←2012-12-10 2012-12-11 2012-12-12→ ↑2012 ↑all
00:00:10 * oerjan blinks
00:00:25 <oerjan> `date
00:00:25 <elliott> `locale
00:00:27 <HackEgo> ​二 12月 11 00:00:26 UTC 2012
00:00:29 <elliott> Gregor...................
00:00:29 <elliott> `ls
00:00:30 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ egobot.tar.xz \ foo \ interps \ karma \ lib \ paste \ quotes \ share \ wisdom \ zalgo \ zalgo.hi \ zalgo.hs \ zalgo.o
00:00:34 <elliott> `gcc
00:00:38 <HackEgo> gcc: no input files
00:00:44 <FireFly> `? välkommen
00:00:47 <HackEgo> välkommen Hej och välkommen till den internationella knutpunkten för design och distribution av esoteriska programspråk! För mer information, se vår wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (För den andra sortens esoterism, pröva #esoteric på irc.dal.net.)
00:00:51 <Gregor> Darn, guess I'll have to install the locale files for gcc!
00:00:54 <FireFly> ok.
00:01:15 <oerjan> FireFly: um should that first word be there?
00:01:22 <FireFly> Don't ask me
00:01:24 <elliott> `rm wisdom/välkommen
00:01:25 <FireFly> I didn't add it
00:01:26 <elliott> malformed
00:01:28 <HackEgo> No output.
00:02:50 <oerjan> elliott hates swedish, clearly
00:03:01 <Gregor> `words --swedish 50
00:03:03 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
00:03:05 <HackEgo> mationel omspellet oordrin paschef byggorna vintränas avtalls duellt förmer systationat vidualera ten efter bakplatselet dånadegra skadespens omvänden örordnarna abordningar iakonia skockens munikat bedräggnit derna råddar
00:03:36 <hagb4rd> yes, he's not in the best mood today
00:04:07 <oerjan> oh right hm
00:04:12 <FireFly> `which words
00:04:14 <HackEgo> ​/hackenv/bin/words
00:04:37 <zzo38> You could, instead of trying UTF-8 or not, make it an option whether it is UTF-8 or whether it is single-byte encoding.
00:05:09 <oerjan> `echo "Hej och välkommen till den internationella knutpunkten för design och distribution av esoteriska programspråk! För mer information, se vår wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (För den andra sortens esoterism, pröva #esoteric på irc.dal.net.)" >wisdom/välkommen
00:05:10 <HackEgo> ​"Hej och välkommen till den internationella knutpunkten för design och distribution av esoteriska programspråk! För mer information, se vår wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (För den andra sortens esoterism, pröva #esoteric på irc.dal.net.)" >wisdom/välkommen
00:05:14 <oerjan> oops
00:05:16 <oerjan> `run echo "Hej och välkommen till den internationella knutpunkten för design och distribution av esoteriska programspråk! För mer information, se vår wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (För den andra sortens esoterism, pröva #esoteric på irc.dal.net.)" >wisdom/välkommen
00:05:19 <HackEgo> No output.
00:05:25 <oerjan> `? välkommen
00:05:27 <HackEgo> Hej och välkommen till den internationella knutpunkten för design och distribution av esoteriska programspråk! För mer information, se vår wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (För den andra sortens esoterism, pröva #esoteric på irc.dal.net.)
00:05:45 <fizzie> oerjan: You should make a combined SE/NO/DK welcome, like they have in shampoo bottles and the like.
00:05:57 <oerjan> ooh
00:06:28 <oerjan> ...or not.
00:07:06 <Gregor> `date
00:07:09 <HackEgo> Tue Dec 11 00:07:08 UTC 2012
00:07:12 <Gregor> Piff
00:07:14 <Gregor> `locale
00:07:19 <HackEgo> locale: Cannot set LC_CTYPE to default locale: No such file or directory \ locale: Cannot set LC_MESSAGES to default locale: No such file or directory \ locale: Cannot set LC_ALL to default locale: No such file or directory \ LANG=fi.UTF-8 \ LANGUAGE= \ LC_CTYPE="fi.UTF-8" \ LC_NUMERIC="fi.UTF-8" \ LC_TIME="fi.UTF-8" \ LC_COLLATE="fi.UTF-8" \ LC_MO
00:07:27 <Gregor> Oh dear X-D
00:07:39 <oerjan> fäncyssä
00:07:50 <Gregor> Not sure why that didn't work.
00:08:10 <Gregor> Oh, duh.
00:08:11 <Gregor> `date
00:08:12 <HackEgo> ti 11.12.2012 00.08.12 +0000
00:08:17 <Gregor> There we go.
00:08:24 <Gregor> Now the vast majority of the channel should be happy.
00:08:29 <Gregor> `run echo fail > /fail
00:08:31 <HackEgo> bash: /fail: Lupa evätty
00:08:38 <elliott> ti
00:08:41 <oerjan> tuesday starts with "ti" in finnish?
00:08:54 <fizzie> oerjan: Tiistai.
00:09:17 <fizzie> Maanantai, tiistai, keskiviikko, torstai, perjantai, lauantai, sunnuntai.
00:09:38 <fizzie> (Wed is literally "middleweek".)
00:09:45 <FireFly> As in german, then
00:10:12 <pikhq> oerjan: Praise be to Tyr's Day!
00:10:52 <hagb4rd> päivämäärä
00:10:57 <pikhq> Though personally I'm quite looking forward to Odin's Day.
00:11:02 <hagb4rd> the only word i know in finnish
00:11:37 <hagb4rd> hope it was right this time
00:11:50 <oerjan> google did not complain
00:11:56 <fizzie> `ls q
00:11:57 <FireFly> I like Freyja's day personally
00:11:57 <HackEgo> ls: tiedostoa q ei voi käsitellä: Tiedostoa tai hakemistoa ei ole
00:12:08 <fizzie> I like this locale.
00:12:22 <pikhq> FireFly: It is a good day.
00:12:39 <hagb4rd> fizzie: how to ask a girl for a 'date'
00:12:59 <FireFly> Huh, it seems that's not the actual etymology of friday
00:13:08 <FireFly> I'm pretty sure I've been taught that it is at one point
00:13:45 <pikhq> It's actually Frigg.
00:14:23 -!- micahjoh1ston has changed nick to micahjohnston.
00:14:38 <FireFly> Apparently some argue that Frigg and Freyja might be the same goddess
00:18:07 <hagb4rd> according to a german source frigg was the wife of odin.. not the same as freyja.. though both are associated with marriage
00:19:11 <kmc> fizzie: how does the combined SE/NO/DK text work?
00:20:10 <oerjan> half-heartedly, usually
00:24:29 -!- lambdabot has joined.
00:25:30 <kmc> no christmas without christ, no thursday without thor
00:26:00 <Gregor> `addquote <kmc> no christmas without christ, no thursday without thor
00:26:04 <HackEgo> 864) <kmc> no christmas without christ, no thursday without thor
00:26:05 <kmc> by vectron's beard!
00:26:10 <oerjan> Hej/Hei och/og välkommen/velkommen till/til den/det internationella/internasjonale/internationale knutpunkten/knutepunktet/knudepunkt för/for design och/og distribution/distribusjon av esoteriska/esoteriske programspråk/programmeringsspråk/programmeringssprog! För/for mer information/informasjon, se vår/vores wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (För/for den andra/andre/anden sortens/typen/sort esoterism/esoterisme, pröva/prøv #esoteric
00:26:32 <FireFly> Something like that, yeah
00:26:36 <oerjan> (danish may contain errors)
00:27:20 <oerjan> på irc.dal.net.)
00:27:23 <kmc> most of those triplets are so close, why bother?
00:27:40 <oerjan> precisely! sometimes they don't.
00:27:40 <Gregor> They're all just English with a funny accent, why bother?
00:27:55 <kmc> it seems like reading NO if you know SE should be no harder than reading EN youtube comments if you know non-idiot EN
00:27:59 <hagb4rd> kmc: mostly because they are so close ;)
00:28:19 <kmc> they should just take the coolest looking word from each triplet
00:28:31 <kmc> are there any amusing false cognates between these languages?
00:28:34 <shachaf> kmc: You're just not watching the right videos.
00:28:49 <fizzie> Sometimes it seems they bother with och/og but not when it comes to long words.
00:29:39 <oerjan> kmc: no:pule = en:fuck, sv:pula = en: er, does anyone know a word for that...
00:29:53 <fizzie> "Dit hår er skadet og slidt/slitt/slitet", starts this "DK/N/S" shampoo bottle.
00:30:20 <oerjan> fizzie: "Dit" is wrong for norwegian :P
00:30:31 <oerjan> "og" is wrong for swedish.
00:30:51 <oerjan> "er" also wrong for swedish, i think
00:30:55 <fizzie> "Det har mistet/förlorat sit naturlige cement, som giver/ger håret styrke og smidighed."
00:31:04 <fizzie> Yes, it's all kind of lazy.
00:31:40 <fizzie> "Hårets overflade/yta bliver glat/slät og glansfuld."
00:32:29 <kmc> they should print one language in red and the other in blue and then everyone in school gets a bit of cellophane of the appropriate color
00:32:41 <fizzie> "Fordel shampooen i fugtigt hår, massér/massera, og skyl ud/skölj ur."
00:32:52 <oerjan> kmc: also NO and DK are closer to read than SE, usually. while DK is far away in pronunciation...
00:33:28 <FireFly> kmc: reading NO is probably easier tahn reading three languages intertwined
00:33:37 <FireFly> than*
00:33:43 <kmc> interesting
00:33:48 <hagb4rd> isn't it symptomatic for similar cultures (neighbours devided by some historical reasons for example) that they often look for its own identity by cultivating these small differences? dunno, but these phenomena are found not only on national but almost every level ..
00:34:20 <kmc> also isn't norwegian actually two languages
00:34:46 <oerjan> hagb4rd: see: serbian, bosnian and croation, which afaiu are even closer than the scandinavian languages
00:34:54 <hagb4rd> regions, districts,..yes.. even lovers shit
00:34:55 <FireFly> I think there's two written forms but only one spoken?
00:34:57 <hagb4rd> yea
00:34:59 * FireFly checks
00:35:05 <kmc> i see
00:35:18 <kmc> "Serbo-Croatian is the only European language with active digraphia, using both Cyrillic and Latin alphabets. The Bosnian and Serbian varieties use both alphabets while the Croatian variety uses only the Latin alphabet"
00:35:22 <kmc> yuppppp
00:35:22 <oerjan> kmc: no one bothers with including nynorsk in these multiple translations :P
00:35:41 <FireFly> Nynorsk is the one that's closer to old norse, right?
00:35:58 <oerjan> slightly closer, perhaps.
00:36:16 <kmc> http://www.e-allmoney.com/coins/eur/img/1bos2YAcnbra00.gif
00:37:12 <kmc> 2 convertible mark coin
00:38:28 <oerjan> Hei og velkomne til det internasjonale knutepunktet for design og distribusjon av esoteriske programmeringsspråk! For meir informasjon, sjå wikien vår: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For den andre sorten esoterisme, prøv #esoteric på irc.dal.net.)
00:38:58 <kmc> bosna i hercegovina / босна и херцеговина
00:39:34 <oerjan> (you may now play "spot the difference")
00:40:27 -!- Gregor has set topic: Keskustelu käyttäen Itä-Euroopan kieliä. | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
00:40:31 <oerjan> (mind you there _could_ be errors, nynorsk isn't my main writing form)
00:41:08 <FireFly> Okay, I couldn't tell it from bokmål I think :p
00:41:20 <oerjan> if it were, i would probably use a bit other words for flavor
00:45:32 <Sgeo|web> @ping
00:45:32 <lambdabot> pong
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00:47:14 <oerjan> <FireFly> I think there's two written forms but only one spoken? <-- the spoken situation is far more complicated, as dialects are generally _more_ prestigious than a pronunciation normalized to either writing form. afaict, even the television presenters no longer always normalize.
00:47:21 -!- sebbu has joined.
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00:47:40 <oerjan> at least not fully.
00:47:49 <FireFly> Oh, that sounds tricky
00:47:59 <oerjan> and there's not really an "official" pronunciation, iirc
00:48:50 <oerjan> the nynorsk movement had this slogan "Speak dialect, write nynorsk" of which the norwegian people took only the first part :P
00:50:03 -!- Sgeo|web has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
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00:50:44 <elliott> :t IM.mapWithKey
00:50:46 <lambdabot> (IM.Key -> a -> b) -> IM.IntMap a -> IM.IntMap b
00:51:37 <kmc> that's interesting
00:51:43 <kmc> some languages take that to an extreme
00:51:54 <kmc> like chinese and arabic
00:52:06 <kmc> (if chinese even counts as one language)
00:52:29 <Bike> arabic doesn't count as one language either, i don't think
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00:53:12 <oerjan> there is "modern standard arabic", which is probably not the local language anywhere?
00:54:15 <hagb4rd> kmc: in china there was basically mandarin and.. i forgot the second one
00:54:19 <kmc> my understanding is that in both cases, there is a mutually intelligible sub-language which people can use but is not the default anywhere
00:54:26 <kmc> in chinese it's only a written language and not spoken
00:54:26 <Bike> there's cantonese and wu and a few others
00:54:29 <Bike> and yeah, there's a word for it
00:54:32 <kmc> "Shoppers at a furniture store in Toronto, Canada, were shocked to find a monkey dressed in a sheepskin jacket on the loose in the car park."
00:54:39 <Bike> tht pattern, i mean
00:54:59 <kmc> dunno if you all saw http://idlewords.com/2011/08/why_arabic_is_terrific.htm
00:55:00 <Bike> oh, 'diglossia'
00:55:09 <Bike> which also mentions norwegian, gosh.
00:56:04 <kmc> oh dear, the arabic on that page no longer renders correctly for me :(
00:57:08 <kmc> looks like double UTF8 encoding :( :( :(
00:57:59 <kmc> whenever you screw up character encodings, god kills a japanese kitten
00:59:05 <hagb4rd> `locale
00:59:20 <hagb4rd> welly welly well
01:00:27 <kmc> must report bug
01:02:05 <elliott> kmc: Gregor is killing kittens right now then
01:18:24 <ion> LC_MESSAGES=fi_FI.UTF-8 is great. “Esiräätälöidään paketteja”
01:18:30 -!- TodPunk has quit (Quit: This is me, signing off. Probably rebooting or something.).
01:19:01 <ion> Too bad some of the people won’t understand just how horrible that translation of “preconfiguring packages” is.
01:19:20 <ion> Finnish translations of UIs tend to be abhorrent.
01:19:30 <kmc> how can it be horrible when it contains five ä's?
01:19:51 <kmc> what would you say the meaning of that phrase is in english?
01:20:07 <hagb4rd> it's almost impossible to unify the layout isn't it?
01:20:52 <hagb4rd> experienced the same problem while trying to create unified reports for 16 languages
01:20:59 <ion> “Pretailoring packages” would be the direct translation, but that loses the badness of the phrase in Finnish again.
01:26:10 <kmc> codepage 1252 strikes again!
01:26:10 <hagb4rd> i still wonder how finnish could develop in such a uniqe way.. are they any natural borders to the neighbours? oceans? mountains? trolls?
01:27:03 <hagb4rd> there must be a simpler explanation
01:27:35 <kmc> echo مكتبة | iconv -f cp1252
01:27:36 <hagb4rd> must admit i do not know much about the finnish history
01:28:00 <kmc> it is kind of related to hungarian and estonian right
01:28:06 <kmc> hungarian is crazier though
01:28:32 -!- TeruFSX has joined.
01:28:36 <kmc> maybe it's just seeing it next to swedish everywhere, but finnish seems to be closer to its neighbors
01:29:06 <hagb4rd> really?
01:29:20 <hagb4rd> have to read more on this
01:29:22 <kmc> in my unscientific opinion yes
01:30:06 <kmc> swedish is a germanic language, so not entirely alien to me as an english speaker
01:30:16 <kmc> and the finnish words on signs seemed to be reasonably close to the swedish words much of the time
01:30:30 <kmc> whereas in hungary it seemed as though somebody has written total gibberish on everything
01:30:52 <ion> I think Hungarian and Finnish have split a very long time ago, there’s nothing recognizable in the other to a novice that knows one of them. OTOH, Estonian sounds very similar to Finnish (although you generally can’t understand the words).
01:32:11 <hagb4rd> yes, studying the history would be a good point to start i guess
01:32:34 * Gregor wipes the blood from his hands.
01:32:41 <Gregor> Now that I'm done killing kittens, let's fix this shit.
01:32:59 <elliott> `locale
01:33:04 <elliott> Gregor: YO A REASONABLE LOCALE PLZ
01:33:39 <Gregor> elliott: I chose a locale appropriate to the majority of the channel, what's the issue?
01:33:44 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
01:34:06 <oerjan> ei issuaa
01:34:11 -!- sebbu has joined.
01:34:28 <ion> `date
01:34:30 <HackEgo> ti 11.12.2012 01.34.29 +0000
01:35:00 -!- TodPunk has joined.
01:35:32 <ion> `date +%c
01:35:33 <HackEgo> ti 11. joulukuuta 2012 01.35.33
01:36:55 <Gregor> `WELCOME elliott
01:38:43 <Gregor> `date
01:38:44 <HackEgo> Tue Dec 11 01:38:44 UTC 2012
01:38:48 <Gregor> JUST to make you stop complaining.
01:39:21 <elliott> Gregor: Um...
01:39:25 <elliott> Gregor: I'm not going to stop complaining
01:39:35 <Gregor> +about that
01:42:07 <elliott> Gregor: should I optimise UMLBox
01:42:19 <Gregor> Probably?
01:42:24 <elliott> "If a user accomplishes a root escalation from within a UMLBox jail, they escalate only to the privileges of the user who ran umlbox, not true root."
01:42:32 <elliott> I like the idea that this would stop someone who *already has a root escalation exploit*
01:42:39 <elliott> (OK, you could have setuid programs inside the jail)
01:42:47 <Gregor> Yeah, it depends on how the exploit is done.
01:43:01 <Gregor> If they're different versions of Linux, or depend on being able to modify something they can't on the host, or...
01:43:17 <Gregor> There's lots of reasons why an exploit might not work.
01:43:27 <elliott> Gregor: How fast is the mudem stuff
01:43:44 <Gregor> Slow but irrelevant, HackEgo isn't using it.
