< 1356825753 779112 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-45-88.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric
< 1356825754 201131 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-45-88.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Changing host
< 1356825754 385562 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu JOIN :#esoteric
< 1356825785 895693 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: why is it esaier to donate via SL?  Is SL already hooked up to some payment mechanism?
< 1356825834 649774 :nooodl!~nooodl@91.177.28.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hagb4rd: i can't find any reliable source on that
< 1356825845 487596 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :de.wikipedia.org has it
< 1356825901 189288 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-4d0b66f6.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooodl: actually it's called cyclosophie in english.. but there are very few english sites providing information on that
< 1356825904 426539 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-4d0b66f6.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :a pity
< 1356825910 343026 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, it's currently rather difficult for me to take my SL money and bring it into RL
< 1356825916 842851 :nooodl!~nooodl@91.177.28.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what bothers me most is, it *only* exists in german sources
< 1356825919 824060 :sebbu2!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1356825933 364397 :nooodl!~nooodl@91.177.28.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't even appear to have a dutch name
< 1356825962 873508 :Taneb!~nathan@host-2-97-153-98.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooodl, I have a dutch name
< 1356825971 714185 :Taneb!~nathan@host-2-97-153-98.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :That doesn't mean much
< 1356826151 739048 :nooodl_!~nooodl@91.177.25.167 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1356826181 793081 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't dutch similar enough to german that the word might work in both?
< 1356826206 949715 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-4d0b66f6.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is oerjan
< 1356826222 334909 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-4d0b66f6.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i believe it's originally called "radosophie"
< 1356826293 947785 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-4d0b66f6.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's translated to cyclosophie but there a very few sources on cyclosophie anyway
< 1356826317 622171 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :google translate seems to think rad means wheel in both
< 1356826324 821490 :nooodl!~nooodl@91.177.28.152 QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
< 1356826373 743358 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-4d0b66f6.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually rad is wheel but colloquially  it means bike
< 1356826378 795596 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-4d0b66f6.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :too
< 1356826384 32430 :nooodl_!~nooodl@91.177.25.167 PRIVMSG #esoteric :only in german
< 1356826388 178530 :nooodl_!~nooodl@91.177.25.167 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it dutch we say "fiets"
< 1356826396 624712 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-4d0b66f6.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh ok
< 1356826400 579120 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-4d0b66f6.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :cool
< 1356826448 235409 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders what the etymology of that is
< 1356826458 548398 :nooodl_!~nooodl@91.177.25.167 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: literally nobody knows for sure
< 1356826470 669378 :nooodl_!~nooodl@91.177.25.167 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's no cognates for it at all
< 1356826488 43073 :nooodl_!~nooodl@91.177.25.167 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait. whoa what http://www.24oranges.nl/2012/02/23/etymology-of-dutch-word-for-bicycle-cracked-after-140-years/
< 1356826495 436157 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm also means machine?
< 1356826501 434429 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1356826528 740280 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-45-88.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric
< 1356826529 53752 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-45-88.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Changing host
< 1356826529 238402 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu JOIN :#esoteric
< 1356826541 372976 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-4d0b66f6.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :you see the list of mystical facts on the dutch and their bikes is getting longer and longer :D
< 1356826549 809531 :DHeadshot!~DH____@unaffiliated/dh----/x-6288474 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1356826609 281153 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's hard to beat "vélocipède", really.
< 1356826814 863868 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was playing Dungeons&Dragons game yesterday. We were trying to hide in the storage room, but we got chased around by all over the place, by guards, invisible wizards, an undead shadow, the wizard who was invisible was putting candles on the floor and eventually made some spell to light the fire much bigger...
< 1356827026 852750 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is a little bit like a game of chess. But, this game is much more complicated and has incomplete information, as well as nearly everything else different.
< 1356827057 459888 :Taneb!~nathan@host-2-97-153-98.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: goodnight
< 1356827430 154150 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I managed to reverse the hinge on a door to prevent it from opening; I was trying to change it so that it would open into the hallway instead of opening into the room, but now it doesn't open at all. Well, at least this helps a bit.
< 1356827592 440722 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: oh, you can donate SL money, i see
< 1356827628 247408 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :my friend says in NL it is common to have two bikes, one at each end of your commute by train
< 1356827725 193505 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess this is needed because cities in NL don't have dense rapid transit networks
< 1356828046 943370 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :wheeee template templates
< 1356828064 8833 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :template <class A, template <class> class B> class C
< 1356828305 826329 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-4d0b66f6.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :often used that to build some kind of dictionary of dictionaries for example
< 1356828347 343662 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-4d0b66f6.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :mutidimensional dictionaries
< 1356828583 183345 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's just using a template class as the type parameter of a class template, not a template template thing? 
< 1356828625 50948 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-4d0b66f6.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok where's the difference
< 1356828676 459144 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know how template templates work, so I can't answer that. But you certainly don't write something like that just to make a map< string, map<string, string> >.
< 1356828676 947365 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :map<a, map<b, v> >  is not template templates
< 1356828692 737357 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :because map<b, v> is a fully instantiated type
< 1356828708 937474 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :template templates lets you do things like  Foo<a, map>
< 1356828718 35775 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :where the body of Foo then gets to instantiate 'map' however it wants
< 1356828723 931010 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you could pass in some other two-argument template there
< 1356828758 640997 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :if I have template <class A, template <class> class B> class C
< 1356828788 982812 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :then within C i can use B<int>, B<A>, B< B<A> >, etc.
< 1356828809 153812 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the code that uses C gets to decide which template B ultimately is
< 1356828839 280607 :TodPunk!~Tod@166-70-93-209.ip.xmission.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1356828843 107550 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :this corresponds to higher-kinded types in Haskell
< 1356828852 38654 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :type constructors that take other type constructors as arguments
< 1356828857 120237 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric ::k ReaderT
< 1356828858 547428 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :* -> (* -> *) -> * -> *
< 1356828890 877254 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Very nice, but does g++ have it"
< 1356829049 889731 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :template templates? yes
< 1356829062 35054 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're a standard C++98 feature i believe
< 1356829116 829065 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, there is at least one C++98 feature that no one supports
< 1356829133 946774 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, fair enough
< 1356829150 169227 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except the edison people who get paid millions of dollars to implement C++98
< 1356829174 603842 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I believe people who buy their compilers then turn it off
< 1356829195 804231 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :is this the precompiled templates or whatever?
< 1356829225 757395 :etb!~flood0r2@173.255.247.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :template templates?
< 1356829226 945531 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :Templatium exportium
< 1356829252 587869 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :etb: template templates are what we were discussing above
< 1356829264 378203 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :they are widely implemented afaik
< 1356829292 374997 :etb!~flood0r2@173.255.247.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION looks in the logs
< 1356829375 718480 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-4d0b66f6.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i believe the notation of this simplified by generics in c#
< 1356829392 619490 :etb!~flood0r2@173.255.247.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :bah
< 1356829401 906002 :etb!~flood0r2@173.255.247.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :give it to me raw
< 1356829450 188644 :etb!~flood0r2@173.255.247.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, it works
< 1356829458 86549 :etb!~flood0r2@173.255.247.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :template<class A, template<class> class B> class C { }; int main(){}
< 1356829625 217934 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :template <template <template <class> class> class T> class C {};
< 1356829657 370905 :etb!~flood0r2@173.255.247.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hahahaha
< 1356829675 363906 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is like python at the type level
< 1356829679 290485 :etb!~flood0r2@173.255.247.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do you instantiate it?
< 1356829701 202343 :etb!~flood0r2@173.255.247.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :C<vector<vector<int>>> x?
< 1356829707 798436 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :no
< 1356829717 524684 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :int, vector<int>, and vector<vector<int>> are all ordinary types
< 1356829729 349475 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :they aren't uninstantiated templates
< 1356829746 44691 :etb!~flood0r2@173.255.247.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :mm, then?
< 1356829761 534477 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :with that C and "template <template <class> class T> class D {};" you could then use C<D>
< 1356829765 59742 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, you're making me want to find that book on template metaprogramming.  make it stop
< 1356829829 269129 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :likewise with that D you could do D<std::set> or any other one-argument template
< 1356829835 24004 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :@google c++ template metaprogramming abrahams
< 1356829836 941645 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.amazon.com/Template-Metaprogramming-Concepts-Techniques-Beyond/dp/0321227255
< 1356829842 112538 :etb!~flood0r2@173.255.247.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i c
< 1356829842 333700 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :though std::set also has some default template arguments and I don't know how that interacts
< 1356829867 483658 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: poorly
< 1356829920 275461 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could imagine that D implement some high-level algorithm, and you tell it what data structure template to use
< 1356829940 69347 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe D<std::list> is more efficient in some cases and D<std::vector> is better in other cases
< 1356829960 357783 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but D can just use T<float> and T<int> and whatever, and not care whether T is list or vector
< 1356829974 266628 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :so long as the way it uses T is compatible with both
< 1356830001 541771 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I presume you can pass template typedefs as parameters
< 1356830013 246934 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course that idea of templates conforming to some interface does not exist inside the language, it's a matter of documenting method signatures and such
< 1356830020 619123 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :they were going to add it to the language for C++11 but ultimately did not
< 1356830027 177976 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :using template <class T> vector1 = vector <T>;
< 1356830045 673128 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :template instantiation is totally duck-typed which is kinda funny
< 1356830055 992747 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :Python at the type level
< 1356830060 323504 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah
< 1356830069 309058 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :a dynamically typed language at compile time and a statically typed language at run time
< 1356830072 482272 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :what a country
< 1356830087 442669 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course it would just be TOO INSANE to have a language where the metalanguage is the same language you already know
< 1356830104 949118 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :so let's keep inventing shitty half-baked metalanguages and then hacking them to do unexpected things
< 1356830111 648715 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :also that it's turing complete at compile time but not at runtime
< 1356830133 328423 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ope, and with that the interest is dead.  artful
< 1356830139 393984 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do the C++ standards say about maximum template expansion depth
< 1356830152 732759 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :if they allow implementations to set a max depth (which they all do) then it's not TC at compile time either
< 1356830175 85996 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, yes, there is that ... hopefully it merely allows a max depth to exist
< 1356830360 209523 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :u cannot use the same language as the metalanguage bcs gödel's theorem duh
< 1356830382 277230 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :q.e.d.□
< 1356830576 408375 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Good night
< 1356830659 558122 :etb!~flood0r2@173.255.247.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's wrong with template language?
< 1356830693 109194 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :What I think is wrong with it is how it uses < >
< 1356830735 991321 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just not a good language for writing general purpose metaprograms
< 1356830749 652068 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :getting even basic data structures in your metalanguage is annoying
< 1356830800 762916 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and compilers implement it very poorly, with horrible error messages
< 1356830828 480464 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you can't really inspect the structure of your template arguments, which rules out a lot of useful metaprograms
< 1356830844 691503 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i can't write a template that takes some other class and serializes it to JSON using the names of its data members as strings
< 1356830868 531901 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :C++ templates are okay for generic data structures and other very simple metaprograms, which is what they were designed for
< 1356830904 50322 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :why would you do that in a template?
< 1356830930 652024 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it's pretty clearly a metaprogram, at least in a static language
< 1356830942 534659 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :you read the description of some data structure and then you emit code which serializes that data structure
< 1356830951 522391 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :templates are the only popular form of metaprogramming in C++
< 1356830968 534033 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i suppose qt's... stuff, doesn't count
< 1356830977 600861 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe it does actually
< 1356830982 908843 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have heard of this stuff but don't know much about it
< 1356830997 998758 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are some other extensions to C++
< 1356831016 907109 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you can write custom preprocessors
< 1356831018 390059 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder how the vampire hunting language is developing
< 1356831020 446180 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and custom compiler passes
< 1356831022 749244 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, i think it allows enough introspection of classes to do json serialization, but i don't think it's at compile time
< 1356831027 830568 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's a pretty bad situtaion
< 1356831072 703404 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially since C++ is so rigid and static that you really want metaprogramming
< 1356831121 809789 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course a lot of C++ programmers think that metaprogramming is synonymous with template metaprogramming
< 1356831143 158259 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :they can't even conceive of a language where you can write -straightforward- programs that manipulate other programs
< 1356831173 774759 :etb!~flood0r2@173.255.247.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :even template metaprogramming is looked down upon by some foolish c++ programmers
< 1356831323 356923 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :well they are right to look down on it, because it's cumbersome and annoying
< 1356831346 752634 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's fallacious to conclude that metaprogramming in general is simply beyond human understanding and we should all write boilerplate all day
< 1356831384 397026 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :as usual, the existence of a popular, bad implementation of an idea is enough to damn the idea entirely
< 1356831409 540476 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :MySQL sucks, therefore relational databases suck
< 1356831423 596964 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Python and Ruby suck at threading, therefore threads are a horrible and useless concept
< 1356831426 778357 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :etc
< 1356831431 627758 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :rantrantrant
< 1356831440 803007 :etb!~flood0r2@173.255.247.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i see what you mean. it's a shame :(
< 1356831450 844154 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :have you worked out that python threading business yet?
< 1356831461 697945 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :which?
< 1356831471 193820 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :the one you've been intermittently complaining about
< 1356831476 767573 :etb!~flood0r2@173.255.247.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :though, i am personally at least lukewarm to C++ templates. they leave something to be desired, but i like them so far
< 1356831485 828830 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bike: probably not, then
< 1356831487 244431 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :also: i wonder if this is why my python-user friend was so big on me not using threads
< 1356831537 789503 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :well you should not use threads in python
< 1356831545 564052 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wasn't.
< 1356831558 327395 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean, maybe he got a(n especially) bad impression of them from python.
< 1356831561 154174 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can we make a better preprocessor for C which runs after the C preprocessor?
< 1356831563 177381 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, most likely
< 1356831581 251504 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there a way to tell GCC to add a step after the preprocessor?
< 1356831583 718777 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :The python threading business is that python does not implement threads correctly
< 1356831587 909878 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's about it
< 1356831596 862150 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, they don't want to implement threads correctly, ever
< 1356831598 595959 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's kind of sad that GHC has put all this effort into an actually good implementation of shared-memory multiprocessing, and the rest of the world has just decided that shared-memory multiprocessing is a lost cause
< 1356831628 699080 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :history has passed them by
< 1356831629 230368 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo: you can override what preprocessor gcc uses
< 1356831663 504622 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :they've also put all this effort into a statically-typed language where the type system doesn't hate you, and the rest of the world has decided that type systems are a lost cause
< 1356831682 871826 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway this is a pointless rant
< 1356831684 509789 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :you feelin' down, kmc?
< 1356831690 345173 :etb!~flood0r2@173.255.247.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it possible to have code executed at compile time during template expansion?
< 1356831698 397029 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jafet: I want to make it still use the C preprocessor but to add something else afterward; perhaps if the other program knows where the real C preprocessor is then it can use that with it.
< 1356831718 76401 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pass a shellscript that runs cpp
< 1356831721 210468 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :etb: C++ code? no.  template code? yes
< 1356831722 712140 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't you just pipe gcc -E through whatever
< 1356831745 829354 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't understand monads as well as I should
< 1356831756 276211 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :> [5,5,3] >> "moo"
< 1356831757 708667 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :  "moomoomoo"
< 1356831758 968066 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bike: gcc can compile multiple TUs at once, so a pipe won't work
< 1356831759 298132 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :etb: but the compiler *is* free to evaluate constant expressions at compile time, and C++11's constexpr keyword greatly expands the scope of that
< 1356831767 170133 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why does it print "moomoomoo" rather than "moo"
< 1356831793 66551 :etb!~flood0r2@173.255.247.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: mmm
< 1356831801 678859 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :FreeFull: It is like (join ("moo" <$ [5,5,3])) = (join ["moo","moo","moo"])
< 1356831802 470838 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :free to?  so it doesn't have to.
< 1356831807 774749 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :FreeFull: look at the definition of (>>=) for "instance Monad []"
< 1356831832 640062 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can force it to
< 1356831837 864121 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is... somewhere
< 1356831843 512863 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :Leather cuffs and paddle optional
< 1356831882 76887 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :x >>= f = join (fmap f x); x >> y = x >>= \_ -> y; therefore [5,5,3] >> "moo" = [5,5,3] >>= \_ -> "moo" = join (fmap (\_ -> "moo") [5,5,3])
< 1356831899 744235 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :int a[fact<10>::value];
< 1356831905 896551 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :FreeFull: To me that is how I can understand why it does that.
< 1356831913 119738 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: I see
< 1356831915 784948 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :@src (>>=) []
< 1356831915 971225 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Source not found. Wrong!  You cheating scum!
< 1356831919 333697 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry that i can't find it
< 1356831926 338666 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :@src [] (>>=)
< 1356831926 536141 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :xs >>= f     = concatMap f xs
< 1356831932 174919 :etb!~flood0r2@173.255.247.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm picturing a system in which `using x = T<int>; using y = T<int>;` will be like `using x = T<int,0>; using y = T<int,1>;` so that the expression `x = y;` results in a compile-time error
< 1356831939 775017 :etb!~flood0r2@173.255.247.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :harder types!
< 1356831987 89824 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, it is like concatMap
< 1356831991 127878 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :etb: dude, you can't do that in a pure language like C++
< 1356831997 432303 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :It doesn't make sense
< 1356832016 837526 :etb!~flood0r2@173.255.247.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"pure"?
< 1356832018 51368 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :@src State (>>=)
< 1356832018 235325 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Source not found. Listen, broccoli brains, I don't have time to listen to this trash.
< 1356832023 741981 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :> [1,2,3] >>= (\x -> [x*10, x*100])
< 1356832025 247015 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :  [10,100,20,200,30,300]
< 1356832034 168785 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :FreeFull: ^^^ do you understand why it does this?
< 1356832037 134029 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :C++ is a pure functional language
< 1356832041 996018 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: I do now
< 1356832051 400982 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok
< 1356832061 514565 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :FreeFull: A monad mathematically may be defined two ways, either fmap return join or return =<< and Haskell normally does it by return >>=
< 1356832064 684821 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can probably, however, implement a state monad at the type level or something
< 1356832067 12405 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :And use that
< 1356832071 362874 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :But either way it defines the same monad.
