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00:31:23 <tswett> Man, I wish my computer viruses affected my files in the 'right way'.
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00:36:42 <tswett> Hmmm. How about a programming language based entirely on indirection.
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00:39:41 <madbr> why are CPUs still slow
00:39:49 <tswett> They aren't. They're very fast.
00:39:54 <tswett> You're just trying to do too many calculations.
00:40:38 <madbr> they're optimized for like Ms-Excel
00:41:10 <madbr> and other similar awful computation tasks that are just a jumble of load/stores and jumps
00:41:57 <madbr> we're in 2013, where's my 32xfloat wide SIMD
00:44:16 <madbr> the GPUs are doing it already
00:47:26 <tswett> Ooh, here's an idea. Co-lambda calculus.
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00:55:10 <tswett> How about co-BCKW calculus. The combinators are defined like so: B x y z = x (y z); C x y z = x z y; K x = x y; W x y y = x y.
00:56:23 <tswett> When you evaluate K x, it creates a new variable and applies x to it. When you evaluate W x y z, it adds the equation y = z and gives you x y.
00:57:05 <tswett> Whenever there's an outstanding equation... I dunno.
00:58:21 <Bike> I dunno either.
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01:33:46 <shachaf> kmc: i heard mountain view is the place to be
01:34:03 <kmc> well it depends
01:34:06 <Bike> are all non-strict haskell functions constant
01:34:12 <Bike> also hello from dorm/prison cell
01:34:14 <kmc> do you like ``the city'' or no
01:34:49 <kmc> Bike: (1:) is non-strict and non-constant
01:34:57 <shachaf> i imagine that i'd enjoy living there but who knows
01:35:39 <shachaf> Just is non-strict and non-constant
01:36:15 <Bike> ok yeah constructors that makes sense
01:36:31 <lambdabot> Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type:
01:36:33 <Bike> and i'm at school.
01:36:44 <lambdabot> [1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,...
01:37:33 <Bike> so bottom isn't a fixed point of 1:.
01:38:20 <shachaf> the least-defined fixed point of (1:) is [1,1,1,...
01:38:31 <kmc> there are non-strict non-constant functions that aren't equivalent to constructors, though
01:39:25 <kmc> :t let f x = (let Just y = x in Just (y+1)) in f
01:39:37 <kmc> there's probably a simpler example
01:39:54 <kmc> this maps Just x to Just (x+1), and Nothing to Just undefined
01:40:13 <kmc> and undefined also to Just undefined
01:40:13 <Bike> > let f x = (let Just y = x in Just (y+1)) in f 4
01:40:14 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Show.Show a0)
01:40:14 <lambdabot> arising from a use of `M1929720252.sh...
01:40:21 <Bike> > let f x = (let Just y = x in Just (y+1)) in f Just 4
01:40:22 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `a2 -> t0'
01:40:25 <Bike> > let f x = (let Just y = x in Just (y+1)) in f $ Just 4
01:40:40 <Bike> > let f x = (let Just y = x in Just (y+1)) in f undefine
01:40:41 <lambdabot> Perhaps you meant `undefined' (imported from Prel...
01:40:41 <Bike> > let f x = (let Just y = x in Just (y+1)) in f undefined
01:40:42 <lambdabot> Just *Exception: Prelude.undefined
01:40:47 <kmc> weird function imo
01:41:48 <kmc> throwing numbers into the mix is a little confusing because the strictness of (+) etc. depends on the particular Num instance
01:41:51 <Bike> > let f x = (let Just y = x in Just (y+1)) in fix f
01:42:42 <Bike> > let f x = (let Just y = x in Just (y+1)) in f Nothing
01:42:43 <lambdabot> Just *Exception: <interactive>:3:16-25: Irrefutable pattern failed for patt...
01:44:12 <shachaf> do you classify things like if' :: Bool -> a -> a -> a under "constant function"
01:44:24 <kmc> shachaf: when Blake and I lived in Manhattan he complained all the time about how terrible the city is, so I guess it's not surprising that he wants to live in MV and not SF
01:44:45 <Bike> shachaf: i don't understand what that is.
01:45:04 <shachaf> Bike: if' True x y = x; if' False x y = y
01:45:13 <Bike> what's the other a
01:45:20 <shachaf> It's often given as an example of a kind of thing you can do with non-strictness.
01:45:28 <shachaf> Bike: the return value hth
01:45:40 <Bike> uuuuugh just a sec
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01:53:24 <tswett> > iterate (\x -> "¿" ++ x ++ "?") ":"
01:53:24 <lambdabot> [":","\191:?","\191\191:??","\191\191\191:???","\191\191\191\191:????","\19...
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02:01:29 <kmc> > text "\u2e18"
02:01:30 <lambdabot> lexical error in string/character literal at character 'u'
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02:39:37 <nooodl_> > text $ unwords $ take 20 $ iterate (\x -> "¿" ++ x ++ "?") ":"
02:39:37 <lambdabot> : ¿:? ¿¿:?? ¿¿¿:??? ¿¿¿¿:???? ¿¿¿¿¿:????? ¿¿¿¿¿¿:?????...