01:43:51 -!- SingingBoyo has joined.
01:44:07 <elliott> oh, it isn't?
01:44:12 <Gregor> No.
01:44:15 <elliott> why does it exist then
01:44:23 <Gregor> For the luls?
01:44:41 <Gregor> It was a "feature" of plash I felt obligated to replicate.
01:44:46 <Gregor> Never really succeeded though.
01:44:54 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
01:45:13 <elliott> I forget what it's even for
01:45:17 <elliott> oh, X forwarding?
01:45:21 <Gregor> Yeah.
01:45:26 <Gregor> And TCP forwarding if you'd like.
01:45:47 <elliott> does it work for X
01:45:57 <Gregor> It did last time I tested it *shrugs*
01:47:26 <elliott> Gregor: hey couldn't you profile this stuff using the oprofile stuff
01:47:32 -!- ion has set topic: Keskustelu käyttäen Itä-Euroopan kieliä. | Kanavan otsikko mainitsee Hitlerin ilman erityistä syytä. | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
01:48:45 <Gregor> Maybe...
01:48:48 -!- nooga has joined.
01:48:57 <Gregor> I know that google perftools just barfs all over the place :)
01:50:45 <elliott> well oprofile is fancy and kernel-level
01:50:49 <elliott> I don't know how it works though
01:50:59 <elliott> what if you reduced the nice to something less than -n10, would that help at all
01:51:02 <elliott> I guess it would be sort of bad
01:52:03 <Gregor> It's not like I have other shit running at some other nice level.
01:53:45 <elliott> mm
01:53:50 <Gregor> `echo hi
01:53:50 <HackEgo> 1355190830.35
01:53:51 <HackEgo> 1355190831.01
01:53:51 <HackEgo> 1355190831.19
01:53:51 <HackEgo> hi
01:53:57 <Gregor> hg status is almost instantaneous.
01:54:03 <Gregor> umlbox takes almost a second.
01:54:05 <elliott> Nice "profiling"
01:54:05 <Gregor> So yeah.
01:54:08 <Gregor> ^^
01:54:26 <elliott> I think UMLBox is pretty inherently slow
01:54:44 <elliott> Gregor: What if you did a trick to keep the same UMLBox running as long as hg status says nothing has changed?
01:54:48 <elliott> should be semantically equivalent
01:55:12 <Gregor> It's a nice theory, but the whole stack is just SO not configured to do that >_>
01:55:25 <elliott> Doesn't sound that hard
01:55:29 <elliott> UMLBox forwards stdin, right?
01:55:41 <Gregor> Oh, heh.
01:56:11 <Gregor> 'course then there's an issue of "how much of this output is my output"
01:56:12 <elliott> So you just need to run while read; do timelimit ...; done
01:56:13 <elliott> or whatever
01:56:31 <elliott> Gregor: have it forward an extra fd that you just echo "done" to or such
01:56:34 <elliott> or wait
01:56:35 <elliott> I don't get the problem
01:56:49 <Gregor> I send a command, it has no output. How do I know when it's done?
01:57:01 <Gregor> I send a command, it has 30MB of output. How do I know when it's done?
01:57:28 <elliott> Right, you need to echo "done" to another channel... in fact you can just use stderr, assuming UMLBox forwards that separately
01:57:32 <elliott> (and 2>&1 the commands themselves)
01:57:39 <Gregor> Echoing to another channel is a terrible idea.
01:57:44 <Gregor> Synchronicity problems.
01:58:04 <elliott> Gregor: OK: buffer the output inside the loop, once all the output is written, write the length of the output to the additional channel.
01:58:18 <elliott> The reading code sends the stuff to run, reads a length from the side-channel, reads those bytes.
01:58:30 <Gregor> Hmm
01:58:32 <Gregor> Fair 'nuff
01:58:52 <elliott> Whenever a write happens, you kill the whole thing and run stuff separately
01:58:54 <elliott> like normal
01:59:37 <elliott> (Note that this means that if you run two writers and a reader at once, the reader may experience inconsistent state (because the two overwriters overwrite each other))
01:59:56 <elliott> (You'd have to make sure the reader's output isn't sent before rerunning stuff, but that's just basic transactionality anyway)
02:00:04 <elliott> Sounds easier than rearchitecturing anything at least
02:00:09 <elliott> s/anything/everything/
02:00:14 <Gregor> It is rearchitecting X-D
02:00:29 <elliott> Probably less so than whatever you were thinking of :P
02:00:33 <elliott> It'd be super-mega-fast, anyway
02:00:40 <kmc> bug reported
02:00:47 <elliott> what bug
02:01:54 <kmc> bad character encoding on http://idlewords.com/2011/08/why_arabic_is_terrific.htm
02:02:20 <kmc> take UTF-8 and interpret each byte as a character in Windows-1252 and then encode to UTF-8 again and that's what you get
02:02:31 <Gregor> I also think that rerunning commands is probably a waste of time more often than not. I could send the original output eagerly, then resend iff it's different.
02:02:47 <Gregor> Err
02:02:48 <pikhq> kmc: How do you fuck up like that?
02:02:57 <Gregor> That waiting for output from rerunning is a waste of time.
02:03:04 <elliott> That would be completely awful
02:03:04 <Gregor> Lemme put it differently: I should output before even checking.
02:03:23 <Gregor> pikhq: ¡!¡!¡!¡!¡!
02:03:27 <elliott> How about go for the 90% speed increase you get from not rerunning UMLBox and forget about an abomination like that :P
02:03:34 <Gregor> ^^
02:03:53 <elliott> Maybe I'll write it to not rerun UMLBox if I can get HackEgo working here
02:04:10 <Gregor> elliott: At this point it should be near-trivial to get HackEgo running...
02:04:18 <elliott> I think that is what you said last time too
02:04:31 <elliott> Walk me through it :P
02:04:48 <Gregor> Build multibot, install socat, edit runner.sh to your needs, ./runner.sh
02:05:39 <elliott> You forgot at least one step
02:05:41 <Gregor> pikhq: ¡!¡!¡!¡!¡! THERE ARE BACKLOG IN PLOF CHANNEL GO GO GO ¡!¡!¡!¡!¡!
02:06:05 <Gregor> elliott: What's going wrong?
02:06:07 <elliott> Is it just me or did glogbot's channel list shrink
02:06:18 <shachaf> elliott: did you finish your "script"
02:06:19 <Gregor> elliott: I assume you already have umlbox?
02:06:22 <elliott> Gregor: I didn't try, just you forgot "Get UMLBox working" for one
02:06:42 <Gregor> X-D
02:07:11 <Gregor> Getting UMLBox working: Check out, extract Linux to a subdir, if your Linux version is different then the one in Makefile then change it or provide it as a make argument, make and make install.
02:07:15 <pikhq> Gregor: yaru nn sìȳa 'te! tèmo, kotae musùkasii no.
02:07:49 <elliott> Gregor: You should have some script to automate checking out and compiling everything :P
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02:08:11 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
02:08:12 <kmc> pikhq: probably by opening it in an editor which is configured to auto-detect encoding but save as utf-8
02:08:16 <kmc> and which auto detects wrongly
02:08:17 <Gregor> elliott: HackBot isn't really designed to be rerun ;)
02:08:22 <kmc> i don't really know
02:08:29 <kmc> i think of this as something that happens on windows ;P
02:08:29 <elliott> Gregor: "At this point it should be near-trivial to get HackEgo running..." :P
02:08:36 <pikhq> kmc: Implementing auto-detect like that takes some real doing.
02:08:42 <shachaf> kmc: I've seen that post before with its encoding not messed up.
02:08:44 <Gregor> Oh come on, it has THREE dependencies.
02:08:49 <kmc> shachaf: yes, me too
02:08:54 <Gregor> And all three of them are listed in its description!
02:08:58 <pikhq> Given that the easy way to detect UTF-8 is to check if it's valid UTF-8.
02:09:02 <elliott> Gregor: Also you forgot the part where I replicate HackEgo's filesystem to have test scripts.
02:09:06 <pikhq> If it's valid, it is UTF-8.
02:09:06 <kmc> i think he probably made a minor edit and screwed it up accidentally
02:09:10 <kmc> or moved to a new blog system or something
02:09:13 <pikhq> I guess.
02:09:17 <shachaf> Also a lot of those things are true of Hebrew.
02:09:23 <Gregor> elliott: Do you need it?
02:09:28 <Gregor> elliott: Even "echo hi" should be sufficient.
02:09:35 <kmc> shachaf: not surprising
02:09:38 <elliott> Gregor: No, because I need to test behaviour with writes and stuff and the quote system makes that e-z
02:09:46 <kmc> arabic alphabet is cooler though
02:09:47 <kmc> sorry
02:09:54 <pikhq> shachaf: Given that the two languages are in the same language family, makes a lot of sense.
02:09:54 <Gregor> <pikhq> If it's valid, it is UTF-8. // Technically, there is some insanely small possibility that this is false.
02:10:04 <shachaf> pikhq: Sure.
02:10:08 <pikhq> Gregor: Yeah, but that's the proper heuristic.
02:10:49 <shachaf> kmc: Sure, but you might as well write Farsi instead.
02:10:58 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
02:10:59 <kmc> MAYBE I WILL
02:11:07 <kmc> maybe i'll write english in arabic script
02:11:22 <pikhq> Gregor: And if you somehow find a long string in the wild that's valid UTF-8 *and* not meant to be, I'll buy you a hat or something. :P
02:11:34 <shachaf> There's always https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xiao'erjing
02:12:04 <pikhq> Well, if I can write English in kanji and a self-made script, I suppose you can do English in Arabic.
02:12:22 <elliott> Gregor: I like this irritating fucking "click the repo URL to copy it" thing that DOESN'T LET ME MIDDLE-CLICK-PASTE THE RESULT
02:12:27 <elliott> everything is terrible
02:12:40 <Gregor> elliott: Dahell?
02:12:50 <elliott> On https://bitbucket.org/GregorR/hackbot/overview
02:13:07 <kmc> there are some places in western china where you can see latin, arabic, cyrillic, han, and mongolian characters on signs
02:13:11 <kmc> also some places in new york city
02:13:13 <Gregor> That's... not an auto-copy thing?
02:13:16 <Gregor> It's just a text box?
02:13:25 <elliott> It is.
02:13:31 <elliott> Try clicking it (make sure you have JS on I guess)
02:13:37 <Gregor> I have JS on.
02:13:41 <Gregor> Of course I have JS on X-D
02:13:46 <elliott> Shrug
02:13:50 <elliott> It is definitely something weird
02:14:00 <Gregor> So's your face *shrugs*
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02:15:48 <Gregor> glogbackup: YOU'RE DRUNK, GO HOME
02:16:04 <elliott> Gregor: Where do I put multibot
02:16:13 <Gregor> Right in the repo.
02:16:18 <Gregor> Next to runner.sh
02:16:22 <elliott> `ls /ubda
02:16:23 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access /ubda: No such file or directory
02:16:41 <elliott> Gregor: Do I wipe its multibot_cmds?
02:16:43 <shachaf> kmc: I heard a rumor you were a fan of acid-state.
02:16:45 <elliott> Or keep them?
02:16:57 <Gregor> elliott: Just take the binary.
02:17:29 <elliott> I like how there's no Makefile.
02:17:38 <elliott> P.S. by like I mean hate
02:17:42 <Gregor> Makefiles are for pussies.
02:17:49 <Gregor> gcc -O3 -levent multibot.c -o multibot
02:18:01 -!- glogbackup has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
02:18:09 <Gregor> lol
02:19:10 <elliott> Does it really need libevent and yet still uses socat for networking
02:19:23 <elliott> I can't possibly articulate how much this code disgusts me
02:19:24 <Gregor> libevent... is not a networking library?
02:19:33 <elliott> I never said it was
02:19:54 <Gregor> It uses socat to avoid all the buildup/teardown bullshit of BSD sockets, so it's just stdin/stdout. Otherwise it's equivalent.
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02:20:54 <elliott> Nice, I have a newer kernel than umlbox
02:21:19 <elliott> Ugh
02:21:23 <elliott> Does this mean I have to download my own
02:24:39 <elliott> Gregor: help
02:25:02 <Gregor> Uhh, it has to build a UML kernel, yes...
02:25:08 <Gregor> Well, or if your distro has one, you can use that.
02:25:19 <shachaf> `quote
02:25:21 <HackEgo> 543) <monqy> in the past few minutes I tried remembering what my dream last night was, but instead remembered I didn't sleep
02:25:28 <shachaf> `quote
02:25:29 <shachaf> `quote
02:25:29 <shachaf> `quote
02:25:29 <shachaf> `quote
02:25:30 <HackEgo> 288) <Vorpal> elliott, it was an artful robbery! <Vorpal> wait, murder
02:25:30 <HackEgo> 70) <fedoragirl> My mascot is a tree of broccoli.
02:25:31 <HackEgo> 85) <vadim> it can be a good fursuit, but the good thing is that nobody can complain a fox doesn't have the right skin tone
02:25:31 <HackEgo> 44) <Octalnet> oklofok: I'm a tad over-apologetic. I apologize.
02:26:02 <shachaf> 44/85/70?
02:26:33 <elliott> Gregor: Well you said something about tweaking the version numbers
02:26:37 <monqy> shachaf....etiqute
02:26:57 <shachaf> eti`quote?????
02:27:03 <monqy> ye
02:27:12 <Gregor> elliott: You don't need to use the version specified by the Makefile, you can use whatever version you please
02:27:16 <shachaf> `quote
02:27:16 <shachaf> `quote
02:27:17 <shachaf> `quote
02:27:17 <shachaf> [A
02:27:17 <shachaf> [A
02:27:18 <HackEgo> 582) <monqy> never ever do bacon floats or i will hunt you down and kill you augh my leg
02:27:18 <HackEgo> 616) <Ngevd> Somehow I managed to read Haskell as Befunge
02:27:19 <HackEgo> 58) <oklopol> if a girl is that cute, i don't care how many penises she has
02:27:21 <shachaf> Hmm.
02:27:23 <Gregor> elliott: But you do have to actually fetch the source, since, y'know, you're building it.
02:27:27 <elliott> shachaf: can you stop
02:27:29 <shachaf> Is that a mosh bug or what?
02:28:26 <elliott> Gregor: Well I just meant you said "if your Linux version is different then the one in Makefile then change it or provide it as a make argument
02:28:29 <elliott> "
02:28:36 <elliott> so I do need the versions to match?
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02:28:43 <elliott> if not I'm totally happy with whatever it uses my default
02:29:40 <elliott> this is confusing!!
02:29:41 <Gregor> elliott: One way or another you have to download a Linux kernel and extract it.
02:29:46 <Gregor> It doesn't do it itself because I'm lazy.
02:29:48 <elliott> doesn't the makefile do that automatically
02:29:51 <elliott> I recall that being a thing
02:30:14 <Gregor> Would you like me to make that a thing X_X
02:30:18 <elliott> totally
02:30:18 <elliott> but
02:30:25 <elliott> ok if the versions have to match
02:30:28 <elliott> what if my kernel is patched
02:30:30 <elliott> does it need the same patches.........
02:30:39 <Gregor> The version does not have to match anything.
02:30:46 <Gregor> Just use a clean Linux.
02:31:03 <elliott> ok then
02:31:05 <Gregor> The only version matching there is is that the Makefile has a variable to know what directory to descend into.
02:33:42 <kmc> what's a mosh bug?
02:34:08 <shachaf> Those [As came from pressing up-arrow-enter quickly.
02:34:42 <oerjan> f[Ancy
02:34:46 <kmc> oh there's a known interaction with irssi paste detection
02:35:03 <kmc> if you send irssi a bunch of control codes at once, it assumes they are pasted and sends them to the channel as is
02:35:32 <shachaf> Makes sense.
02:35:41 <Fiora> ohhh. is that why it does that when there's a big internet lag after I press backspace a lot?
02:35:44 <shachaf> I guess that's the reason I can only get tabs into the irssi buffer by pasting.
02:36:00 <Fiora> so it ends up packet-lossing a lot, so it sends all of them at once, and instead of backspacing I get a bunch of control codes
02:36:04 <kmc> yeah
02:36:07 <Fiora> makes sense.
02:36:10 <oerjan> hm...
02:36:18 <Fiora> I've noticed that when being on horridly lossy networks and not using local-edit mode
02:36:55 <elliott> local-edit mode?
02:37:17 <elliott> are you saying there is actually a way to get reasonable local line editing with modern networking stuff
02:37:28 <Fiora> um, putty has a local edit mode
02:37:33 <Fiora> it basicaly just sends a command when you hit enter
02:37:41 <elliott> hmmm
02:37:46 <elliott> does it actually do proper line editing
02:37:49 <kmc> mosh does local line editing
02:37:51 <Fiora> it's not that great and it kinda gets icky when you have a line longer than 80 chars
02:37:54 <kmc> that's one of the main features over ssh
02:37:56 <Fiora> but it's workable I guess
02:38:03 <Fiora> yeah, I'd guess mosh is a lot better >_<
02:38:07 <shachaf> but does mosh have a locale edit mode
02:38:07 <Fiora> especially at interacting with irssi and things
02:38:24 <kmc> mosh does get feedback from the server
02:38:41 <kmc> that is, it can distinguish "nothing was echoed within 50 ms" from "your network connection dropped for 50 ms"
02:38:48 <elliott> kmc: well mosh's local line editing is kind of bad
02:38:50 <kmc> a packet is sent for the former
02:38:52 <elliott> as in I wouldn't want to use it exclusively
02:39:10 <shachaf> kmc: You know the thing where mosh jumps from "last contact: 13 seconds" to "last response: 50 seconds" or something like that?
02:39:14 <kmc> no
02:39:14 <shachaf> Or maybe the other way around.
02:39:14 <elliott> Gregor: oh come on, Linux doesn't compile
02:39:20 <Gregor> Uhh
02:39:32 <Fiora> I guess quassel might work even better at this just for irc
02:39:48 <kmc> i guess from Fiora's description of PuTTY's thing, it probably does not work in, say, vim
02:40:11 <kmc> where you want line editing and then you hit Esc and now you want immediate feedback of your keystrokes
02:40:37 <Fiora> I think it basically just doesn't send your chars until you hit enter, then it sends them all. but maybe it works with things other than enter too
02:40:46 <kmc> yeah
02:40:54 <kmc> mosh always sends them right away, but predicts a local echo in some situations
02:41:02 <kmc> and also predicts the effects of left-arrow and right arrow and backspace
02:41:10 <Fiora> I really don't know much about it
02:41:31 <elliott> kmc: mosh should predict ctrl+<dir> too
02:41:32 <elliott> and tab
02:41:36 <elliott> and ctrl+w
02:41:37 <elliott> thanks
02:41:50 <shachaf> ctrl+<dir>?
