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00:32:07 <FreeFull> iconmaster: In Pascal you choose what an array starts at for every array you make
00:32:42 <FreeFull> So you can have one array whose indexes go from 3 to 6, and another one whose indexes go from 'c' to 'A'
00:32:59 <FreeFull> Actually, make that 'A' to 'c'
00:33:04 <iconmaster> Indexes that start at strings? That's wonderful
00:33:31 <iconmaster> I bet the're just char bytes in disguise, though
00:33:59 <FreeFull> iconmaster: In Pascal it's hard to tell a Char and a single-character String apart
00:34:40 <FreeFull> Although they have different types and behaviour, the syntax for making one is the same
00:35:19 <FreeFull> I don't think arrays can be indexed by strings though, AFAIK they can only be indexed by enums
00:35:53 <FreeFull> I haven't written any Pascal in a while
00:36:48 <fizzie> int array_[16], *array = array_-1; /* "good" old (undefined) C trick for 1-based arrays */
00:38:01 <iconmaster> The insane things we'll do for arrays of the other style
00:38:13 <FreeFull> I don't think that is actually undefined
00:38:22 <fizzie> FreeFull: Sure it is.
00:38:22 <pikhq> It is.
00:39:23 <FreeFull> Accessing array[0] would be, but array[1] to array[16] should be defined
00:39:24 <pikhq> One may only have a pointer be equal to NULL, somewhere within an object, or one past the end of that object. And only one of those is a derefereceable pointer.
00:39:40 <fizzie> FreeFull: "Wwhen an expression that has integer type is -- subtracted from a pointer, -- [things what happen when it points inside the object]; otherwise, the behavior is undefined."
00:39:41 <pikhq> (why one past the end, I know not)
00:40:04 <FreeFull> fizzie: Fair enough
00:44:48 <fizzie> pikhq: "An important endorsement of widespread practice is the requirement that a pointer can always be incremented to /just past/ the end of an array, with no fear of overflow or wraparound:  SOMETYPE array[SPAN];  // ...  for (p = &array[0]; p < &array[SPAN]; p++)  This stipulation merely requires that every object be followed by one byte whose address is representable. -- In the case of p-1, on the other hand, an entire object /would/ have to be alloca
00:45:16 <fizzie> ... /would/ have to be allocated prior to the array of objects that p traverses, so decrement loops that run off the bottom of an array can fail. This restriction allows segmented architectures, for example, to place objects at the start of a range of addressable memory." (C99 rationale)
00:45:27 <fizzie> (Seems that I don't have splitlong.pl in autoloads.)
00:47:29 <fizzie> ("Widespread practice" is the reason for many things in the rationale.)
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01:30:34 <pikhq> True, C *is* speced so as to be at least compatible with nearly everything that compiled C at some point.
01:30:50 <pikhq> Thus why EBCDIC C exists.
01:31:56 <kmc> I was wondering the other day which extant platforms (if any) don't have twos-complement signed integer overflow
01:32:07 <kmc> I don't know of any general purpose CPUs in this category
01:32:14 <pikhq> That's actually a good question.
01:32:22 <kmc> but DSPs often do saturating arithmetic, I think
01:32:34 <kmc> (also some general purpose CPUs have instructions for saturating arithmetic, as well)
01:32:56 <kmc> I assume people program DSPs in C because people program everything in C, but do they have saturating semantics for regular ints and such?
01:33:23 <elliott> I think so?
01:33:34 <pikhq> I want to say no, but I suspect yes.
01:34:00 <kmc> the heart says no but the mind says yes
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04:33:33 <Sgeo> `run tclsh
04:33:34 <HackEgo> bash: tclsh: command not found
04:36:25 <Jafet> Heh, /usr/bin/primes has a bug.
04:36:41 <Jafet> Oh wait, it's /usr/games/primes. I should have known.
04:36:52 <zzo38> What bug does it have?
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04:36:59 <Bike> more like /usr/lames/primes
04:37:13 <Jafet> It prints 10000000079.
04:37:47 <shachaf> That's a pretty bad bug.
