fact-snoc fact-update faq farber flush foldoc forget fortune < 1352690751 621993 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :fptools free freshname ft gazetteer get-shapr ghc girl19 google googleit gsite gwiki hackage help hitchcock hoogle hoogle+ id ignore index instances instances-importing irc-connect jargon join karma < 1352690751 675766 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :karma+ karma- karma-all keal kind learn leave let list listall listchans listmodules listservers localtime localtime-reply lojban map messages messages? more msg nazi-off nazi-on nixon oeis offline < 1352690751 722468 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :oldwiki palomer part paste ping pl pl-resume pointful pointless pointy poll-add poll-close poll-list poll-remove poll-result poll-show pretty print-notices protontorpedo purge-notices quit quote rc < 1352690753 269830 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :read reconnect remember repoint run shootout show slap smack source spell spell-all src tell thank you thanks thx ticker time todo todo-add todo-delete topic-cons topic-init topic-null topic-snoc < 1352690755 191307 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :topic-tail topic-tell type undefine undo unlambda unmtl unpf unpl unpointless uptime url v vera version vote web1913 what where where+ wiki wn world02 yarr yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw yow < 1352690768 163434 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I'll be able to focus while I eat? < 1352690978 766994 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought of a idea, to make a type system which instead of the logic is based on being fixed, you can define your own rules for them. < 1352690993 270293 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know how it would work, though (I don't even know if it works at all). < 1352691890 575473 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Another idea is some type system based on regular expressions, with a few things added, and including replacements; the units here are constructors and containers though. < 1352692342 184708 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could then add various kind of anchors and other operators, have containers attached to constructors be ordered or disordered, have a forbidding operator, laziness operator, allow types to share constructors, have one-way, have one-use, implicit type casting automatically works, etc < 1352692625 766732 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Another strange thing perhaps is, a constructor can be defined to be idempotent or to commute with another constructor, and you could have two types with the same constructor where it commutes in one type but in the other it doesn't commute, or is idempotent in one but not the other, etc < 1352693098 38073 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :controlling industrial cutting laser over X forwarding < 1352693101 421852 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :LIKE A BOSS < 1352693134 663609 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought you had a consumer cutting laser. < 1352693164 669872 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok fine < 1352693168 634881 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't sound as cool < 1352693182 177934 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i will claim it's an industral laser because of the extreme user-unfriendliness of the control system < 1352693340 647739 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :As well as defining addition of types at the type level, with this system you would also be able to define addition of values at the type level too. < 1352694520 333160 :epicmonkey!~epicmonke@188.134.41.172 JOIN :#esoteric > 1352694978 6656 JOIN :#esoteric > 1352694982 140239 JOIN :#esoteric > 1352694982 656116 JOIN :#esoteric > 1352695018 94723 JOIN :#esoteric > 1352695022 217559 JOIN :#esoteric > 1352695022 733376 JOIN :#esoteric > 1352695058 144399 JOIN :#esoteric > 1352695062 271096 JOIN :#esoteric > 1352695062 787742 JOIN :#esoteric > 1352695098 197424 JOIN :#esoteric > 1352695102 321662 JOIN :#esoteric > 1352695102 837222 JOIN :#esoteric > 1352695138 249421 JOIN :#esoteric > 1352695142 376345 JOIN :#esoteric > 1352695142 892133 JOIN :#esoteric > 1352695178 300625 JOIN :#esoteric > 1352695182 425752 JOIN :#esoteric > 1352695182 942393 JOIN :#esoteric > 1352695218 353154 JOIN :#esoteric > 1352695222 479049 JOIN :#esoteric > 1352695222 994856 JOIN :#esoteric > 1352695258 405378 JOIN :#esoteric > 1352695262 530802 JOIN :#esoteric > 1352695263 45432 JOIN :#esoteric > 1352695298 458786 JOIN :#esoteric > 1352695302 586166 JOIN :#esoteric > 1352695303 102105 JOIN :#esoteric > 1352695338 508346 JOIN :#esoteric > 1352695342 635326 JOIN :#esoteric > 1352695343 150550 JOIN :#esoteric > 1352695378 560585 JOIN :#esoteric > 1352695382 687068 JOIN :#esoteric > 1352695383 202511 JOIN :#esoteric > 1352695418 611313 JOIN :#esoteric > 1352695422 737805 JOIN :#esoteric > 1352695423 253326 JOIN :#esoteric > 1352695448 659546 JOIN :#esoteric < 1352695449 323090 :glogbot!codu@codu.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1352695449 989540 :glogbackup!~glogbacku@64.31.59.246 PART :#esoteric < 1352695451 251557 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org JOIN :#esoteric > 1352695452 789307 JOIN :#esoteric > 1352695453 297191 JOIN :#esoteric < 1352695454 437389 :EgoBot!codu@codu.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1352695525 580083 :Gregor!codu@codu.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1352696263 170455 :epicmonkey!~epicmonke@188.134.41.172 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1352696670 390095 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :The skill generator command is SKI and I have also added the lookup table command is LUT < 1352696744 716795 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could implement a command for scaling the total of a list of numbers, which together with LUT could be used for implementing Goldilock's method. < 1352697383 49976 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay zzo38 < 1352697402 826811 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :how hard would it be to make it 4e < 1352697719 250662 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know. This SKI command is a command which is a part of FurryScript, and the options it supports should be sufficient for D&D3.5e and for Icosahedral RPG; maybe it is sufficient for 4e as well, and if not then you can tell me what options to add. < 1352697752 426230 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :comex: "I order ais523 to place a large notice on eir home page stating that eir cashing condition was inaccurate." <3 < 1352697812 344041 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :@context elliott < 1352697812 751356 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unknown command, try @list < 1352697855 15207 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Options at this point are: C=cost I=increase-cost M=max-value c=count d=dice r=removal-chance v=initial-value. In addition, you specify the number of skill points in total, and the skill names are allowed to contain templates. < 1352697877 55865 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: agora < 1352697901 318736 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf, http://agoranomic.org/ < 1352697908 847664 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Note: Page may be out of date) < 1352697985 683801 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :The "C" option is used to implement cross-class skills in D&D3.5e; Icosahedral doesn't use class/cross-class skills. The "d" option makes something resembling the skill advancement in ADOM. The "c" option makes it more likely to select that skill, the "r" option makes it less likely the more it is selected, the "v" gives you skill ranks for free. < 1352698093 705584 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I forget how 4e skills work so if you know, then you might know if these options are sufficient for that purpose or not. Do you know? < 1352698610 254603 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I do have some idea of additional options to add: mutually exclusive skills, skills spendable in other skills, multiple classes of skills, skills that lock or unlock other skills, priorities, skill levels, etc < 1352699115 599438 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: What do you think of this? Is it sufficient for what you are doing? If not, what would it need to make it sufficient for such purposes? < 1352699362 936370 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :in general 4e is simpler than 3.5e < 1352699383 475538 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :so if it uses templates, it should be possible just to modify the template to get it working for 4e < 1352699422 551213 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes I know. However it still does not answer my question completely. These "templates" are the same templates as the rest of FurryScript and may or may not be what you need. < 1352699470 275176 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :What I mean is you can write a skill list with options specified, and the skill names can contain templates. < 1352699492 237782 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(These templates are separate from the options, and you can use both.) < 1352699567 736265 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I seem to remember that 4e still has class/cross-class skills but not skill ranks (Icosahedral RPG is the opposite; it has skill ranks but not class/cross-class skills). < 1352699674 260141 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :But maybe I misremember it, or maybe I missed something. < 1352699725 821299 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Note that FurryScript has no skill list built-in; you still have to write the skill list yourself. < 1352699777 574132 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do these answer any of your questions at all, or does it confuse you? < 1352700125 523581 :nooga!~nooga@ip-46-250-173-30.ip.maverick.com.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1352700376 973227 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :everything about furryscript confusses me < 1352700803 170395 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did you read the documentation (and source-codes if necessary)? < 1352703800 552143 :ztirf!~ztirf@HSI-KBW-085-216-049-158.hsi.kabelbw.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1352703869 219925 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT : < 1352704213 115908 :epicmonkey!~epicmonke@188.134.41.172 JOIN :#esoteric < 1352705105 953981 :Nisstyre-laptop!~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1352705783 31765 :epicmonkey!~epicmonke@188.134.41.172 QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1352705808 61298 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-254-65.ptld.qwest.net QUIT :Quit: good place to halt < 1352706477 576633 :augur!~augur@208.58.5.87 JOIN :#esoteric < 1352706726 939945 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: i read it and read examples and still am confused < 1352706802 467647 :Frooxius!~Frooxius@cust-101.ktknet.cz QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1352706822 7495 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: Explain what part you misunderstood? < 1352706869 150325 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: how the interpreter actually works. how to write my own scripts. < 1352706880 396242 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :i gather it's some kind of stack machine < 1352706881 255906 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :but < 1352706905 387264 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't quite understand how programs are organized and how execution order is determined and such < 1352706948 53073 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is executed from beginning to end; blocks [] are subroutine blocks which do not execute until called < 1352706999 2794 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Any strings (not any other types) on the stack when the program ends is done implicitly run GEN on them and then is send each one to output. This is the only way to make the program to output anything (except for debugging commands). < 1352708459 32575 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1352709071 881811 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, monqy stuff < 1352709165 816637 :monqy!~help@pool-98-108-214-230.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi Sgeo < 1352709313 718318 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi monqy < 1352709316 953671 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :"im the new Sgeo" < 1352709373 807827 :monqy!~help@pool-98-108-214-230.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi Sgeo < 1352709455 723628 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: Can I have a fortune? < 1352709490 459875 :monqy!~help@pool-98-108-214-230.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :why do i have fortune installed < 1352709520 513970 :monqy!