02:41:53 <shachaf> What does that even do?
02:42:15 <kmc> move by word in irssi
02:42:17 <kmc> apparently
02:42:24 <shachaf> Oh.
02:42:27 <elliott> kmc: oh and ^K and ^U too
02:42:32 <kmc> don't know what tab would do other than complete nicks >_<
02:42:35 <shachaf> M-f and M-b, elliott.
02:42:45 <kmc> people have asked for ^U
02:42:49 <shachaf> kmc: Tab does lots of other things!
02:42:50 <kmc> B^U
02:42:57 <Fiora> ... oh cool! I didn't know about ctrl-w
02:43:00 <Fiora> that's useful
02:43:12 <shachaf> Complete channels, complete arguments to commands...
02:43:16 <elliott> I keep using Ctrl+W in non-terminal programs and it closes my windows.
02:43:23 <ion> elliott: ditto
02:43:27 <elliott> kmc: tab should complete nicks, yes.
02:43:28 <shachaf> Everyone does that.
02:43:49 <Fiora> wow, ctrl-w closes tabs in chrome too
02:44:00 <shachaf> Why is the topic in Finnish?
02:44:36 <elliott> Fiora: did you seriously not know that
02:44:43 <elliott> how have you been closing tabs.....
02:44:47 <Fiora> by clicking the x
02:44:49 <Fiora> um
02:44:52 <Fiora> I'm not very good with keyboard shortcuts
02:45:00 -!- shachaf has set topic: hi | http://соdu.оrg/lоgs/_еsоtеriс/.
02:45:02 <elliott> another tip: middle-clicking anywhere on a tab closes it too
02:45:14 <Fiora> anywhere in the window, or on the tab itself?
02:45:17 <elliott> on the tab itself
02:45:20 <shachaf> Try it out!
02:45:21 <Fiora> ah, yeah, I know that one
02:45:32 <elliott> third tip: middle-clicking links opens them in a new tab??? :P
02:45:33 <shachaf> Also you can find out keyboard shortcuts in Chrome by clicking.
02:45:38 <Fiora> I know that one XDD
02:45:49 <ion> another tip: middle-clicking elliott turns it into a shachaf
02:45:51 <shachaf> I right click links to open them in a new tab.
02:46:01 <elliott> "helpful chrome tip click links to open them"
02:46:10 <shachaf> Double right click opens a link in a new tab!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
02:46:33 <ion> I open links to a new tab by middle-clicking if i’m using the mouse.
02:46:43 <shachaf> kmc: Remember the time when middle clicking on a page in Firefox/Mozilla would go to the URL in PRIMARY?
02:46:50 <ion> I do.
02:46:51 <shachaf> I don't have a middle button!
02:47:01 -!- elliott has set topic: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
02:47:05 <shachaf> I have a left button and a right button and sometimes I press them together.
02:47:07 <elliott> please stop violating freenode guidelines by messing up the log url thx
02:47:09 <Fiora> random annoying thing: URLs that use javascript to open a new window, so when I middle-click them, it opens an empty tab
02:47:13 <ion> shachaf: A.k.a. the middle button
02:47:28 <shachaf> ion: Except a crumb or something got into my left button so now it's awkward to press.
02:47:30 <elliott> Fiora: sometimes those even open said link in the tab you middle-clicked from
02:48:09 <shachaf> "If you're publishing logs on an ongoing basis, your channel topic should reflect that fact."
02:48:24 <kmc> shachaf: yes!
02:48:47 <elliott> Gregor: help me already
02:48:50 <elliott> my gcc can't compile the kernel
02:48:58 <kmc> shachaf: when that happens you need to just pound that key repeatedly until the crumb turns into dust
02:48:59 <Gregor> elliott: What's going on?
02:49:02 <kmc> lifehacker pro tip ^^^^
02:49:05 <Gregor> elliott: What distro are you distriing?
02:49:12 <elliott> arch
02:49:18 <elliott> CC arch/um/os-Linux/signal.o
02:49:18 <elliott> arch/um/os-Linux/signal.c:18:8: error: conflicting types for ‘sig_info’
02:49:18 <elliott> In file included from arch/um/os-Linux/signal.c:12:0:
02:49:18 <elliott> /home/elliott/src/hackego/umlbox/linux-3.6.10/arch/um/include/shared/as-layout.h:64:15: note: previous declaration of ‘sig_info’ was here
02:49:19 <Gregor> Does it have a UML package?
02:49:21 <elliott> arch/um/os-Linux/signal.c:19:2: warning: initialization from incompatible pointer type [enabled by default]
02:49:22 <shachaf> kmc: I think it's sticky or something.
02:49:24 <elliott> [crap repetition]
02:49:28 <shachaf> kmc: It only happens occasionally now.
02:49:34 <Gregor> What version of Linux?
02:49:34 <shachaf> It might have something to do with temperature, I don't know.
02:49:40 <elliott> Gregor: lemme check, google turns up https://lkml.org/lkml/2012/10/23/731 though
02:49:41 <shachaf> I'm more concerned with my lack of → and End keys!
02:49:46 <ion> fiora: Browsers suck at that. All clicks should run the click event, the default one or not, and any resulting page loads should happen in the present tab or a new one based on which button was used originally.
02:49:52 <elliott> Gregor: happens with building both 3.6.6 and 3.6.10
02:50:01 <elliott> there's
02:50:02 <elliott> community/uml_utilities 20070815-5 User Mode Linux Utilities
02:50:03 <elliott> in the repos
02:50:07 <elliott> but that's it as far as "uml" goes
02:50:13 <Gregor> Well then you're fucked 8-D
02:50:16 <shachaf> oh, ion.
02:50:18 <shachaf> oion.
02:50:25 <ion> ochaf
02:50:36 <elliott> http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.linux.uml.devel/13702 too
02:50:46 <elliott> Gregor: you said this would be trivial :(
02:50:55 <Gregor> elliott: It's supposed to be!
02:50:56 -!- oerjan has set topic: /ciretose_/sgol/gro.udoc//:ptth.
02:50:59 <Gregor> But building UML ain't my job.
02:51:04 <Fiora> ion: is that something that's defined by the html specs and stuff so the browser has no choice?
02:51:13 <elliott> oerjan: don't/
02:51:18 -!- elliott has set topic: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
02:51:20 <ion> fiora: no
02:51:23 <Fiora> ah
02:51:43 -!- Gregor has set topic: I ate too much, I'm feeling all *urp* ciretose | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
02:51:54 <elliott> Gregor: There's a linux-usermode AUR package apparently, maybe that works
02:52:19 <elliott> doesn't look like it
02:52:28 <elliott> Gregor: You should give me an SSH account on codu or something :P
02:52:33 <oerjan> i just noticed the guidelines said "reflect that fact"
02:52:36 <Gregor> Dahell
02:52:48 <kmc> mosh should be renamed to sssh
02:52:51 <kmc> super secure shell
02:52:55 <kmc> that would cast aside all doubts right
02:53:06 <ion> /ɔᴉɹǝʇosǝ‾/sᵷol/ᵷɹo˙npoɔ//:dʇʇɥ
02:53:37 <elliott> Gregor: Are you suggesting I am not the most trustworthy person ever
02:53:39 <ion> kmc: “Enterprise SSH”
02:53:42 -!- shachaf has set topic: this channel is logged. don't say anything incriminating..
02:53:50 -!- elliott has set topic: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
02:53:59 -!- kmc has set topic: y'all tryin' to criminate me! | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
02:54:08 <Gregor> I am suggesting that it is really, truly not that difficult to get hackbot working.
02:54:19 <elliott> Gregor: Well, I can't install UML.
02:54:22 <elliott> So it's literally impossible.
02:55:05 <elliott> Maybe 3.7-rc8 will work
02:58:36 <kmc> shachaf: http://static.flickr.com/79/221038665_de70857eb3.jpg
02:59:18 -!- WeThePeople has joined.
03:00:28 <quintopia> when did gregor start saying dahell all the time
03:00:33 <quintopia> what a weirdo
03:00:40 <elliott> `welcome WeThePeople
03:00:42 <HackEgo> WeThePeople: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
03:00:44 <shachaf> kmc: http://www.coolstuffexpress.com/store/i/is.aspx?path=/Shared/IMAGES/DCI/pizza_tasty_key_topper.jpg&lr=t&bw=600&w=600&bh=600&h=600
03:01:06 <pikhq> quintopia: Well, Gregor is awesomelord
03:01:09 <WeThePeople> i hate gregorian
03:01:34 <WeThePeople> its false
03:01:39 <pikhq> I'm parsing that as "I hate in a Gregorian fashion".
03:02:10 <pikhq> Which doesn't help to me then interpret the sentence, but it is funny.
03:02:24 <WeThePeople> gregorian calender
03:02:30 <WeThePeople> lol
03:02:30 <pikhq> What's false about it?
03:02:39 <WeThePeople> everything
03:02:54 <WeThePeople> its based on catholicism
03:03:20 <elliott> WeThePeople: i think you are in the wrong channel
03:03:31 <pikhq> I fail to see how it is *based on* Catholicism, nor how that would make it inherently false.
03:03:35 <pikhq> Also that.
03:03:48 <WeThePeople> no im not
03:03:59 <shachaf> kmc: Oh, this was an actual thing?
03:04:01 <elliott> WeThePeople: are you sure you read the welcome message
03:04:04 <quintopia> however "gregor is weird or gregorian calendar is true" is definitely true
03:04:18 <kmc> shachaf: yeha it's the iOpener keyboard
03:04:43 <WeThePeople> yes
03:04:57 <WeThePeople> programming
03:04:58 <pikhq> (indeed, it's actually a slight modification of the Julian calendar, which was itself a modification of the traditional Roman calendar. Its origins waaay predate Catholicism, and indeed predates the claimed birth of Jesus.)
03:05:06 <shachaf> yee-ha!
03:05:08 <kmc> google maps shows a 1.3km wide shaded stripe stretching from monterey bay down to the salton sea
03:05:16 <shachaf> I don't know anything about the i-opener.
03:05:19 <shachaf> Well, I know a bit now.
03:05:53 <pikhq> WeThePeople: The only difference between the Gregorian calendar and the Julian is the leap year rule. And the Julian calendar predates Christianity. So...
03:06:06 <WeThePeople> interesting
03:06:42 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
03:07:24 <kmc> obviously google is planning to dig a huge and pointless canal
03:07:24 <elliott> good to know WeThePeople made sure they were as uninformed as possible about the gregorian calendar before starting to hate it
03:07:47 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
03:09:36 <WeThePeople> lol
03:10:00 <shachaf> @quote gwern
03:10:00 <lambdabot> gwern says: there are no beginnings or ends to the circular list; but a cons cell thunked in Amador...
03:10:25 <quintopia> gwern just pinged out on me
03:11:09 <kmc> i should warn the mayor of san bernardino
03:11:33 <quintopia> isnt that where mcdonalds was born
03:11:43 <shachaf> sort -R ~ shuf?
03:12:28 <kmc> apparentlyp
03:12:44 <shachaf> kmc is turning into common lisp
03:13:00 <kmc> maybe i'm turning into yp
03:14:14 <elliott> Gregor: seriously how is it meant to be easy to get hackbot working if I cannot get uml working
03:14:41 <shachaf> elliott: Just don't use a sandbox.
03:15:18 <elliott> shachaf: that will help a ton considering I am trying to speed up the umlbox part
03:18:52 <kmc> maybe it is the san andreas fault
03:20:39 -!- WeThePeople has quit (Changing host).
03:20:39 -!- WeThePeople has joined.
03:22:22 <elliott> san andreas / the san andreas fault line
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03:30:45 <elliott> Gregor: heeelp
03:31:06 <Gregor> elliott: Dude, building UML is fucking MAKE.
03:31:15 <Gregor> If it doesn't build for you, something about your setup is terrible.
03:31:18 <Gregor> And you should feel bad.
03:31:37 <elliott> Gregor: did you completely ignore the part where I linked you to a thread where other people have had this problem and it's something that got fixed in the kernel itself or something
03:32:08 <Gregor> Dude, if it was fixed in the kernel, THEN USE THE RIGHT VERSION OF THE FUCKING KERNEL
03:32:13 <Gregor> It works for me!
03:32:38 <elliott> Gregor: did you miss the part where I used the kernel version you use, the latest stable kernel, and the latest rc
03:32:43 <Gregor> Yes!
03:32:46 <Gregor> Yes I did, fuckface!
03:33:17 <Gregor> Wait, you mean the kernel I boot to, or the kernel I'm using in UMLBox?
03:33:26 <Gregor> The kernel I'm using in UMLBox is the one in the Makefile.
03:33:36 <Gregor> The kernel I boot to is 3.1 (unupdated wifi driver >: ( )
03:33:56 <Gregor> But that's only on this system... I've used quite newer versions. And hell, the kernel you're booting doesn't affect building software anyway.
03:34:21 <elliott> I mean in the UML kernel
03:34:29 <elliott> Anyway I guess I could try git linux? That will take five years to download though.
03:34:45 <Gregor> elliott: The Makefile in umlbox specifies the last version I explicitly tested against.
03:35:16 <Gregor> Which appears to be 3.6.6.
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03:35:24 <elliott> yes
03:35:25 <elliott> I tried that
03:35:26 <elliott> and 3.6.10
03:35:29 <elliott> and 3.blah-rc-blah
03:35:34 <elliott> http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.linux.kernel/1351400 apparently this is the patch that fixes it or something
03:35:42 <Gregor> Then PATCH.
03:35:51 <Gregor> I'm not going to add something to umlbox when it WORKS — FOR — ME.
03:36:18 <elliott> well apparently this patch is actually in the rc I tried...
03:36:26 <elliott> (when did I tell you to add anything to umlbox??)
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03:37:10 <Gregor> I have /no idea/ what you're telling me to do.
03:37:16 <Gregor> It builds for me, and I've never had any problem.
03:37:20 <Gregor> So how am I supposed to help you.
03:38:03 <elliott> idk telepathy?
03:38:23 <elliott> oh apparently that is the commit that broke things
03:38:55 <Gregor> You could try whatever absurdly ancient version HackEgo is still on.
03:38:57 <Gregor> `cat /proc/version
03:38:58 <HackEgo> Linux version 3.0.8-umlbox (root@codu.org) (gcc version 4.4.5 (Debian 4.4.5-8) ) #2 Sun Nov 13 21:30:28 UTC 2011
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03:39:35 <elliott> maybe i will find the linux version released before 31 august
03:40:01 <shachaf> linux was invented in september
03:41:06 <elliott> 3.0.42 it is
03:41:21 <Gregor> Please tell me why it builds just fine for me X-D
03:45:26 <elliott> Gregor: what gcc version, and what kernel are you compiling
03:45:51 <Gregor> Well, on HackEgo:
03:45:53 <Gregor> `gcc --version
03:45:54 <HackEgo> gcc (Debian 4.4.5-8) 4.4.5 \ Copyright (C) 2010 Free Software Foundation, Inc. \ This is free software; see the source for copying conditions. There is NO \ warranty; not even for MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE.
03:46:13 <Gregor> Locally, 4.7.2, evidently, but that's probably not the version I had when I most recently compiled umlbox.
03:47:11 -!- evitable has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
03:47:56 <elliott> how about you try building umlbox now :P
03:49:06 <elliott> wooooo, 3.0.42 fails in another manner
03:49:11 <elliott> CC arch/um/os-Linux/start_up.o
03:49:11 <elliott> arch/um/os-Linux/start_up.c: In function ‘check_coredump_limit’:
03:49:11 <elliott> arch/um/os-Linux/start_up.c:340:16: error: storage size of ‘lim’ isn’t known
03:49:14 <elliott> arch/um/os-Linux/start_up.c:341:2: error: implicit declaration of function ‘getrlimit’ [-Werror=implicit-function-declaration]
03:49:17 <elliott> arch/um/os-Linux/start_up.c:341:22: error: ‘RLIMIT_CORE’ undeclared (first use in this function)
03:49:20 <elliott> arch/um/os-Linux/start_up.c:341:22: note: each undeclared identifier is reported only once for each function it appears in
03:49:23 <elliott> arch/um/os-Linux/start_up.c:349:22: error: ‘RLIM_INFINITY’ undeclared (first use in this function)
03:49:26 <elliott> arch/um/os-Linux/start_up.c:340:16: warning: unused variable ‘lim’ [-Wunused-variable]
03:49:38 <elliott> I wonder what that even means
03:51:27 <Gregor> Fine, I'll build umlbox now.
03:51:48 <Gregor> I'll bet it just works.
03:53:04 <Gregor> It'll take a while 'cuz I'm on a slow-arse laptop ;)
03:53:18 <elliott> Gregor: 1.33 ghz
03:53:19 <elliott> beat that
03:53:37 <shachaf> 800MHz
03:53:50 <shachaf> (Except when it actually uses it. Then it goes up a little bit.)
03:53:59 <Gregor> My speed scaling is broken, it's stuck at 800MHz.
03:54:03 <Gregor> (Kidding ;) )
03:56:54 <elliott> okay i patched the file that didn't build and added an #include
03:56:57 <elliott> this feels VERY RICKETY
03:57:52 <Gregor> OH LOOK
03:57:53 <Gregor> IT BUILT FINE
03:58:30 <elliott> great
03:58:34 <elliott> so now you can give me an ssh account
03:58:38 <elliott> and I can use your built umlbox!
03:59:02 <Gregor> Seriously. SERIOUSLY. How are you having trouble building UML.
03:59:03 <Gregor> SERIOUSLYYYY
03:59:32 <elliott> i have gcc 4.7.2 btw
03:59:52 <pikhq> Maybe he uses musl.
04:00:10 <Gregor> Nope
04:00:10 <kmc> what's a pirate's favorite posix system call
04:00:12 <pikhq> (has anyone gotten UML and musl to work yet?)
