←2012-12-30 2012-12-31 2013-01-01→ ↑2012 ↑all
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00:04:32 <Sgeo> elliott, monqy Fiora Phantom_Hoover Whatever-Taneb-is-being-today
00:04:33 <Sgeo> UPDATE
00:04:52 <Phantom_Hoover> i do not want to think about my backlog any more
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00:17:25 <GreyKnight> zzo38: how did the candles thing work?
00:18:40 <Sgeo> "According to some mathematical theorem, 7 is a large enough n to get a perfect shuffle."
00:18:54 <Sgeo> " Shuffling simulates an actual shuffle: the list is split into halves which are merged back together by repeatedly pulling the top card off one of the halves, randomly selecting one half or the other"
00:20:08 <zzo38> GreyKnight: Candles? Do you mean in the Dungeons&Dragons game? I am almost finished recording it and then you can read how it work.
00:20:20 <GreyKnight> yes and okay
00:20:48 <GreyKnight> You said "It is a little bit like a game of chess." which interested me
00:21:34 <zzo38> What I mean is that a few of the kind of tactics involved in chess have similar things in this game.
00:23:32 <GreyKnight> Like when you castle your level 20 Fighter with a stone golem? :o)
00:24:43 <zzo38> OK, but that isn't precisely what I was thinking of; read my recordings to see more specifically what it is in this case.
00:25:15 <GreyKnight> :o) means joke :-P
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00:25:43 <zzo38> OK :o)
00:26:42 <GreyKnight> where are your recordings?
00:27:12 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.org/dnd/recording/level20.tex
00:28:31 <GreyKnight> <ais523> I think anticipation2 may be the first successful program that intentionally sets its flag to zero, and knows it's intentionally setting its flag to zero when it does so
00:28:32 <GreyKnight> I think that is how most people use the word "intentionally" :-P
00:28:37 <GreyKnight> zzo38: not on gopher??
00:29:43 <oerjan> this is a different meaning that ais523 intentionally stumbled upon
00:30:13 <zzo38> Currently it is not on gopher but I may fix that.
00:30:31 <zzo38> However, that file alone is not sufficient because if you want to print it you need dungeonsrecording.tex as well.
00:31:06 <GreyKnight> I am just reading the text anyway
00:31:20 <GreyKnight> Is there a Tristan to go with Isolde? :o)
00:31:36 <zzo38> GreyKnight: No.
00:32:48 <GreyKnight> hopping forward is an interesting tactic, although risky if the enemy manages to identify what power you just used
00:33:00 <GreyKnight> (now they have a minute to prepare :-o)
00:33:13 <zzo38> Yes I know, it can be risky
00:34:08 <GreyKnight> how did you anticipate where the candles were to go? Was there a diagram drawn on the floor?
00:34:36 <zzo38> No; I did not manage to anticipate it. That was Isolde, not me (Kjugobe), anyways.
00:35:43 * oerjan wonders how zzo38 pronounces the "Kj"
00:36:04 <zzo38> oerjan: By itself it isn't, but with "Kju" it can be pronounced.
00:36:26 <GreyKnight> oh, well, how did Isolde anticipate it then :-P
00:36:47 <zzo38> GreyKnight: Badly.
00:36:48 <GreyKnight> oerjan: first name "Iuckqlwviv"
00:36:57 <oerjan> oh right
00:37:04 <GreyKnight> I think you need mouth-tentacles to pronounce it correctly
00:37:18 <oerjan> or to be granny weatherwax
00:37:19 <GreyKnight> (he is an illithid)
00:37:31 <zzo38> Yes, maybe it is difficult to pronounce without
00:38:49 <nortti> GreyKnight: pronounced witjout mouth-tentacles
00:38:50 <oerjan> it's just that kjugobe is _very_ simply to pronounce for a norwegian with norwegian spelling rules :)
00:39:02 <oerjan> *simple
00:39:10 <nortti> also for finnish
00:39:45 <GreyKnight> Iuckqlwviv might be easy to pronounce if you are from Hungary :o)
00:39:48 <zzo38> oerjan: O, I don't know Norwegian and Finnish spelling rules! Maybe, if you are Norwegian you can pronounce it that way. Otherwise, I will pronounce my way.
00:40:11 <oerjan> no, not hungary. czechia or georgia maybe.
00:40:32 <nortti> finnish spelling rule is pretty much: pronounce it as it was IPA
00:42:23 <nortti> only exception I can think of is ŋ being written as ng
00:43:05 <oerjan> nortti: nk maybe?
00:43:22 <oerjan> (those tend to go together in many languages)
00:44:06 <nortti> oh
00:44:27 <nortti> short ŋ was nk ans long ŋ was ng
00:44:38 <oerjan> wat
00:44:54 <nortti> what?
00:45:13 <oerjan> nk = ŋk is what i meant, but maybe finnish doesn't do that
00:45:30 <zzo38> Now I have it on gopher named dnd/level20.tex
00:45:30 <oerjan> also i don't think ä and ö are the ipa forms :)
00:46:00 <nortti> oh. forgot that
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00:47:52 <nortti> ä ia æ and ö is ə, I think
00:47:57 <oerjan> and if you look closely there are probably other details. e.g. is a pronounced as ipa a or ipa ɑ
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00:49:09 <nortti> I think a
00:49:49 <oerjan> wikipedia says ɑ
00:50:31 <nortti> how is a pronoumced then?
00:52:35 <oerjan> further back. i believe the swedish short a is like that
00:52:38 <zzo38> I have typed the last few paragraphs now; where we are in the card playing room.
00:52:52 <zzo38> Actually I missed one.
00:53:24 <oerjan> wait
00:53:37 <zzo38> OK, now I am done.
00:53:47 <oerjan> it's not further back, it's _middle_
00:54:07 <oerjan> and very low
00:55:43 <nortti> ah. I never thought about those two as different letters (?)
00:56:05 <oerjan> phonemes
00:56:46 <nortti> finnish spelling is derived from swediah, german and latin
00:56:54 <nortti> *swedish
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00:58:23 <oerjan> "The phonemic contrast between front /a/ and back /ɑ/ is only partially maintained in Standard French, leading some researchers to reject the idea of two distinct phonemes.[11] However, the distinction is still clearly maintained in other dialects, such as that of Quebec."
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00:59:23 <oerjan> i guess those two vowels tend to get merged and split a lot as languages evolve
00:59:58 <oerjan> norwegian has only ɑ
01:04:21 <zzo38> How I mean tactics of similar to chess game, is such as: confusion, repairing weaknesses, zwischenzug, counter, conservation of resources, and so on.
01:04:31 <olsner> apparently swedish a is either IPA ä or ɑ
01:05:19 <GreyKnight> what exactly happened at the end there with the candles anyway
01:05:42 <GreyKnight> I thought it might be /pyrotechnics/ at first but that only creates light or smoke, not actual fire
01:05:54 <GreyKnight> maybe something similar or a modification of it
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01:06:37 <zzo38> GreyKnight: I did finish typing what happened so far, by now; you can reread it. Yes I know it is not pyrotechnics; I thought of the same thing as you, there. I am unsure exactly what it is, but I know it is much bigger fire; and I do have some plans to defend against it.
01:06:39 <oerjan> GreyKnight: you dare to tell on 31 dec that pyrotechnics doesn't create fire? :P
01:06:58 <oerjan> i'm sure there will be plenty of firefighters to disagree with you
01:07:23 <zzo38> oerjan: They mean the spell called "pyrotechnics", which creates light, not fire.
01:08:26 <zzo38> Yes I think that is what they want you to think (whether or not it is correct).
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01:12:31 <zzo38> My defense is partly inspired by Soltis's book "The Art of Defense in Chess".
01:12:35 <quintopia> mroman: i'm not sure if anyone answered you, but 3-SAT is NP because any logic circuit can be evaluated in time linear in the number of logic operations.
01:12:56 <quintopia> oerjan: Gregor has yet to install it. elliott objects to its installation.
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01:14:44 <oerjan> wta.
01:14:44 <coppro> quintopia: install what?
01:15:38 <oerjan> i don't recall elliott being against the principle of the new scoring...
01:15:49 <GreyKnight> Phantom_Hoover: so what is the plan for your Raspberry Pi?
01:15:53 <Phantom_Hoover> uh
01:16:00 <Phantom_Hoover> torrenting things basically
01:16:22 <GreyKnight> I was hoping for something marginally more esoteric. Are you using a befunge torrent client at least??