~help@pool-98-108-214-230.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :eugh whatever < 1352709525 416134 :monqy!~help@pool-98-108-214-230.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :is `fortune a thing < 1352709526 766165 :monqy!~help@pool-98-108-214-230.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :`fortune < 1352709539 214745 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​.-. \ ||`7.V\/| \ / .--.| '-, \ _/ / _ <__ \ (_>( -.- \ /==\ \ '`. -(_/ //|==.|\ \ `> --', |--.|=\ \ _\V|/|/(/||==-|.=\ \ ->. _.-'-'|.==|.-'| \ _7__| u _u|==.|_.-| < 1352709544 884883 :monqy!~help@pool-98-108-214-230.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1352709598 561073 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: why wouldn't you have fortune installed. except for all the standard fortune sets being bad < 1352709613 167987 :monqy!~help@pool-98-108-214-230.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :exactly < 1352709886 433093 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run fortune -o # offend me, machine! < 1352709890 841801 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Little Mary on the ice, \ Went out to have a frisk, \ Now wasn't little Mary nice, \ Her pretty *? < 1352709903 263095 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ahahahahahahahahahahah < 1352709906 17358 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: update < 1352709909 932298 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have beaten sgeo < 1352709916 577907 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: also you i think < 1352709919 456827 :monqy!~help@pool-98-108-214-230.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1352709935 556431 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: hs < 1352709937 976167 :monqy!~help@pool-98-108-214-230.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1352709955 580109 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :homestuck < 1352709975 466891 :monqy!~help@pool-98-108-214-230.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1352709979 55181 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has updated < 1352709982 179246 :monqy!~help@pool-98-108-214-230.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1352709984 640888 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :sgeo normally informs people of this < 1352709990 728583 :monqy!~help@pool-98-108-214-230.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :see the joke is < 1352709995 920060 :monqy!~help@pool-98-108-214-230.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :sgeo beat you < 1352709999 508358 :monqy!~help@pool-98-108-214-230.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :im sorry coppro < 1352710004 93960 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :bah < 1352710008 692110 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1352710011 672180 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am ashamed < 1352710015 49222 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :but not really < 1352710017 934005 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :because I was doing other things < 1352710043 81447 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was taken by surprise by the second page though < 1352710088 391608 :epicmonkey!~epicmonke@host-224-60.dataart.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1352710089 943290 :monqy!~help@pool-98-108-214-230.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: were you too ? < 1352710146 865645 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: is the joke that i haven't read homestuck in aeons < 1352710178 353790 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am not sure whether to expect a psyche < 1352710196 375874 :monqy!~help@pool-98-108-214-230.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: that's like at least half the joke yeah < 1352710244 622070 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also love the thememing of the planets < 1352710261 952225 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :all dead, all noble < 1352710285 169588 :monqy!~help@pool-98-108-214-230.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: what did you think ? < 1352710294 249273 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :though I think argon feels left out :( < 1352710308 435821 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The second page was surprising < 1352710339 856590 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah but what comes after? < 1352710342 321510 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it for reals? < 1352710367 270725 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :the music at LoTaK is fantastic < 1352710509 547660 :monqy!~help@pool-98-108-214-230.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: you should see this, i hear it's surprising and fantastic < 1352710637 972408 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if skaia itself counts as argon or something < 1352710881 516814 :nooodl!~nooodl@91.177.46.251 JOIN :#esoteric < 1352711089 894228 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(since it's in the middle) < 1352711192 866411 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think some people are hoping it isn't for real, but I'm kind of hoping it is < 1352711202 204910 :monqy!~help@pool-98-108-214-230.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi nooodl < 1352711208 752274 :monqy!~help@pool-98-108-214-230.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooooooooooooooodl, sorry < 1352711447 556314 :ztirf!~ztirf@HSI-KBW-085-216-049-158.hsi.kabelbw.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1352711604 956203 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 JOIN :#esoteric < 1352711653 920159 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I couldn’t find the full BeagleBone pin information in a machine readable format anywhere, so i did it myself: https://github.com/ion1/beagle_bone_pins < 1352712070 923953 :carado!~user4539@2a01:e35:8b61:e430:6ef0:49ff:fe73:1fd0 JOIN :#esoteric < 1352712596 870805 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1352712628 80881 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin JOIN :#esoteric < 1352713300 870041 :carado!~user4539@2a01:e35:8b61:e430:6ef0:49ff:fe73:1fd0 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1352714201 924781 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1352715319 564372 :ztirf!~ztirf@HSI-KBW-085-216-049-158.hsi.kabelbw.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1352715516 752911 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1352715546 941687 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you know if GNU C allows a variable declaration to be an unnamed union? < 1352715628 995841 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :And, if you have a question about FurryScript, please write it in details in the http://esolangs.org/wiki/User_talk:Zzo38/FurryScript < 1352716013 582163 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :GNU C does allow unnamed unions as an extension in pre-C11 modes, yes, if I recall correctly. < 1352716041 381775 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Er, that is, allows unnamed union members. < 1352716054 250639 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think anything will allow a tagless union variable declaration. < 1352716091 499175 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :("Unnamed" is perhaps a bit vague.) < 1352716156 494443 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you mean the kinds of unnamed unions that are used as struct/union members, I don't think it allows that as a variable declaration. < 1352716237 72705 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :In other words, struct s { union { int x; double y; }; }; is fine, as is union { int x; double y; } u; but not plain union { int x; double y; }; outside of a struct or an union declaration. < 1352716348 80125 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are they going to change it so that it is allowed? < 1352716400 789984 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does anyone else want such feature? < 1352716719 937232 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sounds slightly unlikely. I suppose the desired semantics would be the same as union { int x; double y; } u; except allowing plain x and y as opposed to u.x and u.y in the scope where the declaration is visible? < 1352716750 36648 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, so x and y have the same address, too. < 1352717118 77085 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is possible that "they" think it would be potentially too surprising; as opposed to the variant where there is at least some explicit indication that the two variables are in an union. < 1352717278 943835 :nooodl!~nooodl@91.177.46.251 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1352717496 845936 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :It wouldn't seem too surprising to me, at least. < 1352717588 941340 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could use macros in some cases, but such things lacks the scope, and macros cannot define other macros. < 1352717789 995750 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually I think declaring unnamed structures as variables should also be allowed in order to force them to be grouped together if the address is being used in such a way. < 1352717842 127614 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Personally I'm willing to just write the "foo." prefix in such a case. < 1352717877 530448 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :==fizzie < 1352717972 539184 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes that is one way, although it may fail with some uses of macros, and anyways it seem to me that it ought to be allowed, by how the others worked. < 1352718025 384497 :impomatic!~digital_w@94.66.112.87.dyn.plus.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1352718348 658701 :nooga!~nooga@ip-46-250-173-30.ip.maverick.com.pl QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1352718369 815581 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose it depends on whether you see it as a feature of a struct/union declaration ("leaving out the name allows the members to bubble up to the enclosing scope") or as a feature of a struct/union *member* declaration ("leaving out the name pulls up the members to this scope"); the way it's specified is closer to the latter. < 1352718448 272217 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Incidentally, here's two C features I've never seen used "in the wild"; any spottings of these elsewhere? struct bf { int bf1 : 1; int : 0; int bf2 : 1; }; and int f(int n, int ary[*]); int f(int n, int ary[n]) { ... } < 1352718487 921031 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have not seen it. < 1352718571 618061 :monqy!~help@pool-98-108-214-230.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net QUIT :Quit: hello < 1352718610 695646 :nooga!~nooga@ip-46-250-173-30.ip.maverick.com.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1352718619 91064 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Regarding the latter, it's funny that int f(int a, int not_a, int ary[a]); int f(int a, int nota, int ary[not_a]) { ... } is perfectly legal -- in a function declaration that's not a definition any non-constant sizes are taken as if "[*]" were written there instead. < 1352718633 556070 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/nota/not_a/ < 1352718904 970799 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Would my ^+| and ^-&~ operators be useful ever for hardware description? < 1352719137 860815 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean the ^+| acts like ^ or | or + but is undefined if the operands share any bits set; the ^-&~ is undefined if any bits set in right operand are clear in the left operand. < 1352719222 117712 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are... are those the symbols for the operators? < 1352719273 186600 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :They are symbols I made up because I don't know of the others. Probably ^-&~ is no good, maybe -&~^ is better? < 1352719313 341252 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least in C; in other programming languages it might be OK. < 1352719368 549407 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Do you use Control.Lens? < 1352719465 410142 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: No, not at this time. Maybe later, though, if I find to use it. < 1352719513 853222 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Actually I think I am wrong about ^-&~ being no good, now that I think of it.) < 1352719575 168814 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Do you like Bazaar? < 1352719684 814173 :impomatic!