00:05:24 Mmmmmmmm, MSG. 00:07:04 MSG is one of my favorite seasonings. 00:10:04 There are too many variables in making curry for me to make any real comments on whether it improved things *shrugs* 00:10:08 But this IS some tasty curry X-D 00:15:17 I think it would be nice to be able take a function you'd made and make a variation of it where "floor" was replaced by "ceiling" without having to modify the text of the first functions 00:15:34 because sometimes I don't plan ahead 00:16:06 have you considered search/replace 00:16:46 -!- pib1978 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:18:15 making the replacements is no problem, it just so happens that many times i find myself trying out small variations on previous functions, and it'd be nice to just specify the changes without making the original function more complicated. 00:18:39 where floor = ceiling 00:19:12 -!- c00kiemon5ter has joined. 00:19:34 yes! and min = max 00:19:36 -!- calamari has quit (Quit: Bye). 00:20:34 and maybe 1 = 0 00:20:45 @let 1 = 0 00:20:47 Defined. 00:21:02 @1 00:21:03 Maybe you meant: . ? @ v 00:21:17 doesthiswork: well you could put the functions you use as arguments 00:21:49 koen_: yes, that is the responsible thing to do 00:22:06 1 = 0 isn't effective haskell 00:22:37 -!- c00kiemon5ter has quit (Client Quit). 00:22:44 psh responsible 00:22:58 -!- Koen_ has quit (Quit: The struct held his beloved integer in his strong, protecting arms, his eyes like sapphire orbs staring into her own. "W-will you... Will you union me?"). 00:23:45 There is something attractive about starting with a concrete example and then ad-hocly parameterizing it 00:24:21 elliott: the spammers seem to be about to fill the recent changes with registrations only :P 00:25:27 :t floor 00:25:29 (Integral b, RealFrac a) => a -> b 00:25:38 @src RealFrac 00:25:39 class (Real a, Fractional a) => RealFrac a where 00:25:39 properFraction :: (Integral b) => a -> (b,a) 00:25:39 truncate, round, ceiling, floor :: (Integral b) => a -> b 00:26:21 doesthiswork: just make a newtype swapping ceiling and floor methods hth 00:26:35 (this doesn't really help) 00:27:10 Is making wiki accounts turing complete 00:27:12 brilliant, I didn't even think of that 00:30:16 oerjan: hi oerjan 00:30:23 welcome oerjan 00:30:25 oerjan: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) 00:30:39 g'dachaf 00:31:37 oerjan: any new news 00:38:13 doesthiswork: that sounds like sort of a fit for implicit arguments 00:38:27 GHC for example supports those 00:38:54 :t let f x y = ?toInt ((x + y) / 2) in nf 00:38:55 Not in scope: nf' 00:38:55 Perhaps you meant one of these: 00:38:55 f' (line 1), f' (imported from Debug.SimpleReflect), 00:38:56 :t let f x y = ?toInt ((x + y) / 2) in f 00:38:57 (?toInt::a -> t, Fractional a) => a -> a -> t 00:39:23 you would call this like «let ?toInt = ceiling in f 4 7» 00:39:30 :t ?toInt 00:39:31 -!- c00kiemon5ter has joined. 00:39:32 (?toInt::t) => t 00:39:37 and you can have an outer 'default' value and shadow it locally 00:39:39 uh 00:40:44 :t ?fargle 00:40:45 (?fargle::t) => t 00:40:55 is it just any identifier with an initial question mark 00:41:21 that syntax is light enough that I wouldn't mind it 00:41:28 :t ?hapax_legomenon 00:41:30 (?hapax_legomenon::t) => t 00:41:36 cool 00:42:11 Bike: yes 00:42:33 type class constraints themselves are sort of like implicit parameters 00:43:06 so you can locally override these things? is it like, dynamically scoped 00:43:07 the key difference is that you can only have one instance for a given type and class, globally, while these implicit parameters can be shadowed locally 00:43:18 yeah, it's essentially an implementation of dynamic scope in Haskell 00:43:59 I,I instance (?foo :: Int) => ... where 00:44:39 locally overriding a type class instance would be super useful as well 00:44:47 but presents some difficulties with the way type classes are used today 00:44:54 Yes. 00:45:00 I wish I knew a good way to make that work. :-( 00:45:13 the code for «union :: (Ord k) => Map k v -> Map k v -> Map k v» is allowed to assume that the two maps were constructed wrt the same ordering 00:45:56 There is always "reflection", though. 00:46:19 there's a paper somewhere on unifying type classes and implicit params, but afaik they just have a keyword to say if local shadowing is allowed or not 00:46:25 so you still have to make this tradeoff 00:55:06 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:55:46 -!- carado_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 00:56:06 "GOMADWarrior: we're not #transhumanism" /ignore is great 00:57:47 who are they trolling now 00:57:52 #haskell 00:58:01 And also whatever channel Bike is in. 00:58:05 oh are they there too 00:58:08 00:53:05 what if it was possible to upload knowledge directly to the brain 00:58:19 imagine there's no heaven, it's easy if you try 00:58:30 imagine there's no GOMADWarrior, it's easy if you /ignore 00:59:26 fine, be reasonable 00:59:27 that GOMADWarrior guy is quite clever, managing to troll us by proxy even when he's banned. 00:59:35 >_> sorry 00:59:44 bike how terrible a job am I doing at talking lisp things 00:59:57 you're doing pretty fine 00:59:59 oh boy are you in #lisp 01:00:07 especially since "lisp things" means "x86 instruction coding" 01:00:10 very lispy 01:00:27 Fiora: (you (need) ((more (parentheses ())))) 01:00:30 *lithp thingth? 01:01:19 the worst programming jokes 01:01:36 I feel like I'm not really good enough for this stuff though -_- 01:02:48 but you always seem to feel that way 01:02:59 clearly you can't trust your sense of being good enough 01:03:01 i think the main problem you could have would be unfamiliarity with the codebase 01:03:11 like you probably don't have any idea what stassats meant by "inheritance" there 01:03:14 could that be because it's always true 01:03:15 also what shachaf said. 01:03:17 no. 01:03:21 nope, sorry 01:03:34 you just have a badly-calibrated sensor 01:03:38 you'll have to trust Bike 01:03:45 * Sgeo 's girlfriend was inducted into an honor society 01:03:50 a good one? 01:03:54 I just looked through my old mail, and I was invited last year 01:04:28 Sigma Beta Delta, is that good? 01:05:29 I don't actually know how to judge honor socieites. 01:05:46 Bike: The main thing is whether you know the Greek letters here, I think. 01:06:01 As in, would recognize them, be able to write them. 01:06:15 wait, are those greek letter designations globally unique at all? 01:06:41 galactically unique 01:06:58 * shachaf vanishes 01:07:04 (sigma beta delta doesn't have a wikipedia page, fwiw) 01:07:17 oerjan: I think they usually are. I mean there's like 27³ of them or w/e. 01:08:24 Honor society has the one line "Sigma Beta Delta, ΣΒΔ (business programs at schools that have regional accreditation, but not specialized accreditation in business)" 01:10:50 -!- Jafet has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 01:15:31 doesthiswork: the wikipedia article on cognitive linguistics is weird. 01:16:28 -!- augur has joined. 01:17:13 -!- c00kiemon5ter has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 01:17:37 what is weird about it? 01:19:31 most of it. 01:20:53 I joined #esoteric because I liked weird things, could you point out the especially weird pats of the article so I can appreciate them? 01:23:11 well i dunno 01:23:26 it's a "cognitive" theory that's pretty anti-cognitivist from what i can tell 01:23:36 and the Controversy section is just vague 01:25:31 it is pretty full of jargon 01:28:19 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 01:28:23 -!- Bike_ has joined. 01:28:38 -!- Bike_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:34:40 -!- Bike_ has joined. 01:37:15 -!- c00kiemon5ter has joined. 02:02:17 -!- Bike_ has quit (Quit: leaving). 02:02:47 -!- Bike has joined. 02:10:23 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 02:12:06 -!- Bike has joined. 02:36:32 -!- zzo38 has joined. 02:41:11 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:45:03 -!- matteu has joined. 03:04:20 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 03:04:26 -!- Bike has joined. 03:05:30 quote 03:05:37 507) Yeah, Bashir, just sit there drinking, rather than diagnosing the carpenter mauled in that tragic bonobo accident. 03:05:42 quote 03:05:48 143) it's not obvious from quantum mechanics that you can destroy a universe arbitrarily. 03:05:53 quote 03:05:55 788) Sleep on the ceiling next Sunday. 03:06:08 Bashir? As in DS9 Bashir? 03:06:25 kmc: IT TAKES ADDITIONAL GENIUS 03:06:37 isn't Bashir like the most common Arabic name 03:06:44 well, besides Mohammad probably 03:07:42 ali and achmed come to mind a lot earlier 03:08:29 Oh. Ok. 03:10:03 not that this tells anything about wtf phantom_hoover was referring 03:10:18 Well 03:10:26 but i somehow doubt DS9 had any bonobo accidents. 03:10:27 DS9 Bashir was a medical professional. 03:10:50 matteu: did he have a drinking problem? 03:11:21 pastlog addquote.*bashir 03:11:31 I'm too tired to start meandering through memory alpha 03:11:54 No output. 03:12:00 pastlog addquote.*bashir 03:12:38 No output. 03:12:56 pastelogs yeah, bashir 03:13:36 No output. 03:13:40 WAT 03:14:11 quote 508 03:14:14 508) monqy: help how do I use lambdabot to send messages to people. [...around half an hour later...] @messages quicksilver said 1y 2m 18d 19h 54m 29s ago: you use @tell 03:14:21 capital B? 03:14:31 matteu: it's case insensitive 03:14:41 you're insensitive 03:14:45 well it should be 03:15:00 pastelogs monqy: help how do I use lambdabot 03:15:25 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.21140 03:16:56 22:07:02: addquote Yeah, Bashir, just sit there drinking, rather than diagnosing the carpenter mauled in that tragic bonobo accident. 03:17:10 HackEgo: YOU ARE DISAPPOINTING ME 03:17:57 pastlog addquote .*bashir 03:18:04 2011-08-26.txt:22:07:02: addquote Yeah, Bashir, just sit there drinking, rather than diagnosing the carpenter mauled in that tragic bonobo accident. 03:18:22 pastalogs 03:18:23 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: pastalogs: not found 03:19:02 pastelogs yeah, bashir 03:19:15 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.1592 03:19:41 he must have said it somewhere else 03:20:20 22:07:12: DS9 is a weird show. 03:20:37 matteu: ok that comment just after the addquote at least implies it's probably DS9 03:21:06 yay DS9 03:21:14 run pastaquote #For kmc 03:21:15 988) I think pastaquote should just quote me 03:30:50 quote Sgeo 03:30:52 52) What else is there to vim besides editing commands? \ 66) Where's the link to the log? THERE'S NO LOG. YOUR REQUEST IS SUSPICIOUS AND HAS BEEN LOGGED. \ 98) And... WTF is it doing. :( Is it sexing? \ 107) what's the data of? [...] Locations in a now deceased game called Mutat 03:50:52 void *call_cc(void *(*)(void (*)(void *) __attribute__((noreturn)))); 03:51:26 nope. 03:51:27 Bike: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it. 03:51:49 ask doesthiswork am i on candid camera 03:51:51 @ask doesthiswork am i on candid camera 03:51:52 Consider it noted. 03:52:13 declare call_cc as function (pointer to function (pointer to function (pointer to void) returning void) returning pointer to void) returning pointer to void 03:52:14 smile :) 03:52:15 doesthiswork: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it. 03:52:51 -!- NihilistDandy has joined. 03:53:21 kmc i said "nope.: 03:53:33 you've seen it; you can't un-see it. 03:54:08 what if i call/cc'd to before i saw it. what then 03:54:16 my continuations are undelimited motherfucker 03:55:01 Bike: have you seen the film Primer? 03:55:15 they have a time machine that works like call/cc 03:56:02 but does it have dynamic-wind 03:56:57 he that troubleth his own house shall inherit the dynamic-wind 03:57:38 "It turns out the solution to the medical records problem is not that no one has thought of using Redis" 03:58:28 olist 03:58:30 olist: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly 03:59:36 I am also writing some prestige class for Dungeons&Dragons game; some are corresponding to deities (some are available for two deities), so this one is Gxxyuxihuvxi 03:59:43 ifMUD is not working very well today. 04:00:24 ooh list 04:03:13 is that a well-known deity 04:03:16 or an ephemeral deity 04:04:10 run ls bin/*list* 04:04:12 bin/emptylist \ bin/instalist \ bin/list \ bin/listen \ bin/makelist \ bin/mlist \ bin/olist \ bin/pbflist \ bin/pbflistdeluxe \ bin/slist \ bin/smlist \ bin/testlist 04:04:58 It is a lesser-known deity; I have a list of a few 04:05:31 Now are you going to add alist and xlist and zlist and jlist and klist and 1list and 2list as well? 04:05:57 freelist 04:05:59 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: freelist: not found 04:06:08 * Sgeo wonders what a Free [] is, if anything 04:06:32 i'm pretty sure there should be a list for updates to the list system 04:06:48 Sgeo: It is a kind of data structure; the type (Free []) ican be a single item or a list of (Free []) so it is a kind of tree structure 04:07:41 * Sgeo wasn't particularly thinking about actually thinking about this stuff 04:09:05 Then why do you like to ask such question? 04:09:52 Because it occured to me after freelist 04:10:05 Although actually I did both in the wrong channel at first 04:10:39 I may be slightly sleep deprived 04:10:56 use after freelist 04:11:19 has anyone written a git-like version control system in shell script yet 04:11:23 i think it should be pretty easy 04:13:42 i saw a wiki in shell once. 04:16:13 Do you think TeX is the most portable programming language? I think it probably is, even in past and future too. 04:17:20 C programs probably run on more systems. 04:17:48 http://25.media.tumblr.com/b600481f5deb4a180bbad722f881b40f/tumblr_mj9s28psjK1qlh9eeo2_r1_1280.jpg has anyone noticed that polish movie posters are kind of fucked up sometimes 04:17:54 even when it's not a polish film? 04:18:01 Yes, although things in C may differ by different computers. 04:20:51 Such as, in C, size of numbers might differ, some things about pointers might differ, it might differ ASCII/EBCDIC, floating point might be different, and other things too. 04:23:40 TeX is the same on all computers, except for the amount of memory available, which still has no effect on working files. 04:26:24 What does "ephemeral deity" mean? 04:27:15 A deity that doesn't last long? 04:52:26 -!