04:37:49 <Jafet> > 10000000079 `quotRem` 75329
04:37:51 <lambdabot>   (132751,0)
04:38:27 <Bike> `primes
04:38:28 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: primes: not found
04:44:45 <Sgeo> "Educated persons who read Ken Thompson’s “Reflections on Trusting Trust” throw up their hands in stoic resignation, as if they were confronted with some grim and immutable law of nature. But where is the law of physics which tells us that any computation must be broken up into millions of human-unintelligible instructions before a machine can execute it?"
04:44:49 * Sgeo facepalms
04:45:03 <Sgeo> Ok, fine, get rid of the compiler--- you still need to trust the silicon at some point
04:45:31 <Bike> the law of physics was under the couch the whole time
04:46:00 <shachaf> compiler-++
04:46:12 <Bike> `karma compiler-
04:46:17 <HackEgo> compiler- has 0 karma.
04:46:17 <Bike> @karma compiler-
04:46:17 <lambdabot> compiler- has a karma of 0
04:46:42 <Bike> your commitment to the karma system is admirable, shachaf, to someone, i'm sure
04:46:59 <shachaf> self-admiration is good enough for me
04:47:59 <ion> @karma blah
04:47:59 <lambdabot> blah has a karma of 31338
04:56:13 <Jafet> Ok, it prints numbers whose second smallest positive factor is at least 65539.
04:56:22 <Jafet> Perhaps that was prime enough for bsd.
04:57:34 <Bike> that's prime enough for me most of the time, honestly
04:57:38 <Bike> also: lol.
04:58:37 <Jafet> This may also explain why it is much faster than my version of primes.
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05:57:19 <kmc> http://i.imgur.com/pDxdwpb.jpg
06:18:05 <Sgeo> If a pizza place gives me a slice of pizza on the house, is that likely to be just a thing they do for regular customers or might they be assuming stuff about my financial status?
06:18:33 <Bike> you got some kinda problem with hobos, motherfucker
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06:29:05 <zzo38> Why does Wikipedia always try to enter secure mode?
06:29:58 <zzo38> According to Wikipedia:  The Skeptic Encyclopedia of Pseudoscience states that some principles of feng shui are "quite rational", while noting that "folk remedies and superstitions... [have been] incorporated into feng shui's eclectic mix".
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09:29:12 <oerjan> @tell s1 <s1> it is. But no rule whatever thing. Interested in BF code? <-- it's code 20 in wolfram's number scheme for _totalistic_ 1d automata (2 colors, size 5 neighborhood).
09:29:12 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
09:29:32 <oerjan> @tell ais523 <s1> it is. But no rule whatever thing. Interested in BF code? <-- it's code 20 in wolfram's number scheme for _totalistic_ 1d automata (2 colors, size 5 neighborhood).
09:29:32 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
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11:31:48 <oerjan> :t (??)
11:31:49 <lambdabot> Functor f => f (a -> b) -> a -> f b
11:35:28 <FreeFull> :t (<*>) . pure
11:35:29 <lambdabot> Applicative f => (a -> b) -> f a -> f b
11:35:36 <FreeFull> :t (<*>) 
11:35:37 <lambdabot> Applicative f => f (a -> b) -> f a -> f b
11:35:42 <FreeFull> Oh, right
11:35:54 <FreeFull> :t ap (<*>) pure
11:35:55 <lambdabot>     Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type:
11:35:55 <lambdabot>       a0 = f0 (a0 -> b0)
11:35:55 <lambdabot>     Expected type: f0 (a0 -> b0) -> f0 a0
11:35:59 <FreeFull> :t ap (<*>) . pure
11:36:00 <lambdabot> Applicative f => f a -> f (a -> b) -> f b
11:36:39 <FreeFull> That didn't do what I thought it would do
11:36:53 <oerjan> what did you think it would do
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11:37:35 <oerjan> the ap is probably in the -> Monad, unlike the rest
11:37:57 <FreeFull> Yeah, I did expect ap to be in Reader
11:38:11 <oerjan> ap = (<*>) for any sensible Monad/Applicative type
11:38:21 <FreeFull> I'm trying to get something that matches (??) type signature pointfree
11:38:44 <oerjan> well you should note that it only uses Functor.