~digital_w@94.66.112.87.dyn.plus.net QUIT :Quit: http://BASICcomic.com < 1352719955 998269 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I'm pretty sure the bitfields-in-struct thing is mentioned in K&R, but that's not exactly in the wild. Incidentally, "why aren't these used very often?" was my first thought when I read about them < 1352719998 756852 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :It seems to me like a cleaner approach than using and/or to mask out bits in an int < 1352720031 670435 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly: I've seen bitfields; what I haven't seen is the "int : 0;" part. < 1352720060 437185 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aha < 1352720091 863894 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It "indicates that no further bit-field is to be packed into the unit in which the previous bit-field, if any, was placed." < 1352720169 858539 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :13:35 ,cc size_t size1 = sizeof (struct { int bf1 : 1; int bf2 : 1; }), size2 = sizeof (struct { int bf1 : 1; int : 0; int bf2 : 1; }); < 1352720172 817307 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :13:36 fizzie: < 1352720866 909800 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's wacky < 1352720872 854807 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does [*] do? < 1352721060 272621 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Did you ever look at Control.Lens? "pretty nifty, if i do say so myself" < 1352721233 396859 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Especially Traversals and all that. < 1352721363 862642 :carado!~user4539@2a01:e35:8b61:e430:6ef0:49ff:fe73:1fd0 JOIN :#esoteric < 1352721387 418984 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1352721442 79046 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: "If the size is * instead of being an expression, the array type is a variable length array of unspecified size, which can only be used in declarations or type names with function prototype scope [FOOTNOTE: Thus, * can only be used in function declarations that are not definitions (see 6.7.6.3).]; such arrays are nonetheless complete types." < 1352722238 344463 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 JOIN :#esoteric < 1352722284 379401 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://youtu.be/tqUvKO8ktJk < 1352722358 196418 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Such elegance. < 1352722990 44430 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :this differs from a[] because it's a VLA rather than a plain array? < 1352723048 787819 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :or not, because array arguments are always actually pointer arguments? < 1352723078 409943 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It differs because it's a VLA, yes. < 1352723234 495221 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Possibly it might not matter in the case I pasted, where the "array of type" is adjusted to "pointer of type", but it matters with a more complicated declarator. < 1352723495 197673 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :E.g. you can write int f(int n, int a[n][n]) or equivalently int f(int n, int (*a)[n]) and a suitable prototype for f would be also int f(int n, int (*a)[*]); but having int f(int n, int (*a)[]) { ... } wouldn't work. < 1352723645 865167 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :For one thing, as mentioned a[*] is a complete type while a[] is not. < 1352723684 471708 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :14:34 ,cc int f(int n, int a[][]); < 1352723684 617276 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :14:34 fizzie: error: array type has incomplete element type < 1352723684 617452 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :14:34 ,cc int f(int n, int a[*][*]); < 1352723684 617559 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :14:34 fizzie: Success (no output). < 1352723811 526714 :ztirf!~ztirf@HSI-KBW-085-216-049-158.hsi.kabelbw.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1352723854 492595 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :FWIW, I haven't seen the int f(int n[static 42]) { ... } form in the wild either. < 1352723956 244050 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :("If the keyword static also appears within the [ and ] of the array type derivation, then for each call to the function, the value of the corresponding actual argument shall provide access to the first element of an array with at least as many elements as specified by the size expression", but it's not like anyone would *check*. < 1352724200 651881 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh? < 1352724384 262628 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :int f(int n[static 10]) { ... }; ... int a[8]; f(a); is undefined behaviour, unlike int f(int n[10]) { ... }; ... int a[8]; f(a); which is only UB if f actually tries to access anything past the end of a. < 1352724505 496798 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure if anything anywhere will in fact do anything different there; but theoretically speaking the compiler could (in the first case) e.g. speculatively load 10 ints from where the argument points at, and you couldn't blame it for blowing up. < 1352724513 919626 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1352725131 166455 :Lopt!~Lopt@27.115.97.50 JOIN :#esoteric < 1352725237 963882 :Lopt!~Lopt@27.115.97.50 PART #esoteric :"Verlassend" < 1352725267 598927 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1352725370 594071 :ztirf!~ztirf@HSI-KBW-085-216-049-158.hsi.kabelbw.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1352725464 732908 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 JOIN :#esoteric < 1352725637 523729 :ztirf!~ztirf@HSI-KBW-085-216-049-158.hsi.kabelbw.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1352728432 228740 :augur!~augur@208.58.5.87 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1352728453 853703 :augur!~augur@208.58.5.87 JOIN :#esoteric < 1352728754 685386 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1352729256 391225 :epicmonkey!~epicmonke@host-224-60.dataart.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1352729953 938938 :epicmonkey!~epicmonke@host-224-58.dataart.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1352731401 655246 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin QUIT :Quit: Computer has gone to sleep. < 1352731732 331535 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet JOIN :#esoteric < 1352732436 804746 :claplost!~Paco@148.Red-83-33-60.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1352732573 225823 :claplost!~Paco@148.Red-83-33-60.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-D < 1352732586 845678 :claplost!~Paco@148.Red-83-33-60.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net PART :#esoteric < 1352732788 896547 :epicmonkey!~epicmonke@host-224-58.dataart.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1352732790 298643 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin JOIN :#esoteric < 1352732804 991849 :atriq!~nathan@host-84-13-80-128.opaltelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1352732882 647037 :atriq!~nathan@host-84-13-80-128.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I always keep a roll of sticky tape in the pocket of my shorts < 1352732952 203928 :atriq!~nathan@host-84-13-80-128.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :#true-facts < 1352733587 263899 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 JOIN :#esoteric < 1352733633 503954 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :atriq: To prompt "is that your roll of sticky tape or are you just happy to see me" questions, I suppose? < 1352733680 103836 :atriq!~nathan@host-84-13-80-128.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because I only wear my shorts when cosplaying, and I only cosplay with Homestucks and some of these homestucks have really shoddy horns that need constant repairing < 1352733716 372163 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Piles of horns. < 1352733825 953112 :Frooxius!~Frooxius@cust-101.ktknet.cz JOIN :#esoteric < 1352734029 98348 :atriq!~nathan@host-84-13-80-128.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I now cannot stand the sound of clown horns < 1352734091 340977 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric < 1352734777 452543 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin QUIT :Quit: Computer has gone to sleep. < 1352734822 514905 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin JOIN :#esoteric < 1352735046 432054 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1352735306 892629 :nooodl!~nooodl@91.177.46.251 JOIN :#esoteric < 1352736241 43547 :augur!~augur@208.58.5.87 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1352738034 222024 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1352738230 798096 :augur!~augur@129-2-129-35.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1352738235 351042 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1352738784 263914 :atriq!~nathan@host-84-13-80-128.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why am I listening to Prodigy < 1352738787 105315 :atriq!~nathan@host-84-13-80-128.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who even are Prodigy < 1352738815 861162 :carado!~user4539@2a01:e35:8b61:e430:6ef0:49ff:fe73:1fd0 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1352738927 66931 :atriq!~nathan@host-84-13-80-128.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, did you do the update thingy < 1352738946 146 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :atriq, oops, sorry I left you out < 1352738965 692826 :atriq!~nathan@host-84-13-80-128.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was offline most likely < 1352738975 180210 :atriq!~nathan@host-84-13-80-128.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I saw it at about 11 this morning (GMT) < 1352739053 487639 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :by the way < 1352739063 949807 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I love the phrase "what even is this?" and friends < 1352739070 847337 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :the grammatical structure is hilarious < 1352739098 651320 :atriq!~nathan@host-84-13-80-128.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't < 1352739105 863319 :atriq!~nathan@host-84-13-80-128.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am literally unable < 1352739260 174645 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal JOIN :#esoteric < 1352739319 517034 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :atriq: to do what? < 1352739351 650564 :atriq!~nathan@host-84-13-80-128.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Demonstrate ungrammatical sentences, evidently < 1352739360 68665 :atriq!~nathan@host-84-13-80-128.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Those are quite common on Tumblr < 1352739370 456729 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you did it quite well < 1352739375 783363 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :also what even is tumblr < 1352739380 117109 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't understand it < 1352739386 109010 :atriq!~nathan@host-84-13-80-128.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's an art-themed microblogging website < 1352739454 616 :atriq!~nathan@host-84-13-80-128.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's like rich-text twitter with images, videos, sound, and no character limit < 1352739460 390568 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 JOIN :#esoteric < 1352739477 150372 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know what it is, in theory < 1352739520 662923 :atriq!~nathan@host-84-13-80-128.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :In that case, your question is like asking "What even is reddit?" or "What even is 4chan?" < 1352739523 535959 :atriq!~nathan@host-84-13-80-128.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a community < 1352739529 766320 :atriq!~nathan@host-84-13-80-128.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which can be weird < 1352739534 487579 :atriq!~nathan@host-84-13-80-128.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And can be wonderful < 1352739541 83475 :atriq!~nathan@host-84-13-80-128.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And can be wrong. < 1352739547 795043 :atriq!~nathan@host-84-13-80-128.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :So very very wrong. < 1352739561 591158 :atriq!~nathan@host-84-13-80-128.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But then you see someone transmorphing a cat and it's all cool < 1352739794 216931 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1352740668 421837 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: "TI-84 Plus C Silver Edition", a TI-84+ with a 320x240x16bpp color screen: http://www.cemetech.net/news.php?id=539 (not much non-rumoury details). < 1352741195 725484 :nooga!~nooga@ip-46-250-173-30.ip.maverick.com.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1352741503 617836 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, heh < 1352741608 603314 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :atriq: so act 6 act 4 eh < 1352741729 745806 :Nisstyre-laptop!~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre JOIN :#esoteric < 1352741765 713923 :atriq!~nathan@host-84-13-80-128.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah < 1352741805 510425 :atriq!~nathan@host-84-13-80-128.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Alpha kids' Sburb is survival horror < 1352741813 56171 :atriq!