00:00:05 Image formats tend to be designed in a way I can only describe as "malicious". 00:01:01 parsers in general are hard to get right 00:01:18 pikhq: Well, some of them are, anyways. There might be better ones too, possibly. 00:01:19 And DEFLATE is terribad. 00:01:22 especially when you're writing them in fucking C 00:01:34 yess. 00:01:38 shachaf: what's bad about your gif thing? 00:02:11 The language of all gifs, for instance, is likely context-sensitive, and I'm sure many other formats are Turing-complete. 00:02:13 Especially as used in PNG. Gotta love using multiple endiannesses! 00:02:28 Hello there, Microsoft Office macros 00:02:29 agh. 00:02:30 And two checksums. (sigh) 00:03:23 mmmmm i have to make an xml based bitmap image format 00:03:38 nooodl_: I think someone already did that. 00:03:49 00:03:55 And shit, even BMP is friggin' awful. 00:04:27 pbm: the only good image file format 00:04:39 Yup. 00:04:42 BMP is pretty straightforward, if you use it in the way you'd expect 00:04:53 namely, standing on your head. 00:04:58 Yes, I looked and I can see it isn't very good, and it could be improved. PBM is pretty good if you don't need compressed, but even with PBM, it uses ASCII numbers even when using binary PBMs, which doesn't make a lot of sense. 00:05:12 er, also without any extensions or weird flags, etc. 00:05:14 what about xbm!! 00:05:26 kmc: well, it's mostly just really slow and stupid about things 00:05:41 fizzie, ping 00:05:41 i bet it could be improved by ""orders of magnitude" 00:05:41 anyway, the best lossy formats involve lots of analysis of human vision. 00:05:44 wow xbm is source that's right 00:05:46 imo that rules 00:05:48 zzo38: Yeah, I'm not too fond of that bit. Though it still beats most other stuff a lot. 00:06:02 -!- katla has quit (Quit: katla has no reason). 00:06:12 i'd never use binary pbms 00:06:17 pikhq: Yes, I agree. 00:06:28 Gracenotes: BMP is practically made of weird features. 00:06:40 Text PBM format can be processed by TeX macros, though. 00:06:40 pbm has always been "that easily readable/writable ascii image file format" for me 00:06:57 So I was trying to make a panorama, when somehow THIS happened: http://db.tt/LhfMRoNz 00:07:00 nooodl_: Binary PBM is equally easy to read/write FWIW. 00:07:06 not by humans 00:07:07 I think it took all images and put them on top of each other 00:07:12 Maybe 00:07:12 Well no. 00:07:38 It looks surrealistic 00:08:00 obligatory, also, http://notanumber.net/archives/54/underhanded-c-the-leaky-redaction 00:08:02 binary pbm is the best 00:08:21 fizzie, I can't get that panorama to render properly, it looks just fine in hugin's preview window. 00:08:28 that's a great panorama 00:09:09 Vorpal: http://img.funtasticus.com/2008/nov/050813Panorama/Bad%20Panorama%201.jpg you've seen the panoramas of hell i hope 00:09:27 sec 00:09:32 ouch 00:09:39 http://img.funtasticus.com/2008/nov/050813Panorama/Bad%20Panorama%2011.jpg ready to run 00:09:51 nice 00:10:11 and of course the classic http://img.funtasticus.com/2008/nov/050813Panorama/Bad%20Panorama%206.jpg doge 00:10:18 Bike, Those things can at least be fixed by masking out one version. 00:11:32 i love doge 00:11:48 Bike, in my case it is just the program going crazy. It looks perfect in the preview window. And it in the remapped images. But in the final blended result it just discards the position information it seems 00:11:54 never had that happen before 00:11:57 really really strange 00:12:24 http://i.imgur.com/0I1KrqT.png :| 00:12:57 Bike, also that "mountain" in my picture doesn't exist 00:13:26 I THINK it may be part of the ground from the 360 spherical panorama 00:13:36 But it doesn't quite match the texture 00:14:45 Also the flag is mirrored, it was blowing the other way in the source image... 00:15:23 Sgeo_: No `olist today so far. 00:16:30 Hmmm.... I actually upgraded the panorama program recently. Maybe that broke it. Worth trying on a computer that still has an older version. Except that computer doesn't have nearly enough RAM to deal with this project... 