00:07:04 <ion> MSG is one of my favorite seasonings.
00:10:04 <PonyPonyPony> There are too many variables in making curry for me to make any real comments on whether it improved things *shrugs*
00:15:17 <doesthiswork> I think it would be nice to be able take a function you'd made and make a variation of it where "floor" was replaced by "ceiling" without having to modify the text of the first functions
00:16:06 <Bike> have you considered search/replace
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00:18:15 <doesthiswork> making the replacements is no problem, it just so happens that many times i find myself trying out small variations on previous functions, and it'd be nice to just specify the changes without making the original function more complicated.
00:18:39 <Jafet> where floor = ceiling
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00:21:17 <Koen_> doesthiswork: well you could put the functions you use as arguments
00:21:49 <doesthiswork> koen_: yes, that is the responsible thing to do
00:22:06 <oerjan> 1 = 0 isn't effective haskell
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00:22:44 <Bike> psh responsible
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00:23:45 <doesthiswork> There is something attractive about starting with a concrete example and then ad-hocly parameterizing it
00:24:21 <oerjan> elliott: the spammers seem to be about to fill the recent changes with registrations only :P
00:25:29 <lambdabot> (Integral b, RealFrac a) => a -> b
00:25:39 <lambdabot> class (Real a, Fractional a) => RealFrac a where
00:25:39 <lambdabot> properFraction :: (Integral b) => a -> (b,a)
00:25:39 <lambdabot> truncate, round, ceiling, floor :: (Integral b) => a -> b
00:26:21 <oerjan> doesthiswork: just make a newtype swapping ceiling and floor methods hth
00:26:35 <oerjan> (this doesn't really help)
00:27:10 <Jafet> Is making wiki accounts turing complete
00:30:25 <HackEgo> oerjan: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
00:38:13 <kmc> doesthiswork: that sounds like sort of a fit for implicit arguments
00:38:27 <kmc> GHC for example supports those
00:38:54 <kmc> :t let f x y = ?toInt ((x + y) / 2) in nf
00:38:55 <lambdabot> `f' (line 1), `f' (imported from Debug.SimpleReflect),
00:38:56 <kmc> :t let f x y = ?toInt ((x + y) / 2) in f
00:38:57 <lambdabot> (?toInt::a -> t, Fractional a) => a -> a -> t
00:39:23 <kmc> you would call this like «let ?toInt = ceiling in f 4 7»
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00:39:37 <kmc> and you can have an outer 'default' value and shadow it locally
00:40:55 <Bike> is it just any identifier with an initial question mark
00:41:21 <doesthiswork> that syntax is light enough that I wouldn't mind it
00:41:28 <Bike> :t ?hapax_legomenon
00:42:33 <kmc> type class constraints themselves are sort of like implicit parameters
00:43:06 <Bike> so you can locally override these things? is it like, dynamically scoped
00:43:07 <kmc> the key difference is that you can only have one instance for a given type and class, globally, while these implicit parameters can be shadowed locally
00:43:18 <kmc> yeah, it's essentially an implementation of dynamic scope in Haskell
00:43:59 <shachaf> I,I instance (?foo :: Int) => ... where
00:44:39 <kmc> locally overriding a type class instance would be super useful as well
00:44:47 <kmc> but presents some difficulties with the way type classes are used today
00:45:00 <shachaf> I wish I knew a good way to make that work. :-(
00:45:13 <kmc> the code for «union :: (Ord k) => Map k v -> Map k v -> Map k v» is allowed to assume that the two maps were constructed wrt the same ordering
00:45:56 <shachaf> There is always "reflection", though.
00:46:19 <kmc> there's a paper somewhere on unifying type classes and implicit params, but afaik they just have a keyword to say if local shadowing is allowed or not
00:46:25 <kmc> so you still have to make this tradeoff
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00:56:06 <Bike> "GOMADWarrior: we're not #transhumanism" /ignore is great
00:57:47 <kmc> who are they trolling now
00:58:01 <shachaf> And also whatever channel Bike is in.
00:58:05 <Bike> oh are they there too
00:58:08 <Bike> 00:53:05 <GOMADWarrior> what if it was possible to upload knowledge directly to the brain
00:58:19 <Bike> imagine there's no heaven, it's easy if you try
00:58:30 <kmc> imagine there's no GOMADWarrior, it's easy if you /ignore
00:59:26 <Bike> fine, be reasonable
00:59:27 <oerjan> that GOMADWarrior guy is quite clever, managing to troll us by proxy even when he's banned.
00:59:44 <Fiora> bike how terrible a job am I doing at talking lisp things
00:59:57 <Bike> you're doing pretty fine
01:00:07 <Bike> especially since "lisp things" means "x86 instruction coding"
01:00:27 <oerjan> Fiora: (you (need) ((more (parentheses ()))))
01:01:19 <Bike> the worst programming jokes
01:01:36 <Fiora> I feel like I'm not really good enough for this stuff though -_-
01:02:48 <shachaf> but you always seem to feel that way
01:02:59 <shachaf> clearly you can't trust your sense of being good enough
01:03:01 <Bike> i think the main problem you could have would be unfamiliarity with the codebase
01:03:11 <Bike> like you probably don't have any idea what stassats meant by "inheritance" there
01:03:14 <Fiora> could that be because it's always true
01:03:15 <Bike> also what shachaf said.
01:03:34 <shachaf> you just have a badly-calibrated sensor
01:03:45 * Sgeo 's girlfriend was inducted into an honor society
01:03:54 <Sgeo> I just looked through my old mail, and I was invited last year
01:04:28 <Sgeo> Sigma Beta Delta, is that good?
01:05:29 <Bike> I don't actually know how to judge honor socieites.
01:05:46 <shachaf> Bike: The main thing is whether you know the Greek letters here, I think.
01:06:01 <shachaf> As in, would recognize them, be able to write them.
01:06:15 <oerjan> wait, are those greek letter designations globally unique at all?
01:07:04 <oerjan> (sigma beta delta doesn't have a wikipedia page, fwiw)
01:07:17 <Bike> oerjan: I think they usually are. I mean there's like 27³ of them or w/e.
01:08:24 <oerjan> Honor society has the one line "Sigma Beta Delta, ΣΒΔ (business programs at schools that have regional accreditation, but not specialized accreditation in business)"
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01:15:31 <Bike> doesthiswork: the wikipedia article on cognitive linguistics is weird.
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01:20:53 <doesthiswork> I joined #esoteric because I liked weird things, could you point out the especially weird pats of the article so I can appreciate them?
01:23:26 <Bike> it's a "cognitive" theory that's pretty anti-cognitivist from what i can tell
01:23:36 <Bike> and the Controversy section is just vague
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03:05:37 <HackEgo> 507) <Phantom_Hoover> Yeah, Bashir, just sit there drinking, rather than diagnosing the carpenter mauled in that tragic bonobo accident.
03:05:48 <HackEgo> 143) <oerjan> it's not obvious from quantum mechanics that you can destroy a universe arbitrarily.
03:05:55 <HackEgo> 788) <zzo38> Sleep on the ceiling next Sunday.
03:06:08 <matteu> Bashir? As in DS9 Bashir?
03:06:25 <oerjan> kmc: IT TAKES ADDITIONAL GENIUS
03:06:37 <Bike> isn't Bashir like the most common Arabic name
03:06:44 <Bike> well, besides Mohammad probably
03:07:42 <oerjan> ali and achmed come to mind a lot earlier
03:10:03 <oerjan> not that this tells anything about wtf phantom_hoover was referring
03:10:26 <oerjan> but i somehow doubt DS9 had any bonobo accidents.
03:10:27 <matteu> DS9 Bashir was a medical professional.
03:10:50 <oerjan> matteu: did he have a drinking problem?
03:11:21 <oerjan> `pastlog addquote.*bashir
03:11:31 <matteu> I'm too tired to start meandering through memory alpha
03:12:00 <oerjan> `pastlog addquote.*bashir
03:12:56 <oerjan> `pastelogs yeah, bashir
03:14:14 <HackEgo> 508) <CakeProphet> monqy: help how do I use lambdabot to send messages to people. [...around half an hour later...] <CakeProphet> @messages <lambdabot> quicksilver said 1y 2m 18d 19h 54m 29s ago: you use @tell
03:14:31 <oerjan> matteu: it's case insensitive
03:15:00 <oerjan> `pastelogs monqy: help how do I use lambdabot
03:15:25 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.21140
03:16:56 <oerjan> 22:07:02: <elliott> `addquote <Phantom_Hoover> Yeah, Bashir, just sit there drinking, rather than diagnosing the carpenter mauled in that tragic bonobo accident.
03:17:10 <oerjan> HackEgo: YOU ARE DISAPPOINTING ME
03:17:57 <oerjan> `pastlog addquote .*bashir
03:18:04 <HackEgo> 2011-08-26.txt:22:07:02: <elliott> `addquote <Phantom_Hoover> Yeah, Bashir, just sit there drinking, rather than diagnosing the carpenter mauled in that tragic bonobo accident.
03:18:22 <kmc> `pastalogs
03:18:23 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: pastalogs: not found
03:19:02 <oerjan> `pastelogs yeah, bashir
03:19:15 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.1592
03:19:41 <oerjan> he must have said it somewhere else
03:20:20 <oerjan> 22:07:12: <elliott> DS9 is a weird show.
03:20:37 <oerjan> matteu: ok that comment just after the `addquote at least implies it's probably DS9
03:21:14 <oerjan> `run pastaquote #For kmc
03:21:15 <HackEgo> 988) <Sgeo> I think pastaquote should just quote me
03:30:52 <HackEgo> 52) <Sgeo> What else is there to vim besides editing commands? \ 66) <Sgeo|web> Where's the link to the log? <lament> THERE'S NO LOG. YOUR REQUEST IS SUSPICIOUS AND HAS BEEN LOGGED. \ 98) <pikhq> And... WTF is it doing. <pikhq> :( <Sgeo_> Is it sexing? \ 107) <coppro> what's the data of? [...] <Sgeo> Locations in a now deceased game called Mutat
03:50:52 <kmc> void *call_cc(void *(*)(void (*)(void *) __attribute__((noreturn))));
03:51:27 <lambdabot> Bike: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
03:51:49 <Bike> ask doesthiswork am i on candid camera
03:51:51 <Bike> @ask doesthiswork am i on candid camera
03:52:13 <kmc> declare call_cc as function (pointer to function (pointer to function (pointer to void) returning void) returning pointer to void) returning pointer to void
03:52:15 <lambdabot> doesthiswork: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
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03:53:21 <Bike> kmc i said "nope.:
03:53:33 <kmc> you've seen it; you can't un-see it.
03:54:08 <Bike> what if i call/cc'd to before i saw it. what then
03:54:16 <Bike> my continuations are undelimited motherfucker
03:55:01 <kmc> Bike: have you seen the film Primer?
03:55:15 <kmc> they have a time machine that works like call/cc
03:56:02 <Bike> but does it have dynamic-wind
03:56:57 <kmc> he that troubleth his own house shall inherit the dynamic-wind
03:57:38 <kmc> "It turns out the solution to the medical records problem is not that no one has thought of using Redis"
03:58:30 <HackEgo> olist: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly
03:59:36 <zzo38> I am also writing some prestige class for Dungeons&Dragons game; some are corresponding to deities (some are available for two deities), so this one is Gxxyuxihuvxi
03:59:43 <zzo38> ifMUD is not working very well today.
04:03:13 <kmc> is that a well-known deity
04:03:16 <kmc> or an ephemeral deity
04:04:10 <kmc> `run ls bin/*list*
04:04:12 <HackEgo> bin/emptylist \ bin/instalist \ bin/list \ bin/listen \ bin/makelist \ bin/mlist \ bin/olist \ bin/pbflist \ bin/pbflistdeluxe \ bin/slist \ bin/smlist \ bin/testlist
04:04:58 <zzo38> It is a lesser-known deity; I have a list of a few
04:05:31 <zzo38> Now are you going to add alist and xlist and zlist and jlist and klist and 1list and 2list as well?
04:05:59 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: freelist: not found
04:06:08 * Sgeo wonders what a Free [] is, if anything
04:06:32 <Bike> i'm pretty sure there should be a list for updates to the list system
04:06:48 <zzo38> Sgeo: It is a kind of data structure; the type (Free []) ican be a single item or a list of (Free []) so it is a kind of tree structure
04:07:41 * Sgeo wasn't particularly thinking about actually thinking about this stuff
04:09:05 <zzo38> Then why do you like to ask such question?
04:09:52 <Sgeo> Because it occured to me after `freelist
04:10:05 <Sgeo> Although actually I did both in the wrong channel at first
04:10:39 <Sgeo> I may be slightly sleep deprived
04:10:56 <kmc> use after `freelist
04:11:19 <kmc> has anyone written a git-like version control system in shell script yet
04:11:23 <kmc> i think it should be pretty easy
04:13:42 <Bike> i saw a wiki in shell once.
04:16:13 <zzo38> Do you think TeX is the most portable programming language? I think it probably is, even in past and future too.
04:17:20 <Bike> C programs probably run on more systems.
04:17:48 <Bike> http://25.media.tumblr.com/b600481f5deb4a180bbad722f881b40f/tumblr_mj9s28psjK1qlh9eeo2_r1_1280.jpg has anyone noticed that polish movie posters are kind of fucked up sometimes
04:17:54 <Bike> even when it's not a polish film?
04:18:01 <zzo38> Yes, although things in C may differ by different computers.
04:20:51 <zzo38> Such as, in C, size of numbers might differ, some things about pointers might differ, it might differ ASCII/EBCDIC, floating point might be different, and other things too.