04:00:24 <kmc> setarrrrrrrrrlimit(2)
04:06:20 <kmc> i see you are all rendered speechless by my shining wit
04:08:10 <elliott> Gregor: okay so i got this old kernel compiled by patching it
04:08:17 <shachaf> @yarrrr limit
04:08:18 <lambdabot> Prepare to be boarded!
04:08:21 <Gregor> lul
04:08:28 <Gregor> elliott: OK NEXT STEP INSTALL DAT SHIT
04:08:31 <elliott> Gregor: do I just run runner.sh
04:08:32 <Fiora> what do pirates use to create static libraries?
04:08:34 <elliott> no I'm just going to set PATH
04:08:34 <Fiora> arrrrrrrrrrr
04:09:05 <Gregor> elliott: So long as you have multibot next to runner and socat and umlbox in $PATH, yeah, just run runner.sh. ... after configuring it to have a sensible name and all that jazz.
04:13:42 -!- Gregor has set topic: DO NOT FUCKING CURSE IN THIS GOD DAMNED CHANNEL, CUNT | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
04:14:21 <elliott> abort: no username supplied (see "hg help config")
04:14:27 -!- elliott has set topic: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
04:14:32 <elliott> why do i need a username.....
04:14:35 <Gregor> Hahaha
04:14:46 <Gregor> Mercurial needs a username to commit X-D
04:14:50 <Gregor> I should probably build it in...
04:14:56 -!- shachaf has set topic: ☭ | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
04:15:04 <Gregor> (Instead of just using the .hgrc)
04:15:17 <Fiora> I remember git yells at me if I forget to specify it
04:15:20 <elliott> imo do that now
04:15:24 <elliott> so I can not set things up
04:15:44 <Gregor> Just add "-u", "HackBot" after "hg", "commit", "-R", wutever
04:16:38 <Gregor> (I'll add that to the repo too)
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04:17:00 <elliott> `test
04:17:01 <HackEgo> No output.
04:17:07 <elliott> Traceback (most recent call last):
04:17:08 <elliott> File "PRIVMSG/tr_60.cmd", line 129, in <module>
04:17:08 <elliott> transact(command, 'lib/sandbox', command)
04:17:08 <elliott> File "PRIVMSG/tr_60.cmd", line 73, in transact
04:17:08 <elliott> for sline in so.split("\n"):
04:17:10 <elliott> TypeError: Type str doesn't support the buffer API
04:17:12 <elliott> Gregor: it's trying to run it as python3
04:17:17 <Gregor> X-D
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04:17:33 <lambdabot> don't listen to that nasty bot
04:17:40 <lambdabot> Gregor = the best
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04:18:15 <elliott> `test
04:18:16 <HackEgo> No output.
04:18:17 <GregorSucks> nice: /usr/bin/umlbox: No such file or directory
04:18:24 <elliott> does it really hardcode the fuckin path
04:18:26 <shachaf> nice
04:18:26 <Gregor> Why is lambdabot defending me.
04:18:36 <Gregor> Hahaha
04:18:46 <elliott> Gregor: because shachaf
04:18:51 <shachaf> what!
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04:19:26 <shachaf> kmc: Are you going to be near SF this week?
04:19:53 <Gregor> Dude, my shitty dead-man's switch server is going crazy.
04:19:55 -!- GregorSucks has joined.
04:20:00 <elliott> `test
04:20:01 <HackEgo> No output.
04:20:01 -!- GregorSucks has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
04:20:07 <elliott> $ PATH=../umlbox:$PATH ./runner.sh
04:20:07 <elliott> [1]+ Killed PATH=../umlbox:$PATH ./runner.sh
04:20:08 <elliott> Terminated
04:20:13 <elliott> SO EASY GREGOR SAID
04:20:22 <kmc> shachaf: no, why?
04:20:47 <shachaf> "just wondering"
04:20:53 <Gregor> Ha-HA I remember having that problem it's FUN
04:21:39 <Gregor> See if lib/sandbox has any weird paths in it.
04:21:50 <Gregor> If uml dies, it seems to have a habit of taking down FUCKING EVERYTHING with it.
04:22:45 <elliott> it has '/home/elliott/src/hackego/umlbox/umlbox'
04:22:46 <elliott> does that count
04:22:56 <elliott> actually
04:22:58 <elliott> does that work?
04:23:01 <elliott> can umlbox find the kernel
04:23:15 <Gregor> Yes
04:23:48 <elliott> wait
04:23:53 <elliott> do i have to make an actual /hackenv directory
04:23:54 <elliott> on my actual fs
04:25:09 <Gregor> No
04:25:14 <Gregor> That's artificial.
04:25:34 <Gregor> See if you can run lib/sandbox directly. HACKENV=multibot_cmds/env multibot_cmds/lib/sandbox echo hi
04:25:49 <elliott> $ HACKENV=multibot_cmds/env multibot_cmds/lib/sandbox echo hi
04:25:49 <elliott> Terminated
04:25:49 <elliott> sigh
04:26:33 <Gregor> Err wait, I forgot, you need to be in multibot_cmds X-D
04:26:40 <Gregor> cd multibot_cmds; HACKENV=env ./lib/sandbox echo hi
04:26:57 <elliott> $ HACKENV=env ./lib/sandbox echo hi
04:26:57 <elliott> Terminated
04:27:24 <Gregor> Yeah, that's a problem X-D
04:27:31 <Gregor> umlbox -B echo hi ?
04:28:28 <elliott> Terminated
04:28:32 <elliott> maybe my uml linux is broken
04:28:56 <Gregor> Try umlbox -B -v echo hi, see if the kernel gives any hints as to where it's failing.
04:29:54 <elliott> No filesystem could mount root, tried:
04:29:54 <elliott> Kernel panic - not syncing: VFS: Unable to mount root fs on unknown-block(98,0)
04:30:41 <Gregor> Dahell? How did you build the kernel?
04:31:16 <elliott> make
04:31:29 <elliott> Plus adding a <sys/resources.h> include to one UML file that didn't have it.
04:31:31 <elliott> For some reason.
04:31:48 <Gregor> As in, make in the umlbox root?
04:31:51 <Gregor> So it used the umlbox config?
04:32:24 <elliott> Yes.
04:32:45 <Gregor> Dahell.
04:33:07 -!- Arc_Koen has left.
04:33:34 <elliott> It's 3.0.42
04:33:42 <Gregor> `cat /proc/version
04:33:43 <HackEgo> Linux version 3.0.8-umlbox (root@codu.org) (gcc version 4.4.5 (Debian 4.4.5-8) ) #2 Sun Nov 13 21:30:28 UTC 2011
04:33:47 <Gregor> 3.0.42 should be fine.
04:33:58 <elliott> well, it isn't :P
04:35:08 <elliott> Gregor: How about you just send me a compiled umlbox/umlbox-linux
04:35:14 <elliott> Or even I guess just the latter
04:35:23 <Gregor> Okidoke.
04:35:43 <Gregor> http://codu.org/tmp/umlbox-linux
04:36:14 <elliott> Your willingness to do this has made me more suspicious of this binary than any other
04:36:48 <Gregor> X-D
04:37:00 <elliott> No filesystem could mount root, tried: ext3 ext2 ext4
04:37:00 <elliott> Kernel panic - not syncing: VFS: Unable to mount root fs on unknown-block(98,0)
04:37:03 <elliott> Gregor: I think I know the problem.
04:37:06 <elliott> My filesystem is JFS.
04:37:15 <Gregor> It doesn't need to mount your host filesystem.
04:37:23 <Gregor> It just mounts an initrd, then uses hostfs.
04:37:23 <elliott> Hmmmmm
04:37:27 <elliott> Then why did it try ext3/ext2/ext4
04:37:48 <Gregor> I have NO clue. Does it barf the umlbox-linux command line?
04:39:38 <elliott> Kernel command line: initrd=/home/elliott/src/hackego/umlbox/umlbox-initrd.gz ubda=/tmp/24023.conf mem=256M con1=fd:0,fd:3 con2=null con=null,fd:1 root=98:0
04:40:04 <oerjan> we need an esolang called Dahell now. it should vaguely resemble haskell, but get as much as possible slightly wrong in ways that blow up horribly when combined (no, C++ is not close enough.)
04:40:10 <Gregor> I wonder if somehow the way it's configured, I need to actually ASK it to use initrd...
04:40:38 <Gregor> elliott: In umlbox, can you add "root=ram0" to the kernel command line?
04:40:51 <Gregor> I THINK that's how you explicitly ask for it to use initrd as root.
04:40:56 <Gregor> umlbox-initrd.gz exists, right?
04:41:07 <elliott> Just at the end?
04:41:08 <elliott> -- yeah, it does
04:41:12 <Gregor> Shouldn't matter.
04:41:25 <elliott> No filesystem could mount root, tried: ext3 ext2 ext4
04:41:25 <elliott> Kernel panic - not syncing: VFS: Unable to mount root fs on unknown-block(0,0)
04:41:28 <elliott> Kernel command line: initrd=/home/elliott/src/hackego/umlbox/umlbox-initrd.gz ubda=/tmp/24040.conf mem=256M con1=fd:0,fd:3 con2=null con=null,fd:1 root=ram0
04:41:38 <Gregor> What. The. Fuck.
04:41:58 <Gregor> gunzip -c umlbox-initrd.gz | file -
04:42:56 <Gregor> Maybe you don't have cpio ^^
04:43:55 <elliott> $ gunzip -c umlbox-initrd.gz | file -
04:43:56 <elliott> /dev/stdin: no read permission
04:44:15 <pikhq> I, um, what?
04:44:28 <elliott> I have no idea.
04:44:42 <Gregor> ...
04:44:44 <Gregor> WHAAAAAAAAAAAT
04:44:59 <Gregor> My whole universe just collapsed in on itself.
04:45:04 <elliott> It's like I'm using a version of Linux that's subtly different to everyone else's.
04:45:15 <Gregor> It is!
04:45:21 <pikhq> I think you are actually using the Deathstation.
04:45:28 <Gregor> gunzip -c umlbox-initrd.gz > umlbox-initrd ; file umlbox-initrd
04:45:37 <elliott> If it helps:
04:45:38 <elliott> umlbox-initrd.gz: gzip compressed data, from Unix, last modified: Tue Dec 11 03:48:01 2012, max compression
04:45:52 <elliott> $ gunzip -c umlbox-initrd.gz > umlbox-initrd ; file umlbox-initrd
04:45:52 <elliott> umlbox-initrd: empty
04:45:55 <elliott> that seems suboptimal
04:45:58 <Gregor> ^^
04:46:02 <pikhq> Oh good, the header's correct at least.
04:46:03 <Gregor> Do you have cpio?
04:46:03 <elliott> I don't have a cpio(1) if that matters
04:46:06 <Gregor> Yeah
04:46:08 <Gregor> That matters.
04:46:15 <elliott> I must say the error reporting could be better.
04:46:28 <Gregor> I just added "|| rm -f umlbox-initrd.gz" to the Makefile X-D
04:46:31 <elliott> Whaddo I do once I have cpio? make clean && make?
04:46:37 <Gregor> Just rm that file and make.
04:46:48 <pikhq> if you feel insane you could install pax(1) instead, and then hack the Makefile. :P
04:46:52 <elliott> OK, now umlbox works.
04:47:00 <elliott> Except it fucks up my terminal.
04:47:08 <Gregor> Yeah, it does that with -v ^^´
04:47:09 <Gregor> Just reset
04:47:50 -!- GregorSucks has joined.
04:47:52 <elliott> `test
04:47:53 <HackEgo> No output.
04:47:54 <GregorSucks> No output.
04:47:58 <elliott> `echo hi
04:47:59 <HackEgo> hi
04:47:59 <GregorSucks> hi
04:48:03 <elliott> how do i change its prefix
04:48:05 <elliott> move the tr_?
04:48:15 <Gregor> Yup 8-D
04:48:20 <Gregor> BECAUSE ITS DA BEST
04:48:31 <elliott> what's a nice prefix
04:48:45 <Gregor> 5E is ^
04:48:57 <elliott> ...
04:48:59 <elliott> fungot is a thing
04:49:00 <fungot> elliott: we just got through database normalization. normalization turns fnord strings into fnord ones. buttons are usually pngs, i think i got it to work for tho
04:49:07 <Gregor> Oh, heh
04:49:29 <Gregor> Um, 23 is #?
04:49:36 <shachaf> f​ungot is fun
04:49:56 <elliott> > ord '|'
04:49:58 <lambdabot> 124
04:50:00 -!- GregorSucks has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
04:50:09 <Gregor> ...???
04:50:15 <elliott> What
04:50:18 <Gregor> Y'know you don't have to shut it down to change the prefix.
04:50:21 <elliott> Actually I guess I need it in hex
04:50:23 <elliott> Oh, you don't?
04:50:42 <Gregor> The major point of multibot is you never need to take it down, you just add and remove commands willy-nilly.
04:50:57 <Gregor> 25 is %
04:50:58 <shachaf> µltibot
04:51:08 <elliott> % is my old bot's prefix :(
04:51:22 <shachaf> Was it called ellibott?
04:52:00 <shachaf> elliott: Remember when you wrote that script to @admin - me?
04:53:23 <elliott> Yes.
04:54:14 <elliott> Gregor: What's &?
04:54:38 <Gregor> 26
04:54:59 <shachaf> `quote
04:55:01 <HackEgo> 757) <calamari> there was a time when I liked wearing a tie too.. I was a mormon. not claiming one has to be a religious nutcase to wear a tie, of course
04:55:23 <Gregor> :(
04:55:29 <shachaf> ?
04:55:41 -!- GregorSucks has joined.
04:55:43 <elliott> &echo ic chamber
04:55:44 <GregorSucks> ic chamber
04:55:47 <elliott> &ls
04:55:48 <GregorSucks> No output.
04:55:54 <elliott> Why is mine slower than Gregor's?
04:56:17 <shachaf> I guess your computer is worse?
04:56:18 <shachaf> &hi
04:56:20 <GregorSucks> ​/home/elliott/src/hackego/hackbot/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: hi: not found
04:56:22 <shachaf> `hi
04:56:24 <HackEgo> hi
04:56:29 <shachaf> They seem equally fast.
04:56:32 <Gregor> elliott: ALL THE MORE REASON TO MAKE IT FASTER
04:56:36 <Gregor> http://codu.org/tmp/marigoldsnuffles.gif
04:56:43 <zzo38> Use the nickname of the bot and a colon and space as the prefix, except private messages which should use no prefix at all.
04:56:43 <lambdabot> zzo38: You have 3 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
04:56:47 <elliott> Gregor: I've forgotten how I was even going to make it faster.
04:56:49 <zzo38> ?messages
04:56:50 <lambdabot> shachaf asked 1m 27d 12h 10m 13s ago: Want a message?
04:56:50 <lambdabot> AnotherTest said 1m 27d 12h 9m 15s ago: and another one
04:56:50 <lambdabot> fizzie said 16h 23m 44s ago: That is, the name lookup is done the way you wanted, with the members being considered defined in the scope in which the union is declared. I have not checked whether C++
04:56:50 <lambdabot> makes it undefined to read an union member that was not the one last written to.
04:56:58 <Gregor> elliott: By making it have a persistent umlbox process.
04:57:04 <Gregor> Good luck with that, by the way X-D
04:57:08 <elliott> Gregor: Oh right.
04:57:10 <elliott> Why good luck. :(
04:57:43 <Gregor> My suggestion would be to, much more simply, have it just have a umlbox process waiting in the wings, so to speak. Still one-time use, but already there.
04:58:44 <elliott> Hmmm
04:58:49 <elliott> That wouldn't make doing, e.g. 5 `quotes any faster.
04:59:04 <elliott> Do people really care about the performance of one command?
04:59:17 <elliott> I guess if HackEgo is being merged.
04:59:50 <Gregor> You could make it pool.
05:00:11 <Gregor> Need five fast `quotes? FIVE UMLBOX PROCESSES. BADA-BING BADA-BOOM
05:01:53 <elliott> Gregor: That seems like a good idea actually...
05:01:58 <elliott> Just keep 10 or so UMLBoxes running constantly.
05:02:28 <shachaf> Isn't it fast enough?
05:02:29 <shachaf> `quote
05:02:30 <shachaf> `quote
05:02:30 <shachaf> `quote
05:02:30 <shachaf> `quote
05:02:31 <HackEgo> 392) <tswett> elliott: by the way, you're now almost capable of crawling.
05:02:31 <HackEgo> 54) <Madelon> both of you, quit it with the f-bombs. <Madelon> kaelis: what's the matter? something censoring stuff you're interested in?
05:02:32 <HackEgo> 673) <elliott> I'm not biased towards humanity over sentient .txt files.
05:02:32 <HackEgo> 776) <monqy> imagine hitting a brick wall really really hard but you don't do anything to it. instead you explode. <monqy> that's what it's like for people who hit you
05:02:33 <shachaf> `quote
05:02:34 <HackEgo> 719) <olsner> the allocation is done by the "Dynamic" in DRAM <olsner> before that we used SRAM where everything was preallocated in the factory <fizzie> olsner: So what's this SDRAM then? <olsner> fizzie: synchronized, it's for multithreading
05:02:34 <elliott> I mean, I don't see any reason not to.
05:02:45 <Gregor> elliott: I don't know any reason not to.
05:03:04 <elliott> shachaf: That was a really flimsy excuse for spam.
05:03:14 <shachaf> elliott: Better than your usual excuses.
05:03:51 <elliott> Are you seriously making a conspiracy out of the fact that occasionally some quotes are called up to delete when the channel is quiet which literally nobody but you has a problem with...
05:05:14 <kmc> `quote
05:05:15 <HackEgo> 593) <Phantom_Hoover> oh god oh god <Phantom_Hoover> what if I become <Phantom_Hoover> attracted <Phantom_Hoover> to birds
05:05:25 <shachaf> KMC IS PART OF IT
05:05:34 <kmc> `quote
05:05:36 <HackEgo> 637) <shachaf> You should get kmc in this channel. kmc has good quotes. <shachaf> `quote kmc <HackEgo> 686) <kmc> COCKS [...] <kmc> truly cocks <shachaf> Well, in theory.
