00:01:04 (fmap f . flip) f g x = fmap f (flip f) g x = (f . flip f) g x = f (flip f g) x... it still doesn't make much sense 00:01:09 i'm going to bed 00:07:19 -!- epicmonkey has joined. 00:10:58 -!- nooodl has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 00:11:46 bye nodl 00:12:33 ZipLists are so verbose to use :( 00:12:48 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 00:23:46 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night). 00:26:21 -!- lmt has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:31:25 Phantom_Hoover, after I finish this last episode of Space Cadets, I'll go watch another episode of Farscape. How's PMMM coming? 00:37:06 Kind of weird to think a hoax saved someone's life 00:37:13 (As in, the guy who gave up smoking) 00:40:22 calling that life-saving is a little rich... 00:42:54 it's life-prolonging, on average 00:43:24 -!- hagb4rd has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 00:45:57 Sgeo, i liked the part where she used the magic 00:48:48 there's an amusing irony in your fake answers 00:49:13 since eventually one realizes that the whole point of madoka magica is that she can't be allowed to use the magic 00:49:21 those are fake blocks again aren't they. 00:49:26 you're not going to fool me this time. 00:49:26 (no, they're real) 00:49:30 NO DON'T DO IT ELLIOTT 00:49:38 its ok i /cleared anyway 00:49:43 phew 00:49:48 XD 00:49:50 silly 00:49:52 it is like a reflex when i see spoiler markings of any sort 00:49:55 i scroll as fast as i can 00:50:24 Mmm, Mahō Shōjo Madoka Magika. Good series. 00:50:46 Fiora, er, my answers are simply ahead of their time 00:52:49 Fiora, (my impression of this series is that it is a brilliant deconstruction of a genre to which i have never been exposed) 00:52:52 (is this accurate) 00:53:06 (haha, deconstruction) 00:53:13 maybe a little? but not really 00:53:21 fwiw, I haven't really had exposure to the genre in question myself 00:53:29 dammit 00:53:35 i was using that as an excuse 00:53:50 it's a wonderful self-contained story that you don't need to watch anything else to enjoy 00:53:50 i'll have to fall back on 'animes are for little girls and gay' 00:54:04 but the gay is one of the best reasons to watch it :< 00:54:13 excuse status: annihilated 00:54:17 that's like "I won't eat the cake because of the wonderfully tasty fudge chocolate" 00:54:33 Phantom_Hoover: Are you suggesting that gay is bad? 00:54:42 it's gay 00:54:44 i think he's suggesting that he's being silly 00:54:52 Each time you say that I will fuck a man. 00:54:54 :P 00:55:06 is the man hot 00:55:07 gay gay gay gay gay gay gay 00:55:15 Bike: Well yes. I have some taste. 00:55:24 *echm* Bow chicka wow wow 00:55:27 good, good 00:55:34 surely i can say 'gay' faster than you can fuck a man 00:55:37 what you have to realise is that Phantom_Hoover is too busy insulting bf derivatives on his incredibly popular blog 00:55:41 to do anything else whatsoever 00:55:49 essentially true 00:55:54 Phantom_Hoover: Sounds like it's gonna be quite an orgy. 00:55:56 i can still say gay though! 00:55:59 in fact he outsources his IRC presence. we're not talking to the real phantom hoover 00:56:06 Should I feel insulted that Braintrust hasn't been insulted? 00:56:18 * Sgeo slaps self for blatant obsessivism 00:56:31 less talk, more farscape 00:56:50 in fact the real PH hasn't even seen farscape. it's just that 2/3rds of his 3-person IRC team really like it 00:58:23 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 00:58:26 we tried putting it in the corner of his screen while he was writing screeds about bf derivatives 00:58:56 results so far have been inconclusive but promising trends have been noted in his writing style 00:59:18 kinda ruining my immersion here phantom hoover 00:59:26 Phantom_Hoover is kind of like the martin luther of esolangs 00:59:30 note that I know almost nothing about martin luther 00:59:31 i need to believe i'm really on the same IRC channel as the incredibly popular phantom hoover 00:59:35 other than that he was probably kind of a drag to be around 00:59:36 he was really anti semitic 00:59:48 look man 00:59:52 on a scale of "pretty cool" to "hitler" what would you say your opinion on jews is 00:59:54 i would have no problem with the jews 01:00:01 if they would stop making bf derivatives 01:00:02 that's not on the scale 01:00:12 if you answer hitler does that mean you think jews are as good as hitler 01:00:20 because i'm not sure that is actually possible 01:00:24 Phantom_Hoover is actually a committee?? 01:00:26 i don't think hitler made any bf derivatives 01:00:29 kmc, no 01:00:31 no kmc 01:00:39 i'm just part of his pr team 01:00:45 well i guess if you're like 01:00:45 an antisemite who really hates moustaches 01:01:01 -!- hagb4rd has joined. 01:01:10 he still has executive control 01:01:18 elliott, what if you hate hitler for ruining antisemitism 01:01:31 that... 01:01:34 is probably an opinion someone atcually has 01:03:46 * ais523 agrees with elliott 01:04:01 thanks ais523. 01:04:04 your support means a lot to me. 01:06:11 elliott: well sometimes I ask for yours 01:06:19 e.g. when I'm not sure I have the right opinion 01:07:05 or when I'm failing to understand Haskell as usual 01:12:09 -!- aloril has joined. 01:13:03 -!- lmt has joined. 01:14:16 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 01:25:16 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has joined. 01:45:06 -!- Arc_Koen has quit (Quit: The struct held his beloved integer in his strong, protecting arms, his eyes like sapphire orbs staring into her own. "W-will you... Will you union me?"). 01:51:56 -!- tromp__ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 02:38:19 Time to watch ep 6 of Farscape 02:38:49 "Thank God It's Friday. Again." sounds time travelley 02:41:02 -!- ais523 has quit. 02:46:24 -!- Jafet has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 02:47:10 I found my glasses. It's nice having depth perception. 02:49:58 elliott: Are you kidding? That's great! 02:50:10 I have no idea what you're referencing 02:50:13 but maybe?? 02:50:15 elliott, is this a decent guide? http://www.reddit.com/r/buildapc/comments/f3efg 02:50:19 Yes, it's indeed?? 02:51:57 elliott: You really don't want to mention it to edwardk? 02:52:12 oh. 02:52:18 do you really want more inscrutable lens type errors? 02:53:30 do you have to ask 02:53:54 Sgeo: sure 02:53:58 shachaf: yes 02:54:32 imo distribute is much better than current (??) 02:54:34 less ad-hoc 03:02:09 shachaf: except Distributive just means "isomorphic to (k ->) for some k" 03:02:19 Right. 03:02:24 The point is that you're not making up a new type. 03:02:24 it's kind of ad-hoc 03:02:36 Dstributive already exists, and this is just a new name for it. 03:02:52 maybe the infix should be in distributive instead. 03:03:02 and lens should just depend on it for one stupid function so it can reexport it. 03:03:03 Wait, isn't that Representable? 03:05:51 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 03:06:22 -!- copumpkin has joined. 03:18:21 -!- monqy has joined. 03:19:02 `welcome monqy 03:19:04 monqy: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) 03:19:19 dal?? really shachaf???? 03:19:20 ??hi 03:19:33 `? dalnet 03:19:34 Bike: WHAT 03:19:35 dalnet? ¯\(°_o)/¯ 03:28:17 wtf hown did I fail to recognize that symbol until Crichton said it? 03:28:36 hown 03:34:33 what symvol 03:34:36 *symbol 03:42:58 The Peacekeeper symbol 03:43:17 oh you're at that bit 03:43:45 fun fact, that symbol is based on a work of bolshevik propaganda 03:43:57 they just removed a few extraneous triangles 03:44:06 (apparently the russians are very inspired by triangles) 03:44:33 I finished the episode 03:51:12 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 04:00:35 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 04:01:05 -!- copumpkin has joined. 04:08:30 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has joined. 04:10:21 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:11:22 -!- Jafet has joined. 04:23:55 Is /r/buildapcforme generally good? 04:38:37 `welcome Bike 04:38:38 Bike: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) 04:38:55 heyyyyy 04:39:14 you going anywhere tonight, elliott? let's say you and me hit up the clubs and then awkwardly fuck 04:39:15 `bike welcome 04:39:17 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: bike: not found 04:39:24 :< 04:39:31 how many hookups has #esoteric facilitate 04:39:39 going to guess somewhere in the region of 0 04:39:44 0 ± 1 04:39:45 it's not so much a hookup as it is a fuckup 04:40:03 if not hookups can we at least, like, ship people? 04:40:09 elliott x kmc otp or something 04:40:51 is everyone in this channel gay 04:41:07 lmt x banning people 04:41:07 I don't think even most of us are gay. 04:41:40 wow 04:41:48 you guys are behind the times 04:42:07 more like BEHIND the times 04:42:13 (anal) 04:42:15 haha, butts 04:42:21 Mmm, butts. 04:42:23 always a good joke, butts 04:42:35 always... the butt of a joke 04:44:43 you are all silly 04:45:43 im serious 04:58:19 My sister is a big fan of "shipping", apparently. 05:00:30 Does she help with your cosplays 05:02:02 She doesn't like that comic, I don't think. 05:03:29 Oh hey HackEgo's fixed 05:04:20 lmt: But yeah. Sadly I'm only, like, half-gay. 05:06:21 * Sgeo is either straight or mostly straight 05:06:34 I think 05:07:16 Have you tried fucking a dude? Or like, let's be imaginative, a horse. Just to check. 05:07:54 Rather sure it doesn't work that way. 05:08:00 But if it does... 05:08:05 How *you* doin'? ;) 05:08:21 Bike truly has a way with words. 05:08:27 are you a horse pikhq 05:08:52 Bike: No. 05:08:55 I wish I could choose my sexuality. Would choose to either be bisexual or asexual. 05:09:02 Not sure which 05:09:14 Bi's pretty fun. 05:09:25 Also, sex is pretty fun. 05:09:59 hi 05:10:06 People getting mad because of staring is not fun 05:10:37 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 05:10:45 staring? 05:10:46 do you stare at people sgeo. is this a problem 05:10:47 what 05:10:51 dongs everywhere 05:11:04 i stare at people. but only if they are monqy 05:11:12 =/ 05:11:17 kmc: I know that feel. 05:11:17 sorry monqy 05:11:23 Well actually I don't. 05:11:32 the monqystaring feel 05:20:42 -!- sebbu has joined. 05:21:11 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host). 05:21:11 -!- sebbu has joined. 05:22:41 -!- impomatic2 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 05:22:43 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 05:23:08 -!- impomatic2 has joined. 05:33:51 ^list 05:33:52 Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot 05:34:42 `welcome Sgeo 05:34:44 Sgeo: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) 05:35:58 Bike: Are you in Portland? 05:36:05 `welcome elliott 05:36:07 `welliott 05:36:09 elliott: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) 05:36:10 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: welliott: not found 05:36:39 Portland metro. 05:36:40 yay update 05:37:48 yupdate 05:38:06 Bike: what are you doing in portland you're a bike you don't...... never mind i guess 05:38:20 Sgeo: I'm not sure if I'd recommend asexuality, it's not that fun 05:38:33 Doesn't seem fun, no. 05:38:51 shachaf: uh have you ever seen portland it's like 700% bikes 05:39:01 Bike: that's the never mind part...... 05:39:01 I thought you were in washington 05:39:10 ah 05:39:12 Fiora: Are you confusing me with Bike? 05:39:13 My sexuality has only been actually _fun_ since maybe late 2011 05:39:17 Fiora: portland metro stretches into washington. 05:39:21 Before then it just caused problems 05:40:46 Sgeo: Oh? 05:41:25 Bike: Weren't you in Seattle? 05:41:30 Seattle is not Portland metro! 05:41:50 I wasn't in Seattle. 05:41:56 Oh. 05:42:07 I was making a joke about bikes 05:42:09 sorry <.< 05:42:14 Jokes are hard. 05:42:28 Fiora: You *should* be sorry! 05:42:34 This is a no-joke zone. 05:42:35 ._. 05:42:44 I don't think it's something I want to just casually talk about in here. Just, I was not a perfect person when I was younger. Not... utterly evil I guess, I'm not a rapist or anything like that, but 05:43:03 this is going fantastic places. 05:43:23 don't you talk about it casually quite a bit already 05:43:43 isnt that basically "what Sgeo does" 05:43:54 ugh i watched that onion video about football racists and now it's going to stick in my head uuuuugh help 05:44:05 rapists 05:44:08 Yup. Talk casually about personal life and then be worried about it. 05:44:08 i dunno probably both 05:44:14 It's the last bit that's classic Sgeo. 05:45:13 Sgeo: In the name of random. My sexuality only got "fun" since late 2012. Because that's when I lost my virginity. :P 05:46:04 I had some fun times even before losing my virginity... and losing my virginity wasn't really that fun 05:46:46 see this is what im talking about 05:47:28 Some things I'm ok with talking about casually other things I'm not. Not a difficult concept. 05:48:50 i find one of those halves really dubious 05:49:11 elliott: Which half? 05:50:15 it's a mystery 05:53:16 * coppro wonders how many karkat tantrum bingo boards exist by now 06:09:17 -!- Jafet has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 06:11:36 -!- Jafet has joined. 06:25:39 -!- Bike has quit (Quit: leaving). 06:51:45 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 06:52:04 -!- sebbu has joined. 06:52:33 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host). 06:52:34 -!- sebbu has joined. 06:58:16 -!- lmt has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 06:59:44 My sexuality has only been actually _fun_ since maybe late 2011. [..] Just, I was not a perfect person when I was younger <-- you mean younger in ..2011?! 06:59:47 you must have had vivid two years since then 07:00:06 I mean before 2011 07:01:04 sgeo: okay..*phew* ..how old are you? 07:01:11 if if may ask..btw 07:01:22 23 07:01:29 hail eris! 07:02:35 that must be the avarage age of folks in this channel.. right? i guess kmc is a little bit older 07:03:41 i'm 25 07:03:44 oh 07:03:46 how did i get to be the old one :( 07:04:05 elliott is like 18 or something despite having the demeanor of a bitter old man like me 07:07:26 -!- Jafet1 has joined. 07:07:26 how did i get to be the old one :( <-- maybe not old but.. mature ;) anyone older than you kmc? 07:07:26 and i guess ..most of the people here still haven't finished college yet 07:07:26 -!- Jafet has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 07:07:28 because you guys have too much time 07:07:30 :P 07:09:03 How is elliott already 18??? 07:12:17 * Fiora is 23? 07:14:15 you're not sure? :) 07:14:33 ... I'm... I'm pretty sure! 07:17:07 I don't think 25 counts as that old though :p 07:17:34 current year - birth year - 1 if it's before your birthday this year, current year - birth year if it's after your birthday this year. 07:17:39 can i call you mummy? 07:18:06 Sgeo 07:18:12 thank you for explaining how birthdays work 07:18:39 i'm just used to being the young one in my peer group 07:18:40 now explain how women work 07:18:43 It tends to take me a moment 07:18:47 started university 2 years early 07:18:55 -!- epicmonkey has joined. 07:26:22 iirc you mentioned beeing employed at a software company..and that's all i can tell.. however! you're all pretty young and smart. 07:26:50 and some at least pretty! 07:27:49 hagb4rd: we use the citric acid cycle to extract chemical bond energy from organic modules, powering a complex organization of self-aware nanomachines? 07:28:03 I think that's how we work. Not 100% sure though, some might work differently. 07:29:21 no i really didn't want to know how you work! 07:29:26 show me how you love! 07:29:29 :D 07:30:14 ummmmm um mixed piles of fangirl squees ? I don't know 07:31:00 you don't know. great! that's a good point to start! 07:35:15 :? 07:36:25 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello). 07:37:23 you know: where we are is always the whole world 07:39:42 !bfjoust stupid http://files.lymiahugs.com/best-50-47.txt 07:39:57 ​Score for Lymia_stupid: 5.0 07:40:27 So... let's see if bfjoust evolvers failing is because of it being that hard, or because of bad representations :p 07:40:29 * Fiora is lost 07:41:05 -!- hagb4rd has quit (Quit: *hug* bye!). 07:46:27 o_O 07:46:31 he was weird 07:47:31 not the first time 07:49:32 Huh, didn't know that citric acid cycle was a name for it 07:50:11 oh yay I guess I got it right 08:19:41 -!- jix has joined. 08:20:08 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 08:32:57 hmm, reading about borges, when suddenly one of the "See also" sections links to "List of lists of lists" 09:05:33 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 09:11:08 -!- ThatOtherPerson has joined. 09:12:15 :O 09:12:40 Google has a Conway's Game of Life easter egg now :D 09:12:46 https://www.google.com/search?q=conway's+game+of+life 09:16:20 -!- FreeFull has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 09:17:08 -!- ThatOtherPerson has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 09:21:19 -!- carado has joined. 09:24:27 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 09:26:00 -!- Jafet1 has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 09:37:14 -!- aloril has joined. 10:05:12 Also, re logs, I'm older than kmc? That somehow doesn't sound right. 10:08:29 -!- epicmonkey has joined. 10:20:13 -!- mtve has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 10:20:14 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 10:20:16 -!- comex has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 10:20:16 -!- SDr has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 10:20:16 -!- mtve has joined. 10:20:18 -!- heroux_ has joined. 10:21:11 -!- comex has joined. 10:57:48 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 11:04:55 "Least Welcoming channel on Freenode"? Surely that would be #irp! 11:06:03 `WELCOME EVERYONE 11:06:08 EVERYONE: WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE DESIGN AND DEPLOYMENT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: HTTP://ESOLANGS.ORG/WIKI/MAIN_PAGE. (FOR THE OTHER KIND OF ESOTERICA, TRY #ESOTERIC ON IRC.DAL.NET.) 11:29:48 -!- sebbu has quit (Quit: reboot). 12:07:53 -!- sebbu has joined. 12:07:53 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host). 12:07:53 -!- sebbu has joined. 12:38:58 -!- oerjan has joined. 12:39:30 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 12:44:25 Fiora: if i cared about madoka spoilers i'd point out spoiler markings don't work in the logs. 12:45:26 also, there would be someone awake to read it. 12:46:18 THIS IS A SPOILER 12:46:20 -!- DH____ has joined. 12:46:23 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 12:46:48 THIS TOO 12:47:12 ^rainbow2 is not, though 12:47:12 ████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████ ...too much output! 