←2013-05-11 2013-05-12 2013-05-13→ ↑2013 ↑all
00:00:16 <elliott> you're terrible
00:00:28 <Bike> and i'm this channel. checkmate
00:00:38 <kmc> we can all be terrible together
00:01:00 <Phantom___Hoover> i hate you, you hate me, we're an awful family
00:02:35 -!- elliott has set topic: we can all be terrible together | http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
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00:17:03 <Bike> you know what suddenly seems really weird? almost every organism uses the exact same mapping from DNA codons to amino acids. What's Up With That
00:17:17 <elliott> they follow the RFC
00:17:40 <Bike> look if i know anything about programming it's that no one follows the standard
00:17:55 <Bike> what's your secret, god
00:18:15 <Bike> maybe god just smites anything with too different a translation.
00:18:26 <Bike> billions of uppity prokaryotes smited every day
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00:34:42 <elliott> Bike: god is the only person who can enforce MUST NOTs
00:34:56 <elliott> they should rename MUST NOT to WHY NOT TRY
00:36:09 <Sgeo> OpenBSD is still putting out songs :)
00:36:21 <elliott> openbsd still committing crimes against music
00:36:53 <Sgeo> http://www.openbsd.org/lyrics.html
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00:37:53 <Bike> THOU SHALT NOT
00:38:00 <Phantom_Hoover> 00:17:03: <Bike> you know what suddenly seems really weird? almost every organism uses the exact same mapping from DNA codons to amino acids. What's Up With That
00:38:12 <Bike> hello
00:38:25 <Phantom_Hoover> well isn't that, like, the first thing you have to develop to self-replicate
00:38:43 <elliott> no first you need to write the tests
00:38:45 <Sgeo> Pond-erosa Puff wouldn't take no guff
00:38:57 <Phantom_Hoover> stop doctor whoing sgeo
00:39:07 <Bike> Well, that depends if you buy the RNA world thing
00:39:09 <Phantom_Hoover> i told you to watch farscape, fucking watch it, it's way better
00:39:15 <Bike> in which case RNA would be first
00:39:15 <Sgeo> Pond-erosa Puff has nothing to do with Doctor Who
00:39:22 <Phantom_Hoover> THE POINT STILL STANDS
00:39:37 <Sgeo> Well, you also told me to stop reading Homestuck.
00:39:40 <Bike> but i don't see why cell membraney things couldn't have come around first, at least hypothetically
00:39:43 <Sgeo> Which, I guess I did.
00:39:57 <Bike> more like homestuck stopped reading you (think about it)
00:40:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, see, fate wants you to do what i say
00:40:26 <Bike> anyway the level of variation is interesting, mitochondria and plastids have slightly different schemes
00:40:31 <Bike> as do a few obscure fungi and things like that
00:41:00 <Phantom_Hoover> ...when did fungi diverge from everything else
00:41:20 <Bike> roughly a fucking long time ago
00:41:34 <Bike> (iunno, cambrian maybe)
00:41:46 <Sgeo> What OpenBSD song should I listen to?
00:41:56 <Bike> cambrian's a pretty good guess for when anything that fundamental happened imo
00:42:03 <Phantom_Hoover> it is the cambrian and there is time for evolving
00:42:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, the farscape one
00:43:16 <Bike> "around 1,500 million years ago" says wikipedia
00:43:25 <Bike> so way precambrian oops
00:47:27 * Sgeo might go start reading Watchmen
00:50:43 <Phantom_Hoover> are you just trying to make me hate you
00:50:46 <Phantom_Hoover> because mission
00:50:47 <Phantom_Hoover> fucking
00:50:49 <Phantom_Hoover> accomplished
00:51:13 <Bike> not a watchman fan?
00:54:08 <Phantom_Hoover> no he's just COMMITTED to not watching farscape even though i've told him a thousand times
00:54:40 <Phantom_Hoover> i am forced to conclude that he has an inverted sense of good
00:55:06 <Bike> antimoral
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01:02:14 -!- ?unknown? has set topic: is now the focus of a legal battle between Pull My Finger and iFart | Chinese graphics card problem resolved! (Again!) | I +JmU UTF-7 | http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
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01:07:37 <zzo38> That doesn't seem a proper conclusion given the available premises.
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01:09:08 <Phantom_Hoover> zzo38, ok look
01:09:15 <Phantom_Hoover> premise: farscape is good
01:09:23 <Phantom_Hoover> premise: doctor who is fucking awful these days
01:09:43 <Phantom_Hoover> premise: one will tend to watch things that are good, and avoid things that are bad
01:09:55 <Phantom_Hoover> premise: sgeo watches doctor who and does not watch farscape
01:09:56 <Phantom_Hoover> q.
01:09:57 <Phantom_Hoover> e.
01:09:58 <Phantom_Hoover> d.
01:10:08 <coppro> I dispute premises 2 and 3
01:10:42 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, if I had time I would watch Farscape
01:10:50 <Sgeo> ...it occurs to me that I do have time.
01:11:06 <zzo38> I don't know about premises 1 and 2, but it can be a matter of opinion or of context, and there are other reasons too so 3 is not perfect either. Also, different people might like different thing, even if one is good otherwise.
01:11:26 <Phantom_Hoover> you have the time you are spending watching doctor who where are you not understanding this
01:11:29 <Bike> your syllogism's showing some serious holes phantom!!
01:11:36 <zzo38> Bike: I agree.
01:11:50 <Phantom_Hoover> premise: i disagree and i am right
01:11:54 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, I will watch more Farscape.
01:12:01 <coppro> Phantom_Hoover: I especially disagree with the conclusion that premise 3 applies to sgeo
01:12:03 <Sgeo> Although does Amazon keep track of watched videos?
01:12:11 <coppro> it's been a long time since I assumed sgeo to be a rational actor
01:12:34 <Sgeo> If not, that would make it annoying to keep track of which ep I'm on, unless I stick with Hulu
01:12:57 <Sgeo> :(
01:13:08 <Sgeo> What have I done that's so irrational?
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02:17:13 * Sgeo wonders if PH would rather him watch Farscape or finish DS9
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02:51:54 <elliott> Bike: teach me about china
02:52:42 <Bike> what do u want 2 kno
02:53:00 <elliott> well i just realised i have no idea how communist china came to be a thing and that's pretty embarrassing!
02:53:05 <elliott> i know like 0 history
02:53:13 <pikhq> 中華人民共和国?
02:53:32 <Bike> elliott: well ok lessee
02:53:34 <elliott> i also know like 0 chinese alt. japanese
02:53:35 <Lumpio-> 中華人民共和国(笑)
02:53:59 <pikhq> So I'm not gonna type it in right, sue me.
02:54:00 <Bike> in 1910 china was ruled by the qing dynasty, who were foreign (fsvo "foreign") manchus ruling over the han
02:54:19 <Bike> in 1911 the xinhua revolution happened and the monarchy got fucked
02:54:30 <Lumpio-> No I'm laughing at the fact that they call themselves a democracy
02:54:38 <elliott> i skimmed the wikipedia article ``chinese civil war'' and it seems that roughly half of it is usa. even in chinese history there is no escape
02:54:46 <Bike> "is usa"?
02:54:52 <elliott> things the usa did.
02:54:56 <Bike> oh well yeah
02:54:57 <pikhq> They don't. They call themselves a People's Republic.
02:55:01 <elliott> (in china, hth)
02:55:13 <elliott> okay continue
02:55:18 <Bike> the republic was stable for about five minutes before the "warlord era" started, which was fucking crazy
02:55:22 <pikhq> You'll notice there is no 民主主義 in there.
02:55:32 <Bike> lots of generals/warlords/etc ruling oer their own areas, killing people, etc
02:55:47 <elliott> love those five minute republics
02:56:00 <Lumpio-> Republic, democracy, close enough
02:56:04 <Lumpio-> They probably translated it wrong.
02:56:26 <zzo38> If making a contest for text adventure game, and people can vote on the different things about the game, what should be the possible things to vote on?
02:56:29 <Bike> by like uh, 1930 probably, there was a "«'stable'»" group called the Kuomintang, or KMT for short
02:56:34 <Bike> and there were also commies (not yet under mao)
02:56:35 <pikhq> In modern times a "republic" is a non-monarchal state.
02:56:43 <pikhq> And they are definitely not under a monarchy.
02:57:00 <Bike> then japan invaded (oh shit!!) and set up a puppet state in manchuria (i.e. the northern... half... kinda)
02:57:02 * Sgeo goes to watch some Farscape
02:57:19 <elliott> what's up with you japan
02:57:21 <Bike> the KMT and communists "cooperated" to get the japanese out, which they didn't do
02:57:42 <pikhq> elliott: Imperial Japan was basically a "fuck you we wanna conquer the world" state.
02:57:56 <elliott> pikhq: we did that too
02:57:56 <Bike> then WWII happened (or like, it was part of WWII, or well fuck history) and japan lost as you may have heard
02:57:58 <elliott> imo we were better at it
02:58:09 <elliott> Bike: michael bay told me all about that
02:58:17 <Bike> the soviet union declared war on japan and - i want to emphasize this - invaded manchuria and took it over in eleven days
02:58:24 <elliott> what was the kmt's deal also
02:58:42 <elliott> i hear they're taiwan now (file under: things i read on wikipedia five minutes ago)
02:58:58 <Bike> the kmt were at that time a semi-fascist, capitalistish, democratishsorta party that the West liked
02:59:09 <pikhq> Read: "not communist".
02:59:11 <elliott> so like america then :-D :-D :-D
02:59:23 <Bike> anyway so the soviet union invaded the north and as you might expect they were more sympathetic to the communists
02:59:53 <Bike> and then the chinese civil war happened, again, and a bajillion people died and the KMT retreated to Taiwan
03:00:16 <Bike> (and taiwan's history is itself kind of crazy)
03:00:36 <elliott> and then just like, communist party said "job done, time for Complete Communism" and that was it??
03:00:49 <Bike> oh, i missed the long march. well back in the 30s the KMT had some big anti-commie campaign and the communists went on this horrible grueling march during which Mao was leaderful and that's how he got into power.
03:01:13 <elliott> note to self: help out with march, become communist leader???
03:01:15 <Bike> Well, yeah, after pushing the KMT out they were more or less in control, insofar as you can be in control of an area the size of China less than a decade after the most violent war in recorded history.
03:01:39 <elliott> but they didn't even do the communist ritual or anything???
03:01:51 <elliott> no WONDER china is such a mess [laugh track]
03:02:11 <Bike> if you want to get into history in the communist era i really don't know that as well (which is saying something)
03:02:39 <Bike> but like the great leap forward happened, durin which mao and other leaders did some increeeeedibly stupid things, such as using lysenko's theories (years after the soviets had kind of abandoned them)
03:02:57 <Bike> stupid things killed like what, 50 million people probably, from starvation etc
03:03:03 <Bike> imo that kinda sucked.
03:03:55 <Bike> Then after that Mao was like "food? NO man what you need is ENCOURAGEMENT" and the cultural revolution happened, which like burned down temples and stuff but got those kids PUMPED about COMMUNISM that's RAD!
03:04:00 <elliott> it's a good thing nobody has invented a time machine because imo the guilt re: all the stuff you have to spend a lot of effort going to fix would be totally lame
03:04:21 <Bike> did you read that story "wikihistory" that was on boing boing like thirty years ago
03:04:24 <elliott> wow i'm feeling pumped about communism already
03:04:30 <elliott> uh yes i think so
03:04:38 <elliott> if i did i didn't get it from boing boing though
03:04:58 <Bike> you might remember that the AsianAvenger guy in it was concerned about a pre-xinhua thing called the Taiping Rebellion
03:05:22 <Bike> in the 1800s some guy declared himself to be jesus's brother and started a rebellion that got uh... "more people than WWI" killed roughly
03:05:43 <Bike> basically the qing dynasty was utterly fucked there for a while
03:05:49 <elliott> i think the main problem is that china has too many people
03:05:52 <elliott> if they had fewer people
03:05:58 <elliott> then less people would die when bad things happen
03:06:14 <Bike> well elliott if you'd been paying attention you'd notice that for a while they've been trying their damnedest to reduce the number of people!
03:06:40 <elliott> bike....
03:06:41 <mnoqy> something about too many dudes and not enough gal's. cant wait till they all die off
03:06:42 <elliott> as if i would pay attention
03:06:55 <mnoqy> "that'll be exciting"
03:07:01 <Bike> good because i made that all up for a fantasy story
03:07:10 <elliott> china fanfiction
03:07:16 <mnoqy> !!!!!!!!why would you do that
03:07:20 <mnoqy> i want my history REAL
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03:08:08 <Bike> i should probably mention joseph needham i guess
03:08:16 <mnoqy> need ham???
03:08:21 <Bike> he was like a chemist or whatever that wrote this thirty volume set on the history of technology in china
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03:08:48 <Bike> basically the reason for that "wow ancient china actually had a pretty good thing going" you hopefully had in school (before that it was racister probably??)
03:09:04 <Bike> well not ancient but like, old.
03:09:07 <Bike> "ancient"'s a dumb word
03:09:15 <mnoqy> good ol' china
03:09:25 <elliott> man i honestly don't remember anything about ancient hcina in school
03:09:30 <elliott> but i like paid zero attention to history
03:09:42 <Bike> well... i can't blame you i mean there's a lot of it
03:09:44 <elliott> all i remember is like infinite numbers of fucking tudor king shits
03:09:48 <elliott> over and over
03:09:49 <elliott> for months
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03:10:05 <elliott> successfully ensured i would never care about a king of england ever
03:10:15 <Bike> maybe i should sum up some "key facts" you can use to pretend to be informed to your newsreading pals
03:10:36 <Bike> like... tibet and the northwest (xinjiang) have been independentish at various points
03:10:47 <elliott> bike
03:10:49 <elliott> i don't have any pals
03:10:51 <mnoqy> i think i have to take an american history sometime but uuugh why american history that's probably soooo boring
03:10:55 <elliott> oh right what's it with tibet
03:11:00 <Bike> well uh
03:11:05 <Bike> tibet was a theocracy in the mountains
03:11:12 <Bike> as you might expect they weren't like... important
03:11:17 <mnoqy> more boring than tudor king shits??? quite possibly
03:11:38 <elliott> only theocracy ruled by a llama
03:11:43 <elliott> World's First
03:11:54 <Bike> at some point the british got in there and were like "well, yeah, we'll control your diplomacy or whatever" and the leaders were like "ok"? maybe had a little war, i dunno, i don't think tibet's had a significant military since the 1300s
03:12:17 <Bike> in like 1950 the PRC (that's communist china) took over and well there's been "some argument" about that
03:12:25 <elliott> i hear it's a bit unpopular yes
03:12:35 <elliott> why did they take over (given: theocracy in the mountains; not... important)
03:12:45 <elliott> i guess probably: communism
03:12:51 <Bike> yeah i'm not sure really
03:13:03 <elliott> theocommunism
03:13:10 <elliott> best of both worlds: sharing AND llama
03:13:23 <Bike> anyway i want to mention that the northwest of china is worth remembering; for one it has a huge muslim population
03:13:44 <Bike> so like, keep that in mind, china isn't all "ancient buddhist wisdom" or whatever
03:13:53 <elliott> ancient muslim wisdom
03:14:04 <Bike> right
03:14:57 <Bike> hm, i guess they took over kind of because it was in a dumb limbo situation and just... why not, it had been part of china at various points anyway
03:16:29 <elliott> good a reason as any
03:16:33 <Bike> that's most of what i got. way more interesting than tudor shits imo
03:17:55 <kmc> "I also have this machine plugged into a Kill-a-Watt I had bought when I thought I was going to do the Tweet-A-Watt project (unfinished because I accidentally crushed the XBee under a keg)"
03:18:48 <mnoqy> btw whats a tudor shit
03:18:50 <mnoqy> im uncultured
03:19:26 <Bike> probably a shit by the tudor dynasty? i never had british history in school
03:19:50 <Bike> i think there's an HBO programme about tudor shits
03:21:38 <mnoqy> "Having a tudor shit in a tudor robe #classic"
03:21:56 <mnoqy> Mar 7, 2010 – Dane tudor shit... Dane tudor shit... View Full Size Image. Details; Share. Views: 444. Score: -3. Title: Dane tudor shit... Uploader: RoguePube ...
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03:22:17 <Bike> elliott what do they teach you
03:23:39 <mnoqy> https://twitter.com/mkpepper/status/244427490968350720/photo/1
03:23:53 <kmc> did we stop nutsplatting
03:24:11 <mnoqy> ye. now we're tudor shitting
03:24:20 <kmc> 420 shit tudors everyday
03:24:49 <Bike> what's... nutsplatting
03:25:39 <mnoqy> what does it sound like
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03:47:53 <kmc> shachaf: hichaf
03:58:05 <shachaf> hi kmc
03:58:09 * shachaf is back in CA
04:02:04 <kmc> how is it
04:02:22 <shachaf> It's good hth
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04:06:48 <shachaf> Any reason for the hichaf?
04:07:04 <shachaf> Also I should probably hilight <kmc>.*chaf\b.*
04:16:46 <kmc> no reason really
04:16:49 <kmc> just sayin' hi
04:18:57 <shachaf> yoeeganawg
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04:36:50 <elliott> hey what happened the topic I set
04:36:51 <elliott> netsplit?
04:36:56 -!- elliott has set topic: we can all be terrible together | http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
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05:14:51 <mnoqy> shachaf: btw what's a hero
05:16:29 <Bike> hero solves triangles and makes jets and doesn't afraid of anything, iirc
05:17:39 <mnoqy> shachaf: elliott thinks i should be more like you. can you teach me how?
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07:03:14 <zzo38> Have you seen ifMUD?
07:08:44 <Sgeo> Is there also an elseMUD
07:08:45 <Sgeo> >
07:08:46 <Sgeo> ?
07:09:03 <Bike> uninteractive fiction mud
07:09:25 <Bike> you just sit and watch some NPCs talk about nonexistent real lives and fight monsters and roleplay furry ex or whatever happens in muds
07:09:43 <oklopol> (endMUD)
07:10:12 <Taneb> Bike, there's a few of those doing that
07:10:30 <Taneb> There's a company called BBC that makes a few nice ones
07:10:43 <elliott> Bike: i'd watch
07:10:52 <Bike> you're a sick man, elliott.
07:10:57 <Bike> sick boy
07:11:02 <elliott> yes
07:11:15 <elliott> i like "furry ex"
07:12:55 <Bike> gross!!
07:13:40 <oklopol> show of hands who has a furry ex
07:15:20 <zzo38> What if your hands fell off?
07:15:52 <Bike> presumably you would no longer be as concerned with displaying your furry ex status
07:16:39 <oklopol> zzo38: then you cannot vote
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09:02:28 <ion> fizzie dude: Yeah, it was me.
09:03:47 <elliott> (?)
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09:28:29 <ion> (!)
09:28:35 <elliott> help
09:28:42 <ion> halp
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10:14:10 <nortti> "systemd, [...] is an all-devouring octopus monster about crawl out of the sea and eat Tokyo and spit it out as a giant binary logfile."
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11:13:36 <Vorpal> nortti, harsh words, does it deserve that?
11:14:30 <Vorpal> Also I think my computer is not thermally sound, I'm compiling gcc at -j4, and CPU temp is at 73 C
11:14:31 <Vorpal> Core 2: +73.0°C (high = +80.0°C, crit = +98.0°C)
11:14:36 <Vorpal> sure it is fine, just
11:15:26 <Vorpal> And the case fans are on max, that seems to prevent it from raising further
11:15:43 <elliott> people just like to get upset about systemd because <linux nerds>
11:15:48 <elliott> it's terrible just like every part of linux is terrible
11:16:20 <elliott> but i don't miss the seconds of my bootup process and the control/monitoring tools work just fine
11:16:34 <Vorpal> But this is worrying, since I'm considering getting new case fans (one one them makes weird clicking noises). The one I'm looking at has slightly less airflow than my current one, so eeeh...
11:16:44 <Vorpal> one of*
11:17:33 <Vorpal> elliott, hm, I can't say I'm bothered with my current boot time enough to use systemd. Less than 30 seconds from grub to X login prompt is fine by me
11:18:22 <Vorpal> Most of that is spent on DHCP anyway
11:19:40 <elliott> i didn't switch to systemd because i cared about my boot time
11:19:45 <elliott> i switched because my distro switched to it
11:19:59 <Vorpal> Which distro do you currently use?
11:20:22 <elliott> arch
11:20:29 <Vorpal> Ah
11:20:58 <elliott> the switch also eliminated all the "distro-specific" config stuff for things like the network and timezone and so on, which is nice, because it means the same way of configuring things will transfer if I switch to another distro
11:21:08 <elliott> (that has also migrated)
11:21:15 <Vorpal> Hm
11:21:27 <Vorpal> systemd replaces cron, syslog and a few more doesn't it?
11:21:39 <elliott> also i no longer have to add myself to random groups to get things working which is nice.
11:22:03 <elliott> Vorpal: well, I think distros still ship cron, even though systemd has timer-y stuff which could replace it in theory
11:22:06 <elliott> it does do the logging thing
11:22:20 <elliott> (and yes the journal file it logs to is binary. but i don't care. the querying tools work fine.)
11:22:23 <Vorpal> So it doesn't read standard crontab then?
11:22:26 <elliott> it can also forward to syslog I hear
11:22:34 <Vorpal> hm I thought consolekit or whatever handled the "random group" stuff
11:22:39 <elliott> Vorpal: well, that *would* be pointless
11:22:43 <elliott> why would you just roll cron into process 1?
11:23:04 <Vorpal> elliott, I don't know, people seem to complain that systemd is doing too much anyway so meh
11:23:08 <elliott> systemd is basically like OS X's launchd, if you know anything about it
11:23:17 <Vorpal> I do like the principle of "one program does one thing, and does it well"
11:23:34 <elliott> it doesn't matter how much a program does. nobody cares about that. and no system has followed the one tool for the job philosophy for the past several decades
11:23:39 <Vorpal> I'm not much of an OS X expert no, but I understood it basically combines several services into one
11:23:46 <elliott> something like upstart is already a big mess. it doesn't matter
11:23:58 <Vorpal> yeah, I don't use upstart either, I'm on Debian
11:24:16 <Vorpal> It is ubuntu that uses upstart
11:24:23 <Vorpal> and yes, upstart is even more of a mess than systemd
11:24:36 <elliott> I think Debian were planning to move to systemd or something too.
11:24:49 <Vorpal> They are I think
11:25:04 <elliott> another thing that is nice is that the services are not defined in massive hideous duplicated ad-hoc shell scripts
11:25:17 <elliott> say what you like about ini files, they're a hell of a lot less mess.
11:25:20 <Vorpal> Does systemd handle network too? Or does it leave that to network-manager or whatever?
11:25:41 <elliott> it handles my network, yes
11:25:43 <Vorpal> upstart files are quite nice too
11:26:24 <elliott> i think it can like integrate with network manager or whatever
11:26:29 <elliott> i just have
11:26:34 <elliott> $ systemctl status dhcpcd@eth0.service
11:26:34 <elliott> dhcpcd@eth0.service - dhcpcd on eth0
11:26:34 <elliott> Loaded: loaded (/usr/lib/systemd/system/dhcpcd@.service; enabled)
11:26:34 <elliott> Active: active (running) since Sat 2013-05-11 13:30:02 BST; 22h ago
11:26:34 <elliott> Process: 250 ExecStart=/usr/sbin/dhcpcd -q -w %I (code=exited, status=0/SUCCESS)
11:26:37 <elliott> Main PID: 311 (dhcpcd)
11:26:38 <Vorpal> Hm, that will be annoying to transfer on my RPi when the time comes. It has static IP, servers an IPv6 tunnel and does crazy "use different routing tables for different local UIDs" to route one user through a VPN tunnel
11:26:40 <elliott> CGroup: name=systemd:/system/dhcpcd@.service/dhcpcd@eth0.service
11:26:42 <elliott> └─311 /usr/sbin/dhcpcd -q -w eth0
11:26:49 <Vorpal> serves*
11:26:55 <Vorpal> Hm
11:27:44 <elliott> hm, nix switched to systemd. I wonder if it's matured at all since the last time I looked at it.
11:28:18 <Vorpal> NixOS? Kind of cool, but iirc rather immature, a lot of missing packages and so on
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11:28:40 <elliott> i should just switch to windows or something. works for spj.
11:28:54 <Vorpal> spj?
11:29:43 <Vorpal> Anyway windows (win 7 at least) is much slower to boot than Linux from the same HDD. Usually takes minute from login screen until the OS is actually responsive.
11:30:33 <elliott> simon peyton-jones.
11:30:53 <Vorpal> Is it someone I should know of?
11:30:59 <elliott> yes.
11:31:08 <Vorpal> Okay, what is he known for then?
11:32:17 * oerjan prepares elliott for post-traumatic Vorpal contact treatment
11:32:37 <myname> .oO( sir vorpal kickass'o
11:32:45 <Phantom_Hoover> imo ban vorpal
11:32:45 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_Peyton_Jones
11:32:58 <elliott> oerjan: you could kick him for not knowing who spj is.
11:33:07 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +v oerjan.
11:33:11 <elliott> lo, it is a sign.
11:33:24 <Vorpal> I don't keep track of names really, why should I?
11:33:32 <Vorpal> So he is a haskell guy, okay.
11:33:34 <oerjan> elliott: i suppose, but then i'd have to actually log into my nick first
11:34:24 <Vorpal> Nice bowtie in that photo btw
11:34:25 <myname> anybody here reading goblins comic?
11:35:20 <elliott> oerjan: ah, if only I had been opped...
11:36:35 <fizzie> ion dude: dude.
11:36:44 <oerjan> myname: my reading of goblins came to an abrupt stop at the point when Kore killed that dwarf child hth
11:37:49 <myname> why that?
11:38:22 <oerjan> it got a whole lot too dark for me at that point hth
11:39:07 <myname> well yeah, but that's part of what makes it this good
11:39:57 <oerjan> similarly, i took a year-long hiatus on oots after the familicide event.
11:40:30 <myname> i wasn't that far at oots
11:40:41 <myname> have to find some good way for reading it
11:41:03 <Phantom_Hoover> when you say dark
11:41:07 <myname> there is no usable general webcomic reader for android :(
11:41:12 <Phantom_Hoover> do you mean ~dark and edgy@~
11:41:14 <oerjan> which is why i only mentioned the word, not who or what it involved.
11:41:16 <Phantom_Hoover> s/@//
11:41:37 <elliott> wait is myname nortti
11:41:46 <myname> who?
11:41:54 <elliott> ok never mind
11:47:52 <oerjan> <JesseH> My language is getting somewhere. ^_^ Thanks for all the support. <-- #esoteric, the channel that splits off actual on-topic discussion.
11:51:25 -!- oerjan has set topic: #esoteric The channel which splits off on-topic discussion | we can all be terrible together | http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
11:52:05 <elliott> i sense an additional #esoteric
11:52:25 <oerjan> elliott: i think the discussion happened in #jesseh
11:52:46 <oerjan> not that i actually was there, mind you
11:53:41 <elliott> i mean in the topic.
11:54:08 <oerjan> wait what hm
11:54:15 -!- oerjan has set topic: The channel which splits off on-topic discussion | we can all be terrible together | http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
11:54:42 <oerjan> elliott: apparently webchat doesn't support including the actual channel in the /topic command
11:55:28 <oerjan> while in irssi you have to double it if you actually want it at the start of the topic
11:57:27 <elliott> right
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12:08:39 <oerjan> `addquote <Bike> ok confession time <Bike> because of the whole "generation" thing i thought that kids were born in waves until i was like twelve <Bike> and everybody like reproduced at the same time
12:08:43 <oerjan> quoting time
12:08:47 <HackEgo> 1035) <Bike> ok confession time <Bike> because of the whole "generation" thing i thought that kids were born in waves until i was like twelve <Bike> and everybody like reproduced at the same time
12:09:39 <nortti> `quote
12:09:39 <nortti> `quote
12:09:40 <nortti> `quote
12:09:41 <nortti> `quote
12:09:41 <nortti> `quote
12:09:44 <HackEgo> 409) <elliott> God, I sure do hate Apple and their header files that only include the functions they're specified to.
12:09:44 <HackEgo> 850) <kmc> so i guess my root of trust for Arch Linux is...typedef int f(float);
12:09:45 <HackEgo> 963) <Phantom_Hoover> As Brainfuck derivatives go, it's not all that bad, really.
12:09:45 <HackEgo> 112) <CakeProphet> how does a "DNA computer" work. <CakeProphet> von neumann machines? <Phantom_Hoover> CakeProphet, that's boring in the context of DNA. <Phantom_Hoover> It's just stealing the universe's work and passing it off as our own.
12:09:46 <HackEgo> 126) <fungot> pikhq: it was fragrant with the scent of abomination. hear a speech declaring a holy war, is the man insane? some idiot missionary gets himself killed, some man writes some gibberish about the shape of a dragon, wonse?"
12:10:04 <Phantom_Hoover> guy
12:10:05 <Phantom_Hoover> s
12:10:10 <Phantom_Hoover> when did i say 963
12:13:03 <oerjan> `pastequotes <Phantom_Hoover> As Brainfuck derivatives
12:13:04 <elliott> at approximately 963 quote standard time
12:13:10 <elliott> oerjan: logs?
12:13:16 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.4074
12:13:19 <oerjan> oops
12:13:26 <oerjan> `pastelogs <Phantom_Hoover> As Brainfuck derivatives
12:14:25 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.27970
12:14:42 <oerjan> wat
12:14:57 <oerjan> `pastelogs As Brainfuck derivatives
12:15:31 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.12399
12:15:52 <oerjan> 2013-03-02.txt:22:41:06: <Phantom_Hoover> As Brainfuck derivatives go, it's not all that bad, really.
12:15:55 <oerjan> hth
12:16:13 <Phantom_Hoover> what did i say it about
12:16:52 <Phantom_Hoover> you know if fizzie was doing this he'd have had the answer in 30 seconds and told me what colour jumper i was wearing
12:17:00 <Phantom_Hoover> i'm not impressed oerjan
12:17:39 <nortti> Phantom_Hoover: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Agony
12:17:50 <nortti> at least I think
12:18:07 <oerjan> nortti: hey there, i was just planning to let Phantom_Hoover look it up himself for that comment
12:18:15 <nortti> (just skimmed trough the logs from around the correct point)
12:18:48 <Phantom_Hoover> evidently this was meant to damn with faint praise
12:20:10 <nortti> it works! IT WORKS!
12:20:24 <oerjan> @tell Bike <Bike> you know what suddenly seems really weird? almost every organism uses the exact same mapping from DNA codons to amino acids. What's Up With That <-- i would assume that it is because whenever an organism _does_ change it, suddenly a large number of its proteins stop working simultaneously hth
12:20:25 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
12:20:26 <nortti> (it=netsurf framebuffer version trough sdl)
12:23:46 <zzo38> Another computer game idea I have is based on a diagram I remember that someone drew for me once. It was a directed graph; the nodes were drawn as faces, some of which had wavy lines above. The faces without wavy lines represented good monsters and the ones with wavy lines represented bad monsters. Probably additional kinds of pieces should be added, though.
12:23:53 <nortti> ok, correction to above. it starts up, in a 800x600 box, with invisible text
12:27:57 <FreeFull> If they are good should you still call them monsters?
12:28:21 <zzo38> Yes.
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12:40:49 <myname> zzo38: and what is the game behind that?
12:41:15 <zzo38> myname: I don't know, but some game played on a directed graph, I suppose.
12:42:04 <zzo38> I think you can have a free category of a simple digraph which results in a thin category, and that is the same as a partial ordering.
12:42:06 <myname> there are plenty of them, even if most of them aren't presented as such
12:50:50 <zzo38> Presumably these directed graphs form the data of a level of the game, or there could be some additional data needed to make up a level too (such as time limits or starting inventory or whatever).
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12:59:03 <zzo38> (I think only a free category of a directed acyclic graph is thin?)
12:59:26 <zzo38> (Unless you specifically make the other ones thin too, that is.)
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13:28:16 <zzo38> I invented different bishop adjust rule: If you have exactly two bishops on board, both standing on the same color square, then bishops have the additional move of one spcae orthogonal; capturing is also permitted with this move. If used in FIDE chess, this might mean that it is possible in some circumstances that promoting to a queen won't give check but underpromotion to a bishop will give check.
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13:53:31 <Phantom_Hoover> omfg catseye went down
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13:56:19 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: yes.
13:56:36 <Phantom_Hoover> the dark times are upon us once more
13:57:15 <oerjan> and i didn't find it anywhere else with google, either
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13:57:48 <elliott> oerjan: hi
13:57:57 <elliott> btw cpressey's github is still up
13:58:01 <elliott> presumably he is emailable and stuff
13:58:10 <oerjan> hm
13:58:23 <Phantom_Hoover> hey guys
13:58:35 <Phantom_Hoover> can i check if i'm banned in a channel without trying to join it
13:59:34 <boily> hi all from Québec City!
13:59:59 <Phantom_Hoover> does quebec exist though
13:59:59 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: what channel is it
14:00:07 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, it's not even on freenode
14:00:09 <Phantom_Hoover> have no fear
14:00:13 <elliott> is it
14:00:19 <elliott> #esoteric
14:00:36 <Phantom_Hoover> yes
14:00:47 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: you are banned on #esoteric? why did no one tell me!
14:00:59 <Phantom_Hoover> imo unban me
14:02:13 <oerjan> DONE HTH
14:02:22 <oerjan> nops are so easy, i wonder if they are monoids
14:02:34 <Phantom_Hoover> yes
14:02:37 <Phantom_Hoover> obviously
14:02:48 <Phantom_Hoover> they're monoids under composition
14:02:57 <oerjan> indeed!
14:03:18 <elliott> just like a category.
14:03:47 <Phantom_Hoover> they're categories under monoids
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14:06:27 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> does quebec exist though <-- i hear they are frequently trying to separate from canada, i assume they're tired of not existing.
14:07:00 <Phantom_Hoover> who wants a bunch of french people to exist though
14:07:18 <elliott> oerjan: btw I hope you will still love me if I spontaneously turn into conor mcbride overnight.
14:07:21 <elliott> (there have been signs.)
14:07:36 <oerjan> oh. that may be a bit much to handle.
14:08:49 <boily> Phantom_Hoover: it's not quite exclusively French anymore. 20% of canada's population is from an ethnic minority.
14:09:42 <boily> (we have two Montréals going on: mainly non-French west of St-Laurent Blvd., and mainly French east of it.)
14:12:51 <oerjan> hm possibly montreal might exist, it's in the name
14:13:36 <boily> oerjan: it looks real. it feels real. but I fear it may only be a lavish illusion.
14:14:07 <oerjan> shocking
14:14:35 <elliott> montreal is a place where everyone speaks french and is in a post-rock band
14:14:38 <elliott> and i'm pretty sure no place can actually exist
14:14:45 <elliott> the name is likely a clever indirection
14:14:49 <elliott> misdirection?
14:14:54 <boily> same thing.
14:17:32 <elliott> yes, says you, but you also says you from montreal.
14:17:38 <FreeFull> Does hexham exist?
14:17:44 <elliott> yes.
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14:21:37 <zzo38> What is the mathematical structure called of the transit system of this game? http://www.chessvariants.org/index/msdisplay.php?itemid=MSchessonamasstr
14:27:01 <oerjan> dunno
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14:32:38 <elliott> thoerjan
14:32:58 <shachaf> oerjan: What's a word that rhymes with oerjan?
14:33:15 <oerjan> no, what does not rhyme with oerjan hth
14:33:46 <shachaf> Please give me a word that rhymes with oerjan hth
14:34:09 <Vorpal> I'm so used to different coding styles nowdays that I have trouble reading my own old C code.
14:35:22 <zzo38> Vorpal: You do? What styles did you use what did other used?
14:35:43 <Vorpal> well,
14:36:00 <Vorpal> there is the question of newline or not before {, how to indent, stuff like that
14:36:32 <zzo38> Which did you use?
14:37:31 <Vorpal> I used the linux kernel coding convention basically, go look it up if you want, I'm kind of busy debugging this
14:38:58 <zzo38> There is also if when declaring a pointer variable, to put a space before or after or both sides of asterisk; I find all three ways confusing so I omit both spaces.
14:40:14 <zzo38> Often it is written like "int *x;" but this is confusing if there is an initialization value, since then it might seem to be initializing *x but actually it is the initial value of x not of *x.
14:42:11 <zzo38> What is your opinion of this?
14:42:33 <olsner> I think the space-on-both-sides alternative happens when people switch between int* x or int *x too often and get confused
14:44:23 <zzo38> O, maybe that is what it is. Somehow I find space on neither sides to be clearest. What way do you use in your own C programs?
14:46:44 <olsner> I don't know anymore
14:46:55 <olsner> I think I used to do space before
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14:48:58 <Vorpal> zzo38, I use type *var, *var2; and so on. The logical way is to put the * next to the variable name, since if you declare multiple variables separated with , type* var1, var2; would look confusing
14:49:10 <Vorpal> since that would make var1 a pointer, but not var2
14:49:19 <shachaf> Times Square is the only neighborhood with zoning ordinances requiring building owners to display illuminated signs.[27]
14:49:41 <zzo38> Vorpal: I know that, which is why "int* x" is confusing. However, because of initialization values, "int *x" is also confusing.
14:49:47 <Vorpal> Hm
14:49:51 <Vorpal> Not to me, but okay
14:51:28 <Vorpal> Also I'm more used to hg than bzr now
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16:33:22 <Gregor> Good typing, me X_X
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16:35:11 <coppro> #esoteric is the best channel
16:35:15 <coppro> but ##English is the weirdest
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17:13:25 <fizzie> Gregor-ian chants.
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17:16:20 <olsner> is that a double name, like Gregor-Ian Chants?
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17:19:20 <fizzie> Probably.
17:40:57 <zzo38> I don't like the decision of GCC to not delete empty loops. for(ix=0;ix!=10000;ix++); should be deleted, in my opinion; if you want it to force not to delete, you should write: for(ix=0;ix!=10000;ix++) volatile;
17:41:23 <zzo38> Therefore I think such a statement should be added in C.
17:42:19 <Bike> why isn't it deleted?
17:42:19 <lambdabot> Bike: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
17:43:28 <zzo38> GNU C doesn't delete it because you might put the loop to make it delay. I think that is not a good reason (it is also usually not the best way to make a delay); that is why I think there ought to be the statement which you can instead explicitly tell it not to delete the empty loop, like that.
17:43:34 <shachaf> Gregor: i miss mnoqy
17:43:41 <shachaf> Gregor: make mnoqy come back
17:44:00 <olsner> I guess gcc has special rules for loops that look like delay loops
17:44:10 <zzo38> You can cause it to be optimized even less by declaring the variable ix as volatile too.
17:44:41 <zzo38> olsner: And I don't like that kind of things. What would you think? Maybe it should be an option?
17:52:08 <fizzie> My GCC does delete that loop.
17:52:26 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/bUcS
17:52:38 <zzo38> The documentation says they don't want to make it delete that loop. Is the document wrong?
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17:55:47 <fizzie> Perhaps they've decided not to maintain the distinction between loops that became empty after optimization, and loops that were written empty; and the documentation has become outdated as a result. Who knows. (Folks on #gcc?)
18:00:53 <Vorpal> <zzo38> GNU C doesn't delete it because you might put the loop to make it delay. I think that is not a good reason (it is also usually not the best way to make a delay); that is why I think there ought to be the statement which you can instead explicitly tell it not to delete the empty loop, like that. <-- it is a reasonable way to create a delay in embedded code for some platforms
18:01:10 <Vorpal> zzo38, there is not really any reason to write a loop like that normally though
18:01:23 <zzo38> Vorpal: Yes, in some case it is; I didn't mean that it is *never* the way to write the delay.
18:02:08 <zzo38> Still, I don't like that optimization and that is why I think there should be the command "volatile;" which can be used if you do want to tell it to not be deleted.
18:02:35 <Vorpal> well they can't really add that to the C standard, a compiler intrinsic function would make more sense here
18:03:22 <zzo38> They can make it a extension when compiling in GNU mode, if you want to, though.
18:03:53 <Bike> can you not just have ix volatile
18:04:22 <zzo38> Yes, that works too, but maybe you don't want to disable that many optimizations. (I did mention that.)
18:06:57 <zzo38> If ix is not volatile, but you write "for(ix=0;ix!=10000;ix++) volatile;" but ix is not used at all afterward, then the compiler still has to ensure when writing the code surrounding the loop that it will execute the body 10000 times, even if it is empty.
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18:13:59 <Bike> hm, why are you writing an empty loop anyway, or are you expecting this to appear from optimizations
18:14:15 <Bike> if you don't want a busy loop i mean
18:14:42 <pikhq> *Damn* the wifi's being high latency right now.
18:14:49 <shachaf> zzo38: What does it mean to execute an empty body 10000 times? hth
18:15:04 <pikhq> I mean, shit, I'm actually getting notable predictions out of mosh right now.
18:16:06 <zzo38> Furthermore, if you write "for(ix=0;ix!=10000;ix++) volatile(ix);" then I want it to ensure the value of ix is stored somewhere during the loop (possibly in a register, and it doesn't necessarily have to be retained after the loop), and "for(ix=0;ix!=10000;ix++) volatile(&ix);" ensures it is in RAM.
18:17:39 <pikhq> #define volatile(x) { volatile typeof(x) _x = x; }
18:17:40 <zzo38> shachaf: To compile the code to make such a body but do nothing; if you write a for block, if block, etc that contains only things that are optimized out, some of which are volatile, then it must compile a NOP instruction. Otherwise, it doesn't have to compile a NOP instruction. For example, "if(1) volatile;" should make a NOP instruction since the condition can be optimized out.
18:18:22 <shachaf> Like, I don't think "NOP instruction", like, means anything in the, like, semantics of C, man.
18:18:24 <zzo38> pikhq: I suppose it can work in a few cases like that.
18:18:26 <shachaf> hth
18:19:03 <pikhq> shachaf: x = x;
18:19:06 <pikhq> :)
18:20:24 <pikhq> "Last contact x seconds ago." Holy *shit* mosh is dealing with a high latency link at this point.
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18:20:44 <pikhq> I guess I get to see how well its prediction works at least?
18:20:57 <pikhq> Which, really, is quite impressive.
18:21:14 <shachaf> pikhq: wlecmoe to every day for me? hth
18:21:17 <pikhq> Could be better, but then this is currently taking more time than packets to SPACE.
18:21:30 <pikhq> shachaf: I'm moshing on LAN here.
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18:21:48 <shachaf> OK.
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18:22:14 <pikhq> Somewhere, there is some ridiculous bufferbloat.
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18:24:29 <zzo38> What else I mean is that for example, if you write "if(x) volatile;" then, if x is known at compile-time to be zero, it makes nothing; if x is known to be nonzero, it makes NOP; if the value of x is not known at compile-time, it compiles a "branch if zero" instruction with an offset of zero (if allowed by the target), and does not compile a NOP (unless branches with offset of zero is not allowed by the target, in which case it branches to the point
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18:38:34 <tromp_> > (- 1)
18:38:39 <lambdabot> mueval: ExitFailure 1
18:38:39 <lambdabot> mueval: Prelude.undefined
18:41:00 <Jafet> > exitFailure >> undefined
18:41:06 <lambdabot> mueval: ExitFailure 1
18:41:06 <lambdabot> mueval: Prelude.undefined
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19:18:08 <Sgeo> o.O there's an HTTP 2.0 in the works
19:18:46 <olsner> as well as talks to use SPDY to replace HTTP
19:19:25 <olsner> or maybe that's rather being considered for becoming HTTP 2.0
19:25:33 <Sgeo> Current HTTP 2.0 spec is a copy of SPDY I think
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19:26:54 <Sgeo> Is Konqueror a more reasonable browser to use these days? Now that a derivative of KHTML is quite popular?
19:29:10 <Bike> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqel0k0NzNU I think I understand sgeo a lot better now.
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19:30:13 <Sgeo> The fun part is a number of those worlds I haven't been to before I saw that video
19:30:24 <Sgeo> Have seen the hand garden before though
19:30:35 <Sgeo> Some of those worlds are user-built
19:31:11 <Sgeo> 2d avatars like that tie-died kid aren't customizable
19:31:32 <Sgeo> Althoguh Samurai_Jack's avater is custom I think, a 3d av made into a flat panel
19:32:01 <Sgeo> That maze under the toilets is non-Euclidean (poossibly not the best way to describe it)
19:32:48 <Sgeo> That place where he says 'it's just a cube' is accessed by walking through a mirror
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19:35:37 <Sgeo> Yes, worlds can force you to say things
19:36:59 <fizzie> SA had a "Video Game Article" that also reminded me of Sgeo; it's in regards of Second Life; it's at http://www.somethingawful.com/d/video-game-article/meanwhile-second-life.php and it's kind of like a vignette.
19:39:10 <Lumpio-> Double semicolon
19:39:13 <Lumpio-> That's somewhat of a feat
19:40:11 <fizzie> It's probably somewhat of an inappropriate use of a semicolon.
19:41:10 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:SemicolonFreq.png we passed "peak semicolon" around 1800.
19:43:10 <Bike> are smicolons a renewable resource
19:43:20 <fizzie> I think they're mined.
19:45:07 <fizzie> Still, the last paragraph -- overdone as it was -- was quite evocative. (Not that I ever did any Second Living, I've just read about it, and the spiritual predecessors. Local computing magazines used to have articles in the early days of Virtual Reality.)
19:46:45 <myname> who the hell makes statistics about the usage of semicolons
19:46:51 <Lumpio-> Is all that random variance before 1800ish caused by lack of material to analyze?
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19:48:09 <fizzie> Lumpio-: Very probably.
19:48:35 <fizzie> myname: http://zem.fi/ircvis/esoteric/charfreq_punct.html is almost, but not quite, statistics about the usage of semicolons.
19:49:03 <fizzie> (Perhaps I should in fact make individual punctuation character pages too, given that there's already all of a-z.)
19:49:05 <myname> shouldn't it rise after invention of C?
19:49:25 <fizzie> It's probably made out of, you know, books, in general.
19:49:41 <fizzie> Well, Google Books, like it says.
19:49:46 <Lumpio-> What happened in late October
19:50:48 <fizzie> Should I try to figure out the right rrdtool magic to see which day it is exactly?
19:54:02 <fizzie> http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2012-10-26#212912shachaf at least quite a lot of dots happened.
19:54:50 <shachaf> fizzie: ?
19:54:53 <shachaf> What was *that* all about?
19:55:10 <fizzie> shachaf: Shouldn't *you* know?
19:55:17 <shachaf> No?
19:55:21 <shachaf> That looks like a really annoying thing to do.
19:55:58 <shachaf> I'm not sure why I'd do that.
19:56:40 <fizzie> Perhaps it was the evil shachaf.
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20:24:01 <SOLEIL> hi all
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20:31:32 <kmc> <Sgeo> That maze under the toilets is non-Euclidean
20:31:40 <kmc> t sgeo this sounds like a jerkcity line hth
20:32:01 <Bike> are we sure that sgeo isn't randy
20:32:39 <kmc> rands?
20:32:49 <kmc> i read rands's book on managing programmers
20:32:54 <kmc> it was............................................ "ok"
20:33:49 <Bike> that;s not very good.
20:34:13 <shachaf> <elliott> you're............................................ "ok"
20:34:34 <shachaf> heegan
20:34:39 <shachaf> teeheegan
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20:51:33 <kmc> hichaf
20:52:06 <kmc> how goes it?
20:52:30 * kmc is learning the moves for rotating the centers of a Rubik's cube
20:52:36 <ion> Who’s shichaf?
20:52:55 <ion> But the center cannot hold.
20:52:55 <shachaf> kmc: What moves?
20:53:44 <kmc> http://www.alchemistmatt.com/cube/rubikcenter.html
20:54:14 <shachaf> Oh.
20:54:21 <Bike> dance dance dance
20:54:22 <shachaf> Neat that you can do that.
20:54:29 <ion> https://plus.google.com/100013123247538791993/posts/2W2onvw3Ly5
20:54:33 <shachaf> mnoqy is a russian spy btw hth
20:54:43 <mnoqy> what
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20:55:04 <shachaf> wait sorry
20:55:10 <shachaf> mnoqy is not a russian spy
20:55:18 <mnoqy> ???????
20:55:22 <Bike> ion: lol
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21:01:32 <nooodl> wikipedia is telling me the subjonctif imparfait is rarely used in french but
21:01:53 <nooodl> what the heck are you supposed to write after "j'étais surpris que ..."?!
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21:08:13 <Koen_> hmmm
21:08:25 <kmc> ok i did it
21:09:01 <Koen_> j'étais surpris que tu aies été là ce soir
21:09:05 <Koen_> I think
21:09:39 <Koen_> so that would be subjonctif passé composé
21:09:40 <Koen_> or something
21:10:18 <Koen_> though I would rarely phrase a sentence like that, and would prefer "j'étais surpris de te voir là ce soir"
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21:12:45 <Koen_> kmc: if the cops ask me who did it, I'll refer them to the logs
21:13:44 <Koen_> ok "j'étais surpris que" is a very unusual way to start a sentence so all tenses sound weird in my head
21:14:55 <nooodl> hmm. how would you translate something like "i was surprised that she still knew me"
21:15:44 <nooodl> oh wait you mentioned the "j'étais surpris de" thing up there, oops
21:15:47 <olsner> extrapolating from the previous discussion, j'étais surpris que something something
21:15:49 <Bike> http://www.requestcomics.com/comic/306.html hmmmmmmm
21:15:58 <Koen_> present form would definitely be "je suis surpris que tu sois là" so with the imparfait... hmmm you want me to say "j'étais supris que tu fûsses là", right?
21:16:29 <Koen_> (took me some time to find the correct form for "fûsses")
21:16:39 <Koen_> ok that sounds correct
21:16:50 <Koen_> "j'étais surpris que tu aies été là" is probably not correct
21:17:43 <Koen_> nooodl: I would say instead "j'étais surpris d'apprendre qu'elle se souvenait encore de moi" ("I was surprised to learn she still remembered me")
21:18:26 <Koen_> but yeah it"s definitely unusual :)
21:18:45 <Koen_> you might find it in novels
21:19:04 <nooodl> it's like passé simple i guess
21:19:14 <Koen_> no passé simple is easy
21:19:26 <Koen_> and not so unusual when writing
21:19:36 <Koen_> (you would rarely use it in oral speech though)
21:19:51 <Koen_> buuuuuuut I'm really having trouble finding the correct tense for your sentence
21:20:08 <Koen_> j'étais surpris qu'elle se rappelle de moi is the first thing that comes to mind
21:20:19 <Koen_> and is probably what I would say when speaking
21:20:21 <nooodl> just subjonctif présent?
21:20:25 <Koen_> but it's most definitely wrong
21:20:48 <Koen_> "j'étais surpris qu'elle se rappelât de moi" is probably more correct
21:21:00 <nooodl> this is for an oral presentation thingy... maybe i should just not use the subjonctif at all
21:21:10 <Koen_> well if it's oral and you use that
21:21:22 <shachaf> What is a word for something that's either a source or a target?
21:21:29 <shachaf> Or either a domain or a codomain. Or something.
21:21:34 <nooodl> an object hth
21:21:37 <Koen_> hum
21:21:40 <kmc> operand
21:21:51 <Koen_> oh wait I thought you wanted the french word for that haha
21:21:58 <kmc> argument
21:22:02 <Koen_> space
21:22:15 <shachaf> nooodl: I want a better word than object for talking about categories.
21:22:21 <shachaf> Since objects aren't important but people think they are.
21:22:29 <Koen_> "categories"
21:22:39 <kmc> i call them "types" i guess types are important though??
21:22:53 <nooodl> a set hth
21:23:05 <shachaf> The point is that types aren't the main thing you're talking about. You're talking about functions.
21:23:23 <shachaf> Types are just there to tell you how to compose them.
21:24:16 <Bike> imo, use some obscure german term so nobody will remember it and just talk about morphisms instead.
21:24:35 <nooodl> i don't get what's wrong with object :/
21:25:08 <nooodl> isn't that literally The Thing in categories that's either a source or a target
21:25:13 <kmc> if they're objects then what are the methods??? checkmate mathematicians
21:25:13 <Bike> well, if you're like me and mindstuck in set theory land, sometimes you think about objects in category theory even though that's ninety kinds of pointles
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21:25:23 <Bike> and shachaf thinks this is the fault of "object" the term i guess?
21:25:46 <nooodl> wow i think about objects in categories :(
21:25:58 <zzo38> Objects are important if you want to know which morphisms can be composed!
21:26:30 <nooodl> i'm still nowhere in my CT adventures though
21:26:50 <nooodl> (btw: thanks for recommending barr & wells, shachaf)
21:27:03 <shachaf> I recommended Barr & Wells?
21:27:05 * copumpkin knows all about CT adventures
21:27:08 <shachaf> I've never read it.
21:27:11 <shachaf> I hear it's good, though.
21:27:20 <shachaf> Probably I quoted ddarius's recommendation.
21:27:28 <shachaf> yopumpkin
21:27:32 <shachaf> Did you read that one story?
21:28:01 <shachaf> For example, the "elements" of a monoid are the arrows, not the objects.
21:28:09 <shachaf> Arrows don't have to be particularly function-like.
21:28:20 <nooodl> <shachaf> Anyway Barr & Wells is free online.
21:28:20 <nooodl> <shachaf> I hear it's good.
21:28:30 <shachaf> Ah.
21:28:39 <shachaf> ddarius also recommended learning about category theory as a generalization of lattice theory or something like that.
21:29:02 <nooodl> yeah, that was actually my first little cat. theory-related "whoa" moment (the monoid thing)
21:29:44 <nooodl> how vague the terms "object", "arrow", and "compose" really are, in the definition of a category
21:29:44 <Sgeo> Hmm. Saturday's episode might have been leaked, tempted to go find and watch it
21:29:46 <shachaf> copumpkin: How do you talk about rank-n types categorically? hth
21:30:04 <shachaf> nooodl: I think the terms are actively misleading now.
21:30:06 <zzo38> Well, yes, it doesn't have to be a function, or of other thing like that, it depend on the category, what the morphisms and objects are meaning.
21:30:13 <shachaf> For anything except sets etc.
21:30:14 <copumpkin> your hth must mean something different from my hth
21:30:24 <shachaf> copumpkin: It does. hth
21:30:30 <Bike> this doesn't h at all
21:30:36 <shachaf> I'm just addicted to hth. :-( hth
21:30:40 <Bike> so
21:30:41 <nooodl> me too hth
21:30:48 <Bike> do you all read category theory blogs, are there category theory blogs
21:30:48 <nooodl> btw shachaf what is i_i :(
21:30:50 <Bike> besides the one i mean
21:30:55 <shachaf> nooodl: You mean I,I?
21:30:57 <copumpkin> shachaf: ah, yth
21:31:03 <nooodl> oops yes
21:31:10 <shachaf> It looks like an owl face to me.
21:31:30 <shachaf> Is nooodl Finnish? I thought nooodl was Finnish.
21:31:35 <nooodl> i'm belgian hth
21:32:01 <nooodl> belgium is the new hexham (population: me, anothertest)
21:32:20 <copumpkin> shachaf: probably something involving (di)natural transformations, I'd guess
21:32:27 <shachaf> I guess I just assume people on IRC are Finnish, hth
21:32:46 <shachaf> copumpkin: I mean, you have a category-ish thing of Haskell functions.
21:32:49 <nooodl> Bike: where do you live again (i'm awful)
21:33:04 <shachaf> But they're all monomorphic, and you handle the polymorphism at another level, or something.
21:33:06 <Bike> how is that relevant
21:33:09 <shachaf> But that doesn't work with rank-2 types.
21:33:13 <zzo38> You have a Rank-N category?
21:33:19 <copumpkin> well that's what I mean by natural transformations
21:33:27 <nooodl> i vaguely seem to recall that you're french
21:33:28 <shachaf> OK.
21:33:37 <nooodl> which is belgian, fsvo belgian, fsvo french
21:33:37 <Bike> oh, no i'm not that
21:33:38 <shachaf> I guess it's a complicated category, then.
21:33:46 <shachaf> `? Bike
21:33:49 <HackEgo> Bike is from Luxembourg.
21:33:57 <copumpkin> runST :: (forall s. () -> ST s a) -> a
21:34:01 <nooodl> wow that's belgium sorry
21:34:16 <copumpkin> you can phrase that forall s. thing as an NT
21:34:26 <copumpkin> with constant functor for first half and flip of ST for second half
21:35:16 <shachaf> Ah.
21:35:20 <nooodl> hmm. would it be better to think of "objects" and "arrows" as "types" and "composable, typed values" respectively?
21:35:38 <copumpkin> shachaf: still not sure how it'd work though, need to think harar
21:35:53 <shachaf> nooodl: I think that's a better intuition.
21:36:22 <shachaf> For a poset category, I guess an arrow is a proof of ≤ or something.
21:36:35 <nooodl> i still have no idea what posets are
21:36:46 <copumpkin> partially ordered set
21:36:49 <shachaf> A poset is a set with a partial ordering.
21:37:00 <copumpkin> you really just need a preorder though, which has even less structure
21:37:18 <copumpkin> nooodl: take a total order as an example: natural numbers with <=
21:37:19 <zzo38> Not really a proof I suppose, but a partial ordering will make a thin category (they follow the same laws), where there is a morphism if A is less than or equal to B.
21:37:32 <zzo38> And the objects of the category are the elements of the set.
21:38:33 <copumpkin> for another cute category, take obejcts = natural numbers, morphisms from n -> m = m x n (real) matrices
21:38:51 <copumpkin> and then figure out what you can find in that category
21:38:52 <shachaf> Types again!
21:39:30 <Bike> are matrices types
21:39:45 <FreeFull> I don't honestly know what an object would be in general
21:39:53 <Bike> an object
21:39:55 <FreeFull> Or at least, not in Haskell
21:40:03 <nooodl> a type?
21:40:05 <shachaf> copumpkin: Is composition multiplication?
21:40:06 <Bike> why do things have to be things. things can just be themselves imo. go with the flow
21:40:16 <copumpkin> shachaf: yep
21:40:18 <shachaf> Makes sense.
21:40:47 <shachaf> And square matrices of any particular size are a monoid.
21:41:15 <copumpkin> a monoid object? :P first figure out if the category is monoidal
21:41:53 <copumpkin> how about simple things like initial/terminal/product/coproduct
21:42:00 <shachaf> I just mean an object and all its endoarrows.
21:42:14 <copumpkin> ah, ok
21:42:14 <shachaf> That's boring enough to not be worth mentioning.
21:42:46 <shachaf> zzo38: I choose to say that the arrow : A -> B in the poset category is a proof that A ≤ B
21:42:54 <shachaf> And then I identify all proofs.
21:43:32 <shachaf> Anyway, let's see.