- NihilistDandy has quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com). 04:53:45 -!- TeruFSX has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 04:57:52 What do you get when you tracert ifmud.port4000.com? I cannot connect to that server at all (the service is on port 4000). 05:00:25 it's reachable here. 05:00:53 ping: 10 packets transmitted, 10 received, 0% packet loss, time 9014ms 05:01:12 That is strange; it doesn't work here! Do you know why that is? 05:01:31 It worked earlier today! 05:01:40 Not a clue. 05:01:44 What about ifmud.ziz.org? 05:02:07 It has the same IP address. 05:02:56 Is there a generic proxy service which might be used? 05:16:16 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 05:20:12 wtf at spam 05:20:17 TEST QUESTION:....GOOD 05:20:17 ANSWER: ........BLESS 05:20:32 What does that even mean as part of payment information? 05:21:05 Have you tried praying? 05:21:29 'Thank you for your question. In certain countries, you may be required to provide the answer to a test question when picking up your Quick Cash payment. This is an additional step to ensure that your payment is transferred securely. You can find this information by examining your Statement of Earnings found under the 'details' link of the 'Payment issued' line on your Payments page. The answer to the test question will always be the 10-digit 05:21:29 number labeled 'Customer ID' found in the top right corner of your Statement of Earnings.' 05:22:01 BLESS is officially a 10-digit number. 05:30:44 Sgeo: Thanks! 05:36:14 yw 05:38:50 is that some kind of phishing to get your customer id? 05:39:04 That sounds like it's talking about a particular company's QuickCash payments. 05:39:26 I found a working HTTP CONNECT type proxy to connect there. 05:39:31 A company that uses the "Customer ID" as the answer to the question. 05:40:33 I would think in general it's just an arbitrary challenge/response pair. 05:42:09 Yes, you were quoting from Google's AdSense help page. 05:42:42 (So there's no reason for BLESS to be a 10-digit number.) 05:43:01 hmm, the title "Hacking Secret Ciphers with Python" makes it sound like a really dumb book 05:43:45 -!- conehead has quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com). 05:48:55 Also, my latest Western Union spam uses either TODAY/NOW or When/Now as the Q/A pair. 05:50:03 TODAY/NOW for the $7000 they're going to send (for reals), just as soon as I first send$100 to them with the When/Now quetion. 05:50:52 Oh, $7000 per day, for a total of$1.8 million. 05:50:55 I don't understand any of that, maybe I don't read enough spam 05:53:13 "-- but they said that you have to send $165dollar for your transfer permit --" "HERE IS THE INFORMATION FOR YOU TO SEND THE MONEY -- Amount$100 dollar". 05:53:42 But is it $165 or$100! This is all too confusing! There goes my millions, I give up. 05:58:40 shachaf: xkcd today is about a security property that i'm always talking about 05:58:52 so from now on, whenever i talk about it, i'm making an, 'xkcd reference' 05:59:01 isn't it great 05:59:12 What card games can you play? 05:59:15 one day xkcd will talk about how xkcd does things and then they become 'xkcd references' 05:59:19 and then where will kmc be 05:59:31 kmc will have been xkcd all along. 05:59:39 gasp 06:00:04 i am jack's smirking revenge 06:00:16 [obligatory xkcd](http://xkcd.com/1200/) 06:00:21 you know it's coming 06:00:46 it's pretty great how obligatory links are never obligated, by anybody 06:01:27 zzo38: solitaire 06:01:53 kmc: eventually -everything- will become an xkcd reference, as xkcd will expand to fill all possible statements 06:01:55 zzo38: i can play Who Can Throw A Card The Furthest 06:02:25 kmc: I suppose it doesn't matter what kinds of cards you use, then 06:02:36 kmc: how far can you throw? 06:02:45 oklofok: don't know 06:02:53 zzo38: well the size and shape and material properties do matter 06:03:46 * kmc -> sleep 06:03:46 'night 06:03:47 kmc: ♞ 06:04:37 horse 06:04:48 is that an xkcd reference 06:05:40 why does it matter if you're making an xkcd reference, isn't the point that they learn about the stupidity of the world, not that they learn how great you are at noticing it 06:05:57 or are xkcd references embarrassing even to good xkcd comics 06:06:17 because it's a comic and shouldn't be funny and that comic isn't funny so it fails or something 06:06:22 *should 06:07:15 my sentences are too complicated for me 06:07:26 i will not listen to myself anymore 06:07:27 bye 06:07:56 ok. 06:09:21 Bike: hello Bike 06:09:27 do you want a hug 06:09:36 * Fiora hugs Bike 06:09:45 * Bike hugs back 06:09:48 are you all alive? 06:10:11 wow Fiora 06:10:21 i can't believe you just did that 06:10:58 w-what >_< 06:11:29 i was all, like, "hey Bike want a hug" and stuff 06:11:34 and you just ran in 06:12:05 hugtheftu 06:12:17 you gotta act fast shachaf 06:12:17 it's okay i forgive you 06:12:23 i'm not just giving these things away they're precious 06:13:17 like, dude, i didn't ask for a hug i offered one 06:13:23 well actually i just asked if you want one 06:13:30 ok let's forget about the whole deal 06:13:32 * pikhq_ steals a hug from Bike 06:13:34 OK. 06:13:36 Agh fuck 06:13:57 bike I hope you don't dislike my hugs 06:14:16 no 06:14:47 should i play "Fiora's self-doubt" 06:15:12 there's no way to win. 06:15:26 ok people 06:15:28 i have a question 06:15:33 a serious, #esoteric question 06:15:36 I love those. 06:15:56 Bike: no it's not a normal #esoteric person it's augur 06:16:03 I like augurs. 06:16:06 he just tries to waste your time with linguistics questions and other augur nonsense 06:16:19 im writing a paper. in it i have a quote that includes a citation. should i include an entry in my own bibliography for that citation or not? 06:16:41 Mi malŝat' lingvantojn! 06:16:44 yeah 06:16:49 Hmm. Tricky. 06:17:06 also he oklofok 06:17:16 hey* 06:17:16 :( 06:17:19 Bike: wait you don't like them or you do <_> 06:17:29 I don't dislike them, I said. 06:18:04 Fiora: Bike likes your hugs don't worry ... ..... 06:18:17 srsly guise 06:18:30 oh! 06:18:31 except by hugs i mean the piece of text that goes "* Fiora hugs Bike" 06:18:36 not actual hugs 06:18:38 fiora... 06:18:39 hmm 06:18:40 because you can't give those on the internet 06:18:41 fiora 06:18:44 what :< 06:19:06 aha! 06:19:17 fiora is the name of one of the main characters from max headroom 06:19:29 if it were spoken by an urban yoof 06:19:41 it's also the name of a fire emblem character >_< 06:21:17 :) 06:21:21 im just making connections 06:22:12 augur: have you considered going away 06:22:41 shachaf: have you considered comiting suicide? 06:22:54 it would certainly improve your attitude. 06:22:55 ;-; 06:23:07 Not cool, bro. 06:23:24 You've suggested it to me before. 06:23:26 Oh well. 06:23:28 -!- shachaf has left. 06:23:46 shachaf has an irrational dislike for me and harasses me any time we're in the same channel together for no apparent reason. 06:24:04 Don't tell people to kill themselves, ever. 06:24:12 no clue why. one day he just decided to start badmouthing me. 06:24:49 The hell. 06:25:13 At first I thought it was just a joke, but um. what/ 06:25:24 I've always liked having you around. 06:25:38 i like being around. 06:25:46 um. maybe have you like. considered not telling people to kill themselves 06:25:48 i dont, however, like being harassed by shitbags like shachaf for no reason. 06:26:25 i dont even have to be talking and he'll start bad mouthing me for being a linguist 06:26:49 and not in the tongue in cheek kind of way but in the malicious "a linguist fucked my girlfriend" kind of way. 06:28:26 thats all i get from that asshole, and we dont even ever talk. so fuck him. 06:29:25 Have you considered /ignore? 06:30:26 that would just let him badmouth me unimpinged. 06:31:21 unimpinged? unimpeded? whatever work i intended, anyway. 06:31:48 * pikhq_ raises a finger to Youtube 06:32:04 i dont know what that even means :( 06:32:27 Fucking Youtube. Keeps dropping connection on me. 06:32:48 o 06:33:02 Making watching videos an interesting experience wherein I get about a minute of video. 06:42:57 augur: I'm getting the feeling that it's not for no reason 06:43:18 dont confuse cause and effect, doesthiswork. 06:46:54 iterated interactions don't have cause and effect they have nash equilibriums 06:48:05 only in games. 06:48:45 so whats new in esoland anyway 06:48:54 any interesting new esolangs of note? 06:49:18 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 06:50:54 Well, I've been working on a Chip8 emulator today. 07:09:16 Is there a kind of (symbolic) logic which describes well-founded Z-machine object trees? 07:11:15 (Each object can have or not have a parent, sibling, and child. "Well-founded" means the following: (a) An object with a sibling also has a parent. (b) An object is the parent of exactly those objects in the sibling list of its child. (c) Each object can be given a level n, such that parentless objects have level 0 and all children of a level n object have level n+1.) 07:12:40 (Note that the "child" the object has is the first child and then the sibling means the next one after that. The sibling should not loop.) 07:19:33 pikhq_: Why not Chip16? Too complicated? 07:22:22 FreeFull: Totally unrelated to that reddit thread actually. Friend of mine and I were discussing the Chip8 in particular. 07:22:47 What reddit thread? 07:23:21 The one about Chip16. 07:23:41 Besides, if I wanted to emulate a higher-power nicer system, well, I've already done that. 07:23:47 cmako is pretty sweet. 07:24:41 RogerTheGreat already implemented the mako vm for his chip8 07:25:56 Vice versa. 07:25:58 I just want a good Chip16 emulator that runs on linux =P 07:26:07 And I never saw that reddit thread 07:26:08 Also, yeah, that's what started me on it. 07:28:32 There is an ngemu thread where it originated 07:31:51 If it is written in SDL then it can easily be ported to other operating systems. 07:36:12 zzo38: What is? 07:36:15 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 07:36:51 FreeFull: Well, nearly anything in SDL. 07:37:31 I don't think Chip16 has an SDL port 07:37:35 Or a C compiler that targets it 07:38:24 Well, anything with SDL, anyways; I don't know what all of them are. 07:40:26 Mako is a programming language + VM and has multiple implementations 07:40:36 I'm sure there is at least one that uses SDL 07:41:50 -!- epicmonkey has joined. 07:43:59 -!- ais523 has quit. 07:49:03 -!- impomatic has left. 07:50:18 -!- kmc has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 07:50:31 -!- kmc has joined. 08:02:46 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 08:03:23 -!- copumpkin has joined. 08:05:58 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:09:06 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 08:15:33 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 08:15:42 -!- FreeFull has quit. 08:22:30 -!- c00kiemon5ter has quit (Quit: c00kiemon5ter). 08:24:23 -!- c00kiemon5ter has joined. 08:25:47 -!- bdh-khumreyo has quit. 08:26:35 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 08:27:15 -!- copumpkin has joined. 08:32:51 -!- variable has joined. 08:33:45 -!- Jafet has joined. 08:37:04 -!- c00kiemon5ter has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 08:37:56 -!- c00kiemon5ter has joined. 08:43:40 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 09:01:21 -!- carado has joined. 09:06:16 -!- c00kiemon5ter has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 09:10:03 -!- c00kiemon5ter has joined. 09:12:18 -!- hagb4rd has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 09:13:09 -!- epicmonkey has joined. 09:35:59 -!- carado_ has joined. 09:57:34 -!- carado_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 10:32:49 -!- carado has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:34:54 -!- carado has joined. 11:01:45 -!- carado_ has joined. 11:05:49 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 11:13:43 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 11:43:07 -!- Koen_ has joined. 11:43:51 -!- nooodl has joined. 12:19:36 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 12:20:13 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Changing host). 12:20:14 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 12:22:56 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 12:32:02 From: IEEE Spectrum Tech Alert Subject: Robots Are Not Killing Jobs, Says a Roboticist 12:32:09 I'm not sure that's an entirely unbiased source. 12:32:26 I suppose it's better than "Robots Are Not Killing Jobs, Says a Robot". 12:32:46 ("We're not killing jobs, we're killing people" was the actual quote.) 12:32:57 ROBOTS KILLED JOBS 12:33:36 should I say "oh, poor jobs" ? 12:34:07 I don't think Jobs was very poor. 12:34:10 I read that subject line as "our robots still suck" 12:35:01 Other highlights from the same mailing: LASER FUSION'S BRIGHTEST HOPE well I suppose that'd be pretty bright yes 12:35:29 "WOULD THE MOB REALLY BREAK YOUR VIRTUAL KNEECAPS WITH COUNTERFEIT CHIPS?" 12:35:46 I suppse they have a specifically hired headline-writer there. 12:35:59 haha 12:36:11 I bumped on that article too, a couple of days ago 12:36:44 the site it was on has two more sites that each prompt you to look at the others 12:42:18 Robots are Not Killing Jobs, He's Already Dead, Says a Roboticist 12:42:54 Robots are Not Killing Jobs, I Just Don't Feel Like Getting One, Says a Hobbyist Roboticist 12:43:36 Beep boop bee-boop beep, Says a Robot 12:43:52 Robots are Not Killing Jobs, Says a Terrified Roboticist Working in a Lab Full of Killer Robots 12:44:05 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 12:44:28 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 12:47:40 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 12:47:57 hello 12:56:58 hi 12:59:52 Robots are Not Killing Jobs, says an abducted-by-robots Roboticist, who's been missing for three years 13:07:00 -!- Joop has joined. 13:07:18 Hello 13:08:08 Robots are Not Killing Joops, Says a Roboticist 13:08:40 -!- boily has joined. 13:09:10 (I'll let someone else do a welcome there.) 13:10:19 WeLcOmE 13:10:20 thanks 13:10:21 WeLcOmE To tHe iNtErNaTiOnAl hUb fOr eSoTeRiC PrOgRaMmInG LaNgUaGe dEsIgN AnD DePlOyMeNt! FoR MoRe iNfOrMaTiOn, ChEcK OuT OuR WiKi: HtTp://eSoLaNgS.OrG/WiKi/mAiN_PaGe. (fOr tHe oThEr kInD Of eSoTeRiCa, TrY #eSoTeRiC On iRc.dAl.nEt.) 13:11:05 -!