< 1356832076 174598 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :> [1,2,3] >>= (\x -> ['m', 'o', 'o'])
< 1356832077 651430 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :  "moomoomoo"
< 1356832079 496535 :etb!~flood0r2@173.255.247.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can do everything i said after "will be like"
< 1356832121 944709 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :@src (->) (>>=)
< 1356832122 152145 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :f >>= k = \ r -> k (f r) r
< 1356832133 572577 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :So in the list monad that is what happen; join = concat; fmap = map; return x = [x]; x >>= f = concatMap f x = concat (map f x); and it follow the monad laws (such as (>>= return) = id) so it work.
< 1356832137 241049 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually x = y is a compile error because it's not an expression
< 1356832154 581465 :etb!~flood0r2@173.255.247.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :right
< 1356832161 316868 :etb!~flood0r2@173.255.247.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean x a, y b; a = b;
< 1356832189 636202 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's also a compile error
< 1356832201 75875 :etb!~flood0r2@173.255.247.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :; instead of , :P
< 1356832213 953939 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :What language is that
< 1356832218 489924 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then it depends on which operator= is defined
< 1356832225 129105 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :The other way would be by join = (>>= id) and fmap f x = x >>= return . f; so it recovers either way. There are many different kind of monad, as long as they follow the monad laws.
< 1356832225 456892 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :Isn't C++ great?
< 1356832238 577525 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :C++ could be worse
< 1356832246 674152 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :most things could be
< 1356832254 908685 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :AIDS could be worse
< 1356832278 431115 :etb!~flood0r2@173.255.247.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, except using x and using y both = T<int>; then it will use the default assignment operator unless you overwrote it
< 1356832288 700438 :etb!~flood0r2@173.255.247.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :except if *
< 1356832396 144540 :etb!~flood0r2@173.255.247.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm saying that the user-defined type system breaks down when you want to use the same POD to mean two different things
< 1356832403 757386 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :T<int> is always the same type. How would you feel if it suddenly went off and became another type?
< 1356832432 20395 :etb!~flood0r2@173.255.247.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i would feel ok with it if there were a way to specify that you want that to happen
< 1356832435 896435 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's pretty important that C++ is a pure, functional language.
< 1356832472 582813 :etb!~flood0r2@173.255.247.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :such as with using 
< 1356832535 584463 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, the preprocessor is a PSPACE-complete sequential state machine, so you could use that to generate newtypes
< 1356832550 435118 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :C++ is great
< 1356832586 984757 :etb!~flood0r2@173.255.247.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the case where this would matter is here: void calc_something(feet_per_second); /* ... */ meters_per_second x = 9.0; calc_something(x); // duh
< 1356832594 109919 :etb!~flood0r2@173.255.247.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jafet: oh?
< 1356832640 120598 :TodPunk!~Tod@166-70-93-209.ip.xmission.com JOIN :#esoteric
< 1356832684 150108 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why would templates matter
< 1356832722 863010 :etb!~flood0r2@173.255.247.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cause they would be used as a wrapper for a POD
< 1356832754 394831 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why do you need some crazy mutable state
< 1356832773 359297 :etb!~flood0r2@173.255.247.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they wouldn't matter actually if you could just using fps_value = double; or whatever and have it mean something
< 1356832794 465446 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds
< 1356832908 846868 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :typedef meter = make_unit <"meter">::type; typedef second = make_unit <"second">::type; typedef meter_per_second = unit_mul <meter, unit_recip <second>>::type;
< 1356833057 481192 :calamari!~calamari@ip72-211-149-230.tc.ph.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1356833120 696055 :etb!~flood0r2@173.255.247.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :now we're talking
< 1356833210 20555 :etb!~flood0r2@173.255.247.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :const char* for template parameter?
< 1356833214 784473 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-24-128-161-213.hsd1.nh.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1356833291 261344 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :template <char const* U> struct make_unit { /* HOMEWORK */ };
< 1356833313 42477 :etb!~flood0r2@173.255.247.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :error: '"Hello"' is not a valid template argument for type 'const char*' because string literals can never be used in this context
< 1356833356 154746 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your compiler sucks
< 1356833368 387010 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure if this works across TUs, though
< 1356833407 494824 :etb!~flood0r2@173.255.247.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :gcc 4.7.0 lol?
< 1356833420 576400 :etb!~flood0r2@173.255.247.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :rude guy
< 1356833437 320913 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you can give it the address of an extern symbol
< 1356833437 899245 :etb!~flood0r2@173.255.247.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what compiler do you use?
< 1356833531 943706 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3496/3994758072_8c05cbb55b.jpg
< 1356833564 617075 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-24-128-161-213.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol
< 1356833606 837310 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, so you can only pass strings with extern linkage
< 1356833615 259230 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it will always work across TUs
< 1356833629 467904 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :C++, always protecting the programmer from mistakes
< 1356833785 21518 :etb!~flood0r2@173.255.247.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :except failing :(
< 1356833788 165681 :etb!~flood0r2@173.255.247.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :surely we can agree there
< 1356833902 860394 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, C++ is great
< 1356833925 420477 :etb!~flood0r2@173.255.247.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :psh
< 1356833958 232163 :etb!~flood0r2@173.255.247.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :who said otherwise? it can't protect programmers from mistakes
< 1356834143 266200 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thor's mother
< 1356835534 507496 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is PLAI considered a good book?
< 1356835665 812576 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"and it makes the book a poor reference guide (you can�t open up to a random page and be sure what it says is correct)."
< 1356835671 788411 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :^^from the book
< 1356835683 140551 :monqy!~help@pool-98-108-214-230.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :???
< 1356835713 391009 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :the programming langage book..... of lies
< 1356835773 179828 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"We will include mistakes, not because I don�t know the answer, but because this is the best way for you to learn. Including mistakes makes it impossible for you to read passively: you must instead engage with the material, because you can never be sure of the veracity of what you�re reading."
< 1356835786 782557 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :Programming with Lies And Incorrectness
< 1356835868 358696 :DHeadshot!~DH____@unaffiliated/dh----/x-6288474 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1356836204 665196 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds
< 1356836279 779718 :nooodl_!~nooodl@91.177.25.167 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1356836540 492294 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Plain text is software and operating system agnostic. It’s searchable, portable, lightweight and easily manipulated.... Since it’s been around since the dawn of computing, it’s safe to say it’s completely future-proof."
< 1356836541 107800 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Racket's custodian stuff is pretty neat
< 1356836573 809016 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: does that predate unicode or no?
< 1356836594 279998 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :no
< 1356836594 954750 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://github.com/ginatrapani/todo.txt-cli/wiki/The-Todo.txt-Format
< 1356836603 960659 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :awesome.
< 1356836609 89768 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, well, in fairness, I think it is safe to say that if current models of text become outdated, there will be converters
< 1356836623 527961 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm sure there's EBIKLSJDFKLJSF->ASCII somewhere
< 1356836630 303256 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't think it would be any better if it predated Unicode
< 1356836635 124437 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :there were many text formats back then
< 1356836648 250512 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :EBCDIC
< 1356836650 531241 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course not, was just curious if it was something in unix's design philosophy or whatever
< 1356836672 513147 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: even better, there's unicode ebcdic.
< 1356836682 610840 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :....why?
< 1356836697 511056 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :UTF-EBCDIC
< 1356836703 359537 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :for dealing with the software that still uses ebcdic, of course.
< 1356836707 175780 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :for the same reason as UTF-8 I expect
< 1356836720 488058 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Its advantages for existing EBCDIC-based systems are similar to UTF-8's advantages for existing ASCII-based systems."
< 1356836762 238318 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway there's no such thing as "plain text", that concept only exists in the mind of english speakers :)
< 1356836776 358069 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why does EBCDIC still exist?
< 1356836787 176696 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :nah i'm pretty sure europeans or whoever don't actually need all those line dealies around their letters
< 1356836787 972764 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Next you'll tell me that COBOL programmers make a lot of money
< 1356836808 696699 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: modern cobol is apparently a pretty good language, i've heard.  used in banks and all
< 1356836824 370958 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The latter point does not support the former point.
< 1356836846 768260 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, read "pretty good" as "better than what you imagine cobol to be based on horror stories from the 70s"
< 1356836867 665011 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does it have non-global variables yet?
< 1356836874 487229 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Actually, I think it does?)
< 1356836876 243523 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think it's even object oriented
< 1356836885 259453 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway it's just the same as legacy anything, you may as well ask why English still uses "'s" to indicate the possessive
< 1356836944 141200 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's status's above reproach
< 1356836969 43286 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-24-128-161-213.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :You mean "its"?
< 1356836976 111209 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :jokes are hard.
< 1356837001 786414 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-24-128-161-213.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I couldn't tell if it was intentional and that was the joke, or the right way was supposed to be the joke.
< 1356837013 813970 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-24-128-161-213.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because they're both insane.
< 1356837015 943064 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it works either way!  that's why it's a good joke.
< 1356837030 419628 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :«"it's"'s status's above reproach», there, grammar
< 1356837030 826489 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-24-128-161-213.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, good. We're on the same page.
< 1356837046 90003 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :except that doesn't actually mean the same thing!  language is a trip
< 1356837079 288389 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a lot of code written for these mainframes
< 1356837081 44711 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it works fine
< 1356837085 393985 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has had the bugs ironed out over decades
< 1356837113 581665 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :open source and startup types want to rewrite everything from scratch every 2 years for fun
< 1356837119 961794 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's very much not how banks and the like work
< 1356837121 591508 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :for good reason
< 1356837129 770043 :sebbu2!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-45-88.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric
< 1356837148 149148 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :great now i'm going to be thinking of startup people in the same category that i put esperantists in
< 1356837148 654050 :sebbu2!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-45-88.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Changing host
< 1356837148 837918 :sebbu2!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu JOIN :#esoteric
< 1356837178 224689 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-24-128-161-213.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hahaha
< 1356837214 574560 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I no longer like Racket Custodians
< 1356837219 165486 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(but english is so illogical!  "though"!!!)
< 1356837242 777975 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :They error if you close one that's not managing anything
< 1356837245 399297 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :also these 40 year old mainframes have features -- hard-core virtualization, fault tolerance, auditing, management, etc. -- that commodity PC hardware is only starting to catch up to
< 1356837270 395898 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :The best batch processing ever, dude
< 1356837275 473453 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :hard-ware?
< 1356837356 210097 :DHeadshot!~DH____@unaffiliated/dh----/x-6288474 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1356837364 796136 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1356838265 677746 :DHeadshot!~DH____@unaffiliated/dh----/x-6288474 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should learn APL one of these days - it seems like a good idea from a historical perspective...
< 1356838276 295587 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :startup types love to feel superior about how much more "agile" they are, but a lot of it comes down to different risk / reward structures
< 1356838284 986194 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :nobody really cares if twitter is down for 2 minutes
< 1356838297 369567 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if VISA is down for 2 minutes, or charges everyone $1 more than they should have, that's a big fucking deal
< 1356838356 626376 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :so yeah I'm glad the banks aren't rushing out to rewrite everything in agile rails at a red bull fueled hackathon
< 1356838389 169563 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-24-128-161-213.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :BUT WE USED NOSQL!
< 1356838415 469266 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :nuclear power plant software rewritten in node.js coffescript
< 1356838419 691266 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :civilization collapses
< 1356838429 41682 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-24-128-161-213.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :KANBAN, FELLOW BROGRAMMER *launch missiles*
< 1356838437 830073 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :DHeadshot: it's pretty easy to find the book online.
< 1356838469 594033 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.foo.be/docs/tpj/issues/vol2_1/tpj0201-0004.html  "Perl and Nuclear Weapons Don't Mix"
< 1356838518 64639 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-24-128-161-213.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, god
< 1356838531 527818 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-24-128-161-213.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I WAS KIDDING
< 1356838531 713078 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/06/08/us_navy_linux_drones/
< 1356838545 511735 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :is this going to be a floating point thing
< 1356838553 24499 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jafet: nice
< 1356838566 879262 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :associativity, even better.
< 1356838588 142487 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i look forward to hackers taking over these drones using built-in support for the Econet protocol or the Rez Trance Vibrator
< 1356838613 289713 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :terrorism's gonna get even more fun
< 1356838616 750175 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah
< 1356838628 208273 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's the plot of call of duty modern warfare 2
< 1356838636 101804 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't remind me
< 1356838638 415588 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :That sounds better than UAV bombers with ILOVEYOU virus
< 1356838642 549110 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait not that one
< 1356838654 570459 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :black ops 2
< 1356838655 930997 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, this guy assumed exponentiation is left associative?  i thought everyone used it right associatively
< 1356838664 658328 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(where "everyone" = "people who seriously chain exponentiation")
< 1356838671 722820 :Fiora!~Fiora@ec2-50-17-93-47.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :"That's a big problem when your $a, or 2 * ($p - $p0) / $rho in my code, is about two million, your $b is 0.52, and your $c is 2. Perl ends up disagreeing with physics by a factor of more than four, and in such battles physics wins. This error went undetected as my Perl code was translated into C using the Perl Compiler, from C into machine code, and then was burned into missile EPROMs. Six weeks later, the missiles were interred in 
< 1356838672 73997 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Menendez is successfully captured, but this was a ruse for Menendez to hack into the U.S. military's computer infrastructure on the aircraft carrier the U.S.S. Obama, seizing control the the United States' entire drone fleet"
< 1356838676 732 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :bahahahaha
< 1356838679 194073 :Fiora!~Fiora@ec2-50-17-93-47.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow
< 1356838702 699235 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-24-128-161-213.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jesus.
< 1356838707 151265 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The US government can directly combine GPL and proprietary/classified software into a single program arbitrarily, as long as the result is never conveyed outside the U.S. government"
< 1356838709 652462 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"U.S.S. Obama"
< 1356838713 58764 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're not serious
< 1356838719 904487 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :cool, the US government has realized what Google and friends realized a long time ago
< 1356838733 577171 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is that open source is great if you are a big org that can do all modifications in-house
< 1356838798 342377 :sebbu2!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1356838844 273985 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-45-88.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric
< 1356838849 603057 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess Haskell's =~ is also bad
< 1356838853 367656 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Reading article now)
< 1356838864 627777 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-45-88.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Changing host
< 1356838864 812407 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu JOIN :#esoteric
< 1356838887 532399 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :this reminds me a bit of that aritlce on NORAD's response to 9/11
< 1356839154 145955 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Ray Piodasoll no longer works for NORAD in Colorado Springs, but occasionally writes articles intended to be published in April, toward the beginning of the month."
< 1356839242 927718 :lightquake!lightquake@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fe93:ec71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.foo.be/docs/tpj/issues/vol3_1/tpj0301-0010.html
< 1356839248 926193 :lightquake!lightquake@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fe93:ec71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"For users with typing - aggravated injuries, the Perl Machine comes with three foot pedals, for $, @, and %."
< 1356839410 233080 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's no joke
< 1356839422 83486 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :my coworker has the 3 foot pedal add-on for the Kinesis contoured keyboard
< 1356839806 621277 :DHeadshot!~DH____@unaffiliated/dh----/x-6288474 PRIVMSG #esoteric :A CyKey would make much more sense...
< 1356839893 188667 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :skeptical of the claim that CyKey can be learned up to speed within a few hours
< 1356839897 486150 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yeah, chording keyboards are cool
< 1356839926 427596 :DHeadshot!~DH____@unaffiliated/dh----/x-6288474 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or, y'know, a better programming language, given the limitations of scripting languages...
< 1356840008 620 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-24-128-161-213.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh my god. That looks insane
< 1356840058 221327 :tbc!ce35100f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.206.53.16.15 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1356840147 139769 :tbc!ce35100f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.206.53.16.15 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Any fans of the TV show Elementary here?
< 1356840208 614122 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-24-128-161-213.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haven't watched it. I can't imagine it topping Sherlock.
< 1356840326 627262 :tbc!ce35100f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.206.53.16.15 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's an interesting take on the Holmes character. I popped in here because Malbolge was part of the plot in the episode titled The Leviathan.
< 1356840332 784581 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :is this a show where they solve mysteries but each episode also revolves around a particular element of the periodic table?
< 1356840344 583754 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i would watch that
< 1356840346 594014 :tbc!ce35100f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.206.53.16.15 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: heh
< 1356840354 880756 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, hey, the malbolge thing was brought up here before
< 1356840359 931973 :tbc!ce35100f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.206.53.16.15 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah
< 1356840381 457495 :tbc!ce35100f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.206.53.16.15 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I googled it, found esolang.org, and popped in to say hi.
< 1356840406 308885 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :`welcome tbc
< 1356840409 368844 :tbc!ce35100f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.206.53.16.15 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I watched it on DVR, so i guess I'm behind.
< 1356840416 806593 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :guh, bots are hard.
< 1356840422 778838 :tbc!ce35100f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.206.53.16.15 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thanks, Bike.
< 1356840436 381560 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :tbc: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
< 1356840440 8871 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha!
< 1356840454 526910 :tbc!ce35100f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.206.53.16.15 PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh
< 1356840475 637053 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott JOIN :#esoteric
< 1356840483 297751 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wonder if getting onto BBC constitutes deployment
< 1356840488 928717 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i hear someone watched that malbolge episode
< 1356840515 610080 :tbc!ce35100f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.206.53.16.15 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, elliott.
< 1356840528 811139 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi!!
< 1356840562 852908 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should grep the wiki logs to see if I can find out where the people behind it looked at the article on Malbolge, assuming they used the wiki
< 1356840610 727257 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :did they actually use information they couldn't have just guessed from the wikipedia article?
< 1356840619 661018 :tbc!ce35100f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.206.53.16.15 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Might be hard to correlate.
< 1356840628 421379 :monqy!~help@pool-98-108-214-230.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :well malbolge is--yes it's ``notable'' enough to have a wikipedia article
< 1356840706 518257 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the wikipedia article is a bit copied from ours
< 1356840709 827516 :tbc!ce35100f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.206.53.16.15 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Grr. I already deleted the episode. I should have transcribed the frame where they showed  a fragment of a Malobolge program. It was a romping story.
