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00:12:49 <doesthiswork> I'm thinking about making it so you have to explicitly bind the values returned from a function to variables. No more of this implicit replacement stuff. so %(41,3)(a,b){ rest of computation } will mod 42 by 3 returning (13,2) and within the brackets "a" will be 13 and "b" will be 2
00:13:42 <doesthiswork> there will also be more syntactical symmetry between function call and returns
00:14:05 <Bike> so, continuation passing style?
00:14:37 <doesthiswork> maybe, I don't know enough about continuation passing style
00:15:06 <Bike> CPS is a bit annoying to program in yeah :P
00:15:34 <Bike> in CPS you'd have like lambda(a,b){ rest of computation } and %(41,3,that_lambda)
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00:15:51 <Bike> except of course that the lambda itself takes a continuation
00:16:53 <Bike> and then you can't just do a "normal return", you have to pass something to a continuation
00:17:18 <Bike> at some point you presumably have a semimagical continuation meaning "fuck this, print whatever and quit"
00:17:47 <elliott> it's not really that magical
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00:18:19 <Bike> fine just kill the magic will ya
00:19:27 <Sgeo> Manually CPSed code is nicer to write in Haskell than in Javascript, imo
00:19:35 <doesthiswork> I was planing on makeing you write (((2 + 3) * 5) / (1-3)) as +(2,3)(a){ *(a,5)(b){ -(2,3)(c){ /(b,c)(d){ }}}} which does end up looking alot like continuations passing style
00:20:37 <doesthiswork> and has the nice benefit of making it sequential when it didn't have to be sequential before.
00:23:13 <Bike> +(2,3)(a,k){*(a,5)(b){-(2,3)(c){/(b,c)k}}}
00:23:20 <Bike> nicely ugly yeah
00:25:34 <Bike> we have to talk about esolangs sometime elliott, or the opers will come down from on high
00:26:01 <Bike> obviously the ops here don't care
00:26:13 <Bike> you have no standards
00:26:24 <elliott> we had an oper in here for like a month once :->
00:26:46 <Bike> how'd you chase 'em off?
00:26:54 <ais523> I just can't really do much about it
00:26:55 <oerjan> ruined all the bots, except fungot
00:26:56 <fungot> oerjan: i think the former evaluates the lambda with the up? girlfriend trouble?'. i refuse to believe you :p ( after all, so i can't be sure
00:27:12 <ais523> oerjan: did the oper just go around banning bots, then?
00:28:06 <oerjan> until he rectified them
00:33:31 <oerjan> he just gave Gregor an offer he couldn't refuse
00:37:18 <doesthiswork> I think I will modify it so you don't need the curly brackets, because with the scope defining curly brackets it is identical to continuation passing style
00:42:41 <doesthiswork> and without brackets its identical to cps hmmm :|
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01:05:58 <lambdabot> MonadState s m => (s -> (a, s)) -> m a
01:08:18 <oerjan> note that the way it _is_ it fits into Lens using the (,) a Functor...
01:09:01 <shachaf> elliott has been possessed by the adjunction demon
01:09:23 <shachaf> He's not possessed enough to see tht (_,s) is totally a functor.
01:10:04 <oerjan> um i'm pointing out that (a,_) is a functor. i think.
01:10:22 <elliott> oerjan: well there is no s ->
01:10:32 <elliott> you need (s -> (a, s)) -> _ -> m a
01:10:43 <elliott> you need (s -> (a, s)) -> _ -> (a, a)
01:12:29 <oerjan> elliott: what i'm saying is that Lens' s a has the restricted type (s -> (b, s)) -> a -> (b, a)
01:13:30 <oerjan> which allows you to use it to change the state part
01:13:34 <shachaf> Not (a -> (b,a)) -> s -> (b,s)?
01:14:00 <oerjan> i haven't quite learned which goes where yet
01:14:14 <shachaf> There was a lens library that represented lenses as State x a -> State x s, I think
01:14:26 <shachaf> Unfortunately that doesn't let you do some things.
01:14:28 <lambdabot> http://hackage.haskell.org/package/lenses
01:14:42 <elliott> oerjan: you can look to "traverse" for intuition
01:14:49 <elliott> (a -> f b) -> t a -> f (t b)
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02:07:29 <HackEgo> Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
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02:10:29 <shachaf> C++11 lets you declare functions with "auto foo(...) -> t" instead of "t foo(...)"?
02:11:35 <Sgeo> I have no idea what slist stands for
02:14:38 <pikhq> I don't recall the rationale.
02:15:40 <shachaf> The rationale seems to be that ... is in scope on the right side of the function.
02:23:34 <Gregor> Holy crap, Pringles sea salt and vinegar is surprisingly amazing. It's exactly the right mix of vinegar and potato.
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02:27:01 <elliott> "exactly the right mix of vinegar and potato"...
02:35:59 <pikhq> doesthiswork: They're made using potato *flour*.
02:36:06 <pikhq> Gregor: That may be worth a try.
02:36:10 <pikhq> I love salt & vinegar.
02:38:37 <Sgeo> I love salt, don't really know what vinegar tastes like, except apparently ketchup is vinegary?
02:39:02 <ais523> Sgeo: it's actually surprisingly sweet
02:39:05 <pikhq> Ketchup isn't a very good comparison.
02:39:10 <ais523> it's pretty readily available, though, you could just try it to see if you like it
02:39:12 <pikhq> It's a vinegar, tomato, and sugar sauce.
02:39:30 <pikhq> A lot of sugar. A *lot*.
02:39:51 <ais523> fish and chip shops (which are a UK thing) put salt and vinegar on everything they sell (except salad) by default, if you don't want them you have to ask them not to put it on
02:40:03 <ais523> btw, I hardly ever add salt to food nowadays
02:40:21 <ais523> I do sort-of like it, but not enough for it to be worth the trouble, and it leaves my diet marginally better
02:40:47 <pikhq> Salt & vinegar salad seems a bit much.
02:40:47 <ais523> elliott: well putting oil and vinegar on salad is very common
02:41:02 <ais523> salad dressing is basically just a mix of oil and vinegar
02:41:07 <elliott> no it's a salad actually made out of salt and vinegar
02:41:10 <pikhq> A vinaigrette, sure.
02:41:30 <Sgeo> I used to love garlic salt when I was a kid
02:41:36 <pikhq> ais523: Keep in mind the US uses mayonaisse-based salad dressings too.
02:41:54 <ais523> pikhq: so does the UK, but we just call it mayonnaise
02:42:04 <ais523> and it's a separate concept from "salad dressing"
02:42:10 <pikhq> Ranch dressing ain't just mayo.
02:42:19 <ais523> yeah, that exists here too
02:42:31 <ais523> it's just that it's not called "salad dressing" unless it's an oil/vinegar mix, it's called something else
02:42:53 <pikhq> In the US, "salad dressing" refers to anything you could plausibly use as a sauce for salad.
02:43:37 <pikhq> Hence why it's ranch dressing, not ranch... i dunno
02:44:58 <pikhq> Also, for some reason Miracle Whip calls itself a salad dressing, but I've never even heard of anyone using it as such.
02:45:51 <pikhq> Pretty much exclusively a sandwich spread thing.
02:58:41 <TeruFSX2> people put miracle whip on jello? ew.
02:59:15 <ais523> I didn't realise people put any topping at all on that
02:59:33 <ais523> except when using it as an ingredient to make trifle
02:59:52 <pikhq> UK "jelly" yeah. Though calling it that will confuse Americans.
03:01:44 <ais523> I guessed from the similarity of names, but it's quite a hard substance to explain
03:02:02 <pikhq> US "jelly" is a particular type of fruit preserve.
03:02:39 <ais523> hmm… something like UK "marmalade"?
03:03:06 <pikhq> No, UK "marmalade" is US "marmalade".
03:03:42 <pikhq> US "jelly" generally is made with the fruit pulp strained out in the preperation.
03:04:27 <doesthiswork> aspic is jello that happens naturally and then has the peices strained out of it
03:07:07 <doesthiswork> one dessert that uses jello,is made from miracle whip, cottage cheese mini marshmallows and lime jello
03:08:42 <kmc> "Who eats braised ivy? And what was with that owl all smeared in mayonnaise?... A fox fighting an eel, suspended in aspic. It was like a Nine Inch Nails video."
03:10:07 <ais523> doesthiswork: trifle is basically a layered desert made out of lots of other deserts
03:10:26 <ais523> it's based around some sort of fruit, sponge, jelly[UK], custard, and cream
03:11:15 <ion> So it’s basically a monoid?
03:12:42 <doesthiswork> yes is is something like a trifle except shallower
03:13:29 <doesthiswork> and never includes anything that is made of flour
03:15:10 <ais523> ion: monads are like burritos, and monoids are like trifles?
03:15:29 <ion> A trifle satisfies the monoid laws.