~nathan@host-84-13-80-128.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it's the twelth of April < 1352741883 530744 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like the planets < 1352741888 720276 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :all dead < 1352741900 526541 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm getting a PS3 controller working on windows appears non-trivial. It works out of the box on Linux. Heck it even works out of the box on my android phone in USB mode, and it is easy to get it to work in bluetooth mode < 1352742824 925687 :atriq!~nathan@host-84-13-80-128.opaltelecom.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1352743336 358069 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1352743342 929055 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I use that thing. < 1352743354 663803 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: The MotioninJoy driver. < 1352743365 261679 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: It's an ad-riddled piece of ugly mess, but it works fine. < 1352743454 741098 :Nisstyre-laptop!~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1352743657 525398 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1352744226 795525 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I'm looking at an alternative that seems a lot more basic < 1352744231 291286 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, and no ads < 1352744241 909897 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :however there is a bit of mess with driver signing < 1352744273 295330 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, will tell you if it works in a bit < 1352744298 888397 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure I can be bothered to switch since it works just fine; though admittedly I feel a bit queasy, having it on my system. < 1352744314 320434 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It does a rather passable xbox360 emulation for the PS3 controller, which is nice. < 1352744342 258380 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :the one I'm testing has a japanese only page, though there is an English readme < 1352744365 904370 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bastion IIRC only worked for a x360 pad; and Sonic Generations has this random malfunction when it comes to any pads that aren't used via XInput aka. anything not a x360. < 1352744375 384298 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :But the MotioninJoy emulation has so far been fine. < 1352744391 328176 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :it looks like malware to me, that is the issue < 1352744412 166118 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway I played an snes emulator on my android phone with this thing now, in bluetooth mode even. Works fine. < 1352744447 570292 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It works over bluetooth with the N900 just fine, too; I don't recall if I needed to install anything. < 1352744452 198457 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :also why does this use miniusb rather than microusb < 1352744475 296820 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have absolutely no idea; my cable is from an old digital camera that also used miniusb. < 1352744488 884099 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had a mini-usb cable from my bank login thingy < 1352744502 124736 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It has one of those large bulky things they sometimes put to cables that presumably do something to rf interference or something. < 1352744509 679762 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1352744512 54662 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :You know, the kind of cylindrical things. < 1352744515 101912 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1352744517 927922 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :ferrite cores? < 1352744527 267261 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Something like that, right. < 1352744534 765701 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's in the mini-usb end, it looks real stupid hanging there. < 1352744547 235684 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1352744555 636374 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :my camera have that too < 1352744570 475763 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it is optional, only required for the remote control mode according to the manual < 1352744585 184808 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :my camera uses a custom connector on that end of the cable though < 1352744600 131070 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :The current camera I have has a custom connector too. < 1352744602 130968 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :also windows is being slow after boot as usual < 1352744640 966069 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :The miniusb was from some 1600x1200 pocket-camera bought a decade ago. < 1352744657 291998 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1352744750 538448 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Back in... uh, school grades 7-9, I was helping with the PageMakering of the school newspaper; they had a quite early digital camera there. < 1352744762 645181 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I forget the resolution, but it recorder on 3.5" floppies of all things. < 1352744831 198945 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_Mavica -- I'm pretty sure it was that Mavica MVC-FD5 shown there, or a close relative. < 1352744855 321044 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: hum, my gcc rejects "void f(int a[*]);" < 1352744888 977739 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: With -std=c99? < 1352744892 981927 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1352744898 228697 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh nm < 1352744901 750646 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm being dumb < 1352744920 634120 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, it works < 1352744981 603380 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it really doesn't have a difference for that "top-level array" case, since the "'array of T' is adjusted to 'pointer to T'" rule takes effect no matter whether it was a VLA or not. < 1352745097 566687 :Nisstyre-laptop!~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre JOIN :#esoteric < 1352745118 868643 :carado!~user4539@2a01:e35:8b61:e430:6ef0:49ff:fe73:1fd0 JOIN :#esoteric < 1352745166 524599 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :hrrm < 1352745183 601783 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently the MVC-FD5 had an impressive 640x480 resolution too. < 1352745243 564043 :nooga!~nooga@public-gprs50986.centertel.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1352745245 373414 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-254-65.ptld.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1352745334 11477 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, speaking of ferrite cores, I have a power cable with one of those on < 1352745340 597178 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is for an external HDD enclosure < 1352745357 287055 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: but it matters for a[3][*] ? < 1352745374 75218 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Right; you couldn't have a type a[3][], after all. < 1352745393 900906 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Array element type can't be incomplete.) < 1352745415 590096 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: The power cable from the transformer to the laptop has one at the transformer end. < 1352745431 995440 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :mm, because it has to know how big it is < 1352745435 558217 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, this laptop; not some generic "the laptop". < 1352745475 751019 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I think the hdd one has the core on the HDD end < 1352745498 330327 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if that matters. (Am no electroman.) < 1352745531 97090 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :so a float[4][5] is 20 contiguous floats... but a float[4][*] is four pointers to separate VLAs? < 1352745536 465592 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, hm I think windows is ignoring the boot flags I set... < 1352745543 355452 :nooga_!~nooga@public-gprs386175.centertel.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1352745547 142089 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact bcdedit appears screwy on this computer < 1352745554 562041 :nooga!~nooga@public-gprs50986.centertel.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1352745559 710761 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have to explicitly give it the path to the bcd file for it to find it < 1352745578 448073 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :very strange < 1352745591 761274 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: float[4][*] is a variably modified type, but it's still 4*(something) contiguous floats, and the actual function definition needs to have an actual expression there to specify (something). < 1352745615 218484 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah i see < 1352745626 630081 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :can that depend on previous parameters? < 1352745629 954460 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1352745635 193387 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :int f(int n, float a[4][n]) < 1352745638 329410 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow dependent types < 1352745697 728907 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are more restrictions for variably modified types than for regular types; can't have them at file scope and so on. < 1352745756 868614 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :They also make it possible for sizeof expressions to have side effects, something that wasn't possible earlier. < 1352745769 949566 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yikes < 1352745773 853072 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :which effects are those? < 1352745779 68260 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :which language? < 1352745795 679976 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :C. Well, C99 and later. < 1352745796 89118 :Deewiant!~deewiant@109.75.188.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sizeof(int[printf("foo\n")]) and/or the like < 1352745807 429094 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :sizeof (int[i++]) too. < 1352745815 499208 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1352745828 252698 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, sure < 1352745842 8284 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but is it possible for the effects to be not define as part of the sizeof expression < 1352745870 433980 :atriq!~nathan@84.13.80.128 JOIN :#esoteric < 1352745877 320745 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably not; once you do int f[foo("bar")]; I don't think "sizeof f" is allowed to re-evaluate foo("bar"). < 1352745886 915645 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's also a rule that the side effects can happen, but don't need to happen, if their result is not needed for computing the result of the sizeof. < 1352745906 595463 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently you can also do void f(double a[restrict][5]) < 1352745922 799361 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :The qualifiers-in-[] is kind of funny-looking, yes. < 1352745922 944928 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :which means that a is passed by restricted pointer, I guess < 1352745995 761838 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :But anyway sizeof (int (*)[i++]) is allowed but not required to increment i, since even though it's a variably modified type, the size of the array is not relevant for computing the size of the pointer. < 1352746002 574919 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :mm < 1352746060 884469 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm I think windows is getting either lagged by interrupts or IO for the period 2 to 3 minutes after boot. I had this issue for some time < 1352746073 26821 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :but never managed to pull up process explorer before during that period < 1352746090 310140 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i feel like int a[static 5] was probably added for some super specific reason < 1352746095 149338 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :20:48 ,cc int i = 1, j = 1; size_t s = sizeof (int[i++]), t = sizeof (int (*)[j++]); < 1352746098 201774 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :20:48 fizzie: < 1352746279 425440 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the alternative syntax of "double (* restrict a)[5]" also looks pretty weird < 1352746299 336802 :nooga_!~nooga@public-gprs386175.centertel.