02:44:36 <tswett> ¿?¿¿?¿?¿¿?¿¿?¿?¿¿?¿?¿¿?¿¿?¿?¿¿?¿¿?¿?¿¿?¿?¿¿?¿¿?¿?¿¿?¿?¿¿?¿¿?¿?¿¿?¿¿?¿?¿¿?¿?¿¿?¿¿?¿?¿¿?¿¿?¿?¿¿?¿?¿¿?¿¿?¿?¿¿?¿?¿¿?¿¿?¿?¿¿?¿¿?¿?¿¿?¿?¿¿?¿¿?¿?¿¿?¿?¿
02:48:24 <tswett> Is there an infinite sequence S of 1s and 0s such that for all finite sequences T of 1s and 0s, there exists a natural number N such that for all substrings S' of S of length at least N, T is a substring of S'?
02:49:08 <tswett> Suppose that the sequence "1" appears, oh, in every substring of length at least 8. Then the sequence "00000000" doesn't occur at all. Qed.
02:49:26 <tswett> All right, what Very Important thing was I doing...
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03:20:40 <Jafet> Is there an infinite sequence S of 1s and 0s that encodes every interesting theorem about infinite sequences of 1s and 0s
03:21:23 <tswett> There are uncountably many.
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03:34:30 <madbr> is there a pattern of binary or trinary digits that stays the same or mostly the same when multiplied by 3^n / 2^m
03:34:43 <madbr> (where n and m can be any integer)
03:35:24 <madbr> or that evolves but in a relatively ordered way (like, game of life ordered)
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03:43:48 <zzo38> Do you like Fukumoto's mangas?
03:45:14 <zzo38> I read it I think it is very good.
03:46:32 <zzo38> It seems that Akagi declares no-ten riichi a lot more than good mahjong players would ordinarily do.
03:47:02 <zzo38> They also make a lot of extreme bluffs and tricks and that stuff.
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04:59:26 <zzo38> Is there such a thing as a "free ring" (as in mathematical)?
05:16:10 <zzo38> I have an idea of what I want, but I don't know if that is what will be called a "free ring".
05:16:27 <kmc> what is it
05:17:06 <zzo38> Well, actually what I am wanting is probably what should be called a "free commutative ring".
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05:18:40 <zzo38> If there is a set "S" and the elements of this ring is multisets made up of elements of S (or lists if you omit "commutative"), and then it is a multiset of these multisets, is what I mean.
05:20:18 <zzo38> (Well, you must consider they can be negative too, if it is a ring rather than a semiring, I think)
05:22:39 <zzo38> Therefore, it is a signed multiset of these multisets?
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05:51:08 <coppro> help i think homestuck is broken
05:58:51 <Taneb> coppro, I'm feeling bored and stupid, what OS should I attempt to install on my laptop
05:59:50 <zzo38> Depend what you require
06:00:13 <zzo38> If you want to load fast and simple then install FreeDOS
06:00:17 <Taneb> zzo38, I really don't require anything for my laptop, I barely use it
06:01:02 <Bike> http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/4784 wow ltu is good
06:01:16 <Bike> (seriously why is this allowed though)
06:02:04 <zzo38> Taneb: Well, if you don't have a computer with FreeDOS then maybe install that one. If you don't have a computer with Linux then maybe you should install Linux.
06:02:15 <Bike> »Turnstile (⊢) shouldn't scare you. It was invented long ago by Frege and is standard mathematical notation. It is not "mumbo-jumbo".«
06:02:42 <Taneb> zzo38, I use Ubuntu pretty much exclusively. Some people say that's Linux
06:02:46 <Bike> I see that you are a strong advocate of Wikipedia including its policies of censorship, outlawry, and vilification of academics by anonymous Administrators.
06:02:49 <Taneb> FreeDOS does not interest me
06:03:08 <zzo38> Ubuntu is one Linux distribution.
06:04:06 <zzo38> Maybe you can install ReactOS, if you are OK that it still isn't quite ready yet.
06:04:24 <zzo38> But from what I can tell, FreeDOS is loading and running much faster than the other one.
06:05:30 <zzo38> If the computer and CRT is turned on at the same time it will already be loaded when the picture is visible.
06:05:39 <Bike> who uses a crt
06:05:59 <zzo38> I am using that for comparison.
06:06:54 <zzo38> Linux and Windows takes long time to start.
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06:07:27 <Taneb> I was thinking about a different Linux
06:07:56 <zzo38> OK, install a different Linux distribution. (I don't know which one you want.)
06:10:01 <Taneb> Bike, I don't know much about nix
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06:13:33 <Bike> taneb: is that a problem
06:18:03 <Taneb> I'll give it a go :)
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06:35:39 <Taneb> Okay, now I have an SD card that has the power to boot nixOS
06:36:18 <kmc> fuck yeah nixos
06:37:27 <kmc> please provide nixos trip report
06:39:08 <Taneb> Decided to go for the minimum install
06:39:55 <Taneb> An error occured in stage 1 of the boot process
06:40:07 <shachaf> i, too, would be interested in a nixos trip report
06:40:19 <kmc> shachaf: do you like my ongoing [rust trip report]
06:40:42 <kmc> it goes on
06:40:54 <elliott> is that anything like kmc's other trip reports?
