00:01:28 <HackEgo> not lately; try `seen aftran ever
00:09:52 <HackEgo> 2013-04-11 00:02:18: <oerjan> `seen aftran ever
00:10:12 <HackEgo> 2013-04-11 00:09:52: <HackEgo> 2013-04-11 00:02:18: <oerjan> `seen aftran ever
00:11:51 <HackEgo> 2011-09-03 07:36:50: <mauke> when things would be ambiguous otherwise
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00:45:30 <elliott> Bike: did you know coq's regular old instance resolution can make typechecking fail to terminate :(
00:47:35 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
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00:50:09 <Sgeo> doesthiswork, er?
00:50:24 <kmc> the purpose is to notify all those people
00:50:31 <kmc> that... some webcomic or something has updated
00:50:57 <kmc> this is the grim post-google-reader future
00:50:58 <Bike> it really doesn't, but that's nice of you to say
00:51:39 <Phantom_Hoover> man i wish i knew more about economics so i could gloat about bitcoins more
00:52:03 <kmc> that's the best reason to learn stuff PH
00:52:04 <Bike> Oh, good move.
00:52:07 <elliott> kmc: what you fail to realise is that slist has existed for like a year
00:52:18 <elliott> well I guess you were probably here when it got invented
00:52:26 <elliott> except it only became automated recently
00:52:27 <kmc> `run slist | tr n-za-m a-z
00:52:29 <HackEgo> fyvfg: Tnaro ngevd Ntriq Fvben abeggv Strb TungOgurePrefba nybg
00:52:47 <Phantom_Hoover> and at no point was there a definitive point where it became insane
00:52:57 <kmc> hm 'tr a-z n-za-m' is easier to pronounce
00:53:02 <Phantom_Hoover> well actually there were several such points but that's too mundane
00:53:30 <Bike> aren't like nine of those the same person anyway
00:53:57 <Phantom_Hoover> sgeo appears to be trying to build this into a commercial empire
00:54:11 <Bike> shachaf is actually the monster behind the scenes here
00:55:30 <kmc> shachaf is arthur frayne and shachaf is zardoz
00:55:32 <doesthiswork> I just use rss to keep track of the 250 webcomics I read
00:56:41 <Bike> yes but without google reader rss is useless
00:57:13 <elliott> maybe I should execute plan switch to firefox
00:57:22 <kmc> beyond 1984, beyond 2001, beyond love, beyond google reader
00:57:32 <doesthiswork> I don't think all of them depend on google reader
00:57:34 <kmc> elliott: why
00:58:03 <Bike> why did google shut down reader anyway
00:58:44 <elliott> kmc: well chromium likes to eat all my memory and crash because i use hundreds of tabs and maybe firefox is better at that nowadays
00:58:58 <elliott> kmc: and also, i have trouble keeping track of the aforementioned tabs
00:58:58 <kmc> ime firefox is laggy in a way that makes my whole wm laggy
00:59:04 <elliott> so tree style tabs or whatever might be nice
00:59:13 <kmc> are there not those fro chorm
00:59:28 <elliott> okay there is a "beta" version
00:59:39 <elliott> it seems like extensions make chromium slow and crashy though
00:59:50 <doesthiswork> astral aves is a pretty good webcomic http://astralaves.com/
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00:59:56 <elliott> also I would like to maybe block javascript by default for performance reasons and I think firefox has better options in that regard
01:00:10 <elliott> how do you count tabs in chromium
01:00:20 <elliott> okay there is an extension for it
01:00:22 <Bike> doesthiswork: that's kind of an unfortunate font but i'll check it out, thanks
01:00:23 <monqy> ahh, is this about the elliott problem
01:00:25 <elliott> let me run this untrusted JS code on my computer so I can tell you
01:00:59 <elliott> currently i have 55 tabs open
01:01:02 <elliott> but this is a "light" session
01:01:09 <Sgeo> It (shouldn't) be a matter of running untrusted JS being bad, just running untrusted JS in a position of privilege
01:01:11 <elliott> usually i have at least twice the windows
01:01:18 <elliott> and so far none of my tabs have had their titles becomes unreadable
01:01:31 <doesthiswork> bike: normally it is an actual comic, this is just a short interlude
01:01:40 <Bike> well you're running it in your browser which is your OS so that's impossible sgeo
01:01:44 <Bike> doesthiswork: i figured.
01:01:53 <nooodl> idk how you can live with multiple windows
01:02:19 <monqy> Sgeo: um do you trust your browser not to privilege any code at all
01:02:26 <Bike> no. yes. no. yes. no. yes. no. yes. no. yes. no. yes.
01:02:39 <Bike> the false knight on the road
01:02:58 <elliott> ok tree style tabs for chroem looks useless
01:03:09 <elliott> it's literally a drop down menu you have to click in the toolbar to use lol
01:03:23 <Sgeo> I said shouldn't. Practical realities of bugs aside, etc.
01:03:35 <elliott> spawns a new window for it
01:03:56 <Bike> elliott 1 technology 5
01:04:17 <monqy> just use firefox and get it over with, or does their variant suck too
01:04:30 <Bike> everything sucks in elliottworld.
01:05:04 <Sgeo> Even suckless?
01:05:11 <monqy> well yes hes picky about trivialities that much is obvious. those ui concerns are real but the underlying issue is that he --sgeo..............................................
01:05:34 <monqy> --mismanages his tabs horrendously
01:05:44 * Sgeo isn't allowed to make jokes?
01:05:54 <elliott> the real issue is that monqy cannot imagine being good enough at browsing the internet that you have hundreds of interesting tabs because he is a sad, pathetic person
01:08:01 <monqy> does everything suck in phantomhooverworld too
01:13:51 -!- Gregor has set topic: Koen_: be a Haskell person. | am i rye? imo no | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
01:14:32 <oerjan> Gregor: that's barley an improvement
01:14:45 -!- Gregor has set topic: Koen_: be a Haskell person. | am i rye? imo needs moar saurkraut | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
01:15:40 <kmc> acid cabbage
01:15:46 -!- Gregor has set topic: Koen_: be a Haskell person. | am i rye? imo needs moar sour krauts | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
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01:42:29 <kmc> shachaf: you seem to be a verb
01:42:36 <HackEgo> fyvfg: Gnaro ngevd Atriq Svben abeggv Ftrb GungBgureCrefba nybg
01:43:17 -!- shachaf has set topic: Koen_: be a Haskell person. | am i rye? 'course i am! | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
01:45:06 <shachaf> monqy and kmc: hey you know the thing on "internet forums" where there are old threads and they tell you "don't bump old threads"??
01:45:24 <shachaf> if an old thread is relevant why shouldn't i post in it......
01:46:02 <monqy> it varies from community to community, and also what the thread is and what you're contributing and if the thread's completely outdated by new thread and so on
01:46:22 <kmc> isbitcoinstillfucked.com
01:46:39 <shachaf> yes but it seems to be "kind of dogmatic" and across a lot of communities..
01:47:00 <shachaf> it even seems that people would rather have you start a whole new thread rather than post to the old one
01:47:20 <oerjan> bitcoin has always been fucked, and at war with eurasia.
01:47:22 <monqy> well maybe they heard "don't bump" and didn't understand the reasons
01:47:29 <doesthiswork> because usually people start reading a thread at the beginning
01:47:39 <shachaf> well but i'm talking about the "administrators" or whatever they're called
01:48:04 <doesthiswork> if it defaulted to the very last post when the thread got too old people probably wouldn't complain as much
01:48:13 <shachaf> and sometimes "they're all like this thread is locked" and
01:49:01 <monqy> maybe the admins picked it up from the forums they were on as a kiddo
01:49:10 <monqy> they heard "dont bump" and took it to heart........
01:49:29 <monqy> well if you go back far enough they probably had their reasons at some point
01:49:33 <kmc> balls & bollards
01:49:58 <shachaf> "do you want to be the devil too"
01:50:38 <shachaf> [conspicuous nonexclusion of monqy]
01:50:46 <pikhq_> Does that mean Satanists worship people?
01:50:55 <Sgeo> Weight Watchers personal assessment seems to assume I want to lose weight
01:50:59 <Sgeo> And have tried losing weight before
01:51:06 <Sgeo> Thanks, Weight Watchers
01:52:18 <doesthiswork> shachaf: Because it takes time to load the conversation into their memory. if your post can be isolated into it's own thread then they do not have that problem. If the thread is recent enough it already is in their memory so they have no problem with another post in that thread
01:57:42 <Sgeo> What's that thread that was a decade between posts?
01:58:05 <Bike> Weight Watchers personal assessment seems to assume I want to lose weight <-- does weight watchers even do the opposite?
01:58:14 <HackEgo> 708) <olsner> the allocation is done by the "Dynamic" in DRAM <olsner> before that we used SRAM where everything was preallocated in the factory <fizzie> olsner: So what's this SDRAM then? <olsner> fizzie: synchronized, it's for multithreading
01:58:17 <kmc> itt the weight loss industrial complex
01:58:27 <oerjan> shachaf: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ImAHumanitarian hth
01:58:27 <kmc> olsner.troll.moed++
01:58:54 <shachaf> What if my weight is perfect and I just want to watch it because it's so good?
01:59:45 <shachaf> oerjan: does that link say "im a humanitarian i eat humans........."....................
01:59:53 <oerjan> @karma olsner.troll.moed
01:59:53 <lambdabot> olsner.troll.moed has a karma of 1
02:00:29 <shachaf> @@ @run length . lines $ @show @karma-all
02:00:43 <shachaf> @@ @run length . filter ("moed"`isSuffixOf`) $ @show @karma-all
02:00:46 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `[GHC.Types.Char]'
02:00:49 <shachaf> @@ @run length . filter ("moed"`isSuffixOf`) . lines $ @show @karma-all
02:01:01 <shachaf> @@ @run length . filter ("moed"`isInfixOf`) . lines $ @show @karma-all
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02:01:09 <shachaf> @@ @run filter ("moed"`isInfixOf`) . lines $ @show @karma-all
02:01:11 <lambdabot> [" \"adrake.j4cbo.moed\" 1"," \"olsner.troll.moed\" 1"," \"rbraun.m...
02:01:22 <shachaf> @@ @run drop 2 . filter ("moed"`isInfixOf`) . lines $ @show @karma-all
02:01:24 <lambdabot> [" \"rbraun.mberwer.moed\" 1"," \"Slizyboy.moed\" 1"," \"ttuttle...
02:01:27 <shachaf> @@ @run drop 4 . filter ("moed"`isInfixOf`) . lines $ @show @karma-all
02:03:35 <shachaf> I guess lambdabot spent some time around that other channel.
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02:18:26 <oerjan> that ttuttle does look like a humanitarian
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02:20:31 * Sgeo has still not migrated away from Google Reader :(
02:27:29 <kmc> me either but i did download my feed list
02:27:34 <kmc> so what should one use instead
02:29:03 <kmc> `run echo esoteric | tr a-z n-ma-z
02:29:05 <HackEgo> tr: range-endpoints of `n-m' are in reverse collating sequence order
02:29:09 <kmc> `run echo esoteric | tr a-z n-za-m
02:30:00 <shachaf> kmc: My father used to use Google Reader and is using feedly.com now.
02:47:42 <pikhq_> I'm trying to find something else to use.
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03:30:21 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
03:31:41 <kmc> like craigslist but it's about things Sgeo is interested in
03:32:13 <shachaf> oh man i would, well, not subscribe to that list but it wouldn't matter because i'd hear all about it anyway
03:35:13 <Sgeo> That was somewhat unexpected
03:35:30 <jconn> kmc: |value error: fungot
03:35:40 <kmc> that used to be a lot more fun
03:35:49 <kmc> oh fungot isn't even here, what gives
03:36:32 <doesthiswork> run sgeolist | r13 irc://irc.freenode.net:6667/# hth
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03:39:07 <kmc> so close to making any sense
03:39:28 <kmc> hm HackEgo can't access the internet directly can it
03:39:36 <kmc> it would be fun to run an irc client in HackEgo and connect to freenode
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03:42:40 <kmc> apparently there was a "Where are They Now?" episode of Pimp My Ride where they checked in to see how many of the tricked out cars had been crashed by their owners
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04:14:38 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
04:18:56 <shachaf> i read it as nomic and i dont even know what a nomic is???????????Help
04:19:39 <Sgeo> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nomic
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04:37:05 <kmc> <div id="butts" align="center">
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04:54:34 <kmc> ▃ ▃ ▅▄▁▂▃ ▃ ▅▄▅▅▃ ▃ ▅▄▁▂▃ ▃ ▅▄▅▅▃ ▃ ▅▄▁▂▃ ▃ ▅▄▅▅▃ ▃ ▅▄▁▂▃ ▃ ▅▄▅ ▆▆▆▆▅▄▄▄▃ ▃ ▃ ▁▂▇▇▇▇▆▅▅▅▃ ▃ ▃ ▁▂▆▆▆▆▅▄▄▄▃ ▃ ▃ ▁▂▇▇▇▇▆▅▅▅▃ ▃ ▃ ▃
04:55:05 <Bike> yeah i'm alright
04:55:29 <doesthiswork> that is an interesting language. do you call it amplitude?