< 1356840722 606798 :monqy!~help@pool-98-108-214-230.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Non-English-based_programming_languages wow what a list
< 1356840725 60412 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :wikipedia says it's the hello world program from wikipedia
< 1356840728 446102 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :with some arbitrary changes
< 1356840729 108727 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :tbc: Do you remember some about it?
< 1356840739 10914 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks, wikipedia
< 1356840741 882456 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should actually watch that I guess
< 1356840751 665245 :tbc!ce35100f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.206.53.16.15 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38 about the episode, you mean?
< 1356840759 167130 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :tbc: Yes
< 1356840770 920066 :tbc!ce35100f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.206.53.16.15 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just finished watching it. Why do you ask?
< 1356840773 443462 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :«Hindawi Programming System (hereafter referred to as HPS) is a suite of open source programming languages. It allows non-English medium literates to learn and write computer programs.» "literates"
< 1356840793 360286 :monqy!~help@pool-98-108-214-230.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fj%C3%B6lnir_(programming_language) an exciting new world of programming languages i cant read
< 1356840796 191481 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Indic C++"
< 1356840815 991945 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"HPS uses Romenagri transliteration to first convert the high level source code into a compiler acceptable format and then uses an existing compiler to produce machine code." ...transliteration?
< 1356840817 703810 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :tbc: Because I am curious what they did with malbolge.
< 1356840980 334441 :tbc!ce35100f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.206.53.16.15 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38 to summarize: The story was about a copycat breakin to a high security vauilt called Leviathan. Malbolge was the original mastermind's choice for cracking the RNG portion of the vault's secuirty system. Total Hollywood. But it made me curious about Malbolge. Other than the fact that the language is impractical, they did a decent job of representing it.
< 1356841042 909457 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK
< 1356841059 799275 :tbc!ce35100f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.206.53.16.15 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It only played a small part of the plot. But crucial. Relied on a software engineer recognizing a Malbolge program printed on a scrap of paper.
< 1356841095 331951 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK
< 1356841112 839661 :tbc!ce35100f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.206.53.16.15 PRIVMSG #esoteric :A good excuse to watch the episode. I'd never heard of the language or esolang.org. So I'm glad I dropped by.
< 1356841116 462481 :tbc!ce35100f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.206.53.16.15 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Here, I mean.)
< 1356841128 449650 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not sure how anyone could reliably distinguish malbolge from line noise (not that line noise is really produced anymore)
< 1356841154 114035 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-24-128-161-213.hsd1.nh.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1356841188 743190 :tbc!ce35100f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.206.53.16.15 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bike, Holmes even made a reference to the crypic nature of the language. Maybe the writers googled "cryptic programming language."
< 1356841226 414429 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have seen an article about esoteric programming in some magazine.
< 1356841241 171381 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :tbc: heh, intercal is the fourth result for that on google.
< 1356841255 808852 :tbc!ce35100f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.206.53.16.15 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*chuckle*
< 1356841268 235221 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :My own esolangs seem to be mentioned only in Japanese, somehow.
< 1356841302 147514 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :with quotes, it's LOLCODE.  glad they didn't go with that
< 1356841308 696949 :tbc!ce35100f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.206.53.16.15 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is using webchat on an iPad and begs forgiveness if his connection goes stale while he shifts focus to another browser tab
< 1356841315 879800 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh, and Kvikkalkul, gotta dig that
< 1356841354 67575 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like INTERCAL and Kvikkalkul too.
< 1356841528 705507 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :#' is the functor of the Lisp world.
< 1356841562 890957 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :what on earth does that mean
< 1356841580 562160 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Every Lisp and its mother uses #' to mean something unrelated from what other Lisps use it for
< 1356841592 279600 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's racket use it for?
< 1356841596 744702 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :syntax-quote
< 1356841609 641990 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :#'(+ 1 2) is (syntax (+ 1 2)) which is a syntax object
< 1356841632 755540 :sebbu2!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-45-88.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric
< 1356841651 799966 :sebbu2!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-45-88.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Changing host
< 1356841651 984627 :sebbu2!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu JOIN :#esoteric
< 1356841660 415231 :tbc!ce35100f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.206.53.16.15 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fascinating. I've never had occasion to use #' in Emacs Lisp.
< 1356841670 108936 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :<technomancy> Sgeo: elisp uses it to mean "hey everyone, I'm a CL programmer who either doesn't understand that this doesn't do anything in elisp or wants to vaguely protest that fact."
< 1356841670 579735 :tbc!ce35100f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.206.53.16.15 PRIVMSG #esoteric :FWIW, a few fans twittered about Malbolge this week in connection with Elementary.
< 1356841692 793666 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, right, elisp doesn't have reder macros.
< 1356841707 522392 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't the iPad keep tabs properly or something
< 1356841713 634726 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought it was just the iPhone browser that was awful at that
< 1356841717 509599 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, how do you use "functor" for something unrelated, it has a pretty straightforward definition
< 1356841743 728505 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bike, in Prolog, in a term like foo(1, 2), the functor is foo
< 1356841761 111247 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's like FUNCTion -- OR is it?
< 1356841769 100405 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :In Standard ML, it's something to do with the module system, I think, I'm not really sure
< 1356841769 892504 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bike: ML uses "functor" for "module function"
< 1356841772 351326 :tbc!ce35100f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.206.53.16.15 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ellliott, I've found Safari on iPad to lose its mind on a regular basis. Bad caching algorithm, IMO. But so far so good. I've been able to jump around and still stay connected.
< 1356841779 322851 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :C++ uses it for, um, "closure", more or less
< 1356841785 767671 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Closure?
< 1356841790 612370 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, "function-y object"
< 1356841793 819431 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out
< 1356841794 610323 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, that sucks
< 1356841800 303251 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :"things that have operator()"
< 1356841810 98521 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :A poor man's closure?!
< 1356841817 715907 :glogbackup!~glogbacku@64.31.59.246 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1356841895 727832 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haskell functions are functors too! See how much C++ and Haskell have in common?
< 1356841897 64966 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :>.>
< 1356841924 415925 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Shouldn't a functor be, a homomorphism from one category to another (possibly same one)?
< 1356842203 408121 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-45-88.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric
< 1356842223 766701 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-45-88.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Changing host
< 1356842223 953362 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu JOIN :#esoteric
< 1356842338 753310 :tbc!ce35100f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.206.53.16.15 QUIT :Quit: Page closed
< 1356842404 766878 :sebbu2!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1356842418 662766 :glogbackup!~glogbacku@64.31.59.246 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1356842648 95926 :tbc!ce35100f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.206.53.16.15 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1356842689 929400 :tbc!ce35100f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.206.53.16.15 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION finds the limit to iPad Safari's buffering
< 1356842711 904377 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :congrats
< 1356842719 687264 :tbc!ce35100f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.206.53.16.15 PRIVMSG #esoteric :meh
< 1356842720 220412 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: apparently it's not always!
< 1356842750 814997 :tbc!ce35100f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.206.53.16.15 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, I had a lot of tabs open. Switched to Chrome now. Hoping that helps. I like to multitask. iPad is wrong platform for me. :)
< 1356843256 657608 :tbc!ce35100f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.206.53.16.15 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, capping off my fascination, http://www.google.com/search?q=malbolge+sherlock points to some good chatter. The first search result includes a screenshot from the show. They just reproduced the hello, world program. Fun.
< 1356843350 345050 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's bizarre
< 1356843351 886478 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :but also cool!
< 1356843490 626524 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm, I wonder if Ben Olmstead (the language's inventor) knows
< 1356843496 299555 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should email him
< 1356843553 413695 :tbc!ce35100f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.206.53.16.15 PRIVMSG #esoteric :good idea
< 1356843615 455839 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Racket languages aren't very composable, are they?
< 1356843616 618299 :tbc!ce35100f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.206.53.16.15 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, I red the log. I didn't see your comment about Wikipedia until now.
< 1356843627 51030 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :What if I want to use two features from two languages at the same time
< 1356843646 110244 :monqy!~help@pool-98-108-214-230.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does "feature" mean here
< 1356843660 59998 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :clearly you need composition-friendly pseudomonadic interpreters
< 1356843670 120330 :monqy!~help@pool-98-108-214-230.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-)
< 1356843745 973653 :tbc!ce35100f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.206.53.16.15 QUIT :Quit: Page closed
< 1356843759 403890 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Someone actually implemented Racket-style macros in Clojure I think
< 1356845773 529987 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1356845794 681958 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-24-128-161-213.hsd1.nh.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1356845811 612065 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin JOIN :#esoteric
< 1356846551 234652 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake JOIN :#esoteric
< 1356846932 91033 :tbc!ce35100f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.206.53.16.15 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1356847008 98847 :tbc!ce35100f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.206.53.16.15 QUIT :Client Quit
< 1356847020 59949 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't like racket's macros
< 1356847025 530652 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i have not used them much
< 1356847041 279200 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION still doesn't have a strong grasp of hygienic macros in general
< 1356847053 796987 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And am a bit uncertain of how Racket macros differ from typical Scheme macros
< 1356847093 113828 :tbc!ce35100f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.206.53.16.15 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1356847101 886714 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess there are two layers
< 1356847137 721999 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the bottom layer lets you manipulate programs as data, but it's fairly cumbersome because the quotation captures lexical scope and other stuff
< 1356847150 441419 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the upper layer is a variety of DSLs to make common macros easier to write
< 1356847167 844930 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't like the bottom layer because it's cumbersome and I don't like the top layer because it defeats nearly the entire point of lisp
< 1356847168 886193 :tbc!ce35100f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.206.53.16.15 QUIT :Client Quit
< 1356847210 500365 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :racket has backquote, doesn't it?
< 1356847213 860358 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1356847214 775243 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, only having the top layer but not the bottom layer would me more Lisp-defeaty
< 1356847223 42655 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bike: yeah
< 1356847224 757271 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :So the bottom layer should be made more ... convenient somehow
< 1356847237 737830 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-45-88.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric
< 1356847238 99144 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-45-88.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Changing host
< 1356847238 282979 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu JOIN :#esoteric
< 1356847239 399249 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm, so what do you mean by "cumbersome" exactly?
< 1356847264 91170 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :well a macro is not supposed to return a naked lisp-style list of symbols and such
< 1356847267 799723 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's supposed to return a syntax object
< 1356847275 722053 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://docs.racket-lang.org/guide/stx-obj.html
< 1356847292 757718 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is a more complicated thing that captures a source location and a lexical scope as well
< 1356847296 562084 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that's how it manages hygeine
< 1356847300 394616 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, makes sense
< 1356847341 733317 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's what this #' syntax gives you
< 1356847347 998220 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i assume there is #` as well, but have not seen it
< 1356847367 430629 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :now as it happens Racket does support Lisp-style unhygenic macros, but it's not the preferred system
< 1356847443 422916 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :my tentative opinion is that it's not that difficult to maintain hygeine with "unhygenic" macros
< 1356847449 405570 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and they are much simpler to understand
< 1356847472 668088 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and they give you a very direct way to do unhygenic things when that's what you want
< 1356847493 211293 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, i don't think i've really wanted hygenic macros except for one time
< 1356847519 205280 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :you need some kind of auto-gensym syntax, which should be in the standard library but is easy enough to implement as a macro, anyway
< 1356847534 407617 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but, and maybe this is just me being naïve, from this article it seems like it'd be pretty easy to make a defmacro wrapper that lets you return lisp-style but wraps it properly in a syntax object
< 1356847551 11415 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah i'm not sure
< 1356847604 973216 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i prefer operatives to all of this, but they're pretty far out experimental tech
< 1356847610 429396 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially as far as efficient implementation goes
< 1356847612 67825 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i can see why you'd want syntax objects, though, I know CL systems have all kinds of weirdness to allow source context information and "de-macrotizing" for debugging
< 1356847615 61720 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :operatives?
< 1356847630 302813 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah
< 1356847633 775650 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :here is my little writeup about it: http://mainisusuallyafunction.blogspot.com/2012/04/scheme-without-special-forms.html
< 1356847639 442294 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :with links to other stuff
< 1356847654 327851 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, fexprs
< 1356847658 922251 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah
< 1356847667 984109 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i should try implementing kernel again but this time take efficiency more seriously
< 1356847669 511110 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :lexically scoped fexprs
< 1356847701 179005 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i suppose read his thesis instead of just the "standard"
< 1356847711 78751 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah
< 1356847714 352912 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i read part of the thesis
< 1356847722 796466 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's pretty long and rambly though ;P
< 1356847726 981986 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it about vau?
< 1356847738 11970 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe i can implement kernel in pypy and it will magically be fast
< 1356847743 144085 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :hahaha
< 1356847753 355147 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION goes to read http://www.reddit.com/r/Racket/comments/13cdy9/fear_of_macros_a_macro_tutorial/
< 1356847772 523740 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, i'm not sure how you'd implement it fast, really.  compilation i don't even know how i'd start, and having the lexical environment available arbitrarily seems like it'd inhibit a lot of optimizations
< 1356847789 667767 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :handwave JIT compiler
< 1356847798 618813 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :in a JIT your optimizations don't need to be sound in general, just in the common case
< 1356847808 40562 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :geh
< 1356847810 739222 :sebbu2!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-45-88.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric
< 1356847811 174816 :sebbu2!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-45-88.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Changing host
< 1356847811 358980 :sebbu2!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu JOIN :#esoteric
< 1356847824 539820 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :for example if somebody modifies an environment, you can just throw out compiled code
< 1356847843 696990 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :mm, hadn't thought if it that way
< 1356847862 472047 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :a good JIT could really kick some ass even on static languages
< 1356847888 616554 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :dynamically optimizing for the common case, with stronger assumptions than any static compiler can make
< 1356847901 686085 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can make those assumptions and then perform constant folding, inlining, dead-code elimination, etc
< 1356847929 151389 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :PyPy is based on the observation that an interpreter running inside a tracing JIT sort of magically becomes a tracing JIT itself
< 1356847929 336048 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously my compiler powerlevel is not yet high enough :(
< 1356848028 401803 :Fiora!~Fiora@ec2-50-17-93-47.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can do a lot of those "optimizations based on the common case" without a JIT too though
< 1356848037 587331 :Fiora!~Fiora@ec2-50-17-93-47.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :like that optimization where you branch based on whether pointers alias or not, with the common case being they don't
< 1356848039 726475 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1356848042 529321 :Fiora!~Fiora@ec2-50-17-93-47.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :letting the compiler assume they don't alias even though they could
< 1356848056 510809 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah
< 1356848067 488962 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :for high-level dynamically typed languages, there will be a huge number of paths though
< 1356848069 349256 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: hm, you say you have a cleaner alternative to quote, do you mean eval in operatives everywhere?
< 1356848106 138392 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :like all the different types each argument to a function could take
< 1356848122 438910 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bike: what do you mean?
< 1356848163 429920 :Fiora!~Fiora@ec2-50-17-93-47.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose you could use a profiler to figure out the most common types for a non-JIT compiler?
< 1356848169 556819 :Fiora!~Fiora@ec2-50-17-93-47.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yeah, JIT seems convenient there
< 1356848212 687541 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: "As it happens, quote is used sparingly in Qoppa. There is usually a cleaner alternative, as we'll see."
< 1356848224 243716 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then "we selectively evaluate using eval, rather than selectively suppressing evaluation using quote."
< 1356848254 580277 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i suppose that does help destroy the hygeine problem though
< 1356848334 256070 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :well you don't need quote because you aren't returning code
< 1356848351 539341 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :operatives can do the wacky things that macros do, but in a dynamic and direct way, rather than by generating code
< 1356848369 962982 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course if you want macros you can build them pretty easily
< 1356848374 572019 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah
< 1356848396 242077 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :operatives are basically hygenic because, since you're not generating code, you're not generating variable names
< 1356848407 168281 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the reason i tripped up on compiling it was because with macros, that's just a preprocessor, so the compiler only has to special-case special forms (and a few other forms like function calls)
< 1356848418 39497 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a big difference between "a list with the symbol 'map' in it" and "a list with the value of the operative we currently call 'map' in it"
< 1356848424 128724 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but with operatives i'm not sure how you could do anything at compile time
< 1356848438 134764 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, constant folding and inlining
< 1356848454 240937 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :handwave magic JIT compiler
< 1356848459 819242 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :stop handwaving gah
< 1356848468 302698 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think a static compiler for an operative-based language would be a really bad idea
< 1356848474 32425 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's what we do in pl research
< 1356848476 455287 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :handwave everything
< 1356848479 938793 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially given how JITs are kicking ass in various other fields
< 1356848489 698338 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to make the second C preprocessor with various purposes including that it will delete duplicate definitions, move things out that belong out, make pool strings, and to allow a definition of an object in one place having it to move everything around to the right places for it to do that (for example: lists, functions, name, enum, struct members, etc)
< 1356848514 296902 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :greh, it just seems like you ought to be able to do something statically.  but i hardly know anything about jits so i'm just in the past probably
< 1356848522 479093 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :would you write a static compiler for Lua or JavaScript?
< 1356848528 46769 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, you could
< 1356848534 33067 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't think it would be that useful
< 1356848541 707956 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i also know hardly anything about JITs
< 1356848551 544340 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know just enough to be pretty sure that they are the right answer here
< 1356848598 103337 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :guess i'll make it even more of a learning experience then
< 1356848622 906765 :Fiora!~Fiora@ec2-50-17-93-47.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I only know a little about JITs for emulation really which is kinda different
< 1356848629 458715 :Fiora!~Fiora@ec2-50-17-93-47.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and has slightly more obnoxious speed constraints   usually
< 1356848652 732510 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :do angry java clients count as obnoxious speed constraints
< 1356848669 608152 :Fiora!~Fiora@ec2-50-17-93-47.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD
< 1356848774 450543 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice somebody already did it in PyPy: https://github.com/timfel/qoppy
< 1356848783 115977 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://blog.bithug.org/2012/08/qoppa
< 1356848842 563441 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :$macro(linkedlist,x) $type(t) typedef struct t { x data; struct t*next; } t;
< 1356848858 557469 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's cool that something i made made its way into a talk that was given in berlin
< 1356848869 709746 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :berlin is a cool city and this raises my own coolness by transitive property
< 1356848870 979401 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Would this be OK to you?
