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01:03:12 <Sgeo> help im scared
01:03:28 <Sgeo> A deploy of my code tonight
01:03:40 <Sgeo> If it breaks stuff my boss would be really annoyed probably
01:10:05 <kmc> how well-tested is it?
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01:10:41 <Sgeo> I tested the code path that were easy to test (maybe 2), and some random person in Colorado accidentally tested a trickier code path
01:11:03 <olsner> three code paths! that's three more than I usually test
01:11:30 <Sgeo> But my main concern is more performance, and I really don't know how to test that
01:12:49 <olsner> if it fails you can just roll back and try again after testing and fixing some more, right?
01:13:48 <Sgeo> Failing might look like bad diagnostic data, or like a slowdown that's only apparent when a lot of people are hititng the site
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01:14:12 <ion> Wat. People were detained in Europe for paying using coins. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-24524699
01:14:35 <Sgeo> But the code is going to be rolled back in a few days anyway, even if it works 100% properly
01:15:06 <Sgeo> Euro-coins look pretty
01:15:47 <kmc> my friend paid off the last of his university bill with a bunch of $1 coins in a burlap sack with a big "$" drawn on it
01:16:42 <kmc> Sgeo: yeah. bimetalic coins are nice, I wish we had them here
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01:17:05 <kmc> also I wish that people actually used $1 coins with enough frequency to make them not annoying
01:17:13 <kmc> and I wish that vendors would choose prices that come out to a round number after tax
01:17:16 <kmc> and I want a pony too
01:17:28 <Sgeo> I want prices to be listed after tax rather than before tax
01:17:42 <Sgeo> Although I may have slightly stopped paying attention to prices after getting a debit card
01:17:47 <Sgeo> And having a job
01:18:21 <kmc> with round numbers, coins are faster than a card
01:19:59 <trout> Sgeo: swiss coins are the biggest PITA though
01:20:05 <trout> they have a 5 franc coin!
01:20:06 <shachaf> kmc: sometimes they do that and then tax changes :'(
01:20:20 <shachaf> it's pretty rare in the us, though
01:20:28 <trout> shachaf: how does tax change?
01:20:33 <kmc> ballot measure
01:20:35 <kmc> trout: that must be one of the more valuable coins in common circulation
01:20:48 <trout> and its so annoying when you drop a coin
01:21:03 <trout> ' 3,700 one-euro coins were then found in their room.'
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01:50:14 <kmc> it's so weird that comments in HTML stick around in the DOM
01:51:20 <kmc> but you need it (at least internally) because of shit like <script><!-- alert('hi'); //--></script>
02:19:52 <shachaf> oerjan: do you like pizza y/n
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02:56:20 <Sgeo> That went reasonably well, maybe
02:56:22 <Sgeo> Won't really know until morning
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03:03:13 <pikhq> kmc: They stick around in the XML DOM too.
03:03:30 <pikhq> Just in case you want to do stupid shit with your XSLT.
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03:06:36 <ion> I’d be fine with browsers ignoring code withing <script><!-- … --></script>
03:06:49 <ion> “withing”? ok
03:06:51 <Sgeo> Well, my few lines of code are now being executed every time someone hits the site... which will be millions of people, probably
03:07:01 <Bike> can i have ur autograph
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03:25:53 <Sgeo> A bunch of EVE players are planning to fight the NPC police
03:25:59 <Sgeo> http://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/1ogh7d/concord_vs_eve_yulai_october_19_2013_2000_eve_time/
03:26:31 <Fiora> didn't m0o do that like in 2004 or something?
03:27:10 <Fiora> and then concord got buffed <_<
03:37:23 <Fiora> I did a while ago...
03:46:45 <kmc> <!-- … --> is a pretty good face
03:58:38 <Sgeo> http://www.pasterack.org/pastes/4143
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03:59:13 <Sgeo> Yes, I know I don't know how to spell awful
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04:13:40 <kmc> this one emphasizes that you are full of awe
04:13:51 <kmc> anyway what's the point of this pls
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04:43:03 <Sgeo> I don't remember what my debugging codes mean offhand
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04:52:13 <Sgeo> My code is already paying off
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05:17:12 <kmc> did Mozart put out some new music?
05:17:28 <kmc> i guess he heard that GY!BE was touring again
05:20:28 <Sgeo> NihilistDandy: HOLY FUCK THAT'S STILL ALIVE?