00:17:09 I give up, I'll try something else tomorrow, good night 00:17:54 katla left again :( 00:17:59 has no reason 00:18:18 do any of us have reason 00:18:29 not I, certainly 00:18:54 oddly enough, in many latin languages, the expression "to have reason" is "to be right" 00:19:10 that's odd? 00:19:15 also does that mean romance languages or what 00:19:22 yes, that's what I meant 00:19:26 today my reason is fava beans 00:19:32 k 00:19:45 I think it's odd, yeah 00:19:51 mainly on The Internet i've gotten used to people using "rational" to mean "whatever i, the speaker, am thinking" 00:20:12 the other use of rational on the internet 00:20:16 is rationale 00:20:22 but misspelled 00:21:47 rational is from first principles, rather than just from assumptions 00:21:58 first principles are also from assumptions. 00:21:58 I,I from first assumptions 00:22:02 yeah yeah 00:24:30 rational means acting as though maximizing an unbiased estimate of some function obeying the axioms of a utility function 00:24:33 clearly 00:25:05 I thought rational meant it could be expressed as p/q, where p and q are integers 00:25:38 5/0. yo. 00:25:44 and q isn't zero >_< 00:26:08 oh that reminds me, i was thinking about the polynomial thing again (without checking knuth, just, my own silly thinking) 00:26:09 imo there's nothing very rational about the number 2/3 00:26:34 you're wrong 00:26:51 Seems like a ratio to me. 00:26:56 figured something easy but kinda cool, if you want to evaluate say x² + 2x + 1 you can rewrite that as (x+1)², so one multiplication and one add instead of two adds and two multiplications 00:27:05 unfortunately that involves rootfinding... 00:27:44 algebraic numbers are roots, man. 00:27:52 for sure 00:28:46 yeah but finding them is annoying and all. 00:28:56 tied up mathematics for like. three hundred years. 00:29:06 also they're kind of rubbish to represent with floats anyway so that's probably not good. 00:29:09 also sometimes they're imaginary. 00:29:17 I guess the problem is kind of complex 00:29:23 no 00:29:58 Floats are generally rubbish though. 00:30:27 Actually, really, representing floats base 10 is rubbish. 00:30:51 hmm in unary you only have rational numbers even if you invent a "." equivalent 00:30:52 er, who does that. 00:31:11 Bike: Most languages use base 10 for float literals. 00:31:21 Oh. Right. I was thinking for coomputation. 00:31:22 "0.1" is a very, very misleading literal. 00:31:30 0.5 less so 00:31:32 it's pretty hilarious how hard reading floats is, yeah. 00:31:58 let's use CReals for everything 00:32:08 @quote CReal 00:32:08 CReal says: cos(2/3*pi) :: CReal 00:32:16 * pikhq prefers hex floats 00:32:19 huh 00:32:22 Just on principle. 00:32:22 > cos(2/3*pi) :: CReal 00:32:23 -0.5 00:32:24 well, for rootfinding it would be easier to just use algebraics. 00:32:56 > cos(1/3*pi) :: CReal 00:32:57 0.5 00:33:16 "easier" 00:34:44 other rootfinding could happen too though. like you can turn any (>deg1) polynomial into a homogenuous poly of the same degree but you need to know its roots. also it's probably pointless and i'm pointless. 00:35:16 wait, not homogenouous. ugh. 00:35:18 ououououous 00:35:48 yuouou just need to get back to your roots 00:47:53 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:55:47 -!- Koen_ has quit (Quit: The struct held his beloved integer in his strong, protecting arms, his eyes like sapphire orbs staring into her own. "W-will you... Will you union me?"). 00:59:07 -!- Nisstyre has joined. 01:03:52 > 1000/51 01:03:54 19.607843137254903 01:12:32 -!- madbr has joined. 01:14:12 -!- sprocklem has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:20:50 this book cites "Darwin 1859" and "Darwin 1872". 01:21:06 isn't that... normally how you cite people 01:21:31 yeah but it's darwin. 01:21:42 origin o' species 01:23:41 and also http://www.gutenberg.org/files/1227/1227-h/images/fig18.jpg 01:23:55 Fuck Samba 01:24:00 This should really not be difficult 01:25:11 that chimp doesn't look disappointed and sulky 01:25:23 it looks... parochial 01:25:49 -!- oerjan has joined. 01:26:57 i'm not sure what 'parochial' means in the context of chimp lips, but yeah i don't see how it's sulky either. 01:27:27 * oerjan is tempted to `addquote that. 01:28:10 except the last part sort of doesn't work. 01:34:08 -!- Bike_ has joined. 01:36:19 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 01:37:35 1F0AC PLAYING CARD KNIGHT OF SPADES [] <-- hm that's apparently in tarot decks... 01:38:08 to a norwegian this is extra confusing since en:jack =no:knekt, usually... 01:38:20 which is obviously cognate to knight 01:40:44 @tell Taneb Clearly electromagnetism is a sham and radios are really powered by wights. 01:40:45 Consider it noted. 01:44:31 https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/nibling <-- this is the second time in my life i see this word, and the first time was just days ago. 01:46:55 hm i think it was in a r/askhistory discussion about what would happen if a king (of england, mostly) was homosexual. 01:47:42 *an 01:47:43 -!- Bike_ has changed nick to Bike. 01:48:00 assuming he avoided hot pokers and stuff 01:51:22 there seem to be multiple historical cases? 01:51:33 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_VI_and_I "Throughout his life James had close relationships with male courtiers, which has caused debate among historians about their nature." 01:51:39 yeah i as gonna say, a secret gay noble is not really shocking 01:51:40 "... his sexuality has long been a matter of debate. He clearly preferred the company of handsome young men. The evidence of his correspondence and contemporary accounts have led some historians to conclude that the king was homosexual or bisexual." 01:52:02 wow, he was james six and james one at the same time. 01:52:05 that's pretty artful. 01:54:50 -!- mnoqy has quit (Quit: hello). 01:55:00 http://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/1hsfjs/what_is_the_protocol_for_if_an_heir_to_the/ it was 01:56:53 i don't know why succession is an issue, plenty of monarchs have died without issue 01:57:00 like.... james i's predecessor elizabeth................. 01:57:12 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_II_of_England 01:57:22 "While Edward fathered at least five children by two women, he was rumoured to have been bisexual. His inability to deny even the most grandiose favours to his unpopular male favourites (first a Gascon knight named Piers Gaveston, later a young English lord named Hugh Despenser) led to constant political unrest and his eventual deposition." 01:58:20 the son of william the conquerer was apparently gay too 01:58:40 oh, and Richard the Lionheart 01:58:44 -!- Bike_ has joined. 01:58:48 "Is it actually healthier to go braless?" r/askscience's biology is a bit disappointing 01:58:54 with a name like hugh despenser you cannot go wrong 01:58:57 -!- Bike has quit (Disconnected by services). 01:59:02 -!- Bike_ has changed nick to Bike. 02:00:35 "If you jumped from the golden gate bridge and then changed your mind, would trying to break the surface tension before landing be of any use?" ggggh 02:00:55 isn't that a pretty common one 02:01:13 honestly I'd be vaguely curious about the bra one but reddit 02:01:34 Bike: "no" hth 02:01:46 there are 3 replies and one of them is just explaining that the question is confused 02:01:56 er, *the best one 02:02:38 Fiora: try wearing a unibra for a while and see which breast is healthier afterwards, obviously 02:02:51 that sounds monumentally uncomfortable 02:03:10 we must make sacrifices for science, and by we i mean you 02:03:11 for a minute i thought that was a thing 02:03:20 i guess it'd be like a giant eyepatch 02:03:28 I don't think that can possibly work 02:03:35 we must find a way 02:03:50 i'm thinking sharpened hooks 02:04:02 * Fiora winces 02:04:20 i'm not sure hooks have ever gone well in clothing 02:04:29 haven't you ever seen Hellraiser 02:04:31 no fashion sense, imo 02:04:40 i have not seen hellraiser 02:04:55 also: what about captain hook, he seemed to pull it off 02:05:27 hands aren't clothes! 02:05:35 or bras 02:05:47 also the aim here is science, not fashion 02:06:20 fashion is a sciencne! 02:06:26 oerjan: The first time I saw it was also days ago. 02:06:30 the science... of beauty! 02:06:40 the science... of not jamming hooks into yourself! 02:06:42 * Fiora waves her hair, holds up a redken shampoo bottle 02:06:43 oerjan: Someone sent me a link. I assume the occurrences are related. 02:06:57 * Bike waves his hair, holds up bloodied surgical implements 02:07:09 er, *the best one <-- let me guess, that one has already been deleted? 02:09:18 shachaf: maybe there's a source somewhere 02:10:38 oerjan: The person who mentioned it to me linked to http://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/1hgkwp/til_the_plural_genderneutral_term_for_nieces_and/ 02:10:45 oerjan: I assume it's all related to that. 02:11:06 yay, research! 02:11:25 Half a cheer for oerjan! Hip hip -- hoo! 02:11:43 hoo, the new hip 02:12:11 * Bike looks at TIL, finds annoying psychologytoday link half a page down 02:13:00 Bike: why would you look at reddit "r u crazy" 02:14:25 hey r/askhistory is nice. and addictive. 02:15:14 reddit.com/r/u/crazy/ 02:16:24 http://www.reddit.com/user/crazy is sadly empty. but existing. 02:16:25 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:18:55 http://www.reddit.com/r/crazy looks slightly healthier. 02:20:13 -!- nooodl_ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 02:27:31 shachaf: also, the niblings thread, not a linguist in the bunch 02:27:50 why would you read the thread hth 02:28:00 Gracenotes: today the cookie place had a short line so i went there 02:28:32 why would you ask a rhetoric question hth 02:28:44 Gracenotes: that's r/todayilearned/ not a science subreddit hth 02:28:47 the ridiculous ice cream place? 02:28:50 yes 02:29:16 was it super? 02:29:46 it was enjoyable but not stand-in-line-for-half-an-hour good 02:30:07 maybe you'd think it was better is you stood in line for half an hour 02:30:10 *if 02:30:20 green mouse and telephone ice cream 02:31:03 Gracenotes: probably 02:31:19 -!- scyrmion has joined. 02:31:42 you have to stand in line until you're really hungry, you see 02:32:26 `relcome scyrmion 02:32:29 scyrmion: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) 02:32:38 hello. 02:32:44 hi scyrmion 02:32:47 welcome home 02:32:53 I wandered in from the wiki. 02:33:22 me too 02:33:31 then I ended up hosting it :( 02:34:23 ugh that always happens 02:35:36 kmc: what was the thing people don't like in Rust? 02:36:00 I'm trying to experement with some ideas of compression algorithms that search for a program that is able to produce the original output. 02:36:02 lots of things 02:36:06 can you be more specific 02:36:11 Gracenotes: the thing where all your iron disintegrates after a while 02:36:14 that thing is p. bad 02:36:15 about memory management 02:36:18 and boxes 02:36:24 moo 02:36:26 rust is all about the boxes 02:36:41 copumpkin: imo be more dutch hth 02:36:48 well they're getting rid of managed mutable boxes maybe 02:36:57 that's the one place where the borrow checker has a run-time check 02:37:06 boo 02:37:10 thx 02:37:17 is that what cows say in .nl 02:37:25 boo.nl 02:37:28 kmc: what is the difference between @ pointers and managed mutable boxes? 02:37:37 it's @ versus @mut 02:37:52 why did they name those after an OS 02:37:59 oh, that sounds freaky 02:38:26 kmc: are they going to get rid of @ 02:38:37 don't think so, blog post notwithstanding 02:38:53 if so how will @fn works 02:39:09 boo.ts 02:39:19 the funny thing is @ isn't garbage collected yet, just refcounted, and there's already a library type Rc that is refcounted and way faster 02:39:32 Wait, there's no actual GC? 02:39:53 correct; if you have cycles they don't go away until the thread ends 02:40:07 -!- Sgeo has joined. 02:40:23 shachaf: I'm told that @ and @fn don't have much in common implementation-wise; similarly ~ and ~fn and ~[] 02:40:34 rust is a bit 02:40:35 "weird" 02:40:42 it seems like all of rust's boxes and things is a lot to keep in mind 02:40:49 also there are secretly two kinds of ~: those which point to managed boxes somewhere and those which don't 02:40:52 shachaf: yup 02:41:04 are they sure firefox can't deal with being fully GC'd 02:41:10 what would you know, there is no .ts domain 02:41:12 there are some pretty wacky advanced GCs 02:41:42 if your ~ contains managed stuff then it has a header which links it into a list of all managed stuff, for use by the thread-exit cycle collector (?) 02:41:53 but if it doesn't then it has no header (as of, like, today) 02:41:55 (that's the reason rust has all this memory stuff right) 02:42:07 hmm 02:42:08 elliott: i don't know man 02:42:46 you're meant to be the expert! 02:43:03 elliott: well i'm kind of glad someoneis doing "all this memory stuff" 02:43:15 seems like it has its place, whether or not firefox is that place 02:43:44 its place is: outside of my head 02:43:55 shachaf: yeah 02:44:28 it's kind of odd how a lot of languages are "all about things that" look like existentials, but don't really have actual existentials 02:44:44 depending on who you ask Servo is either "definitely going to be the new browser one day" or "a research platform for playing around with different ideas" 02:45:06 as in struct Foo { x: A, f: fn(y: A) -> int } with A existential instead of universal 02:45:19 i wonder if they will rebrand 02:46:09 ? 02:46:09 `seen ion 02:46:13 2013-07-08 21:17:02: > unwords . map join . sequence $ [["FI", "RAMA"], ["ZZ"], ["IE", "OTTI"]] 02:46:27 feature request: add "so and so many times ago" to `seen 02:46:46 like, i've seen him four thousand times? 02:47:02 ago 02:47:05 kmc: who was the ? to 02:47:09 as in 02:47:10 you re: rebrand 02:47:11 hourz 02:47:18 kmc: like if servo ever becomes the mozilla browser 02:47:24 shouldn't be that hard, just subtract timestamps 02:47:30 would they call it firefox or not (of course nobody knows) 02:47:34 you mean will they call the browser "servo" 02:47:35 yeah probably not 02:47:44 will they call servo gecko 02:47:46 it's replacing "gecko" sort of 02:47:48 right 02:47:50 probably not 02:48:02 will they just give up and use webkit 02:48:07 they won't call it servo surely 02:48:12 servo is architecturally very different from gecko, even aside from being in a different language 02:48:16 but they might call it mozilla shinynewbrowser or whatever 02:48:22 shachaf: "webkit will outlive the human race" 02:48:27 i say that about C sometimes 02:48:54 mozilla softkitten 02:49:06 i can't wait for programming to be three hundred years old so people can read the equivalent of alien victorian biology books 02:49:06 +kmc: what does that mean? The singularity will be in C? 02:49:35 possibly 02:49:39 Mozilla is developing the Browser of Theseus 02:49:47 Bike: but today nobody reads the books written even 30 years ago 02:49:52 the singularity will be in notareallanguagese 02:49:59 the singularity will not be televised 02:50:06 kmc: well when i say "people" i mean weird people like me 02:50:12 i am actually reading a thirty year old book right now. 02:50:38 or knuth. knuth is also pretty weird 02:51:36 and i read biology books old enough to predate evolutionary theory, and they're great. 02:52:30 Rust looks highly complicated, like it was a very nice language and then making it consistent/useful involved making an exception somewhere, then making an exception within that, etc. 02:52:30 there are too many languages in the wiki that only print "Hello world!"... and a large obsession with the 99 bottles of beer lyrics. 