< 1356848873 226401 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm afraid the misplaced apostrophe has replaced any interest with blind hatred
< 1356848882 142801 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :which?
< 1356848887 842324 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fexpr's
< 1356848897 912956 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh
< 1356848899 910964 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :whatever
< 1356848900 642949 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bike: you should chill and stop caring about that s'tuff
< 1356848902 519009 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're probably german
< 1356848905 811317 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i did it made my life much better
< 1356848911 321732 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'll say thank's elliott
< 1356848917 723979 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :thank's elliot
< 1356848922 947694 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :speaking of which homestuck updated
< 1356848935 210053 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :thank's - eliot
< 1356848990 539018 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: qoppa is yours right
< 1356848993 774386 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :thank's
< 1356849151 148966 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :qoppa is cool
< 1356849351 654388 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is mine yeah
< 1356849387 154883 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it just me or does the qoppa article on wikipedia read like zzo38 wrote it?
< 1356849401 335933 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :what, on the letter?
< 1356849405 412893 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe i should drop out of society and become an anarcho-crypto-punk-hacker-homeless-bum in berlin
< 1356849418 573259 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but hagb4rd is already here
< 1356849428 304644 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :my entirely fair perception is that roughly one out of every five structures in berlin is a hackerspace or a new media art collective
< 1356849442 696013 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :so presumably i can find places to stay
< 1356849471 534895 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: i don't see it
< 1356849516 953957 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: oh, yesterday was the 100th birthday of MUNI!
< 1356849531 945181 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :why is there a qoppa article on wikipedia
< 1356849538 31725 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a greek letter
< 1356849539 948598 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh do you mean the letter
< 1356849548 726562 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i thought somehow kmc's language was ~notable~
< 1356849577 999348 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Oh, I didn't hear.
< 1356849584 473107 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :"With only two bucks and a bit of patience, you can hop on some combination of buses, trains and streetcars"
< 1356849589 230205 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh, all of the trains are streetcars
< 1356849602 708581 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :o well
< 1356849603 180814 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :now i'm wondering if anyone's actually made a language called "lambda"
< 1356849611 125951 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe it only counts as a streetcar when it's in the street
< 1356849612 4119 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-24-128-161-213.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sometimes I accidentally click the Simple English Wikipedia link without realizing it and wonder what the hell has happened to it.
< 1356849646 793429 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh it can be named after the phage
< 1356849745 756313 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-24-128-161-213.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bike: Make a theorem prover in Unlambda, call it Ununlambda, and let logic work it out.
< 1356849787 137638 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :psh, classical logic
< 1356849976 165985 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :«The background chapters also concern themselves not only with how programming languages specify computations (semantics), but with how programming languages influence the way programmers think (psychological bias)» is this what you meant by "rambling", kmc
< 1356849992 42351 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't remember which part was rambly, just that i had that impression
< 1356850009 883540 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a lot of cool stuff in there, don't get me wrong
< 1356850033 987531 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :no i know, i just don't think i want to hear programming people talk about psychological anything too much
< 1356850041 800196 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :call it ununnilium
< 1356850061 245997 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bike: yeah there is the danger of programmers assuming we are experts in everything
< 1356850121 500075 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's also easy to lose sight of the fact that practical programming language design is a human-computer interaction problem
< 1356850130 479273 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :so maybe some of that perspective is nice
< 1356850139 393249 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is bike's quote a quote from
< 1356850147 495360 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :jshutt's thesis
< 1356850184 168869 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: maybe i'm just cynical wrt programming language designers' ability to solve hci problems
< 1356850233 487243 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :cynical wrt programming language designers's ability to solve programming language design problems
< 1356850246 248082 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep
< 1356850299 316594 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah
< 1356850349 495106 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it does seem that there is something of a disconnect between the people who are obsessed with minor syntactic tweaks to JavaScript and the people who are obsessed with strange theoretical constructs nobody understands
< 1356850364 143997 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :you need these groups to get along to make a good language, i think
< 1356850388 173164 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :one of the things I like about Haskell is that it gets a lot of "minor" usability things right
< 1356850391 761134 :monqy!~help@pool-98-108-214-230.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dont think i'd be able to get along with anyone obsessed with minor syntactic tweaks to javascript
< 1356850395 617825 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :in my untrained opinion
< 1356850421 986237 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: and thus we come to the heart of the problem.
< 1356850425 929022 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i can happily state i will never get along with people who are obsessed about minor syntactic tweaks to javascript
< 1356850436 128769 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and they actually aren't that minor because they are a large part of what makes the language nice to use
< 1356850451 974533 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :even if they have nothing to do with purity or monads or whatever
< 1356850500 832766 :monqy!~help@pool-98-108-214-230.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice to use for syntax obsessives!!!!
< 1356850550 508980 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: o
< 1356850581 842399 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe i should just adopt the attitude i have towards spoken language design, and wait for C to grow hylomorphisms by itself
< 1356850635 461367 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :like leaving food at the back of the cupbord to see what kind of fungus grows on it
< 1356850654 892679 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i happen to like fungi!  so that all works out nicely
< 1356850744 388838 :monqy!~help@pool-98-108-214-230.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :leave javascript at the back of the cupboard so it grows a syntax i like(maybe some semantics too???)
< 1356850758 353261 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net QUIT :Quit: sleep
< 1356850777 429294 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh bike left before i could geek out about fungi
< 1356850779 687814 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :sad
< 1356850808 828966 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: do you like making space leaks go away in haskell
< 1356850818 484283 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: missed connections time
< 1356850838 655862 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :foo :: [a] -> [a]
< 1356850838 871579 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :foo xs = evalState (traverse (\d -> do { _ <- get; return d }) xs) () -- doesn't leak
< 1356850841 691566 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :foo xs = evalState (traverse (\d -> do { !_ <- get; return d }) xs) () -- leaks
< 1356850848 30649 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can Anything Be Done?
< 1356850858 126435 :monqy!~help@pool-98-108-214-230.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes you can use the first
< 1356850865 364981 :monqy!~help@pool-98-108-214-230.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :problem solved???
< 1356850892 909786 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :no :'(
< 1356850902 376041 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The real code has an input list as a state.
< 1356850913 975708 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :give up and use deepSeq
< 1356850918 303402 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait
< 1356850921 200073 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the opposite of that
< 1356850928 932409 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :And each action takes one element off the input list and returns it.
< 1356850934 546618 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it has to be state-strict.
< 1356850993 699588 :asiekierka!~asiekierk@fluttershy.pl QUIT :Excess Flood
< 1356851001 707126 :monqy!~help@pool-98-108-214-230.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Q: why are you asking me
< 1356851048 459229 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :A: you seem like an expert
< 1356851173 155810 :asiekierka!~asiekierk@fluttershy.pl JOIN :#esoteric
< 1356851192 181492 :monqy!~help@pool-98-108-214-230.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :????????????????????
< 1356851218 552681 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :what.....
< 1356851461 339203 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: are you an expert in corepresentable profunctors too
< 1356851478 481192 :monqy!~help@pool-98-108-214-230.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric ::^)
< 1356851495 426624 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric ::v⌒
< 1356851546 111849 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :⌒̈
< 1356851559 784754 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That COMBINING DIAERESIS didn't even COMBINe.
< 1356851661 836339 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :AUTHENTIC DECOMMISSIONED MUSEUM QUALITY DIAERESIS
< 1356851725 46462 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :DIÆRESIS
< 1356851741 446748 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :A Unicode codepoint ought to be able to use all the previous codepoints in its name.
< 1356851752 431845 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :THE HOSPITAL SURPRISE ME WITH DIAERESIS
< 1356851859 375553 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION takes back his anger at Racket custodians. The documentation was poorly worded.
< 1356851906 679271 :monqy!~help@pool-98-108-214-230.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi
< 1356851917 652616 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi
< 1356852494 522728 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: are the names ASCII in reality?
< 1356852523 124937 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think they're ALL UPPER CASE ENGLISH LETTERS PLUS SPACES AND HYPHENS
< 1356852547 217533 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think there is "LOW-9" though, is one of the names using digits
< 1356852560 76290 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh yeah, digits too.
< 1356852564 551962 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: HYPHEN-MINUSes, you mean.
< 1356852572 229937 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :But most is not using digits.
< 1356852594 807002 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://lists.racket-lang.org/dev/archive/2012-December/011373.html
< 1356852611 598563 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: 'struth X-D
< 1356852615 233812 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Almost all fonts render the HYPHEN-MINUS as a hyphen.
< 1356852630 323983 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION isn't sure how they're supposed to be specified.
< 1356852648 862270 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ion: The thing about HYPHEN-MINUS is that there's a dash between the HYPHEN and the MINUS.
< 1356852654 18175 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :They refuse to admit it.
< 1356852657 398819 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :HYPHEN DASH MINUS
< 1356852669 496672 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :HYPHEN HYPHEN-MINUS MINUS
< 1356852678 704019 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :damn, there’s still a HYPHEN-MINUS in the middle.
< 1356852683 107953 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :An EN DASH?
< 1356852685 392003 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :HYPHEN HYPHEN HYPHEN-MINUS MINUS MINUS
< 1356852705 588725 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :HYPHEN HYPHEN HYPHEN HYPHEN HYPHEN HYPHEN HYPHEN HYPHEN MINUS MINUS
< 1356852723 868110 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :When they finish decoding the hieroglyphs, we might have a BOULDER DASH.
< 1356852748 343805 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/cjb/codepoints.html
< 1356852760 201690 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :2042   ASTERISM     [⁂]
< 1356852805 154468 :Nisstyre-laptop!~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre JOIN :#esoteric
< 1356852840 679742 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :"In 2007, four Apache helicopters were destroyed on the ground by Iraqi insurgent mortar fire; the insurgents had made use of embedded coordinates in web-published photographs (geotagging) taken of the helicopters by soldiers."
< 1356852861 130736 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lenticular brackets! Lens should use these. 【 】 〖 〗 ︗ ︘ ︻ ︼
< 1356852884 778097 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :๛
< 1356852891 982508 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's a great character!
< 1356852906 174742 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Verily.
< 1356852931 582890 :monqy!~help@pool-98-108-214-230.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes
< 1356853085 237105 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :⚣
< 1356853155 609451 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jafet: haha wow
< 1356853353 200008 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The two planes 15 and 16, called Supplementary Private Use Area-A and -B (or simply Private Use Area (PUA)) are available for character assignment by parties outside the ISO and the Unicode Consortium. They are used by fonts internally to refer to auxiliary glyphs, for example, ligatures and building blocks for other glyphs. Such characters will have limited interoperability. Software and fonts that support Unicode will not necessarily ...
< 1356853359 283395 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :... support character assignments by other parties.
< 1356853393 621028 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-24-128-161-213.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :🎢
< 1356853437 562774 :epicmonkey!~epicmonke@188.134.41.173 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1356853503 679826 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :🎢? I 'ardly know 'er!
< 1356854131 837405 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i read that ISO 10646 initially allocated some private use areas in the range beyond Unicode
< 1356854147 439508 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :#fail #wtf #iso10646facts
< 1356854238 498806 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would join #iso10646facts if it was a real channel.
< 1356854321 120822 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: How's your web-based IRC replacement thing?
< 1356854514 804803 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :λ> :t let fromInteger = id in 5
< 1356854515 952329 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Integer
< 1356854519 554291 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: it's going
< 1356854528 518725 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it out yet?
< 1356854539 192702 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :we have various groups using it
< 1356854550 455829 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not widely available yet
< 1356854697 392211 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jafet: we can already make a BOLDER DASH
< 1356854815 534902 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Does your laptop have "nvidia optimus"?
< 1356856238 633220 :epicmonkey!~epicmonke@188.134.41.173 QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds
< 1356856292 186875 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :In this Dungeons&Dragons game, the candles lit fire much bigger, but we managed to escape through a hole into the next room, with tables where some people were playing cards. I have several idea what to do next; do you know?
< 1356856426 426683 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Play cards with them?
< 1356856457 220959 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :That was one of my ideas but I have other things which I can do first.
< 1356856463 145294 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I already prevented the door from opening.
< 1356856499 110973 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: no
< 1356856516 486141 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has "intel adequacy"
< 1356856519 608433 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I intend to use "Control Sound", to make the screaming in the room with the fire.
< 1356856541 915388 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: I wish I had "intel adequacy" :-(
< 1356856549 157967 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you have?
< 1356856553 685267 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :"nvidia optimus"
< 1356856751 714890 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :pessimus
< 1356857016 683806 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :exactly
< 1356857204 80132 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :What happens when I want to mix the laziness of Racket's lazy language with the static typing of Typed Racket?
< 1356857228 663995 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe #clojure would know.
< 1356857514 748908 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin QUIT :Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.
< 1356857622 732024 :Taneb!~nathan@host-2-97-153-98.as13285.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1356857873 752291 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1356858879 154882 :DHeadshot!~DH____@unaffiliated/dh----/x-6288474 QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds
< 1356858968 791433 :DHeadshot!~DH____@unaffiliated/dh----/x-6288474 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1356859757 505309 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-45-88.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric
< 1356859775 845656 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-45-88.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Changing host
< 1356859776 29259 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu JOIN :#esoteric
< 1356859851 766552 :sebbu3!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-45-88.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric
< 1356859868 850266 :sebbu3!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-45-88.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Changing host
< 1356859869 34017 :sebbu3!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu JOIN :#esoteric
< 1356859974 784347 :sebbu2!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1356860079 746279 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1356860844 584706 :Nisstyre-laptop!~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds
< 1356861740 795645 :epicmonkey!~epicmonke@188.134.41.173 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1356862654 773703 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :man, what a world
< 1356862665 553676 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wanted to get a book on english grammar so I asked a finn
< 1356862700 492371 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :man. what a world.
< 1356862827 349425 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :thank you, lambdabot
< 1356862867 707485 :monqy!~help@pool-98-108-214-230.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :<:)
< 1356862882 514458 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: What's that?
< 1356862892 224572 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a goron smiley face, duh
< 1356865383 801622 :monqy!~help@pool-98-108-214-230.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net QUIT :Quit: hello
< 1356866223 814049 :buffer!~buffer@about/security/buffer JOIN :#esoteric
< 1356866576 60093 :sebbu3!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu NICK :sebbu
< 1356867147 684587 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, Racket's defmacro does basically take the sexp->sexp function and wrap it around syntax->datum and ... the other direction
< 1356867552 589245 :WeThePeople!~WeThePeop@unaffiliated/wethepeople QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds
< 1356867590 225234 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds
< 1356868490 695803 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Heavy water is the only known chemical substance that affects the period of circadian oscillations, consistently increasing the length of each cycle. The effect is seen in unicellular organisms, green plants, isopods, insects, birds, mice, and hamsters."
< 1356868495 120792 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :what.
< 1356868597 178139 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi
< 1356868656 487939 :buffer!~buffer@about/security/buffer PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi.
< 1356868667 889098 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi,
< 1356868763 559435 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :What are you buffer than?
< 1356868841 316301 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-24-128-161-213.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :do `you . lift even $ bro`
< 1356868873 2685 :nooodl_!~nooodl@91.177.25.167 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1356868917 57166 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-24-128-161-213.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/\`//g
< 1356868922 892076 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-24-128-161-213.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :derp
< 1356869298 613280 :AnotherTest!~AnotherTe@94-224-28-191.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric
< 1356869428 569898 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Being able to change the semantics of function application sounds fun
< 1356870333 70605 :buffer!~buffer@about/security/buffer NICK :dalai
< 1356870488 643175 :dalai!~buffer@about/security/buffer PART :#esoteric
< 1356874386 157279 :Taneb!~nathan@host-2-97-153-98.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving
< 1356874524 932318 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi.
< 1356874675 928786 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :For any sets a,b,c: if (a n b) != 0 ^ (a n c) != 0 ^ (b n c) != 0 can one conclude (a n b n c) != 0 (n = intersection, 0 = empty set)?
< 1356874795 842126 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :@hoogle intersection
< 1356874796 304573 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Data.IntMap intersection :: IntMap a -> IntMap b -> IntMap a
< 1356874796 488374 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Data.IntSet intersection :: IntSet -> IntSet -> IntSet
< 1356874796 516525 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Data.Set intersection :: Ord a => Set a -> Set a -> Set a
< 1356874804 285827 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm
< 1356874807 381165 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION asks quickcheck
< 1356874927 950046 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :    No instance for (Arbitrary (Set a0))
< 1356874928 954753 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh.
< 1356875015 761740 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman: quickcheck is unable to disprove that statement, at least
< 1356875086 390735 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :let's see. say (intersection a b) has element x. then if (intersection b c) has element x, then so does intersection a (intersection b c)
< 1356875117 48266 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :if (intersection b c) does not have element x, then c does not have element x (since we know b does)
< 1356875146 795699 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :yet I think this cannot be true for *all* x
< 1356875151 683118 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise (intersection a b) would be empty
< 1356875178 31555 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman: um, I'm too tired.
< 1356875188 574895 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ask anyone who isn't sleep deprived and they'll tell you the trivial answer
< 1356875351 31236 :AnotherTest!~AnotherTe@94-224-28-191.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :(a n b n c) = a ^ b ^ c
< 1356875354 545502 :AnotherTest!~AnotherTe@94-224-28-191.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :so yes
< 1356875382 60546 :AnotherTest!~AnotherTe@94-224-28-191.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :because (a n b) ^ (a n c) = (a ^ b) ^ (a ^ c)
< 1356875388 235590 :AnotherTest!~AnotherTe@94-224-28-191.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :a ^ a = 1
< 1356875409 716413 :AnotherTest!~AnotherTe@94-224-28-191.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :thus a ^ b ^ a ^ c = a ^ b ^ c
< 1356875434 39897 :AnotherTest!~AnotherTe@94-224-28-191.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :(^ is commutative)
< 1356875456 43694 :AnotherTest!~AnotherTe@94-224-28-191.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :long live logic
< 1356875472 123230 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION doesn't see why a ^ b ^ a ^ c couldn't be 0 there.
