←2013-07-17 2013-07-18 2013-07-19→ ↑2013 ↑all
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02:42:13 <Sgeo> HexChat has taken to crashing for no reasons
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03:10:48 <zzo38> Cheetos with chopstick seem like it could be good idea certainly.
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03:55:12 <Sgeo> I blame HexChat
03:59:27 <zzo38> Of what?
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04:52:56 <shachaf> HexChat of Hexham.
05:00:14 <zzo38> No, I mean what you blame them of?
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05:05:59 <zzo38> What is the dictionary coder which is using a fixed dictionary?
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05:35:41 <zzo38> If using a static dictionary with overlapping strings, would it help to precompute some table involving the overlapping information?
05:36:47 <Bike> help what
05:50:31 <zzo38> Is it not understandable?
05:51:11 <Bike> I mean, what is it you want to help.
05:52:19 <zzo38> O, maybe I am unclear.
05:52:27 <zzo38> I mean to help the encoding algorithm.
05:53:44 <zzo38> Actually, I guess a simpler way, but maybe a slightless compression, would be to make the order of how long each one is and then search and replace starting with the longest entries.
05:54:21 <zzo38> In the specific case I am using it is Z-machine, so it isn't actually that simple, although that might be good enough.
05:57:54 <kmc> oh i too interpreted what Bike said as "help, what"
05:58:17 <shachaf> i, too
05:58:18 <Bike> understandable
05:58:34 <kmc> i, even i, can play dead
05:59:19 <zzo38> kmc: The response is the same either way, as it turns out, it means what I wrote isn't understandable
05:59:32 <Fiora> Bike: http://voyager.jpl.nasa.gov/where/ this is kind of cool
05:59:37 <shachaf> kmc: somehow still finding sand in my shoe
05:59:42 <kmc> haha yeah
05:59:46 <shachaf> kmc: or, rather, between my toes, when i put the shoe on
05:59:48 <kmc> still finding sand in my bed
05:59:58 <Fiora> did you two go to the beach?
06:00:04 <kmc> yep
06:01:45 <Fiora> #esandteric
06:02:07 <Bike> Fiora: imagining a receptionist at the JPL whose job is to point very precisely at where the probe is.
06:02:58 <Fiora> XD
06:03:49 <Bike> 34 and a half light-hours, huh. wonder if we'll ever pass that.
06:05:01 <Fiora> well, like, the probe passes the record every second, doesn't it?
06:05:46 <Bike> a different probe, i meant :/
06:05:58 <Fiora> oh, probably New Horizons?
06:06:23 <Fiora> that one's on an escape trajectory too
06:06:28 <Fiora> though I think it'll be a bit slow
06:06:36 <kmc> oh I thought you meant whether humans will ever get that far from earth
06:06:38 <Fiora> *slower
06:06:54 <Bike> well, i guess that's a question too
06:06:56 <Bike> rather farther off though
06:07:22 <Fiora> yeah, that one in particular is probably far :/ since there'd be no point in sending humans that far unless like, you're going to another star system
06:07:25 <zzo38> kmc: If you do, try to make sure not to damage things too much in other solar systems and even in the stars themself
06:07:35 <kmc> ok
06:07:37 <zzo38> But it would probably take too long to get there anyways.
06:07:38 <kmc> will do
06:07:49 <Bike> don't play golf on proxima centauri
06:08:21 <Fiora> what's the lore... right, the alpha centauri spaceship gets launched in 2060
06:08:41 <Fiora> I think
06:08:53 <Bike> doesn't alpha centauri also start after a global conflict nukes earth.
06:08:55 <Bike> can we like not do that
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06:09:09 <Fiora> that... yeah. I think we shouldn't do that
06:09:34 <Bike> it's settled then, no biosphere destruction
06:09:45 <zzo38> I don't think you should play golf on a star.
06:09:59 <Bike> why not
06:10:07 <zzo38> Because it won't work.
06:10:18 <Bike> how unimaginative.
06:20:46 <Gracenotes> What is the difference between the Oxford Idioms Dictionary (of English) and the Oxford Dictionary of English Idioms?
06:21:06 <Gracenotes> The first is $25 with 10,000 idioms; the second is $15 with 6,000
06:21:49 <shachaf> One of them is fiction.
06:23:59 <Gracenotes> I think the former sacrifices depth for quantity?
06:24:08 <Gracenotes> And is meant partly for ESL purposes.
06:26:13 <kmc> > (10000 / 25, 6000 / 15)
06:26:14 <lambdabot> (400.0,400.0)
06:26:17 <kmc> :O
06:26:34 <kmc> well played, Oxford
06:26:42 <Bike> lol.
06:27:02 <fizzie> I have the Oxford Dictionary of Euphemisms, but I don't know how many euphemisms is in it, and I can't remember how much it cost.
06:27:18 <Gracenotes> kmc: at least rounding to 1-2 sigfigs
06:27:40 <fizzie> It says £8.99 RRP $14.95 USA $17.95 CAN in the back.
06:27:43 <Bike> what? those are both even divisions...
06:27:55 <kmc> oxford dictionary of dysphemisms
06:27:56 <Bike> oh, you mean it's $24.99 or w/e
06:28:07 <Gracenotes> yes, and not exactly 10000, etc.
06:28:15 <Gracenotes> that is still coincidental... or is it
06:28:44 <Bike> anyway important stuff: what does this channel think of the soliton model of action potentials!??
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06:29:16 <Gracenotes> I am looking to generally improve my idiom fluency
06:30:10 <shachaf> Reading Perlis again?
06:30:21 <fizzie> "Almost five thousand", in the newer edition.
06:30:29 <fizzie> > 5000 / 15
06:30:30 <lambdabot> 333.3333333333333
06:30:39 <Gracenotes> shachaf: well, not so much (and that's about proglang idioms anyway)
06:30:42 <fizzie> You get less euphemisms per dollar than you do idioms.
06:30:50 <shachaf> Gracenotes: What, the Shakespeare bit?
06:30:55 <Gracenotes> yes
06:31:19 <Gracenotes> although surely I've absorbed that into my ethos, as with all of the epigrams
06:31:33 <Gracenotes> actually, if you want a more direct motivation, watching talks given by SPJ.
06:31:42 <Gracenotes> that are posted on YouTube
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06:35:48 <Bike> does he use weird idioms?
06:36:20 <Gracenotes> just very salient
06:36:35 <Bike> appropriately, i don't know what you mean
06:36:45 <zzo38> DM has defined some esoteric sorting algorithms, none of which are suitable for general purpose applications, and some of which don't even work at all. Some of them result in a different multiset of output than the input is. However, it seems some of them may have a use in some specialized applications.
06:38:53 <Gracenotes> there's no real way to become more proficient with communicating things precisely, but for me, I often find phrases on the tip of my tongue when trying to do so (and occasionally botch them)
06:39:15 <kmc> drinking scotch out of a mongodb mug again
06:40:10 <Bike> livin the dream
06:40:33 <kmc> listening to Röyksopp
06:40:37 <Bike> "Considering that it is possible to procedurally create any string of binary digits and we can then translate that into letters, numbers, and any other given symbol that can be encoded, we can go create every possible string which would then reveal to us every possible statement/arrangement of symbols that might possibly be factual."
06:40:49 <kmc> :bonghit noises:
06:41:09 <Gracenotes> why do companies have some weird compulsion to give out mugs/shirts/stickers/etc in the bay area?
06:41:22 <Gracenotes> because that is how you market to developers?
06:41:23 <kmc> it's a cheap way to advertise
06:41:29 <kmc> it's not just a bay area thing
06:42:14 <Gracenotes> no, but there is a strong third factor that causes companies to be here and companies to do such adverting
06:42:19 <Bike> yeah they do that at every conference thing ever
06:42:48 <Bike> interesting fact, as there are more sheep than people in new zealand, there are more google-branded pens than there are people in california
06:43:36 <zzo38> I suppose Dropsort and Abacus Sort might sometimes have some uses if the program needs the data modified in such way. Abacus sort may be used in mechanical applications, I suppose. Maybe it is possible to use dropsort in mechanical applications too. Intelligent Design Sort is one that just assumes the data is already sorted and doesn't change it. It might be useful in some applications too!