04:23:40 <zzo38> TeX is the same on all computers, except for the amount of memory available, which still has no effect on working files.
04:26:24 <zzo38> What does "ephemeral deity" mean?
04:27:15 <Bike> A deity that doesn't last long?
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04:57:52 <zzo38> What do you get when you tracert ifmud.port4000.com? I cannot connect to that server at all (the service is on port 4000).
05:00:25 <Bike> it's reachable here.
05:00:53 <Bike> ping: 10 packets transmitted, 10 received, 0% packet loss, time 9014ms
05:01:12 <zzo38> That is strange; it doesn't work here! Do you know why that is?
05:01:31 <zzo38> It worked earlier today!
05:01:44 <Bike> What about ifmud.ziz.org?
05:02:07 <zzo38> It has the same IP address.
05:02:56 <zzo38> Is there a generic proxy service which might be used?
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05:20:17 <Sgeo> TEST QUESTION:....GOOD
05:20:17 <Sgeo> ANSWER: ........BLESS
05:20:32 <Sgeo> What does that even mean as part of payment information?
05:21:05 <Bike> Have you tried praying?
05:21:29 <Sgeo> 'Thank you for your question. In certain countries, you may be required to provide the answer to a test question when picking up your Quick Cash payment. This is an additional step to ensure that your payment is transferred securely. You can find this information by examining your Statement of Earnings found under the 'details' link of the 'Payment issued' line on your Payments page. The answer to the test question will always be the 10-digit
05:21:29 <Sgeo> number labeled 'Customer ID' found in the top right corner of your Statement of Earnings.'
05:22:01 <Sgeo> BLESS is officially a 10-digit number.
05:38:50 <olsner> is that some kind of phishing to get your customer id?
05:39:04 <fizzie> That sounds like it's talking about a particular company's QuickCash payments.
05:39:26 <zzo38> I found a working HTTP CONNECT type proxy to connect there.
05:39:31 <fizzie> A company that uses the "Customer ID" as the answer to the question.
05:40:33 <fizzie> I would think in general it's just an arbitrary challenge/response pair.
05:42:09 <fizzie> Yes, you were quoting from Google's AdSense help page.
05:42:42 <fizzie> (So there's no reason for BLESS to be a 10-digit number.)
05:43:01 <olsner> hmm, the title "Hacking Secret Ciphers with Python" makes it sound like a really dumb book
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05:48:55 <fizzie> Also, my latest Western Union spam uses either TODAY/NOW or When/Now as the Q/A pair.
05:50:03 <fizzie> TODAY/NOW for the $7000 they're going to send (for reals), just as soon as I first send $100 to them with the When/Now quetion.
05:50:52 <fizzie> Oh, $7000 per day, for a total of $1.8 million.
05:50:55 <olsner> I don't understand any of that, maybe I don't read enough spam
05:53:13 <fizzie> "-- but they said that you have to send $165dollar for your transfer permit --" "HERE IS THE INFORMATION FOR YOU TO SEND THE MONEY -- Amount $100 dollar".
05:53:42 <fizzie> But is it $165 or $100! This is all too confusing! There goes my millions, I give up.
05:58:40 <kmc> shachaf: xkcd today is about a security property that i'm always talking about
05:58:52 <kmc> so from now on, whenever i talk about it, i'm making an, 'xkcd reference'
05:59:01 <kmc> isn't it great
05:59:12 <zzo38> What card games can you play?
05:59:15 <shachaf> one day xkcd will talk about how xkcd does things and then they become 'xkcd references'
05:59:19 <shachaf> and then where will kmc be
05:59:31 <Bike> kmc will have been xkcd all along.
06:00:04 <kmc> i am jack's smirking revenge
06:00:16 <shachaf> [obligatory xkcd](http://xkcd.com/1200/)
06:00:46 <Bike> it's pretty great how obligatory links are never obligated, by anybody
06:01:53 <Fiora> kmc: eventually -everything- will become an xkcd reference, as xkcd will expand to fill all possible statements
06:01:55 <kmc> zzo38: i can play Who Can Throw A Card The Furthest
06:02:25 <zzo38> kmc: I suppose it doesn't matter what kinds of cards you use, then
06:02:36 <oklofok> kmc: how far can you throw?
06:02:45 <kmc> oklofok: don't know
06:02:53 <kmc> zzo38: well the size and shape and material properties do matter
06:05:40 <oklofok> why does it matter if you're making an xkcd reference, isn't the point that they learn about the stupidity of the world, not that they learn how great you are at noticing it
06:05:57 <oklofok> or are xkcd references embarrassing even to good xkcd comics
06:06:17 <oklofok> because it's a comic and shouldn't be funny and that comic isn't funny so it fails or something
06:07:15 <oklofok> my sentences are too complicated for me
06:07:26 <oklofok> i will not listen to myself anymore
06:09:48 <Bike> are you all alive?
06:10:21 <shachaf> i can't believe you just did that
06:11:29 <shachaf> i was all, like, "hey Bike want a hug" and stuff
06:12:17 <Bike> you gotta act fast shachaf
06:12:23 <Bike> i'm not just giving these things away they're precious
06:13:17 <shachaf> like, dude, i didn't ask for a hug i offered one
06:13:23 <shachaf> well actually i just asked if you want one
06:13:30 <shachaf> ok let's forget about the whole deal
06:13:32 * pikhq_ steals a hug from Bike
06:13:57 <Fiora> bike I hope you don't dislike my hugs
06:14:47 <shachaf> should i play "Fiora's self-doubt"
06:15:12 <Bike> there's no way to win.
06:15:33 <augur> a serious, #esoteric question
06:15:56 <shachaf> Bike: no it's not a normal #esoteric person it's augur
06:16:03 <Bike> I like augurs.
06:16:06 <shachaf> he just tries to waste your time with linguistics questions and other augur nonsense
06:16:19 <augur> im writing a paper. in it i have a quote that includes a citation. should i include an entry in my own bibliography for that citation or not?
06:16:41 <pikhq_> Mi malŝat' lingvantojn!
06:17:19 <Fiora> Bike: wait you don't like them or you do <_>
06:17:29 <Bike> I don't dislike them, I said.
06:18:04 <shachaf> Fiora: Bike likes your hugs don't worry ... .....
06:18:31 <shachaf> except by hugs i mean the piece of text that goes "* Fiora hugs Bike"
06:18:40 <shachaf> because you can't give those on the internet
06:19:17 <augur> fiora is the name of one of the main characters from max headroom
06:19:29 <augur> if it were spoken by an urban yoof
06:19:41 <Fiora> it's also the name of a fire emblem character >_<
06:21:21 <augur> im just making connections
06:22:12 <shachaf> augur: have you considered going away
06:22:41 <augur> shachaf: have you considered comiting suicide?
06:22:54 <augur> it would certainly improve your attitude.
06:23:07 <Bike> Not cool, bro.
06:23:24 <shachaf> You've suggested it to me before.
06:23:28 -!- shachaf has left.
06:23:46 <augur> shachaf has an irrational dislike for me and harasses me any time we're in the same channel together for no apparent reason.
06:24:04 <Bike> Don't tell people to kill themselves, ever.
06:24:12 <augur> no clue why. one day he just decided to start badmouthing me.
06:25:13 <pikhq_> At first I thought it was just a joke, but um. what/
06:25:24 <pikhq_> I've always liked having you around.
06:25:38 <augur> i like being around.
06:25:46 <Fiora> um. maybe have you like. considered not telling people to kill themselves
06:25:48 <augur> i dont, however, like being harassed by shitbags like shachaf for no reason.
06:26:25 <augur> i dont even have to be talking and he'll start bad mouthing me for being a linguist
06:26:49 <augur> and not in the tongue in cheek kind of way but in the malicious "a linguist fucked my girlfriend" kind of way.
06:28:26 <augur> thats all i get from that asshole, and we dont even ever talk. so fuck him.
06:29:25 <pikhq_> Have you considered /ignore?
06:30:26 <augur> that would just let him badmouth me unimpinged.
06:31:21 <augur> unimpinged? unimpeded? whatever work i intended, anyway.
06:31:48 * pikhq_ raises a finger to Youtube
06:32:04 <augur> i dont know what that even means :(
06:32:27 <pikhq_> Fucking Youtube. Keeps dropping connection on me.
06:33:02 <pikhq_> Making watching videos an interesting experience wherein I get about a minute of video.
06:42:57 <doesthiswork> augur: I'm getting the feeling that it's not for no reason
06:43:18 <augur> dont confuse cause and effect, doesthiswork.
06:46:54 <doesthiswork> iterated interactions don't have cause and effect they have nash equilibriums
06:48:45 <augur> so whats new in esoland anyway
06:48:54 <augur> any interesting new esolangs of note?
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06:50:54 <pikhq_> Well, I've been working on a Chip8 emulator today.
07:09:16 <zzo38> Is there a kind of (symbolic) logic which describes well-founded Z-machine object trees?
07:11:15 <zzo38> (Each object can have or not have a parent, sibling, and child. "Well-founded" means the following: (a) An object with a sibling also has a parent. (b) An object is the parent of exactly those objects in the sibling list of its child. (c) Each object can be given a level n, such that parentless objects have level 0 and all children of a level n object have level n+1.)
07:12:40 <zzo38> (Note that the "child" the object has is the first child and then the sibling means the next one after that. The sibling should not loop.)
07:19:33 <FreeFull> pikhq_: Why not Chip16? Too complicated?
07:22:22 <pikhq_> FreeFull: Totally unrelated to that reddit thread actually. Friend of mine and I were discussing the Chip8 in particular.
07:23:41 <pikhq_> Besides, if I wanted to emulate a higher-power nicer system, well, I've already done that.
07:23:47 <pikhq_> cmako is pretty sweet.
07:24:41 <c00kiemon5ter> RogerTheGreat already implemented the mako vm for his chip8
07:25:58 <FreeFull> I just want a good Chip16 emulator that runs on linux =P
07:26:07 <FreeFull> And I never saw that reddit thread
07:26:08 <pikhq_> Also, yeah, that's what started me on it.
07:28:32 <FreeFull> There is an ngemu thread where it originated
07:31:51 <zzo38> If it is written in SDL then it can easily be ported to other operating systems.
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07:36:51 <zzo38> FreeFull: Well, nearly anything in SDL.
07:37:31 <FreeFull> I don't think Chip16 has an SDL port
07:37:35 <FreeFull> Or a C compiler that targets it
07:38:24 <zzo38> Well, anything with SDL, anyways; I don't know what all of them are.
07:40:26 <FreeFull> Mako is a programming language + VM and has multiple implementations
07:40:36 <FreeFull> I'm sure there is at least one that uses SDL
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12:32:02 <fizzie> From: IEEE Spectrum Tech Alert Subject: Robots Are Not Killing Jobs, Says a Roboticist
12:32:09 <fizzie> I'm not sure that's an entirely unbiased source.
12:32:26 <fizzie> I suppose it's better than "Robots Are Not Killing Jobs, Says a Robot".
12:32:46 <fizzie> ("We're not killing jobs, we're killing people" was the actual quote.)
12:32:57 <Jafet> ROBOTS KILLED JOBS
12:34:07 <fizzie> I don't think Jobs was very poor.
12:34:10 <Jafet> I read that subject line as "our robots still suck"
12:35:01 <fizzie> Other highlights from the same mailing: LASER FUSION'S BRIGHTEST HOPE well I suppose that'd be pretty bright yes
12:35:29 <fizzie> "WOULD THE MOB REALLY BREAK YOUR VIRTUAL KNEECAPS WITH COUNTERFEIT CHIPS?"
12:35:46 <fizzie> I suppse they have a specifically hired headline-writer there.
12:36:11 <c00kiemon5ter> I bumped on that article too, a couple of days ago
12:36:44 <c00kiemon5ter> the site it was on has two more sites that each prompt you to look at the others
12:42:18 <matteu> Robots are Not Killing Jobs, He's Already Dead, Says a Roboticist
12:42:54 <matteu> Robots are Not Killing Jobs, I Just Don't Feel Like Getting One, Says a Hobbyist Roboticist
12:43:36 <matteu> Beep boop bee-boop beep, Says a Robot
12:43:52 <fizzie> Robots are Not Killing Jobs, Says a Terrified Roboticist Working in a Lab Full of Killer Robots
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12:59:52 <c00kiemon5ter> Robots are Not Killing Jobs, says an abducted-by-robots Roboticist, who's been missing for three years
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13:08:08 <fizzie> Robots are Not Killing Joops, Says a Roboticist
13:08:40 -!- boily has joined.
13:09:10 <fizzie> (I'll let someone else do a `welcome there.)
13:10:21 <HackEgo> WeLcOmE To tHe iNtErNaTiOnAl hUb fOr eSoTeRiC PrOgRaMmInG LaNgUaGe dEsIgN AnD DePlOyMeNt! FoR MoRe iNfOrMaTiOn, ChEcK OuT OuR WiKi: HtTp://eSoLaNgS.OrG/WiKi/mAiN_PaGe. (fOr tHe oThEr kInD Of eSoTeRiCa, TrY #eSoTeRiC On iRc.dAl.nEt.)
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13:13:46 <HackEgo> Joop: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
13:14:21 <Joop> Can nesting in all its forms be eliminated?
13:14:55 <Jafet> `run welcome there | rainwords
13:14:58 <HackEgo> there: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
13:18:23 <Joop> if in calculus nesting can be eliminated by the model of reverse polish notation, can it be eliminated in program flow too?
13:21:33 <AnotherTest> But nesting in calculus isn't really the same thing?
13:22:10 <AnotherTest> Unless you're not talking about things like (a + b * (c + d))
13:22:46 <AnotherTest> (which would be equivalent to a b c d + * +
13:24:03 <AnotherTest> that's clearly not the same thing as for (...) (for(...) ...)