11:38:54 <FreeFull> Oh, right
11:39:39 <FreeFull> @pl \a b -> fmap ($b) a
11:39:42 <lambdabot> flip (fmap . flip ($))
11:39:42 <lambdabot> optimization suspended, use @pl-resume to continue.
11:39:43 <FreeFull> :t \a b -> fmap ($b) a
11:39:44 <lambdabot> Functor f => f (a -> b) -> a -> f b
11:40:10 <oerjan>  @pl seems still broken.
11:40:47 <oerjan> :t flip $ \b -> fmap ($b)
11:40:48 <lambdabot> Functor f => f (a -> b) -> a -> f b
11:41:09 <oerjan> :t flip (fmap . flip id)
11:41:09 <lambdabot> Functor f => f (a -> b) -> a -> f b
11:41:28 <oerjan> i'm spoiling again, ain't i
11:41:53 <FreeFull> I don't think you can actually simplify flip id away
11:42:10 <oerjan> indeed, that's pretty simple
11:43:32 <oerjan> :t (??) (fmap . (??) id)
11:43:33 <lambdabot> Functor f => f (a -> b) -> a -> f b
11:44:12 <FreeFull> Using ?? to define ?? probably wouldn't work well
11:44:25 <oerjan> shocking
11:49:05 <Taneb> @type let (???) = (???) (fmap . (???) id) in (???)
11:49:06 <lambdabot>     Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: b0 = f0 b0
11:49:06 <lambdabot>     Expected type: ((f0 (f0 b0) -> f0 b0) -> f0 (f0 b0) -> f0 b0)
11:49:06 <lambdabot>                    -> (f0 (f0 b0) -> f0 b0) -> f0 b0 -> b0
11:49:33 <oerjan> Taneb: i think that's polymorphic recursion
11:50:06 <Taneb> :/
11:50:23 <Taneb> @type let (???) = (???) (fmap . (???) id); (???) :: Functor f => f (a -> b) -> a -> f b in (???)
11:50:24 <lambdabot> Functor f => f (a -> b) -> a -> f b
11:50:45 <Taneb> > let (???) = (???) (fmap . (???) id); (???) :: Functor f => f (a -> b) -> a -> f b in (???) div 2 4
11:50:46 <lambdabot>   *Exception: stack overflow
11:50:57 <Taneb> > div ?? 2 $ 4
11:50:59 <lambdabot>   2
11:51:24 <oerjan> :t let f1 = (??); f2 = (??); f3 = f1 (fmap . f2 id) in (f1, f2, f3)
11:51:25 <lambdabot> Functor f => ((a -> a1 -> b1) -> a1 -> a -> b1, ((a -> b) -> a2 -> b2) -> a2 -> (a -> b) -> b2, f (a -> b) -> a -> f b)
11:52:38 <oerjan> :t \f1 f2 -> f1 (fmap . f2 id)
11:52:38 <lambdabot> Functor f => ((a -> f a1 -> f b) -> t) -> ((a2 -> a2) -> a -> a1 -> b) -> t
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12:45:22 <Taneb> I have came to the conclusion I am not very good at the Hello World quiz
12:45:53 <Taneb> Oh, that's not fair...
12:53:47 <myname> what quiz?
13:02:00 <Taneb> http://helloworldquiz.com/
13:02:17 <Taneb> `quote wine
13:02:23 <HackEgo> 820) <kmc> i love how allegedly wine can run all of these different programs but the only one i can actually run is starcraft  <kmc> i think wine may secretly be a cleanroom reimplementation of starcraft
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13:12:35 <Phantom_Hoover> it's true
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13:12:55 <Phantom_Hoover> whether or not something works in wine is entirely nondeterministic
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13:51:56 <Jafet> I should replace gnome with wine, then.
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14:43:11 <fizzie> I can't seem figure out how to type ς̂ into LibreOffice.
14:43:17 <fizzie> Copy-pasting it in drops the hat.
14:44:43 <fizzie> Well, not exactly "drops", since it is still there (backspacing over it takes an extra step), but it's not visible.