06:43:39 <Gracenotes> it might also be that I stopped paying attention to jobs at school right around when this kind of craze got into full swing
06:43:43 <kmc> Bike: what do you think about the fact that the invention of digital information processing happened at about the same time as the discovery that living things on Earth are based on digital information processing
06:44:02 <Bike> kmc: i don't understand the premise o_o
06:44:32 <Gracenotes> ..digital?
06:44:39 <Gracenotes> in organisms?
06:44:54 <kmc> sure, base 4
06:44:54 <zzo38> I suppose any program that requires a sorted input and doesn't check may be considered a kind of "intelligent design sort".
06:45:14 <Bike> DNA isn't really "digital" in the same way electromechanical computers are in any sense that is nontrivial
06:45:34 <Gracenotes> yes, I'm not entirely sure about DNA being the whole story
06:45:35 <kmc> you can call it "discrete coding" or something
06:45:45 <kmc> and clearly DNA is not the whole story about how living things work
06:46:04 <kmc> but there are some really significant parallels
06:46:06 <Gracenotes> the 'whole story' in any meaningful information processing sense
06:46:33 <kmc> mostly the fact that it's easy to make lossless copies of digital / discrete information
06:47:08 <kmc> also the fact that portions of DNA code proteins that control DNA transcription and translation makes it more like a stored-program computer
06:47:18 <kmc> although that's a more indirect analogy, and was discovered later
06:48:58 <zzo38> There is RNA and various other things too, but DNA is some things.
06:49:16 <kmc> can't really argue with that
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06:49:21 <zzo38> But someone did manage to almost make a "Hello World" program with DNA.
06:49:23 <kmc> rip
06:49:34 <Gracenotes> yes, the discoveries seem to be more a result of increasingly rapidly improving technology in general, rather than academic confluence
06:49:55 <kmc> maybe so
06:50:13 <zzo38> (The problem is it uses Q instead of O. The DNA which encodes O is usually a stop code; I do not know in what circumstances it isn't, or how to make it do such a thing)
06:50:58 <Gracenotes> a bit more interesting is the CNS, which is a bit analog.
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06:51:34 <Gracenotes> the coevolution of proteins and DNA/RNA is incredibly interesting, though
06:51:39 <Bike> stupid computer. basically i'd say computers and genetics are only both based on "digital information processing" if you stretch that term into uselessness
06:51:45 <Bike> usefulness.
06:51:53 <Bike> i need that dictionary gracenotes
06:52:13 <Bike> use... I... it would suck that's what i mean
06:52:20 <kmc> maybe not processing but storage and reproduction at least
06:52:32 <Gracenotes> especially the bit about retroviruses
06:52:38 <Bike> i think it's important not to overstate what DNA does
06:53:03 <Bike> it's basically a thing that is easy to transmit to offspring without much degradation
06:53:09 <kmc> yeah
06:53:13 <kmc> that's what I've been saying...
06:53:24 <Bike> life has many, many aspects that aren't "digital" like DNA is
06:53:30 <kmc> sigh
06:53:35 <Gracenotes> well, with heavy degradation, just not of the important bits
06:53:37 <Bike> sorry
06:53:47 <kmc> you are a thief of joy
06:54:07 <shachaf> is that where my joy went?
06:54:13 <Bike> as an example there's http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gene_oscillation which is neat
06:54:32 <Gracenotes> blame kmc for not putting it in your favorite terms
06:54:44 <Bike> the thing itself, not the wikipedia article which is kind of terrible, oops
06:55:11 <Gracenotes> someone should make complexity classes for life
06:55:13 <Bike> now let me check the logs so i don't annoy kmc more
06:55:29 <Bike> "and clearly DNA is not the whole story about how living things work" whoopsie
06:56:00 <Bike> ok, so, lemme latch on to "also the fact that portions of DNA code proteins that control DNA transcription and translation makes it more like a stored-program computer" a bit
06:56:41 <Bike> the problem with this as i imagine you know is that beyond the central dogma, the expressed proteins don't really form a "program" per se
06:56:57 <Bike> i mean, there's a reason turing back in the day expressed relations between enzymes with differential equations
06:57:44 <Bike> like, it's a stored program computer in that you have a fairly immutable "source" that is expressed into an active "program" but that's about where the analogy ends, you know?
06:57:51 <kmc> sure
06:58:20 <Bike> like you've got these things http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gene_regulatory_network
06:58:35 <Bike> which i'm not really sure how you'd phrase in a programmy way, though it could be interesting to do so
06:58:47 <Gracenotes> It's an interesting hypothethical assignment, as well, something like 'Here, I want an enzyme that helps catalyze this reaction, I'll allow you 2 ATP; I want the DNA code on my desk tomorrow'
06:59:03 <Bike> heh
06:59:16 <Bike> i guess to start with you'd have to design the protein
06:59:28 <Bike> and then you have to come up with an amino acid chain that folds into it
06:59:28 <Gracenotes> 'Also, inhibit it according to density of the product using pH'
06:59:35 <Bike> that's probably NP complete, if not impossible :<
06:59:52 <Gracenotes> well, that's okay, I'll give you a few millenia; brute force it
07:00:00 <Bike> sweet
07:00:24 <Bike> oh as long as i'm on this that reminds me that i've been thinking of the CNS and stuff differently lately
07:00:24 <shachaf> why do i read #haskell logz
07:00:41 <shachaf> well getLine :: IO String contains a thunk that when evaluated reads characters of a line from standard input
07:00:47 <shachaf> kmc: in case you were missing out
07:00:47 <Gracenotes> it's the best channel
07:00:49 <kmc> so close yet so far
07:01:03 <kmc> shachaf: hey so did they fix the "non-allocating threads can't be preëmpted" bug in GHC yet
07:01:09 <Bike> if you consider evolution as a kind of generic, idiotic (in that it doesn't know anything about the problem space) optimizer, you can consider the CNS (and also adaptive immunity~) as specialized fairly generic optimizers that work on somatic time instead ok nobody cares.
07:01:11 <shachaf> not sure
07:01:11 <kmc> i was talking about this with some other Mozilla Research people today
07:01:24 <kmc> Bike: yeah that's a neat view
07:01:27 <shachaf> rust threads are coöperative, right?
07:01:35 <kmc> I think there's some of that in The Extended Phenotype
07:01:43 <kmc> shachaf: yes and they are only preëmpted at syscalls, I think
07:01:45 <shachaf> is that the semantics or just the implementation?
07:01:49 <Bike> There are certain parts of the immune system that have hyperfast genetic mutation
07:01:50 <kmc> dunno
07:01:52 <shachaf> concurrent haskell allows either, after all
07:01:55 <shachaf> and has explicit yield
07:02:00 <shachaf> though no one really uses it??
07:02:09 <kmc> the semantics of Rust threads don't include shared mutable state, really
07:02:21 <Bike> i think 9/10 times i've seen "thunk" in this channel it's been about getLine
07:02:26 <kmc> i think I used explicit yield sometime
07:03:08 <Bike> `pastelogs thunk
07:03:10 <kmc> anyway I was wondering about the virtues of a scheduler like GHC's, that knows about the HLL abstract machine state, vs. just running your HLL compiled code on top of a ISA level coroutines library
07:03:19 <kmc> i.e. do you save STG registers or do you save x86 registers
07:03:20 <shachaf> Bike: who'da thunk it (stupid thunkz joke)
07:03:25 <Bike> nooooo
07:03:28 <Gracenotes> Bike: CNS is essentially a generalized learning architecture
07:03:32 <kmc> is there a compelling reason not to do the latter, other than it being a ton of work to switch?
07:03:40 <kmc> i think it would solve the preëmption problem
07:03:44 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.28703
07:03:58 <Gracenotes> it is interesting. the more general it is, the more data it takes to learn, but the smarter it is.
07:04:08 <Bike> Gracenotes: well, really you have to consider the peripheral nervous system too, i mean you can do conditioning in the "dumb" parts of the nervous system
07:04:13 <Bike> also reflexes and all
07:04:38 <shachaf> How does it solve the preëmption problem?
07:04:48 <Gracenotes> yes. there is, so to speak, specialized learning cortex
07:05:22 <Gracenotes> much lower plasticity
07:05:23 <Bike> also people are good at learning weird things like how to play Guitar Hero and not other weird things like group theory, in general
07:05:26 <shachaf> kmc: best cult imo
07:05:34 <kmc> well it's easy enough for some watchdog to force a Haskell-evaluating thread to stop; the problem AIUI is that if you've stopped on some arbitrary instruction you can't recover the abstract machine state in order to context switch it
07:05:51 <kmc> you can do that at allocations because allocations might garbage collect and the GC needs to know about roots anyway
07:06:23 <shachaf> Well, you can't really stop at arbitrary instructions anyway, can you?
07:06:26 <Bike> «<elliott> oerjan: so I don't have to do the Haskellian "thunks stub themselves out with {return value;} upon evaluation"?» seeing half of this conversation is really weird
07:06:53 <kmc> shachaf: another OS thread can do it with ptrace(), or you use SIGALRM or something
07:07:03 <shachaf> Mid-thunk-update or something. At least it doesn't seem obvious that it's safe.
07:07:05 <Bike> kmc: also sorry for being annoying >_>
07:07:08 <Gracenotes> how to async exceptions happen? checked in some common code (like unknown function application, e.g.?)
07:07:11 <Gracenotes> *do
07:07:15 <kmc> Bike: i still <3 you
07:07:22 <kmc> how is asyncc exception formed
07:07:33 <Gracenotes> how thread get suspanded
07:07:35 <Bike> i feel less than threed
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07:08:30 <Gracenotes> well, really, they need to do way instain throwTo, who kill her target, because target cannot frigth back
07:08:46 <Gracenotes> I will stop while I am well behind.
07:09:13 <Bike> help
07:09:26 <kmc> send pocky
07:09:43 <Gracenotes> I find stupid internet stuff funny
07:10:23 <Bike> badger badger
07:10:45 <Gracenotes> for example: http://reddit.com/r/supershibe
07:10:53 <Bike> what is with that damn dog
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07:11:39 <Bike> http://i.imgur.com/3UVbLfV.png me irl
07:12:19 <Gracenotes> http://i.imgur.com/VKT21lx.png
07:12:48 <shachaf> http://slbkbs.org/sb/1.png is me
07:12:56 <Bike> Gracenotes: is that like a line from something
07:13:17 <Gracenotes> I don't know, it's in the snowclone-meme ether
07:13:22 <olsner> "to do way instain" rings a bell
07:13:51 <Bike> it's from "how is babby formed"
07:14:43 <shachaf> i love snowclone-memes
07:14:44 <Gracenotes> I have met shachaf irl and can confirm he looks like that
07:14:45 <shachaf> they are so easy
07:14:58 <mnoqy> shachaf: hasn't that been done before
07:15:13 <Bike> Gracenotes: how does he do the transparency
07:15:21 <shachaf> mnoqy: yes "thats the point"
07:15:32 <shachaf> Bike: trade secret
07:15:43 <Bike> is shachaf an apng
07:16:23 <shachaf> ape-ng
07:16:27 <shachaf> better than y'all regular apes
07:17:45 <Gracenotes> http://i.imgur.com/jY77iIKh.jpg
07:18:37 <Bike> is that comic sans with drop shadow
07:18:39 <Bike> imo beautiful
07:20:40 <shachaf> What is it with people claiming that things are great because they're vaguely similar to things named after category theory without actually understanding what they're talking about?
07:21:08 <Gracenotes> such as?
07:21:19 <shachaf> People on Internetwebsites.
07:21:24 <Gracenotes> I love how clear-looking C++ functors make my code look?
07:21:30 <shachaf> I should quit reading Internetwebsites.
07:22:03 <shachaf> I have a feeling Gracenotes was terribly bored during bacat today.
07:22:27 <Bike> it's uh, assocation bias or something, isn't it
07:22:32 <Gracenotes> I did get tired for a bit of it, because of general sleep deprivation
07:22:50 <shachaf> Doing bookexercises is admittedly not the most exciting thing...
07:22:54 <shachaf> Maybe I should've done some.
07:22:55 <Gracenotes> I might have gotten more out of it if did the exercises, though
07:23:00 <Bike> "this thing [category theory] is cool, so this other related thing [ProFunctorsX Enterprise Edition] is cool"
07:23:29 <Bike> also nobody understands what anybody is talking about ever, fyi
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07:25:22 <Gracenotes> so I will be attending maybe ICFP, but perhaps rather just the Haskell bits, but maybe everything
07:26:17 <Gracenotes> I will learn about the best profunctor to apply in my enterprise coding
07:26:23 <shachaf> Gracenotes: You will?
07:26:45 <Gracenotes> I plan on it, basically
07:26:50 <shachaf> Should I attend?
07:27:06 <Gracenotes> Perhaps
07:27:34 <Bike> look at the list of projects here: http://www.systemsx.ch/projects/research-technology-and-development-projects/ they're practically all WhateverX
07:27:36 <Gracenotes> I think I would enjoy it based on watching lots of Haskell talks on the internet primarily
07:27:49 <Bike> PhosphoNetX
07:28:00 <Gracenotes> although enjoyment may be selection bias related
07:28:07 <shachaf> How much does attending ICFP cost, anyway?
07:28:19 <shachaf> Oh, there's a PDF.
07:28:28 <Gracenotes> this much http://regmaster3.com/2013conf/ICFP13/register.pdf
07:28:29 <Gracenotes> yes
07:29:01 <Gracenotes> quite a bit... they have to rent out the space and provide free food to attendees
07:29:04 <Gracenotes> so not actually free food
07:29:10 <shachaf> cofree food
07:29:16 <shachaf> (in that you pay for it)
07:29:25 <Bike> that site has a typo in its search result
07:30:18 <Gracenotes> part of the inflation is because attendees don't pay for it out of pocket, but rather often by their institution.
07:30:21 <Gracenotes> if they have one
07:31:05 <shachaf> Can you email them and tell them your institution isn't paying for it and so they should give you a discount?
07:31:07 <Gracenotes> well, usually only if they're presenting, for academics at least, or it's very obviously work-related
07:31:14 <shachaf> alt. can your institution pay for it?
07:31:23 <Gracenotes> you can find an institution to pay for you
07:31:27 <Gracenotes> maybe
07:31:57 <Gracenotes> you can print out a name badge and wear it
07:32:15 <Gracenotes> I dunno
07:35:47 <Gracenotes> anyway, I really have no idea how this stuff works
07:35:55 <Gracenotes> just hearsay
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11:07:43 <oerjan> <kmc> well played, Oxford <-- are you saying they get paid by number of words?
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11:11:53 <oerjan> ask kmc <kmc> drinking scotch out of a mongodb mug again <-- is it a humongous mug twh
11:16:05 <oerjan> wat
11:16:10 <oerjan> @ask kmc <kmc> drinking scotch out of a mongodb mug again <-- is it a humongous mug twh
11:16:10 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
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11:28:41 <fizzie> It is a WEBSCALE mug.
11:28:59 <oerjan> ooh
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16:31:29 <olsner> "This aptitude does not have Super Cow Powers." sounds like it's trying to be funny... I wonder how that's funny
16:31:38 <coppro> olsner: apt-get moo
16:32:09 <Fiora> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aptitude_(software)#Easter_egg I think ?