06:41:04 <elliott> yes it's a drugz joke I'm sorry
06:41:23 <kmc> i haven't given many trip reports here I think
06:41:32 <shachaf> elliott: i think that was kmc's drugz joke
06:42:08 <shachaf> elliott, punch-line pincher
06:43:19 <Taneb> Decided to run Memtest and now my screen is full of dots
06:43:49 <shachaf> kmc: can we have another trip report
06:44:07 <shachaf> are you supposed to produce trip reports during or after
06:45:28 <kmc> check erowid
06:45:43 <kmc> they say write drunk, edit sober
06:46:49 <shachaf> what if it's a drugz that makes you more sober than usual
06:46:51 <elliott> is kmc going to put his rust trip report on erowid
06:47:36 <Taneb> Update: my screen is still full of dots
06:47:46 <shachaf> kmc: should i bring the mölkky back with me
06:47:59 <shachaf> i'd need something to put it in
06:48:05 <kmc> zardoz has spoken
06:51:33 <shachaf> kmc: why do mozilla server people get +q and +o simultaneously
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06:56:28 <Taneb> Still dots but they make a different noise
06:59:27 <kmc> tempest for eliza
07:04:35 <Taneb> Still dots, same noise
07:06:45 <shachaf> same as the original or as the different
07:07:41 <Taneb> The noise comes from the fan
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07:32:39 <Taneb> The dots have stopped while I was having breakfast
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07:36:43 <Jafet> `rungcc struct timespec t; clock_getres(CLOCK_REALTIME, &t); printf("%ld\n", t->tv_nsec);
07:36:49 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: rungcc: not found
07:36:56 <Jafet> `gccrun struct timespec t; clock_getres(CLOCK_REALTIME, &t); printf("%ld\n", t->tv_nsec);
07:37:00 <HackEgo> /tmp/gccrun.wwnAiEwf/command.c: In function ‘main’: \ /tmp/gccrun.wwnAiEwf/command.c:20: error: ‘CLOCK_REALTIME’ undeclared (first use in this function) \ /tmp/gccrun.wwnAiEwf/command.c:20: error: (Each undeclared identifier is reported only once \ /tmp/gccrun.wwnAiEwf/command.c:20: error: for each function it appears in.) \ /tmp/gccrun.
07:38:50 <Jafet> `run echo $'#include <time.h>\n#include <stdio.h>\nmain(){struct timespec t; clock_getres(CLOCK_REALTIME, &t); printf("%ld\n", t->tv_nsec);}\n' > /tmp/tmp.c && gcc /tmp/tmp.c -o /tmp/tmp -std=gnu99 -lrt && /tmp/tmp
07:38:52 <HackEgo> /tmp/tmp.c:3: warning: return type defaults to ‘int’ \ /tmp/tmp.c:3:68: warning: missing terminating " character \ /tmp/tmp.c: In function ‘main’: \ /tmp/tmp.c:3: error: missing terminating " character \ /tmp/tmp.c:4:1: warning: missing terminating " character \ /tmp/tmp.c:4: error: missing terminating " character \ /tmp/tmp.c:4: error:
07:39:21 <Jafet> `run echo $'#include <time.h>\n#include <stdio.h>\nmain(){struct timespec t; clock_getres(CLOCK_REALTIME, &t); printf("%ld", t->tv_nsec);}\n' > /tmp/tmp.c && gcc /tmp/tmp.c -o /tmp/tmp -std=gnu99 -lrt && /tmp/tmp
07:39:23 <HackEgo> /tmp/tmp.c:3: warning: return type defaults to ‘int’ \ /tmp/tmp.c: In function ‘main’: \ /tmp/tmp.c:3: error: invalid type argument of ‘->’ (have ‘struct timespec’)
07:39:47 <Jafet> `run sed -i -e 's/->/./' /tmp/tmp.c && gcc /tmp/tmp.c -o /tmp/tmp -std=gnu99 -lrt && /tmp/tmp
07:39:49 <HackEgo> sed: can't read /tmp/tmp.c: No such file or directory
07:43:33 <Jafet> `run echo $'#include <time.h>\n#include <stdio.h>\nint main(){struct timespec t; clock_getres(CLOCK_REALTIME, &t); printf("%ld ns", t.tv_nsec);}\n' > /tmp/tmp.c && gcc /tmp/tmp.c -o /tmp/tmp -std=gnu99 -lrt && /tmp/tmp
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08:14:15 <shachaf> kmc: E.g. https://github.com/jeremywohl/nacl/blob/master/crypto_verify/16/ref/verify.c , it looks like.
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10:04:46 <lambdabot> oerjan said 1d 13h 10m 34s ago: my impression of my dreams is that they're a window into something profoundly lacking in logical structure.