13:26:17 <fizzie> I'm not sure what nesting in program flow means, here. But take for example some sort of cellular automaton, I don't know what would be especially "nested" there, and they can compute the usual stuff.
13:26:48 <Joop> yeah I'm not exactly sure what I want to bring up :)
13:28:08 <Joop> mmm I'm wondering if designing a 'guess the number' program
13:28:52 <Joop> the core guessing will be in a loop that exists till the right number is guessed
13:29:33 <Joop> but outside that loop will be a loop that will ask if you want to play again Y/N
13:31:30 <Joop> the guessing part of the program is nested within the 'ask again' part
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13:35:22 <Joop> can I put this 'ask again' on a stack for later use? Are there limitations with such model, do you need multiple stacks with complex programs?
13:35:58 <Joop> Just thinking out loud here, sorry
13:36:36 <AnotherTest> You could make the program execute itself again (recursion)
13:37:03 <AnotherTest> if the language you are using doesn't support nested loops
13:37:19 <AnotherTest> (although it might not support recursion either)
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13:40:39 <boily> good morning humans! just to be sure that all of us are proper first-class meatbags, please solve one of these: http://crapcha.com/
13:41:40 <Joop> I work on a little esolang that has commands for duplicating next element, moving next element to end of program, getting last element of the program, swapping next 2 elements.
13:42:35 <Joop> elements may contain 1 or more commands
13:46:47 <Joop> so you can group commands in an element but there are no other possibility to group
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14:14:09 <fizzie> I was about to say that it sounds a bit tag-systemy.
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14:30:42 <Phantom_Hoover> hey guys i found a good scp: http://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/scp-1348
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14:34:20 <Koen_> oklofok: I feel like there's a whole world of possibilities in robozzle that I haven't unraveled yet
14:34:22 <Koen_> http://s15.postimg.org/4p207q28b/Capture_d_e_cran_2013_04_17_a_16_31_24.png
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15:01:18 <tromp_> that looks like an easy stack exercise
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15:05:15 <Koen_> tromp_: I figured as well
15:06:08 <tromp_> i was puzzled by Elevator
15:07:40 <Koen_> I was elevated by puzzle!
15:25:11 <oklofok> Koen_: did you solve that already?
15:25:39 <Koen_> that sounded awfully hard, like there was something about robozzle I didn't know about
15:25:43 <Koen_> and then tromp_ said it was easy
15:25:46 <Koen_> and then it was easy
15:26:18 <tromp_> trying Up then Down now
15:26:18 <Koen_> next one was about browsing a tree, using the call stack in a similar manner to know how long the branches were
15:26:41 <oklofok> most of the squares are useless right?
15:26:49 <oklofok> not most but the ones under you
15:27:28 <Koen_> I didn't use the down part
15:27:43 <Koen_> oklofok: I'm here now http://s21.postimg.org/5fcjavaif/Capture_d_e_cran_2013_04_17_a_17_26_44.png
15:28:11 <Koen_> I got all stars except for those in the upper part of the "2"
15:29:52 <oklofok> okay that's a finite state machine exercise i suppose
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15:31:04 <Koen_> not sure what you mean by that
15:31:19 <oklofok> that you don't need a stack
15:48:53 <kmc> elliott: did you try to guess my nickserv password
15:49:12 <elliott> if I did I don't remember it :P
15:49:25 <kmc> o no also shachaf left
15:50:21 <kmc> oh well it was a while ago
15:50:22 <kmc> 03:50 -NickServ(NickServ@services.)- 2 failed logins since last login.
15:50:22 <kmc> 03:50 -NickServ(NickServ@services.)- Last failed attempt from: elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott on Mar 07 02:39:22 2013.
15:50:39 <elliott> maybe you said something was your password as a joke and i tried to ghost you just in case
15:50:58 <elliott> alternatively maybe you are actually me
15:51:10 <elliott> but no i honestly don't remember
15:51:17 <elliott> next time i will heck your aim more successfully
15:51:36 <elliott> 02:36:53: <kmc> /msg nickserv ghost elliott
15:51:36 <elliott> 02:37:08: <elliott> kmc: whats your password
15:51:36 <elliott> 02:38:05: <kmc> bonghits4jesus
15:51:49 <elliott> 02:38:42: <elliott> i didn't believe you but tried to ghost you nonetheless
15:51:49 <elliott> 02:38:47: <elliott> basic principles of professionalism
15:51:49 <elliott> 02:38:54: <kmc> you sure did
15:51:56 <elliott> 02:39:06: <elliott> did it tell you
15:51:56 <elliott> 02:39:11: <Bike> you're one of the worst sleepers i've ever seen.
15:51:56 <elliott> 02:39:16: <elliott> did it say hey kmc im nickserv the snitchand that elliott guy is the WORST
15:51:59 <elliott> 02:39:16: <kmc> nobody will guess my password because i used the numeral '4' instead of the word 'four'
15:52:48 <elliott> IS MY NAME CLEARED NOW, KMC????
16:00:53 <elliott> i think kmc is preparing to sue me as we speak
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16:07:47 <fizzie> I've forgotten my RoboZZle account. :/ :\
16:08:41 <mroman_> Somewhere within 7 Mio. Years somebody eventually will have the same password as you .
16:09:10 <mroman_> if everybody only has one password, of course.
16:09:25 <fizzie> There is no "I'm stupid and lost my password" button in the login form.
16:09:37 <mroman_> to be realistic it's probably somewhere within 1 Mio. Years.
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16:10:06 <fizzie> I don't even know if I'm this "fizzie", but it sounds reasonably possible from the list of solved puzzels.
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16:31:17 <elliott> `run echo '<Phantom_Hoover> it's that place where they all wear kilts and chase haggises around whilst warding off the loch ness monster with bagpipes' >wisdom/scotland
16:31:19 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `'' \ bash: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file
16:31:25 <elliott> `run echo "<Phantom_Hoover> it's that place where they all wear kilts and chase haggises around whilst warding off the loch ness monster with bagpipes" >wisdom/scotland
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16:39:44 <kmc> how could you forget the deep fried mars bars
16:39:55 <kmc> and the having your oil money stolen by england
16:40:28 <Phantom_Hoover> "if they can even remember it's not the same as ireland"
16:41:16 <Bike> http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mbjunxHrNp1qzeo2zo1_500.jpg like this?
16:44:30 <Phantom_Hoover> (Do people really confuse the two? Like is it really not just another "stupid american" joke?)
16:46:57 <kmc> "People won't equate you with a natural disaster, ma'am." "Really, Amy? Cause I've met some people. Okay, real people. And I gotta tell ya: a lot of 'em are fucking idiots."
16:47:42 <fizzie> I confess my geographical knowledge of the US states is quite poor.
16:48:09 <Bike> it's pretty boring knowledge
16:48:21 <kmc> americans who grow up on the coasts often have a pretty truncated understanding of the middle of the country
16:50:13 <elliott> america is too big to understand IMO
16:50:17 <elliott> sort of like graham's number
16:51:28 <fizzie> I've heard some Americans are too big to understand, too.
16:52:24 <Bike> i'm going to assume that's a joke about walt whitman
16:56:19 <Jafet> The united US states
16:56:29 <elliott> 03:20:37: <oerjan> matteu: ok that comment just after the `addquote at least implies it's probably DS9
16:56:32 <elliott> 03:21:06: <matteu> yay DS9
16:56:43 <elliott> it was about a dwarf fortress dwarf named after the DS9 bashir
16:57:36 <elliott> 04:11:19: <kmc> has anyone written a git-like version control system in shell script yet
16:57:39 <elliott> 04:11:23: <kmc> i think it should be pretty easy
16:57:46 <kmc> lololololol
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17:05:09 <elliott> so is there no rule against telling people to commit suicide in here
17:05:13 <elliott> b/c that would be a pretty good rule
17:05:18 <elliott> (hi i finished logreading)
17:05:49 <Bike> is the rule that fuck that? because fuck that
17:06:11 <Bike> oh shachaf is still gone
17:07:09 <elliott> (the joke is the implication that this channel would have rules)
17:08:54 <Phantom_Hoover> @tell matteu since you probably don't logread, the bashir in question was my doctor in dwarf fortress
17:09:29 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/bin/pastalog: Permission denied \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /hackenv/bin/pastalog: cannot execute: Permission denied
17:09:47 <HackEgo> -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 19 Mar 31 19:00 bin/pastalog
17:10:05 <Bike> `cat bin/pastalog
17:10:17 <Bike> `run chmod +x bin/pastalog
17:10:53 <HackEgo> 2013-01-23.txt:12:12:59: <oerjan> `pastaquote
17:11:16 <HackEgo> bin/pastalog \ bin/pastaquote
17:11:26 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ exec quote "pasta|spaghetti|macaroni|maccheroni|ravioli|fusilli|tortellini|noodle|tagliatelle"
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17:11:44 <HackEgo> 988) <Sgeo> I think pastaquote should just quote me
17:12:07 <elliott> fizzie: i don't suppose you might consider doing something about this. getting a channel regular to leave because you told them to kill themselves is out of line. and this isn't the first time he's done it to shachaf
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17:43:51 <elliott> 12:35:29: <fizzie> "WOULD THE MOB REALLY BREAK YOUR VIRTUAL KNEECAPS WITH COUNTERFEIT CHIPS?"
17:43:56 <elliott> btw this made me think of chips as in chips chips
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17:44:19 * Bike_ eats american kind
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17:46:20 <fizzie> I don't really consider a "why don't you kill yourself" reply per se so out of line, to a (basically) "why don't you shut up" comment that, as far as I can tell, didn't really have any particular reason behind it. Certainly -- based on a quick grep -- there seems to be a well-established channel tradition of telling other people to kill themselves, even if this instance was more malicious than ...
17:46:27 <fizzie> If you like, I can "do something" in the sense that I issue an official proclamation that requests that people stick to civil discussion on interesting matters and avoid personal attacks of any kind. I'm sure that'll take care of everything.
17:46:31 <fizzie> In any case, I'm not sure what "doing something" would be, since the only administrative tool around here is the banhammer, and I don't think there's a strong tradition of permanently banning people that don't get along with other people, just outright prolonged harrassment. If even that.
17:47:00 <fizzie> It's kind of like how politics works, I understand? It's all strongly worded notes of protest.
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17:47:49 <kmc> that's how diplomacy works, politics not so much
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17:48:01 <boily> a “do something” thing could be me filling out the missing pieces of my coördinates/body weight list, and use that to deploy some kind of neurotoxic agent to disrespectful members.
17:48:13 <boily> (a neurotoxic substance that makes people behave well, mind you)
17:48:17 <Bike> Could you tell people (in an oply way) not to tell people to kill themselves?
17:48:50 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o fizzie.
17:48:52 <fizzie> Don't tell people to kill themselves, it's not cool.
17:48:54 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: -o fizzie.
17:49:09 <Bike> i mean, whe it happens ¬_¬
17:49:24 <fizzie> (But, really, people say "kill yourself" to other people here all the time.)
17:49:41 <Bike> `pastelogs kill yourself
17:49:54 <Bike> `run ls bin/past*
17:50:02 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.9056
17:50:04 <HackEgo> bin/pastalog \ bin/pastaquote \ bin/paste \ bin/pastefortunes \ bin/pastekarma \ bin/pastelog \ bin/pastelogs \ bin/pastenquotes \ bin/pastequotes \ bin/pastewisdom \ bin/pastlog
17:50:25 <elliott> i certainly said nothing about permabans... anyway general insults are quite categorically different from telling people to kill themselves, especially when you separate things said in jest, among friends, which is rather different (esp. when a repeat incident)
17:50:39 <elliott> logs are one thing, I'm sure I've done it myself; I've done lots of things I'd rather not
17:50:51 <fizzie> Well, there's that; normally the tone's quite different, yes.
17:51:47 <elliott> not saying anything about what shachaf said himself or whether that deserved any response or wahtever, but I don't think you can say it's on the same level
17:52:12 <elliott> "o well" -- kmc, Greek philosopher (2013)
17:52:50 <Jafet> Why don't you go perform a felo-de-se
17:53:37 <fizzie> Is that something you can eat?
17:54:07 <kmc> is that a final sigma
17:54:18 <boily> it is a final sigma.
17:54:24 <elliott> Keegan McAllister and the Final Sigma
17:54:25 <kmc> boily: I figured since it comes from "McAllister" it should be the hard sound
17:54:30 <Jafet> Final things are not allowed in here
17:54:36 <kmc> but χ isn't right either
17:54:43 <kmc> i guess just κμκ
17:54:45 <kmc> looks dumb
17:55:31 <elliott> kmc's REAL name is actually Kay Emcee
17:56:03 <Bike> master of ceremonies
17:56:53 <boily> my first name is of greek origin, but trying to fit boily into that sounds painful.
17:57:23 <elliott> hm there is an awful lot of spam on the wiki
17:57:28 <elliott> perhaps I should change tack and make fizzie an admin instead.
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17:59:43 <boily> oh. Shift-7 on a finnish keyboard.
17:59:55 <elliott> how wrong can you possibly be
18:00:07 <elliott> wait what is that IAm_thor2 thing. presumably a bot from the hostname
18:00:37 <boily> I know that Shift-7 is &, my keyboard knows that Shift-7 is &, but why fizzie's tnick?
18:01:03 <fizzie> The 7foo "oh look I tried to make an IRC command but typoed, how amusing" "joke" is quite common on Finnish IRCnet channels.
18:01:04 <Phantom_Hoover> can you do greek letters with the default XCompose setup
18:01:09 <fizzie> Didn't think of keyboard layouts.