01:16:35 <quintopia> oerjan: see the bfjoust talk page and the logs for the most recent day i posted to it
01:16:44 <Phantom_Hoover> no
01:16:58 <quintopia> (chan logs, not wiki history)
01:17:05 <Phantom_Hoover> perhaps an esolang based on torrenting?
01:18:06 <GreyKnight> some sort of distributed computation?
01:18:21 <coppro> elliott: man, when did you stop being really annoying
01:18:23 <quintopia> i had an esolang bunny attack me the other night
01:18:50 <quintopia> is there a language based on algebra? where the only command is "solve this equation"?
01:19:01 <coppro> fractran doesn't really count
01:19:18 <olsner> there is that thing with diophantine equations
01:19:19 <Bike> quintopia: chaitin wrote a lisp to diophantine equation compiler once, apparently.
01:19:34 <quintopia> Bike: sounds awesome
01:20:47 <Phantom_Hoover> hey guys does anyone know of turing-equivalent graph colouring problems?
01:21:35 <quintopia> graph-coloring doesnt seem turing-complete
01:21:46 <coppro> quintopia: why not?
01:21:48 <quintopia> unless you are talking infinite graphs?
01:21:54 <coppro> of course
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01:25:46 * GreyKnight shoots a firework at oerjan -----==>
01:26:43 <Phantom_Hoover> coppro, well the context was heraldry
01:26:53 <Phantom_Hoover> so infinite graphs would require... some thought
01:28:20 <GreyKnight> "It takes the compiler only a few minutes to convert the 300-line LISP interpreter into a 200-page 17,000-variable universal exponential Diophantine equation. The resulting equation is a little large"
01:28:52 <Bike> the maxwell's equations of programming :')
01:29:04 <GreyKnight> Chaitin's conception of "a little large" is similar to ais523's conception of "intentionally" :-)
01:30:12 <GreyKnight> this little adventure takes place in Algorithmic Information Theory BTW
01:30:27 <Bike> everything chaitin does takes place there
01:31:52 <GreyKnight> Chapter LXVII: Making Lunch
01:32:04 <Bike> chapter of what?
01:32:49 <GreyKnight> I was making a joke
01:33:39 <Bike> Jokes are hard.
01:37:54 <GreyKnight> I was just reading https://github.com/ginatrapani/todo.txt-cli/wiki/The-Todo.txt-Format from the logs earlier
01:38:22 <GreyKnight> "The beauty of todo.txt is that it’s completely unstructured [...] To get started, use special notation [...]"
01:38:59 <GreyKnight> The syntax rules are about three screenfuls long here
01:39:03 <Bike> so is that thing seriously just for todo lists?
01:39:22 <Bike> maybe i'm just not busy enough but i'd usually use just a list
01:39:43 <Bike> or org-mode if i was writing for a productivity blog, maybe
01:39:45 * GreyKnight files "completely unstructured" alongside "intentionally"
01:39:46 <GreyKnight> (and "a little large")
01:40:03 <GreyKnight> Bike: well there is some software that helps you organise the list
01:40:06 <GreyKnight> and this is the syntax for it
01:40:13 <GreyKnight> I'll stick with hiveminder I think
01:40:31 <GreyKnight> at least it is more honest :-3
01:40:50 <Bike> do you communicate with it via pheremones?
01:41:46 <GreyKnight> no but somebody should create a pheromone interface layer
01:42:54 <GreyKnight> "We use a lowercase x so that completed tasks sort to the bottom of the task list using standard sort tools." <-- erm x wasn't the last letter of the alphabet last time I checked
01:43:31 <zzo38> But maybe 'y' and 'z' and so on are not being used.
01:44:25 <Bike> GreyKnight: as gone through before, this is someone who thinks "plain text" is easy and universal.
01:44:56 <Bike> so, probably someone who's not even very good at English. and/or dumb.
01:45:01 <GreyKnight> zzo38: I may want to have a task such as "yell at elliott" or "zap oerjan"!
01:45:21 <coppro> or "zot zzo38"
01:45:25 <GreyKnight> Bike: "This format has been developed and refined over the course of 5 years by the Todo.txt community of users and developers."
01:45:39 <zzo38> Is it ASCII sorting order?
01:45:41 <GreyKnight> or "zzo38's birthday"
01:45:51 <Bike> GreyKnight: great, now i'm depressed
01:45:53 <zzo38> If that is it then you should use ~ if you want to put at the end.
01:46:20 <GreyKnight> zzo38: I guess it is? They don't say ¯\(°_o)/¯
01:46:27 <Bike> zzo38: sorting tools don't seem to be specified beyond "standard" (lol)
01:46:45 <Bike> zzo38: also, tasks can apparently be arbitrary text, so zapping zzos is quite allowed...
01:47:05 <Bike> (is that the correct plural of "zzo"? what is the significance of 38? so many questions)
01:47:13 <GreyKnight> Bike: I liked how they think txt files are OS agnostic too. As far as I know Notepad.exe STILL can't handle line endings other than CRLF.
01:48:00 <GreyKnight> zzos 1--37 were dismal failures. But the lessons learned from them led to the construction of the biggest and best yet
01:48:16 <Bike> GreyKnight: bush hid the facts
01:48:34 <GreyKnight> about zzo38?
01:48:53 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bush_hid_the_facts quite possibly
01:51:20 <GreyKnight> hah that's awesome
01:53:22 <GreyKnight> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/todotxt/message/3229 <-- CHOMP
01:53:55 <GreyKnight> thank goodness for plain text
01:55:01 <Bike> "Yes that solved the problem.... sort of"
01:55:09 <Bike> "The easy fix is to use wordpad instead of notepad." awesome.
01:56:16 <zzo38> The MS-DOS text editor, Visual Studio, and other programs, support LF line endings and CRLF line endings.
01:56:30 <zzo38> Although it doesn't work with Notepad.
01:57:20 <GreyKnight> Wordpad, the text editor for Real Men
01:58:40 <Bike> i kind of have to respect notepad's continuing lack of features, though. unless it can read mail since XP but I doubt it?
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02:02:15 <GreyKnight> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/todotxt/message/4611 <-- I have no idea what a MIT is or what's going wrong with that command
02:02:28 <GreyKnight> looks like sed vomited all over the terminal
02:03:52 <Bike> «can't read 11 s/{[0-9]\{4\}\.[0-9]\{2\}\.[0-9]\{2\}}/{2012.10.26}/: No such file or directory» wow, i almost want to know how you fuck up that bad
02:05:58 <Sgeo> I'm starting to think that Racket isn't as flexible as I'd like
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02:08:14 <kmc> Paint did get more feature-ful though
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02:09:15 <GreyKnight> "There’s no [...] tags or flags" There are both of those things :-I
02:09:31 <kmc> today i am learning how to make bastardized pirozhki out of biscuits in a can
02:15:01 <kmc> GreyKnight: yeah, i edited that article to tone down their paean to the mythical format of "plain text"
02:21:30 <kmc> what's with british people using 'stone' as a unit of weight
02:22:16 <GreyKnight> People use units of mass as units of weight all the time, this one is no different
02:22:28 <kmc> that's not what i object to
02:22:40 <kmc> it's just a weird unit that nobody else uses or even knows about
02:23:34 <kmc> perhaps the imprecision is a virtue though
02:24:04 <kmc> it's easy to obsess over weight fluctuations of 1 lb or 1 kg[f]
02:24:05 <GreyKnight> shrug, I consider the Imperial system a waste of my brain cells to remember anyway :-)
02:24:25 <kmc> in a way that is counterproductive
02:24:32 <GreyKnight> (it amuses me slightly that America is one of the great bastions of Imperial measure though, what with the whole Independence thing)
02:25:01 <kmc> except we don't use quite the same system, either
02:25:04 <olsner> iirc the american imperial units are all slightly different from the british ones
02:25:14 <kmc> a US fluid ounce is significantly different from a UK fluid ounce
02:25:15 <olsner> for Independence, presumably
02:25:18 <kmc> yes
02:26:12 <GreyKnight> olsner: that and the refusal to use SI is enough evidence to make me think they deliberately want to be incompatible :-)
02:27:37 <GreyKnight> I discovered recently that many Americans don't know what a fortnight is
02:28:07 <GreyKnight> I think we should revive the use of sennight just to mess with their heads B-)
02:28:46 <olsner> about that, it's really quite weird how everyone seems to agree on the seven-day week
02:29:42 <GreyKnight> it fits neatly into a lunation
02:29:48 <GreyKnight> (as much as anything else anyway)
02:32:41 <Phantom_Hoover> olsner, romans had an 8-day week
02:33:04 <kmc> the french revolutionary calendar had 10-day weeks!