05:20:32 <Sgeo> Maybe I should look into it
05:21:00 <Sgeo> I've always wanted to look at it but it's deadness kept scaring me away
05:21:19 <NihilistDandy> I just thought about it out of the blue and went to check it out
05:24:38 <NihilistDandy> Even works on OS X with something other than Aquamacs, which is thrilling
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05:46:07 <Sgeo> I have sudden concerns about my code
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06:47:34 <fizzie> Must be fun being all role-play-y and this-is-Serious-Business-y and so on about EVE (assuming people do that? it sounds like something people would do) when there's a large chunk of space claimed by a "Legion of xXDEATHXx". (Looked at some kind of a map.)
06:48:42 <Bike> a while back i read a jihadology report on identified foreign fighters who had died in syria. it generally included their forum handles if applicable.
06:48:45 <Bike> i'll let you use your imagination.
06:49:24 <kmc> a prominent EVE person and SomethingAwful forum mod was killed in the attack on the US embassy in Benghazi
06:49:51 <Bike> yeah that was sad
06:49:56 <Bike> rat... something
06:50:43 <Bike> vilerat, that was it
06:52:02 <Bike> it was weird having EVE people come by the middle east thread on SA to talk about nuking libya
06:54:24 <fizzie> Bike: Well, you know, you can legally shoot back for 15 minutes, or something.
06:54:50 <Bike> they were dicks.
07:24:30 <kmc> did you all see https://freedom-to-tinker.com/blog/felten/the-linux-backdoor-attempt-of-2003/
07:28:08 <kmc> if ((options == (__WCLONE|__WALL)) && (current->uid = 0)) retval = -EINVAL;
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07:39:24 <zzo38> It certainly does look like wrong. I don't know what __WCLONE and __WALL are, but it sets uid to zero and then would not change retval.
07:42:51 <FireFly> it's the set-uid-to-0 part that is really interesting
07:43:48 <zzo38> I can understand how that would be a problem, but I don't know what __WCLONE and __WALL are.
07:45:20 <kmc> I hadn't even noticed the other bug
07:45:26 <kmc> I'm glad you did zzo38 :)
07:45:52 <zzo38> It seems it might be some kind of bit flags, although I don't know what the other possible options are, and if that is the case it seems strange that it checks for that exact combination. These kind of things do suggest possibly deliberate backdoors
07:47:25 <zzo38> kmc: You didn't notice it? Why didn't you notice it?
07:49:40 <kmc> wasn't looking
07:52:50 <zzo38> Should the compiler warn "Condition is always false" or something like that?
08:01:58 <kmc> hm, probably
08:16:08 <fizzie> And also from what I recall, __WCLONE and __WALL are mutually exclusive, so the check sort of halfway makes sense.
08:16:29 <fizzie> Though reporting an error only when current->uid == 0 would be kind of strange thing to do overall.
08:17:08 <fizzie> The man page specifies that "[__WCLONE] is ignored if __WALL is also specified."
08:18:26 <fizzie> (In any case, it should probably be testing for (options & (__WCLONE|__WALL)) == (__WCLONE|__WALL) if it wanted to test for that.
08:18:45 <fizzie> (Unless "options" has been purged of other flags.)
08:19:21 <impomatic> Errrr, is it normal to see smoke or steam or something coming out of a laser printer. I've never noticed it before. Slightly worried.
08:21:11 <fizzie> (I don't think it's normal.)
08:22:13 <fizzie> "Issue: Steam or vapor is visible above the output tray, and moisture might appear on the trailing edge of printouts. The printouts might be damp, wet, or curled. If steam is released from the product, it might appear to be smoke."
08:22:26 <fizzie> "HP has tested the performance of this product thoroughly, and this moisture is part of the normal operation of the product. The vapor occurs because moisture condenses in the output area until the internal temperature reaches a level at which no condensation occurs."
08:22:34 <fizzie> Can't say I've noticed, though.
08:22:48 <fizzie> Presumably internal humidity &c. has a role.
08:23:27 <fizzie> (That's for HP LaserJets, but presumably the overall operating principles are common for most laser printers.)
08:24:21 <impomatic> I've just moved a dehumidifier to the office. Hopefully it'll solve the problem.
08:26:20 <fizzie> According to HP, it is not a problem.
08:26:36 <fizzie> Though the person receiving the "damp, wet, or curled" paper might disagree.
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08:36:58 <zzo38> fizzie: Yes I also noticed that it was strange to be only when uid is zero. I am pretty sure whoever put it in there then must have been either extremely confused about the system and acting really stupid, or more likely, they deliberately put that bug in there and hoped nobody would notice
08:38:02 <zzo38> But I can program in C, and know what "uid" is, so I can see why it is strange and bug, and any other C programmers can also tell; I don't know how they expected that nobody would notice.
08:38:34 <zzo38> Even if somebody doesn't see the bug I would expect them to question it at least.
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08:44:45 <fizzie> It was slipped in sort of clandestinely, not through the usual channels.