16:32:20 <coppro> also last line of apt-get help
16:32:21 <shachaf> ols-ner moo
16:32:51 <olsner> sha-haf moo
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16:36:09 <olsner> hmm, there it is... and now that I think about it, I never did figure out what the difference between apt-get and aptitude is
16:38:34 <coppro> aptitude is another interface basically
16:38:43 <coppro> different features and dependency resolution
16:56:50 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/1ijr21/til_when_coming_to_power_in_january_1933_the_nazi/cb58ov6
16:56:54 <Phantom_Hoover> i... reddit
16:57:33 <Phantom_Hoover> (pity it wasn't in /r/bitcoin, it's a perfect MEANWHILE IN)
16:58:54 <Jafet> Meanwhile in 1933
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18:04:43 <kmc> Fact: Any sentence starting with "Fact:" is probably bogus
18:05:04 <kmc> @tell oerjan no, ordinary size
18:05:04 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
18:05:41 <shachaf> fun fact 0 = 1
18:06:28 <elliott> .
18:07:15 <shachaf> .
18:07:38 <kmc> Proof: crush. Qed.
18:08:13 <elliott> is shachaf never going to give the second line again
18:08:24 <shachaf> sry
18:08:28 <shachaf> that line is for you to give
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18:23:57 <fizzie> It is, indeed, quite "fun" that the factorial of 0 is 1.
18:24:16 <elliott> fizzie doesn't know the second line?
18:24:18 <elliott> shachaf: we need the second line.
18:24:23 <shachaf> elliott: Go for it.
18:24:26 <elliott> nope.
18:24:31 <fizzie> I don't know the second line.
18:24:33 <shachaf> fizzie: "fun" is SML for a function definition.
18:24:36 <elliott> `pastlog shachaf.*fact.*=
18:24:45 <HackEgo> 2013-03-27.txt:00:19:48: <shachaf> | fact n = n * fact (n - 1)
18:24:53 <fizzie> shachaf: I was thinking it'd be something like that.
18:24:53 <elliott> `thanks HackEgo
18:24:55 <HackEgo> Thanks, HackEgo. ThackEgo.
18:25:01 <shachaf> fizzie: http://www.angelfire.com/tx4/cus/pl/ctm_aml_01.html
18:25:15 <elliott> you forgot the ;
18:25:31 <shachaf> Maybe that's because I don't know SML.
18:25:32 <elliott> hmm, I guess it's actually a separator, not a terminato
18:25:33 <elliott> r
18:25:35 <shachaf> The second line was your job.
18:29:04 <zzo38> Do you have some ideas about a alternate syntax for 6502 assembly codes? I have had the idea too, but I wasn't complete.
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19:04:29 <zzo38> The controls I prefer on a PC platform game is left and right shift keys to move, space bar to jump, and ZXCVBNM,./ to shoot. This is a bit unusual, but it is what I prefer. Do you have preferences about it?
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19:18:24 <Bike> wasd 4 lyfe
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19:24:15 <kmc> that's a lot of shooting keys
19:24:20 <kmc> do they all shoot the same thing
19:24:35 <kmc> or are you running around holding 9 different guns
19:26:22 <elliott> I know I am
19:26:34 <Bike> it's the american way.
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19:32:49 <oerjan> @tell kmc I sense a great lost opportunity
19:32:49 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
19:35:51 <kmc> @messages
19:48:45 <Taneb> Okay, I am really bad at watching sad movies
19:48:50 <Taneb> I'm crying my eyes out at Batman
19:49:12 <Bike> isn't that the point
19:49:16 <Bike> of sad movies
19:49:27 <Fiora> that sounds like *good* at watching them?
19:49:39 <Fiora> I like crying at movies at least, it'd be less fun if I didn't
19:50:01 <zzo38> kmc: They all do the same thing.
19:50:42 <shachaf> imo crying is good but crying at movies is bad because the manipulation etc. is usually so obvious
19:50:47 <shachaf> and by bad i mean i don't like it so much
19:50:51 <zzo38> Pharaoh's Tomb and Arctic Adventure use a superset of these keys; the arrows keys can also be used to move and the F key also shoots. In addition, it can be configured to use the CTRL and ALT keys to move left/right (you can switch which one is left and which is right).
19:51:14 <kmc> shachaf: that reminds me, what's with restaurants and shops that play music
19:51:26 <kmc> here while you're waiting in line for a burger maybe you'd like to hear a song about extreme emotional trauma
19:51:36 <zzo38> shachaf: Bad is that you are crying and cannot listen to movie or other audience can.
19:52:52 <shachaf> imo crying at books is better than crying at movies #snobz
19:53:35 <zzo38> shachaf: Crying at books is bad too you might get the pages wet.
19:54:32 <shachaf> not if you read ebooks
19:55:47 <zzo38> But then you will get the display wet.
19:56:33 <Bike> the display can take it! it's a manly display
19:56:53 <kmc> in my experience women are at least as waterproof as men
19:57:23 <Bike> manly waterproofing
19:58:02 <Bike> going around spraying people with buckets of water to judge relative waterproofness
20:01:10 <Bike> elliott: http://fc09.deviantart.net/fs37/i/2008/267/c/c/PLATYBELODON_by_Sk00tie.jpg
20:01:42 <elliott> thanks.
20:02:17 <Bike> np
20:05:57 <kmc> why
20:08:37 <shachaf> kmc: Not when you have bulgarian cheese!
20:08:40 <shachaf> And/or superpowers.
20:09:36 <kmc> this is so confusing shachaf
20:09:53 <oerjan> what superpowers does bulgarian cheese man or woman have
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20:22:46 <shachaf> kmc: I have an Internet connection that corrupts a lot of packets.
20:22:55 <shachaf> How can I download things reasonably?
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20:23:08 <kmc> get a better internet connection, hth
20:23:13 <shachaf> For example I'm trying to apt-get this 0.5MB file.
20:23:17 <shachaf> It keeps failing.
20:23:24 <kmc> maybe BitTorrent over UDP
20:23:29 <kmc> or one of the other UDP-based file transfer thingies
20:23:33 <kmc> that doesn't try to send the file in order
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20:57:26 <elliott> Bike: attn http://www.theonion.com/articles/fbi-offering-1-million-reward-for-any-information,33157/
20:58:22 <Fiora> their real motivation must be trying to improve their subterfuge
20:58:32 <Fiora> after all, the who's really good at dishonesty? a cheetah
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21:26:30 <kmc> https://github.com/mozilla/rust/blob/master/src/rt/rust_debug.h#L23-L27
21:28:05 <Fiora> signal(SIGTRAP, SIG_IGN) what does that do? isn't signal assigning a function pointer?
21:28:10 <Fiora> like, is SIG_IGN a function?
21:28:40 <fizzie> It's a Special Value.
21:28:59 <Fiora> it says... it should be ignored...?
21:29:07 <Fiora> what happens if you raise a signal that should be ignored o_O
21:29:18 <fizzie> It should get ignored.
21:29:28 <fizzie> It tends to break in a debugger, though; that might be what it's about.
21:29:34 <fizzie> (Also possibly under other circumstances?)
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21:43:09 <zzo38> Is my bio in CthulhuMUD any good? It seems like really strange compared to everything else.
21:43:28 <shachaf> zzo38: How should I know? I haven't seen it.
21:44:18 <zzo38> JfRh
21:44:33 <shachaf> JfRh
21:45:02 <zzo38> http://sprunge.us/JfRh
21:45:23 <zzo38> I think the line wrapping is no good in this file, for one thing.
21:45:32 <Bike> this breakpoint doesn't seem very awesome
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21:46:24 <zzo38> Bike: What breakpoint?
21:46:38 <Bike> the one kmc linked
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21:47:32 <zzo38> Did I make any spelling mistakes other than the one I have already corrected?
21:48:24 <Bike> "the male mi-go migo scientist"?
21:48:42 <Bike> also what's with the comma in Gknqwvonqtunkznbcvjbaklsrgjhqpwetypqwrkzbxncv,bakdlgqweprthpahdskznxvkljqthw
21:48:43 <zzo38> I have made a breakpoint in VisualBoyAdvance with something like that you simply get a infinite loop
21:49:22 <zzo38> Bike: The first three lines are typed by the computer; I asked why it says "the male mi-go migo scientist" with the word twice and inconsistent hyphenation; they don't know why either.
21:49:35 <Taneb> I think on the whole I enjoyed Batman Begins
21:49:43 <zzo38> Maybe I should remove the comma, I suppose, though.
21:51:06 <zzo38> But I cannot change the line that says "the male mi-go migo scientist". The reason it is repeated is because one is a profession, but I don't know why it is inconsistent. Probably it would improve if they fix it to add a flag to a profession that tells it to not be repeated.
21:51:11 <zzo38> But that isn't up to me.
21:51:20 <zzo38> The third line and below is the text I typed in.
21:51:28 <zzo38> I mean, below the third line.
21:51:35 <zzo38> (The third line is made by the computer.)
21:52:41 <shachaf> "Gknqwvonqtunkznbcvjbaklsrgjhqpwetypqwrkzbxncv,bakdlgqweprthpahdskznxvkljqthw" looks like a spelling mistake to me.
21:53:09 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes it is; the comma is wrong.
21:53:27 <shachaf> Also the rest of it.
21:53:33 <Bike> it's a proper noun!
21:53:51 <kmc> Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch
21:55:27 <shachaf> zzo38: It says "O no", but it means "Oh no".
21:55:33 <shachaf> Or maybe "Oh, no".
21:56:24 <zzo38> Does that mean I put the comma in the wrong sentence?
21:56:40 <Bike> no, it means you used "O" which does not mean the same thing as "Oh"
21:56:51 <Bike> and i doubt you're trying to address No.
21:57:18 <shachaf> O Bike
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21:59:37 <zzo38> Maybe I am trying to address Yes.
21:59:48 <Bike> then you should put "O yes"
21:59:51 <Bike> O Yes rather
22:00:12 <zzo38> I didn't say I am trying to address Yes; I said maybe I am. Actually I am not.
22:00:21 <Bike> D:
22:00:34 <shachaf> Oh, you sure got Bike.
22:00:41 <Fiora> Bike: http://arxiv.org/abs/1303.5787 http://arxiv.org/abs/1306.3960
22:01:02 <Bike> fiora these look scary
22:01:34 <Fiora> summary of the first: the r-process may occur in ejecta from neutron star collisions, depending on the masses of the stars, the impact, the equation of state, etc, and this will have a very measurable effect on the afterglow spectrum and can be detected
22:01:39 <Fiora> the second: we found one!1!
22:01:54 <zzo38> Is there anything else good or no good about what I wrote?
22:03:47 <Bike> what's an r-process
22:04:56 <Fiora> rapid neutron capture process, so like, when you have iron atoms in a supernova
22:05:10 <Fiora> and the supernova neutron flux causes atoms to capture many many many neutrons before they have a chance to decay
22:05:20 <Fiora> because there's just so many neutrons
22:05:20 <fizzie> It sounds like an abb. for a random process.
22:05:24 <Fiora> rapid
22:05:49 <shachaf> It's very irritating when you have a slow connection that web standard/browser/whatever says that you can't see the page until things have finished loading.
22:06:26 <shachaf> Such that a page stays un-readable for minutes, but as soon as I, say, get disconnected, all the text show up immediately. It was there all along, but waiting for things to load.
22:06:33 <Fiora> oh, huh, it's more than just that
22:06:36 <shachaf> A <script> in the <head>, or a font, or other things.
22:06:39 <Fiora> "Immediately after the severe compression of electrons in a core-collapse supernova, beta-minus decay is blocked. This is because the high electron density fills all available free electron states up to an Fermi energy which is greater than the energy of nuclear beta decay." :o
22:07:02 <Fiora> so not only are the neutrons everywhere but the nuclei can't beta decay either
22:09:21 <Bike> this sounds very science
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22:09:57 <Fiora> sciiienceeee~!
22:10:11 <Fiora> if you don't want me to link you these things I won't okay :<
22:10:55 <Bike> no i just don't understand it
22:11:38 <Fiora> sorry ._.
22:11:57 <Bike> i don't understnd a lot of things, man
22:12:42 <Fiora> teach me like, biology then or something!
22:13:09 <fizzie> Bikeology.
22:13:37 <shachaf> Bike: teach me biology instead
22:13:41 <Bike> i haven't actually taken a biology clss since high school you know :/
22:13:52 <shachaf> i want to learn too!!
22:13:58 <Bike> i'm working on this stuff man.
22:14:04 <Fiora> and I haven't taken a physics class since like um. sophmore year?
22:14:12 <Bike> also http://24.media.tumblr.com/0a602f21196aab912fbc944e8a7a8650/tumblr_mpa7ytfYhU1rhb9f5o2_r1_1280.jpg
22:14:19 <Bike> Fiora: showoff :P
22:14:53 <Fiora> showoff...?
22:14:59 <Fiora> it was an intro class >_<
22:15:00 <shachaf> i've never taken a class and moreover i don't know anything
22:15:00 <fizzie> Bike: Is that a self-portrait?
22:15:14 <Bike> i'd never allow myself to be photographed while that dirty.
22:15:16 <Bike> also i'm a bike
22:15:21 <shachaf> you're not a bike
22:15:40 <shachaf> stop diminishing the plight of actual bikes
22:16:24 <Bike> >:
22:16:58 <Bike> also "teach me biology" is like as broad as "teach me math" or "teach me physics"
22:17:01 <Bike> there's a lot of biology
22:17:13 <shachaf> teach me biology (the good parts)
22:17:42 <Bike> is that a javascript joke
22:18:07 <nooodl> Bike: i think it's even broader??
22:18:13 <nooodl> with biology there's not even an obvious place to start
22:18:46 <Bike> well same goes for math, like, do you start with numbers or with geometry
22:18:59 <pikhq_> Teach me science.
22:19:58 <Fiora> Bike: okay um, maybe like "teach me any subset of biology"
22:20:20 <shachaf> biøløgy
22:20:32 <Bike> well which subsets are you interested in
22:20:32 <Bike> (also: which ones can i reasonably talk about >_>)
22:20:58 <Fiora> anything you can talk about <.<;
22:21:23 <Bike> um uh
22:21:34 <Bike> well yesterday i was looking at soliton theory i guess
22:21:46 <Bike> do you know the theory of how neurons basically work, with hodgkin-huxley?
22:22:23 <oerjan> solitary neurons are so underestimated
22:23:00 <Bike> there's a book on my wishlist about computational properties of single neurons but it costs like, money
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22:23:38 <Bike> i am not a good teacher :<
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22:24:51 <oerjan> @quote immuteability
22:24:51 <lambdabot> No quotes match. You speak an infinite deal of nothing.
22:25:20 <oerjan> @quote immute
22:25:20 <lambdabot> No quotes match. Are you on drugs?
22:25:31 <Bike> @quote immut
22:25:31 <lambdabot> Berengal says: Anyone doubting the immutable value philosophy needs to try vacuum
22:25:44 <oerjan> elliott: why isn't lambdabot including the latest hwn quotes help
22:25:47 <Bike> that was informative.
22:25:52 <shachaf> oerjan: There's another way of getting quotes into HWN.
22:25:56 <shachaf> Other than @remember.
22:26:07 <oerjan> shachaf: *gasp*
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22:31:30 <Bike> so Fiora
22:31:38 <Bike> do you know how neurons are supposed to work with hodgkin-huxley
22:31:43 <Fiora> hodgkin-huxley?
22:31:56 <Bike> that's the name of the theory. it's named after some british guys like usual
22:32:38 <Bike> alright so, neurons work by "firing", which entails an electrical "action potential" traveling around. this is experimentally observable etc
22:33:12 <Bike> basically for about a millisecond a given area will jump 100 mV, and then decay rapidly to below where it was, before getting back to where it was
22:33:37 <Fiora> okay, that makes sense
22:33:52 <Bike> so, back in the 50s they were trying to work out how this happened
22:34:25 <Bike> they figured it had to do in large part with how cell membranes work. do you know about lipid bilayers?
22:34:45 <Fiora> that's the thing cell membranes are made out of, right? it's like a thing with lipids but I dno't know much more
22:35:10 <Bike> right well, lipids are a kind of organic molecule
22:35:34 <Bike> they have a property that they're hydrophilic on one side (the "head") and hydrophobic on the other (the "tail")
22:35:44 <Bike> meaning the head attracts water and the tail doesn't
22:36:15 <Bike> you can easily make a "bilayer" of these, which is basically a simple structure where you have two layers of parallel lipids (with the heads all on one side, see), and then you touch their tails
22:36:25 <Bike> so you get a hydrophobic core and two hydrophilic sides.
22:36:38 <Bike> make sense?
22:36:41 <Fiora> makes sense!
22:37:01 <Bike> i think it's a neat design myself, you can pretty much just toss a bunch of lipids in a pool and they'll form pseudo-membranes
22:37:11 <Bike> anyway, so that's what a cell membrane is made of, along with proteins that jut out
22:37:39 <Bike> on average the mass ratio is 1 protein/1 membrane to give you an idea of how infested the membrane is with transmembrane proteins
22:38:00 <pikhq_> That's a lot of proteins.
22:38:02 <Fiora> and those are all the things that dock with random molecules lying outside and inside and do stuff?
22:38:10 <Bike> right
22:38:23 <shachaf> kmc: should i move to the city y/n
22:38:25 <Bike> specifically these are often "transport proteins" that use some energy to move something from the outside of the cell to the inside, or vice versa
22:38:32 <Bike> (there are other proteins that are entirely inside the cell, and such)
22:38:41 <kmc> shachaf: yes
22:40:27 <Bike> so what hodgkin-huxley boils down to is, you have voltage-gated ion channels, which are transport proteins that move charged ions (like Na+, K+, Ca2+ especially) across the membrane
22:40:40 <Bike> voltage-gated meaning they open or close based on the voltage of the membrane
22:41:27 <Bike> with these things, a cell can maintain a voltage (that is, a difference in electric potential on the inside from the outside) by moving ions around, see
22:42:40 <Fiora> That makes sense
22:43:21 <Bike> the neat thing is that this is all guesswork based on measured voltage data, they basically just fit a model to it. pretty great for mathematical biology
22:44:02 <Bike> but it's not perfect, and also the ful differential equations have like twenty experimentally determined parameters, which is kind of a lot
22:44:46 <Fiora> geez
22:45:43 <Bike> so, around 2005 some german (i think) biophysicists started working on an alternative, called the soliton model
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22:47:57 <zzo38> Is it possible for two batteries to each show 1.5 V individually on a multimeter but if you put both in series you will get 0.5 V instead?
22:48:02 <Bike> a soliton is a wave that keeps its shape, like this http://www.tu-chemnitz.de/physik/KSND/abb/sol1.gif
22:49:35 <Fiora> makes sense
22:49:57 <Bike> their idea is, the real nature of action potentials is in soliton waves traveling along cell membranes, and they're actually caused by this thermomechanical pulse
22:50:25 <Bike> which has a bit of empiricism behind it, like, apparently there are noticeable (physical) bulges where an action potential is, and you can trigger them mechanically and stuff
22:51:44 <Bike> it's definitely a fringe theory, but the nice thing about it is that it explains anesthetics
22:51:51 <Bike> you know what a general anesthetic is? something that just knocks you out?
22:51:58 <Bike> turns out nobody knows why they work.
22:52:05 <Fiora> yeah, I remember reading about that and being kind of shocked
22:52:14 <Bike> kinda scary
22:52:20 <Bike> anyway the soliton theory can sort of explain it
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22:52:36 <Bike> the idea is, anesthetic effectiveness is pretty well correlated with the anesthetic's solubility in lipids
22:53:01 <Bike> so what happens when you get anesthetized is that the anesthetic just dissolves in neural membranes, which halts soliton motion.
22:53:23 <kmc> so what role do the voltage-gated ion channels have in this model?
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22:54:04 <Fiora> so why does the brain keep functioning while you're under general anesthetia?
22:54:18 <kmc> also how do you get from an external neurotransmitter receptor binding to a soliton action
22:54:22 <Fiora> like I mean you're asleep, but things keep working (like breathing and stuff?)
22:54:28 <kmc> neurotransmitters are also mostly ion channels aren't they
22:54:57 <elliott> isn't a general anaesthetic that doesn't keep you breathing just called killing you
22:55:09 <Bike> i think the soliton model just assumes ion channels are part of the general thermomechanical answer
22:55:09 <kmc> what do they use for heart-lung machines
22:55:21 <Bike> which is kind of a shitty answer and probably part of why it's fringe!
22:55:22 <elliott> "today we're going to be using the general anaesthetic known as 'cyanide'"
22:55:53 <Bike> elliott: have i ever shown you the paper where some anestheticians accidentally used a muscle relaxant (which they got from Amazonian blowdarts btw) thinking it was an anesthetic
22:55:56 <Bike> on children
22:56:20 <Fiora> elliott: I meant like why does it let you keep breathing
22:56:26 <Bike> Fiora: as for that i really have no idea!
22:56:36 <elliott> Bike: I... no
22:56:43 <Fiora> and I mean, like, they do MRIs and stuff under anesthetia and find that the brain isn't like, *off* or anything, right?
22:56:46 <Bike> elliott: well that happened. hth.
22:56:46 <Fiora> or EEGs or things
22:56:49 <Fiora> it's just, like, suppressed
22:56:56 <elliott> Bike: is the content of the paper "oops, we goofed!"
22:57:28 <elliott> being under general anaesthetic was weird
22:57:34 <elliott> then again I was five years old, so everything was weird
22:57:40 <Bike> elliott: yes, but first they double check that the kids weren't lying by having one of them take a muscle relaxant until he can't move any of his muscles.
22:57:48 <Bike> one of the anestheticians, i mean
22:58:09 <elliott> haha
22:58:19 <Bike> basically this paper is how i learned that anesthetics is a terrifying science.
22:58:26 <Fiora> I haven't ever been as far as I remember
22:58:31 <Fiora> the prospect is kind of scary ;_;
22:58:51 <Fiora> I asked for no general anesthetia when I had my wisdom teeth out because I was too scared to do it
22:58:55 <elliott> it was to remove a hernia, for me
22:59:01 <elliott> so not really much choice
22:59:12 <Bike> as they took him off the relaxant and he got the ability to talk back he was like "hi yes i was conscious the whole time, phil you did fucking terribly at removing spit from my mouth"
22:59:33 <Fiora> eesh
22:59:48 <Bike> this was in like the 40s to give you a timeframe
22:59:58 <Bike> hopefully they've improved just a bit even if they still have no clue how GA works.
23:00:15 <elliott> other fun elliott operation anecdotes: when I woke up there was a bandage around my wrist and also I was kind of crazy because I just woke up so I wanted it off
23:00:26 <elliott> uh not wrist
23:00:29 <elliott> just... hand, arm, area.
23:00:35 <Fiora> like, the IV?
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23:00:42 <elliott> no, not attached to anything
23:00:47 <elliott> so I unwrapped it and there was a thing stuck in my arm (what are they called help)
23:00:53 <elliott> and I freaked and tried to rip it out :P
23:00:57 <Bike> this cast is sapping my bodily fluids
23:01:01 <Bike> were you unsupervised...