02:33:06 <Phantom_Hoover> (although they thought it was 9-day because romans didn't understand counting)
02:33:14 <kmc> it also had Pantsless Days
02:33:59 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: Do you mean that the last day of one week was the same as the first day of the next week?
02:34:59 <Phantom_Hoover> yes
02:38:38 <kmc> Today is Prickle-Prickle, the 72nd day of The Aftermath in the YOLD 3178
02:39:39 <Phantom_Hoover> sounds like something out of dwarf fortress
02:41:17 <olsner> looks like a discordian date
02:41:41 <Bike> the aftermath is my favorite month.
02:44:10 <oerjan> secundo kalendas januarii
02:45:44 <oerjan> oh wait
02:45:51 <oerjan> *pridie kalendas januarii
02:46:41 <oerjan> (that's today btw)
02:49:03 <kmc> http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/onetesla/onetesla-a-diy-singing-tesla-coil
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02:49:14 <kmc> this was developed at the hackerspace two blocks from my house :)
02:49:45 <Phantom_Hoover> singing tesla coils are pretty old hat, i thought
02:49:48 <oerjan> http://www.roman-colosseum.info/roman-life/julian-calendar.htm (possibly beware of popups)
02:52:16 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: sure, many people have made them, but i don't know about an easy to assemble kit
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02:55:20 <kmc> this is neat because it's something that anybody can build with basic soldering skills in an afternoon
02:55:37 <kmc> and it seems to be reasonably and safely designed, with MIDI / computer connectivity
02:55:49 <kmc> no, it does not fundamentally advance humanity's understanding of the laws of physics
02:56:48 <kmc> the midi interfacing bit is not just optically isolated but actually lives in a separate box with a fiber optic cable to the HV board
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03:02:26 <kmc> $250 is steep though
03:02:31 <kmc> i might get one if the price goes down post-kickstarter
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04:07:15 <ion> It would be cool to have one, but yeah, that price is a bit high.
04:15:37 <zzo38> For purpose of making some computer game, I wanted to make the second C preprocessor. Instead of "CPP" it can be "CPQ" the second one, which run after the first C preprocessor. Which finds commands with $ first to do replacements, and then further reads it to remove duplicate definitions and so on.
04:15:58 <zzo38> I am not exactly sure what to start with.
04:16:13 <zzo38> But I do have some ideas about how to write such a program.
04:17:35 * Sgeo wonders if zzo38 would enjoy Racket
04:20:04 <zzo38> Racket?
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04:29:53 <zzo38> Is there a C parser code which I can change to what I need?
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04:43:49 <Sgeo> zzo38, Racket is a Scheme derivative that, among other things, lets you make new languages that smoothly interoperate with other Racket modules
04:44:16 <Sgeo> Redefining function application, defining a different reader, etc.
04:46:16 <zzo38> OK
04:47:43 <Sgeo> I'm currently reading a tutorial about implementing Brainfuck as a Racket language
04:50:01 <zzo38> Some examples of what I wish of a second C preprocessor (I have some ideas how to implement but not quite):
04:51:20 <zzo38> $macro(red,x,y) { int @z=(x); hello(z,y); } red(1,2) becomes int _newname0=(1); hello(_newname0,2);
04:51:42 <zzo38> int x=5; void xxx(int) {} int x=5; becomes int x=5; void xxx(int) {}
04:51:55 <zzo38> int x; void xxx(int) {} int x=5; becomes int x=5; void xxx(int) {}
04:52:31 <zzo38> int a[]={1,2,3,,,,}; becomes int a[]={1,2,3};
04:53:49 <zzo38> $pool(256); 'Apple'+'0'+'Car'+'Bat'+'Car' becomes "Apple","Bat","Car"; 256+'0'+258+257+258
04:56:52 <zzo38> void xxx(void) { $promote(-1) { int global1; } return; } becomes int global1; void xxx(void) { return; }
04:58:56 <zzo38> Furthermore there must be $template and $data commands
04:59:27 <zzo38> Is there anything like this which already exist?
05:22:39 <zzo38> One problem seem to be, that in C some commands you will have the } terminates it but in other cases it is not terminated unless a semicolon.
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05:26:58 <zzo38> Will it work for this kind of preprocessor to just require that they all end in a semicolon or separated by a semicolon (like Haskell does)?
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06:03:17 <zzo38> For example, is this valid? void xyz(int x, double***y) { putchar(x); *y=0; }; int uuu=9; (notice a extra semicolon)
06:06:21 <Jafet> No, it is not
06:06:58 <zzo38> Is it allowed in GNU?
06:10:22 <zzo38> Is there a way to work around?
06:10:29 <Jafet> Well, gcc doesn't care.
06:11:37 <zzo38> Do other compilers which support GNU extensions care?
06:12:07 <Jafet> They might, but I don't care about other compilers.
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06:13:40 <olsner> some compilers actually bother to warn about extraneous semicolons
06:18:07 <zzo38> I mean such as clang with GNU89 mode.
06:20:16 <zzo38> Which compilers make such warning and can it be suppressed partially?
07:10:44 <zzo38> What is the command in GCC to add an extra step after the preprocessor?
07:11:06 <zzo38> (For if the filename suffix is a certain suffix)
07:18:00 <coppro> XKCD is kinda okay today, but the alt text is wonderful
07:21:37 <kmc> http://goatkcd.com/1154/sfw [nsfw]
07:26:58 <coppro> http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1829
07:28:06 <Bike> i read a story about the search for the goatse guy once. i think his name might actually have been kirk? i forget.
07:29:16 <Jafet> To boldly go...
07:29:47 <Fiora> to boldly split infinitives where no one has split infinitives before
07:30:54 <kmc> yeah i read that article
07:32:33 <kmc> my friend is talking about how he put an Intel SSD in his original Xbox
07:32:55 <kmc> i think he should put on neon lights and a big spoiler
07:33:21 <coppro> Bike: it is, in fact
07:33:34 <coppro> Bike: coincidental, though
07:33:46 <shachaf> Fiora: What's the matter with split infinitives?
07:34:00 <Fiora> sorry, just an old joke <_<;
07:34:04 <Bike> coppro: or is it?? etc
07:34:07 <coppro> I always attempt to pointlessly split infinitives
07:34:14 <Bike> pff.
07:34:15 <shachaf> Fiora: or is it?? etc
07:34:22 <coppro> Bike: no, it is. The comic was posted before goatse's identity became well-known
07:34:30 <Bike> I know.
07:35:57 <shachaf> Bike: Did you work out the type derivatives thing?
07:36:44 <kmc> 4:20 split infinitives every day
07:37:09 <Bike> eh? no.
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08:37:38 <Sgeo> You know how I know that Clojure has utterly poisoned my brain?
08:37:51 <Bike> everyone keeps telling you so?
08:37:54 <Sgeo> I am impressed by the foo in (let foo () ...) being first-class
08:38:01 <Sgeo> Seriously impressed
08:38:03 <Sgeo> It's a bit nuts
08:38:10 <Bike> wha
08:38:11 <Sgeo> I should not be this impressed
08:38:47 <Bike> clojure doesn't lack recursive lexical functions, does it
08:39:05 <Sgeo> It lacks them being tail-recursive
08:39:18 <Bike> what's that got to do with first-class-ness?
08:39:47 <Sgeo> Well, it's also the fact that with that let it's sort of anonymous, don't need to letfn
08:39:50 <Sgeo> >.>
08:40:09 <Sgeo> Maybe I'm just slowly forgetting Clojure
08:40:11 <Bike> it's the exact opposite of anonymous, "foo" is right there! it is nonymous
08:41:31 <Sgeo> I tend to think of "anonymous" as "not exposing a name to the outside directly"
08:42:02 <monqy> hi
08:42:08 <monqy> whats up with this??
08:42:09 <Bike> "not pushy"
08:42:15 <Bike> indeed, what is up with this
08:47:28 <shachaf> hi monqy
08:47:31 <shachaf> good night
08:47:36 <monqy> good night shachaf
08:48:06 <zzo38> Do you know how in GCC to tell it to add an additional step after the preprocessor for files with a certain suffix, while otherwise treated them as a C source file? I looked at the document of spec strings but am not sure how to do it.