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11:16:24 <katla> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dHhjwwSZ9MA
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12:22:24 <fizzie> Huh, weird. "lvs" shows a couple of logical volumes, but they don't show up in dmsetup ls.
12:23:38 <fizzie> Their status is "NOT available". Hm.
12:24:15 <fizzie> I guess maybe I need to lvchange -ay them, or something.
12:32:21 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/RWDP that's probably not a good sign.
12:32:54 <fizzie> [198553.606614] quiet_error: 2563528 callbacks suppressed that neither.
12:33:24 <fizzie> (I'm going through a pile of disks I found, to see if there's anything interesting before wiping them/throwing them away.)
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13:21:29 <fizzie> "Detect disks done, no any drive found."
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13:26:26 <Deewiant> Try ddrescue if you're interested in whether those erroring directories have anything.
13:27:43 <fizzie> I'm not that interested in this particular case.
13:28:30 <fizzie> (Since they're (probably) just failed disks from earlier RAID setups I've kept for no particular reason.)
13:53:32 <fizzie> Wonder why dd|nc over a gigabit-ethernet link is so slow. (Switched to using an old computer because the rest of the disks were IDE, and my USB dock only does SATA.)
13:54:35 <fizzie> Oh, the old box only has a 100BaseT network chip in it. Well, that explains it.
13:56:29 <fizzie> (It's doing 93.3 Mbps.)
13:59:14 <fizzie> Maybe I should've done the snooping on the computer in question, locally, instead of doing this copying stuff; it's going to take like four hours to copy this 160G disk image over.
14:01:16 <fizzie> That could be worth the effort for the next partition. (Don't want to stop this current operation.)
14:01:34 <fizzie> Wonder if just dd | gzip | nc ... nc | gzip > file will work.
14:01:54 <Deewiant> You probably want gzip -d on the other end; other than that it should.
14:02:24 <Deewiant> Make sure that gzip isn't too slow, though.
14:04:09 <fizzie> What's that fast-but-okay compression thing, lzo?
14:04:25 <Deewiant> The command-line program is called lzop.
14:04:43 <fizzie> Will try that out, then.
14:05:27 <fizzie> I'd also try restarting the dd if it allowed a "skip=" argument in bytes instead of just as a multiple of ibs/bs.
14:05:58 <Deewiant> treat 'skip=N' as a byte count (iflag only)
14:06:19 <fizzie> I've been looking for that for *years*! Is that a new thing?
14:06:54 <fizzie> It's at the very end of the flags list, I think it might be.
14:06:54 <Deewiant> It seems like the kind of thing that tends to be GNU-only, but I don't know how new it is.
14:07:10 <fizzie> dd: add 'skip_bytes' and 'count_bytes' operands Date: Sun, 05 Feb 2012 13:25:46 +0100
14:07:18 <fizzie> Well, new or not, very nice.
14:08:30 <Deewiant> It's been suggested at least as early as 2008, when this was given as a workaround (evidently found in 'info dd'): (dd bs=1 skip=123456 count=0 && dd bs=8192)
14:08:58 <fizzie> Heh, I've just been using bs=1 skip=N directly and lived with the speed.
14:09:42 <Deewiant> Author: Jim Meyering <jim@meyering.net>
14:09:44 <Deewiant> Date: Sat Dec 2 08:12:56 2000 +0000
14:09:46 <Deewiant> Undo most of the changes since 2000-11-24, since we've
14:09:48 <Deewiant> documented a standard way to do it.
14:09:50 <Deewiant> (skip_bytes, seek_bytes): Remove.
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14:11:01 <Deewiant> Author: Jérémy Compostella <jeremy.compostella@gmail.com>
14:11:03 <Deewiant> Date: Sat Feb 4 15:25:54 2012 +0100
14:11:05 <Deewiant> dd: add count_bytes, skip_bytes and seek_bytes flags
14:11:17 <fizzie> "dd: invalid input flag: `skip_bytes'" aw, dang.
14:11:20 <Deewiant> Author: Jim Meyering <jim@meyering.net>
14:11:21 <Deewiant> Date: Sat Nov 25 08:54:58 2000 +0000
14:11:25 <Deewiant> adapt skip to skip either by bytes or by blocks
14:11:55 <Deewiant> So originally added 2000-11-25, then removed a week later with the documented workaround, and then reädded 2012-02-04.
14:12:05 <Deewiant> I wonder if they just forgot that they didn't intend to add it.
14:14:28 <Deewiant> Anyway, that's GNU coreutils 8.16 or newer, then.
14:14:39 <fizzie> root@dumper:~# dd --version
14:14:52 <fizzie> Should've deboostrap jessie'd instead of debootstrap wheezy'ing.
14:15:05 <fizzie> I don't really know why I went with wheezy anyway.
14:18:08 <fizzie> Gads, coreutils' configure is incredibly long.
14:18:20 <Deewiant> stat no longer reports a negative file size as a huge positive number.
14:18:22 <Deewiant> [bug present since 'stat' was introduced in fileutils-4.1.9]
14:18:22 <fizzie> I suppose it makes sense it tests every single thing known to man, but anyway.
