←2012-11-12 2012-11-13 2012-11-14→ ↑2012 ↑all
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01:22:45 <Sgeo> If there's only one place that something's being deployed, it's fine to use features specific to that environment, right?
01:22:48 <Sgeo> (e.g. named pipes)
01:23:27 <Bike> that depends on a lot of factors, don't you think? like whether whoever you're deploying it for might want to spread out later, or whether you're being paid enough to care
01:37:29 <kmc> indeed
01:37:37 <kmc> also named pipes are supported by most operating systems
01:39:32 <Sgeo> I feel like I should be using local sockets, not sure if that's easier or not :/
01:39:46 <Sgeo> Basically, PHP page acts as a client and long running Python script acts as a server
01:39:56 <kmc> PHP: not even once
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01:46:59 <kmc> maybe you could write the client in a language other than the worst language ever
01:48:01 <Sgeo> All it's going to do is serve the data to an AJAX call
01:49:45 <Sgeo> Hmm, JSONP is a thing that exists that I could use
01:49:52 <Sgeo> But then I'd have to learn some sort of ... hm
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01:54:37 <kmc> why not serve it from the python process
01:55:15 <Sgeo> Because I'd have to do JSONPish stuff
01:55:20 <Sgeo> Which I guess I can do
01:55:28 <kmc> why would you
01:55:30 <Sgeo> I don't know if I can run a Python process on this server to do web stuff
01:55:30 <kmc> how does that follow
01:55:49 <Sgeo> Because I'm still using some other server for most of the web stuff
01:56:00 <Sgeo> Not going to start messing with that, it's not really under my control
01:56:09 <kmc> ah, you are on some kind of shared hosting and you have mod_php and not mod_wsgi or mod_fastcgi
01:56:18 <kmc> sucks
01:56:30 <kmc> i still don't see what this has to do with JSONP
01:56:37 <Phantom_Hoover> hey Sgeo you finished fine structure right
01:56:41 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, yes
01:56:46 <kmc> is it because you would have to host it on a different domain
01:56:49 <Phantom_Hoover> ah
01:56:55 <Sgeo> I don't know anything about mod_wsgi or mod_fastcgi
01:57:01 <Sgeo> Those could be installed, I guess
01:57:06 <Phantom_Hoover> @tell elliott finish fine structure you knob
01:57:06 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
01:57:08 <Sgeo> I have no idea
01:57:16 <kmc> i guess what i'm saying is, your frontend web server (apache or whatever) knows how to talk to PHP, but not Python?
01:57:17 <Phantom_Hoover> @tell Sgeo finish ds9 you knob
01:57:17 <Sgeo> It would be on a different port
01:57:17 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
01:57:18 <lambdabot> Sgeo: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
01:57:38 <Sgeo> kmc, I have no idea if it knows how to talk to a long running Python process
01:57:39 <kmc> well typically web apps are configured with a frontend server proxying to one or more application server processes
01:58:11 <kmc> the proxying can be literally HTTP proxying over localhost, or it could be FastCGI protocol, or WSGI which is a python-spceific thing I don't know much about
02:00:46 <Sgeo> "These days, FastCGI is never used directly. Just like mod_python, it is only used for the deployment of WSGI applications."
02:00:58 <Sgeo> I really just want to do a two second thing, why can't I just FastCGI directly
02:01:05 <kmc> i'm not really sure what that means "never used directly"
02:01:18 <kmc> it's probably lies
02:01:40 <kmc> it's true that whatever's on the other end that parses the fastcgi requests will probably go through WSGI
02:01:46 <kmc> because most python web app frameworks are built around WSGI
02:02:15 <Lumpio-> 04:00:58 < Sgeo> I really just want to do a two second thing, why can't I just FastCGI directly
02:02:21 <Lumpio-> Because it's easier to do wsgi
02:02:27 <kmc> at work we are using FastCGI because nginx's native wsgi support seemed pretty half-baked
02:02:37 <Lumpio-> Is it really that bad?
02:02:38 <kmc> and because we know about fastcgi and have used it before
02:02:52 <Lumpio-> uwsgi_pass etc
02:03:16 <kmc> the extent of it is that I went to http://wiki.nginx.org/NgxWSGIModule and observed "From LoONeYChIKuN: I was able to successfully get this to compile on 0.8.30 and 0.7.64 using this patch." and "From JacobSingh: I tested this against 0.6.23 and it didn't compile."