08:52:26 <Gregor> You'd have to just separate those steps.
08:52:41 <Gregor> gcc -E <input file> > foo.tmp; othertool foo.tmp > foo.i; gcc foo.i
08:53:08 <zzo38> There is not a way to specify it in the spec strings?
08:57:32 <Jafet> echo -e '#!/bin/sh\ncpp "$@" | foo' > /usr/local/bin/cpp
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08:59:05 <Sgeo> Awesome, I can in fact write macros that redefine #%app within their lexical scope
09:00:07 <Bike> perfectly safe
09:00:35 <Sgeo> http://pastie.org/5601436
09:00:42 <Sgeo> The result of that is "HONK"
09:01:13 <monqy> aight
09:03:22 <zzo38> Jafet: I don't think GCC will work like that though
09:04:08 <Jafet> No, because it's dumb and hardcodes the path to its favourite cpp
09:04:35 <Jafet> But you can force it to use another one
09:05:04 <Jafet> with stocks and a riding crop
09:05:30 <zzo38> I think CPP is built-in to GCC though.
09:06:07 <zzo38> Even though it can be told to run only the preprocessor, and there are spec strings to control them, I don't know how to make it run differently.
09:07:36 <Jafet> You can't tell it to run another cpp? Weak.
09:07:52 <zzo38> You can specify such that .ZZ are C++ source files or whatever, and check the prefix within a spec string, but I don't know how to make spec strings run additional programs.
09:08:55 <zzo38> It also says you can use pipes but it doesn't really explain how.
09:09:00 <kmc> zzo38: you should make a variant of the unix 'top' utility and name it 'zztop'
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09:16:52 <Taneb> Why the hell am I still subscribed to totheark on Youtube
09:17:00 <Taneb> I haven't watched Marble Hornets in months
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09:56:19 <AnotherTest> Hello
09:56:58 <coppro> hello
09:57:57 <coppro> which are our markov bots again?
09:59:24 <coppro> `help
09:59:26 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
09:59:31 <coppro> `ls bin
09:59:34 <HackEgo> ​? \ @ \ WELCOME \ addquote \ allquotes \ anonlog \ calc \ define \ delquote \ etymology \ forget \ fortune \ frink \ fuck \ google \ hatesgeo \ hi \ interp \ joustreport \ jousturl \ json \ karma \ karma- \ karma+ \ learn \ log \ logurl \ lua \ luac \ luarocks \ luarocks-admin \ macro \ maketext \ marco \ No \ pastaquote \ paste \
10:01:06 <coppro> `rm bin/hi
10:01:09 <HackEgo> No output.
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10:02:05 <coppro> `rm bin/fuck
10:02:08 <HackEgo> No output.
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10:04:04 <coppro> `quote
10:04:06 <HackEgo> 329) <zzo38> I figured out something about C program. If you use ? : a lot then you don't need as much parentheses but it makes it more difficult to understand.
10:05:33 <monqy> what were bin/hi and bin/fuck
10:05:48 <monqy> maybe they were worth keeping...
10:05:52 <coppro> no they weren't
10:06:05 <coppro> hi was "echo hi" and fuck was "printf '%s' '$1'
10:07:08 <monqy> oh
10:08:56 <coppro> `log
10:08:58 <HackEgo> 2003-07-27.txt:02:09:56: <Taaus> Gravy made out of people!
10:13:30 <coppro> fizzie: do you realize you've been here nearly 10 years?
10:35:46 <zzo38> I figured out how it might be done, by using the COLLECT_GCC and COLLECT_GCC_OPTIONS environment variables (which are not available inside of spec strings, but are available to the programs called by spec strings, and COLLECT_GCC_OPTIONS but not COLLECT_GCC needs to be processed by eval)
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11:17:32 <fizzie> coppro: Noooo... that can't be right.
11:17:43 <coppro> fizzie: check the logs
11:18:06 <fizzie> It must be some kind of a mistake. Maybe some of the years were skipped.
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12:14:47 <fizzie> (It's not even "nearly 10 years", it's over it already: "[2002-12-14 22:21:33] -!- fizzies [fizban@bistromath.gehennom.org] has joined #esoteric")
12:16:06 <Jafet> So, have you mastered the esoteric?
12:17:42 <fizzie> That's not quite my first join either, since it seems there was a "fizzie [fizban@colin.befunge.org]" on-channel at that time; it seems to be just when I got my new (well, then-new) IRC box up and running.
12:18:35 <fizzie> Yeah, Mon Dec 09 07:24:10 2002 would have been the first.
12:19:22 <fizzie> And there were already six other dudes/duders/dudettes present.
12:20:45 <fizzie> Oh, one's a bot.
12:21:25 <Jafet> A dudit
12:21:41 <fizzie> (navigator, dbc, lament, deltab, exarkun; and very soon after, calamari.)
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15:34:14 <elliott> 19:44:23: <oerjan> but > and :t pass an expression to mueval, which has some charset problem
15:34:14 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
15:34:17 <elliott> oerjan: incorrect
15:34:21 <elliott> oerjan: :t actually uses ghci directly
15:34:43 <oerjan> i think i corrected myself
15:35:16 <fizzie> It was TOO LATE FOR THAT.
15:35:35 <oerjan> in any case, it's clearly a heap of charset messes
15:35:54 <shachaf> oerjan: The problem is not with mueval, it's with lambdabot.
15:36:22 <shachaf> lambdabot is using the same mueval as before, but the version of GHC it's using has been upgraded.
15:36:35 <ion> % mueval -e 'let ä = 42 in ä'
15:36:37 <ion> <hint>:1:5: parse error on input `�'
15:36:47 <oerjan> ah right, the new charset selection system...
15:36:54 <ion> % ghc -e 'let ä = 42 in ä'
15:36:57 <ion> 42
15:37:04 <shachaf> Hmm.
15:37:10 <shachaf> Perhaps I'm wrong, then.
15:37:14 <shachaf> Why did it use to work with mueval?
15:37:20 <ion> dunno
15:38:16 <oerjan> ion: what are the relevant environment variables as you start mueval?
15:38:31 <ion> dunno
15:38:43 <oerjan> ...
15:39:12 <oerjan> i'm asking you to check, btw
15:39:24 <ion> What are the relevante environment variables?
15:39:26 <oerjan> also, for their values, not their identities
15:39:27 <ion> +typos
15:39:59 <oerjan> LC_* and LANG stuff, i assume
15:40:06 <fizzie> LANG, LC_CTYPE and LC_ALL are reasonably relevant for character sets.
15:42:14 <ion> % env -i LANG=en_US.UTF-8 HOME="$HOME" PATH="$PATH" mueval -e 'let ä = 42 in ä'; env -i LANG=en_US.UTF-8 HOME="$HOME" PATH="$PATH" ghc -ignore-dot-ghci -e 'let ä = 42 in ä'
15:42:17 <ion> <hint>:1:5: parse error on input `�'
15:42:18 <ion> 42
15:42:50 <fizzie> LANG does not override what LC_FOO are set to, FWIW.
15:43:02 <ion> env -i
15:43:59 <oerjan> ghc uses utf-8 for files regardless, this is documented
15:44:31 <oerjan> *for haskell files
15:44:43 <ion> % env -i HOME="$HOME" PATH="$PATH" mueval -e 'let ä = 42 in ä'; env -i HOME="$HOME" PATH="$PATH" ghc -ignore-dot-ghci -e 'let ä = 42 in ä'
15:44:47 <ion> mueval-core: Enum.toEnum{Word8}: tag (56515) is outside of bounds (0,255)
15:44:50 <ion> <interactive>:1:5: lexical error at character '\56515'
15:45:30 <oerjan> > 'ä'
15:45:30 <lambdabot> mueval: recoverEncode: invalid argument (invalid character)
15:45:45 <fizzie> Onneksi ääkköset eivät ole enää ongelma.
15:49:49 <olsner> Myöntävä vastaus.
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15:51:12 <ion> Ääliö, älä läiky.
15:52:07 <fizzie> Älä rääkkää kääkkää.
15:52:15 <oerjan> Kenelle soitat ääliö
15:52:31 <fizzie> Kenelle kellot soivat.
15:53:02 <ion> Kokko kokosi kokon Kokkoon. Koko kokonko kokosi? Koko kokon.
15:53:28 <fizzie> Vesihiisi sihisi hississä.