03:15:30 <doesthiswork> 3 to four inches high instead of 6 to 8 inches, and no custard either, but can also have odd things like cottage cheese
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04:16:40 <kmc> http://robohub.org/video-throwing-and-catching-an-inverted-pendulum-with-quadrocopters/
04:16:59 <Bike> fucking inverted pendulums man
04:19:52 <kmc> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3CR5y8qZf0Y
04:19:56 <kmc> two quadcopters play tennis
04:20:41 <kmc> i wonder how many times they missed and completely wrecked one of the rotors
04:26:36 <kmc> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TI760jcFV2s
04:26:53 <kmc> some mistakes are inevitable as you refine the algorithms
04:26:59 <doesthiswork> oh, he said it wrecked a rotor quite a few time
04:27:44 <doesthiswork> and then they would have to recalibrate how that coptor moved to make the algorythm acurrate
04:28:13 <kmc> one of the other ETH flying machine videos says that the robots learn about rotor wear
04:28:19 <kmc> from crashes and from everyday use
04:32:09 <doesthiswork> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJOubyiITsE&NR=1&feature=endscreen more robots
04:32:19 <doesthiswork> they got the girl to stay still by projecting cartoons onto the ceiling
04:34:31 <kmc> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxMTKsiaLwg
04:34:40 <kmc> this is what we will see after the robots conquer humanity
04:34:43 <kmc> they will do a little dance
04:38:04 <Sgeo> Do surveillance drones look somewhat like that?
04:38:27 <Bike> Like quadcopters? No.
04:38:58 <kmc> doesthiswork: wow
04:39:01 <kmc> that is... quite something
04:39:10 <Bike> Predators are kinda huge. Dunno what's used domestically.
04:39:12 <doesthiswork> a guy I know uses a homebuilt quadracoptor to take photos of his farm
04:39:31 <kmc> there are all kinds of surveilance drones
04:39:38 <kmc> doesthiswork: that's excellent
04:41:15 <Sgeo> At first I thought the robots were going to put the girl on top of them and then fly
04:41:31 <Bike> that'd be cool, but this is good too.
04:42:28 <doesthiswork> kmc: you think a quadcotor is cool? this is twice as cool https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uy4lXRaGCOU
04:43:26 <Bike> does it go quaternion:octonion::quadrotor:octorotor
04:43:48 <kmc> i can't argue with that
04:45:58 <Bike> regular helicopters are pretty darn complex
04:48:49 <Bike> if i pirouette and jump off a building
04:49:00 <Bike> i think there are like, ones where you have one rotor but with two sets of blades on it?
04:49:33 <kmc> if the rotors are powered by tipjets then you don't need a tail rotor
04:49:47 <elliott> Bike: are you going to pirouette and jump off a building
04:50:05 <Bike> probably not, i'm no ballerino
04:50:21 <kmc> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s65MGR36tjE
04:51:10 <kmc> just think about the glorious VTOL rotodyne airliner future that never was
04:51:51 <Bike> uhhhhh 20 rotodynes cost as much as one fixed-wing? that's kinda hard to swallow
04:52:07 <kmc> where does it say
04:52:23 <kmc> i don't remember that bit
04:52:40 <kmc> they said it was a comparable cost
04:54:11 <Bike> oh, "equal to any" not "equal twenty"
04:56:58 <Bike> But uh, doesn't it need the propellers to stay stable?
05:01:32 <kmc> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDZelxNCLGk it's so cute
05:04:54 <Bike> haha, the eyes
05:16:53 <kmc> and how could i forget https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rypyjJCtGBE
05:17:13 <kmc> don't miss the part with the cows
05:17:43 <Bike> sometimes i forget that someone actually fuckin did that
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06:29:11 <ais523> found via reddit, definitely ontopic: https://github.com/jbangert/trapcc
06:29:35 <ais523> summary: someone managed to get the x86 MMU to run arbitrary code (and thus show it's a bounded-storage machine)
06:29:54 <Sgeo> Isn't that a thing that someone here linked to a presentation that ended with that?
06:30:04 <ais523> yeah, it might have been linked earlier
06:30:23 <ais523> yep, it seems pikhq linked it already
06:30:30 <Sgeo> I meant longer ago
06:30:37 <Sgeo> The CCC presentation
06:30:47 <Sgeo> That was all about... x86 ... stuff
06:31:07 <Bike> kmc linked it a few weeks ago, i think
06:38:36 <kmc> yeah i linked to the game of life demo earlier today
06:38:45 <kmc> and to the 29C3 talk when that video was posted a few months ago
06:39:28 <kmc> thanks shachaf :)
06:39:49 <shachaf> Now we can finally have our answer to an age-old question.
06:40:06 <Bike> is this a weird way of saying it's kmc's birthday
06:40:30 <shachaf> I thought it was the standard thing to do on IRC.
06:40:31 <ais523> if it isn't, there's been a surprisingly large number of accidental puns that could be interpreted that way
06:40:35 <ais523> (1 is surprisingly large)
06:40:47 <shachaf> haskell/09.12.30:04:13:12 <kmc> ah, i don't perceive much of a gap between 21 and 25. maybe i will when i'm 25
06:41:17 <ais523> kmc: well I'm 25, and I don't see much of a gap except in terms of four years of learning
06:41:31 <ais523> like, I'm 4 years more experienced in teaching programming and in hardware compilation
06:41:36 <ais523> because that's what I've been doing these 4 years
06:41:41 <ais523> but apart from that, I feel pretty much the same
06:43:20 <shachaf> I'm not sure "feel pretty much the same" is what "perceive much of a gap" means, though. Do you expect to not feel pretty much the same in, say, 40 years?
06:45:29 <doesthiswork> I'm sure that as time goes on you'll see even less of a gap
06:45:41 <Sgeo> Keeping in contact with someone from my Senior Project was a bad idea
06:46:12 <Sgeo> "But first, you have to do this. Create a website of your resume. Use any language you know. Try to use all the skills you know."
06:46:32 <Sgeo> A lot of my knowledge is flat out inapplicable to a website dedicated to presenting a resume
06:46:42 <Bike> not if you use haskellscript.
06:46:57 <Sgeo> I had to google that. It exists.
06:47:56 <Sgeo> But it's probably a better idea to fix out senior project so I can actually link to it without being horrifically embarrassed.
06:48:08 <kmc> shachaf: i will think about it :)
06:48:23 <Sgeo> Also, making a website look good visually is not a skill I have.
06:48:45 <Bike> well yeah, you're a programmer, not a designer
06:49:46 <kmc> dammit jim
06:49:54 <kmc> maybe Sgeo is a sgeogrammer
06:50:15 <Bike> is sgeo the ideogrammation
06:50:17 <Bike> sgeogrammation
06:50:37 <Sgeo> shachaf, just because I spend 90% of my time talking about languages doesn't mean I don't spend some time actually writing programs.
06:51:58 <shachaf> resume the résumé, by cole porter
06:53:46 <Sgeo> Cole Porter? I get that that's a person, but I don't know who it is or why e would have relevance to the joke.
06:54:07 <Bike> isn't that a jazzist
06:54:38 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begin_the_Beguine
06:55:38 <shachaf> Sgeo: are you using some variant of spivak pronouns here
06:55:50 <Bike> just use singular they
06:56:07 <shachaf> singular they are the best
06:56:54 <Sgeo> I can assure you a number of people in here greater than 1 have used Spivak pronouns.
06:57:05 <pikhq> So, today I learned about Saint Josaphat.
06:57:17 <pikhq> Or, as you may be more familiar with him, Siddhartha Gautama Buddha.
06:58:02 <Bike> isn't some buddhist saint i forget considered an incarnation of Mary
06:58:16 <pikhq> Long game of telephone based on the Buddha.
06:58:36 <pikhq> Not a Buddhist, literally the Buddha.
07:06:04 <shachaf> literal operator suffixes not preceded by ‘_’ are reserved for future standardization
07:06:46 <kmc> shachaf: i think i figured out cruptopizzles #14
07:06:59 <shachaf> Ugh, I was supposed to work on that today.
07:07:07 <kmc> have tested the algorithm by hand, but too sleepy to write the code tonight
07:07:09 <shachaf> I should go home and do it.
07:07:34 <shachaf> kmc: You're not doing it in assembly again, are you?
07:07:35 <kmc> it wasn't too hard, once i forced myself to sit down and think about it for a bit
07:07:52 <kmc> thinking about things where you have no idea how to proceed is scary
07:08:02 <shachaf> Yes, I don't think it's that difficult.
07:08:25 <kmc> shachaf: i'm not doing it in assembly :)
07:16:21 <kmc> the best i have is https://twitter.com/tqbf/status/303964223485140992
07:16:32 <kmc> there's not a site, you just email the guy
07:18:19 <Sgeo> Someone posted a link to a weird image in another chatroom
07:18:26 <Sgeo> Now I'm wondering if that's one of those
07:18:43 <kmc> there are several weird images on the internet
07:18:51 <Sgeo> http://i.imgur.com/xQsEVYE.png
07:18:55 <Sgeo> Any relevance?