14:20:26 <fizzie> "core/coreutils-8.21/src/dd if=/dev/sda1 bs=32M skip=15639748608 iflag=skip_bytes | lzop | nc 10.102.76.2 14141" yay
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14:21:47 <fizzie> Annnd... it does 70 Mbit/s.
14:24:04 <fizzie> Curiously enough, top says 80% CPU idle, so it's not bound by that.
14:26:37 <Deewiant> Was that the speed across the network link or in total
14:27:03 <fizzie> In total, looking at the resulting file size.
14:27:15 <fizzie> Bah, I'll just let it copy as it likes.
14:27:27 <Deewiant> Is the receiving end CPU-bound? :-P
14:29:59 <fizzie> It certainly shouldn't.
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14:30:31 <fizzie> CPU use 13% and it's keeping all four cores at 0.8 GHz (the lowest setting).
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14:32:12 <fizzie> Now the plain copy is also writing 75 Mbps. The strangest.
14:32:13 <fizzie> I mean, it could theoretically be IO-bound on the receiving end, but e.g. the RAID resync on this disk was fast as anything.
14:33:01 <Deewiant> If it's a brokenish disk then it's of course likely to slow down in certain areas.
14:33:26 <fizzie> This one shouldn't (knocking on wood) be broken, it's just the disk that was in the old box before.
14:33:58 <Deewiant> Well, being old is enough to make it likely, I think. AIUI it can happen a lot even in new disks.
14:34:48 <fizzie> I *could* try a plain dd-to-null read benchmark, but I'm not sure I care to.
14:36:07 <Deewiant> http://static.usenix.org/event/hotos/tech/final_files/Krevat.pdf
14:36:09 <Deewiant> "[U]nder normal operation, disk bandwidth to/from corresponding regions of a set of disks can be expected to vary by 20% or more from the fastest to the slowest."
14:36:45 <Deewiant> Ah, that quote's more about performance between seemingly identical disks. Well, it refers to intradisk variance too.
14:37:16 <fizzie> I'd still expect a bit more than 10 MB/s out of it.
14:37:24 <fizzie> I can't ever read the smartctl --all output at all.
14:39:10 <fizzie> The rest of the disks are fortunately going to be smaller.
14:39:39 <Deewiant> Having a lot of reällocated sectors is one indicator, at least.
14:41:22 <fizzie> 80G, 250G, 2.5G, 120G and 30G. Huh, one's even bigger.
14:41:39 <fizzie> The big one has "broken @64M" scribbled on top of it.
14:41:49 <fizzie> 5 Reallocated_Sector_Ct 0x0033 100 100 005 Pre-fail Always - 0
14:53:21 <fizzie> Was thinking maybe a filesystem-level copy for the second partition would be smarter, but it's 102G used of 115G in df, so probably not much of a win.
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16:48:58 <zzo38> There was the ZZT game "The Secret of Cannibal Island" and I like the music, so I made a .NSF with more fancy music such as adding chords; it is 2A03+VRC7. It seems like pretty good in my opinion! It is: http://2a03.free.fr/dl.php?file=4151 for binary, http://2a03.free.fr/dl.php?file=4150 for source.
16:51:45 <zzo38> I cannot find the Wikipedia articles for a free ring; it redirects to something else.
16:51:54 <coppro> zzo38: try the arxiv maybe
16:52:00 <coppro> or a proper academic library
16:52:08 <coppro> way better than wikipedia
16:52:37 <katla> what is a free ring
16:52:38 <zzo38> Yes, it might help, but I wrote this idea of what I thought might be a "free ring" and a "free commutative ring"; do you know any things about free ring?
16:52:56 <katla> zzo38, i dont think any one uses the term
16:53:23 <zzo38> Did I write about it correctly though?
16:53:38 <katla> what did you write
16:54:36 <zzo38> An element of a free ring over a set S is a signed multiset of lists of elements from S.
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16:55:18 <katla> is that like polynomials in S?
16:55:39 <zzo38> A bit like that, I think.
16:56:22 <zzo38> (If it is a free commutative ring, then it should be "of multisets" rather than "of lists".)
16:56:47 <Bike> a set, not a field?
16:57:17 <zzo38> Yes, a set, not a field, is what I an trying to mean (I don't know what it is called but I thought it might be called a free ring).
16:58:22 <katla> it might be callled the ring of polynomials
16:59:22 <katla> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polynomial_ring#The_polynomial_ring_in_several_variables no?
17:00:44 <fizzie> zzo38: Do you happen to know what are these "Xnn" effects I see in some S3M files?
17:01:45 <zzo38> fizzie: I think it is panning?
17:02:17 <fizzie> It seems to be panning in Impulse Tracker and others.
17:02:28 <fizzie> The official Scream Tracker help files don't mention X at all.
17:03:03 <fizzie> (It has S8x for setting pan position.)
17:03:06 <zzo38> katla: OK, well, "free commutative ring" does seem like it might be what I have defined, although they give a different definition.
17:03:57 <zzo38> fizzie: I don't know, then. I have OpenMPT for playing .S3M and so on, so I tried creating a new file and entering a "X" effect and it says it is panning.