12:47:26 (it's just blocks) 12:52:33 in fact the real PH hasn't even seen farscape. it's just that 2/3rds of his 3-person IRC team really like it <-- is there any overlap with the team that plays DMM? 12:54:02 does dmm like farscape? 12:54:29 i have no idea. 12:55:54 oh farscape is australian too. probably there is overlap with the actor team too... 12:56:08 *- too 12:56:54 `addquote i don't think hitler made any bf derivatives 12:56:59 986) i don't think hitler made any bf derivatives 13:05:11 -!- oerjan has set topic: The median welcoming channel on Freenode. You have been warned. | #esoteric is supposed to be about esoteric programming languages, but is really a couple of dozen people being weird | Newsflash: fungot has been writing spam for money. | Logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/. 13:14:48 -!- ais523 has joined. 13:15:45 haha, I just got an email from X, with reply-to: set to X's address, asking for a reply at Y 13:16:31 -!- ThatOtherPerson has joined. 13:20:42 -!- Jafet has joined. 13:21:32 -!- tromp has joined. 13:22:11 -!- boily has joined. 13:22:42 -!- metasepia has joined. 13:23:04 ~metar CYUL 13:23:04 CYUL 191311Z 07011KT 3/4SM R06L/2600FT/U R06R/2600FT/N -SN BLSN VV004 M02/M03 A2988 RMK SN8 SLP121 13:24:01 stupidweatherstupidpublictransportationdidn'tgetmycoffeeyetaaaaaaurgh! 13:24:08 good morning all! 13:30:02 afternoon boily 13:30:13 hey i was just about to say that. 13:30:14 It's been stupidly cold here all this month. Overall average temperature for March has been around -8 °C; it's supposed to be around -1..-1.5 °C. Someone must've forgotten to bump the season variable. 13:30:28 fizzie: you should file a complaint 13:31:13 Yes, maybe there's a web form. They might send me a gift card or something. 13:31:25 ais523: i _maybe_ kind of possibly think the wiki might currently be having a spam problem. 13:31:45 oerjan: yeah but I can't fix it, I'm at work 13:31:51 I'll fix it when I get home, if nobody else does first 13:31:58 or, well, not home 13:32:00 just not-work 13:32:22 * oerjan phones ais523's employers to sack him so he can fix the wiki 13:32:52 oerjan: err, this is a really ironic day to make that threat 13:32:59 O KAY 13:33:09 was the last day of contact with this year's cohort of students, and I'm leaving at the end of the academic year 13:33:21 so I hardly need to turn up from now on 13:33:29 excellent! 13:33:38 pesky students 13:34:29 I enjoy working with them 13:36:43 although one of the highlights of weirdness of today's marking session was that one of the students had (in Java) created a property in a class, with the same name as the class 13:36:48 oerjan: but but. you pointed it out. soooo you must care about spoilers ! 13:37:12 Fiora: >_> <_> <_< 13:37:14 which is permitted by the compiler, but which cannot be done without violating capitalization constraints, as well as several other things wrong with it 13:37:16 (but seriously sorry, I didn't know the logs stripped colors :<) 13:37:26 err, capitalization conventions 13:37:33 Fiora: several clients strip colors too, I have mine set to do that 13:37:47 also you can't know the background color, and most clients don't understand codes to set the background color 13:37:49 Fiora: they don't _strip_ them. they just don't interpret them as colors. 13:38:55 geez. is there some portable way then? 13:39:06 I've always been told to use ^C0,0 or something like that... 13:39:53 only portable way to do spoilers in IRC is to put them in a different channel/query/privmsg 13:40:13 I think the ^C0,0 thing not only isn't portable, it also only works in mIRC 13:40:13 once upon a time that was the kind of thing rot13 was used for. 13:40:21 rot13 could work 13:40:37 ais523: it works in irssi 13:40:41 actually, at least one unspoiled NetHack channel uses rot13 13:40:49 it works in irs-- what oerjan said <.< 13:41:04 I think it works in mibbit too? maybe xchat? 13:41:07 it works in the most bestest client of them all, the incredible weechat. 13:41:09 I don't know that many clients 13:42:49 doesn't it only work in irssi if the terminal happens to have a background that's the same color as a black foreground? 13:43:02 (as I discovered working on AceHack, this is not the same thing as a black background) 13:43:08 sets the background too, I think? 13:43:11 .... oops 13:43:15 ^C0,0 sets the background too, I think? 13:43:23 like, on my client, ^C0,0 is all white 13:43:26 and ^C1,1 is all black 13:43:45 the background color part of ^C isn't interpreted by that many clients 13:43:51 frequently you're talking to someone using mIRC 13:43:56 and just get stray commas and numbers 13:44:54 Works in HexChat as well 13:45:04 But it's ^K0,0 13:45:22 works here, and it's annoying. I have to go and use my mouse! 13:45:28 ais523: my irssi/putty setup understands background colors. 13:45:45 hmm, fair enough 13:46:40 that's what I use too... I guess I'll try to be more careful though since it doesn't work with everything 13:47:40 i vaguely do recall i changed the white color for putty way back because it was actually a kind of light grey by default. 13:50:14 Fiora: on my client ^C0,0 is kind of medium light grey. 13:50:32 as long as they're the same color I guess? ^^;; 13:51:13 but that's ok, then i can see that the spoilers are _there_ :P (unlike some of that unicode people use. wtf chooses "invisible" as the representation for unknown characters?) 13:51:58 Unicode has a character for representing unknown characters, that's what arguably should get used. 13:52:18 ...of course it has. 13:52:51 Though I don't know what should be done if the system can't find a font with a glyph for U+FFFD REPLACEMENT CHARACTER in it. 13:54:21 maybe that is the problem :P 13:54:59 GTK appears to handle unknown characters by rendering a square with the hex digits of the codepoint in it 13:55:03 or a rectangle, for the astral planes 14:00:45 the wonders of unicode, and mystic characters like ᢆ. 14:02:40 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 14:02:41 -!- ais523 has quit. 14:03:25 It's not quite square for me even for BMP characters; the aspect ratio is around 0.82. 14:08:35 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 14:11:44 -!- sirdancealot has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 14:25:50 oh man 14:37:41 -!- sirdancealot has joined. 14:39:12 -!- ThatOtherPerson has quit (Quit: Leaving). 14:49:03 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Inspace 14:49:05 best template 14:53:38 is it in lua? 14:55:07 -!- lmt has joined. 14:55:30 no 15:05:02 -!- ThatOtherPerson has joined. 15:08:20 -!- ais523 has joined. 15:11:20 -!- Bike has joined. 15:12:50 -!- pikhq has joined. 15:13:47 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 15:15:16 -!- Taneb has joined. 15:17:30 @tell oerjan I deleted the spam, also expanded an existing spam filter to help stop repeats in the future; there haven't been false positives recently, and if the spam continues I'll expand the filter further in order to do the delete+block automatically (after giving humans a chance to back out) 15:17:30 Consider it noted. 15:18:41 ais523, do we require email verification before editing? 15:18:55 not sure how effective that is, they could probably generate emails too 15:19:13 Vorpal: no; we rely people to answer a question about esolangs whose answer is very obvious from the relevant article 15:19:26 if they do that, we also require the first edit to not fit a recognised spambot pattern 15:19:39 yet bots manage to bypass it sometimes? 15:19:47 I just expanded the pattern 15:19:50 hm 15:20:04 to allow for the latest burst of spam 15:20:18 if the first edit does fit the pattern, the user is told to go edit the sandbox instead to prove they're human 15:20:22 I'm confused anyone would care adding code to handle such a custom "captcha system" for such a small site 15:20:31 and the warning page has a clickable submit button 15:20:32 doesn't seem worth the time 15:20:47 so far the spambots appear to be using the submit button on the warning page 15:20:54 heh 15:21:05 which is a sufficiently clear sign that they're spambots that if they continue, I'll make it automatically block anyone who clicks it :) 15:21:20 right 15:21:22 makes sense 15:21:40 -!- pikhq_ has quit (*.net *.split). 15:21:40 -!- FireFly has quit (*.net *.split). 15:21:40 -!- oonbotti has quit (*.net *.split). 15:21:48 ais523, though clicking through two dialogs or such after each other is a fairly common human error 15:21:55 so best design it to avoid such mistakes 15:22:14 Vorpal: yeah; that's part of the reason I haven't set it to block anyone yet 15:22:19 even though there's the possibility of appealing 15:22:31 ah 15:23:05 (the mere presence of an appeal would be a sign that it was a human…) 15:23:14 true 15:23:24 Until the spambots catch on! 15:24:22 yeah but fighting against really really sophisticated spambots is kind-of fun 15:24:41 also they tend to only target Wikipedia, because no other site is really valuable enough to use that sort of spambot tweaking on 15:25:53 ais523, exactly, which is why I'm surprised that some of them managed to answer the esolang quiz 15:26:03 why did they bother handling that 15:26:30 Is there data on how many fail it? 15:26:32 -!- FireFly has joined. 15:26:44 the access log presumably 15:27:00 Hey, FireFly 15:27:06 Haven't seen you in a while? 15:27:09 We'll have a problem once a spambot passes the Turing test 15:27:36 -!- aloril has joined. 15:27:42 Vorpal: I've heard that captcha-solving tends to be outsourced to humans nowadays 15:27:49 ah 15:27:56 ais523, and it is worth it on the esolang wiki? 15:28:01 Taneb: and yeah, I don't have data on how many fail the captcha, just how many succeed 15:28:05 Vorpal: no but they don't know that 15:28:16 we put nofollow on all external links but they don't seem to care about that either 15:28:16 heh 15:28:36 or the occasional spambot actually does, they try to put a landing page on Esolang that entices humans to click a link 15:28:47 and try to SEO the landing page rather than the link target 15:28:58 ah 15:35:06 it's a vaguely clever idea, at least 15:35:32 Google have been trying to crack down on it for a while now 15:49:20 -!- nooodl has joined. 15:52:07 -!- Lymia has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 15:52:22 -!- lmt has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 15:55:59 -!- nooodl has quit (Quit: Leaving). 15:59:48 -!- DH____ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 16:00:10 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 16:00:12 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:06:00 -!- nooodl has joined. 16:11:36 -!- essakki has joined. 16:13:50 hi 16:14:20 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 16:18:37 kmc: I am 17 actually 16:18:58 kmc: hope thsi helps 16:19:07 -!- Arc_Koen has joined. 16:19:43 hi elliott 16:19:57 `relcome essakki 16:20:03 ​essakki: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) 16:20:21 gah, there is definitely something wrong with the "strip colors" option in Konversation 16:20:25 wht u doin 16:20:29 to me, that was almost all regular color except that the parenthetical is orange 16:21:30 wht, that's a nice one 16:23:54 ohh!!!!, how ur nw 16:26:26 ais523: If it was exactly the parenthetical bit, that's curious, since there's not even any color change directly at the (. 16:26:55 essakki: i think you may be a wee bit lost 16:28:23 fizzie: that and the full stop after "Main_Page" 16:28:28 ooh, I think I know what's happening 16:28:59 can someone send something that consists of some white text, some colored text, a link within that colored text, more of that colored text, then some text in a different color? 16:29:27 i nominate fizzie 16:29:40 err, by "white text" I mean default color 16:29:44 something like 16:29:59 text text http://example.com text text 16:30:19 it looks OK when I send it, but perhaps if it's in someone else's message… 16:30:26 ^bf ,[.,]!text text http://example.com text text 16:30:26 text text http://example.com text text 16:30:29 hmm 16:30:51 does fungot strip color codes? 16:30:52 ais523: good morning. 16:31:08 I guess it might 16:31:24 ^bf +.>,[.,]<.!action test 16:31:24 action test 16:31:27 probably not 16:34:09 It does not. 16:34:18 And "age. (For the ot" was all in one colour. 16:34:22 (I'm kind of food-making here.) 16:36:31 it looks to me like recovering after the link is what made the color code actually appear 16:36:31 (orange, fwiw) 16:36:31 but perhaps not 16:36:32 Some white text some colored text, a link within http://example.com/example.html more of it some text in a different color. 16:36:32 all appears white to me 16:36:32 so, hmm 16:36:32 what is it about `relcome 16:36:32 `relcome test 16:36:32 ​test: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) 16:36:32 yeah, `relcome pretty consistently colors everything after the link 16:36:32 lol 16:36:32 ^bf ,[.,]!abcdef http://example.com. ghi 16:36:32 abcdef http://example.com. ghi 16:36:32 hmm, no 16:36:32 `run echo Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipisicing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco laboris nisi ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat. Duis aute irure dolor in reprehenderit in voluptate velit esse cillum dolore eu fugiat nulla pariatur. | colorize 16:36:34 ​Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipisicing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco laboris nisi ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat. Duis aute irure dolor in reprehenderit in voluptate velit esse cillum dolore eu fug 16:36:39 ^bf ,[.,]!abcdef http://exam%C2ple.com. ghi 16:36:40 abcdef http://exam%C2ple.com. ghi 16:36:45 Well, that's not right at all. That was all in one color. 16:36:46 fizzie: no color in anything but `relcome yet 16:36:58 `run ls bin/*r* 16:37:00 bin/colorize \ bin/forget \ bin/fortune \ bin/frink \ bin/interp \ bin/joustreport \ bin/jousturl \ bin/karma \ bin/karma- \ bin/karma+ \ bin/learn \ bin/logurl \ bin/luarocks \ bin/luarocks-admin \ bin/macro \ bin/marco \ bin/oerjan \ bin/ord \ bin/pastefortunes \ bin/pastekarma \ bin/prefixes \ bin/quoerjan \ bin/quørjan \ bin/r13 \ bin/rainword 16:37:09 bin/colorize has colour too. 16:37:22 `run echo foobarbazquux | colorize 16:37:24 ​foobarbazquux 16:37:40 Oh, I guess the lorem ipsum was just too long. 16:37:48 ^bf ,[.,]!​test: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica try #esoteric on irc.dal.net. 16:37:49 ​test: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoter ... 16:37:56 nope 16:38:03 `run echo Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipisicing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco. | colorize 16:38:05 ​Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipisicing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco. 16:38:12 fizzie: that apeared colored for me 16:38:15 -!- azaq23 has joined. 16:38:17 That should be essentially equivalent to relcome. 16:38:21 cyan from the full stop onwards 16:38:26 white before there 16:38:34 where does the cyan start to your view? 16:38:42 I guess I didn't say anything y'all didn't know. 16:38:52 ais523: At the "ge." of "Main_Page." 16:39:10 so it's inside the link 16:39:21 ais523: It's the color the end of the link is in. 16:39:29 this bug is hilarious 16:39:31 ^bf ,[.,]!http://exam%C1ple.com. test 16:39:31 http://exam%C1ple.com. test 16:39:34 `run mv bin/colorize bin/colorise 16:39:38 No output. 16:39:38 en_NZ, people 16:39:39 `revert 16:39:42 Done. 16:39:42 `env 16:39:44 TERM=linux \ http_proxy=http://127.0.0.1:3128 \ HACKENV=/hackenv \ PATH=/hackenv/bin:/opt/python27/bin:/opt/ghc/bin:/usr/bin:/bin \ PWD=/hackenv \ LANG=en_NZ.UTF-8 \ SHLVL=0 \ HOME=/tmp 16:39:46 en_NZ 16:39:48 `run mv bin/colorize bin/colorise 16:39:52 No output. 16:39:52 wait 16:39:53 `revert 16:39:54 u is a thing too 16:39:55 Done. 16:39:57 `run echo Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipisicing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna http://example.com/different_link.html how about it? Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco. | colorize 16:39:58 `run mv bin/colorize bin/colourise 16:39:59 ​Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipisicing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna http://example.com/different_link.html how about it? Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco. 16:40:00 there we go 16:40:02 `run ln bin/colori{s,z}e 16:40:02 No output. 16:40:03 ln: accessing `bin/colorise': No such file or directory 16:40:04 elliott: how do you know "colorise" is correct in NZ english? 16:40:04 `revert 16:40:06 Done. 16:40:06 `run ln bin/colori{s,z}e 16:40:08 ln: accessing `bin/colorise': No such file or directory 16:40:13 ais523: it was a mistake! 16:40:16 Blach. 16:40:17 I know colourise is 16:40:22 ais523: http://google.ca/ 16:40:23 shachaf: don't use the bot so fast 16:40:25 ais523: http://google.ca/ foo bar baz 16:40:30 coppro: second appears orange 16:40:33 for the foo bar baz 16:40:35 ais523: yep, that's the bug then 16:40:41 coppro: can you tell me what your input was? 16:40:48 `run ls bin/colo* 16:40:50 bin/colorize 16:41:02 `run ln bin/colorize bin/colorise bin/colourize bin/colourise 16:41:03 ln: target `bin/colourise' is not a directory 16:41:05 let's see 16:41:06 Where there is a difference between British and US spelling (such as cancelling/canceling and travelled/traveled), the British spelling is almost universally used. With "-our" words like colour/color or behaviour/behavior the spelling of "-our" is always used.[36] One common exception to this rule is fulfill, where New Zealand favours the US usage fulfill over the British fulfil. 16:41:08 Oops. 16:41:09 ais523: There's just a color-change at the "ca" of the link. 16:41:12 In words that may be spelled with either an -ise or an -ize suffix (such as organise/organize) New Zealand English, like Australian English, mainly prefers -ise. This contrasts with American English, where -ize is generally preferred, and British English, where -ise is more frequent but -ize is preferred by some (the Oxford spelling).[37] In New Zealand it is not wrong to use either. 16:41:15 ais523: ^C7 just after the period 16:41:18 `run for f in bin/colorise bin/colourize bin/colourise; do ln bin/colorize $f; done 16:41:18 `run mv bin/colorize bin/colourise 16:41:20 so that's the right spelling for hackego standard en_NZ 16:41:22 No output. 16:41:24 ln: accessing `bin/colorize': No such file or directory \ ln: accessing `bin/colorize': No such file or directory \ ln: accessing `bin/colorize': No such file or directory 16:41:26 coppro: OK 16:41:29 `revert 16:41:29 why en_NZ? 16:41:30 Done. 16:41:32 `run for f in bin/colorise bin/colourize bin/colourise; do ln bin/colorize $f; done 16:41:36 No output. 16:41:38 coppro: my theory is so that people will ask "why en_NZ"? 