04:55:57 <shachaf> maybe i should see a doctor
04:56:34 <Bike> nephrologist, opthamologist, gastroenterologist
05:07:39 <kmc> shachaf: what kind of not all right, i meant, also
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05:12:44 <shachaf> well i mostly meant to break up the monotony of social interaction "r u ok" "yep you?" "yeah i'm alright" "cool" with something else. think of it as an art piece
05:13:23 <shachaf> but as it happens i'm also kind of sick recently, but it's getting better mostly, i think
05:14:09 <oerjan> i hear that's up and coming
05:15:10 <kmc> that would suck
05:17:57 <Jafet> `run python -c $'import math,encodings\nb=" "+"".join(unichr(c) for c in range(9601,9609))\ns=""\nfor i in range(0,100):\n x=i/5.\n y=math.sin(x)+math.sin(3*x)+math.sin(5*x)\n s+=b[int((y/6+0.5)*len(b))]\nprint encodings.utf_8.encode(s)[0]'
05:17:58 <HackEgo> ▄▆▇▇▅▄▄▅▅▅▄▄▅▇▇▆▃▁▁▂▃▄▃▃▃▃▄▄▂▁▁▃▆▇▇▆▄▄▅▅▅▄▄▅▆▇▇▄▂▁▁▃▄▄▃▃▃▄▄▃▁▁▂▄▇▇▆▅▄▄▅▅▅▄▄▆▇▇▅▃▁▁▂▄▄▃▃▃▃▄▃▂▁▁▃▆▇▇▅▄
05:19:39 <pikhq_> Now make it do a square wave.
05:22:14 <Jafet> `run python -c $'import math,encodings\nb=" "+"".join(unichr(c) for c in range(9601,9609))\ns=""\nfor i in range(0,100):\n x,y=i/5.,0\n for j in range(1,99,2):\n y+=math.sin(j*x)/j\n s+=b[int((y/6+0.5)*len(b))]\nprint encodings.utf_8.encode(s)[0]'
05:22:15 <shachaf> kmc: It looks like OS X v. latest turned off the cups web UI by default.
05:22:15 <HackEgo> ▄▅▅▅▅▅▅▅▅▅▅▅▅▅▅▅▃▃▃▃▃▃▃▃▃▃▃▃▃▃▃▃▅▅▅▅▅▅▅▅▅▅▅▅▅▅▅▅▃▃▃▃▃▃▃▃▃▃▃▃▃▃▃▅▅▅▅▅▅▅▅▅▅▅▅▅▅▅▅▃▃▃▃▃▃▃▃▃▃▃▃▃▃▃▃▅▅▅▅▅
05:23:30 <pikhq_> Hmm, given the sampling rate I think the one harmonic there actually is the whole square wave.
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05:28:30 <kmc> shachaf: good for them
05:28:38 <kmc> Jafet: nice
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06:19:05 <kmc> const unsigned long main[] = { 0xc7e68948c7ffff31, 0x24310f00b195e206, 0xd231f88902460001, 0xe9eb050f03b2 };
06:20:17 <elliott> kmc: main is usually a function
06:20:23 <elliott> (this is like when they say the title of the film in the film)
06:20:42 <shachaf> Is that meant to have an rdtsc?
06:21:08 <kmc> does it work shachaf
06:21:56 <kmc> it should do the same thing as perl -e 'while(1){print"\xe2\x95".("\xb1","\xb2")[rand 2]}'
06:23:03 <shachaf> As in, mostly /s, with occasional chunks of mixed /s and \s.
06:23:46 <fizzie> Even though rdtsc has an 'r' in it, I don't think it returns random numbers.
06:26:16 <kmc> seems good enough here
06:26:33 <kmc> we do a syscall between rdtsc calls
06:27:44 <shachaf> How small can you make a Linux "yes" executable?
06:27:46 <Fiora> using the timing between things to generate random bits?
06:29:02 <kmc> shachaf: do you mean the size of the whole ELF file, or do you allow some other exe formats, or do you mean only the instructions
06:29:05 <kmc> for the former, see http://www.muppetlabs.com/~breadbox/software/tiny/teensy.html
06:29:09 <kmc> Fiora: yeah
06:29:15 <Fiora> oooh. that's a cool trick
06:29:20 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/JBJW -- sure, that *could* be the output of an unbiased rng, but on this box it seems to have a larger than expected number of runs of alternating 0s and 1s.
06:29:39 <shachaf> OK, let's say just the size of the instructions.
06:30:09 <Fiora> kmc: maybe for better randomness you could, like, sum a bunch of rdtsc results and pick the low bit?
06:30:12 <kmc> Fiora: that's interesting
06:30:19 <kmc> er i meant
06:30:21 <kmc> fizzie: that's interesting
06:30:31 <kmc> Fiora: yeah, I wanted to keep it as small as possible though :)
06:30:43 <Fiora> I wonder what other terrible things you could use for entropy
06:30:50 <fizzie> Fiora: mooz's Befunge-93 interpreter on the TI-86 used the Z80's R register (some sort of a RAM refresh counter) to implement ?.
06:31:18 <kmc> yeah, that was a common ti calc trick
06:31:25 <fizzie> "timing between things" in general is I guess what mostly feeds /dev/random's pool.
06:31:49 <kmc> the galaksija uses the R register as a framebuffer pointer during the video routine
06:32:07 <kmc> and just executes garbage instructions (which also happen to be string literals for the BASIC interpreter, gotta use those bytes!)
06:32:28 <kmc> honestly I'm happy if my maze program gives different, weird results on different machines
06:32:47 <fizzie> The Hunt the Wumpus Befunge port quite often ended up having a long run of being unable to create the dungeon.
06:32:52 <shachaf> What if it makes people go blind?
06:34:20 <kmc> seems p. unlikely
06:34:29 <kmc> http://codepad.org/FghOek0i am I missing something and not using the least significant bit?
06:35:12 <kmc> maybe some other bit is actually more random
06:35:40 <kmc> hm if you have invariant TSC and your CPU clocks down to an fraction of half of the top speed
06:35:43 <kmc> an fraction
06:35:55 <kmc> you see where i'm going with this
06:36:00 <Fiora> would that affect the randomness of the low bit?
06:36:19 <Fiora> movl $0xb195e2, (%rsi) what does this do o_O
06:36:40 <kmc> stores that 32-bit constant at the address in %rsi
06:36:43 <shachaf> Probably related to that codepoint it prints out?
06:36:56 <kmc> that's the UTF-8 encoding for one of the characters
06:37:05 <kmc> sorry, I missed the context of your question
06:37:18 <Fiora> I wonder if rdtscp would be better.
06:37:20 <kmc> wasn't sure if you were objecting to AT&T syntax (which would be p. valid)
06:37:27 <Fiora> oh! sorry, I wasn't
06:37:37 <shachaf> I'm more used to AT&T syntax than Intel syntax. :-(
06:37:41 <shachaf> does that make me a bad person
06:38:28 <Fiora> geez having more experience with one syntax than another doesn't make you a bad person... XD
06:39:06 <kmc> anyway time to tweet this (that's the cool way to distribute c programs) and then sleep
06:40:28 <kmc> `gccrun 'const unsigned long main[] = { 0xc7e68948c7ffff31, 0x24310f00b195e206, 0xd231f88902460001, 0xe9eb050f03b2 };'
06:40:36 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: gccrun: not found
06:40:53 <kmc> `run echo 'const unsigned long main[] = { 0xc7e68948c7ffff31, 0x24310f00b195e206, 0xd231f88902460001, 0xe9eb050f03b2 };' > maze.c && gcc -o maze maze.c && ./maze
06:41:05 <HackEgo> ╱╲╱╲╲╱╱╱╲╲╱╲╱╱╲╱╱╲╲╲╲╱╱╱╱╱╲╲╱╲╱╲╱╲╱╲╱╲╲╱╱╱╲╲╱╱╲╱╲╱╱╲╲╱╱╱╲╱╲╲╲╱╲╱╱╱╱╲╲╱╲╲╲╱╲╲╲╱╲╲╱╱╲╱╱╱╱╲╱╱╲╱╲╲╲╲╱╲╲╲╱╲╱╱╲╲╲╱╱╲╱╲╱╱╱
06:41:06 <Fiora> oh. there's no nice way to change rdtsc to rdstcp, they're different sizes :<
06:41:23 <Bike> new favorite program
06:42:01 <shachaf> Fiora: rdtscp because of the fence?
06:42:26 <Fiora> I was wondering if maybe rdtscp might give better results? I'm not sure
06:42:34 <kmc> good night all :)
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06:43:09 <shachaf> Fiora: I tried rdtscp and it also has the / bias.
06:44:19 <Fiora> huh. is / the 0 or the 1?
06:44:51 <Fiora> hmm. maybe the parity of the result might be more random than the lowest bit?
06:45:34 <Fiora> that's super weird though, I'd be really curious about why that's happening
06:45:52 <olsner> kmc: what's this "olsner.troll.moed"?
06:46:19 <shachaf> Referring to that quote, I assume.
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06:48:22 <shachaf> kmc: I get what looks like good randomness looking at bit 2 (i.e. inserting shr $2, %eax after the rdtsc)
06:48:52 <shachaf> If I shift by one I still get long runs of /, and in addition I get some long runs of \
06:49:57 <shachaf> I get all sorts of other patterns shifting by other amounts.
06:52:14 <Fiora> what about popcnt(rdtsc)&1?
06:52:19 <Fiora> does that work maybe?
06:53:13 <shachaf> Now I have to figure out how to popcnt.
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06:54:10 <olsner> I guess the loop usually takes a not-completely-random number of cycles to run
06:54:56 <shachaf> Oh, I can just popcnt %eax, %eax?
06:55:29 <shachaf> olsner: With a syscall in the middle?
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06:58:02 <olsner> sure, that mixes it up a little, or maybe it usually goes through a fast path that just moves a byte into a buffer and moves on
07:01:51 <Fiora> yay for x86 extensions having every instruction ever :3
07:02:56 <shachaf> I see leading zero count but not trailing zero count?!
07:03:17 <shachaf> Oh, even LZCNT is AMD-only.
07:06:24 <shachaf> I should learn how x86 instruction encoding works.
07:07:21 <olsner> there are probably better things to waste brainspace on :)
07:07:55 <Fiora> bsr/bsf can do lzcnt/tzcnt basically?
07:08:11 <Fiora> the main difference with the actual lzcnt/tzcnt instructions is they have defined behavior if the input is zero, I think
07:08:23 <shachaf> Right, I didn't know and/or forgot about bsr.
07:08:33 <Fiora> LZCNT was added by AMD in SSE4a, TZCNT is added in BMI1 (which also nicely includes lzcnt for consistency, so now amd/intel are equal again)
07:08:35 <shachaf> There's always the thing with de Bruijn indices.
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07:08:52 <Fiora> tzcnt has actually a really fun weird property
07:08:58 <Fiora> its opcode is actually equal to "rep bsf"
07:10:24 <Fiora> so you can use tzcnt in code that runs on older cpus, and it will execute fine as long as your code doesn't rely on the specifics of tzcnt (like defined behavior at 0)
07:10:39 <Fiora> it makes valgrind choke though XD
07:11:20 <shachaf> Or at least it did when I tried it.
07:11:57 <Fiora> yeah, but like, "rep bsf" was a thing that worked on earlier cpus, so it's not like it's actually a new instruction
07:13:01 <shachaf> Well, Intel has never cared about backwards compatibility.
07:13:28 <Fiora> oh right, LZCNT does the same thing. LZCNT is "rep bsr"
07:13:33 <shachaf> Are you still supposed to do rep ret?
07:13:34 <Fiora> but that one is deceptive and evil
07:13:48 <Fiora> because, like. "tzcnt" gives the same result as "bsf", I think, when the input isn't 0
07:14:06 <Fiora> but "lzcnt" gives the number of leading zeroes, while "bsr" gives (bits in register) - (number of leading zeroes), I think
07:14:09 <fizzie> I'm pretty sure bsf also has defined behaviour on zero (ZF = 1, undefined value in the register), it just might not be behaviour you'd like.
07:14:43 <fizzie> GCC compiles ffs(i) into bsf + cmovz.
07:14:44 <Fiora> oh. yeah, you're right
07:14:58 <Fiora> it's the result that's undefined not behavior, sorry
07:15:15 <fizzie> And rep ret isn't in the latest AMD optimilization manual any more.
07:15:57 <fizzie> And one manual in-between had replaced it with a three-byte encoding of "ret 0", anyway.
07:16:12 <fizzie> (I suppose perhaps because that's more legal?)
07:16:33 <Fiora> the x86 prefixes have always kind of confused me >_<
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07:17:10 <shachaf> are x86 instructions monoids
07:17:58 <fizzie> Should `? monoid say "Monoids are just x86 instructions" instead?
07:18:46 <HackEgo> Monoids are the easy version of categories.
07:18:49 <HackEgo> Monoids are just categories with a single object.
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07:19:38 <Fiora> speaking of BMI, pdep and pext look like really really cool instructions
07:19:47 <Fiora> they're like, that weird kind of instruction that -looks- raelly cool, but I can't figure out how to use for anything <.<
07:20:31 <shachaf> Oh no, instructions that aren't in my intel\ combined\ manual.pdf
07:20:35 <shachaf> Do I need to download a new one?
07:20:42 <Fiora> http://download.intel.com/products/processor/manual/325383.pdf
07:20:55 <Fiora> the manual doesn't include unreleased instructions (stuff that's in the SDE, but not in released CPUs)
07:21:05 <Fiora> so I'm guessing when haswell comes out they'll add in the avx2 stuff and all that?
07:21:18 <Fiora> moving it from one pdf to another I guess
07:21:22 <Fiora> oh wait no that's the wrong one >_<
07:21:25 <Fiora> http://download-software.intel.com/sites/default/files/m/8/a/1/8/4/36945-319433-011.pdf
07:21:32 <Fiora> sorry, I linked to the regular instruction reference -_-
07:21:40 <shachaf> I can probably manage 2MB.
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07:22:14 <shachaf> There should be a law where you have to expand all the acronyms you use.
07:22:24 <shachaf> I'll call it the AEL[Acronym Expansion Law].
07:23:01 <Fiora> SDE -> Software Development Emulator
07:23:16 <Fiora> it's a super cool thing where you just go sde -- ./program args and it'll magically run the program as if it had all the instructions
07:23:26 <Fiora> with dynamic recompilation and magic
07:24:05 <btiffin> shachaf: sorry, joking. gtwt, good luck with that
07:24:45 <fizzie> Fiora: I'm sure pdep and pext will be well-received by the thousands (if not millions) INTERCAL implementers, for implementing SELECT and MINGLE.
07:24:59 <Fiora> what do those do that pdep/pext will help with?
07:25:20 <fizzie> SELECT *is* pext, I think.
07:25:40 <fizzie> Maybe bit order details are different, I don't know.
07:26:22 <fizzie> But it takes bits from X that correspond to set bits in Y, and packs them to the low end.
07:27:00 <fizzie> And MINGLE interleaves bits from X and Y, in alternating order, which sounds like something pdep could help with.
07:27:10 <fizzie> (pdep+pdep+or, or something.)
07:28:56 <btiffin> curious newbie question; esolang being what it is, ..., what development platforms are people here using for work?
07:29:30 <fizzie> AIUI, they're the building blocks of almost all INTERCAL maths, since they're the only binary operators; AND, OR and XOR are all unary.
07:29:48 <btiffin> I'm building GNU/Linux based machines for placement in hotel rooms. bash, python, php, c, c++, umm, you know Linux land
07:30:10 <Fiora> http://palms.princeton.edu/system/files/IEEE_TC09_NewBasisForShifters.pdf oh fizzie here was the paper I found the other day
07:30:16 <Fiora> it's apparently related to the pdep/pext stuff
07:30:50 <Fiora> it's basically a new type of shifty-bit circuit that's a little higher latency but can do all kinds of crazy arbitrary bit shuffles (like pdep, pext, and stuff) with fewer gates than a normal shift unit
07:31:13 <fizzie> (The unary bitwise ops apply on every two consecutive bits, so if you want regular A&B, you need to mingle A and B, then perform the operation, then SELECT every other bit.)
07:31:24 <Fiora> the author's done a lot of stuff related to stuff like this, she's really awesome
07:31:38 <Fiora> and is apparently a wonderful simd dork
07:32:00 <fizzie> "SIMD dork" is a nice term.
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07:33:14 <Fiora> I think that is an accurate description of me -_-
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07:35:01 <fizzie> As for the at-work question, I suppose most of the code our speech group is involved in is in C++ (dirty parts of the recognizer), MATLAB (research code), Python (glue) and Perl (more glue).
07:36:19 <fizzie> (Some of the Perl might not be entirely glue.)
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07:39:01 <Fiora> I guess the pdep/pext stuff might be squee material for people forced to work with stuff like RGB565
07:39:11 <Fiora> or other weird bit-level-packed data formats
07:39:57 <fizzie> Bit permutations for crypto, perhaps?
07:40:17 <Fiora> are there formats that do that nowadays?
07:40:30 <Fiora> I remember reading that it was a big deal in DES, but that, well, this kind of comes a little late for that XD
07:40:32 <fizzie> I don't really know about modern algorithms.
07:41:26 <Fiora> I know rotates are still a big thing in hashes and stuff
07:41:37 <Fiora> and AES uses table lookups to do GF(2) multiplication on bytes I think
07:41:42 <fizzie> I have a feeling AES is quite byte-oriented.
07:41:44 <Fiora> or something like that (sboxes or something)
07:42:01 <Fiora> but you can apparently do those with pshufb (there's actually a really cool paper on timing-attack-immune pshufb AES)
07:42:10 <Fiora> and of course now it's all sorta silly because of AES-NI
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07:44:11 <Fiora> http://shiftleft.org/papers/vector_aes/vector_aes.pdf oh yay here it is
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08:52:49 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
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09:07:21 <Taneb> Is there a term for when you have two sets, and one of them is a subset of the other, but you don't know which?
09:08:36 <Fiora> the smaller one's got to be the subset, right?
09:10:49 <shachaf> Fiora: Well, they might be the same sizze.
09:13:30 <doesthiswork> but I don't think there is a term for uncertain subsetyness
09:13:54 <fizzie> Taneb: It's called two-sets-and-one's-a-subset-but-I-dunno-which, HTH, HAND.
09:14:54 <Taneb> Fiora, you might not know the size, or they might be infinite?
09:18:23 <Taneb> The reason I want to know this is kinda really stupid
09:18:55 <Taneb> It's about Venn diagrams
09:19:29 <lambdabot> http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/ghc/newticket?type=bug
09:19:50 <Taneb> I want to be able to describe annuloid (?) Venn diagrams
09:19:56 <Taneb> Fiora, tender embraces between two people
09:20:16 <shachaf> Taneb: what i do with my tender is none of your business
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09:21:43 <fizzie> Maybe you could use some sort of a symbol that's a combination of ⊆ and ⊇ -- a bit like ≶ but with the dash too -- to describe your situation. There's for example ⫓, ⫔, ⫗ or ⫘.
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09:24:14 <fizzie> Oh, there's ⋚, I just missed it.
09:24:35 <fizzie> Wonder how much use the "less than, equal to or greater than" operator gets.
09:25:18 <Taneb> "it's probably a real number"
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09:25:22 <Taneb> "that's all we know"
09:26:15 <fizzie> > ≻ ⊱ oh no it's curling up
09:26:15 <lambdabot> mueval: recoverEncode: invalid argument (invalid character)
09:26:23 <fizzie> lambdabot: That's not what I meant.
09:27:16 <fizzie> (Unicode: the best thing for people on sick leave?)
09:31:25 <ais523> fizzie: presumably ⋚ is the unicody way of writing <=> from Perl
09:34:01 <fizzie> As usual, there's both ⋚ and ⋛. (If they do have the semantics of the Perl <=>, perhaps the other one could be reversed.)
09:34:43 <shachaf> I would *hope* that ⋚ is a relation.
09:36:16 <Taneb> (⋚) :: Ord a => a -> a -> Bool; _ ⋚ _ = True
09:36:25 <Deewiant> D had <>= which basically meant that both sides can't be NaN, IIRC
09:36:48 <shachaf> Not "x <>= y" ---> "x = x <> y"?
09:37:06 <Deewiant> x !<>= x was equivalent to isnan(x)
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09:41:35 <fizzie> > let (<=>) = ((pred . fromEnum) .) . compare in zipWith (<=>) [1,2,3] [3,2,1]
09:43:30 <shachaf> > let (<=>) = (signum.).(-) in zipWith (<=>) [1,2,3] [3,2,1]
09:44:49 <Deewiant> > let (<=>) = (signum.).(-) in maxBound <=> (-1 :: Int)
09:46:51 <Deewiant> Still needs -2 for isNaN anyway
09:47:47 <shachaf> I just posted to a Haskell mailing list about how people weren't giving NaNs the respect they deserve.
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09:59:43 <shachaf> Taneb: Unasked as in unspoken.
09:59:50 <shachaf> You could be an acting acting teacher.
10:00:20 <Taneb> I have considered it, oddly
10:00:36 <Taneb> Being an acting student
10:00:47 <shachaf> Why did you consider it oddly?
10:01:09 <Taneb> I sort of did a headstand then asked all my friends whether I should
10:01:29 * Fiora glances up, hugs Taneb
10:01:32 <shachaf> What about your #esoteric pals?
10:01:54 <Taneb> I hadn't met Fiora back then
10:02:00 <Taneb> And I was in a hurry, with no time to IRC
10:02:24 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
10:02:40 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
10:02:52 <HackEgo> D-modules are just modules over the ring of differential operators. Taneb invented them.
10:03:16 <Taneb> At least half of it is
10:03:24 <Taneb> Perhaps even three quarters.
10:03:43 <shachaf> You invented them, and they're modules over the ring of differential operators, but they're unjust?
10:03:58 <lambdabot> *** "justice" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
10:03:59 <lambdabot> n 1: the quality of being just or fair [syn: {justice},
10:03:59 <lambdabot> {justness}] [ant: {injustice}, {unjustness}]
10:03:59 <lambdabot> 2: judgment involved in the determination of rights and the
10:04:03 <lambdabot> assignment of rewards and punishments
10:04:04 <lambdabot> 3: a public official authorized to decide questions brought
10:04:06 <lambdabot> before a court of justice [syn: {judge}, {justice}, {jurist}]
10:04:07 -!- jix has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
10:04:08 <lambdabot> 4: the United States federal department responsible for
10:04:10 <lambdabot> enforcing federal laws (including the enforcement of all
10:04:12 <lambdabot> civil rights legislation); created in 1870 [syn: {Department
10:04:15 <lambdabot> of Justice}, {Justice Department}, {Justice}, {DoJ}]
10:04:29 <shachaf> `learn Justice is just behavior or treatment.
10:04:36 <shachaf> I'll just go with Google define:'s definition.
10:04:41 -!- jix has joined.
10:05:03 <Taneb> Justice is just an endofunctor in the category of morals
10:05:10 <fizzie> Sometimes justice is just ice.
10:05:30 <shachaf> sometimes monoids are just mono ids
10:05:36 -!- doesthiswork has joined.
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10:06:02 <HackEgo> cohnspihrahbiohlohgy ihs whehre mohth cohlouhrihngs fohrm a doht mahtrihx dihsplay to sehnd you suhblihmihnahl mehssahgehs.
10:06:42 <Taneb> shachaf, D-modules are just modules over rings of differential operators, and someone called M. G. M. van Doorn wrote an article on them which is cited by Wikipedia
10:07:03 <HackEgo> Sihbehria ihs the cahpihtahl ohf Fihnlahnd. Iht's whehre the Fiehlds Mehdahl wahs fihrst syhnthehsihsehd.
10:07:20 <HackEgo> sgeolang currently is either J or Io.
10:07:39 <HackEgo> The friendship monqy is an ancient Chinese mystery; ask itidus21 for details.
10:07:51 <shachaf> @ask monqy i love friendship monqy !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
10:08:23 <HackEgo> Comonads are just monads in the dual category.
10:08:26 <HackEgo> Comonads are just monads in the dual category.
10:08:42 <shachaf> There's a pluraliszer in `?
10:08:46 -!- nooodl has joined.
10:08:52 <HackEgo> gazspacho is a hungarian szoup, tradizsonally szerved cold for hot szummer dayz
10:09:03 <HackEgo> ngevd is a fake wisdom entry. `? ngevd is special-cased in bin/?. leave this file alone Phantom_Hoover‼
10:09:23 <HackEgo> Fiora is a freakin' vriskapologist.
10:11:58 <HackEgo> Your evil overlord oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also a lying Norwegian.
10:14:27 <Fiora> can we please change mine :<
10:14:47 <shachaf> `learn Fiora isn't a freakin' vriskapologist.
10:15:05 <HackEgo> Fiora isn't a freakin' vriskapologist.
10:15:11 <Fiora> `learn Fiora this is a test
10:16:51 <shachaf> you can't leave it like that ........................
10:17:48 <Fiora> `learn Fiora is half JRPG fangirl, half SIMD dork, and all sucrose.
10:18:28 <shachaf> wow i thought you were fructose :'(
10:20:39 <Fiora> but sucrose contains fructose!
10:22:13 <shachaf> i thought you were all fructose
10:23:16 <ais523> what's a vriskapologist anyway?
10:23:56 <HackEgo> Fiora is half JRPG fangirl, half SIMD dork, and all sucrose.
10:24:25 <ais523> shachaf: that doesn't answer the question, and might not even be true because she changed it
10:24:50 <shachaf> ais523: "Vriska" is a character in a comic strip that some people here read.
10:25:08 <ais523> I read some comic strips occasionally, but not that one
10:26:09 <fizzie> We can remember it for you wholesale.
10:26:17 <HackEgo> bin/emptylist \ bin/instalist \ bin/list \ bin/listen \ bin/makelist \ bin/mlist \ bin/olist \ bin/pbflist \ bin/pbflistdeluxe \ bin/slist \ bin/smlist \ bin/testlist
10:26:19 <Fiora> I never set it to that to begin with, it was someone teasing me
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10:26:44 <shachaf> We can put you on `pbflist or even on `pbflistdeluxe
10:26:54 <shachaf> Or `smlist. Everyone loves super mega comics.
10:27:04 <ais523> shachaf: I'm not a fan of the `list notification just because I might not be in the channel at the time, so I'm going to check the site anyway
10:27:08 <fizzie> Most of the personal wisdoms might be third-party-set.
10:27:14 <ais523> and also I often don't want to look at the comics the instant they update
10:27:29 <ais523> but rather, when I'm not at work and have some free time
10:27:38 <shachaf> But what if they update once every few months?
10:27:38 <ais523> and have nothing better to do
10:27:43 <shachaf> Do you want to check them every day?
10:27:49 <ais523> shachaf: then I'll likely check once every few years :)
10:28:02 <shachaf> With `pbflistdeluxe, you don't need to be in the channel.
10:28:05 <shachaf> We get the message to you.
10:28:18 <ais523> there /are/ some things that could interestingly do with updates, such as new IOCCC s
10:28:30 <shachaf> Feel free to make an ioccclist.
10:28:31 <ais523> but we normally put those in the topic because everyone here should theoretically be interested in them
10:28:54 <shachaf> I thought the topic was for jokes and off-topic things.
10:28:57 <fizzie> I'd like to be put on the elerlist, please.
10:29:01 <ais523> should we put the UCC in the topic, incidentally? it's not an exact fit for the channel, but I imagine many people here would be interested in it
10:29:02 <shachaf> For that matter, that's what I thought the channel was for.
10:29:22 <shachaf> But who hasn't heard of it already?
10:29:27 <ais523> shachaf: well the channel is a community for people with common interests
10:29:49 <ais523> it turns out that people who like esolangs generally tend to like various other things too
10:31:09 -!- Taneb has set topic: Koen_: be a Haskell person. | am i rye? 'course i am! | Underhanded C Contest: http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
10:32:12 <ais523> shachaf: fwiw, topic notifications moderately indirectly lead to me gaining a lot of money
10:32:16 <ais523> so they're not exactly useless
10:32:32 <ais523> and nothing prevents them coexisting with random garbage
10:33:34 <ais523> shachaf: well, most of the people here are interested in at least one esolang
10:33:59 <Taneb> It was a toss-up between taking Economics and Drama, and I ended up doing Latin
10:34:05 <ais523> and yet, we can sustain discussions aout other things for a while with many people participating, and occasionally the occasional person complaining in a passive-aggressive way with everyone else ignoring them
10:35:01 <ais523> shachaf: well it was about a competition with prize money offered
10:35:20 <ais523> allegedly a result in computability theory, but it was actually an esoprogamming competition in disguise
10:35:38 <ais523> (I suspect the reason I won may have been because other people attempting didn't realise it was about esoprogramming)
10:35:58 <Taneb> What was the goal of the competition?
10:36:26 <Jafet> A new kind of computability theory
10:37:24 <ais523> Taneb: it was the 2,3 machine thing
10:37:51 <ais523> if you've somehow managed to miss the story, I can go over it again
10:37:59 <Taneb> Nah, I know the story
10:38:13 <ais523> which is why I was surprised at your question
10:38:49 <Taneb> I was just imagining something more like the IOCCC or UCC
10:40:02 <Taneb> Did anyone ever come up with a less controversial proof?
10:41:50 <Jafet> I don't think the proof is the controversial part
10:42:03 <shachaf> I heard the story at the time but I didn't know it was ais523.
10:42:11 <shachaf> I probably wasn't in the channel at the time.
10:42:22 <ais523> Taneb: the controversy is not about the proof itself, but about what it's proving
10:42:47 <ais523> and I agree with pretty much everyone else that the situation is currently poorly-defined
10:43:13 <ais523> and would like to find better definitions, together with a demonstration that the examples in the proof fit that definition, before actually publishing
10:43:18 <Taneb> From this information I can estimate your age! Ahahaha!
10:43:24 <ais523> btw, by "example" here I mean the opposite of "counterexample"
10:43:34 <ais523> as in, something that proves the entire theorem just by existing
10:43:36 <shachaf> i estimate ais523's age at 523
10:43:46 <ais523> rather than "something added to make it easier to understand"
10:43:55 <ais523> it'd be nice if we had two different words for those concepts
10:44:13 <Taneb> "countercounter example"
10:44:32 <shachaf> Taneb: Uh, we're kind of intuitionists around here...
10:44:53 <ais523> shachaf: not in general; I rarely find reasons to use intuionistic logic
10:44:58 <ais523> linear logic, otoh, I use all the time
10:46:18 <ais523> oh, I have a question for #esoteric
10:46:28 <shachaf> Intuitionistic logic seems to fit well with a lot of programming things. Maybe they aren't esoteric enough.
10:46:28 <ais523> how would you interpret "λf.λx.λx.f(x)(x)"?
10:46:46 <Taneb> Same as λf.λy.λx.f(x)(x)
10:46:48 <shachaf> I would like to read it as xs referring to the inner one.
10:47:09 <ais523> OK, so you're mentally interpreting the lambdas as having lexical scope
10:47:12 <ais523> I guess that's reasonable
10:47:27 <shachaf> I don't think f(x)(x) syntax is standard.
10:47:38 <shachaf> Is it hinting at something that I'm missing?
10:47:40 <Taneb> Otherwise alpha equivalence would yield incorrect results?
10:47:46 <ais523> shachaf: it is standard, just the concept it's describing is normally not often used in languages that have that function call notation
10:48:09 <shachaf> I mean standard in the same line with λs.
10:48:22 <ais523> that's mathematical notation
10:48:30 <shachaf> It's one kind of mathematical notation.
10:48:33 <ais523> I did it that way so it wouldn't remind people of any particular programming language
10:48:48 <shachaf> The lambdas remind me of lambda calculus, which is pretty well-defined.
10:48:57 <shachaf> I thought this was just a question of where we put the parentheses.
10:48:58 <Taneb> It reminded me of my days messing with Python's lambda construct
10:49:11 <shachaf> If it's a questionf lexical vs. dynamic scope, well, dynamic scope is crazy.
10:49:21 <ais523> anyway, the most obvious semantic interpretation appears to be equivalent λf.λx.λy.f(x)(x); the λx replaces all the xs, then there aren't any more xs left for the other λx to replace
10:49:31 <Taneb> shachaf, what do you think of mixed scope?
10:50:13 <shachaf> ais523: Do you also have this interpretation for λf.λx.λx.f(x) ?
10:50:24 <shachaf> If so the other x is just muddling things up.
10:50:31 <ais523> shachaf: yeah, but that other x adds new possible answers
10:50:57 <ais523> before you say that's absurd, that's actually what the standard mathematical categorical semantics produces
10:51:08 <ais523> I spent all last night writing a multi-page essay on why it's wrong :)
10:51:15 <Taneb> λf.(λx.(λx.(f(x))(x))) is how I imagine it, ridiculously bracketed
10:51:27 <ais523> Taneb: yeah, it parses like that
10:51:33 <ais523> the question is how the lambdas match the xs
10:51:34 <Taneb> Which contains (λx.(f(x))(x)) which has an obvious meaning
10:52:03 <Taneb> Which can be alpha-converted
10:52:07 <shachaf> I think being able to extract any subexpression the way Taneb did -- possibly with free variables -- is a good property.
10:52:16 <shachaf> I'm not sure I understand where your interpretation comes from.
10:52:35 <Taneb> Which leads to incorrect results with the semantic interpretation
10:52:52 <ais523> OK, so if we're working in a linear logic
10:53:02 <ais523> (λx.(f(x))(x)) is an open term
10:53:15 <ais523> because you're using two xs, but only supplying one
10:53:21 <ais523> there's still a free x floating around somewhere
10:53:35 <shachaf> I don't know much linear logic. :-(
10:53:43 <ais523> the original type system, it's a little unclear whether it's a linear logic or not
10:53:46 <Taneb> You're using it twice
10:53:52 <ais523> but it does require the number of lambdas to match the number of variables
10:54:01 <Taneb> ((λx.(f(x))) (x)) would use it once
10:54:01 <shachaf> But I don't like any interpretation that would just refer to two different xs.
10:54:08 <Taneb> And require a free, floating x somewhere
10:54:31 <ais523> so the problem with the traditional mathematical semantics that I'm arguing against
10:54:39 <ais523> is that it doesn't actually keep track of variable names at all
10:54:45 <ais523> so it can't observe that the two xs are the same
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10:54:58 <ais523> it just sees two lambdas, and two variable uses, and thinks everything is fine
10:55:08 <Taneb> Hang on, are you saying that we're right but unconventional, or wrong AND unconventional
10:55:34 <shachaf> Taneb: I don't think anyone's saying anything about "right" or "wrong".
10:55:46 <ais523> Taneb: I think you're righter than the conventional definition
10:55:55 <ais523> but also that you're assuming too much sanity
10:56:03 <shachaf> Well, maybe some people are.
10:56:15 <shachaf> ais523: Clearly the solution is de Bruijn indices.
10:56:38 <ais523> shachaf: the funny thing is, I think the traditional categorical semantics is actually correct for de Bruijn indices
10:56:42 <ais523> but wrong for variable names
10:56:57 <Taneb> (cf Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download)
10:57:00 <ais523> Taneb: anyway, alpha-conversion is clearly required for closed terms
10:57:08 <ais523> also, I should really read that language
10:57:14 <ais523> the problem with serious languages with spammy names
10:57:19 <ais523> is that I note that they're not spam
10:57:28 <Taneb> ais523, have you seen Binary lambda calculus?
10:57:30 <ais523> and then mentally disregard them
10:57:37 <ais523> Taneb: yes but I can't remember how it works
10:57:55 <Taneb> Essentially like Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download, but with different I/O
10:58:34 <Taneb> (Binary lambda calculus's IO is bitwise, Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download is character-wise)
10:58:59 <ais523> right, and it has an obfuscating syntax for no good reason
10:59:17 <Taneb> It's not obfuscating! It's perfectly readable!
10:59:26 <ais523> (I don't hate it as much as PH hates BF derivatives, but it does disappoint me)
10:59:50 <Taneb> (it was originally a functional version of BIT)
11:00:16 <ais523> btw, I just random-paged onto Numberwang (your version)
11:01:04 <ais523> I'm trying to work out what made you come up with that operation for determining a command
11:01:14 <ais523> which I originally thought was mod 9 mod 4, but isn't because of the decimals
11:01:31 <Taneb> It's digital root mod 4
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11:02:04 <Taneb> Basically, I wanted any terminating decimal to end up as one of the four commands
11:02:20 <ais523> yeah, digital root normally means mod 9
11:02:42 <ais523> it took me a moment to realise it was different on floats
11:02:54 <ais523> (fun fact: all floats are terminating decimals)
11:02:55 <Taneb> It's defined as the sum of the digits
11:03:03 <ais523> (although not vice versa)
11:03:14 <ais523> Taneb: I thought it's defined as repeatedly summing the digits
11:03:15 <Taneb> Which is well-defined for terminating decimals
11:03:18 <ais523> until you get down to just one digit
11:03:44 <Taneb> Sorry, my thoughts skipped about 10 steps
11:04:47 <ais523> ooh, I just randomed onto Radixal!!!!
11:04:51 <ais523> I like these combined effort languages
11:05:03 <Taneb> There should be more IMO
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12:47:20 <Taneb> What's the best way of working out what the largest natural k is such that n mod m ^ k = 0 for some natural m and n?
12:47:48 <Taneb> (eg, if n = 96 and m = 2, k = 5 because 2^5 * 3 = 96)
12:52:59 <Jafet> > let exercise n m | mod n m /= 0 = 0 | otherwise = 1 + exercise (div n m) m in exercise 96 2
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13:22:51 <tromp_> that's the max exponent in the factorization
13:23:16 <tromp_> but they may be easier way to obtain it
13:25:02 <ion> Thanks for not saying “they=there”.
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13:35:58 <boily> > let they = there in there = they
13:36:00 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:27: parse error on input `='
13:36:08 <boily> > let they = there in there == they
13:36:10 <lambdabot> Not in scope: `there'Not in scope: `there'
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14:50:51 <Taneb> ...it is cheaper to fly to London than to bus there
14:51:29 <Taneb> With a complementary meal service, no less!
14:51:30 <Lumpio-> Kind of depends on where you are I'd imagine.
14:53:03 <Taneb> Leaving about half three on June the 3rd
14:53:18 <Taneb> Of course, with a plane, you still need to buy a tube ticket
14:53:28 <Lumpio-> Half three is one and a half
14:54:00 <Lumpio-> We actually say something like "half five" etc in Finnish and that means 4:30
14:54:23 <Lumpio-> It's not even like "half to five" but just "half five" literally
14:54:40 <Taneb> Especially as British English does the same but backwards
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14:57:06 <ais523> Lumpio-: that happens in German too
14:57:24 <Lumpio-> Maybe it's like roman numerals
14:57:36 <Lumpio-> Put a smaller digit before a larger one and it's subtracted
14:57:54 <fizzie> Could you then say "five half" for "half six"?
14:58:25 <fizzie> You can say "five thirty", FWIW.
14:59:27 <Taneb> Even when taking into account Metro and Tube, it is cheaper and quicker to go via plane, metro, and tube to travel from Newcastle Central Station to King's Cross
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15:01:29 <kmc> just think, by 2035 or so you might be able to take a high speed train 2/3 of the way
15:02:22 <Taneb> It'll still be slower and more expensive
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15:08:47 <fizzie> Hey, what do all y'all (that's the plural of y'all, right?) use for non-GUIfic conversion of RTF to plaintext?
15:09:49 <fizzie> 'aptitude search' finds an 'unrtf', which has a promising name.
15:10:08 -!- boily has joined.
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15:11:46 <Lumpio-> I doubt many of us'all use RTF in the first place
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15:17:35 <kmc> shachaf, Fiora: yeah my work machine produces all sorts of strange patterns with the maze thing
15:17:57 <kmc> i like it :)
15:20:25 <kmc> damn, I missed a long discussion of new x86 instructions
15:20:40 <Fiora> I posted a cool paper or two
15:20:59 <Fiora> though I can't remember if you're like bike with regards to subsisting on academic papers XD
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15:22:11 <Fiora> "Trading is halted until 2013-04-12 02:00am UTC to allow the market to cooldown following the drop in price. Read more details on the support. Additionally trading fees will not be charged within 48 hours of trading resuming (until 2013-04-14 02:00am UTC)." also kmc, oh dears
15:25:00 <kmc> Fiora: i like to read or at least skim cool papers
15:25:16 <kmc> trading halt at MtGox?
15:25:22 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
15:25:28 <kmc> bitcoinity.org/markets is still showing trades
15:25:33 <kmc> around $120
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15:26:01 <Fiora> Yeah, trading halt at mtgox
15:26:32 <Fiora> I'm guessing they're trying to upgrade their systems really fast, apparently they got like 20,000 new accounts in the past day
15:26:51 <Fiora> gosh this is a silly bubble
15:28:20 <Taneb> I don't know how bitcoins work
15:28:30 <Taneb> But at the same time I don't really know how any currency works
15:28:55 <kmc> Taneb: do you want a quick technical explanation of how bitcoins work
15:29:00 <kmc> or do you mean more like the economics of it
15:29:04 <Taneb> Right now I want a hug
15:29:09 * kmc hugs Taneb
15:29:17 <kmc> not as good over IRC, i know
15:29:50 <Taneb> I'm on the cusp of feeling really down
15:30:10 <kmc> about anything in particular?
15:31:11 <Taneb> Someone being a bit nasty on Facebook, someone else not being online
15:32:29 <Taneb> So, actually, yes, something in particular
15:37:52 <Fiora> kmc: oh so like, the woman I mentioned who was doing the bit hacky stuff if you were glancing at the logs
15:38:05 <Fiora> bike jokingly called her a personification of IBM but he's not far off
15:38:42 <Fiora> she apparently has like, hundreds of patents, and invented to some degree or another three different CPU architectures
15:39:09 <Fiora> she was chief architect at HP for like a decade
15:39:33 <Fiora> designed PA-RISC, worked on designing IA-64 too
15:40:27 <tromp_> i'm more impressed with the former:)
15:40:54 <Fiora> ( http://www.princeton.edu/~rblee/ )
15:46:55 <boily> we have a snowstorm beginning at 2am tonight, shifting into slushstorm at 2pm on Friday, with a slight respite around 10pm then aftermath until 9am on Saturday.
15:47:01 <Taneb> This is getting out of hand, Tha
15:47:09 <kmc> group hugs are great
15:47:17 <boily> ThatOtherPerson: are you impersonating some kind of octopus with all that large-scale hugging?
15:47:29 <Taneb> kmc, when I do them, it ends up with everyone on the floor and someone getting crushed
15:47:55 <kmc> 'everyone on the floor' is not necessarily bad
15:48:02 <Taneb> Perhaps they're too contagious around here
15:48:48 <ThatOtherPerson> Huh, one of my British friends said that the British were not into hugs.
15:49:00 <boily> if your floors are contagious, you have a more pressing problem than worrying about crushing people.
15:50:11 <Taneb> ThatOtherPerson, it may be more of a rural thing, or a northern thing, or a rural people in the north thing
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15:59:49 <ais523> ThatOtherPerson: they're not very common, although there are a few situations in which they're socially acceptable
16:00:44 <fizzie> Like meeting strangers in a subway?
16:02:02 <Taneb> So, you've heard a southerner, a northerner, and a mindlands-er
16:02:38 <fizzie> I liked the round tunnels of the Tube.
16:03:24 <impomatic> Have you seen any of the urban exploration stuff where they explore abandoned tube stations?
16:03:51 <kmc> tuuuuuuuuuuuuuube
16:04:32 <Taneb> When they were digging tunnels for the Tyne-Wear Metro, they found an unexploded bomb from the second world war.
16:04:51 <Taneb> If that bomb had exploded, it would have killed my gran and great grandfather
16:04:58 <impomatic> Hugs are almost acceptable around here, but a little awkward. You shouldn't hug someone when they arrive. It's sometimes okay to hug someone when they leave. Only hug with one arm. Follow these three rules and you should be fine.
16:05:10 <kmc> ThatOtherPerson: because they're awesome
16:05:49 <impomatic> I like anything underground :-) Caves, subways, crypts, bunkers...
16:05:50 <kmc> http://ugcs.net/~arapp/timelines/europe.html
16:06:36 <boily> we have a pretty nice subway here, with all kinds of entertainment and service interruptions.
16:06:50 <fizzie> Taneb: If life was a video game, they'd have blown it up to make a hole to save some digging.
16:07:11 <fizzie> It would have made a perfectly spherical empty space.
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16:08:06 <kmc> TIL there are sweet-tasting mushrooms: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Candy_cap
16:08:39 -!- carado has joined.
16:10:26 <kmc> going to look for Mycena corticola today
16:10:33 <kmc> really tiny mushrooms that pop out of the sides of trees after it rains
16:11:22 <kmc> fungi are the best
16:11:40 <fungot> ThatOtherPerson: how's that?
16:11:41 <Taneb> I don't trust myself enough to pick fungi to eat
16:11:47 <Taneb> But I will eat mushrooms
16:11:50 * impomatic is too scared to eat fungi that I find
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16:12:17 * ThatOtherPerson think fungi are an alien life form biding their time to try to conquer the planet
16:12:18 <kmc> impomatic: yeah, identifying them is tricky
16:12:52 <kmc> you can get advice on http://www.shroomery.org/forums/postlist.php/Board/3
16:13:09 <fungot> ThatOtherPerson: bar stuff? who knows, perhaps fnord the fnord giant?
16:13:13 <impomatic> ThatOtherPerson: wouldn't alien life forms still be natural (unless cloned / engineered)
16:14:13 <impomatic> kmc: I can identify a few. Unfortunately the ones which are easy to identify tend to be poisonous.
16:14:27 <kmc> i think oyster mushrooms are pretty easy to identify
16:14:29 <kmc> and are tasty
16:14:30 <kmc> not sure, though
16:15:58 <kmc> spore print is very useful for making an identification
16:16:02 <kmc> but that takes like a day
16:16:13 <kmc> mushroom ident guides are usually organized by spore color first
16:16:16 <impomatic> kmc: I haven't seen those around here. Mostly fly agaric, something that grow out of a tree (beefsteak?), puffballs, shaggy inkcap, and something brown that could be anything.
16:16:31 <kmc> yeah, so many kinds of little brown mushrooms
16:17:14 <kmc> puffballs are neat
16:17:31 <impomatic> Apparently we have blue stems (whatever they are) which sell for 60 per kilo.
16:18:07 <kmc> "blue stem" makes me think psilocybin :)
16:18:29 <kmc> in that case they might be more than £60 per kilo!
16:18:58 <kmc> hm shaggy inkcap is nematophagous (oysters are too)
16:19:06 <kmc> they trap and kill nematodes for their delicious nitrogen
16:19:40 <Lymia> For some reason, I have to connect through my VPS to access the research library server using school wireless
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16:37:18 <fizzie> MUSHROOM RULES: 1) Learn to recognize poisonous mushrooms. 2) Only eat mushrooms that you recognize.
16:37:22 <fizzie> (Yeah, I already did that "joke" on-channel, but since it was topical...)
16:39:30 <kmc> the shroomery forum has a lot of posts like "I just ate these mushrooms, what were they?"
16:39:33 <kmc> i don't understand these people...
16:39:59 <fizzie> If you can fit something in your mouth, it's edible.
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17:01:54 <Phantom_Hoover> if you can fit something in your mouth and swallow it's edible
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17:07:08 <tromp_> the part before "and" appears redundant...
17:07:17 -!- sebbu has joined.
17:07:50 <tromp_> leaving us with swallable (sounds more fun than swallowable)
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17:09:00 <tromp_> funny hits you get if you google that...
17:09:21 <Taneb> You know, in addition to a rabbi, I've also pretended to be a king
17:09:32 <kmc> the bony king of nowhere?
17:09:54 <Taneb> ...the young Edward-y king of England
17:10:32 <Taneb> I've also pretended to be Queen Elizabeth the first, but that was a desperate plea for attention
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18:30:51 <elliott> The writer's identify is Barbara Bob and her spouse does not like it at all. Her spouse will not like it the way she does but what she definitely likes doing is cooking and she would never give it up. Years ago she moved to Maryland. Her working day career is a meter reader.
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18:36:11 <kmc> elliott: sounds like Wesley Willis
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18:38:17 <elliott> http://brianmckenna.org/blog/category_theory_promisesaplus oh boy, I can't wait to find out the ways in which this has nothing at all to do with category theory
18:38:43 <elliott> Putting it together, here's the monad class
18:38:48 <kmc> might be all the ways
18:38:51 <elliott> thanks for saying this without even mentioning what a typeclass is at all
18:38:56 <elliott> really going to help your readers
18:39:24 <elliott> function flatMap(p, f) { return p.then(f);
18:39:30 <elliott> HOLY SHIT I CAN'T HANDLE THE CATEGORY THEORY IT'S TOO MUCH!!
18:39:40 <kmc> here are some fairly simple things from Haskell but i'm going to call them "Category Theory" to show i'm hardcore!
18:39:49 <kmc> also not say what a category is
18:40:04 <elliott> The above will work for any monad. List of lists? Optional optional value? If the JavaScript community settled on using flatMap as a method, we could write DRY, generalised code for monads.
18:40:15 <kmc> DRY is an adjective now I guess
18:40:17 <elliott> good thing monads don't have return
18:40:50 <kmc> elliott: sounds like someone is in for a rude awakening in re: monad transformers
18:41:08 <elliott> "So where exactly is the category theory in this, opposed to just providing a sane API? Does the author actually understand category theory? How does it matter that the interface has similarities to concepts in category theory? Is there any valuable proof or construction we can get out of this?"
18:41:15 <elliott> you know an article is bad when the /r/programming comments are better
18:41:24 <kmc> that's rock bottom
18:41:51 <elliott> "By my unscientific count there were 13 counts of monad and 8 counts of functor in that article. That seems well above the expected number given your comment, which would suggest there were no ideas from category theory in it."
18:41:52 <shachaf> elliott: "By my unscientific count there were 13 counts of monad and 8 counts of functor in that article. That seems well above the expected number given your comment, which would suggest there were no ideas from category theory in it."
18:42:24 <kmc> i want a chrome extension that gives me the monad / functor count for every page
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18:43:08 <kmc> 'As a solo artist, Willis created more than 50 albums, each with over 20 tracks, full of bizarre, tense, and often obscene rants about crime, fast food, cultural trends, bus routes, violent confrontations with superheroes, commands for his "demons" to engage in bestiality, and praise for his favorite actors, friends (both platonic and romantic), politicians, and hip-hop and rock artists.'
18:43:15 <shachaf> elliott: is category new monad?
18:43:41 <kmc> in b4 burrito
18:43:45 <kmc> also hichaf
18:45:02 <shachaf> why do you hate burritos :'(
18:45:17 <Taneb> I'm still not quite sure what a burrito is
18:45:29 <Taneb> I'm imagining something like a tortilla
18:45:31 <Taneb> Or perhaps a monad
18:46:28 <shachaf> kmc: imo next time you're looking for a burrito in mountain view you should go to the taqueria on rengstorff & old middlefield
18:47:01 <kmc> not sure if Taneb is serious
18:47:10 <Taneb> (the last line wasn't serious)
18:47:12 <shachaf> hmm, there are three taquerias on that corner
18:47:19 <Taneb> (I am, though, unsure exactly what a burrito is)
18:47:24 <shachaf> you should go to the one in the back of the little grocery store
18:47:25 <kmc> Taneb: it's a burrito rolled up into a fat tube, filled with stuff like beans, rice, meat, guacamole, lettuce, etc
18:47:30 <kmc> a tortilla rolled up
18:47:37 <kmc> sorry 2 give non well founded definition
18:47:44 <shachaf> I never had a burrito before I moved to CA.
18:47:59 <shachaf> I'm not sure I knew what they were.
18:48:02 <elliott> kmc: that just makes burritos codata
18:48:04 <kmc> Taneb: each one will have different stuff; beans and rice are pretty essential tho
18:48:14 <elliott> kmc: you can always peel off the next fat tube in a finite amount of time
18:48:15 <kmc> elliott: true you can 'unwap' each layer in finite time
18:48:27 <kmc> welp time to write a codata tutorial
18:48:43 <Taneb> In that case, I may have eaten a number of burritos today
18:48:53 <Taneb> (there was tortilla, chilli, and rice)
18:49:01 <Taneb> (the chilli contained beans?_
18:53:02 <kmc> seems legit
18:53:08 <kmc> it's a p. broad category of food
18:53:13 <kmc> SF has a "sushiritto" restaurant
18:53:22 <kmc> a v. SF sort of thing
18:53:36 <olsner> is that sushi+burrito?
18:55:49 <kmc> it's a sushi roll in the size and shape of a burrito
18:55:55 <kmc> http://www.sushirrito.com/
18:56:34 <kmc> oh i forgot to mention cheese above, most burritos have cheese
18:56:37 <Taneb> Hexham has a greek restaurant
18:56:37 <kmc> and/or sour cream
18:56:42 <Taneb> Apparently it's crap
18:57:12 <shachaf> Taneb: imo move to california???????
18:57:35 <Taneb> imo fix your healthcare and gun laws
18:58:13 <kmc> fair retort
18:58:26 <kmc> MA has semi-fixed healthcare anyway
18:58:35 <kmc> it's not great but it's less fucked than the rest of the USA
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18:59:33 <kmc> this was one of Governor Romney's big accomplishments before he ran for President and had to suddenly hate that program
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19:42:09 <Fiora> Taneb / ThatOtherPerson: http://fioraaeterna.tumblr.com/post/37966564090/ :3
19:42:41 <Taneb> I'VE BEEN DOING IT ALL WRONG
19:43:31 <Fiora> it's never too late to learn!
19:43:34 -!- sirdancealo2 has joined.
19:44:00 <Bike> well, it's probably too late if backs have already been broken.
19:44:19 <shachaf> There are always more backs out there to break.
19:44:34 -!- oerjan has joined.
19:45:14 <Taneb> (I am a reasonably tall chap who is keen on hugs and has a number of shorter friends, this comes up a lot)
19:45:15 <Fiora> yes but like you can still learn
19:46:03 <Fiora> (in all fairness, I also like the "bury head in chest cling" hug too, but that probably doesn't leave much for the tall person to do)
19:46:46 <Taneb> (I once brought a book)
19:47:49 <shachaf> was it called "how to hug"
19:47:57 <shachaf> i think that was a dictionary hth
19:48:19 <Taneb> It was called Star Smashers of the Galaxy Rangers
19:48:26 <Taneb> It's a silly pulp sci-fi
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19:49:00 <Fiora> what does that book have to do with hugging o_O
19:49:23 <Taneb> About a couple of college students who accidentally make a FTL drive powered by American artificial cheddar
19:49:36 <Taneb> Fiora, very little, it just happened to be the book I had on me at the time
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19:50:26 <elliott> kmc: why isn't strace nice and simple
19:50:48 <kmc> an elegant modern strace duuuuuuuuuffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff
19:50:57 <Taneb> elliott, because it's not part of @'s core utils
19:51:20 <elliott> an strace that celebrates craftsmanship
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19:51:38 <elliott> kmc: all i want to know is why clicking on links in urxvt is broken
19:51:46 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: he didnt he said duuuuuuuuuffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff
19:51:52 <Bike> hey does anyone here like akira
19:52:06 <Taneb> I've heard of akira
19:52:13 <Taneb> can't remember in which context, though
19:52:14 <Bike> not good enough.
19:52:31 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akira
19:52:42 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akira -- insecure link for people who aren't shachaf
19:53:22 <shachaf> only insecure people click on insecure links
19:54:14 <elliott> http://sprunge.us/FWaP ok so this is the problem
19:54:17 <Bike> though the comic's great too, if longer
19:54:24 <Taneb> Might give it a shot
19:54:26 <elliott> URxvt.urlLauncher: chromium
19:54:28 <Bike> it's four thousand pages or some crap
19:54:36 <shachaf> https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Akira # MAXIMALLY SECURE LINK
19:55:06 <elliott> ti was changed to url-launcher
19:55:17 <Bike> "sensible-editor, sensible-pager and sensible-browser make sensible decisions on which editor, pager, and web browser to call, respectively."
19:55:22 <Fiora> Yeah, I remember the movie was kind of confusing just because of how much it was compressed from the manga
19:55:27 <Bike> (what the hell is a pager)
19:55:30 <Fiora> it was pretty though
19:55:33 <Bike> (are we talking like those beepy things)
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19:55:43 <Bike> it's a miracle!
19:55:48 <Fiora> Bike: I think it's a thing people put in their pocket protector
19:55:50 <elliott> literally months with broken links
19:55:52 <Bike> now you can click all the secure akira information you want
19:55:53 <olsner> Bike: a pager is more or less
19:56:09 <Bike> Fiora: not convinced pocket protectors exist tbh
19:56:18 <elliott> Bike you weren't there fort hat time i went like three to four months without number keys
19:56:38 <shachaf> remember those months i went without → and End keys
19:56:45 <shachaf> oh wait those months are still going on
19:57:36 <shachaf> the joke is that my keyboard is broken and it's Bike's fault
19:57:59 <Bike> Good joke, imo.
19:58:57 <Fiora> Bike: I think they have like, the same mythical status as slide rules?
19:59:21 <Bike> i've actually used a slide rule
20:00:10 <Fiora> the stuff of legends!
20:00:14 <Bike> they're actually pretty easy to use
20:00:35 <shachaf> Battery 0: Charging, 75%, 1484:00:00 until charged
20:00:51 <Phantom_Hoover> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Conflict:_Palestine
20:01:05 <Phantom_Hoover> "Global Conflicts: Palestine is a serious game. It was developed by Serious Games Interactive"
20:01:16 <Bike> Jerusalem facing challenges.
20:01:44 <Bike> "Conflict: Middle East Political Simulator" well i guess that about sums it up
20:02:05 <Phantom_Hoover> "Conflict: Middle East Political Simulator, often known as ConfMEPS"
20:02:25 <Bike> "One of the main ways to lose the game is for WMDs to be used, which often sets off a global nuclear holocaust. This can present a problem to players,"
20:02:57 <kmc> DEFCON is a fun game
20:03:14 * kmc has also used a slide rule
20:03:22 <kmc> just for addition and multiplication though
20:03:27 <kmc> addition is kind of obvious
20:03:27 <Fiora> gosh DEFCON was fun
20:03:31 <kmc> and multiplication is log addition :)
20:03:39 <Bike> " Generally, it is best to destabilize Iran into collapsing, since this permits Iraq to threaten some of the countries which share a border with Israel." yes. nailed it.
20:03:57 <kmc> i was good enough to beat the computer reliably, because the computer is dumb
20:04:00 <kmc> but i never played much online
20:04:08 <Fiora> I can imagine it being so much fun to play with friends
20:04:21 <Bike> "Lebanon, which borders Israel and Syria, is highly unstable and will collapse on its own accord if another country does not invade it first; in fact, Lebanon will collapse by itself even if the player is always trying to disrupt the insurgency and support the Government. " this is seriously darkly amusing
20:04:33 <kmc> we had a party that included a video of DEFCON gameplay on a huge projection screen
20:04:36 <Phantom_Hoover> you have to, like, micromanage every single one of your bombers, and split your entire fleet into 2-ship units
20:04:38 <kmc> cold war themed party
20:04:56 <Bike> that sounds pretty sad kmc
20:05:05 <Taneb> I was crap at DEFCON
20:05:13 <Bike> Napalm Sticks to Kids~
20:05:16 <Fiora> I don't know how bad I was but it was fun
20:05:22 <Bike> (that's the only cold war song i know)
20:05:23 <fizzie> Does Coldplay make cold war music?
20:05:24 <kmc> actually that was the party where the hazmat crew got called the next day
20:05:32 <Fiora> Bike: they could organize the party by decades. so like, in the first hour, every 10 minutes they have to vote someone out as a communist
20:05:34 <kmc> "Coldplay: The cherry on top of a shit sundae."
20:05:53 <Phantom_Hoover> i definitely wasn't good but i was competent at not being obviously bad
20:06:10 <Bike> Fiora: and then they all get high as hell and forget the theme?
20:06:16 <oerjan> <Taneb> About a couple of college students who accidentally make a FTL drive powered by American artificial cheddar <-- overarching premise: "this stuff has to be good for _something_"?
20:06:20 <Fiora> then in the next decade they have to vote who is the bourgeois and shame them in front of everyone
20:06:26 -!- kallisti has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
20:06:29 <Bike> There are a few typos in the game which can be distracting to the player, such as the announcement that a given country has been overrun by another country's "hoards" (its bank accounts?), rather than using the correct term, "hordes".
20:06:44 <Fiora> and decide on Four Olds from around the room to destroy
20:06:51 <Fiora> okay this is silly
20:07:17 <Taneb> oerjan, they put it in a particle collider for a joke, and then the next-door neighbour's cat ends up in Toronto or something
20:07:21 <Bike> later i show up in a ghillie suit and murder all the christians for being too leftist
20:08:28 <Bike> or just stand outside the party training assassins
20:10:11 <Taneb> oerjan, then the two college students, their girlfriend (they share one), and a KGB spy end up on a 747 in space or something
20:10:15 <Taneb> And save a few worlds
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20:22:40 <oerjan> i am not sure 747's are considered space-worthy?
20:23:11 <Fiora> maybe it's like Space Battleship Yamato?
20:24:10 <Taneb> oerjan, it was very silly
20:24:53 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, I think they just put a small particle collider and some cheese in it
20:26:14 <oerjan> wtf google is constantly crashing
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20:27:07 <oerjan> only the main page though
20:27:27 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, I think it was more a magic drive
20:28:02 <Phantom_Hoover> btw can we all just spend a minute admiring http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_salt-water_rocket
20:28:09 <Taneb> It was not at all hard sci-fi
20:29:29 <Fiora> Phantom_Hoover: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fission_fragment_rocket this is my favorite nuclear rocket design
20:29:54 <Fiora> it can get exhaust velocity up to a significant fraction of c
20:30:01 <elliott> https://www.lp.org/make-a-bitcoin-contribution
20:30:06 <elliott> libertarian party now accepting bitcoin donations
20:30:16 <elliott> By checking this box I acknowledge that contributions from corporations and foreign nationals are prohibited (Permanent legal residents of the U.S., i.e., "green card" holders, are not considered foreign nationals). I also acknowledge that this contribution is made from my own personal funds and not funds from a corporate or business entity.
20:30:30 <elliott> something tells me this isn't legally sound
20:30:31 <Fiora> oh wow O_O that one has crazy good specific impulse too
20:30:39 <Taneb> elliott, you're not a US citizen.
20:30:44 <Taneb> Hate to break it 2 u
20:30:53 <elliott> i like how the donation amount starts at $5k
20:31:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Fiora, it's basically project orion with one long, continuous explosion
20:31:14 <pikhq_> elliott: That's actually a legal requirement on campaign donations.
20:31:38 <pikhq_> elliott: Basically, without having a weirdo legal status you can't accept from corporations, and you can't accept from non-citizens.
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20:32:03 <Fiora> kmc: http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2013/04/11/as-big-investors-emerge-bitcoin-gets-ready-for-its-close-up/ oh my gosh it's the winklevoss twins
20:32:30 <zzo38> I rarely use any compression with DVI other than the built-in movement commands compression, although other can be used if necessary such as gz and so on
20:32:30 <lambdabot> zzo38: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
20:32:34 <lambdabot> kmc asked 2d 43m 57s ago: What kind of compression (if any) do you use on .dvi files?
20:32:34 <lambdabot> Bike said 1d 20h 22m 8s ago: friend of mine doesn't think TwoDucks can solve the halting problem (for UTMs) and would be interested in talking it over with you.
20:32:59 <elliott> pretty trivial to just donate money to them and put in a fake address
20:33:16 <Bike> "winklevoss"??
20:33:32 <Fiora> the guys who sued facebook for stealing their idea
20:34:05 <elliott> the identical twins from the fairy tale
20:34:08 <elliott> pretty sure they can't actually be real
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20:34:28 <Bike> «Olympic rowers. Nemeses of Mark Zuckerberg. Characters on “The Simpsons.” Now they can add a new label: bitcoin moguls.» this is pretty great
20:34:46 <Taneb> I'm at least 0 of those things
20:34:48 <Bike> «The Winklevii — as they are popularly known —»
20:35:10 <Bike> hey dutch tulips
20:35:15 <Bike> i should actually read that book sometime
20:35:20 <Phantom_Hoover> "They have parlayed that fortune into Winklevoss Capital. Their first two investments were in Hukkster, a start-up shopping Web site and SumZero, an online community for professional money managers."
20:35:42 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: does anyone invest in anything that isn't a website any more
20:35:53 <Bike> things that aren't websites? what
20:36:05 <Taneb> That sounds like my dad's mum's maiden name
20:36:11 <elliott> Bike: i know it's hard to believe they exist
20:36:27 <Taneb> I invested in an oil company
20:36:36 <Taneb> It hasn't yet gone bankrupt
20:37:57 <boily> time for a relevant quote:
20:37:59 <metasepia> I used to think that the brain was the most wonderful organ in
20:37:59 <metasepia> my body. Then I realized who was telling me this.
20:38:31 <Bike> ha, ha, cartesian dualism
20:40:18 <Fiora> "Oh, so that's why the value is crashing... people just wanted to get out once they saw the Winkelvii getting in." *pff*
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20:51:58 <oerjan> <shachaf> Oh, I can just popcnt %eax, %eax?
20:52:53 <oerjan> now i'm wondering if there's assembly that resembles brekekex koax koax
20:55:21 <shachaf> `learn Maybe a is Just a or Nothing
20:56:17 <elliott> Just Int isn't :: Maybe Int
20:56:36 <shachaf> elliott: Go fight with the "data" syntax people.
20:57:57 <boily> :t Just 5 :: Maybe Int
20:58:42 * oerjan laughs at today's darths & droids
21:01:18 <oerjan> :t return 5 `asTypeOf` Just undefined
21:01:39 <elliott> oerjan: do you know about ways to encode codata using inductive types
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21:02:25 * Phantom_Hoover dips into r/bitcoin, notes that they are arguing with someone pointing out that bitcoins are never going to hit $100,000
21:02:56 <oerjan> elliott: wrapping things dually in functions, i assume...
21:03:17 <oerjan> wait, you said "know". i guess not.
21:03:28 <elliott> well I am pretty sure there are multiple viable ways but Idon't know the details
21:03:37 <elliott> I assume someone has written a paper about it but I can't find one
21:03:43 <Fiora> oerjan: amazingly I don't think x86 actually has anything starting with K
21:04:12 <oerjan> Fiora: the k is not important here, i was inspired by %eax after all
21:05:25 -!- boily has quit (Quit: Poulet!).
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21:06:23 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1c51ck/i_think_this_subreddit_should_seriously_consider/c9d3ket
21:06:25 <oerjan> elliott: i would expect codata to be somehow representable as something a function that takes an inductive data type argument describing how to decompose it to a finite level
21:06:46 <oerjan> sort of dual to a fold
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21:08:27 <elliott> well... I am a bit unsure because when you have dependent types, it's no longer sufficient to describe data types as their fold
21:09:09 <oerjan> i do not usually think of dependent types, i was imagining something system F like here
21:18:07 -!- augur has joined.
21:22:09 <ion> Dog attacks TV for baseball http://youtu.be/L7QFFZJWAX8
21:25:35 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: ...
21:26:09 <Bike> this is quite a thread PH
21:26:21 <kmc> ion: ha, nice catch
21:26:29 <Bike> Estimate those probabilities, multiply them by each other. Is your answer zero? Nope, didn't think so.
21:27:10 <Bike> wow are there gold standard people here i'm seeing
21:27:12 <kmc> "Why would anyone record themselves playing triple play? Definitely planned... Therefore its NOT A NICE SAVE"
21:27:22 <kmc> woah, youtube commenter, you are really blowing the lid off this conspiracy
21:27:27 <kmc> do the zapruder film next
21:27:43 <Bike> "400 years ago Canada was a bunch of stupid trees. Now we re worth almost 1.8 trillion. Give that amount of time, and maybe." wow it's bullshit /and/ racist
21:28:12 <Bike> bitcoins are just like canada kmc
21:28:29 <Bike> "I think a better analogy is that Microsoft was started in a garage, and Facebook was started by random college kids in their dorm room. Oh and don't forget Apple who nearly died that one time.""Yeah, and none of those companies is anywhere close to being worth two trillion dollars." "neither of those companies is a currency."
21:29:03 <elliott> Bike: well canada is still a bunch of stupid trees.
21:29:21 <Bike> Just because a lot of people bought in early and get rich, that doesn't mean that they don't deserve to get RICHER. I feel like there is so much greed around Bitcoin now that it's going to fail just over the asshats that won't recognize the value.
21:30:03 <Bike> why would you even want a BTC to be worth $10000, that's not how you measure the strength of a currency
21:30:22 <kmc> you're winning if the numbers go up
21:30:24 <kmc> it's like mario
21:30:26 <elliott> well people don't care about the strength of BTC so much as making a lot of money off the BTC they have
21:30:33 <elliott> even if they pretend otherwise
21:30:49 <Phantom_Hoover> there was an article in the observer making that point
21:31:05 <elliott> well if the observer said it
21:31:06 <Phantom_Hoover> bitcoin is doomed to fail because it encourages speculators and hoarding, apparently
21:31:21 <elliott> sort of like other currencies you mean
21:31:22 <Bike> if it's doomed to fail it's because the people using it are dipshits
21:31:24 <kmc> yeah, deflation is built into the protocol
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21:31:46 <elliott> yes i do know how bitcoin works :P
21:31:53 <Fiora> it's kind of brilliant, though, isn't it? the creator of bitcoin was able to gather a vast army of supporters to push it just through greed
21:31:55 <Phantom_Hoover> if i have 200 in a sock it's just going to become worthless over time
21:32:00 <Fiora> because all the early adopters will have a ton to gain
21:32:09 <elliott> something about bitcoin being a microcosm of capitalism, not a conspiracy
21:32:17 <kmc> if you have 200,000 JPY in a sock then it almost doesn't become worthless except that your country's economy slowly melts
21:32:37 <kmc> elliott: the invisible hand is flipping us all off
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21:43:01 <kmc> on top of an actual Magic: the
21:43:48 <kmc> also doesn't tokyo have mountains
21:43:51 <elliott> did Phantom_Hoover miss kmc's joke
21:44:20 <kmc> monqy: why is your username 'help'
21:44:30 <kmc> or... "~help"
21:45:14 <elliott> monqy: secret i actually use oidentd
21:45:18 <elliott> bc its in the debian repos
21:45:35 <elliott> monqy: remember when your username was swell; those were some good times
21:45:41 <elliott> (it made me think your real name was swell)
21:45:45 <elliott> (like you were thomas swell or something)
21:45:58 <monqy> was i in here back when it was 'chap'?
21:46:07 <elliott> i dont remember that though
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21:47:30 <monqy> it may have been 'ciao' too at one point but im less sure about that
21:48:11 <kmc> also http://blog.cryptographyengineering.com/2013/04/zerocoin-making-bitcoin-anonymous.html is neat
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21:49:59 * Phantom_Hoover realises that it's actually kind of mad that there's a $20 spread in prices from the 4 non-mtgox exchanges on bitcoinity
21:50:19 <Fiora> kmc: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=173227.0
21:52:12 <pikhq_> Yeah, the single biggest failure of BTC is that it's inherently deflationary...
21:52:19 <pikhq_> Meaning that long-term it's simply not viable.
21:53:41 <pikhq_> But hey, people also support the gold standard.
21:53:48 <kmc> so as t→∞ everyone is just hoarding coins and not spending them... but is there some way to incentivize against that
21:53:50 <pikhq_> Which has the same problem really.
21:53:52 <kmc> other than modifying the protocol
21:54:07 <kmc> pikhq_: and a lot of the same people supporm both...
21:54:21 <Bike> 'consider linux or os x'
21:54:36 <Phantom_Hoover> what, exactly, was the problem with not making it deflationary
21:55:02 <pikhq_> If you really truly think Bitcoin is going to last long-term, it's in your best interest to just grab some and sit on it.
21:55:07 <pikhq_> And, like, retire on it.
21:55:23 <kmc> but if everyone does that and liquidity dries up
21:55:30 <kmc> then how do you actually spend your bitcoins on important goods
21:55:50 <pikhq_> Yay, liquidity crises.
21:55:56 <Fiora> I think maybe that's part of the reason why it's so volatile? or at least part of it, since, like, the number of bitcoins actually trading seems to be a tiny fraction of the total
21:56:14 <kmc> i think the deflationary thing is sufficiently far off that it's not influencing behaivor now
21:56:17 <kmc> but i could be wrong
21:56:31 <Fiora> not the deflationary bit but rather just "people are sitting on it"
21:56:36 <pikhq_> kmc: It's actually been deflationary since day one.
21:56:36 <Phantom_Hoover> why did it have to be deflationary! i assume there was some reason for it
21:56:41 <kmc> pikhq_: yeah, i know
21:56:48 <pikhq_> As more bitcoins are mined, mining gets harder.
21:56:59 <kmc> i just think people aren't thinking long term yet
21:57:00 <pikhq_> I suspect people aren't *acting* on this, but nevertheless.
21:57:06 <Fiora> maybe it's easier to convince people of the value of something if you can guarantee it will be in limited supply (?)
21:57:07 <kmc> that the market is mostly driven by short term bubbly speculation
21:57:17 <kmc> Fiora: yeah
21:57:27 <kmc> deflation gives you a currency which is worth a lot of dollars which looks good in a way
21:57:31 <Fiora> it definitely did a good job at recruiting the libertarians -_-
21:57:33 <kmc> but it hurts your economy
21:58:15 <kmc> people keep telling me that the Right Thing is nominal GDP growth targets
21:58:25 <Fiora> I remember hearing that 'satoshi' had mined, like, 500k bitcoins or something
21:58:28 <kmc> i don't really know
21:58:30 <Fiora> I wonder where those are now...
21:59:27 <kmc> it's so weird that bitcoin was invented by some anonymous japanese person
21:59:32 <kmc> it makes the whole thing like 200% more cyberpunk
21:59:40 <Fiora> I'm not even sure people are certain it was one person
21:59:55 <kmc> also how did i only now notice that 'bitcoin' is one letter off from 'bitchin'
22:00:39 <Fiora> (bitcoin is actually a stand alone complex!)
22:00:44 <elliott> finally a way to trade virtual chins anonymously
22:00:56 <elliott> i am going to saw off my own chin and trade it in asap
22:01:47 <elliott> kmc: i don't think there's any reason to believe it was actually invented by a japanese person
22:02:30 <Bike> some kind of..... weeaboo cypherpunk
22:02:34 <elliott> like it might just be oen of the later developers using another name for the initial development
22:02:48 <Bike> if you want a japanese thing there's Perfect Dark
22:03:02 <Bike> version 1.02 was called "standalone complex"
22:03:07 <elliott> but i'm sure the fact that the inventor is unknown appeals to the kind of ancap anonymity type impulse
22:03:08 <Bike> maximum cyberpunk go
22:03:10 <Fiora> I think I remember reading that the first few 100k bitcoins still haven't been sent anywhere...
22:03:20 <Bike> the nazi gold of reddit
22:03:22 <elliott> so that paper Bike or whoever linked
22:03:26 <Fiora> so like, whoever invented it is a multi-millionaire
22:03:27 <elliott> does anyone know what that november 2010 transaction actually was
22:03:36 <Bike> i'm telling you man it's the pizas
22:03:47 <elliott> bitcoin, founded upon pizza
22:04:01 <Fiora> (though, it'd be wonderfully schadenfreudetastic if it turned out satoshi lost hir wallet)
22:06:25 <kmc> Bike: hahaha
22:06:32 <kmc> the nazi gold of reddit
22:11:49 <kmc> if bitcoin does survive, you know that people in 20 years will be looking through every discarded laptop for hidden treasure
22:14:10 <kmc> i should get a bunch of blank CDs and write "BITCOINS" on them and hide them in various locations
22:14:25 <Fiora> maybe put like, 0.000001 of a bitcoin on each one?
22:14:43 <kmc> or 0.000000
22:15:14 <Phantom_Hoover> i don't think you can fit a paedophile on a disc pikhq
22:15:17 <kmc> pikhq_: nah it should have enough apparent structure that people will go mad trying to decrypt it
22:15:23 <kmc> paedocoins
22:15:42 <Fiora> oh gosh, this reminds me of um... Molyneux's cube thing
22:15:52 <Fiora> I'm imagining that, except like, with a promise of a bitcoin wallet in the center
22:16:03 <Fiora> and a swarm of redditors trying to get to the center of the cube
22:16:09 <elliott> i honestly thought curiosity was a molydeux thing first
22:16:17 <elliott> because i first heard of it from molydeux tweets referencing it
22:16:21 <Bike> wasn't it what inspired molydeux
22:16:23 <Fiora> me too. he's practically self-parody XD
22:16:32 <Phantom_Hoover> is it bad when i heard of it i thought it sounded kind of cool
22:16:34 <elliott> molyneux saw molydeux and was inspired to go and quit his job
22:16:39 <kmc> http://i0.wp.com/buttcoin.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/mtgoxmagiccard.jpg?resize=223%2C310
22:16:52 <elliott> art imitates life imitates art
22:17:06 <monqy> have they figured out curiosity yet
22:17:11 <Bike> so is it true that mt gox is a repurposed mtg site
22:17:48 <kmc> magic the gathering online xchange
22:18:12 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mt.Gox
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22:19:44 <Bike> oh hey they stopped trading yesterday
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22:23:06 <FreeFull> Are there any real-world codebases that use STM?
22:26:12 -!- ion has joined.
22:26:49 <oerjan> nope, they're all in fake worlds
22:27:44 <FreeFull> I mean, code that actually serves a purpose that's not demonstrating STMs
22:28:29 <elliott> apparently the founder of mtgox also made edonkey
22:28:53 <elliott> and is also the guy who made Ripple
22:29:55 <oerjan> `addquote <Taneb> I've also pretended to be Queen Elizabeth the first, but that was a desperate plea for attention
22:30:00 <HackEgo> 1020) <Taneb> I've also pretended to be Queen Elizabeth the first, but that was a desperate plea for attention
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22:31:57 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ripple_monetary_system
22:32:00 <elliott> it was cool before bitcoin!
22:32:10 <elliott> and is also more interesting
22:32:54 <Bike> oh wow i've actually heard of htis
22:33:11 <Bike> "This structure means that it is simple to route payments to and from any participants, but is inherently full of single points of failure, which may also be characterized as single points of control."
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22:50:12 <elliott> kmc: what pdf reader do you use
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22:58:54 <kmc> are u gonna write sploit
22:59:11 <kmc> evince mainly, sometimes xpdf, sometimes okular
22:59:14 <kmc> sometimes google preview thingy
23:03:15 <ion> I start with pdf.js because my browser renders PDF files using it internally, then find that it’s frustratingly slow and/or renders the file horribly <http://imm.io/12t9N> and click the button to open it in evince.
23:04:06 <ion> I like xpdf’s magnifier tool.
23:04:15 <ion> elliott: Firefox
23:05:40 <kmc> xpdf works even when evince is broken due to gnome bullshit
23:05:48 <kmc> also consumes less ram or something
23:06:02 <ion> I don’t remember evince being broken ever. But sure, xpdf uses less resources.
23:06:10 <Jafet> Mozilla doesn't want Adobe to cash in on the lucrative user frustration market
23:06:51 <ion> Well, SWF already uses JS for scripting. :-P
23:07:18 <pikhq_> I'm fond of mupdf personally.
23:08:18 <Fiora> the firefox reader has been kind of frustrating for me, it works some of the time but on some files the table of contents window just doesn't work, like, I can't click on an entry to jump to it
23:08:22 <Fiora> which is really painful for 1500-page pdfs
23:08:39 <pikhq_> Yeah, pdf.js seems rather silly.
23:08:49 <elliott> i avoid reading 1500 page pdfs
23:08:55 <pikhq_> PDF readers have issues being slow *without* running on a rather strange VM.
23:09:00 <elliott> maintains my inner balance
23:09:13 <Fiora> I don't have much choice if I need to read intel manuals :<
23:09:26 <elliott> ah, you have found another way in which i maintain my inner balance.
23:09:36 <pikhq_> mupdf is pretty nice though. UI's kinda meh, but it's freaking awesome at rendering efficiently.
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23:10:17 <elliott> i kind of want some kind of pdf manager
23:10:25 <elliott> so i don't have to keep remembering what 58324.pdf is or whatever
23:10:32 <elliott> i could give them proper names
23:10:40 <Bike> i give them proper names every few weeks
23:10:56 <ion> elliott: I use Calibre.
23:10:56 <Bike> when I notice Downloads/48191_1891final.pdf\ (3) and decide enough is enough
23:10:56 <kmc> mendeley was recently acquired by satan or something
23:11:04 <elliott> Bike: is this some kind of web based thing
23:11:15 <Bike> elliott: no Downloads is my folder for downloads.
23:11:20 <Bike> kmc: elsevier?
23:11:34 <Bike> Oh. Uh, maybe?
23:11:40 <elliott> this looks sort of like something i have no hope of using on linux
23:11:43 <ion> I also use Calibre to convert and send files to my Kindle. But i used it just to maintain a library of various ebooks, papers etc. before i had a Kindle.
23:11:56 <Bike> elliott: I'm pretty sure enough academics use it for them to support it...
23:12:00 <elliott> oh it has a linux version hmm
23:12:25 <Bike> Well, now that it's Elsevier i'll need a goat to sacrifice to soil myself enough to use it, though
23:12:27 <elliott> i would prefer something open source because i am a dweeb, but it certainly looks featureful
23:12:36 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_reference_management_software ah wikipedia
23:12:38 <ion> It’s open-source.
23:12:59 <elliott> calibre... might work for my needs
23:13:02 <elliott> but there was that one security bug report
23:13:08 <elliott> that makes it impossible for me to take the developer seriously
23:13:34 <ion> What bug report was that?
23:13:48 <elliott> https://bugs.launchpad.net/calibre/+bug/885027
23:14:01 <elliott> it's no longer relevant and didn't matter to anyone who used major distro packages for it, but
23:14:08 <elliott> the dev's attitude is really awful and eyeroll-y
23:14:13 <elliott> so i am biased against the program now
23:14:40 <Bike> "I dont see how 1-3 are security vulnerabilities." wow i forgot how terrible this was
23:14:41 <ion> Hah, awesome
23:15:11 <elliott> Fix committed for the latest exploit. Feel free to re-open if you find another
23:15:14 <elliott> exploit PoC 2.1 Edit (2.9 KiB, text/x-sh)
23:15:23 <Bike> "4 is a vulnerability only if
23:15:26 <Bike> mount itself is vulnerable to command line injection." hahaha
23:15:30 <elliott> i'm sure if you keep patching it over it'll be fine!
23:15:36 <Bike> god i totally forgot about this it's amazing
23:17:10 <elliott> how is that elsevier boycott going
23:18:19 <Bike> well that one legislative thing got defeated a billion years ago so fine as far as i'm concerned
23:19:13 <Fiora> wooow. that bug report thread.
23:19:27 <Bike> "Until this comment, I was on the side of fixing with the exploits. Now, as far as I am concerned you should go play frisbee on a freeway."
23:19:31 <Fiora> gosh, that guy is almost reminiscent of drepper.
23:19:39 <Bike> things get heated in the high-stakes world of launchpad
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23:20:31 <elliott> hell is trying to find the superscript for a footnote you missed
23:20:46 <Bike> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iran/9985757/Iranian-scientist-claims-to-have-invented-time-machine.html anyway
23:20:54 <elliott> WHAT ARE YOU COMMENTING ON REVEAL YOUR SECRETS TO ME
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23:23:29 <Bike> Razeghi said his latest project has been criticised by friends and relatives for "trying to play God" with ordinary lives and history.
23:24:33 * ion laughed at “Ah, realpath(). status fixreleased”
23:26:23 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
23:27:43 <Sgeo> Oh, so it is safe for me to use Calibre on Linux?
23:27:51 <Sgeo> I may have been avoiding it somewhat
23:28:17 <Bike> probably nobody's going to exploit it, the dev is just kind of a fool i guess
23:28:30 <elliott> the dev gave in eventually
23:28:39 <elliott> of course that's only the one bug we know about
23:28:57 <Bike> Well it's the only binary that's suid, isn't it?
23:29:12 <Bike> Apparently Fedora and probably other distros just remove that binary anyway.
23:30:19 <elliott> you can have bad exploits without root
23:30:27 <elliott> like your browser doesn't run as root either
23:33:24 <kmc> elliott: sure an attacker can get my gmail password and all of my other passwords and basically take over my life and all my money, but that's no use if they can't send raw IP packets or set the system clock
23:37:43 <ion> Oh man, another Calibre developer, Charles Haley (cbhaley), decided to join the discussion with a constructive message.
23:42:48 <elliott> kmc: i should chown more things root
23:43:30 <kmc> alias yolo=sudo
23:45:07 <elliott> is there a decent email client yet
23:45:13 <elliott> like can i stop using gmail
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23:57:00 <ion> “Every time I was convinced of the existence of an actual exploit, I have attempted to fix it. Maybe my fixes were naive, but dont forget that it's a lot easier to find holes in something, than to build somethig without holes in the first place.”