17:04:09 <Deewiant> fizzie: It's worth checking whether Scream Tracker itself does anything with them. They could be extensions.
17:05:11 <fizzie> Deewiant: Scream Tracker doesn't support panning except on GUS, though. Schism (which AIUI is an Impulse Tracker clone) does panning with it.
17:05:17 <zzo38> katla: (I think their definition probably ends up being equivalent to what I am thinking of, though.)
17:05:27 <fizzie> I guess the X values in this file would make sense if it were panning.
17:06:25 <zzo38> fizzie: Then perhaps at least in that file, it is supposed to be panning.
17:10:57 <zzo38> (Wikipedia doesn't seem to have anything about "signed multiset", except for the "Free abelian groups are formal sums...they may be seen as signed finite multisets..." paragraph, and this is what I mean by "signed multiset".)
17:11:45 <katla> are you using thse free rings for anythin
17:12:39 <zzo38> I think a multimana in Icosahedral RPG makes free commutative ring over the set {w,u,b,r,g}.
17:13:19 <zzo38> So yes I am using these free rings for something.
17:14:39 <zzo38> It is certainly different than other systems.
17:31:48 <elliott> "Communication of delicious has not been included because to children all confectionery, especially
17:31:51 <elliott> chocolate confectionery, is delicious."
17:32:07 <elliott> this marketing report thing about a relaunch of Curly-Wurlys is great and I have no idea why I am reading it
17:32:26 -!- elliott has set topic: Communication of deilcious has not been included | Хммм, тхис стуфф реаллы сеемс то ворк | 22nd IOCCC is open: http://ioccc.org/2013/rules.txt | jsvine is doing an esolang survey! https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1OvEsdBioOFcXFAiscO34kctUWKs3dWQs5-ZouXdwy9Q/viewform | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric.
17:32:33 -!- elliott has set topic: Communication of delicious has not been included | Хммм, тхис стуфф реаллы сеемс то ворк | 22nd IOCCC is open: http://ioccc.org/2013/rules.txt | jsvine is doing an esolang survey! https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1OvEsdBioOFcXFAiscO34kctUWKs3dWQs5-ZouXdwy9Q/viewform | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric.
17:33:29 <Deewiant> Does Cyrillic script count as an esolang or why is it in the topic
17:36:37 <Deewiant> The language is, but the alphabet used isn't
17:36:52 <elliott> I agree, that is not the English alphabet
17:37:06 <Deewiant> Just wondering if there's a point to it
17:37:42 <Taneb> Only one person knows that
17:39:11 <elliott> "These ideas were put into qualitative research in animatic form and exposed to children aged 6–11
17:39:14 <elliott> years old. Children under 6 were excluded because they are a little too young to use in research."
17:43:25 <fizzie> It's just like animal testing, except with children.
18:02:35 <kmc> my girlfriend served as an adult control subject for some behavioral research on children
18:02:51 <kmc> so like they had her hold a stuffed animal and spin in circles and then try to walk in a straight line, or something
18:03:19 <kmc> the stuffed animal is just to make the kids not freak out, but they can't very well omit that in the control!
18:03:30 <shachaf> fizzie: not so much "except" as "in particular"
18:03:33 <zzo38> Would the kind of stuffed animal and the kind of tiles on the floor affect something?
18:06:23 <kmc> shachaf: what's with the return expression in that code
18:07:31 <elliott> kmc: can you get good money for that
18:07:42 <elliott> I am totally up for being a professional stuffed-animal-holder-and-circle-spinner
18:07:51 <kmc> she did live on psych studies for a year yeah
18:08:31 <Fiora> can I be a professional stuffed animal holder
18:08:49 <kmc> nacl constant time compare
18:08:49 <Jafet> Is there a control protocol where you don't use people who live off being sociology test subjects
18:09:17 <kmc> just psych studies, not like medical studies where they inject you with things
18:09:35 <zzo38> Jafet: Yes, it might be good idea having such a control protocol to avoid that kind of bias.
18:09:39 <kmc> she did one study at MIT Media Lab that involved collaborating with robots to rescue survivors of an earthquake, or something
18:09:42 <kmc> that sounded pretty fun
18:09:53 <kmc> another one where she had to brush her teeth and open doors with her non-dominant hand for 2 weeks
18:09:58 <kmc> which was like a willpower training thing
18:10:52 <shachaf> kmc: I think it always returns -1 differentbits is nonzero.
18:10:58 <Deewiant> And report how often she lapsed to her dominant hand, or what?
18:11:55 <elliott> `addquote <+kmc> my girlfriend served as an adult control subject for some behavioral research on children [...] <+kmc> she did live on psych studies for a year yeah <Jafet> Is there a control protocol where you don't use people who live off being sociology test subjects
18:12:00 <HackEgo> 1087) <+kmc> my girlfriend served as an adult control subject for some behavioral research on children [...] <+kmc> she did live on psych studies for a year yeah <Jafet> Is there a control protocol where you don't use people who live off being sociology test subjects
18:12:30 <kmc> Deewiant: no; they had some willpower-testing task before and after the 2 weeks
18:12:42 <kmc> yeah the sample bias is unfortunate
18:13:58 <kmc> remember how a few years back the FCC auctioned off billions of dollars of radio spectrum? that auction was designed according to studies done on my friends in college
18:14:00 <shachaf> (By nonzero I mean 1-255.)