16:41:44 ais523: I'm hoping that's the answer 16:41:51 I think pretty much every channel regular (apart from the one responsible) has asked that at some point 16:41:56 * shachaf hasn't. 16:42:06 shachaf: that still leaves the original at the incorrect location for en_NZ... 16:42:10 -!- lmt has joined. 16:42:12 also I don't think hg does links properly 16:42:13 elliott: it's ln, not ln -s 16:42:13 elliott: "original"? 16:42:15 `revert 16:42:16 Done. 16:42:17 it's symmetrical 16:42:19 elliott: That's a hard link. 16:42:20 `run mv bin/colorize bin/colourise 16:42:21 That's the point. 16:42:23 No output. 16:42:24 oh, right, hard links 16:42:25 `revert 16:42:26 well those are a pain to maintain 16:42:27 but yeah, I'm not sure ln understands hardlinks 16:42:28 Done. 16:42:28 `run for f in bin/colorise bin/colourize bin/colourise; do ln bin/colorize $f; done 16:42:30 ln: creating hard link `bin/colorise': File exists \ ln: creating hard link `bin/colourize': File exists \ ln: creating hard link `bin/colourise': File exists 16:42:32 e.g. plenty of things don't maintain them across edits 16:42:42 `ls -lh bin/colourize 16:42:43 elliott: Emacs has customizable behaviour for that 16:42:44 ​/bin/ls: invalid option -- ' ' \ Try `/bin/ls --help' for more information. \ /bin/ls: invalid option -- ' ' \ Try `/bin/ls --help' for more information. 16:42:48 We'll have to find out how hg does it, won't we. 16:42:48 `run ls -lh bin/colourise 16:42:49 `run ls -lh bin/colourize 16:42:49 ​-rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 0 271 Mar 19 16:42 bin/colourise 16:42:50 ​-rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 0 271 Mar 19 16:42 bin/colourize 16:42:58 pretty sure that's taking extra space on the disk 16:42:58 which is useful when editing a file which you own, but aren't a member of the group that the file belongs to 16:42:59 ais523: why wouldn't ln understand hardlinks 16:43:02 `run ls -li bin/colo* 16:43:03 anyway are you just trying to waste time 16:43:03 735316 -rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 0 271 Mar 19 16:42 bin/colorise \ 737653 -rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 0 271 Mar 19 16:42 bin/colorize \ 735415 -rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 0 271 Mar 19 16:42 bin/colourise \ 737132 -rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 0 271 Mar 19 16:42 bin/colourize 16:43:12 since it seems pointless to clutter up bin with a bunch of names for the same thing 16:43:13 coppro: typo, I meant I wasn't sure hg understood hardlinks 16:43:17 especially if it's easy for them to get out of sync 16:43:21 I don't think I'm the one trying to waste time. You're ruining what was a perfectly working system. 16:43:21 anyway those files all have a link count of 1 16:43:23 and different inodes 16:43:25 (because lots of stuff is inconsistent about whether it maintains hrad links or not) 16:43:28 *hard 16:43:30 shachaf: so basically, it doesn't work 16:43:31 so they will inevitably get out of sync for no reason 16:43:37 because hackego doesn't support hardlinks 16:43:47 Fine, let's make them symlinks. 16:43:49 perhaps having shell scripts that exec the colourise name would be reasonable, though it seems pointless, but this isn't workable 16:43:52 `revert 16:43:52 Done. 16:43:55 `run mv bin/colorize bin/colourise 16:43:56 mv: cannot stat `bin/colorize': No such file or directory 16:43:57 simple 16:44:00 ugh, what now? 16:44:07 `run ls bin/colo* 16:44:09 bin/colorise \ bin/colourise \ bin/colourize 16:44:10 `revert 2458 16:44:10 clearly we need a cronjob that randomly renames them now and again 16:44:12 Done. 16:44:14 `run mv bin/colorize bin/colourise 16:44:16 `which cron 16:44:17 No output. 16:44:18 there 16:44:18 -!- Lymia has joined. 16:44:18 No output. 16:44:18 -!- Lymia has quit (Changing host). 16:44:18 -!- Lymia has joined. 16:44:21 err 16:44:22 `which crontab 16:44:24 ​/usr/bin/crontab 16:44:30 ``run ls bin/colo* 16:44:32 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `run: not found 16:44:34 `run ls bin/colo* 16:44:34 I wonder if putting things in the crontab would actually have an effect 16:44:36 bin/colourise 16:44:36 my guess is no 16:45:05 `run mv bin/colourise bin/colo; for f in colorize colourize colorise colourise; do ln -s colo bin/$f; done 16:45:09 There. 16:45:10 No output. 16:45:19 fungot: 16:45:20 ThatOtherPerson: ( definitely impossible) analysis to figure out how to operate on characters' ascii values in scheme48, use non-blocking i/ o 16:45:29 `revert 16:45:31 Done. 16:45:32 bin is already way too big 16:45:36 not sure why you care about this 16:45:40 `run grep -r colorize bin 16:45:42 bin/relcome:welcome "$@" | colorize 16:45:48 `run sed -i 's/colorize/colourise' bin/relcome 16:45:50 sed: -e expression #1, char 20: unterminated `s' command 16:45:52 `run sed -i 's/colorize/colourise/' bin/relcome 16:45:55 personally I'd get rid of all the stupid welcome variants 16:45:56 No output. 16:45:57 `cat bin/relcome 16:45:59 ​#!/bin/sh \ welcome "$@" | colourise 16:46:00 even if relcome exposed a bug 16:46:06 god's in his heaven, all's right with the world 16:46:10 `relcome fungot 16:46:11 ThatOtherPerson: i came to it but mostly ignored its output into js, or are you just referring to people dying and getting " buggy" though 16:46:11 elliott: You're the one messing up a perfectly working thing. 16:46:13 ​fungot: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) 16:46:27 i don't see anything messed up at all? 16:46:27 `run mv bin/{colourise,rainbow} 16:46:31 No output. 16:46:32 except ais523's colour filter 16:46:45 `run sed -i 's/colurise/rainbow/g' bin/relcome 16:46:47 No output. 16:46:52 i see you trying to waste a lot of time passive-aggressively because you apparently object to what i'm doing for no apparent reason, though 16:47:00 which is kind of a pattern here 16:47:15 I am trying every compromise I can think of to your silly spelling. 16:47:28 colorize was a perfectly working script. 16:47:37 You didn't write it; you don't really get to name it. 16:47:46 perhaps you should petition Gregor to change HackEgo's language setting or something equally pointless or omething 16:47:52 never seen a bigger molehill mountain 16:48:07 HackEgo's language setting has no bearing on spelling of script names. 16:48:10 `run ls /usr/bin/*color* 16:48:12 ​/usr/bin/dircolors 16:48:14 `run ls /usr/bin/*colour* 16:48:15 ​/bin/ls: cannot access /usr/bin/*colour*: No such file or directory \ /bin/ls: cannot access /usr/bin/*colour*: No such file or directory 16:48:27 * Gregor munches on popcorn. 16:48:34 Gregor: hi 16:48:58 -!- carado has joined. 16:48:58 Man, "colourise" is a fabulous word. Two cross-Atlantic spelling disagreements in one word! 16:49:30 elliott is 17 going on 18 16:49:41 Gregor: I'll disagree with Canadians, thank you very much. 16:50:15 "In the early 18th century, English spelling was not standardized. Differences became noticeable after the publishing of influential dictionaries. Today's British English spellings follow, for the most part, those of Samuel Johnson's A Dictionary of the English Language (1755), whereas many American English spellings follow Noah Webster's An American Dictionary of the English Language (1828).[1 16:50:15 ]" 16:50:21 @quote monochrom going.on 16:50:21 monochrom says: I am 17-ary, going on 18-ary, I can take curry of you 16:51:56 -!- Taneb has joined. 16:52:01 -!- ais523_ has joined. 16:52:21 http://example.com test 16:52:27 got it 16:52:49 -!- ais523_ has quit (Client Quit). 16:59:49 -!- carado has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:00:06 -!- carado has joined. 17:02:47 coppro: bug filed (https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=317034), thanks for helping me to debug 17:08:52 hi 17:09:14 Hi, essakki 17:09:29 `welcome essakki 17:09:30 ya welcome, 17:09:31 essakki: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) 17:09:59 ~metar CYUL 17:10:05 taneb u m/f? 17:10:21 I don't see how this is relevant to our interaction 17:10:31 -!- metasepia has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:10:40 -!- metasepia has joined. 17:10:41 jnnj4 17:10:47 ~metar CYUL 17:10:47 CYUL 191700Z 09009KT 5/8SM R06L/3500FT/N R06R/3000V5000FT/U -SN DRSN VV005 M01/M02 A2983 RMK SN8 /S12/ SLP102 17:10:55 ya thats nice 17:11:07 wht u doin 17:11:37 Times crossword 17:11:38 essakki: do you understand what this channel is for? 17:12:11 admittedly, out of the channels that people stumble into by mistake, this one is quite low down the list 17:12:12 kindly exp me ais 17:12:22 ais523: What *is* this channel for? 17:12:49 shachaf: it's a community of people who originally started talking to each other because they were interested in esoteric programming languages 17:12:54 wht taneb 17:12:57 Oh. 17:13:09 What is it for now? 17:13:12 and mostly still are, although it turned out that there were a bunch of other moderately common interests too 17:13:29 so it's a channel for topics that interest esoteric programmers 17:13:39 sorry, me out of that, 17:14:08 Is it the languages or the programmers which are esoteric? 17:14:25 Mindset in general, I think, shachaf 17:14:43 Seeing as we have at least one IOCCC winner in the channel, I'd lean to the latter 17:15:27 wch country ur 17:16:05 Once again, not particularly relevant 17:16:25 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o ais523. 17:16:37 * boily grabs pockys and watch 17:16:52 boily: what's the watch for? 17:16:56 Taneb: fwiw, "where are you from?" or the like, if it doesn't have an obvious reason for being asked in context, is pretty much a very clear indicator of a subset of people who turn up to channels with no idea what they're about and never do anything useful 17:17:04 bye me want to quit this for my tmrw job 17:17:13 bye 17:17:14 I'm not sure why, but this pattern is so far 100% consistent IME; it's probably less consistent than that in practice and I've just been lucky 17:17:24 i'll miss you essakki 17:17:45 ais523, I know, I just don't really know how to react 17:17:55 -!- ais523 has kicked essakki in the wrong channel, and hasn't given us enough information to direct us to the right one. 17:17:58 elliott: it happens that I have the same watch model with random people. I think it's a sign that my qi is particularly aligned today. 17:18:06 Taneb: that's the usual reaction 17:18:10 boily: is it a mustard watch? 17:18:19 fun fact: I originally typoed the nick as "elliott" due to a tab-complete mistake, and had to correct it 17:18:27 -!- ais523 has set channel mode: -o ais523. 17:18:31 elliott: no, I prefer sriracha. 17:18:38 ais523: i'm ok with being kicked 17:18:43 feel free, any time 17:18:44 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 17:18:47 thoguh don't ban me 17:18:49 i need #esoteric on 2 17:18:54 otherwise my channel numbering scheme is messed up 17:19:01 Hello 17:19:10 hi AnotherTest 17:19:12 wch country ur 17:19:15 elliott: yeah but I dislike kicking people for fun 17:19:17 elliott, hey, I remember you quit for a few months a while ago 17:19:17 (sorry, that was an easy one.) 17:19:23 I never asked you what made you come back 17:19:34 boily: yeah, the "if it doesn't have an obvious reason for being asked in context" was directed at that and one other situation 17:20:04 Vorpal: probably everything was terrible 17:20:10 There is a good chance that was a troll. 17:20:11 and then I forgot it was terrible 17:20:18 ThatOtherPerson: trolls would be less consistent in their pattern 17:20:24 I'm not quite sure what causes the pattern 17:20:26 I sometimes go on, eg, Omegle, and pretend to have no idea what people mean by "m/f" et al 17:20:28 heh 17:20:31 elliott, oh okay 17:20:37 ais523 actually tempted to me to ask where someone is from out of context sometime 17:20:37 Taneb: :D oh that's fun 17:20:43 since it doesn't seem that weird a thing to ask 17:20:46 but they turn up to a channel, often pick on individual members of it who look active, ask for a bunch of personal information for no reason, and do nothing else 17:20:49 "You f?" 17:20:55 Taneb, what is omegle? 17:20:58 "Nah, I'm t" 17:21:04 Taneb: actually the first time I went on Omegle I actually didn't know 17:21:06 -!- Lymia has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 17:21:20 Vorpal, it's a website that puts you in an anonymous IM conversation with a random other person 17:21:24 Vorpal: a really stupid chatting site where it connects you to a random stranger 17:21:26 okay 17:21:34 not sure why I would ever want that 17:21:37 but okay 17:21:40 The site is less stupid than most of the people who lurk around it 17:21:51 ThatOtherPerson: same idea as chatroulette? 17:21:57 ThatOtherPerson, that doesn't bode well 17:21:59 ais523: probably 17:22:10 btw, I have it on moderately good authority that chatroulette was actually interesting once 17:22:11 You can specify tags and it tries to connect you to people with the same tags 17:22:12 but not for very long 17:22:14 I like the Homestuck variant of the site where you can pick a character to RP and be randomly matched with another person 17:22:15 before it became famous 17:23:38 Fiora, some of my friends RP on that occasionally 17:23:45 Taneb: the 'm/f' thing reminds me of some wonderful instances of gender confusion too 17:23:55 in another channel there was once a thing where some random newbie joined 17:24:12 and two friends of mine were there (boyfriend and girlfriend) but the guy thought they were both female 17:24:15 so they went with it 17:24:18 and pretended to be lesbians 17:24:21 and it was the funniest thing 17:24:25 Heh 17:24:26 elliott: Your irssi window doesn't have to close when you leave a channel. 17:24:33 Did the truth ever emerge? 17:24:44 I don't think the guy figured it out (he left later, didn't come back, just some random person) 17:24:56 I think he was using the 'nick ends with a == female' heuristic 17:25:20 Fiora: convincing people on random forums that I'm female without making any statements that pertain to one gender or the other is something I do on occasion 17:25:25 Fiora: I actually had a guy ask me out on a date repeatedly 17:25:29 XD 17:25:30 because he thought I was a female 17:25:45 acting very defensive when the question of gender comes up is the usual way 17:25:50 (this only works due to people's default gender assumptions) 17:25:50 funny thing is, I tried to break it several times 17:25:58 but he didn't got it 17:26:02 Arc_Koen: online, or real life? 17:26:09 online 17:26:14 online it'd be awkward because all the nicks I've seen you use have military ranks in them 17:26:16 are you implying I might look like a girl 17:26:23 haha 17:26:24 and military causes people to assume male because of the way the balance works 17:26:32 my nick was "Ae" 17:26:32 in real life, most soldiers are male 17:26:33 People used to mistake me for female all the time both online and off. 17:26:45 Nowadays it only happens online. 17:26:46 and I have no idea what you look like, and am not really sure it matters 17:27:37 well it does in that context I guess 17:27:49 in my mind, I picture shachaf as an impish imp. 17:28:04 I don't normally mentally picture people at all 17:28:19 I am unable to mentally picture people. 17:28:21 although I just decided to mentally picture elliott as looking like Michael Jordan, because it's amusingly incongruous 17:29:10 I usually picture people as a few ascii chars 17:29:28 -!- Lymia has joined. 17:29:30 it works pretty well most of the time but then sometimes THEY CHANGE NICKS and I get confused 17:29:40 Like this? 17:29:40 -!- Taneb has changed nick to atriq. 17:29:46 Taneb................................... 17:29:48 -!- Lymia has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 17:29:50 i picture them as a coloured cp437 char 17:29:57 -!- Lymia has joined. 17:29:58 -!- Lymia has quit (Changing host). 17:29:58 -!- Lymia has joined. 17:29:58 Phantom_Hoover: racist 17:30:03 also when guys have girlish nicks or girls have boyish names it gets weird 17:30:14 -!- boily has changed nick to girlish. 17:30:17 it's hard to tell the difference between white nerd dudes, they all look the same :p 17:30:28 Fiora: I disagree, I think 17:30:38 it doesn't take long to learn how to tell them apart 17:30:44 Phantom_Hoover: I used to do that but my new client colours everyone in yellow 17:30:52 I'm white, I'm definitely a nerd, I'll have to check for the dude part. 17:30:54 I guess they have some bits of entropy? 17:30:59 (also quite a few people in this channel know what I actually look like) 17:31:00 like beard size 17:31:03 kmc: remember our discussion about compatibility in Windows? 17:31:07 I have one word for you 17:31:14 and like, whether they are "really tall" or "really really really tall" 17:31:16 istr reading that the reason for the whole 'all x look the same' thing is that you train your face recognition when you're young 17:31:20 coppro: we need a Windows dating service 17:31:26 imo "octaves of entropy" 17:31:30 otoh i also str reading this in a jared diamond book, so... 17:31:44 kmc: Hey, you should name a band that. 17:31:45 C:¥Program Files₩My Application\Foo 17:31:47 Phantom_Hoover: I'm not convinced, it doesn't take me long to determine how to distinguish people in a culture I'm unfamiliar with, if I want to 17:32:04 :D 17:32:12 ais523, there was also research, apparently 17:32:26 C:¥Program Files₩My Application\Foo <-- the fuck happened? 17:32:32 * Fiora is mostly kidding on the "can't distinguish part", she's probably not much worse (?) than your average autistic mes 17:32:33 -!- girlish has changed nick to boily. 17:32:35 also I get confused between British people frequently, despite having grown up with them 17:32:36 they showed babies picture of general primates and they were about as good at distinguishing monkeys as humans 17:32:37 *mess 17:32:58 I can't distinguish elliott and conal 17:32:59 and over time they got worse at monkeys, and better at humans, and then it specialised to race 17:33:03 And elliottt 17:33:09 And elliottcable 17:33:10 is elliottt someone else? 17:33:13 Yes. 17:33:19 also, ec is noticeably different from elliott 17:33:30 Trevor Elliott 17:33:31 I haven't talked to conal enough to know how similar to elliott he/she is, though 17:33:43 conal is rather different 17:33:43 Phantom_Hoover: so they trained newborns to recognize monkeys 17:33:51 what happened then? 17:33:53 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 17:34:09 they had them live among the monkeys and learn their ways 17:34:29 Vorpal: http://blogs.msdn.com/b/michkap/archive/2005/09/17/469941.aspx 17:34:49 ais523, I think this might be a thing that varies on individual level quite a bit. I.e. I have a terrible memory wrt. connecting face and name. I can manage names of people I haven't seen just fine. And I can remember faces. I just have a hard time learning the connection. 17:35:10 same here 17:35:18 I can't remember faces. 