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17:57:01 <FreeFull> I wonder if any humans ever used merge sort when manually sorting some things
17:58:09 <Jafet> No, but there are many computer science freshmen
18:00:59 <FreeFull> If you are given a deck of cards and asked to sort it, maybe using merge sort wouldn't be a bad idea
18:01:29 <FreeFull> Rather than category sort or whatever the standard human sort is
18:01:34 <kmc> mostly when sorting things (in a computer or in person) you have more information than just pairwise less-than
18:01:38 <kmc> and you can use that to be faster
18:02:22 <FreeFull> True
18:02:34 <Jafet> Surely you would sort a deck of cards using the patience game
18:02:44 <FreeFull> Sorting a deck of cards is probably O(n)
18:02:44 <Fiora> I think I end up using selection sort when I sort?
18:02:49 <Fiora> I thought I remember hearing that was what humans usually use
18:03:00 <Fiora> because, like, in a hand of cards, moving a card is a lot harder than finding the minimum
18:03:07 <Fiora> since you can do the latter with your eyes, right?
18:03:13 <Fiora> so if findmin() is super fast but moving is slow, selection is good
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18:03:42 <elliott> what's the sorting algorithm called where you just give up and let it be messy >_>
18:03:47 <FreeFull> Fiora: I tend to put the current card into the corresponding pile and then just merge all the piles at the end
18:03:49 <Fiora> 52 card pickup? XD
18:03:55 <FreeFull> elliott: bogosort
18:04:41 <Jafet> The pseudo-sorting algorithm that works best is the one where you riffle the deck ten times to try and make the next game more random
18:05:11 <kmc> Jafet: ooh patience sort
18:05:19 <kmc> you can use that to implement a diff algorithm
18:05:42 <Jafet> But I've never needed to diff two decks of cards...
18:05:44 <FreeFull> Shuffling works best when you have a reliable source of randomness
18:05:54 <kmc> http://bramcohen.livejournal.com/73318.html
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18:16:52 <oerjan> <Taneb> I have came to the conclusion I am not very good at the Hello World quiz <-- *MWAHAHAHA*
18:17:04 * oerjan needs to gloat about the few things he can.
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18:21:52 <oerjan> <FreeFull> If you are given a deck of cards and asked to sort it, maybe using merge sort wouldn't be a bad idea <-- i think for a deck of cards the obvious manual algorithm is to designate a spot on the table for each card and put it directly there.
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18:27:00 <Jafet> Just scan through the deck and convert it to a permutation index in your head
18:28:32 <Taneb> oerjan, sorting algorithms can be much improved if you know in advance exactly which values you are sorting
18:28:43 <oerjan> yeah
18:29:14 <Taneb> Like, O(this isn't even really an algorithm)
18:29:45 <Taneb> Well, the way you described is probably O(n)
18:29:45 <Jafet> Throw away the useless unsorted deck and snort out a sorted one from your nose
18:33:18 <oerjan> sounds like a trick
18:39:42 <olsner> "quicksnort"
18:41:08 <kmc> O(balls)
18:41:29 <zzo38> What would be a Haskell class having (w x -> m x), (w x -> w (w x)), (w (x -> m y) -> w x -> w y)?
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18:52:43 <kmc> http://aem1k.com/world/
18:53:21 <FreeFull> oerjan: Yeah, spot sort would be the fastest
18:56:00 <kmc> killall killall& killall killall& killall killall& killall killall& killall killall& killall killall& killall killall&
18:57:13 <Gracenotes> hm, why is it that every so often I search for "CHROMEBOOK TURN OFF CAPS LOCK"
18:57:13 <shachaf> you know the thing where you're using a solaris computer and you type killall out of habit
18:57:22 <ais523> shachaf: actually no
18:57:47 <ais523> and I learnt UNIX on SunOS
18:58:03 <ais523> with a version of Mozilla so old that it blanked Wikipedia's Talk:Main Page once
18:58:20 <olsner> shachaf: I know about the thing, but no-one I know has actually done that afaik
18:58:29 <Gracenotes> at least it was only the talk page
18:58:35 <ais523> Gracenotes: yeah
18:58:45 <ais523> I actually use to have perms to edit Wikipedia's Main Page
18:58:49 <ais523> but never found a reason to do so
18:59:12 <ais523> (although I did start a large campaign to rename it that ultimately ended in failure)
18:59:17 <Gracenotes> everyone is like "let's use templates" and also "let's use bots"
18:59:51 <ais523> the templates were a good idea
19:00:03 <ais523> the bots are at least a reasonable idea, although I can see some downsides
19:00:04 <FreeFull> shachaf: I never use killall, I use pkill instead
19:00:20 <Gracenotes> I'm so used to using pkill, sometimes I use pkill on process numbers
19:00:25 <Gracenotes> it doesn't work
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19:05:36 <kmc> Whose might is riptide and undertow / There's no escaping from Ohio
19:10:08 <elliott> oregon is bad / stop it if you can
19:10:49 <Bike> where's the rhyme
19:11:07 <elliott> ask john linnell
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19:40:43 <zzo38> I have thought about Newcomb's and I see that statistically speaking, if they know 99% accurately which one you picked, you can calculate the expected value is better with one box. However, statistically speaking is not the only way to speak!