15:54:17 <fizzie> Onkiva rovasti on kiva rovasti sillä onkiva rovasti onki varovasti. (This loses something in the textual representation.)
15:55:10 <olsner> Onkiva dean dean is nice it has a nice fishing rod gently Dean
15:55:35 <fizzie> Weird, I got: "Onkiva dean dean is nice because onkiva dean angling gently."
15:55:36 <oerjan> poor google translate is very confused
15:56:47 <olsner> it suggested replacing an onkiva with on kiva, so I did that
15:57:02 <fizzie> Also Wiktionary says "rovasti" is "canon, provost" which I find more likely. It's a church title, and "provost" probably has the same roots.
15:57:36 <olsner> provost is "test cheese" in Swedish
15:57:46 <olsner> or perhaps sample cheese
15:58:13 <fizzie> "From Medieval Latin prōpositus, from Latin praepositus (“placed in front”)."
15:59:44 <fizzie> "Bonfire bonfire gathered the pile. Size kokonko your size? Size bonfire." I think you're right, it must be all confuzzled.
15:59:48 <fizzie> fungot: Can you do better?
15:59:50 <fungot> fizzie: was mixed with something very like fear seized the whole assemblage on the vaguely hexagonal pillar beyond the first gate, had not troubled me; and nigger-man was admitted as much for help as for companionship. we decided to find a bell or peal of bells in the tower whose narrow, louvre-boarded lancet windows his fnord had studied so often. here he knew strange things had happened.
16:00:00 <fizzie> Apparently not.
16:01:03 <olsner> "Bonfire bonfire gathered the pile." could be part of a nursery rhyme about burning witches
16:03:46 <olsner> fungot: what do you think about witch hunts?
16:03:48 <fungot> olsner: as i thought of the lands and persons i had left seemed involved in a passage from any given dimensional plane to the next opening and began to climb the worn stone steps which must originally have emerged to earth somewhat southwest of the present day, was fnord though no one seemed to him to continue, since conditions so singular are fnord but the rationalism of my mind and made me wish fervently that i might wake up
16:04:25 <fizzie> Interestingly Google has interpreted "kokosi" correctly in the first sentence (as "gathered", the third-person singular imperfect tense of verb koota 'to gather'), but not in the second (where it has opted for "your size", from the noun koko 'size' with the second-person singular possessive suffix -si).
16:05:06 * oerjan bans fungot for saying the n word
16:05:07 <fungot> oerjan: perception envisaged. edmund carter had dared to see. i moved toward the window and let himself down to the express office i was informed that no shipment for me had arrived. my next act, performed amidst a growing alarm, was to convey press reports to the arkham for fnord and forgiveness. zann said that he had
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16:05:37 <olsner> the n word? fnord?
16:05:55 <fizzie> I think oerjan meant "narrow".
16:06:03 <fizzie> Whoops, I said it too.
16:06:18 <oerjan> no, it was a different word with the same syllable structure
16:07:40 <fizzie> Somehow I was reminded of http://basicinstructions.net/storage/2012-03-08-mobyrerun.gif
16:07:45 <elliott> ^style
16:07:45 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft* nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
16:07:56 <elliott> lovecraft. "of course"
16:08:44 <fizzie> ^style europarl
16:08:45 <fungot> Selected style: europarl (European Parliament speeches during approx. 1996-2006)
16:08:46 <fizzie> fungot: Any policy resolutions for the upcoming new year?
16:08:49 <fungot> fizzie: mr president, i should like to mention a couple of, in order not to affect the fishing industry after the year 2000 on whether a " brave new world, preferring instead to turn the new rules, either. since irradiation is practised in the member states have expressed. we are committed to promoting the dialogue. amendment to the corbett report the second report on fraud prevention for 1996, and this without specifying what
16:09:32 <olsner> fungot should learn to match quotes and parens
16:10:07 <fizzie> Oh ho, you hit The Bug again.
16:10:09 <fizzie> (The Perl version knows how to do that.)
16:10:24 <olsner> perl version!?
16:10:36 <fizzie> There's a Perl version of the babbling that I use for testing.
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16:11:02 <fizzie> Also for fun, since it can take an initial context. So you can use it as a "continue the sentence" thing.
16:11:16 <olsner> ah, you should port that to fungot
16:11:20 <fungot> olsner: the commission is nonetheless proposing to extend the period mentioned. i can assure you, however, as stated in the letter does not, in my opinion, zero risk does not stop there. i fully support my colleague, mr monti, i will insist on what i see as two quite fundamental points. the first is that the mental confusion of the same opinion from the international community to keep support for the right of those regions whic
16:12:04 <fizzie> olsner: http://sprunge.us/OURc
16:12:25 * olsner is such a bonus pretzel!
16:12:49 <fizzie> Oh no, the explosions have begun.
16:13:22 <fizzie> (It's 13 minutes past 6pm here; fireworks are permitted past 6pm.)
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16:13:45 <olsner> 6h before the new year? poor dogs and owners
16:14:29 <fizzie> I think there's generally a burst at around this time, then it simmers down, and then heats up again for the 9pm-to-midnight period.
16:15:07 <olsner> I wonder if there are any regulations at all here
16:15:25 <fizzie> We have this... rocky hilltop with no buildings kind of thing to one direction of the house, a lot of people launch their fireworks from there.
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16:16:08 <fizzie> Apparently the allowed time interval is from 6pm to 2am.
16:16:20 <oerjan> explosions have begun here too. like, two days ago.
16:17:41 <fizzie> The firework sales started on December 27th, and there were a couple of booms back then too.
16:17:47 <fizzie> But only very sporadically.
16:18:07 <oerjan> ok i guess it was sporadic until today
16:18:30 <elliott> fizzie: does new year exist in finland
16:18:32 <elliott> does finland exist
16:18:46 <fizzie> `? finland
16:18:47 <oerjan> yes, and no, respectively
16:18:47 <HackEgo> Finland is a European country. There are two people in Finland, and at least nine of them are in this channel. Corun drives the bus.
16:18:48 <olsner> can new years exist in a place that doesn't exist?
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17:26:59 <Taneb> Uses for Godel, Escher and Bach by Douglas Hofstadter number #427: holding down the circle button so you get loads of bolts on Ratchet and Clank
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17:33:57 <Phantom_Hoover> most uses of geb are a result of its physical properties though
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18:05:17 <ais523> happy australian mailman mailing list reminders day!
18:06:06 <elliott> ais523: what do you call the one that comes right before new year's specifically
18:06:29 <ais523> new year's eve, I guess
18:07:20 <elliott> I mean the reminders occasion
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18:07:38 <Phantom_Hoover> australian mailman mailing list reminders eve, presumably
18:07:49 <ais523> no, that would be the day before new year's eve
18:12:42 <Sgeo> Apparently my blog made it to Planet Clojure
18:12:49 <Sgeo> https://github.com/ghoseb/planet.clojure/commit/3e6b511d81acd1cde2f1fa2e63f44d3f48eab550
18:13:12 <Sgeo> Although it's not like it's only the best and brightest who make it there
18:13:30 <Sgeo> *cough* Ryan Kelker *cough*
18:13:39 <oerjan> yes mr. comet, now you are famous!
18:21:07 <oerjan> also the oldest post on your main page lacks at least a clojure tag.
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18:32:27 <Sgeo> Good point
18:32:58 <kmc> who is ryan kelker
18:33:16 <Sgeo> Added the tag. No idea how that interacts with Planet Clojure
18:33:33 <elliott> kmc: who is clojure
18:34:19 <oerjan> roland "lispy" clojure, french mad scientist supervillain
18:34:38 <Sgeo> kmc, the guy who posted this http://www.reddit.com/r/Clojure/comments/122ll8/free_clojure_course/ and http://www.reddit.com/r/Clojure/comments/zrs7c/doseq_vs_for/
18:36:36 <kmc> are they bad or something
18:40:11 <Sgeo> I think the person doesn't understand Clojure that well
18:40:19 <Sgeo> Yet believes he is capable of teaching it
18:41:01 <Bike> "The loop function / The doseq function / The for function" nice
18:45:20 <oerjan> i just can't not paste this http://phenomena.nationalgeographic.com/2012/12/24/the-quantum-earthworm/
18:46:16 <Bike> underground alchemists
18:53:49 <kmc> that sounds like half of #haskell :/
18:54:16 <oerjan> half of #haskell are underground alchemists, check
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18:55:36 <elliott> kmc: #haskell is better now!