02:03:17 <Sgeo> I could easily just take this code snippit on this page and adapt it to my needs
02:03:28 <Sgeo> Not that difficult
02:04:51 <kmc> http://blog.zacharyvoase.com/2010/03/05/django-uwsgi-nginx/ looks pretty complicated compared to "apt-get install nginx python-flup"
02:05:13 <Lumpio-> Well that's mostly because it starting from compiling freaking nginx
02:05:26 <Lumpio-> -ing
02:05:54 <kmc> well why does it seem that everyone who wants to use nginx with wsgi has to compile it from scratch with weird patches etc
02:06:08 <Lumpio-> I have no idea
02:06:11 <Lumpio-> I didn't
02:06:19 <kmc> i didn't do in-depth research, but this pattern seemed to bode poorly
02:06:23 <kmc> what did you do
02:07:09 <Lumpio-> pacman -S nginx; yaourt -S uwsgi
02:07:24 <shachaf> I spent a while puzzling through this overly-simple generate Core before realizing that I had main = return ()
02:07:35 <Lumpio-> Granted that second command does actually compile the thing but it's automatic. Think Gentoo except better
02:08:27 <kmc> cool
02:08:54 <Lumpio-> I think it also creates the init script
02:09:09 <Lumpio-> (Which will probably break in the next update due to systemd but hey)
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02:10:04 <Lumpio-> But at any rate, I can now get a WSGI app to magically appear in a location by putting two or three lines in the respective place in nginx's configuration
02:10:10 <kmc> cool
02:10:21 <Lumpio-> ...I wouldn't run Arch on a server though
02:10:30 <Lumpio-> I mean, on a server that has some sort of reliability requirement
02:10:30 <kmc> so do you have to run some separate uwsgi process or does nginx launch that
02:10:49 <Lumpio-> I do have to run uwsgid
02:11:07 <Sgeo> I don't think it's working
02:11:09 <Lumpio-> But setting that up is a one-time thing (just like any other daemon)
02:11:16 <Lumpio-> And it can run multiple apps
02:11:19 <kmc> ok
02:12:11 <Lumpio-> That's the easiest way I've been able to figure out how to run Python web stuff under nginx
02:12:18 <Lumpio-> Least configuration per app
02:12:24 <kmc> okay, cool
02:12:27 <kmc> thanks for the info :)
02:14:01 <Sgeo> ENGINE Serving on
02:14:07 <Sgeo> (With CherryPy)
02:14:21 <Sgeo> Yet I can't access it from my browser
02:14:31 <Sgeo> Wondering if need to config to make it externally visible
02:15:36 <kmc> well is it running on the same machine as your browser?
02:16:25 <Sgeo> No
02:16:39 <kmc> well, that's why then
02:16:47 <kmc> it's listening on the interface with IP
02:28:58 <Sgeo> Do I need to find the exact IP of the server?
02:31:19 <kmc> your computer is broadcasting an IP address!
02:31:34 <kmc> if you want to listen on all interfaces you can probably say ":8080" or "" on the command line
02:31:39 <kmc> i don't know what exactly you did to invoke cherrypy
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02:32:59 <Sgeo> Found a configuration thing
02:33:13 <Sgeo> It's still not working
02:34:39 <zzo38> miss...
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02:35:06 <Sgeo_> I give up, I'll do the PHP thing
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02:44:30 <kmc> nooooo
02:44:55 <kmc> that's like saying school is too hard, so you're going to drop out and smoke crack under a bridge
02:45:29 <Sgeo_> Sort of have a harsh deadline right now, so don't really care
02:45:41 <Sgeo_> (Because I procrastinated all weekend)
02:47:04 <shachaf> Why is benchmarking hard? :-(
02:53:45 <Arc_Koen> I was just thinking, they could try to use the gate's technology to clone people
02:53:58 <Arc_Koen> and then I watch this episode and what does McKay do?
03:00:19 <kmc> http://www.inc.com/magazine/20110201/in-norway-start-ups-say-ja-to-socialism.html
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03:07:28 <kmc> would you say that the abbreviation of plural "file descriptors" is "fds", "FDs", "fd's", or "FD's"
03:08:34 <shachaf> "fds" or "FDs".
03:08:47 * shachaf is on the anti-apostrophe-pluralization committee.
03:09:43 <kmc> yeah, i gather it is only correct in limited cases
03:09:46 <kmc> like single letters
03:10:28 <shachaf> I don't even like it in those limited cases.