07:19:04 <Bike> well that's a screenshot from a DS game
07:19:04 <kmc> don't think so
07:19:20 <Bike> also it looks like just a straight cipher?
07:29:06 <Sgeo> Gah. I see a comment referring to a book. I know the name of the book, but the comment is from 2010.
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07:30:41 <shachaf> Oh, C++11 can let you say "char x{5};" but not "char x{256};"?
07:31:01 <monqy> shachaf: good question
07:32:26 <Sgeo> The comment on here http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/1996-01-29/
07:32:43 <Bike> a comment from 2010 on a comic that's older than my brother
07:32:52 <Sgeo> Oh, they got the name right I think
07:33:00 <elliott> the real question is why you're reading a dilbert strip from 1996
07:33:03 <elliott> the real question is why you're reading a dilbert strip
07:33:29 <Bike> the real question is why
07:33:45 <Sgeo> I was reading a Dilbert strip from 1996 because someone commented on the most recent Dilbert strip and linked to that strip.
07:34:00 <Sgeo> I was practically raised by Dilbert.
07:34:10 <doesthiswork> you know scott adams says that that the creationists have a point
07:35:10 <elliott> scott adams says an awful lot of terrible things
07:35:15 <elliott> `addquote <Sgeo> I was practically raised by Dilbert.
07:35:25 <HackEgo> 965) <Sgeo> I was practically raised by Dilbert.
07:35:33 <Bike> so does thomas nagel and he's probably a smarter guy than adams
07:39:05 <Sgeo> o.O at how long ago 1996 was
07:39:34 <Sgeo> <insert observation that everyone makes here>
07:39:36 <shachaf> Hmm, that's quite a long time.
07:39:44 <Bike> hey sgeo you like animes right
07:39:47 <shachaf> Sgeo: What observation, that 1996 didn't really exist?
07:39:48 <Bike> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0026ERPHO
07:39:53 <Sgeo> Bike, at least some
07:39:56 <elliott> Bike: do i want to click this
07:40:05 <Bike> elliott: you know you do
07:40:34 <monqy> i recommend clicking this link
07:40:38 <monqy> it improved my life
07:40:58 <elliott> i want to buy it and uncover the mystery
07:41:08 <Sgeo> There's a preview thing
07:41:44 <monqy> Customers Who Viewed This Item Also Viewed Sadness and Sorrow - The Themes of Naruto
07:41:50 <Sgeo> I... do not understand what this thing is. All I know is that I could hear words when I took headphones off, it was that low
07:42:59 <Bike> doesthiswork: creationism
07:43:48 <doesthiswork> I tried to read the wikipedia article about him but the way it's written it ardly makes any sense
07:45:03 <shachaf> Sgeo..................................................
07:45:13 <Bike> i am now "in" on the "joke"
07:45:51 <shachaf> what else are you R"hi("in" on)hi"
07:46:00 <shachaf> (did i use correct C++11 syntax there)
07:46:22 <Bike> c11 has that synxtax?
07:46:25 <Sgeo> I have no idea how to tell when someone's being sarcastic and someone's serious
07:46:29 <Sgeo> At least, on the Internet
07:46:56 <Bike> i read a review of the emperor's new mind, does that count?
07:47:09 <shachaf> Bike: I don't think C11 does?
07:47:13 <doesthiswork> and get that uncomfortable feeling of, "wow you know so much more math than me but you're wrong for simple reasons"
07:47:23 <Sgeo> e.g. right now I can't tell if elliott genuinely does not get it, or if he's mocking me by pretending not to get it.
07:47:28 <Bike> doesthiswork: yeah that's what dennett said too, sorta
07:47:37 <elliott> iirc i like penrose because he's crazy
07:47:43 <Bike> "this sure is a project you're embarking on here! unfortunately, no"
07:47:47 <elliott> people who are right can often be really boring
07:47:54 <Bike> is penrose a cosmologist or just a physicist
07:48:01 <Bike> i'm reasonably sure there are no sane cosmologists
07:48:04 <shachaf> should i read "the road to reality"
07:48:15 <shachaf> 10:21 < ddarius> merijn: While I don't agree with much of what Penrose believes, "The Road to Reality" is a pretty amazing book. I can't believe he got it published.
07:49:00 <Bike> What's it about?
07:49:33 <shachaf> Maybe I should read: "Category Theory as Coherently Constructive Lattice Theory"
07:49:40 <shachaf> That's not a book, though, it's just a PDF.
07:50:22 <Bike> doesthiswork: http://ndpr.nd.edu/news/35163-mind-and-cosmos-why-the-materialist-neo-darwinian-conception-of-nature-%20is-almost-certainly-false/ re nagel
07:50:26 <doesthiswork> shachaf: that title scares the bejeebus out of me
07:50:31 <Bike> uh, except without the space.
07:51:03 <shachaf> doesthiswork: It's not that scary!
07:51:08 <shachaf> It explains all the words it uses straight off.
07:51:23 <Bike> i think i understand all those words right now, gosh
07:51:28 <elliott> Bike: that header image is great
07:51:29 <doesthiswork> it doesn't help that I don't know catagory theory
07:51:33 <Bike> (not that i'd understand the paper in any meaningful sense)
07:51:38 <shachaf> Bike: Don't worry, the actual text uses a whole lot more words.
07:51:40 <Bike> elliott: which image, then?
07:52:01 <elliott> doesthiswork: we have a nice guide to category theory
07:52:04 <elliott> start from `? monad and work outwards
07:52:07 <elliott> Bike: i have no idea how to copy it
07:53:14 <Bike> oh it's a background image huh
07:53:46 <elliott> this nagel thing looks pretty dull
07:54:30 <Bike> the book or the review
07:54:43 <elliott> well the review gives me the information that it looks dull
07:55:03 <doesthiswork> for Nagel, if science can't come up with a theory of everything it has, in some deep sense, failed.
07:55:22 <Bike> there is one of his problems
07:55:36 <Bike> other problems include hegelian evolution crap
07:55:42 <elliott> seems more like his definition of "everything" includes ", plus the bit science can't do, by (my) definition"
07:56:00 <elliott> IM EXPERT IN THIS GUY AFTER HAVING READ THREE PARAGRAPHS ABOUT A BOOK HE WROTE
07:56:14 <Bike> well he wrote "What Is It Like To Be A Bat"
07:56:20 <Bike> which I think shachaf has read maybe
07:56:53 <shachaf> You just think that because I read _The Mind's I_.
07:57:17 <Bike> I call it inference!
07:57:21 <shachaf> Bike: Did you read that one book?
07:57:36 <shachaf> _The Mind's I_ has two excerpts from it.
07:57:39 <Bike> No but I looked it up and was like ?? what
07:57:52 <Bike> yeah it's the one with the robot getting hammered right, and maybe the chimp on trial?
07:57:54 <shachaf> Oh, did you end up on that church website thing?
07:58:10 <Bike> have you read the one book?
07:58:26 <shachaf> Miedaner got mad because Hofstadter used the chapters to make the opposite point of the one he was trying to make.
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07:59:26 <shachaf> I guess you missed the last half hour of conversation?
07:59:44 <Bike> Yes. THat is what happened.
07:59:48 <Bike> Anna Klane I meant.
08:00:13 <Bike> Was it good? Did whoever make a dumb point?
08:00:38 <shachaf> The Church of Physical Theology, Ltd.
08:00:55 <Bike> sounds like a reputable place to buy churching, yeah
08:01:13 <shachaf> Bike: I enjoyed it despite the author being a bit silly.
08:01:30 <Bike> if i couldn't deal with silly authors i couldn't read anything
08:01:30 <Sgeo> What are those desktop computers that are a really small box?
08:01:47 <Bike> did you know that philip k dick once sent a letter to the FBI alleging that Lem was a committee of soviet propagandists
08:01:57 <elliott> Bike: um what about my books
08:02:14 <elliott> (well what would i even write)
08:02:36 <elliott> btw can someone make an awful bf derivative please
08:02:42 <shachaf> Do you want to read my copy?
08:02:46 <Bike> (a collection of erotic zzo38_ebooks fanfiction)
08:02:56 <Bike> shachaf: is it like online or what
08:02:57 <Sgeo> elliott, I have a bf derivative, don't know if it counts as awful
08:03:05 <elliott> (is it even possible to write that)
08:03:09 <elliott> Sgeo: no it has to be a new one
08:03:57 <Sgeo> It's almost trivial to make a Trustfuck derivative except the instruction set is shifted over. Does that help?
08:04:06 <shachaf> Bike: Not as far as I know.
08:04:13 <shachaf> My copy of it is floating around somewhere in WA, though.
08:04:28 <Bike> here is my bf derivative: the program consists of a number. to execute the program, you find a bf program that halts with that number in the first cell, and execute that.
08:04:55 <Bike> shachaf: well, that's not much of a direction, but i'll be on the lookout for your distinctive lipstick on the cover?
08:05:25 <shachaf> Bike: It should be somewhere in the northern olympic peninsula, if that helps.