- variable has changed nick to trout. 13:13:40 AnotherTest, rude 13:13:44 relcome Joop 13:13:46 ​Joop: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) 13:14:21 Can nesting in all its forms be eliminated? 13:14:55 run welcome there | rainwords 13:14:58 ​there: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) 13:15:24 I didn't know about relcome 13:18:23 if in calculus nesting can be eliminated by the model of reverse polish notation, can it be eliminated in program flow too? 13:21:33 But nesting in calculus isn't really the same thing? 13:22:10 Unless you're not talking about things like (a + b * (c + d)) 13:22:46 (which would be equivalent to a b c d + * + 13:22:48 ) 13:24:03 that's clearly not the same thing as for (...) (for(...) ...) 13:26:17 I'm not sure what nesting in program flow means, here. But take for example some sort of cellular automaton, I don't know what would be especially "nested" there, and they can compute the usual stuff. 13:26:48 yeah I'm not exactly sure what I want to bring up :) 13:28:08 mmm I'm wondering if designing a 'guess the number' program 13:28:52 the core guessing will be in a loop that exists till the right number is guessed 13:29:33 but outside that loop will be a loop that will ask if you want to play again Y/N 13:31:30 the guessing part of the program is nested within the 'ask again' part 13:32:40 -!- matteu has left. 13:35:22 can I put this 'ask again' on a stack for later use? Are there limitations with such model, do you need multiple stacks with complex programs? 13:35:50 why would you want to do that? 13:35:58 Just thinking out loud here, sorry 13:36:36 You could make the program execute itself again (recursion) 13:37:03 if the language you are using doesn't support nested loops 13:37:19 (although it might not support recursion either) 13:39:41 -!- FreeFull has joined. 13:39:41 -!- FreeFull has quit (Changing host). 13:39:41 -!- FreeFull has joined. 13:40:39 good morning humans! just to be sure that all of us are proper first-class meatbags, please solve one of these: http://crapcha.com/ 13:41:40 I work on a little esolang that has commands for duplicating next element, moving next element to end of program, getting last element of the program, swapping next 2 elements. 13:42:35 elements may contain 1 or more commands 13:46:47 so you can group commands in an element but there are no other possibility to group 13:49:12 nevermind 13:49:37 -!- Joop has quit (Quit: Page closed). 14:03:06 -!- PonyPonyPony has changed nick to Gregor. 14:05:44 -!- joop has joined. 14:07:08 -!- joop has quit (Client Quit). 14:11:29 -!- carado_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 14:11:51 -!- carado has joined. 14:14:09 I was about to say that it sounds a bit tag-systemy. 14:17:37 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 14:28:07 -!- ogrom has joined. 14:30:42 hey guys i found a good scp: http://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/scp-1348 14:31:45 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 14:32:24 -!- copumpkin has joined. 14:34:20 oklofok: I feel like there's a whole world of possibilities in robozzle that I haven't unraveled yet 14:34:22 http://s15.postimg.org/4p207q28b/Capture_d_e_cran_2013_04_17_a_16_31_24.png 14:37:59 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 14:38:36 -!- copumpkin has joined. 14:44:58 -!- ThatOtherPerson has joined. 14:53:03 -!- metasepia has joined. 14:59:11 -!- bengt_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 14:59:38 -!- whtspc has joined. 14:59:48 -!- whtspc has quit (Client Quit). 15:01:18 that looks like an easy stack exercise 15:01:58 -!- bengt_ has joined. 15:05:15 tromp_: I figured as well 15:05:39 s/well/much 15:06:08 i was puzzled by Elevator 15:07:40 I was elevated by puzzle! 15:18:05 ah, got it finally 15:25:11 Koen_: did you solve that already? 15:25:23 yeah 15:25:26 it was MAGIC 15:25:39 that sounded awfully hard, like there was something about robozzle I didn't know about 15:25:43 and then tromp_ said it was easy 15:25:46 and then it was easy 15:26:18 trying Up then Down now 15:26:18 next one was about browsing a tree, using the call stack in a similar manner to know how long the branches were 15:26:41 most of the squares are useless right? 15:26:43 well 15:26:49 not most but the ones under you 15:26:59 or is it harder than that 15:27:20 yes 15:27:28 I didn't use the down part 15:27:43 oklofok: I'm here now http://s21.postimg.org/5fcjavaif/Capture_d_e_cran_2013_04_17_a_17_26_44.png 15:28:11 I got all stars except for those in the upper part of the "2" 15:29:52 okay that's a finite state machine exercise i suppose 15:29:54 -!- ThatOtherPerson has quit (Quit: Leaving). 15:31:04 not sure what you mean by that 15:31:14 well 15:31:19 that you don't need a stack 15:31:56 ah, right 15:48:53 elliott: did you try to guess my nickserv password 15:49:05 kmc: what 15:49:12 if I did I don't remember it :P 15:49:25 o no also shachaf left 15:49:44 oh boy 15:49:57 time to read the log 15:50:21 oh well it was a while ago 15:50:22 03:50 -NickServ(NickServ@services.)- 2 failed logins since last login. 15:50:22 03:50 -NickServ(NickServ@services.)- Last failed attempt from: elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott on Mar 07 02:39:22 2013. 15:50:39 maybe you said something was your password as a joke and i tried to ghost you just in case 15:50:43 i do that a lot 15:50:58 alternatively maybe you are actually me 15:51:10 but no i honestly don't remember 15:51:17 next time i will heck your aim more successfully 15:51:36 02:36:53: /msg nickserv ghost elliott 15:51:36 02:37:08: kmc: whats your password 15:51:36 02:38:05: bonghits4jesus 15:51:40 log of 2013-03-07 15:51:45 mystery solved 15:51:49 02:38:42: i didn't believe you but tried to ghost you nonetheless 15:51:49 02:38:47: basic principles of professionalism 15:51:49 02:38:54: you sure did 15:51:56 02:39:06: did it tell you 15:51:56 02:39:11: you're one of the worst sleepers i've ever seen. 15:51:56 02:39:16: did it say hey kmc im nickserv the snitchand that elliott guy is the WORST 15:51:59 02:39:16: nobody will guess my password because i used the numeral '4' instead of the word 'four' 15:52:02 02:39:24: yes 15:52:48 IS MY NAME CLEARED NOW, KMC???? 16:00:53 i think kmc is preparing to sue me as we speak 16:04:14 -!- GOMADWarrior has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 16:05:06 yes 16:05:08 very good 16:07:47 I've forgotten my RoboZZle account. :/ :\ 16:08:41 Somewhere within 7 Mio. Years somebody eventually will have the same password as you . 16:09:10 if everybody only has one password, of course. 16:09:25 There is no "I'm stupid and lost my password" button in the login form. 16:09:37 to be realistic it's probably somewhere within 1 Mio. Years. 16:10:00 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 16:10:06 I don't even know if I'm this "fizzie", but it sounds reasonably possible from the list of solved puzzels. 16:10:38 -!- copumpkin has joined. 16:26:45 -!- ogrom has quit (Quit: Left). 16:27:15 -!- Bike has joined. 16:31:17 run echo ' it's that place where they all wear kilts and chase haggises around whilst warding off the loch ness monster with bagpipes' >wisdom/scotland 16:31:19 bash: -c: line 0: unexpected EOF while looking for matching '' \ bash: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file 16:31:25 run echo " it's that place where they all wear kilts and chase haggises around whilst warding off the loch ness monster with bagpipes" >wisdom/scotland 16:31:29 No output. 16:31:42 -!- Bike_ has joined. 16:34:29 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 16:35:51 -!- ogrom has joined. 16:38:16 -!- Bike_ has changed nick to Bike. 16:39:44 how could you forget the deep fried mars bars 16:39:55 and the having your oil money stolen by england 16:40:13 the context was "what americans know about scotland" 16:40:28 "if they can even remember it's not the same as ireland" 16:41:16 http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mbjunxHrNp1qzeo2zo1_500.jpg like this? 16:42:18 oh 16:44:30 (Do people really confuse the two? Like is it really not just another "stupid american" joke?) 16:46:57 "People won't equate you with a natural disaster, ma'am." "Really, Amy? Cause I've met some people. Okay, real people. And I gotta tell ya: a lot of 'em are fucking idiots." 16:47:42 I confess my geographical knowledge of the US states is quite poor. 16:48:09 it's pretty boring knowledge 16:48:21 americans who grow up on the coasts often have a pretty truncated understanding of the middle of the country 16:50:13 america is too big to understand IMO 16:50:17 sort of like graham's number 16:51:20 yeah 16:51:28 I've heard some Americans are too big to understand, too. 16:52:24 i'm going to assume that's a joke about walt whitman 16:56:19 The united US states 16:56:29 03:20:37: matteu: ok that comment just after the addquote at least implies it's probably DS9 16:56:32 03:21:06: yay DS9 16:56:35 oh neither are here 16:56:43 it was about a dwarf fortress dwarf named after the DS9 bashir 16:57:36 04:11:19: has anyone written a git-like version control system in shell script yet 16:57:39 04:11:23: i think it should be pretty easy 16:57:41 kmc: yes, git 16:57:46 lololololol 17:01:47 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:02:19 -!- calamari has joined. 17:05:09 so is there no rule against telling people to commit suicide in here 17:05:13 b/c that would be a pretty good rule 17:05:18 (hi i finished logreading) 17:05:49 is the rule that fuck that? because fuck that 17:06:11 oh shachaf is still gone 17:07:09 (the joke is the implication that this channel would have rules) 17:08:54 @tell matteu since you probably don't logread, the bashir in question was my doctor in dwarf fortress 17:08:54 Consider it noted. 17:09:27 pastalog 17:09:29 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/bin/pastalog: Permission denied \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /hackenv/bin/pastalog: cannot execute: Permission denied 17:09:40 Um okay 17:09:46 run ls -l bin/pastalog 17:09:47 ​-rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 19 Mar 31 19:00 bin/pastalog 17:09:56 file bin/pastalog 17:09:58 bin/pastalog: ASCII text 17:10:05 cat bin/pastalog 17:10:07 exec pastlog pasta 17:10:11 cool 17:10:17 run chmod +x bin/pastalog 17:10:21 No output. 17:10:24 pastalog 17:10:53 2013-01-23.txt:12:12:59: pastaquote 17:11:14 run ls bin/*pasta* 17:11:16 bin/pastalog \ bin/pastaquote 17:11:24 cat bin/pastaquote 17:11:26 ​#!/bin/sh \ exec quote "pasta|spaghetti|macaroni|maccheroni|ravioli|fusilli|tortellini|noodle|tagliatelle" 17:11:37 -!- zzo38 has joined. 17:11:42 pastaquote 17:11:44 988) I think pastaquote should just quote me 17:11:51 Deep. 17:12:07 fizzie: i don't suppose you might consider doing something about this. getting a channel regular to leave because you told them to kill themselves is out of line. and this isn't the first time he's done it to shachaf 17:14:39 -!- itsy has joined. 17:21:08 -!- Bike_ has joined. 17:23:49 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 17:31:58 -!- ogrom has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 17:33:36 -!- IAm_thor2 has joined. 17:33:36 -!- IAm_thor2 has left. 17:40:10 -!- impomatic has joined. 17:42:13 -!- ThatOtherPerson has joined. 17:42:16 -!- IAm_thor2 has joined. 17:42:16 -!- IAm_thor2 has left. 17:43:51 12:35:29: "WOULD THE MOB REALLY BREAK YOUR VIRTUAL KNEECAPS WITH COUNTERFEIT CHIPS?" 17:43:56 btw this made me think of chips as in chips chips 17:43:59 the kind you eat 17:44:02 not the american kind 17:44:03 -!- ThatOtherPerson has quit (Client Quit). 17:44:19 * Bike_ eats american kind 17:44:21 -!- Bike_ has changed nick to Bike. 17:45:19 american types of types 17:46:20 I don't really consider a "why don't you kill yourself" reply per se so out of line, to a (basically) "why don't you shut up" comment that, as far as I can tell, didn't really have any particular reason behind it. Certainly -- based on a quick grep -- there seems to be a well-established channel tradition of telling other people to kill themselves, even if this instance was more malicious than ... 17:46:26 ... usual. 17:46:27 If you like, I can "do something" in the sense that I issue an official proclamation that requests that people stick to civil discussion on interesting matters and avoid personal attacks of any kind. I'm sure that'll take care of everything. 17:46:31 In any case, I'm not sure what "doing something" would be, since the only administrative tool around here is the banhammer, and I don't think there's a strong tradition of permanently banning people that don't get along with other people, just outright prolonged harrassment. If even that. 17:47:00 It's kind of like how politics works, I understand? It's all strongly worded notes of protest. 17:47:47 -!- IAm_thor2 has joined. 17:47:49 that's how diplomacy works, politics not so much 17:48:01 -!- IAm_thor2 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 17:48:01 a “do something” thing could be me filling out the missing pieces of my coördinates/body weight list, and use that to deploy some kind of neurotoxic agent to disrespectful members. 17:48:13 (a neurotoxic substance that makes people behave well, mind you) 17:48:17 Could you tell people (in an oply way) not to tell people to kill themselves? 17:48:50 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o fizzie. 17:48:52 Don't tell people to kill themselves, it's not cool. 17:48:54 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: -o fizzie. 17:49:09 i mean, whe it happens ¬_¬ 17:49:24 (But, really, people say "kill yourself" to other people here all the time.) 17:49:41 pastelogs kill yourself 17:49:49 egh commands 17:49:54 run ls bin/past* 17:50:02 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.9056 17:50:04 bin/pastalog \ bin/pastaquote \ bin/paste \ bin/pastefortunes \ bin/pastekarma \ bin/pastelog \ bin/pastelogs \ bin/pastenquotes \ bin/pastequotes \ bin/pastewisdom \ bin/pastlog 17:50:12 You did it right. 