03:10:38 <shachaf> That may be an overreaction.
03:10:58 <shachaf> Well, in the case of a single letter I'm fine with it if you put apostrophes on both sides of the letter. :-)
03:20:15 <Arc_Koen> Well in the case of a single letter I'm fine with putting apostrophes on both sides of the letter if you put s's on both sides too
03:20:31 <Arc_Koen> s's's
03:20:37 <kmc> obviously the plural of 'o' is 'ꙮ'
03:21:09 <Arc_Koen> s'probably something wrong with encoding but I see that as "the plural of 'round' is 'square'"
03:21:16 <shachaf> kmc never misses an opportunity to ꙮ.
03:21:27 <shachaf> Arc_Koen: I think that's just because you're racist or something.
03:21:29 <shachaf> Sorry. :-(
03:21:40 <Arc_Koen> what!
03:21:47 <Arc_Koen> why didn't anyone warn me before
03:22:06 <Arc_Koen> I think I had the right to know if I was racist
03:22:29 <Arc_Koen> wonder what "or something" might be, though
03:23:32 <Arc_Koen> hey, hasn't anyone come up with "2-dimensional Thue" yet?
03:23:39 <kmc> it's 'CYRILLIC LETTER MULTIOCULAR O' (U+A66E)
03:24:01 <Arc_Koen> multio? you mean like 8?
03:24:17 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiocular_O
03:24:47 <Arc_Koen> now that's just disturbing
03:24:47 <kmc> it bothers me that the unicode reference glyph has 7 eyes, and the only primary source for the character I could locate has 10 eyes
03:25:08 <kmc> Arc_Koen: I spent a long time tracking down the origin of this character with help from various people on IRC and such
03:25:22 <kmc> had to find a copy of a soviet era paleography textbook on russian rapidshare
03:27:10 <kmc> oh no, "Proposal to encode additional Cyrillic characters in the BMP of the UCS" is now a 404
03:27:33 <Arc_Koen> http://imageshack.us/scaled/landing/809/capturedcran20121113042.png
03:28:02 <Arc_Koen> it's like they *want* me not to see it
03:28:03 <kmc> yeah
03:28:06 <kmc> get some better fonts
03:28:21 <kmc> that article has a picture though
03:28:28 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Cyrillic_letter_Multiocular_O.png
03:28:30 <Arc_Koen> an ugly one, yes
03:28:43 <kmc> ꙮꙮꙮꙮꙮꙮꙮꙮ
03:28:52 <Arc_Koen> is that 8 of them
03:29:03 <Arc_Koen> don't you think that might be dangerous?
03:31:35 <Arc_Koen> ok well see you tomorrow
03:31:53 <Arc_Koen> (that was supposed to be a reference to discworld btw)
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03:34:00 <kmc> apparently most hands in texas hold-'em are not worth playing
03:34:16 <Bike> you can bet on anything~
03:34:36 <kmc> what do you mean
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04:14:02 <zzo38> kmc: Well, yes, you get only two cards so it is difficult to know right away if it is best to play; however there is other things such as your current score, position, current bet, various other things to decide if it is worth playing or not; the probabilities are just one factor of many. But if you have two aces and no flop cards yet, you should probably play.
04:14:57 <zzo38> If you have two aces, the flop cards two of them are aces, and the third is 2 to 9, then you should definitely play.
04:15:20 <zzo38> Well, maybe not 2 to 9, maybe 6 to 9.
04:16:50 <zzo38> Actually I think I am wrong.
04:16:57 <zzo38> But nevertheless you should probably play.
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04:18:25 <Sgeo_> I want to hurt whoever designed the Python version of the PubNub API.
04:19:43 <shachaf> Sgeo_: What does that have to do with Clojure?
04:20:38 <Sgeo_> This project I'm working on that involves Python and PHP and PubNub is more important than the little Clojure project I have going. Does that count as having something to do with Clojure?
04:23:05 <Sgeo_> subscribe is blocking. I want the event loop to be separate from subscribe
04:23:33 <Sgeo_> kmc, I think this is a good example of that article you linked, an advantage of node.js being that people make interoperable APIs
04:27:08 <kmc> yeah
04:27:12 <Sgeo_> And importantly, things other than the event loop wouldn't block *glare*
04:27:40 <Sgeo_> I need to subscribe to an indeterminate number of channels, not just one. I don't think Python threads are lightweight]
04:28:29 <kmc> python threads are a disaster
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04:29:10 <Sgeo_> Not using them for parallel processing, just using them to get around the blocking API
04:29:56 <Sgeo_> And it's blocking because of a while True: not because of some C stuff.