< 1356875487 749497 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(as in, I doubt your specific reasoning, not the conclusion)
< 1356875508 328320 :AnotherTest!~AnotherTe@94-224-28-191.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :well I proved a n b n c = (a n b) ^ (a n c)
< 1356875524 670895 :AnotherTest!~AnotherTe@94-224-28-191.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :if (a n b) is not the empty set and (a n c) is not the empty set
< 1356875539 329903 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure
< 1356875540 450695 :AnotherTest!~AnotherTe@94-224-28-191.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :then (a n b ) n ( a n c) is not the empty set
< 1356875547 32362 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :...?
< 1356875551 810982 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's certainly not true in general
< 1356875566 373127 :AnotherTest!~AnotherTe@94-224-28-191.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :well then no
< 1356875575 610187 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :a = {1,2,3,4,5,6}, b = {1,2,3}, c = {4,5,6}
< 1356875579 842690 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(a n b) n (a n c) is empty
< 1356875583 256909 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :but (a n b) is not and (a n c) is not
< 1356875583 660352 :AnotherTest!~AnotherTe@94-224-28-191.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :well then the answer is no
< 1356875609 947749 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course, this violates the prerequisites for mroman's statement
< 1356875613 345824 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :since b n c is empty
< 1356875621 221829 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I don't really see how your logic follows, still
< 1356875629 510176 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I am way too tired to be thinking about anything involving more than one symbol
< 1356875656 292304 :AnotherTest!~AnotherTe@94-224-28-191.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh I only saw half of his if statement ((a n b) != 0 ^ (a n c))
< 1356875800 91216 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman: a={AB,AC}, b={BC,AB}, c={BC,AC}
< 1356875807 289707 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :a n b = {AB}
< 1356875812 962040 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :a n c = {AC}
< 1356875817 242171 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :b n c = {BC}
< 1356875825 404161 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :a n b n c = {}
< 1356875863 437222 :AnotherTest!~AnotherTe@94-224-28-191.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's for sets of 2 elements
< 1356875927 250173 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION saw no requirement on length in mroman's question
< 1356875930 918705 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I provided a counterexample
< 1356875960 602113 :AnotherTest!~AnotherTe@94-224-28-191.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, yes I guess
< 1356875976 474151 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe there is no counter-example of length three though
< 1356875984 475354 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :whatever length three means (could be an exists or forall)
< 1356875999 210761 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, that's easy
< 1356876006 800985 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :a={AB,AC,JUNK1}, b={BC,AB,JUNK2}, c={BC,AC,JUNK3}
< 1356876009 280677 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :exact same intersections
< 1356876067 218811 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm.
< 1356876076 751824 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :If (a n b n c) != 0
< 1356876083 214156 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :then they all have one common element?
< 1356876093 355168 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, at least one.
< 1356876095 849070 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman: well that's exactly what it says...
< 1356876098 897469 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :So.
< 1356876104 732690 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :intersection of a, b, c: set of elements that appear in a, b and c
< 1356876110 216501 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you are saying there is at least one element of this set
< 1356876114 851702 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and hence at least one element that appears in a, b and c
< 1356876116 351288 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Exactly
< 1356876120 297164 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :If the all have a common element
< 1356876126 612706 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :then that element must be in a in b and in c
< 1356876133 403619 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes
< 1356876136 43687 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pretty tautological :P
< 1356876136 554812 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it is also in (a n b)
< 1356876140 800759 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it is also in (b n c)
< 1356876145 259486 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :and also in (a n c)
< 1356876147 433044 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, you're going backwards though
< 1356876152 526784 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're deriving your premises from your conclusion
< 1356876158 593968 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah.
< 1356876165 883484 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric ::(
< 1356876168 868473 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :That does not count?
< 1356876225 190981 :AnotherTest!~AnotherTe@94-224-28-191.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :a n b n c = 0 <=> (a n b) n c = 0 => (a n b) != c
< 1356876225 374948 :AnotherTest!~AnotherTe@94-224-28-191.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :a = {1} b = {1} and c = {0} then a n b n c = {}
< 1356876232 500424 :AnotherTest!~AnotherTe@94-224-28-191.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh nvm that
< 1356876232 685159 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you will find (_|_ -> p) vastly easier to prove than (p -> _|_) for many p
< 1356876247 258784 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric ::)
< 1356876256 610149 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :classic logic.
< 1356876264 76433 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :@tell oerjan when you read the logs: i'm sorry it took me to so long to find that obvious counterexample. please don't swat me
< 1356876264 261130 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider it noted.
< 1356876325 803138 :AnotherTest!~AnotherTe@94-224-28-191.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh btw
< 1356876346 435586 :AnotherTest!~AnotherTe@94-224-28-191.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :is (a <=> b) <=> (not (a xor b) )
< 1356876366 981066 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(a <=> b) is a == b
< 1356876371 869891 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :a xor b is a /= b
< 1356876373 229624 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :so yes
< 1356876379 256829 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well.
< 1356876389 912620 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let's assume (a n b) = x, (a n c) = y, (b n c) = z
< 1356876399 548960 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :then c contains at least {y,z}
< 1356876410 471287 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :a contains at least {x,y}
< 1356876411 886394 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1356876418 28322 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :and b contains at least {z,x}
< 1356876450 446155 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :um, you have type errors
< 1356876487 728807 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :> (intersect (intersect [1,2] [1,3]) [2,3])
< 1356876489 284007 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :  []
< 1356876511 965272 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :> intersect [1,2] [1,3]
< 1356876513 471417 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :  [1]
< 1356876521 935857 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :> intersect [1,2] [2,3]
< 1356876523 503031 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :  [2]
< 1356876530 470806 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :> intersect [1,3] [2,3]
< 1356876532 40630 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :  [3]
< 1356876535 221086 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :so.
< 1356876547 862635 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :That'd be a counter example?
< 1356876556 996931 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :!bfjoust anticipation2 http://sprunge.us/NAHZ
< 1356876560 616193 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :let's hope it fits within the size limit
< 1356876567 671943 :EgoBot!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​Score for ais523_anticipation2: 0.0
< 1356876571 180784 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope :(
< 1356876580 770268 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: what /is/ the size limit for egojoust, anyway?
< 1356876587 456449 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it'd be way shorter if I had an if statement, but I don't :(
< 1356876595 284113 :AnotherTest!~AnotherTe@94-224-28-191.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why is there a size limit?
< 1356876603 41284 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh: "parse error: maximum [] nesting depth exceeded"
< 1356876614 244039 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :didn't hit size limit, hit something else
< 1356876629 866617 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman: that's just my example
< 1356876631 392989 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :but with numbers
< 1356876634 811511 :AnotherTest!~AnotherTe@94-224-28-191.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it seems like there is a nesting depth limit
< 1356876641 679011 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: That limit's 256.
< 1356876648 50382 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: hmm
< 1356876652 51468 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I only go /slightly/ over 256
< 1356876660 491796 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there any particular reason why the limit's there?
< 1356876701 729493 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm.
< 1356876707 677541 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's very unfortunate :(
< 1356876710 288338 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I don't recall. Possibly not anything that would count. Fixed-size arrays for matching things in the parser.
< 1356876728 959920 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it's annoying to have a really good program and having to butcher it to fit it on the hill
< 1356876785 856116 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I could fix that right now, but it would probably take time (and a Gregor) to get it into the thing.
< 1356876810 802518 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, ten of the [] aren't used
< 1356876826 474116 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :!bfjoust anticipation2 http://sprunge.us/FjPS
< 1356876831 595600 :EgoBot!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​Score for ais523_anticipation2: 56.5
< 1356876870 725616 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and second place
< 1356876887 322213 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :now I just have to come up with more good programs that beat space_hotel, to push it into first ;)
< 1356876973 434218 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :!bfjoust this_sort_of_thing_is_done_so_often_it_doesnt_do_so_well_nowadays <
< 1356876975 928666 :EgoBot!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​Score for ais523_this_sort_of_thing_is_done_so_often_it_doesnt_do_so_well_nowadays: 0.0
< 1356877107 648032 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not edging above space_hotel on the leaderboard is annoying
< 1356877113 528516 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sprunge.us/TMGZ well that's not good.
< 1356877121 750345 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it might've been because of your <.
< 1356877140 587002 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shall I put that program back?
< 1356877153 567464 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I'll just fix whatever it broke.
< 1356877157 626913 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :!bfjoust this_sort_of_thing_is_done_so_often_it_doesnt_do_so_well_nowadays >>>>(+)*20(<(+)*90)*4(>)*8(>[(+)*20[-]])*21
< 1356877160 105955 :EgoBot!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​Score for ais523_this_sort_of_thing_is_done_so_often_it_doesnt_do_so_well_nowadays: 23.2
< 1356877163 29799 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, that works too.
< 1356877168 474269 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not a very good program and I was just using it as an example
< 1356877205 321046 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm pretty pleased with anticipation2
< 1356877214 652776 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I'd love to get the chance to explain it to quintopia or someone
< 1356877222 109363 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm… I'll put the program that generates it on the wiki
< 1356877279 48018 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :then start explaining
< 1356877301 39847 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :"And the explanation had better be good."
< 1356877313 22366 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Ais523/anticipation2.pl
< 1356877325 445993 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, basically, it's an intelligent defence program
< 1356877357 628005 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it starts with a complex decoy setup
< 1356877363 440753 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :to make sure it gets to its tripwires before the opponent does
< 1356877370 810472 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for short tapes, there's a couple of reverse tripwires
< 1356877392 975442 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if the opponent gets to them before decoy setup is complete, it changes to shudderlock's strategy
< 1356877405 530620 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and just tries to lock+clear; it works against quite a few programs on short tapes
< 1356877457 489224 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :more usually, what it's trying to do is to set up a vibration on its flag
< 1356877469 346045 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that the flag is 0 at the exact moment the opponent tests it for the first time
< 1356877502 378253 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the way it measures is to rely on the fact that the vast majority of programs do either + or - on the cycle immediately after their [ to check if the cell is 0
< 1356877513 948837 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and do their [ to check if the cell is 0 before adjusting it
< 1356877521 977029 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it uses two tripwires, one with value 1, one with value -1
< 1356877534 938454 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and measures how long they take to become 0, compared to when the previous cell was zeroed for two cycles
< 1356877557 192984 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :thus, it's #1 way to win is tricking the opponent off the end of the tape
< 1356877566 762441 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has a few fallback winning methods too
< 1356877573 840192 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :first, some opponents check for vibrations, and move into a clear loop if they do
< 1356877610 646 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :however, hardly any programs use an /offset/ clear in this situation, so I can lock them using a lock algorithm that works on any integer cycle length, but relies on knowing when the opponent's clear loop sets the value to 0
< 1356877632 601694 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :second, if it can't measure the opponent's timing, it falls back to anticipation
< 1356877661 655178 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and third, if the game is still going after the opponent is meant to have fallen off the tape, it falls back to shudderlock (especially because it'll have a more accurate idea of when to start the lock than shudderlock normally has)
< 1356877674 267664 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so yeah, that's about it
< 1356877708 672854 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Updated http://zem.fi/egostats/ with anticipation2, then.
< 1356877754 206596 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric ::)
< 1356877759 633623 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :i havent looked at it but it sounds like it will be gigs big
< 1356877762 749600 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P
< 1356877798 718774 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :only 100k or so
< 1356877809 735652 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :read the program that generates it if you want something readable / with comments
< 1356877818 317416 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I deleted all the comments from the submitted version to help get it under the size limit
< 1356877885 701995 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: does your egostats program fetch the whole hill at the click of a button?
< 1356877911 194157 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: I can fetch the whole hill with one command
< 1356877925 24370 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in esoteric/brainfuck/bfjoust/in_egobot, type hg pull && hg up
< 1356877939 782016 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's what I do, too.
< 1356877957 789317 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Then it's crank_hill.sh, parse_results.py, update_stats.py and rsync ...)
< 1356878048 643339 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think anticipation2 may be the first successful program that intentionally sets its flag to zero, and knows it's intentionally setting its flag to zero when it does so
< 1356878065 896909 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, it's the first successful cycle-counting defence program since defend9
< 1356878092 731341 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I basically just decided that, in this era of outcompeting decoy setups, simply ignoring the whole issue by using defence was the best option
< 1356878106 214435 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: i just meant did you automate the entire update process
< 1356878106 725193 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the main things it loses to, incidentally, are reverse offset clears, and sometimes timer clears too
< 1356878157 726614 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it's quasiautomated. A total of five commands I copypaste from a commands.txt file.
< 1356878161 879384 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: don't the shuddery things do that too?
< 1356878170 193945 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: yeah, but they've never been successful
< 1356878176 333275 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :when vibration ended up halfway up the hill
< 1356878179 152612 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I decided to make a /good/ one
< 1356878186 694458 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it seemed like a viable strategy
< 1356878207 882672 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and unlike vibration, anticipation2 is actually capable of winning against things that the strategy doesn't work perfectly against
< 1356878243 563148 :Taneb!~nathan@host-2-97-153-98.as13285.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1356878258 948844 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :i find it interesting that despite their vast methodical differences, space hotel and anticipation2 win more on the same tape lengths and polarities as each other than any other programs
< 1356878290 452283 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: can't you make commands.txt be commands.sh
< 1356878333 344698 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I could, it's just that things have (or at least had when it was written) a habit of breaking, it's nice for it to be slightly more granular.
< 1356878362 249411 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then can't you have one of the bots here call it whenever a new program is submitted? :P
< 1356878398 881260 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: I think it's just because space_hotel and anticipation2 win a lot full stop
< 1356878474 396646 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: this one is particularly revealing http://zem.fi/egostats/plot_tapeabs.png
< 1356878487 675574 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, I like that one
< 1356878498 766101 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :my favourite bit of that is how low anticipation2's flag is
< 1356878504 174147 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, how high its opponent's flags are
< 1356878510 180862 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :its own flag is low because it sets it low intentionally
< 1356878539 792323 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :its enemies' are high because if it loses, it typically hasn't even started to attack the enemy flag yet, and if it wins, half the time it /still/ hasn't started to attack the enemy flag yet
< 1356878573 998960 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: another interesting plot might be to show where the player's and enemy's tape heads were when the duels ended
< 1356878580 415736 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as a heat map
< 1356878633 155656 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for rush versus rush, it'd show how quickly players outrushed their opponent
< 1356878639 127279 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it'd also indicate how often programs fell off the end
< 1356878690 76230 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :The cranking also produces a heatmap (well, the numbers for one) on where the tape heads spent time during the whole duel, which I think I'm not using for any plots.
< 1356878714 632141 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin JOIN :#esoteric
< 1356878729 752948 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, that'd be interesting too
< 1356878806 821756 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :So.
< 1356878820 32076 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :As for auto-updating, theoretically, sure. But it takes quite a while to run, maybe five-ten minutes or so, I don't think I want it running all the time. (And I don't have all the Python bits it depends on anywhere else than this local workstation.)
< 1356878821 481370 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman: so what?
< 1356878823 795398 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :If a,b,c were restricted to one element it would trivially be true
< 1356878840 104240 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, something you were talking about before I joined
< 1356878852 416617 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Python+Numpy+Matplotlib manages to be spectacularly slow at times.)
< 1356878919 431818 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :If a,b,c were restricted to contain at least three elements...
< 1356879017 878360 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: how about it sets a midnight cronjob whenever the hill changes?
< 1356879029 440951 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :It'd still be false.
< 1356879051 55492 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe not.
< 1356879056 76829 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman: a={1,2,4}, b={1,3,5}, c={2,3,6} as per elliott's other counterexample. (a n b = {1}, a n c = {2}, b n c = {3}, a n b n c = {}.)
< 1356879079 687888 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: That could work. Admittedly it'd be nice for it to update oftener than once a year.
< 1356879088 355097 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: is it impossible to coax matplotlib to make those "stuff left on the tape" plots trapezodial (equal cell width)?
< 1356879143 76957 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: are you saying it'd be nice if people got interested in the joust more often than that?
< 1356879192 559541 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: They could just be nan-filled (i.e. white) for equal cell width. I think I was just thinking it's nice when the opponent's flag is always at the same spot. But it could do both variants, of course.
< 1356879223 554961 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: yeah its nicer to have the cells line up i think
< 1356879238 557227 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: And I think people get interested more often than that (maybe even twice a year?) but I don't happen to be always looking at the channel when it happens so the page doesn't get updated.
< 1356879243 123760 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :Would it matter how big the intersections are?
< 1356879283 820312 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: it's more than twice a year, but less than all the time
< 1356879312 357681 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman: You can always add more junk. (a={1,11,111,2,22,222}, b={1,11,111,3,33,333}, c={2,22,222,3,33,333}.)
< 1356879355 472046 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is mroman trying to prove
< 1356879402 626215 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some kind of a thing about the intersection of a, b and c given things about the intersections of (a and b), (a and c) and (b and c).
< 1356879414 87478 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :From what I can tell, it doesn't much matter what, as long as it's something.
< 1356879530 854439 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: Also, it seems that the plotting takes about two gigs of memory, which would make it a bit iffy to run on the VPS where the plots live. (free -m "total 247".)
< 1356879552 497659 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :ouch
< 1356879585 707922 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :nvm then!
< 1356880393 509304 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :[on Haskell] "Besides, we already have a language community for socially abrasive jerks. And the documentation for ruby is far better."
< 1356880401 899364 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I... think this person is living in opposite world.
< 1356880522 422619 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh. are you sure it wasn't [on esoteric languages]?
< 1356880553 642776 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe there's a separate community for socially abrasive jerks from the ruby community that have learned haskell
< 1356880558 361959 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman: do you know about Venn diagrams? if not, learn, it'll probably help you visualise things
< 1356880576 652636 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: unless Ruby's documentation massively improved in the last couple of years, the average esolang's is better
< 1356880611 711250 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :then if everyone who knows ruby goes to haskell through that group then "the haskell community" will seem just as bad
< 1356880616 502247 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh i just meant the jerks part :P
< 1356880669 84542 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I drew one.
< 1356880670 387084 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :but
< 1356880698 103331 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: can't object to that part
< 1356880701 399409 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: well… PHP's documentation is apparently very good, but it has to be, the language would be impossible to write otherwise
< 1356880703 895531 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://heimwerker-mathematik.aulbach-philosophy.de/_Schnittmenge_/echtes_Venn-Diagramm_-_B300.jpg
< 1356880707 291947 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :^- it looked like that
< 1356880726 349749 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: stop using proper ellipses, I'm watching you
< 1356880735 928949 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: why can't I?