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10:45:17 <oerjan> `addquote <Sgeo> NihilistDandy: HOLY FUCK THAT'S STILL ALIVE? <Sgeo> Maybe I should look into it
10:45:23 <HackEgo> 1118) <Sgeo> NihilistDandy: HOLY FUCK THAT'S STILL ALIVE? <Sgeo> Maybe I should look into it
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10:54:56 <fizzie> "If you’ve ended up on this page, you have probably found the HTTP user agent string of Panopta Monitoring (http://checks.panopta.com) in your logs and are wondering why you’re seeing requests to your server. There are a number of possible reasons for this: * The monitoring could have been setup by someone else in your organization."
10:55:03 <fizzie> Yes, that seems most likely.
10:55:29 <fizzie> fungot: Did you, a someone else in my organization, set up some Panopta Monitoring?
10:55:29 <fungot> fizzie: the language has
10:55:38 <fizzie> Oh, the *language* has. Well, then.
10:55:51 <oerjan> fizzie: are the connections coming from finland?
10:56:22 <fizzie> From somewhere in the UK.
10:56:41 <oerjan> i guess you should contact your representatives in the uk, then.
10:57:16 <fizzie> Also a possible reason: "A competitor might be looking for comparison data on their online presence."
10:57:30 <fizzie> All those people competing in the Funge-98 bot market, probably.
10:57:37 <oerjan> ooh it's probably hexham university!
10:57:52 <oerjan> yes, that's the ticket
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11:08:37 <fizzie> Today's "ended up at the OpenTTD logic page, was probably looking for something else" search query: "4 bit adder and its working"
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11:53:54 <fizzie> "You are requested to use high quality headphones for this experiment" but I just have this cheap USB headset.
11:54:10 <fizzie> (It's a speech synthesis naturalness evaluation listening test.)
11:55:26 <Jafet> Is it high quality speech synthesis
11:56:15 <fizzie> In fact, "HQ speech synthesis" was in the subject line of the email.
11:56:32 <fizzie> I'd certainly like to hear some, but what if my headphones are not high quality enough?
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11:58:14 <Jafet> fungot doesn't need headphones.
11:58:14 <fungot> Jafet: but just because you can access a method pointer do you consider that upstate?
11:58:58 <fizzie> fungot: You sure shut him up.
11:58:58 <fungot> fizzie: that seems extreme without an extra room to put it more formally
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12:38:31 <fizzie> Ooh, the "port 4679 guy" started again.
12:39:11 <fizzie> From a different IP this time.
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13:46:13 <JesseH> Anyone need another brainfuck compiler or interpreter? :P
13:47:40 <boily> good frighumid morning!
13:48:09 <JesseH> ._. I think I know boily
13:48:32 <JesseH> Unless "JesseHello" is a common term
13:48:59 <boily> it's a Quaint Tradition from the Channel, where you try to conflagrate a hello-derivative into someone's nick.
13:49:44 <JesseH> You have made it impossible for yours.
13:49:45 <JesseH> https://github.com/jessehorne/phpbf
13:51:00 <JesseH> I'm having to learn PHP recently, so I thought i might as well write something fun with it :P
13:51:37 <boily> JesseH: such is life with a francophone name. apparently, hoily is quite popular.
13:52:13 <JesseH> That is not a greeting :P
13:52:31 <JesseH> Not where I come from...Murica
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13:54:47 <boily> according to the data I have, you're approximatively due South from me.
13:55:12 <JesseH> Super Stalker Technique! kaaaamaaaaahaaaamaaHAAAAA
13:56:23 <metasepia> KATL 151352Z 08009KT 10SM BKN012 BKN027 OVC030 18/14 A3016 RMK AO2 SLP208 T01780144
13:56:50 <boily> weather at that infamous airport in Atlanta.
13:57:08 <JesseH> I am a little bit below atlanta
13:57:24 <JesseH> Want me street address?
13:57:40 <boily> uhm, no. that'd be very stalky, and I'm no stalker.
13:58:16 <JesseH> What happened to those firefly commercials?
14:02:01 <fizzie> boily: Frighteningly humid?
14:03:56 <boily> fizzie: frigid and humid.
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14:15:05 <boily> `relcome Uguubee111117
14:15:09 <HackEgo> Uguubee111117: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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15:14:23 <shachaf> oerjan: do all norwegians like pizza y/n
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16:49:48 <zzo38> The king is allergic to beholders and wants them all killed, even though only (exactly) half of them have done anything bad. ... Identify the problem with this. (It isn't implied by the text, although knowing that there is a problem may allow it to be known.)
16:51:14 <JesseH> Can one create a turing complete language that uses one character?
16:51:32 <zzo38> JesseH: Can you please be more specific?