04:30:19 <Sgeo_> So, are they a disaster in a way other than the GIL, because I don't see how the GIL would hurt my use-case
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04:44:15 <zzo38> I made some more rules of Pokemon game
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04:47:20 <zzo38> What are you think of such things as this?
04:48:09 <quintopia> i'm not really that into pokemon
04:48:18 <quintopia> or card-collecting games in general
04:48:31 <quintopia> btw, who wants some old mtg cards?
04:48:56 <quintopia> you can have them for 8 bucks shipping included
04:49:25 <zzo38> I don't want any; I only play Limited.
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05:11:57 <Sgeo_> http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=477454
05:12:15 <Sgeo_> An argument about whether or not it's a horrific thing that there's an insult in the code
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05:12:27 <Sgeo_> It's agreed that it's bad, but not agreed if it's urgently bad
05:23:04 <kmc> haha
05:25:11 <kmc> they didn't even spell his name right
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05:26:12 <zzo38> Once I wrote a "impossible physics list", among other things it includes smaller atoms and universes where thirteen is not prime.
05:28:01 <kmc> smaller than what?
05:29:28 <zzo38> Smaller than hydrogen atoms.
05:30:38 <Bike> what if the nuclear forces were stronger?
05:33:19 <zzo38> It is based on I read a impossible physics book, which includes such things as invisibility, antimatter, starships, death star, and a few things, grouped into class I to class III impossibility.
05:37:51 <zzo38> In my list I also included: making time go sideways, subjuctive television, Pokemon, dreams that it is impossible to wake up, anti-logic zones, people with mirrored molecules, ...
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08:09:36 <shachaf> > (["hi","there"],["new","haskellers"]) % partsOf (both.traverse.traverse) .~ "GREETINGS"
08:09:38 <lambdabot> (["GR","EETIN"],["GSw","haskellers"])
08:09:51 <shachaf> > (["hi","there"],["new","haskellers"]) % partsOf (both.traverse.traverse) %~ reverse
08:09:53 <lambdabot> (["sr","ellek"],["sah","wenerehtih"])
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08:11:57 <fizzie> Señor Ellek.
08:12:28 <shachaf> > (["hi","there"],["new","haskellers"]) % partsOf (both.traverse.traverse) %~ reverse % both %~ reverse
08:12:31 <lambdabot> (["ellek","sr"],["wenerehtih","sah"])
08:12:36 <shachaf> You're thinking of Ellek Sr.
08:13:05 <fizzie> Senior Engineer Señor Ellek Sr.
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09:53:04 <atriq> I like the most recent Girl Genius
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11:12:24 <atriq> I think this is becoming one of the most ridiculously overkill brainfuck interpreters ever
11:14:40 <atriq> Hmm
11:14:43 <atriq> Needs more comonads
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14:20:36 <atriq> Fueue is a ridiculous language
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16:23:08 <ais523> huh, that was a surprisingly thoughtful scam email
16:23:17 <ais523> the thought behind it was that it actually identified my mail provider correctly
16:23:22 <ais523> admittedly, it could have done that from the address
16:32:24 <atriq> Arc_Koen, in your implementations of Fueue, what was the divide by zero behaviour?
16:33:17 <Arc_Koen> well I remember asking you a few times, and since you said it was unspecified, I guess I must have let it for Ocaml to raise its appropriate exception
16:33:20 <Arc_Koen> let me see
16:34:23 <Arc_Koen> oh, wait I had two implementations
16:34:39 <Arc_Koen> ~/desktop/ocaml stephan$ gcc -o fueue fueue.c
16:34:39 <Arc_Koen> ~/desktop/ocaml stephan$ ./fueue '/ 5 0'
16:34:40 <Arc_Koen> Floating point exception
16:35:15 <atriq> Thanks
16:35:23 <Arc_Koen> ~/desktop/ocaml stephan$ ocamlc -o fueue fueue.ml
16:35:23 <Arc_Koen> ~/desktop/ocaml stephan$ ./fueue '/ 5 0'
16:35:23 <Arc_Koen> Fatal error: exception Division_by_zero
16:35:43 <atriq> I'm trying to do my version, except better, this time
16:35:57 <Arc_Koen> so the ocaml one clearly raise Division_by_zero when doing the division
16:36:08 <Arc_Koen> I'm not sure when the Floating point exception occurs in the C one, though
16:36:13 <Arc_Koen> but you're welcome :)
16:37:57 <Arc_Koen> ./fueuec '/ 129 2 ~ H'
16:37:57 <Arc_Koen> @
16:38:07 <Arc_Koen> yup, so floating point only seem to occur with 0
16:38:30 <atriq> Good, I think that's what I meant
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16:39:15 <Arc_Koen> let me know when you're done
16:39:39 <atriq> Probably never
16:44:16 <nooodl> hmmm i'm thinking up quite the language here!