17:50:25 i certainly said nothing about permabans... anyway general insults are quite categorically different from telling people to kill themselves, especially when you separate things said in jest, among friends, which is rather different (esp. when a repeat incident) 17:50:29 shrug 17:50:39 logs are one thing, I'm sure I've done it myself; I've done lots of things I'd rather not 17:50:51 Well, there's that; normally the tone's quite different, yes. 17:51:47 not saying anything about what shachaf said himself or whether that deserved any response or wahtever, but I don't think you can say it's on the same level 17:52:12 "o well" -- kmc, Greek philosopher (2013) 17:52:34 κμχ 17:52:49 kux 17:52:50 Why don't you go perform a felo-de-se 17:53:37 Is that something you can eat? 17:53:47 χ, not ς? 17:54:07 is that a final sigma 17:54:18 it is a final sigma. 17:54:24 Keegan McAllister and the Final Sigma 17:54:25 boily: I figured since it comes from "McAllister" it should be the hard sound 17:54:30 Final things are not allowed in here 17:54:36 but χ isn't right either 17:54:43 i guess just κμκ 17:54:45 looks dumb 17:55:07 κoκ 17:55:31 kmc's REAL name is actually Kay Emcee 17:55:32 looks culinar. 17:55:51 MC kmc 17:56:03 master of ceremonies 17:56:23 and i am Eli Ott 17:56:53 my first name is of greek origin, but trying to fit boily into that sounds painful. 17:56:57 el Liott 17:57:23 hm there is an awful lot of spam on the wiki 17:57:28 perhaps I should change tack and make fizzie an admin instead. 17:57:31 he's El Liot the Third. 17:58:50 7nick φιζζιε 17:58:58 -!- IAm_thor2 has joined. 17:59:04 Tnick??? 17:59:06 -!- IAm_thor2 has left. 17:59:43 oh. Shift-7 on a finnish keyboard. 17:59:51 no shift-7 is & 17:59:55 how wrong can you possibly be 18:00:07 wait what is that IAm_thor2 thing. presumably a bot from the hostname 18:00:37 I know that Shift-7 is &, my keyboard knows that Shift-7 is &, but why fizzie's tnick? 18:01:03 The 7foo "oh look I tried to make an IRC command but typoed, how amusing" "joke" is quite common on Finnish IRCnet channels. 18:01:04 can you do greek letters with the default XCompose setup 18:01:05 i forget 18:01:09 Didn't think of keyboard layouts. 18:01:25 / is what it's in ours. Ours is kind of strange. 18:01:56 Phantom_Hoover: i don't know of a way 18:02:06 Typically it's used as "7msg someone something salacious". 18:02:11 note to self, get a better xcompose setup 18:03:09 7msg fizzie something salacious 18:03:14 ΞΚομποσε 18:03:31 č°Ḿṕ°ßə 18:03:42 č°Ḿṕ°ßə ĸəÿ 18:03:52 (Also, is there no Unicode for $\varphi$, I like that much more than $\phi$, which is what φ here looks like. I guess there shouldn't be one, but when has that stopped Unicode?) 18:04:13 what is the difference again 18:04:33 \phi is a circle with a line through it iirc 18:04:37 $\phi$ is the one that you get if you just put | on top of a o, while $\varphi$ is the loopy kinda thing. 18:04:52 i have the loopy one 18:04:55 what font are you using 18:04:56 me also 18:05:12 http://detexify.kirelabs.org.s3.amazonaws.com/images/latex/2bf9aa2da649fb42fb7290ca2d861d1c.png <- $\varphi$ 18:05:14 -!- Taneb has joined. 18:05:38 hello Taneb 18:05:39 http://detexify.kirelabs.org.s3.amazonaws.com/images/latex/3336b533e43ccfa8df784d507b171627.png <- $\phi$ 18:05:41 go kill yourself 18:05:42 Hi 18:05:50 ...that is sudden 18:05:51 -_- 18:05:53 I'd rather not 18:05:53 And this is just the DejaVu Sans Mono, I think. If it has Greek in it. 18:06:16 Phantom_Hoover: Don't tell people to kill themselves, I hear it's not cool. 18:06:23 (I'm helping!) 18:06:25 fizzie: there must be some maths paper that uses $\phi$ and $\varphi$ to mean different things, which would be enough for Unicode 18:06:25 fizzie, good job 18:06:31 could use a bit more conviction though 18:06:38 cf http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematical_Alphanumeric_Symbols 18:06:43 Phantom_Hoover: Next time I'll drop "I hear". 18:07:00 Maybe I should've looked there. 18:07:01 Great improvement! 18:07:16 -_____- 18:07:43 bike is suffering from rapid chin expansion 18:07:46 That's funny, it's the loopy phi there, even for the normal one. 18:07:51 well i guess that's not really a chin 18:07:59 * boily stretches bike face 18:08:02 (FOR SCIENCE!) 18:08:12 -_______________________- 18:08:30 * elliott pushes Bike's eyes open 18:08:35 what horrors await 18:08:39 There was some trick in gucharmap that could be used to tell which font it's currently using to render which symbol. 18:08:49 Taneb, (we're testing fizzie's "tell people not to tell people to kill themselves" protocols) 18:09:03 Makes sense 18:09:05 "in mathematical contexts, the loopy glyph is preferred, to contrast with U+03D5 GREEK PHI SYMBOL" is what it says about regular Greek small letter phi. 18:09:10 I had a picnic today with my friends 18:10:02 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 18:11:05 ◊_______________________◊ 18:11:25 help. 18:11:33 jesus christ elliott 18:11:39 apply pressure evenly when jamming eyes open 18:12:10 Hi :-) 18:12:48 addquote ◊_______________________◊ help. jesus christ elliott apply pressure evenly when jamming eyes open 18:12:52 1034) ◊_______________________◊ help. jesus christ elliott apply pressure evenly when jamming eyes open 18:13:18 quote bike 18:13:20 854) Bike: Your client colours people? it would be pretty boring to see everyone as white, i get that enough in real life \ 857) "damn, my port of ghc to php isn't properly taking javascript booleans into account" \ 877) i bet a blog post complaining about ");});});" syntax in JavaScript and comparing it unfavorably t 18:15:10 Bike: so do all bikes have eyes like that 18:15:29 obviously 18:16:11 http://arxiv.org/abs/1302.1886 18:16:21 -!- IAm_thor2 has joined. 18:16:21 -!- IAm_thor2 has left. 18:18:46 "-- demonstrating that human collective behavior is consistent with the predictions of simplified models." Sounds like psychohistory. 18:18:47 quote 877 18:18:48 877) i bet a blog post complaining about ");});});" syntax in JavaScript and comparing it unfavorably to Lisp would get approximately one billion comments on hacker news but at what cost? your very soul, kmc! 18:19:35 is hacker news more javascript than lisp? 18:20:46 also: http://mattbierbaum.github.io/moshpits.js/ 18:21:34 Those semicolons could be dropped, at least 18:23:58 Taneb: have you considered: dude 18:24:07 I have not 18:24:20 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +v Taneb. 18:24:23 consider deeply. 18:24:49 ... 18:24:54 I've just been voiced, haven't I 18:25:07 no 18:27:02 The Voice of Taneb That Shines in the Night 18:27:16 (or day. we're having a pretty sunny day now, for a change.) 18:29:05 the voice of taneb that shines in the day but not quite as much 18:30:15 Treatise On The Frightening Discovery That Walls & Birds Don't Exist 18:33:58 is there a name for the idea that if you don't remember something it hasn't actually happened? 18:35:24 naïvety 18:53:07 that's called "being dumb" hth 18:58:16 -!- itsy has left. 19:01:59 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:03:36 -!- augur has joined. 19:07:49 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 19:08:29 -!- copumpkin has joined. 19:13:09 -!- calamari has quit (Quit: Bye). 19:17:30 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 19:19:14 -!- Bike has joined. 19:22:01 does anyone know any good workarounds for universe inconsistencies in coq 19:23:16 Magic 19:31:56 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: -v Taneb. 19:32:50 ~dice 6 2 19:32:51 2 6 --- Sum = 8 19:33:03 ~dice 10 5 19:33:03 6 8 10 1 9 --- Sum = 34 19:33:08 according to my trusty steed, I must be voiced. 19:33:25 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +v metasepia. 19:33:33 *facepalm* 19:33:38 I really had it coming. 19:34:24 oh well. that means only one thing... 19:35:14 HARK YE, YOU HEATHENS! BEHAVE YOUR PUNY SELVES OR INCUR THE WRATH OF THE ERROR(1) ON YOUR MISSHAPEN BODY! 19:36:07 ~eval 2 + 2 19:36:10 Error (1): 19:36:27 ~METAR UTAR 19:36:27 --- Possible commands: dice, duck, echo, eval, fortune, metar, ping, yi 19:36:27 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: -v metasepia. 19:36:32 insufficiently wisdomic. 19:37:02 ah, that fell good. thanks elliott. now let's never do that again. 19:38:54 -!- ais523 has joined. 19:43:10 @messages? 19:43:10 Sorry, no messages today. 19:43:29 Hi ais523, how are you doing? 19:43:37 Taneb: I've just woken up 19:43:47 That's... probably not good 19:43:51 When did you go to sleep 19:43:56 @localtime ais523 19:43:57 Local time for ais523 is Wed Apr 17 20:43:56 2013 19:44:05 Taneb: around 10am 19:44:18 9 hours sleep, not that bad, then 19:44:27 You're somewhat in the wrong time zone 19:44:35 But other than that... 19:44:43 Taneb: well I revolve around the world over time 19:45:00 I'm in the correct timezone occasionally 19:45:02 but not normally 19:45:22 Don't you, like, have a job for which you need to appear respectable for? 19:47:06 if I'm clothed, that means I'm at work, or not changing armour at the moment. 19:47:33 Taneb: he's a grad student 19:47:40 they don't appear respectable no matter what they do, so why try? 19:47:48 ~fortune 19:47:48 "Beware of programmers carrying screwdrivers." 19:47:49 -- Chip Salzenberg 19:47:50 elliott, makes sense 19:48:00 On another note, has the favicon for Wikipedia changed? 19:48:02 actually is ais523 still a grad student 19:48:03 and yes 19:48:13 ais523: let us know when we have to start calling you dr ais523 19:48:48 elliott: OK, I will 19:49:05 I'm currently in the fourth of four ¾-years 19:49:14 due to the PhD being part time 19:49:16 ~metar essa 19:49:17 --- Station not found! 19:49:20 ~metar ESSA 19:49:21 ESSA 171920Z 22012KT CAVOK 09/00 Q1012 R88/09//95 NOSIG 19:49:45 ais523: what are you working on these days? 19:50:06 elliott: PhD/job-wise? or hobby-wise? 19:50:20 ais523: both 19:50:55 elliott: in terms of my PhD, I'm busy trying to write up the categorical and game semantics for ICA-like language rigorously 19:51:07 and in a way that doesn't annoy category theorists 19:51:15 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 19:51:23 it's easy to make a rigorous semantics, but hard to do it in a way that won't annoy people 19:51:30 (which is important when you want them to mark your work) 19:52:36 for the teaching, it's the last week of the easter holiday 19:52:37 ais523: categorical semantics are interesting, I should learn about them sometime 19:52:52 so I want to give the students some advice on how to do exams next week 19:53:09 in theory they've all done A-levels and the like, but given that they're coming from all over the world and all sorts of education systems 19:53:16 some of them might not realise how exams actually work 19:53:42 and many more might not realise how they work at Birmingham University (things like "always bring proof of ID") 19:54:23 also talking about things like "if a question's only worth one mark, you're wasting your time if you write an essay in response", and talking about how their degree class is calculated 19:54:33 in terms of hobbies, I'm mostly working on Pokémon at the moment 19:54:38 so jsondb, together with just playtesting 19:54:39 ais523, if I was a student at Birmingham, and brought my Australian passport, and spoke in a crap Aussie accent, would I get kicked out 19:54:54 Taneb: you're technically Australian? 19:54:58 but we get worse accents than that, anyway 19:55:00 Dual nationality 19:55:12 But I cannot do the accent at all 19:55:23 fair enough 19:55:48 Taneb: normally just bringing your university ID card is enough, and we actually prefer it that way 19:56:20 because it has a photo on it 19:56:38 it basically stems from incidents in the past where people paid other people to sit the exams for them 19:57:05 and given that the invigilators are often centralised rather than come from the department that sets the exam, without ID that might be missed altogether 19:57:44 ais523: jsondb? 19:58:08 elliott: I decided to write my own database engine in JavaScript, also Perl 19:58:15 I think you missed the discussions where I came to that decision 19:58:28 although they were in #esoteric so you might have logread them 19:58:40 it's not heavily optimized, or really meant to be 19:59:09 but it's easier to use from a programming point of view than writing SQL because you don't have to write all the joins by hand 20:04:52 -!- oerjan has joined. 20:06:52 oh neither are here <-- DOES IT MATTER 20:07:10 for most :P 20:09:44 anyway it's mostly aimed at keeping the source size small, also at keeping the database size small 20:09:53 (small-compressed, because the database is, obviously, stored as JSON) 20:12:23 Are category theorists easy to annoy? (They sound like they would be.) 20:12:43 I would think in general it's just an arbitrary challenge/response pair. <-- i think the half year i had a US account, it was "what is your mother's maiden name". though maybe i just remember that because it's stereotypical. 20:13:21 fizzie: only up to isomorphism. 20:13:59 you may _think_ they're annoyed, but it might be a different feeling. 20:14:12 Hello, voiceless peons. 20:14:16 How is #esoteric today? 20:14:16 isomorphisms annoy category theorists? 20:14:27 @wn peon 20:14:28 *** "peon" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)" 20:14:29 peon 20:14:29 n 1: a laborer who is obliged to do menial work [syn: {drudge}, 20:14:29 {peon}, {navvy}, {galley slave}] 20:14:30 what is down from isomorphism? 20:14:31 Gregor, I would tell you, but I seem to be voiceless 20:14:32 oerjan: I remember a story (maybe from notalwaysright.com or something) about a guy calling customer service, and them asking the security question, and he'd been drunk or something when setting up the account, so the security question was something like "am I an asshole?", and then he said "um, no", and that was the wrong answer. 20:14:33 ~duck peon 20:14:35 Peonage is a type of involuntary servitude of laborers having little control over their employment conditions. 20:14:52 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: -v Gregor. 20:14:55 I AM NOT A PEON 20:14:56 D-8 20:14:58 NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO 20:15:03 Time to kill myself. 20:15:06 oh dear 20:15:11 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +v Gregor. 20:15:17 let's not go overboard here. 20:15:17 * Gregor hyperventilates. 20:15:26 I didn't know I was so close to the edge! 20:15:37 one never does. 20:15:44 what's the protocol for trying to go kill yourself? 20:15:54 boily, "don't" 20:15:54 my campaign would like to remark that I had no involvement in this devoicing. 20:15:58 boily: /ctcp self terminate 20:16:07 elliott: NOTED 20:16:18 I believe Gregor's logs will implicate oerjan, who is acting as a rogue agent against my popularly-supported op campaign. 20:16:18 fizzie, Time to kill myself. ← imo requires comment 20:16:21 imo he should resign. 20:16:25 Phantom_Hoover: IMO shut up. 20:16:35 Phantom_Hoover: I couldn't decide if it did. 20:16:45 I suppose self-edges are edges too. 20:17:09 am i going too far 20:17:33 elliott: i'm just speaking up for the anti-peonists (which are people against peonism, _not_ people against people who happen, due to temporary misfortune, to be peons, hth) 20:17:59 oerjan: okay. you should elect a peonist for balance. 20:18:04 have I mentioned how much I support the plight of the peons? 20:18:17 that makes you anti-peonist, doesn't it 20:18:34 i mean their plight to appreciate voices 20:18:54 fizzie: :D 20:19:35 Once there was an adventure game, and it had a "listen" command, and (as far as I know, anyway) the only thing the "listen" command did in any state of the game was to pop up a message saying "I hear voices, do you?" 20:19:59 ISTR the king's quest games did a lot with their verbs 20:20:22 olsner: This was a game without a parser, all the commands were in a menu at the bottom. 20:20:32 I'm using my mouse with my left hand even tho I'm right-handed for some reason 20:20:42 Gregor: the ctcp doesn't work. :/ 20:20:48 someone told me it will make me stammer, lol 20:21:05 AnotherTest: It'll make your palms hairy. 20:21:29 fizzie: I don't think there was a text version of any king's quest 20:21:31 fizzie: oh no! everything, but not that! 20:22:02 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 20:23:48 http://www.city-data.com/forum/attachments/las-vegas/86330d1319291357-hairy-palms-palms.jpg 20:24:03 olsner: Didn't those -- pre-VI, anyway -- use a parsed text input as the interaction method, though? 20:24:09 Or maybe pre-V. Something. 20:25:00 I guess those would be before my time 20:25:09 The game in question was also edutainment, and designed to teach things about puberty, I think. 20:25:20 Also things in general, like "stealing is wrong" and so on. 20:25:31 And "dogs eat sausage". 20:25:52 "dogs eat sausage" important lessons about puberty 20:25:57 And there was something about rusty bedframes in a tree, and maybe a junkyard. 20:26:15 ...didn't something like that happen near the end of the Odyssey? 20:26:16 I sort of have only very vague recollections about this game, and I've never been able to find it anywhere. 20:26:41 (I'd appreciate if someone could find me a copy of MURKKU.) 20:26:43 are you sure it wasn't finnish and hence non-existent 20:26:56 It most certainly was Finnish. 20:26:58 Taneb, i half-remember that and now i'm starting to think the odyssey was really stupid 20:26:58 s/finnish/canadianish/ 20:27:09 (In fact, the command was "kuuntele", and the message was "Kuulen ääniä, kuuletko sinäkin?") 20:27:11 Phantom_Hoover, the Iliad actually had robots 20:27:19 MURKKU, a tale of darkness and death? 20:27:35 or maybe it was cold and loneliness 20:27:55 olsner: It's a colloquialism for "murrosikäinen", i.e. a person undergoing puberty. 20:28:07 (Also for "muurahainen", an ant.) 20:28:36 All I've found from the internets are some Finnish forum posts about people reminiscing about old games. 20:30:16 Probably it's on a floppy, somewhere in the world. 20:30:50 probably only in finland 20:31:30 I might have the school's Netware server's SCSI drive (over a hundred megabytes!) somewhere, it's also even conceivable that it's on there, but I haven't seen it in a decade. 20:32:20 how many different scsi variants are there, do you have the hardware and cables to read it? 20:33:25 There are quite a few variants. I did have it connected to something, I remember that much. 20:33:46 The Sun/SGI boxes both speak some form of SCSI. 20:35:15 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:36:55 Also a chapter on "strange design decisions": the name-brand PC we had at home, a Compaq Presario CDS633 (486SX/33 + "multimedia"), it had a SCSI CD-ROM drive, and also a variant of SB16 where the same (ISA) card housed an Adaptec SCSI chipset, to which the CD-ROM was hooked. 20:37:27 I think the soundcard/cd adapter combo was pretty common 20:37:56 but I think I've mostly seen it with IDE (unless there's a scsi over a similar connector that I confused it with) 20:38:09 Yes, that's more common; and also with some proprietary interfaces. 20:38:21 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SB16 "The Sound Blaster with the SCSI controller (SB 16 SCSI-2) was designed for use with "High End" SCSI based CD-ROM drives." 20:38:32 Yeah, "High End", it was double-speed. 20:39:06 That's, what, 300 kilobytes every second? 20:39:16 Wow! 20:40:00 In any case, technically you could have used to to connect any SCSI devices. (Except the boot drive, as the above-mentioned article explains.) 20:40:28 did you still need to also hook up the analog sound cable if you wanted to play CD-Audio? 20:40:41 I would think so. 20:40:44 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has joined. 20:40:44 -!- augur has joined. 20:40:57 that always seemed so strange to me 20:40:58 At least for "regular" playback. 20:41:00 300kBps is a bit less than CD audio 20:41:18 i guess that's why... 20:41:40 also CD-Audio is missing the error correction of CD-ROM 20:41:52 olsner: 44100*2*2 -> 176400 bytes per second. 20:42:01 not sure why that should matter, but it's different anyway 20:42:33 The error correction aspect is the reason for the difference between the 1x "150 kBps" data speed, and that audio data rate. 20:43:01 probably more a matter of it being fairly ridiculous to read the digital data at "high" speeds only to shuffle the bytes back to the same card they came from so they can be converted to analog 20:43:03 2352 bytes of audio, vs. 2048 bytes of data. 20:43:27 hmm, I think I was thinking about the MB/minute figure for cd audio there 20:43:55 Yes, it would've presumably had a reasonable CPU cost, too. 20:44:10 Whereas you could have CD audio playing in the background quite well. 20:44:21 When the drive was doing the D/A and all by itself, that is. 20:44:58 There's a number of CD-ROM games where the soundtrack's as audio tracks on the CD, played by the game as required. 20:46:29 is CD Audio straight up PCM? 20:46:36 Yes. 20:46:49 ah yeah. they call it "Linear PCM" just to be precise 20:47:38 linear because it's not curved (like mu-law or something) right? 20:47:39 exponential pcm 20:48:03 Fiora: Yes, probably to distinguish from µ-law and A-law. 20:48:28 One of the "new" CD formats (SACD) is some sort of fancy 1-bit resolution, 2.8 MHz sampling rate thing. 20:48:49 curved PCM, where instead of straight PCM with 1s and 0s, you have ) and D. 20:48:52 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_Stream_Digital ? 20:49:01 Fiora: Yes. 20:49:35 odd 20:50:44 The delta-sigma thing is a common ADC/DAC design, it's kind of related. 20:51:14 I remember the topic being briefly covered on some signal processing course or another. 20:53:50 oooh. so the actual audio signal is basically an integral over the DTD signal? 20:55:52 -!- epicmonkey has joined. 20:56:55 Pretty much. Compared to regular 16-bit linear PCM, you just make the small steps with the impulses. 20:59:04 The Wikipedia "Delta-sigma modulation" article looks (at a glance) quite comprehensive. 20:59:20 is it an integral, or just a low-pass filter? 20:59:34 Even if it needs additional citations for verification. (December 2011) may require cleanup to meet Wikipedia's quality standards. (June 2011) may be too technical for most readers to understand. (June 2011) 20:59:54 it seems like an extreme case of oversampling and then low-pass filtering to get greater effective resolution than your sample resolution 21:02:47 I guess that might be just a point of view? Certainly that's how the DAC side goes, you twiddle a voltage according to the 0s and 1s and then low-pass filter out the high-frequency components. 21:02:58 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.9.2). 21:04:16 that's also how the PC speaker works 21:04:17 Geharrewar looks promising 21:04:20 but with poor filtering I think 21:04:39 huh, so the PC speaker is a 1-bit speaker? 21:04:54 i think so 21:04:57 The traditional one is, yes. 21:05:03 of course these days it might be an emulation by the on-board sound chipset 21:05:33 -!- FireFly has joined. 21:07:44 It also arguably doesn't have an actual "low-pass filter", it's just that it's a physical device and the moving parts obey the laws of physics. 21:08:03 can a speaker be 1-bit? I'd say you just only get one bit to control it 21:08:12 (if you don't rather set a frequency with the right magic bits) 21:08:56 olsner: A massless ideal point speaker that produces a "1-bit" pressure wave. 21:09:13 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 21:09:16 there's nothing ideal about the PC speaker :) 21:09:28 It's an approximation. :p 21:09:35 fizzie, wouldn't that, like, make the air in front of it explode? 21:09:37 Or fuse? 21:09:50 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Changing host). 21:09:50 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 21:09:54 Or be compressed below its Schwarzschild radius? 21:11:13 Phantom_Hoover: It was already a point source, so... I suppose I don't know. Maybe it just makes more air as needed, in order to make the high-pressure parts of the wave. 21:12:17 the air in front of it momentarily turns into a quark-gluon plasma 21:13:04 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 21:13:05 I also don't know if SACD really made it anywhere. Certainly I've never seen a player, or a disc. 21:13:21 fizzie: well a real-life speaker attempting to change DC offset (i.e. a step function) sounds like a click 21:13:28 obviously it can't do it exactly 21:13:33 but modern speakers can do quite a good approximation 21:13:53 I think there was a DVD-Audio disc somewhere. 21:14:22 That's just "boring" linear PCM, but it goes up to 192 kHz and 24 bits. 21:14:32 G'night 21:14:49 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving). 21:14:51 (Also MLP.) 21:16:42 MLP? 21:16:47 Meridian Lossless. 21:17:06 It's a proprietary lossless compression format. 21:17:15 (Probably patented? They usually are.) 21:17:24 fizzie: are current digital microphones good enough to capture 24 bits at 192 kHz? 21:17:27 I should read something about lossless audio compression some day 21:17:57 I think they're all relatively similar? like I remember FLAC is basically LPC + rice coding 21:18:01 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_predictive_coding 21:18:14 I think Blü-ray incorpamorated MLP as a mandatory technology too. 21:18:16 so like there's all these weird formats like TTA and Monkeys Audio and stuff 21:18:31 but I think they're mostly just variations on LPC with different entropy back-ends? 21:18:36 Maybe it was optional. 21:19:08 huh, LucasArts shut down and I didn't even notice. 21:19:17 Yes, seems that it's optional. (It's what Dolby "TrueHD" uses.) 21:19:57 hmm, they did didn't they? I saw something about that 21:20:11 admittedly they hadn't done anything even remotely interesting for three years. and nothing *really* interesting for 15. 21:20:13 to be fair, has lucasarts done anything in the last 5-10 years? 21:20:18 yeah, exactly 21:20:29 they did those updated versions of MI1/MI2 21:20:39 but that's about it 21:20:49 Fiora: Wikipedia says Monkey's Audio takes approximately as much resources to decode as it does to encode, which sounds kind of strange. 21:21:00 there was some kind of kickstarter or similar for a new monkey island installment, I think? but unconnected to lucasarts as I understood it 21:21:27 I think they did one of the Star Wars games themselves, too. (I don't know which one.) 21:21:42 (or maybe that was some unrelated game by the same people who presumably left lucasarts before then) 21:21:59 fizzie: I think I remember APE was the one that used arithmetic coding? so it ate CPU like crazy 21:22:05 elliott: I noticed, fwiw 21:22:06 (relative to like, FLAC) 21:22:11 but basically because the tech news were all discussing it 21:22:26 and the majority opinion was "well, they used to be good, but it's no real loss nowadays" 21:22:47 ais523: you should have told me! now it's too late to, um. i don't know, replay grim fandango or something 21:23:04 Fiora: I'm not sure why everyone just doesn't use FLAC for their lossless needs, honestly. 21:23:06 actually if I tried to replay Grim Fandango, it'd probably last about five minutes before I give up thanks to the interface. 21:23:23 elliott: can you give a precise definition of what tech news I should inform you of? 21:23:34 fizzie: my feeling is that lossless formats are way easier to make than lossy ones (since you don't have to worry about all the crazy complicated psychoacoustic stuff) 21:23:38 so they tend to breed 21:23:56 open source wise people probably make them for fun, and companies like Dolby make their own so they can sell them (?) 21:24:10 I do think at least Apple Lossless is LPC-based. 21:24:20 Fiora: now I'm wondering: you know how old computer programs used to be stored on audio tape? 21:24:22 Good old linear prediction, the workhorse of everything. 21:24:34 back before audio cassettes were separated from data storage? 21:24:39 this approach of shutting down after having done nothing notable for years seems somehow better than that whole idea about stopping when you're at your best 21:24:49 nobody was alive back then, ais523 21:24:53 and it seems like it's "not too hard" to beat flac by a tiny little bit, so people like to do that? 21:24:53 * kmc should learn how arithmetic coding works, one day 21:24:56 the world started existing in 1995 21:25:03 would an .mp3 of those work? or would it fail because it filtered out things that are inaudible to humans but matter to the computer? 21:25:16 presumably they had to have a bunch of redundancy and error correction? 21:25:20 since tape isn't exactly the most reliable of formats 21:25:24 ais523: i used to store TRS-80 programs on my Windows machine, but as uncompressed PCM 21:25:31 elliott: well my first computer was one of the first available-to-the-general-public systems which used floppy drives rather than cassette drives 21:25:32 kmc: or range coding which is exactly the same but not patented 21:25:32 haha that owns 21:25:39 with 5¼ inch floppies 21:25:47 ais523: I think they're quite robust, FWIW. I mean, people sent them over FM radio. 21:25:53 kmc: I think I remember the explanation that had to be pounded into my head in order to actually finally get it <.< 21:25:55 i know that programs were sometimes sent over radio, or pressed onto cheapo records and included in computer magazines 21:25:59 Fiora: oh? 21:26:14 Of course the psychoacoustics like masking will be all wrong for data. 21:26:20 fizzie: yes but that was analog 21:26:26 iirc c64 used a really simple encoding, something like beep=1 and silence=0 21:26:27 um, so basically like. let's say you have a range of values between 0.0 and 1.0 21:26:34 so [0.0,1.0] is our range 21:26:49 and these data were basically designed to be sent over analog systems, FM radio isn't much different from an audio cassette in that respect 21:26:52 ais523: Anyway, you could go and do an empirical test of it, with just a computer. 21:26:54 now let's say we're encoding a bit, and our probability is "60% 1, 40% 0", so we've decided a priori for some reason that 1s are more likely than 0s 21:27:15 and let's say we decide to code a 1 21:27:21 -!- boily has quit (Quit: Poulet!). 21:27:23 -!- metasepia has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:27:29 fizzie: yeah except I'd need some sort of converter between lossless audio (probably .wav) and actual program files 21:27:32 so we split the range, [0,0.6] and [0.6,1.0] 21:27:41 ais523: Those are freely available, though. 21:27:48 the first range is the range that we'd get with a 1, and the second is the range we'd get with a 0. 21:27:54 since we're doing a 1, we now have [0,0.6] 21:27:56 ais523: I've used them to write C64 tapes with a cassette deck connected to a soundcard. 21:28:20 fizzie: aha 21:28:24 okay, so now we repeat the process. let's say we code a 0. we end up with [0.36,0.6]. 21:28:31 now, our range is smaller than 0.5! so we need to renormalize. 21:28:45 or wait... ignore that last thing I said <.< I'm dumb. 21:29:01 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:29:13 we repeat the process until our range no longer crosses 0.5. 21:29:34 when it stops crossing 0.5, if the range is /below/ 0.5, we output a "0", otherwise we output a "1", and we expand the range by a factor of 2 to compensate. 21:29:50 basically, we're constructing a loooonnnnng continued binary fraction. 21:29:58 when our range doesn't cross 0.5, we "know for sure" the next bit of the fraction. 21:30:05 hm, okay 21:30:06 "renormalizing" writes out that bit of the fraction, and expands the range. 21:30:11 can't you end up unlucky with a range getting closer and closer to 0.5? 21:30:33 i'll have to think about it more later (kinda distracted atm) 21:30:35 i.e. never reaching the point where you know if it's a 0 or 1 to write 21:30:37 but it basically makes sense 21:30:38 you totally can, but it's progressively less likely? and I think arithmetic coders have some thing to work around it 21:30:54 like, what'll end up happening is at some point you'll stop crossing 0.5, and you'll have a looooot of bits to write. 21:31:07 I think the thing is typically the range is quantized? so like, it's not an infinite rational decimal 21:31:17 so eventually at some point you have to round and stop crossing it XD 21:31:23 olsner: The various fast loaders do optimize the tape encodings, though. 21:31:36 I'm really not sure about the details though, I think it depends on the implementation... 21:31:53 (The ROM routines are more about robustness than speed, I think.) 21:32:29 the other important bit I think was that the really important part is how you pick the probabilities, which is where all the interesting stuff comes in 21:32:29 you just fudge the probabilities for symbols to make sure you have a decision within a specific number of bits? 21:32:30 Fiora: hm, thanks for the explanation 21:32:43 I didn't know how arithmetic coders work and now it mostly makes sense 21:33:01 arithmetic coding is basically just a thing that lets you have fractional output bits per input bit (unlike huffman codes, which have to be integer) 21:33:07 but they don't do anything smart on their own kinda 21:33:19 just like, with huffman codes, you have to build a huffman tree 21:33:34 so with arithmetic coding you need some algorithm to pick probabilities. 21:34:19 so when you're doing more than bits (like say English words), do you just extend the alphabet beyond 0,1, or do you do something fancy where you decide the probability for bits following some other bits or something instead? 21:34:39 firstly I think it's possible to do a multi-symbol coder (like, split the range into more than 2 sections) 21:34:47 but I think those are less used because they're a lot more complicated 21:35:06 but yeah, I think that's what you do? it's called a 'context model', I think 21:35:23 a super crazy example are the PAQ compressors, they have like, neural net driven context mixing craziness 21:35:31 right 21:35:37 it's sort of markov chainy 21:35:45 "context mixing" is basically a thing where you run a bunch of models simultaneously, and weight them based on how good they've been 21:35:46 emphasis on the sort of 21:35:50 reverse markov chainy?? 21:35:56 I think so...? 21:36:03 it's like. continuous markov chains. or something 21:36:03 markov cheney 21:36:14 I think that's where the "M" in LZMA comes from? 21:36:17 ais523: Come to think of it, and looking at the CBM ROM tape encoding, it could be that you do in fact get a rather messed-up signal, since it's based on lengths of square wave pulses -- with lengths in the 0.35 to 0.67 ms range -- while the lossy encodings generally take frames of like 26 ms and go all subband on that. You should consider actually investigating this. 21:36:51 fizzie: yeah, I'm curious 21:36:58 I'm not sure the results would be useful, but they'd be interesting 21:37:15 (I always think of "context mixing" as the compression variant of that thing that the netflix prize winners did) 21:37:28 (which was combine like a dozen different teams' algorithms and weight them together <.<) 21:37:40 "I am making the world better by CONFUSING THE SQUARES" -- cpressey 21:37:46 in fact 21:37:54 -!- elliott has set topic: I am making the world better by CONFUSING THE SQUARES | Underhanded C Contest: http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/. 21:38:17 what squares 21:38:26 the little ones that make up all the images on your computer 21:39:17 what happens to the images when you confuse the squares? :S 21:39:38 Fiora: That's how people win speech recognition contests, too. You take a dozen different systems and then stick it all into something like ROVER. 21:39:41 they get all mixed-up 21:39:51 ROVER? 21:40:02 fizzie: generic obligatory remark mocking speech recognition research, etc. 21:40:15 Fiora: Recognizer Output Voting Error Reduction, it's a semi-clever way of combining results. 21:40:27 oooh 21:41:29 throw shit at it until it works: TSAIUIW 21:41:38 Fiora: You make a single lattice kind of a network of the joint results and then you mumble mumble rescore mumble voting mumble http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/articleDetails.jsp?arnumber=659110 21:41:47 XD 21:43:21 I think machine translation folks do the same thing, except with slightly different tricks. 21:43:52 Their variant is called MEMT, for Multi-Engine Machine Translation. 21:44:12 that's not a very good acronym 21:45:29 elliott: Well, it does use METEOR (Metric for Evaluation of Translation with Explicit ORdering) as a component, does that help? 21:46:48 yes 21:46:57 programmer acronyms -_- 21:47:00 -!- carado_ has joined. 21:47:14 hey now 21:47:18 those are speech recognition researchers 21:47:24 it hardly counts! 21:47:40 Hey now, don't lump those machine translation weirdoes together with us. 21:47:40 oh my god. reddit... 21:47:41 close enough :< 21:47:48 fizzie: haha 21:48:14 someone's 100% sure that the odds of rolling a 40 with two d20 dice is 21:48:19 1/(20!)^2 21:48:43 No, for every combination of given permutations each dice is represented by 1/20 but only for non repeating combinations. Therefore, the chances of selecting a single combination from two dice is given by one out of the squared factorial of the possible permutations of a single die, which is 20. 21:48:43 Therefore, 1/(20!)2 for all possible outcomes. 21:48:43 EDIT: Forgot to mention that this is applicable for n<400 but n>16 for N+1 combinations, statistically speaking. 21:48:56 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SELENE though scientists love doing that too XD 21:48:59 -!- Baryalay has joined. 21:49:00 nooodl: what 21:49:05 a lunar spacecraft. acronym'd. SELENE. <.< 21:49:19 * Fiora likes its nickname, too 21:49:29 Though I don't think they backcronym'd the nickname. 21:49:30 "loony" 21:49:49 and then someone explains it to him plain and simple, using 3-sided dice as an argument, and... 21:49:49 oh, kaguya, of course 21:49:54 "No dude you're making a sampling error. Go back and do it again and you'll see what I'm talking about." 21:49:56 it's amazing 21:50:00 ACRONYM Acronym Constructed Reversely Osomething Nsomething Ysomething Msomething 21:50:10 nooodl: Maybe it's some kind of a troll. 21:50:23 nooodl: 3-sided dice are hard to build, though 21:50:39 ais523: Yes, you need to take a d6 and label it {1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 3}. 21:50:44 Nisstyre-laptop only overtly opens doors lengthwise? 21:50:54 fuck it 21:50:59 i was gonna go with a d4 labeled {1, 2, 3, "roll again"} 21:51:05 i'm never going to top cdrzaszcz 21:51:24 nooodl: A d20 labeled with {1, 2, 3, "roll again", "roll again", ...} so that your games aren't over too soon. 21:51:35 extra suspense 21:51:37 what was cdrzaszcz 21:51:54 ... 21:52:05 I was thinking maybe octave's fact() function is the factorial. 21:52:09 octave:1> fact(20) 21:52:09 Richad Stallman's pinky finger is really a USB memory stick. 21:52:14 I don't think that's 20!. 21:52:22 i... 21:52:23 amazing 21:52:25 octave... 21:52:27 what 21:52:33 fact(sphere) 21:52:34 does it have other facts 21:52:42 elliott: "Richard Stallman doesn't always run an OS kernel, but when he does he prefers GNU/Hurd. He is... the most interesting hacker in the world. Stay free, my friends." 21:52:43 hi 21:52:43 damn we don't have shachaf here 21:52:45 hi every body 21:52:48 i assume fact(1), fact(2) etc all exist 21:52:51 for a fun fact 21:52:51 relcome Baryalay 21:52:57 nooodl: fact(20) is not always the same fact, it seems. 21:53:00 ​Baryalay: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) 21:53:01 i feel so... deprived. 21:53:16 nooodl: Apparently it ignores all arguments. 21:53:18 when's the last time anyone used welcome 21:53:25 just now, elliott did it 21:53:30 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 21:53:31 that's relcome 21:53:31 Bike: rainbow welcome deprives you? 21:53:35 addquote ... I was thinking maybe octave's fact() function is the factorial. octave:1> fact(20) Richad Stallman's pinky finger is really a USB memory stick. I don't think that's 20!. 21:53:39 1035) ... I was thinking maybe octave's fact() function is the factorial. octave:1> fact(20) Richad Stallman's pinky finger is really a USB memory stick. I don't think that's 20!. 21:53:40 pastelog welcome 21:53:46 elliott: http://sprunge.us/IfYW ALL FACTS 21:53:58 ## Copyright (C) 2007 Stallmanfacts.com 21:54:01 -!- carado_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 21:54:06 "Richard Stallman doesn't need sudo. I will make him a sandwich anyway."; 21:54:12 sdjfdklgjdlfkgj 21:54:25 "sudo chown rms:gnu ~/base -R"; 21:54:28 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.2331 21:54:29 "\"RMS\" stands for \"RMS Makes Software\""; 21:54:31 These are... kind of bad. 21:54:35 -!- itsy has joined. 21:54:37 do you think this is worse or better than wolfram 21:54:42 i don't think i can decide 21:54:49 "Richard Stallman doesn't need sudo. He'll just eat something off his foot instead of a sandwich." 21:54:56 thanks elliott 21:55:42 "Richard Stallman won a Suduku that started with only one number in each line" 21:55:55 snort 21:56:22 I don't know how all of these manage to be so... bad. 21:56:38 2011-11-18.txt:22:42:49: oerjan: wtf is welcome and why does it exist 21:56:48 Oh how the mighty have fallen 21:56:52 is that the first mention? 21:57:04 it isn't sadly 21:57:14 Wow, that expression is from 2 Samuel. 21:57:15 the first mention is... welcome 21:57:24 sgeo's an innovator 21:59:00 did someone break pastelog or something 21:59:03 why does it give random lines without dates 21:59:08 why doesn't it give the message for running out of lines 21:59:21 cat bin/pastelog 21:59:23 ​#!/bin/sh \ cd /var/irclogs/_esoteric \ \ pasterandom() { \ if [ "$1" -gt 150 ]; then \ echo "No." \ exit \ fi \ for i in$(seq "$1"); do \ file=$(shuf -en 1 ????-??-??.txt) \ echo "$file:$(shuf -n 1 $file)" \ done | paste \ } \ \ if [ "$1" ]; then \ if expr "$1" + 0 >/dev/null 2>&1; then \ 21:59:38 that list of quotes is really quite bad 22:00:08 do you think this is worse or better than wolfram 22:00:09 nobody was alive back then, ais523 <-- i recall my cousin played with magnets, and ruined the cassette with all the interesting programs for my dad's oric-1 22:00:15 bike how can you even ask that 22:00:24 I seem to remember a radio station broadcasting a computer game or something 22:00:25 except I was alive? 22:00:30 maybe it was a cassette with a recording of it 22:00:36 Phantom_Hoover: they're both shitty is what i'm saying 22:00:41 but like I remember the announcer saying and now we are going to broadcast a zx spectrum program 22:00:42 no bike 22:00:45 [KREEEOORRRCSHCJSHJCSJCHS] 22:00:53 maybe itw as a great dream 22:00:59 elliott: Did it make you feel awe? 22:01:08 you are de-serifying wolfram's shittiness by comparing it to rms's milquetoast weirdness 22:01:23 maybe elliott is a kid who had his personality overwritten with a ZX Spectrum program 22:02:09 since tape isn't exactly the most reliable of formats <-- iirc it had a fast and a slow save/load format, and we never got the fast one to work. 22:02:11 iirc stallman is actually an asshole beyond being awkward 22:02:13 but I totally forget how 22:02:24 ^bf ++++[>++++<-]>+[>>++>+>+>++<[+++++<]<-]>>>++.>-.<++++..+++.>>--.++<<<.---->.--<[-.>] 22:02:34 oh right he did http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/EMACS_virgins_joke 22:02:37 Hey, where's fungot. 22:02:43 What's the smallest know Brainfuck hello world? 22:02:58 maybe it was the whining a bunch for someone saying "sorry I can't work on this emacs thing right now because we just had a baby" on the mailing list thing 22:03:07 uh 22:03:10 -!- fungot has joined. 22:03:14 ^bf ++++[>++++<-]>+[>>++>+>+>++<[+++++<]<-]>>>++.>-.<++++..+++.>>--.++<<<.---->.--<[-.>] 22:03:15 hello world! 22:03:24 There we go. 22:03:29 maybe everyone is just terrible. 22:03:29 To help avoid misunderstandings of this kind in the future, since August I have changed the joke so that the Virgin of Emacs can be of either sex. 22:03:31 are you terrible? 22:03:32 i love stallman 22:03:37 how dare people have children when software remains unfree 22:03:46 imo i'm terrible 22:04:05 That Hello World is 84 instructions. What's the shortest known? 22:04:16 okay here we go 22:04:22 there are two whole webpages about this happening at different times 22:04:24 http://www.art.net/~hopkins/Don/text/rms-vs-doctor.html 22:04:27 That's a "hello world", not a "Hello World", though. 22:04:30 http://edward.oconnor.cx/2005/04/rms 22:04:51 elliott: what the fuck. 22:05:31 wooooowwww 22:05:47 geez. I didn't quite comprehend the magnitude of his self-absorbness 22:08:02 Ahaha he does overpopulation shit 22:08:08 at least nobody actually expects stallman to be well-adjusted in the first place 22:08:41 can we not lose track of the fact that we are comparing him to wolfram here 22:09:00 "Human overpopulation is the root cause of every environmental problem in this world" wow this is a deep vein of terrible 22:09:03 i feel it's one of those "greater good" type deals 22:09:04 If I understood the above links correctly, I should point out here on channel that I did not have a baby today. Was this correct? 22:09:20 don't worry fizzie 22:09:25 we're all your children 22:09:31 wow. he's. actually an antinatalist 22:09:53 fizzie: you're married though, i thought married people did all the weird boring things like having babies 22:09:53 malthusianism is so incredibly silly, argh 22:09:56 constantly 22:09:59 you totally can, but it's progressively less likely? and I think arithmetic coders have some thing to work around it <-- what i see is that you can do expansion when the range gets inside [0.25, 0.75), and keep a counter for how many times you've done that since you last actually wrote a bit. then when you get to actually write a bit, prepend count number of the opposite bit. i think. 22:10:17 oerjan: OHHHHH. right. I think I remember something to that effect 22:10:20 "bits outstanding" or something? 22:10:34 that makes much more sense, thanks 22:10:46 * Fiora mentally fixes the hole in her explanation 22:11:08 elliott: I suppose it correlates, like those pirates and global warming. 22:11:22 it also correlates with you being really old! 22:11:39 * _append_ count opposite bits, i think. 22:11:58 Well, I'm not making any babies, I heard it would ruin the world. 22:12:05 append to output before appending the rest of the bits to output? 22:12:50 ^bf ,[.,]!Hello, world! 22:12:50 Hello, world! 22:12:54 5 instructions hth 22:13:06 and wow. the emacs thing. just. eeesh 22:13:18 fizzie: would you rather ruin the world or statistics? 22:13:25 I hear speech recognition uses a lot of the latter, but is useless in the former. 22:13:30 the choice seems obvious! 22:14:07 (that was a good one) 22:14:25 You can find jokes about me by other people in stallmanfacts.com. However, if a joke describes any software as "open" or "closed", please vote it down, because that would give the wrong idea of what I stand for. 22:14:29 -- stallman.org 22:14:34 classic 22:14:45 Here's someone else's humor about me. The statements attributed to me are quoted out of context from my info packet for people organizing my speeches. 22:14:55 ESR's favorite programming language: Objectivist C. 22:15:00 haha even stallman makes fun of esr 22:16:53 -!- Baryalay has quit (Quit: Leaving). 22:19:56 esr isn't an objectivist is he 22:20:02 he's some generic libertarian crazy 22:20:19 -!- itsy has left. 22:20:58 well it's a link to someone else's joke 22:21:29 Oh no; stallmanfacts.com has, in fact, been taken over by a domain squatter. 22:21:47 Now the facts only live on in /usr/share/octave/3.6.2/m/miscellaneous/fact.m. 22:22:34 do any of them mention open or closed 22:22:52 Not really in a "bad" way. 22:23:00 "Richard Stallman doesn't really believe in open software, because it's not free enough." 22:23:03 I mean, that's a fact. 22:23:07 hilarious. 22:23:15 did someone break pastelog or something 22:23:18 "Richard Stallman, upon reading these facts, didn't laugh at all. Instead, he complained that he is being linked to that dirty \"open source\" software. He also asked it to be changed to \"free software\", in order to raise awareness for software freedom in our society." 22:23:23 actually having a laughter seizure; dying; please help; stallmanfacts just too funny 22:23:36 That may or may not be a fact, but it's still not misleading. 22:23:39 <-- i used pastelogs yesterday and it worked, maybe pastelog has diverged? 22:23:46 "Richard Stallman does not contribute to open source projects; open source projects contribute to Richard Stallman, and then call themselves free software projects." 22:23:53 That's something I can't really describe. 22:24:02 oerjan: well it "worked" 22:24:34 There are no references to "closed" software, it's all just "non-free". 22:24:42 I suppose someone may have "fixed" the facts. 22:24:49 faxed the facts 22:25:20 "Richard Stallman's computer has only two buttons. One is for guests." 22:25:24 Some of these are just bizarre. 22:26:11 -!- Bike_ has joined. 22:26:21 Many of them do make fun of the "does not bathe" thing. 22:26:39 the what now 22:27:12 "Richard Stallman is licensed under GPL, so you can clone him and redistribute copies so you can help your neighbor. For example a version that take a bath more often." "Richard Stallman does not take bath, for the hydroelectric company uses proprietary software." "Agent Smith loves Richard Stallman's scent." 22:27:17 That sort of stuff. 22:27:28 oooookay 22:28:05 fizzie: why do both of those have missing "s"es 22:28:09 take[s] a bath, take bath[s] 22:28:17 er both two 22:28:18 first 22:28:18 thing 22:28:24 the cloning thing actually sounds reasonable, but I doubt genetic engineering can control bathiness yet 22:28:28 quote maker is russian 22:28:49 elliott: Because the s was not free software enough. 22:28:55 fizzie: you mean open source 22:28:55 (Fact.) 22:29:10 -!- Bike has quit (Disconnected by services). 22:29:14 -!- Bike_ has changed nick to Bike. 22:31:07 oerjan: well it "worked" <-- i'm pretty sure it gave me the date, since i used it to look up the actual log page :P 22:32:11 did you click the paste in question 22:32:15 you will see the anomalous lines I was referring to 22:32:23 like mostly the output was fine 22:33:13 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 22:33:36 elliott: i'm talking about my yesterday pastelogs 22:33:52 well I don't know what you mean by the date 22:34:39 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/f90804fc6712/paste/paste.1592 22:34:48 the part before the .txt, hth 22:35:50 oerjan: I feel like I must be expressing myself incredibly unclearly. again, did you click the pastelogs I did that lead to me saying it was broken? it too had dates. but it also had lines just out of nowhere with no date or name and not even a proper sentence, occasionally in-between those 22:37:03 It's like watching two people with no language in common. 22:37:28 * Bike gesticulates wildly, accidentally pokes elliott in the eye 22:37:39 elliott: yes. i'm looking at it now. what seems to happen is that lines containing weird\nick has turned the \n into an actual newline. 22:38:18 run diff bin/pastelog bin/pastelogs 22:38:20 No output. 22:38:29 ok so there's no difference there 22:38:42 cat bin/pastelogs 22:38:43 ​#!/bin/sh \ cd /var/irclogs/_esoteric \ \ pasterandom() { \ if [ "$1" -gt 150 ]; then \ echo "No." \ exit \ fi \ for i in $(seq "$1"); do \ file=$(shuf -en 1 ????-??-??.txt) \ echo "$file:$(shuf -n 1$file)" \ done | paste \ } \ \ if [ "$1" ]; then \ if expr "$1" + 0 >/dev/null 2>&1; then \ 22:38:46 oerjan: Escaping failure 22:38:53 FreeFull: sounds like it 22:39:03 run diff- u bin/pastelog{,s} 22:39:04 bash: diff-: command not found 22:39:07 run diff -u bin/pastelog{,s} 22:39:09 No output. 22:39:13 oh 22:39:14 you did that 22:39:56 elliott: yes. the bug isn't new, it only showed up because the search hit a bunch of stuff with \n it it 22:39:59 *in it 22:40:10 i assume 22:40:50 url bin/pastelogs 22:40:53 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/bin/pastelogs 22:41:09 wtf 22:41:18 run readlink bin/pastelogs # they're actually the same thing. 22:41:20 pastelog 22:41:23 oh that one is a symbolic link 22:43:02 run sed -i 's/lines=$$[].*$$/lines="\1"/' bin/pastelog 22:43:05 No output. 22:43:16 pastelog will stop working in the year 10000 wow 22:43:23 imo awful 22:43:25 oh hm 22:43:36 that won't work because there's a " inside too 22:44:02 how do you escape that so it works? 22:44:22 Are you sure it's not just the echo "$lines" interpreting escapes by default? 22:44:26 Some echos do. 22:44:40 -!- Bike_ has joined. 22:44:45 Bash echo has a -E that disables them. 22:44:52 run echo "test\nho" 22:44:55 test\nho 22:45:10 nooodl: even worse, 22:45:11 cat bin/list 22:45:12 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 22:45:13 ​#!/bin/sh \ grep '^..:..:..: <[^>]*> list' /var/irclogs/_esoteric/201[3-9]-??-??.txt | sed 's/^.*.*//;s/_*$//' | sort -u | tr '\n' ' ' 22:45:15 will break in 2020 22:45:16 -!- Bike_ has changed nick to Bike. 22:45:18 oerjan: But that's run as bin/sh. 22:45:19 run echo 'test\nho' 22:45:25 oerjan: pastelog, I mean. 22:45:27 test\nho 22:45:28 run echo -e 'test\nho' 22:45:29 test \ ho 22:45:38 -!- carado_ has joined. 22:46:18 run /bin/sh -c 'echo "foo\nbar"' 22:46:20 foo \ bar 22:46:26 -!- augur has joined. 22:46:37 In fact, it's possible changing it to just /bin/bash might fix it. 22:46:43 revert 22:46:47 Done. 22:47:11 sed -i '1s/sh/bash/' bin/pastelog 22:47:12 Usage: sed [OPTION]... {script-only-if-no-other-script} [input-file]... \ \ -n, --quiet, --silent \ suppress automatic printing of pattern space \ -e script, --expression=script \ add the script to the commands to be executed \ -f script-file, --file=script-file \ add the contents of script- 22:47:17 run sed -i '1s/sh/bash/' bin/pastelog 22:47:21 No output. 22:47:35 pastelog welcome 22:47:43 NO WARRANTY EXPRESS OR IMPLIED 22:47:55 Just thought I'd get that out. 22:47:59 OKAY 22:48:00 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.31610 22:48:20 fizzie++ 22:48:21 I guess we should stop using #!/bin/sh 22:48:46 but not every system has bash 22:49:15 don't you care about portability? 22:50:42 -!- nooodl has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 22:53:44 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 22:54:51 -!- WeThePeople has joined. 22:56:11 it was about a dwarf fortress dwarf named after the DS9 bashir <-- ah now it makes all sense 22:57:57 fizzie: i don't suppose you might consider doing something about this. getting a channel regular to leave because you told them to kill themselves is out of line. and this isn't the first time he's done it to shachaf 22:58:22 oerjan: imo you need to start reading the logs backwards 22:58:23 -!- Bike_ has joined. 22:58:23 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 22:58:34 elliott: PROBABLY 22:58:44 SORRY FOR INTERRUPTING TYPING YOUR REPLY 22:58:57 oerjan: I did something already, I promised to type a note maybe. 22:59:08 oh. 22:59:27 That counts, right? 22:59:28 fizzie: don't you interrupt him too. 22:59:38 elliott: it's ok irssi has good enough history you can stop and restart typing lines 22:59:47 -!- augur has joined. 23:00:08 although now i shall have to see what fizzie did first 23:00:11 holy fucking hell 23:00:26 elliott: I suggested he read all the lines at the same time to see both context and the followups 23:00:31 the current twee bbc competition show is the "Great British Sewing Bee" 23:00:42 (he didn't want to do that, for some reason) 23:00:48 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 23:02:03 olsner: i bitch at my short term memory all the time, no point giving it _more_ reasons to fail me. 23:03:38 just drop all the lines that don't fit in memory, they were probably not important anyway 23:04:16 actually, just ignore anything that happens when you weren't here, and you will be much happier and ignoranter 23:04:45 (hth) 23:04:51 not to mention have more time to surf the rest of the net 23:04:57 indeed! 23:05:34 That counts, right? <-- yes, but the count decrements gradually 23:05:56 .noisiced doog a no snoitalutargnoC .sdrawkcab sgol eht daer ot detrats deedni evah ot mees uoy ,najreo ,olleH 23:06:18 (It's a secret message.) 23:06:22 OKAY 23:06:33 * Koen_ is kinda freaked out by how easily he could read that 23:07:19 -!- shachaf has joined. 23:07:47 ALL IS WELL 23:07:57 (EVERYBODY SHUT UP) 23:08:15 FreeFull: Yes, my implementation of Mako is the one using SDL. 23:08:28 It's also the ludicrously efficient one. 23:09:37 -!- carado_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 23:17:15 perhaps I should change tack and make fizzie an admin instead. <-- good luck with that. 23:17:28 you don't understand the power at my fingertips 23:20:38 -!- hagb4rd has joined. 23:21:46 https://github.com/pikhq/cmako 23:22:38 -!- Bike has joined. 23:23:29 Bike: fun fact: the existence difficult monoids is equivalent to the axiom of choice 23:23:44 oerjan: I'd probably be as industrous a wiki admin as I am a diligent channel operator. 23:23:55 (I was informed that you wanted a fun fact from me.) 23:24:01 /home/freefull/code/cmako/build-aux/missing: Unknown `--is-lightweight' option 23:24:32 -!