< 1356880740 857877 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've got so used to proper ellipses
< 1356880743 259252 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't you mean "can´t"
< 1356880748 539957 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that it takes quite some mental effort to type triple-period
< 1356880761 70168 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: no, because that actually looks wrong
< 1356880761 642965 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :“can´t”
< 1356880765 635612 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :how would you draw three circles
< 1356880770 187176 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that abc is empty?
< 1356880773 342758 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: what do you use to type your ellipses?
< 1356880777 410841 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: compose key
< 1356880780 568284 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :but not ac,bc,ab
< 1356880785 75228 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman: they dont have to be circles
< 1356880792 227321 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :make them oblong things
< 1356880799 162469 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I type compose using caps lock, and caps lock using left shift + right shift
< 1356880799 496429 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh. right.
< 1356880822 378154 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :compose ..
< 1356880830 693410 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wish i had a compose key here
< 1356880832 248727 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: soon enough people will forget there's a codepoint called ELLIPSIS anyway, I guess
< 1356880855 953771 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I doubt it
< 1356880861 330321 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the sort of people who care about codepoints will know
< 1356880869 165838 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Scary………
< 1356880871 786459 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the sort of people who don't don't know in the first place so they can't forget
< 1356880916 650131 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've forgotten more than i've ever known!
< 1356880932 207847 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION still thinks smart quotes are doomed to obsolescence
< 1356881008 959475 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: But “why”…
< 1356881077 929099 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: i see your tricks
< 1356881080 432446 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you get no answer from me!!!
< 1356881185 549911 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can “type” smart quotes with altgr
< 1356881190 37965 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but am not sure how to do them with compose
< 1356881241 211895 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's ugly
< 1356881294 88773 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"< and ">
< 1356881420 296546 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I spent quite a while trying to compose-type an ë the other day; this keymap has a non-dead diaeresis key to make a ¨, but no way of composing ¨ and e seemed to work. (In the end it was "e, of course.)
< 1356881476 255779 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha
< 1356881492 92054 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :can’t is the correct smart apostrophe to use
< 1356881497 972180 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not can´t which obviously looks wrong
< 1356881508 343873 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i blame my font
< 1356881529 344483 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I should use the correct apostrophes in words when I remember
< 1356881747 13626 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And today I learn that "better-monads" is a damned lie.
< 1356881756 35664 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :...oh, sorry about language
< 1356881756 535434 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don‘t! 
< 1356881787 144844 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :im upset sgeo
< 1356882200 753497 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :((2^k)-1)((m^2)-1)n
< 1356882225 276965 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I was worried about upsetting ais523 
< 1356882239 245990 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: I don't mind if you apply that to inanimate objects
< 1356882241 942912 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :like lies
< 1356882253 877591 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ok
< 1356882315 125869 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :!bfjoust picks_up_breadcrumbs (>)*2(>>>>[(+[--[-[++++[(+)*100[+]]]]]>)*21])*6
< 1356882317 788288 :EgoBot!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​Score for ais523_picks_up_breadcrumbs: 9.6
< 1356882621 590781 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-24-128-161-213.hsd1.nh.comcast.net QUIT :Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com
< 1356882666 346758 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :!bfjoust picks_up_breadcrumbs (>)*2(>>>>>[((+[--[-[++++[(+)*10([-{(-)*90[-]>{}}])%20]]]]>)%21)*21])*6
< 1356882668 872179 :EgoBot!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​Score for ais523_picks_up_breadcrumbs: 10.3
< 1356882698 227018 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least it beats space_hotel :)
< 1356882711 956154 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :!bfjoust picks_up_breadcrumbs (>>>>>>[((+[--[-[++++[(+)*10([-{(-)*90[-]>{}}])%20]]]]>)%21)*21])*6
< 1356882714 454601 :EgoBot!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​Score for ais523_picks_up_breadcrumbs: 6.9
< 1356882719 334392 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :!bfjoust picks_up_breadcrumbs (>>>>[((+[--[-[++++[(+)*10([-{(-)*90[-]>{}}])%20]]]]>)%21)*21])*6
< 1356882721 981808 :EgoBot!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​Score for ais523_picks_up_breadcrumbs: 12.3
< 1356882740 119606 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :now it doesn't :(
< 1356882749 638377 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :!bfjoust picks_up_breadcrumbs (>>>>[((+[--[-[++++[(+)*10([-{(-)*90[-]>{}}])%20]]]]>)%21)*21])*8
< 1356882752 398821 :EgoBot!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​Score for ais523_picks_up_breadcrumbs: 13.1
< 1356882755 833154 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(obvious improvement)
< 1356882789 873518 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :!bfjoust picks_up_breadcrumbs (>>>>[((+[--[-[++++[(+)*10([-{(-)*90[-]>{}}])%20]]]]>)%21)*21])*7>(+)*100[+]>(+)*100[+]
< 1356882792 411830 :EgoBot!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​Score for ais523_picks_up_breadcrumbs: 13.3
< 1356882795 903487 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(another obvious improvement)
< 1356882856 825557 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :!bfjoust picks_up_breadcrumbs (>>>>[(>(+[--[-[++++[(+)*10([-{(-)*90[-]>{}}])%20]]]])%21)*21])*7>(+)*100[+]>(+)*100[+]
< 1356882859 492914 :EgoBot!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​Score for ais523_picks_up_breadcrumbs: 11.3
< 1356882870 448284 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :An obvious disprovement this time?-)
< 1356882878 772922 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :?-)
< 1356882878 957608 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe you meant: . ? @ bf do ft id pl rc v wn
< 1356882880 206441 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I just wanted to use the word "disprovement.")
< 1356882882 973184 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nah, that's the "let's just go even more insane" version
< 1356882885 667131 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :!bfjoust picks_up_breadcrumbs (>>>>[((+[--[-[++++[(+)*10([-{(-)*90[-]>{}}])%20]]]]>)%21)*21])*7>(+)*100[+]>(+)*100[+]
< 1356882888 355977 :EgoBot!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​Score for ais523_picks_up_breadcrumbs: 13.3
< 1356882891 572716 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Have you considered investing in: eyes?
< 1356882897 349021 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :might be nice if it printed points and placement in addition to score
< 1356882899 466349 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Huh?-)
< 1356882932 875474 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :the score changes every time, but it seems you always get the last place
< 1356882949 877111 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :!bfjoust picks_up_breadcrumbs >>>>(>>>[((+[--[-[++++[(+)*10([-{(-)*90[-]>{}}])%20]]]]>)%21)*21])*8>(+)*100[+]>(+)*100[+]
< 1356882952 550729 :EgoBot!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​Score for ais523_picks_up_breadcrumbs: 15.6
< 1356882953 277199 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Eyes.-)
< 1356882959 396705 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eyes!-)
< 1356882971 31492 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eyes:-)
< 1356882981 279962 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oy, yes.
< 1356882985 698113 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice to know that the hill isn't centralized enough for this strategy to actually work yet :)
< 1356883014 482342 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the strategy?
< 1356883043 900220 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :!bfjoust picks_up_breadcrumbs >>>>(>>>[((+[+[+[+[-----[-[-[-[-[(+)*10([-{(-)*90[-]>{}}])%20]]]]]]]]]>)%21)*21])*8>(+)*100[+]>(+)*100[+]
< 1356883046 655233 :EgoBot!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​Score for ais523_picks_up_breadcrumbs: 15.9
< 1356883056 651294 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: basically, moving n cells at a time towards the opponent
< 1356883074 87917 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the hope of hitting their back trail rather than their decoy setup
< 1356883082 708056 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and reaching their flag before they finish actually setting up decoys
< 1356883100 17763 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :everyone seems to have a back trail nowadays
< 1356883142 60055 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't expect the strategy to work
< 1356883144 7979 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it isn't ;)
< 1356883252 334870 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi oerjan
< 1356883346 18946 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :reading through plain.tex now, finally starting to get an idea of how the programming language TeX works
< 1356883545 793074 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin QUIT :Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.
< 1356884060 755281 :DHeadshot!~DH____@unaffiliated/dh----/x-6288474 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1356884080 774025 :DHeadshot!~DH____@unaffiliated/dh----/x-6288474 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1356884424 105104 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: have you noticed how the 11th cell seems to be somehow important when countering enemy pokes?
< 1356884439 525496 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :both space_hotel and stealth change strategy at the 11th cell
< 1356884633 128497 :etb!~flood0r2@173.255.247.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :!bfjoust court_jester (>)*9(+[-]>)*21
< 1356884636 478355 :EgoBot!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​Score for etb_court_jester: 13.7
< 1356884649 458008 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, I think I've determined the maximum number of possible decoys for a non-poke program
< 1356884651 120212 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's 6
< 1356884660 802068 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :possibly with an extra decoy at 9 in order to confuse pokes on long tapes
< 1356884676 348730 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :decoys on the seventh cell and later will almost always be avoided by the opponent
< 1356884682 510149 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or at least, cost more than they're worth
< 1356884776 549774 :etb!~flood0r2@173.255.247.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :!bfjoust rampart (+)*70>(+)*128(>)*8(+[-]>)*21
< 1356884779 630272 :EgoBot!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​Score for etb_rampart: 21.1
< 1356884838 660420 :etb!~flood0r2@173.255.247.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :woo
< 1356884849 436203 :etb!~flood0r2@173.255.247.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's my best yet :)
< 1356884888 213031 :nooodl_!~nooodl@91.177.25.167 QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds
< 1356884973 68871 :sebbu2!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-45-88.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric
< 1356884973 435009 :sebbu2!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-45-88.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Changing host
< 1356884973 620055 :sebbu2!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu JOIN :#esoteric
< 1356885174 755484 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1356885243 960345 :etb!~flood0r2@173.255.247.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :!bfjoust boobs (+)>(+)*128(>)*8(+[-]>)*21
< 1356885247 78982 :EgoBot!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​Score for etb_boobs: 13.9
< 1356885267 683316 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :etb: hmm, rampart is a very fast rush program
< 1356885317 611877 :etb!~flood0r2@173.255.247.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the defensive build-up at the beginning seems to help
< 1356885329 73580 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, "decoys"
< 1356885341 781405 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have two decoys there
< 1356885347 25814 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and most programs are helped by adding decoys
< 1356885418 893454 :etb!~flood0r2@173.255.247.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :mmm
< 1356885420 534694 :AnotherTest!~AnotherTe@94-224-28-191.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :Doesn't a cell with value 1 or -1 count as a decoy?
< 1356885464 352498 :AnotherTest!~AnotherTe@94-224-28-191.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :(note: my bf joust knowledge is minimal to none)
< 1356885482 937103 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnotherTest: yes, a small decoy
< 1356885484 889469 :etb!~flood0r2@173.255.247.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :!bfjoust rampart (+)*62>(+)*128(->)*8(+[-]>)*21
< 1356885487 962398 :EgoBot!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​Score for etb_rampart: 18.4
< 1356885491 106614 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :small decoys are 1 to 3, and maybe 4
< 1356885493 846050 :etb!~flood0r2@173.255.247.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yikes
< 1356885504 377825 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :medium decoys best function at 10 or so
< 1356885513 381785 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and large decoys often end up in the 70 to 85 range nowadays
< 1356885520 408457 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-45-88.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric
< 1356885523 92838 :AnotherTest!~AnotherTe@94-224-28-191.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Is it generally better to have large decoys?
< 1356885523 691594 :etb!~flood0r2@173.255.247.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :!bfjoust rampart (+)*70>(+)*128(->)*8(+[-]>)*21
< 1356885524 203885 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :How on earth is 3-SAT NP?
< 1356885527 879381 :EgoBot!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​Score for etb_rampart: 18.3
< 1356885536 879181 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(making them larger than 85 is mostly pointless, because a naive clear clears size 86 decoys just as fast as an order 86 offset clear does)
< 1356885540 803100 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-45-88.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Changing host
< 1356885540 987347 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu JOIN :#esoteric
< 1356885554 258972 :etb!~flood0r2@173.255.247.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :!bfjoust rampart (+)*70>(+)*128(>)*8(+[-]>)*21
< 1356885560 494592 :EgoBot!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​Score for etb_rampart: 20.0
< 1356885564 816521 :etb!~flood0r2@173.255.247.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :strange
< 1356885565 970290 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnotherTest: it depends on what you're doing; basically, a large decoy (that's larger than the opponent's clear offset) wastes 256 of their cycles on average, no matter how large it is
< 1356885583 440796 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so if you make it significantly larger than their clear offset, you're just wasting time setting it and not gaining any time back from the opponent clearing it more slowly
< 1356885617 516221 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it takes 512 - 2*height cycles if they're trying the wrong polarity to clear it quickly, and 2*height cycles if they're trying the correct polarity)
< 1356885652 63457 :AnotherTest!~AnotherTe@94-224-28-191.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh I see
< 1356885666 17920 :etb!~flood0r2@173.255.247.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :!bfjoust rampart (+)*70>(+)*128(>)*8([-]>)*21
< 1356885668 917545 :EgoBot!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​Score for etb_rampart: 22.3
< 1356885671 239559 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric ::)
< 1356885685 423683 :etb!~flood0r2@173.255.247.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i keep forgetting that [ on !*p jumps to ]
< 1356885696 654695 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnotherTest: a medium decoy, that's larger than any opponent wiggle but smaller than their offset, wastes a number of cycles equal to twice their offset, on average
< 1356885710 689130 :AnotherTest!~AnotherTe@94-224-28-191.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :wiggle?
< 1356885723 148907 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so because medium decoys are fast to set, against programs that use large offsets, they gain you a lot
< 1356885732 420205 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a wiggle clear is where you check a few small values as special cases
< 1356885735 550352 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :before going onto an offset clear
< 1356885739 479899 :AnotherTest!~AnotherTe@94-224-28-191.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh
< 1356885745 146040 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're good for dealing with small decoys, but have quadratic performance
< 1356885745 331748 :sebbu2!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds
< 1356885755 470649 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so people rarely wiggle above 3 or so
< 1356885789 616108 :etb!~flood0r2@173.255.247.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :are they likely at all to get trapped in a loop?
< 1356885799 839114 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :trapping programs in a loop is a legitimate strategy
< 1356885808 87288 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although one that hasn't done so well recently
< 1356885821 386849 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anticipation2, which I submitted today, has that as one of its methods of winning
< 1356885821 570806 :etb!~flood0r2@173.255.247.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm wondering how best to probe values without getting caught having to inc/decrement
< 1356885833 218463 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you have to increment/decrement a cell to probe it
< 1356885841 113219 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is part of the strategy
< 1356885885 169783 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can zero-test a cell without touching it
< 1356885894 732369 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but for other cells, you have to set them to zero to be able to determine their value
< 1356885933 803238 :etb!~flood0r2@173.255.247.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :!bfjoust manpart (+)*70>(+)*128(>)*8([(+)*3[-]]>)*21
< 1356885936 867164 :EgoBot!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​Score for etb_manpart: 17.8
< 1356885963 96956 :etb!~flood0r2@173.255.247.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah
< 1356885971 720961 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a "lock" program is one that tries to trap the opponent in a loop
< 1356885985 705410 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :say by turning the cell backwards at the same rate the opponent is trying to turn it forwards
< 1356885988 168597 :AnotherTest!~AnotherTe@94-224-28-191.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :So locks are not doing good?
< 1356885991 929377 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think defend7 is still on the hill, that's a pretty naive version
< 1356886003 626394 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnotherTest: recently, no, but I've been trying to revive them
< 1356886010 103336 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric
< 1356886018 541589 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the methods of countering them are just too good
< 1356886045 224095 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION guesses ais523 is talking about bfjoust defense
< 1356886045 408810 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
< 1356886049 182143 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@messages
< 1356886049 517263 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott said 2h 43m 6s ago: when you read the logs: i'm sorry it took me to so long to find that obvious counterexample. please don't swat me
< 1356886057 44609 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: yes
< 1356886062 300880 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(s)wat
< 1356886063 442139 :AnotherTest!~AnotherTe@94-224-28-191.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :How are these programs that constantly moves up and down the flags value doing?
< 1356886068 893064 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay elliott is back!
< 1356886070 391327 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnotherTest: ?
< 1356886081 664809 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, shudder/vibration programs?
< 1356886084 836420 :AnotherTest!~AnotherTe@94-224-28-191.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes those
< 1356886087 850739 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :vibration's like halfway up the leaderboard
< 1356886096 112706 :AnotherTest!~AnotherTe@94-224-28-191.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rather nice
< 1356886097 473378 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anticipation2 is technically a vibration program too, but it doesn't really act like one
< 1356886158 240408 :AnotherTest!~AnotherTe@94-224-28-191.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, that was the only BF Joust program I ever wrote (but not submitted because I realized it had already been done)
< 1356886173 289167 :AnotherTest!~AnotherTe@94-224-28-191.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought "oh, what if I do that"
< 1356886180 474830 :AnotherTest!~AnotherTe@94-224-28-191.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :But unfortunately, it had been done before
< 1356886188 127478 :etb!~flood0r2@173.255.247.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :!bfjoust badlock (+)*70>(+)*70(.)*128([+])*-1
< 1356886191 810144 :AnotherTest!~AnotherTe@94-224-28-191.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I assumed that there would be some defence against it
< 1356886193 257035 :EgoBot!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​Score for etb_badlock: 10.7
< 1356886243 657013 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is still wondering how much rock/paper/scissors effects there are in bfjoust - that is, how much what wins depends of what is already on the hill, and whether defense could prevail more in another environment.  this musing is somewhat hampered by my lack of any deep understanding of bfjoust.
< 1356886288 714276 :etb!~flood0r2@173.255.247.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :putting a bad program on the hill rearranges the leaderboard
< 1356886316 176555 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :or put another way, if what's currently on the hill counts as scissors and defense counts as paper, do rocks exist?