18:14:21 <kmc> who used the proceeds from the auction games to buy weed and plastic ball pit balls
18:15:13 <Jafet> I want a plastic ball pit
18:15:13 <elliott> wait, what did they study?
18:15:14 <shachaf> billions of dollars' worth, i hope
18:15:18 <olsner> why would they need to design a new kind of auction for that?
18:15:30 <kmc> i'm not sure
18:16:14 <olsner> maybe they could've just redone the auction until they were satisfied with the result
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19:32:44 <fizzie> Disk-dumping news: the 3.5G disk is causing like 30-second delays before BIOS detects them, and now "ata1: link is slow to respond, please be patient (ready=0)" "ata1: SRST failed" errors on boot.
19:32:49 <fizzie> It seems: quite flaky.
19:34:13 <fizzie> "sda: sda1 sda2 < sda5 sda6 >" well, at least it found some partitions there.
19:35:49 <fizzie> Copying seems to work fine.
19:36:39 <fizzie> There also seems to be DOS (w/ 4DOS) and Windows for Workgroups 3.11 on it.
19:38:16 <fizzie> But also a \BOOT directory with GRUB, some kernel, and a couple of what I think are boot floppy images.
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19:39:10 <fizzie> Hm, seems that there's been Windows 98 installed with F:\ as the system drive. Curious configuration.
19:42:14 <fizzie> (It's also making this clicking sort of noise when I write on it.)
19:43:26 <fizzie> And The Incredible Machine 3.
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20:19:18 <zzo38> Although I cannot put the Uselessness RPG stuff in a git repository and it won't help (and because I am working on paper), but maybe it can help if the stuff from the paper can also be put in some wiki; that way all idea can be written and discussed too.
20:24:47 <Koen_> I fucking hate git repositories right now
20:25:30 <Koen_> my new school uses one to collect our work and we lose all access rights when the due time is over
20:26:10 <Koen_> and you get this annoying "could not read from remote repository, please check that you have the correct access rights" if you try to git push one second too late
20:26:58 <Koen_> and every night at 23h42 you can hear screams of despair from every student who got that message
20:27:16 <Koen_> and also cries of victory from those who pushed one second before the deadline
20:29:24 <olsner> the perils of shturmovshchina
20:31:08 <Koen_> also there were those who did the work *not at the last moment* but that's cheating imo
20:32:34 <olsner> you should switch to something more ancient like CVS
20:32:37 <olsner> that should give you plenty of valid CVS-ate-my-homework excuses
20:32:52 <Koen_> the nfs ate my work
20:32:59 <olsner> (of course it'll occasionally actually do that, but you have backups right?)
20:33:01 <Koen_> like three times a day every day of the first two weeks
20:33:11 <Koen_> yes I did have backup
20:33:21 <Koen_> both via the git and in other folders on the machine
20:33:32 <Koen_> THE NFS MANAGED TO DESTROY THE BACKUPS
20:33:50 <Koen_> somehow it's intelligent and knows which files to make disappear
20:34:52 <Koen_> also sometimes I'm writing stuff on emacs and it will randomly erase a few lines in the file and replace them with "node 4.6.1 is not responding... node 4.6.1 is alive again"
20:35:23 <pikhq> Seems to me that it's not git's fault at all, but rather the fault of NFS.
20:35:39 <Koen_> definitely the nfs yes
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20:40:23 <fizzie> Deewiant: http://sprunge.us/iJRf seems that it's indeed ddrescue time.
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20:45:39 <oerjan> <madbr> is there a pattern of binary or trinary digits that stays the same or mostly the same when multiplied by 3^n / 2^m
20:46:29 <oerjan> someone is thinking about the collatz conjecture...
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20:56:09 <zzo38> Koen_: That then might mean that git is no good for that purpose.
20:56:48 <Koen_> the git is good, the nfs is bad
20:57:01 <Koen_> and I suspect they purposefully did nothing to make things better
20:57:20 <oerjan> <zzo38> Is there such a thing as a "free ring" (as in mathematical)? <-- yes. rings are a variety (essentially, defined by equations) and all varieties have free objects. (commutative rings are also a variety.)
20:57:47 <zzo38> oerjan: Is it the one I have defined?
20:58:42 <zzo38> Day of Zeux as a due time in 24 hours where the time you start the upload (if you use FTP) is the due time instead of when it is finished. That might allow cheating though. My own Z-Comp does something a bit different: You must submit the SHA-1 hash of the file before the deadline.
20:59:35 <oerjan> zzo38: yes i think so, as long as the second order multiset (for addition) can have negative number of an element
21:00:54 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes, that is what I meant by a signed multiset
21:03:32 <oerjan> btw fields are _not_ a variety, division by zero messes up the ability to define it by just equations.
