00:01:15 <elliott> fizzie: Do you know the TRUE MEANING OF EMPLOYMENT??????
00:02:19 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
00:04:17 <oerjan> EMPLOYMENT IS SLAVERY. WAR IS PEACE. CHEESE IS FUNGUS.
00:04:20 -!- sirdancealot8 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
00:06:58 <Gregor> There is no fungus. There is only Zuul.
00:07:08 <oerjan> är det inte fungal olsner som sitter där borta
00:08:50 <oerjan> http://www.woodland-ways.co.uk/buy-online-gatekeeper-guide-to-common-fungi-598.html
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00:15:04 <olsner> er det ikke en sopp-oerjan som sitter der?
00:15:29 * oerjan wonders if olsner is too young for the reference.
00:16:07 * elliott wonders what the reference is.
00:18:17 <oerjan> a swedish sketch from 1958
00:18:30 <olsner> I am indeed younger than 1958
00:18:45 <olsner> was the sketch even invented back then?
00:19:05 <elliott> was sweden even invented then
00:19:28 <oerjan> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rv-WDb2HSbQ
00:23:11 * oerjan sees "ester" mentioned in the related sidebar, recalls that was funny too. (if you understand swedish. and can imagine a time without cell phones.)
00:25:14 <olsner> esther is a name in english too
00:26:29 <oerjan> 's not relevant to the sketch, though. afair.)
00:27:11 <olsner> is the sketch about how phones are new and people don't really know how to use them?
00:28:00 <oerjan> no, the whole plot just doesn't make sense if the people could have called each other in advance, is all :P
00:44:09 <oerjan> the swedish as such? no.
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02:51:57 <kmc> http://www.floppytable.com/
02:52:02 <kmc> if this were a real floppy disk it would hold... 75 MB
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02:59:52 <Bike> there aren't any scaling issues?
03:05:29 <oerjan> well you need a pretty big scale for it, i'd say
03:15:10 <Sgeo__> "The parsing process in reentrant. Usually the source doesn't change during parsing, but in HTML, script tags containing document.write can add extra tokens, so the parsing process actually modifies the input."
03:15:39 <Sgeo__> How is document.write changing the input to the parser during parsing?
03:26:42 <kmc> document.lol
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03:27:15 <Sgeo__> "www.liceo.edu.mx is an example of a site that achieves a level of nesting of about 1500 tags, all from a bunch of <b>s. We will only allow at most 20 nested tags of the same type before just ignoring them all together."
03:27:48 <Sgeo__> "Support for really broken html. We never close the body tag, since some stupid web pages close it before the actual end of the doc. Let's rely on the end() call to close things."
03:31:05 <Bike> have you not tried html scraping before? (if so I recommend continuing that course of inaction)
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03:35:21 <kmc> http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/Strong-Web-Design.aspx
03:36:38 <kmc> i've used python's BeautifulSoup in the past for web scraping; it is pretty reasonable
03:37:06 <Bike> yeah, but i mean, nobody writes conforming html, there's always a bunch of stupid edge cases
03:37:24 <Bike> and: the dprk's website is now all flash-based. :(
03:37:25 <kmc> i think in the future for any really complicated scraping i will use PhantomJS to launch a real (headless) webkit browser and execute jQuery code in the page's context
03:37:42 <Bike> ...why does that sound reasonable
03:37:54 <Sgeo__> Does the w3c write conforming html?
03:38:31 <Bike> lemme put it this way, sgeo. http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=google.com
03:38:43 <kmc> actually some ajaxy sites are really easy to scrape because you can just make those same queries and get nice json
03:40:20 <Bike> sounds good to me
03:42:37 <Sgeo__> http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org&charset=%28detect+automatically%29&doctype=Inline&group=0&user-agent=W3C_Validator%2F1.3
03:43:49 <Bike> you have penetrated my exaggeration
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04:09:22 <tswett> Whelp, looks like I can still read Finnish about as well as I've ever been able to.
04:09:49 <tswett> I know what "ei" and "se" and "mitä" mean. And "tietää" looks familiar.
04:10:32 <tswett> Here we go, it's "to know (superficially)".
04:15:10 <tswett> Mies, Haluan oppia puhumaan suomea. Minusta se näyttää todella siistiä.