05:05:42 <kmc> `quote
05:05:44 <HackEgo> 434) <itidus20> monqy: last night in my dreams I saw a false photo album of my childhood... looking ghostly
05:05:46 <kmc> `quote
05:05:48 <HackEgo> 322) <monqy> my most fresh dream is one where I'm at a soup contest and a chicken really wants to participate but he's disqualified so he becomes the judge. when all the soups are done and he's ready to taste them he just stares at the soup and then I become the chicken and I really want to make soup
05:05:49 <kmc> `quote
05:05:50 <HackEgo> 10) <Madelon> 11 holes for me :D
05:05:59 <kmc> `delquote 10
05:06:04 <HackEgo> ​*poof* <Madelon> 11 holes for me :D
05:06:31 <elliott> Gregor: Hmm, I wonder what should start the UMLBoxes, since there's nothing really long-running...
05:06:45 <Gregor> Idonnooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
05:07:06 <elliott> I guess runner.sh could start them actually
05:07:32 <elliott> And they'd just maintain FIFOs in multibot_cmds
05:07:49 <Gregor> *nod*
05:08:47 <kmc> apparently there is a new controversy over whether scotland automatically stays in the EU if it leaves the UK
05:08:52 <kmc> or whether they have to re-apply
05:09:11 <elliott> Hmm
05:09:18 <elliott> Except then it's not clear which FIFO a given process wants to send to
05:10:02 <elliott> Wait, does UMLBox even forward stdin...
05:10:13 <Gregor> It does if you don't explicitly tell it not to.
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05:14:20 <elliott> Hmmmmmmmm I guess I could make the UMLBoxers just create dummy files to signify when they're running
05:14:23 <elliott> Gross though
05:14:38 <oerjan> kmc: i've seen the same problem mentioned regarding catalonia. well that and the fact in their case spain would probably be pissed enough to veto it.
05:14:59 <kmc> interesting
05:15:22 <kmc> can a single state veto another state joining / remaining in the EU?
05:15:33 <oerjan> at least joining
05:15:33 <kmc> it sounds like there is not an established procedure for this
05:15:47 <kmc> for the case of an existing state splitting into two, i mean
05:16:00 <tswett> elliott: you can walk now and you know a couple of words, by the way.
05:16:07 <kmc> seems kind of short-sighted but it may have been a third-rail issue when they were putting together the initial treaties
05:16:14 <tswett> Though as far as I can remember, the only words you know are "tractor", "bye-bye", and "thank you".
05:16:18 <oerjan> indeed. all the splitting states in europe recently did so before any part joined the eu.
05:16:32 <elliott> tswett: Those are the only words I kno
05:16:33 <elliott> w
05:17:02 <Gregor> elliott: You could have a single FIFO to indicate when umlboxen are ready, and every time a new process comes into play, it makes a new umlbox in the background that (eventually) reports on the end of that fifo, then pull out the first one on the fifo.
05:17:04 <oerjan> there _is_ a precedent for only part of a state being a member, though (e.g. greenland)
05:17:27 <kmc> yeah
05:17:59 <elliott> Gregor: Hmm, as in the FIFO would just be a stream of "umlboxer 1 ready", "umlboxer 7 ready", etc.?
05:18:14 <elliott> Not sure why you'd need it to dynamically make new UMLBoxes
05:18:31 <kmc> there are a bunch of weird cases actually http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_member_state_territories_and_the_European_Union
05:18:40 <elliott> I was assuming you'd just have a script that does "spawn a UMLBox, wait for a command on my FIFO, give it that command, wait until it dies, go to step 1"
05:18:40 <Gregor> elliott: It creates a new one so that there's the right number on the queue when it consumes one *shrugs*
05:19:12 <elliott> Hmm, probably I should just write a Python script that maintains all the UMLBox processes itself rather than trying to separate them out at all
05:19:47 <tswett> elliott: also, you don't seem to be aware that you only say "thank you" when someone else gives you something, not when you give someone else something.
05:19:53 <tswett> Oh right, you also know the word "poop".
05:20:03 <elliott> this is just sounding more and more like me
05:20:12 <tswett> And you say it whenever anyone trips over one of those springy doorstops.
05:20:35 <oerjan> tswett: maybe elliott is a buddhist, i hear they do that reverse thanking thing with monks
05:20:41 <shachaf> kmc: You're running unstable now?
05:20:45 <kmc> yes
05:20:46 <shachaf> I thought you were running testing.
05:20:47 <kmc> ish
05:21:05 <kmc> usually what happens is i set up to run testing, but to have the ability to install packages from unstable
05:21:11 <kmc> and then my system gradually becomes unstable
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05:21:17 <elliott> That sounds unsupported.
05:21:28 <kmc> nah it's fine
05:21:28 <elliott> ...I guess so is Debian in general.
05:21:30 <kmc> apt handles it fine
05:21:39 <kmc> except that things in unstable tend to depend on other things in unstable
05:21:48 <kmc> so you end up gradually "upgrading" to unstable
05:23:08 <Fiora> my workplace uses gentoo and I've kind of noticed that happen too
05:23:15 <Fiora> where if I want one unstable thing I end up getting every unstable thing
05:23:29 <Fiora> except with lots of portage blocked packages <_<;
05:25:34 <shachaf> Gentoo isn't good at that.
05:28:56 <kmc> workplace using gentoo, that's interesting
05:29:06 <kmc> i hear it is good if you need a large number of local changes to packages
05:29:13 <elliott> that sounds like hell
05:29:54 <kmc> gentoo does have a way to distribute binary packages right
05:30:34 <shachaf> In my experience Gentoo is good if you like having your package manager incurably broken.
05:30:43 <Fiora> they use ebuilds for a lot of their own programs and keep some specific versions and packages
05:30:47 <Fiora> it's kind of icky though
05:30:53 <Fiora> I think it's partially because a previous sysadmin set it up with gentoo
05:31:04 <kmc> hehe
05:31:32 <Fiora> I'm mainly just not very good with it though
05:32:34 <kmc> maybe when I get my new laptop I should install NixOS instead of Debian
05:33:06 <shachaf> I heard NixOS is actually usable!
05:33:21 <kmc> that's cool
05:33:23 <shachaf> roconnor uses NixOS in hard mode
05:33:26 <kmc> "Actually usable!" -- shachaf
05:33:30 <kmc> they can put that on the DVD box set
05:33:34 <kmc> "hard mode"?
05:33:35 <shachaf> I.e. without /lib
05:33:43 <shachaf> Or /lib64, or whatever it is.
05:33:45 <shachaf> So no /lib64/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2
05:33:47 <kmc> buh
05:34:00 <kmc> where does your ELF interpreter live?
05:34:07 <kmc> that's hard mode because it breaks most linux binarieS?
05:34:15 <shachaf> Yes.
05:34:17 <shachaf> I don't know.
05:34:23 <shachaf> /nix/store/something?
05:34:40 <shachaf> They have a tool for patching ELF files to refer to it.
05:35:31 <kmc> good times
05:35:47 <kmc> and this is better than symlinking?
05:36:12 <elliott> kmc: you have to patch ELFs anyway
05:36:15 <elliott> for the actual libraries
05:36:24 <shachaf> You could symlink those too.
05:36:29 <elliott> not really
05:36:32 <elliott> it doesn't work like that
05:36:35 * elliott has read the Nix/NixOS papers
05:36:38 <shachaf> Well, you *could*.
05:36:42 <shachaf> But it would cause problems.
05:36:42 <elliott> they are very very good at getting unix to do something it doesn't want to do at all
05:36:48 <elliott> shachaf: yes if you don't care about the whole point of nix...
05:36:57 <elliott> I mean it does the symlink thing to a degree
05:37:04 <shachaf> I think some people do it and it works ish.
05:37:42 <kmc> aren't most shared libs referred to by filename only and not path?
05:39:03 <shachaf> Maybe I'm wrong about this "hard mode" thing and it's the regular thing.
05:39:17 <shachaf> roconnor said it was a thing he chooses to do, or something like that, I think.
05:39:25 <shachaf> kmc: You should try NixOS and tell me if it's good!
05:39:27 <kmc> ok
05:39:40 <kmc> perhaps NixOS will fix my X1 Carbon power management problems
05:40:20 <ais523> hey, is this edit vandalism, or mistake correction?: http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Brainfuck_algorithms&diff=35029&oldid=34951
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05:40:29 <ais523> too tired to really think about it right now
05:41:12 <kmc> shachaf: did I tell you my laptop shipped finally?
05:41:15 <kmc> and it will not be free :/
05:41:29 <shachaf> kmc: Oh no!
05:41:31 <shachaf> You should sue them.
05:42:44 <elliott> ais523: oh right
05:42:48 <elliott> ais523:
05:42:49 <elliott> (diff | hist) . . Talk:Emmental‎; 15:40 . . (-29,247)‎ . . ‎Chris Pressey (Talk | contribs | block)‎ (move Talk:Mascarpone discussion to Talk:Mascarpone) [rollback]
05:42:52 <elliott> (diff | hist) . . N Talk:Mascarpone‎; 15:39 . . (+29,446)‎ . . ‎Chris Pressey (Talk | contribs | block)‎ (move Talk:Mascarpone discussion to Talk:Mascarpone)
05:42:55 <elliott> is there a way to keep the histories somehow
05:43:07 <elliott> 05:37:42 <kmc> aren't most shared libs referred to by filename only and not path?
05:43:16 <elliott> kmc: with nix you always want everything to refer to an exact version
05:43:23 <elliott> that's basically the point
05:43:34 <elliott> stuff directly knows where all its dependencies are and there's no "resolution"
05:43:52 <elliott> also they do some really wild hacks to get builds repeatable so the hashes are consistent
05:43:59 <elliott> like with timestamps and stuff
05:44:14 <kmc> ok
05:44:27 <elliott> the thing with nixos is that you need the packaging to be really good
05:44:38 <elliott> because you want to do the configuration of all your software in the actual nix language
05:44:45 <elliott> and it generates the config files from that
05:44:45 <kmc> hm right
05:44:48 <kmc> shit
05:45:05 <elliott> i mean i think you can just tell it "make a config file with this and expand the paths"
05:45:11 <elliott> but you don't get as much coolness ;p
05:45:12 <elliott> *:p
05:46:42 <elliott> kmc: also I think you are locked-in to upstart as the init system
05:46:47 <elliott> which is a shame because I don't like upstart
05:47:22 <kmc> that sucks
05:47:25 <elliott> all that said their tech is so advanced that it's hard for me to consider all other package managers as anything more than broken
05:47:45 <elliott> not sure I'd actually use the OS but they really do just get so many problems right
05:47:48 <kmc> cool
05:48:01 <kmc> it sounds like if this actually works well, it would eliminate the need for programs like puppet and chef
05:48:23 <kmc> which basically try to apply a declarative configuration description on top of a conventional distribution
05:48:36 <elliott> kmc: yeah you can do things like make nix create a livecd of your current system
05:48:40 <elliott> or rollback to the configuration you used 3 days ago
05:48:46 <elliott> or start your current configuration in qemu
05:48:51 <kmc> yeah
05:48:52 <elliott> they have tools to do this automatically
05:48:54 <kmc> that's very cool
05:48:55 <elliott> all declarative
05:50:01 <kmc> i have a feeling learning this will make me hate using debian and puppet at work
05:50:08 <kmc> in the way that learning haskell will make one hate using python at work
05:50:31 <shachaf> Do you hate using Python at work?
05:51:11 <kmc> not really
05:51:15 <kmc> i hate some aspects of it
05:51:34 <kmc> but i would hate some aspects of using haskell and ghc as well
05:53:02 <kmc> right now i am very annoyed that there's no reasonable way to set a timeout on a function call
05:53:19 <kmc> can't use SIGALRM because we are already forced to use python's shitty threads
05:53:24 <kmc> can't use python's shitty threads because they are shitty
05:53:28 <kmc> but we have been through this here before
05:54:19 <shachaf> "I'm a programmer, and my tools hate me... and I hate them. And they hate me for hating them and I hate them for hating me. And we hate each other. And that's because none of us got enough hate in our childhood."
05:54:30 <kmc> ...
05:56:03 <kmc> !!!
05:56:19 <kmc> to be fair I like a lot of things about python as well
05:56:39 <kmc> python and javascript are two of the better languages that you can reliably get paid to use
05:56:47 <Bike> shachaf: is this the beginning to your romance novel
05:58:26 <Fiora> he will find his true love, a programming language he doesn't hate
05:58:38 <elliott> kmc already found that
05:58:39 <elliott> everyone found that
05:58:40 <elliott> it's @
05:59:57 <shachaf> lambdabot: @ is great, isn't it?
05:59:58 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: . ? @ activity activity-full admin all-dicts arr ask b52s babel bf bid botsnack brain bug check choice-add choose clear-messages compose devils dice dict dict-help djinn djinn-add
06:00:00 <lambdabot> djinn-clr djinn-del djinn-env djinn-names djinn-ver do docs dummy easton echo elements elite eval fact fact-cons fact-delete fact-set fact-snoc fact-update faq farber flush foldoc forget fortune
06:00:02 <lambdabot> fptools free freshname ft gazetteer get-shapr ghc girl19 google googleit gsite gwiki hackage help hitchcock hoogle hoogle+ id ignore index instances instances-importing irc-connect jargon join karma
06:00:04 <lambdabot> karma+ karma- karma-all keal kind learn leave let list listall listchans listmodules listservers localtime localtime-reply lojban map messages messages? more msg nazi-off nazi-on nixon oeis offline
06:00:06 <lambdabot> oldwiki palomer part paste ping pl pl-resume pointful pointless pointy poll-add poll-close poll-list poll-remove poll-result poll-show pretty print-notices protontorpedo purge-notices quit quote rc
06:00:08 <lambdabot> read reconnect remember repoint run shootout show slap smack source spell spell-all src tell thank you thanks thx ticker time todo todo-add todo-delete topic-cons topic-init topic-null topic-snoc
06:00:10 <lambdabot> topic-tail topic-tell type undefine undo unlambda unmtl unpf unpl unpointless uptime url v vera version vote web1913 what where where+ wiki wn world02 yarr yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw yow
06:00:20 <kmc> @yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw
06:00:20 <lambdabot> Just 'J'
06:00:22 <kmc> @yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw
06:00:22 <lambdabot> Exception: <<loop>>
06:00:24 <kmc> @yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw
06:00:24 <lambdabot> "\"#$%&'()*+,\""
06:00:27 <kmc> ^^^^^ best command ever
06:00:33 <Bike> is this what death feels like
06:00:47 <kmc> either that or sex
06:01:11 <Bike> @help yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw
06:01:12 <lambdabot> V RETURNS!
06:01:15 <Bike> noted
06:04:03 <nortti> remember rembember, the fifth of november...
06:06:37 <kmc> @yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw
06:06:38 <lambdabot> "\"#$%&'()*+,\""
06:06:52 <kmc> so do you want to know the story behind @yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw
06:07:06 * Fiora is curious
06:07:36 <kmc> i guess once upon a time, lambdabot evaluated things in an implicit "let v = ..."
06:07:47 <kmc> but people started to refer to 'v' within those expressions and got crazy results
06:07:53 <kmc> so 'v' was renamed to 'yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw'
06:08:43 <Fiora> was that just like, a random keyboardsmash
06:08:43 <Fiora> ?
06:08:48 <kmc> beats me
06:08:49 <elliott> let's hope: yes
06:09:30 <Bike> @yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw
06:09:30 <lambdabot> Just 'J'
06:09:43 <kmc> anyway these commands relive some of the strange results people got
06:10:06 <Bike> Juan: i think they just mean the cgi, because otherwise, wtf
06:10:09 <Bike> erm.
06:10:12 <Bike> @yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw
06:10:12 <lambdabot> "\""
06:11:05 <elliott> hi, Juan
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06:12:54 <kmc> Just 'Juan'
06:13:16 <Bike> it was intentional, i swear
06:15:59 <oerjan> if ju say so
06:16:56 <zzo38> So can you refer to 'yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw' within those expressions?
06:17:26 <Bike> > yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw
06:17:28 <lambdabot> Not in scope: `yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw'
06:17:29 <oerjan> that was the whole point
06:17:32 <Bike> :(
06:18:17 <Bike> zzo38: you were the one dealing with TeX demimicrons, right?
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06:18:27 <zzo38> Bike: Yes
06:18:37 <Bike> http://www.math.upenn.edu/~wilf/website/dek.pdf this is for you, then
06:22:06 <zzo38> I did write one letter to Knuth, a year ago, I think. I did use TeX, and I use TeX for all of my typesetting stuff actually, but I did not use PDF. I did get someone to deliver it, though (it was addressed correctly, but I knew someone who was going to be near there, so he delivered it to Knuth's office).
06:22:47 <zzo38> I did include the return address too. However, I have not received a reply. Well, it doesn't matter; it is not particularly important.
06:23:43 <zzo38> It is the same address you can find by WHOIS on my domain name, but my name is Aaron Black, and ignore the telephone number and email and so on since none of those are mine; but the postal address will reach me if mail is sent there.
06:25:13 <zzo38> Just so you know, that is one way to contact me. Of course you can use the IRC and wiki talk pages but postal mail can be used too.
06:26:03 <zzo38> And if it is postal mail I am guaranteed to receive it as soon as it arrives (not as soon as it is sent); with the computer of course it is just whenever I check, which might or might not be faster.
06:50:02 <zzo38> Is SourceForge broke?
06:52:56 <elliott> I hear it's down.
06:54:16 <shachaf> Was your letter a bug report?
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06:56:39 <zzo38> shachaf: I do not remember what it was.
06:56:59 <shachaf> I once emailed a bug report and got a reply.
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06:58:51 <zzo38> Wikipedia also seems broke.
06:59:13 <zzo38> Maybe they upgraded something wrong?
06:59:26 <Fiora> wikipedia works okay here
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06:59:56 <zzo38> On my computer it broke.
07:00:38 <zzo38> What is the DocBook command for URL?
07:07:29 <zzo38> I think I figure out
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07:15:33 <fizzie> It's the CS bachelor's thesis presentation day today; one of them peoples has done a thing on FM synthesis of sounds on a GPU.
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07:16:26 <Bike> fun.
07:18:01 <fizzie> Sadly, that one is in the other session.
07:18:40 <fizzie> Mine just has things like MultipathTCP.
07:22:57 <elliott> kmc: Should I add a swap pratition?