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1352746438 231383 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :In C99, the use of the static keyword in: [... double a[static 10], double b[static 10] ...] guarantees that both the pointers a and b provide access to the first element of an array containing at least ten elements. The static keyword also guarantees that the pointer is not NULL and points to an object of the appropriate effective type. It does not, however, guarantee that a and b point to ... < 1352746444 784111 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :... unique, non-overlapping objects. The restrict keyword is used for that purpose as in: [... double a[static restrict 10] ...] -- This is information that an optimizer can use, for example, to unroll the loop and reorder the loads and stores of the elements referenced through a and b." < 1352746449 749309 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is all that the rationale says about it. < 1352746468 779393 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Loading elements "in advance" is also what I sort of thought of. < 1352746518 204427 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though I suppose regular static analysis should also show that the code is going to load those ten elements in any case, in which case it'd be also legal. < 1352746578 974175 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, the example is void fadd(double a[static restrict 10], const double b[static restrict 10]) { int i; for (i = 0; i < 10; i++) { if (a[i] < 0.0) return; a[i] += b[i]; } return; } < 1352746579 564792 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, wait, what does the static keyword do in that position? < 1352746617 182852 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess in that case without static you couldn't preload all the elements, just in case a didn't have that many elements but there was a -1.0 before it ended. < 1352746630 61416 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: "If the keyword static also appears within the [ and ] of the array type derivation, then for each call to the function, the value of the corresponding actual argument shall provide access to the first element of an array with at least as many elements as specified by the size expression." < 1352746646 38647 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION tries to parse that
< 1352746701 678426 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, so it means you say it must be at least that size? < 1352746704 530985 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1352746705 90331 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1352746708 887523 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Without static it would be legal to do double a[5] = {1, 2, 3, 4, -1}; double b[10] = {1, 2, 3, 4}; fadd(a, b); since the function actually only accesses up to a[4] and b[3]. < 1352746725 971336 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :does GCC do anything with this info btw? < 1352746728 999626 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :But then the optimizer couldn't assume there are always at least 10 elements and reorder the accesses. < 1352746732 562346 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no idea. < 1352746742 304897 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps I'll try the example they give in the rationale. :p < 1352746753 739003 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1352746839 826354 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hrm, it seems to generate identical code with or without static. :/ < 1352746873 277619 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i can imagine it being useful e.g. with vector instructions that load a bunch of data at once < 1352746875 961439 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :The loop is fully unrolled, but there's that a[i] < 0 test before each access. < 1352746898 574304 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, this could've been vectorized, probably. < 1352746922 482463 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :dammit, I can't get the driver signing check disabling to work < 1352746931 831900 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well I guess I will have to use that crazy thing < 1352746933 340918 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though you'd also need to guarantee 16-byte alignment somehow for movapd to be legal. < 1352746943 725846 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, to what degree do you actually have to deal with the ads and such? < 1352746999 56678 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Not much. The settings page has some ads at bottom and left, which you'll need to see when twiddling them. < 1352747009 41628 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Changing it from PS3 mode to Xbox360 emulation, for example. < 1352747018 835679 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it's not going to splatter them all over the screen or anything. < 1352747042 581610 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It also installs a permanent tray icon for the settings. < 1352747055 987447 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Possibly that's configurable; I haven't bothered since it ends up in the hidden tray icons.) < 1352747058 488239 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, permanent? < 1352747059 335763 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :ouch < 1352747065 908066 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, anything else? < 1352747069 260735 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-4db422bf.pool.mediaWays.net QUIT :Quit: hagb4rd < 1352747071 553499 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :c99 still doesn't have alignment qualifiers does it? < 1352747078 761035 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's there even without the controller connected; it's that permanent. < 1352747079 324323 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but maybe c11 does? < 1352747087 213533 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :stupid < 1352747113 353676 :Deewiant!~deewiant@109.75.188.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :C11 does < 1352747117 24368 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: C11 has some alignment specifiers, yes. < 1352747135 589503 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :alignment-specifier: _Alignas ( type-name ) | _Alignas ( constant-expression ). < 1352747204 491075 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :So you can have int32_t _Alignas (16) sse_friendly_array[8]; or something, perhaps. < 1352747223 870781 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the famous king Alignas < 1352747243 803521 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or int _Alignas (int) x; for the Deparment of Redundancy Department use case. < 1352747253 431026 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :int _Alignas(char) < 1352747291 99337 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :_Alignas (type) is equivalent to _Alignas (_Alignof (type)). < 1352747363 585813 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :And of course void *aligned_alloc(size_t alignment, size_t size); is there for the dynamic folks. < 1352747706 332573 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Have to say that C11 _Generic(x, int: fooi, double: foof)(x) is slightly prettier than the existing GCC workaround __builtin_choose_expr(__builtin_types_compatible_p(__typeof__(x), int), fooi, foof)(x) -- okay, the whole idea is a bit iffy, but still. < 1352747773 510113 :Deewiant!~deewiant@109.75.188.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :They should just put full-on C++ templates in < 1352747842 342011 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Type-generic math library! < 1352747888 913713 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It even does complexities. < 1352747938 153054 :Nisstyre-laptop!~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1352748222 624383 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, it doesn't appear "motioninjoy" exports all axes to the OS? < 1352748235 675183 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean the sixaxis stuff and what not < 1352748324 959723 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: The tilts should be there, in PS3 mode. < 1352748345 609605 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay it seems it overlaps some axies then < 1352748348 979339 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :The way they improve C are much difference to the ways I think they should be done. < 1352748363 465674 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: left-right tilt as Rz and front-back tilt as Slider by default, apparently. < 1352748364 65627 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, it doesn't track L2 and R2 separately either it appears < 1352748388 723253 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, front-back seems to default to Rx for me < 1352748392 351389 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :which seems weird < 1352748409 487155 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :That should be right-stick x, according to this list. Unless I've customized these options. < 1352748417 914567 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: so is there any reason to use [*] in your prototype, rather than just using the full size expression? < 1352748418 665113 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, yeah it is that as well < 1352748424 125573 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, basically I have overlap < 1352748435 799825 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe the size expression depends on stuff local to the file where the function is defined < 1352748437 777838 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :And right, L2/R2 seem to go by default into z+ z-, I don't know how that works. < 1352748440 139771 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some things I think GNU are going the better job, such as zero-length arrays, long long in C89, and some (but not all) of their other ideas. < 1352748448 922843 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, yeah < 1352748453 527371 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe the custom profile thing could be used to make it more sensible. < 1352748458 823407 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, should be a separate axis for each? < 1352748458 968902 :carado!~user4539@2a01:e35:8b61:e430:6ef0:49ff:fe73:1fd0 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1352748467 308497 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sounds like it'd make more sense, yes. < 1352748486 202162 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :I presume windows supports that, since it handles my flight joystick just fine < 1352748488 616509 :augur!~augur@129-2-129-35.wireless.umd.edu QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1352748496 285640 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that shows up as 11 axes and 30+ buttons < 1352748513 51522 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Yeah, it could just be a deficiency in the driver. < 1352748519 506476 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I haven't ever used the tilts for anything.) < 1352748523 564831 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1352748540 148732 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would like separate axes for the triggers though < 1352748587 674462 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: The custom profile axis-dropdown has a "Dial" that doesn't seem to be used for anything in PS3 mode, you could use that for the other trigger. < 1352748595 275222 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1352748613 572213 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, linux reports the pressure from each of the buttons too in jstest < 1352748621 755714 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :seems to be mapped to digital values here < 1352748634 50118 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Axes: 0: 0 1: 0 2: 0 3: 0 4:-32767 5:-32767 6:-32767 7:-32767 8:-32767 9:-32767 10:-32767 11:-32767 12:-32767 13:-32767 14:-32767 15:-32767 16:-32767 17:-32767 18:-32767 19:-32767 20:-32767 21:-32767 22:-32767 23:-32767 24:-32767 25:-32767 26:-32767 27:-32767 Buttons: 0:off 1:off 2:off 3:off 4:off 5:off 6:off 7:off 8:off 9:off 10:off 11:off 12:off 13:off 14:off 15:off < 1352748634 195878 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric : 16:off 17:off 18:off < 1352748650 678049 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :does everything have an analogue sensor on this thing? < 1352748657 478000 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :apart from start and select < 1352748668 697722 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Yeah, I don't quite know how that work. The custom-profile dropdowns let you select either a button or a pressure-sensitive button, but I don't know how they appear. < 1352748671 365494 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the logo < 1352748676 109581 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1352748681 680013 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think R3 and L3 have