04:15:32 <tswett> Luulen vain pitää oppia joukko sanastoa, ja ehkä myös joitakin kieliopin kun olen sitä.
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04:17:03 <tswett> Tai voisin keksiä omia sanojani, kuten "tarvuolenti".
04:17:26 <tswett> "Tarvuolenti" tekisi hieno suomalainen sana.
04:17:43 <tswett> Laajamittainen kissanpentu dynamiikkaa.
04:40:22 <shachaf> error: expected ‘=’, ‘,’, ‘;’, ‘asm’ or ‘__attribute__’ before ‘asm’
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04:52:09 <Gregor> OK, USPS changed a package's expected delivery date to November 28th… today. That is, they changed the expected delivery date to today, today. Well after it would have been delivered. Bad estimation there, USPS.
04:52:25 <kmc> USPS tracking is a joke
04:52:43 <Bike> was the package delivered today?
04:52:45 <kmc> usually it goes from "we have no knowledge your package exists" straight to "your package was delivered two days ago"
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07:12:24 <Sgeo__> Fiora, oh right, forgot sorry
07:12:33 <Sgeo__> monqy, elliott you too
07:12:45 <monqy> elliott elliott elliott elliott elliott
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08:26:35 <Sgeo__> Trying to define an operation that fits this I forget what it's called:
08:26:46 <Sgeo__> multiplication : addition :: addition : ?
08:26:56 <Sgeo__> Currently playing with ln(e^a + e^b) = a ? b
08:27:14 <Sgeo__> What I would like is a ? a = a + 2
08:29:00 <Sgeo__> (A property of the current definition)
08:29:33 <shachaf> Multiplication is repeated addition, addition is repeated successor.
08:30:08 <Sgeo__> Was hoping for a more binary operator
08:33:06 * Sgeo__ glares. One less .. trivial.
08:37:53 <Sgeo__> I think that my current definition of ? is on some sort of track
08:38:12 <Sgeo__> After all, it is doing an addition operation of some sort when a repeated value is given
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08:40:14 <Sgeo__> And a ? 0 > 0 seems like a reasonable property for it to have, since presumably repeated 0 ? should be 0 + a positive
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08:58:54 <fizzie> https://dl.dropbox.com/u/113389132/Misc/20121129-weather.png oh yes that looks very promising.
09:04:32 <Sgeo__> I thought of a cheap hack
09:05:22 <Sgeo__> a ? b = ln(((e^2)/2)(e^a) + ((e^2)/2)(e^b))
09:05:28 <Sgeo__> Feels like cheating though
09:06:14 <Sgeo__> And I still have no idea whether the bloody thing is associative
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09:08:42 <Sgeo__> n*a ? n*a = a + somefunction(n)
09:09:08 <Sgeo__> Where somefunction is a fixed function that I'm too lazy to work out what it is now
09:09:49 <Sgeo__> Wait, that can't possibly work, I think
09:10:13 <Sgeo__> And by "can't possibly work", I mean "I'm wrong"
09:10:32 <Sgeo__> n * 0 ? n * 0 surely should be the same for all n
09:10:55 <Sgeo__> Yeah, hasty thinking about the na thing
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09:13:16 <fizzie> oklopol: It wasn't *my* graph, it was just stolen from Foreca.
09:13:49 <oklopol> i find them a bit.... two-dimensional
09:14:33 * Sgeo__ throws oklofok into a mathematical space capabable of describing all IRC activity ever across all of time as a single point.
09:14:38 <Sgeo__> Is that enough dimensions for you?
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09:15:26 <fizzie> You can describe all IRC activity ever across all of time as a single real number; I mean, it's just a string.
09:15:53 <oklopol> obviously the underlying field was finite here.
09:15:57 <Sgeo__> Was beginning to realize that :/
09:16:51 <oklopol> Sgeo__ was referring to the vector space F^Z for a finite field F
09:17:43 <oklopol> woohoo i managed to delete 15gb of shit from my hd.
09:17:56 <oklopol> my os is on a 50 gb flash drive thingie whatever
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09:18:48 <oklopol> and i've never realized this but many things in windows are hard-coded to use that particular drive (well you can change them one by one in the registry for some things).
09:19:20 <fizzie> I think SSDs should be called QUANTUM DRIVES.
09:19:23 <oklopol> so the drive was like 80% full right away.