23:01:06 <elliott> no
23:01:09 <elliott> this happened in the space of like two seconds
23:01:36 <kmc> i had GA for wisdom teeth
23:01:43 <kmc> it was kind of amusing
23:02:09 <kmc> "97... 96... oh look now I'm standing up and my mouth is full of blood and gauze"
23:02:14 <elliott> another fun anecdote: they put like, local anaesthetic cream on the back of my hand to numb it for putting the anaesthetic needle in
23:02:19 <elliott> but I didn't quite understand that part
23:02:21 <Fiora> I kind of strangely (like a feeling of curiosity) enjoyed the non-GA wisdom teeth
23:02:25 <Fiora> since I got to, well, experience the whole thing
23:02:27 <elliott> and I thought the cream was instead of the needle somehow
23:02:36 <elliott> so that was pretty fun when they were like "okay time to stick a needle in you!"
23:02:41 <kmc> Fiora: how was it
23:02:57 <Fiora> first they gave me like 12 shots of local
23:03:05 <Fiora> which was fine (I mean I'd done it plenty before)
23:03:16 <Fiora> then the guy had these, like, big plier things
23:03:23 <Fiora> and basically just pulled out my top two wisdom teeth
23:03:26 <Fiora> because those were really easy to get at
23:03:44 <Fiora> then he had to use the drill to deal with the lower two and chop them up (one was impacted)
23:03:54 <elliott> also being under the anaetshetic was kind of weird, it wasn't really like sleeping
23:03:57 <elliott> hard to describe
23:04:12 <Fiora> and so like he pulled out a big chunk and drilled and got more chunks and so on
23:04:18 <Fiora> and like the impacted one had to be pulled out in a million pieces
23:04:40 <elliott> this sounds terrifying. fyi.
23:04:41 <Fiora> there was like, a lot of pressure, and the one painful bit was when the drill sort of reached the bone/nerve area past where the anesthetic was affecting? like the jaw I guess
23:04:53 <Fiora> but it wasn't that bad or anything, just little spikes of pain
23:05:01 <Fiora> and after like 10 minutes it was all done and I walked out
23:05:10 <Fiora> sorry that was horribly TMI
23:06:05 <Fiora> and at the end I guess he like sewed it up with a few dissolving stitches
23:06:14 <Bike> yeah i've had this too though uh i don't think it was quite this interesting
23:06:24 <Fiora> really? I figured mine was kind of boring since only one was impacted
23:06:28 <Bike> just drilling into my jaw while i'm sitting there like "am i seriously watching this"
23:06:33 <Fiora> yeah, basically XD
23:06:39 <kmc> TMI? well I did ask...
23:06:53 <kmc> I also had a bunch of dental work done under local anaesthetic + laughing gas
23:07:04 <Fiora> that must be par for the course for you though, right?
23:07:05 <Fiora> I mean, durgs
23:07:06 <elliott> if you asked for too much information is it still too much.........
23:07:07 <Fiora> *drugs
23:07:09 <elliott> (#drugz)
23:07:16 <elliott> good simultaneous drug
23:07:23 <kmc> haha
23:07:29 <kmc> well I was like 10 years old at the time
23:07:30 <kmc> so not really
23:07:38 <Bike> but i like look up videos of human corpses decaying and stuff so i probably am more used to the idea of being made of meat than many people
23:07:53 <Fiora> that reminds me, my mom apparently had some operation on her legs a decade or three ago (I don't remember the details) and she was given that spinal block thingy? so like, you're awake but can't feel anything below the neck
23:08:16 <Fiora> she apparently regrets it, mainly just because it was extremely weird being conscious for like 2 hours while a bunch of doctors did this surgery and acted as if she didn't exist
23:08:16 <Bike> (picture a bike made out of meat)
23:08:22 <Fiora> it was just, like, really unnerving
23:08:30 <Fiora> apparently
23:08:32 <Bike> that sounds kind of boring.
23:08:45 <kmc> yeah
23:08:48 <Fiora> yeah, I imagine it's just really boring, you have to just sort of be there for 2 hours
23:08:54 <Fiora> unable to feel or do anything
23:09:12 <elliott> are you like able to talk
23:09:13 <elliott> or paralysed
23:09:22 <Bike> "hey can i take off while you rearrange my hip? i have like, i could play tetris or something"
23:09:23 <Fiora> Um, I think everything above the neck is normal
23:09:31 <kmc> solution: take LSD first
23:09:37 <kmc> have a jolly time inside your own head
23:09:40 <Fiora> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spinal_anaesthesia oh, this is what it is
23:09:50 <elliott> can always rely on kmc for good advice
23:09:52 <Fiora> it's everything below where they insert the aneshetic I think
23:09:52 <kmc> actually that would probably be horrible
23:09:58 <kmc> yes elliott
23:10:01 <Bike> kmc: yeah that sounds like bad trip city
23:10:16 <Bike> i've heard a proposal that doctors should treat patients under anesthesia as if they were aware, in case of intraoperative awareness
23:10:17 <elliott> imo having an operation on drugs is sort of probably a bad idea for non-trip-related reasons too
23:10:19 <Fiora> oh, I see. it's everything below the abdomen
23:10:30 <Bike> that seems kind of awkward too though
23:10:35 <elliott> Bike: god, I can't imagine that
23:10:45 <Fiora> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epidural or maybe it was this? >_<
23:10:47 <Bike> "hi you may or may not be able to hear me, and definitely can't react, but... well i'm going to take your liver out now"
23:10:49 <elliott> anaesthetic not working is like, the number one scary thing imaginable
23:11:01 <Fiora> yes ;____;
23:11:13 <Bike> i'm a bit curious how it would feel
23:11:28 <Bike> i mean you don't have nociception /inside/ your body right
23:11:38 <Bike> so it would only feel like getting stabbed continuously or whatever
23:11:43 <elliott> they even do like brain surgery without general anaesthetic or something right
23:11:50 <Fiora> I think they do that without it because they have to?
23:11:58 <elliott> swear I've seen that on some silly TV ~medical reality show~
23:12:09 <Bike> stories of brain surgery without anesthetic are basically amazing
23:12:10 <elliott> imo that's the weirdest thing imaginable
23:12:13 <elliott> being conscious and like
23:12:17 <elliott> your brain is literally in the air
23:12:21 <elliott> being poked at.
23:12:25 <Fiora> yeah @___@
23:12:40 <Bike> "ok i'm going to poke this part what's happening" "it sounds like there's an orchestra playing, right over there" <-- ~actual medical hitory~
23:12:43 <Fiora> to imagine, like, a small part of your brain being removed, as you are awake
23:13:02 <Fiora> like how does a computer feel if you zap one of its cpu cores
23:13:05 <elliott> I'm actually, like, surprised you can do all kinds of operations with the person conscious
23:13:13 <elliott> it seems like you'd expect the brain to totally freak and start messing things up somehow
23:14:07 <Bike> well like i said you don't have the ability to perceive that your liver is being removed
23:14:17 <Bike> because... why would you, that doesn't happen in nature
23:14:26 <elliott> well, yeah.
23:14:28 <Bike> so the brain's like "Lol i dunno" i guess
23:14:33 <elliott> but it's still weird.
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23:14:54 <elliott> and like, it's weird that the body is resilient enough to keep you functioning while all kinds of shit are going down with itsi nternal organs.
23:15:26 <kmc> yeah sometimes when they have your brain exposed they poke it with electrodes just to see what happens
23:15:57 <ion> Transcranial magnetic stimulation is interesting, too. A bit less invasive way to poke at the brain.
23:15:57 <Bike> thankfully the body is reasonably modular.
23:16:09 <zzo38> What is your opinion of "relational quantum mechanics"?
23:16:11 <Bike> transcranial magnetic stim is some sci-fi shit, imo
23:16:24 <kmc> ion: they were building a homebrew TMS rig at Noisebridge....................