08:05:32 <elliott> Bike: that's too complex, sorry
08:05:49 <Bike> the peninsula? i thought that was like, rural
08:05:56 <monqy> remember that time i made a bf derivative? i never wrote it down but its logged
08:06:02 <doesthiswork> shachaf: http://beon-cpt.com/ reiterates an incorrect story of Galileo, he didn't get in trouble for his ideas, he got in trouble for being an ass.
08:06:04 <elliott> monqy: i forget was it good
08:06:16 <Bike> doesthiswork: everybody reiterates that wrong though
08:06:18 <elliott> monqy: & also can you put one on the wiki, pref. the dumbest & most trivial
08:06:56 <shachaf> It's a small town, <10000 people.
08:07:13 <Bike> did you like, sell it, or just leave it in the well
08:07:17 <shachaf> Assuming that's where my book is. I don't actually know.
08:07:31 <shachaf> Who knows what she did to it.
08:07:37 * shachaf lived in WA for years, y'know.
08:08:56 <Bike> man i don't even know the geography of my own state, i'm a failure
08:12:11 <Sgeo> What's this about Worms?
08:17:52 <doesthiswork> the northern olympic peninsula has native species of cacti
08:18:18 <Bike> and octopuses!
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08:34:29 <shachaf> My laptop's lid-detection thing seems to be broken.
08:34:42 <shachaf> I'm used to closing it and putting it in my bag, though.
08:34:48 <shachaf> So it overheats and shuts off.
08:39:09 <elliott> well you want it to shut off when you close it
08:40:04 <mroman> runtime type checking has it's drawbacks :(
08:40:11 <blsqbot> ERROR: Burlesque: (r[) Empty list!
08:40:22 <mroman> the product of an empty list is generally defined as 1
08:40:35 <mroman> but I can't let product return 1 on empty lists.
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08:41:16 <Bike> just pick one and document it
08:42:00 <Bike> normally i'd say go with the integer because ha, ha, floats
08:42:41 <elliott> i don't believe you in the slightest
08:42:55 <Sgeo> In a practical language that's likely to be used for high-speed computation, maybe.
08:42:59 <blsqbot> ERROR: Burlesque: (pc) Invalid arguments!
08:43:12 <Bike> in a practical language, good topic
08:43:36 <Bike> anyway you could just have arithmetic functions be polymorphic like everyone else does
08:43:53 <Bike> or whatever you call randomly "upgrading" everything
08:44:04 <Sgeo> Is BLSQ only described in logs?
08:44:07 <mroman> !blsq {4 5 6 7}{1}++!!
08:44:19 <blsqbot> ERROR: Burlesque: (!!) Invalid arguments!
08:44:22 <Bike> you realize i have no idea how this syntax works right
08:44:25 <mroman> list indices are not doubles
08:44:42 <mroman> one might access an element in a list with (sum [])
08:44:42 <elliott> if you want doubles just have doubles
08:44:48 <elliott> they represent a reasonable range of ints perfectly
08:44:52 <elliott> eg 64 bit doubles give you 32 bit integer
08:44:59 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Real.Fractional GHC.Types.Int)
08:45:00 <elliott> however i dont see why you'd want doubles at all
08:45:20 <Sgeo> If it's not statically typed, why not rationals?
08:45:30 <Bike> what does that have to do with static typing
08:45:45 <Sgeo> Rationals might be... uh.. hmm, not sure what I was thinking
08:45:57 <Bike> you know i'm pretty sure it's impossible to do math in a programming language in a reasonable fashion
08:45:58 <Sgeo> Don't want to be able to use rationals to index things
08:45:59 <mroman> ^- That's what doubles are needed for.
08:46:06 <mroman> How else would you do poisson distributions?
08:46:26 <shachaf> Bike: is it possible to do a math in a reasonable fashion in general
08:46:27 <Sgeo> You lose type safety if your only numeric type is rationals
08:46:42 <Bike> Sgeo: imo just have rational indices filled in by linear interpolation
08:46:57 <Bike> shachaf: point
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08:47:35 <Bike> esolang that doesn't have arrays, just functions that can represent them
08:48:00 <Bike> make an array 1,1,2,6,24,... and it becomes the gamma function
08:48:00 <elliott> and all functions are continuous?
08:48:02 <Bike> roll in the dosh
08:48:30 <Bike> actually i guess we need complexes for completeness
08:48:46 <Bike> make every function a "continuous" "matrix"
08:49:13 <Bike> bonus: function composition is now just matrix multiplication
08:50:23 <Bike> don't i have to make all the default matrices be []<>+-,. to satiate your lust for brainfucking first
08:50:41 <Bike> "really, when you think about it, isn't < a linear operator"
08:51:01 <elliott> no im "interested" in this separately
08:58:45 <Bike> there isn't one, or else the much-cleverer-than-me people who design programming languages would have come up with one
08:59:15 <Bike> also this is a bad time for me to be thinking about how to get a holomorphic function out of a lattice/if that's even possible
08:59:38 <doesthiswork> That is a hilarious idea of linearly interpolating the results of non integer indices
08:59:53 <Bike> i bet you there's a language that actually does that shit
09:00:05 <fungot> c00kiemon5ter: feel free to write code simpler...)
09:01:38 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:ModularGroup-FundamentalDomain-01.png so high
09:04:21 <doesthiswork> speaking of wacky arrays, one thing that has fascinated me is the progression from location addressable structures (lists and arrays) to key addressable structures (p-lists hash-tables objects) to content addressable structures that when you give them a value they give you back a canonical value. (coercing a number to be within certain bounds, finding the normal form of an expression, searching a string with a regular expression)
09:04:54 <Bike> i don't think a string regex search really constitutes an addressable structure
09:06:39 <Bike> i dunno, it just intuitively doesn't seem like it
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09:07:02 <Bike> hm i guess if you have like, a string with information and... ok i see what you mean
09:07:58 <doesthiswork> I don't know if there is anything useful to this generalization. it's just a pattern I ran with
09:08:23 <Bike> an addressable structure isn't really a "thing" mathematically
09:08:47 <doesthiswork> each one can simulate a limited form of the next and simulate a slower version of the previous
09:09:08 <Bike> a multidimensional array is just a tensor, or a function Int[x,y]^n -> whatever
09:09:19 <doesthiswork> I heard of a guy who didn't know about array so stored number as prime powers
09:09:38 <Bike> gödelization is a bit different.
09:11:30 <doesthiswork> it would be fun to have arrays that only allowed you to refer to number sequences on the online encyclopedia of integer sequences
09:12:08 <doesthiswork> it would be enough for most mathematical purposes
09:12:40 <lambdabot> http://hackage.haskell.org/package/oeis
09:13:09 <Bike> with a couple functions on arrays and enough clever slicing you could make any array out of those
09:13:54 <Bike> also now i'm going to be unable to sleep because i'll be thinking about how to get a unique analytic out of an countably infinite number of points
09:13:54 <doesthiswork> and if it isn't enough you could submit it to be added
09:14:13 <Bike> oeis 799817 order numbers at my kroger job
09:15:01 <Bike> it's not actually possible, is the problem
09:15:49 <Bike> maybe it is possible if you're using gaussian integers instead but i doubt it
09:20:06 <Sgeo> "Note that the result is not in the IO monad, even though the implementation requires looking up information via the Internet."
09:20:50 <Bike> "from a practical point of view the function is referentially transparent" i love this library
09:22:25 <fizzie> > lookupSequence [1,2,5,14,42,132,429,1430,4862,16796]
09:22:28 <lambdabot> Just (OEIS {catalogNums = ["A000108","M1459","N0577"], sequenceData = [1,1,...
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09:23:04 <Bike> > extendSequence [1,2,5,14,42,132]
09:23:19 <Bike> > extendSequence [1,2,5,14,42,132]
09:23:22 <lambdabot> [1,2,5,14,42,132,429,1430,4862,16796,58786,208012,742900,2674440,9694845,35...
09:23:41 <Bike> > extendSequence [1,1,1]
09:23:54 <fizzie> > extendSequence [1,2,3,4,5] !! 20
09:23:58 <Sgeo> > extendSequence [1,1,1]
09:24:20 <Bike> that's basically my favorite oeis sequence
09:24:36 <Bike> closely followed by gnu but that's actually complicated
09:25:34 <fizzie> "There are no side effects to speak of" is nicely put.
09:26:33 <mroman> the behaviour depeends on the internet connection.
09:28:13 <doesthiswork> if the internet connection is down then the computer is practically worthless anyway
09:31:35 <fizzie> Also if OEIS is down, the computer is also practically worthless.
09:31:47 <fizzie> (Because what else would you do with a computer?)
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09:32:29 <fizzie> In fact, in many dialects the term "OEIS-looker-upper" is used in place of "computer".
09:33:40 <doesthiswork> yes, the growth in home computers is directly tied to the growth of OEIS
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09:42:54 <mroman> Without oeis how will school kids now how to count to ten?