09:19:50 <oklopol> i just realized almost half of that was taken up by windows.old, which is just an old installation of windows that is used for nothing.
09:20:18 <oklopol> the reason i didn't realize that in the 1.5 years i've had this computer is of course that you can't make win7 show you folder sizes
09:21:03 <oklopol> all the user data is inexplicably stored on the os drive
09:22:03 <oklopol> also many shitty programs (like chrome) install on the os drive without asking you.
09:22:15 <fizzie> This is the directory holding stuff about a book authorship machine classification thing we did as a project exercise for T-61.5020 Statistical Natural Language Processing.
09:22:22 <fizzie> One day I should perhaps clean it up.
09:22:34 <oklopol> what kind of an asshole fucking world-rapist doesn't ask you where you wanna install the program?
09:24:42 <oklopol> also how in hell does everything get fucked up if i just *move* a folder, windows knows where i moved it so why can't it just automatically ask if i wanna make a link there so everything works as before!?!?!?
09:25:07 <oklopol> i don't get why everything having to do with computers has to be a piece of shit
09:25:58 <oklopol> well i kind of do get that, it's because programming is so fucking annoying you get bored of doing things right after a few thousand lines of code.
09:26:10 <oklopol> but i love to complain anyways, i guess i'm just a romantic
09:26:55 <oklopol> fizzie: so how's that going for ya?
09:27:13 <oklopol> could you download arxiv and run your classifier on it?
09:27:27 <fizzie> I don't think I "wanna".
09:27:57 <fizzie> Also, I haven't touched the thing since 2008, I'm sure it's rotted away by now.
09:28:00 <oklopol> are you making fun of my typing impediment
09:28:19 <oklopol> also we have some coauthored papers, could we use your thing to check which one actually wrote them?
09:29:13 <oklopol> also i didn't go to work today so i can move. i've been watching himym and ircing.
09:29:14 <fizzie> I suppose, but it's not the good thing. There are several other things around that are better things.
09:29:45 <oklopol> and those more good things that are better things, are those things objectively good things?
09:31:08 <fizzie> I think so, yes. There are papers about those things, whereas our thing was just done for this course and has some dubious design choices. We've on-and-off talked about making a good thing out of it, but it's never happened.
09:31:13 <oklopol> and didn't you run this sorta thing on the #esoteric logs?
09:31:29 <fizzie> I did run it, and it was this same thing.
09:31:38 <fizzie> Or maybe it was something slightly different.
09:31:41 <oklopol> and didn't you run this sorta thing on the #esoteric logs with names changed to the guesses on the right?
09:32:16 <oklopol> could you make a thing where you have #eso logs on the left and logs with names changed to the guesses on the right?
09:32:29 <fizzie> I think I made a confusion matrix of it.
09:32:31 <fizzie> $ ls archive/hut/lktm/data/irc
09:32:31 <fizzie> ais523 augur ehird GregorR oerjan psygnisfive
09:32:31 <fizzie> AnMaster conversation_lengths.txt fizzie lament oklopol SimonRC
09:32:31 <fizzie> asiekierka Deewiant fungot MikeRiley pikhq Slereah
09:32:31 <fungot> fizzie: if these are befunge-93 as they likely are, that may be handy
09:32:37 <fizzie> It certainly looks #esoteric-y.
09:33:17 <oklopol> augur: you skype messaged me the other day
09:33:27 <augur> oklopol: yes i did
09:33:44 <oklopol> nothing, random observation.
09:34:04 <fizzie> ./lktm/doc/figures/girls_on_top.png
09:34:04 <fizzie> ./lktm/doc/figures/boys_on_top.png
09:34:11 <fizzie> These file names are somehow suspicious.
09:34:42 <Deewiant> Yes, they should probably be .jpg.
09:35:14 <oklopol> :! was supposed to be a smiley equivalent to the previous sentence having an exclamation mark but it doesn't really look like that.
09:35:41 <fizzie> Deewiant: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/113389132/Misc/boys_on_top.png https://dl.dropbox.com/u/113389132/Misc/girls_on_top.png They don't mean anything, but they sure look pretty, right?
09:36:20 <Deewiant> They actually look kind of jpeggy even though they're PNGs.
09:36:38 <oklopol> am i supposed to see something other than 404
09:36:54 <oklopol> i copied both links as the url.