< 1356886346 783126 :WeThePeople!~WeThePeop@unaffiliated/wethepeople JOIN :#esoteric
< 1356886356 656963 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: actually sufficiently good defence beats what's currently on the hill, I think
< 1356886362 697619 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because the defence programs dropped off a while ago
< 1356886438 586320 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :<etb> putting a bad program on the hill rearranges the leaderboard <-- not if it gets dropped off, surely?
< 1356886455 414152 :etb!~flood0r2@173.255.247.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :once it gets dropped, it will rearrange again
< 1356886475 937064 :etb!~flood0r2@173.255.247.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :!bfjoust suicide <
< 1356886478 966396 :EgoBot!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​Score for etb_suicide: 0.0
< 1356886479 437724 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: bf joust is pretty much entirely a metagame of hill effects
< 1356886495 481666 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: did your(?) new scoring system ever get merged into EgoBot?
< 1356886520 113828 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523 said something implying it was, but i'm not sure if he is correct
< 1356886535 674114 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought it did
< 1356886541 946095 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not 100% sure either
< 1356886590 671814 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :etb: quintopia's system means scores are _only_ dependent on what is on the hill, not on previous scores.
< 1356886621 579496 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: the old one was like that too
< 1356886625 420845 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh.
< 1356886629 934900 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it jostles around because submitting a program changes what's on the hill
< 1356886665 164175 :etb!~flood0r2@173.255.247.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's what i'm saying :(
< 1356886675 734752 :etb!~flood0r2@173.255.247.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's kinda cool actually
< 1356886688 281849 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :well sure, but the new one would also do that as long as the new program doesn't get thrown off immediately
< 1356886784 55200 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :-->
< 1356887887 246145 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :neat.
< 1356887925 719582 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1356887998 745156 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm glad to see my programs finally move down the hill a bit
< 1356888301 322665 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1356888328 746120 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-45-88.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric
< 1356888329 72511 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-45-88.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Changing host
< 1356888329 257085 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu JOIN :#esoteric
< 1356888471 234424 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: it actually took me quite some effort trying to beat them :)
< 1356888482 990598 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's nice to have a variety of people's styles on the hill
< 1356888549 417348 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :now I need a DIMACS parser :(
< 1356888826 467183 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let's just say if I've had invented the DIMACS format I would have put a constraint on ordering
< 1356889076 453071 :calamari!~calamari@ip72-211-149-230.tc.ph.cox.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving
< 1356889198 188450 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :<etb> i'm picturing a system in which `using x = T<int>; using y = T<int>;` will be like `using x = T<int,0>; using y = T<int,1>;` so that the expression `x = y;` results in a compile-time error
< 1356889224 781753 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'd bet ada can do that, if i actually knew ada.
< 1356889249 249609 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, you can make incompatible named subtypes of int or w/e
< 1356889263 724506 :etb!~flood0r2@173.255.247.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that should be using X, using Y and X x; Y y; then x = y; (ie instance of x = instance of y results in an error)
< 1356889341 628543 :etb!~flood0r2@173.255.247.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just odd that C++ is supposed to be so type safe yet making safe types out of basic data types is not really possible
< 1356889348 540726 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :do ML modules work that way?
< 1356889356 110221 :etb!~flood0r2@173.255.247.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :stroustrup talks about this frequently
< 1356889359 512135 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*functors
< 1356889361 440993 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: "my" programs are generated from a bfjoust syntax and a couple of small inner loops grabbed from other programs on the hill
< 1356889378 87530 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah but everyone's programs feel different
< 1356889396 892502 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's quite easy to accidentally beat a program that does well against most people but badly against, say, GregorR or atehwa, for instance
< 1356889450 940782 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :um, did you intend "beat" there
< 1356889489 189655 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it could make sense either way, but...)
< 1356889536 598408 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :(http://pastebin.com/WhKYSt6u)
< 1356889560 232157 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: I intended "write"
< 1356889599 39122 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: oh, they're automatically generated?
< 1356889609 100564 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :um, did you intend "olsner" there
< 1356889613 220865 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes
< 1356889616 474462 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, I did intend "olsner"
< 1356889620 372356 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the second time
< 1356889626 77180 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but "oerjan" the first time
< 1356889627 762326 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :O KAY
< 1356889639 478388 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: evolved or just random?
< 1356889679 584905 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :found a crummy evolution framework and integrated it with the bfjoust stuff from codu.org
< 1356889738 949715 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :a bit hard to make any progress since almost every program is equally bad
< 1356890309 441563 :asiekierka!~asiekierk@fluttershy.pl QUIT :Excess Flood
< 1356890315 812284 :asiekierka!~asiekierk@fluttershy.pl JOIN :#esoteric
< 1356890551 364937 :monqy!~help@pool-98-108-214-230.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1356890575 851851 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :<elliott> I should grep the wiki logs to see if I can find out where the people behind it looked at the article on Malbolge, assuming they used the wiki
< 1356890674 94389 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually they probably copied from wikipedia.  the program they used isn't in the esolang article.  (you may note my recent wikipedia edit.)
< 1356890735 371418 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is, they basically took the one sample program on wikipedia, and copied it badly.
< 1356890739 815817 :DHeadshot!~DH____@unaffiliated/dh----/x-6288474 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1356890772 762885 :DHeadshot!~DH____@unaffiliated/dh----/x-6288474 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1356890790 859628 :nortti!~juhani@nano.smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :who?
< 1356890835 583823 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :04:02:27: <tbc> Any fans of the TV show Elementary here?
< 1356890835 806987 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :04:03:28: <NihilistDandy> Haven't watched it. I can't imagine it topping Sherlock.
< 1356890838 601220 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :04:05:26: <tbc> It's an interesting take on the Holmes character. I popped in here because Malbolge was part of the plot in the episode titled The Leviathan.
< 1356890995 301636 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :<elliott> I think the wikipedia article is a bit copied from ours <-- btw we never resolved the question on wikipedia of where the name "crazy operation" came from
< 1356891029 996751 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc it showed up on wikipedia first, with no reference.
< 1356891045 801007 :Taneb!~nathan@host-2-97-153-98.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Didn't wikipedia give a French or German politician a new middle name, in a similar way?
< 1356891081 230982 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i vaguely recall that.
< 1356891112 583332 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :someone with an already pompous nobility name got a bit extra, iirc
< 1356891200 453267 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :<tbc> Grr. I already deleted the episode. I should have transcribed the frame where they showed  a fragment of a Malobolge program. It was a romping story. <-- someone already did so in the wp talk page, which is how i discovered it was a near-copy of Hello, World!
< 1356891234 678627 :nortti!~juhani@nano.smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does it do?
< 1356891257 888908 :Taneb!~nathan@host-2-97-153-98.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I've got Elementary recorded
< 1356891266 992951 :Taneb!~nathan@host-2-97-153-98.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll make a note to watch that episode
< 1356891298 564193 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw the same guy requested someone to upload a picture of that frame, but i was worried about copyright
< 1356891334 810969 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :if any of you are braver/less principled/knows this is fair use, see the talk page
< 1356891677 780821 :nooodl_!~nooodl@91.177.25.167 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1356891706 108334 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :<Bike> i'm not sure how anyone could reliably distinguish malbolge from line noise (not that line noise is really produced anymore) <-- that's not actually so hard in principle, because Malbolge allows only 8 character in each particular program position (although which depends on the position)
< 1356892129 746352 :AnotherTest!~AnotherTe@94-224-28-191.access.telenet.be QUIT :Quit: Leaving.
< 1356892530 827607 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, it's like trying to distinguish a ttyrec from line noise
< 1356892555 711640 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in practice it's easy because line noise tends to not have weakly increasing timestamps
< 1356893036 198002 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-4d0b66f6.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i must revise what i said about template templates metaprogramming and c#.. it is not easier to implement those. it is just impossible
< 1356893148 730812 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-4d0b66f6.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i hope you'll accept my apologies and revise the excommunication
< 1356893159 602782 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :excommunication?
< 1356893165 856828 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-4d0b66f6.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION kisses the popes ring
< 1356893187 84415 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-4d0b66f6.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :bike: just kiddin
< 1356893242 647666 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-4d0b66f6.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :if a man admits his failure he must promptly be forgiven
< 1356893460 961165 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm.
< 1356893514 354762 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :so far so good.
< 1356893909 941762 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@tell elliott It's OK, but as penance you will have to read up on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_algebra
< 1356893910 163256 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider it noted.
< 1356894209 691176 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman: you can read it too btw
< 1356894381 77208 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have reminded me of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQqZKd_72C0 (nsfw?)
< 1356894393 796415 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :a trailer for a film formerly titled "Kiss the Ring" and now titled "Gone With The Pope"
< 1356894395 166512 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: mroman: and then http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2-satisfiability
< 1356894426 610656 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, that's darn long
< 1356894630 819437 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-4d0b66f6.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: well thx.. haven't seen that one yet
< 1356894638 8168 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :the connection i wanted to point out is probably http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2-satisfiability#The_set_of_all_solutions
< 1356894884 558162 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :or to put it explicitly: a family of variable assignments of some set of variables X can be described by pairwise restrictions on the variables precisely when the family is closed under taking the median operation on any 3 assignments
< 1356894945 739291 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*boolean variables X
< 1356894971 204092 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION sadly realizes no one will understand this anyway
< 1356895111 573631 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman: oh but here's a cool related boolean algebra theorem which is what sent me from your discussion to thinking about this: (a \/ b) /\ (a \/ c) /\ (b \/ c) = (a /\ b) \/ (a /\ c) \/ (b /\ c).  i.e. the median operation in boolean algebra is _self-dual_.
< 1356895657 907662 :carado!~user4539@2a01:e35:8b61:e430:6ef0:49ff:fe73:1fd0 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1356896265 82798 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ord ’
< 1356896265 835895 :fungot!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :226 128 153 
< 1356896315 818610 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t '’'
< 1356896316 15442 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :fd:9: commitBuffer: invalid argument (invalid character)
< 1356896347 573023 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@let test = '’'
< 1356896350 75303 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : Defined.
< 1356896353 303730 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :> test
< 1356896355 176860 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :  '\8217'
< 1356896370 166923 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION does a little victory dance
< 1356896378 757096 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t test
< 1356896380 12334 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Char
< 1356896532 806351 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bike: lambdabot's > breaks horribly on unicode I/O, but @let doesn't
< 1356896556 134194 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know.  but i don't want to think about why.
< 1356896573 808302 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think i know why, and it's fairly logical
< 1356896620 79161 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : @let just appends its line to a module file, which is then checked with ghc directly, and ghc is utf-8 clean
< 1356896663 366690 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :but > and :t pass an expression to mueval, which has some charset problem
< 1356896683 15935 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :...actually :t may have a different problem than >
< 1356896736 196593 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe i shouldn't think about why either
< 1356896799 637098 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :See.
< 1356897484 800772 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :<mroman> How on earth is 3-SAT NP?
< 1356897508 500271 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :by encoding SAT into it?
< 1356897529 762667 :epicmonkey!~epicmonke@188.134.41.173 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1356897543 774133 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION now wonders if mroman was looking at 2-SAT already
< 1356897653 985840 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically with 3-SAT you can encode that 1 variable is an arbitrary boolean function of two others.
< 1356897706 598993 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then you just build any other circuit up from that
< 1356898003 76268 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(a \/ ~c) /\ (b \/ ~c) /\ (~a \/ ~b \/ c) encodes c == a /\ b
< 1356898300 557907 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :> 86*3
< 1356898302 126927 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :  258
< 1356898326 293800 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :helloerjan
< 1356898334 368064 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Am I hallucinating currently?
< 1356898337 677755 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes.
< 1356898358 248509 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :that computer is really a grape.
< 1356898359 938605 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's just what hallucinoerjan would say!
< 1356898380 409195 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :thus proving you're hallucinating!
< 1356898390 834012 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But hallucinoerjan would probably lie to me.
< 1356898407 241274 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you know what "spineless" in "spineless tagless g-machine" means?
< 1356898433 135133 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :not really.
< 1356898451 739312 :Fiora!~Fiora@ec2-50-17-93-47.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am a figment of your imagination sch
< 1356898454 735984 :Fiora!~Fiora@ec2-50-17-93-47.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf
< 1356898473 4344 :Fiora!~Fiora@ec2-50-17-93-47.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION hovers on the edge of your vision making weird faces
< 1356898478 793572 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also don’t know what “tagless” in “spineless tagless g-machine” means.
< 1356898490 422426 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :In addition to that, i don’t know what “g-machine” in “spineless tagless g-machine” means.
< 1356898500 894722 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think the g is for graph, maybe.
< 1356898506 214155 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's what I think too.
< 1356898511 269894 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I’ve been meaning to read the paper, but haven’t got around to that.
< 1356898523 690925 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ion: The STG machine is neither spineless nor tagless, I'm told.
< 1356898538 444081 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :In that case, that is an excellent name for it.
< 1356898540 302721 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :By which I mean the thing GHC uses, not the thing in the paper.
< 1356898547 926703 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have first-hand evidence that it's not tagless.
< 1356898642 371591 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know what spineless means so I don't know about that.
> 1356898758 762592 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1356898760 501612 :glogbot!codu@codu.org JOIN :#esoteric
< 1356898761 912596 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie JOIN :#esoteric
< 1356898762 83355 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch JOIN :#esoteric
> 1356898762 892744 JOIN :#esoteric
> 1356898763 409193 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1356898771 846212 :Gregor!codu@codu.org JOIN :#esoteric
< 1356898777 853534 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se JOIN :#esoteric
< 1356898802 853257 :Taneb!~nathan@host-2-97-153-98.as13285.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1356899000 760453 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com JOIN :#esoteric
< 1356899277 282584 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: are you spineless
< 1356899277 752578 :fungot!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: by the time i saw no trace of
< 1356899530 760392 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot
< 1356899531 441760 :fungot!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: published june 1922 in home brew vol. 1, no. 4, p. fnord. prop... fnord...
< 1356899632 774221 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: it is tagless in the original meaning of "tag"
< 1356899650 783144 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which meaning is that?
< 1356899698 464578 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the one where e.g. pointers all end in 00 and primitive ints end in 01
< 1356899719 673204 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the garbage collector needs this information to do its job correctly
< 1356899748 252502 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :one of the innovations of GHC was that you already know whether each word is a heap pointer or a primitive thingy, without inspecting the word
< 1356899816 87467 :Fiora!~Fiora@ec2-50-17-93-47.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :how did it do that?
< 1356900069 575542 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :«Objects in the heap, both unevaluated suspensions and head normal forms, have a uniform representation with a code pointer in their first field. Many implementations examine tag fields on heap objects to decide how to treat them. With our representation we never do this; instead, a jump is made to the code pointed to by the object. This is why we call the machine "tagless"»
< 1356900111 60022 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose you could read that either way.
< 1356900122 334813 :Fiora!~Fiora@ec2-50-17-93-47.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder how painful that is to the branch predictor
< 1356900129 842876 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Terribly painful.
< 1356900131 636748 :Fiora!~Fiora@ec2-50-17-93-47.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :indirect jumps everywhere
< 1356900133 543987 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's why they don't do it anymore.
< 1356900136 503352 :Fiora!~Fiora@ec2-50-17-93-47.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :.... XD
< 1356900144 23216 :Fiora!~Fiora@ec2-50-17-93-47.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do they do instead?
< 1356900152 39848 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is one of the places where a tracing JIT can really help, though.
< 1356900167 861053 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :They have pointed tagging now.
< 1356900173 498146 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :pointer
< 1356900187 223383 :Fiora!~Fiora@ec2-50-17-93-47.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :pointer tagging?
< 1356900195 929125 :Fiora!~Fiora@ec2-50-17-93-47.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :storing the tag in the low bits of the pointer, then masking it off?
< 1356900198 613809 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The code is still there and you can still always jump to it.
< 1356900202 316621 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yep.
< 1356900221 787840 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :So you can check whether a thunk is already evaluated and if so skip the indirect jump.
< 1356900238 571525 :Fiora!~Fiora@ec2-50-17-93-47.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess the old tagless stuff reminds me of vtables
< 1356900260 519070 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :vtables are another place where a JIT can help. :-)
< 1356900272 263302 :Fiora!~Fiora@ec2-50-17-93-47.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :does java do anything special for vtable stuff?
< 1356900279 46348 :Fiora!~Fiora@ec2-50-17-93-47.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :or C# I guess
< 1356900289 683523 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :edwardk worked on an x86->x86 tracing JIT to optimize indirect jumps and that sort of thing.
< 1356900323 247 :Fiora!~Fiora@ec2-50-17-93-47.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :does that work better than branch prediction?  since, I mean, modern chips do track indirect jumps
< 1356900335 395482 :Fiora!~Fiora@ec2-50-17-93-47.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it could reduce the number to reduce the load on the predictor unit
< 1356900389 984764 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, once you're doing optimizations at runtime there can also be all sorts of other things that you can do.
< 1356900397 355414 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Inlining and what not.
< 1356900457 720299 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1356900475 489497 :Fiora!~Fiora@ec2-50-17-93-47.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't inlining a vtable reference the same thing as a template basically?
< 1356900483 259901 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I seem to have unexpectedly ended up with a Raspberry Pi and no idea what to do with it.
< 1356900483 432220 :Fiora!~Fiora@ec2-50-17-93-47.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :like you're templating that function based on the type of an object
< 1356900483 862315 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
< 1356900493 634133 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I understand that just replacing the indirect jump with a direct jump in an inner loop can help quite a bit.
< 1356900524 442147 :Fiora!~Fiora@ec2-50-17-93-47.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, but don't you have to check each time to see if the direct jump is still right?
< 1356900531 609171 :Fiora!~Fiora@ec2-50-17-93-47.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :since the type of the object could be different
< 1356900535 564545 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :help what do i do
< 1356900544 649148 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can do it once outside of the loop, presumably.
< 1356900582 144847 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, depending on whether you expect the address to change.
< 1356900603 506138 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :In most contexts, like vtables, it probably won't.
< 1356900874 389040 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway I don't know that much about this.
< 1356900916 183135 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: post-bop avantcore.
< 1356900933 804306 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you do that with a raspberry pi
< 1356900947 784117 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :only one way to find out!
< 1356900952 339981 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi Bike
< 1356900953 950772 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hike
< 1356900971 383296 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :hachaf.