17:35:24 coppro, thing is, neither of those previous chars looked like backslash to me. 17:35:25 IIRC, quite a bit of apparently weird behaviour by dogs can be explained via assuming that the dogs are assuming that human societal structures work the same way as canine societal structures 17:35:27 most of the rest of the details are classified, but radiation levels in the congo have been elevated ever since 17:35:30 coppro, sure you use UTF-8? 17:35:30 I can't really remember names until I know the spelling. 17:35:45 Vorpal: it's rather similar for me; however, in teaching, you have to memorise a lot of people 17:35:53 shachaf: I usually invent a spelling 17:35:55 ais523, that I would utterly fail at 17:36:09 this year I was a bit lazy in that, actually; it didn't hurt too much 17:36:21 knowing which students are yours and which aren't is more important than being able to distinguish them from each other, though 17:36:26 because you can always ask them who they are 17:36:26 coppro, oh I see now 17:36:27 heh 17:37:16 he when I was in prepschool my english teacher kept looking at me for one or two months 17:37:18 btw, is it weird to mentally translate the names of fictional characters between languages? 17:37:24 as in, they have a different name in different translations of the same canon 17:37:30 he never asked me my name or any class-related question 17:37:40 I think we developed a pretty cool look-only relationship 17:38:04 and you hear one of the names and translate it to the other mentally to understand better 17:38:05 ais523: usually not 17:38:07 sometimes ye 17:38:20 (especially if it happens equally often in each direction) 17:38:41 One of my teachers has the tendency to accidentally reassign names 17:38:55 For example, he started calling me George for a couple of weeks once 17:39:35 the most extreme technique involves arbitrarily assigning a name to each of your students, then only using that name 17:39:51 and then one day you tell him your actual name, and he says "really? you look a lot like george" 17:39:54 -!- atriq has changed nick to Taneb. 17:40:37 `welcome back Taneb 17:40:39 back: Taneb: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) 17:41:28 `welcome A B C D 17:41:31 A: B: C: D: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) 17:41:32 back Taneb: are you any different from front Taneb? 17:41:40 haeY 17:42:32 I see 17:42:35 ?mih ees uoy ,rorrim a ni kool uoy nehw hguoht 17:42:35 Maybe you meant: bid id map msg 17:42:37 Re: telling people apart, I find it very hard to tell people apart if I meet them around the same time and haven't interacted uch with them 17:42:57 s/uch/much 17:43:02 / 17:43:51 (btw is the boardgamegeek down or something?) 17:44:29 I feel rather awkward when people come up to me and say, "Hey David, how are you doing?" and I can't remember ever seeing them before in my entire life 17:45:03 A few weeks ago, someone came up to me and said "Hey, Nathan! Hi-five!" 17:45:10 I gave him a hi-5 17:45:14 Never figured out who he was 17:45:19 when that happens I usually know that I know them, I just can't tell from where 17:45:39 soooo keep stalling the conversation until I can figure it out 17:45:54 Taneb: that was obviously me 17:45:59 Teachers used to talk about me behind my back 17:46:06 Taneb: are you actually called Nathan? 17:46:08 So they all knew who I was 17:46:10 I guess the story works both ways 17:46:12 ais523, yes, I am 17:46:13 But I didn't know them 17:46:19 i have been approached by multiple people to talk about the way i climb stairs 17:46:31 Phantom_Hoover, how do you climb stairs 17:46:31 Phantom_Hoover: is it particularly unusual? 17:46:36 Do they ever warn you about stairs? 17:46:42 Taneb: sometimes don't you feel sad that your name came so close from being a palydrome, but missed by one letter? 17:46:44 something to do with my arms, apparently 17:46:52 Arc_Koen, nah 17:46:56 admittedly, the method I got used to of descending a flight of stairs without using any of the individual stairs was a little unusual 17:47:25 I think it's a palindrome in the original Hebrew 17:47:40 well Hebrew doesn't write vowels, and th is presumably one letter 17:47:50 so it'd transliterate most accurately as nþn, which is a palindrom 17:47:52 *palindrome 17:48:22 ais523: Hebrew uses a different n at the end of a word. 17:48:25 yeah but then wouldn't you feel sad that the name came so close to being stable though 180° rotation 17:48:26 I don't know if you count that. 17:48:29 shachaf: hmm 17:48:33 I don't know if I count that either 17:48:33 wait, forget what I just said 17:48:39 I guess handwritten English uses a different s 17:48:46 and yet words can still be considered palindromes if they end and start with s 17:48:50 so I guess I don't count it 17:49:14 This is actually a different letter as in a different codepoint/keyboard key/etc. 17:49:41 Handwritten english uses a different s? 17:49:44 well it is in Greek too 17:50:02 ThatOtherPerson: actually, it's not at the end of the world 17:50:12 but after a point where you have to break the writing (like "g", except if you're French) 17:50:25 ohh, right 17:50:28 The end of the world? 17:50:30 the top of the s curls round to the bottom left if it's joining to something on the left 17:50:42 I think the only letter we write differently in french depending on its position is n 17:50:47 in France, it's usual (even when writing English) to connect the s to the previous letter regardless of anything 17:50:57 nothing is usual in france 17:51:03 Heh, I haven't used cursive since elementary school 17:51:05 yes, in france we connect everything 17:51:08 we like being connected 17:51:14 you can't do it for the first letter of a word, though, I guess 17:51:14 shame on you ThatOtherPerson 17:51:18 yup 17:51:18 :D 17:51:22 that's why the n is different 17:51:35 if in the first position it looks more like a script n 17:51:36 Arc_Koen: what context does n change in? 17:51:39 oh, first position 17:51:58 ThatOtherPerson: I once went several months in a row without writing anything 17:52:09 I use computers so much more than pencil/paper 17:52:17 if it's in the middle or end of a word the thingy goes down to the left so it looks like two bridges instead of just the one 17:52:18 But yeah, in Hebrew Nathan is Nun-Tav-Nun? 17:53:11 -!- oklopol has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 17:53:16 that's not a palyndrom! 17:53:20 that would be nun-vat-nun 17:53:34 Arc_Koen, I'm giving the names of the letters 17:54:01 Taneb, I'm giving a joke (you can find the name of that joke yourself) 17:54:15 Yes, spelled נתן 17:54:40 נתן according to google translate 17:55:02 :O 17:55:22 According to Google Translate, "David" is a palindrome in Hebrew 17:55:26 דוד 17:55:40 ThatOtherPerson, the wikipedia page for "Nathan (given name)" on Wikipedia has a picture of Nathan talking to David 17:55:46 Obviously we were meant for eachother 17:55:54 obviously 17:56:17 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 17:56:31 -!- FreeFull has joined. 17:56:47 ThatOtherPerson: Now try "uncle" and "water heater". 17:57:09 shachaf: you can't do that, it's illegal! 17:57:18 ais523: ? 17:57:21 I'm an uncle??? 17:57:43 Hmm, better, "boiler". 17:58:16 * boily points to himself ← 17:58:19 (These are pronounced "dod" and "dud" respectively.) 17:58:27 this is so weird 17:58:29 (That's "dud" as in "dude" but short. Not as in a dud.) 17:58:57 btw, had snow today 17:59:00 Taneb, ^ 17:59:05 Whoa 17:59:07 I did not 17:59:11 We had a sort of drizzle 17:59:19 Fo' shizzle. 17:59:19 I seem to remember you complain about snow a few weeks ago :P 17:59:23 Vorpal: you live in Scandinavia 17:59:24 that's cheating 17:59:28 I don't think it's snowed where I am for several hundred years 17:59:30 ais523, XD 17:59:32 there was sleet in Birmingham a couple of days ago 17:59:34 if it has at all 17:59:42 ais523, well the spring is rather late this year 17:59:58 We're in about the fifth spring of the year 18:00:04 It's getting ridiculous 18:00:07 ThatOtherPerson, approx where is that? 18:00:29 Vorpal: Ras Tanura, Saudi Arabia 18:00:42 which wikipedia just told me means "cape oven" ... 18:00:54 heh 18:01:04 ~metar OERT 18:01:05 --- Station not found! 18:01:13 yeah I don't think it snowed there any time recently 18:01:14 ~metar OEDF 18:01:15 OEDF 191700Z 34008KT CAVOK 19/10 Q1012 NOSIG 18:01:17 wait what bit is that 18:01:32 oh hmm, metasepia is somehow connected with radio 18:01:40 ~metar ESOE 18:01:40 ESOE 191750Z 06018KT 9999 FEW021 BKN026 M05/M10 Q1014 RESN 18:01:47 this makes it very slightly less mysterious 18:01:55 -!- carado has quit (Quit: Quitte). 18:02:10 I could ask what it does, but that would feel like a copout 18:02:24 I like my bot mysterious. 18:02:29 boily, wait, OEDF has the temperature in farenheit doesn't it? My metar is rusty 18:02:59 ~metar NZSP 18:02:59 NZSP 191750Z 15012KT 4800 IC BR BKN010 OVC050 M50/ A2824 RMK CLN AIR 14009KT ALL WNDS GRID 18:03:04 I assume OEDF stands for "Oxford English Dictionary: French edition" 18:03:14 Vorpal: it wouldn't make no sense. everything is SI, except for north american metars, where there are some customary units mixed in. 18:03:25 boily, if you know what "ALL WNDS GRID" means I would really like to know 18:03:29 Taneb: OEDF is king fahd airport, at damam. 18:03:33 boily, oh right, M was minus 18:03:34 right 18:03:35 :P 18:03:36 Vorpal: no idea. 18:03:38 boily, I forgot 18:03:42 Taneb, no, it's the oxford english defence force 18:03:54 they're a paramilitary prescriptivist organisation 18:03:55 boily, I suspect it means they use a different coordinate system, since NZSP is the south pole 18:04:03 Did you ever add a IATA to ICAO converter, boily?@ 18:04:21 boily, and thus long/lat, as well as compass directions get a bit wonky 18:04:52 Taneb: no, not yet. besides, another checklist item should be to have an official metasepia suggestion checklist. 18:04:56 Taneb, does anyone use anything except ICAO? 18:05:00 Phantom_Hoover: some regions of some countries take preserving their language very seriously 18:05:02 (e.g. Quebec) 18:05:06 :D 18:05:26 true, but QEDF is hard to say 18:05:40 Taneb, I mean for weather. Obviously IATA is used for luggage or whatever 18:05:42 -!- tos9 has left. 18:05:47 we have the OQLF, which is the same thing. 18:06:36 incidentally, the region Microsoft asks for "country or region" when signing up 18:06:43 boily, I like the M50/ temperature of NZSP. 18:06:47 Vorpal, my dad works in the air industry and keeps using IATA codes so I learn them easuer 18:06:48 it makes me happy I'm elsewhere 18:06:49 is in order to avoid implying anything about border disputes (which annoys several countries) 18:06:49 is it just me or are the french really bitter that english is the lingua franca now 18:07:12 e.g. it avoids offending Taiwan, whilst also avoiding offending the mainland Chinese government by implying that Taiwan is a country 18:07:47 Phantom_Hoover, I think it's just that the french and the english have got on with eachother for a grand total of maybe 4 years in the last 1000 18:07:51 -!- hagb4rd has joined. 18:07:58 -!- aloril has joined. 18:08:04 the french are really better any time there's any suggestion that they are not the greatest ever 18:08:10 really bitter 18:08:25 Taneb: the french and english are on decent terms atm 18:08:39 also they were on pretty good terms during the world wars 18:08:45 i think it's a testament to how awful the english are that scotland was able to find common ground with france over them 18:08:48 ais523, BUT HOW LONG WILL IT LAST 18:08:50 but yes, lots of fighting further into history 18:08:51 Also hyperbole 18:09:11 Phantom_Hoover: to be fair, it's reasonable for scotland to consider england to be awful 18:09:13 we used to invade repeatedly 18:09:19 even when we had no realistic chance of winning 18:09:28 because… actually I don't know why 18:09:54 it is basically impossible to invade scotland 18:09:57 indeed 18:09:59 eventually you just get bored and go home 18:10:04 ais523, they set fire to the church in Hexham 18:10:06 Three times 18:10:17 Taneb: who, the english or scots or both? 18:10:17 good on them 18:10:25 The scots 18:10:26 Vorpal: ? 18:10:36 ? 18:10:40 ?? 18:10:43 ??? 18:10:46 ???? 18:10:50 Stop 18:10:56 Vorpal, is this because it's an english church or just because it's a church 18:10:59 potS 18:11:30 Okay, I'm wrong 18:11:34 The first time it was the Danes 18:12:19 Phantom_Hoover, well, considering the horrible deeds committed in the names of the church through the history, and how boring the English church is supposed to be, I would say both 18:12:28 ahahahahahahahaha 18:12:32 Ah, I live in a country that's never been conquered, if you ignore the four or so times it was conquered 18:12:34 Vorpal: that's a weird correlation, really 18:12:44 so the church is terrible because they do all sorts of fascinatingly awful thing 18:12:51 the anglican church is inded reasonably boring 18:12:53 Phantom_Hoover, WHILE BEING BORING! 18:13:03 and it's terrible because they're renowned for being meek to a fault 18:13:07 and as a result is quite low on the scale of spectacular religious misdeeds 18:13:13 Wee. 18:13:17 yeah, Phantom_Hoover is commenting on the same thing as me 18:13:18 Phantom_Hoover, yes. totally logical 18:13:28 our church is so boring that when the state really separated itself from the church, it was called «révolution tranquille». 18:13:32 I'm going to attempt a bfjoust evolver one more time, this time, trying something that'll hopefully make it not suck. 18:13:42 Lymia: I'm interested 18:13:44 Good luck, Lymia 18:13:51 anyway isn't the "boring anglican church" relatively modern 18:13:59 as in, the past few hundred years or so 18:14:06 Vorpal: perhaps 18:14:18 they settled down once they finished persecuting the catholics 18:14:19 ais523, the main difference is that I'm going to be trying to basically evolve a code generator, rather than the code itself. It might work better? 18:14:22 there was certainly a lot of religious strife between catholics and protestants during Tudor times 18:14:25 I don't have the mutation itertation coded yet. 18:14:27 Erm. 18:14:28 selection* 18:14:34 this lead to a law in the UK, which still stands, which prevents Catholics becoming monarchs 18:14:47 recently the EU told us to get rid of it because it was religious discrimination, or something 18:14:49 (meanwhile the mainland catholic church became crazy polarised, presumably due to evaporative cooling) 18:14:58 Lymia: seems interesting 18:16:08 ais523, I don't remember seeing that on the front page of the Express 18:16:19 Taneb: do you read the Express every day? 18:16:25 Just the front page 18:16:55 elliott: you know haskell help me 18:16:55 why? 18:17:19 coppro: hi 18:17:19 elliott: why does the expression problem suck 18:17:26 I read the front pages of a lot of newspapers 18:17:54 elliott: specifically, why is it hard to say I have a class Foo, and refine it to class Bar, but then if I have a Foo I can't reasonably tell if it's a Bar 18:18:31 What is "a Foo"? 18:18:43 a type that is an instance of Foo 18:18:44 that's not really anything to do with the expression problem IMO (and the expression problem is more an expression of inherent constraints -- coding behaviour vs. coding data -- than something you can solve)... on a technical level it would violate parametricity 18:18:51 but in general I'm sceptical of typeclass hierarchies like that 18:19:01 What is "refine"? A subclass? 18:19:02 this lead to a law in the UK, which still stands, which prevents Catholics becoming monarchs // aren't there much BIGGER obstacles X-D 18:19:03 elliott: what would you generally propose instead? 18:19:18 Gregor: well it's not always trivial to work out 18:19:26 some time after tony blair resigned 18:19:30 it became public that he was catholic 18:19:37 and the press were gloating over this for no apparent reason 18:19:40 ais523: didn't he convert? 18:19:45 I thought he converted, yeah 18:19:54 hmm, perhaps 18:20:05 coppro: also how do you know this stuff, you aren't even british 18:20:18 ais523: I follow foreign news occasionally 18:20:33 coppro: well, that type of design is something I associate more with OOP type stuff (although even then instanceof type things tend to be discouraged), so it really depends on the probelm, there's no generic mapping of designs... I usually start with modelling my problem with plain old data (sometimes this data is a record of behaviour: functions, monadic actions etc.) before going to typeclasses 18:20:47 hmm 18:21:38 I'm trying to model some parliamentary procedure, and I think a typeclass for motions is most appropriate because it's extensible. But then subclasses become awkward, for instance, the motion to amend. 18:21:43 Population generation, check. 18:21:45 Evaluation, check. 18:21:46 Mutation, check. 18:21:52 Now for the "fun" part v.v; 18:22:09 coppro: a typeclass in no more or less extensible than data, in general 18:22:15 you might want to see 18:22:18 @where existential-typeclass-antipattern 18:22:18 I know nothing about existential-typeclass-antipattern. 18:22:22 aw come on 18:22:23 @where antipattern 18:22:23 http://lukepalmer.wordpress.com/2010/01/24/haskell-antipattern-existential-typeclass/ 18:22:26 thanks 18:22:31 @where existential-antipattern 18:22:31 "Haskell Antipattern: Existential Typeclass" by Luke Palmer at 18:22:38 also I think the FAQ talks about data representation along thesel ines 18:22:39 @where faq 18:22:39 http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/FAQ 18:22:40 `ski-style' 18:22:42 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ski-style': not found 18:22:43 elliott: instead of instanceof, you can have an abstract getter method that returns what sort of class it is 18:22:45 that doesn't break anything 18:23:16 (in general, the answer to "how do I do dubious OO operation X without violating Y" is "use more abstract") 18:24:22 elliott: that makes a lot of sense 18:24:41 I don't think existential so-and-so is as much of an antipattern as people claim. 18:24:45 But sometimes it's way misused. 18:24:49 elliott: but the problem is still one of "I have fields which are not applicable to all versions of the type" 18:25:04 and filling things up with undefineds seems poor 18:25:24 coppro: huh, this is close to the problem Anarchy is intended to solve 18:25:35 well, you can just use Maybe if it's "really" that simple. or perhaps better: another data type which contains (aggregation, in OOP terms) the subset that all satisfy, as well as the additional information 18:26:00 incidentally, algol 68 has an undefined-like value 18:26:06 except it's not guaranteed to throw an error 18:26:15 it's just an arbitrary value of whatever type it's expected to be a value of 18:26:26 ais523: the second is not useful. I'm unsure about Anarchy since I don't know what it is 18:26:49 coppro: it's an unfinished esolang, which may be theoretically impossible 18:27:40 elliott: yeah, I might go with a sub-data-type 18:27:42 I hope Feather compiles into it 18:27:44 and just have it stored in a Maybe 18:27:54 but it *does* raise the question of whether there is a typeclass equivalent 18:27:54 that's inverse to what I was thinking 18:27:56 Or you could use a super-data type? 18:28:06 instead of data S = S { ..., t :: Maybe T }, data T = ... 