18:55:38 <elliott> haha, just kidding
18:55:51 <kmc> :/
18:57:02 <Sgeo> The answer to a portion of the badness seems obvious: Two lambdabots
18:57:10 <Sgeo> One with Caleskell, one with Realskell
18:57:15 <elliott> how about just one lambdabot
18:57:17 <elliott> with haskell
18:57:24 <elliott> I think there is only one Caleskell thing now
18:57:36 <elliott> but it is also the one Cale is least likely to get rid of
18:57:37 <Sgeo> By Realskell I mean non-Caleskell Haskell
18:57:58 <elliott> yes but Caleskell barely exists any more
18:58:19 <Sgeo> Oh, what's the remaining Caleskell thing
18:58:23 <Sgeo> I misread that line atfirst
18:58:25 <Sgeo> at first
18:58:33 <elliott> :t (.)
18:58:34 <lambdabot> Functor f => (a -> b) -> f a -> f b
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19:07:42 <GreyKnight> fooo
19:08:30 <kmc> :t 2 3
19:08:32 <lambdabot> (Num a, Num (a -> t)) => t
19:08:34 <kmc> ^^^^
19:08:40 <kmc> :t x
19:08:41 <lambdabot> Expr
19:08:50 <kmc> :t 3 x + 7
19:08:52 <elliott> kmc: read ":t 2 3" again
19:08:52 <lambdabot> (Num (Expr -> a), Num a) => a
19:08:59 <kmc> oh ok
19:09:00 <elliott> > 2 3
19:09:03 <lambdabot> Could not deduce (GHC.Num.Num (a0 -> t))
19:09:03 <lambdabot> arising from the ambiguity chec...
19:09:16 <elliott> kmc: the f/x/etc. things might be Caleskell but they're also very useful for pedagogy
19:09:19 <elliott> so I don't count them
19:09:27 <elliott> > foldr f z [a,b,c,d]
19:09:29 <lambdabot> f a (f b (f c (f d z)))
19:09:30 <elliott> etc.
19:10:26 <kmc> they are useful yeah
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19:16:34 <GreyKnight> Half of #haskell are earthworms
19:19:06 <GreyKnight> `quote 804
19:19:08 <HackEgo> 804) * oerjan makes a brainfuck derivative for quoting xkcds
19:22:26 -!- monqy has joined.
19:22:49 * GreyKnight shoots oerjan with a firework -----==>
19:22:52 * kmc makes a brainfuck derivative for stabbing people in the face over the internet
19:24:06 * GreyKnight makes a firework for deriving people over the Internet
19:24:20 * oerjan makes a brainfuck derivative for bricking brains. checkmate Phantom_Hoover!
19:26:30 <GreyKnight> I want to read more of http://phantom-hoover.tumblr.com/
19:26:40 <GreyKnight> but there are only two posts :<
19:27:21 <GreyKnight> Hmm I'm hungry
19:30:07 <Sgeo> GreyKnight, read my blog instead?
19:30:17 -!- GreyKnight has quit (Quit: Reconnecting…).
19:30:38 <elliott>
19:30:48 -!- GreyKnight has joined.
19:31:20 <Sgeo> Phantom Hoover's tumblr is funny. Mine is not.
19:31:24 * Sgeo has a sad
19:32:30 <Sgeo> I'm going to be AFK later
19:32:31 <oerjan> on the bright side, your tumblr is written by you
19:32:48 <Sgeo> Heading out east
19:36:11 <GreyKnight> IIRC it is ghostwritten by someone else
19:36:14 <GreyKnight> I don't recall who
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19:39:48 <oerjan> GreyKnight: Taneb
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19:51:35 <Phantom_Hoover> sadly my tumblr is inactive now
19:52:12 <Phantom_Hoover> in the wake of hate mail
19:52:34 <Bike> hate mail for what?
19:52:47 <Phantom_Hoover> my tumblr
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19:53:58 <Phantom_Hoover> `welcome WetThePeople
19:53:59 <HackEgo> WetThePeople: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
19:54:22 <Bike> i mean, what was the hate about
19:54:36 <Phantom_Hoover> brainfuck derivatives, what else
19:54:48 <Bike> heh
19:55:01 <Fiora> oh, not like, an unpopular homestuck ship?
19:55:30 <oerjan> i have this nagging suspicion neither Bike nor Fiora has seen Phantom_Hoover's tumblr
19:55:43 <Bike> nope
19:55:47 <Fiora> nope
19:56:03 <Bike> oh is it that prettycurehentaixxx one that followed fiora? i bet it is
19:56:13 <Phantom_Hoover> http://phantom-hoover.tumblr.com/
19:56:35 <Fiora> ... just two posts? XD
19:56:45 <Bike> god damn it, i thought you were joking
19:56:50 <Phantom_Hoover> pester taneb if you want more
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20:19:38 <TeruFSX> you could cover Immi
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20:38:27 <Sgeo> I wish it was socially acceptable for men to use purses.
20:38:48 <Bike> it's socially acceptable for you to hit jerks with them so go for it
20:38:50 <Sgeo> I also hate the fact that at least on this matter I'm valuing social acceptability over function
20:39:12 <shachaf> It isn't?
20:42:14 <Fiora> maybe strike a balance by using a messenger bag?
20:42:30 <Fiora> I use one instead of a purse anyways most of the time
20:42:44 <Sgeo> Is it socially acceptable to wear a backpack outside of school contexts?
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20:43:11 <Fiora> I always felt weird with that, it's actually kind of frustrating
20:43:24 <Fiora> it was infinitely easier to carry my laptop in a backpack than with my messenger bag
20:43:30 <Fiora> since my back is way stronger than my arms or shoulders
20:43:40 <Fiora> but after graduating from school I felt like an idiot wearing it
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20:45:53 * shachaf tends to carry a backpack most places.
20:46:06 <GreyKnight> I have my backpack on pretty much everywhere
20:46:23 <shachaf> Perhaps I should go to school to get rid of that habit.
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20:50:32 <greyooze> Sgeo: http://sgeo.tumblr.com/post/38587255013/straight-translations-of-monads-from-haskell-to-x is interesting, I didn't know people were exporting monads to other languages
20:50:34 <greyooze> you should write more about the hows whys and wherefores :-)
20:50:44 -!- greyooze has changed nick to GreyKnight.
20:51:26 <Sgeo> I could rant about the how nots
20:51:59 <Sgeo> I'm going to get going soon
20:56:32 <GreyKnight> `quote
20:56:33 <HackEgo> 100) <alise> like, just like I'd mark "Bob knob hobs deathly poop violation EXCREMENT unto;" as English <ais523> alise: that's great filler <alise> ais523: well it contains all the important words in the english language...
20:57:31 <shachaf> `quote profunctor
20:57:33 <HackEgo> No output.
20:57:37 <shachaf> `quote functor
20:57:38 <HackEgo> 857) [after discussing lens] <hagb4rd> they seem to be the fashion of this winter <GreyKnight> hagb4rd is wearing this season's Lens, a stunning little ensemble with functor trim
20:57:47 <Bike> all i can think is "prolapse", weird
20:57:52 <shachaf> `quote variant
20:57:54 <HackEgo> 198) <j-invariant> 22:55 < qfr> How am I supposed to develop software in Haskell if I can't even prepare my projects in UML?! It seems like an impossible task. <j-invariant> HAHA [...] <j-invariant> this is amazing, like meeting a Mormon or something \ 213) <j-invariant> I need a new desktop background <Gregor> j-invariant: Try http://codu.org
20:58:40 <Bike> i like this guy
20:58:41 <GreyKnight> `quote 213
20:58:42 <HackEgo> 213) <j-invariant> I need a new desktop background <Gregor> j-invariant: Try http://codu.org/spinners.png (tiled) <j-invariant> uhrghoaudp
20:59:04 <Bike> hey, i actually used to use that as my background.
20:59:05 <Sgeo> Going now
21:00:58 <GreyKnight> Sgeo is off to have a social life
21:01:13 <coppro> what
21:01:15 <coppro> that's absurd
21:02:05 <ais523> coppro: we know Sgeo has a social life
21:02:09 <ais523> but his social life is indeed absurd
21:02:16 <coppro> haha
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21:03:07 <coppro> my social life is pretty absurd
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21:25:43 <fizzie> ais523: http://zem.fi/egostats/plot_tapeheat.png
21:26:11 <ais523> ty
21:26:48 <fizzie> (I also made the per-program-and-tape-length plots have a fixed cell width, like quintopia suggested, which indeed made them look better.)