02:52:33 ur pretty weird imo 02:52:43 yus. 02:53:08 Or maybe I'm just trying too hard to read into its design philosophy. nicer than C++, anyweh. 02:53:42 > 11 Appendix: Rationales and design tradeoffs 02:53:43 > TODO. 02:54:18 nice 02:54:19 #1 problem with rust is still those dang braces, sorry 02:54:55 #1 problem with rust is h8rs 02:55:01 h8rs lyk u 02:56:04 Gracenotes: yeah that's the best 02:56:10 why can't everyone just get along and sing songs together and program COBOL 02:56:28 Gracenotes: yes, it does have a bit of that "everything stuck together just so bursting at the seams" feel, like C++, but better 02:57:16 providing fine-grained control of allocation in a memory-safe way is *hard* 02:57:20 > rust run h8.rs 02:57:36 kmc: imo get :t into the repl hth 02:57:42 afaik Rust is the only language even attempting it that has even a chance of being more than an academic project 02:57:48 also make the repl fast instead of slow :'( 02:57:50 yeah 02:57:57 everyone knows the repl sucks ok 02:58:04 on my machine it just crashes 02:58:13 haha. 02:58:24 make an IRC bot that runs arbitrary Rust code. that's the fastest way to mainstream adoption. 02:58:24 there are supposed to be some recent improvements to LLVM's JIT that will help? 02:58:28 Gracenotes: they have that 02:58:35 why isn't it here? 02:58:38 in #rust on irc.mozilla.org 02:58:48 -!- sacre has quit (Quit: sacre). 02:59:07 LLVM has a JIT? 02:59:08 kmc: But I haven't seen any Fibonacci sequences in #rust. 02:59:10 yes 02:59:13 not a fancy one 02:59:15 The bot is clearly defective. 02:59:20 I remember I made the first bot that ran (somewhat) arbitrary Go code 02:59:23 i think it just compiles and loads your code in a big block 02:59:27 Then I stopped doing anything with Go ever 02:59:30 not like tracing and optimizing it 02:59:38 so it's slow to start up *and* produces slow code 02:59:45 the best of both worlds 02:59:51 part of the point of tracing JITs isn't just that they produce good code but they start up quickly 03:00:06 eh 03:00:08 EH 03:00:28 i think there is room in the world for a tracing jit that produces great code using all sorts of runtime information but starts up slowly 03:00:36 yes 03:00:40 that's called java -server 03:00:42 i think 03:00:53 i hear hotspot is "p. crazy" 03:00:56 yup 03:01:40 "Always one more than you can handle," the water replied. "That's standard operating procedure." 03:02:01 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_killer_whale 03:02:14 that's "p. crassidens" if you ask me 03:02:17 Gracenotes: That sounds like an exciting logic! 03:02:32 data Bool = True | False | FalseKillerWhale 03:02:33 Gracenotes: ... 03:02:37 Gracenotes: can I kick you for that. 03:02:46 i did a report on false killer whales in middle school! 03:02:49 kick yes, kickban no. 03:02:52 deal 03:02:54 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o elliott. 03:02:55 so, as a p. crassidens expert, yes you can kick Gracenotes for that 03:02:57 -!- elliott has kicked Gracenotes Gracenotes. 03:02:58 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 03:02:59 -!- elliott has set channel mode: -o elliott. 03:03:08 wow it ruins my immersion when you join before I can even deop 03:03:11 :'| 03:03:19 I was "into it" 03:03:20 elliott is abusing his op powers 03:03:32 uh I got consent. 03:03:39 no you didn't 03:03:52 well, i didn't read it as such 03:03:58 04:02:49 kick yes, kickban no. 03:04:00 * Gracenotes is making some soup later. you can all have it if you come by. 03:04:07 man it must be depressing to be a species literally named for not being some other species 03:04:09 what kind of soup 03:04:20 what kinda aspirations can a false killer whale have 03:04:26 true killer whale 03:04:27 hth 03:04:30 elliott: at least their name is like, unrepetitive, mister homo sapiens sapiens 03:04:37 like, uh, sausage, jalapenos, something. probably spinach and shallots too. 03:04:44 sounds good. 03:04:47 oh, not even vegetarian soup 03:04:57 sounds great 03:04:58 what kinda sausage 03:05:09