18:28:07 you can have 18:28:15 data S = S { ... }, data T = T { s :: S, ... } 18:28:20 elliott: oh, no, that doesn't work though 18:28:25 because then I can't recover the T from the S 18:28:26 then s projects out your S from your T 18:28:40 yes, but generally you shouldn't want to... it's too situation-specific to really say though 18:28:52 You could with lenses 18:29:54 data S = S { ... }; data T = T { _s :: s, ...}; makeLenses ''T; thisT & s %~ modifyS 18:30:21 haskell still scares me 18:30:28 same here 18:30:37 Taneb: that doens't solve the homogenous container problem 18:30:46 Bah 18:31:02 Maybe may be the way to go 18:31:07 there is no homogenous container problem. every heterogeneous container is a homogeneous container where the underlying interface is being hidden 18:31:21 elliott: the problem is that the underlying heterogeneity needs to be preserved 18:34:05 ThatOtherPerson, it's not that scary, it just allows you to abuse the type system more so than any other language 18:34:05 Even more so if you enable some GHC extensions 18:34:17 -!- carado has joined. 18:34:30 we can make an esolang that allows you to abuse it more 18:34:49 but I would have to know Haskell to know what that even means 18:34:58 That would blur the line between esolang and research language 18:35:17 Taneb: that's a great line to blur 18:35:23 True, true 18:35:30 in fact, those are way better than esolangs designed to be useless 18:35:30 ThatOtherPerson: that's just called Agda really 18:35:37 oh, I forgot about Agda 18:35:43 ThatOtherPerson: yeah, definitely check out Agda 18:35:59 probably don't check out agda if haskell scares you. 18:36:03 everyone deserves to be allowed to experience it at least one 18:36:04 *once 18:36:08 elliott: yeah but with agda it's OK to be scared 18:36:20 ais523: larrytheliquid went straight from Ruby to Agda! 18:36:28 things like people, in practice, normally requiring their editor to do type inference 18:36:33 in order to be able to write it 18:39:02 elliott: btw, the tdwtf forums seem to have a new troll: http://forums.thedailywtf.com/forums/t/27342.aspx 18:39:07 or maybe not troll 18:39:10 person who is out of place 18:39:33 -!- epicmonkey has joined. 18:39:47 ok 18:40:02 Agda vs Idris 18:40:36 ais523, is he saying things like "m/f" and "what country r u"? 18:41:04 Taneb: no 18:41:11 if you're interested you can follow the link 18:41:23 Yeah, I did 18:41:24 it's hard to describe 18:41:32 It looks like fungot decided to visit the fora 18:41:32 Taneb: er. they are independent just loop over them for each time the programmer writes in-range deep inside the kernel without messing up the mechanics." 18:42:17 Taneb: it doesn't seem so markov chain to me 18:42:31 they're trying to edit the credits for mozilla, the responsible person is ignoring them 18:42:38 so they're asking how they can get the responsible person to stop ignoring them 18:43:10 Heh 18:43:32 I somehow got convinced the OP was joe.edwards 18:43:47 huh, Humble Bundle are trying to sell me a game I already own, and that they know I already own because they sold it to me 18:44:00 so buy it again 18:44:13 past performance is the best predictor of future performance 18:49:07 Chrome version history table; "24 -- Support for MathML -- 25 -- Disabled MathML support for the time being". The Chrome gives, the Chrome takes away. 18:50:05 ais523: To be fair, they're also explaining the whole new weekly-deal scheme while they're doing it. 18:50:21 fizzie: I guess 18:50:33 if they're going to spam me every week, though, I'm going to unsubscribe 18:50:39 and possibly miss other things they want to send me 18:51:33 I don't think they're going to do that. Or at the very least they'd perhaps make the "announce every weekly sale" mailing opt-out-or-in. 18:51:40 I hate electro-static discharges. 18:52:09 -!- Bike has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 18:52:10 They're also selling some merchandise you might not already own. 18:52:21 yes but I'm not so interested in Bastion merchandise 18:52:37 The internal battery in my Pokemon Emerald has died 18:53:28 Taneb: that's usual around now 18:53:38 It's sad though 18:53:39 sadly, unlike in Ruby/Sapphire, it doesn't make it any easier to rig the RNG 18:53:41 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa). 18:55:43 Taneb has died again, it seems. 18:56:10 -!- Bike has joined. 18:56:29 Speaking with things with counters, there's this Finnish version of the "We the People" petitions -- if a petition gets over 50k signatures, the parliament needs to... uh, at least officially look at it -- and they opened the petition for making the laws about marriage gender-neutral; it's gotten 91433 signatures in the 21 hours it's been open, which is probably several magnitudes faster than ... 18:56:35 ... all the other such petitions. (Thus far only one has ever gone over the 50k mark.) 18:56:59 niiice 18:57:02 It'll probably get deleted for cheating 18:57:43 It's run by the gummint and they do strong (FSVO strong) authentication, so hopefully it's not that likely to be spurious. 18:57:53 fizzie: do you think it's been hacked? or just that it's a really major hot topic? 18:57:59 istr all the uk parliament petitions were p. dumb 18:58:02 there aren't 91,433 people in finland, though. 18:58:11 so something is up. 18:58:27 the only one i remember was that all the rioters should be hanged, or perhaps just given some kind of jail sentence 18:58:48 `? istr 18:58:49 istr? ¯\(°_o)/¯ 18:58:50 ais523: I think it's legit, though the rate of new signatures has been curiously constant -- see the yellow line in http://ypcs.fi/tahdon2013/ -- but maybe there's a technical reason for that. 18:58:53 ~duck istr 18:58:53 --- No relevant information 18:59:00 what is istr? 18:59:07 i seem to recall 18:59:16 ah. 18:59:35 IIRC, but glued to the other sentence end. 18:59:55 Phantom_Hoover: A majority of the petitions on the Finnish site are pretty dumb too. 19:00:29 the one with the most signatures is "stop the badger cull" 19:00:40 the runner up is to keep all the bulgarians and romanians out 19:01:00 Also, http://kannatusilmoitukset.fi/ -- another graph-page only in Finnish -- plots the history of all of them, hourly; the almost-vertical blue line at the end is the marriage equality thing. 19:01:03 iirc like 90% of the petitions were about arresting and/or hanging people and/or just generally being a little bit more 19th century if you please 19:01:14 i don't know where 19 came from there 19:01:19 that must be the long tail 19:01:20 let's just say the 19th century was the worst century 19:01:35 but the 14th 19:01:58 Many of the other petitions have also gotten small bumps during today, too, presumably because people, after bothering to verify themselves to the system, have gone and poked several. 19:02:57 hmm, no, the rioters one is "Convicted London rioters should loose all benefits." 19:03:35 Phantom_Hoover: the worrying part is that the benefits system is so used to complexity that implementing that would probably cost less than it saves 19:03:43 -!- Lymia has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 19:03:58 *more, presumably 19:04:00 and yes 19:04:06 Phantom_Hoover: no, less was intentional 19:04:10 read the rest of the sentence 19:04:32 ohhh 19:04:33 clever 19:04:48 on the topic of benefits 19:04:50 are we going to draw and quarter someone 19:05:10 however, it seems to me likely to be a bad idea to take a bunch of people who are already shown to be entirely willing to break the law and cause widespread property damage, and decide to cut off any legal means for them to obtain food and shelter 19:05:12 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-21846817 damn immigrants coming over here and sponging off our hospitals and schools 19:05:45 Phantom_Daily_Mail 19:05:47 at that point, they have no logical reason not to go on a widespread looting spree 19:05:51 as an alternative to starving 19:05:54 http://24.media.tumblr.com/aa4cdb56d9a1457f4f3d748cb85d1831/tumblr_mjigpgqsqV1qm9r09o1_400.jpg ooh 19:06:41 kmc: not sure if you read the story, but the BBC is apparently in favour of that particular immigrant 19:06:56 The Finnish top 10 list contains, in order: 1) the marriage thing; 2) a petition to ban energy drinks for people under 16 years old; 3) one to fix the copyright legislation; 4) one to legalize use and posession of cannabis; 5) one to kill more top predators (to summarize); 6) one to arrange a vote on whether Finland should get out of the EU; 7) one about revamping the social security rules to ... 19:07:02 ... have a fixed base income for everyone; 8) one to make learning Swedish non-mandatory; 9) one to get rid of DST; and 10) one about something to do with shooting ranges and their environmental impact. 19:07:05 Bike: eeeeh... what are those? 19:07:11 tunicates! 19:07:14 fizzie, can i sign 8 19:07:17 predatory ones 19:07:58 Phantom_Hoover: Only if you can also vote in Finland. 19:08:07 fizzie, will you sign 8 for me 19:08:10 i read "use and possession of cannibals" for a second, that sounds more exciting 19:08:36 what's the average cost for a 3½ in Helsinki? 19:09:18 Bike: I think "legalize weed" is going to be very popular in many such petition systems. (Except perhaps if it's already legal in the place.) 19:09:30 obviously 19:09:37 I don't know what a 3½ is. 19:09:57 floppy disk standard? 19:09:58 my penis size 19:10:03 half a 7 19:10:42 I think I can vote in Finland! 19:10:45 fizzie: that's how we designate appartment sizes. a 3½ is: one living room, one bedroom, one kitchen and one bathroom (the ½). 19:10:48 Though I've yet to do so. 19:10:58 fizzie: those sound a lot better than ours, really :/ 19:11:02 I am fairly certain I cannot vote in Finland. 19:11:06 I think last I heard they were voting up one for a death star 19:11:31 I,I http://www.theonion.com/articles/opposition-to-soda-ban-sad-proof-that-americans-st,31658/ 19:11:32 Fiora: https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/response/isnt-petition-response-youre-looking 19:11:36 boily: Oh; we'd call that a "kaksio" (approx. a "double") since it has two rooms -- the livingroom and the bedroom -- that really count. 19:11:50 i liked that one whitehouse petition 19:11:54 boily: The one with a living room and two bedrooms is a "kolmio", lit. "a triangle". 19:12:04 ThatOtherPerson: that response is actually wonderful 19:12:09 "We demand a vapid, condescending, meaningless, politically safe response to this petition." 19:12:11 :D 19:12:20 fizzie: neat. 19:12:56 * Fiora had no idea http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_Probe%2B existed, that is really cool! 19:13:08 I love the fact that force fields actually exist 19:13:10 even if they're mostly impractical 19:13:42 ais523: which type are you referring to? Gravity? 19:13:55 ThatOtherPerson: some sort of plasma thing 19:13:58 I wonder how much power they get from the solar arrays at that distance 19:13:59 i thought that said 'solar probe b' and then i confused it with gravity probe b 19:14:06 but that is also cool 19:14:10 %2B is +, I think 19:14:11 boily: Anyhow, the price range inside Helsinki varies really much depending on location (and other kind of things), but I picked a random ad from one of the major websites, for a 50 m^2 two-rooms-plus-open-kitchen-and-bathroom in a reasonably central location, and that's 250000 EUR. 19:14:21 solar probe+ is a stupid name though 19:14:46 boily: If you meant "to buy" as opposed to "to rent", that is. 19:15:07 i was hoping the %2B was a ! 19:15:09 Solar Probe! 19:15:23 no ! is %21 19:15:32 it's the first visible printable character 19:15:34 -!- Taneb has joined. 19:15:59 i also felt very cheated when i found out SOHO isn't actually anywhere near the sun 19:16:00 shut up ais523. you cannot ruin Space Probe! for me 19:16:04 Fiora: Well, it was the top ten. The bottom ten is pretty stupid, for example. 19:16:16 because all the space books i had as a child drew it as being really close 19:16:23 Radixal!!!! 19:17:20 Radixal!!!! is an esoteric language created collaboratively by the #esoteric IRC channel on 7 December Category:2012. 19:17:24 i like the category: 19:17:31 ais523: ah, when you said that I was reminded of this: http://gizmodo.com/5044624/ultrasound-haptic-devices-can-project-tactile-shapes-into-thin-air 19:17:32 ais523: Oh, and the 3½" floppies seem to retail at about 0.50 EUR/piece if you buy a box of 10. (Verbatim 3.5" MF2HD DataLife brand.) 19:17:59 http://techcrunch.com/2008/09/03/haptic-system-uses-ultrasound-to-give-feel-to-objects-that-aren%E2%80%99t-there/ 19:18:03 fizzie: I don't think I asked the question, but still interesting to know 19:18:07 that's rather more expensive than it used to be 19:18:16 but given that they're much more of a specialist item nowadays, that's not surprising 19:18:34 ais523: You suggested that 3½ meant a floppy disk standard, which sort of implies a question, even if it doesn't ask it. 19:18:39 fizzie: I'm more interested by the "rent". besides, how much is 50m² in square feet? 19:18:56 boily: there are 3¼ feet in a metre 19:19:01 @google 50 square meters in square feet 19:19:02 538.195521 square feet 19:19:02 http://www.metric-conversions.org/area/square-meters-to-square-feet-table.htm 19:19:02 Title: Square Meters to Square Feet table 19:19:09 so 50×3¼² 19:19:09 boily: Around 538. 19:19:46 ais523: 3¼² is sufficiently close to 10 in order for 10 to be good enough for an order-of-magnitude conversions. 19:20:02 boily: Let's see a rent, then. 19:20:07 ~523 ft² 19:20:07 --- Possible commands: dice, duck, echo, eval, fortune, metar, ping, yi 19:20:09 ais523: 3¼⅕9 19:20:17 its pi 19:20:30 omg pi 19:20:48 copimpkin 19:20:50 ais523: Also, the store I checked is only selling that single brand of 3½" floppies; they used to have more of a selection, before. 19:20:52 Hmm, that doesn't quite work. 19:20:57 copumpkin pi 19:21:01 fungot: What are your orders, master? 19:21:02 ThatOtherPerson: my client agrees with foxfire's. here's something for you 19:21:54 fungot: Why thank you. I'd be delighted to help you with your client's request. 19:21:55 ThatOtherPerson: getting another error now ;can't bind name in null syntactic environment as system-global-env's parent. 19:22:01 my dad used to swear by his belief that pi was exactly 22/7 19:22:27 fungot: Try rebooting the machine. 19:22:27 ThatOtherPerson: a political push to use one word for the first 19:22:52 boily: That seems to be around 1000-1500 EUR/month, for similar size in a similar place. You can go a lot cheaper by going further away from the city centre, naturally. 19:23:45 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitomagnetism 19:23:46 wit 19:23:48 *wait 19:24:04 does this mean if you have two things spinning in opposite directions they'll repel each other 19:24:08 because i think it means that 19:24:21 Well, maybe not a "lot", but down to 700-750 EUR/month or something. 19:24:45 that is expensive! 19:24:54 -!- nooodl has quit (Quit: Leaving). 19:25:23 There's a rather ridiculous bubble in housing prices when comparing Helsinki (and the surrounding region) to the rest of the country. 19:25:52 one day i will move to finland and become finnish 19:26:20 1 ⌿ 2 19:26:21 Good bye! 19:26:56 fizzie: in Montréal, a 3½ is around 500~800 $/month. 19:27:28 boily: How big is that "3½" in your units, then? 19:27:38 -!- ThatOtherPerson has quit (Quit: Leaving). 19:27:53 fizzie, did you vote for 8 btw 19:28:01 Phantom_Hoover: I didn't. *shame* 19:28:23 don't you want rid of the vile aftertaste of swede 19:28:29 fizzie: it's around 550 sq. ft., so a little bit larger than your heathen 50 m² :p 19:28:47 Phantom_Hoover: I've done all my mandatory Swedish already, so it's a matter of making sure everyone else gets to suffer too. 19:29:05 -!- oerjan has joined. 19:29:07 but fizzie think of the children 19:29:10 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 19:29:24 @google 550 sq. ft. in sq. m 19:29:25 51.096672 sq. meters 19:29:25 http://www.metric-conversions.org/area/square-meters-to-square-feet.htm 19:29:25 Title: Square Meters to Square Feet conversion 19:29:29 swedish is good for your health. you get to be able to order swedish food in swedish restaurants! 19:29:52 swedish restaurants generally don't serve swedish food though 19:29:55 order swedish fitta 19:31:12 helsinki is super expensive in all ways, isn't it 19:31:33 the worst cost is to your soul 19:31:43 boily: Our two-rooms-and-bathroom-and-really-tiny-kitchen place in the university student union housing was somewhere around 300-400 EUR/month, and it was... maybe 450 sq. feet. But of course that's quite different than renting from the open market. 19:32:05 http://sfist.com/2013/03/07/map_average_rent_for_1br_in_san_fra.php 19:32:20 Cale is giving a monad tutorial in #haskell-in-depth 19:32:24 what has the world come to 19:32:25 nooooo 19:32:34 doesn't the topic say "NO MONAD TUTORIALS" 19:32:37 that is literally the thing you're not supposed to talk about 19:32:50 kmc: I'm not sure how "super", compared to those really expensive places, but I understand it is quite pricy. 19:33:01 all monad tutorials all the time 19:33:05 the monad channel 19:33:19 monad tutorials, moproblems 19:33:33 kmc: I've banned two people in #haskell! little do they know my plan to slowly, gradually ban everyone in the universe. and then you can come back and it will be perfect. 19:33:41 yay 19:33:43 don't tell anyone it's secret. 19:33:50 have you banned cale 19:33:56 elliott: i will keep its secrecy secret 19:33:59 for not shutting the hell up about monads 19:34:22 monads are good. helsinki is good. everything is good, except monad tutorials. 19:34:32 (or maybe helsinki tutorials, but I haven't seen any of them yet.) 19:34:37 i'm not sure whether cost / area is a good metric for urban apartments 19:34:48 a "nad tutorial" seems sexual 19:35:01 kmc would not come back to #haskell if he was the last person on earth 19:35:13 i might 19:35:16 i used to go to #haskell 19:35:20 worst time of my life 19:35:36 one time i went to #haskell and now i only have one kidney 19:35:58 That's one kidney more than the average bicycle. 19:36:56 what he didn't say is that he started with three kidneys, all to himself. 