09:44:18 <fizzie> @oeis 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,9,8
09:44:19 <lambdabot> In the number n, replace all (decimal) digits '8' by '9' and vice versa.
09:44:19 <lambdabot> [0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,9,8,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,19,18,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,2...
09:45:18 <lambdabot> Plugin `oeis' failed with: thread killed
09:45:32 <mroman> That's the most important sequence of all
09:45:43 <fizzie> @oeis 1,2,3,4,5,6,8,7,9
09:45:43 <lambdabot> Table of n-almost-primes T(n,k) (n>=0, k>0), read by antidiagonals, starting...
09:45:44 <lambdabot> [1,2,3,4,5,6,8,7,9,12,16,11,10,18,24,32,13,14,20,36,48,64,17,15,27,40,72,96,...
09:46:04 <fizzie> Aw, I was hoping for a "replace all decimal digits '7' by '8' and vice versa."
09:46:27 <mroman> 1,2,88 is the sequence of repdigits which form together with the amount of factors also a repdigit
09:46:46 <mroman> (that is, 1 has 1 divisor, 2 has 2 divisors, 88 has 8 divisors)
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09:47:58 <mroman> I'm guessing 88 is the highest such number but I was too lazy to prove it yet
09:48:03 <lambdabot> Decimal expansion of x<0 satisfying x^2+sin(x)=1.
09:48:03 <lambdabot> [1,4,0,9,6,2,4,0,0,4,0,0,2,5,9,6,2,4,9,2,3,5,5,9,3,9,7,0,5,8,9,4,9,3,5,4,7,1...
09:53:31 <mroman> is there an upper bound for divisors?
09:53:44 <mroman> except the obvious one.
09:54:58 <mroman> lower bound is probably more interesting.
10:00:26 <mroman> that is, given a number n, how many divisors does n at least contain
10:01:50 <mroman> a prime has two divisors
10:01:56 <mroman> at lesat to my definition
10:02:37 <mroman> upper bound/lower bound for |divisors(n)| is 2 if n is prime
10:02:43 <mroman> but that does not help at all
10:03:07 <doesthiswork> do you want the average number of divisors as x grows?
10:04:07 <mroman> I want an estimate of number of divisors for n
10:04:28 <mroman> where the exact number of divisors MUST be somewhere in the range
10:04:36 <mroman> it MUST NOT be outside the range.
10:06:17 <mroman> What empirical evidence suggests is that a repdigit of the form 8..8 always has 16 divisors if number of 8 > 2
10:07:07 <mroman> but that's not real evidence
10:07:15 <mroman> especially because my computational power is weak :)
10:08:45 <doesthiswork> http://terrytao.wordpress.com/2008/09/23/the-divisor-bound/
10:09:07 <mroman> also it alsways seems to be a power of 2
10:09:40 <mroman> 4,8,16,16,16,128,16,64
10:10:30 <mroman> @oies 4,8,16,16,16,128,16,64
10:10:38 <mroman> @oeis 4,8,16,16,16,128,16,64
10:11:38 <lambdabot> Plugin `oeis' failed with: thread killed
10:13:39 <Sgeo> The conatural numbers.
10:14:01 <Sgeo> People really seem to like the co- prefix
10:14:24 <Sgeo> Is there any way that "Conat"s are really "dual" to natural numbers? I mean, beyond being codata as opposed to data, I guess
10:15:21 <shachaf> coroutines are dual to routines
10:15:24 <shachaf> IN SOME CATEGORY SOMEWHERE
10:15:31 <doesthiswork> a comathmatician is a device for turning cotheorems into ffee
10:17:02 <Sgeo> `addquote <doesthiswork> a comathmatician is a device for turning cotheorems into ffee
10:17:09 <HackEgo> 966) <doesthiswork> a comathmatician is a device for turning cotheorems into ffee
10:18:28 <Sgeo> Oh, that joke's been made before
10:19:58 <mroman> !blsq '1'9r@{Sh8cb[-unps}\m><
10:20:12 <mroman> 100 microseconds is a tight timeout :)
10:22:38 <mroman> @oeis 2,4,4,6,4,8,4,8,6
10:22:48 <lambdabot> Number of cyclic subgroups of the group C_n X C_2 (where C_n is the cyclic g...
10:22:48 <lambdabot> [2,4,4,6,4,8,4,8,6,8,4,12,4,8,8,10,4,12,4,12,8,8,4,16,6,8,8,12,4,16,4,12,8,8...
10:23:05 <mroman> @oeis 2,4,4,6,4,8,4,8,6,12,8,12,8
10:25:29 <mroman> probably run for 2hours or so :)
10:26:32 <lambdabot> [2,64,2048,65536,2097152,67108864,2147483648,68719476736,2199023255552,70368...
10:31:01 <Sgeo> http://mathoverflow.net/questions/1083/do-good-math-jokes-exist/2254#2254
10:32:22 <mroman> oh btw. I'm now in possesion of 'to mock a mockingbird'
10:34:34 <shachaf> (to mock a mockingbird-mocking mockingbird) -> (to mock a mockingbird)
10:35:05 <shachaf> (mockingbird-mocking mockingbird) -> (mockingbird)
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10:40:16 <doesthiswork> I wanted more cool devices made out of combinators
10:43:06 <Slereah> Then you should check out this totally rad thing : http://esolangs.org/wiki/Lazy_Bird
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17:39:36 <FreeFull> Do you guys know what a tracker (music software) is?
17:39:57 <FreeFull> I'm thinking haskell might be a good language to write one in
17:40:18 <FreeFull> I don't know if anyone's ever written one before in haskell
17:41:59 <kmc> i don't think Haskell would be a particularly good or bad langauge for writing one
17:42:14 <FreeFull> They're often written in C or ASM
17:42:27 <Lumpio-> User interfaces in Haskell, ugh
17:42:35 <kmc> Haskell is a fine language and you can write many codes in Haskell. However, if you want to use a different language, that is OK as well.
17:42:40 <FreeFull> I guess as long as the language isn't too bad and you've got good graphics/text manipulation libraries it doesn't really matter
17:42:44 <kmc> Lumpio-: shrug
17:42:51 <kmc> gtk2hs is fine
17:43:06 <FreeFull> I would write it so that you can plug interfaces on
17:43:12 <FreeFull> And the first interface would be a textmode one
17:43:52 <FreeFull> I was at first going to write it in C, before I knew any haskell, but now I'm not sure
17:44:12 <kmc> C is a bad language for applications programming
17:44:12 <FreeFull> C seems less cumbersome for people to compile and stuff
17:44:18 <elliott> kmc: is that impression or quote
17:44:31 <kmc> yes if you use any language other than C, or use any libraries with C other than libc, users will hate you
17:44:40 <kmc> it's expected that each C project will implement all data structures from scratch
17:44:47 <FreeFull> Lumpio-: Probably would use some library for audio output or write my own library
17:44:53 <kmc> this i think actually explains much of the popularity of hash tables
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17:45:08 <kmc> there are tree-shaped structures which are comparably nice
17:45:13 <kmc> but they are harder to reimplement from scratch
17:45:14 <FreeFull> kmc: You could always include the libraries with the project
17:45:17 <kmc> and C doesn't do code reuse
17:45:23 <kmc> FreeFull: then distros yell at you
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17:46:17 <FreeFull> C doesn't have any functional niceties either
17:46:22 <FreeFull> The best you get is function pointers
17:46:28 <kmc> elliott: impression
17:47:01 <kmc> of course C programmers turn reimplementing all datastructures into a virtue
17:47:10 <kmc> it's how you show that you're H4RDC0RE
17:47:24 <kmc> and of course everyone else's datastructures are shit
17:48:23 <FreeFull> Have fun debugging where your code involving dealing with multiple layers of pointers went wrong
17:49:29 <tromp_> at least it doesn't take much C to implement a purely functional language:)
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17:53:02 <Gregor> “Les Misérables: Hugh Jackman delivers a star turn as Lester Misérables, the fanciest barber in Paris”
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18:00:14 <kmc> it's almost like Haskell is a programming language and not some kind of mathematical rhetorical arguing device
18:07:44 <tromp_> Haskell can prescribe output to be performed by the runtime system
18:09:23 <kmc> haskell: a pretty cool guy?
18:11:36 <kmc> the execution semantics of IO actions are just as much part of the language standard "Haskell" as the evaluation semantics of lambdas and pattern matching
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18:12:45 <kmc> they are separated in a principled way rather than muddled together like every other language
18:12:54 <kmc> but people should stop trying to disown the former
18:12:59 <kmc> cause imperative programming in Haskell is nice
18:13:23 <kmc> this meme that Haskell is all about uncompromising purity is really dumb
18:14:21 <Slereah> I don't think any big language is about purity
18:14:35 <Slereah> The really pure ones are always either academic or esoteric
18:15:25 <Gregor> There are probably some pure DSLs.
18:15:36 <kmc> "pure" is just a term that generates more heat than light
18:15:48 <kmc> Haskell function evaluation is free of side effects, but it has another thing that does effects
18:15:51 <kmc> does this mean it's pure? who cares
18:16:09 <Gregor> Slereah: Domain-Specific Language.