07:23:01 <elliott> total used free shared buffers cached
07:23:01 <elliott> Mem: 3792 3684 107 0 0 146
07:23:01 <elliott> -/+ buffers/cache: 3538 253
07:23:01 <elliott> Swap: 0 0 0
07:23:03 <elliott> *partition
07:23:09 <elliott> My computer is kind of laggy. All the time.
07:35:35 <fizzie> You should use less memory.
07:35:50 <fizzie> Start by dropping X, I think that'll help.
07:36:11 <fizzie> (Also any X clients you might be running.)
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07:46:09 <zzo38_> I did play Dungeons&Dragons game.
07:47:57 <zzo38_> We were on a spiral staircase. It is dark (I can see in dark, they can't), but I did not want to light up since they would then see us; instead we hold each other's hand.
07:50:21 <zzo38_> We found the door with magic runes and eventually managed to get in.
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07:51:25 <zzo38_> Do you like this yet?
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07:53:08 <fizzie> It sounds very dramatic.
07:57:25 <zzo38_> The king is inside.
07:58:05 <zzo38_> He is glad his royal wizard is there, and he is glad Isolde is there, but he is not as glad that I am there.
07:58:20 <elliott> that is beautiful
07:58:27 <zzo38_> We have to escape, perhaps through the barred window, but some people outside are going to break the door...
07:58:37 <zzo38_> Nevertheless, I have idea: R-KB1!!
08:03:17 <zzo38_> What is *your* idea???
08:03:46 <kmc> http://thoughtcatalog.com/2012/how-to-hack-chipotle/
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08:23:55 <Fiora> kmc: that sounds like a bad idea considering that those burritos feel like they're about ready to explode as is XD
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08:29:10 <fizzie> kmc's idea is to serve the king some chipotle?
08:29:23 <fizzie> It sounds not necessarily helpful.
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08:37:45 <zzo38_> When I am using 7-Zip to list an executable it mentions two files with the same name.
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08:48:24 <zzo38_> I can extract the .rsrc which seems to be the resource data, however neither 7-Zip nor Resource Editor is capable of loading that file.
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09:46:16 <elliott> @tell oerjan okay I fixed the /// thing
09:46:17 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
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10:04:12 <elliott> okay so
10:04:20 <elliott> turns out my esolang wiki deployment strat is totally fucked when they up the major version
10:04:34 <elliott> does anyone have any suggestions other than cry a lil
10:04:39 <elliott> i accept "cry a lot"
10:05:22 <elliott> also
10:05:24 <elliott> GUYS
10:05:26 <elliott> I REALLY FUCKING HATE PHP
10:05:28 <elliott> HOLY SHIT
10:05:29 <quintopia> cry a moderate amount and flail alot
10:05:50 <elliott> im too tired to flail
10:05:57 <elliott> i can only manage crushing despair
10:06:04 <quintopia> sleep then flail later
10:06:17 <elliott> how can I sleep when esolang is outdated
10:06:24 <quintopia> hmmm
10:06:33 <quintopia> i cant answer that question
10:06:37 <quintopia> i amnt sleeping myself
10:06:43 <quintopia> and should have been hours ago
10:07:13 <elliott> like
10:07:28 <elliott> I honestly want to write a wiki that recreates MW's functionality and interface
10:07:32 <elliott> from scratch
10:07:33 <elliott> just so I don't have to maintain this installation
10:07:43 <elliott> you have to keep the fucking config and data files in the same directory as the code it's the worst thing ever
10:07:51 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Ehird/upgrading
10:07:53 <elliott> ad-hoccest shit ever
10:07:55 <shachaf> elliott: cry forever
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10:08:27 <shachaf> elliott: Don't upgrade.
10:08:31 <shachaf> Retro.
10:09:51 <elliott> retro security holes
10:10:25 <Jafet> Run it in a VM like HackEgo
10:10:30 <Jafet> Run it in HackEgo
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10:13:18 <elliott> maybe I should just run esolang on git mediawiki...
10:13:20 <elliott> what could go wrong
10:13:29 <elliott> `welcome Snowyowl
10:13:33 <HackEgo> Snowyowl: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
10:14:00 <Snowyowl> ta very much
10:14:29 <shachaf> `run sed -i 's/ and deployment//' wisdom/welcome
10:14:32 <HackEgo> No output.
10:14:37 <elliott> `revert
10:14:39 <HackEgo> Done.
10:14:41 <elliott> I don't think you know what that's referencing.
10:14:42 <shachaf> `run sed -i 's/ and deployment//' wisdom/welcome
10:14:45 <HackEgo> No output.
10:15:07 <shachaf> What is it referencing?
10:15:37 <Jafet> `run stat wisdom/welcome
10:15:38 <HackEgo> ​ File: `wisdom/welcome' \ Size: 233 Blocks: 8 IO Block: 1024 regular file \ Device: 10h/16dInode: 767424 Links: 1 \ Access: (0644/-rw-r--r--) Uid: ( 5000/ UNKNOWN) Gid: ( 5000/ UNKNOWN) \ Access: 2012-12-11 10:14:59.000000000 +0000 \ Modify: 2012-12-11 10:14:58.000000000 +0000 \ Change: 2012-12-11 10:14:58.000000000
10:15:58 <shachaf> If it's a good reference I'll keep it.
10:17:29 <Jafet> `run ls wisdom
10:17:30 <HackEgo> ​? \ ☃ \ 🐐 \ ais523 \ atriq \ augur \ banach-tarski \ boily \ bonvenon \ c \ cakeprophet \ category \ coffee \ comonad \ coppro \ egobot \ elliott \ endofunctor \ england \ esoteric \ europe \ everyone \ finland \ finnish \ finns \ fizzie \ flower \ freefull \ friendship \ functor \ fungot \ gaspacho \ gazpacho \ glogbot \ gregor \ hackego \
10:19:04 <Jafet> `banach-tarski
10:19:05 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: banach-tarski: not found
10:19:14 <Jafet> `cat wisdom/banach-tarski
10:19:15 <HackEgo> ​"Banach-Tarski" is an anagram of "Banach-Tarski Banach-Tarski".
10:21:29 <Snowyowl> recursion is an anagram of recursion
10:23:09 <shachaf> Snowyowl: Hang on...
10:23:11 <shachaf> JUST A MINUTE
10:23:24 <shachaf> Is your nick "Snowy owl" or "Snow yowl"?????
10:23:28 <Snowyowl> yes
10:23:31 <shachaf> WHICH ONE
10:23:34 <shachaf> this is important
10:24:16 <Snowyowl> not sure, how does OR work on strings?
10:24:52 <Snowyowl> "Snowy owl" or "Snow yowl" == "Snowyyowl" bitwise
10:24:54 <Snowyowl> i think
10:25:28 <Snowyowl> damn, I was hoping to make a witty but ambiguous answer there and failed terribly. It's "Snowy owl"
10:25:50 <shachaf> > chr $ ord 'y' .|. ord ' '
10:25:52 <lambdabot> 'y'
10:26:14 <Jafet> Stop being a .|.
10:26:42 <shachaf> .&.
10:26:47 <Snowyowl> ._.
10:27:05 <shachaf> Surely you mean ·_·
10:27:48 <Snowyowl> No I don't, and stop calling my Shirley.
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13:33:39 <Sgeo|web> elliott: Phantom_Hoover Fiora: Did coppro ever use the chance to beat me? There was an update a significant number of hours ago
13:33:56 <Sgeo|web> 10 hours ago I think
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13:37:48 <fizzie> If you keep doing that competitive thing, it's just going to lead to someone having a bot push the RSS in here sooner or later.
13:40:24 <Sgeo|web> I think only coppro is thinking of it competitively. And not really taking it seriously
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13:57:08 <fizzie> In other news, some SNES games? http://www.ebay.com/itm/300830169972 (It's the BSNES guy.)
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14:22:41 <Arc_Koen> en fait, ça me choue de dire "dédié aux mathématiques et ses applications" : si c'est "les" mathématiques, c ça doit être "leurs" applications
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14:27:37 <boily> bon matin!
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14:35:40 <Snowyowl> salut
14:36:17 <Snowyowl> hey why are there three esolangs that are "a file whose length is the base-2 representation of a Brainfuck program"
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14:37:07 <Snowyowl> it's not like they're even usable for anything
14:41:55 <fizzie> Maybe you don't have sparse file support and have a lot of disk space to get rid of?
14:45:11 <Snowyowl> that part makes sense
14:45:26 <Snowyowl> I just don't see why we need more than one such language
14:46:44 <fizzie> Clearly not a good argument for intelligent design, that's for sure.
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14:55:08 <Arc_Koen> Snowyowl: I believe what we need is a better referencement of brainfuck derivatives
14:55:46 <Arc_Koen> "WARNING: This may have already been thought of by a couple other well-thinking enthusiasts before you."
14:56:41 <Arc_Koen> I think we also have 2 or 3 identical "turing tarpits" with two instructions, "no-op" and "execute", that both make a so-called 'wheel' of brainfuck instructions spin
14:57:16 <Arc_Koen> (for instance ! means > and .! means < and ..! means + etc.)
14:59:16 <fizzie> Braincrash and what else?
15:00:13 <fizzie> Ellipsis, MGIFOS and Unary are all Unary, I suppose.
15:00:29 <fizzie> Bus-catching. ->
15:20:01 <Fiora> Sgeo|web: competitive homestuck-update notifications is just. you're ridiculous XD
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15:25:12 <Snowyowl> homestuck updated?
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15:27:18 <Fiora> 05:33 < Sgeo|web> elliott: Phantom_Hoover Fiora: Did coppro ever use the chance to beat me? There was an update a significant number of hours ago
15:27:21 <Fiora> 05:33 < Sgeo|web> 10 hours ago I think
15:27:28 <Fiora> (that was the context)
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16:07:24 <ion> Meanwhile in Finland: architecture https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/425714_10151235714854681_575729566_n.jpg
16:09:13 <Snowyowl> Tchernobyl is in Finland?
16:09:36 <nortti> no
16:12:58 <kmc> heh
16:13:00 <fizzie> Hervanta is where Tampere's cheap clone of a "technical university" (Tampere University of Technology) student housing is.
16:13:12 <fizzie> I've bought a tape deck from one of those buildings.
16:15:28 <fizzie> 3% of people of Hervanta live in a single building, according to Wikipedia.
16:15:47 <fizzie> (Okay, a single "student housing complex".)
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17:05:41 <oerjan> @messages
17:05:41 <lambdabot> elliott said 7h 19m 26s ago: okay I fixed the /// thing
17:05:44 <oerjan> EEK
17:08:40 <fizzie> Are you trying to program in Ook! there? I think you made a mistake.
17:08:58 <oerjan> OK.
17:09:15 <fizzie> Are you trying to say "OKAY"? I think you made a mistake.
17:09:21 <quintopia> no
17:09:31 <quintopia> he was still trying to program in ook
17:09:33 <quintopia> but
17:09:36 <quintopia> again a failure
17:09:40 <fizzie> Oh, I see!
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17:58:02 <kmc> TIL that AMZN has a P:E ratio of over 3,000
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18:07:31 <ion> poop:excrement?
18:08:01 <fizzie> That's a lot of poop.
18:08:08 <fizzie> Or relatively little excrement, I suppose.
18:11:27 <kmc> yes
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18:46:57 <zzo38> Do you know what time the winter solstice is this year? I calculated it on my computer
18:48:16 <olsner> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_solstice ?
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18:48:48 <zzo38> There is Wikipedia article of it, but I can calculate it on my computer, without Wikipedia.
18:49:52 <olsner> hmm, you just wanted to know whether or not we knew it?
18:49:52 <zzo38> It says at 3:11 AM in my time zone, at December 21.
18:50:03 <olsner> I didn't know before I looked it up
18:50:07 <zzo38> Julian Day = 2456282.9666
18:50:36 <zzo38> Well, Wikipedia will tell you but why don't you calculate it on your own computer? I think even on the day before, they even said it on the news on television
18:51:50 <olsner> the main reason I don't calculate it myself is that I'm not interested in knowing when the solstice is
18:52:13 <fizzie> olsner: But it's CRUCIAL INFORMATION. How do you go grocery shopping without knowing that?
18:52:20 <zzo38> O, you don't want to celebrate the solstice either?
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18:53:06 <zzo38> I don't think it is going to affect grocery shopping much, but it does affect the amount of sunlight, and so on
18:53:24 <olsner> fizzie: grocery shopping? I just use my replicator
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18:57:05 <olsner> well, christmas is pretty much the winter solstice but with an easier-to-calculate date
18:57:11 <olsner> that and EVIL COMMERCIALISM
18:57:36 <zzo38> I think when they decided that date it was the winter solstice at approximately that time.
18:58:58 <elliott> 13:37:48 <fizzie> If you keep doing that competitive thing, it's just going to lead to someone having a bot push the RSS in here sooner or later.
18:59:04 <elliott> fizzie: That would be convenient because it could be ignored.
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18:59:31 <olsner> nice timestamp
18:59:40 <olsner> what's the "competitive thing"?
18:59:42 <elliott> I like how I caused oerjan tons of work.
19:02:03 <fizzie> olsner: Competitive Homestuck update announcements.
19:02:23 <fizzie> olsner: I hear it's supposed to be in the next Olympics.
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19:12:17 <kmc> http://twitter.com/SeinfeldToday
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19:14:32 <Bike> «Jerry discovers Newman is secretly an Internet famous fan fiction writer. George gets aroused reading 50 Shades of Gray, questions self.»
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20:21:36 <zzo38> Do you have program to play Impulse Tracker instrument that can be made into Csound plugins?
20:28:09 <fizzie> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMDp3A7aZeY "Description: i love fizzie the best of them all"
20:28:16 <elliott> me too.
20:28:33 <fizzie> I didn't really realize I was an aquapet.
20:28:43 <elliott> this looks pretty much how i imagine fizzie to be irl
20:28:46 <nortti> :D
20:29:30 <elliott> "What a strange noise"
20:29:32 <elliott> "it makes me not want fizzie. its loud and annoying."
20:29:36 <elliott> poor fizzie
20:29:47 <elliott> i mean, sure, he's loud and annoying but do you have to say it outright like that
20:30:01 <elliott> it is not his fault he was born a speech recognition researcher
20:30:29 <nortti> :D
20:30:52 <fizzie> Speech recognition researches are born, not made.
20:30:56 <elliott> ps does this mean fizzie searches youtube for himself
20:31:55 <fizzie> We're e-stalking my wife's coworker's new boyfriend, via his IRC nick/anime website profile/okcupid profile; I just thought I'd see what I get with my nick.
20:32:11 <nortti> why?
20:32:13 <fizzie> It's fortunately a common enough word; no me-related results in the ten first pages.
20:32:27 <fizzie> You know, just to pass the time.
20:32:33 <nortti> ok
20:34:15 <elliott> (I think fizzie is planning to murder him.)
20:35:06 <fizzie> The anime-watching website's statistics said he's watched like two-three thousand episodes of the stuff.
20:35:31 <elliott> "the stuff"
20:35:34 <Fiora> how bad/good is his taste?
20:35:51 <fizzie> Fiora: I don't know, the site doesn't rate that automatically.
20:36:25 * Fiora imagines a site that uses k-means clustering to categorize anime fans
20:36:33 <nortti> fizzie: what is "the stuff"?
20:36:40 <Fiora> "mecha fan" "yaoi fangirl" "moe otaku" "pedophile" etc
20:36:53 <fizzie> Fiora: I'm sure some of them do clustering.
20:37:11 <Fiora> http://www.tsurupeta.info/content/anison-classification-from-unsupervised-lexical-clustering is what made me think of it
20:37:59 <fizzie> Perhaps I should do what our people always do and make a SOM out of it. Except I don't have a database dump from an animu site.
20:38:09 <Fiora> SOM?
20:38:24 <nortti> fizzie: copypaste and format trough awk/perl
20:38:25 <fizzie> Self-organizing maps. They're kind of what our department is most famous for.
20:38:30 <Fiora> what do those do?
20:39:32 <fizzie> It's a kind of a dimensionality reduction trick, from one point of view.
20:39:38 <fizzie> Oh, just read the intro of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-organizing_map
20:39:56 <fizzie> Quite often you end up with 2D maps with recognizable clusters, anyway.
20:40:10 <Fiora> ooooh
20:40:30 <elliott> fizzie: you once made one of those of the channel right
20:41:04 <elliott> fizzie: Did you ever make something that analysis the logs and builds a model that can predict who is most likely to have said a given line on the channel?
20:41:10 <elliott> that sounds right up your alley and also cool
20:41:15 <elliott> *analyses
20:41:32 <nortti> that would certainly be interesting
20:41:50 <fizzie> I did two different very preliminary experimets re stuff like that, but never anything terribly finished.
20:42:02 <elliott> was it any good?
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20:42:18 <fizzie> One with our book author classification course project SOM thing, and another with just a SVM classifier.
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20:42:48 <fizzie> No; it was using the statistical features, you need a lot of text to get sensible estimates of those.
20:42:48 <elliott> more like self-organising crap am I right
20:42:57 <elliott> fizzie: #esoteric is pretty old!!
20:43:02 <Fiora> how does SOM compare to k-means stuff?
20:44:00 <fizzie> elliott: Oh, sure; it works reasonably if you take like a thousand lines from each speaker and use statistics from those as samples. But it's not as nice as the "guess an author for each line independently" trick.
20:44:27 <fizzie> Fiora: If you want to judge his taste, this was his "completed" series list: http://sprunge.us/YPcM
20:44:38 <elliott> fizzie: well I don't care how you do it, I just want something that takes a line and says it's n% chance to be fizzie, m% chance to be elliott elliott, ...
20:44:56 <Fiora> woooow @_@
20:44:57 <Fiora> that's a huge list
20:46:12 <elliott> "elliott elliott"
20:46:13 <elliott> go me
20:46:13 <fizzie> Fiora: And SOM's not exactly a clustering algorithm per se, it's kind of more like something like other manifold learning algorithms, it finds a low-dimensional (usually 2D) manifold from the input data, minimizing something.
20:46:32 <Fiora> so it kind of finds a simple model for the data?
20:46:44 <zzo38> fizzie: Do they have "uncompleted" series lists too?
20:46:44 <fizzie> Like, uh, naximum variance unfolding or something.
20:46:52 <elliott> I think fizzie is just making up words.