- Bike_ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 23:25:13 elliott: see? 23:25:39 shachaf: what's a ... oh. 23:26:51 -!- WeThePeople has quit (Quit: Leaving). 23:26:54 shachaf: thx. 23:27:33 i like how the press doesn't even bother to explain filibustering and cloture anymore, they just say "you need 60 votes to pass a bill in the senate" 23:27:42 and by "like" i mean, our government is terminally broken 23:29:40 Because it's hopelessly deadlocked? 23:30:10 i our government is terminally broken how the press 23:30:24 Phantom_Hoover: a lot of reasons, that's one though 23:30:32 Fun: Going back and forth between two possible approaches without distributed VC 23:30:41 Sgeo: don't do it 23:30:48 And not wanting to commit such nonsense publically 23:31:09 use git-svn or something 23:31:24 svn diff > test1.diff; patch -p0 < test2.diff; repeating forever? <.< 23:31:31 * Fiora remembers doing that -_- 23:31:41 according to my trusty steed, I must be voiced. <-- you can ride cuttlefish? 23:31:48 Meh. Both ideas are now represented in code to some extent. 23:31:49 oh not here. 23:31:51 In the same codebase 23:32:04 I need a shelve feature. Does git have shelve? 23:32:26 i don't know what shelve is 23:32:30 but there's git stash 23:33:17 i think hg-svn also exists 23:33:25 failing that, git-hg does, so by transitivity... 23:33:39 you should run the same repo through git-hg, hg-svn, and git-svn over and over 23:33:39 that sounds horrifying, elliott. 23:33:43 until it gets hopelessly corrupted 23:33:50 wait kmc made it horrifyinger 23:33:58 i worked somewhere that had a few devs still using CVS, and we had to sync their changes to our git repo 23:33:59 it's like translation party except it probably won't degenerate into sex jokes :( 23:34:01 *that* was horrifying 23:34:16 kmc: why didn't you force them to switch 23:34:23 elliott: they made more money than us 23:34:25 finance job 23:34:40 kmc: so this is the true reason finance is horrifying 23:34:52 a true reason 23:35:02 elliott: what should i do with my life 23:35:15 don't like finance, don't like web startupland 23:35:20 do you think ten years ago those cvs-ing employees were complaining about people just throwing flat patches around 23:35:23 i think i don't like big companies but i've never really worked for one 23:35:32 Bike: maybe 23:35:38 clearly you should go into research i hear being a postdoc is Awesome 23:35:44 throwing flat patches around is arguable better than CVS 23:35:49 that's what the linux kernel people believe anyway 23:35:51 haha 23:35:51 kmc: uh are you able to improve the lives of the disadvantaged without going insane or getting incredibly depressed 23:36:00 elliott: how would i do it though 23:36:05 if you're looking for shoulds that's probably the blanket one 23:36:15 I've thrown flat patches around 23:36:21 At this job 23:36:22 i thought i would do it by working for a web startup and getting ridiculous bubble money and giving it away 23:36:25 that of course very few people are likely to actually act on (including me, though I would probably go insane and get incredibly depressed) 23:36:28 but it didn't work out 23:36:42 maybe you could start a startup for helping disadvantaged people start startups 23:36:46 kmc: maybe you could speculate bitcoins 23:36:51 Bike: isn't that what kiva is 23:36:57 i asked for more money so i could give it away, and they fired me instead 23:36:59 yes darn scopped 23:37:00 (over simplification) 23:37:21 asking for more money at a startup sounds 23:37:23 difficult 23:37:29 i dunno what's a way to help people. logistics. tell people the food bank doesn't need more cranberry sauce jesus christ donate laundry detergent instead everybody needs it 23:37:46 heh 23:37:49 i just gave them money 23:37:55 yes, and people generally don't need cranberry sauce 23:38:05 maybe i should develop a process for fermenting cranberry sauce into cheap liquor 23:38:07 a pattern is emerging 23:38:15 i think we still have cranberry sauce from thanksgiving and we've been throwing two into every fucking basket 23:38:16 kmc: you could overthrow capitalism and become a dictator 23:38:19 i think we already have that these days 23:38:20 but this time be good instead of evil 23:38:27 elliott: heh 23:38:46 kmc should make the new cybersyn 23:38:53 so a socialist government can fuck over striking workers 23:38:54 Money might be a better thing to donate instead of food because even if it's a food bank they can use the money to buy whatever food is needed and not whatever happens to be given 23:39:04 if the guys in the year above me could make booze with some canned fruit they found in the home economics department you can make it with cranberry sauce 23:39:09 Bike: i will build THATCHERBOT 50,000 23:39:16 D: 23:39:30 kmc: perhaps find something you enjoy and then give away some of the money to alleviate your guilt despite the fact that it's much less than you theoretically could give away if you were satisfied with being less comfortable 23:39:32 seriously though it's "hilarious" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Cybersyn 23:39:37 yeah I've seen it 23:39:40 greatest success of robosocialism: strikebreaking 23:39:45 p. cool idea, little to no validation that it would work 23:40:06 if I were dictator I would probably institute democratic futarchy just to see what happens 23:40:10 vote on values, bet on outcomes! 23:40:13 i guess nowadays they call that sort of thing operations research 23:40:32 Bike: i'll buy the most expensive Oracle ERP software and use it to run my country 23:40:36 futarchy strikes me as a bad idea 23:40:38 is futarchy where hermaphrodites are in power 23:40:44 is that "erotic roleplay" kmc 23:40:48 "vote on values, bet on outcomes!" has the advantage of fitting nicely on a sign or in a chant 23:40:55 Bike: yep it's where oracle makes most of their money 23:40:56 i have no idea what it means 23:40:59 so, a nice slogan 23:41:04 my slogan? 23:41:06 yeah 23:41:19 "E-Business Suite", ok 23:41:24 it means you use normal democratic methods to establish a socially agreed upon utility function 23:41:25 in my mind kmc's ideal state is not a place i want to live in 23:41:26 at all 23:41:33 "Within the overall rubric of Oracle Applications - Apps,[1] Oracle Corporation's E-Business Suite (also known as Applications/Apps or EB-Suite/EBS) consists of a collection of enterprise resource planning (ERP), customer relationship management (CRM), and supply-chain management (SCM) computer applications either developed or acquired by Oracle" oh so it is related 23:41:40 then you use prediction markets to decide the specific policies that should be pursued to fulfill that utility function 23:41:44 * Bike hacks at jargon with a machete 23:42:28 the idea is that the market is better at figuring out what will 'work', but has a cruel and cold idea of what it wants, so the proper role of government is to make the market want 'good' things 23:42:29 prediction markets... 23:42:37 why is this called "futarchy" 23:42:40 futures 23:42:51 oh, good, i was expecting "it's the government of the future" 23:43:01 heh 23:43:05 'It was named by the New York Times as a buzzword of 2008' 23:43:16 robin hanson is kind of... robin hanson 23:43:22 i've heard that 23:43:47 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:43:54 so kmc you know how you mock people who get cs degrees and realise they can totally fix the world 23:44:15 well, at least he's citing the system of some actual (if possibly crazy) economist instead of making shit up 23:44:58 i think economics stopped making sense to me around the time i read a paper about how the market being efficient would imply P=NP 23:45:49 well please, go ahead and fix it! 23:46:07 what, economics? 23:46:09 Bike, seems to me the same argument could be applied to, like objectivists. 23:46:13 *like, 23:46:14 the world 23:46:15 kmc: a thought: you are unlikely to figure out how to better the world better than people who have already tried to figure out how to better the world 23:46:16 Phantom_Hoover: yeah 23:46:20 Phantom_Hoover: that was sort of the idea 23:46:29 so you could figure out what they do and do that instead. except probably their methods involve being rich 23:46:36 Phantom_Hoover: since libertarians usually believe the market is efficient because they know shit-all 23:46:38 also I'm bullshitting and don't seriously claim that I should be put in charge to institute futarchy 23:46:48 i said "just to see what happens" 23:46:54 kmc: anyway 23:46:56 kmc: another thought 23:46:59 kmc for indecisive president 23:47:04 elliott: yeah, that was my previous plan, make lots of money and give it to those people 23:47:13 kmc: if you are asking a random lazy 17-year-old on IRC what to do with your life you've probably hit rock bottom 23:47:21 so do absolutely anything else and your life will improve!! 23:47:24 maybe I should just find a finance company that doesn't suck 23:47:25 elliott: haha 23:47:28 i thought you were 18 now 23:47:33 in a few months 23:47:35 when is elliott day 23:47:38 august 22 23:47:39 proto-18 23:47:44 i'm a random lazy 18-year-old on irc 23:47:49 if anything i'm randomer and lazier 23:48:02 Phantom_Hoover: you actually do things though 23:48:02 i feel like I went from being usually the youngest person in a room to usually the oldest without any intermediate phase 23:48:16 elliott, do i 23:48:18 do i really 23:48:33 Phantom_Hoover: do you have that mathematics degree yet 23:48:34 I woke up one day and I was like. not 18 anymore and suddenly old 23:48:37 august 22 <-- is that your birthday? 23:48:38 no 23:48:43 hagb4rd: yes 23:48:46 Fiora: imo 18 is pretty old 23:48:50 im 23th ;) 23:48:51 practically ancient 23:48:51 probably i should have revised today 23:49:05 I think it was around the time I was doing my taxes ;-; 23:49:10 23rd 23:49:13 my grey hairs conceal a head of wrinkles and soon i will evaporate into dust 23:49:15 whatever 23:49:24 i liked 23th 23:49:27 twentythreeth 23:49:40 i remember turning 18 because i spent most of that day sitting in a car driving to coventry 23:49:52 Phantom_Hoover: the horrors of aging 23:50:08 and most of that evening trying not to think about my kitchenware 23:50:11 not too much longer until christmas cake 23:50:14 oh god 23:50:20 is this what i will be like when i turn 18 23:50:27 driving to coventry... thinking about kitchenware... 23:50:31 XD 23:50:44 kmc: apropos of nothing maybe you could try reading some economist like amartya sen? he got an econ nobel and most of his work is on poor people and starvation 23:50:55 sounds real uplifting 23:51:00 -!- c00kiemon5ter has left. 23:51:06 you know, my life has been lacking in "sent to coventry" jokes of late 23:51:09 Poor People & The Starvation Thereof: A Treatise 23:51:20 in retrospect this is quite surprising 23:51:37 elliott: "Poverty and Famines : An Essay on Entitlements and Deprivation" 23:51:44 Bike: see I basically nailed it 23:51:47 yep 23:52:22 tackles such uplifting subjects as the bengal famine (three million dead) and the holodomor (another three million dead) (both mostly from human error) 23:52:45 i thought the latter was more from stalin not giving a shit about ukraine 23:52:52 that sounds like human error 23:52:55 stalin error 23:53:06 stalin error: he wasn't a very nice person 23:53:11 yeah what he said 23:53:15 kmc: thats extactly what i had to think about 23:53:27 it's not like the british authorities much cared about bengal either 23:53:29 was the bengal famine the one churchill was evil about 23:53:41 did you know: wikipedia has an article on famines in british india, specifically 23:53:47 fun place fun times 23:53:48 man I knew churchill had to be evil 23:54:00 everyone likes him way too much and he sounded kind of like a jerk so i was suspicious 23:54:09 oh he was definitely a jerk 23:54:16 I guess selling car insurance is pretty evil to start with [BRITISH LAUGH TRACK] 23:54:26 seen a documentary lastly..it's called "soviet story"..there is a lot of shocking facts that are mostly unknown to the public (or at least they're not very popular) 23:54:41 the house my mum was born in was (formerly) owned by churchill 23:54:42 come on. that was good. Phantom_Hoover?? 23:54:43 was it 7 million deaths? 23:54:47 do they have those ads in scotland 23:54:54 he inherited, like, half the antrim coast from his aunt 23:54:55 churchill also wrote a book about riding around in pakistan 23:55:02 hagb4rd: the holodomor? 23:55:10 was it called like that? 23:55:18 he might have been a dick about that but i dunno 23:55:19 ok i have to say it. holodomor just sounds like a cross between holocaust and mordor 23:55:32 the holodomor is the famine in the ukraine in the 30s. 23:55:40 i said i had to say it!! 23:55:43 elliott: it's the same "holo" in "holocaust", good job 23:55:51 tip: that means "death" 23:55:51 it's the kind of name you should give the worst possible thing 23:55:55 what does it mean.. 23:55:56 isn't 'holo'... 'whole' 23:55:57 ok 23:56:04 then what's a hologram Bike 23:56:05 actually 23:56:10 it also sounds kind of like dumbledore 23:56:43 i'm not saying dumbledore, hitler and sauron conspired to cause a famine in ukraine, but... 23:56:49 Bike, yeah holocaust is whole-burnt, you UNEDUCATED FUCK 23:56:49 i'm saying it's not IMPOSSIBLE 23:57:08 Phantom_Hoover: ok well "holodomor" is "wholly starved" then 23:57:11 its ironic the export of grain reached its height the same years 23:57:12 very straightforward. 23:57:18 or maybe its not ironic 23:57:20 is holocaust wholly died 23:57:25 elliott, and you have a go at me for a couple of ill-advised suicide jokes 23:57:26 oh 23:57:29 he literally just said that 23:57:33 by he i mean Phantom_Hoover 23:57:38 hagb4rd: it's not ironic, similar things happened in bengal and ireland and such, Sen goes over this stuff 23:57:41 Phantom_Himver 23:57:59 hagb4rd: also if you want Shitty Soviet Things i highly recommend looking up Operation Lentil 23:58:04 it was absolutely inteded by stalin 23:58:19 for that its NOT ironic 23:58:23 operation... 23:58:24 lentil 23:58:24 exucse me 23:58:31 Phantom_Hoover: i know, right? 23:58:45 it doesn't even involve fucking lentils 23:59:03 there were TWO FUCKING OPERATION LENTILS........ 23:59:04 like... 23:59:07 there's a disambiguation page 23:59:12 but why 23:59:31 uncreative military planners hth 23:59:36 man it's always siberia