18:16:15 <mroman> people using unsafePerformIO certainly not .
18:16:38 <kmc> yeah there's that too
18:16:48 <kmc> people break the "purity" rules all the time to get shit done
18:17:30 <Slereah> I bet those guys care about purity : http://radified.com/gfx6/sicp_cover2.jpg
18:17:34 <kmc> it's a good programming language
18:17:38 <Slereah> If it is not pure, the magic doesn't work
18:17:41 <mroman> sometimes you do stuff without IO Monad
18:17:52 <kmc> it's not a fucking mathematical object from the platonic realm
18:17:53 <mroman> and then suddently you need some state in a function
18:17:57 <mroman> or read a file or whatever
18:17:58 <kmc> end-of-rant
18:18:16 <mroman> either you rewrite the hole thing or saÿ "fuck it, i'll try unsef"
18:18:17 <kmc> i am so easy to troll
18:18:42 <Slereah> http://books.gentoomen.org/wizard.jpg
18:20:54 <mroman> http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/35250381.jpg <- like that
18:20:58 <kmc> gentoo men...
18:21:11 <kmc> mroman: yes
18:39:13 <FreeFull> mroman: Why are you writing such a huge function
18:42:47 <mroman> FreeFull: You gonna have to supply me more context
18:44:32 <olsner> http://joaopizani.hopto.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/recursive_cats.gif
18:45:44 <olsner> it's a bit pointful though ... fix (cat:)?
18:45:57 <FreeFull> mroman: If you were writing smaller functions, adding state or whatever wouldn't be difficult
18:47:17 <FreeFull> Give me a concrete example of what sort of code you'd write
18:47:19 <mroman> if you have function a which calls b which calls c which calls d which calls e which calls f
18:47:28 <mroman> and f is not Int but IO Int now.
18:47:48 <mroman> that means a,b,c,d,e, all land in IO too
18:47:51 <FreeFull> Give me a concrete code example
18:48:14 <mroman> every function calling an IO function has to be in IO too
18:48:34 <mroman> I don't need a concrete example for that.
18:48:58 <FreeFull> You can do debugging without any monads, if that's what you're embedding IO in for
18:49:13 <mroman> I'm awary of Debug.Trace
18:49:23 <FreeFull> I want example of code where that would need embedding a monad suddenly so deep in
18:49:27 <mroman> Debug.Trace uses unsafePerformIO actually ;)
18:49:34 <olsner> I'd say the problem is that you're trying to add side-effects to something five levels deep in the first place, not that it's painful to do so
18:49:44 <kmc> there's no such thing as an "IO function"
18:50:00 <kmc> it's a pure function that returns an IO action
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18:50:14 <mroman> olsner: That's the problem yeah.
18:50:28 <mroman> But still, it would be trivial in most imperative languages
18:50:39 <kmc> the "IO function" analogy is pretty bad and breaks down for a lot of things, like IO Int -> Int, IO (Int -> Int), or IO (IO Int)
18:50:58 <FreeFull> Yes, it would be trivial, and it could very easily lead to buggy code that messes around with state without one of the programmers knowing
18:51:10 <FreeFull> And then it's a pain to understand and fix if it breaks
18:51:35 <mroman> https://github.com/FMNSSun/Burlesque/blob/master/Burlesque/Eval.hs
18:51:40 <kmc> the nice thing about imperative state in Haskell is that, even if code is an IO action, it can't manipulate any IORef unless it was passed that ref
18:51:50 <mroman> let's say I want to add a builtin that reads a file
18:51:59 <mroman> also I would like to add some registers instead of just passing a stack
18:52:03 <FreeFull> kmc: You can't have an IO Int -> Int without unsafePerformIO or something equivalent to const value, right?
18:52:16 <mroman> (I don't want to do that, but I if would do it
18:52:21 <mroman> it's going to be a nightmare to do so)
18:52:43 <kmc> FreeFull: well you can imagine other primitives that are neither of those
18:52:49 <kmc> like "count the number of (>>=)s in this IO action"
18:53:03 <kmc> the point is, the IO action is a data structure that can be manipulated without performing IO
18:53:04 <mroman> the problem is that the code for map/filter so much depend on only passing a stack
18:53:10 <mroman> this is not really haskell's fault
18:53:21 <mroman> but my fault not to write code I can hack I/O in later.
18:53:23 <FreeFull> I can see IO (IO Int), m (m a) isn't that uncommon
18:53:41 <kmc> IO actions returning functions are also very useful
18:54:11 <FreeFull> mroman: mapM or mapM_ might be useful to you if you're mapping over a list of monadic values
18:55:25 <kmc> my 'spawn' library has pool :: Int -> IO (IO a -> IO a)
18:55:42 <kmc> "Given n, produces a function to wrap IO actions. No more than n wrapped actions will be in progress at one time."
18:56:09 <kmc> in many languages you would explicitly return a data structure representing a semaphore or something
18:56:20 <kmc> but in Haskell it's natural to close over all those implementation details
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18:57:05 <FreeFull> mroman: I think you might be able to change BlsqState's definition to use StateT IO and not have stuff break, not sure though
18:57:11 <FreeFull> kmc: Do you think that'd work?
18:57:24 <kmc> what would?
18:58:36 <FreeFull> Changing BlsqState from State BlsqStack () to StateT BlsqStack IO ()
18:58:52 <kmc> i have no idea
18:58:55 <kmc> not having looked at the code
19:01:38 <Sgeo> "Junk snack food (chips/crisps) doesn't actually taste good. It's only 'enjoyable' (and I use that word with skepticism) because consumerism has force-fed you it for so long, developing your 'taste' for it through advertising and social pressure."
19:02:01 * Sgeo is quite skeptical about that claim
19:02:30 <kmc> taste is subjective
19:02:44 <kmc> sometimes health nuts convince themselves that junk food tastes bad
19:02:45 <olsner> Sgeo: have you tried eating with a tin foil hat on? it really does change the experience
19:03:28 <kmc> i would say that the junk food companies do develop the product through advertising and social pressure but also through extremely careful engineering to make it tasty as hell
19:03:29 <Sgeo> Potato chips are salty, and salt tends to taste good, which used to make good sense for our bodies.
19:03:52 <FreeFull> Sgeo: I like the flavouring too, salted potatoes on their own are quite dull
19:03:52 <kmc> there was a NYT article about this recently but I am too lazy to read it or find the link
19:04:35 <Sgeo> I should eat something, I felt really weird and horrible waking up and don't know if I'm sick or if I just really haven't been eating enough
19:04:53 <kmc> it's also amusing when people tell you that junk food is horrible, but the same amount of fat/salt/whatever is wonderful as long as it's all expensive local organic ingredients
19:05:42 <kmc> Sgeo: weird / horrible in what way?
19:05:52 <kmc> and how much have you been eating?
19:06:18 <kmc> what do you have to ask Phantom__Hoover
19:06:57 <Phantom__Hoover> it was something to do with the way you're always complaining about other people's opinons
19:07:15 <kmc> hey sgeo started it
19:08:42 <olsner> (opinions are charged opinons)
19:09:44 <olsner> somewhere in the world, there ought be someone who mispronounces opinion like that
19:10:01 <Sgeo> Phantom__Hoover, I didn't eat the entire box of pasta last night, and don't think I had breakfast yesterday
19:10:23 <olsner> not eating the entire box of paste is normal
19:10:41 <Phantom__Hoover> but like i said, if you're not feeling well eating more is a sensible thing to do
19:12:38 <Sgeo> kmc, I woke up feeling like I was trying to vomit but couldn't. Was difficult to catch my breath. Stomach felt hungry too
19:13:02 <olsner> "stomach felt hungry" usually means you should eat
19:13:53 <Phantom__Hoover> i get the sense that Sgeo is basically trying to ignore every basic bodily instinct
19:14:57 <olsner> Phantom__Hoover: maybe it's one of these things where an alien assumes human form and has trouble figuring out how the body works
19:15:43 <Phantom__Hoover> maybe his dad made him go to farmingdale because if he went to a good university he'd be noticed and dissected?!
19:16:24 <olsner> actually the whole of farmingdale is populated by aliens disguised as farmers
19:16:37 <Sgeo> Phantom__Hoover, my skin does reflect green light.
19:16:50 <Sgeo> It reflects other light, but green light too.
19:17:19 <Phantom__Hoover> the aliens were like "pick the two farmingest words in the earthlings' tongue!"
19:19:31 <Bike> no one will believe a place called "farmingdale" actually exists
19:19:31 <lambdabot> Bike: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
19:19:44 <Bike> elliott: imo yes
19:20:06 <Bike> "are you dead"
19:20:49 <olsner> some sort of accidental genius there ... normal people would go to farmingdale, find it full of farmers, and then leave ASAP
19:20:53 <olsner> reminds me of http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_libgu78N3U1qdep4ro1_500.png
19:21:45 <olsner> Phantom__Hoover: sure it is
19:22:09 <Phantom__Hoover> i should've known your swedishness would shine through eventually
19:26:11 <Sgeo> Should I risk going back to sleep?