16:52:04 <JesseH> Is it possible that a language can be turing complete, using a combination of only one ascii character, and spaces
16:52:22 <JesseH> What if you took the space away? :P
16:52:34 <fizzie> There are languages that only use the length of the file.
16:52:54 <fizzie> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Unary
16:53:02 <fizzie> That one uses only the character '0' with no spaces.
16:53:49 <fizzie> It's also a brainfuck derivative, because of course it is.
16:54:05 <JesseH> I have had enough of brainfuck for today
16:54:22 <Bike> it doesn't have to be brainfuck.
16:54:24 <fizzie> I think there were some other Unary-like languages.
16:54:39 <Bike> just enumerate the turing machines.
16:54:44 <JesseH> I need to work on improving my languages
16:54:49 <JesseH> They are so terribly shitty :D
16:55:14 <JesseH> ooo I've heard of that one
16:55:21 <fizzie> fungot: Have you heard of that one?
16:55:22 <fungot> fizzie: then why do you think
16:55:30 <fizzie> fungot: You're made in it, that's why.
16:55:30 <fungot> fizzie: you code in a procedure to return any sort of looping there; how do you choose not to give the standard bindings the extended meanings from srfi 1
16:56:04 <myname> also, i read that move and one conditional jump is turing complete
16:56:27 <fizzie> There was something about that article that annoyed me.
16:56:44 <fizzie> I think the "it halts by doing an access violation" aspect.
16:57:00 <fungot> JesseH: do you think?!) the scheme implementation
16:57:16 <fizzie> fungot: There's a Scheme implementation of you?!
16:57:17 <fungot> fizzie: chicken scheme is written in before it has changed! i was just responding to minus273's suggestion that ' ( 1 2))
16:57:31 <JesseH> fizzie, hes right you know
16:57:35 <fizzie> Yes, I think we all agree that '(1 2).
17:09:41 <boily> fungot: can you handle Italian cuisine?
17:09:42 <fungot> boily: i love censorship!! it's liberace and tuesday weld!!
17:10:45 <boily> fizzie: your bot. I can't understand it.
17:11:48 <Bike> i think that means fungot can't handle italian quizzine.
17:11:48 <fungot> Bike: except slime48.el, i presume?
17:12:47 <zzo38> What is slime48.el? Is it related to Emacs?
17:13:07 <boily> fungot: slime and sludge and grime and dirt and gooey stuff?
17:13:07 <fungot> boily: 19 isnt between 1 and 20, inclusive? 10) ( integer-char 13)
17:13:47 <fungot> FireFly: the language is beautiful, but there are books like sicp and sicm, fnord java has a consistent api with a design in mind and a lot more specific about how that relates to the source
17:14:19 <FireFly> "the language is beautiful [...] java"
17:14:58 <boily> “fnord java has a consistent api with a design in mind”
17:15:06 <boily> I... I am deeply disturbed.
17:16:40 <fizzie> zzo38: It's a kind of an integration thing between Emacs and the Scheme48 Scheme implementation, yes. (Derived or some-such from SLIME, an Emacs thing for Common Lisp stuff.)
17:17:35 <FireFly> fungot: what's your opinion on brainfuck derivatives?
17:17:35 <fungot> FireFly: and then compile to that interactively, interpret it, but glad you got it :)), so you
17:17:53 <FireFly> not sure what to make of that, fungot...
17:17:53 <fungot> FireFly: so it is sans?" etc.
17:18:47 <HackEgo> 11) <fungot> GregorR-L: i bet only you can prevent forest fires. basically, you know. \ 14) <fizzie after embedding some of his department research into fungot> Finally I have found some actually useful purpose for it. \ 15) <fungot> oerjan: are you a man, if there weren't evil in this kingdom to you! you shall find bekkler! executing program. plea
17:19:44 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: style: not found
17:19:59 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
17:21:27 <fizzie> You can schee the #scheme roots.
17:23:19 <fungot> Selected style: enron (subset of the Enron email dataset)
17:24:37 <zzo38> Any mahjong playing today?
17:24:58 <zzo38> FireFly: Is the Enron set closed today?
17:28:03 <fizzie> FireFly: You may have exhausted your limit.
17:28:15 <fizzie> fungot: Speak, friend, and enter.
17:28:15 <fungot> fizzie: by the time we wish you the best to get out the attached. whether the shipper on k. see the spreadsheet.
17:28:33 <fizzie> There's a four-in-a-row rule.
17:29:08 <fizzie> I don't think the Enron style is terribly good.
17:29:24 <FireFly> What's a good style that isn't irc?
17:30:05 <fungot> FireFly: therefore i was sorting the stations according to the money."? third offense.