pressure-sensitivity either. < 1352748699 364979 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :But that's about it for the exceptions. < 1352748705 986346 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, actually where is the L3/R3? < 1352748714 865968 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Clicking down the left or right stick. < 1352748724 274645 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1352748725 202167 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1352748730 898538 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :they sound digital < 1352748750 34016 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, but yeah this thing exports too few axes < 1352748814 969296 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why don't they just use MIDI? < 1352748819 350467 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :-_- < 1352748867 151972 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: It might be partially so that Windows games don't get all confused. But I agree that the custom mode should let you just have N axes, one for each pressure-sensitive button if you like. < 1352748959 21686 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :also why does the controller only work with the USB3 port under windows...? < 1352748960 868510 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1352748979 880643 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was the only free one so I used that, now I tried to move it but it won't work there < 1352748995 490921 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well < 1352748998 612510 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's some kind of a thing when it comes to changing ports. < 1352749029 52457 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :You may need to jump through an extra hoop, rerun something or whatnot. < 1352749081 93176 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: You could argue that it's better to use foo[*] since that's how it is interpreted, and if you try to use foo[3*legubniate(n,i,read_pin("G1"))+(zorked((struct p){1,2})?4:8)] in the header file for documentationary reasons, it'll just get out of sync and mislead, since nothing checks. But it's a rather weak justification. Well, except maybe if the expression really looks like *that*. < 1352749128 651639 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still, I'd prefer (int n, foo[n][n]) over (int n, foo[*][*]). < 1352749146 486280 :nortti!nortti@dsl-hkibrasgw3-ff25c000-52.dhcp.inet.fi QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1352749153 171699 :nortti!nortti@dsl-hkibrasgw3-ff25c000-52.dhcp.inet.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1352749198 746060 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1352749207 219937 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :People who prefer [*] will probably also advocate not putting parameter names in prototypes. < 1352749212 620187 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think the "using a static function to compute the size" case is compelling, though < 1352749230 443403 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Since int f(int, int, int, int, int, int) is clearly superior.) < 1352749237 547422 :nooga!~nooga@ip-46-250-173-30.ip.maverick.com.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1352749531 897737 :Nisstyre!~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre JOIN :#esoteric < 1352750180 662015 :soundnfury!~edward@cpc36-cmbg15-2-0-cust160.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: yeah, but everything's an int, so you don't need the prototype at all because the compiler can guess it! < 1352750190 375319 :soundnfury!~edward@cpc36-cmbg15-2-0-cust160.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(assuming you're some kind of pre-ANSI freakazoid) < 1352750402 563897 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe you want to use [*] or [n] in the prototype to affect optimization at the caller? < 1352750663 313708 :rapido!~rapido@37-251-35-26.FTTH.ispfabriek.nl JOIN :#esoteric < 1352750713 550949 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :That sounds unlikely, since the standard says you must treat [n] in a prototype as if it were replaced by [*], and can't e.g. assume it will be [n] for the function definition. < 1352750756 155571 :monqy!~help@pool-98-108-214-230.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1352751299 856441 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why is it allowed then? Does it have something to do with macros? < 1352751400 159526 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which do you think is better (if either; maybe you think both are horrible), OkCupid or Internet Quiz Engine? They have many similar features but also differences; each has some things the other lacks. < 1352751439 866919 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :have you been discussing this continuously for the last 7 hours? < 1352751466 556956 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. But, have you been? I doubt it. < 1352751542 586488 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :How to I stop the mouse wheel from moving? < 1352751558 87302 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know why the non-[*] version is allowed; but it could be just for people who think it's clearer code that way, like the mentioned parameter names for functions that are also kind of ignored. < 1352751559 815830 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :just stop spinning it < 1352751570 279758 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :But sometimes I accidentally touch it. < 1352751606 435302 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Perhaps for automatic documentation generators? < 1352751629 751700 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although use with macros could be another reason. < 1352752054 590360 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I'm about to have a long running Python script communicate with a PHP script < 1352752056 312288 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :God help me < 1352752084 240494 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :better than only having a PHP script, I guess < 1352752130 669067 :atriq!~nathan@84.13.80.128 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Clearly the obvious solution is to use C# as an intermediary < 1352752142 666874 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or maybe I could figure out web.py and hope it works on the machine in question < 1352752167 488704 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, that might not even work, I can't use AJAX to communicate with a different server than the page is hosted from, right? < 1352752174 32176 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :FILE SELECTION = SINGLE PLAYER | CUSTOM DATA | RENTAL | RANDOM | RANDOM RENTAL | DUPLICATE RANDOM | DUPLICATE RANDOM RENTAL | DRAFT | BALANCED MARSEILLAIS DRAFT | AUCTION | RENTAL AUCTION < 1352752529 185490 :epicmonkey!~epicmonke@188.134.41.172 JOIN :#esoteric < 1352752646 336765 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, right, of course: you need [*] in order to have prototypes with no parameter names, since you can't say [n] if you don't name n. < 1352752666 113585 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :"A function prototype can have parameters that have variable length array types (§6.7.5.2) using a special syntax as in int minimum(int, int[*][*]); This is consistent with other C prototypes where the name of the parameter need not be specified." (C99 Rationale.) < 1352752693 375712 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: O, yes, otherwise n might be a constant, I guess; that part makes sense at least. < 1352752714 341933 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, heh < 1352752798 220664 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently there was also "considerable debate" about the lexical ordering rules, because currently you can write void f(double a[*][*], int n); void f(a, n) int n; double a[n][n]; { ... } using the "old-style" function definition, but you can't write a modern definition with a parameter type list, because void f(double a[n][n], int n) is erroneous. < 1352752836 466065 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :In the end they decided extending the scope of that n to the start of the parameter list would have not been in the "Spirit of C", and they left it as it is. < 1352752872 435002 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :"This is an unforeseen side effect of Standard C prototype syntax." < 1352752918 884036 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :They also give the workaround: void f(double *ap, int n) { double (*a)[n] = (double (*)[n])ap; ... } < 1352752949 866590 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Then you can go ahead and use a[1][2] just like the old-style definition.) < 1352754454 338496 :augur!~augur@208.58.5.87 JOIN :#esoteric < 1352755023 357642 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :What option do you want for pokemon battle game? < 1352755056 876131 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you talking about an actual game, or that pokemon battle programming language idea? < 1352755112 690963 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I mean hypothetically an actual game. < 1352755138 611789 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wrote a list of various idea of options which can be available. < 1352755145 628386 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :in that case, I think cool weather features could be fun < 1352755155 679503 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I agree; what weather features? < 1352755164 726494 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I... don't really know < 1352755177 65588 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :something more than just "it's gonna rain for the next five turns" though < 1352755188 43656 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe with temperature < 1352755189 794888 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean rule options. < 1352755205 226426 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and humidity < 1352755265 822944 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have options for time controls, team restrictions, finance, backgammon doubling cube, bag items, and various others. < 1352755299 825348 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, cool < 1352755328 545502 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :the backgammon doubling cube should be a universal feature that every computer game should allow < 1352755351 485059 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think it would work with every game < 1352755361 529140 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, probably not < 1352755536 494552 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/pokemon_rule.txt < 1352755622 774356 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :WHY ALL UPPERCASE? < 1352755656 398425 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because I want to. Only the comments will be not all uppercase. < 1352755711 408773 :atriq!~nathan@84.13.80.128 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"BANNED POKEMON [POKEMON]"? < 1352755739 459287 :atriq!~nathan@84.13.80.128 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or [BLACKLIST | WHITELIST] [POKEMON] < 1352755771 115542 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :That may be done using "SPECIES DATABASE" rule. < 1352755790 760915 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric : in that case, I think cool weather features could be fun ← oh no you don't DARE < 1352755793 688777 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :rage rage rage < 1352755804 199022 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :seriously please no < 1352755807 190936 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? < 1352755828 1630 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Arc_Koen: I'm a competitive Pokémon player < 1352755829 455989 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can list weather anyways but you would be able to turn it off if you don't want weather, anyways. < 1352755834 206549 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and weather has completely ruined the metagame < 1352755846 147997 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't tell me you've secretly been working on a nintendo ds pokemon game with barometer included < 1352755850 870667 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, right < 1352755862 305509 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nah, but I mean the existing weather conditions (especially rain) are completely broken < 1352755869 757951 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because they made them too good and too easy to set up < 1352755871 68597 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :thing is, if you make up your own pokemon game, I don't think metagame matters that much < 1352755873 871474 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's lead to the game being no fun as a result < 1352755881 365007 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless you are very good at advertising < 1352755883 703371 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Yes, so you would turn off the weather entirely in the server option if you want to. < 1352755896 37733 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: yes, in fact some people play with that rule (it's called Clear Skies) < 1352755901 462617 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the problem is, the default settings are more popular < 1352755906 346976 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you have ten thousand different sets of options < 1352755909 382368 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nobody will be able to find a game < 1352755976 53232 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :imagine chess where each player has their own personal rules for both sides of the board < 1352755978 242870 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no games would ever happen < 1352755998 797341 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :weeeeeeeell < 1352756016 464725 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think chess variants actually has a game which is like that. < 1352756033 106274 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1352756048 414151 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :But that is not relevant anyways. It would be the separate program, which the setting are configured by server, and it may have presets, too. < 1352756061 478260 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :you just gave me an idea for a chess variant < 1352756082 190366 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :something stratego-like: you don't know what rules your opponent is playing by < 1352756090 470391 :augur!