18:01:25 <fizzie> / is what it's in ours. Ours is kind of strange.
18:01:56 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: i don't know of a way
18:02:06 <fizzie> Typically it's used as "7msg someone something salacious".
18:03:09 <elliott> 7msg fizzie something salacious
18:03:52 <fizzie> (Also, is there no Unicode for $\varphi$, I like that much more than $\phi$, which is what φ here looks like. I guess there shouldn't be one, but when has that stopped Unicode?)
18:04:13 <elliott> what is the difference again
18:04:37 <fizzie> $\phi$ is the one that you get if you just put | on top of a o, while $\varphi$ is the loopy kinda thing.
18:05:12 <fizzie> http://detexify.kirelabs.org.s3.amazonaws.com/images/latex/2bf9aa2da649fb42fb7290ca2d861d1c.png <- $\varphi$
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18:05:39 <fizzie> http://detexify.kirelabs.org.s3.amazonaws.com/images/latex/3336b533e43ccfa8df784d507b171627.png <- $\phi$
18:05:53 <fizzie> And this is just the DejaVu Sans Mono, I think. If it has Greek in it.
18:06:16 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Don't tell people to kill themselves, I hear it's not cool.
18:06:25 <kmc> fizzie: there must be some maths paper that uses $\phi$ and $\varphi$ to mean different things, which would be enough for Unicode
18:06:38 <kmc> cf http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematical_Alphanumeric_Symbols
18:06:43 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Next time I'll drop "I hear".
18:07:00 <fizzie> Maybe I should've looked there.
18:07:43 <elliott> bike is suffering from rapid chin expansion
18:07:46 <fizzie> That's funny, it's the loopy phi there, even for the normal one.
18:07:51 <elliott> well i guess that's not really a chin
18:07:59 * boily stretches bike face
18:08:12 <Bike> -_______________________-
18:08:39 <fizzie> There was some trick in gucharmap that could be used to tell which font it's currently using to render which symbol.
18:08:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, (we're testing fizzie's "tell people not to tell people to kill themselves" protocols)
18:09:05 <fizzie> "in mathematical contexts, the loopy glyph is preferred, to contrast with U+03D5 GREEK PHI SYMBOL" is what it says about regular Greek small letter phi.
18:09:10 <Taneb> I had a picnic today with my friends
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18:11:05 <Bike> ◊_______________________◊
18:12:48 <boily> `addquote <Bike> ◊_______________________◊ <elliott> help. <Phantom_Hoover> jesus christ elliott <Phantom_Hoover> apply pressure evenly when jamming eyes open
18:12:52 <HackEgo> 1034) <Bike> ◊_______________________◊ <elliott> help. <Phantom_Hoover> jesus christ elliott <Phantom_Hoover> apply pressure evenly when jamming eyes open
18:13:20 <HackEgo> 854) <shachaf> Bike: Your client colours people? <Bike> it would be pretty boring to see everyone as white, i get that enough in real life \ 857) <Bike> "damn, my port of ghc to php isn't properly taking javascript booleans into account" \ 877) <kmc> i bet a blog post complaining about ");});});" syntax in JavaScript and comparing it unfavorably t
18:15:10 <elliott> Bike: so do all bikes have eyes like that
18:16:11 <elliott> http://arxiv.org/abs/1302.1886
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18:18:46 <fizzie> "-- demonstrating that human collective behavior is consistent with the predictions of simplified models." Sounds like psychohistory.
18:18:48 <HackEgo> 877) <kmc> i bet a blog post complaining about ");});});" syntax in JavaScript and comparing it unfavorably to Lisp would get approximately one billion comments on hacker news <Bike> but at what cost? your very soul, kmc!
18:19:35 <olsner> is hacker news more javascript than lisp?
18:20:46 <elliott> also: http://mattbierbaum.github.io/moshpits.js/
18:21:34 <FireFly> Those semicolons could be dropped, at least
18:23:58 <elliott> Taneb: have you considered: dude
18:24:20 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +v Taneb.
18:24:54 <Taneb> I've just been voiced, haven't I
18:27:02 <boily> The Voice of Taneb That Shines in the Night
18:27:16 <boily> (or day. we're having a pretty sunny day now, for a change.)
18:29:05 <elliott> the voice of taneb that shines in the day but not quite as much
18:30:15 <elliott> Treatise On The Frightening Discovery That Walls & Birds Don't Exist
18:33:58 <olsner> is there a name for the idea that if you don't remember something it hasn't actually happened?
18:53:07 <nooodl> that's called "being dumb" hth
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19:22:01 <elliott> does anyone know any good workarounds for universe inconsistencies in coq
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19:33:08 <boily> according to my trusty steed, I must be voiced.
19:33:25 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +v metasepia.
19:33:38 <boily> I really had it coming.
19:34:24 <boily> oh well. that means only one thing...
19:35:14 <boily> HARK YE, YOU HEATHENS! BEHAVE YOUR PUNY SELVES OR INCUR THE WRATH OF THE ERROR(1) ON YOUR MISSHAPEN BODY!
19:36:27 <metasepia> --- Possible commands: dice, duck, echo, eval, fortune, metar, ping, yi
19:36:27 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: -v metasepia.
19:37:02 <boily> ah, that fell good. thanks elliott. now let's never do that again.
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19:43:29 <Taneb> Hi ais523, how are you doing?
19:43:37 <ais523> Taneb: I've just woken up
19:43:47 <Taneb> That's... probably not good
19:43:51 <Taneb> When did you go to sleep
19:43:57 <lambdabot> Local time for ais523 is Wed Apr 17 20:43:56 2013
19:44:18 <Taneb> 9 hours sleep, not that bad, then
19:44:27 <Taneb> You're somewhat in the wrong time zone
19:44:35 <Taneb> But other than that...
19:44:43 <ais523> Taneb: well I revolve around the world over time
19:45:00 <ais523> I'm in the correct timezone occasionally
19:45:22 <Taneb> Don't you, like, have a job for which you need to appear respectable for?
19:47:06 <boily> if I'm clothed, that means I'm at work, or not changing armour at the moment.
19:47:33 <elliott> Taneb: he's a grad student
19:47:40 <elliott> they don't appear respectable no matter what they do, so why try?
19:47:48 <metasepia> "Beware of programmers carrying screwdrivers."
19:47:50 <Taneb> elliott, makes sense
19:48:00 <Taneb> On another note, has the favicon for Wikipedia changed?
19:48:02 <elliott> actually is ais523 still a grad student
19:48:13 <elliott> ais523: let us know when we have to start calling you dr ais523
19:49:05 <ais523> I'm currently in the fourth of four ¾-years
19:49:14 <ais523> due to the PhD being part time
19:49:21 <metasepia> ESSA 171920Z 22012KT CAVOK 09/00 Q1012 R88/09//95 NOSIG
19:49:45 <elliott> ais523: what are you working on these days?
19:50:06 <ais523> elliott: PhD/job-wise? or hobby-wise?
19:50:55 <ais523> elliott: in terms of my PhD, I'm busy trying to write up the categorical and game semantics for ICA-like language rigorously
19:51:07 <ais523> and in a way that doesn't annoy category theorists
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19:51:23 <ais523> it's easy to make a rigorous semantics, but hard to do it in a way that won't annoy people
19:51:30 <ais523> (which is important when you want them to mark your work)
19:52:36 <ais523> for the teaching, it's the last week of the easter holiday
19:52:37 <elliott> ais523: categorical semantics are interesting, I should learn about them sometime
19:52:52 <ais523> so I want to give the students some advice on how to do exams next week
19:53:09 <ais523> in theory they've all done A-levels and the like, but given that they're coming from all over the world and all sorts of education systems
19:53:16 <ais523> some of them might not realise how exams actually work
19:53:42 <ais523> and many more might not realise how they work at Birmingham University (things like "always bring proof of ID")
19:54:23 <ais523> also talking about things like "if a question's only worth one mark, you're wasting your time if you write an essay in response", and talking about how their degree class is calculated
19:54:33 <ais523> in terms of hobbies, I'm mostly working on Pokémon at the moment
19:54:38 <ais523> so jsondb, together with just playtesting
19:54:39 <Taneb> ais523, if I was a student at Birmingham, and brought my Australian passport, and spoke in a crap Aussie accent, would I get kicked out
19:54:54 <ais523> Taneb: you're technically Australian?
19:54:58 <ais523> but we get worse accents than that, anyway
19:55:12 <Taneb> But I cannot do the accent at all
19:55:48 <ais523> Taneb: normally just bringing your university ID card is enough, and we actually prefer it that way
19:56:20 <ais523> because it has a photo on it
19:56:38 <ais523> it basically stems from incidents in the past where people paid other people to sit the exams for them
19:57:05 <ais523> and given that the invigilators are often centralised rather than come from the department that sets the exam, without ID that might be missed altogether
19:58:08 <ais523> elliott: I decided to write my own database engine in JavaScript, also Perl
19:58:15 <ais523> I think you missed the discussions where I came to that decision
19:58:28 <ais523> although they were in #esoteric so you might have logread them
19:58:40 <ais523> it's not heavily optimized, or really meant to be
19:59:09 <ais523> but it's easier to use from a programming point of view than writing SQL because you don't have to write all the joins by hand
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20:06:52 <oerjan> <elliott> oh neither are here <-- DOES IT MATTER
20:09:44 <ais523> anyway it's mostly aimed at keeping the source size small, also at keeping the database size small
20:09:53 <ais523> (small-compressed, because the database is, obviously, stored as JSON)
20:12:23 <fizzie> Are category theorists easy to annoy? (They sound like they would be.)
20:12:43 <oerjan> <fizzie> I would think in general it's just an arbitrary challenge/response pair. <-- i think the half year i had a US account, it was "what is your mother's maiden name". though maybe i just remember that because it's stereotypical.
20:13:21 <oerjan> fizzie: only up to isomorphism.
20:13:59 <oerjan> you may _think_ they're annoyed, but it might be a different feeling.
20:14:12 <Gregor> Hello, voiceless peons.
20:14:16 <Gregor> How is #esoteric today?
20:14:16 <olsner> isomorphisms annoy category theorists?
20:14:28 <lambdabot> *** "peon" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
20:14:29 <lambdabot> n 1: a laborer who is obliged to do menial work [syn: {drudge},
20:14:30 <boily> what is down from isomorphism?
20:14:31 <Taneb> Gregor, I would tell you, but I seem to be voiceless
20:14:32 <fizzie> oerjan: I remember a story (maybe from notalwaysright.com or something) about a guy calling customer service, and them asking the security question, and he'd been drunk or something when setting up the account, so the security question was something like "am I an asshole?", and then he said "um, no", and that was the wrong answer.
20:14:35 <metasepia> Peonage is a type of involuntary servitude of laborers having little control over their employment conditions.
20:14:52 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: -v Gregor.
20:15:11 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +v Gregor.
20:15:17 <oerjan> let's not go overboard here.
20:15:26 <Gregor> I didn't know I was so close to the edge!
20:15:44 <boily> what's the protocol for trying to go kill yourself?
20:15:54 <elliott> my campaign would like to remark that I had no involvement in this devoicing.
20:15:58 <Gregor> boily: /ctcp self terminate
20:16:18 <elliott> I believe Gregor's logs will implicate oerjan, who is acting as a rogue agent against my popularly-supported op campaign.
20:16:18 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, <Gregor> Time to kill myself. ← imo requires comment
20:16:25 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: IMO shut up.
20:16:35 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: I couldn't decide if it did.
20:16:45 <fizzie> I suppose self-edges are edges too.
20:17:33 <oerjan> elliott: i'm just speaking up for the anti-peonists (which are people against peonism, _not_ people against people who happen, due to temporary misfortune, to be peons, hth)
20:17:59 <elliott> oerjan: okay. you should elect a peonist for balance.
20:18:04 <elliott> have I mentioned how much I support the plight of the peons?
20:18:34 <elliott> i mean their plight to appreciate voices
20:19:35 <fizzie> Once there was an adventure game, and it had a "listen" command, and (as far as I know, anyway) the only thing the "listen" command did in any state of the game was to pop up a message saying "I hear voices, do you?"
20:19:59 <olsner> ISTR the king's quest games did a lot with their verbs
20:20:22 <fizzie> olsner: This was a game without a parser, all the commands were in a menu at the bottom.
20:20:32 <AnotherTest> I'm using my mouse with my left hand even tho I'm right-handed for some reason
20:20:42 <boily> Gregor: the ctcp doesn't work. :/
20:20:48 <AnotherTest> someone told me it will make me stammer, lol
20:21:05 <fizzie> AnotherTest: It'll make your palms hairy.
20:21:29 <olsner> fizzie: I don't think there was a text version of any king's quest
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20:23:48 <oerjan> http://www.city-data.com/forum/attachments/las-vegas/86330d1319291357-hairy-palms-palms.jpg
20:24:03 <fizzie> olsner: Didn't those -- pre-VI, anyway -- use a parsed text input as the interaction method, though?
20:24:09 <fizzie> Or maybe pre-V. Something.
20:25:00 <olsner> I guess those would be before my time
20:25:09 <fizzie> The game in question was also edutainment, and designed to teach things about puberty, I think.
20:25:20 <fizzie> Also things in general, like "stealing is wrong" and so on.
20:25:31 <fizzie> And "dogs eat sausage".
20:25:52 <Taneb> "dogs eat sausage" important lessons about puberty
20:25:57 <fizzie> And there was something about rusty bedframes in a tree, and maybe a junkyard.
20:26:15 <Taneb> ...didn't something like that happen near the end of the Odyssey?
20:26:16 <fizzie> I sort of have only very vague recollections about this game, and I've never been able to find it anywhere.