19:26:53 <Phantom__Hoover> if you're that ill you should probably actually get medical attention
19:27:10 <Phantom__Hoover> rather than asking for it in a channel full of computer scientists
19:28:55 <olsner> fungot: do you know anything about sleep?
19:28:55 <fungot> olsner: i dont know what that " code; 00000000 before first symbol" means, surely 0 is before any of the fnord
19:31:14 <kmc> Sgeo: are you worried that you will die
19:31:50 <Sgeo> Not really, although it does make me worried that the sensation was unfamiliar
19:32:27 <kmc> what is the risk of sleeping?
19:33:23 <Sgeo> The risk of having to feel that sensation again when I wake up?
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19:39:56 <kmc> you feel bad specifically on waking and not in general?
19:40:37 <kmc> fungot: what should Sgeo do
19:40:38 <fungot> kmc: don't quit your day job"). this is a little stranger, because it just copies between on gc.
19:45:53 <Sgeo> kmc, still feel a little bad, but not as terrible as I did when I woke up
19:48:18 <Sgeo> Does 2 pop-tarts count as a reasonable amount?
19:48:34 <olsner> if you fast for too long it'll take a while for the stomach to get used to food again
19:48:46 <Gregor> "Pop-tart" and "reasonable" do not belong in the same sentence.
19:49:30 <olsner> Sgeo: those pop-tarts will be gone quite soon and you will become hungry again (at this time, eat)
19:49:33 <Sgeo> I wasn't fasting at any point.
19:49:50 <Sgeo> Just... not eating enough, perhaps
19:50:48 <olsner> maybe all those calls from mom asking whether I'm eating properly weren't quite as pointless as I thought
19:51:19 <Gregor> I've been eating twigs and clay for three weeks!
19:51:21 <Sgeo> I'll have two more pop-tarts soon
19:51:57 <olsner> you can't live on pop-tarts
19:52:42 <Sgeo> I can have pasta and cheese for dinner like always
19:52:58 <Gregor> Do you eat any protein whatsoever?
19:53:38 <Sgeo> Doesn't cheese have some protein?
19:53:53 <Sgeo> Also, I do sometimes eat chicken sandwiches, though not as frequently as when I was in college
19:54:14 <Gregor> Life is made of protein, everything that's food has SOME protein, that's not really the same as eating a chickpea salad though.
19:54:48 <olsner> Sgeo: cheese has some protein, but most likely not enough to live on if you just have a little bit of cheese on pasta
19:55:12 <Sgeo> Maybe I should get Chinese food tonight?
19:55:38 <boily> Sgeo: chinese food is always a good idea.
19:55:51 <Gregor> I'm so glad that Sgeo exists to make me feel like I'm good at life management by comparison.
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20:10:05 <olsner> I'm feeling a bit guilty about wasting my life management skills by not cooking actual food as often as I could, though
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20:15:01 <lambdabot> mroman said 5h 33m 21s ago: I got it down to 19B : ,1 9r@{8cb[-}\m><p^
20:15:01 <lambdabot> mroman said 5h 29m 58s ago: Now reading the logs that's your ro solution
20:16:29 <oerjan> why 8? i thought the question used 4
20:20:50 <oerjan> @tell mroman Um that looks like mine with 8 instead of 4 and an extra p^ at the end, how is that shorter?
20:22:03 <oerjan> @tell mroman or do you mean the actual anagolf versions were slightly different (longer and with final formatting)?
20:33:12 <oerjan> @tell mroman an 8...8 repdigit always has 4 times the number of divisors of the corresponding 1...1 repdigit. similar rules for 2...2, 4...4 and 5...5 since their digit can have no common prime factor with 1...1.
20:36:13 <oerjan> > [gcd ((10^n-1)`div`9) 81 | n <- [1..]]
20:36:15 <lambdabot> [1,1,3,1,1,3,1,1,9,1,1,3,1,1,3,1,1,9,1,1,3,1,1,3,1,1,27,1,1,3,1,1,3,1,1,9,1...
20:37:25 <oerjan> > gcd 111111111111111111111111111 81
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20:39:09 <oerjan> @tell mroman <mroman> also it alsways seems to be a power of 2 <-- it fails with 9 8's hth :P (this is because that has factor 27 but not 81)
20:39:31 <oerjan> @tell mroman er *9 but not 27
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20:49:21 <cuttlefish> CYQB 222000Z 07007KT 20SM BKN021 BKN120 M03/M06 A3040 RMK SC5AC0 SLP299
20:51:10 <fungot> olsner: mainly because it supports both left- and right- recursion. the first variable with a state not completely linked bug? how lame.
20:51:23 <fungot> olsner: i beat you :-p thanks for the hint then
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20:53:04 <oerjan> `addquote <kmc> it's almost like Haskell is a programming language and not some kind of mathematical rhetorical arguing device
20:53:14 <HackEgo> 967) <kmc> it's almost like Haskell is a programming language and not some kind of mathematical rhetorical arguing device
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20:54:43 <Sgeo> Dad might be bringing me some protein-y foods tonight
20:54:49 <Sgeo> hamburger or chicken
20:54:54 <Sgeo> Or possibly Chinese food
20:54:55 <kmc> beef jerky
20:55:16 <Slereah> All life forms are made of proteins
20:56:07 <Sgeo> Well, some foods might have more protein per ... something?
20:57:38 <Slereah> Pepper comes from a plant!
20:57:48 <kmc> i wonder if the co-op market will sell me organic salt
20:57:53 <kmc> MSG is like organic salt :D
20:58:00 <Slereah> Also some foods are made from lifeform-based products, but are not made of them
20:58:14 <Sgeo> salt + carbon?
20:58:27 <Sgeo> (re. organic salt0
20:58:34 <kmc> i ate a huge greasy chinese food meal and now i feel gross, it must be the MSG and not the fact that I ate a huge greasy meal
20:58:56 <boily> in fact, msg is slightly less worse for your health than salt.
20:59:13 <Slereah> I think the whole MSG scare was from some study about like
20:59:24 <Slereah> Inhumane doses of MSG in rats or something like that
20:59:34 <boily> it's only when your daily intake is larger than 5 grams that you get nasty symptoms, like: headaches, dehydration, stiff neck, bat hallucinations...
21:00:05 <kmc> we can't stop here!
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21:02:26 <Sgeo> bat hallucinations?
21:02:28 -!- doesthiswork has joined.
21:03:40 <boily> Sgeo: not "hallucinations", but "hallucinations...". the ellipsis is important.
21:04:41 <olsner> Slereah: I think there was also a bunch of people claiming to get sick from MSG in chinese restaurants
21:05:50 -!- zzo38 has joined.
21:07:58 <boily> a vicious cycle of msg overabundance, where insubstantial bats were eaten by cats you were about to eat.
21:08:53 <oerjan> olsner: i vaguely recall some of those getting busted when they were given some other kind of food that actually had more MSG
21:09:01 <Slereah> http://uploads.ungrounded.net/579000/579288_batcat.swf
21:09:38 <oerjan> also, triangle and robert.
21:10:08 <boily> fungot: bats and bad cats and triangles and roberts.
21:10:09 <fungot> boily: they're usually padded too, i think. :( i'd really not fancy restarting it. i got paid for all sorts of undefined things like that
21:10:41 <olsner> oerjan: yeah, afaik it was never confirmed that there was anything at all there except people getting paranoid and imagining stuff
21:12:05 <zzo38> What I did with temporal logic before is wrong but now I should do it better way. type family Next (x :: *) :: *; data Globally x = Globally x (Globally (Next x)); data Future x = Now x | Later (Future (Next x)); I think this is better?
21:13:13 <lambdabot> mroman: You have 5 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
21:13:18 <lambdabot> oerjan said 52m 28s ago: Um that looks like mine with 8 instead of 4 and an extra p^ at the end, how is that shorter?
21:13:18 <lambdabot> oerjan said 51m 14s ago: or do you mean the actual anagolf versions were slightly different (longer and with final formatting)?
21:13:18 <lambdabot> oerjan said 40m 5s ago: an 8...8 repdigit always has 4 times the number of divisors of the corresponding 1...1 repdigit. similar rules for 2...2, 4...4 and 5...5 since their digit can have no common
21:13:18 <lambdabot> oerjan said 34m 9s ago: <mroman> also it alsways seems to be a power of 2 <-- it fails with 9 8's hth :P (this is because that has factor 27 but not 81)
21:13:20 <lambdabot> oerjan said 33m 47s ago: er *9 but not 27
21:13:36 <mroman> p^ pushes all elements of a list to the stack
21:13:47 <mroman> and the interpreter prints remaining elements linewise
21:14:01 <mroman> and the anagol version requires up to 8 digits, yes
21:14:13 <mroman> but 8 digits timed out on blsqbot
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21:15:07 <oerjan> mroman: btw when the prime factorization of a number is p_1^k_1*p_2^k_2*...*p_n^k_n, the number of divisors is sum k_i + n
21:15:50 <oerjan> *product_{i=1}^n (k_i + 1)
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21:17:17 <mroman> that's the amount of non divisors
21:17:23 <oerjan> no that is a different product. they are both multiplicative functions, meaning you can split them by prime factors
21:18:10 <mroman> Isn't n - phi(n) the number of divisors then?