21:27:11 <fizzie> (Your program is kind of the odd one out.)
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21:30:59 <ais523> fizzie: yeah, it does a full tape clear
21:31:12 <ais523> so when it wins, it's often either at its own flag, or has been going back and forth for most of the game
21:36:19 <zzo38> I think you could make monads in whatever programming language or other stuff if you know what category it is; such as, Haskell is pure functions but in other programming language it might not be do you mean monads on the pure function category, or something else? However, impure functions with side effect does form a category too, it is the (Kleisli IO) category.
21:37:22 <Phantom_Hoover> awwww
21:37:41 <Phantom_Hoover> all the episodes of jam got taken down from youtube when i was only halfway through
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21:46:37 <zzo38> What if some programming language is made to use monads with some category other than functions?
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22:00:22 <oerjan> zzo38: i once tried to find out what would be the monads of a prolog-like language, which is based on relations instead of functions. and whether the definite clause grammar syntax was a monadic syntax. couldn't wrap my head around it properly, though.
22:00:46 <elliott> oerjan: there's an established relation between its grammar thing and monads, I think
22:01:17 <zzo38> I think a relations can form a category too.
22:01:20 <oerjan> (the usual DCG interpretation is essentially state threading like the State monad in haskell)
22:01:38 <oerjan> zzo38: sure they do, i just don't know what kind of monads that category has
22:01:57 <zzo38> Yes, I don't quite know either.
22:02:00 <fizzie> Yaaarrr it's 20-13 here now.
22:02:16 <oerjan> x (R . S) y = exists z. x R z & z S y is the usual composition
22:02:16 <nortti> fizzie: it is 7 there?
22:02:20 <zzo38> There is a identity monad for all categories though.
22:02:24 <elliott> fizzie: Happy using the wrong timezone, Finnish fuckers!!!!
22:02:25 <oerjan> for binary relations
22:02:26 <fizzie> nortti: It's 7 here.
22:03:31 <oerjan> elliott: do you think that because i've discussed this question here before, or because you have an actual reference? :P
22:03:58 <elliott> oerjan: I forget, but I've definitely heard it before, and I think not from you
22:04:06 <oerjan> (possibly both at the same time, in which case i've forgotten the reference)
22:07:31 <Phantom_Hoover> fireworks at ten?
22:07:36 <Phantom_Hoover> idiots
22:08:22 <fizzie> Fireworks from six to two.
22:08:51 <oklopol> fireworks from yesterday to next week
22:10:38 <fizzie> Fireworks all year.
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22:18:10 <zzo38> The category of relations is the Kleisli category of the set monad on the category of functions. Therefore, will a monad transformer possibly tell you anything about monads on a category of relations?
22:22:09 <oerjan> do monad transformers give monads on the kleisli category of the underlying monad?
22:23:16 <zzo38> I don't know.
22:23:48 <zzo38> But I wonder if monad transformers could tell you anything at all about such things.
22:24:19 <oerjan> i don't know either, but that would mean you at least get some monads
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22:25:37 <oerjan> the pure morphism should have type forall a. Kleisli m a (...something...)
22:26:08 <oerjan> or forall a. a -> m (...something...)
22:26:46 <oerjan> where something shouldn't be a itself unless you want the identity monad
22:27:26 <oerjan> it seems unlikely to me that every monad transformer gives something of that form
22:28:39 <zzo38> It seems unlikely to me too
22:30:18 <zzo38> But does WriterT do that?
22:30:55 <oerjan> a -> m (w, a)
22:31:14 <oerjan> :t runWriterT
22:31:15 <lambdabot> WriterT w m a -> m (a, w)
22:31:23 -!- nooga has joined.
22:31:25 <nooga> weeeeeeee
22:31:44 <oerjan> so return of WriterT rewraps to the right type
22:31:51 <nooga> eat okay
22:31:54 <oerjan> wait no
22:32:01 <nooga> star ham
22:32:17 <oerjan> :t runWriterT . return
22:32:19 <lambdabot> (Monad m, Monoid w) => a -> m (a, w)
22:32:27 <oerjan> yes it does
22:33:04 <nooga> okay
22:34:02 <oerjan> so T = (, w)
22:35:23 <shachaf> Are you talking about corepresentability or somethin'?
22:35:31 <oerjan> and then we need mu : T (T a) -> m (T a)
22:35:53 <nooga> i've seen an argument between theorietic physicists
22:36:06 <oerjan> shachaf: no, we're wondering if WriterT (and perhaps some other transformers) gives a monad in the kleisli category of the underlying monad
22:36:06 <nooga> in Max Planck Institute
22:36:22 <nooga> it looked as follows:
22:36:36 <nooga> one guy writes pi sigma tau on the blacboard
22:36:43 <nooga> 10 minutes later
22:36:59 <oerjan> mu :: ((a, w), w) -> m (a, w)
22:36:59 <Bike> pacific standard time?
22:37:00 <nooga> the other guy erases pi and puts lambda instead
22:37:25 <nooga> Bike?
22:37:31 <nooga> who's Bike anyway?
22:37:35 <elliott> bike is bike
22:37:37 <elliott> are you drunk
22:37:42 <Bike> what are bikes? we just don't know
22:37:44 <nooga> exactly
22:37:58 <nooga> i've got a bike, you can ride if you'd like
22:38:03 <nooga> & stuff
22:38:11 <shachaf> hi Bike
22:38:20 <shachaf> do you like corepresentability or representability more
22:38:25 <shachaf> "choose wisely"
22:38:29 <nooga> elliott: how did you know?
22:38:40 <Bike> Corepresentability is a dog.
22:39:25 <oerjan> @hoogle ((a, w), w) -> m (a, w)
22:39:26 <lambdabot> No results found
22:39:56 <elliott> nooga: it was kind of obvious
22:40:42 <oerjan> :t return . writer . join . runWriter
22:40:44 <lambdabot> (Monad ((,) a), Monad m, MonadWriter w m1) => Writer (a, w) a -> m (m1 a)
22:40:57 <shachaf> You should use (w,) instead of (,w)
22:41:05 <shachaf> (,w): THE ENEMY
22:41:17 <oerjan> shachaf: sadly transformers disagrees
22:41:27 <shachaf> sadly transformers is a liar
22:42:12 <zzo38> I agree that (w,) would be a better way to define it (and it should be itself defined as a monad)
22:45:29 <oerjan> :t return . writer . join . runWriter :: Monad m => ((a, w), w) -> m (a, w)
22:45:30 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `((a, w), w)'
22:45:31 <lambdabot> with actual type `Writer w0 a0'
22:45:31 <lambdabot> Expected type: ((a, w), w) -> (w, (w, w1))
22:45:42 <oerjan> oh hm
22:46:05 <oerjan> :t return . join . writer
22:46:06 <lambdabot> (Monad m, MonadWriter w m1) => (m1 a, w) -> m (m1 a)
22:46:24 -!- oerjan has quit (*.net *.split).
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22:46:33 <oerjan> :t return . join . writer :: Monad m => ((a, w), w) -> m (a, w)
22:46:34 <lambdabot> Could not deduce (Monad ((,) a1)) arising from a use of `join'
22:46:34 <lambdabot> from the context (Monad m)
22:46:34 <lambdabot> bound by the inferred type of
22:46:37 <zzo38> Ignoring wrappers and stuff, (return . join) would obviously be the correct type, at least.
22:48:19 <oerjan> :t return . join . map writer . writer :: Monad m => ((a, w), w) -> m (a, w)
22:48:20 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `(a, (a, w))' with actual type `[b0]'
22:48:20 <lambdabot> Expected type: [a0] -> (a, (a, w))
22:48:20 <lambdabot> Actual type: [a0] -> [b0]
22:48:37 * oerjan decides to ignore the wrappers
22:49:37 <kmc> Hhttp://www.cs.earlham.edu/~jeremiah/linux-pix/linux20shark.jpg
22:50:59 <Bike> does linux even have that level of WordArt
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22:53:49 <kmc> obviously you just write a TRIVIAL raytracer as a bash script
22:54:17 <oerjan> `addquote <kmc> obviously you just write a TRIVIAL raytracer as a bash script
22:54:21 <HackEgo> 891) <kmc> obviously you just write a TRIVIAL raytracer as a bash script
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23:11:50 <oerjan> happy new year etc.