20:47:19 <fizzie> zzo38: They have "watching", "completed", "dropped" and "plan to watch". (But the other three were shorter.)
20:47:51 <fizzie> 6 "watching", 365 "completed", 4 "dropped", 43 "plan to watch".
20:48:04 <fizzie> Fiora: And yes, you could say it finds a simple model for the data.
20:48:07 <Fiora> that list has everything from near-porn seinen shows to shoujo
20:48:33 <Fiora> and shonen like fullmetal alchemist and ... gosh that's a lot of anime
20:48:37 <Fiora> I think I've watched... like... 15
20:49:08 <fizzie> And sorry, I misremembered: the "completed" list is about 5700 episodes. (A hundred days' worth.)
20:50:17 <zzo38> The anime I like to watched included Akagi, Kaiji, Death Note, etc
20:50:36 <nortti> anime I like to watch includes Another, Mirain
20:50:50 <nortti> +Nikki, Higurashi and Umineko
20:50:58 <nortti> *Mirai
20:51:09 <nortti> figure out what you want
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20:51:42 * Fiora knows only one person who ha a longer list than that, and she's watched about 500
20:52:19 <fizzie> Fiora: Basically a SOM just takes a (usually) 2D grid and then schmoogles it into the data space in such a way that it tries to cover the distribution of the training data well; it's essentially figuring out a vector quantization codebook for the data. Then you can use it e.g. for classification by labeling the grid nodes and doing some nearest-node/nearest-neighbourhood stuff. Or just ...
20:52:25 <fizzie> ... visualize things; the "u-matrix" (average distance between a node and its neighbours) is often plotted, it will show "borders" around clear clusters.
20:55:37 <fizzie> Like uh this I pasted a while ago, https://dl.dropbox.com/u/113389132/Misc/girls_on_top.png -- that there is a u-matrix.
20:56:06 <Bike> Why hexes?
20:56:21 <fizzie> It's just traditionally a hex grid. You can do rectangular too.
20:56:26 <nortti> fizzie: why name like that?
20:56:33 * elliott wonders about the filename.
20:57:09 <fizzie> nortti, elliott: The red dots (female authors) are plotted on top of blue dots (male authors) when there happen to be books from authors of both genders in the same SOM cell.
20:57:15 <nortti> ok
20:57:17 <fizzie> (There's a boys_on_top.png there too.)
20:58:08 <fizzie> The size of a dot represents the count of books from authors of that gender that are closest to where that particular grid node is in the feature space.
20:58:15 <Fiora> what features is it charting?
20:58:17 <Bike> mm, i was wondering if it was for more connections between nodes or whatever
20:58:32 <fizzie> So regions of reds are where there are a lot of books by female authors.
20:59:02 <Fiora> but like, what features determine where in the chart the dots go?
20:59:18 <fizzie> And the background color shows the average distance between a node and its neighbours in the feature space, so you can see that the green cluster is separated by a really large gap.
20:59:28 <fizzie> There were some sixty of them.
20:59:32 <fizzie> They're really quite boring.
20:59:53 <fizzie> Word, phrase, sentence lengths, stuff like that.
21:00:22 <Fiora> ahhhh, so the text of the books
21:00:27 <Fiora> what's green?
21:00:37 <fizzie> Neither male nor female. :p
21:00:54 <Fiora> genderqueer I suppose?
21:00:58 <fizzie> There's the human genome project "book" and some US tax database thing.
21:01:06 <Fiora> Oh, so no listed authors or something?
21:01:09 <fizzie> This was on Project Gutenberg data.
21:01:18 <fizzie> No listed author we could determine a gender for.
21:01:23 <Fiora> ah, I see
21:01:29 <fizzie> I have a feature list here somewhere, where did I put it.
21:02:03 <fizzie> http://p.zem.fi/esomap-feats I think they're the same as these.
21:02:33 <Fiora> ooh, so SOM can effectively cluster/organize a gazillion different features?
21:02:36 <fizzie> The "chars per word (N)"s are histogram bins of the chars-per-word histogram; the (mean) and (variance) ones are, well, sample mean and variance.
21:03:09 <fizzie> It would be a rather bad dimensionality reduction tool if it couldn't. (Though I have a feeling people might still sometimes do like a PCA first instead of using raw features, maybe?)
21:03:27 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
21:03:40 <Fiora> I mean, like, K-means isn't really good at that is it?
21:04:06 <fizzie> Possibly not. It suffers a bit from the curse of dimensionality.
21:04:30 <fizzie> But they're not strictly speaking exclusive alternatives; you could do K-means on the data as mapped to the SOM space.
21:05:12 <fizzie> The specific word lists (she+her+hers+herself etc.) are things that an early gender-specific-features-of-written-language paper listed as having good class separability.
21:05:25 <fizzie> And the nouns/verbs/adjectives/adverbs features are pure cheating.
21:06:05 <Fiora> I remember seeing those word lists in gender text classifier things online
21:06:10 <Fiora> but gosh were they /bad/
21:06:21 <Bike> "feels": highly feminine
21:06:29 <Fiora> it reminds me of when I took AI class and we did sentiment classification
21:06:33 <Fiora> and like, 70% accurate was considered amazingly good
21:06:59 <fizzie> It just assigns a POS tag like that based on whether the word in question has higher occurrancy count in WordNet for senses in that particular category; it doesn't try to do parsing, or even any context-dependency at all.
21:08:29 * elliott can't help but expand POS differently
21:09:34 <Fiora> were you able to get like, a % accuracy on gender detection (i.e. train on half the data set, test on the other half)?
21:09:42 <Fiora> or was that not what this does
21:10:17 <fizzie> Fiora: With 10-fold crossvalidation, our SOM clustering thing on Gutenberg data got average gender classification accuracy of 87%; but that's a misleading result, since you get 86% by guessing all-male since the data set is that biased. Average class accuracy (that is, average of the accuracy for males and for females) was 75%. But it really wasn't tuned for classification all that much.
21:10:32 <Fiora> ah
21:11:00 <impomatic> Can anyone recommend a build-a-robot kit?
21:11:02 <Fiora> pfff, the getting 87% by guessing all male. that reminds me of the "weather forecast" that consists of guessing that tomorrow will be the same as today
21:11:07 <Fiora> and is nearly as accurate as actual wather forecasts
21:11:07 <kmc> impomatic: what kind of robot?
21:11:18 <kmc> Fiora: haha
21:11:22 <elliott> Fiora: wasn't that weather thing done in like arizona or something
21:11:29 <elliott> I can't imagine the weather changes much in arizona
21:11:36 <Fiora> I'm not sure
21:11:41 <elliott> it is pretty great though
21:11:48 <impomatic> kmc: Just something as a Christmas gift... preferably requiring soldering etc.
21:11:56 <fizzie> Fiora: Author attribution accuracy for Gutenberg with our 292-author set (so baseline guess-most-likely of 2.7%) was 39%, so it was certainly better than random guessing, which was pretty much what our goals were; I mean, it was just a project-work thing.
21:12:08 <Fiora> http://weather.slimyhorror.com/ this was for cambridge
21:12:11 <Fiora> I think
21:13:09 <elliott> "I'm making the assumption that predicting today's weather is dead simple, so the BBC couldn't possibly get this wrong."
21:13:12 <elliott> I think this person must be new to the BBC.
21:13:34 <elliott> (ok I admit I just wanted to take a jab at the BBC for no reason and have no real basis)
21:14:33 <elliott> hey fizzie
21:14:36 <elliott> wanna upgrade the wiki for me
21:15:07 <fizzie> Fiora: http://zem.fi/~fis/esoconfnf.png is a confusion matrix for an #esoteric experiment with a "standard" SVM classifier on those same raw features, and maybe some further tweaks, I think using something like "each sample is a snippet of thousand lines from the particular person". It does well for some, less well for others.
21:15:28 <fizzie> elliott: Not really, no.
21:15:39 <elliott> fizzie: ok i have an idea
21:15:41 <elliott> how about reconsider
21:15:52 <elliott> and upgrade the wiki for me instead??
21:16:18 <Fiora> interesting, 'ihope' didn't get a very solid recognizing
21:16:26 <fizzie> Noooo. In fact, I think I have a pressing appointment and need to leave and go do important stuff real soon.
21:16:36 <Fiora> that's very cool though, it can tell you /which/ author wrote something if you have some other text from them
21:17:08 <elliott> fizzie: you're irresponsible :(
21:17:20 <elliott> what if someone exploits the security bugs in the current version
21:17:25 <elliott> and deletes all the brainfuck derivatives
21:17:30 <fizzie> Fiora: With those features, though, it can't really tell you anything about who wrote a single comment, you need to collect quite a lot of it.
21:17:45 <Fiora> wait, if it can't tell you anything, then why the cofidence in that confusion matrix?
21:17:53 <Fiora> or am I missing something
21:18:04 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/0L um, don't we already have literally this exact same language already
21:18:23 <fizzie> Fiora: Because "each sample is a snippet of thousand lines from the particular person". As in, the features are computed from a thousand lines.
21:18:54 <fizzie> You don't get very reliable "mean word length" features from a single comment, after all.
21:19:05 <Fiora> ahhh, I see
21:19:11 <Fiora> so "with a lot of text, you can find who wrote something"
21:19:26 <fizzie> Right. You could find people who have changed their nicks but not their writing styles.
21:19:38 <fizzie> In fact, I think I did get "automatic" groupings of people who had changed their nicknames in some other experiment.
21:20:20 <elliott> did you find any secret doppelgangers
21:20:27 <Fiora> one thing I've wondered about these things is how well they'd work with the same person but different areas of writing
21:20:35 <Fiora> like let's say someone wrote both technical programming books and romance novels
21:20:44 <Fiora> would it match the two? or would the styles be so different that it would fail?
21:20:50 <Bike> totally hypothetically, eh
21:21:03 <Fiora> I wonder if there's any good databases of that kind of thing
21:21:14 <Arc_Koen> ouh, technical programming romance
21:21:24 <Fiora> ... not in the same book XD
21:21:33 <Arc_Koen> I knew that pointer had a thing for that reference
21:22:02 <fizzie> elliott: I think I did find some pairs for which the machine gave a suspiciously high compatibility ratings, but none of them admitted anything. I forget exactly.
21:22:25 <Fiora> the struct held his beloved integer in his strong, protecting arms, his eyes like sapphire orbs staring into her own
21:22:30 <Fiora> "w-will you... will you union me?"
21:23:51 <fizzie> Fiora: I would assume choice of topic/genre could affect at least many of my features (word lengths, type/token count, word classes) more than the individual author.
21:23:53 <zzo38> That confusion matrix of #esoteric seem very much incomplete, I am sure there are a lot more people on this channel than just that.
21:24:06 <Bike> "no, I... I... I'm little-endian!" she cried, forcing herself away (and then you have a few pages explaining endianness, its history, its use in networks...)
21:24:07 <elliott> no I'm pretty sure that is a comprehensive list of anyone who has ever been in the channel, ever
21:24:10 <zzo38> Also it redirected to http://xn--nxa.zem.fi/~fis/esoconfnf.png what is that for?
21:24:23 <elliott> has anyone told zzo38 he doesn't exist yet
21:24:31 <Fiora> Bike: you are terrible and wonderful
21:24:48 <Arc_Koen> I second that opinion
21:25:04 -!- Taneb has joined.
21:25:05 <zzo38> Also some people have changed their names so have more than one name for same people, they should be listed all name together, in the same row/column as the others but all included
21:25:26 <Taneb> That's a very... laconic topic
21:25:50 <Bike> brevity is the soul of a worker, taneb
21:25:57 <Arc_Koen> fizzie: I don't remember where I saw that (was that xkcd? or maybe this very channel?) but I saw a "map" of "words" from the english language, geographically located in a way that reflected their relations to each other in some texts
21:26:04 <elliott> therefore wit = a worker
21:26:13 <fizzie> zzo38: β.zem.fi is a laptop at home where I keep large and/or miscellaneous things, because the zem.fi server has not much disk space.
21:26:23 <elliott> (per the famous rule of logic f(x) = f(y) -> x = y)
21:26:23 <zzo38> fizzie: OK
21:26:51 <Arc_Koen> (that is, words that would work in the same context, like "two" and "three", or "pizza" and "burger", would be located very near to each other)
21:27:06 <elliott> fizzie: is the wiki updated yet
21:27:30 <Bike> Arc_Koen: "geographically"?
21:27:44 <zzo38> But, you should make up a new one with everyone on, including different name of same people grouped together in the same row/column, and include time as well.
21:28:49 <fizzie> Arc_Koen: There are quite a few ways to make maps like that. Things vaguely like SOM, except many don't actually need feature vectors for the actual points, just pairwise distances you can easily get from relations like that.
21:29:07 <Arc_Koen> Bike: hrm. geometrically?
21:29:13 -!- asiekierka has quit (Excess Flood).
21:29:41 <Bike> Arc_Koen: i mean, i just thought at first it would be like those maps that show where "pop" vs. "soda" is used
21:30:41 <fizzie> Really need to go now, there's a thing. Back in... four-five hours? ->
21:31:22 -!- asiekierka has joined.
21:32:48 <elliott> pretty suspicious of fizzie's sudden departure!!!
21:34:08 <Arc_Koen> Bike: oh, right. Well, not quite. In fact, I have no idea what the location meant - there was no axes or explanation whatsoever, it was just clear that words that usually occupy the same function were very very close
21:34:37 <Arc_Koen> Bike: though I think I can find you a map like you describe, wait a minute
21:35:11 <Arc_Koen> here: http://xkcd.com/1138/
21:36:04 <Arc_Koen> (just mentally substitute "where words are most used" for the legends)
21:36:15 <Bike> as someone living in a white area i am deeply offended
21:36:48 <Fiora> okies, screwdriver set arrived to try to finally get the bad RAM out of this laptop
21:36:55 <Fiora> first step: oh god it's shrinkwrapped
21:37:34 -!- SingingBoyo has joined.
21:37:40 <Fiora> erm, clamshelled
21:38:01 <Fiora> second step, shut off the laptop and hope my stick arms don't fail me
21:39:01 <elliott> I kept telling my therapist I wanted more conventional, non-hip-hop-oriented treatment, but it was no use. my shrinkwrapped.
21:39:07 <elliott> okay i hate myself for making a pun that bad
21:39:12 <elliott> please kill me
21:39:14 <elliott> :(
21:39:52 <Gregor> `addquote <elliott> I kept telling my therapist I wanted more conventional, non-hip-hop-oriented treatment, but it was no use. my shrinkwrapped. <elliott> okay i hate myself for making a pun that bad <elliott> please kill me <elliott> :(
21:39:56 <Bike> hip-hop oriented therapy sounds amazing tbh
21:39:59 <HackEgo> 864) <elliott> I kept telling my therapist I wanted more conventional, non-hip-hop-oriented treatment, but it was no use. my shrinkwrapped. <elliott> okay i hate myself for making a pun that bad <elliott> please kill me <elliott> :(
21:40:16 <ion> elliott++
21:47:51 <Fiora> XD
21:48:08 <Fiora> I think I found the culprit, as memtest is going clean so far...
21:48:20 <Fiora> a cursed 8GB stick of patriot memory
21:48:29 <olsner> I wonder if that's the worst pun I've ever heard
21:48:43 <Fiora> that is terrible and I love it
21:48:44 <kmc> http://achewood.com/index.php?date=08102007
21:54:55 -!- sebbu has joined.
21:57:48 <kmc> Fiora: did you ever see the paper about how random bitflip errors can be used to escape sandboxing?
21:58:36 <kmc> https://www.cs.princeton.edu/~appel/papers/memerr.pdf
21:59:02 <Fiora> woooow.
21:59:06 <Fiora> with 70% probability!
21:59:30 <kmc> oh oh and i forgot about http://hakim.ws/BHUS2011/.../BH_US_11_Dinaburg_Bitsquatting_WP.pdf until just now
21:59:31 <Fiora> smart cards -- I wonder if you could use like a small radiation source?
21:59:33 <kmc> this is even more hilarious
21:59:38 <Bike> that's a hell of an intro paragraph there
21:59:45 <kmc> you register evil domain names which are a single bit flip away from a real popular site
21:59:54 <Bike> and that link doesn't seem to be working... oh
22:00:32 <kmc> err whoops
22:00:35 <Bike> heh, message passing isn't object oriented
22:00:36 <kmc> i guess that link is a bad copypaste from google
22:00:42 <kmc> i hate hate hate hate hate how google mangles links
22:01:05 <kmc> http://www.hakim.ws/BHUS2011/materials/Dinaburg/BH_US_11_Dinaburg_Bitsquatting_WP.pdf
22:01:23 <kmc> they registered a bunch of these domains and observed a pretty steady flow of traffic to them
22:01:35 <Bike> nice
22:05:04 -!- Phantom___Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:05:19 -!- Phantom___Hoover has joined.
22:06:51 <Fiora> that first paper is really cool
22:06:56 <Fiora> it's amazing how -easy- the attack is
22:07:00 <Fiora> like, all you have to get is one type violation
22:07:07 <Fiora> and the system is compromised
22:07:11 <kmc> yep
22:07:20 * Fiora reads the second
22:08:51 <Bike> «Since we lacked the time or inclination to learn the oil-drilling trade, we decided to use heat.» lazy!
22:10:14 * kmc imagines asking the MIT Research Reactor people to lower an Android phone into their reactor core
22:10:31 -!- Sgeo|web_ has joined.
22:11:20 <Bike> "guys come on, we just need to verify our type system"
22:11:52 <Fiora> that second paper, jeez. that's really impressive
22:12:58 <elliott> kmc: to cure its cancer?
22:13:11 <ion> Ooh, the VM attack is cool.
22:13:23 -!- Sgeo|web has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
22:13:59 -!- GreyKnight has joined.
22:14:31 <GreyKnight> Opinion: http://esolangs.org/wiki/0L seems pretty useless even by joke language standards
22:14:56 <Bike> huh, the iPhone 4 seems very... i dunno, 95 just seems a very low max temp
22:15:07 <elliott> GreyKnight: I was thinking we actually already had the exact same language
22:15:10 <elliott> if you find it do let me know
22:15:17 <elliott> (with a different name, of course)
22:15:40 <Fiora> Bike: I think that's max external, not internal
22:15:44 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:16:00 <Fiora> like "by our tests, if you use the iphone in a >95 degree environment, internal temps will break thresholds"
22:16:27 <Arc_Koen> what kind of degrees?
22:16:31 <elliott> 95
22:16:43 <Arc_Koen> no I meant, what kind?
22:16:44 <GreyKnight> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Nil seems basically the same, they both have the same quine even
22:16:53 <GreyKnight> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Huh%3F is related (and also useless)
22:16:58 <Taneb> I'm pretty sure I'm in an acute area, I should be safe
22:17:08 -!- boily has quit (Quit: Poulet!).
22:17:18 <elliott> Arc_Koen: 95 of them!
22:17:24 <Arc_Koen> yes I got that
22:17:27 <Fiora> all you have to do to be in acute area is to be near Bike :3
22:17:29 <Bike> Fiora: yes, i know
22:17:33 <Bike> Arc_Koen: fahrenheit
22:17:35 <Arc_Koen> but I meant like, what kind?
22:17:37 <Bike> this is america
22:17:38 <Arc_Koen> oh, thank you
22:17:38 <elliott> GreyKnight: aha, nil is it
22:17:40 <elliott> Arc_Koen: 95!!
22:17:50 <Arc_Koen> so how many real degrees does it make? :-)
22:17:59 <Bike> Fiora: but i mean that means it's not rated to operate in arizona most of the time!
22:18:13 <elliott> neither are humans
22:18:24 <Bike> Arc_Koen: 554.7 °R
22:18:25 <Fiora> weren't there reports of ipads overheating just because of like, being in the sun?
22:18:39 <Arc_Koen> °R? never heard of them
22:18:48 <Bike> rankine, you fool
22:18:50 <Bike> also 25.875 °Rø
22:18:59 <Arc_Koen> now you're just making stuff up!
22:19:01 <elliott> Bike: don't call rankine a fool :(
22:19:10 <Bike> haven't you ever heated things in 19th century france
22:19:19 <Arc_Koen> well yes
22:19:22 <elliott> i do that every tuesday
22:19:32 <Arc_Koen> we heated water until it boiled and called it 100°
22:19:48 <Arc_Koen> and cooled it until it froze and called it 0°
22:19:55 <Bike> oh wait, Rø is 1701
22:20:01 <Bike> and ø is altgr-l, what
22:20:09 <FreeFull> altgr+o for me
22:20:09 <elliott> guys should i reinstall solidity's os
22:20:16 <FreeFull> altgr-l is ł
22:20:17 <elliott> rwin / o for me
22:20:24 <elliott> or rwin o / if you wanna be weird
22:20:32 <Bike> Arc_Koen: rankine is fahrenheit, except that zero is absolute zero. i'll let this sink in
22:20:41 <Arc_Koen> alt-0 for me
22:20:49 <FreeFull> shift+altgr / o works too for me
22:20:58 <Bike> y'all suck
22:21:04 <elliott> Bike: me too
22:21:30 <Arc_Koen> Bike: hrm. Interesting. I think I'm gonna stay the close-minded nationalist freak I am and stick with celsius, then
22:21:35 <elliott> hmmm this swedisn debian mirror isn't terribly fast
22:21:36 <kmc> do you all remember the HTTP-based freenode crapbot flood?
22:21:41 <kmc> that was pretty entertaining
22:21:48 <elliott> swedisn
22:21:51 <Bike> Arc_Koen: you're swedish?
22:22:06 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
22:22:11 <elliott> oh does this mean I can blame Arc_Koen
22:22:16 <Arc_Koen> certainly not
22:22:29 <Arc_Koen> do I like swedish to you?
22:22:34 <Bike> so what nation are you being closed minded with respect to
22:22:34 <kmc> somebody set up a web page with a form that would auto-POST to http://irc.freenode.org:6667
22:22:40 <Bike> it's important to disambiguate here on the internet
22:22:42 <Arc_Koen> I'm a very non-swedish set of pixels
22:22:47 <Bike> mtve: why...
22:22:52 <Bike> er. kmc
22:23:06 <kmc> with form contents that the freenode servers would interpret as logging in, joining a bunch of channels, and spamming them with links to said web page
22:23:21 <Bike> wow.
22:23:24 <GreyKnight> Let's just assume he's Finnish, statistically it's likely around here
22:23:32 <Arc_Koen> ok
22:23:40 <kmc> yeah it was pretty brilliant
22:23:56 <kmc> i think freenode implemented a countermeasure where if your IRC session starts with the letters "POST" you are disconnected
22:24:04 <elliott> what an elegant solution
22:24:15 <GreyKnight> kmc: ah, so of course every time someone clicked on the link...
22:24:22 <GreyKnight> spam laser
22:24:26 <kmc> yep
22:24:42 <elliott> seems like POST is interpreted as QUIT
22:24:48 <kmc> did you try just now
22:24:50 <elliott> yes
22:24:52 <elliott> with netcat
22:24:55 <elliott> "elite hacking tools"
22:24:56 <kmc> nice
22:25:03 <kmc> Real Hackers use socat, elliott
22:25:04 <elliott> amusingly it still keeps the connection open for a few seconds
22:25:09 <elliott> to check if you have an ident
22:25:14 <elliott> kmc: socat is the grossest
22:25:34 <kmc> no u
22:25:55 <elliott> I made a point of using the original ~1996 netcat for a while because it was adorable but I got too lazy compiling it myself whenever I reinstalled
22:25:58 <Bike> i wonder how many protocols are susceptible to an attack like that
22:26:55 <kmc> yeah the book i'm reading on websec mentioned this with SMTP
22:27:02 <kmc> instead of IRC
22:28:56 <GreyKnight> 😻
22:29:08 <elliott>
22:29:43 <elliott> guys i'm upgrading php if it breaks it's not my fault
22:29:57 <GreyKnight> "if", hah
22:30:46 <GreyKnight> e⃣s⃣o⃣t⃣e⃣r⃣i⃣c⃣
22:30:57 <GreyKnight> hm looks not great on this client
22:31:14 <GreyKnight> e⃣ s⃣ o⃣ t⃣ e⃣ r⃣ i⃣ c⃣
22:31:19 <GreyKnight> better
22:31:40 <kmc> da fuq
22:31:51 <Bike> unicode covers everything
22:32:39 <kmc> nuh uh
22:32:45 <kmc> there's no unicode penis symbol
22:32:55 <kmc> much less COMBINING PENIS ABOVE
22:33:14 <kmc> navigating to http://irc.freenode.org:6667/ in Chromium gives me `net::ERR_UNSAFE_PORT`
22:33:37 <olsner> wtf, chromium has no business deciding which ports you can http to
22:33:56 <kmc> yeah
22:34:17 <GreyKnight> COMBINING PENIS ABOVE: just say n⃠ o⃠
22:34:18 <kmc> well websec is entirely composed of ad hoc hacks to improve security by interventions on entirely the wrong layer
22:35:00 <olsner> on a related note, I think my ID card has technically expired ... time to figure out how to get a new identity and/or id card
22:35:22 <GreyKnight> I wonder how long it will be before someone actually puts a penis into Unicode
22:36:39 <Bike> i have ಠ_ಠ, that's enough for me
22:36:58 <GreyKnight> how about Ꙭ
22:37:38 <GreyKnight> (U+A66C cyrillic capital letter double monocular o)
22:37:43 <Bike> kmc: out of curiosity, what was the time lag between making the various internet protocols and getting somebody who knows security on board? i'm guessing like twenty years
22:37:46 <Bike> or never
22:38:34 <elliott> well I would guess that the kind of security knowledge and practice that is relevant to the internet just didn't exist before the protocols themselves
22:38:40 <GreyKnight> Guys I have important news: turns out there are in fact penises in Unicode: 𓂸𓂹𓂺
22:38:47 <olsner> oh, if you're currently in jail you're not allowed to get a swedish passport - shocking
22:38:48 <GreyKnight> (egyptian hieroglyphics block)
22:39:12 <kmc> Bike: it's not really a sequential thing
22:39:30 <kmc> there's a continuous process of people inventing crazy new features and other people finding security problems with them
22:39:41 <GreyKnight> U+130B8 is your basic penis, while U+130B9 has some other object in view (?) and U+130BA is peeing I think
22:39:45 <Bike> how exciting
22:40:28 <olsner> ah, is that U+130BA PUBLIC URINATION?
22:40:40 <kmc> i like the information disclosure hole where you can tell what sites a user has visited by making some links and asking their color from javascript
22:40:53 <Bike> haha, wow
22:41:05 <Fiora> Yeah, that one is brilliant
22:41:05 <kmc> even once browsers closed that hole, you can trick the user into disclosing it by making a fake CAPTCHA
22:41:18 <Bike> Also, I just googled "unicode urinate" and got about half a dozen relevant hanzi.
22:41:19 <GreyKnight> its name is just EGYPTIAN HIEROGLYPH D053
22:41:26 <Fiora> then there's the gajillion hacks involving cached dat
22:41:27 <Fiora> *data
22:41:40 <Fiora> I think you can do something like try to fetch something and time it and see if it's cached?
22:41:49 <kmc> GreyKnight: hahahaha
22:41:53 <kmc> thank you for telling me about this character
22:42:20 <GreyKnight> (full hieroglyphs chart: http://www.unicode.org/charts/PDF/U13000.pdf )
22:42:41 <GreyKnight> sadly there is no COMBINING PENIS ABOVE, what you gonna do
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22:43:28 <kmc> we need some kind of combining character that makes other characters into combining characters
22:43:45 <Bike> determine a user's fetishes, for marketing purposes, by checking which hieroglyphs they have correct fonts for
22:44:19 <kmc> actually unicode should specify a way to embed arbitrary instructions for the layout engine
22:44:24 <kmc> as berkeley packet filter programs
22:44:58 <Bike> isn't that tex? (we need an anti-mathnerd exploit, stat)
22:45:21 <kmc> http://code.google.com/p/chromium/source/search?q=kRestrictedPorts
22:45:57 <Bike> christ, why don't they set up a whitelist instead if they're going to do that
22:46:41 <elliott> they forgot 80
22:46:44 <elliott> dangerous port that
22:47:08 <kmc> everyone knows the only port that still works on the internet is 443/tcp
22:47:54 <kmc> one day all protocols below HTTP will be treated as mysterious technology left by a long dead alien civilization
22:48:49 <olsner> might be hard to increase bandwidth if no-one knows how ethernet and ip and all that stuff works so they can make faster routers and switches
22:49:08 <GreyKnight> kmc: memerr.pdf is fascinating stuff, thanks
22:49:33 <GreyKnight> 70%!
22:51:51 <zzo38> If you are interested in hieroglyphics you should have the fonts for all hieroglyphs anyways.
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22:52:35 <zzo38> I really think Unicode is making far more complicated than it should be, anyways.
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22:55:49 <GreyKnight> agree on the first point, would agree on the second if I could think of a better way ;-)
22:56:19 <zzo38> Why should there be fonts for only some of the hieroglyphics?
22:57:11 <kmc> unicode does have some unnecessary complexity
22:57:37 <kmc> but it also has a lot of unavoidable complexity thanks to its ambitious goal of representing all text in the world
22:57:56 <kmc> the difficulty of that task is often lost on english speaking programmers
22:58:04 <GreyKnight> zzo38: I'm not sure there *are* any such fonts?
22:58:16 <kmc> whose language is basically the simplest case and is privileged by historical factors
22:58:52 <GreyKnight> kmc, a quick glance at the pages and pages of CJK stuff should shock some sense into such people ;-)
22:59:56 <kmc> nah foreigners should just learn english if they want to use the internet
23:00:02 <zzo38> I don't care what language you speak but I think Unicode is doing everything the wrong way anyways.
23:00:06 <kmc> how dare they cause a little extra work for rich english-speaking people in the first world
23:01:00 <kmc> i can't find zzo38's viewpoint too offensive though because i can just substitute "HTTP" or "PDF" or "normal IRC clients" and it is still something he would say
23:01:01 <zzo38> Well, you should not be required to learn English well anyways; a little bit ought to be sufficient.
23:01:06 <kmc> bbl going to buy cheeses
23:02:37 <zzo38> Since if you are writing a document in some other language it should still be allowed, although what encoding you use is whatever you use. Such as you might make up the font, and then print out the document, using such fonts, then it is readable.
23:04:15 <zzo38> It isn't because I don't like other languages; actually, I think English is just as bad. But that is not the point! I mean they shouldn't overcomplicate things.
23:06:16 <GreyKnight> what if you're not printing? For example, people conversing on IRC using various characters
23:06:47 <GreyKnight> ∑(1/x)
23:07:25 <GreyKnight> ∀ fizzie ∃! fungot
23:07:25 <fungot> GreyKnight: not in 1952. let handles it specially. monadzero was the perfect format for a timestamp.
23:08:18 <zzo38> I think computers should not need variable pitch font except for printing.
23:08:59 <pikhq> zzo38: Well,私為一思that君should be可to使変物s様this.
23:09:25 <FreeFull> 㡕ኄڄᠤ薅?
23:10:02 <Bike> how does unicode handle boustrephedon, anyway
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23:11:06 <GreyKnight> it doesn't :v
23:11:19 <Bike> horrors!
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23:11:30 <GreyKnight> You can do a manual line break and override the bidi direction
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23:15:05 <zzo38> A better way to design a universal character set anyways, would be, instead you can tell many things about it from the bits of the codepoint, and from information in the font files, and from formatting codes in the document, and should not require built-in tables to figure out what everything is, and the program does not need to support all of them anyways.
23:15:30 <zzo38> Also, the way the Unicode decided what character to put in and how it is put in, is also bad, even ignoring the code numbers and other stuff.
23:16:28 <zzo38> UTF-8 is not such the bad encoding for the numbers, although any program that supports it should allow you to turn it off too, to use single-byte encoding.
23:17:52 <Lumpio-> But there are so many bits about a character
23:18:00 <Lumpio-> You would end up with ridiculously long numbers
23:18:13 <zzo38> That is just because of Unicode they put too many in.
23:18:34 <Lumpio-> Also Unicode wasn't designed in one go. You'd have to have lots of reserved codepoints for future expansion of each category
23:18:36 <GreyKnight> having an initial BOM in the document lets you specifically state that the file is UTF-8 (or any other UTF really), so an application could use that to switch between UTF-8 and bytes automatically
23:18:39 <Lumpio-> Which would make them even longer
23:19:00 <Lumpio-> zzo38: Oh, what would you have left out?
23:19:51 <GreyKnight> kmc: finished reading the paper. Slightly disappointed they didn't drop a computer into a nuclear reactor, but still good fun
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23:20:11 <zzo38> Lumpio-: I would leave out almost all of the character properties Unicode has.
23:20:55 <Lumpio-> Oh, you means properties
23:20:59 <Lumpio-> I thought you meant characters themselves
23:24:36 <zzo38> Probably eight categories, meaning three bits, is more than enough. One means control characters.
23:25:21 <elliott> so now if a program wants to know something about a character that zzo38 omitted it has to have a big table again
23:25:53 <shachaf> `quote
23:25:55 <HackEgo> 458) <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb's been hit by melancholy. <Phantom_Hoover> He didn't have any friends, fortunatel.y
23:25:57 <shachaf> Where's my unique ID?
23:26:05 <zzo38> But why should the program need to know about such things anyways? Some of the stuff needed to know can be stored with the fonts.
23:27:14 <zzo38> But, other things, depend on the program.
23:27:27 <GreyKnight> won't most of the fonts be keeping duplicate information then? :-/
23:28:17 <FireFly> Surely properties such as script direction and which codepoint is the uppercase version of this one is more relevant to the charset than a font?
23:28:49 <Bike> I thought typefaces were only supposed to be information about the graphical display. Stuff like whether a character is logically considered "whitespace" doesn't seem appropriate for a typeface.
23:29:01 <GreyKnight> shachaf: your duplicate ID is this 96f5e4c4598813b8ac7fdc4e2ce9bd03
23:29:01 <GreyKnight> er
23:29:01 <GreyKnight> unique
23:29:01 <GreyKnight> how did I typo "unique" as "duplicate"?
23:29:01 <GreyKnight> brain no worky
23:29:02 <GreyKnight> even case-folding can be an "it's complicated" question in some writing systems
23:30:46 <GreyKnight> I say we have only one font full-stop, typefaces are for graphics design weenies B-)
23:31:05 <Gregor> I elect Comic Sans.
23:32:09 <Bike> second
23:32:22 <FireFly> Why not.. webdings?
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23:34:04 <GreyKnight> Comic Sans all the way
23:34:04 <zzo38> Information such as what is uppercase version, should be stored in commands in the file of whatever the program is working with; TeX is working in this way, so is TeXnicard.
23:34:38 <GreyKnight> related: http://achewood.com/index.php?date=07052007
23:35:50 <zzo38> Also notice that no matter what you include the character set, some information may be specific to some programs so they may not be complete anyways. For example, TeXnicard also need to know which letters can be used as roman numerals.
23:36:22 <zzo38> (In TeX this is hard-coded; in TeXnicard it can be set up by the user.)
23:50:47 <shachaf> `run allquotes | grep zzo38 | shuf
23:50:49 <HackEgo> 28) <zzo38> I am not on the moon. \ 333) <zzo38> Finally I found the wand of electric lightning now we can destroy any large object if it needs to be destroyed and is required to use a such a wand for that purpose. \ 815) <zzo38> Because, if it is all wrong, then I should fix it please \ 182) <pikhq> zzo38: A better definition would probably fix Av
23:51:10 <shachaf> `quote 182
23:51:12 <HackEgo> 182) <pikhq> zzo38: A better definition would probably fix Avogadro's number. <Sgeo> It's broken?
23:51:32 <shachaf> 182 should be editor to remove "zzo38: ".
23:51:45 <elliott> no
23:52:46 <GreyKnight> what for?
23:53:01 <shachaf> Foul! No synonyms!
23:53:09 <GreyKnight> wat
23:55:58 <zzo38> It might be true that it would be better to remove "zzo38: " from that quotation, but I don't think you should just change everything like that.
23:56:14 <shachaf> zzo38: Have you ever flown an aeroplane?
23:57:01 <zzo38> shachaf: I have been on an aeroplane a few times in the past.
23:57:52 <GreyKnight> have you piloted one, I think he means
23:58:16 <zzo38> I thought that might be what you meant, but I wasn't sure.
23:58:20 <zzo38> No, I have not piloted one.
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