16:44:16 <lambdabot> nooodl: You have 3 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
16:44:20 <nooodl> uh oh
16:45:27 <nooodl> here's the deal: befunge, on an infinite-D 2x2x2x2x2x... board
16:46:02 <nooodl> so your position is just a binary number. by default the pointer goes 0, 1, 0, 1, 0, 1, etc
16:47:23 <elliott> nooodl: then most positions on the board are inaccessible
16:47:26 <elliott> or the language is super-TC
16:48:34 <atriq> I'd reckon it's linear-bounded
16:48:43 <nooodl> what's super-TC
16:48:49 <atriq> If there's a start moving in direction n command
16:49:06 <atriq> nooodl, a turing-machine is less powerful than it if it's super-TC
16:50:02 <atriq> A Turing-machine is a kind of machine which is conjectured to be able to execute any well-defined algorithm
16:51:55 <nooodl> anyway, moving around involves just going "x ^= dx", however, i'm going to somehow implement being able to modify multiple derivatives of x
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16:53:13 <nooodl> so with multi-dimensional wrapping and speed, acceleration, jerk, jounce etc. set, you can make more intersting loops around the board
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16:57:29 <nooodl> http://codepad.org/ZgbFzZ1c apparently you can make paths with a length of up to 2^ceil(log2(x)) when you define x derivatives of position
16:59:20 <Arc_Koen> nooodl: http://esolangs.org/wiki/List_of_ideas#Based_on_dimensions
16:59:21 <nooodl> or uh, not really. it's 2^ceil(log2(x-1)), or something. anyway, to move around, instead of setting dx and dy to some value like befunge, you push dx, ddx, dddx, ddddx etc. onto a "movement stack"
16:59:40 <elliott> <nooodl> what's super-TC
16:59:42 <elliott> nooodl: uncomputable
16:59:55 <elliott> I am saying that either you cannot set the position to most possible values or your language is uncomputable
17:00:32 <Arc_Koen> nooodl: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:Hcbf
17:02:53 <nooodl> yeah, the coords have to end with an infinite amount of 0s
17:03:16 <oklofok> uncomputable is such a broad term
17:03:34 <nooodl> there's no bound to the number of dimensions your position can have, but it can't ever be infinite
17:03:43 <oklofok> how boring
17:03:46 <oklofok> inf-anf-i
17:03:50 <oklofok> oops.
17:03:56 <oklofok> inf-anf-oh at least had periodic points
17:05:02 <Arc_Koen> nooodl: why not
17:05:28 <Arc_Koen> if you can unambiguously describe an infinite binary sequence, it should be ok :)
17:06:57 <nooodl> i've considered that. representing position as a function (N -> Bool)
17:07:20 <Arc_Koen> but you'd need to have means to test those functions for equality, at least
17:07:46 <Arc_Koen> and thing is I'm not sure you'd be adding much to the language by allowing infinite sequence
17:07:51 <nooodl> yeah that's the issue
17:08:21 <elliott> <Arc_Koen> if you can unambiguously describe an infinite binary sequence, it should be ok :)
17:08:33 <elliott> almost all infinite binary sequences cannot be described by any finite program
17:08:45 <Arc_Koen> for instance, "rational numbers" or whatever you call repeated sequences, can be describe with a notation such as "(finite sequence)*"
17:08:55 <oklofok> unless your measure has atoms
17:09:31 <Arc_Koen> but in that case you're only adding the possibility to put a * after a finite sequence, so you are only "multiplying by two" the possibilities, which is kinda lame since there already are an infinite number of them
17:09:47 <Arc_Koen> elliott: yes that's the issue
17:10:42 <nooodl> things stay considerably more sane if you don't allow for coordinates like (1, 1, 1, 1, 1, ...)
17:12:46 <oklofok> so, are you using the cantor topology for the space of all positions
17:12:50 <ais523> "comparing functions for equality" is on my mental list of "the simplest things you can't do"
17:13:23 <oklofok> ais523: you have some nice language for describing sequences so that equality is decidable right?
17:14:47 <oklofok> there's automatic sequences and fixed points of substitutions
17:14:52 <oklofok> in math
17:15:34 <oklofok> although perhaps for the latter equality is not in general decidable, but i think it is for primitive substitutions or something
17:15:47 <Arc_Koen> the first time I thought about creating my own language I had an idea to include infinite sequences in it
17:16:33 <Arc_Koen> using lazy-evaluating for-like statements and a few other things of the like
17:17:41 <nooodl> not every infinite sequence is describable, though, right
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17:24:29 <oklofok> pretty much everything you'll ever need is describable
17:25:20 <oklofok> (in math you occasionally need things you cannot describe exactly, but are members of some nonempty set you can describe)
17:25:48 <elliott> nooodl: (in case it isn't clear, positions in your language are isomorphic to reals)
17:26:54 <nooodl> well if i'm not allowing for anything that doesn't end in "0 repeating" they're isomorphic to naturals, right
17:27:25 <nooodl> because (0, 1, 0, 1, 1, 0 repeating) is just 0b11010
17:28:55 <ais523> nooodl: and if you allow any sequence to repeat, it's isomorphic to the rationals
17:29:00 <ais523> which are isomorphic to the integers
17:29:11 <ais523> as in, always ends with a repeating sequence but you can specify waht
17:29:12 <ais523> *what
17:29:57 <oklofok> eventually periodic
17:29:58 <atriq> Which was the basis of my informal proof the other day in a maths lesson that the digits of pi cannot be found within pi except for the obvious case of starting from the beginning
17:30:45 <atriq> Because it implies repetition, which implies rationality
17:30:49 <atriq> And pi is irrational
17:31:01 <oklofok> a characterization of periodicity is indeed that the sequence contains itself as a tail
17:31:40 <oklofok> it's harder to prove that pi is irrational presumably
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17:32:56 <oklofok> another characterization is this: there exists n such that the sequence contains at most n n-letter substrings
17:33:17 <oklofok> can you prove this? can you think of a two-dimensional analogue? is it true? can you prove it?
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17:34:13 <atriq> No, no, yes, no
17:34:40 <oklofok> dunno about the third one
17:35:00 <oklofok> the natural two-dimensional version is called nivat's conjecture
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17:36:11 <oklofok> so it's known that if there are at most 2n rectangles of shape n times 2, then the configuration is periodic (in at least one direction)
17:36:49 <oklofok> and recently it was proved that if there are at most nk/2 subrectangles of shape n times k then again it's periodic in some direction.
17:37:28 <elliott> how recently are we talking here
17:37:36 <oklofok> this year iirc
17:38:35 <oklofok> we're going through the paper now, it's a bit annoying since we came up with all the main ideas in a seminar a few years back, except for the crucial idea of writing anything down.
17:39:04 <oklofok> (mostly based on the work of a guy in our university who had the record nk/16 then)
17:39:14 <elliott> how long until nk/1?!?!?!?!
17:39:44 <oklofok> dunno
17:40:22 <elliott> nk/0.5
17:42:45 <oklofok> well what makes the question interesting is of course that you can easily find a binary configuration that isn't periodic and you have nk+1 ways to fill each n times k rectangle
17:43:02 <oklofok> but nk - the natural counterpart to the 1d result - is a huge mystery
17:43:24 <oklofok> then again that's math for ya
17:43:36 <oklofok> it's awesome what you gonna do
17:43:40 <elliott> nk/-1
17:43:40 <oklofok> so we're making a game
17:44:11 <oklofok> i can prove it for nk/infinity:
17:44:34 <oklofok> assume the configuration x has nk/infinity = 0 subrectangles of n times k
17:44:41 <oklofok> then it doesn't exist
17:44:43 <oklofok> qed
17:45:07 <Phantom_Hoover> maths
17:46:13 <oklofok> math
17:46:17 <Phantom_Hoover> oh fuck this is going to take forever to read
17:46:36 <oklofok> what is
17:47:21 <Phantom_Hoover> the context to this
17:47:31 <oklofok> well you have all the time in the world
17:47:35 <Phantom_Hoover> no i don't
17:47:36 <oklofok> so how's math going
17:47:51 <Phantom_Hoover> still mostly boring, although geometry stopped and abstract algebra started
17:47:59 <Phantom_Hoover> that's vastly more interesting
17:48:21 <oklofok> abstract algebra is nice yes
17:48:27 <oklofok> we're writing our first algebra paper kinda
17:48:34 <Phantom_Hoover> i'm so far behind on differential equations it's not even funny
17:48:45 <oklofok> i don't know anything about those :/
17:50:08 <Phantom_Hoover> i also haven't listened to an analysis lecture in weeks
17:51:12 <oklofok> i'm only taking one course
17:51:16 <oklofok> on nonstandard analysis
17:52:19 <oklofok> f'(a) = (f(x) - f(a))/(x - a) for x - a infinitely small :-)
17:56:33 <oklofok> this is one of those things for which you need an object you can't describe
17:56:35 <FreeFull> Say f(x) = x²
17:56:37 <oklofok> an ultrafilter
17:57:00 <FreeFull> f'(x) = 2x
17:57:07 <FreeFull> f''(x) = 2
17:57:13 <FreeFull> f'''(x) = 0
17:57:41 <oklofok> nice work, can you do 6x^7 + 3x next?
17:57:47 <kmc> oh FreeFull
17:58:12 <kmc> just because what you say is true does not make it relevant or interesting
17:58:29 <oklofok> i thought it was very amusing
17:58:40 <FreeFull> oklofok: 42x^6 + 3
17:59:08 <kmc> in my experience spontaneous demonstrations of calculus ability are used mainly by drunk freshman attempting to prove that they are not drunk
17:59:26 <oklofok> FreeFull: so far so good
17:59:41 <atriq> I'm better at calculus when drunk. I am so sorted for university.
17:59:48 <kmc> haha
17:59:53 <quintopia> kmc: the problem being that such people usually have atriq's ability
18:00:19 <quintopia> i know a guy whose party trick is drawing accurate political maps of various countries and continents
18:00:29 <quintopia> can do it knock-out drunk
18:01:43 <Phantom_Hoover> i'm shit at calculus sober, i should try it drunk
18:05:37 <FreeFull> Phantom_Hoover: e^x^x
18:05:52 <elliott> wait
18:05:58 <elliott> why did FreeFull give us a bunch of derivatives of x^2
18:06:00 <elliott> i don't get it
18:06:09 <FreeFull> elliott: I was bored
18:06:18 <elliott> ok
18:16:33 <kmc> did you all know the sky is blue?
18:16:39 <kmc> i just thought you should have this information
18:17:12 <elliott> i didn't
18:17:12 <kmc> e^x dx dx, e^y dy
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18:23:11 <quintopia> kmc: if this sentence is a true statement, then the sky is actually reddish-green.
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19:27:51 <elliott> whoa
19:27:54 <elliott> agda has pattern synonyms now
19:27:58 <elliott> cooooooooool
19:29:41 <atriq> elliott, help, I'm writing another ridiculously long Haskell function
19:29:46 <elliott> ok
19:29:47 <elliott> don't
19:29:58 <atriq> I don't know how to don't!
19:30:35 <elliott> don't
19:30:48 <atriq> I can't don't!
19:31:52 <elliott> don't
19:32:45 <Gregor> Why don't, when you can do!
19:33:04 <atriq> Thanks, Gregor
19:33:06 <atriq> Good advice
19:33:31 <elliott> don't
19:34:47 <FreeFull> atriq: Split it up!
19:37:06 <atriq> It looks kind of pretty
19:37:10 <atriq> Like a rope
19:37:13 <atriq> Or a tornado
19:37:28 <atriq> Or Minas Tirith
19:44:26 <fizzie> That tornado is carrying a car.
19:45:19 <coppro> what.
19:45:58 <fizzie> Sonic 2006 quote.
19:46:21 <fizzie> Unless that was an atriq-directed "what.", in which case I concur.
19:49:14 <atriq> I have a warped sense of both beauty and pareidolia, okay?
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20:21:03 <olsner> or, as they say... damned if you do do, damned if you don't don't
20:21:34 <olsner> oh, missed the whole "don't" discussion by about an hour
20:24:58 <tswett> You know, I've been thinking.
20:25:01 <tswett> Homestuck is pretty weird.
20:25:21 <atriq> You... just noticed
20:25:35 <tswett> I've noticed it a couple of times before.
20:25:37 <tswett> I just noticed again.
20:25:54 <elliott> did you know that there is no computable model...
20:25:59 <atriq> For reference, http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=003831
20:26:09 <tswett> There is, in fact, a computable model of the Peano axioms.
20:26:54 <coppro> tswett: hahahahahahahahaha
20:26:57 <elliott> no no, that's not what i meant
20:28:01 <tswett> You meant a computable model of ZFC?
20:28:04 <tswett> Yeah, there isn't one of those.
20:28:07 <tswett> ...I think.
20:29:13 <atriq> tswett, what specifically made you notice that Homestuck is weird
20:29:13 <elliott> nope
20:29:16 <elliott> try again tswett!!!
20:29:18 <elliott> you'll get it eventually
20:29:41 <tswett> A computable model of... the real numbers?
20:29:46 <tswett> I don't think there's one of those, either.
20:30:20 <tswett> atriq: I read a TV Tropes page mentioning that in Homestuck, most of the dialogue takes place via chat programs.
20:31:00 <olsner> there's no computable model of anything!
20:31:10 <elliott> wrong again tswett
20:31:33 <tswett> There is no computable model of NFU?
20:31:35 <kmc> well there's a countable model of the real numbers
20:31:55 <tswett> There's no computable model of, uh...
20:31:59 <tswett> First-order... logic?
20:32:04 <tswett> Second-order logic?
20:32:12 <tswett> Probability theory?
20:32:30 <tswett> Category theory?
20:32:32 <tswett> Physics?
20:32:36 <kmc> love
20:32:47 <tswett> The semantics of Haskell?
20:33:28 <elliott> tswett: nope
20:33:45 <tswett> Gee...
20:33:49 <tswett> Can I have a hint?
20:33:59 <elliott> there is no computable model of a computable set of axioms that uniquely defines the natural numbers
20:34:01 <elliott> because none exists!!
20:34:11 <tswett> Hm...
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20:34:24 <tswett> Yes, that sounds true.
20:34:41 <atriq> tswett, most of my conversations with you take place via chat programs
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20:35:28 <tswett> That also sounds true.
20:36:46 <atriq> Is it that weird, in a modern world, for a significant number of conversations to take place via chat programs?
20:36:50 <atriq> Rather than face to face?
20:37:11 <tswett> No, not really.
20:37:24 <tswett> What is weird is that when people *are* together in person, they never actually speak.
20:37:41 <atriq> Until Act 6 Intermission 1
20:38:04 <atriq> And only if you don't count, for example, John's conversations with Nannasprite
20:38:20 <tswett> I think the carapaced ones may have some actual conversation with each other before that.
20:38:23 <pikhq_> I am certain that I have typed more than I have said.
20:39:04 <tswett> It's just that the conversation is always paraphrased.
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22:01:48 <atriq> Apparently I do not have a microphone now
22:09:39 <kmc> did somebody steal it?
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22:12:18 <zzo38> Is it allowed to update your candidate submission?
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22:12:45 <Vorpal> fizzie, speaking of controllers (well, we were yesterday): quite a few games don't properly handle mixed input devices correctly it appears
22:13:19 <Vorpal> fizzie, with that I mean switching between keyboard, controller or joystick on the fly
22:13:26 <Vorpal> which would make sense in many games
22:19:43 <Vorpal> night →
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22:39:18 <ais523> <Samsung's lawyers> According to Apple, a jury’s damages verdicts are immune from scrutiny so long as they fall “within the range encompassed by the record as a whole,” and the verdicts here fall within that “range” because they are lower than the damages Apple sought.
22:39:27 <ais523> this case has generally been hilarious
22:52:13 <FreeFull> XD
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23:26:25 <kmc> "The GNU Make Standard Library (GMSL) is a collection of functions implemented using native GNU Make functionality that provide list and string manipulation, integer arithmetic, associative arrays, stacks, and debugging facilities."
23:26:38 <Bike> joke?
23:26:44 <kmc> not afaik
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23:37:42 <Bike> «Integers are represented by lists with the equivalent number of x's. For example the number 4 is x x x x.»
23:38:52 <Bike> and memoization and map, too. very functional!
23:39:39 <elliott> Sgeo__'s next language???
23:40:12 <Bike> maybe there's an Ant Standard Library
23:40:32 <kmc> i hope it's named A/S/L
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