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17:30:16 <fungot> Selected style: fungot (What I've said myself)
17:30:20 <fizzie> They have their own pros and cons.
17:30:28 <fizzie> But many of them are good only sporadically.
17:30:34 <zzo38> The style of my stories and games maybe (note: there is no such thing, therefore it cannot possibly be the best style, nor can it possibly be the worse).
17:31:05 <zzo38> O, and maybe flamenco may be good but I don't know and since it isn't there you canot use that one either
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17:53:49 <shachaf> that's neithem here nom there
17:54:22 <boily> from whom shall I borrow the swatter, so I can hit shachaf?
17:57:01 <FireFly> I haven't seen the swatter in a while
17:57:36 -!- mnoqy has joined.
17:58:20 <boily> I'll have to use a makeshift swatter...
17:58:30 <fizzie> Also! In the local grocery store they sold that Hexham Fentimans thing.
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17:58:51 * boily swats shachaf with a carrot plush from Ikea <}=
17:59:18 <boily> fizzie: I tasted the shandy the other day. it wasn't half bad.
17:59:33 <fizzie> boily: Swat with a SAMSPLET.
17:59:47 <fizzie> SAMSPELT. I can't even spell.
18:00:11 <boily> holy green cubic thing...
18:01:08 <fizzie> They didn't have much of a selection, but I bought a Curiosity Cola and their Traditional Ginger Beer.
18:01:22 <fizzie> I'm "gunna" pretend I'm in Hexham.
18:01:34 <shachaf> do they say "gunna" in Hexham
18:02:03 <zzo38> Tell me if this ASCII mahjong format is OK? s=sou,m=man,p=pin,ESWN=wind,F=hatsu,C=chun,P=haku,a=akadora, / separate blocks for example 123456p/111s/EEECC might be one kind of hand. In case of Washizu mahjong you put opaque tiles in  and for opponent's unknown tiles you use ?
18:02:51 <boily> fizzie: I have the orange moose from → http://www.ikea.com/ca/fr/catalog/products/80176340/
18:03:18 <zzo38> For tile taken from other player you type 777m(w) if take from west player, or for "CHII" you can write (4)56p if you have picked the 4 from the other player
18:03:18 <fizzie> I don't think we have any real decorative IKEA items.
18:03:33 <boily> zzo38: IIRC, I think the anglo-centric version uses A=pin, B=sou, C=man, and G=hatsu, R=chun, W=haku.
18:03:40 <fizzie> Oh, except we have a TRÅDIG!
18:03:48 <FireFly> boily: did you know that "söt barnslig" means "cute childish"?
18:04:00 <fizzie> I've put apples in the TRÅDIG.
18:04:09 <boily> FireFly: now I do.
18:05:03 <boily> zzo38: do you think there may be a possibility of perhaps being able playing mahjong on IRC?
18:05:15 <zzo38> boily: I don't know of any using A=pin, B=sou, C=man. W=haku can't be correct either.
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18:05:32 <zzo38> boily: Possibly. At least I can play mahjong and you can and possibly others too, maybe in other server?
18:06:54 <zzo38> Still, the ASCII format I mentioned is for UnAmerican. For American, I would suggest using different letters as follows: b=bamboo,c=crack,d=dot,G=green dragon,R=red dragon,0=white dragon,F=flower,J=joker
18:07:36 <zzo38> Where did you get the " A=pin, B=sou, C=man, and G=hatsu, R=chun, W=haku" version from?
18:07:51 <boily> from my very, very fuzzy memory.
18:08:08 <boily> seems that I hallucitiled that.
18:08:22 <zzo38> I do not believe it can possibly be correct, especially since W=west
18:09:52 <boily> hmm... 0 can't be correct neither, as it is the orb of zot. I think your proposition is best.
18:10:49 <zzo38> My first proposition is best, I think, for Japanese mahjong and all other UnAmerican forms.
18:12:39 <zzo38> What kind of mahjong game involves orbs?
18:13:13 <boily> it was a not so subtle reference to DCSS... >_>'...
18:13:14 <zzo38> Pokemon mahjong (something I made up) involves stones, but not orbs!
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18:18:44 <zzo38> Pokemon mahjong involves 619 tiles (although additional "typeless wildcards" are dealt if the previous hand ended in a draw), and this is only for first generation. It also has two kind of sequences, ambiguity rules for called "chii" and "pon", five special hands (seven pairs, sequence of fourteen, fourteen wildcards, skipping sequence of fourteen, same as your first fourteen untaken discards), and much more.
18:18:53 <zzo38> Do you know of pokemon good enough to know this?
18:19:25 <zzo38> There is also two kinds of furiten (wild and natural).
18:21:09 <boily> ~eval 619 / (4 * 17)
18:21:27 <zzo38> Where did you get 4 * 17 from?
18:22:06 <boily> you'd have >9 tile-high walls. isn't that a little bit... excessive?
18:22:17 <boily> one layer of 17 tile-wide wall?
18:22:19 <zzo38> 619 is 151 (number of pokemon species) times four (copies of each), plus 15 (number of types; one typed wildcard of each type).
18:22:41 <zzo38> boily: O, that's how. Well, you would probably need to use a bag instead of walls, or play the game on a computer.
18:22:59 <boily> nothing like the feeling of a thrown tile at an opponent.
18:23:49 <boily> FireFly: that reminds me of a game of warhammer some friends played over the weekend. 6' × 12' table, 15 000 points each side.
18:25:17 <zzo38> FireFly: Of course it wouldn't be easily playable with walls; a computer, or an automatic mixer, or something, would help.
18:25:35 <zzo38> boily: I think I have seen warhammer game just once
18:26:40 <FireFly> I don't think I have ever seen one
18:26:45 <FireFly> at least, I know nothing of the rules :<
18:27:27 <zzo38> In this Pokemon mahjong, closed sets may be ambiguous but open sets are required to be unambiguous. For example, [3,fire,joker] and [4,fire,joker] are ambiguous, [2,fire,joker] is unambiguous, and [1,fire,joker] is not a valid set at all.
18:28:04 -!- Sprocklem has joined.
18:28:31 <boily> FireFly: the rules include always rolling many dice many times, and boasting that your units are always better, even when playing against the same kind of figurines.
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18:42:16 <zzo38> In Pokemon mahjong I don't know how much more difficult it will be to make a hand. Although there is a lot more possible tiles, it also has some features to make it somewhat easier: It has wildcards, all (natural) tiles are numeric, only two of the numbers are end tiles, two kind of sequences (although this only improves your chances in more than one generation, it affects scoring even in first generation), Charleston, evolution stones, etc
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18:43:04 <zzo38> Can you understand this so far?
18:46:30 <zzo38> In first generation a [25,26] can be completed with a 24 or 27. In second generation, it can be completed with a 24, 27, or 172.
18:46:52 -!- conehead has joined.
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18:47:56 <boily> I SEE [[ WHAT IS A 172? ]] ORANGE JUICE GOODBYE!
18:49:30 <boily> `relcome snuffeluffegus
18:49:33 <HackEgo> snuffeluffegus: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
18:50:01 <boily> zzo38: I miss the first gen. I wonder if I can play the games on my ouya...
18:51:03 <zzo38> boily: If you have a GameBoy emulator (and the ROM image), or a rewrite of the game, then you can.
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18:51:24 <nooodl> zzo38: has anyone rewritten the entire game?
18:51:44 <zzo38> nooodl: I don't know, but I think some people have at least partially done so on some systems.
18:52:57 <zzo38> I once wrote how to make the Pokemon Red game on a 8x8 ASCII display and only seven buttons (none of which are pushed simultaneously), while still displaying much more information at once than the actual game, and allowing commands to be entered much more quickly than the actual game too!
18:53:05 <FireFly> If nothing else, surely you'll be able to find a Gameboy emulator for the Ouya
18:53:48 <zzo38> I had to shorten each element type to one letter, each item and move name to five letters, get rid of the species names entirely (and use only numbers), shorten nicknames to two letters, etc but it does work!
18:54:04 <zzo38> myname: I didn't write it in C, though. I just prototyped it on a paper.
18:54:28 -!- shikhin_ has changed nick to shikhin.
18:54:29 <myname> a pokemon-like game in terminal could be fun
18:54:52 <FireFly> I once wrote an RPG thing with a battle system vaguely similar to Pokémon in TI-BASIC
18:54:56 -!- shikhin has changed nick to shikhin__.
18:54:58 <FireFly> I wouldn't recommend doing that
18:55:05 <FireFly> TI-BASIC isn't terribly fun to program in
18:55:33 <zzo38> I did write a solitaire card game in TI-92 TI-BASIC (which isn't actually BASIC)
18:55:55 -!- shikhin__ has changed nick to shikhin.
18:56:11 <FireFly> I think the most annoying part of TI-BASIC is the lack of indentation and comment syntax
18:56:13 <zzo38> myname: Yes I also wanted possibly having Pokemon game in Z-machine, even, called "Z-Pokemon" (not to confuse with "Pokemon Z").
18:56:27 <zzo38> FireFly: TI-92 supports indentation and comments.
18:59:11 <myname> do you actually argue about HOW crappy it was?