19:43:04 <quintopia> ais523: rename it to what?
19:43:24 <Sgeo> Is there any reason that storebought mac and cheese would be any less healthy than making pasta and cheese myself?
19:44:22 <zzo38> Sgeo: Perhaps depending how it is make?
19:47:59 <quintopia> Sgeo: well, i suspect that in some sense the storebought will be healthier
19:48:15 <quintopia> they invent special fake cheese with more vitamins
19:48:24 <quintopia> but the homemade will probably taste better
19:48:46 <Sgeo> I think the storebought tastes better
19:49:04 <Sgeo> And also, there's the factor of how much time it takes to make...
19:49:30 <quintopia> you aren't making it right then
19:51:14 <Gracenotes> store mac+cheese is not guaranteed to come from a cow at any point
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19:51:25 <Gracenotes> if that's the kind of property you want
19:51:45 <Gracenotes> the reason why storebought takes better is because they add a bunch of microscopic things your tastebuds like.
19:52:20 <Sgeo> The properties I want: Not going to kill me if I eat it every night for dinner, and fast to make. And not too expensive, but if mac and cheese violates the first property, I'm open to more expensive stuff
19:53:08 <Gracenotes> and stuff to improve creaminess, even when it gets cold, and just the right amount of congealing.
19:57:04 <quintopia> i would not recommend eating kraft dinner for every dinner
19:57:42 <Sgeo> quintopia: why not?
19:58:28 <quintopia> it's far from a balanced diet. it's missing a lot of essential shit. it's really not much more than carbs and sodium, and a little fat too if you use whole milk
19:59:35 <Sgeo> Is pasta and real cheese any better?
19:59:47 <Sgeo> Is (real) pizza any better?
20:00:11 <olsner> pizza usually has tomatoes, which should at least make scurvy less likely
20:01:01 <Sgeo> Also, I do eat lunch, consisting of usually a hamburger (could be chicken too)
20:01:31 <oerjan> quite possibly "eat the same thing every night for dinner" is incompatible with "balanced diet".
20:01:47 <copumpkin> what if you eat a magic concoction of every possible good thing
20:01:52 <elliott> Sgeo: can I convince you to see an actual nutritionist? like, it'll be slightly better than #esoteric at the very least.
20:01:53 <copumpkin> in just the right balance
20:02:38 <Sgeo> elliott: I spoke to a nutritionist once, I should do that again
20:03:22 <oerjan> copumpkin: istr there is a couple of healthy foodstuffs, one of which neutralizes the health benefit of the other if you eat/drink them simultaneously.  i don't quite remember what they were, though.
20:04:00 <oerjan> or well, some mineral or something which cannot be absorbed if you have the other thing simultaneously.
20:07:31 <olsner> hmm, interesting
20:09:24 <oerjan> i have vague bells on either calcium, iron or c-vitamins as one of them.
20:09:41 <oerjan> (the one that cannot be absorbed)
20:10:44 <oerjan> oh it was coffee and calcium
20:10:51 <Phantom_Hoover> iron and calcium
20:10:56 <Phantom_Hoover> no, it's iron and calcium
20:11:01 <oerjan> wat
20:11:05 <Phantom_Hoover> i remember from when we were mocking that soylent idiot
20:11:41 <oerjan> well i find google hits on coffee and calcium.  but there might be other incompatible things, of course.
20:12:26 <ais523> <quintopia> ais523: rename it to what? ← Portal:Main
20:12:34 <oerjan> i vaguely recall that iron and calcium soylent thing too, though.
20:12:46 <quintopia> ais523: that's a terrible name :P
20:12:54 <ais523> quintopia: well it's the correct namespace
20:13:05 <ais523> [[Main Page]] should be an encyclopedia article
20:13:14 <oerjan> quintopia: he is now waiting for someone to make up something called "Main Page", so they _have_ to move it.
20:13:16 <quintopia> correct and user-friendly are frequently at odds
20:13:45 <oerjan> or else get an ugly disambiguation notice in the main page
20:14:01 <quintopia> I'm going to name my daughter Main Page and hope she gets famous
20:14:09 <olsner> perhaps Main Page is just another name for brainfuck
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20:17:14 <oerjan> quintopia: is Page your real surname
20:17:32 <oerjan> that would make things easier.
20:17:56 <quintopia> Page sounds like Paige, which is a reasonable girl's name
20:18:27 <quintopia> but i'm afraid Jimmy Page didn't have any kids named Main, so 'oh well' on that front
20:20:30 <olsner> I wonder if there's a Jimmy somewhere authoring Jimmy's Jimmy Page Page
20:20:37 <quintopia> we could start a band called Main Page
20:20:38 <ais523> quintopia: well things being in the wrong namespace mean that you need exceptions all over the place
20:21:56 <quintopia> doesn't having a 'Portal:' namespace create potential conflicts with 3D platforming puzzle games?
20:22:38 <quintopia> say, if they made a movie
20:22:43 <quintopia> Portal: The Movie
20:23:54 <Jafet> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ø_(Disambiguation)
20:24:39 <ais523> quintopia: yeah, there are namespace / pagetitle clashes on occasion
20:24:48 <ais523> the most infamous was [[:coolCat]]
20:25:05 <ais523> which broke the database in random ways for months
20:25:33 <ais523> eventually I think they had to modify the database manually to get rid of it
20:32:50 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portal:Portal
20:35:10 <kmc> quintopia: I don't think there's a user-friendliness issue here; who manually types /Main_Page into their browser?
20:35:37 <kmc> people just get there from http://en.wikipedia.org or more likely from Googling something and later clicking the globe logo
20:36:38 <elliott> people have bookmarks, [[Main Page]] will never point anywhere else
20:36:47 <kmc> fuck them and their bookmarks
20:36:58 <ais523> kmc: the problem is existing links
20:36:59 <kmc> but you could at least have it be a redirect to Portal:Main
20:37:01 <ais523> elliott: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search?go=Go&search=%s
20:37:15 <kmc> wut
20:37:17 <ais523> in particular, read the talk page
20:37:20 <ais523> kmc: that's what I was suggesting
20:37:40 <elliott> ais523: why does it link to a page that redirects to the Main Page at the top rather than the actual main page...?
20:37:43 <elliott> why am I trying to understand Wikipedia??
20:37:50 <kmc> whykipedia
20:38:17 <ais523> elliott: because [[Main Page]] is in the wrong namespace for a Wikipedia-internal-specific disambiguation hatnote
20:38:22 <elliott> anyway, if you bookmark Wikipedia then you'll end up with it linking to /wiki/Main_Page in like 99.999% of cases
20:38:23 <ais523> and the bots would thus get confused
20:38:33 <elliott> so that's a lot worse than breaking the search shortcut thing
20:38:46 <elliott> this is boring though :V
20:39:58 <ais523> anyway, I think you're inadvertently arguing for moving the Main Page, there :)
20:41:03 <ais523> oh, I also wanted to rename the Main Page to the null string, but apparently the developers were unwilling to make that possible
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23:08:31 <zzo38> My computer was off, sorry
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23:25:36 <ion> You are forgiven.
23:27:09 <Phantom_Hoover> zzo38, thank god you're back, there was a major crisis brewing
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23:32:46 <zzo38> Do you know of any compiler MML -> .MOD?
23:34:22 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: What kind of crisis is that?
23:34:35 <Phantom_Hoover> well the details aren't important now
23:40:51 <kmc> crisis on infinite earths
23:43:44 <Phantom_Hoover> that sort of thing, yes
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