< 1356900982 812410 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :hichaf?  sounds like a warning for militarypilots
< 1356900984 343412 :Fiora!~Fiora@ec2-50-17-93-47.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can do that optimization on compile time too right?  loop hoisting
< 1356901045 459726 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, you don't know what the value will be at compile time.
< 1356901057 535894 :Fiora!~Fiora@ec2-50-17-93-47.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if it doesn't change in the loop, you could at least load it once at the start, right?
< 1356901084 20769 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure, but it's still an indirect jump.
< 1356901126 295234 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: dunno if you're here or care but yesterday got me thinking, so now i'm wondering what a clean way to (userly) define special forms not based on environment manipulation (e.g. compiler interaction things like load-time-value and no i don't expect you to have heard of that).  and whipping some shit up as usual
< 1356901250 878258 :Taneb!~nathan@host-2-97-153-98.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving
< 1356901319 782184 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i really wish my monitor had an hdmi port right now
< 1356901349 147625 :Fiora!~Fiora@ec2-50-17-93-47.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't an indirect jump cheap if it goes to the same place every time?
< 1356901688 785493 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :HDMI and DVI are partially compatible
< 1356901745 90151 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, yes but unless I can jam one into the other that's not much help right now.
< 1356901780 808555 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok
< 1356902751 144963 :monqy!~help@pool-98-108-214-230.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net QUIT :Quit: hello
< 1356904135 109035 :Nisstyre-laptop!~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre JOIN :#esoteric
< 1356905584 877240 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't you wish you had a DVI-HDMI cable instead? (It's what I have.)
< 1356905617 67603 :asiekierka!~asiekierk@fluttershy.pl QUIT :Excess Flood
< 1356905618 417182 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, plx send to me
< 1356905623 763431 :asiekierka!~asiekierk@fluttershy.pl JOIN :#esoteric
< 1356905651 319310 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :But then I wouldn't see what I typed. :/
< 1356905683 594953 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :why won't you help this adorable little raspberry pi
< 1356905697 228216 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like being able to see my screen more.
< 1356905705 10963 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Plus I couldn't connect my own Pi without the cable.
< 1356905718 313461 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I don't know what to do with it.)
< 1356905743 171361 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :make it into some sort of hat?
< 1356905941 71618 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :A smart hat.
< 1356905951 438087 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Forget smartphones, smarthats are where it's at.
< 1356905996 566694 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :capable of choosing your hat on the fly
< 1356906040 554766 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe some kind of an integrated Pi-controlled 3D printer/hat hybrid.
< 1356906048 880069 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just wait three-six hours and you've got a new hat.
< 1356906057 367580 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Careful with the heating elements, though.
< 1356906091 308213 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was thinking more of some strategically-arranged retractible brims but that works too
< 1356906165 135338 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Many people have made media-centery things with the Pi, which to me sounds kind of weird.
< 1356906184 91999 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm sure it could be a passable one, but still.
< 1356906260 716372 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, my scp file transfer is running at 15 MiB/s. How is that even possible? 
< 1356906280 246625 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, right, there's a network cable there.
< 1356907658 801443 :xDEADCA7!~ared@host26-185-dynamic.4-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it JOIN :#esoteric
< 1356907673 841839 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Huh, it must be the future now. I just EMULATED a WII on a PC.
< 1356907700 888030 :Fiora!~Fiora@ec2-50-17-93-47.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dolphin is pretty amazing
< 1356907712 219890 :Fiora!~Fiora@ec2-50-17-93-47.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :It has a really good JIT
< 1356907725 702909 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It wasn't that long ago when just emulating a Playstation was kind of impressive, and it was really recently I discovered you can do PS2 these days.
< 1356907776 64935 :Fiora!~Fiora@ec2-50-17-93-47.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, PS2 works great with a fast clocked CPU
< 1356907783 503989 :Fiora!~Fiora@ec2-50-17-93-47.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the PS2 chip is way harder to emulate, clock for clock, than the Wii though
< 1356907792 507184 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fiora: you're a JIT fan, right?
< 1356907803 216256 :Fiora!~Fiora@ec2-50-17-93-47.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ummmm kinda but I mostly know emulation stuff
< 1356907811 679150 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you just seem to go on about them a lot :)
< 1356907821 581843 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca JOIN :#esoteric
< 1356907821 891080 :Fiora!~Fiora@ec2-50-17-93-47.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I likecompilers and jits and emulators and things
< 1356907840 841719 :Fiora!~Fiora@ec2-50-17-93-47.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and things like, learning how the ps2 cpu works and its instructions and how to emulate them and stuff
< 1356907856 79080 :Fiora!~Fiora@ec2-50-17-93-47.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's amazing how it can take like 15-20 instructions to emulate a single floating point add in the VU
< 1356907887 756769 :Fiora!~Fiora@ec2-50-17-93-47.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there's two VUs each doing 128-bit vector ops, then the main MIPS core which also has a custom 128-bit integer simd instruction set
< 1356907892 748028 :Fiora!~Fiora@ec2-50-17-93-47.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's not IEEE 
< 1356907909 646642 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :"What are Fioras made of? Compilers and jits and emulators and things." I think there was a rhyme that went like that.
< 1356907914 152872 :Fiora!~Fiora@ec2-50-17-93-47.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD
< 1356907927 124743 :Fiora!~Fiora@ec2-50-17-93-47.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm just kind of insane and I read the pcsx2 source code for fun okay ~_~
< 1356907932 212169 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least the original playstation is famous for sucking at arithmetic
< 1356907937 573552 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, and reading source for fun is fine :)
< 1356907956 378781 :Fiora!~Fiora@ec2-50-17-93-47.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the vector unit on the ps2 is lots of fun
< 1356907967 717099 :Fiora!~Fiora@ec2-50-17-93-47.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :instead of IEEE it has max/min float values, so you have to clamp 
< 1356907972 22978 :Fiora!~Fiora@ec2-50-17-93-47.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :so no infinities or nans
< 1356907990 56679 :Fiora!~Fiora@ec2-50-17-93-47.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :each instruction has a built-in shuffle on all of the inputs (you can take the inputs in any order)
< 1356907991 682731 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's common in graphics programming
< 1356907993 567370 :Fiora!~Fiora@ec2-50-17-93-47.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the output
< 1356907999 165419 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :NaNs have a tendency to spread and take over your whole systme
< 1356908001 948 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*system
< 1356908005 528636 :Fiora!~Fiora@ec2-50-17-93-47.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :each instruction can choose to operate on only some of the input values
< 1356908013 304284 :Fiora!~Fiora@ec2-50-17-93-47.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :each instruction sets a combination of flags
< 1356908023 228603 :Fiora!~Fiora@ec2-50-17-93-47.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a sign flag and overflow flag (I think?) for each of the 4 floats
< 1356908043 637770 :Fiora!~Fiora@ec2-50-17-93-47.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then there's "sticky flags" which can get set on, but not off, so it lets you see if any of the previous operations overflowed or such
< 1356908050 416508 :Fiora!~Fiora@ec2-50-17-93-47.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that means you can't easily optimize out flag calculations that aren't used
< 1356908077 492536 :Fiora!~Fiora@ec2-50-17-93-47.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :so each VU instruction turns into a gigantic mess of pshufd and pmovmskb and minps and maxps for clamping
< 1356908135 746039 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :<Fiora> I'm just kind of insane and I read the pcsx2 source code for fun okay ~_~ <-- AHEM
< 1356908139 19174 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? mad
< 1356908141 493745 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​"But I don't want to go among mad people," Alice remarked.  "Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad." "How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.  "You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."
< 1356908150 182190 :Fiora!~Fiora@ec2-50-17-93-47.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it also has some really weird pipeline structure you have to emulate, because VU0 is locked to the main CPU, and if the CPU accesses it, it has to get the right results depending on which operations have retired
< 1356908171 650293 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm trying to remember the last time i met someone who explicitly denied being insane, instead of jokingly saying they were, and failing
< 1356908194 96552 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fiora: that ("gigantic mess") makes it sound like it would make ps2 emulation pretty slow?
< 1356908222 572218 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nintendo DS has a "math accelerator", I think that's a funny bit. It can do 64x64->64 division and a 64->32 square-root; you write your results into a memory-mapped IO register, and after a while you can read the result out of another.
< 1356908238 475886 :Fiora!~Fiora@ec2-50-17-93-47.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bike: exactly, yeah
< 1356908239 687762 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Integers, that is.)
< 1356908247 527807 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bike: only (some) insane people deny being insane.
< 1356908253 87009 :Fiora!~Fiora@ec2-50-17-93-47.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's two reasons why PS2 emulation is so slow
< 1356908256 29560 :Fiora!~Fiora@ec2-50-17-93-47.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :1) emulating the VUs is really hard
< 1356908259 253757 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fiora: so, how do they deal with it?  (or do they just say "get a faster computer")
< 1356908264 884695 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fortunately, computers are pretty fast.
< 1356908277 420909 :Fiora!~Fiora@ec2-50-17-93-47.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :they optimize out a lot of the flag calculations, use an optimizing compiler for VU microprograms, and use core i7s
< 1356908279 359667 :xDEADCA7!~ared@host26-185-dynamic.4-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it QUIT :Quit: Sto andando via
< 1356908280 957357 :Fiora!~Fiora@ec2-50-17-93-47.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD
< 1356908284 895630 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :as a netbook user i am constantly confronted with the fact that they are not, fizzie :/
< 1356908287 899442 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fiora: welp.
< 1356908296 854100 :Fiora!~Fiora@ec2-50-17-93-47.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the other part of things is the ps2 graphics chip
< 1356908309 176647 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't run JPC-RR at a reasonable speed on my netbook, especially on NetHack
< 1356908326 438185 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's implementing a 386-era PC
< 1356908326 609657 :Fiora!~Fiora@ec2-50-17-93-47.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the ps2 graphics chip is really overly simple and very inflexible
< 1356908330 830267 :Fiora!~Fiora@ec2-50-17-93-47.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but   it runs insanely fast
< 1356908331 579628 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe pentium 1
< 1356908335 925982 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :also i'm reminded of bsnes
< 1356908337 868515 :Fiora!~Fiora@ec2-50-17-93-47.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it can fill the entire screen 40 times per frame
< 1356908342 432271 :Fiora!~Fiora@ec2-50-17-93-47.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :at 60fps
< 1356908344 488048 :Fiora!~Fiora@ec2-50-17-93-47.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :2400fps fill rate
< 1356908362 982626 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :putting in one extension for correctness with original hardware cut the speed of the one game that used it in tenths or so
< 1356908366 797752 :Fiora!~Fiora@ec2-50-17-93-47.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :so to do game graphics, people would do multiple passes of simple code instead of fewer passes of complex code
< 1356908375 458797 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :My most efficient computer is a laptop, and it can run PCSX2 and (as I learned today) Dolphin/Wii reasonably well. (Granted, it's only borderline a "laptop", and certainly not a netbook.)
< 1356908376 604535 :Fiora!~Fiora@ec2-50-17-93-47.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but modern GPUs are all about complex, flexible code running slower
< 1356908384 913817 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is borderline a netbook
< 1356908387 255985 :Fiora!~Fiora@ec2-50-17-93-47.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :not simple code running insanely fast
< 1356908395 741977 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: "subnotebook" clearly
< 1356908400 162070 :Fiora!~Fiora@ec2-50-17-93-47.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :so emulating the graphics unit is sorta tricky too
< 1356908401 143772 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"supernetbook"
< 1356908412 449987 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Which border, though? 
< 1356908416 231753 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think Toshiba wanted to make a netbook originally
< 1356908419 783328 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then they wanted to put Windows on it
< 1356908428 80000 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's ended up with 3 GB of RAM
< 1356908429 366628 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, the upper border.
< 1356908433 193482 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah
< 1356908440 403738 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although, that's pretty low specs for today
< 1356908515 375305 :Fiora!~Fiora@ec2-50-17-93-47.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I emulated persona 4 pretty okay with a 1.6ghz i7
< 1356908567 745162 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, the "laptop" weighs some absurd amount, eats watts for breakfast, and has a Sandy Bridge i7-2720QM (4x 2.2 GHz) + a GTX 460M on it. Granted, both have "M" in the name so they're not quite high-end-desktop parts (not even when it was made), but it's still fast-ish as far as these things go.
< 1356908699 124991 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(It's kind of a compromise solution, I wanted something that'd run current (when-bought) games, yet would be something I could when necessary carry along, after the PPC iBook died on me. In retrospect, it might have made more sense to do both a desktop upgrade as well as buy something more portable, but meh, it works.)
< 1356908743 252752 :Fiora!~Fiora@ec2-50-17-93-47.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh, mine's like 3.2kg ish and has a 2.4ghz ivy bridge (runs at 3.4ghz in practice...) and a 7970M
< 1356908776 619899 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, this is from the Sandy age, but the weight is around the same.
< 1356908786 153012 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION 1 GHz, hooray
< 1356908790 469020 :Fiora!~Fiora@ec2-50-17-93-47.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :this was about the lightest I was able to find
< 1356908793 308088 :Fiora!~Fiora@ec2-50-17-93-47.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :most of them were like 4-5kg
< 1356908800 264355 :Fiora!~Fiora@ec2-50-17-93-47.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I basically bought it just for the weight
< 1356908855 668786 :nortti!~juhani@nano.smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bike: on what?
< 1356908864 228185 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :my netbook
< 1356908864 398595 :nortti!~juhani@nano.smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION 700MHz, yay
< 1356908880 536512 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh let's make it a contest
< 1356908897 39265 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I just execute the instructions on paper, I can get 5 Hz if I'm on enough stims"
< 1356908916 756799 :nortti!~juhani@nano.smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol
< 1356908925 527693 :Fiora!~Fiora@ec2-50-17-93-47.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD
< 1356908937 866922 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i do all my computing by post
< 1356908968 186057 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :
< 1356908979 546274 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :phantom gets roughly 1 mHz if he uses enough throughput
< 1356909014 352597 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi Bike
< 1356909016 686318 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't compute.  i just guess, and then destroy all the universes where i guessed wrong.
< 1356909032 195816 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi shachaf
< 1356909048 305129 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think my VDSL2 router box has its MIPS core clocked at 400 MHz.
< 1356909058 785681 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: i feel like i should complain about many-worlds but it turns out i'm not actually scott aaronson
< 1356909081 47828 :Fiora!~Fiora@ec2-50-17-93-47.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but hwo do you check your answer
< 1356909083 765454 :Fiora!~Fiora@ec2-50-17-93-47.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't that involve....
< 1356909085 408078 :Fiora!~Fiora@ec2-50-17-93-47.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :computation? :3
< 1356909104 199229 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fiora: So you've reduced it to a problem oerjan just solved.
< 1356909107 52403 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan applies the process recursively until there is no oerjan to guess incorrectly, fiora.
< 1356909115 678256 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fiora: well no one has ever told me i was wrong in any universe that survived
< 1356909125 616007 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ut-oh.
< 1356909140 168977 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: you're wrong
< 1356909193 705200 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, no one _believable_, that is.
< 1356909346 98475 :Fiora!~Fiora@ec2-50-17-93-47.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're actually dead
< 1356909403 434027 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Have you ever thought of yourself as actually dead, lying in a box with a lid on it?
< 1356909411 916042 :TeruFSX!~TeruFSX@174-20-41-54.mpls.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1356909442 10749 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :not the box part, no
< 1356909448 666154 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Trivia fact of the day: Sonic Generations runs on the "Hedgehog Engine".
< 1356909459 725216 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's quite uncreative
< 1356909519 244377 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(For factual accuracy: only the PC/PS3/X360 versions of Generations; but also the PS3/X360 versions of Unleashed too.)
< 1356909531 743573 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know, the name always kind of makes me smile.
< 1356909536 623671 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's the Hedgehog Engine.
< 1356909544 613646 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :IIRC, it has a hedgehog logo.
< 1356909620 653453 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://dl.dropbox.com/u/113389132/Misc/20121230-Hedgehogengine.png  oh yes.
< 1356909677 528846 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, that is cute.
< 1356909725 511127 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :They've added the "TM" symbol, I wonder if they've actually... oh yes, http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=doc&state=4002:njtr9n.2.1
< 1356909758 783710 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like the "we're not registering the word "ENGINE" exclusively" disclaimer.
< 1356909760 671714 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thanks, guys.
< 1356909842 67901 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow next year they're starting to remove the landline phone system in norway
< 1356909917 652144 :nortti!~juhani@nano.smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm
< 1356910453 708937 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.ficora.fi/attachments/englantiav/68tsy4qIW/Telecommunication_Markets_in_the_Nordic_Countries_2011.pdf  Finland is leading the drop in the "Fixed telephony subscriptions per capita" graph (page 12), but also completely nowhere in the VoIP graph (page 13).
< 1356910532 174231 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :finland has resorted by cybernetic pigeons for long-distance telephony
< 1356910605 465008 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't quite realize how much mobile broadband subscriptions/use there is in here.
< 1356910627 987322 :Frooxius!~Frooxius@cust-101.ktknet.cz QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1356910631 137241 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://translate.google.no/translate?hl=no&sl=no&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dagbladet.no%2F2012%2F12%2F30%2Fnyheter%2Fsamferdsel%2Fpolitikk%2Finnenriks%2Ftelefon%2F25021505%2F
< 1356910645 967761 :Frooxius!~Frooxius@cust-101.ktknet.cz JOIN :#esoteric
< 1356910669 531207 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :"In the period 2013 to 2017, Telenor shall lay down fixed phone."
< 1356910674 586005 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Google Translate makes it sound so dramatic.
< 1356910682 128851 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't say
< 1356910735 476241 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Incidentally, our university just (a month or so ago) got rid of all their billion DECT desk phones, and just issued regular GSM phones to all personnel.
< 1356910738 714911 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even I've got one.
< 1356910762 727322 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though nobody has called it yet. :/
< 1356911065 642147 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently google translate turns "Hordaland" into "Oslo" in the first paragraph :(
< 1356911081 728996 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :"like they're both countries, okay?"
< 1356911085 618298 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*counties
< 1356911702 910117 :monqy!~help@pool-98-108-214-230.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric