←2013-06-12 2013-06-13 2013-06-14→ ↑2013 ↑all
00:05:22 <oerjan> <Bike> anyway apparently there are crypto startups i didn't know this <-- presumably they're good at hiding?
00:05:49 <Bike> deep
00:11:16 <kmc> lool
00:11:20 <kmc> Bike: example?
00:11:30 <Bike> of what
00:11:35 <Bike> crypto startups/
00:13:41 <Bike> https://crypto.cat/
00:15:06 <Bike> came up in http://www.theverge.com/2013/6/12/4422480/is-prism-good-news-for-cryptographers
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00:20:52 <SgeoBot> `list
00:20:53 <HackEgo> ais523 atriq Bike boily cuttlefish elliott fgrep Fiora fungot HackEgo metasepia monqy Ngevd nortti oklopol Phantom_Hoover pikhq quintopia Sgeo SgeoBot SUPREME_BUTT_SUI Taneb
00:20:55 <SgeoBot> oops
00:20:57 <SgeoBot> `slist
00:20:58 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
00:20:59 <SgeoBot> Supposedly.
00:21:21 <SgeoBot> At least, the notifier I made in another room went off...
00:21:21 <ais523> hey, how did I end up in the `list?
00:21:32 <ais523> not that I mind, but I'm pretty sure I didn't trigger it intentionally
00:21:35 <ais523> `cat bin/list
00:21:36 <HackEgo> ​#!/bin/sh \ grep '^..:..:..: <[^>]*> `list' /var/irclogs/_esoteric/201[3-9]-??-??.txt | sed 's/^.*<//;s/>.*//;s/_*$//' | sort -u | tr '\n' ' '
00:21:42 <Bike> `pastelogs ais523.*`list
00:21:44 <ais523> ah right, it's historical
00:21:57 <ais523> I triggered an early in-testing version of the `list
00:21:58 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.17695
00:22:15 <Bike> the proto-list
00:22:23 <oerjan> what happens in `list, stays in `list
00:22:50 <ais523> anyway, now SgeoBot has triggered the `list, it will be there eternally
00:23:00 <ais523> btw, I liked the old race condition version
00:23:06 <ais523> because it was harder to figure out, and trollier
00:23:06 <kmc> sgeo is a bot now?
00:23:18 <shachaf> aren't we all
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00:23:33 <ais523> the new version fits in better with the idea behind it, at least
00:24:02 <SgeoBot> <Ktalaki> the latest pages hasn't been updated yet. just the most recent page, with an arrow
00:24:09 <shachaf> kmc: i bought _The Power Broker_
00:24:09 <SgeoBot> kmc, yes, Bike uncovered me in #bike
00:24:15 <Bike> hey what's the way to get the file size of a directory recursively on linux
00:24:23 <Bike> i can never remember it and whether it involves du
00:24:31 <ion> What does the file size of a directory mean?
00:24:32 <shachaf> might be some time before i start/finish reading it, though
00:24:34 <ais523> it's du with a couple of options
00:24:36 <SgeoBot> Go to last page, click link from there
00:24:41 <SgeoBot> For Homestuck update
00:24:56 <kmc> i usually do du -hs dirname
00:25:00 <ais523> du -bcs dirname
00:25:05 <Bike> that works
00:25:25 <ais523> you also might want -l if you want to count each copy of a hard link, rather than the single file that's linked
00:25:33 <ais523> which depends on what you're trying to do
00:25:40 <shachaf> it's spelled du -sh you unpatriotic scum of the earth
00:25:48 <Bike> thanks
00:25:48 <shachaf> i bet you write rm -fr too
00:25:49 <ais523> shachaf: if you use -h rather than -b, then it counts the disk space used
00:25:52 <ais523> not the size of all the files in it
00:25:52 <ion> -sh is not even in alphabetical order.
00:26:05 <ais523> so very small files will be counted as more than the number of bytes in them
00:26:08 <ais523> this is not what Bike asked for
00:27:10 <oerjan> * kmc hands out cyanide pills <-- and this is how humanity will finally evolve the ability not to click ominous links hth
00:27:49 <ais523> oerjan: and use a browser that can't be XSSed attacked through plain text files?
00:28:49 <oerjan> now that's going a bit far.
00:29:13 <coppro> huh, I wasn't expecting an update
00:29:15 <coppro> thank you SgeoBot
00:29:36 <coppro> I suppose it has technically been months
00:31:03 <Bike> years
00:31:05 <Bike> over .001 years!!
00:31:24 <Bike> more importantly there are jerkcityhd posts http://24.media.tumblr.com/aef6f8b854fb820eb634748be7289463/tumblr_mo57efs8CY1snfhwio1_1280.png
00:31:30 <kmc> moving to SF feels vaguely self-destructive given how annoyed I am by web/mobile app startup culture
00:31:36 <kmc> but i can't really escape it by being physically far away, either
00:31:42 <kmc> so i might as well be where my friends are
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00:32:31 <Bike> look at it this way: there's good weed
00:33:09 <Bike> http://jerkcityhd.tumblr.com/image/51435557806 and good dicks
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00:33:42 <kmc> haha
00:33:47 <kmc> i should get a shower curtain that looks like macsbug
00:34:02 <Fiora> caliborn's narration is amazing
00:34:27 <coppro> it truly is
00:34:58 <Bike> boogle vacantly
00:35:23 <Bike> i was wondering about the typo route/root but i guess it was intentional or at least fits
00:35:27 <Bike> boogle down
00:36:46 <coppro> yeah that one's pretty good
00:59:00 <coppro> oh, there we go, feed updated
00:59:11 <elliott> kmc: i was going to ask if you heard about the private silly valley buses
00:59:17 <elliott> but i think i heard about them from your twitter SO
00:59:25 <elliott> was it silly valley, i think it was
01:00:40 <elliott> Bike: spigot is "super kawaii" in that first one, as they say
01:00:57 <Bike> yes that is what they say
01:01:25 <elliott> I Know the People
01:07:14 <SgeoBot> Did you try to ==> out of the flash early?
01:07:16 <SgeoBot> You should
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01:41:49 <coppro> yeah it's pretty good
02:00:27 <kmc> elliott: which? the company shuttles run by Google etc, or the private subscription bus lines in SF?
02:00:50 <kmc> imo there's nothing wrong with the rich paying for luxury public transit, if the basic govt public transit is adequate
02:00:53 <kmc> but it isn't really
02:01:04 <kmc> and the city is too incompetent to e.g. tax the luxury services and fund the public ones
02:01:07 <elliott> kmc: i meant the company ones yeah
02:01:31 <kmc> america desperately needs health care reform to reduce the amount of useless snail mail i receive
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02:08:22 <oerjan> @bf ++++++++[->++++++++<]>.
02:08:22 <lambdabot> @
02:10:11 <oerjan> @bf ,[.,]!Does this work?
02:10:11 <lambdabot> Done.
02:10:25 <oerjan> 'parently not.
02:15:33 <pikhq> @bf ,[.,]!++++++++++.
02:15:33 <lambdabot> Done.
02:19:35 <elliott> kmc: btw am planning to do god's work re: haskell FAQ
02:21:00 <SgeoBot> "Quotes of the Week
02:21:00 <SgeoBot> shachaf: getLine :: IO String contains a String in the same way /bin/ls contains a list of files."
02:21:09 <SgeoBot> That is not a quote that first occurred within the past week
02:23:45 <kmc> elliott: good (what though)
02:24:02 <kmc> strings /bin/ls | grep ^/
02:26:37 <elliott> kmc: well, you know @faq...
02:26:55 <Bike> @faq
02:26:55 <lambdabot> The answer is: Yes! Haskell can do that.
02:27:00 <Bike> lol great
02:27:17 <Koen_> @bf input!,[.,]
02:27:17 <lambdabot> Done.
02:27:18 <SgeoBot> @faq Can Haskell fix @faq without outside intervention?
02:27:18 <lambdabot> The answer is: Yes! Haskell can do that.
02:27:37 <elliott> Bike: http://sprunge.us/WUOh
02:27:51 <Bike> my god.
02:27:58 <Bike> are they serious?
02:28:05 <Bike> well some of those obviously aren't
02:28:17 <Bike> this is terrible
02:28:43 <Bike> "can I use HASKELL to solve problem from ARTIFICAL INTELIGENCE, like DEPTH TREE SEARCH ,or A*, its hardest than same algorithn in C++ with C++ Standart Library data structures, like FIFO/LIFO/LISTs etc. ?" snort
02:28:57 <elliott> Bike: well you see the thing is someone asks a question in #haskell
02:29:06 <Bike> yeah i know how it goes
02:29:06 <elliott> and then no matter what it is if it involves asking whether you can do something, potentially in haskell
02:29:11 <elliott> you put @faq in front of it
02:29:15 <elliott> and you're a master of comedy
02:29:17 <Bike> oh so it's
02:29:19 <Bike> a "meme"
02:29:24 <elliott> well
02:29:37 <elliott> it was originally because people would ask things like "can haskell do [incredibly basic thing that any real language can do]"
02:29:44 <Bike> yeah i'm sure
02:29:48 <elliott> but now it's just... kind of annoying
02:29:48 <Bike> "does haskell have i/o"
02:29:50 <Bike> i assume you're going to have @faq link to kmc's first epistle to the nerds
02:29:53 <elliott> right
02:29:57 <elliott> that's the idea
02:30:12 <Bike> and probably you'll get called a nazi for killing the joke or whatever
02:30:12 <elliott> so now people will try to mock questions and inadvertantly link something that might even answer them!!!
02:30:15 <elliott> yes
02:30:21 <elliott> i love ruining things, goddamn
02:30:40 <SgeoBot> What's this epistle?
02:30:46 <elliott> @where faq
02:30:46 <lambdabot> http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/FAQ
02:32:22 <SgeoBot> Oh. From what you called it, I thought it was going to be some ... thingy
02:32:31 <Bike> Thingy?
02:32:39 <Bike> "epistle" is just oldspeak for "letter".
02:33:36 <SgeoBot> Some generic thoughts on geekiness or somethign
02:34:10 <Bike> that's kmc's First Testament
02:36:20 <kmc> you ever shred so much stuff that the shredder overheats?
02:36:26 <Bike> no
02:36:36 <kmc> well i have, hth
02:36:39 <kmc> (just now)
02:36:40 <Bike> oh no
02:36:42 <kmc> (but also before)
02:36:42 <Bike> did you die
02:36:44 <kmc> no
02:36:47 <kmc> still alive
02:36:47 <elliott> rip kmc
02:36:51 <shachaf> rip
02:36:52 <elliott> i'll come to your funeral
02:37:10 <kmc> "we will bury you" -- shachaf
02:38:19 <shachaf> "we will bury them" -- soviet rhino heavy tank in red alert 2, being ordered to attack
02:38:51 <Bike> are you a tank y/n
02:39:16 <shachaf> hey remember red alert 2
02:39:23 <shachaf> that was a good computer game
02:40:02 <Bike> it was
02:40:06 <elliott> ./win goto 39
02:40:08 <elliott> oops
02:40:36 <shachaf> did you know you can just say /win 39
02:40:37 <shachaf> hth
02:40:45 <elliott> yes
02:40:46 <elliott> but I forget
02:40:57 <shachaf> also you can press alt then press the 39 key
02:41:01 <kmc> shachaf.win++
02:41:08 <shachaf> kmc: huh
02:41:18 <shachaf> I was telling elliott about an irssi feature...
02:41:27 <kmc> oh elliott.win++
02:41:35 <shachaf> shachaf.win--
02:41:47 <kmc> the MIT UAV club flew their UAV into the river...
02:41:52 <kmc> Controlled Flight Into Terrain
02:42:10 <oerjan> uncontrollable air vehicle
02:42:48 <Fiora> I love the phrase "controlled flight into terrain"
02:43:08 <shachaf> TERRAAAAAIN
02:43:26 <shachaf> works better in #cslounge-trains
02:43:35 <shachaf> if you like trains you should join that channel hth
02:44:49 <SgeoBot> http://souleyedigitalmusic.bandcamp.com/album/ppppppowerup
02:45:02 <kmc> that's the soundtrack to VVVVVV
02:45:03 <kmc> it's good
02:45:12 <shachaf> let me guess, drums
02:45:12 <kmc> the game as well
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02:45:29 <kmc> not as such, but possibly an 8bit synth approximation thereof
02:45:32 <Bike> the game got a bit memorizey
02:45:38 <shachaf> the game is about dying isn't it
02:45:40 <SgeoBot> kmc, no, it's remixed versions of the soundtrack to VVVVVV
02:45:42 <kmc> mostly
02:45:44 <kmc> SgeoBot: oh
02:46:08 <SgeoBot> But the actual soundtrack is awesome too
02:46:32 <shachaf> should i go to the "they might be giants performance" on friday in sf
02:47:48 <SgeoBot> shachaf, you should probably go listen to PPPPPP first
02:48:55 <SgeoBot> I love soundtracks.
02:49:31 <Bike> Original Soundtracks 1 is the best soundtrack hth
02:50:59 <elliott> Bike: i was just thinking about that album the other day wtf (i haven't even heard it)
02:51:43 <shachaf> hey i think i have that sound track as part of humble blah blah don't i
02:52:34 <SgeoBot> I know VVVVVV itself was in a Humble Bundle
02:53:28 <kmc> third
02:53:48 <Bike> elliott: have you seen Ghost in the Shell
02:53:50 <kmc> Bike: i don't recall memorization in that game
02:54:01 <kmc> it was mostly precise timing for jumps
02:54:11 <elliott> Bike: nope
02:54:16 <kmc> i normally hate jumping puzzles but VVVVVV did a really good job eliminating the delay before you can try again
02:54:29 <shachaf> kmc: braid did the best job of that
02:54:38 <kmc> that's really what I hate, 30 seconds of tedious walking around until you can get to the jump and fail again
02:54:38 <Fiora> I remember seeing a bit of a let's play linked on youtube where someone spent like 30+ minutes on one 10 second segment
02:54:41 <kmc> shachaf: true
02:54:46 <kmc> braid is a good game also
02:54:51 <Fiora> braid <3
02:54:58 <Bike> Fiora: the joke is, i know exactly which segment
02:55:01 <shachaf> imo seeing the braid mechanic not as a central puzzle mechanic but just a convenient continuous undo thing would be nice
02:55:03 <Bike> kmc: it got pretty rote for me
02:55:04 <Fiora> Bike: "doing things the hard way"?
02:55:09 <Bike> Fiora: yep
02:55:11 <Fiora> shachaf: prince of persia
02:55:18 <Fiora> Sorta
02:55:27 <Bike> i forget if i ever actually got that one
02:55:33 <SgeoBot> What about veni vedi veci... oh same thing I guess
02:55:43 <shachaf> Fiora: I've only played one Prince of Persia game. It was a long time ago. It didn't have that.
02:55:52 <shachaf> But I hear there's more than one game so maybe others do.
02:55:54 <Fiora> in prince of persia when you fell or something it let you rewind I think?
02:55:58 <Fiora> like that was one of the things it did
02:56:03 <elliott> i like how i have 2834923984234 humble bundles
02:56:05 <elliott> and have played like 3 of the games
02:56:14 <Bike> conspicuous consumption hth
02:56:40 <shachaf> the one i played looked a lot like http://toucharcade.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/130503.jpeg
02:56:47 <shachaf> thx google images
02:56:50 <Fiora> ... oh
02:56:53 <Fiora> I was thinking Sands of Time
02:57:04 <shachaf> it was on a cd of 100 shareware games
02:57:08 <shachaf> all i had was the demo
02:57:21 <Bike> maybe you should play a Prince of Persia game tha'ts less bad.
02:57:21 <shachaf> man i sure loved that cd
02:57:28 <shachaf> it had all these games!!
02:57:37 <shachaf> like jill of the jungle. who remembers jill of the jungle. i do
02:57:38 <Bike> elliott: anyway the point is, listen to "One Minute Warning"
02:58:05 <Bike> i like the braid guy's essays more than his games.
02:58:08 <elliott> Bike: i'll need a one minute warning first 8) :D : D :D: D :LD:L:LD: L:D :K <3k0 i3-0 it0-hroph;lg ,bv.
02:58:12 <elliott> zjksdxzlsekhfa5w87veyisudgkxclx\'
02:58:13 <elliott> c]|Z:"Z?[
02:58:16 <Fiora> has he done anything since braid?
02:58:35 <Bike> i know he was planning something
02:58:40 <Bike> but who knows with these artsy types
02:58:43 <Fiora> I know he's doing a next-gen console thing on PS4
02:58:57 <Bike> i think i mostly liked braid for the art because i like the artist
02:58:59 <shachaf> SgeoBot: this was nice until the drum-alikes started :'(
02:59:11 <Fiora> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Witness_(2013_video_game)
02:59:13 <Bike> maybe i'm just too fly-like to do puzzley games
02:59:31 <SgeoBot> shachaf, PPPPPP or the remix?
02:59:32 <Fiora> braid was definitely one of those games where like, I could beat my head for 30 minutes on a puzzle
02:59:36 <Fiora> and then look up the answer on youtubue
02:59:38 <SgeoBot> Because I cannot vouch for the quality of the remixes
02:59:40 <Fiora> and in retrospect wow that was so obvious
02:59:41 <shachaf> 2013 more like 20never
02:59:44 <SgeoBot> Just for the quality of PPPPPP
02:59:44 <shachaf> wait 2013 isn't over yet
02:59:47 <shachaf> i mixed it up with 2012
03:00:16 <shachaf> SgeoBot: I listened to whatever you linked in here.
03:00:20 <Bike> «Blow says he started to "check out" from his parents as early as elementary school. His mother was an ex-nun who constantly reminded her son about the imminent coming of Jesus and would later disown Blow's older sister for coming out as a lesbian in the mid-80s. Blow's father worked all day as a defense contractor and would come home to be alone in his den, where children were not allowed.» wow
03:00:21 <shachaf> http://souleyedigitalmusic.bandcamp.com/album/ppppppowerup
03:00:52 <SgeoBot> shachaf, ok then. This is the original: http://souleyedigitalmusic.bandcamp.com/album/pppppp-the-vvvvvv-soundtrack
03:01:16 <elliott> Bike: nice
03:01:21 <elliott> game developers.
03:01:40 <Bike> i didn't even know "ex-nun" was a thing you could be
03:01:41 <shachaf> SgeoBot: Still has drumalikes. :-(
03:01:56 <Koen_> did http://www.win.tue.nl/cs/fm/engels/frc/index.html just stop existing all of a sudden :(
03:02:06 <SgeoBot> Koen_, there's an archive
03:02:15 <Bike> is that about engels
03:02:20 <SgeoBot> Tada: http://sir-toby.com/nomic-archives/frc/
03:02:28 <Koen_> thank you mister bot
03:02:40 <Bike> dammit it's some nerd shit isn't it
03:02:44 <elliott> Bike: this is good i should listen to the album (i make a point of hating U2 so this is not easy to admit)
03:03:05 <SgeoBot> Bike, it branched off a game of nomic
03:03:34 <shachaf> SgeoBot: i had to turn it off because it felt like it was beating my brain in until i would die
03:03:34 <Bike> elliott: it's ok i hate them too. Eno also worked on it though and I don't hate him.
03:03:55 <Bike> good rationalization, imo
03:04:36 <elliott> eno also worked with coldplay
03:04:39 <elliott> "im just sayin"
03:04:57 <Bike> i kinda like coldplay "sorry"
03:05:18 <shachaf> i don't know what coldplay is "sorry"
03:05:27 <Bike> a band with drums
03:05:32 <shachaf> i knew it
03:05:44 <shachaf> it's not paranoia when they're really out to get you hth
03:05:44 <Bike> you just said you didn't!
03:05:54 <elliott> shachaf: btw prior warning the they might be giants performance will involve drums hth
03:06:06 <SgeoBot> shachaf, are you the master?
03:06:11 <shachaf> elliott: sometimes they don't......sometimes they do i don't know
03:06:20 <shachaf> my sister is going today in seattle
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04:20:31 <kmc> shredding done, now using the shredder as a footrest
04:21:35 <kmc> coldplay is mediocre but for the most part not actively offensive
04:21:43 <shachaf> what did you shred
04:21:46 <kmc> papers
04:21:54 <shachaf> oh
04:21:59 <shachaf> good shredding material
04:22:01 <oerjan> don't get your feet in the shredder hth
04:22:12 <Bike> "Al-Yafi was a well-known and prolific contributor to top-tier Al-Qaida forums with over 30,000 postings."
04:22:17 <shachaf> I,I mediocre jelly
04:22:30 <kmc> btw the start-up sound of the OLPC XO-1 is the first four notes of "Beautiful Day" by U2
04:22:33 <kmc> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TH7GOupMDrU
04:22:47 <kmc> it's hard to tell with the internal speaker because it picks out weird harmonics
04:22:56 <kmc> but it's super obvious if you plug in headphones
04:23:39 <SgeoBot> Someone just offered to pay my admission fee to the upcoming Rebol conference if I came
04:23:56 <Bike> do you have to fly
04:24:05 <kmc> foot status: unshredded
04:24:05 <shachaf> > hi (hi 5 (+) 3) (*) (hi 4 (+) 4) -- infix without infix!
04:24:08 <lambdabot> 64
04:24:26 <kmc> let hi x f y = f x y -- ?
04:24:28 <elliott> that's not evry infix
04:24:30 <elliott> *very
04:24:31 <shachaf> hi = flip flip
04:24:35 <SgeoBot> Bike, it's in a different country...
04:24:35 <elliott> you don't even get the associativityi ejrirtproperty
04:24:37 <kmc> :t flip flip
04:24:37 <lambdabot> b -> (a -> b -> c) -> a -> c
04:24:40 <shachaf> (So yes.)
04:24:41 <kmc> so, yes.
04:24:42 <Bike> is it a good country
04:24:44 <kmc> efb
04:24:51 <kmc> pop pop
04:24:55 <shachaf> kmc: i'm going to need a twitter account for your foot status asap plz thx hth
04:24:58 <kmc> elliott: did you have a stroke
04:24:59 <Bike> pop pop watching motherfuckers drop
04:25:07 <kmc> @miuaf_foot_ebooks
04:25:19 <elliott> kmc: yes
04:25:29 <elliott> kmc: i'm just not built for this world and its complete sentences
04:25:30 <kmc> elliott: might want to get that cehcked out
04:25:36 <kmc> get some of that NHS
04:25:44 <shachaf> would follow
04:25:51 <kmc> +5, Troll
04:26:00 <shachaf> still waiting for zzo38_ebooks
04:26:26 <elliott> main is usually a foot
04:26:41 <Bike> ok you all need to help me out here
04:26:54 <Bike> i need to understand the sentence: "Al-Jaza'iri was a jihadi web forum users who was well known and well-respected in the online extremist community."
04:27:02 <Bike> what is a jihadist forum like. give me ideas
04:27:12 <Bike> how can one be respected on an internet it doesn't make sense
04:27:24 <Fiora> I respect you
04:27:26 <Fiora> you're respected
04:27:37 <elliott> ergo Bike is a jihadist
04:27:43 <Bike> oh
04:28:04 <elliott> gonna have to come to terms with that Bike
04:28:14 <Bike> death to the west?
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04:28:18 <Bike> shit i'll have to grow a beard
04:28:21 <Bike> that's gonna suck
04:28:23 <kmc> i'm amused because obviously the jihadi web forums will have the same stupid web forum drama as every other web forum
04:28:29 <kmc> and i'm just amused thinking about this
04:28:34 <Fiora> you're friends with a woman, I don't think they allow that
04:28:56 <Bike> that's true, a lot of them are engineering students.
04:29:13 <Bike> kmc: "itt: infidels defending their terrible alcohol decisions"
04:29:17 <shachaf> why would you engineer a student
04:29:23 <elliott> kmc: arguments over how large the burning america flag image signatures should be allowed to be
04:29:33 <elliott> p. sure this is exactly what jihadi web forums must be like
04:29:51 <Bike> i just got back from the tunisian revolt AmA #yolo
04:30:38 <Bike> actually yeah now that you mention it none of the listed dead are women
04:30:43 <Bike> al-nusra needs to get its act together imo
04:30:52 <elliott> jihadi forum where they have some nutter going on about how 9/11 was an inside job but the angle is mostly that it's really disappointing that al qaida couldn't pull it off themselves
04:31:13 <elliott> i'm definitely 100% terrorism expert, trust me
04:31:30 <Bike> the people who wrote this report i'm reading presumably read these forums regularly
04:31:33 <Bike> i wonder if i can like, ask
04:31:39 <Bike> "jihadist 4chan report please"
04:33:05 <elliott> yo Bike why am i not asleep yet; checkmate
04:33:24 <kmc> http://erratasec.blogspot.com/2013/06/upcoming-revelations-speculations.html am i allowed to be annoyed at an article for being baseless speculation when it has 'speculation' in the title
04:33:41 <Bike> elliott: you're a fucking heathen hth
04:33:56 <Bike> kmc: haha this is bad
04:35:34 <elliott> Microsoft bought Skype for $8 billion dollars. It doesn't seem to make sense. Now that we see Skype and Microsoft prominently mentioned in the PRISM documents, we may find out that this entire thing was a plot by the NSA.
04:35:59 <elliott> "nsa made microsoft buy skype" best conspiracy theory
04:36:36 <kmc> Four billion wordwide population - all living - have a Computer God Containment Policy Brain Bank Brain, a real brain, in the Brain Bank Cities on the far side of the moon we never see.
04:36:59 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has changed nick to Nisstyre.
04:37:01 <Bike> http://jihadology.net/2010/10/20/an%E1%B9%A3ar-al-mujahidin-arabic-forum-adds-a-section-for-women/ this is going well.
04:37:05 <elliott> For the record, I have not yet received an NSL (National Security Letter). Crypto guy Matt Blaze irregularly points this out on twitter as a neat trick. An NSL forbids a person from disclosing that they received the NSL. Thus, while you can't confirm you've received one, you can simply stop posting that you haven't.
04:37:10 <elliott> man i don't fucking believe this works
04:37:30 <Bike> because only nerds would do that, for one
04:37:30 <elliott> rsync.net do it too, post a "we haven't had to blah blah blah" thing regularly
04:37:53 <elliott> is there any chance whatsoever that ceasing to publish such notices wouldn't be considered an admission that it happened in court
04:38:07 <Bike> http://jihadology.net/2010/10/26/arabic-language-forum-ash-shamukh-al-islamiyyah-announced-the-creation-of-the-shamukh-college-of-islamic-sciences/ Any student that does not attend a lecture three times or more without having permission from the college will be terminated from the program.
04:38:23 <kmc> seems like a good way to get a free one way flight to eastern europe
04:38:35 <Bike> Moreover, al-Falluja administrators urged members and visitors on the forums “to take caution and wariness in corresponding via private messages…[and] to use Asrar al-Mujahideen [the Mujahideen Secrets] software and to not avoid this matter.” The aforementioned software, developed by al-Ekhlaas Forum, is a coded-software that enables forum members to communicate directly with Al-Qaida’s offshoot in the Arabian Peninsula (AQAP).
04:39:08 <kmc> http://www.bentoandstarchky.com/dec/audio/Gangster%20Computer%20God%20Worldwide%20Secret%20Containment%20Policy.mp3
04:39:29 <Bike> elliott: nerds are the saddest lawyers.
04:39:41 <elliott> kmc: my weakness: filenames like that
04:39:50 <elliott> wait is this that guy
04:39:56 <Bike> Yeah.
04:41:06 <elliott> this is relaxing
04:41:10 <elliott> i feel reassured
04:41:16 <Bike> http://www.theonion.com/articles/it-sure-has-been-a-while-since-the-tonight-show-di,31267/
04:41:20 <elliott> kmc: holy fuck
04:41:23 <elliott> that erratasec blog
04:41:24 -!- aloril has joined.
04:41:25 <elliott> People are asking if Edward Snowden (the NSA leaker) is libertarian. My answer is "probably".
04:41:28 <elliott> We libertarians have a sort of "gaydar", we can spot fellow libertarians even when they say things that are completely neutral and non-political. Back in the day, I was in the "libertarian-closet", and tried to hide my wacky feelings for limited government. I tried to talk and act like everyone else. However, other libertarians could tell my true self. I never understood how that was possible.
04:41:34 <elliott> Now that I've gotten older, I've discovered that I've got libradar, too, and can often recognize my fellow wackos. I can't say consciously what makes me feel that Snowden is libertarian, but I get that vibe from him.
04:41:38 <elliott> pppdsfdpogshjfgkdk.fdg;'lsfk
04:41:45 <Bike> ok well he probably is actually a libertarian
04:41:47 <Bike> but: that's great
04:41:59 <elliott> We libertarians have a sort of "gaydar"
04:43:05 * kmc ponders libertarianism
04:43:35 <elliott> kmc more like kmponder
04:43:57 <Bike> hayek is kind of interesting, libertarian-wise
04:44:00 <kmc> why don't i hear more libertarians trying to loudly differentiate themselves from the privilege-denying fuckwit contingent
04:44:11 <kmc> is it because i don't listen to anyone who identifies as a libertarian
04:44:13 <Bike> i have a book by a market socialist whose thesis advisor was Hayek
04:44:21 <Bike> i feel that this may have been sort of awkward?
04:44:56 <Bike> kmc: well among the obvious answers, how about that they actually believe that 2-axis politics crap
04:45:05 <kmc> if you believe in limited government but you also donate 50% of your income to help the less fortunate, that might be respectable?
04:45:16 <kmc> it's not like current governments do a great job of helping poor people
04:45:37 <Bike> i work in a private enterprise that feeds poor people
04:45:39 <elliott> synergising recent topics of: NSA, they might be giants: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z32-eLOoAUU
04:45:41 <Bike> where's the help ron paul??
04:45:46 <kmc> hehe
04:46:03 <Bike> (btw because i'm still thinking about it they're gonna cut billions from SNAP and aaaaah)
04:46:14 <kmc> :/
04:46:30 <Bike> elliott: Left & Right is the old tried & effective tactic of " Hegalian Dialectic. " either one you chose-the government wins. btw- in ancient greek or hebrew, Government means mind control. governing the mind,when you study Truth Etymology. you may wish to Check out max Igan's website TheCrowHosue,his podcasts on yt are under ThecrowHouse as well, if your interested in solutions- he lists MANY. & shares the hidden information that is ...
04:46:36 <Bike> ... going on -that the powers that be,hide from the masses.
04:46:45 <kmc> v. well written & persuasive
04:46:46 <elliott> yes i forgot to note the other bonus of clicking that link in that the comments are now predictably nuts
04:47:19 <Bike> http://www.thenation.com/blog/174753/sword-drops-food-stamps, specifically
04:47:21 <Bike> i am not excite
04:47:23 <kmc> Truth Etymology
04:47:41 <kmc> is that some sovereign citizen shit
04:47:48 <elliott> 05:44:56 <Bike> kmc: well among the obvious answers, how about that they actually believe that 2-axis politics crap
04:47:51 <elliott> 05:46:30 <Bike> elliott: Left & Right is the old tried & effective tactic of " Hegalian Dialectic. "
04:47:57 <elliott> Bike: consistency
04:48:33 <Bike> elliott: you said you were asleep and now you're not asleep!!
04:48:48 <elliott> when did i say i was asleep
04:48:53 <Bike> anyway this is especially annoying because SNAP is one of the least wasteful government programs that exist they have graphs for this
04:48:56 <Bike> elliott: i dunno like a week ago
04:49:50 * Bike lastlog's elliott.*sleep, discovers just how often you fucking ask
04:49:53 <Bike> (it's a lot)
04:50:04 <Bike> 20:37 < elliott> i am going to sleep
04:50:14 <elliott> how long is your fuckin lastlog
04:50:30 <shachaf> Bike: should i sleep
04:50:31 <elliott> so i can set it to be that long
04:50:45 <Bike> 13:18 < elliott> i sleep now. i can only pray gregor's voice survives the brutal night
04:51:04 <Bike> this was in april. that's barely two months ago!!
04:51:25 <elliott> how does your lastlog go back to fucking april
04:51:29 <Bike> 22:33 < elliott> um i dont sleep Bike you have a history of lack of history
04:51:39 <Bike> that was march btw
04:51:48 <elliott> come on what do i have to fix in my irssi
04:52:39 -!- Frooxius has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
04:52:41 <Bike> sleep
04:53:20 <elliott> it's not even 6 yet
04:53:37 <Bike> it's not even my dick yet
04:54:15 <kmc> suddenly, dicks
04:54:35 <elliott> when will it be your dick Bike
04:54:47 <Bike> never. i've taken a vow.
04:54:57 <elliott> Ah
04:57:01 <elliott> it's really annoying how early it gets light
04:57:14 <kmc> i prefer it to the early darkness in the winter
04:57:22 <kmc> you should get black-out shades
04:57:39 <elliott> kmc: agree re: early darkness
04:57:40 <kmc> in college I slept under my desk in a kind of sleeping pod / coffin with thick curtains and wood walls
04:57:50 <kmc> this was good if my roomates were playing loud music or having sex etc
04:57:55 <elliott> well, the curtains are open right now because i didn't bother to shut them :V
04:58:04 <kmc> try being less lazy
04:58:04 <elliott> which i am sure correlates with me sleeping worse
04:58:10 <elliott> kmc: i think that is the hardest thing
04:58:38 <elliott> anyway the perfect season is one where it gets bright late and dark late, imo someone should invent it
04:59:04 <kmc> that's called 'shifting your sleep schedule'
04:59:30 <elliott> no
04:59:32 <elliott> you don't understand
04:59:36 <elliott> it's everyone else that should shift
04:59:45 <elliott> `quote peple
04:59:46 <HackEgo> 116) <zzo38> Some people are reasonable, some people who are not reasonable insist on changing things so therefore progress depends on not reasonablepeple
04:59:48 <Bike> http://25.media.tumblr.com/a97d40d2ad1395c4d197e5724c80121a/tumblr_mob8t8kQuB1r8se0eo1_1280.jpg pictured: kmc
04:59:52 <elliott> ^ me
04:59:56 <elliott> that was re: 116 not re: Bike
04:59:59 <Bike> you're the bird
05:00:00 <Fiora> kmc: I know someone who did that kind of thing too, moved their mattress from above their desk to under their desk
05:00:07 <Fiora> I'd probably be claustrophobic but it sounds really nice
05:00:09 <kmc> yeah it was reasonably popular
05:00:13 <kmc> you get more storage space too
05:00:29 <Fiora> our dorm was the quiet dorm, and it had a thing people jokingly called the intercom
05:00:34 <Fiora> which was that sound travelled really really well
05:00:35 <Bike> great now i'm going to be thinking about this when i look at dorms on monday
05:00:40 <elliott> feel like this would be a good time to make a monqy sleeping on the floor joke but unfortunately he isn't here
05:00:40 <Fiora> so like if you made a lot of noise people would come breathe down your neck
05:00:42 <Fiora> so it was usually super quiet
05:00:46 <Bike> what is the sleepabilitiy of this desk
05:00:52 <kmc> haha
05:01:24 <elliott> Fiora: i think that would make me paranoid to make any sound whatsoever
05:01:28 <kmc> we also had some people reorganize rooms by function
05:01:34 <kmc> a quiet room with a bunch of beds, a socializing room
05:01:44 <Fiora> well people mainly just didn't talk much in their rooms
05:01:46 <kmc> Epsilon Theta at MIT takes this to the extreme
05:01:56 <Bike> collectivize the dorms
05:01:59 <kmc> they all sleep in a big room in the attic which is quiet and dark 24/7
05:02:04 <Bike> wow
05:02:27 <Bike> ok i'm organizing pdfs; what folder should i put a document about jihadist nerds dying in syria in
05:02:28 <elliott> imo, communism
05:02:33 <Bike> ~open poll~
05:02:47 <elliott> Bike: wow good horse_ebooks, is that a recent one
05:02:53 <elliott> i "lost track" of horse_ebooks
05:02:59 <Bike> i have no idea
05:03:25 <kmc> well i assume the folders are Chaos, Discord, Confusion, Bureaucracy, Aftermath in which case I would say Chaos
05:03:27 <Fiora> geez, everyone in the dorm sleeping together?
05:03:40 <Bike> hm ok
05:03:49 <elliott> https://twitter.com/Horse_ebooks/status/344933381060038656 https://twitter.com/Horse_ebooks/status/344949349907849216 still goin wrong i see
05:03:52 <elliott> uh
05:03:53 <elliott> by wrong i mean strong
05:03:53 * Bike moves to Psychology (burn)
05:04:02 <kmc> well typed horse ebooks do not go wrong
05:04:23 <elliott> kmc: i think the badly-typed ones are usually funnier
05:04:54 <kmc> "There was always a danger of side effects . Sometimes the side effects could be serious. Danger of"
05:05:05 <elliott> haskell_ebooks
05:05:07 <Bike> oh no
05:05:42 <elliott> todo: add a markov chain generator to lambdabot
05:05:51 <Bike> i really need to get mendeley or something ugh
05:06:01 <Bike> i have so much crap in a "Computer Engineering" folder
05:06:36 <elliott> Bike: yo if you figure out a good thing to dump pdfs into let me know
05:06:40 <elliott> i forget why i decided not to try mendeley
05:06:49 <Bike> i think anyone reading the titles of all these papers would conclude that i was compulsive
05:07:00 <kmc> my friend who proofreads / typesets papers says that mendeley kind of sucks but she doesn't know a better alternative
05:07:06 <Bike> fuck
05:07:09 <Bike> elliott: write one in haskell
05:07:19 <elliott> my requirements: metadata, it fills in the metadata for me from a citeseerx link or something, tagging, full body text search
05:07:28 <Bike> yeah that sounds pretty nice
05:07:29 <elliott> that's pretty much it
05:07:59 <Bike> i suddenly forget if citeseerx covers more than CS
05:08:10 <elliott> also it should have a magic button to turn awful .ps files without selectable text into .pdfs with selectable text
05:08:14 <Bike> maybe i'm thinking of ACM
05:08:25 <Bike> god i have so many pdfs without selectable text
05:08:31 <Bike> or worse, badly selectable text
05:08:33 <Bike> imo war crime
05:08:33 <elliott> citeseerx does all sciences I think?
05:08:42 <kmc> even the dismal science?
05:08:43 <Bike> yeah looks like it
05:08:43 <elliott> Bike: i like the ones where it's badly auto-OCR'd behidn the scenes
05:08:46 <elliott> so you copy it and it's just fuck
05:08:48 <Bike> YES fuck that
05:09:16 <Bike> sometimes it's just like, fuck you i'll type up this whole fucking 19th century book on bugs for you if it means i can paste without getting insane garbage
05:09:33 <Bike> itt nerdy as shit
05:10:22 <elliott> what's anything written before the 60s
05:10:29 <elliott> "not my field"
05:10:42 <elliott> ok 60s is wrong
05:10:51 <elliott> and you're going to say babbage or something
05:10:54 <elliott> and i'm oignoi tjoeri jdgk sgnfkjslztps`df
05:10:55 <elliott> [zpcX}|VLkz;fsmknorhtJGKPSDVX|:CL/ko
05:10:56 <elliott> lagoepF :|SZdlfkpGN]rgaw
05:10:57 <elliott> ezsd pfdo]l[ \"DX>?C Bd
05:10:58 <elliott> szg\;XVC">?,ml
05:11:01 <elliott> de=sw3za]`[;
05:11:03 <elliott> `l
05:11:05 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: l: not found
05:11:06 <elliott> ]df[\hg;'N?
05:11:07 <Bike> I actually tried to read Babbage's Bridgewater treatise once.
05:11:14 <Bike> (it was boring)
05:11:25 <Bike> I have sometimes got the shitty OCR problem with like 60s papers on GC or shit like that
05:11:35 <elliott> does anyone mind if i flood the channel with say 5-10 lines
05:11:39 <elliott> of lambdabot command listing
05:11:42 <Bike> didn't you already do that
05:11:43 <Bike> oh
05:11:43 <elliott> it would be emotionally helpful
05:11:49 <Bike> well you're asleep so
05:11:51 <Bike> i say go for it
05:11:52 <elliott> great
05:11:53 <elliott> lambdabot: @
05:11:53 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: . 1337 ? @ activity activity-full admin all-dicts arr ask b52s bf bid botsnack bouvier brain bug check choice-add choose cide clear-messages clear-topic compose define dequeue-topic
05:11:54 <lambdabot> devils dice dict-help djinn djinn-add djinn-clr djinn-del djinn-env djinn-names djinn-ver do docs dummy easton echo elements elite eval faq farber flush foldoc forget fortune free freshname gazetteer
05:11:54 <lambdabot> get-shapr get-topic ghc girl19 google googleit gsite gwiki hackage haskellers help hitchcock hoogle hoogle+ id ignore index instances instances-importing irc-connect jargon join karma karma+ karma-
05:11:54 <lambdabot> karma-all keal kind l33t learn leave leet let list listall listchans listmodules listservers localtime localtime-reply messages messages-loud messages? more msg nazi-off nazi-on nixon oeis offline
05:11:54 <lambdabot> palomer part paste ping pinky pl pl-resume pointful pointless pointy poll-add poll-close poll-list poll-remove poll-result poll-show pop-topic pretty print-notices protontorpedo purge-notices push-
05:11:55 <lambdabot> [3 @more lines]
05:11:57 <elliott> @more
05:11:57 <lambdabot> topic queue-topic quit quote rc reconnect remember repoint roll run sequence set-topic shift-topic shootout show slap smack spell spell-all src tell thank you thanks thesaurus thx tic-tac-toe ticker
05:11:59 <lambdabot> time todo todo-add todo-delete type undefine undo unlambda unmtl unpf unpl unpointless unshift-topic uptime url v vera version vote what where where+ wiki wn world02 yarr yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw
05:12:01 <lambdabot> yow
05:12:04 <elliott> yow
05:12:06 <Bike> yow
05:12:08 <Bike> @shootout
05:12:08 <lambdabot> http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/gp4/benchmark.php?test=all&lang=all
05:12:13 <elliott> really glad yow gets its own line
05:12:14 <Bike> oh i was thinking shooting
05:12:33 <elliott> @localtime Bike
05:12:35 <lambdabot> Local time for Bike is Wed Jun 12 22:12:34 2013
05:12:36 <elliott> @help localtime-reply
05:12:36 <lambdabot> time <user>. Print a user's local time. User's client must support ctcp pings.
05:12:38 <elliott> hm
05:12:42 <Bike> oh no
05:12:42 <elliott> @localtime-reply sdjfsdjf
05:12:45 <elliott> what is this
05:12:50 <elliott> @localtime elliott
05:12:50 <Bike> what is what
05:12:53 <elliott> localtime-reply
05:12:56 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Thu Jun 13 06:12:50 2013
05:13:00 <Bike> it just CTCP TIMEs you
05:13:18 <elliott> ah hm
05:13:21 <elliott> yes i know that
05:13:21 <elliott> but
05:13:23 <elliott> @localtime elliott
05:13:25 <elliott> @localtime-reply q
05:13:30 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Thu Jun 13 06:13:23 2013
05:13:33 <elliott> hmm
05:13:39 <elliott> @localtime elliott
05:13:39 <elliott> @localtime-reply q
05:13:43 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Thu Jun 13 06:13:39 2013
05:13:43 <Bike> wait is this like asyncronous.
05:13:47 <elliott> yeah
05:13:53 <Bike> that makes no fucking sense i love it
05:13:55 <elliott> it uh
05:13:58 <elliott> maps the ctcp reply to a privmsg
05:14:01 <elliott> with @localtime-reply in front of it
05:14:03 <elliott> fucking disgusting
05:14:07 <Bike> @localtime-reply elliott
05:14:10 <elliott> i should
05:14:11 <elliott> fix that
05:14:14 <Bike> i don't get it oh no
05:14:33 <Bike> i wonder why i have this paper on tobacco viruses
05:15:06 <kmc> they are hella studied viruses aren't they
05:15:13 <Bike> "Evolution is the process by which the genetic structure of the population of an organism changes with time." well i guess whoever wrote this was really fucking desperate to fill out the abstract
05:15:17 <Bike> yeah, the first in fact
05:15:25 <Bike> whatshername who invented DNA studied them, too! it's cool
05:15:59 <Fiora> Filler is the process by which the abstract of a paper is progressively padded with redundant information which the intended audience of the paper is already aware of.
05:16:09 <Bike> yeah. yeah, basically
05:16:10 <kmc> weird how many important plants are in Solanaceae
05:16:17 <Bike> wasn't something like that in SIGBOVIK
05:16:23 <kmc> tomatos and potatoes and tobacco and DEADLY NIGHTSHADE
05:16:49 <Bike> well you know what they say, large genera have diverse speciation
05:16:53 <elliott> i'm reminded of irl tomacco
05:16:55 <elliott> for some reason
05:17:01 <kmc> do they say that
05:17:01 <Bike> tom...acco?
05:17:12 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Products_produced_from_The_Simpsons#Tomacco
05:17:16 <Bike> oh right
05:17:18 <elliott> fantastic article title
05:17:38 <Bike> kmc: it's in origin of species actually, it's pretty cool. darwin's like "yo without evolution how do you explain that big genera have more varieties" and the creationists were like "uhhhhhh"
05:18:17 <Bike> "E-I-E-I-(Annoyed Grunt)" heh i forgot that was the title
05:19:13 <kmc> that reminds me also that the genus Clostridium is responsible for botulism, tetanus, terrifying antibiotic-resistant hospital diarrhea disease, and salt-rising bread
05:19:27 <Bike> elliott: probably not helping tomaccoism: the virus is actually called Tobamovirus
05:19:33 <kmc> and gas gangrene
05:19:42 <Bike> is that gangrene you get from gasoline
05:19:42 <kmc> and 'pulpy kidney disease' in sheep
05:19:47 <kmc> no, good guess tho
05:19:50 <Bike> ok uh that sounds worse than the rest
05:19:59 <elliott> Bike: barack tobamo
05:19:59 <kmc> if you're a sheep..............
05:20:01 <Bike> i don't... i don't want pulpy kidneys
05:20:21 <elliott> yo
05:20:22 <kmc> i don't think you want gas gangrene or turbodiarrhea either
05:20:23 <elliott> should i sleep
05:20:24 <Bike> [that latin word i forget that means spread of disease between animal species] kmc!!
05:20:31 <Bike> elliott: yes or i'll infect you with MRSA
05:20:42 <elliott> i remember MRSA
05:20:43 <elliott> good times
05:20:53 <Bike> it still exists hth
05:20:57 <kmc> memory resident software application
05:20:58 <elliott> i also remember foot and mouth
05:20:59 <elliott> good times
05:21:13 <kmc> what about mad cow
05:21:33 <elliott> i think that was "before my time"?
05:21:33 <elliott> not sure
05:21:34 <kmc> they have totally drug-resistant TB in india now
05:21:35 <Bike> only true 90s kids remember rinderpest
05:21:55 <kmc> cool, eradicated
05:22:07 <Bike> it's "the other eradicated disease" yeah
05:22:27 <kmc> i read http://www.amazon.com/dp/0312427654 recently
05:22:29 <Bike> i think next on the list is some kind of worm i forget
05:22:29 <kmc> good book
05:22:51 <Bike> kind of a shame because Dracunculiasis is a pretty boss name
05:22:56 <kmc> he talks about the campaign to eradicate polio and how they are always very close but it's almost impossible to finish the job
05:23:09 <Bike> ugh that just reminds me of reports from pakistan
05:23:26 <elliott> imo eradicate colds and headaches next twh
05:23:28 <kmc> if a kid gets polio in an area where it's uncommon, the CDC sends like thousands of people there overnight to vaccinate everyone
05:23:42 <Bike> colds kill half a million people every year but aren't on the list
05:23:44 <Bike> such is disease
05:23:56 <kmc> yeah well cars kill several million people every year
05:24:00 <elliott> Bike: no no
05:24:02 <elliott> i mean for selfish reasons
05:24:05 <Bike> yes i know
05:24:09 <elliott> i mean, i've never had rinderpest, personally.
05:24:18 <Fiora> I don't think you're a cow
05:24:19 <Bike> eradicate disease in elliotts
05:24:27 <Bike> Fiora: you'd be surprised!
05:24:37 <shachaf> the monomorphism restriction is a good way to avoid polio
05:24:39 <Fiora> elliott is a cow?
05:24:46 * elliott is a perfectly spherical cow
05:24:49 <Bike> yes.
05:24:56 <kmc> moo
05:25:03 <kmc> apt-get moo
05:25:04 <Bike> it's cool how i'd never heard of two of the next three diseases to be eliminated and i'll never get them
05:25:11 <shachaf> copumpkin: hey kmc is infringing on your trademark
05:25:15 <Bike> wow yaws looks... really nasty, though
05:25:21 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Yaws_01.jpg warning: ew
05:25:28 <elliott> how ew are we talking
05:25:34 <elliott> i'm about to sleep so i don't need awful mental images
05:25:44 <Bike> not as ew as that picture of the guy with the necrotic leg
05:25:49 <Bike> just lumpy
05:27:20 <Bike> oh now i'm pissed about malaria vaccination again help
05:27:42 <kmc> what about it
05:27:48 <kmc> is that a thing?
05:27:59 <Bike> er, measles i meant
05:28:05 <kmc> oh
05:28:08 <coppro> why are you pissed?
05:28:10 <Bike> malaria is just bad all by itself
05:28:21 <Bike> coppro: do you know about "the controversy"
05:28:27 <kmc> oh was shachaf's statement an extremly oblique pun on "MMR"?
05:28:27 <coppro> assume I don't
05:28:42 <shachaf> kmc: no, just "poly-o"
05:28:57 <Bike> well some people think measles vaccines cause autism and so don't get them and then get measles
05:29:00 <Bike> the end
05:29:22 <Bike> anyway did you know there's such a thing as infectious blindness (in humans). elliott: do you need this to sleep
05:29:26 <shachaf> hey kmc why do books have forewords that are added years after the book is written and are only interesting to people who have already read the book
05:29:34 <shachaf> why not just put it at the end of the book
05:29:37 <coppro> Bike: yes, elliott needs infectious blindness to sleep
05:29:48 <Bike> shachaf: those suck
05:30:08 <Bike> especially for real old novels where they explain the whole plot.
05:30:15 <coppro> more like boreword amirite
05:31:58 <Fiora> maybe they should be postwords?
05:32:19 <Bike> my copy of On the Road has a few of those.
05:32:33 <coppro> is it better than The Road?
05:32:35 <coppro> because that book is shit
05:33:09 <coppro> "Why are we on a road?" "Because we have to be." "Okay." "Okay." "Okay."
05:33:14 <coppro> there, I have summarized the entire book
05:33:20 <kmc> waiting for godot's road
05:33:36 <Bike> i haven't read The Road but I stopped reading On the Road because I got bored of him going on about random sex with run-on sentences
05:33:49 <coppro> that doesn't sound quite as bad
05:33:51 <kmc> how do you even have sex with a sentence
05:34:01 <Bike> i dunno but he managed
05:34:06 <Bike> (my copy is pre-editing. it shows)
05:34:31 <kmc> fucking tweakers
05:34:38 <shachaf> hey Bike did you read three men in a boat
05:35:02 <shachaf> that's a book about a road.......made of water
05:35:03 <Bike> maybe
05:35:04 <shachaf> also it's goo
05:35:08 <shachaf> d
05:35:20 <Bike> that reminds me that the Solaris film is apparently freely watchable
05:35:25 <Bike> except I don't understand Russian.
05:35:37 <shachaf> kmc can confirm that _Three Men in a Boat_ is good.
05:35:41 <kmc> yep
05:35:46 <Bike> confirmed
05:35:51 <Bike> @google three men in a boat
05:35:51 <lambdabot> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Men_in_a_Boat
05:35:51 <lambdabot> Title: Three Men in a Boat - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
05:36:18 <Bike> hm, looks good.
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05:36:45 <shachaf> http://www.gutenberg.org/files/308/308-h/308-h.htm
05:37:25 <Bike> oh, that's convenient.
05:37:33 <Bike> guess i'll read it once i sort these pdfs.
05:37:37 <Bike> thx
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06:01:22 <shachaf> imo http://www.chrisstucchio.com/blog/2013/write_some_fucking_code.html is a bit unfair to the whole idea of reading about things you're learning about
06:02:16 <kmc> yeah
06:02:29 <Bike> ha, ha, sexually oriented jokes
06:02:34 <shachaf> that too
06:03:24 <Bike> i thought monad tutorials were a thing that's so stale that every meta-commentary on meta-commentaries about them is already just as stale, etc
06:03:42 <kmc> i wonder if this person has seen the burrito article
06:03:43 <kmc> oh well
06:04:43 <shachaf> kmc: that reminds me should i watch _Brazil_
06:04:51 <Bike> should i put this paper about the grandmother hypothesis under Bio/ or Anthro/
06:05:02 <kmc> yes shachaf
06:05:04 <Bike> i guess both the writers are anthropologists good enough
06:05:07 <shachaf> will it be depressing
06:05:11 <Bike> yes
06:05:37 <Bike> wow why do i have a chinual page
06:08:54 <shachaf> kmc: so when are you going to move to ca
06:08:58 <shachaf> before jul 1?
06:09:02 <kmc> yeah
06:09:05 <kmc> probably a few days before
06:09:11 <shachaf> ok
06:09:13 <kmc> talking to some people now about maybe living at their house
06:09:28 <kmc> mozilla offered me a really sweet deal including relocation expenses
06:09:53 <Bike> nice.
06:09:56 <kmc> i still don't understand why they have so much money.....
06:10:09 <Bike> who, mozilla?
06:10:11 <kmc> yes
06:10:25 <kmc> i guess when 20% of the world uses your browser, and a browser is one of the most important programs, you can make a lot of money from it
06:10:37 <Bike> I thought you said they were paid off by Google.
06:10:41 <kmc> right
06:10:50 <Bike> wow, i have a pdf reverse engineering final fantasy seven.
06:10:51 <shachaf> google has a lot more money hth
06:10:52 <kmc> i don't understand intuitively how they can make so much from that
06:11:02 <kmc> but I haven't like sat down and tried to crunch the numbers
06:11:27 <Bike> well intuitively speaking, google has basically infinite money
06:11:32 <kmc> also they don't have a mandate to pay dividends or grow in an aggressive shortsighted way
06:11:43 <Bike> oh, mozilla isn't publically traded?
06:11:49 <kmc> no, they are a non-profit foundation
06:11:54 <Bike> wack
06:12:14 <kmc> well technically Mozilla Foundation is a non-profit that owns the taxable Mozilla Corporation
06:12:25 <kmc> it's a kind of odd structure
06:12:27 <shachaf> hey if you work at mozilla in sf maybe you'll meet $REDACTED
06:12:31 <kmc> but not as sketchy as IKEA!
06:12:34 <kmc> whosat
06:12:38 <shachaf> never mind i shouldn't talk about it
06:12:48 <Bike> well that's not ominous at all
06:12:52 <kmc> i remember someone tried to draw the corporate ownership chart at my finance job and it was wack
06:12:58 <kmc> like every trading strategy had its own LLC
06:13:05 <kmc> that were owned in some kind of complicated tree
06:13:09 <Bike> jesus
06:13:10 <shachaf> Why?
06:13:14 <kmc> and then my actual employer was just contracting services to them
06:13:23 <Bike> that's some Accelerando shit
06:13:24 <kmc> except my actual ACTUAL employer was a HR services provider
06:13:29 <kmc> yeah exactly
06:13:52 <kmc> i read Accelerando a few months before I started looking for jobs out of college, and I have to say that I took the HFT job in large part because of that book
06:13:52 <Bike> np-complete problems of the future: find a hamiltonian cycle of your employer
06:13:56 <kmc> :D :D
06:13:57 <Bike> haha
06:14:05 <kmc> i presume they are independent LLCs so that each strategy can go bankrupt on its own
06:14:15 <Bike> that's, i don't know what that is.
06:14:24 <Bike> some kind of bizarre evolutionary strategy
06:14:46 <Bike> it's like if i had nine independent hands and each one was wired a different way, and if i lost a hand well whatever it probably sucked anyway
06:14:52 <kmc> also e.g. some parts of the company-cluster were certified broker-dealers, which gets you certain rights and privileges in the markets
06:15:03 <kmc> and some of the strategies had to be extra super legally separate so they got offices with doors.
06:15:16 <shachaf> were there people in the offices
06:15:33 <kmc> a few
06:15:43 <Bike> were the people publically traded
06:15:50 <kmc> no afaik
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06:16:11 <shachaf> Bike: can i buy shares of Bike
06:16:21 <kmc> also some of the traders retained ownership of their trading code and had brought it from other firms
06:16:25 <Bike> i bet somewhere there's a company where different strategies have their own LLCs and compete over employees in a private market
06:16:31 <kmc> yes
06:16:47 <Bike> shachaf: i bud, sorry
06:16:49 <kmc> we sort of did that
06:16:53 <Bike> nice
06:17:04 <kmc> the 'general' pool of programmers was (at least at one point) seen mainly as a tool for recruiting people into strategies
06:17:07 <Bike> should i keep these pdfs from a space school about Future Technology
06:17:14 <kmc> and the idea that they would actually produce generally useful code was maybe secondary
06:17:32 <Bike> heh
06:17:53 <Bike> i have a paper on classical conditioning being sub-turing...
06:18:03 <kmc> also the sysadmin group was its own little fiefdom and if you wanted good computers or whatever, you needed to have a lot of trade revenue so you could promise them big bonuses
06:18:16 <Bike> that's uh, weird
06:18:23 <kmc> yet they had none of the transparency or SLAs or such you would expect from an actual internal market
06:18:25 <shachaf> kmc: do all finance companies work this way
06:18:29 <kmc> i think they were moving in that direction when I left
06:18:30 <kmc> shachaf: no
06:18:43 <kmc> shachaf: there's a spectrum between "unified company" and "shell for many independent strategies"
06:18:43 <shachaf> it's always sounded like yours was kind of dysfunctional
06:18:47 <kmc> yeah it was
06:18:55 <Bike> how was it dysfunctional?
06:18:58 <kmc> at some firms, everyone can see all the code, and all the money is pooled deterministically
06:19:02 <kmc> well see above, for one
06:19:15 <kmc> also the sysadmin group was just bad at their jobs, but they couldn't be fired because Personal Connections
06:19:17 <Bike> ok well i don't even know what "SLA" means, maybe i shouldn't ask
06:19:23 <kmc> service level agreement
06:19:35 <Bike> still no idea :P
06:19:39 <kmc> like "we will provide 99.9% uptime or else you get $bignum"
06:20:00 <Bike> a contract?
06:20:01 <kmc> if you were actually buying trading infrastructure services from an external company, you would want one
06:20:04 <shachaf> or sometimes "we will provide 99.9% uptime or else you get $thedifferenceinhostingcostswhichisbasicallynothing"
06:20:07 <kmc> but the internal sysadmin group didn't provide them
06:20:33 <kmc> basically I'm saying they tried to sell their services internally, but in an opaque and unaccountable way
06:20:37 <Bike> right
06:20:40 <Bike> ALSO still waiting for an answer on the space thing
06:20:52 <kmc> they were absurdly miserly about small things like RAM upgrades
06:20:56 <shachaf> Bike: delete all pdfs hth
06:20:57 <kmc> for production high frequency trading machines
06:21:08 <Bike> what about the paper about inter-universal teichmuller theory, which i will never, ever understand
06:21:10 <kmc> and I have to think it wasn't just about the miniscule cost but about making pepole beg and bargain
06:21:13 <kmc> also what about space
06:21:46 <Bike> i have some pdfs from a mildly shady space technology oriented school, about terraforming and impact in African nations and such
06:21:58 <Bike> not sure if i believe them well enough to keep them so why not ask people who really don't give a damn (that's you)
06:23:06 <kmc> hm don't want to read these atm
06:24:12 <kmc> "On 20 December 2011 Mozilla announced that the contract was once again renewed for at least three years to November 2014, at three times the amount previously paid, or nearly US$300 million annually"
06:24:21 <Bike> from google?
06:24:23 <kmc> yes
06:24:29 <kmc> for making Google the default search engine in Firefox
06:24:42 <Bike> that's an incredible payoff for just that
06:24:45 <kmc> "due to competing interest from both Yahoo and Microsoft"
06:25:03 <kmc> it is a staggering amount of money, but I don't really have a handle on how much Google makes from those searches
06:25:07 <kmc> presumably they think it's a good deal
06:25:27 <kmc> MSFT has loads of money and if FF switched to Bing, that would be a huge blow
06:25:56 <kmc> so I guess my salary is effectively a byproduct of a Google / MSFT bidding war, at least until 2014
06:26:09 <kmc> i can't really find this any weirder or less reputable than the way other tech companies get funded
06:26:20 <coppro> I wonder why MSFT hasn't sued for antitrust yet
06:26:31 <kmc> sued Google for bundling, or such?
06:26:40 <kmc> bit of pot kettle there, don't you think ;)
06:26:40 <coppro> cartels, or something
06:26:45 <coppro> oh, definitely
06:26:47 <coppro> see: patents
06:26:58 <kmc> eh i don't think it's a cartel if Mozilla auctioned it off to the highest bidder
06:27:17 <coppro> the pot calls the kettle black, and the chicken comes by and gets covered in soot
06:27:23 <kmc> i'm not much of a lawyer though
06:27:28 <coppro> before yelling at the pot and kettle about how black they are
06:27:34 <shachaf> kmc: i thought you were my attorney
06:27:36 <Bike> that reminds me, did you know there's a word for the dual situation of a monopoly, where there's only one buyer?
06:27:38 <coppro> then someone turns out the lights
06:27:40 <Bike> think that's pretty cool
06:27:44 <coppro> Bike: monopsony
06:27:48 <Bike> yes
06:28:09 <kmc> cool word
06:28:51 <Bike> why_i_dont_have_a_girlfriend.pdf
06:28:52 <coppro> kmc: your country's department of defence has a monopsony
06:28:56 <kmc> yeah was about to say
06:28:58 <coppro> and still manages to waste shit-tons of money
06:29:08 <kmc> though not quite, because we export hella weapons, but that's also approved by the govt
06:29:24 <Bike> i like the bit where the navy was the only one buying aircraft carriers and there's also only one corporation that can build aircraft carriers
06:29:26 <kmc> they waste shit-tons of money because of regulatory capture I guess
06:29:29 <Bike> free market in action right there
06:29:38 <coppro> kmc: you also have like 300k people with top secret clearance
06:29:41 <coppro> not so top really
06:29:43 <kmc> it's not really 'waste', it's deliberately being funneled to for-profit companies
06:29:48 <kmc> i'm sure there's a lot of actual waste too
06:30:00 <Bike> just dump the money into the reactors
06:30:17 <kmc> "Fair use for Tsar Bomba... The photograph belongs to Russian department of Atomic Energy Minatom. Introducing the picture on our server does not interfere with their ability to develop and market new nuclear devices"
06:30:25 <coppro> man, you know what the world needs?
06:30:34 <Bike> more cool ships?
06:30:37 <coppro> a device which tells you which wiki is better: the one on wikia or the one that isn't
06:30:41 <coppro> since everything has exactly two wikis
06:30:42 <shachaf> coppro: well there are higher clearance levels
06:30:46 <shachaf> coppro: but you're not allowed to know about them
06:31:00 <Bike> yeah that would be pretty nice coppro
06:31:05 <Bike> let's get elliott to invent it
06:31:11 <kmc> doors in the rudders of big ships
06:31:15 <shachaf> coppro: The one on Wikia is worse by definition. hth
06:33:02 <Bike> also the US classification system has secret/top secret and all but also has this weird sort of tag system
06:33:02 <coppro> shachaf: well there's cosmic top secret
06:33:03 <coppro> and gamma
06:33:19 <Bike> particularly there are Special Interest Groups which you sometimes need classification to know about
06:33:20 <coppro> shachaf: that's far from true
06:33:26 <kmc> SIGBOVIK
06:33:37 <Bike> CIA special interest group on bovikation
06:33:38 <coppro> Bike: this is reasonably common
06:33:41 <shachaf> SIGKILL
06:33:46 <coppro> I imagine that the US needs them more than other countries
06:33:55 <coppro> but classified info is normally need-to-know
06:34:09 <kmc> bovakistan
06:34:09 <coppro> having clearance is necessary but far from sufficient
06:34:17 <Bike> i just have no idea about other countries because i haven't looked
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06:34:30 <Bike> US classification I know about because it's on wikileaks docs etc
06:34:33 <coppro> the tagging system is, I assume, just a way of implementing
06:34:40 <Bike> yeah
06:34:52 <Bike> stuff like NOFORN = even if a foreign national has clearance don't show 'em
06:34:53 <Bike> et
06:34:54 <Bike> c
06:35:05 <coppro> oh, that
06:35:10 <coppro> NOFORN would be different, I think
06:35:23 <coppro> since a foreign national even with the need to know couldn't be given NOFORN info
06:35:47 <Bike> they do sometimes make exceptions i think but yeah
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06:36:03 <shachaf> would i be allowed to see NOFORN things
06:36:25 <coppro> shachaf: yeah they're all on wikileaks
06:36:32 <kmc> 'allowed'
06:36:41 <Bike> allowed by wikileaks hth
06:38:30 <Bike> i don't get classification at all. there was that pakistani guy who like invented nukes for them and then they decided you're not the right kind of muslim so fuck off and bam clearance gone? governments are crazy imo
06:39:41 <Bike> i guess they did that with oppenheimer too. except w/o the muslim bit
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06:41:07 <kmc> did you know oppenheimer tried to poison his professor
06:41:16 <Bike> not surprised
06:41:48 <kmc> who hasn't, really
06:42:20 <shachaf> Sigh, why do people *still* spread monad misinformation? Just plain lies.
06:42:34 <shachaf> Maybe we should have a test that you have to pass before you're allowed to talk about the topic.
06:42:36 <coppro> shachaf: you should classify monads
06:42:40 <shachaf> And then pass no one.
06:42:58 <Bike> monads are not a crook
06:43:13 <shachaf> Bike: how are the pdfs going
06:43:24 <kmc> are they misinformationing in #haskell
06:43:25 <coppro> when I am president of the united states
06:43:29 <coppro> I will classify the lunch menu
06:43:34 <kmc> when i am king you will be first against the wall
06:43:47 <coppro> so that anyone who tries to eat lunch in the white house without clearance is in violation of classification
06:43:52 <coppro> that's treason, citizen
06:43:55 <Bike> shachaf: moved a few dozen
06:44:12 <Bike> i think i'm too sleepy to read this paper on optimizing away Y combinators, yes
06:44:14 <shachaf> kmc: no on hn comments on that article
06:44:18 <shachaf> which i looked up for some reason
06:44:30 <Bike> that was a bad idea
06:44:31 <kmc> is that reason because you are a masochist
06:44:36 <kmc> could there be any other reason
06:44:58 <shachaf> um
06:45:12 <Bike> this paper is on kolmogorov complexity in presburger arithmetic
06:45:17 <Bike> what the fuck am i even doing with this
06:45:18 <shachaf> i'm a particular variety of masochist, sure
06:45:20 <Bike> who am i
06:45:55 <Bike> "Taming Wildcards in Java's Type System" ok strongly considering the deleting all pdfs option
06:46:07 <shachaf> elliott and i have a sort of sadism-masochism relationship
06:46:24 <shachaf> but i think he started it
06:47:13 <Bike> "Hobbes, Rawls, Nussbaum, Buchmann, and All Seven of the Virtues"
06:47:15 <shachaf> kmc: this thread is p. great
06:47:23 <shachaf> a question: "what is a monad, really?
06:47:37 <Bike> a miserable little pile of morphisms
06:47:40 <shachaf> an answer that talks about bind taking the value out of the monad and wrapping it in another monad
06:47:41 <kmc> what is monad, baby don't hurt me
06:47:46 <kmc> graaah
06:47:48 <shachaf> an answer that talks about composition of adjoint functors
06:48:04 <kmc> 15:32 < kmc> you can take the kmc out of the #haskell but you can never take the #haskell out of the kmc
06:48:06 <shachaf> this is the ideal thread of bad explanations
06:48:26 <Bike> sucks how unintuitive "a thing that follows these rules" is an explanation apparently
06:49:24 <kmc> let's focus on the real question: should i eat more noodles
06:49:28 <Bike> god yes
06:49:39 <Bike> pbr.pdf has surprisingly little to do with hipsters
06:50:01 <shachaf> `run echo "let's focus on the real question: should i eat more nooodles" | rnooodl
06:50:02 <HackEgo> let's focus on the real question: should i eat more noooodles
06:50:07 <shachaf> `run echo "let's focus on the real question: should i eat more nooodles" | rnooodl
06:50:09 <HackEgo> let's focus on the real question: should i eat more noooooooodles
06:50:13 <shachaf> that's more like it
06:50:27 <kmc> i like that PBR's claim to have won a Blue Ribbon is highly dubious
06:50:40 <kmc> like the ice cream shop down the street that says «"The World's Best Ice Cream" -- New York Times» on the window
06:50:48 <shachaf> toscanini's?
06:50:50 <kmc> yes
06:50:56 <shachaf> i was there!
06:50:58 <shachaf> i ate ice cream
06:51:02 <kmc> was it the wordl's best
06:51:11 <shachaf> the burnt caramel ice cream was not to my taste
06:51:20 <shachaf> the burnt:caramel ratio was too high
06:51:22 <Bike> shachaf will just have to eat every oether ice cream in the world to be sure
06:51:31 <kmc> do they have good ice cream in sf
06:51:48 <Bike> "The Analogy Between Physics and Topology" it's way too midnight for this shit
06:51:57 <shachaf> i was at that place with the liquid nitrogen ice cream
06:51:58 <kmc> i went to the Three Twins location in Lower Haight but then it burned down :/
06:52:01 <shachaf> prepared in front of your very eyes
06:52:03 <Bike> i think elliott linked me this one actually. fuck you, elliott. read your fucking hott
06:52:25 <shachaf> Bike: oh are you looking for papers to read
06:52:27 <shachaf> i have some
06:52:31 <Bike> no for fuck's sake
06:52:32 <kmc> Notice: Undefined index: user in include() (line 272 of /home/content/48/8614948/html/sites/all/themes/fusion/fusion_starter/node--scoop-shop.tpl.php).
06:52:37 <shachaf> do they have good frozen yogurt in downtown mountain view
06:52:47 <kmc> it was ok
06:52:49 <Bike> colorblindness in cuttlefish
06:52:52 <kmc> more about the toppings, imo
06:52:53 <Bike> this will be relevant to my life
06:52:59 <kmc> Bike: they can see polarization can't they
06:53:15 <Bike> yeah probably
06:53:28 <kmc> also can't they mimick colors? can't be totally color blind
06:53:37 <Bike> this paper is about literally exactly that
06:53:43 <kmc> well, good
06:53:50 <shachaf> more comments: "learning Haskell verges on learning mathematical concepts at times and learning monads is definitely one of those times"
06:54:01 <Bike> lol
06:54:02 <kmc> what's the tl;dr
06:54:24 <Bike> of the paper? i refer you to my "oh god it's midnight why am i doing this (dong this)"
06:54:32 <Bike> lemme look again
06:55:08 <kmc> shachaf: wow you're saying programming is related to math? incredible
06:55:29 <Bike> i guess their answer is "yep definitely colorblind but that camo thing sure is weird"
06:55:33 <shachaf> @quote programm.*math
06:55:34 <lambdabot> kmc says: Haskell isn't really designed by mathematicians. it's designed by people who programmers would consider to be mathematicians and mathematicians would consider to be programmers
06:55:34 <kmc> good science
06:55:36 <Bike> they suggest it might have to do with perception of contrast
06:55:39 <shachaf> @quote programm.*math
06:55:40 <lambdabot> kmc says: Haskell isn't really designed by mathematicians. it's designed by people who programmers would consider to be mathematicians and mathematicians would consider to be programmers
06:55:42 <shachaf> hmm
06:55:43 <shachaf> @quote programm.*math
06:55:43 <lambdabot> kmc says: Haskell isn't really designed by mathematicians. it's designed by people who programmers would consider to be mathematicians and mathematicians would consider to be programmers
06:55:56 <shachaf> @quote programming.*math
06:55:56 <lambdabot> kmc says: programming is inherently mathematical. furthermore, the connection between haskell and maths is overblown by people who don't understand the language
06:56:02 <shachaf> kmc stop it with the quotes
06:56:29 <Bike> kmquotable
06:56:41 <shachaf> @quote math.*programm
06:56:41 <lambdabot> TRWBW says: category theory gives math a bad name. sorta like functional programming does with computer science.
06:56:49 <shachaf> oh TRWBW
06:56:56 <shachaf> is TRWBW still around in ##math
06:57:08 <Bike> hey i have a paper on Blue Gene simulations of cats, awesome
06:57:30 <shachaf> kmc: I like how that quote is in the quote database twice.
06:57:42 <Bike> how can you tell
06:57:55 <Bike> actually don't answer that it can be a mystery
06:57:55 <kmc> shachaf: today I told people that you need monads to do IO the same way you need ZFC set theory to do 2+2
06:58:09 <shachaf> Bike: There's a double-spaced and single-spaced version.
06:58:15 <Bike> huh that's not such a bad analogy really
06:58:28 <Bike> what's New Foundations in this analogy
06:58:36 <shachaf> @forget kmc Haskell isn't really designed by mathematicians. it's designed by people who programmers would consider to be mathematicians and mathematicians would consider to be programmers
06:58:36 <lambdabot> Done.
06:58:41 <kmc> thanks Bike
06:58:43 <shachaf> kmc: I saw.
06:58:51 <shachaf> Reasonably analogy for that argument.
06:59:11 <shachaf> tomorrow's headlines: haskell requires programmers to know zfc to write hello world
06:59:16 <kmc> yes
06:59:26 <Bike> "[world's best] really [...] not [...] bad analogy" -- Bike
06:59:26 <kmc> well sorry actually
06:59:39 <kmc> i said you need *category theory* for IO the same way etc
06:59:49 <shachaf> Right.
07:00:00 <kmc> you need to understand the stdlib thing named "Monad" but that's not such a big deal
07:00:01 <shachaf> no one retweeted you
07:00:03 <kmc> :(
07:00:09 <kmc> you could do it
07:00:15 <shachaf> i wish i used tweeter so i could retwit you
07:00:39 <kmc> i also complained about #haskell
07:00:43 <Bike> my client doesn't show replies i guess
07:00:44 <shachaf> I saw.
07:00:44 <kmc> you probably saw that too
07:00:47 <shachaf> Maybe I should send your quote in to HWN.
07:00:56 <kmc> nobody retwerped that either
07:00:58 <kmc> which one
07:01:07 <shachaf> https://twitter.com/hwnquotes
07:01:18 <shachaf> imo retweet your own tweet and stick @HWNQuotes in front of it
07:01:21 <Bike> to be honest i'm not sure i'd want to see this argument though
07:01:21 <shachaf> that'll show 'em
07:02:06 <shachaf> btw this is the thread i was talking about if anyone else has masochistic tendencies: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5872002
07:02:09 <Bike> arguing about programming languages is like negative my things
07:02:36 <kmc> arguing about programming languages is like using similes
07:02:57 <Bike> oh shit i have a homotopy type theory paper help
07:03:06 <shachaf> Bike: rm -f -f -f hth
07:03:33 <Bike> site-name_-_title_-_mod-yyyy-mod-mm-mod-dd.pdf
07:03:34 <shachaf> hott seems "p. cool actually"
07:03:57 <shachaf> kmc: Did I ever ask you about that thing I was trying to figure out with inequality?
07:04:06 <shachaf> Type inequality.
07:04:14 <kmc> no
07:04:34 <Bike> ok finishing this tomorrow thank's for playing
07:04:46 <kmc> tia
07:05:02 <shachaf> In Haskell10 + RankNTypes, something like "forall p. p Char -> p Bool" is completely independent, as far as I can tell.
07:05:24 <shachaf> I.e. foo :: forall p. p Char -> p Bool and bar :: (forall p. p Char -> p Bool) -> Void are both unprovable (without ⊥ etc.)
07:05:55 <shachaf> GADTs and TypeFamilies both let you prove bar, but those are huge and slightly dubious extensions. Is there a smaller extension that'll let you prove bar?
07:06:16 <shachaf> ((forall p. p A -> p B) is Leibniz type equality between A and B.)
07:07:24 <kmc> *nod*
07:08:01 <shachaf> The way GADTs give it to you is more or less by omitting a warning when a GADT pattern match would lead to a unification error.
07:08:30 <shachaf> It seems, well, reasonable, but an axiom-via-not-printing-a-warning seems kind of suspicious. I'd like to see it stated explicitly somehow.
07:09:32 <shachaf> Did you get edwardkomments about affine types?
07:09:40 <kmc> no
07:10:08 <kmc> ok, I wrote the appropriate GADT
07:10:23 <kmc> data Foo t where FooChar :: Foo Char; FooBool :: Void -> Foo Bool
07:10:32 <kmc> eq :: (forall p. p Char -> p Bool) -> Void; eq f = case f FooChar of FooBool v -> v
07:10:35 <kmc> is that what you had in mind?
07:10:44 <shachaf> Right. That's how you do it with GADTs.
07:10:54 <kmc> and where do you think it should warn?
07:11:27 <shachaf> I don't necessarily think it should warn -- it's just that this "axiom" is implemented via not warning about the fact that you're not matching FooChar.
07:11:28 <kmc> btw i decided to have beer instead of more noodles
07:11:33 <Bike> you fool
07:11:44 <shachaf> I'd like to see it stated explicitly.
07:11:49 <kmc> why would you match FooChar? the type doesn't match
07:11:55 <shachaf> Right.
07:12:06 <shachaf> OK, imagine you tried to emulate GADTs with Leibniz equality.
07:12:08 <kmc> you want something like «case f FooChar of FooBool v -> v; FooChar ()»
07:12:16 <kmc> like an absurd pattern in Agda?
07:12:22 <kmc> btw I may have misremembered the syntax
07:12:26 <shachaf> Right, but you need a proof that it's absurd.
07:12:27 <kmc> Bike: i regret nothing
07:12:31 <shachaf> And that proof is Is Char Bool -> Void
07:12:35 <kmc> shachaf: ah, and... yeah
07:12:35 <shachaf> And you can't write that without GADTs.
07:12:54 <shachaf> newtype Is a b = Is (forall p. p a -> p b)
07:12:57 <kmc> agda has that notion of type equality built in though, right?
07:13:07 <shachaf> data Foo t = FooChar (Is t Char) | FooBool (Is t Bool) Void
07:13:17 <shachaf> That doesn't give you the same power as the GADT.
07:13:18 <kmc> this is your GADTs-via-Leibniz?
07:13:20 <shachaf> Yes.
07:13:22 <kmc> ok
07:13:26 <Bike> this is a funny conversation to see after "you don't need math for haskell" :P
07:13:30 <kmc> haha
07:13:38 <kmc> but it isn't Haskell!!!!!! it's Haskell + RankNTypes + GADTs
07:13:41 <kmc> ;P
07:13:50 <Bike> totes diff
07:13:58 <kmc> it's not really "needed" either...
07:14:05 <kmc> it's needed if you want to do specific cool things
07:14:37 <shachaf> "you need math to use pencil and paper! look at those people writing those complicated equations there!"
07:14:46 <kmc> you need fancy stuff if you want a far higher degree of static checking than other languages
07:14:53 <kmc> if you want only moderately higher degree, you don't
07:15:11 <Bike> the ":P" meant that wasn't supposed to be a serious criticism of either thing, just saying
07:15:14 <shachaf> moderately higher degree... is that like a master's
07:15:14 <kmc> i know
07:15:21 <kmc> i'm obliged to respnod though
07:15:25 <Bike> nerd
07:15:41 <shachaf> kmc: Anyway, in HoTT you actually *do* get equality of isomorphic types.
07:15:56 <shachaf> I.e. you can write foo :: Is Word8 Int8 or something like that.
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07:16:21 <shachaf> So HoTT is incompatible with GADTs in GHC, because it always assumes inequality.
07:17:05 <kmc> explain the last bit?
07:17:20 <shachaf> I mean that it assumes Char will never be equal to Bool.
07:17:28 <shachaf> In this case it really never will, because they're different sizes.
07:17:43 <shachaf> But if you had an isomorphism then you might be able to provide actual equality.
07:17:52 <shachaf> (NB: I don't actually understand HoTT.)
07:18:09 <kmc> hm
07:18:12 <kmc> really
07:18:26 <shachaf> By the way, GeneralizedNewtypeDeriving is also related to this. It uses unsafeCoerce as evidence that a newtype and its underlying type are equal.
07:18:31 <kmc> so in HoTT i can do (Word8 -> Int8) -> (Int8 -> Word8) -> Is Word8 Int8 ?
07:18:42 <kmc> except I also prove it's a legit isomorphism, somehow?
07:18:47 <shachaf> Well, you'd probably want an actual isomorphism, not just a pair of functions.
07:18:48 <shachaf> Yes.
07:18:52 <shachaf> I think that's the general idea.
07:19:26 <shachaf> So I think GND is actually safe in Haskell10 + RankNTypes.
07:19:37 <shachaf> It's only when you add GADTs or TypeFamilies that it breaks.
07:19:41 <kmc> interesting
07:19:51 <kmc> not surprising though
07:20:09 <kmc> my intuition is that GADTs and TFs let you use types less "parametrically" than is generally assumed in Haskell
07:20:13 <kmc> and that's the source of a lot of trouble
07:20:19 <shachaf> Right.
07:20:49 <shachaf> http://joyoftypes.blogspot.com/2012/08/generalizednewtypederiving-is.html says he couldn't figure out a way to do it with just Leibniz equality. But I think it's actually not possible, because there's something missing there.
07:21:04 <shachaf> GADTs with weaker Leibniz-style equality would probably be less useful.
07:22:36 <shachaf> Anyway what I'd like is to see the extra power that GADTs give you stated explicitly somehow.
07:22:50 <shachaf> But talking about inequality is annoying.
07:24:06 <kmc> a tweet i am not drunk enough to send: "Haskell sucks because it requires you to learn some math to do things that are simply impossible in other languages"
07:24:33 <shachaf> the solution is more beer hth
07:24:38 <kmc> out of beer
07:24:40 <kmc> switching to cider
07:25:36 <shachaf> kmc: you would get so many replies about turing completeness
07:25:40 <shachaf> it would be great
07:25:46 <kmc> :3
07:25:51 <kmc> i would
07:25:58 <Bike> uh kmc i can just use Perl to write a slime mold emulator that runs haskell
07:27:24 <kmc> programming languages is a HCI problem
07:27:28 <kmc> here's another tweet i won't send
07:27:39 <kmc> instead i will just drink more and watch Mad Men
07:27:47 <Bike> good decision
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07:37:57 <kmc> my alcohol tolerance is pretty ridiculous
07:38:35 <shachaf> kmc has a ∞-tolerance policy
07:38:39 <kmc> :D
07:38:44 <kmc> i'm a big white dude, you see
07:38:56 <kmc> also i drink often
07:39:35 <shachaf> should i drink often
07:40:02 <kmc> eh
07:40:27 <shachaf> should i drink occasionally
07:40:31 <kmc> probably
07:40:54 <kmc> i often have a few drinks, but I occasionally get properly drunk
07:40:59 <kmc> see above re: tolerance
07:42:31 <shachaf> writing drm code must be unpleasant
07:42:34 <kmc> alcohol is overrated because it's the one widely accepted legal fun drug
07:42:37 <shachaf> fighting a battle you know you'll lose
07:42:45 <kmc> but it's still worth doing from time to time
07:43:15 <kmc> shachaf: eh, or you see it like any other security measure, as something to keep out attackers of a certain skill level for a certain amount of time
07:43:28 <shachaf> Possibly.
07:43:37 <kmc> but I agree that DRM on content is pretty hopeless, because it takes only one person to put it on BitTorrent
07:43:50 <kmc> I don't understand why Hulu bothers with DRM on some shows, when those same shows can be recorded over the air
07:44:05 <kmc> things like locking down video game consoles to signed software are less hopeless
07:44:15 <kmc> it might stand for 6-18 months and that's enough for a meaningful advantage
07:44:23 <kmc> same with anti-reverse-engineering tech
07:44:39 <kmc> if you can make your competitors spend a few million or delay them by a few months, that can be a big deal
07:44:39 <shachaf> I suppose some people explicitly have it as their goal to keep the DRM uncracked for a few weeks or some period of time in which the majority of sales are usually made.
07:46:42 * kmc is picking through a big bin of diamond-cut shredder shit and is having fun identifying the source documents
07:46:56 <coppro> ... why
07:47:09 <kmc> oops here's a diamond that contains a full 1D barcode
07:47:14 <kmc> coppro: boredom
07:47:35 <kmc> it's stuff i shredded
07:48:40 <kmc> one thing I miss from college is easy access to a fireplace for document destruction
07:50:13 <shachaf> in an hour of need any space can serve as a fireplace
07:50:23 <shachaf> s/spac/plac/
07:51:02 <kmc> that is true
07:51:19 <kmc> but urban areas have these busybodies who show up and try to put out fires
07:51:31 <kmc> v. rude
07:51:47 <shachaf> and if you do it on purpose you get banned
07:51:49 <shachaf> the ultimate ban
07:51:51 <shachaf> the ur-ban
07:52:59 <shachaf> maybe i should be banned from this channel
07:53:16 <shachaf> i heard kmc was moving to sf because it was an herban area
07:53:37 <kmc> no don't banchaf :'(
07:53:40 <kmc> shachaf: yes
07:53:47 <kmc> not the only reason but... a reason
07:54:51 <kmc> somebody in SF was complaining about how they were "flying to a place where drugs are illegal"
07:55:07 <shachaf> are you going to get a what'sitcalled medical thing
07:55:28 <kmc> probably
07:55:58 <kmc> then i can visit dispensaries and get all pretentious about different strains of weed
07:56:17 <shachaf> or have it delivered to you
07:56:23 <kmc> true
07:56:28 <shachaf> p. soon Bike can do the same thing of course
07:57:24 <kmc> cool
08:00:23 <kmc> is Bike actually moving to CA
08:01:03 <shachaf> no
08:01:06 <shachaf> i meant the whole WA thing
08:07:24 <kmc> oh
08:07:25 <kmc> sure
08:07:32 <kmc> won't even need a 'green card' though
08:09:34 <shachaf> right
08:11:00 <shachaf> are drugz as good as drugz jokes
08:11:49 <kmc> hard to compare
08:12:33 <shachaf> what about drugz jokes......on drugz
08:13:06 <shachaf> need to be in san jose at 11 tomorrow
08:18:58 <kmc> why
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08:20:58 <kmc> '--sparc2.2: If an array was created on a SPARC machine with a 2.2 Linux kernel patched with RAID support, the superblock will have been created incorrectly, or at least incompatibly with 2.4 and later kernels. Using the --sparc2.2 flag with --examine will fix the superblock before displaying it.' i love computers
08:22:32 <shachaf> meeting people
08:22:38 <shachaf> hey kmc you should read `olist it's good
08:22:39 <kmc> what kind of people
08:25:49 <shachaf> san jose people
08:25:56 <shachaf> hey someone unfollowed me on twitter
08:26:01 <kmc> oh no
08:26:07 <kmc> shachaf do you have cool friends
08:26:26 <shachaf> gasp it was @darinmorrison
08:27:37 <shachaf> hmm how do i tell
08:29:37 <shachaf> http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/help-gnu-utils/2010-10/msg00002.html thanks gnu time
08:30:56 <kmc> what's two (binary) orders of magnitude between friends
08:31:09 <kmc> or 12? whatever
08:31:31 <kmc> this cider allegedly pairs with shrimps and cheeses
08:31:43 <kmc> don't like shrimps :(
08:32:06 <kmc> oh i think that icon means 'seafood generally'
08:32:47 <olsner> you don't have to eat seafood just because you drink the cider
08:32:54 <shachaf> not speaking of shrimps did you see http://www.gourmet.com/magazine/2000s/2004/08/consider_the_lobster?printable=true
08:33:45 <kmc> have not read it yet
08:33:58 <shachaf> oh did i link it before
08:34:43 <olsner> "... One visitor would argue that the celebration involves a whole lot more." is this article about drugs?
08:36:17 <kmc> no but i know of it generally
08:36:25 <kmc> one of DFW's essay collections is named after this essay
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09:24:06 <kmc> http://www.cs.nyu.edu/pipermail/fom/2013-June/017369.html Gödel's Incompleteness Theorem proved in Isabelle
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09:37:15 <shachaf> kmc: do you know about count-min sketch
09:37:21 <kmc> no
09:37:50 <shachaf> it's a thing like a bloom filter
09:38:25 <kmc> reading
09:39:37 <kmc> cool
09:41:52 <kmc> thanks
09:42:09 <kmc> wikipedia only says how to use it for counts, but I guess it can be used for other things?
09:51:06 * kmc → sleep
09:53:39 <shachaf> I don't know much more about it than you presumably do now. :-)
09:54:01 <shachaf> kmc: •Privacy preserving computations ensure that multiple parties can cooperate to compute a function of their data while only learning the answer and not anything about the inputs of the other participants. Roughan and Zhang demonstrate that the Count-Min Sketch can be used within such computations, by applying standard techniques for computing privacy preserving sums on each counter independently [15].
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10:27:13 <olsner> hmm, the norwegian seafood council wants to introduce a special swedish word for salmon from norway
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11:47:15 <fizzie> Grumble grumble. "Editing (including deleting points) is not supported for this geometry type. Editing is only supported on lines and polygons."
11:47:30 <fizzie> Apparently what I recorded with GPSLogger is a "tour" instead of a "line".
11:51:09 <fizzie> Or possibly a "track".
11:51:18 <fizzie> But a "path" is a "line".
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15:18:38 <Taneb> aaaaaaaaaaaaah
15:20:01 <Taneb> elliott, I like the new lambdabot messagey thing
15:20:23 <elliott> yw
15:20:25 <elliott> not my doing
15:20:58 <Bike> hey elliott read that book or whatever
15:22:29 <mnoqy> book??
15:23:59 <elliott> mnoqy: the hott book
15:24:04 <elliott> i'm getting Bike to remind me to read it
15:24:34 <mnoqy> ah
15:24:45 <mnoqy> i dont have a hott book but maybe i should get one
15:25:08 <elliott> mnoqy: https://github.com/HoTT/book
15:25:11 <elliott> its a "work in progress" aiui
15:25:42 <mnoqy> i'll put it on my list
15:29:40 <fizzie> I'll put it on two lists, which I'll then immediately delete.
15:43:26 <nooodl> Hott Book
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15:46:42 <elliott> bike already did that one nodl
15:52:38 <hagb4rd> how is the weather in hexham now?
15:53:44 <Taneb> Pleasantly warm
15:53:47 <Taneb> ~metar EGNT
15:53:58 <Taneb> ...
15:54:06 <Taneb> It was raining at lunchtime, though
15:54:21 <hagb4rd> yes its rainy but warm here too
15:54:34 <hagb4rd> 39°C next week
15:54:44 <Taneb> If hagb4rd is in Prudhoe or something, I swear to god...
15:55:29 <nooodl> i should visit hexham
15:55:31 <nooodl> but then
15:55:35 <nooodl> visit neither of taneb/elliott
15:55:55 <Taneb> Didn't someone do that a couple of years ago
15:55:56 <Taneb> Well
15:56:01 <Taneb> People probably do that all the time
15:56:05 <Taneb> But someone in this channel
15:56:13 <Taneb> oerjan or fizzie or someone
15:56:43 <nooodl> should organize an #esoteric meetup
15:56:53 <nooodl> where nobody actually meets up
15:56:59 <nooodl> they're just all somewhere in hexham
16:01:41 <mnoqy> that sounds dangerous
16:01:51 <mnoqy> what if someone actually meets up
16:01:54 <hagb4rd> what was the command to calculate Celsius to Fahrenheit?
16:02:08 <Taneb> `sanetemp 0
16:02:10 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: sanetemp: not found
16:02:13 <Taneb> Not that
16:02:16 <mnoqy> `frink ?
16:02:29 <hagb4rd> and then?
16:02:38 <mnoqy> `frink 100 celsius -> fahrenheit
16:02:47 <HackEgo> Warning: undefined symbol "celsius". \ Unknown symbol "fahrenheit" \ Warning: undefined symbol "celsius". \ Warning: undefined symbol "fahrenheit". \ Unconvertable expression: \ 100 celsius (undefined symbol) -> fahrenheit (undefined symbol)
16:02:52 <mnoqy> `frink 100 degrees celsius -> fahrenheit
16:02:57 <mnoqy> help
16:02:58 <HackEgo> Warning: undefined symbol "celsius". \ Unknown symbol "fahrenheit" \ Warning: undefined symbol "celsius". \ Warning: undefined symbol "fahrenheit". \ Unconvertable expression: \ 1.7453292519943295767 celsius (undefined symbol) -> fahrenheit (undefined symbol)
16:03:14 <mnoqy> im going to sleep
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16:06:00 <hagb4rd> i wonder: do you english folks use celsius fahrenheit or kelvin or what?
16:07:43 <elliott> i use celsius
16:08:00 <hagb4rd> so, it's common in UK?
16:09:51 <nooodl> > 100 * 9 / 5 + 32
16:09:52 <lambdabot> 212.0
16:09:54 <nooodl> HTH
16:10:00 <coppro> hagb4rd: no, just elliott
16:10:36 <hagb4rd> thx coppro.. i see
16:56:31 <fizzie> They measure in Réaumur.
16:58:01 <fizzie> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20130613-reaumur.jpg -- as seen in a park few days back.
16:59:13 <fizzie> (That was in Switzerland, though almost in Italy.)
16:59:52 <fizzie> (Okay, it's kind of hard to make out the label, but that's what it is.)
17:01:28 <hagb4rd> @google Réaumur
17:01:28 <lambdabot> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C3%A9aumur_scale
17:01:28 <lambdabot> Title: Réaumur scale - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
17:02:37 <fizzie> "Its only modern use is in the measuring of milk temperature in cheese production." Weird stuff.
17:03:21 <hagb4rd> weird indeed
17:04:14 <Taneb> Did we work out the answers to itsy's riddle?
17:04:48 <nooodl> i'd have given it a shot but i didn't have any time
17:07:26 <hagb4rd> @messages
17:09:42 <Taneb> I think I got it but I can't remember how I got it
17:15:06 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
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17:46:15 <Phantom_Hoover> "Steven Moffat and Mark Gatiss imagine Holmes as, well, the Doctor, somehow a central figure in the battle between good and evil even if they can't quite articulate why or how." i am so glad i found this blog
17:48:49 <hagb4rd> Phantom_Hoover: what blog?
17:55:28 <Phantom_Hoover> holy shit, Elementary actually sounds good
17:57:07 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: i keep meaning to watch it if only for the malbolge
17:57:18 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: well, and also to piss off people who complain it's a ripoff of the bbc sherlock
17:57:42 <Phantom_Hoover> it sounds better than bbc sherlock; frankly i'm gobsmacked
17:58:11 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: does it really surprise you that something could be better than a moffat show
17:59:28 <Phantom_Hoover> dude it's an american modernisation of a british classic
17:59:36 <Phantom_Hoover> does that really not fill you with foreboding
18:00:06 <elliott> well, admittedly
18:06:50 <Taneb> I think in early episodes they tried too hard to appeal to the shippers
18:07:13 <Phantom_Hoover> you... watch elementary?
18:07:26 <Taneb> On occasion, not every episode
18:07:27 <Taneb> In fact
18:07:32 <Taneb> About three episodes
18:16:34 -!- disadep has joined.
18:16:41 <disadep> hello
18:17:02 <Taneb> Hi
18:17:06 <Taneb> `welcome disadep
18:17:08 <HackEgo> disadep: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
18:17:29 <disadep> I came here from wiki
18:17:36 <Taneb> :D
18:18:14 -!- FreeFull has quit.
18:18:16 <disadep> I became interested in esoteric languages recently
18:18:45 <Taneb> Oh?
18:20:26 <disadep> I even created one
18:20:36 <disadep> and I was wondering if it's Turing-complete
18:20:51 <disadep> is there a good way to find out if it really is?
18:21:33 -!- epicmonkey has joined.
18:23:18 <Taneb> There's a knack to it
18:23:31 <Taneb> DL?
18:24:00 <disadep> yep
18:24:38 -!- disadep has changed nick to disaderp.
18:25:53 <Taneb> I don't think that is Turing complete. Is the full spec online anywhere?
18:26:16 <disaderp> wait a minute
18:27:19 <elliott> consider http://esolangs.org/wiki/Computational_class#Proofs_of_computational_class
18:27:23 <disaderp> here is the list of avaliable functions: http://pastebin.com/7PMHWQJh
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18:31:35 -!- Bike has joined.
18:33:44 <hagb4rd> disaderp: have you defined any comparison operators?
18:34:16 <disaderp> there is a function Cmp() that compares two ints or two bools
18:34:23 <hagb4rd> ah
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18:37:12 <kmc> http://lists.canonical.org/pipermail/kragen-hacks/2013-June/000552.html
18:38:53 -!- Nisstyre has joined.
18:39:36 <elliott> kmc: disgusting. great
18:47:09 <Taneb> `zalgo "hi"
18:47:40 <HackEgo> No output.
18:47:55 <Taneb> `run echo "hi" | zalgo
18:47:57 <HackEgo> h̞͐iͤ͘
18:48:57 <Taneb> `run echo "hi" | zalgo | zalgo | zalgo
18:49:00 <HackEgo> ḩ̬̰̘̀็i͙̹ͬ̄͝͡
18:59:56 <tswett> A knot diagram can be interpreted as a network of resistors, where each crossing is a resistor with resistance either 1 or -1.
19:00:19 <tswett> Then the Reidemeister moves are all valid ways of rewriting a resistor network.
19:02:48 <tswett> Specifcally: adding a resistor between an existing node and a new node (R1), adding a resistor between a node and itself (R1), replacing a node with three nodes connected by resistors of resistance 1 and -1 in series (R2), adding resistors of resistance 1 and -1 in parallel to any gap (R2), and the wye-delta transform (R3), and the reverse of all these.
19:08:39 <tswett> Conversely, any planar resistor network where resistors have resistance 1 and -1 can be interpreted as a knot diagram.
19:10:24 -!- SirCmpwn has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
19:11:07 <disaderp> g2g
19:11:08 <disaderp> bye
19:11:18 <tswett> Adi(o with acute accent)s.
19:11:26 -!- disaderp has quit (Quit: Page closed).
19:12:16 <tswett> It's not obvious what it means for two resistor networks to be equivalent.
19:16:40 -!- SirCmpwn has joined.
19:17:26 -!- esimmers has joined.
19:17:36 <esimmers> Help Your country get to the top in the virtual world of E-sim. Become a businessman, military leader or a mighty president. Join for FREE now: http://secura.e-sim.org/lan.3355/
19:17:36 -!- esimmers has left.
19:18:01 <Bike> is this channel like a hot hangout now
19:18:15 <kmc> help your country get k-lined
19:19:33 <Taneb> elliott, can you think of anywhere in Hexham that prints designs onto T-shirts?
19:19:40 <elliott> nope
19:19:47 <Taneb> Corbridge?
19:20:00 <elliott> nope
19:20:02 <Taneb> :(
19:20:03 <Bike> isn't there a cheapass way to do it yourself
19:20:15 <Taneb> Bike, you need some fancy paper which I can't find
19:21:37 <Bike> http://www.thomsonlocal.com/Screen%20printers/in/Hexham/ it appears the answer is no
19:21:54 <Bike> according to the almighty
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19:23:03 <fizzie> #esoteric must have finally "made it" to be noticed by freenode spammers.
19:23:27 <Bike> hooray!
19:24:07 <Phantom_Hoover> probably that wsj piece that's coming any day now
19:24:40 <Bike> retroactively attracting spam
19:24:44 <Bike> the wsj's powers are great
19:25:42 <fizzie> @google esoteric wall street journal
19:25:43 <lambdabot> http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204517204577046381261300406.html
19:25:43 <lambdabot> Title: Test for Bonds Backed by Esoteric Assets - WSJ.com
19:26:04 <Bike> nice
19:26:05 <fizzie> This channel: full of assets.
19:26:18 <fizzie> And other things starting with "ass".
19:26:27 <Taneb> assassins
19:26:34 <Taneb> assailants
19:26:40 <fizzie> Assyrians.
19:26:40 <Bike> bro are you esoteric 'cos i have a turkey baster and you have... assets... yes
19:27:23 -!- oerjan has joined.
19:35:09 <Fiora> so um. this really isn't #esoteric material but (I guess C++ is kind of esoteric <.<) if I have an Apple class and a Banana class and both classes contain functions that reference each other, how do I do a forward class declaration so that I don't get undeclared Banana messages?
19:36:09 <elliott> does just "class Banana;" work or is there something more elaborate I'm missing?
19:37:14 <Fiora> oh, maybe that would? I have no idea, I am terrible at this
19:38:08 <elliott> don't worry, nobody has yet figured out how to not be terrible at C++
19:38:43 <Fiora> yay, it works, thanks
19:39:00 <Bike> the programming ethos: just guess and hope it works (it does) (sometimes)
19:39:43 -!- oerjan has set topic: Undeclared Banana messages | http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric | SEUTA KEULAEPEUTEU | nid wyf yn y swyddfa.
19:40:00 <oerjan> is that underhanded thing still ongoing?
19:40:13 <elliott> Fiora: :)
19:41:10 <Bike> oerjan: "the deadline is July 4th"
19:41:34 <elliott> oerjan: imo you should read this homotopy type theory book for me
19:41:46 <Bike> i'm w/ that guy
19:43:13 <oerjan> is homotopy type theory actually consistent the little i've noticed about makes it look like it declares almost everything equal
19:43:22 <oerjan> *about it
19:44:02 <Bike> two equals three, up equals down, anarchy reigns. such is life under homotopy
19:44:18 -!- atehwa_ has changed nick to atehwa.
19:46:21 <elliott> oerjan: it declares identity and equivalence equal
19:46:30 <elliott> oerjan: that is, an isomorphism between A and B implies equality of A and B
19:46:43 <elliott> and the conjecture is that the resulting system is still computable.
19:46:56 <elliott> (where A and B are types, of course)
19:46:57 <oerjan> hm i guess that just means working in a skeleton category, or something
19:46:58 <Bike> conjecture?
19:47:06 <elliott> oerjan: well the idea is to enrichen equality
19:47:09 <elliott> rather than weakening isomorphism
19:47:26 <elliott> Bike: yes, it's not been shown that you can always compute the equality substitutions using the axiom away
19:47:36 <elliott> anyway this book is literally 500 pages.
19:48:20 <Bike> is the axiom called 'away' i'm confused
19:48:25 <Bike> is 500 pages supposed to be a lot
19:48:54 <oerjan> these days i have trouble with 5
19:48:55 <elliott> Bike: as opposed to getting blocked on substitution of an equality using the univalence axiom
19:49:04 <Bike> right so beyond me
19:49:04 <elliott> imo 500 pages is a lot.
19:50:12 <elliott> Bike: i.e., a program can reduce to something like "rewrite foo : ...stuff involving A and its terms... to foo : ...stuff involving B and its terms... by univalence (...isomorphism between A and B...)"
19:50:42 <elliott> and it's not proven that you can always get "past" that rewrite to actually computing foo however it's defined, is my understanding.
19:51:03 <Bike> livin on the edge
19:52:07 <oerjan> my new laptop is too cold for my lap :(
19:52:58 <elliott> oerjan: try compiling ghc hth
19:54:10 <Fiora> civilization 5 is really good at making mine overheat
19:54:16 <Fiora> it's fun too! two birds
19:54:39 <Bike> birds?
19:54:45 <nooodl> elliott: ☺
19:54:55 <elliott> Bike: have you ever killed birds w/ stones
19:55:02 <Bike> no wtf
19:55:06 <Bike> why would id
19:55:12 <elliott> analogies for people who are cruel to animals: imo the best analogies?
19:55:20 <Bike> is this some kind of sicko british schoolboy thing
19:55:25 <elliott> yes, you got it
19:55:31 <elliott> we... play civilisation 5
19:55:35 <elliott> (!!)
19:55:49 <oerjan> well you don't have to use such analogies, there's more than one way to skin a cat
19:55:50 <Bike> disgusting
19:55:54 * Fiora eagerly awaits the new expansion
19:56:02 <nooodl> btw did you know the dutch expression is
19:56:08 <nooodl> "hit two flies with one swat"
19:56:18 <nooodl> it's cute
19:56:30 <oerjan> that's also the norwegian expression hth
19:56:37 <Bike> great, cruelty to birds /and/ bugs
19:56:39 <nooodl> nice
19:56:44 <Bike> assholes
19:57:06 <Bike> 12:56 -!- ELLIOTTCABLE is now known as purr
19:57:23 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, is friendship mouse still about?
19:57:50 <elliott> ph became friendship mouse
19:58:55 <Phantom_Hoover> yes
19:59:01 <Phantom_Hoover> what's this about civ 5
19:59:18 <Bike> it involves killing animals
20:02:41 <Fiora> I don't know ._.
20:03:00 <nooodl> #esoteric civ 5 succession game
20:05:48 <Fiora> oooh, succession games
20:05:54 <Fiora> I remember seeing lots of logs of those for civ 4, they looked really fun
20:06:08 <nooodl> i don't have civ 5 though :(
20:13:30 -!- Bike_ has joined.
20:14:04 <fizzie> But it's only [an amount of money].
20:15:34 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
20:16:42 -!- variable has changed nick to trout.
20:24:10 -!- Bike_ has changed nick to Bike.
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20:45:12 <oerjan> <Bike> what's New Foundations in this analogy <-- uniqueness types hth
20:45:28 <kmc> yeah i considered saying that
20:45:59 <Taneb> Fiora, we do a Dwarf Fortress one
20:46:06 <Taneb> Unless elliott has lost it
20:56:51 -!- itsy has joined.
20:57:40 <kmc> http://www.mushroomexpert.com/lysurus_cruciatus.html squid mushroom
20:59:26 <Phantom_Hoover> how long did you spend weeping with joy before you linked that
20:59:51 <kmc> not long
21:05:46 <Bike> "No, you don't install things by typing 'sudo easy_install thing' into the Python REPL. Not only is that not a console, you're on Windows."
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21:24:29 <Phantom_Hoover> wait
21:24:31 <Phantom_Hoover> what
21:24:45 <Phantom_Hoover> that thing about the wii fit trainer being in the next super smash bros wasn't a joke?
21:24:58 <Bike> No, it's awesome.
21:25:09 <Bike> There's a villager from Animal Crossing too.
21:25:11 <Phantom_Hoover> i don't know what to think any more
21:25:32 <Bike> that they'll go well with game and watch?
21:26:01 <Phantom_Hoover> game and watch was funny because he was a one-off!
21:26:14 <Bike> wasn't he in two games
21:26:28 <Taneb> Yeah, I think he was in Melee and Brawl
21:26:30 <Bike> a TWo Off
21:27:07 <Phantom_Hoover> i guess there was rob as well
21:27:22 <Bike> pew pew
21:27:28 <Phantom_Hoover> but this is just getting silly!
21:27:51 <Bike> dude it's SSB
21:28:01 <Bike> it is the silliest
21:28:07 <Bike> hth
21:28:09 <Phantom_Hoover> it's getting so silly
21:28:11 <Taneb> I was playing Brawl this evening
21:28:20 <Taneb> I completely changed my control scheme for the hell of it
21:28:29 <Fiora> the wii fit trainer is awesome
21:28:31 <Bike> SSB tourney people are hilarious, on that note
21:28:35 <Fiora> everything about her is pretty great
21:28:39 <Bike> fox only, final destination, etc
21:28:45 <Fiora> like, it means that now, super smash brothers has a
21:28:48 <Bike> no
21:28:49 <Bike> stop
21:28:53 * Fiora takes off her sunglasses
21:28:56 <Fiora> strong female character
21:29:01 <Bike> dammit is it even sunny where you are!
21:29:09 <Fiora> ummm it is
21:29:12 <Bike> oh
21:29:17 <elliott> next in super smash bros: a generic mii
21:29:19 <Bike> it's miserable here, i, just kind of assumed
21:29:26 <Fiora> I think they're actually allowing miis in the next version?
21:29:27 <Fiora> not sure
21:29:30 <Taneb> Bike, as someone who's actually participated in a SSBB tournament, I managed to convince them to play random stage
21:29:39 <Taneb> And it pretty much lost me the final
21:29:39 <Bike> did you win
21:29:44 <Bike> loer
21:29:45 <Bike> s
21:29:47 <Bike> whatever
21:29:52 <Taneb> Fiora, what about Samus
21:30:02 <Fiora> it was a joke <.<
21:30:20 <Phantom_Hoover> what about nana
21:30:22 <Taneb> >.>
21:30:27 <Taneb> WHAT ABOUT PIKACHU
21:30:38 <Fiora> but um like. really the wii fit trainer makes gaming dudebros angry so it's probably a good thing
21:31:17 <Taneb> Fiora, are you getting all the "villager will behead you without a second thought" stuff on Tumblr
21:31:31 <Bike> it's such a weird thing to be pissed about, I mean Brawl had a pictochat level
21:31:39 <Bike> super serious
21:31:52 <Phantom_Hoover> idk, it does... feel kind of different?
21:32:17 <Bike> ok
21:32:17 <Fiora> Taneb: all the stuff about the villager is wonderful
21:32:21 <Fiora> especially as a fan of animal crossing
21:32:35 <Bike> is it true that his final smash involves weeding
21:32:35 <Fiora> like oh gosh the digging pits to catch your opponents
21:32:36 <Phantom_Hoover> part of it might be that i never really thought of wii fit as a 'game', more of as an appliance or something
21:32:49 <Fiora> dance dance revolution is a game, right?
21:32:51 <Phantom_Hoover> Fiora, they already had an item for that didn't they
21:32:52 <Bike> unlike pictochat
21:33:39 <Phantom_Hoover> i suppose i give more leeway for stages, then?
21:38:09 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: GOODNIGHT).
21:47:29 <elliott> oerjan:
21:47:41 <elliott> Given this discussion of adding new principles such as univalence, higher inductive types, AC, and LEM, one may wonder whether the resulting system remains consistent. (One of the original virtues of type theory, relative to set theory, was that it can be seen to be consistent by proof-theoretic means).
21:47:48 <elliott> As with any foundational system, consistency is a relative ques- tion: “consistent with respect to what?” The short answer is that all of the constructions and axioms considered in this book have a model in the category of Kan complexes, due to Voevod- sky [KLV12] (see [LS13b] for higher inductive types).
21:47:55 <elliott> Thus, they are known to be consistent relative to ZFC (with as many inaccessible cardinals as we need nested univalent universes). Giving a more traditionally type-theoretic account of this consistency is work in progress (see, e.g., [LH12, BCH13]).
21:55:32 -!- mnoqy has joined.
21:56:16 <elliott> Bike: also, the exact form of what's unknown: "Voevodsky has formulated a precise mathematical conjecture connected to this question of canonicity for type theory extended with the axiom of Univalence: given a closed term of the type of natural numbers, is it always possible to find a numeral and a proof that this term is equal to this numeral, where this proof of equality may itself use the univalence axiom?"
21:56:22 <elliott> that may have got cut off
21:58:54 <mnoqy> it didnt
21:58:58 <elliott> thx
22:00:00 <oerjan> <Bike> it's miserable here, i, just kind of assumed <-- i think Fiora is in california hth
22:02:24 <nooodl> has anyone here used Actual pictochat
22:02:33 <nooodl> it was very good it had some good emoticons
22:02:44 <nooodl> i remember: a happy square, a sad square
22:02:49 <elliott> i have
22:02:55 <mnoqy> one time i used ms comic chat in wine and it barely worked but i cant seem to get it to work anymore
22:03:01 <Fiora> sunny is miserable though :<
22:03:02 <nooodl> but then you could like
22:03:03 <Fiora> I'd rather it be cloudy
22:03:29 <nooodl> type a happy face, press send, then type a sad face, then copy your previous message
22:03:40 <nooodl> and you'd start "layering" emoticons and they'd get Amazing
22:05:53 <mnoqy> that sounds good
22:06:23 <nooodl> does the 3ds even have pictochat ?????
22:06:37 <nooodl> wow no
22:06:53 <Fiora> It has a chat thing where you can draw messages and send them to each other
22:07:03 <nooodl> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/03/Pictochat.png bottom left corner: the happy face
22:07:16 <Fiora> ah, Swapnote
22:07:19 <Fiora> right, that's what it was called
22:08:30 <elliott> nooodl: one person talking to themselves about wikipedia
22:08:32 <elliott> the saddest pictochat
22:08:42 <nooodl> yes :(
22:09:51 <Phantom_Hoover> nooodl, did it have 3d pictochat
22:09:54 <Phantom_Hoover> that should be a thing
22:09:58 <Phantom_Hoover> (sculptochat?)
22:15:03 -!- ais523 has quit.
22:15:41 <Fiora> that sounds like it'd be really hard to use
22:19:44 <elliott> 4d pictochat!
22:19:46 <nooodl> it could be pretty good
22:20:11 <nooodl> drawing on an xy plane, two buttons control the z axis
22:20:38 <Fiora> why do I imagine this would be used almost entirely for sculpting, um. obscene things
22:20:39 <nooodl> and then you'd draw a thing, hold the down button for a while, then draw anothing thing! and one would be behind the other
22:20:43 <elliott> imo 3d pictochat hooked up to a 3d printer
22:20:46 <elliott> and a 3d scanner
22:20:50 <elliott> so you actually sculpt something and send it over
22:21:09 <elliott> and then people us it for guns
22:21:54 <nooodl> RIP
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22:22:12 <Fiora> how about cute things like nendoroids
22:22:14 <Fiora> guns aren't very cute
22:22:25 <Phantom_Hoover> what if you made it like some kind of glassblowing simulator
22:22:32 <Phantom_Hoover> i would pay actual money for that
22:22:35 <elliott> that sounds good
22:22:50 <Phantom_Hoover> also: takes skill to make a penis
22:23:12 <mnoqy> i'm sure they're willing to learn
22:23:33 <elliott> have to study at the academy of penis blowing
22:24:15 <coppro> elliott: I hear it's very popular among young men these days
22:24:50 <mnoqy> glassblowing? huh
22:25:41 <mnoqy> maybe it's good money.....high demand for glass penises????
22:27:17 <elliott> hey everyone has seen glass klein bottles rite
22:27:32 <coppro> I've seen a real one
22:27:38 <coppro> none of this lousy self-intersecting shit
22:28:06 <Phantom_Hoover> did you know that the guy who runs that klein bottle site is also the guy who tracked down that german hacker in the 80s?
22:28:15 <elliott> which german hacker
22:28:20 <Phantom_Hoover> hess
22:29:13 <elliott> well,
22:29:13 <elliott> no
22:31:27 -!- SgeoBot has joined.
22:31:33 <mnoqy> sgeobot?
22:31:36 <nooodl> help
22:31:50 <Phantom_Hoover> we've actually been talking to sgeobot for years
22:37:46 <oerjan> nah i think his new employed just cyborgized him
22:37:51 <oerjan> *employer
22:38:27 <Phantom_Hoover> sgeo's moving up in the world
22:40:13 <oerjan> soon he'll be involved in dramatic battles between good and evil. we are not yet sure on which side.
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22:56:53 <Fiora> Bike: http://www.theonion.com/articles/advanced-alien-civilization-discovers-uninhabitabl,32808/
22:58:50 <Phantom_Hoover> not that old canard
23:00:05 <elliott> Fiora: heh
23:02:17 -!- Koen_ has quit (Quit: The struct held his beloved integer in his strong, protecting arms, his eyes like sapphire orbs staring into her own. "W-will you... Will you union me?").
23:02:34 <Fiora> oh gosh. that quote is still around
23:03:14 <Phantom_Hoover> what do you do if you have brown eyes
23:03:48 <shachaf> `quote Fiora
23:03:50 <HackEgo> 820) <Fiora> omg <Fiora> that JIT is really amazing [...] <Gregor> I hear if you listen carefully to the rustling wind on a warm night with a full moon, you can hear the sound of the JIT building ARM functions. \ 830) <Fiora> usb sushi is dangerous. I think I would try to eat it \ 958) <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo_, are you just trying to post kmcbait..
23:03:59 <shachaf> oh you have a lot of quotes
23:04:36 <Fiora> apparently?
23:04:47 <Phantom_Hoover> "his eyes like normal brown-ish stones"
23:05:05 <Fiora> "her eyes like normal brown-ish stones" // actually me
23:08:44 -!- myname has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
23:10:35 <Bike> elliott: so how's that axiomy thingy work with richardson's theorem; also why is it "numeral"; also there's no chance in hell i'll understand anything
23:11:46 <Bike> Fiora: global warming is just depress ing
23:13:13 -!- noooodl has quit (Quit: noooodl).
23:13:24 <elliott> Bike: i don't see the relation to richardson's theorem
23:13:35 <elliott> richardson's theorem is about decidability
23:13:56 <elliott> it's numeral because expressions of the form e ::= 0 | S e are the normal form values of type nat
23:14:11 <elliott> and you can turn any finite amount of "things computed" into something of type nat
23:14:17 <elliott> so it's a reasonable choice for stating the property
23:14:23 <Bike> well isn't it about proving a closed form is equal to a number
23:15:22 <shachaf> I,I (you can't prove that) (crack isn't fake)
23:15:28 <Bike> ok
23:15:51 <elliott> Bike: well you can prove any term of type nat in normal regular type theory has a numeral and a proof that the term is equal to that numeral
23:16:12 <elliott> Bike: you evaluate the term, it results in a numeral, and then the proof is obvious
23:16:18 <elliott> "it reduces to the numeral; q.e.d."
23:16:50 <Bike> it's sad that i'm trying to figure out if "normal regular" is a technical term
23:16:58 <elliott> it isn't
23:17:02 <Bike> i know
23:17:07 <elliott> hth
23:17:38 <shachaf> you're thinking of standard normal hth
23:19:18 <Fiora> Bike: so like, there's this problem of "given 2 21x21 matrices with integer elements, is it possible to multiply them in some order (with repetition if you want) to achieve the zero matrix"
23:19:37 <Fiora> apparently um. this isn't even like EXPTIME or something. it's undecidable
23:20:02 <Bike> yeah matrix mortality right
23:20:15 <Bike> i thought you only needed 13x13
23:20:20 <Bike> ^rainbow linear operators
23:20:20 <fungot> linear operators
23:20:48 <Fiora> this paper says 7x 3x3 or 2x 21x21
23:20:55 <Bike> hm
23:20:59 <Bike> well, integers make everything harder
23:21:00 <elliott> Fiora: god, i hate magic numbers like that
23:21:01 <Bike> that's just a fact
23:21:06 <elliott> where it all works for a bit and then collapses
23:21:14 <elliott> doesn't even get harder, just gets impossible
23:21:22 <Bike> impossible is harder than possible
23:21:23 <Bike> imo
23:21:54 <elliott> hey was Fiora around when a wall street journalist came here to interview chris pressey
23:21:58 <elliott> never forget.
23:21:59 <Bike> wow there are two other problems about atrices that are undecideable.
23:22:02 <Fiora> O_O?
23:22:07 <elliott> i swear i'm not making that up
23:22:11 <Bike> "Determining whether a finite set of upper triangular 3 × 3 matrices with nonnegative integer entries generates a free semigroup." "Determining whether two finitely generated subsemigroups of M_n(Z) have a common element."
23:22:13 <elliott> he also asked like two questions about hexham
23:22:16 <Bike> subsemigroups, that's just beautiful.
23:22:16 * Fiora has no idea who that is?
23:22:27 <Bike> cpressey is elliott's religion
23:22:28 <Phantom_Hoover> you don't know who chris pressey is...
23:22:29 <Fiora> geez "post correspondence problem"
23:22:32 <Bike> i think he founded the site or whatever
23:22:33 <elliott> chris pressey is the guy who made befunge and lots of other esoteric languages, he used to be here a lot but now he isn't
23:22:37 <elliott> but he came back to do this interview
23:22:41 <Phantom_Hoover> `? cpressey
23:22:41 <Bike> Fiora: that's named after Post! it's not to do with letters i hate that
23:22:43 <HackEgo> cpressey invented the esolang, the pipe cleaner and the electrical mouse.
23:23:02 <Bike> Fiora: btw Post only had one arm. i like pointing this out because it's an odd little thing
23:23:06 <Fiora> @_@
23:23:07 <elliott> Bike: he didn't start the wiki or anything (esolangs are way older than the wiki)
23:23:16 <Fiora> ohhhh. I think this problem makes sense now
23:23:16 <Bike> (i know that much)
23:23:19 <elliott> but he popularised the term "esoteric" as it pertains to computing I believe
23:23:24 <Fiora> it can't be EXPTIME because the lists on either side can grow without bound
23:23:33 <Fiora> gosh that is an evil problem
23:23:52 <Bike> i think my favorite undecideable problem is just the word problem for groups
23:23:57 <Bike> nice'n'easy to understand
23:24:03 <Fiora> I guess it kind of intuitively makes sense that the matrix problem is kind of like the post corresopndance one
23:24:14 <elliott> Bike: mine is equality of functions
23:24:14 <Bike> "matrices are weird, and Post was weird, so..."
23:24:21 <Phantom_Hoover> what's the word problem again
23:24:21 <Bike> elliott: too obvious
23:24:28 <elliott> Bike: not very obvious!
23:24:33 <elliott> people think you can compare functions all the time
23:24:34 <Fiora> Bike: ... easy? >_<
23:24:57 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: figuring out if two expressions of group operations represent the same element
23:25:20 <Bike> (obviously it's decideable for some groups)
23:25:35 <Bike> Fiora: what can i say i like groups
23:25:38 <Fiora> "two expressions of group operations" o_O
23:25:41 <Phantom_Hoover> finite groups
23:25:46 <Phantom_Hoover> for instance
23:25:53 <Phantom_Hoover> my favourite is that one with matrices
23:26:23 <Phantom_Hoover> "The mortal matrix problem: determining, given a finite set of n n matrices with integer entries, whether they can be multiplied in some order, possibly with repetition, to yield the zero matrix."
23:26:26 <elliott> you could say Bike is a groupie
23:26:41 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: the one that started this conversation
23:26:46 <Phantom_Hoover> oh
23:26:49 <Fiora> sorry I guess I don't really get the group thing
23:26:53 <Phantom_Hoover> why would anyone suggest anything else then
23:27:18 <Bike> Fiora: like, does a*b*c = b*a*c or somethin
23:27:40 <kmc> Fiora: so you can describe a group as a set of generating elements + a set of relations that can simplify expressions
23:27:43 <kmc> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presentation_of_a_group
23:27:50 <Fiora> Bike: wait, why would that be undecideable
23:27:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Fiora, it's not, for finite groups
23:28:14 <Bike> Fiora: because everything is terrible.
23:28:16 <Phantom_Hoover> and a bunch of other ones
23:28:17 <kmc> and so the word problem is like 'can we transform this word into that word using these relations'
23:28:23 <kmc> or transform them both into the same word, anyway
23:28:32 * Fiora is completely lost
23:29:06 <Bike> it's ok
23:29:15 <Bike> there are like a billion undecideable problems to choose from
23:29:24 <elliott> the idea is that you can't do it for all groups ever (but it might be easy to do it for a particular group)
23:29:29 <elliott> n.b. i don't really undersatnd the word problem either
23:29:37 <Phantom_Hoover> i note that all the groups with undecidable word problems wp cites seem to be only remarkable for having unsolvable word problems
23:29:49 <Bike> well yeah
23:30:09 <Bike> how often do you construct a set of matrices you can't multiplicate together
23:30:22 <elliott> hmm, is the mortal matrix thing just a special case of the word problem???
23:30:29 <mnoqy> no
23:30:38 <elliott> yeah i guess not
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23:31:14 <Fiora> http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/5/3/a/53add5b1c27847ffeeee892cfedb4984.png o____o
23:31:25 <Bike> Fiora: welcome 2 math
23:31:31 <Phantom_Hoover> yeah, that's what i was saying
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23:32:46 <mnoqy> what a silly looking presentation
23:33:02 <shachaf> group theory isn't math hth
23:33:03 <Bike> wait, if you have your matrices can't you make a group with them as the generatotrs
23:33:21 <mnoqy> Bike: ?????????
23:33:42 <Bike> is that confusing
23:33:44 <mnoqy> you can take the free group over a set of matrices but that's just stupid
23:33:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Bike, no
23:33:50 <mnoqy> because youre not using the matrices at all
23:33:56 <Phantom_Hoover> because they're not necessarily invertible
23:33:58 <SgeoBot> >> probe money
23:33:58 <SgeoBot> *** ERROR
23:33:58 <SgeoBot> ** Script error: money has no value
23:34:04 <shachaf> mnoqy: don't you tell me my free groups are stupid!!
23:34:06 <Phantom_Hoover> what
23:34:17 <SgeoBot> (After I poked fun at $6 / $2 being $3)
23:34:25 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: o rite
23:34:47 <Bike> if the matrices are invertible can you solve the mortality problem
23:35:02 <mnoqy> yes: "theres no solution"
23:35:08 <mnoqy> bc invertible matrices never multiply to 0
23:35:27 <Bike> cool
23:36:58 <shachaf> what kind of algebraic structure do yo uneed to solve the morality problem
23:37:19 <Bike> epigenetics
23:47:10 <oerjan> fancy
23:48:26 <shachaf> Track the status of your shipments, nickname your packages, create a personal watch list, and filter shipments to see the details you want. It’s an all-new tracking experience.
23:48:57 <kmc> does it celebrate anything
23:49:19 <Bike> celebrates shipmanship
23:49:20 <oerjan> trackmanship
23:49:27 <shachaf> not sure
23:50:12 <Fiora> Ship name: Rosemary Watchlist: Yes Ship status: Canon
23:50:27 <shachaf> how many canon are on that ship
23:50:51 <shachaf> fedex called me to say i'd have to be there for signing for a thing but i could change things via the tracking number
23:50:52 <Fiora> Ship contents: Kanaya Maryam, Rose LaLonde Status: Drunk
23:51:04 <shachaf> but a couple of the tracking number digits were cut off by bad reception or something
23:51:15 <shachaf> oh, that
23:51:42 <mnoqy> oh, that
23:51:46 <Bike> wow, kmc, that putin story
23:51:57 <elliott> wait what putin story
23:52:46 <Phantom_Hoover> he started his own party apparently
23:52:55 <Bike> not that one
23:52:57 <kmc> http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/06/13/vladimir-putin-defends-the-u-s-on-spying-programs-drones-and-occupy-wall-street/
23:53:04 <Bike> that one
23:54:02 <Bike> news on twitter is weird. guy says WH announcement re: syria is unimportant compared to the jihad
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23:54:44 <elliott> what announcement did i miss
23:54:48 <Fiora> that sounds like wonderful marketing material.
23:54:50 <kmc> U.S. to increase 'scope and scale' of aid to rebels
23:54:52 <Fiora> "PRISM: endorsed by putin"
23:55:15 <kmc> it's putin-tastic
23:55:20 <Bike> elliott: the white house said they'd step up aid, and also a bunch of important clerics declared jihad on the syrian government.
23:56:39 <Phantom_Hoover> Fiora, i wonder if this is some brilliant gambit by putin
23:57:42 <elliott> does he need gambits
23:57:43 <Bike> "ha HA! now the government will be forced to roll back the police state from Russian levels! IT WILL BE THEIR DOOM!"
23:57:49 <Bike> n.b. i assume putin is a comic book villain
23:57:59 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, maybe?
23:58:08 <elliott> well can't he pretty much do whatever the hell he likes
23:58:12 <kmc> since when does america care what foreigners think of our government
23:58:38 <Bike> since we're being praised by the wrong foreigners
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