19:00:01 <zzo38> In 8x8 Pokemon game I had, in battle you push up/down/left/right for each attack (each direction corresponds to an attack), A to shift, B to use item, C to escape or surrender (you will blacked out if you surrender, and lose money just as if you have lost the battle normally). Outside of battle, run into an object to activate it, A to pokemons, B to items, C for a status screen (which also allows saving game and using HMs).
19:01:20 <zzo38> Some features are omitted such as the Pokedex and what a lot of the people say.
19:01:21 <fizzie> FireFly: You can "indent" in TI-86 BASIC, with extra ":"s.
19:01:32 <fizzie> FireFly: (Though there isn't that much screen space to indent to.)
19:01:48 <zzo38> But all of the important parts are there.
19:01:51 <fizzie> Assuming ":" was the command separation character.
19:01:54 <FireFly> fizzie: I recall that making the programs run noticeably slower though
19:02:00 <myname> "can't indent, fill with NOPs"
19:02:05 <fizzie> FireFly: Well, yes, it's a tradeoff. :p
19:02:51 <myname> it sounds very very creepy
19:03:00 <boily> is the TI-86 that slow that doing a 1-cycle NOP noticeably slow it???
19:03:28 <myname> boily: if you do like 2 to 6 before EVERY command
19:03:30 <FireFly> Well, doing enough of them to have it act as indentation did, as I recall anyway
19:03:54 <boily> myname: I mean, the machine's clocked at 6 MHz!
19:03:58 <FireFly> And yes, that is fairly bad
19:04:20 <FireFly> This was on the TI-82 stat
19:05:08 <FireFly> Oh, same clock speed though
19:05:36 <boily> speed and frequency are the same thing :D
19:05:52 <boily> (in a very much warped out universe)
19:06:15 <FireFly> I suppose, but using "speed" there felt wrong
19:06:30 <FireFly> but I guess both are s⁻¹ in the context of CPUs
19:07:15 <zzo38> If you play Dungeons&Dragons game, can you tell me if the list of things I needed to prepare and request of the kingdom was a good one, or what I missed or whatever?
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19:15:42 <boily> zzo38: which kingdom? are you refering to the level20.tex file?
19:16:48 <zzo38> boily: The level20.tex is the game, yes, but the list of things is in the IRC log (I will find and copy it out for you). It is the kingdom that I managed to save
19:17:21 <Bike> good job on that
19:18:47 <boily> ain't no job that can't be enlatexed.
19:19:21 <boily> (btw, I've been lagging on the last few updates... oh well. I'll wait for a few more sgeo quotes, then batch everything together.)
19:19:25 <zzo38> What does "enlatexed" mean?
19:19:39 <boily> to transcribe into LaTeX.
19:20:08 <zzo38> Ah, yes, a lot of things can be done with that.
19:20:32 <HackEgo> 258) <zzo38> I also do not like that it should be disallow just because of too weird. They haveto make up more name so that not everyone has the same name!!! \ 717) <monqy> Sgeo: I used to have strict requirements for when I said hi but then everyone started saying hi and it all got weird \ 749) <Lumpio-> STOP CAPITALIZING <Lumpio-> It's making me
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19:21:14 <Bike> and aren't you glad we did, lumpi- oh. gone. i guess we stopped capitalizing.
19:21:17 <HackEgo> 298) <zzo38> <elliott> <quintopia> i know it's unusual, but i agree with you both to some extent \ 1072) <zzo38> TeX is a bit unusual when doing things other than typesetting
19:21:51 <boily> Bike: lumpio? capitalizing?
19:21:52 <fizzie> boily: It's not a 1-cycle NOP, it's an empty BASIC instruction.
19:22:03 <boily> fizzie: good point.
19:22:07 <fizzie> boily: The BASIC interpreter is incredibly slow, as are all other ROM routines on that thing.
19:22:46 <fizzie> boily: mooz (of #esoteric 2003 fame) disassembled the BCD-float math routines on it and said they could probably be orders of magnitude faster, for example.
19:23:21 <boily> i vois too, i vois tooooo, iiiiii vois toooo ♪
19:23:32 <boily> (sorry. that's just inherently funny to sing ☺)
19:25:44 <zzo38> OK I found it in 2013-10-14
19:26:04 <Bike> oh shit, i thought that was today.
19:26:05 <zzo38> I like this HackEgo you can search the logs
19:26:14 <fizzie> Random fact of the day: TI-86 math works with 10-byte full-software floats. (One byte of flags, incl. sign; two bytes for a power-of-ten exponent in the -999..999 range encoded with a bias of 0xfc00; seven bytes for a 14-digit BCD mantissa.)