21:04:27 <zzo38> OK; I didn't use fields anyways though.
21:04:41 <oerjan> (e.g. it makes the "obvious" equation x*(1/x) = 1 have an exception)
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21:26:08 <oerjan> <zzo38> I cannot find the Wikipedia articles for a free ring; it redirects to something else. <-- there's a single-sentence definition buried inside the redirected article
21:26:42 <oerjan> it's probably technically correct, if not very illuminating
21:27:29 <Bike> revelation of the day: pedaling a bike requires metabolic work
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21:29:00 <oerjan> zzo38: it's actually equivalent to what you said for noncommutative rings, since a free Z-module is really just a signed multiset
21:29:25 <oerjan> (it's also the same as a free abelian group)
21:30:32 <oerjan> and in another sentence in the introduction, it implies that the commutative analogy to a free algebra is a polynomial ring
21:32:11 <oerjan> zzo38: so another way to define a free commutative ring is as a polynomial ring with the generators as variables and Z as the ring of coefficients. i think.
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21:32:39 <Bike> https://github.com/search?q=path%3Awp-config.php I can't decide if github should turn off search forever, or just auto-break every single fucking dumbass system
21:32:45 * pikhq notes he should not take levofloxacin again.
21:32:51 * pikhq also hopes that never comes up again.
21:33:00 <oerjan> all of these should be equivalent to the category theoretical definition of a free object in the relevant category, of course.
21:33:38 <oerjan> (also, the left adjoint to the underlying set functor)
21:39:09 <zzo38> oerjan: Ah, OK, so I suppose those things would be it too.
21:39:53 <oerjan> zzo38: anyway to prove that your formulation is correct you can note (1) the distributive law allows you to normalize every algebraic expression in a ring to your form (2) assigning suitable integer values to each generator (essentially the same as choosing a homomorphism into the integers) allows you to prove that different multisets cannot represent the same free ring element. (i am assuming the later will work; i haven't actually written it out.)
21:41:52 <oerjan> or well for (2) you could just note they give different _real_ polynomials, which is also a kind of homomorphism.
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21:47:38 <Koen_> I'm trying to connect to the wiki for the first time in a month
21:47:58 <Koen_> I can nly remember the firs two characters of my password
21:49:06 <Koen_> they had a thing at the school about you being respnsible for anything done with your account - in particular, if someone forgot to lock their session, you were encourage to use it to do bad things
21:49:15 <oerjan> let me guess, you've never registered your email either *evil cackle*
21:49:30 <Koen_> so i took the habit to change my password every three days
21:51:06 <Bike> "fuck security"
21:52:03 <Koen_> yeah hum bike you have no idea how many people ended up with porn as their desktop background image / browser home page because they didn't lock their session
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21:52:44 <oerjan> did someone sue the school to get an end to this madness twh
21:52:48 <Koen_> or fancy aliases in the terminal
21:53:23 <Koen_> also I sent a ticket to the staff from someone else's account, volunteering to clean every single screen in the school because they were full of fingerprints
21:53:28 <Bike> yeah this mostly seems like a pointless annoyance.
21:53:29 <oerjan> Koen_: i note you've still not commented on my guess about your email twh
21:53:46 <Koen_> I just received a temporary password oerjan
21:53:54 <Koen_> now I've got to make up yet another new password
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21:54:17 <Koen_> thanks Bike NOW I'VE GOT ONE POSSIBILITY LESS
21:54:45 <oerjan> surely you never considered a 6 char password a possibility in the first place twnh
21:55:15 <Koen_> someone please tell me what that new acronym stands for
21:55:50 <oerjan> hm you haven't been here in a while i guess
21:56:06 <oerjan> there's been an explosion of hth use hth
21:56:14 <Koen_> yes I remember the hth days
21:56:15 <Bike> only in oerjanland
21:56:45 <oerjan> it may have slightly subsided.
21:58:45 <zzo38> I think I may change the name lookup in this program from a simple list to a hash table in a bit similar to how it is implemented in TeX (but using linked lists for resolving hash collisions). Do you think this will be OK?
21:59:26 <Bike> does tex have built in hash tables
22:00:07 <zzo38> TeX uses hash tables to lookup control words; they are described in section 256 of the source file.
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22:12:27 <zzo38> I think I should put these things I wrote on this paper for the Uselessness RPG 1 into some wiki as well; do you have some wiki and section of wiki for putting it in to, which would be suitable for this purpose?
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22:31:51 <Bike> kmc: so are you electrocuted now
22:36:30 <kmc> oh is this re my tweet
22:37:00 <kmc> no i just destroyed 10cm of my LED strip
22:37:21 <kmc> out of 20m total, so not a big deal
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22:37:33 <kmc> if you blow up one controller you can just solder onto the next one along
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22:50:52 <zzo38> What are you trying to make?
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23:52:09 <Gracenotes> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wrong-way_concurrency
23:53:25 <Bike> makes you think.
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23:56:43 <Bike> as foretold in the prophecy
23:58:08 <shachaf> imo wrong end of washington
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