20:26:41 <fizzie> (I'd appreciate if someone could find me a copy of MURKKU.)
20:26:43 <elliott> are you sure it wasn't finnish and hence non-existent
20:26:56 <fizzie> It most certainly was Finnish.
20:26:58 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, i half-remember that and now i'm starting to think the odyssey was really stupid
20:26:58 <boily> s/finnish/canadianish/
20:27:09 <fizzie> (In fact, the command was "kuuntele", and the message was "Kuulen ääniä, kuuletko sinäkin?")
20:27:11 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, the Iliad actually had robots
20:27:19 <olsner> MURKKU, a tale of darkness and death?
20:27:35 <olsner> or maybe it was cold and loneliness
20:27:55 <fizzie> olsner: It's a colloquialism for "murrosikäinen", i.e. a person undergoing puberty.
20:28:07 <fizzie> (Also for "muurahainen", an ant.)
20:28:36 <fizzie> All I've found from the internets are some Finnish forum posts about people reminiscing about old games.
20:30:16 <fizzie> Probably it's on a floppy, somewhere in the world.
20:30:50 <olsner> probably only in finland
20:31:30 <fizzie> I might have the school's Netware server's SCSI drive (over a hundred megabytes!) somewhere, it's also even conceivable that it's on there, but I haven't seen it in a decade.
20:32:20 <olsner> how many different scsi variants are there, do you have the hardware and cables to read it?
20:33:25 <fizzie> There are quite a few variants. I did have it connected to something, I remember that much.
20:33:46 <fizzie> The Sun/SGI boxes both speak some form of SCSI.
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20:36:55 <fizzie> Also a chapter on "strange design decisions": the name-brand PC we had at home, a Compaq Presario CDS633 (486SX/33 + "multimedia"), it had a SCSI CD-ROM drive, and also a variant of SB16 where the same (ISA) card housed an Adaptec SCSI chipset, to which the CD-ROM was hooked.
20:37:27 <olsner> I think the soundcard/cd adapter combo was pretty common
20:37:56 <olsner> but I think I've mostly seen it with IDE (unless there's a scsi over a similar connector that I confused it with)
20:38:09 <fizzie> Yes, that's more common; and also with some proprietary interfaces.
20:38:21 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SB16 "The Sound Blaster with the SCSI controller (SB 16 SCSI-2) was designed for use with "High End" SCSI based CD-ROM drives."
20:38:32 <fizzie> Yeah, "High End", it was double-speed.
20:39:06 <fizzie> That's, what, 300 kilobytes every second?
20:40:00 <fizzie> In any case, technically you could have used to to connect any SCSI devices. (Except the boot drive, as the above-mentioned article explains.)
20:40:28 <kmc> did you still need to also hook up the analog sound cable if you wanted to play CD-Audio?
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20:40:57 <kmc> that always seemed so strange to me
20:40:58 <fizzie> At least for "regular" playback.
20:41:00 <olsner> 300kBps is a bit less than CD audio
20:41:18 <kmc> i guess that's why...
20:41:40 <kmc> also CD-Audio is missing the error correction of CD-ROM
20:41:52 <fizzie> olsner: 44100*2*2 -> 176400 bytes per second.
20:42:01 <kmc> not sure why that should matter, but it's different anyway
20:42:33 <fizzie> The error correction aspect is the reason for the difference between the 1x "150 kBps" data speed, and that audio data rate.
20:43:01 <olsner> probably more a matter of it being fairly ridiculous to read the digital data at "high" speeds only to shuffle the bytes back to the same card they came from so they can be converted to analog
20:43:03 <fizzie> 2352 bytes of audio, vs. 2048 bytes of data.
20:43:27 <olsner> hmm, I think I was thinking about the MB/minute figure for cd audio there
20:43:55 <fizzie> Yes, it would've presumably had a reasonable CPU cost, too.
20:44:10 <fizzie> Whereas you could have CD audio playing in the background quite well.
20:44:21 <fizzie> When the drive was doing the D/A and all by itself, that is.
20:44:58 <fizzie> There's a number of CD-ROM games where the soundtrack's as audio tracks on the CD, played by the game as required.
20:46:29 <kmc> is CD Audio straight up PCM?
20:46:49 <kmc> ah yeah. they call it "Linear PCM" just to be precise
20:47:38 <Fiora> linear because it's not curved (like mu-law or something) right?
20:48:03 <fizzie> Fiora: Yes, probably to distinguish from µ-law and A-law.
20:48:28 <fizzie> One of the "new" CD formats (SACD) is some sort of fancy 1-bit resolution, 2.8 MHz sampling rate thing.
20:48:49 <boily> curved PCM, where instead of straight PCM with 1s and 0s, you have ) and D.
20:48:52 <Fiora> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_Stream_Digital ?
20:50:44 <fizzie> The delta-sigma thing is a common ADC/DAC design, it's kind of related.
20:51:14 <fizzie> I remember the topic being briefly covered on some signal processing course or another.
20:53:50 <Fiora> oooh. so the actual audio signal is basically an integral over the DTD signal?
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20:56:55 <fizzie> Pretty much. Compared to regular 16-bit linear PCM, you just make the small steps with the impulses.
20:59:04 <fizzie> The Wikipedia "Delta-sigma modulation" article looks (at a glance) quite comprehensive.
20:59:20 <kmc> is it an integral, or just a low-pass filter?
20:59:34 <fizzie> Even if it needs additional citations for verification. (December 2011) may require cleanup to meet Wikipedia's quality standards. (June 2011) may be too technical for most readers to understand. (June 2011)
20:59:54 <kmc> it seems like an extreme case of oversampling and then low-pass filtering to get greater effective resolution than your sample resolution
21:02:47 <fizzie> I guess that might be just a point of view? Certainly that's how the DAC side goes, you twiddle a voltage according to the 0s and 1s and then low-pass filter out the high-frequency components.
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21:04:16 <kmc> that's also how the PC speaker works
21:04:17 <Taneb> Geharrewar looks promising
21:04:20 <kmc> but with poor filtering I think
21:04:39 <Fiora> huh, so the PC speaker is a 1-bit speaker?
21:04:54 <kmc> i think so
21:04:57 <fizzie> The traditional one is, yes.
21:05:03 <kmc> of course these days it might be an emulation by the on-board sound chipset
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21:07:44 <fizzie> It also arguably doesn't have an actual "low-pass filter", it's just that it's a physical device and the moving parts obey the laws of physics.
21:08:03 <olsner> can a speaker be 1-bit? I'd say you just only get one bit to control it
21:08:12 <olsner> (if you don't rather set a frequency with the right magic bits)
21:08:56 <fizzie> olsner: A massless ideal point speaker that produces a "1-bit" pressure wave.
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21:09:16 <olsner> there's nothing ideal about the PC speaker :)
21:09:28 <fizzie> It's an approximation. :p
21:09:35 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, wouldn't that, like, make the air in front of it explode?
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21:11:13 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: It was already a point source, so... I suppose I don't know. Maybe it just makes more air as needed, in order to make the high-pressure parts of the wave.
21:12:17 <Fiora> the air in front of it momentarily turns into a quark-gluon plasma
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21:13:05 <fizzie> I also don't know if SACD really made it anywhere. Certainly I've never seen a player, or a disc.
21:13:21 <ais523> fizzie: well a real-life speaker attempting to change DC offset (i.e. a step function) sounds like a click
21:13:28 <ais523> obviously it can't do it exactly
21:13:33 <ais523> but modern speakers can do quite a good approximation
21:13:53 <fizzie> I think there was a DVD-Audio disc somewhere.
21:14:22 <fizzie> That's just "boring" linear PCM, but it goes up to 192 kHz and 24 bits.
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21:17:06 <fizzie> It's a proprietary lossless compression format.
21:17:15 <fizzie> (Probably patented? They usually are.)
21:17:24 <ais523> fizzie: are current digital microphones good enough to capture 24 bits at 192 kHz?
21:17:27 <olsner> I should read something about lossless audio compression some day
21:17:57 <Fiora> I think they're all relatively similar? like I remember FLAC is basically LPC + rice coding
21:18:01 <Fiora> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_predictive_coding
21:18:14 <fizzie> I think Blü-ray incorpamorated MLP as a mandatory technology too.
21:18:16 <Fiora> so like there's all these weird formats like TTA and Monkeys Audio and stuff
21:18:31 <Fiora> but I think they're mostly just variations on LPC with different entropy back-ends?
21:18:36 <fizzie> Maybe it was optional.
21:19:08 <elliott> huh, LucasArts shut down and I didn't even notice.
21:19:17 <fizzie> Yes, seems that it's optional. (It's what Dolby "TrueHD" uses.)
21:19:57 <olsner> hmm, they did didn't they? I saw something about that
21:20:11 <elliott> admittedly they hadn't done anything even remotely interesting for three years. and nothing *really* interesting for 15.
21:20:13 <olsner> to be fair, has lucasarts done anything in the last 5-10 years?
21:20:29 <elliott> they did those updated versions of MI1/MI2
21:20:49 <fizzie> Fiora: Wikipedia says Monkey's Audio takes approximately as much resources to decode as it does to encode, which sounds kind of strange.
21:21:00 <olsner> there was some kind of kickstarter or similar for a new monkey island installment, I think? but unconnected to lucasarts as I understood it
21:21:27 <fizzie> I think they did one of the Star Wars games themselves, too. (I don't know which one.)
21:21:42 <olsner> (or maybe that was some unrelated game by the same people who presumably left lucasarts before then)
21:21:59 <Fiora> fizzie: I think I remember APE was the one that used arithmetic coding? so it ate CPU like crazy
21:22:05 <ais523> elliott: I noticed, fwiw
21:22:06 <Fiora> (relative to like, FLAC)
21:22:11 <ais523> but basically because the tech news were all discussing it
21:22:26 <ais523> and the majority opinion was "well, they used to be good, but it's no real loss nowadays"
21:22:47 <elliott> ais523: you should have told me! now it's too late to, um. i don't know, replay grim fandango or something
21:23:04 <fizzie> Fiora: I'm not sure why everyone just doesn't use FLAC for their lossless needs, honestly.
21:23:06 <elliott> actually if I tried to replay Grim Fandango, it'd probably last about five minutes before I give up thanks to the interface.
21:23:23 <ais523> elliott: can you give a precise definition of what tech news I should inform you of?
21:23:34 <Fiora> fizzie: my feeling is that lossless formats are way easier to make than lossy ones (since you don't have to worry about all the crazy complicated psychoacoustic stuff)
21:23:38 <Fiora> so they tend to breed
21:23:56 <Fiora> open source wise people probably make them for fun, and companies like Dolby make their own so they can sell them (?)
21:24:10 <fizzie> I do think at least Apple Lossless is LPC-based.
21:24:20 <ais523> Fiora: now I'm wondering: you know how old computer programs used to be stored on audio tape?
21:24:22 <fizzie> Good old linear prediction, the workhorse of everything.
21:24:34 <ais523> back before audio cassettes were separated from data storage?
21:24:39 <olsner> this approach of shutting down after having done nothing notable for years seems somehow better than that whole idea about stopping when you're at your best
21:24:49 <elliott> nobody was alive back then, ais523
21:24:53 <Fiora> and it seems like it's "not too hard" to beat flac by a tiny little bit, so people like to do that?
21:24:53 * kmc should learn how arithmetic coding works, one day
21:24:56 <elliott> the world started existing in 1995
21:25:03 <ais523> would an .mp3 of those work? or would it fail because it filtered out things that are inaudible to humans but matter to the computer?
21:25:16 <elliott> presumably they had to have a bunch of redundancy and error correction?
21:25:20 <elliott> since tape isn't exactly the most reliable of formats
21:25:24 <kmc> ais523: i used to store TRS-80 programs on my Windows machine, but as uncompressed PCM
21:25:31 <ais523> elliott: well my first computer was one of the first available-to-the-general-public systems which used floppy drives rather than cassette drives
21:25:32 <olsner> kmc: or range coding which is exactly the same but not patented
21:25:47 <fizzie> ais523: I think they're quite robust, FWIW. I mean, people sent them over FM radio.
21:25:53 <Fiora> kmc: I think I remember the explanation that had to be pounded into my head in order to actually finally get it <.<
21:25:55 <kmc> i know that programs were sometimes sent over radio, or pressed onto cheapo records and included in computer magazines
21:25:59 <kmc> Fiora: oh?
21:26:14 <fizzie> Of course the psychoacoustics like masking will be all wrong for data.
21:26:20 <ais523> fizzie: yes but that was analog
21:26:26 <olsner> iirc c64 used a really simple encoding, something like beep=1 and silence=0
21:26:27 <Fiora> um, so basically like. let's say you have a range of values between 0.0 and 1.0
21:26:34 <Fiora> so [0.0,1.0] is our range
21:26:49 <ais523> and these data were basically designed to be sent over analog systems, FM radio isn't much different from an audio cassette in that respect
21:26:52 <fizzie> ais523: Anyway, you could go and do an empirical test of it, with just a computer.
21:26:54 <Fiora> now let's say we're encoding a bit, and our probability is "60% 1, 40% 0", so we've decided a priori for some reason that 1s are more likely than 0s
21:27:15 <Fiora> and let's say we decide to code a 1
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21:27:29 <ais523> fizzie: yeah except I'd need some sort of converter between lossless audio (probably .wav) and actual program files
21:27:32 <Fiora> so we split the range, [0,0.6] and [0.6,1.0]
21:27:41 <fizzie> ais523: Those are freely available, though.
21:27:48 <Fiora> the first range is the range that we'd get with a 1, and the second is the range we'd get with a 0.
21:27:54 <Fiora> since we're doing a 1, we now have [0,0.6]
21:27:56 <fizzie> ais523: I've used them to write C64 tapes with a cassette deck connected to a soundcard.
21:28:24 <Fiora> okay, so now we repeat the process. let's say we code a 0. we end up with [0.36,0.6].
21:28:31 <Fiora> now, our range is smaller than 0.5! so we need to renormalize.
21:28:45 <Fiora> or wait... ignore that last thing I said <.< I'm dumb.
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21:29:13 <Fiora> we repeat the process until our range no longer crosses 0.5.
21:29:34 <Fiora> when it stops crossing 0.5, if the range is /below/ 0.5, we output a "0", otherwise we output a "1", and we expand the range by a factor of 2 to compensate.
21:29:50 <Fiora> basically, we're constructing a loooonnnnng continued binary fraction.
21:29:58 <Fiora> when our range doesn't cross 0.5, we "know for sure" the next bit of the fraction.
21:30:06 <Fiora> "renormalizing" writes out that bit of the fraction, and expands the range.
21:30:11 <olsner> can't you end up unlucky with a range getting closer and closer to 0.5?
21:30:33 <kmc> i'll have to think about it more later (kinda distracted atm)
21:30:35 <olsner> i.e. never reaching the point where you know if it's a 0 or 1 to write
21:30:37 <kmc> but it basically makes sense
21:30:38 <Fiora> you totally can, but it's progressively less likely? and I think arithmetic coders have some thing to work around it
21:30:54 <Fiora> like, what'll end up happening is at some point you'll stop crossing 0.5, and you'll have a looooot of bits to write.
21:31:07 <Fiora> I think the thing is typically the range is quantized? so like, it's not an infinite rational decimal
21:31:17 <Fiora> so eventually at some point you have to round and stop crossing it XD
21:31:23 <fizzie> olsner: The various fast loaders do optimize the tape encodings, though.
21:31:36 <Fiora> I'm really not sure about the details though, I think it depends on the implementation...
21:31:53 <fizzie> (The ROM routines are more about robustness than speed, I think.)
21:32:29 <Fiora> the other important bit I think was that the really important part is how you pick the probabilities, which is where all the interesting stuff comes in
21:32:29 <olsner> you just fudge the probabilities for symbols to make sure you have a decision within a specific number of bits?
21:32:30 <elliott> Fiora: hm, thanks for the explanation
21:32:43 <elliott> I didn't know how arithmetic coders work and now it mostly makes sense
21:33:01 <Fiora> arithmetic coding is basically just a thing that lets you have fractional output bits per input bit (unlike huffman codes, which have to be integer)
21:33:07 <Fiora> but they don't do anything smart on their own kinda
21:33:19 <Fiora> just like, with huffman codes, you have to build a huffman tree
21:33:34 <Fiora> so with arithmetic coding you need some algorithm to pick probabilities.
21:34:19 <elliott> so when you're doing more than bits (like say English words), do you just extend the alphabet beyond 0,1, or do you do something fancy where you decide the probability for bits following some other bits or something instead?
21:34:39 <Fiora> firstly I think it's possible to do a multi-symbol coder (like, split the range into more than 2 sections)
21:34:47 <Fiora> but I think those are less used because they're a lot more complicated
21:35:06 <Fiora> but yeah, I think that's what you do? it's called a 'context model', I think
21:35:23 <Fiora> a super crazy example are the PAQ compressors, they have like, neural net driven context mixing craziness
21:35:37 <elliott> it's sort of markov chainy
21:35:45 <Fiora> "context mixing" is basically a thing where you run a bunch of models simultaneously, and weight them based on how good they've been
21:36:03 <Fiora> it's like. continuous markov chains. or something
21:36:03 <kmc> markov cheney
21:36:14 <Fiora> I think that's where the "M" in LZMA comes from?
21:36:17 <fizzie> ais523: Come to think of it, and looking at the CBM ROM tape encoding, it could be that you do in fact get a rather messed-up signal, since it's based on lengths of square wave pulses -- with lengths in the 0.35 to 0.67 ms range -- while the lossy encodings generally take frames of like 26 ms and go all subband on that. You should consider actually investigating this.
21:36:51 <ais523> fizzie: yeah, I'm curious
21:36:58 <ais523> I'm not sure the results would be useful, but they'd be interesting
21:37:15 <Fiora> (I always think of "context mixing" as the compression variant of that thing that the netflix prize winners did)
21:37:28 <Fiora> (which was combine like a dozen different teams' algorithms and weight them together <.<)
21:37:40 <elliott> "I am making the world better by CONFUSING THE SQUARES" -- cpressey
21:37:54 -!- elliott has set topic: I am making the world better by CONFUSING THE SQUARES | Underhanded C Contest: http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
21:38:26 <elliott> the little ones that make up all the images on your computer
21:39:17 <olsner> what happens to the images when you confuse the squares? :S
21:39:38 <fizzie> Fiora: That's how people win speech recognition contests, too. You take a dozen different systems and then stick it all into something like ROVER.
21:40:02 <elliott> fizzie: generic obligatory remark mocking speech recognition research, etc.
21:40:15 <fizzie> Fiora: Recognizer Output Voting Error Reduction, it's a semi-clever way of combining results.
21:41:29 <Bike> throw shit at it until it works: TSAIUIW
21:41:38 <fizzie> Fiora: You make a single lattice kind of a network of the joint results and then you mumble mumble rescore mumble voting mumble http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/articleDetails.jsp?arnumber=659110
21:43:21 <fizzie> I think machine translation folks do the same thing, except with slightly different tricks.
21:43:52 <fizzie> Their variant is called MEMT, for Multi-Engine Machine Translation.
21:44:12 <elliott> that's not a very good acronym
21:45:29 <fizzie> elliott: Well, it does use METEOR (Metric for Evaluation of Translation with Explicit ORdering) as a component, does that help?
21:46:57 <Fiora> programmer acronyms -_-
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21:47:18 <elliott> those are speech recognition researchers
21:47:40 <fizzie> Hey now, don't lump those machine translation weirdoes together with us.
21:48:14 <nooodl> someone's 100% sure that the odds of rolling a 40 with two d20 dice is
21:48:43 <nooodl> No, for every combination of given permutations each dice is represented by 1/20 but only for non repeating combinations. Therefore, the chances of selecting a single combination from two dice is given by one out of the squared factorial of the possible permutations of a single die, which is 20.
21:48:43 <nooodl> Therefore, 1/(20!)2 for all possible outcomes.
21:48:43 <nooodl> EDIT: Forgot to mention that this is applicable for n<400 but n>16 for N+1 combinations, statistically speaking.
21:48:56 <Fiora> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SELENE though scientists love doing that too XD
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21:49:05 <Fiora> a lunar spacecraft. acronym'd. SELENE. <.<
21:49:19 * Fiora likes its nickname, too
21:49:29 <Fiora> Though I don't think they backcronym'd the nickname.
21:49:49 <nooodl> and then someone explains it to him plain and simple, using 3-sided dice as an argument, and...
21:49:49 <Bike> oh, kaguya, of course
21:49:54 <nooodl> "No dude you're making a sampling error. Go back and do it again and you'll see what I'm talking about."
21:50:00 <elliott> ACRONYM Acronym Constructed Reversely Osomething Nsomething Ysomething Msomething
21:50:10 <fizzie> nooodl: Maybe it's some kind of a troll.
21:50:23 <ais523> nooodl: 3-sided dice are hard to build, though
21:50:39 <fizzie> ais523: Yes, you need to take a d6 and label it {1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 3}.
21:50:59 <nooodl> i was gonna go with a d4 labeled {1, 2, 3, "roll again"}
21:51:24 <fizzie> nooodl: A d20 labeled with {1, 2, 3, "roll again", "roll again", ...} so that your games aren't over too soon.
21:52:05 <fizzie> I was thinking maybe octave's fact() function is the factorial.
21:52:09 <fizzie> Richad Stallman's pinky finger is really a USB memory stick.
21:52:14 <fizzie> I don't think that's 20!.
21:52:33 <kmc> fact(sphere)
21:52:42 <fizzie> elliott: "Richard Stallman doesn't always run an OS kernel, but when he does he prefers GNU/Hurd. He is... the most interesting hacker in the world. Stay free, my friends."
21:52:43 <Bike> damn we don't have shachaf here
21:52:48 <nooodl> i assume fact(1), fact(2) etc all exist
21:52:51 <Bike> for a fun fact
21:52:57 <fizzie> nooodl: fact(20) is not always the same fact, it seems.
21:53:00 <HackEgo> Baryalay: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
21:53:01 <Bike> i feel so... deprived.
21:53:16 <fizzie> nooodl: Apparently it ignores all arguments.
21:53:18 <nooodl> when's the last time anyone used `welcome
21:53:25 <Bike> just now, elliott did it
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21:53:31 <olsner> Bike: rainbow welcome deprives you?
21:53:35 <elliott> `addquote <fizzie> ... <fizzie> I was thinking maybe octave's fact() function is the factorial. <fizzie> octave:1> fact(20) <fizzie> Richad Stallman's pinky finger is really a USB memory stick. <fizzie> I don't think that's 20!.
21:53:39 <HackEgo> 1035) <fizzie> ... <fizzie> I was thinking maybe octave's fact() function is the factorial. <fizzie> octave:1> fact(20) <fizzie> Richad Stallman's pinky finger is really a USB memory stick. <fizzie> I don't think that's 20!.
21:53:40 <Bike> `pastelog `welcome
21:53:46 <fizzie> elliott: http://sprunge.us/IfYW ALL FACTS
21:53:58 <elliott> ## Copyright (C) 2007 Stallmanfacts.com
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21:54:06 <elliott> "Richard Stallman doesn't need sudo. I will make him a sandwich anyway.";
21:54:25 <elliott> "sudo chown rms:gnu ~/base -R";
21:54:28 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.2331
21:54:29 <nooodl> "\"RMS\" stands for \"RMS Makes Software\"";
21:54:31 <fizzie> These are... kind of bad.
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21:54:37 <Bike> do you think this is worse or better than wolfram
21:54:42 <Bike> i don't think i can decide
21:54:49 <olsner> "Richard Stallman doesn't need sudo. He'll just eat something off his foot instead of a sandwich."
21:55:42 <fizzie> "Richard Stallman won a Suduku that started with only one number in each line"
21:56:22 <fizzie> I don't know how all of these manage to be so... bad.
21:56:38 <nooodl> 2011-11-18.txt:22:42:49: <elliott> oerjan: wtf is `welcome and why does it exist
21:56:48 <Bike> Oh how the mighty have fallen
21:56:52 <olsner> is that the first mention?
21:57:14 <Bike> Wow, that expression is from 2 Samuel.
21:57:15 <nooodl> the first mention is... <Sgeo|web> `welcome
21:57:24 <Bike> sgeo's an innovator
21:59:00 <elliott> did someone break pastelog or something
21:59:03 <elliott> why does it give random lines without dates
21:59:08 <elliott> why doesn't it give the message for running out of lines
21:59:21 <Bike> `cat bin/pastelog
21:59:23 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ cd /var/irclogs/_esoteric \ \ pasterandom() { \ if [ "$1" -gt 150 ]; then \ echo "No." \ exit \ fi \ for i in $(seq "$1"); do \ file=$(shuf -en 1 ????-??-??.txt) \ echo "$file:$(shuf -n 1 $file)" \ done | paste \ } \ \ if [ "$1" ]; then \ if expr "$1" + 0 >/dev/null 2>&1; then \
21:59:38 <olsner> that list of quotes is really quite bad
22:00:08 <Phantom_Hoover> <Bike> do you think this is worse or better than wolfram
22:00:09 <oerjan> <elliott> nobody was alive back then, ais523 <-- i recall my cousin played with magnets, and ruined the cassette with all the interesting programs for my dad's oric-1
22:00:24 <elliott> I seem to remember a radio station broadcasting a computer game or something
22:00:30 <elliott> maybe it was a cassette with a recording of it
22:00:36 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: they're both shitty is what i'm saying
22:00:41 <elliott> but like I remember the announcer saying and now we are going to broadcast a zx spectrum program
22:00:45 <elliott> [KREEEOORRRCSHCJSHJCSJCHS]
22:00:53 <elliott> maybe itw as a great dream
22:00:59 <fizzie> elliott: Did it make you feel awe?
22:01:08 <Phantom_Hoover> you are de-serifying wolfram's shittiness by comparing it to rms's milquetoast weirdness
22:01:23 <Bike> maybe elliott is a kid who had his personality overwritten with a ZX Spectrum program
22:02:09 <oerjan> <elliott> since tape isn't exactly the most reliable of formats <-- iirc it had a fast and a slow save/load format, and we never got the fast one to work.
22:02:11 <elliott> iirc stallman is actually an asshole beyond being awkward
22:02:24 <itsy> ^bf ++++[>++++<-]>+[>>++>+>+>++<[+++++<]<-]>>>++.>-.<++++..+++.>>--.++<<<.---->.--<[-.>]
22:02:34 <Bike> oh right he did http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/EMACS_virgins_joke
22:02:43 <itsy> What's the smallest know Brainfuck hello world?
22:02:58 <elliott> maybe it was the whining a bunch for someone saying "sorry I can't work on this emacs thing right now because we just had a baby" on the mailing list thing
22:03:10 -!- fungot has joined.
22:03:14 <fizzie> ^bf ++++[>++++<-]>+[>>++>+>+>++<[+++++<]<-]>>>++.>-.<++++..+++.>>--.++<<<.---->.--<[-.>]
22:03:29 <Bike> maybe everyone is just terrible.
22:03:29 <nooodl> To help avoid misunderstandings of this kind in the future, since August I have changed the joke so that the Virgin of Emacs can be of either sex.