19:37:18 i DESERVED those kidneys you fuckers 19:37:19 people pay for location more than space 19:37:31 #haskell robs the rich and gives to the poor 19:37:44 so I think cost / bedrooms is better, because that's effectively how much you can split it 19:37:52 even that is tricky 19:38:02 The only visualization about apartment prices in Helsinki I could find is about the average price to buy per square metre (which goes from 500 to 5000 depending on the city region), but that of course depends somewhat on the distribution of apartment sizes in the location. 19:38:17 in NY there are a lot of listings for "flex 3BR" which means "2BR and you could put a shitty temporary wall in the living room and get a third bedroom if you are OK with having almost no living room" 19:39:54 Some of the new places they're building around here have a designed-in place for an optional divider wall if you want to split half of the living room into an extra bedroom. 19:40:34 It's marked with a dashed line in the plans they give in the brochure. 19:40:45 funny to see how across languages the same apartment is mapped to different digits. 3½ in French, kaksio in Finnish and 1BR in English. 19:41:59 boily: it reminds me of floor numbering 19:42:07 in the UK, floor "1" is the floor above the ground floor 19:42:19 in areas with a lot of foreign visitors, the ground floor is typically numbered "0" to reduce confusion to some extent 19:43:56 Buildings should be sunk into the ground in such a way so there is a floor that is halfway in 19:44:01 And that would be the 0th floor 19:44:01 -!- Taneb has joined. 19:44:07 Neither above, nor below 19:44:14 FreeFull: that sort of thing is quite common in the UK too 19:44:25 Our set of words go "yksiö" (single-person apartment, usually in a single room + bathroom, but not always), "kaksio" (generally childless couples; bedroom, living room, plus the mandatory stuff), "kolmio" (two bedrooms, living room, and the rest; most common size to get after the first child), "neliö" (ditto but three bedrooms) -- those all have roots in the cardinal numbers, "yksi", ... 19:44:31 ... "kaksi", "kolme", "neljä" -- and then it kind of stops, and for larger places you probably just give room counts. 19:44:38 there are multiple buildings in central birmingham with two ground floors that have another floor between them (which might or might not also be a ground floor) 19:44:39 They do have a set of standard abbreviations for apartment ads, though. 19:44:48 due to it being so inconsistent in terms of height 19:45:45 Like "3H+K+KPH" is "three rooms plus kitchen plus bathroom", and so on; so you can just use those for larger places. 19:46:07 but is the apartment specification language turing-complete 19:46:42 3H+K+KPHQ9+ 19:46:58 I don't think it is. Not that I speak it fluently. 19:47:06 I'm not sure what this "P" is, for example. 19:47:27 push onto the stack 19:48:04 the stack of discarded furniture 19:48:13 And there's this 250 square metre (2690 sq.ft.) place -- for rent, 2600 EUR/month -- that's described with "5 h, k, rt, th, ask.h, kh, wc, sauna". 19:49:14 That's "5 rooms, kitchen, something, something (maybe office room?), craft room, probably-bathroom, toilet, sauna". 19:49:15 you can get your own private sauna in your own app.? wooooah... 19:49:30 fizzie: how much for a lake 19:49:35 boily: There are private saunas in really tiny apartments here. 19:50:16 i guess it should not be the least bit surprising that the Finnish word for "sauna" is "sauna" 19:50:18 boily: Like, many of your 3½'s have this tiny can-fit-maybe-three-people-if-they-don't-mind-sitting-on-someone's-lap closet-saunas, for example. 19:50:54 boily: I can't quite give a percentage, but at least for new apartments, it certainly seems like the majority of them have saunas. 19:51:24 * boily 's eyes shine like an infatuated anime character in front of the most beautiful thing in the world. 19:54:06 None of the places I've lived in -- discounting back when I lived with my parents -- have had a per-apartment sauna, but that's just me. 19:55:05 In apartment buildings that don't have per-apartment saunas, I'd guesstimate at least 90% of them have a shared sauna for which you can reserve a one-hour slot per week. 19:57:03 Admittedly one hour is sort of not long enough to even get started, for a serious sauna-goer. 19:57:08 (Practical tip: the last slot of the day is nice, because then you don't have to hurry out in case someone's coming.) 19:57:52 our saunas have a warning that you should just spend 5 mins in them, up to probably 15 mins if you're an expert. 19:58:04 I think our sauna culture *may* be a tad different... 19:58:24 they may be hotter than the finnish ones 19:58:38 that sounds implausible 19:58:55 that sounds really implausible. 19:58:59 ais523: I think a reasonable sauna temperature here is around 80°C. 19:59:42 I hear boily likes it at 100°. 19:59:43 But of course you go out (trad. to have a cold beer from the lake, and also to offer the mosquitoes a snack) quite often; then you repeat. 19:59:49 I thought sauners were well above 100 19:59:53 sauners 19:59:58 err, I'm tired 20:00:05 I'm more likely to type phonetically when tired 20:00:20 Britishly phonetic. 20:00:21 that's p. rhotic 20:00:41 Do you mean non-rhotic? 20:01:00 ais523: Well, 80-100°C, maybe; e.g. the competition things go higher than that, but that's not really for relaxing. 20:01:12 there are sauna competitions? 20:01:14 It's somewhat a matter of taste. 20:01:28 ais523: I think they stopped after some people died, actually. 20:01:33 ais523: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Sauna_Championships 20:01:39 I think they don't really do them officially anymore. 20:01:46 can I addquote that? I want to 20:01:53 just because it blows my mind 20:01:56 "The Championships were first held in 1999 and grew to feature contestants from over 20 countries. Sauna bathing at extreme conditions is a severe health risk: all competitors competed at their own risk, and had to sign a form agreeing not to take legal action against the organizers. Notably, the Finnish Sauna Society strongly opposed the event. After the death of one finalist and near-death ... 20:02:02 ... of another during the 2010 championship, the organizers announced that they would not hold another." 20:02:38 I like Wikipedia's style of presenting facts next to each other and not drawing the obvious conclusion 20:02:56 They start at 110°C (which I'd consider "pretty hot" for a sauna), and pour half a liter of water on the stove every 30 seconds, and the last person to walk out without outside help is the winner. 20:03:04 (If they carry your body out, it doesn't count.) 20:03:29 so why do people compete in this? 20:03:39 is it purely drawn from the pool of people who will do absolutely anything? 20:03:57 (the pool has a tendency to shrink as they accidentally kill themselves in bizarre ways) 20:04:10 It's a very common to do the same thing, except less formally, to prove your toughness. 20:04:23 ais523: the pool, it is very large. 20:04:26 huh, this is actually an argument in favour of reality TV shows 20:04:32 It's kind of shameful to be the first one out of a sauna, for example. 20:04:44 Depending on the sort of company you keep, of course. 20:04:51 they draw such people away from things that will likely kill them, and into activities that will merely ruin their life 20:05:40 As I understand it, in some countries you're not allowed to pour water on the sauna stove. 20:05:48 Which is an integral part of the thing in Finland. 20:06:16 do you actually do the jumping into ice cold water afterwarsdsthing 20:06:31 elliott: I don't, personally, but many people do. 20:07:05 The closest body of water from here is a bit far, anyway. 20:07:24 fizzie: what do you mean by "body of water"? 20:07:35 like, there are several pretty near reservoirs 20:07:36 ais523: Lake, sea, that kind of thing. 20:07:41 even though I live nowhere near the coast 20:07:49 -!- nooodl has joined. 20:07:55 although jumping into a reservoir would get you into trouble in the UK 20:08:13 ais523: Yes, well, if it's not right next to the sauna, it's possibly kind of awkward to run naked through e.g. a city. 20:08:40 even in Finland? 20:08:58 In most places, yes. 20:09:49 In Otaniemi (the university campus) it'd possibly be okay. I've seen a few naked people around there. 20:10:14 Though normally you'd just go to a sauna built next to water. 20:10:32 is it possible to build a sauna underwater? 20:10:36 so you'd cool off as you swam out? 20:10:37 The idea (AIUI) is to get a high temperature gradient, after all, so you need to minimize the sauna-to-water time. 20:10:52 It doesn't sound physically impossible, but I've never heard of one. 20:11:04 huh, this is actually an argument in favour of reality TV shows <-- don't you mean an argument _against_? we're preventing cleaning of the gene pool here! 20:11:04 oerjan: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it. 20:11:31 There are a couple of saunas on wheels that you could drive to any shore you like. 20:12:06 See e.g. https://www.google.com/search?q=sauna+auto&safe=off&tbm=isch 20:12:50 ais523: good, good 20:12:58 There was a very professional-looking (re build quality, finish, and so on) one around Otaniemi last summer. 20:13:27 now I'm imagining a sauna airship 20:13:32 on the topic of reality tv shows 20:13:40 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Ribbit). 20:13:43 there is presently one on channel 4 called bedtime: live 20:13:48 There are saunas on boats, I think. That gets quite close to water. 20:14:12 ais523, on the subject of jumping into reservoirs, you could probably get away with jumping into Kielder 20:14:16 p. sure someone wrote a short story in the 80s about this kind of thing 20:14:16 There are certainly sauns on the 12-deck Helsinki/Stockholm cruise ships, but that probably doesn't quite count. 20:14:42 Phantom_Hoover: that doesn't sound like a very interesting reality tv show 20:15:25 it's live coverage of parents trying to get their children to sleep 20:15:37 it is the most nihilistic thing i have ever seen 20:16:18 I think I feel sorry for their children 20:16:45 informed consent seems necessary for this sort of thing 20:16:59 and if someone is hard to persuade to go to sleep, they possibly aren't capable of giving informed consent 20:17:16 does that mean I'm incapable of giving informed consent? 20:17:21 it's pretty difficult to persuade me to go to sleep 20:17:30 elliott, go to sleep. 20:17:39 no 20:17:52 Please go to sleep, elliott. 20:17:58 fuck you 20:18:11 elliott: stay awake forever 20:18:13 you can do it 20:18:21 -!- oerjan has joined. 20:18:24 Based on personal experience, people are more likely to say "fuck you" to me while asleep 20:18:54 while you're asleep, or while they're asleep? 20:19:06 While they're asleep 20:19:31 I guess the main conclusion that can be drawn from this is that you're not generally disliked /and/ people have tendencies to have erotic fantasies about you 20:19:47 (I know someone who suffered from a head injury and so fell asleep really easily, while remaining pretty lucid, and she subconsciously hated me) 20:19:53 Also I understand many non-Finnish sauna cultures lack the part where you whip people? 20:21:05 fizzie: funny that 20:21:07 never got whipped in a sauna, at least not consciously. 20:21:30 I've never been in a sauna 20:21:37 the russian culture certainly doesn't 20:21:56 Saunas are those places where people cook themselves to death, right? 20:22:24 how the heck did you talk this much in just six hours. 20:22:53 oerjan, funnily enough, you have very little evidence any of us actually talked 20:23:04 I think Vorpal implied once that the whipping part was at least not ubiquitous in Sweden. 20:23:10 Wow, imagine if this was exclusively voice-chat 20:23:14 Taneb: yeah but convincingly faking the HackEgo logs would take just as much effort as actual talk 20:23:38 ais523, I'm referring to "flapping one's mouth open and closed" style talking 20:23:46 it's the kind of pointless effort this channel would go to, though! 20:23:49 fizzie, I would even say it isn't common here 20:23:58 even go as far as calling it rare 20:24:01 Taneb: oh 20:24:06 Bike: well yes 20:24:09 The place where I buy ice creams is closing :( 20:24:15 rip 20:24:22 So it goes. 20:24:28 elliott: do you know a closing ice cream shop nearby? 20:24:29 It was on the front page of the Hexham Courant 20:24:31 Based on personal experience, people are more likely to say "fuck you" to me while asleep 20:24:33 aniica vata sankhara 20:24:36 anicca 20:24:45 -!- oklopol has joined. 20:25:09 i choose to this to interpret this as Taneb sneaking into friends' rooms and listening to them sleep-talking about him 20:25:11 ais523: no 20:25:26 Phantom_Hoover, nah, I'm just a dick to narcoleptics 20:25:37 elliott: enough similar news events 20:25:44 and you can determine how far from Taneb you live via binary search 20:25:46 Taneb: Is Hexham Currant a type of a berry? 20:26:05 ais523, we live within 3 miles of eachother 20:26:12 There's not going to be that much difference 20:26:16 Taneb: is that the diameter of Hexham? 20:26:27 how do you know elliott lives in hexham proper 20:26:28 Hexham Currant Jam (occasionally called "Hexjam"), the breakfast toast complement of the discerning customer. 20:26:29 ais523: Hexham is kind of tiny 20:26:31 It's about twice the diameter of Hexham 20:26:32 there's not much we could deduce 20:26:36 our news is identical 20:26:57 elliott: well presumably either there's an ice-cream shop nearer to you than the one near Taneb, or you never buy ice-cream 20:27:00 -!- nooodl_ has joined. 20:27:13 you seem to be assuming there are more ice cream shops in hexham than there likely are 20:27:14 ais523, the one near me is pretty much in the middle of Hexham 20:27:18 And is a chocolate shop 20:27:24 It's a Thornton's 20:27:31 like there is no ice cream shop in hexham that could be so far away that it would not be close enough for a hexhamite to buy ice cream from it 20:27:38 oh that thing is closing 20:27:39 rip 20:27:49 elliott, there's Wheelbirk's, but that's not in Hexham 20:28:05 i have in fact not heard of that 20:28:21 It's near Ebchester I think 20:28:25 So way to the south 20:28:44 (by "way to the south", I mean about maybe 10 miles south max) 20:29:16 practically in cornwall 20:29:20 i should go to hexham 20:29:43 nooodl_, it's not that great 20:29:49 We've got an old church 20:29:53 And an old gaol 20:30:03 -!- nooodl has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 20:30:07 -!- nooodl_ has changed nick to nooodl. 20:30:07 Imaginatively named "The Old Gaol" 20:30:14 And a swimming pool 20:30:20 And at least two esolangers 20:30:31 The church -- if it's the one in the Wikipedia article main image -- looks rather impressive. 20:30:38 yes we don't have two churches 20:30:45 well 20:30:45 we do 20:30:49 but not two Churches 20:30:50 We have about 8 20:30:54 well 8 isn't 2 20:30:58 i hear the abbey is haunted(?) 20:30:58 wow it was burned in 875 20:30:59 elliott, how many live in Hexham? 20:31:00 approx 20:31:02 well i hear like evreywhere is haunted 20:31:05 Vorpal: like 10k-20k or something 20:31:06 sometimes i forget how fucking old everything in england is 20:31:08 it's tiny 20:31:10 wow hexham is huge 20:31:14 14k 20:31:15 iirc 20:31:18 elliott, so slightly less than the town I live in 20:31:18 11k 20:31:19 11446 - wikipedia 20:31:19 * shachaf is in a ~9k person town. 20:31:25 just over 20k in the town I live in 20:31:28 so yeah a bit smaller 20:31:32 Vorpal, that's huuge 20:31:43 i'm in a... whoa. 21k person municipality 20:31:45 nooodl: that's from like 2001 or something 20:31:49 i thought it was a lot less 20:31:49 my shitty town has about 17k 20:31:50 the awful place i have to go to in ireland sometimes has a population of 1444 20:31:51 so i imagine it's a bit more than 11k now 20:31:56 i guess this means that statistically there are like 20:31:57 but yeah it's probably not 20k 20:31:58 Taneb, it is small for being a city, but it is officially a city 20:32:03 three or four esolang people here probably?? 20:32:03 Hexham is (IIRC) population-wise about the same size as the place where both of my parents are from, and where I used to visit every summer. 20:32:07 Bike: my town is smaller than your town 20:32:08 Phantom_Hoover: well i used to live in a village with population like 100 20:32:12 -!- Nisstyre has joined. 20:32:13 Coincidentally, they too have a church: http://www.lieksanseurakunta.fi/kuvat/lieksa-1017-081c6b24b013a27e13bc97b8995688aa.jpg?v=1360672830 20:32:14 Vorpal, I raise you St David's, Wales 20:32:20 aha 20:32:29 elliott: so it'd have like a one hundredth of an esolanger? that sounds gruesome... 20:32:30 clues as to elliott's MYSTERIOUS PAST 20:32:42 Taneb, it was one of the last towns in Sweden to become a city before the concept of city rights was abolished (iirc that was related to guilds and taxes?) 20:32:43 have i mentioned i was technically born in the south 20:32:48 ok it's church wars now 20:32:48 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/11/Edegem_Basiliek1.JPG 20:33:03 (what an awful photo) 20:33:14 ours is better than both of those 20:33:15 so 20:33:17 i think the nearest remotely notable church is like, mormon 20:33:20 so... shit. 20:33:21 well actually fizzie's looks cool 20:33:38 http://www.katemb.com/wp-content/uploads/Inside_Hexham_Abbey_Hexham_United_Kingdom.jpg 20:33:39 CHURCH WARS http://www.rky.fi/read/asp/hae_kuva.aspx?id=104147&ttyyppi=jpg&kunta_id=49 SO MUCH CONCRETE. (This one is in Espoo.) 20:33:41 look at this shit 20:33:42 this shit is majestic 20:33:50 jesus 20:34:00 it's literally older than people and food 20:34:01 im going to become a christian 20:34:14 Please don't move to Hexham just to become a Christian 20:34:24 please do 20:34:26 but this church, Taneb 20:34:42 what if i buy this church and move into it 20:34:49 who is it that's buried in there or something 20:34:52 hey do we have any spaniards 20:34:55 I think we had the discussion about Finland's most popular tourist attraction church on-channel already, but it's http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temppeliaukio_Church -- just look at the inside pictures of it. (Because the outside doesn't look like anything.) 20:35:05 elliott, old king of Northumbria 20:35:05 because 60 Minutes did a areport on that one basilica and it looked damn pretty 20:35:05 Taneb, calling 20k huge: I work in a city closer to 200k. 20 km from here 20:35:09 http://www.peterloud.co.uk/photos/Northumberland/Hexham_Abbey/Hexham_2-w750.jpg 3 churches 4 the price of 1 20:35:12 fizzie: plz https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temppeliaukio_Church 20:35:20 `run echo test | colorize 20:35:22 bash: colorize: command not found 20:35:26 Taneb, the church in that city: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:%C3%96rebro_Sankt_Nikolai_kyrka.JPG 20:35:29 * oerjan swats elliott -----### 20:35:31 elliott, how about that one ^ 20:35:40 `run echo test | rainbow 20:35:41 ​test 20:35:44 http://www.peterloud.co.uk/photos/Northumberland/Hexham_Abbey/North_Window-2_3713-w768.jpg fuckin stained glass, man 20:35:45 elliott: you realize there are other commands that _use_ that one? 20:35:56 traditional, and not crazy like the ones in Finland, true 20:36:03 i used to live near literally the most boring church 20:36:05 http://www.kerkeninvlaanderen.be/i/13/01347_2547_lint_olvr_geboorte_01.jpg 20:36:06 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Margaret's_Chapel,_Edinburgh 20:36:08 it's silly 20:36:15 PDPC is dead 20:36:20 According to some msg I got 20:36:27 Phantom_Hoover: hahaha 20:36:31 World's largest wooden church is in Finland, if you believe these folks. (I'm not entirely certain.) 