~augur@208.58.5.87 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1352756115 501648 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can see where his pieces are but not what pieces they are, so you "learn" about his rules and pieces by watching his moves < 1352756135 150464 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Arc_Koen: Perhaps, Chess with Different Armies, but you don't know what army has been selected by your opponent but you can narrow the possibilities? < 1352756138 894916 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-254-65.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm pretty sure I saw that game somewhere actually < 1352756149 661016 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-254-65.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was more like stratego, a cold war themed game < 1352756149 806524 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :something like that < 1352756166 846684 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-254-65.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it came with a book where you could note down what you understood about the enemy forces < 1352756180 563888 :nooodl!~nooodl@91.177.46.251 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: i keep forgetting you're a competitive pokémon player but that's actually neat < 1352756183 353164 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :pieces placement should be somewhat arbitrary, otherwise you could narrow it down too much < 1352756183 535725 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-254-65.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :because one of their pieces is a "spy" that can move in weird ways while pretending to be something else < 1352756214 149166 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :for instance you shouldn't be able to know that all his pieces are shogi-like just because you've identified one gold general < 1352756219 701243 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Arc_Koen: Yes it could be made like that, I guess. < 1352756230 136370 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-254-65.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Arc_Koen: http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/2961/confusion-espionage-and-deception-in-the-cold-war found it. < 1352756238 49034 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :thank you < 1352756264 575854 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-254-65.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a review on youtube where the guy explains most of it. < 1352756359 995446 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: If you don't like weather, so if there is a rule option to disable weather, but what other rule option would you prefer? Is backgammon doubling cube OK? < 1352756370 954495 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes yes it is < 1352756377 275453 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :backgammon doubling cube is ALWAYS ok < 1352756389 323345 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :though I'm not sure what it would mean here < 1352756391 510739 :augur!~augur@208.58.5.87 JOIN :#esoteric < 1352756406 414296 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do you count points? the number of pokemon that have been taken out? < 1352756425 892113 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Arc_Koen: Battles won per match. < 1352756454 430417 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :However, since ais523 is Pokemon player, I ask them too. < 1352756475 602159 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Your Blissey has used all its Rests and doesn't have much health left... quitte ou double?" < 1352756493 290689 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"OK, quitte." *shoot blissey in the back* < 1352757208 573468 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: the tiebreakers normally used are Pokémon remaining, total HP remaining < 1352757248 287529 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the most obvious way to use the doubling cube, though, would be to give 1 point for a win, 0 for a loss, first to 7 < 1352757251 398761 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :with the doubling cube doubling as normal < 1352757262 247286 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, and you can't use it if you're 5-6 down < 1352757269 502038 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think this is the normal tournament backgammon rules < 1352757294 557934 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that is the "MATCH POINTS" option, set it to 7. To disallow use when a player has 6 points, you can enable doubling cube with Crawford rule. < 1352757296 357414 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it works in any 2-player zero-sum game where "win", "loss", possibly "draw" are the only outcomes < 1352757308 253364 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: yep, I'm saying that that's the sensible way to use doubling cube with Pokémon < 1352757331 782453 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Arc_Koen: also Blissey never runs Rest, it has Softboiled and Aromatherapy < 1352757342 24368 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :softboiled, right < 1352757344 162111 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, it wouldn't be an /awful/ user of Rest, but it has better < 1352757356 774896 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Another rule is ties stand, which is my preference. I have, however, added the other options too. < 1352757384 715572 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmmm what about doubling Rest with Sleep talk < 1352757387 521965 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :or something < 1352757388 765377 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's quite a complicated set of tiebreaks in Pokémon, that are used in single elimination tournaments < 1352757393 585473 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :self-KO clause used to be really important, though < 1352757406 985384 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION doesn't like tie breakers
< 1352757410 146272 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Arc_Koen: that was good on some mons in gen 4 < 1352757430 327595 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Arc_Koen: well the most important is that if you use a self-destructing move when there's 1 mon each, or destiny bond (which is similar), you lose < 1352757436 213184 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah well I don't really want to know about gen 5 < 1352757448 292775 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :three of the legendary pokemons look like Zelda characters < 1352757470 385768 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know, I don't like that particular tie breaker either < 1352757494 441265 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :self-ko clause makes a big difference and is pretty important < 1352757514 288161 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I don't see anything wrong with ties < 1352757519 755559 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise things like custap wobbuffet (which isn't currently legal because there's no way to get the custap berry) would be really good < 1352757524 471746 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think they should be part of the game < 1352757527 801431 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :even more than they are anyway, I think < 1352757538 440703 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually it is my preference for both that and Pokemon card, where the attacker loses and if not due to an attack then ties stand. < 1352757540 668778 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it's more that it can be quite easy to force a tie even when you're clearly losing < 1352757545 435982 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :not familiar with english names for berries, sorry < 1352757559 914202 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Arc_Koen: the one that makes you always act first if on low health < 1352757565 644183 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, right < 1352757587 877150 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you mean there's no way to get the custap berry, then? < 1352757600 873165 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean that there's no way to get the custap berry < 1352757605 341209 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1352757616 601712 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what else could I mean? < 1352757638 502977 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: well it's more that it can be quite easy to force a tie even when you're clearly losing << which basically means you are not that clearly losing < 1352757718 19362 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't played competitive pokemon nearly enough to really have an opinion on this, but the same argument could be used against stalemate in chess, or against any other form of tie in any other game < 1352757851 755501 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well in chess, leaving your opponent an opportunity to stalemate themselves is considered a mistake < 1352758074 62083 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless the alternative makes your opponent win. < 1352758161 809516 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm just saying that "clearly winning" depends on the rules, and "this rule is unfair because it allows for a tie in a situation where I was clearly winning" doesn't really make any sense in itself < 1352758649 27817 :epicmonkey!~epicmonke@188.134.41.172 QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1352758714 429208 :nooga!~nooga@ip-46-250-173-30.ip.maverick.com.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1352758774 772075 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: is there a tie-breaking rule in the TCG? is that a somewhat new addition? < 1352758955 141699 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1352759363 284711 :atriq!~nathan@84.13.80.128 QUIT :Quit: food < 1352759586 220244 :rapido!~rapido@37-251-35-26.FTTH.ispfabriek.nl QUIT :Quit: rapido < 1352759640 737267 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gold plated optical. http://dx.com/p/gold-plated-digital-audio-optical-fiber-toslink-cable-black-150cm-135805?item=35 < 1352759675 671691 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I haven't read the whole discussion yet so please excuse me if I say soething that has already been said, but I disagree with your iota-based example at http://esolangs.org/wiki/User_talk:Smjg < 1352759700 693193 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :in my sense it was implied that turing-completeness was related to the means of output < 1352759731 978781 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the language you describe is clearly not turing-complete regarding the " output < 1352759762 81493 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(because all iota programs are semantically equivalent with regards to that output) < 1352759827 462219 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, that's what Oerjan answered < 1352760119 26703 :atriq!