21:47:03 <zzo38> Matrix multiplication does make a category; the morphisms are the matrix and the objects identify the size of the matrix (natural numbers), and zero is the initial and the final object; ... I think so, at least ...
21:47:20 <shachaf> I think so too.
21:49:12 <zzo38> So, really, category theory does a lot of things.
21:49:33 <shachaf> copumpkin: That's a good category.
21:49:44 <copumpkin> shachaf: wait until you figure out (co)products!
21:50:58 <FreeFull> coshachaf
21:51:03 <shachaf> copumpkin: Hmm, let's see.
22:00:40 <kmc> http://gitorious.org/nethack-tas-tools/mainline/blobs/master/turnbyturn.txt nethack TAS
22:01:29 <nooodl> ais523: you're famous!
22:01:42 <ais523> nooodl: in what way this time?
22:02:01 <kmc> oh that's YOUR nethack TAS
22:02:17 <Bike> i liked the video of that
22:02:21 <ais523> yeah
22:02:24 <ais523> me and dwangoAC
22:03:53 <Bike> man nethack's mechanics are kind of ridiculous aren't they
22:04:04 <nooodl> shachaf: gee hurry up and answer copumpkin's question for me please
22:04:08 <nooodl> it's exciting
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22:45:02 <kmc> ion: wow, that GNOME thing
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23:12:49 <Phantom_Hoover> so wait, what are products in the matrix category
23:13:21 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: it's an exercise
23:13:58 <shachaf> hth
23:14:48 <Phantom_Hoover> so uh
23:15:29 <shachaf> Do all (co)products exist?
23:15:42 <shachaf> figure it out
23:17:58 <shachaf> If N and M are natural numbers, their product is a natural number P and two matrices s : PxN and t : PxM, such that for any natural number Y and matrices a : YxN and b : YxM, there exists a unique u : YxP such that us = a and ut = b
23:18:29 <Phantom_Hoover> i think you probably have those multiplications the wrong way round
23:18:50 <shachaf> Um, probably.
23:19:06 <shachaf> Er, do I?
23:19:18 <Phantom_Hoover> is it rows x columns
23:19:25 <Phantom_Hoover> yes
23:19:26 <shachaf> If u : AxB and v : BxC, which way do you multiply?
23:19:35 <Phantom_Hoover> so er... to multiply two matrices...
23:19:56 <Phantom_Hoover> the left has to have the same number of columns as the right has rows
23:19:57 <Bike> here i was thinking you couldn't make tensor multiplication sillier
23:20:31 <Phantom_Hoover> so (mxn) * (nxp) = (mxp)
23:20:40 <shachaf> That's what I wrote.
23:20:55 <shachaf> u : YxP, s : PxN, up = a : YxN
23:21:21 <Phantom_Hoover> Y -> P is represented by PxY here
23:21:23 <Phantom_Hoover> i think
23:21:42 <shachaf> Oh.
23:21:45 <shachaf> Right.
23:22:07 <shachaf> Fine, turn it around.
23:23:25 <zzo38> Is it a dagger category?
23:26:23 <shachaf> Does the way you have the products actually matter?
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23:35:13 <Phantom_Hoover> 23:26:23: <shachaf> Does the way you have the products actually matter?
23:35:36 <Phantom_Hoover> no, it's one of those things where multiplication is basically commutative except for some niggly little details
23:36:35 <Phantom_Hoover> i wonder if it's actually just m times n
23:36:44 <shachaf> That doesn't sound right.
23:36:59 <Phantom_Hoover> fuck it, i'm doing this the differential equations way
23:37:06 <shachaf> The empty product should be the terminal object, which I think is 0.
23:37:12 <shachaf> What's the differential equations way?
23:37:53 <Phantom_Hoover> guess random shit and see if it works
23:38:01 * Bike salutes
23:38:06 <Phantom_Hoover> write exams based on one's ability to do this
23:38:33 <zzo38> I think the zero is both initial and final objects in this category.
23:38:34 -!- variable has changed nick to constant.
23:38:56 <Phantom_Hoover> can you even have an mx0 matrix
23:39:21 <Phantom_Hoover> i guess as some kind of abstract matrix?
23:39:34 <zzo38> I would think you can, since I do not know why you don't.
23:39:38 -!- sivoais has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
23:39:39 <Phantom_Hoover> well
23:39:43 <shachaf> thanks zzo38
23:39:44 <Phantom_Hoover> no, it makes no sense
23:39:46 <shachaf> thzo38
23:39:59 <shachaf> Why does it make no sense?
23:40:04 <Phantom_Hoover> consider: what do you get when you multiply an mx0 and an 0xn matrix
23:40:22 <Phantom_Hoover> the result must be an mxn matrix, yet where are you getting all those entries
23:40:32 <shachaf> So?
23:40:40 <Phantom_Hoover> unless, hmm
23:40:41 <zzo38> There are none; it will be zero isn't it?
23:40:41 -!- sivoais has joined.
23:40:43 <shachaf> What do you get when you compose an a -> Void function and a Void -> b function?
23:40:44 -!- sivoais has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:40:57 <Bike> "uh this is category theory, who cares about that kind of sense"
23:41:06 <Phantom_Hoover> weeelll...
23:41:23 <Phantom_Hoover> isn't an a -> Void function Weird
23:41:30 -!- sivoais has joined.
23:41:32 <shachaf> It's weird in that there aren't any.
23:41:42 <Phantom_Hoover> exactly (exactly?)
23:41:49 <Bike> exactly!
23:41:58 <shachaf> So it sounds like there wouldn't be an mx0 matrix either?
23:42:21 <shachaf> Or maybe not. Who, like, knows, man?
23:42:59 <Phantom_Hoover> maybe it's m+n
23:43:13 <Phantom_Hoover> hmm
23:43:13 <shachaf> Sgeotm
23:43:47 <Phantom_Hoover> i think it might be m+n
23:43:47 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, I watched an episode of Farscape last night
23:43:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, good man
23:43:56 <Phantom_Hoover> watch another now
23:44:02 <Sgeo> I need to eat
23:44:07 <Phantom_Hoover> watch while eating
23:44:13 <Phantom_Hoover> the great new way to watch
23:44:21 <Sgeo> Also, would you rather me watch Farscape or finish DS9?
23:44:25 <Phantom_Hoover> anyway shh i'm abstract nonsense
23:46:20 <Phantom_Hoover> let pi_1 = the m-by-m+n matrix with the diagonal filled in with 1s
23:46:37 <Phantom_Hoover> let pi_2 = the n-by-m+n matrix with the diagonal filled in with 1s
23:47:25 <Phantom_Hoover> now, if we have y and f1,f2 as m-by-y and n-by-y matrices...
23:47:28 <Bike> you could just say "the whatever by whatever identity matrix"
23:47:30 <shachaf> What's a diagonal of an nxm matrix?
23:47:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Bike, that's not the identity matrix
23:47:46 <Phantom_Hoover> it's the identity matrix with padding at the bottom or right
23:47:53 <Bike> oh. silly.
23:49:01 <Phantom_Hoover> now we want f as an m+n-by-y matrix
23:49:11 <Phantom_Hoover> so if we stick f1 on top of f2...
23:50:14 <Phantom_Hoover> nope wait that's not going to work
23:53:10 <Phantom_Hoover> copumpkin, oh just tell us already
23:53:18 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: No!
23:53:19 <zzo38> It is what I thought it was: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matrix_(mathematics)#Empty_matrices
23:54:54 <Phantom_Hoover> OK so keeping the "f1 on top of f2" part
23:55:01 <Bike> well, that explains where you get the elements from
23:56:00 <shachaf> Oh.
23:56:30 <shachaf> So there's one 3x0 matrix and one 0x3 matrix, and their product is [[0 0 0] [0 0 0] [0 0 0]]?
23:56:57 <Phantom_Hoover> OK, right
23:57:00 <Phantom_Hoover> yeah, it's m+n
23:57:02 <zzo38> Yes, I think so. That is what I thought it was, and I think that is what Wikipedia means too.
23:57:08 <Phantom_Hoover> my earlier values for pi1 and pi2 were wrong
23:57:50 <Phantom_Hoover> pi1 is an m-by-m+n matrix with the diagonal starting in the top-left cell filled with 1s
23:58:12 <Phantom_Hoover> pi2 is an n-by-m+n matrix with the diagonal starting in the top cell of the nth column filled with 1s
23:58:41 <Phantom_Hoover> did you know: you can exponentiate by matrices
23:59:19 <Bike> it doesn't say there must be only one of each, shachaf
23:59:44 <Phantom_Hoover> they're hardly going to be different now are they
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