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21:18:35 <mroman> then I've mixed something up
21:19:02 <oerjan> it's the number of non-coprime numbers, but e.g. 8 is not coprime to 12 but still isn't a divisor
21:19:26 <Taneb> Today I saw X-Men 2
21:19:36 <wareya> So I happened to see <= put into an xml string, which is <=, and I was like, what if that were a legit way of "or"ing boolean operators
21:19:42 <Taneb> In a room where both Patrick Stewart and Ian McKellan have been in at the same time
21:19:48 <Taneb> (as eachother, not with me)
21:20:18 <oerjan> as _eachother_? sounds freaky.
21:21:34 <mroman> my machine went to sleep
21:21:51 -!- blsqbot has joined.
21:22:13 <blsqbot> Ain't nobody got time fo' dat!
21:25:29 <mroman> I probably should have invested more time into factors :)
21:25:49 <blsqbot> Ain't nobody got time fo' dat!
21:27:31 <blsqbot> Ain't nobody got time fo' dat!
21:27:32 <oerjan> mroman: i find it weird that the printing times are nearly the same regardless of whether it times out or not.
21:27:57 <mroman> They are pretty useless
21:28:18 <mroman> The actual program is allowed to run 100 microsecond
21:28:40 <mroman> the time shown is start interpreter + run time
21:28:45 <mroman> blsqbot please do quit
21:28:45 -!- blsqbot has quit (Quit: Exiting).
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21:36:51 <mroman> !blsq {{1 0}{0 1}}{{1 0}{1 0}}mm
21:37:00 <mroman> !blsq {{1 0}{0 1}}{{1 0}{1 0}}mmSP
21:38:22 <mroman> !blsq {{-5 6}{6 -5}}1 11.0?/?/
21:38:22 <blsqbot> {{-55.0 66.0} {66.0 -55.0}}
21:38:31 <mroman> !blsq {{-5 6}{6 -5}}1 11.0?/?*
21:38:31 <blsqbot> {{-0.4545454545454546 0.5454545454545454} {0.5454545454545454 -0.454545454545454
21:38:42 <mroman> !blsq {{-5 6}{6 -5}}1 11.0?/?*{{5 6}{6 5}}mm
21:38:42 <blsqbot> {{0.9999999999999996 -4.440892098500626e-16} {-4.440892098500626e-16 0.999999999
21:38:55 <mroman> Damn you limited precision!
21:39:38 <mroman> blsqbot please do quit
21:39:38 -!- blsqbot has quit (Quit: Exiting).
21:39:45 <mroman> lemme fix that stupid scientific notation
21:39:53 <Taneb> > cosh 6 ^ 2 - sinh 6 ^ 2
21:40:06 <Taneb> > cosh 2 ^ 2 - sinh 2 ^ 2
21:41:04 <boily> > cosh 3.14 ^ 2 - sinh 3.14 ^ 2
21:41:22 <boily> > cosh 3.1415926535 ^ 2 - sinh 3.1415926535 ^ 2
21:42:07 <Taneb> "Their last Tory MP, Stephen Milligan, died from auto-asphyxiation while wearing stockings and suspenders in 1994."
21:42:26 <Taneb> boily, cosh^2 a - sinh^2 a == 1
21:42:29 <zzo38> What is the English ordinal form of fractions?
21:42:54 <boily> Taneb: as is cos^2 a + sin^2 a.
21:43:29 <Bike> zzo38: 4/5 -> the four-fifths-th
21:44:23 <boily> ordinals of an integer divided by 12: twelfthsths?
21:45:04 <doesthiswork> taneb we were always told to make absolutely sure that our auto erotic asphyxiation apparatus released the pressure if you went unconscious
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21:45:20 <Taneb> doesthiswork, this was 1994
21:45:54 <Taneb> He was using an orange
21:46:30 <boily> couldn't he just, you know, bite into it?
21:47:27 -!- boily has quit (Quit: la réponse à cette question, dans le prochain épisode!).
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21:47:41 <mroman> !blsq {{-5 6}{6 -5}}1 11.0?/?*{{5 6}{6 5}}mm
21:47:41 <blsqbot> {{0.9999999999999996 -4.440892098500626e-16} {-4.440892098500626e-16 0.999999999
21:48:03 <mroman> !blsq {{-5 6}{6 -5}}1 11.0?/?*{{5 6}{6 5}}3r_
21:48:03 <blsqbot> {{ERROR: Burlesque: (r_) Invalid arguments! 3 5 ERROR: Burlesque: (r_) Invalid a
21:48:24 <mroman> !blsq {{-5 6}{6 -5}}1 11.0?/?*{{5 6}{6 5}}mm3r_
21:48:33 <mroman> blsqbot please do quit
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21:50:31 <mroman> !blsq {{-5 6}{6 -5}}1 11.0?/?*{{5 6}{6 5}}mm
21:50:31 <blsqbot> {{0.9999999999999996 -0.0000000000000004440892098500626} {-0.0000000000000004440
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21:52:14 <HackEgo> yhojeyisaac: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
21:52:14 <mroman> He only comes back when you say please come back
21:52:15 <Taneb> `WELCOME yhojeyisaac
21:52:17 <HackEgo> YHOJEYISAAC: WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE DESIGN AND DEPLOYMENT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: HTTP://ESOLANGS.ORG/WIKI/MAIN_PAGE. (FOR THE OTHER KIND OF ESOTERICA, TRY #ESOTERIC ON IRC.DAL.NET.)
21:52:54 <doesthiswork> that is an amusing variation on the welcome command
21:53:46 <zzo38> The wiki does not accept the uppercase URL though
21:54:02 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: wElCOme: not found
21:54:28 <HackEgo> yhojeyisaac: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
21:54:29 <Taneb> elliott, fix it plz
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21:57:09 <kmc> UK just lost its AAA Moody's bond rating
21:57:12 <kmc> welcome to the club, UK
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21:58:36 <mroman> BEER in German is actually Bier.
21:59:53 <kmc> @yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw
22:00:51 <olsner> @yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw
22:01:25 <mroman> funktion multipliziärDäScheiss(schtring a, schtring b) { intetschär ai = alsIntetschär(a); intetschär bi = alsIntetschär(b); retörn ai mol bi; }
22:02:43 <kmc> @yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw
22:02:43 <Bike> shit, now i want to see schönhage-strassen's algorithm written out in german
22:03:08 <kmc> Stönehenge-Strassen
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22:15:20 <oerjan> mroman: that translates as multiplyDatShit, right?
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22:58:45 <oerjan> > let qualified = 1 in qualified
23:01:44 <oerjan> > let (as,hiding) = (1,2) in (as,hiding)
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23:14:15 <oerjan> i wonder why he keeps coming back when it's pretty clear no one here speaks spanish
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23:35:43 <DHeadshot> If any of you like me spent your childhood playing the old Apogee/id DOS games (Commander Keen, Duke Nukem, Doom, Quake, Castle Wolfenstein 3D etc...), please consider backing the Kickstarter for a new game by legendary developer (of those games and more) Tom Hall! http://t.co/INXxTVj3Bp
23:36:42 <zzo38> Kickstarter is only for US and UK and I live at Canada so I won't.
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23:38:41 <Sgeo> `echo but you forgot the most important thing of all
23:38:42 <HackEgo> but you forgot the most important thing of all
23:38:52 <olsner> zzo38: why do you say "at" Canada? I thought it was supposed to be "in" Canada?
23:39:18 <Sgeo> I live on America
23:39:29 <olsner> (except to fill oerjan with mystery, that is)
23:41:27 <kmc> I live on, America
23:42:30 * kmc habla un poquito de español
23:43:06 <kmc> donde está la biblioteca
23:44:15 <Sgeo> http://www.reddit.com/r/netsec/comments/190i3u/hdcp_is_now_completely_useless_generate_your_own/
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23:44:32 <olsner> looks easy enough, maybe I should learn some spanish some day
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23:46:52 <oerjan> huh Data.Sequence doesn't use much more space than lists, and sometimes less...
23:50:32 <Bike> @src Data.Sequence
23:50:33 <lambdabot> Source not found. I can't hear you -- I'm using the scrambler.
23:51:10 <lambdabot> http://darcs.haskell.org/packages/containers/Data/Sequence.hs
23:51:21 <oerjan> that's pretty bitrotten link
23:52:18 <oerjan> http://lambda.haskell.org/platform/doc/current/ghc-doc/libraries/containers-0.4.2.1/Data-Sequence.html