23:16:33 <kmc> one of the worst ideas I can think of
23:16:40 <Bike> lol
23:16:42 <ion> kmc: “What could possibly go wrong?”
23:18:05 <Bike> it's weird/cool that the foundation of large-scale neuroanatomy is lesion studies, aka "this part of the brain is damaged what's that do" studies
23:18:44 <Bike> kind of a bad way to reverse engineer stuff but it's reasonably effective?
23:19:41 <ion> The talk about when they used TMS to hinder the part of the brain that lets you empathize was interesting.
23:20:16 <kmc> what happened?
23:20:38 <Fiora> did the patients become politicians?
23:20:48 <Bike> Fiora: ok so, i should have remembered this, but like under general anesthesia you don't breathe very well, that's why they put in a tube and all.
23:21:34 <Fiora> oh, huh
23:21:44 <Fiora> do they like have a pump that runs it, or...?
23:21:49 <Bike> yeah
23:22:08 <elliott> Bike: going to have to ask you to never become an anaesthetist
23:22:18 <Bike> why would i ever do that
23:22:21 <Bike> also why
23:22:24 <Bike> can i not
23:22:35 <elliott> well you, like, forgot it stops you breathing very well.
23:22:42 <elliott> one strike and you're out as far as I'm concerned.
23:22:52 <Bike> ok granted
23:23:10 <Fiora> so like, it's possible to breathe with a tube that just cycles air? like, without diaphragm movement?
23:23:47 <Bike> btw this is medicine not biology so i disclaim responsibility to know anything
23:24:04 <ion> People were told three hypothetical scenarios: person A thinks they gave person B sugar but it was poison; A thinks they gave B poison but it was sugar; A thinks they gave B poison and succeeded. They weren’t told what the TMS was doing and were asked how big punsishment A should get. For the first case, the average punishment got higher with TMS. For the second case, it got lower. For the third case, it
23:24:06 <ion> didn’t change.
23:24:13 <Bike> Fiora: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Endotracheal_tube_colored.png it's, like. i think they're basically pumping the lungs here.
23:24:41 <Fiora> Huh
23:25:24 <Bike> i don't think they do that whole 9 yards for just anesthesia though (btw: can we change the spelling of "anesthesia" holy shit fuck)
23:25:27 <elliott> ion: TMS?
23:25:36 <elliott> Bike: it's anaesthesia.
23:25:42 <elliott> so: done.
23:25:42 <Fiora> so like, how does the tube help without a pump?
23:25:42 <ion> elliott: Transcranial magnetic stimulation. hth
23:26:13 <Bike> well i think the main issue with someone under anesthesia is that their mouth and trachea and stuff isn't working, rather than that the lungs stop?
23:26:37 <Bike> so they put the tube in so that they don't have to worry about them choking to death because they forgot to keep their airway open
23:26:48 <elliott> ion: ok well, link
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23:26:52 <ion> I think it was this talk. http://www.ted.com/talks/rebecca_saxe_how_brains_make_moral_judgments.html?source=butt
23:27:12 <elliott> oh it wasn't a copy-paste.
23:27:34 <Fiora> Bike: ahhh
23:27:35 <Bike> btw there's apparently a word for going crazy when you come out of GA, which is a shame because i was going to call it "elliottism"
23:27:37 <oerjan> <Fiora> like how does a computer feel if you zap one of its cpu cores <-- "Dave, my mind is going."
23:28:11 <Fiora> daisy daisy, give me your answer do
23:28:39 <ion> Yeah, that’s the talk.
23:32:37 <ion> “Although TMS is often regarded as safe, the greatest acute risk of TMS is the rare occurrence of induced seizures. More than 16 cases of TMS-related seizures have been reported in the literature” Have fun getting trying the new brain seizure rig at our hackerspace.
23:32:42 <Bike> Fiora: apparently iron lungs work pretty simply, by keeping the chest in a chamber with oscillating air pressure. so like if the atmospheric pressure inside the iron lung is higher than the human lung, the lung breathes out, and vice versa
23:32:58 <Fiora> that... makes a lot of sense o_O
23:33:05 <Bike> i know right, i had no idea
23:33:11 <Bike> who knew lungs were so simple
23:33:16 <ion> I love lungs.
23:34:08 <Bike> i said simple, not easy
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23:37:50 <Bike> the replacement for iron lungs is basically a thing you put on your chest http://www.polioplace.org/sites/default/files/artifacts/AKcuirass_2.jpg
23:37:57 <Bike> very fashionable
23:38:36 <Jafet> source=butt
23:39:40 <Bike> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ikCgKn8r7to wow this is great. "masks are inadequate. what if we just encased the entire head instead?"
23:44:47 <ion> What if we just encased the entire human instead?
23:44:51 <ion> What if we just encased the entire planet instead?
23:45:35 <Bike> ion for surgeon general
23:45:48 <ion> The slowed-down video from 0:45 on looks freaky.
23:46:14 <shachaf> ion: Should I start using ’?
23:46:16 <elliott> Bike: ok what is the wor.
23:46:17 <elliott> d.
23:46:21 <Bike> what
23:46:28 <ion> shachaf: Have you stopped beating your wife yet?
23:46:28 <elliott> elliottism
23:46:33 <shachaf> ion: In Unicode, ' is called APOSTROPHE, and ’ is called RIGHT SINGLE QUOTATION MARK.
23:46:36 <Bike> 'agitated emergence'
23:46:45 <elliott> also that iron lung replacement does not look very comfortable
23:46:54 <Bike> have you seen iron lungs
23:46:58 <elliott> well, yes.
23:47:02 <Bike> pretty much anything is an improvement on that
23:47:33 <elliott> I dunno, I could totally chill in an iron lung. you could fit a laptop in there.
23:47:42 <Bike> http://www.polioplace.org/sites/default/files/imagecache/front_slideshow/front/cuirass_-_ed_rosenwasse_1960.jpg see this guy is just chilling
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23:47:46 <ion> Why isn’t 1:25 slowed down? D-:
23:47:49 <elliott> whereas that picture is pretty not-laptop-friendly, imo.
23:47:52 <Bike> elliott: but... you couldn't see it...
23:48:02 <elliott> okay that guy does look pretty happy
23:48:19 <elliott> Bike: look, the important thing is that it's there.
23:48:19 <Bike> just reading this huge magazine
23:49:06 <Bike> "it is important that i have my laptop, even if i can't interact with it in any meaningful way
23:49:49 <ion> I like how the artist thought 2:17 would be the perfect time to add claps.
23:50:31 <Bike> elliott, stricken by polio, nonetheless bravely soldiers on to insult bikeologists
23:51:02 <shachaf> I,I stricken by dolio
23:51:25 <elliott> Bike: I could get, like, a braille display.
23:51:41 <elliott> can you move your arms around in iron lungs. I don't even know
23:51:54 <Bike> i think you can
23:52:02 <Bike> also shachaf what's dolio?
23:52:09 <shachaf> Bike: dolio is p. great
23:52:20 <ion> It’s like Dike.
23:52:37 <Bike> http://cache.wists.com/thumbnails/c/08/c085c71e9fefc3c5710e9bbc75af80e7-orig wow there are some amazing images here
23:52:42 <ion> Iron lung would be a great superpower.
23:52:42 <elliott> ok wait hold up, if you're in an iron lung and you get an itch on your head what the fuck do you do
23:52:51 <Bike> scream, forever
23:53:03 <elliott> wow that image is depressing
23:53:03 <shachaf> elliott: you haven't learned to will itches away yet??
23:53:11 <ion> elliott: Or the urge to lick your toes
23:53:23 <shachaf> ill witches
23:53:35 <Bike> elliott: http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/goldenage/wonder/Archive/Images/Iron%20Lungs.jpg behold, the lungpocalypse.
23:54:29 <elliott> yeah I've seen that image before
23:54:37 <elliott> I think.
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