22:03:31 <Bike> are you terrible?
22:03:37 <olsner> how dare people have children when software remains unfree
22:03:46 <Bike> imo i'm terrible
22:04:05 <itsy> That Hello World is 84 instructions. What's the shortest known?
22:04:22 <elliott> there are two whole webpages about this happening at different times
22:04:24 <elliott> http://www.art.net/~hopkins/Don/text/rms-vs-doctor.html
22:04:27 <fizzie> That's a "hello world", not a "Hello World", though.
22:04:30 <elliott> http://edward.oconnor.cx/2005/04/rms
22:04:51 <Bike> elliott: what the fuck.
22:05:47 <Fiora> geez. I didn't quite comprehend the magnitude of his self-absorbness
22:08:02 <Bike> Ahaha he does overpopulation shit
22:08:08 <elliott> at least nobody actually expects stallman to be well-adjusted in the first place
22:08:41 <Phantom_Hoover> can we not lose track of the fact that we are comparing him to wolfram here
22:09:00 <Bike> "Human overpopulation is the root cause of every environmental problem in this world" wow this is a deep vein of terrible
22:09:04 <fizzie> If I understood the above links correctly, I should point out here on channel that I did not have a baby today. Was this correct?
22:09:31 <Fiora> wow. he's. actually an antinatalist
22:09:53 <elliott> fizzie: you're married though, i thought married people did all the weird boring things like having babies
22:09:53 <Bike> malthusianism is so incredibly silly, argh
22:09:59 <oerjan> <Fiora> you totally can, but it's progressively less likely? and I think arithmetic coders have some thing to work around it <-- what i see is that you can do expansion when the range gets inside [0.25, 0.75), and keep a counter for how many times you've done that since you last actually wrote a bit. then when you get to actually write a bit, prepend count number of the opposite bit. i think.
22:10:17 <Fiora> oerjan: OHHHHH. right. I think I remember something to that effect
22:10:20 <Fiora> "bits outstanding" or something?
22:10:34 <Fiora> that makes much more sense, thanks
22:10:46 * Fiora mentally fixes the hole in her explanation
22:11:08 <fizzie> elliott: I suppose it correlates, like those pirates and global warming.
22:11:22 <elliott> it also correlates with you being really old!
22:11:39 <oerjan> * _append_ count opposite bits, i think.
22:11:58 <fizzie> Well, I'm not making any babies, I heard it would ruin the world.
22:12:05 <olsner> append to output before appending the rest of the bits to output?
22:12:50 <nooodl> ^bf ,[.,]!Hello, world!
22:13:06 <Fiora> and wow. the emacs thing. just. eeesh
22:13:18 <elliott> fizzie: would you rather ruin the world or statistics?
22:13:25 <elliott> I hear speech recognition uses a lot of the latter, but is useless in the former.
22:14:25 <elliott> You can find jokes about me by other people in stallmanfacts.com. However, if a joke describes any software as "open" or "closed", please vote it down, because that would give the wrong idea of what I stand for.
22:14:45 <elliott> Here's someone else's humor about me. The statements attributed to me are quoted out of context from my info packet for people organizing my speeches.
22:14:55 <elliott> ESR's favorite programming language: Objectivist C.
22:15:00 <elliott> haha even stallman makes fun of esr
22:16:53 -!- Baryalay has quit (Quit: Leaving).
22:20:19 -!- itsy has left.
22:20:58 <elliott> well it's a link to someone else's joke
22:21:29 <fizzie> Oh no; stallmanfacts.com has, in fact, been taken over by a domain squatter.
22:21:47 <fizzie> Now the facts only live on in /usr/share/octave/3.6.2/m/miscellaneous/fact.m.
22:22:34 <elliott> do any of them mention open or closed
22:22:52 <fizzie> Not really in a "bad" way.
22:23:00 <fizzie> "Richard Stallman doesn't really believe in open software, because it's not free enough."
22:23:03 <fizzie> I mean, that's a fact.
22:23:15 <oerjan> <elliott> did someone break pastelog or something
22:23:18 <fizzie> "Richard Stallman, upon reading these facts, didn't laugh at all. Instead, he complained that he is being linked to that dirty \"open source\" software. He also asked it to be changed to \"free software\", in order to raise awareness for software freedom in our society."
22:23:23 <elliott> actually having a laughter seizure; dying; please help; stallmanfacts just too funny
22:23:36 <fizzie> That may or may not be a fact, but it's still not misleading.
22:23:39 <oerjan> <-- i used `pastelogs yesterday and it worked, maybe `pastelog has diverged?
22:23:46 <fizzie> "Richard Stallman does not contribute to open source projects; open source projects contribute to Richard Stallman, and then call themselves free software projects."
22:23:53 <fizzie> That's something I can't really describe.
22:24:34 <fizzie> There are no references to "closed" software, it's all just "non-free".
22:24:42 <fizzie> I suppose someone may have "fixed" the facts.
22:25:20 <fizzie> "Richard Stallman's computer has only two buttons. One is for guests."
22:25:24 <fizzie> Some of these are just bizarre.
22:26:11 -!- Bike_ has joined.
22:26:21 <fizzie> Many of them do make fun of the "does not bathe" thing.
22:27:12 <fizzie> "Richard Stallman is licensed under GPL, so you can clone him and redistribute copies so you can help your neighbor. For example a version that take a bath more often." "Richard Stallman does not take bath, for the hydroelectric company uses proprietary software." "Agent Smith loves Richard Stallman's scent."
22:28:05 <elliott> fizzie: why do both of those have missing "s"es
22:28:09 <elliott> take[s] a bath, take bath[s]
22:28:24 <olsner> the cloning thing actually sounds reasonable, but I doubt genetic engineering can control bathiness yet
22:28:49 <fizzie> elliott: Because the s was not free software enough.
22:28:55 <elliott> fizzie: you mean open source
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22:31:07 <oerjan> <elliott> oerjan: well it "worked" <-- i'm pretty sure it gave me the date, since i used it to look up the actual log page :P
22:32:11 <elliott> did you click the paste in question
22:32:15 <elliott> you will see the anomalous lines I was referring to
22:32:23 <elliott> like mostly the output was fine
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22:33:36 <oerjan> elliott: i'm talking about my yesterday `pastelogs
22:33:52 <elliott> well I don't know what you mean by the date
22:34:39 <oerjan> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/f90804fc6712/paste/paste.1592
22:34:48 <oerjan> the part before the .txt, hth
22:35:50 <elliott> oerjan: I feel like I must be expressing myself incredibly unclearly. again, did you click the pastelogs I did that lead to me saying it was broken? it too had dates. but it also had lines just out of nowhere with no date or name and not even a proper sentence, occasionally in-between those
22:37:03 <fizzie> It's like watching two people with no language in common.
22:37:28 * Bike gesticulates wildly, accidentally pokes elliott in the eye
22:37:39 <oerjan> elliott: yes. i'm looking at it now. what seems to happen is that lines containing weird\nick has turned the \n into an actual newline.
22:38:18 <oerjan> `run diff bin/pastelog bin/pastelogs
22:38:29 <oerjan> ok so there's no difference there
22:38:43 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ cd /var/irclogs/_esoteric \ \ pasterandom() { \ if [ "$1" -gt 150 ]; then \ echo "No." \ exit \ fi \ for i in $(seq "$1"); do \ file=$(shuf -en 1 ????-??-??.txt) \ echo "$file:$(shuf -n 1 $file)" \ done | paste \ } \ \ if [ "$1" ]; then \ if expr "$1" + 0 >/dev/null 2>&1; then \
22:38:53 <oerjan> FreeFull: sounds like it
22:39:03 <elliott> `run diff- u bin/pastelog{,s}
22:39:04 <HackEgo> bash: diff-: command not found
22:39:07 <elliott> `run diff -u bin/pastelog{,s}
22:39:56 <oerjan> elliott: yes. the bug isn't new, it only showed up because the search hit a bunch of stuff with \n it it
22:40:53 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/bin/pastelogs
22:41:18 <fizzie> `run readlink bin/pastelogs # they're actually the same thing.
22:41:23 <oerjan> oh that one is a symbolic link
22:43:02 <oerjan> `run sed -i 's/lines=\([$].*\)/lines="\1"/' bin/pastelog
22:43:16 <nooodl> pastelog will stop working in the year 10000 wow
22:43:36 <oerjan> that won't work because there's a " inside too
22:44:02 <oerjan> how do you escape that so it works?
22:44:22 <fizzie> Are you sure it's not just the echo "$lines" interpreting escapes by default?
22:44:40 -!- Bike_ has joined.
22:44:45 <fizzie> Bash echo has a -E that disables them.
22:45:12 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
22:45:13 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ grep '^..:..:..: <[^>]*> `list' /var/irclogs/_esoteric/201[3-9]-??-??.txt | sed 's/^.*<//;s/>.*//;s/_*$//' | sort -u | tr '\n' ' '
22:45:16 -!- Bike_ has changed nick to Bike.
22:45:18 <fizzie> oerjan: But that's run as bin/sh.
22:45:25 <fizzie> oerjan: pastelog, I mean.
22:45:38 -!- carado_ has joined.
22:46:18 <fizzie> `run /bin/sh -c 'echo "foo\nbar"'
22:46:26 -!- augur has joined.
22:46:37 <fizzie> In fact, it's possible changing it to just /bin/bash might fix it.
22:47:11 <oerjan> `sed -i '1s/sh/bash/' bin/pastelog
22:47:12 <HackEgo> Usage: sed [OPTION]... {script-only-if-no-other-script} [input-file]... \ \ -n, --quiet, --silent \ suppress automatic printing of pattern space \ -e script, --expression=script \ add the script to the commands to be executed \ -f script-file, --file=script-file \ add the contents of script-
22:47:17 <oerjan> `run sed -i '1s/sh/bash/' bin/pastelog
22:47:43 <fizzie> NO WARRANTY EXPRESS OR IMPLIED
22:47:55 <fizzie> Just thought I'd get that out.
22:48:00 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.31610
22:48:21 <elliott> I guess we should stop using #!/bin/sh
22:48:46 <olsner> but not every system has bash
22:49:15 <olsner> don't you care about portability?
22:50:42 -!- nooodl has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
22:53:44 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
22:54:51 -!- WeThePeople has joined.
22:56:11 <oerjan> <elliott> it was about a dwarf fortress dwarf named after the DS9 bashir <-- ah now it makes all sense
22:57:57 <oerjan> <elliott> fizzie: i don't suppose you might consider doing something about this. getting a channel regular to leave because you told them to kill themselves is out of line. and this isn't the first time he's done it to shachaf
22:58:22 <elliott> oerjan: imo you need to start reading the logs backwards
22:58:23 -!- Bike_ has joined.
22:58:23 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
22:58:44 <elliott> SORRY FOR INTERRUPTING TYPING YOUR REPLY
22:58:57 <fizzie> oerjan: I did something already, I promised to type a note maybe.
22:59:28 <elliott> fizzie: don't you interrupt him too.
22:59:38 <oerjan> elliott: it's ok irssi has good enough history you can stop and restart typing lines
22:59:47 -!- augur has joined.
23:00:08 <oerjan> although now i shall have to see what fizzie did first
23:00:26 <olsner> elliott: I suggested he read all the lines at the same time to see both context and the followups
23:00:31 <Phantom_Hoover> the current twee bbc competition show is the "Great British Sewing Bee"
23:00:42 <olsner> (he didn't want to do that, for some reason)
23:00:48 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
23:02:03 <oerjan> olsner: i bitch at my short term memory all the time, no point giving it _more_ reasons to fail me.
23:03:38 <olsner> just drop all the lines that don't fit in memory, they were probably not important anyway
23:04:16 <olsner> actually, just ignore anything that happens when you weren't here, and you will be much happier and ignoranter
23:04:51 <oerjan> not to mention have more time to surf the rest of the net
23:05:34 <oerjan> <fizzie> That counts, right? <-- yes, but the count decrements gradually
23:05:56 <fizzie> .noisiced doog a no snoitalutargnoC .sdrawkcab sgol eht daer ot detrats deedni evah ot mees uoy ,najreo ,olleH
23:06:18 <fizzie> (It's a secret message.)
23:06:33 * Koen_ is kinda freaked out by how easily he could read that
23:07:19 -!- shachaf has joined.
23:08:15 <pikhq_> FreeFull: Yes, my implementation of Mako is the one using SDL.
23:08:28 <pikhq_> It's also the ludicrously efficient one.
23:09:37 -!- carado_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
23:17:15 <oerjan> <elliott> perhaps I should change tack and make fizzie an admin instead. <-- good luck with that.
23:17:28 <elliott> you don't understand the power at my fingertips
23:20:38 -!- hagb4rd has joined.
23:21:46 <FreeFull> https://github.com/pikhq/cmako
23:22:38 -!- Bike has joined.
23:23:29 <shachaf> Bike: fun fact: the existence difficult monoids is equivalent to the axiom of choice
23:23:44 <fizzie> oerjan: I'd probably be as industrous a wiki admin as I am a diligent channel operator.
23:23:55 <shachaf> (I was informed that you wanted a fun fact from me.)
23:24:01 <FreeFull> /home/freefull/code/cmako/build-aux/missing: Unknown `--is-lightweight' option
23:24:32 -!- Bike_ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
23:25:39 <oerjan> shachaf: what's a ... oh.
23:26:51 -!- WeThePeople has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:27:33 <kmc> i like how the press doesn't even bother to explain filibustering and cloture anymore, they just say "you need 60 votes to pass a bill in the senate"
23:27:42 <kmc> and by "like" i mean, our government is terminally broken
23:30:10 <Bike> i our government is terminally broken how the press
23:30:24 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: a lot of reasons, that's one though
23:30:32 <Sgeo> Fun: Going back and forth between two possible approaches without distributed VC
23:30:41 <kmc> Sgeo: don't do it
23:30:48 <Sgeo> And not wanting to commit such nonsense publically
23:31:09 <kmc> use git-svn or something
23:31:24 <Fiora> svn diff > test1.diff; patch -p0 < test2.diff; repeating forever? <.<
23:31:31 * Fiora remembers doing that -_-
23:31:41 <oerjan> <boily> according to my trusty steed, I must be voiced. <-- you can ride cuttlefish?
23:31:48 <Sgeo> Meh. Both ideas are now represented in code to some extent.
23:31:51 <Sgeo> In the same codebase
23:32:04 <Sgeo> I need a shelve feature. Does git have shelve?
23:32:26 <kmc> i don't know what shelve is
23:32:30 <kmc> but there's git stash
23:33:17 <elliott> i think hg-svn also exists
23:33:25 <elliott> failing that, git-hg does, so by transitivity...
23:33:39 <kmc> you should run the same repo through git-hg, hg-svn, and git-svn over and over
23:33:39 <Bike> that sounds horrifying, elliott.
23:33:43 <kmc> until it gets hopelessly corrupted
23:33:50 <Bike> wait kmc made it horrifyinger
23:33:58 <kmc> i worked somewhere that had a few devs still using CVS, and we had to sync their changes to our git repo
23:33:59 <Bike> it's like translation party except it probably won't degenerate into sex jokes :(
23:34:01 <kmc> *that* was horrifying
23:34:16 <elliott> kmc: why didn't you force them to switch
23:34:23 <kmc> elliott: they made more money than us
23:34:25 <kmc> finance job
23:34:40 <elliott> kmc: so this is the true reason finance is horrifying
23:34:52 <kmc> a true reason
23:35:02 <kmc> elliott: what should i do with my life
23:35:15 <kmc> don't like finance, don't like web startupland
23:35:20 <Bike> do you think ten years ago those cvs-ing employees were complaining about people just throwing flat patches around
23:35:23 <kmc> i think i don't like big companies but i've never really worked for one
23:35:32 <kmc> Bike: maybe
23:35:38 <Bike> clearly you should go into research i hear being a postdoc is Awesome
23:35:44 <kmc> throwing flat patches around is arguable better than CVS
23:35:49 <kmc> that's what the linux kernel people believe anyway
23:35:51 <elliott> kmc: uh are you able to improve the lives of the disadvantaged without going insane or getting incredibly depressed
23:36:00 <kmc> elliott: how would i do it though
23:36:05 <elliott> if you're looking for shoulds that's probably the blanket one
23:36:15 <Sgeo> I've thrown flat patches around
23:36:22 <kmc> i thought i would do it by working for a web startup and getting ridiculous bubble money and giving it away
23:36:25 <elliott> that of course very few people are likely to actually act on (including me, though I would probably go insane and get incredibly depressed)
23:36:28 <kmc> but it didn't work out
23:36:42 <Bike> maybe you could start a startup for helping disadvantaged people start startups
23:36:46 <elliott> kmc: maybe you could speculate bitcoins
23:36:51 <elliott> Bike: isn't that what kiva is
23:36:57 <kmc> i asked for more money so i could give it away, and they fired me instead
23:36:59 <Bike> yes darn scopped
23:37:00 <kmc> (over simplification)
23:37:21 <elliott> asking for more money at a startup sounds
23:37:29 <Bike> i dunno what's a way to help people. logistics. tell people the food bank doesn't need more cranberry sauce jesus christ donate laundry detergent instead everybody needs it
23:37:49 <kmc> i just gave them money
23:38:05 <kmc> maybe i should develop a process for fermenting cranberry sauce into cheap liquor
23:38:15 <Bike> i think we still have cranberry sauce from thanksgiving and we've been throwing two into every fucking basket
23:38:16 <elliott> kmc: you could overthrow capitalism and become a dictator
23:38:20 <elliott> but this time be good instead of evil
23:38:27 <kmc> elliott: heh
23:38:46 <Bike> kmc should make the new cybersyn
23:38:53 <Bike> so a socialist government can fuck over striking workers
23:38:54 <Sgeo> Money might be a better thing to donate instead of food because even if it's a food bank they can use the money to buy whatever food is needed and not whatever happens to be given
23:39:04 <Phantom_Hoover> if the guys in the year above me could make booze with some canned fruit they found in the home economics department you can make it with cranberry sauce
23:39:09 <kmc> Bike: i will build THATCHERBOT 50,000
23:39:30 <elliott> kmc: perhaps find something you enjoy and then give away some of the money to alleviate your guilt despite the fact that it's much less than you theoretically could give away if you were satisfied with being less comfortable
23:39:32 <Bike> seriously though it's "hilarious" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Cybersyn
23:39:37 <kmc> yeah I've seen it
23:39:40 <Bike> greatest success of robosocialism: strikebreaking
23:39:45 <kmc> p. cool idea, little to no validation that it would work
23:40:06 <kmc> if I were dictator I would probably institute democratic futarchy just to see what happens
23:40:10 <kmc> vote on values, bet on outcomes!
23:40:13 <Bike> i guess nowadays they call that sort of thing operations research
23:40:32 <kmc> Bike: i'll buy the most expensive Oracle ERP software and use it to run my country
23:40:36 <elliott> futarchy strikes me as a bad idea
23:40:44 <Bike> is that "erotic roleplay" kmc
23:40:48 <kmc> "vote on values, bet on outcomes!" has the advantage of fitting nicely on a sign or in a chant
23:40:55 <kmc> Bike: yep it's where oracle makes most of their money
23:40:56 <Bike> i have no idea what it means
23:40:59 <Bike> so, a nice slogan
23:41:04 <kmc> my slogan?
23:41:19 <Bike> "E-Business Suite", ok
23:41:24 <kmc> it means you use normal democratic methods to establish a socially agreed upon utility function
23:41:25 <Phantom_Hoover> in my mind kmc's ideal state is not a place i want to live in
23:41:33 <Bike> "Within the overall rubric of Oracle Applications - Apps,[1] Oracle Corporation's E-Business Suite (also known as Applications/Apps or EB-Suite/EBS) consists of a collection of enterprise resource planning (ERP), customer relationship management (CRM), and supply-chain management (SCM) computer applications either developed or acquired by Oracle" oh so it is related
23:41:40 <kmc> then you use prediction markets to decide the specific policies that should be pursued to fulfill that utility function
23:41:44 * Bike hacks at jargon with a machete
23:42:28 <kmc> the idea is that the market is better at figuring out what will 'work', but has a cruel and cold idea of what it wants, so the proper role of government is to make the market want 'good' things
23:42:29 <Bike> prediction markets...
23:42:37 <Bike> why is this called "futarchy"
23:42:51 <Bike> oh, good, i was expecting "it's the government of the future"
23:43:05 <kmc> 'It was named by the New York Times as a buzzword of 2008'
23:43:16 <elliott> robin hanson is kind of... robin hanson
23:43:22 <kmc> i've heard that
23:43:47 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:43:54 <Phantom_Hoover> so kmc you know how you mock people who get cs degrees and realise they can totally fix the world
23:44:15 <Bike> well, at least he's citing the system of some actual (if possibly crazy) economist instead of making shit up
23:44:58 <Bike> i think economics stopped making sense to me around the time i read a paper about how the market being efficient would imply P=NP
23:45:49 <hagb4rd> well please, go ahead and fix it!
23:46:07 <Bike> what, economics?
23:46:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Bike, seems to me the same argument could be applied to, like objectivists.
23:46:15 <elliott> kmc: a thought: you are unlikely to figure out how to better the world better than people who have already tried to figure out how to better the world
23:46:16 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: yeah
23:46:20 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: that was sort of the idea
23:46:29 <elliott> so you could figure out what they do and do that instead. except probably their methods involve being rich
23:46:36 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: since libertarians usually believe the market is efficient because they know shit-all
23:46:38 <kmc> also I'm bullshitting and don't seriously claim that I should be put in charge to institute futarchy
23:46:48 <kmc> i said "just to see what happens"
23:46:59 <Bike> kmc for indecisive president
23:47:04 <kmc> elliott: yeah, that was my previous plan, make lots of money and give it to those people
23:47:13 <elliott> kmc: if you are asking a random lazy 17-year-old on IRC what to do with your life you've probably hit rock bottom
23:47:21 <elliott> so do absolutely anything else and your life will improve!!
23:47:24 <kmc> maybe I should just find a finance company that doesn't suck
23:47:25 <kmc> elliott: haha
23:47:28 <kmc> i thought you were 18 now
23:47:35 <kmc> when is elliott day
23:48:02 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: you actually do things though
23:48:02 <kmc> i feel like I went from being usually the youngest person in a room to usually the oldest without any intermediate phase
23:48:33 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: do you have that mathematics degree yet
23:48:34 <Fiora> I woke up one day and I was like. not 18 anymore and suddenly old
23:48:37 <hagb4rd> <elliott>august 22 <-- is that your birthday?
23:48:46 <elliott> Fiora: imo 18 is pretty old
23:49:05 <Fiora> I think it was around the time I was doing my taxes ;-;
23:49:13 <elliott> my grey hairs conceal a head of wrinkles and soon i will evaporate into dust
23:49:40 <Phantom_Hoover> i remember turning 18 because i spent most of that day sitting in a car driving to coventry
23:49:52 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: the horrors of aging
23:50:08 <Phantom_Hoover> and most of that evening trying not to think about my kitchenware
23:50:11 <Fiora> not too much longer until christmas cake
23:50:20 <elliott> is this what i will be like when i turn 18
23:50:27 <elliott> driving to coventry... thinking about kitchenware...
23:50:44 <Bike> kmc: apropos of nothing maybe you could try reading some economist like amartya sen? he got an econ nobel and most of his work is on poor people and starvation
23:51:00 -!- c00kiemon5ter has left.
23:51:06 <Phantom_Hoover> you know, my life has been lacking in "sent to coventry" jokes of late
23:51:09 <elliott> Poor People & The Starvation Thereof: A Treatise
23:51:37 <Bike> elliott: "Poverty and Famines : An Essay on Entitlements and Deprivation"
23:51:44 <elliott> Bike: see I basically nailed it
23:52:22 <Bike> tackles such uplifting subjects as the bengal famine (three million dead) and the holodomor (another three million dead) (both mostly from human error)
23:52:45 <kmc> i thought the latter was more from stalin not giving a shit about ukraine
23:52:52 <elliott> that sounds like human error
23:53:06 <elliott> stalin error: he wasn't a very nice person
23:53:11 <Bike> yeah what he said
23:53:15 <hagb4rd> kmc: thats extactly what i had to think about
23:53:27 <Bike> it's not like the british authorities much cared about bengal either
23:53:29 <Phantom_Hoover> was the bengal famine the one churchill was evil about
23:53:41 <Bike> did you know: wikipedia has an article on famines in british india, specifically
23:53:47 <Bike> fun place fun times
23:53:48 <elliott> man I knew churchill had to be evil
23:54:00 <elliott> everyone likes him way too much and he sounded kind of like a jerk so i was suspicious
23:54:09 <Bike> oh he was definitely a jerk
23:54:16 <elliott> I guess selling car insurance is pretty evil to start with [BRITISH LAUGH TRACK]
23:54:26 <hagb4rd> seen a documentary lastly..it's called "soviet story"..there is a lot of shocking facts that are mostly unknown to the public (or at least they're not very popular)
23:54:41 <Phantom_Hoover> the house my mum was born in was (formerly) owned by churchill
23:54:42 <elliott> come on. that was good. Phantom_Hoover??
23:54:47 <elliott> do they have those ads in scotland
23:54:54 <Phantom_Hoover> he inherited, like, half the antrim coast from his aunt
23:54:55 <Bike> churchill also wrote a book about riding around in pakistan
23:55:02 <Bike> hagb4rd: the holodomor?
23:55:19 <elliott> ok i have to say it. holodomor just sounds like a cross between holocaust and mordor
23:55:32 <Bike> the holodomor is the famine in the ukraine in the 30s.
23:55:43 <Bike> elliott: it's the same "holo" in "holocaust", good job
23:55:51 <Bike> tip: that means "death"
23:55:51 <elliott> it's the kind of name you should give the worst possible thing
23:56:10 <elliott> it also sounds kind of like dumbledore
23:56:43 <elliott> i'm not saying dumbledore, hitler and sauron conspired to cause a famine in ukraine, but...
23:56:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Bike, yeah holocaust is whole-burnt, you UNEDUCATED FUCK
23:56:49 <elliott> i'm saying it's not IMPOSSIBLE
23:57:08 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: ok well "holodomor" is "wholly starved" then
23:57:11 <hagb4rd> its ironic the export of grain reached its height the same years
23:57:12 <Bike> very straightforward.
23:57:25 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, and you have a go at me for a couple of ill-advised suicide jokes
23:57:29 <elliott> he literally just said that
23:57:33 <elliott> by he i mean Phantom_Hoover
23:57:38 <Bike> hagb4rd: it's not ironic, similar things happened in bengal and ireland and such, Sen goes over this stuff
23:57:59 <Bike> hagb4rd: also if you want Shitty Soviet Things i highly recommend looking up Operation Lentil
23:58:04 <hagb4rd> it was absolutely inteded by stalin
23:58:31 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: i know, right?
23:59:03 <elliott> there were TWO FUCKING OPERATION LENTILS........
23:59:07 <elliott> there's a disambiguation page
23:59:31 <Bike> uncreative military planners hth