23:14:15 <elliott> oerjan: fuck you it's not new yea'rs yet
23:14:19 <kmc> UTC+1?
23:14:19 <elliott> FUCK YOU and FUCK THE NEW year
23:14:26 <elliott> UTC+norway
23:14:46 <kmc> ÜτÇ
23:14:59 <Jafet> Happy happy new year's day day
23:15:56 <fizzie> Hapy nyr.
23:16:25 <fizzie> `words --finnish --norwegian 10
23:16:28 <HackEgo> kuva ressaksjon jøyalaistid sykeoritselvist lasterämilliardean herrettelever persona hipeämme trenemenevimme korrekursidi
23:16:44 <fizzie> Happy jøyalaistid, everyone.
23:17:10 <oerjan> happy jøyalaistid
23:17:19 <zzo38> But see if you have the monad laws to make a writer monad on a category of relations.
23:19:05 <Vorpal> Happy new year!
23:19:24 <Vorpal> (at least in UTC+1)
23:19:36 <fizzie> `words --swedish 10
23:19:38 <HackEgo> insens bråks förarna nationenskansens ohyggarna lovspännis ogärnblick infotoket arkt involutslöj
23:19:48 <oerjan> clearly you must mean göalaistid
23:19:49 <fizzie> Vorpal: Happy involutslöj too.
23:20:31 <fizzie> And an ogärnblick lovspännis också.
23:21:41 <Vorpal> fizzie, what the hell?
23:21:49 <oerjan> just keep the ohyggarna away
23:22:08 <fizzie> Don't start any bråks.
23:22:17 <Vorpal> fizzie, "involutslöj" look more like Finnish than Swedish to me
23:22:46 <elliott> Vorpal: UTC+1 ISNT REAL
23:22:48 <oerjan> aka "Vorpal has no idea how finnish works"
23:22:51 <Vorpal> elliott, oh?
23:22:59 <Vorpal> oerjan, true
23:23:43 <oerjan> Vorpal: tycker du inte det är löjligt med involutionar?
23:23:53 <Jafet> `words --gaelic 10
23:23:54 <fizzie> I don't think there's any Finnish word that would end in a "j".
23:23:55 <HackEgo> h-eòla slaid deilinn sìth thar camhnapag rìochadh shèidh cè fis
23:23:57 <Vorpal> oerjan, "involutionar"?
23:24:03 <fizzie> Hey, my user account is there.
23:24:57 <elliott> fizzie: fis is Finnish for "a really dumb terrible person", right
23:25:11 <Jafet> `words --esolangs 20
23:25:12 <HackEgo> oddball v-- jump shersuble colambda crab unisp sheltaplex betal numberwatesyze kayak bline etaplet bub fob toi formula hatercal p xs
23:25:18 <oerjan> Vorpal: sorry, *involutioner
23:25:41 <Jafet> HATERCAL
23:26:15 <oerjan> some of those are clearly missing in the wiki
23:26:49 <oerjan> sheltaplex and colambda in particular
23:26:53 <fizzie> `run words --esolangs 20 #MORE
23:26:55 <HackEgo> chinter per alpaca 01_ nullfuck/w/ind rever eneversioncom 2d-ref hat2.0 ihat arbf nhohnhehr limp boat ver minitum bet thesquiem mdpn bit
23:26:58 <oerjan> oh wait
23:27:03 <oerjan> colambda exists
23:27:12 <fizzie> hat2.0, the best language for hats.
23:27:20 <fizzie> hat2.0 is also right next to ihat.
23:27:33 <fizzie> At least it's obvious whose bot HackEgo is.
23:27:48 <elliott> fizzie: You didn't answer my question :,(
23:28:16 <fizzie> elliott: IT DOES NOT EXIST
23:28:24 <zzo38> OK, make up HATERCAL then. I think list of ideas does now have section about names, with some things written there.
23:28:33 <oerjan> elliott: fis is norwegian for fart, hth
23:28:56 <kmc> HATERCAL
23:29:20 <Vorpal> <oerjan> Vorpal: sorry, *involutioner <-- I have no idea what that is?
23:30:32 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Involution might help.
23:30:52 <Vorpal> ah, I see
23:31:50 * oerjan looks up the esoteric meaning
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23:33:13 <kmc> numberwatesyze sounds like the polish version of numberwang
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23:33:41 <oerjan> nooga: you get right working on that.
23:34:41 <oerjan> HATERCAL is like intercal except with a rather different politeness calibration. also it has GOTO.
23:35:19 <oerjan> ais523 cannot maintain it, as it uses "DAMN YOU" obligatory in places
23:37:32 <oerjan> *ACRONYM FIT TO PRINT
23:38:46 <oerjan> not sure that's an improvement. but then, what in HATERCAL is.
23:39:24 <oerjan> except the GOTO, which complements the flow control in the way ais523 has suggested.
23:43:00 <oerjan> the esoteric involution article is clearly relevant btw:
23:43:04 <oerjan> "As an example, the so-called descent of the Monad into matter means an involution or involving or infolding of spiritual potencies into material vehicles which coincidentally and contemporaneously, through the compelling urge of the infolding energies, unfold their own latent capacities, unwrap them, roll them forth; and this is the evolution of matter."
23:43:20 <Bike> is that leibniz or something
23:43:34 <oerjan> – Gottfried de Purucker
23:44:05 <oerjan> same first name
23:45:17 -!- oerjan has set topic: As an example, the so-called descent of the Monad into matter means an involution | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
23:45:30 <nooga> oerjan: ?
23:45:45 <oerjan> nooga: <kmc> numberwatesyze sounds like the polish version of numberwang
23:45:56 <nooga> what's numberwang?
23:46:08 <Jafet> `words --esolangs 20
23:46:10 <HackEgo> hev dumbf*ck mempovar murin con bytep underix wikipleaseporth fullfuck-- rever shack bak 2d-ref shogoriendevia fanjix incal evil cha fugue flog
23:46:29 <oerjan> THAT'S NUMBERWANG
23:46:43 <elliott> shogoriendevia
23:46:43 <nooga> pitty people
23:46:52 <oerjan> also http://esolangs.org/wiki/Numberwang
23:47:24 <nooga> provide context of kmc's statement' please
23:48:04 <oerjan> elliott: i wonder how it got that, i don't recognize any of the pieces
23:48:31 <nooga> last ' -> ,
23:49:12 <oerjan> <HackEgo> oddball v-- jump shersuble colambda crab unisp sheltaplex betal numberwatesyze kayak bline etaplet bub fob toi formula hatercal p xs
23:49:21 <oerjan> nooga: ^
23:49:41 <nooga> and?
23:50:00 <oerjan> nooga: it's an autogenerated esolang name
23:50:08 <nooga> am I supposed to approve that this shit is polish version of numberwang?
23:50:50 <oerjan> no, you are supposed to _make_ the polish version of numberwang, duh
23:51:00 * oerjan thinks people are _so_ slow today
23:51:01 <nooga> pierdolę
23:53:24 <oerjan> nooga: this should help you get started http://translate.google.no/translate?sl=en&tl=pl&js=n&prev=_t&hl=no&ie=UTF-8&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fesolangs.org%2Fwiki%2FNumberwang
23:53:39 -!- etb has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
23:53:46 <oerjan> the worst thing is, i'm entirely sober
23:53:59 <nooga> I completely understood the english version
23:54:09 <nooga> but it's unbelievably stupid
23:54:18 <nooga> and oerjan
23:54:40 <nooga> I know that hi-voltage alcohol is almost unavailable in Norway
23:54:49 <nooga> that's a pitty
23:54:53 <nooga> come to PL
23:55:05 <oerjan> it's ok i had aquavit on christmas eve
23:55:17 <nooga> 0.2l ? :P
23:56:12 <oerjan> no, a small glass.
23:56:27 <nooga> 0.1ml ?:P
23:56:31 <oerjan> also i'm not complaining about not having alcohol.
23:56:39 <nooga> yes
23:56:47 <nooga> because you're boring Norwegian
23:56:51 <oerjan> i just realized i was behaving as if i was drunk above
23:57:01 <nooga> you were
23:57:33 <nooga> i'll tell you a story
23:57:50 <oerjan> also i am fully assuming you are drunk. you're polish after all.
23:58:11 <nooga> I'm not drunk constantly, mind You
23:58:28 <nooga> and pilish is for nails
23:58:33 <nooga> polish*
23:58:40 <oerjan> IF YOU SAY SO
23:58:42 <nooga> Polish is the word
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