09:37:11 <fizzie> Deewiant: Maybe it's that marker/hex shape, it's kind of crummy.
09:37:49 <fizzie> Well, the U-matrix with markers on top.
09:38:34 <fizzie> The U-matrix is the average distance between one node and its neighbours.
09:38:46 <oklopol> fizzie: speaking of you and i being best friends, did i ever mentioned me and my ex discussed having you as the only guest in our wedding
09:39:07 <fizzie> You didn't, and that's kind of weird.
09:40:24 <fizzie> (As for the plots, the blue markers are boys, the red markers are girls, and the green markers are other things.)
09:44:02 <oklopol> if it helps, it's not (only??) because we were hopelessly in love with you but because you were suitably disconnected yet physically reachable and much less mystical, ethereal and dangerous than Deewiant.
09:45:00 <Deewiant> I'm mystical, ethereal, and dangerous?
09:45:18 <Deewiant> I don't have much of an opinion.
09:46:15 <fizzie> Hey I found the confusion matrix, it's at http://zem.fi/~fis/esoconf.png and it's really boring.
09:46:38 <fizzie> It was for some easy classification task and it actually wasn't the same thing as that thing.
09:47:21 <oklopol> well dunno about dangerous, but i find it easier to believe fizzie has a physical essence, perhaps because he has mentioned being in places more.
09:48:45 <oklopol> fizzie: so what about those guess-who-said-it logs?
09:49:12 <fizzie> I don't know, it kind of sounds like work.
09:49:16 <oklopol> also how about an irc client that guesses who said each thing
09:49:27 <fizzie> The game version of it has been suggested a couple of times too.
09:50:12 <oklopol> well is there a version of the program you can send key-value pairs to and when you send a new value it guesses a key based on it? i could write a mirc script to do this then.
09:52:17 <fizzie> The thing as written is an offline thing, you train it with a batch of data. (And individual-line accuracy would be a bit poor, the features are simple statistics and not anything very discriminative.)
09:53:05 <oklopol> you train it with half of what x says and query the other half in one batch or something?
09:53:45 <oklopol> or how can individual-line accuracy be poor if the confusion matrix says i'm never confused with anyone
09:54:02 <oklopol> i guess if someone says "okay" it's a bit hard to tell who it is
09:54:36 <fizzie> I think that plot was with 10-fold cross-validation; train with 9/10s of the data and test with the remaining tenth.
09:54:51 <fizzie> And then average over all ten cases.
09:55:45 <oklopol> is the algo something explainable?
09:56:36 <fizzie> The LKTM thing was a SOM thing, while the esoconf thing was really just a garden-variety SVM classifier.
09:57:13 <fizzie> http://xn--nxa.zem.fi/~fis/esoconfnf.png is a version which apparently used as test material bunched 2000-message snippets, which already makes the statistics far more variable.
09:58:45 <fizzie> http://p.zem.fi/esomap-feats the features; there's nothing really tuned for personal identification
09:59:13 <fizzie> http://xn--nxa.zem.fi/~fis/esomap34n.png how the cross-validation sets look like when projected to 2d.
10:01:34 <oklopol> how can i be close to Deewiant
10:02:03 <oklopol> or does that mean anything since we're not intersecting
10:02:35 <oklopol> i guess vorpal and fizzie win according to that graph
10:02:41 <fizzie> Deewiant: Not for any particular reason. I thought I'd make the paste site URLs "p.zem.fi/X" as opposed to "zem.fi/p/X" for some reason, and β is the dynamic-IP web server laptop at home, I keep all space-wasting useless stuff /~fis/ stuff there since zem.fi doesn't have too much disk space.
10:03:30 <fizzie> oklopol: It is a projection from 60 dimensions to 2, so some of the apparent overlaps could really be quite illusionary.
10:04:09 <oklopol> does png support 60-dimensional pictures?
10:04:28 <fizzie> I don't think it does.
10:04:48 <oklopol> just 2d? that's a bit arbitrary
10:05:12 <shachaf> JPEG is, if I remember correctly, ridiculously general.
10:05:39 <fizzie> Maximum JPEG image size is 65535x65535, that's not very general.
10:06:31 <fizzie> TIFF is, if I recall correctly, also quite general.
10:06:38 <fizzie> TIFF implementations, on the other hand, could be anything but.
10:08:27 <fizzie> (I'd like to know what the "34n" means in the file name of that plot.)
10:09:04 <fizzie> There's also esomap, esomapf, esomapn and esomapnz.
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15:15:44 <hagb4rd2> fizzie: maybe there's an answer to your question among this material. anyway i haven't any information about this magic value while giving it a quick read http://www.awaresystems.be/imaging/tiff/faq.html#q3
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15:23:21 <fizzie> I don't think the "34n" in my "esomap34n.png" PNG file name has anything to do with the TIFF specification, to be honest.
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15:41:02 <elliott> fizzie: how do i get irssi to ping me even if my nick isn't at the start of a sentence
15:41:25 <elliott> I guess /hilight elliott would work, but ew.
15:41:29 <elliott> (And would that catch, e.g. elliott_?)
15:45:00 <nortti> it will also catch blablahblahelliottblahblahblah
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16:14:37 <fizzie> A manual /hilight is I think what people generally do.
16:17:39 <fizzie> If they want to customize, that is, since the default hilight_nick_matches can't really be configurated.
16:19:55 <Mathnerd314> so, does Nile count as an esolang? since nobody outside of VPRI has ever heard of it? or is it just obscure?
16:21:48 <fizzie> Which reminds me, I should probably /hilight -level QUITS -mask fungot!*@* so that I'd notice that better. If it works.
16:21:49 <fungot> fizzie: am i allowed to ask: no. you can patternmatch out the ones you mentioned, and also... check out something like " this subset gives row 3 an 8, 16, 32, 64 ( ordinary machine words).
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16:52:29 <HackEgo> kulymas: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
16:53:30 <kulymas> and this is what happens when I click random stuff on mirc.. lol
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16:55:31 <atriq> Yeah, an esoteric programming language is like a programming language written to be weird in some way
16:55:35 <atriq> Not useful, but weird
16:57:44 <kulymas> but it could be useful in illuding authorities rright?
16:58:03 <atriq> Not saying they can't be useful
16:58:08 <fungot> atriq: to provably shortest possible equivalent code. the css may be a lot of modality in the source and sink of all of the
16:58:17 <atriq> That bot is written in an esoteric programming language
16:58:19 <fungot> http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98
16:58:55 <atriq> fungot, can esoteric programming languages be useful in eluding authorities?
16:58:55 <fungot> atriq: then you just continue the pattern ( ( f text-formatter) name))?
17:00:08 <kulymas> so pretty much like encryption?
17:00:44 <atriq> More like "here's a stupid idea for a programming language, let's push it to the max!"
17:01:48 <kulymas> are there any video games that are programed like this?
17:03:38 <atriq> There was an interactive fiction game in brainfuck
17:05:00 <kulymas> I'd love to speak brainfuck
17:07:08 <kulymas> thanks for the info, I'll come back to this another day. For now, back to java
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17:19:21 <atriq> Not the reeeeeeeeeeplicators!
17:19:59 <Arc_Koen> and not even a single clicking sound all episode
17:26:30 <elliott> fizzie: Why do mentions of my nick in the middle of a line highlight the nick of the person who wrote it differently? :(
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17:28:39 <Arc_Koen> could you tell me what language the interpreter at http://esolangs.org/wiki/MIX is written in?
17:28:59 <atriq> Arc_Koen, Python, it looks like
17:29:22 <Arc_Koen> also, what is the counter, what is the index, and what is mix?
17:29:50 <Arc_Koen> I'm assuming the counter is an instruction pointer that you can modify from flow control
17:30:08 <Arc_Koen> and I'm assuming the index is some kind of data pointer
17:30:27 <Arc_Koen> but there doesn't seem to be a way to access that data
17:32:28 <elliott> 17:31:57 * hackagebot MemoTrie 0.6.1 - Trie-based memo functions http://hackage.haskell.org/package/MemoTrie-0.6.1 (ConalElliott)
17:32:31 <elliott> this line highlights me now :(
17:33:01 <atriq> ConalElliott: Like elliott, but shaped like a cone!
17:33:53 <elliott> atriq: Hey, can you do /me test elliotttest
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17:36:16 <quintopia> you only want to match on \<elliott\> right
17:36:44 <elliott> this behaviour is mostly acceptable since "elliott_:"
17:37:03 <elliott> just annoying that it highlights weirdly for /mes
17:37:12 <elliott> (highlights my nick rather than the nick of the person saying it, unlike normal messages)
17:38:30 <elliott> at least irssi is behaving mostly usably now
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17:43:29 <quintopia> i use the \<quintopia\> type matching in irssi. it works fine. matches in every context that someone uses my full name
17:57:08 <fizzie> elliott: You can give flags (-nick, -word or -line) that control what the hilight looks like. I think -nick should hilight the speaker's name. But I'm not terribly sure; maybe it no work for /me, since -nick is the default anyway.
17:57:52 <elliott> fizzie: I set -nick and it didn't show that it was -nick in the /hilight list
17:57:58 <elliott> so I assumed it dropped it because it's "default"
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19:31:47 <fizzie> https://dl.dropbox.com/u/113389132/Misc/poirot-wtf.png BUT WHAT DOES IT MEAN
19:32:31 <fizzie> Oh, maybe it means Wednesday-Thursday-Friday, as my wife suggests.
19:32:57 <atriq> I'm presuming "CHELSEAN" means Chelsea, roughly
19:33:18 <fizzie> It's "of Chelsea" in this case.
19:33:22 <fizzie> It could also be "Chelsea's".
19:33:34 <atriq> The second word, I have no idea
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19:33:55 <atriq> Oh, that explains that
19:34:23 <fizzie> Maybe "flower exhibition" is closer.
19:34:39 <atriq> Nah, the Chelsea Flower Show is a thing
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19:39:48 <fizzie> For context, YLE (the Finnish national broadcast company) is showing 38 first episodes of the David Suchet Poirot TV show, two/weekend.
19:40:20 <atriq> He was leaning out his window
19:40:31 <atriq> To see if the bread was being made
19:41:39 <fizzie> Yes, that happened too.
19:41:55 <fizzie> Though it was already some weeks ago.
19:42:56 <fizzie> The TV adaptations seem to switch things around quite a bit. I think this Chelsea Flower Show thing was originally a Marple story.
19:43:32 <atriq> ...that's the only Poirot ending I know
19:43:46 <atriq> My gran always flicks because she's seen them before
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19:45:02 <fizzie> I've seen these before a long enough time ago that I don't remember them; but I've reread them more recently. At least there's the "let's see how much they changed" element of surprise, though.
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19:47:43 <atriq> elliott, did you start the fortress yet?
19:47:58 <elliott> ping me later at night and I will
19:48:13 <atriq> But later at night I'll be asleep!
19:49:05 <Phantom_Hoover> never go to sleep the day before you intend to wake up
19:49:24 <elliott> i feel as if Phantom_Hoover is mocking me
19:52:49 <atriq> elliott sleeps on a cycle of weeks, not hours
19:53:00 <fizzie> The lion sleeps tonight.
19:53:12 <atriq> fizzie, but that's in the jungle!
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20:06:08 <atriq> You heard him, ais523
20:08:09 <Arc_Koen> random thought: befunge with the additional constraint that instructions that have already been executed are treated as no-ops
20:08:37 <Arc_Koen> so you'd have to replicate using g and p or something
20:09:02 <atriq> Consider that it takes at least one step to write one cell
20:09:05 <Arc_Koen> I've seen a Befunge-93 program which replicated itself six times
20:09:13 <Arc_Koen> well it did have intern loops to do that replication
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20:09:27 <Arc_Koen> yeah ok that's a pretty good argument
20:09:35 <atriq> So, as that's the ABSOLUTE MAXIMUM
20:09:51 <atriq> You're going to be destroying instructions faster than you can generate them
20:10:14 <Arc_Koen> soon there'll be a negative amount of instructions!
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20:10:58 <Arc_Koen> ok so I've got to think about another way to limit flow control
20:11:24 <Arc_Koen> that would make self-modification necessary and not just as data storage
20:11:54 <Arc_Koen> wait, I actually wonder how Befunge can ever be tc
20:12:04 <Arc_Koen> if the size of integers on the stack is bounded
20:12:25 <Arc_Koen> then p and g can only access cells which are in the boundaries
20:12:38 <Arc_Koen> even if you take the 80*25 limitation out
20:12:50 <Arc_Koen> well I guess I should take a better look at funge-98
20:13:06 <Arc_Koen> (but not before sheppard saves the galaxy once or twice)
20:15:00 <Arc_Koen> last sg-1 episode they flied to atlantis, blew up a wraith ship, accidentally destroying an invincible ori ship from the other galaxy in the process
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20:15:43 <Arc_Koen> that's gotta be a supervillain team-down or something
20:16:09 <Arc_Koen> and then last atlantis episode there were REPLICATORS
20:16:19 <Arc_Koen> it's so great my lines have started to sync!
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20:54:16 * oerjan just realized a simple solution for broken html in websites
20:54:38 <nortti> care about sharing it with us?
20:54:44 <oerjan> all we have to do is convince google to, like, halve their page rank.
20:55:08 <oerjan> *poof* nearly all get corrected.
20:55:23 <nortti> does google pass html validator?
21:09:09 -!- rapido has joined.
21:10:57 <rapido> I've invoked the wrath of the mathematicians with the following esoteric statement: "let's get rid of zero!"
21:11:13 <rapido> see: http://scientopia.org/blogs/goodmath/2012/11/27/lets-get-rid-of-zero/
21:11:34 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
21:11:38 -!- oerjan has kicked rapido rapido.
21:11:46 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan.
21:13:52 <Bike> «An Account is balanced when Debit and Credit are equal. Such a balanced Account can be interpreted as (being in the equivalence class of) a zero but we won’t.» beautiful
21:17:12 <kmc> what's the history here
21:18:01 <Phantom_Hoover> idiot invents new number system, acts like he's fixed some glaring flaw in arithmetic
21:19:11 <kmc> no i mean what did rapido do here before
21:19:27 <kmc> if being a crackpot were a crime in #esoteric then surely the channel would be empty
21:20:10 <HackEgo> 2011-04-20.txt:21:50:49: <rapido> and you define a function that takes x^x - it is still finite - but slow
21:22:44 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.20529
21:23:21 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
21:23:30 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan.
21:23:56 <elliott> i demand oerjan remains op
21:24:01 <Bike> «<rapido> pikhq: i don't see it as a problem - i see it as a opportunity» i like this guy a lot
21:27:13 <pikhq_> Goodness, that guy was fun. Terrible, but fun.
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21:29:43 <rapido> anyone ever considered the factoradic number system?
21:30:41 <oerjan> rapido: depends what you mean by factoradic
21:31:01 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: it's a swedish word. the domain is nauru in the pacific, iirc
21:32:12 <rapido> i'm a Dutch finitist: all this started with Brouwer of course
21:32:49 <rapido> of course lazy evaluation if not very finitist
21:34:41 <oerjan> well lazy evaluation is approximately codata, codata is constructive, does that mean it's also finitist?
21:35:08 <rapido> oerjan: hmm, but what about lazy infinite lists?
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21:35:43 <rapido> i'm still struggling with the evaluation model
21:35:44 <oerjan> rapido: that's codata. you can ask to get any finite index, and that can be finite to compute.
21:36:22 <rapido> yeah, i read about that - i don't really grasp it
21:36:58 <oerjan> codata means you can always go one level deeper in finite time, or approximately so.
21:37:05 <elliott> oerjan: well if you are finitist enough then the set of indices is finite.
21:37:32 <elliott> oerjan: that wasn't a joke...
21:37:40 <rapido> i think codata are actually streams
21:37:42 <rapido> see: http://www.cs.ox.ac.uk/ralf.hinze/publications/CEFP09.pdf
21:37:54 <rapido> is that a correct assumption?
21:37:55 <elliott> more like streams are a type of codata...
21:39:44 <rapido> Phantom_Hoover: "thus it's bullshit, amirite?" - no, i didn't give it the thought that it needs
21:40:29 <rapido> elliott: i'm all for stream algebras: how do they match with codata?
21:41:55 -!- Bike has quit (Quit: Lost terminal).
21:42:02 <rapido> or are codata more general than streams?
21:42:29 <oerjan> an infinite binary tree is also codata, for example
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21:45:54 <rapido> oerjan: a stream of ever growing binary trees?
21:46:52 <oerjan> i guess you could encode it that way.
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21:48:30 <oerjan> there's probably always a way to encode things as a stream if you make the encoding convoluted enough.
21:49:19 <kmc> big ass power outage in my neighborhood
21:49:28 <kmc> the power went out at work and everyone was like "... guess i'll go home now"
21:50:13 <rapido> anyone willing to give me an esoteric idea on a number system that really rocks?
21:50:40 <olsner> rapido: like using pi or e as the base?
21:51:16 <rapido> something like that yes!
21:51:46 <rapido> factorial numbers have a mixed base
21:52:14 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
21:52:18 <rapido> so numbers are boring?
21:52:43 -!- Bike has joined.
21:53:07 <atriq> Base Ulysses S Grant
21:54:11 <rapido> aha, getting more interesting
21:54:31 <Bike> quater-imaginary's pretty neat, though probably old hat in the doubtless thriving Weird Number Representations community
21:55:25 <atriq> Phantom_Hoover, been done
21:56:11 <oerjan> shouldn't have needed to calculate it, in fact.
21:56:27 <rapido> octonions with an quartenion base and beyond!
21:57:17 <Bike> sedenions are the future
21:57:18 <rapido> (i'll drop the exclamation marks, they look silly)
21:58:21 <Phantom_Hoover> i prefer the 32ions because they are totally algebraically uninteresting
21:58:49 <rapido> yeah, they look rather not working
21:59:05 <Bike> but they aren't power associative, so i don't think using them as radices would work well (ha)
21:59:25 <rapido> Bike: that's a good one!
21:59:39 <kmc> they form a non-associative semicategory
21:59:41 <rapido> oops, exclamation mark - sorry
22:00:11 <Bike> what's a good one
22:00:24 <rapido> "but they aren't power associative, so i don't think using them as radices would work well (ha)"
22:03:27 <elliott> challenge: come up with a structure that doesn't form a category (VERY HARD)
22:03:45 <atriq> elliott, Stonehenge?
22:04:25 <Bike> what are the arrows of the category of dendrites
22:04:44 <atriq> Thoughts about arrows
22:05:35 <Bike> oh wow whoops i was almost taking this seriously for a second.
22:06:04 <atriq> About 80% of what I say is intended as a joke
22:06:10 <atriq> Including that, and this.
22:07:52 <rapido> the joke language that takes itself seriously for 80%
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22:32:20 <pikhq_> When umount blocks for no reason.
22:32:58 <Vorpal> pikhq_, there are certain parameters to it that may help you
22:33:06 <Vorpal> pikhq_, also I presume you checked lsof?
22:33:21 <Vorpal> (or fuser, whichever you prefer)
22:33:44 <monqy> elliott: have you still not started the succession game....
22:33:45 <Vorpal> pikhq_, try umount -r ?
22:34:20 <Vorpal> or umount -f if it is a network filesystem
22:34:41 <Vorpal> pikhq_, also umount -l might work for you
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22:35:11 <Phantom_Hoover> before you say you have no idea how to play df: neither does elliott!
22:35:28 <monqy> elliott seems to have more of an idea than i do!!
22:37:34 <elliott> I already asked monqy to join
22:38:52 <monqy> how fast does it grind to a halt
22:39:23 <monqy> as in memory leakage wise
22:42:09 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: mummy ice elementalist
22:42:17 <elliott> monqy: it has limited memory use so it just GC-pauses
22:43:45 <monqy> expert musu play here
22:44:25 <elliott> monqy: have you guessed the AI rule
22:44:27 <elliott> hint: it's simpler than it looks
22:44:42 <monqy> it's sort of hard with how often it pauses
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22:53:36 <oerjan> boily chickens out again
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23:12:10 <rapido> time relatively flies when you're having fun
23:12:39 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: that's what night means
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23:13:42 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: btw i'm thinking of banning dfhack use :,)
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23:14:32 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: what if i force you to termcast the terminal running dfhcak
23:14:42 <elliott> and if you type in any commands
23:14:45 <elliott> i make a new brainfuck derivative
23:16:37 -!- rapido has quit (Quit: rapido).
23:17:03 <elliott> this is why you cannot be trusted
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23:58:26 <Arc_Koen> "In Mascarpone, an interpreter is a map that takes symbols to operations, and an operation is a sequence of symbols that is given meaning by some interpreter.
23:58:26 <Arc_Koen> Of course, this is a circular definition, but that doesn't seem unreasonable"
23:58:37 <Arc_Koen> well Ocaml doesn't seem to agree
23:59:37 <oerjan> circular type? just add a datatype definition for symbol i assume...