20:36:37 fizzie: have i mentioned that church thing is colourful 20:36:40 Also, grah, those sorts of messages annoy me. They always end up in some random channel in this client 20:36:44 oerjan: keep reading 20:36:48 also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Giles%27_Cathedral but who cares 20:37:03 elliott: Maybe they've just turned up the colour saturation slider. 20:37:28 hmm... this is the nicest church i've entered http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/44/Lille_eglise_Saint_Maurice_arriere.jpg 20:37:39 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6f/Church_of_Kerimaki.jpg MOAR CHURCH (that's the woody one) 20:37:43 Phantom_Hoover: wow what a shitty church 20:37:46 the first one 20:37:47 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Mary%27s_Cathedral,_Edinburgh_(Roman_Catholic) is quite nice inside 20:37:50 what appears to be my current parish's church: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint-Jean-Berchmans_Church 20:37:57 elliott, it's from the past 20:37:58 fizzie: that looks kinda ridiculous 20:38:02 everything was shitty in the past 20:38:13 what the hell is PDPC anyway 20:38:19 i like how the static version of the blog post is also down 20:38:54 is freenode down? am I here? are you here? who are you 20:39:02 PDPC = Peer-Directed Projects Center 20:39:09 nooodl: There's a persistent (though untrue) legend that the biggest wooden church was built so big due to unit confusion when reading the plans. 20:39:44 http://v2.nonxt1.c.bigcache.googleapis.com/static.panoramio.com/photos/original/172281.jpg wins the church wars btw 20:39:53 Apparently the actual reason is that the vicar at the time just wanted a church that's big enough to hold half of the people of the town (at the time, 12000 people). 20:40:07 fizzie: that's a cute legend 20:40:39 Bike: PDPC own Frenode 20:40:48 "to further reduce costs we have also discontinued the majority of infrastructure services for which the organisation paid, together with the reduced administration and organisational fees this means that we are now in a position where our outgoings are restricted to domain renewals! " 20:40:50 err 20:40:57 http://planet.freenode.net.nyud.net has a working copy of the boring message. 20:40:57 Who's paying for the servers? 20:41:02 And bandwidth? 20:41:11 [Notice] -mrmist- [Global Notice] As a P.S. to the last global, no, we're not dying or going away. 20:41:22 Sgeo: many people 20:41:26 there are freenode servers all over the globe 20:41:30 seriously though guys http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/59/Temppeliaukio_Church.jpg you have to hand it to the finnish 20:41:39 1 20:41:40 oops 20:41:46 "In practise it means very little" k 20:41:59 The same was said about Cybertown after Blaxxun went bankrupt 20:42:08 ... 20:42:11 that kind of reminds me of the church in nowhere, ireland 20:42:13 now #haskell-in-depth is talking about haskell vs. python 20:42:14 except less shitty 20:42:33 Sgeo: did you actually construct that sentence 20:42:39 elliott: ooh, it's further evidence for an observation I made recently 20:43:04 which is that server space is now cheap enough, in most cases, that it no longer makes sense to fund it via any means but simply paying for it yourself 20:43:07 We don't have any of those impressive cathedral-style churches, though, I don't think. 20:43:08 also i can't say i like that temppeliaukio thing but that's because i hate modern church architecture kind of irrationally 20:43:09 -!- Nisstyre has quit (Quit: Leaving). 20:43:15 even asking for donations is too much effort 20:43:30 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 20:43:50 Bike: what gets me is that it looks like it belongs in, like 20:43:51 hawaii 20:43:53 not finland 20:44:08 elliott: so it'd have like a one hundredth of an esolanger? that sounds gruesome... <-- it's ok there's just this crazy guy that gets possessed by an esolang spirit every friday the 13th 20:45:23 -!- Nisstyre has joined. 20:46:41 We've got these kind of things http://bonovox.squarespace.com/storage/uspenski-orthodox-cathedral-cc-ja-macd.jpg http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2566/3725590329_b0dc9f846d.jpg http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c6/Johanneksen_kirkko_Johannes_church_crop.jpg in Helsinki that sort of try to look generically impressive, but don't really manage so much. 20:47:18 yeah, only the last really looks churchy 20:47:53 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 20:48:25 People climb to the roof between the twin towers of the last one every now and then. 20:48:37 Not for any particular reason, just because. 20:48:40 It's discouraged, of course. 20:48:44 first one looks like maybe a government building 20:48:46 courthouse maybe 20:48:56 second one looks like another governemnt building 20:49:11 third one looks like a kind of hal-hearted church 20:49:43 First one is the main place of the orthodox church of Finland, or whatever their official name is. 20:50:33 And I guess the second one is the same for the Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland. 20:50:44 (The state religion.) 20:50:44 -!- Bike_ has joined. 20:51:52 elliott: yeah that too 20:55:02 the first one reminds me of the kelvingrov 20:55:03 e 20:57:43 Argh! Amazon quadrupled the price between adding to the basket and checking out. :-( 20:57:46 (again) 20:58:58 Well, this will certainly be the most... coastal anime con I've attended 20:59:02 Out of 2, to be fair 20:59:13 i read that as amazon quadruped 20:59:25 which is probably some kind of capybara 20:59:46 It's practically on the beach 21:01:15 impomatic2: do you consider that to be an attempt to get you to buy it at four times the price? 21:01:35 I seem to have accidentally created an Orkut account 21:01:44 -!- boily has quit (Quit: Poulet!). 21:01:46 -!- metasepia has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:02:09 wh 21:02:19 is it treatable 21:03:49 ais523: I think the amazon sellers run software to continually adjust their prices. E.g. 0.01 below the lowest price. Or the lowest price +10%, or whatever. 21:03:59 impomatic2: oh right 21:04:25 if that's anything like the typical MMO economy, and I don't see why it wouldn't be, if something's in short supply then the higher-priced sellers will buy it from the lower-priced sellers 21:04:33 It's amusing when to price bots get together, especially if they're working on +10% or something. Books can be priced in the millons 21:05:11 -!- carado has quit (Quit: Leaving). 21:05:15 I visited the Orkut home page and since I was logged into some google service (looked like it was using YouTube's information), it made an Orkut account for me. 21:05:25 -!- carado has joined. 21:05:32 oops 21:06:18 lol. 21:06:26 There's even books listed 2nd hand which haven't been published yet. 21:06:41 ais523: There have been a couple of articles about algorithmic Amazon pricing; one of them involved sellers that put up things for sale that they don't actually have in stock, with a high price. 21:07:13 Sgeo: I still don't regret deleting all my Google accounts 21:07:30 http://www.michaeleisen.org/blog/?p=358 "Amazon’s $23,698,655.93 book about flies" is at least one I've read. 21:07:36 although I'm not sure I'd recommend it to other people 21:08:28 I bet someone's laundering money through Amazon by listing books which don't exist. 21:08:48 It's a feedback loop of two companies, one setting price to 0.9983 of the other, while the other setting it to 1.270589 of the first one. 21:09:15 Since 0.9983*1.270589 > 1... 21:09:41 I was wondering if I can list a book at 0.50 or something so the algorithmic pricers change to 0.49 or something. 21:09:57 Then buy the book I want and delete my listing... Might save me a few :-) 21:10:06 If you have a few copies of the book just in case 21:10:18 I'd just cancel the orders. 21:11:02 impomatic2: the algorithmic pricers might immediately attempt to buy it, instead 21:12:21 ais523: it'd be worth a try :-) 21:12:49 I'd like a copy of "Lisp in Small Pieces" but 46 is too high... 21:12:54 It may be ever so slightly illegal 21:13:15 Not illegal, though I'm sure it's against Amazon's T&C 21:13:19 £sd 21:13:29 Sgeo: are you brazilian now 21:13:37 elliott: Your irssi window doesn't have to close when you leave a channel. <-- for quite a while i had this empty no. 2 or was it 3 window that i didn't know how to get rid of. 21:13:44 -!- Bike_ has changed nick to Bike. 21:14:57 kmc: Isn't that £$₫ or something. 21:15:06 pounds, dollars, and dongs? 21:15:14 Yes. 21:15:26 librae, sesteces, and denarii 21:15:26 Pounds, Dollars, and Dongs: The KMC Story 21:15:32 just pirate books like a normal person 21:15:36 sd = pounds, shillings and pence (if you're old enough to remember) 21:15:39 kmc: "KMC"? 21:15:44 You can /pirate/ books!? 21:15:45 đồngs i guess 21:15:47 Don't ask why d = pence, because I don't know 21:15:56 impomatic2: latin, Taneb had it already 21:16:20 also why L = pounds 21:16:25 Taneb: how have you survived up to now 21:16:33 GitS:SAC had yen-euro-dollars, IIRC; in an episode called ¥€$. 21:16:41 Bike, by never reading ever 21:16:55 i don't think that was one currency, just a bunch of stuff the assassin shoved into her arm 21:16:57 libra pondo :-) 21:17:00 Taneb: so the answer is "I haven't" 21:17:13 anyway i mention this because i have a pirated copy of lisp in small pieces, specifically. 21:17:21 I generally get physical books from a local bookshop 21:17:29 " Examples are 13-fold ionized iron (Fe13+), or Fe (XIII) in spectroscopic notation, found in the Sun's corona, or naked uranium (U92+), bare all bound electrons, which requires very high energy for its production." wow. wikipedia's writing 21:17:35 "naked uranium bares all bound electrons" 21:17:44 /physicists/ 21:17:54 i didn't know hexham had a bookshop 21:18:02 for 1 penny = 1d, d is for denarius 21:18:03 we have a bookshop but not books 21:18:13 a cheeseshop but no cheese 21:18:13 right same here 21:18:14 Bike, it has 2 selling new books, and at least 2 second hand 21:18:39 i mean you can't just go down to the local bookshop and buy Intelligence as Adaptive Behavior or whatever obscure nonfiction shit 21:18:48 unless you live in portland maybe (assholes) 21:19:05 i like the conspiracy theories about how NAFTA is trying to introduce a North American "Amero" currency 21:19:11 powell's++ 21:19:16 cause I'm sure the US wants to be in a monetary union with Mexico 21:19:24 I want to go to Portland again so I can go to Powell's. 21:19:29 i got three books on neurodynamics from powell's, all sold to them by the same guy 21:19:32 pretty awesome 21:20:00 Fiora: physicists need to get out more? 21:20:10 But yeah, if I ever want to learn to program on an Amiga, I know EXACTLY where to go to buy some books 21:20:23 Or a BBC Micro 21:20:36 Or a 6800 21:20:45 Or a 6502 21:21:07 You don't need to buy books 21:21:12 All the information you need is on the internet 21:21:13 Taneb: http://globalnerdy.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/forth_on_the_atari.jpg 21:21:24 If you want to learn to program a Z80, Zilog used to send you the book for free. 21:21:25 i can't tell if you're making a sincere statement or not 21:21:35 Postage paid, and all. 21:21:41 Bike: I think that image was edited to give the guy a boner 21:21:48 shachaf: the dream of the 90's is alive in portland 21:21:57 (Nowadays they only give you the PDF for free.) 21:22:32 FreeFull: just for accuracy 21:22:34 to the subject 21:22:45 http://internetcensus2012.github.com/InternetCensus2012/paper.html so um 21:22:52 "We used these devices to build a distributed port scanner to scan all IPv4 addresses." 21:22:53 i'm pretty sure that guy had a boner from the beginning 21:23:07 oh they're standing on a keyboard 21:23:08 wow 21:23:13 Huh, it seems that is the original image 21:23:25 it's a great image 21:23:29 Found a photo of the cover 21:23:30 Unfortunately, I'd first need one of those computery things 21:23:30 http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/1636/sicpcl6.jpg 21:23:37 And it has the boner too 21:23:39 And Bike that Forth book looks amazing 21:23:49 kmc: :) 21:23:50 it's pretty great at parties 21:23:52 I seem to recall someone else scanning the whole IPv4 address space too. 21:24:01 Bike: what, even the multicast noes an the private use region? 21:24:04 *ones 21:24:04 "After completing the scan of roughly one hundred thousand IP addresses, we realized the number of insecure devices must be at least one hundred thousand." 21:24:07 more here http://www.globalnerdy.com/2007/09/14/reimagining-programming-book-covers/ 21:24:29 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 21:24:30 the forth one isn't an edit though, which is the good part. way better than some sketchy animal 21:24:31 btw, CLC-INTERCAL has a really brilliant way of handling IPv6 21:24:39 you look up an IPv6 address as if it were a domain name 21:24:42 i,i Die Gnu Autotools 21:24:53 and it gives you an IPv4 address (in the multicast region) that you can use as a substitute 21:24:58 SICP already has a pretty funky cover, though. 21:25:08 kmc: this just reminds me how fucking terrible fantasy art is 21:25:09 -!- copumpkin has joined. 21:25:13 this is probably the most backwards-compatible method I've ever seen, I recommend adding it to glibc 21:25:43 ais523, I find that mildly amusing 21:25:43 ais523: um what if you want to connect to 1000000005823489723894723894728934723894723894892342349823489234 ipv6s simultaneously 21:25:50 okay the why's poignant guide one is awesome 21:26:04 the woman on the FORTH book is wearing some kind of upside down bra 21:26:07 elliott: well then it doesn't work but you'd run out of other resources first, like file handles 21:26:09 is there even a name for such an item 21:26:17 sex toy? 21:26:21 ket? 21:26:30 yes they both do appear to be dressed in bondage gear 21:26:31 ¬_¬ 21:26:41 a push-down? maybe it's some sort of pun on stacks 21:26:56 god that would be awful so it's probably true 21:27:20 http://blog.signalnoise.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/i_atari2_2.jpg 21:27:21 ais523: There's a real compatibility thing that does vaguely something like that; though there you actually look up a real domain name; if it has an IPv4 record, it returns that; but if it only has an AAAA record, it makes up an IPv4 address that (for that program) works as a substitute. 21:27:37 fizzie: neat 21:27:51 kmc: what is that, breakout? 21:27:59 BUZZ ALDRIN SPACE RAINBOW TENNIS™ 21:28:28 package includes: Atari cartride, glass pipe, 20x Salvia divinorum extract 21:29:16 i'm just trying to imagine the actual game, since i don't think psychedelic demos (psychedemia?) was really possible on an atari 21:29:24 maybe in forth 21:30:06 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hrhJ9wDNWm4 21:31:07 salvia is awful 21:31:09 i just made the classic blunder didn't I. assuming a demoscene hacker can't make a system shock remake out of a pile of twigs and copper 21:31:35 ais523: See http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ngtrans-bia-03 for the details of it, if you like. 21:31:42 this is salvia basically http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/3628/hmmev.gif 21:31:57 "If only the AAAA record is available, it requests the address mapper to assign an IPv4 address corresponding to the IPv6 address, then creates the A record for the assigned IPv4 address, and returns the A record to the application." 21:32:07 lmt: yeah seems about right 21:32:25 lmt: we would have also accepted https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jX3iLfcMDCw 21:32:30 this is salvia basically http://img.foodnetwork.com/FOOD/2008/11/24/GL1B13_Country-Bread-and-Sage-Dressing_lg.jpg 21:32:31 that looks like the opposite of awful. what am i missing 21:33:31 two hands should be enough for anyone 21:34:23 Bike: the realization that lurking just outside your Plato's Cave view on reality are entities you can never comprehend 21:34:35 or perhaps the feeling that you didn't return to quite the right universe 21:34:40 who don't like you very much 21:34:41 which will haunt you forever 21:34:54 however, yolo 21:35:01 Bike: If you want to verify that, just go to http://pouet.net/prodlist.php and multiselect all platforms that start with "Atari", then poke the submit button; then go through the entries one by one. (There are only 242 pages of 25 results each.) 21:35:03 it's basically the scariest shit ever 21:36:10 my friend took it and experienced several months of subjective time, during which he learned that he'd poisoned himself with the drug and was slowly dying while his family and friends came to the hospital to ask him why he had done this thing 21:36:22 sounds way better than your average horror film 21:36:32 if you want to be really scared, sure, try salvia 21:36:40 and then after he died he came back to our reality about three minutes later 21:36:46 you're mostly making me want to try it to see how it compares to my nightmares 21:36:48 three minutes from whe he'd smoked it 21:37:21 kmc: best prank ever 21:37:29 though clearly i should try something less strong first, like mama's classic style ditryptamines 21:37:40 kmc: i've heard of people being trapped for thousands of years 21:37:44 subjective time is a bitch 21:38:01 good way to extend your lifespan 21:38:07 (The BIA draft also refers to a slightly related BIS approach of RFC2767.) 21:38:07 indeed 21:38:18 is that really subjective time? or more like when dreaming and you "know" that it's suddenly a thousand years later? 21:38:40 probably the latter insofar as you can define subjective time 21:38:45 kmc: have you heard of junji ito? 21:38:54 olsner: it is enough for it to be subjective knowledge that you're stuck there for thousands of years for each moment of the experience to be unbearably unpleasant 21:39:12 Bike: no 21:39:20 (There seems to be an absolutely amazing number of RFC documents on IPv6 transition methods of various levels of freakiness.) 21:39:21 it seems a bit improbable to experience significantly more time than normal 21:39:22 he wrote a comic called "Long Dream" 21:39:30 Bike: i'm happy to provide drug recommendations 21:39:32 about a guy who kept having longer and longer subjective dreams every night 21:39:48 drug recommendation #1: don't try salvia 21:39:50 i don't mean to discourage people from trying salvia, if it really sounds like a good idea after all the above 21:40:07 three nights in he wakes up talking about how he barely remembers the doctor, it was so long ago 21:40:10 etc. good comic 21:40:11 oh also another friend would take salvia and then just beg me to make sure he never took it again, without giving specifics 21:40:16 i feel like the only use for it is to gauge your mental strength 21:40:22 and then after he came down 3 min later, had no idea why and shrugged it off 21:40:30 and your acceptance of death and stuff like that 21:40:32 kmc: you're the one who linked that pikhal page, right? i already convinced a friend we should try it 21:40:32 Drug recommendation #0 [a meta-recommendation]: don't talk about drug recommendations on freenode channels, I'm pretty sure it's against the policies and/or guidelines. 21:40:40 Bike: which page 21:40:46 OH NO THE POLICIES 21:40:52 Bike: that sounds like a good comic 21:40:56 kmc: some drug that affected your perception of sound 21:41:03 oh DiPT 21:41:04 he's a musician, he thought it souned great 21:41:13 it's a bit obscure but yeah you should try it, if you can get it from a safe and trusted source 21:41:41 which is quite unlikely :/ 21:41:52 Obviously I should make it myself. Totally safe. 21:42:06 yeah if you have a trustd friend with organic synthesis skills and access to a lab 21:42:09 then do that 21:42:13 http://www.justmegawatt.com/comics/longdream.html I forgot, the other part of Long Dream is about this chick who's morbidly (ha! ha!) afraid of death 21:42:20 kmc: ooh give me a drugs recommendation 21:42:21 is fizzie threatening to kick kmc 21:42:33 cute imo 21:42:40 elliott: With my reputation? No, I'm just sort of hinting. 21:42:41 elliott: that's not how I read it 21:43:00 well this channel is also publicly-logged so i'm pretty sure the feds are at kmc's door as we speak 21:43:15 we have to book you for possession of some creepy-ass shit 21:43:18 heh 21:43:26 i don't have any DiPT or any salvia 21:43:32 these are tales of years ago 21:43:35 good cya 21:43:39 da feds 21:43:46 You could take it to the #esoteric-drugs subchannel, though; that's what usually gets done. (I'm sure everyone who'd join #esoteric-drugs would *certainly* assume the "esoteric" refers to esoteric programming languages.) 21:43:47 salvia is legal in most places 21:44:02 fizzie: has that literally ever happened before 21:44:05 i'm guessing no 21:44:11 it's legal because nobody really wants to abuse it 21:44:13 kmc: i am sure the statue of limitations has passed on literally everything you have ever done also right 21:44:21 I actually live in a state with legal weed, and I'm pretty sure strong hallucinogens are basically the same as weed? 21:44:31 anyway something like DiPT is too obscure to circulate in the usual drug black markets, except maybe sold as something else and that sucks bigtime 21:44:32 Pretty sure. 21:44:33 elliott: Quite a lot of minecraft talk did end up in #esoteric-minecraft back then. 21:44:46 kmc: Isn't the point of pikhal and tikhal making it yourself? 21:44:46 "Countries where salvia is controlled in some manner include: Australia, Belgium, Canada, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, Italy, Japan, the United States, Russia, Spain, and Sweden" yay, we've made the list. 21:44:48 why shouldn't minecraft talk be here? 21:45:06 'research chemicals' that aren't illegal can be bought direct over the Internet from sketchy synthesis companies in China 21:45:12 occasionally they mess up and send you poison 21:45:20 and you need to know which ones are functioning and not a scam this week 21:45:22 lmt: Because it's off-topic and was crowding out on-topic stuff? (Hypothetically, anyway.) 21:45:29 how is it off-topic :( 21:45:45 possibly the most successful esoteric language ever 21:45:46 presumably you could also buy it on Silk Road 21:45:56 but how do you know what you're getting 21:46:05 lmt: minecraft is boring 21:46:13 so? 21:46:28 brainfuck is boring but it is still on-topic 21:46:37 salvia being legal is kind of a problem because irresponsible assholes sell it as 'legal weed' and idiots buy it and hurt themselves 21:46:43 psychologically if not physically 21:46:57 ofc. the solution is not to ban salvia but to legalize weed 21:47:17 i doubt people get seriously hurt 21:47:24 unless they were schizophrenic to begin with 21:47:24 http://pycon.blogspot.com/2013/03/pycons-response-to-inapropriate.html you can't smoke weed at PyCon 21:47:41 nooo 21:47:55 well you can't do anything fun at pycon to start with 21:47:58 i mean it's about python 21:48:03 are they saying guido wasn't high when he came up with significant indentation 21:48:11 family friendly environment? 21:48:30 indoctrinate your kids with python at an early age 21:48:33 so they'll never become programmers 21:48:33 lmt: imo indentation syntax is great, as long as it's just sugar for an explicit form 21:48:37 that's where python goes wrong :( 21:48:44 kmc: imo python is great 21:48:54 python akbar 21:49:10 and people who don't like significant whitespace are very stupid people 21:49:31 the kind of people who would ban weed smokers from python conferences.. 21:49:34 people who don't like $my_favorite_thing aren't Real Hackers anyway 21:49:39 Shit's getting meta. 21:49:42 smoking inside is a dick move though 21:49:47 whether it's weed or tobaccy 21:49:58 lmt: The parts that would arguably make it an esolang are reasonably minor, and weren't mostly involved in the discussion. Anyhow, you can go read the logs around the time when #esoteric-minecraft was established; IIRC there was mostly a consensus, of sorts. 21:50:03 (All this babbling should really be on #esoteric-en anyway, right?) 21:50:44 i don't like fragmentation of a community of 10 people 21:50:54 It's not 10 people. 21:51:04 you're right. it's less 21:51:04 #esoteric-minecraft is unused anyway 21:51:10 except for actual server chat except that never happens 21:51:14 it was used back when minecraft was popular 21:51:22 is anyone playing on their server? 21:51:24 anyone remember that part in unix-haters where they made fun of usenet (posts about how to organize usenet) 21:51:25 but people mostly weren't playing it for redstone, and redstone isn't that interesting as an esolang 21:51:25 Yeah, two weeks ago 21:51:27 best part, i think 21:51:47 also it was the minecraft people who moved to -minecraft anyway 21:52:20 redstone is so annoying to make anything in 21:52:23 so that we didn't spoil their minecraft discussion with esolangs? 21:52:39 Yes, and I don't think anyone even suggested that would be "fragmenting the community" somehow. 21:52:40 Sometimes -minecraft is used for Dwarf Fortress 21:52:43 Speaking of which 21:52:43 redstone is super annoying 21:52:45 elliott, Phantom_Hoover 21:52:49 and people can be in multiple channels 21:52:53 hello 21:52:54 which is a hallmark of a good esolang 21:53:05 elliottcraft would also be annoying to make things in 21:53:11 ooh 21:53:11 I have most of a spec, but haven't gone close to attempting to implement it 21:53:12 Phantom_Hoover, convince elliott to start a fortress 21:53:15 dwarf fortress news?? 21:53:16 i wish dwarf fortress were less buggy :( 21:53:21 elliott, start a fortress you fucker 21:53:23 hahahahahaha me start a fortress 21:53:27 how about Taneb starts it 21:53:27 (btw: elliottcraft is my language, it's just named after someone else) 21:53:28 Dwarf Fortress pestering, I'm afraid 21:53:36 Taneb: call the fortres something stupid please 21:53:55 i've been playing dwarf fortress a lot recently 21:54:00 elliott, my laptop is playing up and I never resolved the chinese graphics card fiasco so I can't use my computer 21:54:06 i wonder if you can still use the UNCOUTH names for your fortress 21:54:08 lmt, want to start a succession fortress? 21:54:12 maybe 21:54:19 Rules: 21:54:32 Head of the military is named after Gre_gor 21:54:35 Without _ 21:54:44 Farmer is named after me 21:55:07 The dorf named after elliott gets a lavish room unless you don't want him to 21:55:14 etc 21:55:20 i see. 21:55:46 ooh, that bug in Konversation we found earlier today has been fixed already 21:55:49 that was quite a turnaround 21:59:34 http://www.justmegawatt.com/comics/assets/comics/horror/longdream/07.jpg so this is salvia eh 21:59:40 -!- ais523 has quit. 21:59:44 > (\x y -> y . x y) id (+1) 0 21:59:45 Bike: no 21:59:46 2 21:59:54 oh 22:00:03 that does not seem representative 22:00:38 > let p x y = y . x y in p (p id) (+ 1) 0 22:00:40 3 22:00:53 > let p x y = y . x y in p (p (join fmap)) (+ 1) 0 22:00:55 4 22:01:47 riduhaskell 22:03:32 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving). 22:03:55 should have told him to take it into #esoteric-haskell 22:04:22 that's called #esoteric 22:05:17 well it shouldn't be 22:05:44 i thought you were just arguing against fragmentation 22:05:45 since haskell is not an esoteric language.. 22:05:51 i changed my mind 22:06:05 i think you need to be in #esoteric-fragmentation then 22:07:47 fragmentation of consciousness 22:07:48 on salvia 22:08:36 http://www.justmegawatt.com/comics/assets/comics/horror/longdream/27.jpg how about this is this salvia 22:08:46 it this esoteric 22:08:48 is this haskell? 22:08:54 yes. 22:08:57 it is haskell 22:09:06 gosh 22:09:13 he's falling apart into monads... 22:10:12 monad tutorials blow him away 22:10:50 a tragic fate 22:15:17 http://internetcensus2012.github.com/InternetCensus2012/images/clientmap_16to9_1600x900.jpg dang, they made a map of infectees. 22:23:33 Bike: i'm pretty sure your previous picture wasn't haskell. hth. 22:38:49 Bike: here's salvia http://i.imgur.com/Z4d8scj.gif 22:43:08 salvia has a good raytracer 22:47:48 and animation and lzw compression and a 256-color palette 22:48:24 This website put a 500GB HD as "destitute" 22:52:54 Dwarf Fortress ought to be available for android :-( 22:53:23 -!- lmt has left. 22:56:13 What would the UI be like o.O 22:56:28 it would be dwarf fortressy 22:57:14 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 23:12:20 Sgeo, all functions are mapped to some sort of gesture 23:13:46 also: i like the glossy digestive biscuit in lament's salvia picture 23:14:03 Ugh this tutorial wants me to install node.js 23:14:44 no its not a node.js tutorial 23:15:25 hi 23:16:59 uh. It wants me to install node.js 0.8. This is 0.2.6 23:17:57 -!- monqy has joined. 23:25:40 -!- sirdancealot has quit (Quit: ragequit). 23:25:45 Meh, if node.js doesn't work, I'll skip/read those parts of the tutorial 23:26:43 node.~ath 23:27:33 hi 23:27:39 hi 23:30:19 Oh joy if I can't get node.js working I get to figure out how to run a web server 23:30:39 if you just want it locally that's not exactly hard 23:31:19 um Bike are you admitting to knowing things about node.js 23:31:21 that's not very cool here 23:31:45 I don't want node.js I want to do an angular.js tutorial 23:31:51 i meant, a web server 23:32:00 but yes in my workplace I'm known as the NodeMaster. 23:32:09 by "do" do you mean "create" or "follow" and why 23:32:22 "follow" 23:32:28 Superheroic JavaScript MVW Framework definitely sounds like something to learn 23:32:29 Because my job will involve AngularJS 23:32:43 ah... 23:33:06 i dont know anything about node.js except it's a server side javascript solution and something about CPS and some people like it and some people hate it yada yada it's probably awful 23:33:33 you should read http://blog.nelhage.com/2012/03/why-node-js-is-cool/ 23:33:35 yessss https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_server-side_JavaScript_solutions still exists 23:34:09 tldr: it's cool because it designates a single way for network libraries to cooperate 23:34:25 that's pretty cool 23:34:39 people in the community argue that it's the only way this could be done and the only way to produce XXXTREME SPEEEED 23:34:44 both of which are false 23:35:05 GHC's IO manager is a totally different approach to solving the same problem 23:35:12 but it is a really important problem and something most languages suck at 23:35:21 speaking as someone who has repeatedly been bashing his head against this problem in Python 23:35:37 well node.js wants people to program in continuation passing style and also the author is a moron 23:35:37 (looks like Python 3 is also going to have a designated One True event loop library) 23:35:43 which is imo enough for me to dismiss it as unfairly as i like 23:36:09 liking things is so passé. 23:36:49 " the risk of bringing the whole world to a halt with an accidental blocking call," 23:36:57 How could one accidentally do a blocking call? 23:37:04 Why would there be blocking calls in the stdlib? 23:37:09 Or maybe when calling foreign code? 23:37:34 Sgeo: pure computation is one case 23:37:44 Ah, good point 23:37:49 and yeah, there are blocking calls in the stdlib for convenience when you don't need async 23:37:57 * Sgeo winces 23:38:08 the problem is that the async versions are materially less convenient 23:38:11 because of callback hell 23:38:53 i'm trying to find the reason i decided the nodejs guy was a moron but google isn't helping :( 23:38:56 this is one reason to prefer lightweight threads + IO manager 23:39:21 but 99.999% of the programming world has decided that threads are evil and stupid, because they are evil and stupid in python and ruby 23:39:52 I don't get the IO manager thing 23:40:00 what's that 23:40:16 http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m7ss6hi4O51qcc9h5o1_500.gif everything i know about node.js 23:40:26 Bike: what 23:40:30 Is it jsut the underlying implementation of IO so that it co-operates with lightweight threads? 23:40:32 Or is there more to it? 23:40:39 you're asking me what the GHC IO manager does? 23:40:45 yes 23:40:53 that's a big part of it yes 23:41:04 Bike: i don't understand but i agree 23:41:38 in order to make it cooperate with lightweight threads, you can't do blocking syscalls directly from your worker OS threads 23:41:49 otherwise you block a whole OS thread for the sake of one lightweight thread 23:42:56 so instead, a lightweight thread just registers in a central place the IO it wants done, and will be woken up when it's completed 23:43:07 and that worker is free to run other lightweight threads in the meantime 23:43:43 so now you just need an OS primitive for "wait for any of these IO operations to complete and lemme know about the first one that does" 23:43:53 which is what select / poll / epoll / kqueue / etc. are for 23:44:25 Is there a way, on Windows, to tell when a subprocess you created is requesting input? 23:44:30 probably 23:44:33 Hm 23:44:51 My conclusion back in 2007 or 2008 that the answer was "no" ended up changing the specs of PSOX 23:45:06 anyway the idea of routing IO from thousands of concurrent requests through a single syscall is what makes node.js "webscale" 23:45:11 but it's something GHC does for you as well 23:45:35 also, as it happens, GHC /does/ have a way to make arbitrary blocking C calls from a lightweight thread 23:45:50 but it's more heavyweight than you would want for your basic IO mechanism 23:46:09 in the worst case it involves spinning up a new OS thread, if the call takes too long 23:47:57 Hmm, wonder if node.js has things like IRC libraries and Reddit libraries 23:48:01 That might make me want to try it 23:48:24 hacker news library 23:48:39 library for applying to Y combinator 23:49:11 i thought node.js was a webserver why would it have irc why would it have reddit what would having reddit even mean 23:49:53 Bike: no 23:49:58 request to reddit for the latest and greatest in cat macros and commit suicide 23:50:05 it's a language implementation and a framework for writing network programs of all kinds 23:50:09 often webservers, yes 23:50:13 oh, ok. 23:50:20 its role is comparable to CPython + Twisted, for example 23:50:28 Does anyone use like, Javascript by itself, any more 23:50:28 -!- Lymia has joined. 23:50:29 or Ruby + EventMachine? don't actually know anything about EM 23:50:44 Bike: what would that mean? JS by itself doesn't have much of a way to interact with the outside world 23:50:47 well JS by itself can't really do anything 23:50:57 well, JS plus DOM I guess? 23:51:06 yes people do still write web applications using javascript 23:51:09 js can do plenty of things like: be stupid, hecka stupid, oh god why would you ever use JS, i know i know 23:51:28 i just remember moaning about having to learn jquery, and my much-better-at-webdev friend was like "uh you don't want to use js without it bro" 23:51:34 jQuery is a library 23:51:35 What's the equivalent of hashmaps in JS? Apparently using an object is a bad idea if keys are arbitrary 23:51:52 probably hashmaps 23:51:53 Sgeo: the equivalent is to punch yourself in the crotch repeatedly 23:51:54 it's a library but it does a lot of things. 23:51:54 basically 23:52:14 Bike: anyway yes, some people do write JS web client code without any libraries other than provided by browser 23:52:26 typically generic things that are intended to work with jQuery or any of the many other similar libraries 23:52:29 I sometimes write really simple things without libraries 23:52:30 huh. i don't remember seeing any recently 23:52:33 it's not /thatt/ bad 23:52:37 if you can assume a recentish browser 23:52:40 not that i usually look, i guess 23:52:45 http://dl.dropbox.com/u/16240872/addtwittertoreader.htm 23:52:59 like, you wouldn't write a whole app without jQuery or whatever 23:53:07 but you might write a small library intended to be used in lots of very different apps 23:53:31 actually i wouldn't write js at all 23:53:33 except sometimes i would 23:53:34 but usually not 23:53:35 hope this helps 23:53:44 btw a lot of people are now using client side MVC frameworks 23:53:48 which is a lot nicer 23:53:49 -!- Jafet has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 23:53:57 kmc, I guess that's what AngularJS is? 23:54:02 with jQuery you do lots of imperative reaching into the DOM and changing this or that 23:54:14 with an MVC framework you have dom elements tied to data structures and when the data changes, the DOM magically changes to match 23:54:20 according to a declarative template kind of thingy 23:54:45 Sgeo: http://www.devthought.com/2012/01/18/an-object-is-not-a-hash/ https://github.com/sid0/jsdict 23:54:57 kmc, yeah, read that first thing a while ago 23:55:26 now i'm wondering if objects are actually implemented with hashing. though i guess that might not make sense if there's lots of inheritance 23:56:19 have you ever noticed nothing in javascript makes sense though 23:56:39 -!- nooodl has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).