~nathan@host-84-13-80-128.opaltelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1352760241 280067 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, the local brick & mortar computer store has really got their act together wrt hobby electronics < 1352760258 928464 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :they have a bunch of different sorts of arduinos, robot parts, raspberry pi kit, tools, etc < 1352760265 827853 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i bought a servo < 1352760398 371537 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :atriq: I was thinking about a joke language that would be an extension to deadfish and that you might like < 1352760427 56071 :atriq!~nathan@host-84-13-80-128.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Go on? < 1352760431 906125 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :first it is to be noted that it's way more computationally powerful that deadfish, because instead of a single accumulator it has A WHOLE STACK < 1352760441 835870 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :for that reason it would be called Homestack < 1352760448 543463 :monqy!~help@pool-98-108-214-230.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1352760450 967445 :atriq!~nathan@host-84-13-80-128.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pun on the comic? < 1352760456 122710 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :the stack can only host up to four elements < 1352760467 170886 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :trying to push a fifth result in the bottom element being discarded < 1352760485 358427 :monqy!~help@pool-98-108-214-230.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the joke < 1352760497 735672 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's no joke < 1352760501 594696 :nooodl!~nooodl@91.177.46.251 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1352760524 82837 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :"punchline? there is no punchline" < 1352760550 77519 :nooodl!~nooodl@91.177.46.251 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i believe that, keeping with the theme of people being bad at inventing names for derivative languages, it should be called a) "DeadStack" or b) "StackFish" < 1352760557 438011 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah I learned that way of telling jokes from my father < 1352760575 11600 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin QUIT :Quit: Computer has gone to sleep. < 1352760589 629463 :atriq!~nathan@host-84-13-80-128.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Stackfishdeadbrain < 1352760591 369336 :nooodl!~nooodl@91.177.46.251 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i recommend the latter because of the semi clever "stockfish" pun < 1352760600 541571 :monqy!~help@pool-98-108-214-230.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :well if it's a joke language < 1352760604 841191 :monqy!~help@pool-98-108-214-230.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric ::{ < 1352760607 872932 :atriq!~nathan@host-84-13-80-128.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fishstacks < 1352760631 125208 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you like fishsticks? < 1352760647 405704 :atriq!~nathan@host-84-13-80-128.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I'm not a gay fish < 1352760649 770686 :nooodl!~nooodl@91.177.46.251 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fishstacks is better < 1352760709 812973 :nooodl!~nooodl@91.177.46.251 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you should write a spec for this language in 30 seconds < 1352760720 260145 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's not a lot < 1352760725 376961 :nooodl!~nooodl@91.177.46.251 PRIVMSG #esoteric :GO < 1352760740 252098 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :seeing as how I'm a wikitable-freak I'd have to save the 20 last seconds for format < 1352760756 802983 :monqy!~help@pool-98-108-214-230.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you set a timer and whatever you write in 30 seconds specifies your language, probably it'd be bad and nobody would understand it < 1352760764 384422 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1352760772 824955 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :now I need to find a timer < 1352760900 750220 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1352760914 639517 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :my phone had a timer but I set it to 30 minutes instead < 1352760922 355284 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently it doesn't have seconds < 1352760933 847560 :monqy!~help@pool-98-108-214-230.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe the extra time will improve the quality of your specification < 1352760956 949893 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :fishstacks is a deadfish derivative based on a stack the stack can only hold four elements when a fifth element is pushed the bottom element is kicked out and eventually printed out to the screen. The name was originally meant to be Hpmestack but it was suggested that DeafStack or StackFish would be a better name as it is a derivative but eventually atriq came up with Fishstakc the commands are i increment d decrement p push a ne < 1352760957 135622 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :square top element. < 1352760971 654665 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps bonghits will fix your language specification < 1352761004 575760 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :DeafStack "because it has no input" < 1352761042 322699 :monqy!~help@pool-98-108-214-230.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i';m glad that now i can use this language to write a program? < 1352761077 498021 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly: In Pokemon Card, I think the standard tiebreaking rule is that if one player win one way, other player win two ways, the player winning two ways wins, otherwise you play the duel with the same decks but only one side card each. My rule is that number of ways you win and so on is irrelevant; attacker loses otherwise the tie stands. < 1352761091 579284 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, you can < 1352761114 539845 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :though the fact that I did not think about including a pop function during those extended 30 seconds is regrettable < 1352761176 942848 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly: What do you prefer for tiebreaking rule? Another rule I use with Pokemon Card is overmate. < 1352761189 217988 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's overmate? < 1352761220 631702 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Hm, I didn't know about the "winning in more ways" thing, but I'm familiar with the single-prize-card tiebreaking match thing < 1352761293 145670 :nooodl!~nooodl@91.177.46.251 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what was happening at "a ne\nsquare top element" < 1352761322 94138 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Overmate is my own rule. Normally you have overmate 0, and then add 1 for each extra side card you would pick up but you can't, add 1 if opponent's draw pile is empty, add 1 if your draw pile is empty, and add 1 if you won in two ways. < 1352761363 268296 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is an extra score you earn. < 1352761367 190131 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooodl: I just had a weird déjà-vu feeling when you said that < 1352761367 851217 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 JOIN :#esoteric < 1352761401 271758 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if the question was sincere I said "p push a new 0 s square top element" < 1352761411 931483 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly: What I mentioned was the older rules; I don't know what the new rules say about such things. < 1352761428 638204 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, I haven't played in ages either < 1352761436 423811 :nooodl!~nooodl@91.177.46.251 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so because you forgot about "pop", p is really just "set the accumulator to zero" < 1352761476 476136 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, it's slightly more *cough* subtle that that < 1352761478 997396 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know some things about the newer rules, and actually I prefer the older rules. I also invented additional rules which are only available in Limited. < 1352761525 564887 :nooodl!~nooodl@91.177.46.251 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh i guess you have to p once at the start of your program at least < 1352761609 242397 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :well and the print function is different < 1352761648 531925 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :so when "setting the accumulator to 0" you're actually putting the previous accumulator in the output queue < 1352761670 22062 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(did I say "stack" before? :D) < 1352761693 190657 :nooodl!~nooodl@91.177.46.251 PRIVMSG #esoteric :now you have to call is < 1352761701 565928 :nooodl!~nooodl@91.177.46.251 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"DequeFish".... < 1352761993 695923 :nooga!~nooga@ip-46-250-173-30.ip.maverick.com.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1352762400 546283 :nooga!~nooga@ip-46-250-173-30.ip.maverick.com.pl QUIT :*.net *.split < 1352762400 694976 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca QUIT :*.net *.split < 1352762400 842929 :myndzi!myndzi@2600:3c01::f03c:91ff:fedf:3d4e QUIT :*.net *.split < 1352762401 4904 :Sanky!~SankyZNC@unaffiliated/sanky QUIT :*.net *.split < 1352762401 150449 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com QUIT :*.net *.split < 1352762586 467544 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey nooodl, do you have a user account on the wiki so that I can give you the credits you deserve? < 1352762594 936326 :nooodl!~nooodl@91.177.46.251 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no :( < 1352762641 270426 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh hey my timer just rang < 1352762959 19096 :nooga!~nooga@ip-46-250-173-30.ip.maverick.com.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1352762959 164846 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1352762959 165011 :myndzi!myndzi@2600:3c01::f03c:91ff:fedf:3d4e JOIN :#esoteric < 1352762959 165089 :Sanky!~SankyZNC@unaffiliated/sanky JOIN :#esoteric < 1352762959 165165 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1352763345 60346 :nooodl!~nooodl@91.177.46.251 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm guessing this should work? http://pastie.org/5368841 < 1352763359 9331 :nooodl!~nooodl@91.177.46.251 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's kind of smart ass-y < 1352763473 976690 :monqy!~help@pool-98-108-214-230.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :what if you get accum up to anything above 16 then square it < 1352763496 901814 :nooodl!~nooodl@91.177.46.251 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's < 1352763501 217298 :nooodl!~nooodl@91.177.46.251 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"the classic deadfish issue" < 1352763505 757180 :monqy!~help@pool-98-108-214-230.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1352763517 972713 :monqy!~help@pool-98-108-214-230.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :how classic⇧ < 1352763519 648492 :nooodl!~nooodl@91.177.46.251 PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Nooodl < 1352763535 304734 :monqy!~help@pool-98-108-214-230.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heading text < 1352763618 790350 :nooodl!~nooodl@91.177.46.251 PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: you should write something on my user page < 1352763631 720703 :nooodl!~nooodl@91.177.46.251 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(not user talk. user) < 1352763632 528217 :monqy!~help@pool-98-108-214-230.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but what do i write < 1352763654 964208 :nooodl!~nooodl@91.177.46.251 PRIVMSG #esoteric :something about heading text clearly < 1352763684 628424 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin JOIN :#esoteric < 1352763720 828464 :monqy!~help@pool-98-108-214-230.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok i wrote something < 1352763724 483037 :monqy!~help@pool-98-108-214-230.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :refresh your userpage < 1352763727 42952 :monqy!~help@pool-98-108-214-230.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and be amazed??? < 1352763741 255408 :nooodl!~nooodl@91.177.46.251 PRIVMSG #esoteric :good edit < 1352763759 511378 :nooodl!~nooodl@91.177.46.251 PRIVMSG #esoteric :good edit message < 1352763881 922296 :nooodl!~nooodl@91.177.46.251 PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=User:Monqy&action=history http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=User:Nooodl&action=history < 1352764019 943027 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooodl: I'm not sure your implementation works properly with output, but I have never seen that language before so I can't really tell < 1352764234 771968 :nooodl!~nooodl@91.177.46.251 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds