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01:25:10 <btiffin> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Cbrain#When_is_Easter.3F The computus in cbrain
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01:27:42 <btiffin> Yep, but it can fall back to COBOL accept if the call to readline fails
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01:29:14 <btiffin> Part of the cbrain game is that it's built for COBOL, and I wanted a relatively sane RE loop
01:31:40 <btiffin> :-) Went overboard on the CB slang too Bike, put 1094 in a cell and request help and you get a frogSort.
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01:40:51 <shachaf> Hard terminals? Those are ones that aren't monoids?
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01:43:57 <kmc> sequences of ECMA-48 commands should form a monoid, yes
01:44:11 <kmc> or rather a whole bunch of them
01:44:23 <Phantom_Hoover> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperspace_(science_fiction)#Babylon_5
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01:45:24 <kmc> most obviously the free monoid on characters, but also various monoids with stronger equivalence relations that understand that e.g. two moves in a row can be coalesced
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01:45:53 <kmc> is there a term for a monoid that's built from a free monoid + a normalization operator that you apply to words after concatenating them?
01:46:19 <shachaf> Can't you build any monoid that way?
01:46:42 <kmc> monoid presentation?
01:47:01 <oerjan> there might not be a canonical normal form that is computable
01:47:30 <oerjan> if the word problem isn't decidable
01:48:50 <oerjan> if you don't care about computability, you can of course just choose the shortest representation in lexicographic order
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01:51:12 <Bike_> Just not as catchy as the original.
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01:51:23 <shachaf> mnoqy: are free groups "cooler than" free monoids
01:51:30 <shachaf> this question goes for the rest of you
01:51:38 <mnoqy> depends on what you mean by cooler
01:52:02 <shachaf> so it depends on what YOU MEAN BY "cooler"??
01:52:09 <mnoqy> ???????????????????????????????????
01:52:19 <mnoqy> free monoids come up more in day to day life
01:52:29 <shachaf> p. sure that makes them "less cool"
01:52:29 <Sgeo> I ate surloin steak
01:52:32 <mnoqy> and are easier to construct
01:52:55 <mnoqy> easier/less finicky
01:53:25 <mnoqy> the ~usual~ construction of free groups is pretty finicky but i hear there's a nice way to do it with topology
01:53:54 <shachaf> nb. i know almost nothing bout topology
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01:55:12 <mnoqy> and of course ther'es the category-theoretical way where you use the whatever adjoint functor theorem to construct a left adjoint to the forgetful functor. i forget the process in there but Mac Lane ~claims~ it's nicer than the usual construction
01:55:34 <shachaf> mnoqy: wait there's a process ?????
01:55:40 <shachaf> what's the whatever adjoint functor theorem
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01:57:58 <mnoqy> (The Freyd Adjoint Functor Theorem). Given a small-complete category A with small hom-sets, a functor G : A -> X has a left adjoint if and only if it preserves all small limits and satisfies the following Solution Set Condition: For each object x \in X there is a small set I and an I-indexed family of arrows f_i : x -> G a_i such that every arrow h : x -> G a can be written as a composite h = G t
01:58:04 <mnoqy> \circ f_i for some index i and some t : a_i -> a
01:59:29 <mnoqy> and then it goes on to construct the free group from the forgetful functor U : Grp -> Set
02:00:29 <mnoqy> my eyes darted between the forgetful functor and its adjoint
02:00:57 <shachaf> mnoqy: are you forgetful because of adjoint
02:01:07 <shachaf> i didn't know you were doing higher category theory
02:01:31 <mnoqy> "This left adjoint F : Set -> Grp assigns to each set X the free group F X generated by X, so our theorem has produced this free group without entering into the usual (rather fussy) explicit construction of the elements of F X as equivalence classes of words in letters of X."
02:02:27 <mnoqy> im on the monads&algebras chapter right now it's between that chapter and adjoints and the chapter on monoids
02:02:37 <shachaf> you know how in haskell you can say newtype FreeGroup a = FreeGroup { runFreeGroup :: Group g => (a -> g) -> g }
02:03:13 <mnoqy> i'll be right back and then i can figure out if i know that
02:03:44 <shachaf> anyway let me look at that theorem
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02:15:24 <FreeFull> For some reason Idris seems more understandable to me than Agda
02:15:43 <mnoqy> ok i think i understand that definition of free groups in haskell
02:17:21 <mnoqy> i dont get why you used it
02:17:35 <mnoqy> the ???? was also to FreeFull as well
02:18:23 <shachaf> what about this: newtype Free k a = Free { runFree :: forall r. k a => (a -> r) -> r }
02:19:03 <mnoqy> by k a do you mean k r?
02:19:46 <lambdabot> http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/ghc/newticket?type=bug
02:19:50 <lambdabot> http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/ghc/newticket?type=bug
02:19:57 <zzo38> Yes I have seen that kind of Free
02:20:12 <shachaf> mnoqy: what about this: Free (Algebra f)
02:20:28 <Bicyclid1ne> is there a math thing called "group" other than the usual one because i swear i will punch everybody
02:20:43 <shachaf> Bicyclid1ne: there's a whole group of things called "group"
02:20:43 <mnoqy> Bicyclid1ne: nah this is the same group
02:21:23 <FreeFull> Bicyclid1ne: Are you going to throw a magma at someone?
02:22:37 <mnoqy> shachaf: and that definition of "Free" looks right..well...about as right you can reasonably get with haskell
02:23:13 <shachaf> mnoqy: are you hinting "that type classes are bad" "and that independent types are bad for getting things right.."
02:23:23 <shachaf> mostly the latter maybe i don''t know....
02:23:27 <oerjan> FreeFull: don't you mean groupoid? * runs away
02:23:46 <shachaf> mnoqy: so Free (Algebra f) gives you a free monad??
02:24:01 <oerjan> (spot why this is relevant)
02:24:38 <zzo38> Yes, although I don't like using Algebra as a class, but yes it can work
02:25:02 <zzo38> CodensityAsk is similar but without class.
02:25:15 <zzo38> Both kinds can be meaningful though.
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02:25:36 <shachaf> Now I understand what CodensityAsk is.
02:25:37 <FreeFull> Groupoid takes two arguments and is a data constructor. g doesn't seem to take any arguments
02:25:52 <FreeFull> And Group seems to be a typeclass
02:26:38 <mnoqy> shachaf: no i'm hinting at you're really working in 2 different categories and sometimes your morphisms are weird (group homomorphims??? it could happen).. i'm also hinting at there's the thing where for free objects you have a (natural)bijection of hom-sets not just an 1-way assignment
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02:26:51 <shachaf> mnoqy: oh there's that too
02:27:03 <oerjan> FreeFull: you didn't get the reference sorry
02:27:04 <shachaf> because you get the (-> r) (-> r) pattern from the adjunction??
02:27:25 <FreeFull> oerjan: xoid is something x-like and that's all I get
02:27:29 <mnoqy> well you understand how free objects work right?
02:27:35 <oerjan> (the point is that groupoid _is_ a math thing other than the usual groupoid)
02:27:56 <shachaf> wait what's a free object in terms of free functors
02:28:11 <FreeFull> So a monoid is something like a mon, so for example pikachu is a monoid
02:28:18 <oerjan> Bicyclid1ne: it can mean either magma, or category with all morphisms invertible
02:28:29 <mnoqy> shachaf: free object is any image of a free functor's object function
02:28:37 <coppro> `addquote <FreeFull> So a monoid is something like a mon, so for example pikachu is a monoid
02:28:41 <HackEgo> 1025) <FreeFull> So a monoid is something like a mon, so for example pikachu is a monoid
02:29:26 <shachaf> `run quote | head -n4; quote | tail -n1
02:29:28 <HackEgo> 439) <monqy> beautiful summer / fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck / fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck \ 870) <kmc> it's kind of the multiocular O of countries, if you will
02:29:40 <HackEgo> 470) <itidus20> combinatronics seems to be the mathematics chasing buddha's tail <itidus20> yeah.. he was a smart monkey that buddha
02:30:29 <FreeFull> Now to show how a pikachu is a monoid
02:30:49 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: quitidus21: not found
02:30:58 <mnoqy> shachaf: so the adjunction looks a bit like hom(F a, b) \cong hom(a, U b)... i.e. for any [group] b can extend any function from a to the underlying set of b to a ~unique~ morphism from the free group to b
02:30:59 <shachaf> oh no is that how they made itidus21 leave the channel
02:31:26 <mnoqy> shachaf: if you're familiar with linear algebra, this is a lot like how linear transformations are defined by their action on the basis. this is because all vector spaces are free.
02:31:59 <shachaf> mnoqy: and with monoids that's like foldMap
02:32:08 <oerjan> buddha was known to outsmart monkeys
02:32:34 <lambdabot> (Foldable t, Monoid m) => (a -> m) -> t a -> m
02:32:38 <shachaf> you can turn a a function (a -> b) to the monoid homomorphism ([a] -> b)
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02:33:04 <shachaf> which in haskell we just represent as a function anyway
02:33:59 <mnoqy> so for that freegroup defn what you're doing is just representing the free group on a by this map from a->Uq functions to Fa->q morphismssms
02:34:24 <shachaf> right, same as the free monoid
02:34:26 <mnoqy> and this generalizes to any category with free objects not just Grp
02:34:29 <shachaf> representing a list by its foldMap function
02:34:58 <shachaf> (which by the way lets you express more than lists. but that's because haskell people are naughty)
02:35:20 <shachaf> zzo38: Maybe you should call CodensityAsk something with a "free" in its name.
02:35:33 <mnoqy> well that's just because of that thing where haskell functions aren't monoid homomorphisms and you're not required to bijection
02:35:57 <shachaf> no i mean the whole "infinite folds thing"
02:36:01 <shachaf> (or do you mean that too?????)
02:37:12 <mnoqy> FreeFull: default instances
02:37:13 <lambdabot> No instance for (Data.Monoid.Monoid GHC.Types.Int)
02:37:40 <FreeFull> I guess for [] it tries mempty
02:38:01 <shachaf> mnoqy: well it has to try something
02:38:20 <mnoqy> shachaf: yes but i mean it's less about trying mempty and more about trying () as its default instance for Monoid
02:38:31 <FreeFull> > foldMap id ([] :: [Sum Int])
02:38:43 <shachaf> if that didn't work it would try mappend mempty mempty
02:38:52 <shachaf> don't you know how computers work
02:38:52 <FreeFull> () is a good default for mempty
02:39:07 <shachaf> as FreeFull says () is a good default for mempty
02:39:20 <shachaf> class Monoid m where mempty :: m; mempty = (); mappend :: m -> m -> m
02:39:25 <FreeFull> () is in general a good default, except when it's not and monomorphism restriction is fucking with you
02:43:29 <shachaf> mnoqy: is your nick mnoqy 'because a message was sent to monqy'
02:44:11 <FreeFull> () tells you nothing whatsoever other than "Yup. There's a () here. It's not a bottom."
02:44:25 <shachaf> that's a lot of telling. . . .
02:45:03 <FreeFull> It's the minimum amount of telling without having just a bottom (Not to be confused with Just bottom)
02:45:40 <Bicyclid1ne> I think that's debateable, I mean, what if you knew it was an Integer? That narrows it down but there's still infinite objects it could be.
02:46:01 <FreeFull> The Eq and Ord instances for () aren't lazy
02:46:58 <FreeFull> Bicyclid1ne: "Yup. There is an Integer here. It has this and that value. It's not a bottom"
02:47:45 <mnoqy> shachaf: not that i know of...
02:47:56 <FreeFull> > take 4 . show $ [1,2,3,undefined]
02:48:10 <Jafet> There should be a bottom bit, which is filled in by expressions that would be bottom.
02:48:30 <Bicyclid1ne> because the evil bit joke just wasn't dorky enough
02:48:49 <FreeFull> Jafet: Well, if you actually have the Integer, then you know it's not a bottom
02:48:58 <FreeFull> And if you have a bottom, you don't know it's not a bottom
02:49:06 <shachaf> Bicyclid1ne: hey remember slashdot on "evil bit day"
02:49:13 <FreeFull> I mean, you don't know it's a bottom
02:49:25 <Bicyclid1ne> shachaf: why the fuck would i remember slashdot anything
02:49:52 <mnoqy> some bottoms are nicer than others
02:50:38 <mnoqy> divergence has that fun property where something something halting problem good luck telling if it's a bottom or just taking a long time to evaluate
02:50:57 <mnoqy> but why would you care
02:51:04 <shachaf> oh man i love that property
02:51:28 <FreeFull> I mean, you can tell something is an error
02:51:58 <mnoqy> is there a finnish crissis
02:52:02 <Jafet> Ok, reserving one bit for bottom is a waste, since in any sensible program you shouldn't get bottoms. So for Integer it should be like variable length to make it less important than actual integers, like 111...
02:52:42 <shachaf> mnoqy: they switched to dst?? :'(
02:52:59 <mnoqy> alt. serves em right. gosh ive been in dst for (weeks???)
02:53:03 <shachaf> Sat Apr 13 05:51:17 EEST 2013 Europe/Helsinki
02:53:03 <shachaf> Fri Apr 12 22:51:17 EDT 2013 America/New_York
02:53:16 <FreeFull> Jafet: What about () and other equivalent types?
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02:53:41 <FreeFull> Those don't even exist at runtime AFAIK, at least not with GHC-compiled code
02:54:51 <shachaf> ion: plz rename your time zone to something with three characters
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03:03:13 <Fiora> relaxing at home because it's a friday and yay
03:03:28 <kmc> FreeFull: () exists at runtime
03:03:31 <pikhq_> Playing video games cause yaaay.
03:04:30 <kmc> the value is represented by a pointer to a heap object, like any other value whose type has kind *
03:04:50 <kmc> except that since there's only one value () in the world, that object is allocated statically
03:05:00 <kmc> same for True and False and Nothing and other nullary type constructors
03:05:24 <Bike> Surely optimization must elide it being represented in some cases.
03:05:56 <kmc> FreeFull: there are types in GHC that have no runtime representation (such as State# t) but they don't have kind * and can't be used polymorphically
03:06:11 <Fiora> kmc: so that means that the compiler can do things like "if object == ()" by doing a pointer comparison?
03:06:32 <kmc> yep, but don't know if it does
03:06:42 <shachaf> In practice it'll probably check a tag bit in that case.
03:06:53 <kmc> right, yeah, it can't really do that
03:07:00 <kmc> because one side of the == might be an unevaluated thunk
03:07:02 <Bike> amazing how tagged the STG seems to be
03:07:04 <shachaf> If I give you a () it could be an unev -- that.
03:07:08 <kmc> it would have to perfrom some arbitrary computation first
03:07:18 <kmc> Bike: it's tagged in a different sense from the original "tagless"
03:07:24 <Fiora> but, like, wouldn't the pointer comparison still fail?
03:07:34 <Bike> Fiora: but it wouldn't succeed for real ()s.
03:07:46 <Fiora> so real ()s haven't be evaluated to static ()s
03:07:47 <kmc> true, you could have a fast check and then a slow check if they aren't equal
03:07:52 <Bike> Since haskell is nonstrict.
03:07:57 <kmc> i'm not sure that (==) on () is strict, anyway...
03:08:02 <shachaf> kmc: But it's even faster to just check the tag bit.
03:08:04 <kmc> > (undefined :: ()) == ()
03:08:06 <shachaf> Wait, which == are we talking about here?
03:08:08 <kmc> shachaf: yes, if the tag bit is there
03:08:14 <kmc> the one in Eq i assumed?
03:08:28 <shachaf> I didn't even read the question properly.
03:08:52 <shachaf> kmc: So you're talking about the case where you have a pointer to the static () object, but it's not tagged?
03:12:03 <shachaf> GHC optimizes "data Result = Yes | No; foo x | x == () = Yes | otherwise = No" to "foo = \x -> case x of _ { () -> Yes }"
03:14:14 <Bike> How do you see what it optimizes to?
03:14:36 <shachaf> Lots and lots of wishful thinking.
03:14:45 <Bike> Ah, the usual.
03:15:49 <shachaf> Anyway that means that it checks the tags on its argument and then either "returns" Yes directy or evaluates the thunk and "then" "returns" Yes.
03:17:55 <FreeFull> If not for those darn bottoms, it wouldn't make a difference =P
03:22:13 <coppro> why isn't it just "foo = const True"?
03:22:30 <shachaf> Because (undefined == ()) isn't True
03:23:11 <zzo38> But it can't be false either, if it is not defined.
03:23:46 <shachaf> halting problem more like "computers are stupid and i hate them problem"
03:23:53 <shachaf> coppro: Yep, that's what that foo code means.
03:24:32 <Sgeo> Fun fact: You can't do case null in Java
03:24:42 <Sgeo> Only way to catch that case is default
03:24:46 <Bike> Is case null a sex position?
03:25:04 <shachaf> fun fact: why is Sgeo saying things
03:25:28 <shachaf> i don't understand the things he's saying : :
03:25:41 <Sgeo> Because I'm starting to see the subtle good parts in Java and the subtle bad parts in Java, rather than just the obvious bad parts in Java
03:26:04 <GreaseMonkey> the obvious good things about java is that you can get some results
03:26:47 <Sgeo> How about package naming convention?
03:27:39 <Sgeo> As long as no alternate DNS root starts becoming very popular, Java package names will be unique
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03:28:47 <shachaf> mnoqy: how much would you pay for a hi tld
03:28:55 <shachaf> the possibilities are endless
03:30:03 <Sgeo> Whatever bitcoin's possibilties and failings, I think something along the lines of namecoin is possibly a good idea
03:30:07 <quintopia> you could get .hi.us already if hawaii likes you enough
03:45:41 <Bike> Are there any esolangs based on the immune system?
03:48:56 <Fiora> Bike: hmm. so like. you'd have some super simple esolang like a BF-like thing, except the purpose of the langage is to print characters in that lanugage ... and maybe like, the "execution" of your code is a systematic search for an input program that generates your code
03:49:00 <Fiora> and that input program is the output of your code?
03:49:17 <Fiora> (vaguely similar to the immune system "massive exhaustive search for a thing that binds to the pathogen" thing)
03:49:23 <Bike> that sounds almost too direct
03:49:57 <Bike> I found out a guy who got a Nobel for immunology work had some developmental brain theories so now i'm thinking about things.
03:50:20 <Bike> Unfortunately the immune system is really fucking complicated and more importantly I don't understand it.
03:51:29 <Bike> The font the Nobel people use for their PDFs is terrible. Somebody should make the stop.
03:52:22 <Bike> "Though both sciences still face exasperating problems, this lecture attempts to establish an analogy between linguistics and immunology, between the descriptions of language and of the immune system."
03:52:42 <shachaf> linguists more like evil people with no souls
03:52:59 <Bike> apparently the term "immune response" is actually taken from linguistics.
03:53:15 <shachaf> does that mean "it was in a language"
03:53:35 <Bike> I'm guessing stimulus/response terminology.
03:53:56 <Fiora> input: bf joust program
03:54:01 <Fiora> output: bf joust program that always beats it
03:54:19 <Bike> That's probably uncomputable.
03:54:36 <Bike> well, i know shit about bfjoust.
03:54:52 <Bike> Do you have something you'd like to share with the class?
03:55:31 <shachaf> THAT DES NOT COMPUTE -- Lost in Space robot, on linguists
03:56:44 <Bike> "Let me draw attention to the fact that this number of lymphocytes in the immune system is at least one order of magnitude larger than the number of neurons in the nervous system." neuroscience more like pointlessology
03:58:56 <Fiora> I guess you could say it's so big
03:58:58 <Fiora> that it makes you nervous?
03:59:21 * Bike makes gesture of mediocrity
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05:48:20 <coppro> elliott: have you idris
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06:53:02 <HackEgo> shachaf sprø som selleri and cosplays Nepeta Leijon on weekends.
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07:27:38 <fizzie> Nrrrr, I've been mentioned during the night.
07:28:21 <fizzie> Oh, right, EET -> EEST.
07:28:29 <shachaf> I was just complaining about your time zone.
07:28:35 <shachaf> Very irritating. Can you get it renamed?
07:28:41 <fizzie> Yes, that's very understandable.
07:29:03 <fizzie> I think you need to complain to the head guy of Eastern Europe. president@eastern.eu?
07:29:46 <shachaf> I thought they had a king.
07:30:27 <fizzie> Maybe they've got both.
07:30:59 <shachaf> What does the king of Finland think about that, hmm?
07:31:52 <fizzie> You might Cc: emperor@central.eu too, because CET changed to the equally stupid CEST; as well as tyrant@western.eu for WET -> WEST. (You could write a postscript about WET and WEST being innately silly too.)
07:32:37 <fizzie> ("What's your time zone?" "It's wet.")
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12:03:59 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
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13:16:24 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: attn. http://esolangs.org/wiki/Revolution_9
13:16:40 <elliott> coppro: i have used idris briefly
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13:37:15 <Jafet> You just need to come up with a language more trivial than brainfuck
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13:44:05 <Jafet> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuous-repayment_mortgage
13:45:17 <Jafet> “Gold pour – an illustration of literal cash "flow".”
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14:04:54 <Vorpal> <Jafet> “Gold pour – an illustration of literal cash "flow".” <-- what a terrible pun
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14:28:21 <Jafet> Don't do that, they make a snickering sound.
14:30:17 <hagb4rd> http://www.adamatomic.com/canabalt/mega/
14:30:26 <hagb4rd> THAT's a cool game..so classy!
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14:34:59 <Vorpal> ThatOtherPerson, I only attacks Jabberwocks
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14:42:28 * impomatic prints off a table of odd and even numbers for use in the office...
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15:01:49 <mroman_> because it's too hard to check if a number is even
15:01:55 <mroman_> unless it is given in binary
15:02:04 <mroman_> it which case it's still pretty hard but much easier.
15:03:40 <kmc> i had a dream just now where i was in a gymnasium and they had fire alarm pull stations but they also had a similarly shaped "call/cc alarm" which I think you were supposed to pull if you found a way to write call/cc (because it was expected that people in this gymnasium would be doing a lot of programming in total dependently-typed languages)
15:05:57 <mroman_> on a computer I usually just do if((~(x & (INT_MAX >> 31))+1)==0) printf("it's even")
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15:07:27 <mroman_> that or ((~(a & (INT_MAX >> 31))+1)*-1+1)%2
15:07:51 <elliott> `addquote <kmc> i had a dream just now where i was in a gymnasium and they had fire alarm pull stations but they also had a similarly shaped "call/cc alarm" which I think you were supposed to pull if you found a way to write call/cc (because it was expected that people in this gymnasium would be doing a lot of programming in total dependently-typed languages)
15:07:55 <HackEgo> 1026) <kmc> i had a dream just now where i was in a gymnasium and they had fire alarm pull stations but they also had a similarly shaped "call/cc alarm" which I think you were supposed to pull if you found a way to write call/cc (because it was expected that people in this gymnasium would be doing a lot of programming in total dependently-typed lan
15:11:10 <zzo38> That is the kind of things in a dream that it might be.
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15:13:37 <zzo38> As well as call/cc you might also try the other variant which I called "lem/cc"; I have proven that it works not only in logic but also in programming
15:14:40 <zzo38> Do you have the dream where you are mainly observing the dream rather than acting the dream?
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15:15:53 <kmc> not lately
15:15:56 <kmc> what's the type of lem/cc?
15:17:08 <zzo38> In Haskell it is: Cont r (Either a (a -> Cont r b))
15:18:10 <kmc> `delquote 1026
15:18:15 <HackEgo> *poof* <kmc> i had a dream just now where i was in a gymnasium and they had fire alarm pull stations but they also had a similarly shaped "call/cc alarm" which I think you were supposed to pull if you found a way to write call/cc (because it was expected that people in this gymnasium would be doing a lot of programming in total dependently-typed
15:18:29 <kmc> `addquote <kmc> i had a dream just now where i was in a gymnasium and they had fire alarm pull stations but they also had a similarly shaped "call/cc alarm" which I think you were supposed to pull if you found a way to write call/cc (it was expected that people in this gymnasium would be doing a lot of programming in total dependently-typed languages)
15:18:33 <HackEgo> 1026) <kmc> i had a dream just now where i was in a gymnasium and they had fire alarm pull stations but they also had a similarly shaped "call/cc alarm" which I think you were supposed to pull if you found a way to write call/cc (it was expected that people in this gymnasium would be doing a lot of programming in total dependently-typed languages)
15:19:19 <elliott> i don't get it, what changed
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15:23:35 <olsner> he removed a "because"
15:27:50 -!- Taneb has joined.
15:28:03 <olsner> technically I think we have to delete the new quote, then you can say your modified sentence and elliott can quote that
15:29:10 <kmc> i had a dream just now where i was in a gymnasium and they had fire alarm pull stations but they also had a similarly shaped "call/cc alarm" which I think you were supposed to pull if you found a way to write call/cc (it was expected that people in this gymnasium would be doing a lot of programming in total dependently-typed languages)
15:29:17 <lambdabot> Taneb: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
15:29:33 <kmc> except now i'm the liar because it wasn't "just now" anymore!!!
15:30:04 <elliott> kmc: imo removing the "because" loses something
15:30:19 <elliott> how about we go back in time
15:30:25 <elliott> and fix the irc rfc to allow more chars
15:30:41 <elliott> shorten hackego's username to c and make it a single-digit-number quote
15:30:43 <elliott> would that be enough chars
15:32:21 <olsner> or make hackego split lines that are too long?
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16:03:09 <Sgeo> Is putting large chunks of butter on my bagels a bad idea?
16:04:04 <Taneb> THEY CRUSH THE BAGEL
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16:04:20 <Taneb> I got crushed by the butter
16:04:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, yeah with your diet you're at serious risk of coronary disease
16:05:25 * Sgeo cannot tell if Phantom_Hoover is serious or joking
16:06:57 <Sgeo> But I have been gaining quite a bit lately, if I'm not careful I could end up... with... too much weight... this is a bizarre concept for me
16:07:25 <Sgeo> But I mean butter is fatty, right? Is it a healthy kind of fat or an unhealthy fat?
16:08:25 <Taneb> Unhealthy, I think
16:08:36 <Sgeo> I'm seeing a lot of natural BS sites promoting butter as healthy
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16:11:15 <kmc> i'm still not sold on this idea that weight gain / loss depends so much on what /particular/ kind of fat / sugar / etc. you eat
16:11:44 <Taneb> kmc, it's blood congestion rather than weight gain that the saturated/unsaturated thing is about
16:11:47 <kmc> i'm no expert but in my end user capacity, i think that's a second order effect
16:11:54 <Bike> "MONGOLIA'S MEGA-FISH IN FIGHT FOR SURVIVAL" just fyi, cablegate stuff from 'unimportant' countries is p. great
16:11:58 <kmc> well, i thought Sgeo was talking about weight
16:12:07 <Bike> "164-Foot Genghis Khan with Laser Eyes to Tower Over Niagara"
16:12:53 <kmc> [.. CSX ..]
16:13:13 <Bike> apparently during the soviet era stuff about genghis was repressed due to that whole "conquered russia" thing
16:14:09 <Bike> "Although the Mongolian-Kuwait bilateral trade relationship remains minuscule, mostly trade in falcons,"
16:14:19 <kmc> falconcoins
16:14:33 <Taneb> Mongolia and Kuwait
16:14:54 <Bike> "Mongolia With Kuwait Against Iraq; Bond of Falcons"
16:15:17 <Bike> wow apparently a mongolian falcon is around $7k to buy
16:15:43 <Sgeo> kmc, while trying to gain weight, I don't feel like having a heart attack from having the wrong kinds of fats floating around
16:17:37 <Sgeo> My dad suggests after some time I should get a lipid profile. Haven't heard of that before, but that sounds like it makes sense
16:19:28 <Sgeo> I ate teriyaki sirloin steak yesterday
16:19:39 <Sgeo> I think the sauce had more flavor than the steak
16:22:16 <doesthiswork> well the sauce is specifically designed to have flavor
16:22:35 <Sgeo> So why do people like steak so much then?
16:23:08 <Sgeo> They even tell me that getting steak well-done ruins it
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16:23:32 <Sgeo> (I had it medium-well last night)
16:26:43 <doesthiswork> I don't know, I like it meat in small chunks with the hell cooked out of them, because they've got a more fun texture that way
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16:30:51 <Sgeo> <insert old joke about boiling the hell out of water to get holy water here>
16:31:28 <nooodl> > "hell" `elem` ["uncooked","beef"]
16:32:54 <doesthiswork> if you've ever eaten uncooked beef that has sat out for too long then you'd know all about the hell in it
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16:35:14 <Taneb> Sgeo, people are weird about steak
16:35:35 <kmc> doesthiswork: you also get the fun texture if only the outside is burnt
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16:38:01 <AnotherTest> "Windows XP makes wireless networking with your computer easy and secure, so you can work where you want, when you want."
16:38:34 <kmc> when you cook sous vide steak, you get to keep all the juices and can put them on mashed potatoes, which makes them delicious
16:38:49 <kmc> which demonstrates that steak itself is not flavorless
16:38:54 <kmc> but yeah, plain steak is kind of sad
16:39:15 <AnotherTest> "Experience the ultimate in safety, security, and privacy"
16:39:23 <Sgeo> AnotherTest, are you watching XPTV?
16:39:36 <kmc> you need seasonings (garlic, salt, pepper) and sides (mashed potatoes, fried mushrooms, french fries, greens, etc)
16:39:51 <AnotherTest> Yes, there's this great show on "Registering components"
16:39:58 <kmc> but it's not really fair to claim that the steak is not doing anything
16:40:01 <AnotherTest> and then once in a while this black DOS screen pops up
16:40:02 <kmc> flavors are not linear additive
16:40:06 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0aO0jumwHdg&list=PLBFD29B2364412ABA
16:40:10 <Sgeo> AnotherTest, ^
16:40:10 <kmc> flavors enhance each other
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16:40:28 <kmc> Sgeo: sous vide is a way of cooking meats that was popular first with gourmet chefs and now with hobbyists
16:41:20 <kmc> Sgeo: the goal of cooking a steak is to raise the interior to only about 135°F; traditionally this is done by grilling or frying at a much higher temperature, but then you need to be really careful about the time to make sure you don't over-cook it
16:41:53 <kmc> to cook a steak sous vide, you vacuum-seal it in a plastic bag and then put that in a water bath at 135°F or whatever, for an hour or more
16:42:08 <kmc> the whole thing reaches that temperature and therefore reaches exactly the level of done-ness you want
16:42:14 <Taneb> kmc, that sounds science-y
16:42:18 <kmc> then you quickly fry it to get the crunchy outside texture
16:42:20 <kmc> yeah it's great
16:42:30 <kmc> i do it with a crock pot, a temperature sensor, and an arduino
16:42:39 <kmc> there are lots of DIY sous vide projects online that you can read about
16:43:12 <kmc> some other dishes involve cooking for 48+ hours this way
16:43:41 <kmc> apparently you can also cook cheap steak this way and make it delicious, because if it's in long enough, the tough stringy connective tissue starts to gelatenize
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16:48:30 <pikhq_> I'm not entirely sure why steak has quite the reputation it does... Its flavor is really fairly subtle.
16:48:40 <kmc> which reputation is that?
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16:49:08 <pikhq_> kmc: The everyman kinda-expensive food that people really like?
16:49:36 <kmc> it's a little strange
16:50:40 <pikhq_> I mean, I like it, but it's kinda one of those more... delicate things. Y'know?
16:51:24 <pikhq_> Oh, who am I kidding, most people probably just slather steak sauce on it. And then it tastes rather different. :P
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16:55:43 <doesthiswork> why are there so many people in the channel that never talk?
16:55:49 <Sgeo> Why is it called steak sauce? Does it not taste good on other kinds of meat? Or on bread, or lettuce?
16:56:16 <mroman_> doesthiswork: Because I can't talk anything smart :)
16:56:34 <pikhq_> Though it's *essentially* UK "brown sauce".
16:56:45 <Taneb> doesthiswork, because we are funny to watch, perhaps
16:56:48 <mroman_> and americans can't make sauce .
16:56:55 <doesthiswork> mroman_: I don't see these guy talk anything smart
16:57:10 <Taneb> I prefer pepper sauce to brown sauce
16:57:12 <mroman_> Isn't guys used for gals too?
16:57:32 <kmc> doesthiswork: most channels have that
16:57:33 <mroman_> At least on television a bunch of girls usually address each other also with "hey guys"
16:57:47 <kmc> Sgeo: i used to put it on lots of things besides steak
16:57:52 <kmc> names are arbitrary
16:58:06 <kmc> yes I think "guys" is becoming gender-neutral
16:58:15 <mroman_> but I'm assuming guy still means male.
16:58:18 <kmc> and to some extent "dude" as well
16:58:29 <mroman_> but guys is usaly gender-neutral.
16:58:33 <elliott> kmc: i don't really think that's true
16:58:36 <kmc> but i'm still somewhat careful about it
16:58:57 <kmc> English needs better pronouns
16:59:06 <kmc> i use "they" as a gender-neutral third-person singular
16:59:15 <kmc> and i also use "y'all" as a second person plural
16:59:32 <kmc> even though i'm not from the south and don't have a southern accent
16:59:48 <mroman_> As long as you dont use "yo s*"
16:59:57 <kmc> there are some strange ones, like "yinz"
17:00:04 <kmc> (pittsburgh area)
17:00:15 <Fiora> the "guys being gender neutral" thing I think is mainly because "male is the default gender" so
17:00:32 <kmc> yeah, this is a reason to be careful
17:01:11 <Fiora> though whenever I think of replacements for that one I imagine someone in like, a southern drawl going "hey ya'llllll"
17:01:21 <doesthiswork> Guys is male by default but when the facts clearly show that not everyone is male it temporarily stretches to be inclusive
17:02:06 <elliott> that doesn't really make any sense
17:02:15 <kmc> it's bad that language is so gendered and it's not clear in each individual case whether it's better to invent new non-gendered forms or to try and ignore the gendered connotations in hopes that they go away
17:02:22 <kmc> i don't think there's an obvious answer to that
17:02:37 <kmc> both approaches can be harmful
17:03:22 <Sgeo> I've been in online places that invent new forms, and in online places that are explicit about the gendered forms being non-gendered by default
17:03:44 <kmc> you can't really change the meaning of words by fiat like that
17:03:49 <doesthiswork> The natural solution seems to be to use the nearest form that is unpolluted by the connotations you dislike.
17:03:52 <elliott> you can't just magically say something doesn't have gendered connotations by stating so...
17:03:57 <kmc> that's a big fallacy of programmers
17:04:01 <kmc> (and maybe lawyers?)
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17:04:08 <kmc> because it works in those specialized domains
17:04:11 <Sgeo> >.> they were both law-y games
17:04:14 <kmc> well then.
17:04:29 <kmc> i have signed contracts that have clauses like "In this document, the word "he" shall refer to blah blah"
17:04:40 <kmc> and "The word "or" shall mean "either/or""
17:04:42 <kmc> and crap like that
17:04:50 <elliott> then we would be in a magical fantasy land where there would be no point to ahve words with gendered connotations anyway
17:04:58 <Fiora> yeah, it's like the whole thing with "well <racist term> isn't actually racist, it really means <not racist thing>, as if like, saying so magically removes all the meaning it's gathered after 200 years
17:05:14 <Bike> something something hofstadter
17:05:30 <elliott> probably everything we are saying is part of some quote in a parenthical someone started in 2004
17:05:31 <kmc> or the sort of opposite "well when I said it I didn't *mean* it in a racist way so it's fine"
17:05:36 <elliott> the longest IRC message ever
17:05:46 <Bike> doesthiswork: quite
17:05:56 <elliott> no it's the other way around
17:06:12 <Fiora> universe collapsing in 5, 4, 3 ...
17:06:25 <elliott> finally i can stop wasting time on irc
17:06:55 <Fiora> elliott: I've kind of inadvertantly/subconsciously defaulted to the "hey guys" thing myself but when I do it consciously I just try to pick better phrases
17:06:58 <Fiora> like "hi everyone"
17:07:10 <kmc> i say "y'all" and i'm not ashamed of it
17:07:14 <kmc> i didn't grow up saying it though
17:07:20 <Fiora> it's like, there's enough options that I don't feel like it has to be awkward or hard
17:07:21 <kmc> i'm from the midwest, we have the "neutral" american accent
17:07:33 <Sgeo> I've been in a chatroom that auto-kicked when someone says "y'all"
17:07:37 <kmc> except for certain words that will get you mocked on the coasts
17:07:41 <kmc> like using "pop" for soda
17:07:53 <Fiora> I feel ridiculous trying to say y'all XD
17:08:01 <Fiora> because I am like so not stereotypically southerner or midwestern in the slightest
17:08:03 <kmc> elliott: "Good morning sinners!"
17:08:11 <kmc> doesthiswork: how do you mean
17:08:12 <Bike> i like "peeps"
17:08:22 <Sgeo> "Good morning siners!"
17:08:38 <kmc> good morning signers
17:08:59 <doesthiswork> kmc: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_cities_vowel_shift
17:09:00 <Sgeo> good morning singers
17:09:08 <Bike> i'm pretty nervous about language stuff in general since i realized how closely tied it is to racism and national suppression >_>
17:09:29 <Sgeo> (I read your good morning signers as singers at first, and wanted to do the firey version)
17:11:59 <elliott> just say "good morning not-bikes"
17:12:05 <elliott> that will say hi to everyone who matters
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17:24:39 <Phantom_Hoover> <kmc> and i also use "y'all" as a second person plural
17:25:16 <Taneb> Wasn't "you" originally plural exclusively?
17:25:42 <Bike> isn't vosotros only used in spain and argentina/
17:25:57 <Taneb> Bike, and Saudi Arabia, evidently
17:26:09 <Bike> hm, lots of castilian speakers there
17:26:40 <Taneb> In latin, the plural is "vos" and the singular is "tu"
17:26:56 <Taneb> It's similar in French, I believe, but I seem to recall that "vous" can be plural or formal
17:26:56 <Bike> yeah, my spanish class mentioned the v's but didn't teach us them since it was central america oriented.
17:27:06 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-V_distinction
17:27:48 <Koen_> honestly when using "vous" as formal singular I never know whether I should write all the adjectives and stuff in singular or plural
17:28:53 <Taneb> So, between "thou", "you", "y'all", and "all y'all", English has access to four different numbers of you
17:29:45 <Koen_> when was the last time you used thou?
17:30:22 <Koen_> OHGOD I DIDN'T IMAGINE YOU WOULD BE SO OLD
17:30:46 <Taneb> Koen_, I used "thou" this afternoon
17:30:48 <doesthiswork> all ya'll exists because y'all tends to be used for situations where prototypically the number of people are indeterminate.
17:31:04 <doesthiswork> so all ya'll means "each and every one of you"
17:31:19 <Koen_> Taneb: were you courting a lady
17:31:33 <Taneb> Koen_, as it happens, yes
17:31:41 <ThatOtherPerson> Koen_: in that case, the last time I used "thou" was about six words ago.
17:31:44 <Koen_> you're so transparent
17:32:35 <Taneb> Not as transparent as this guy: http://25.media.tumblr.com/3456e6adde7f9c89c55dc5afabf269f5/tumblr_ml7amfP5Bt1r3u0x4o4_500.png
17:32:37 <Koen_> ThatOtherPerson: I meant with people who don't discuss the semantics of each and every one of the languages they know on a regular basis
17:33:00 <Taneb> Koen_, that also rules me out
17:33:36 <Taneb> I am somewhat less transparent
17:33:42 <Koen_> Taneb: were you courting Fiora?
17:33:49 <Taneb> Koen_, no, I was not
17:33:55 <Taneb> I believe Fiora was in a different country
17:34:16 <Koen_> Taneb: were you courting Lymia?
17:34:27 <Taneb> I'm pretty sure Lymia was in a different country again
17:34:30 <ThatOtherPerson> Phantom_Hoover: I believe we are discussing ladies and how one courts them, if ever.
17:34:47 <elliott> Koen_: are you just going to name everyone female in the channel & why
17:34:54 <Taneb> The person whom I was courting I do not believe frequents this channel, or indeed IRC
17:35:00 <Koen_> I believe I just did elliott
17:35:15 <Taneb> ThatOtherPerson, not quite
17:35:19 <Taneb> She goes on TVTropes a lot
17:35:42 <Koen_> Taneb: do you discuss the semantics of each and every one of the languages you know on a regular basis with every lady that you have met so far?
17:36:05 <Taneb> Koen_, no, only the ones who were interested in this sort of thing
17:36:42 <Koen_> so what's your standard courting move?
17:36:56 <Koen_> I'm pretty convinced discussion the semantics of sex should work pretty well
17:37:10 <Taneb> We talked about vowel mergers
17:37:22 <Taneb> For instance the cot-caught merger
17:37:23 <Phantom_Hoover> still not at all clear on how this came up in the first place
17:37:30 <Koen_> if they're scientific they'll feel a deep need to perform the experiment
17:37:37 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, I'm being interrogated on my love life
17:37:43 <Taneb> In the context of linguistics
17:37:52 <Koen_> hey! you're the one who brought it to my attention!
17:38:28 <Taneb> I'm still surprised I actually have a love life
17:38:50 <Koen_> besides I've just been deemed admissible to a school where apparently everyone is even more of a geek than I am and that includes the suprisingly high number of girls
17:39:11 <elliott> oh jesus is this still about the 42.fr thing
17:39:20 <ThatOtherPerson> Fiora: has a guy ever discussed the semantics of a language with you? Other than on IRC, I mean.
17:39:32 <Taneb> Koen_, being a geek is surprisingly gender-neutral
17:39:38 <Taneb> Most of my friends who are geeks are female
17:39:47 <Taneb> And most of my friends who are female are geeks, as it happens
17:40:32 * Gregor bites the head off of a chicken.
17:40:40 <mnoqy> i agree with Gregor
17:40:42 <Bike> i have approximately 0 friends fuck you won the contest oh yeah
17:40:54 <mnoqy> i agree with Bike too
17:40:55 <Taneb> mnoqy, you seem different somehow
17:41:00 <Taneb> Have you had a haircut?
17:41:24 <mnoqy> i can't remember the last time i had one of those. wait i think i do -vaguely-
17:41:26 <ThatOtherPerson> Gregor: huh, what do feathers mixed with blood and eyes and muscle and bones and various organs taste like?
17:41:33 <kmc> "geek" is a pretty broad category at this point
17:41:42 <Gregor> ThatOtherPerson: Just like chicken.
17:42:27 <Taneb> kmc, I'm using it in the sense of "willing to be openly enthusiastic of things they like, especially things such as super-hero movies"
17:42:29 <kmc> geek communities vary widley in terms of gender ratio, and in terms of how they treat women
17:42:58 <Gregor> I don't bite the head off of roosters.
17:43:25 <kmc> one thing I've learned (from talking to the people who work on this problem) is that if your local language user group meetup is 3% women and you want it to be 30% women, there are some fairly concrete steps you can take to make this happen fairly quickly
17:43:37 <Koen_> mnoqy: are you one of those guys to whom the hairdresser says "see you next year" after a haircut?
17:44:06 <mnoqy> i went off of hairdressers cold-turkey
17:44:22 <Phantom_Hoover> realisation of the day: my keyboard's chording is too shitty to play girp
17:44:26 <Bike> monqy just occasionally burns off his hair
17:45:06 <kmc> Bike: well the Boston Python group had intro and intermediate classes for "women and their friends", producing a group which is at least 50% women (and ensuring that the men who show up know someone rather than being random creepers)
17:45:27 <kmc> and this had an immediate effect on the ratio at the gender-neutral events
17:45:46 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, that sucks
17:46:06 <Taneb> ThatOtherPerson, http://www.foddy.net/GIRP.html
17:46:14 <Bike> going to freshman physics and CS classes and there being a 9/1 ratio is still creepy as hell
17:46:17 <Taneb> It's a climbing sim from the maker of QWOP
17:46:41 <Taneb> My further maths class has a 10:0 male/female ration
17:46:43 <Bike> should be a dating sim imo
17:47:03 <Taneb> A male/female ration would be interesting
17:47:23 <kmc> http://www.slideshare.net/kellan/more-women-in-engineering-something-that-actually-worked-14630106
17:47:28 <Taneb> And perhaps illegal
17:47:30 <kmc> this is about Etsy and Hacker School
17:47:59 <Taneb> (my less far maths class I think is about 4:1)
17:48:16 <Taneb> (my latin class is 1:4)
17:48:32 <kmc> last week I helped run http://wellesley.openhatch.org/
17:48:34 <Taneb> (except someone hasn't turned up since Christmas so it's really (1:3)
17:49:07 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, I have many keyboards!
17:49:11 <Bike> "something that ACTUALLY WORKED" i'm sorry kmc but i have to laugh at this subtitle
17:50:17 <Bike> http://image.slidesharecdn.com/firstroundctosummit-121008002521-phpapp02/95/slide-19-728.jpg?1360178044 i still find it hard to believe that they make you actually write out code. i'm so naive
17:50:49 <Bike> http://image.slidesharecdn.com/firstroundctosummit-121008002521-phpapp02/95/slide-26-728.jpg?1360178044 nice
17:50:50 <kmc> writing code out on paper sucks ass
17:51:11 <Bike> yeah i did that a lot in high school
17:51:26 <kmc> ThatOtherPerson: are those vim commands
17:51:36 <kmc> Bike: yeah, I took AP CS, we had to write out C++ code by hand
17:51:42 <kmc> that's how I finally learned how to draw the & character
17:51:43 <kmc> it's not easy!
17:52:12 <Taneb> qwop I've never got the hang of
17:52:20 <Taneb> girp I'm almost competent at
17:52:33 <Bike> i always used to draw & backwards >_>
17:52:39 <mnoqy> & is cool i write it all the time
17:53:08 <Bike> "SUBJECT: WARNING: TAINTED LOCAL VODKA KILLS 11 IN MONGOLIA " these cables are seriously great
17:53:32 <Bike> you some kinda classicist, boy
17:53:55 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: -`: not found
17:54:03 <elliott> i "exclude" the middle by not putting any space between the letters
17:55:29 <kmc> Bike: more recently I've done coding interviews with an actual computer
17:55:49 <kmc> often those are only partly about the code, and partly about watching how someone works
17:55:55 <kmc> how easily they can look up docs, grep a codebase
17:55:59 <kmc> judging them by their choice of editor
17:56:25 <kmc> and yeah, that list of 4 rules from Hacker School is good
17:56:53 <elliott> my editor habits are weird
17:56:54 <kmc> the even worse form of (2) that I hear often is "You do know that $foo, right?"
17:57:01 <elliott> i switch between emacs and vim constantly
17:57:28 <Bike> i'm always just like, ugh, can't you talk about this without being so elitist
17:57:49 <elliott> i say that kind of thing impulsively a lot and then feel guilty for being condescending
17:58:00 <Bike> i usually have emacs on but i use vi to edit files quickly because i'm too dumb to work out emacsclient. i figure knowing both decently isn't so bad, anyway
17:58:01 <Taneb> elliott, you should disappear for a bit then go to an interview done by kmc under a false name
17:58:07 <elliott> (successfully made this issue about myself)
17:58:43 <kmc> yeah I complain publicly about how people communicate as a way to commit to communicating better myself
17:58:47 <kmc> that's maybe half of it
17:58:52 <kmc> the other half is that i like complaining
17:58:55 <Taneb> I never learnt vim, and am barely competent at emacs
17:59:20 <Bike> basically you just do C-S-c M-<up> M-x dwim
17:59:42 <olsner> is that how you exit emacs?
18:00:12 <Bike> no, you need mount separate
18:01:08 <elliott> [joke comparing emacs to an operating system] [sitcom laugh track]
18:01:17 <elliott> [joke about emacs lacking an editor] [sitcom laugh track]
18:01:42 <Taneb> Man, I want a sitcom laugh track
18:02:04 <mnoqy> probably pretty easy to find
18:02:13 <Bike> "The Soviet Hangover: Alcoholism Threatens Mongolia's Progress"
18:02:16 <mnoqy> just have to "know" where to "look"
18:05:04 <Taneb> Everyone would hate me
18:05:11 <mnoqy> it would be awful :☺)
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18:18:19 <Fiora> ThatOtherPerson: semantics of language...? I.. I don't know... probably someone has rambled about that at some point...
18:18:26 -!- nooodl has joined.
18:18:40 <Fiora> I have a really bad memory, I can't really remember many details beyond a week or two ago...
18:20:03 <Fiora> I'd probably only remember it if it was a more emotional moment (like if it was frustrating or painful or something...)
18:20:15 <Bike> babe are you a kalmyk because *rambles about altaic theory for twenty minutes*
18:21:06 <Bike> all the ladies love historical linguistics
18:23:08 <Bike> the kalmyk republic is part of western russia. the kalmyk people who make up about half of it are mongolic and speak a mongolian language called kalmyk.
18:23:11 <Fiora> I guess I couuuld argue that someone telling me about how 'cunt' isn't a gendered insult is 'telling me about the semantics of language'
18:23:15 <Bike> this is "fiora-relevant" because it's a chess place.
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18:24:03 <Bike> The Altaic theory is an idea that a couple asian language groups like Turkic, Mongolic, and Japonic are all actually part of a larger grouping called Altaic. It's pretty non-mainstream.
18:24:52 <kmc> Fiora: ;_;
18:25:27 <Bike> Fiora: i'm trying to imagine a pickup line for this
18:26:30 <Bike> it's not working
18:26:53 <Bike> i just imagine a guy in a suit and fedora walking up to a seat at the bar, and opening his mouth, and then cockroaches pour out
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18:31:08 <Fiora> Bike: I am like dying laughing at that metaphor
18:31:22 <Bike> metap- oh, right, yeah
18:32:25 <Bike> fact: whenever i try to picture a stereotypical bar scene, i always think of that one scene from naked lunch
18:35:46 <Bike> the cronenberg film adapted from the burroughs book
18:36:04 <Bike> guy walks up to a bar and the mugwump, a weird looking alien creature starts advising him about a gay cruise
18:36:26 <mnoqy> i misread that as gay cuisine. like, what's that.
18:37:54 <Bike> I can't find the bar scene so have some Zappa instead http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MsO1FLYee8
18:39:48 <pikhq_> mnoqy: Gay cuisine is nothing but spotted dick.
18:40:02 <mnoqy> sorry you're a bit late to the party
18:40:07 <Fiora> Bike: you also didn't get to see the part of that conversation where the guy was arguing about how complaining about someone "PMSing" isn't at all sexist <.<
18:40:23 <Bike> wait is this the ##asm thing
18:40:45 <mnoqy> ##asm sounds like hell
18:40:45 <Bike> yeah i think i remember that, unfortunately
18:41:06 <Bike> i couldn't tell you, i got banned, 'cos i'm a rebel. ain't be tamed
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18:41:34 <elliott> got banned for using AT&T syntax
18:41:41 <kmc> yeah I lasted like an hour there
18:41:55 <Fiora> it was actually fine most of the time? like it was better than ##c even
18:41:59 <Bike> this also led me to learn that freenode doesn't count slurs as discriminatory or something
18:42:03 <Fiora> despite not really having a good mod like ##c does
18:42:03 <kmc> "better than ##c"
18:42:08 <Bike> whatever, fuck the police
18:42:15 <Fiora> (though she's mostly pretty hands off)
18:42:24 <Bike> Fiora: you sure it wasn't just that guy whose name started with X who was good?
18:42:36 <ais523> is ##asm about asm in general, or a particular asm in particular?
18:42:36 <lambdabot> ais523: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
18:42:39 <lambdabot> oerjan said 1d 18h 8m 55s ago: You seem to have missed User:EzraFrier
18:42:42 <Fiora> okay maybe -_- but like there were lots of people who asked questions and talked about things and people even like, asked me for help in PM
18:42:44 <mnoqy> what does ##asm think of TERSE
18:42:44 <Bike> ais523: in general
18:42:48 <Bike> Fiora: oh, huh
18:42:49 <pikhq_> If I had to guess it'd be about x86 assembly.
18:43:00 <Fiora> and I got a grand total of just two creepy people the whole time, that's a new record
18:43:03 <Bike> no, it's general, even says so in the topic, and people asked about ARM &c.
18:43:14 <kmc> i spent like a week in ##c helping beginners, and then one day I answered a question wrong and they were like STFU YOU FUCKING MORON GET OUT
18:43:27 <Bike> But I don't really want to stick around watching people get called "PMSing cunts"
18:43:27 <kmc> it was about variable length arrays "who even uses those"
18:43:29 * pikhq_ does not envy women on the internet.
18:43:44 <Fiora> kmc: it really seems to wildly depend on who's active in the channel
18:43:48 <ais523> !tell oerjan good catch, I indeed missed it
18:43:49 <elliott> does ##c actually have good ops
18:43:55 <pikhq_> Not on the stack, mind, but hey.
18:43:56 <Fiora> I rejoined it after having like, a 4 hour conversation with the moderator there
18:43:57 <elliott> because that seems to be at odds with ##c being the worst channel in the universe
18:44:05 <Fiora> who is kind of wonderful
18:44:06 <Fiora> and fun to talk with
18:44:09 <pikhq_> foo(char bar[static 4]) is quite nice.
18:44:13 <Fiora> well, one of the moderators,I don't know if there's others
18:44:23 <ais523> @tell oerjan good catch, I indeed missed it
18:44:26 <pikhq_> Or foo(size_t x, char bar[x])
18:44:39 <ais523> hmm… the most annoying thing about rebinding caps lock
18:44:45 <ais523> is that in the rare cases you turn it on by mistake
18:44:50 <ais523> it takes a while to remember how to turn it off
18:45:03 <ais523> (I rebound the caps lock key to compose, and the caps lock command to shift+shift)
18:45:29 <mnoqy> is caps lock ever useful
18:45:37 <pikhq_> It makes a great control.
18:45:40 <ais523> when you're typing disclaimers
18:45:49 <pikhq_> I've got l-win as compose.
18:45:59 <ais523> pikhq_: huh? super is a really useful key
18:46:04 <kmc> pikhq_: did you see the linux exploit that happened because someone used a VLA on the stack
18:46:09 <kmc> and kernel stacks are only 8kB
18:46:19 <ais523> this laptop doesn't have an r-win
18:46:21 <mnoqy> i use the silly menu key as compose. no R-win…
18:46:23 <kmc> and by "someone" i mean econet.ko
18:46:29 <pikhq_> kmc: No, but I can imagine. :)
18:46:30 <Fiora> oh gosh. a VLA in the kernel?
18:46:31 <ais523> mnoqy: the menu key is actually useful
18:46:59 <pikhq_> Fiora: VLAs in general are quite nice. The problem is, *on the stack* they are an attack waiting to happen.
18:47:05 <ais523> mnoqy: it's probably the fastest way to correct typos when you can't remember what the correct spelling is
18:47:13 <kmc> Fiora: Linux driver for Econet, a network protocol used by British home computers from the 80's
18:47:18 <kmc> a driver that /nobody/ uses anymore
18:47:29 <mnoqy> ais523: good point except i dont use editors with that feature =/
18:47:29 <pikhq_> But when passed as arguments they make array handling somewhat nicer.
18:47:32 <kmc> since nobody uses it, it's full of bugs
18:47:40 <kmc> but until recently, it was part of the kernel and built by most distros
18:47:51 <kmc> and it would even auto-load if unprivileged userspace tried to create an Econet socket!
18:47:52 <mnoqy> for some reason my e-mail composition spell check doesnt work
18:47:54 <Fiora> pikhq_: um, VLAs can be not on the stack?
18:48:18 <pikhq_> Fiora: Yes. void foo(size_t x, char bar[x])
18:48:42 <pikhq_> Or void foo(size_t x, size_t y, char bar[x][y])
18:48:47 <mnoqy> that's pretty cute
18:48:56 <kmc> Fiora: http://pastebin.com/88EPCd2q a fun exploit for one bug in econet
18:49:07 <Fiora> oh, isn't that just the same as a pointer...?
18:49:08 <kmc> well it actually exploits 3 bugs
18:49:10 <Fiora> or is there some different
18:49:17 <kmc> the most interesting one is not in econet
18:49:21 <pikhq_> Fiora: No, it's actually an array. Straight-up a full array.
18:49:37 <pikhq_> Fiora: As opposed to void foo(char bar[4]), which is just a pointer.
18:49:46 <pikhq_> And void foo(char bar[static 4]) is also an array.
18:49:55 <Fiora> @_@ I will never quite get C
18:50:12 <pikhq_> For what it's worth, this is a fairly obscure bit of C.
18:50:40 <kmc> super obscure I'd say
18:50:45 <pikhq_> Added in C99, and many people still avoid C99 features like the plague.
18:50:55 <kmc> i like C99 :<
18:51:08 <pikhq_> But some people think they should still support MSVC.
18:51:13 <mnoqy> c99 is better than that other standard
18:51:18 <pikhq_> (the IE6 of compilers)
18:53:15 <Fiora> kmc: geez I don't understand 90% of that but that's amazing
18:53:27 <kmc> the exploit? i can go into it
18:53:42 <Fiora> oh, you can? um, I'd love to listen if you want to
18:53:46 <kmc> also there's a walkthrough in my talk about kernel exploits: http://ugcs.net/~keegan/talks/kernel-exploit/talk.pdf
18:54:13 <kmc> maybe look through that first, and i can answer questions
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18:55:48 <ais523> kmc: the only exploit on a stack-VLA is allocating more data than actually fits on the stack, right?
18:56:02 <kmc> that's the main one anyway
18:56:04 <Fiora> oh kmc so like before I touch this, someone had an interesting question in ##c-unregistered that was like. actually really interesting
18:56:04 <ThatOtherPerson> Someone tell me an esolang that will take ~1-2 hours to implement
18:56:10 <ais523> that usually causes a segfault in userspace, but the kernel doesn't have that escape valve
18:56:23 <Fiora> they're porting Jedi Academy to Linux from the open source code, and they were wondering what a particular code snippet did
18:56:34 <Fiora> and now I realize like. why so many programs are hard to port...
18:56:39 <mnoqy> ThatOtherPerson: Eodermdrome
18:56:42 <Fiora> it had a NULL pointer check that looked like this:
18:56:49 <Fiora> if((int)psString > 0)
18:56:58 <kmc> ais523: well in Linux userspace anyway, the stack is usually an auto-growing mapping
18:57:14 <AnotherTest> ThatOtherPerson: write a brainfuck interpreter in 60 different programming languages
18:57:18 <ais523> kmc: yes but it's possible to mmap something next to the stack guard page
18:57:21 <ais523> and then it can't grow any more
18:57:29 <kmc> and then it will fault
18:57:30 <Fiora> and of course that code works wonderfully...
18:57:33 <Fiora> ... on windows 32-bit ...
18:57:36 <ThatOtherPerson> AnotherTest: I don't even know 60 different programming languages :/
18:57:39 <Fiora> ... without /LARGEADDRESSAWARE... -_-
18:57:48 <ais523> Fiora: it works quite neatly on 64-bit, too
18:58:01 <ais523> because the addresses that map to negative as a signed int are all reserved by the kernel, IIRC
18:58:05 <ais523> that's physical memory
18:58:15 <Fiora> it'd work if it was (intptr_t)ptr on 64-bit, I think?
18:58:16 <olsner> ais523: also, int may still be 32-bit
18:58:16 <ais523> does the kernel potentially map stuff into virtual memory with negative addresses?
18:58:17 <kmc> ais523: on a lot of 64-bit architectures, int is smaller than void*
18:58:20 <kmc> such as amd64
18:58:39 <Fiora> but (int) might be too small
18:58:58 <ais523> ThatOtherPerson: just looking through mine, Suffolk is unimplemented but shouldn't take too long to implement
18:59:01 <kmc> why do people even write that, why not if (psString)
18:59:02 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Suffolk
18:59:05 <kmc> also lol hungarian notation
18:59:09 <Fiora> but it breaks on linux 32-bit because linux uses the bottom 3GB for userspace, right?
18:59:19 * Fiora is going by the chart in your pdf <.<
18:59:23 <kmc> for people who love manifest types but hate typechecking
18:59:32 <kmc> Fiora: it does (on i386 anyway)
18:59:33 <ThatOtherPerson> I once wrote a function that took a uint16_t[65536] when I was tired and not thinking
18:59:39 <kmc> so yeah, your stack will typically have a 'negative' address
18:59:43 <kmc> since it's at the top of the userspace 3GB
19:00:00 <kmc> (also you can build a kernel with a different split, or even one where userspace and kernel have different page tables)
19:00:08 <kmc> (but 3GB / 1GB is the default and nearly universal afaik)
19:00:32 <kmc> also, i386 programs running on an x86_64 kernel get a full 4GB
19:00:50 <Fiora> that explains why the code broke then, I guess
19:00:51 <ais523> actually, nowadays from the userspace point of view, things like the stack are in random locations
19:00:54 <ais523> to make exploits harder to write
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19:01:33 <ais523> anyway, the thing that confuses me, is why compare a pointer to 0 for less than/greater than?
19:01:44 <ais523> on most processors, it's exactly as efficient as the correct code that checks for equality
19:02:28 <Fiora> I have no idea ._.
19:02:33 <ais523> I guess on some microcontrollers I've worked on, testing to see if a number is negative is more efficient than testing to see if it's zero
19:02:35 -!- ThatOtherPerson has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
19:02:36 <kmc> people write bad code :/
19:02:36 <ais523> but not testing to see if a number is positive
19:02:46 <ais523> (testing for negative is testing a single bit, which is slightly easier than testing an entire byte)
19:02:59 <olsner> if it's not merely stupid, it might be checking for something special - could e.g. HANDLEs have the upper bit set?
19:03:31 <ais523> olsner: special pointer-like values on Windows tend to be odd
19:03:36 <kmc> also executable ASLR is almost useless on i386: http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.redhat.fedora.devel/177905
19:03:38 <quintopia> ais523: don't most processors have a circuit that ands together every bit in the register to make zero-checking efficient
19:03:43 <kmc> only 8 bits of randomness
19:03:56 <ais523> because all legit int pointers on Windows are even
19:03:58 <kmc> I don't know if stack ASLR is more useful; probably, since the stack top doesn't have to be page aligned
19:04:03 <ais523> at least, that are used by the kernel
19:04:22 <ais523> quintopia: they do, and so did this one; however, it cost more words of program to tell the microcontroller to actually use them
19:06:06 <Fiora> kmc: ohhhhhhhh that's how the null pointer exploit trick works. putting the payload at 0 with mmap
19:06:15 <Fiora> is there some reason the OS... lets you do that? O_O
19:06:28 <Fiora> like why is mmap to 0 a thing
19:06:35 <kmc> it doesn't anymore
19:06:36 <olsner> the OS might've gotten confused and forgotten to prevent it
19:06:57 <kmc> Linux added sysctl vm.mmap_min_addr in like 2007
19:07:02 <kmc> but it still gets set to 0 sometimes
19:07:12 <Fiora> how do null pointer exploits like that work now?
19:07:15 <kmc> they don't
19:07:32 <kmc> but similar exploits that involve an invalid pointer that isn't NULL might work
19:07:33 <Fiora> but I remember there was a thing a little bit ago about a null pointer check being optimized improperly because of a thig
19:07:35 <Fiora> and that was an exploit?
19:08:15 <kmc> Fiora: I think that was not that recent, and would only work if mmap_min_addr is set to 0 or if the kernel is vulnerable to any of numerous mmap_min_addr bypasses that have been discovered throughout the year
19:08:34 <kmc> for a while if you installed Wine on Ubuntu, it would set mmap_min_addr = 0 globally
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19:08:45 <kmc> because, like, Win16 programs need to map stuff at zero?
19:08:47 <kmc> also dosemu
19:09:09 <kmc> http://blog.cr0.org/2009/06/bypassing-linux-null-pointer.html
19:10:12 <kmc> http://lxr.linux.no/linux+v2.6.30/fs/binfmt_elf.c#L976 sigh
19:10:57 <kmc> Linux developers value features like "can run SVr4 binaries on Linux" over security
19:11:02 <kmc> even if nobody ever does this ever
19:12:00 <olsner> it "might" be a good idea to make sure that even if the user program maps something at 0 it doesn't affect the kernel
19:12:03 <Bike> guh, who uses system v binaries at all
19:12:23 <kmc> olsner: that's hard to do though
19:12:48 <kmc> if you want userspace and kernel to have different page tables, that improves security greatly, but also greatly increases the overhead of a system call
19:12:56 <kmc> on x86 anyway
19:13:06 <kmc> because switching page tables involves a TLB flush
19:13:34 <kmc> some architectures have tagged TLBs that can hold onto entries from address spaces that are not currently in use
19:13:36 <Fiora> could they use VM instructions to handle that?
19:13:44 <Taneb> elliott, have you done any work on @ since you met me
19:13:44 <kmc> Fiora: yes! I heard of someone doing that
19:13:52 <kmc> don't have a link though :/
19:13:53 <Fiora> so like, userspace is a """VM"""
19:14:17 <Fiora> gosh that's. that's actually a pretty cool idea
19:14:21 <mnoqy> "sort of work on @"
19:14:21 <Fiora> if you find it poke me with it, that sounds really fun
19:14:23 <kmc> hm ARM has tagged TLBs, that's good
19:15:14 <olsner> I think x86 also has tagged TLBs nowadays
19:15:38 <kmc> it has the ability to set 'global' mappings that don't get flushed automatically
19:15:49 <kmc> i don't know of anything beyond that, setting aside VMX / SVM virtualization extensions
19:16:36 <Fiora> "Invalidates mappings in the translation lookaside buffers (TLBs) and paging-struc-ture caches based on the invalidation type specified in the first operand andprocessor context identifier (PCID) invalidate descriptor specified in the secondoperand."
19:16:44 <Fiora> is a processor context identifier related to this?
19:16:52 <Fiora> what is a processor context identifier -_-
19:16:58 <kmc> hm i don't know
19:17:05 <olsner> what I was thinking of was the ASID that you can set when you set the pointer to the page tables
19:17:34 <kmc> http://www.realworldtech.com/westmere/ talks about it
19:17:42 <kmc> so it does sound like a tagged tlb basically
19:17:44 <kmc> that's cool!
19:17:50 <kmc> i wonder if linux uses it
19:18:03 <kmc> Fiora: have you used http://livegrep.com
19:18:29 <Fiora> oooh, so it's a tagged TLB thing but aimed at VMs
19:18:37 <Fiora> INVPCID is a new instruction in um... I think haswell? I'm not sure
19:18:48 <Fiora> livegrep...? what does it do
19:18:56 <kmc> searches the linux kernel, really fucking fast
19:19:00 <kmc> with regexes
19:19:24 <Fiora> haswell has a lot of interesting stuff like that it seems, like it has smep too
19:19:33 <mnoqy> what flavor of regex is this
19:19:38 <Fiora> .... I don't know regexes though >_<
19:20:00 <kmc> http://livegrep.com/search/linux?q=%5B0-9a-fA-F%5D%7B8%7D-%5B0-9a-fA-F%5D%7B4%7D-%5B0-9a-fA-F%5D%7B4%7D-%5B0-9a-fA-F%5D%7B4%7D-%5B0-9a-fA-F%5D%7B12%7D
19:21:44 <Bike> nice 'n' readable url
19:22:14 <Koen_> I stopped reading at "linux", what did I miss
19:22:38 <elliott> saying anything of value maybe?
19:23:47 <Koen_> if I were a haskell person we'd have been three to type that command!
19:23:56 <kmc> wow elliott
19:24:14 <Taneb> > "thanks" ^. to sort
19:24:20 <elliott> how are you doing? very welliott
19:25:06 <lambdabot> (Conjoined p, Gettable f) => (s -> a) -> p a (f a) -> p s (f s)
19:25:08 <elliott> what's going on? not melliott
19:28:07 -!- ThatOtherPerson has joined.
19:28:30 <Taneb> > ["thanks", "lens"] ^. to sort
19:28:37 <Taneb> > ["thanks", "lens"] ^. traverse . to sort
19:29:01 <elliott> that sounds like some ancient place that should be in ruins
19:30:43 <Bike> elliott: that's a mean thing to say about a place!
19:32:06 <kmc> itt: getting a stab
19:32:56 <kmc> mnoqy: it's RE2 regexes
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19:33:36 <elliott> kmc: you have no idea how tired i am of getting a stab jokes
19:33:40 <elliott> they're as bad as burrito jokes in #haskell
19:33:43 -!- copumpkin has joined.
19:35:21 <Bike> no monad. radio!
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19:52:37 <shachaf> mnoqy: mnoqy is a variant spelling of gnocchi
19:53:30 <Taneb> Is that the thing with the tomato and the toast
19:53:54 <Koen_> Taneb I think that's a pizza
19:54:42 <shachaf> gnocchi mnoqy gnocchi mnoqy
19:58:07 <mnoqy> bruschetta is good. never've had gnocchi woops.
19:58:27 <shachaf> gnocchi is not the same things as bruschetta mnoqy................................
19:58:38 <shachaf> mnoqy: imo you can't keep this nick unless you have some gnocchi
19:58:48 <mnoqy> that explains why i've had bruschetta but not gnocchi
19:59:08 <mnoqy> or explains how? it explains something.
19:59:33 <doesthiswork> what if we made shirts have irregular button spacing so that it was harder to miss-button them
19:59:39 <shachaf> but did you know the law that you're not allowed to mention bruschetta and gnocchi in the same sentence woops
19:59:58 <shachaf> it's an ancient italian law, now you're not allowed to go to italy ever
20:01:36 <mnoqy> thanks shachaf(???????????????????????)
20:01:59 <shachaf> oh no what's that thing inthe parentheses
20:03:30 <mnoqy> i dont understand why you say the thing you're saying
20:05:40 <Koen_> YEAH WHY DYOU EVEN BOTHER OPENING THAT MOUTH OF YOURS
20:06:01 <shachaf> wow mnoqy did you mean that
20:07:07 <mnoqy> i did not mean the thing that koen said
20:07:13 <mnoqy> pls do not put words in my mouth
20:07:37 <Koen_> well note that I wouldn't be able to put words in your mouth IF YOU KEPT IT SHUT
20:07:58 <Koen_> my apologies won't happen again
20:08:00 <shachaf> Koen_: you're being pretty rude and making this channel worse for everyone
20:08:16 <shachaf> Koen_: your apologies haven't even happened once, it's not likely that they'll happen again at this rate
20:08:51 <Koen_> maybe I'll add an extra coma and maybe even a pronoun
20:08:54 <Bike> wait, is this a serious thing
20:09:36 <lambdabot> http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/ghc/newticket?type=bug
20:11:20 <HackEgo> kmc: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
20:12:56 <Taneb> I shouldn't be allowed to program on serious things at this time at night
20:14:43 <ThatOtherPerson> I've never really understood why Europe and Asia are considered to be separate continents
20:15:21 <shachaf> europe is more of a peninsula hth
20:15:36 <ThatOtherPerson> I'm pretty sure I could drive to Taneb's house from here, if I was crazy and wanted to drive forever.
20:15:47 <Taneb> ThatOtherPerson, I'm on an island
20:15:52 <Taneb> You'd have to catch a train
20:15:55 <pikhq_> ThatOtherPerson: How far is it?
20:16:15 <Koen_> that sounded surrealistic
20:16:23 <Taneb> You could probs drive to mnoqy's house
20:16:46 <ThatOtherPerson> Taneb: oh right, you're already in GB, which is an island, even if there's a tunnel to it
20:17:59 <ThatOtherPerson> but a drive from me to Taneb is somewhere around 6,629 km; 69 hours according to google maps
20:18:49 <kmc> when i was in Latvia there were signs for buses to London
20:18:52 <kmc> they're pretty slow.
20:19:31 <Taneb> ThatOtherPerson, to drive to Finland you have to choose whether you'd rather drive through Russia or Denmark
20:20:45 <Taneb> ThatOtherPerson, important question
20:20:45 <Bike> kmc: like through the chunnel or what
20:20:50 <ThatOtherPerson> Yikes, the Americas are kinda lonely and off in a corner, aren't they
20:20:52 <kmc> Bike: and/or boats
20:21:10 <ThatOtherPerson> Taneb: no but that's not really a prerequisite for driving in Saudi Arabia
20:21:27 <Bike> ThatOtherPerson: half the world is a pretty big corner as corners go imo
20:21:58 <nooodl> shachaf stole my gnocchi joke... but i didn't make it in #esoteric wow
20:22:01 <Bike> of course you can't actually drive from north to south america
20:22:08 <kmc> i think some of them take a boat across to sweeden
20:22:12 <Bike> so it's more like two corners
20:22:15 <shachaf> nooodl: oh no did you make it about mnoqy
20:22:31 <pikhq_> s like a 15 mile gap in the Trans-American Highway, right?
20:22:35 <ThatOtherPerson> It takes me about 24 hours to get to my grandparents' house in California from my house here
20:22:37 <Bike> yeah, in panama
20:22:47 <nooodl> my gnocchi joke is: mnoqy, gnocchi,
20:22:55 <kmc> looks like ecolines runs southwest to warszawa and then west through berlin and amsterdam at crosses at calais (but maybe not on the train)
20:22:56 <Bike> the jungle part specifically
20:22:57 <Taneb> ThatOtherPerson, it's gonna turn out your grandparents are shachaf, isn't it
20:23:07 <nooodl> it was in a ~secret channel~
20:23:20 <mnoqy> nooodl: wow, a secret????
20:23:21 <Bike> of course driving from northern colombia down to the tierra del fuego must be, uh, exciting
20:23:21 <ThatOtherPerson> The Americas used to be connected, but some goofsters decided to cut them apart
20:23:24 <Bike> not to mention the amazon
20:23:39 <kmc> a man, a plan, a canal, shachaf
20:23:49 <shachaf> nooodl: was it in a ~secret channel~ that you and mnoqy are both in
20:23:58 <Bike> pikhq_: 99 mile, apparently!
20:24:11 <shachaf> nooodl: what was that channel called
20:24:28 <Bike> wow wait the highway doesn't even hit brazil, let alone paraguay and such
20:24:36 <nooodl> well it wouldn't be very ~secret~ if i told
20:25:08 <kmc> unofficially the trans-american highway does extend to tierra del fuego i thought
20:25:11 <Bike> I guess you can probably get to most of Brazil from Buenos Aires though.
20:25:13 <kmc> as in, there are roads that connect through
20:25:14 <shachaf> nooodl: that's ok "i don't mind"
20:25:22 <Bike> kmc: Yeah, but it would be kind of a pain, I mean.
20:25:28 <kmc> also north to deadhorse or whatever
20:25:31 <Bike> There's a whole lot of mountains and stuff.
20:25:33 <kmc> but not through the darién gap :)
20:25:42 <kmc> uh, wherever the alaska highway ends
20:25:44 <nooodl> mnoqy: if shachaf asks you about secret channels forever now i'm sorry
20:25:48 <Bike> oh, no, there's a place called Deadhorse, wow
20:25:58 <Bike> i was thinking the capital of the northwest territories ._.
20:26:12 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Deadhorse_Alaska_aerial_view.jpg the name seems appropriate.
20:26:21 <shachaf> let me take you down, 'cause i'm going to / secret channels
20:26:27 <Taneb> Bike, Yellowknife?
20:26:45 <Taneb> Whitehorse is in the Yukon
20:26:46 <Bike> agh whitehorse is capital of the /yukon/
20:26:49 <Bike> canadians. fuckers
20:26:54 <kmc> er, not the alaska highway, the dalton highway
20:26:58 <shachaf> yukon say that again!!!!!!!!!!!!
20:27:00 <kmc> which has street view :)
20:27:03 <kmc> shachaf: ho ho ho
20:27:43 <shachaf> mnoqy: so tell me about secret channels forever
20:28:29 <kmc> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/12/PanAmericanHwy.png
20:28:32 <mnoqy> shachaf: probably it'd get old pretty quickly
20:29:15 <kmc> Des Moines doesn't merit a dot on this map :(
20:29:27 <Bike> kmc: "yeah, i'm takin' a vacation down in el salvador" "oh, going through denver or minneanapolis?"
20:29:49 <kmc> i can tell people I grew up by the pan-amerigan highway
20:29:51 <kmc> sounds so cool
20:30:36 <kmc> pan-amereegan
20:30:45 <Bike> oh the transsiberian highway is fully connected
20:30:53 <Bike> way to drop theh ball americas
20:32:00 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:%D0%A4%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%BB%D1%8C%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%8F_%D1%82%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%81%D1%81%D0%B0_%22%D0%91%D0%B0%D0%B9%D0%BA%D0%B0%D0%BB%22,_%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B9%D0%BE%D0%BD_%D0%A2%D0%B0%D0%B9%D1%88%D0%B5%D1%82%D0%B0.jpg very modern looking
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20:32:42 <shachaf> kmc: what do you think about the ""transcontinental railroad""
20:32:55 <shachaf> imo that url is missing a crucial letter just saying
20:33:03 <kmc> shachaf: in US? don't know where it is
20:33:06 <kmc> probably p. in favor tho
20:33:41 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Transcontinental_Railroad that's a long intro section........
20:33:42 <shachaf> It's not around anymore, is it?
20:33:50 <shachaf> I mean https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Transcontinental_Railroad
20:33:53 <Bike> 9289 km. that's p. long
20:33:59 <kmc> i don't know, isn't some of the right of way still in use?
20:34:08 <kmc> "hundreds of miles are still in service today, especially through the Sierra Nevada Mountains and canyons in Utah and Wyoming. While the original rail has long since been replaced because of age and wear, and the roadbed upgraded and repaired, the lines generally run on top of the original, handmade grade."
20:34:14 <Bike> that intro is way too long
20:38:30 <shachaf> hmm do they still have rail barons today
20:38:35 <shachaf> kmc should be a rail baron imo
20:38:51 <kmc> they don't have
20:39:13 <kmc> i should move to central asia and become a pipeline baron
20:39:41 <shachaf> oerjan: they're talking about you oerjan
20:39:46 <shachaf> 13:39 <edwardk> applicative, ski: equivalent doesn't mean equally useful. Twan's version keeps the 'next' 'f' in the free applicative that you need for interpretation exposed without recursion. Oerjan's requires you to walk uselessly over n levels to get to it.
20:41:55 <ThatOtherPerson> kmc: we already have like thousands of oil princes over here
20:42:14 <Bike> they're literal princes though. it's just not the same
20:42:24 <shachaf> is that like #haskell and all the "project oiler" people
20:42:45 <Bike> also is saudi arabia considered part of central asia now because i thought it was pretty far west
20:42:51 <Taneb> ThatOtherPerson, barons are pretty low on the nobility thingy
20:43:04 <Taneb> So they can be subordinate to oil princes
20:43:12 <Taneb> Bike, it's nowhere near central asia
20:43:16 <Bike> god geopolitics terms make no fucking sense
20:43:31 <Bike> the "middle east" is west/south of "central asia"
20:43:34 <kmc> that's fine because geopolitics also makes no fucking sense
20:44:09 <Bike> i like that the premier theory of international relations is based on the suspposition that it's all anarchic nonsense
20:44:25 <kmc> which theory is that?
20:44:50 <Bike> 'anarchy' being the really used term, 'nonsense' not so much but i was Humorously Exaggerating
20:45:43 <shachaf> Bike we have a No Humor policy here
20:45:59 <Bike> kmc: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchy_in_international_relations
20:46:02 <shachaf> kmc: How does Cygwin fork(), anyway?
20:46:08 <kmc> i don't know :(
20:46:29 <shachaf> It can't be that poor because it seems to work.
20:46:40 <shachaf> But Win32 doesn't give you anything like that, does it?
20:47:01 <ThatOtherPerson> Win32 is extremely confusing and should not be touched, iirc
20:47:19 <kmc> cygwin is like a dancing bear
20:48:49 <ThatOtherPerson> shachaf: basically, it goes through a lot of effort, calling a whole bunch of windows API functions, and somehow manages to replicate UNIX fork functionality
20:49:20 <shachaf> imo cygwin more like badideawin
20:49:36 <kmc> if JOS can implement copy-on-write fork in userspace then why not cygwin :( :(
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20:59:45 <kmc> shachaf: hm so (re #mosh) it might rely on the fact that every DLL is mapped at the same address in every process
20:59:56 <kmc> which I think is mostly true in Windows?
21:04:31 <shachaf> I thought it was a different address in every process but the same address between runs of the same process or something like that.
21:04:52 <kmc> yeah maybe http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Position-independent_code#Windows_DLLs
21:05:21 <shachaf> At any rate I heard that ASLR is done once per boot or something like that.
21:05:40 <kmc> DLLs are not position-independent code; they get relocated on load
21:05:57 <shachaf> Oh, maybe I'm wrong on the first part.
21:07:14 -!- augur has joined.
21:07:58 <kmc> (back later)
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21:14:58 -!- mnoqy has quit (Quit: hello).
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21:25:00 * oerjan swats shachaf -----###
21:25:01 <lambdabot> oerjan: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
21:25:16 <lambdabot> ais523 said 2h 40m 53s ago: good catch, I indeed missed it
21:26:02 <oerjan> shachaf: in fact i really knew it before that recent blog summary post about different versions.
21:27:26 <oerjan> but somehow i got caught up by the immediate praise anyhow.
21:28:45 <shachaf> oerjan: I wasn't saying you don't know it, I was saying #haskell was talking about you.
21:30:48 <oerjan> sorry, second law of thermodynamics
21:31:29 <olsner> every swat has an equal and opposite unswat?
21:31:36 <oerjan> you can remind me next time you do something bad, and we'll leave one out, ok?
21:31:48 <shachaf> How about I do something bad now?
21:31:59 <oerjan> olsner: you are confusing with newton's laws
21:32:13 <oerjan> shachaf: well if you _want_ to use it up already...
21:32:38 <shachaf> `run for f in wisdom/*; do sed -i s/dal/dahl/g "$f"; done
21:33:18 <oerjan> how _does_ one refrain from swatting with an extra space prepended again.
21:35:10 * oerjan refuses to believe shachaf is that absent-minded.
21:35:25 <shachaf> The space was on purpose, of course.
21:35:32 <shachaf> I just am not managing to parse your sentence.
21:36:47 <oerjan> (how does one refraing (from (swatting (with ((an extra space) prepended)))) again.
21:37:39 <shachaf> ｀run for f in wisdom/*; do sed -i s/dal/dahl/g "$f"; done
21:37:50 -!- DHeadshot has joined.
21:37:54 <oerjan> (how does one refraing (from swatting) (with ((an extra space) prepended))) again). also works.
21:38:48 <oerjan> it's really bad that you don't get it. i may have to refrain from swatting you for it.
21:39:56 <HackEgo> Your evil overlord oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also a lying Norwegian.
21:41:06 <shachaf> `run sed -i 's/$/ And hates Roald Dahl./' wisdom/oerjan
21:41:36 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
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21:41:57 <oerjan> <shachaf> WEST and EEST <-- eesti vabarik
21:42:31 <oerjan> shachaf: hey i'm supposed to be the one lying here
21:43:25 <shachaf> `run sed -i 's/\. And/ who/' wisdom/oerjan
21:43:46 -!- augur has joined.
21:44:14 <HackEgo> Your evil overlord oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also a lying Norwegian who hates Roald Dahl.
21:44:47 <zzo38> I am thinking of some programming language similar to Lisp using () and so on, as well as {} for quotationed blocks and [] for an alternate syntax and so on, but the program includes the commands to change the program to become the answer, and then it is further compiled into an assembly language, which might also have its own macros, too.
21:44:48 * oerjan invites a giant (not BFG) to shachaf's home
21:45:23 <zzo38> Is your home big enough for any giant?
21:45:46 <oerjan> zzo38: the giant doesn't need to enter
21:46:23 <zzo38> oerjan: O, OK. If you just need to throw stuff in the chimney then it is OK
21:46:40 <shachaf> zzo38: No, the giant reaches in the window and takes you out and eats you.
21:46:48 <oerjan> zzo38: i think you may not be familiar with the roald dahl type of giant.
21:46:59 <shachaf> oerjan: In Hebrew the BFG was called the Ig.
21:47:27 <zzo38> shachaf: O, well, then their hand has to fit in the window, and it has to be open unless you want the window also broken...
21:48:42 <GOMADWarrior> If reality is a simulation, are we players or NPCs
21:48:42 <zzo38> Yes, also if you don't care if it is broken or not.
21:48:59 <oerjan> shachaf: well they're pretty big on not leaving conclusive evidence...
21:49:00 <zzo38> GOMADWarrior: That is the question. Nobody knows.
21:49:24 <oerjan> GOMADWarrior: some of each.
21:49:26 <shachaf> oerjan: well they're pretty big on everything
21:50:02 <oerjan> shachaf: which thatsthejoke link do you prefer hth
21:50:58 <shachaf> oerjan: what if the joke is that i was explaining the joke
21:52:37 <oerjan> shachaf: then i link http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DontExplainTheJoke and who wants that?
21:53:02 <shachaf> um explaining the joke is a time honoured tradition
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22:02:42 <oerjan> <elliott> and fix the irc rfc to allow more chars <-- um HackEgo cuts off _far_ shorter than irc demands iirc
22:04:00 <HackEgo> 1y \ 2y \ 3y \ 4y \ 5y \ 6y \ 7y \ 8y \ 9y \ 10y \ 11y \ 12y \ 13y \ 14y \ 15y \ 16y \ 17y \ 18y \ 19y \ 20y \ 21y \ 22y \ 23y \ 24y \ 25y \ 26y \ 27y \ 28y \ 29y \ 30y \ 31y \ 32
22:04:16 <oerjan> who the heck wants tabs
22:05:12 <oerjan> `run ghc -e 'cycle ['0'..'9']'
22:05:19 <HackEgo> [0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,0,1,2,
22:05:57 <oerjan> that is not how you print String, HackEgo
22:06:18 <Bike> > cycle ['0'..'9']
22:06:19 <lambdabot> "01234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123...
22:06:28 <Bike> how mysterious..
22:06:44 <nooodl> `run ghc -e "cycle ['0'..'9']"
22:06:44 <oerjan> `run ghc -e "cycle ['0'..'9']"
22:06:49 <HackEgo> "0123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345
22:06:49 <HackEgo> "0123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345
22:07:41 <Bike> oh my god, operator precedence
22:08:01 <nooodl> > length "\"0123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345"
22:09:13 <oerjan> Bike: i hope you're not referring to anything done above
22:09:31 <Bike> hope is a good thing to have
22:10:36 <HackEgo> /usr/bin/yes: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked (uses shared libs), for GNU/Linux 2.6.18, stripped
22:11:27 <HackEgo> -rwxr-xr-x 1 0 0 27456 Apr 28 2010 /usr/bin/yes
22:11:35 <oerjan> 16:03:09: <Sgeo> Is putting large chunks of butter on my bagels a bad idea?
22:11:35 <oerjan> 16:03:53: <ThatOtherPerson> Define "large"
22:11:35 <oerjan> 16:04:04: <Taneb> THEY CRUSH THE BAGEL
22:11:48 <oerjan> don't use butter straight out of the fridge hth
22:11:53 <shachaf> I have a 408 byte yes but I didn't really spend any time making it small, other than writing it with no libc etc.
22:12:18 <Phantom_Hoover> ok i think i am now legitimately scared by gangnam style
22:12:28 <oerjan> @tell Taneb <Taneb> THEY CRUSH THE BAGEL <-- don't use butter straight out of the fridge hth
22:12:54 <Sgeo> The butter is in a tub of butter that people take out with a knife
22:13:02 <Sgeo> Alongside cream cheese and other stuff
22:14:02 <Sgeo> Um. People don't start eating the bagels before they use it
22:14:31 <Phantom_Hoover> why would you keep your cheese and butter in the same tub do you not have two tubs what is wrong with you
22:14:45 <oerjan> you don't want to think about what impolite people do.
22:15:22 <Sgeo> There are separate tubs that are next to each other.
22:16:17 <Sgeo> Butter is free, cream cheese is not. I think cashier thinks I'm trying to cheat... she keeps asking if it's cream cheese and I say butter
22:16:50 <oerjan> i scream you scream cheese
22:24:37 -!- dysoco has joined.
22:29:40 <Jafet> `run echo -e '\x7fELF\x02\x01\x01\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\x02\0>\0\x01\0\0\0x\0@\0\0\0\0\0@\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\xb0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0@\08\0\x01\0@\0\x03\0\x02\0\x01\0\0\0\x05\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0@\0\0\0\0\0\0\0@\0\0\0\0\0\x9a\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\x9a\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0 \0\0\0\0\0H\xc7\xc7\x01\0\0\0H\xc7\xc6\x98\0@\0H\xc7\xc2\x02\0\0\0H\xc7\xc0\x01\0\0\0\x0f\x05\xeb\xf5y' > bin/y && chmod +x bin/y
22:29:53 <HackEgo> y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y
22:31:10 <Jafet> inb4 kmc "too many badchars"
22:31:24 -!- hagb4rd has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
22:31:43 <Bike> is that a muppetlabs program
22:32:10 -!- DH____ has joined.
22:32:14 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:32:21 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:36:59 <Jafet> Also why are amd64 instructions so long
22:37:26 <Jafet> They added way too many registers
22:42:57 <olsner> in this case they're long because someone failed to use shorter equivalent instructions
22:43:46 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access y: No such file or directory
22:43:47 -!- augur has joined.
22:43:54 <HackEgo> -rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 0 154 Apr 13 22:29 bin/y
22:44:18 <HackEgo> y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y
22:48:31 <kmc> hm Olivia Colman was in Look Around You as well
22:48:37 <kmc> there are only like 12 british actors aren't there
22:52:30 <Phantom_Hoover> well there are serious ones as well but they mostly just do soaps
22:53:15 <Phantom_Hoover> also there are actrs but they just perform on stage and hollywood films
22:55:17 <Sgeo> At least one British actor I know of did stuff in a TV show after doing stuff in a Hollywood film
22:55:38 <Sgeo> Oh, he's Scottish
22:56:54 <Sgeo> Ok, so he is British.
22:57:16 <nooodl> i keep forgetting the venn diagram
22:58:16 <nooodl> Sgeo: let me guess. david tennant
22:58:33 <HackEgo> cat: bin\y: No such file or directory
22:58:43 <nooodl> "the only scottish actor"
22:59:22 <oerjan> even Phantom_Hoover doesn't include sean connery, i see
22:59:31 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
23:01:07 <oerjan> "Sean Connery has a villa in Kranidi, Greece. His neighbour is the Dutch crown-prince with whom he shares a helicopter platform."
23:01:39 <Phantom_Hoover> there's a real sense of community in illionaire villas
23:01:48 <oerjan> "Connery swore never to return to live in Scotland unless it becomes an independent state,."
23:02:21 <oerjan> there's something about that too
23:03:14 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlEFfyf79DM
23:03:27 <Sgeo> (Harry Potter book 4 spoilers)
23:03:27 <olsner> perhaps he simply assumed scotland would never become independent
23:03:33 <Phantom_Hoover> i see the great british venn diagram's accompanying article doesn't mention that 'scotch' is The Wrong Demonym
23:03:47 <olsner> Sgeo: is that the one where dumbledore dies?
23:04:26 <oerjan> olsner: he supports the scottish national party. although he's no longer allowed to give them money because they passed a law against foreign contributions.
23:05:43 <Bike> oh, hey, it's david tennant.
23:08:47 <kmc> there should also be a venn diagram for New York City, Manhattan (borough), Manhattan (island), Long Island, Brooklyn, Queens, etc
23:10:00 <olsner> the difference between those seems pretty unimportant
23:10:16 <kmc> MAYBE SCOTLAND IS ALSO UNIMPORTANT
23:10:52 <kmc> it's confusing when people use "Long Island" to mean "the parts of Long Island that aren't in NYC"
23:11:14 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc, well was manhattan ever INVADED BY BROOKLYN AND REPRESSED
23:11:31 <kmc> the differences between Manhattan the island and the political entity are more trivia than important
23:11:46 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: insert joke about hipsters
23:13:07 <kmc> also Ellis Island is split between new jersey and new york in some kind of complicated arrangement
23:13:44 <elliott> kmc: btw guess who said this (i saw it and thought of you)
23:13:48 <Bike> through a complicated legal loophole, coney island turns out to still be owned by the royal dutch
23:13:50 <elliott> "One advantage startups have over established companies is that there are no discrimination laws about starting businesses. For example, I would be reluctant to start a startup with a woman who had small children, or was likely to have them soon.
23:13:54 <elliott> But you're not allowed to ask prospective employees if they plan to have kids soon. Believe it or not, under current US law, you're not even allowed to discriminate on the basis of intelligence.
23:13:58 <elliott> Whereas when you're starting a company, you can discriminate on any basis you want about who you start it with."
23:14:01 <elliott> (note: this challenge is easy)
23:14:10 <kmc> elliott: Some Asshole
23:14:14 <Bike> believe it or not,
23:14:22 <elliott> http://www.paulgraham.com/start.html
23:14:27 <kmc> i didn't think he was quite like that
23:14:32 <kmc> my guess was peter thiel
23:14:38 <Bike> peace be upon fuck that guy
23:14:40 <elliott> not sure esr is quite a "startup guy"
23:15:00 <kmc> it's not clear without context that pg is saying this is a good thing, but he probably is
23:15:09 <Bike> people talked about paul graham in #lisp again today. i'm so glad i have the ability to zone out
23:15:17 <elliott> Like most startups, ours began with a group of friends, and it was through personal contacts that we got most of the people we hired. This is a crucial difference between startups and big companies. Being friends with someone for even a couple days will tell you more than companies could ever learn in interviews. [2]
23:15:31 <elliott> and the whole article is about startups being great obviously
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23:15:45 <kmc> that's a p. cool way for a bunch of college educated white guys to hire a bunch of other white guys who went to the same college
23:16:19 <Bike> i'm gonna go see what he thinks of affirmative action, wish me luck
23:16:55 <kmc> also "you're not even allowed to discriminate on the basis of intelligence" is a big fucking [citation needed]
23:17:16 <Bike> hm, no mention of "affirmative" or "action", thank god
23:17:21 <kmc> i would believe that discriminating against certain kinds of cognitive disabilities could get you in trouble
23:17:22 <Phantom_Hoover> please tell me he's not conflating 'intelligence' with IQ
23:17:57 <Bike> whatever he means it's dumb, so
23:18:11 <Sgeo> I had a mutual friend with the guy who hired me. It makes me feel awkward that that sort of thing is important
23:18:12 <Bike> « "Did Discrimination Enhance Intelligence of Jews?". National Geographic News.» why did i google this
23:18:35 <Bike> if it makes you feel better that's pretty universal, sgeo
23:18:50 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: hard to equate "intelligence" with anything meaningful
23:19:01 <elliott> i'm pretty sure it doesn't actually mean anything
23:19:24 <Bike> human universals are pretty lol in general but "people like people people like" and "people are more likely to want to perform activities with someone they like" probably are
23:19:38 -!- carado has joined.
23:19:41 * kmc feels remaining respect for Paul Graham vanish
23:20:06 <Bike> uh excuse you phantom he wrote a /webstore/
23:20:24 <elliott> i like how he is sort of a lisp pariah
23:20:29 <elliott> because nobody likes his book
23:20:47 <olsner> he wrote a book? what is it about?
23:21:02 <kmc> elliott: actually i left my startup job just last week
23:21:04 <Bike> he wrote ANSI Common Lisp which is a pretty... something, intro to programming in CL
23:21:20 <kmc> he wrote On Lisp
23:21:29 <ion> This is your brain on Lisp
23:21:31 <Bike> whatever it's called
23:21:33 <kmc> which is kind of insane
23:21:34 <Sgeo> Why do all the big CL authors do things that the community recommends against
23:21:48 <kmc> he uses macros for /everything/
23:21:54 <kmc> want to map a function over a list? WHY NOT A MACRO?
23:21:59 <Sgeo> Lambda Over Lisp hates earmuffs, there are some quabbles about PG's stuff in On Lisp (not sure what)
23:22:08 <elliott> kmc: unless you left it because you found a better job
23:22:10 <olsner> Sgeo: the lisp community might just be crazy and not make good recommendations
23:22:11 <Sgeo> erm, Let over Lambda
23:22:23 <Sgeo> earmuffs are a good recommendation, I think.
23:22:29 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
23:22:38 <Bike> Sgeo: http://www.cs.northwestern.edu/academics/courses/325/readings/graham/graham-notes.html if you want to see it in mind numbing detail
23:23:19 <Bike> but i don't think xach or gigamonkeys write particularly insane code, i dunno
23:23:54 * Sgeo only had PG and LoL in mind
23:24:21 <Bike> i haven't read lol. reading is for squares
23:24:24 <kmc> elliott: not yet
23:24:30 <kmc> but I wasn't particularly enjoying my old job
23:24:54 <elliott> are you telling me rewriting irc as a web app isn't exciting
23:24:58 <elliott> ok i shouldn't be a jerk about this
23:24:58 <kmc> there were a few things that were really annoying (like, one of my coworkers) and the rest of it was fine, but nothing super awesome to keep me going through the annoyances
23:24:59 -!- hagb4rd has joined.
23:25:32 <elliott> i sure hate $kmcs_coworker, they are the worst
23:25:49 <kmc> if given the opportunity to work with someone you know is annoying because they might have changed: they haven't and you shouldn't
23:26:29 <kmc> it sucks because i really liked the rest of the people
23:26:35 <kmc> that was the main reason I was interested in working there
23:26:41 <Bike> what was the problem with this person?
23:26:44 <Bike> just general annoyingness?
23:27:51 <Bike> uh are you implying something
23:27:55 <Bike> something... bikist
23:28:06 <olsner> hmm, sounds like the annoying one should've been the one to leave rather than you
23:28:19 <olsner> but that's their problem now :)
23:29:28 <kmc> he's the annoying one but i'm the one who had trouble dealing with it, while he remained cheerful and productive through being annoying
23:30:57 <kmc> Bike: if you have an association with the word "froshy" then it probably describes this person
23:31:25 <kmc> someone who thinks they're hot shit because they were the smartest person around in high school, and who dropped out after one year of college at a mediocre school
23:31:37 <kmc> and yet actually doesn't produce very good code
23:33:10 <kmc> and communicates poorly
23:35:17 <oerjan> <Bike> « "Did Discrimination Enhance Intelligence of Jews?". National Geographic News.» why did i google this <-- i've heard that theory before and it actually seemed plausible.
23:35:42 <Bike> http://www.amazon.com/review/RN9XMF3CS1YPS nice
23:35:54 <Bike> oerjan: it sounds very evopsychy
23:35:56 <kmc> it certainly had a huge effect on cultural values, if not biology
23:36:30 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, not hard to come up with a theory that seems plausible
23:37:40 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
23:42:02 <oerjan> Bike: well racism and eugenics aside (am i being stereotypical?) you wouldn't expect psychology to be _unaffected_ by evolution caused by selection.
23:43:11 <Bike> of course not, but evolutionary psychology has a long history of being made-up racist shit, so i'm strongly inclined to dismiss it, unfortunately
23:43:13 <oerjan> but i guess there's still that nature/nurture questino.
23:47:13 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, that's all true but that doesn't mean 'property x is caused by evolutionary factor y' is actually /correct/
23:47:33 <kmc> yeah, presumably some evo psych theories are actually correct, but it's just way too easy to come up with one to justify whatever crazy bullshit you like
23:47:36 <kmc> and way too hard to test them
23:48:03 -!- itsy has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:48:19 <Phantom_Hoover> the classic example is the assignent of pink to females; you can say it's because berries are red and hunter gatherers and all that, and it sounds plausible
23:48:33 <Phantom_Hoover> except a century or so ago pink was a masculine colour and so it all goes to shit
23:49:13 <Bike> oh if we're hating on evopsych now i want to mention http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satoshi_Kanazawa
23:49:24 <Bike> did you know you can actually be fired from psychology today? weird huh
23:49:27 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: actually the "pink was a masculine colour" is itself a myth hth
23:49:34 <Phantom_Hoover> "Kanazawa has been very controversial, which he attributes to what he considers political correctness."
23:49:37 <kmc> I DON'T KNOW WHAT TO BELIEVE
23:49:55 <elliott> guys why the lucky stiff updated his site again!!!!!!
23:50:02 <elliott> http://www.gironda.org/pcl/SOLICIT.png
23:50:02 <Bike> cite [5] there by other evolutionary psychologists (i.e. ones that aren't racists) is pretty great and worth a read
23:50:17 <elliott> also he's into ocaml now??? http://www.scribd.com/doc/135658986/-why-Homework
23:50:24 <oerjan> (am i violating that list linked in the logs every time i say "actually"?)
23:50:24 <elliott> MORE: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5541880
23:50:30 <kmc> elliott: what is this
23:50:39 <elliott> kmc: why the lucky stiff's website came back up a few months
23:50:46 <elliott> http://whytheluckystiff.net/
23:50:56 <elliott> its contents have been changing since
23:51:04 <elliott> but they changed a bit to start with
23:51:14 <elliott> (last picture before these: http://www.scribd.com/doc/135635255/desolee)
23:52:29 <Jafet> `run echo -e '\x7fELF\x02\x01\x01\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\x02\0>\0\x01\0\0\0x\0@\0\0\0\0\0@\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\xc8\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0@\08\0\x01\0@\0\x03\0\x02\0\x01\0\0\0\x05\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0@\0\0\0\0\0\0\0@\0\0\0\0\0\xb6\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\xb6\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0 \0\0\0\0\0H\xc7\xc7\x01\0\0\0H\x8bt$\x10H\x85\xf6u\x0dH\xc7\xc6\xb4\0@\0H\x8dW\x01\xeb\x17H\x89\xf2\xeb\x03H\xff\xc2\x8a\x0a\x84\xc9u\xf7\xc6\x02\x0aH\xff\xc2H)\xf2H\x89\xf8\x0f\x05\xeb\xf9y\x0a' > b
23:52:43 <Jafet> `run chmod +x bin/y && y yyy
23:52:45 <HackEgo> y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y
23:52:54 <kmc> hacked by Jafet
23:53:09 <elliott> this channel was so much better when cpressey was in it
23:53:09 -!- Jafet has left.
23:53:12 <elliott> now nobody appreciates why!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
23:53:13 -!- Jafet has joined.
23:53:27 <Phantom_Hoover> 4od doesn't have the armando ianucci shows ALL IS DARKNESS ALL IS DEATH
23:53:34 <kmc> `run echo 'const unsigned long main[] = { 0xc7e68948c7ffff31, 0x24310f00b195e206, 0xd231f88902460001, 0xe9eb050f03b2 };' > maze.c && gcc -nostdlib -o maze maze.c && ./maze
23:53:40 <HackEgo> /usr/bin/ld: warning: cannot find entry symbol _start; defaulting to 000000000040010c \ bash: line 1: 292 Segmentation fault ./maze
23:53:41 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: :(
23:53:46 <Jafet> `run mv bin/{y,yyy} && yyy
23:53:47 <kmc> what's 4od
23:53:49 <HackEgo> y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y
23:53:58 <kmc> also Veep starts up again tomorrow
23:54:01 <Jafet> This machine must have different stack layout
23:54:10 <kmc> Jafet: what does your thing do?
23:54:18 <Phantom_Hoover> we have a different one for every channel because of socialism i guess
23:54:20 <elliott> relevant cpressey on the github account the site is hosted on: https://github.com/cwales/cwales.github.com/issues/1
23:54:24 <HackEgo> y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y
23:54:26 <kmc> HackEgo is User Mode Linux which is all crazy
23:54:41 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: you don't need to kill you just need to get a VPS with an american IP address
23:54:52 <kmc> maybe EC2 is good enough, you can get a free EC2 instance for a year
23:54:55 <oerjan> Jafet: your initial command got cut off at the b
23:55:16 <oerjan> `run mv b bin/y && chmod +x bin/y
23:55:26 <HackEgo> yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yy
23:56:24 <kmc> `run which gccrun
23:56:41 <kmc> `run curl -o bin/gccrun http://web.mit.edu/snippets/programming/gccrun && chmod +x bin/gccrun
23:56:58 <kmc> `gccrun printf("Hello, world!\n");
23:57:00 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/gccrun: line 1: syntax error near unexpected token `<' \ /hackenv/bin/gccrun: line 1: `<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd"> <html><head> <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"> <title>ERROR: The requested URL could not be retrieved</title> <style type=
23:58:05 <kmc> `run rm bin/gccrun && cd bin && wget http://web.mit.edu/snippets/programming/gccrun && chmod +x gccrun && head -n 2 gccrun
23:58:08 <HackEgo> --2013-04-13 23:58:08-- http://web.mit.edu/snippets/programming/gccrun \ Connecting to 127.0.0.1:3128... connected. \ Proxy request sent, awaiting response... 403 Forbidden \ 2013-04-13 23:58:08 ERROR 403: Forbidden.
23:58:16 <Bike> i believe in you kmc
23:58:30 <kmc> what's the best way to 'upload' a file to HackEgo? do I put it on a pastebin?
23:58:56 <oerjan> kmc: or on your own website.
23:59:34 <kmc> `fetch https://gist.github.com/kmcallister/72c5551e69d1a14c3474/raw/780fb50ae5d169edaf221d360e443e35d21814ca/gccrun
23:59:36 <HackEgo> 2013-04-13 23:59:36 URL:https://gist.github.com/kmcallister/72c5551e69d1a14c3474/raw/780fb50ae5d169edaf221d360e443e35d21814ca/gccrun [764] -> "gccrun" [1]
23:59:45 <ion> `run cat bin/fetch
23:59:47 <HackEgo> cat: bin/fetch: No such file or directory
23:59:48 <oerjan> `fetch is outside the sandbox, so it isn't affected by the http whitelist.
23:59:49 <kmc> `run mv gccrun bin/ && chmod +x bin/gccrun
23:59:55 <ion> `run type fetch
23:59:56 <HackEgo> bash: line 0: type: fetch: not found
23:59:58 <kmc> `gccrun printf("Hello, world!\n");