19:26:43 <zzo38> In Dungeons&Dragons game, I have to do some prepare (including to ask things of the kingdom) before continuing on the next quest. I have some ideas; tell me if you think I missed something? * Ask for a spare space on a shelf to store my books and stuff I don't need to carry to there * Request a boat or boat ticket * Summon a familiar
19:27:03 <zzo38> * Study the Calimsham some more * Find religious ties in Church of Gxxyuxihuvxi in both cities * Try to ask father's friend if he is a speaker in dreams * Get the Calimsham advisor and others who may need to come
19:27:03 <boily> fizzie: but whyyyyy?
19:27:08 <zzo38> boily: There it is.
19:27:37 <boily> zzo38: oh, nice! but why is the Chuch name in Albanian?
19:27:41 <fizzie> boily: Decimal formats maybe have a bit less cases where they do unintuitive things, since you can at least represent most inputs exactly.
19:27:58 <zzo38> boily: It isn't in Albanian, maybe it resembles Albanian but I don't know.
19:29:19 <fizzie> One thing that's slightly funny is that you could easily fit a -9999..9999 exponent range in those bits; but maybe that's a market segmentation thing. (Or maybe it really made something easier, who knows.)
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19:29:42 <boily> zzo38: according to my d&ding experience, always have a familiar with you. very useful against TPK.
19:29:58 <Bike> http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/aps.1364/abstract Psychoanalysis is the best
19:30:23 <zzo38> boily: That isn't the purpose here but yes that can be one purpose. (Furthermore there aren't any other players at this time)
19:31:18 <boily> zzo38: if you're talking to people, always ask your way around about presence of agents provocateurs, extremist factions, sects, conspiracies, and stuff.
19:31:34 <Bike> you're playing D&D by yourself?
19:31:55 <fizzie> kmc: I've spent like four hours reading Xen internals, because I'm terribly tempted by that XenRust idea, even though I know beforehand I'd (at best) just make something borderline working and then abandon it in ~/src.
19:31:57 <zzo38> Bike: No. It is possible other players will come in but they usually don't by now; however there is still a DM
19:32:00 * JesseH needs someone to play RPGs with :P
19:32:08 <fizzie> (Though at least it's been moderately interesting. I did learn -- in retrospect, unsurprising -- that paravirtualized Linux-on-Xen on x86-64 runs the guest kernel in ring 3 too. (The x86-32 implementation has the guest kernel in ring 1; both have Xen itself in ring 0 and guest userland in ring 3, of course.))
19:32:26 <zzo38> boily: Yes, I know I have to learn about those things too.
19:32:27 <JesseH> Whose D&D game is this?
19:32:40 <HackEgo> http://zzo38computer.org/dnd/recording/level20.tex (the precompiled .dvi is also available)
19:32:45 <zzo38> JesseH: It is that one
19:33:15 * JesseH thought that he got lucky and found players
19:33:24 <JesseH> That's a long thing to read btw
19:34:43 <zzo38> boily: To know the current situation,read the part near the end of the file; it is a letter I transcribed
19:34:49 <boily> seems that you don't exists yet. are you sure that you're not Canadian?
19:35:59 <zzo38> I have to beat Aberration Hater and unimprison my character's father.
19:36:08 * FireFly has 'em on altgr+shift+hjkl
19:36:14 <JesseH> zzo38, dont do it, its a trap
19:36:24 <JesseH> your father is already dead
19:36:26 <JesseH> they want to kill you too
19:36:31 <Bike> what"s␣up␣friends
19:36:33 <zzo38> JesseH: I considered that.
19:36:47 <JesseH> bike, i ride you everyday
19:36:47 <zzo38> I think it is a possibility. That is why I am going to check things first!
19:36:59 <zzo38> I have all the spells and psychic communications to check things.
19:37:00 <JesseH> That wasn't supposed to be dirty.......
19:37:08 <boily> JesseH: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QWERTY#Canadian_Multilingual_Standard
19:37:09 <zzo38> And if they do want to kill me do then maybe I can beat them up too
19:37:20 <JesseH> boily, I am not canadan
19:37:46 <boily> zzo38: do you have any necromancy spells available?
19:38:16 <zzo38> boily: Of that school, yes, but not the ones to raise dead and kill someone dead and stuff like that.
19:38:38 <boily> zzo38: I was thinking along the speak-with-the-dead line.
19:38:58 <zzo38> boily: Ah. Well, I do have speak-with-the-living line, so I can use that on two different people.
19:39:31 <boily> spell schools are confusing. imo, everything should be under conjurations. need to make it rain? *BOOM* rain. fireball? *BOOM* fireball. diplomacy with an emissary from an exotic nation? *BOOM* instant trade agreement.
19:40:09 <boily> zzo38: just to troll my GM next time, I should try to setup a P2P network between cadavers :D
19:40:32 <zzo38> I don't use that. I have no fireballs, if I need fire I can cast a different spell (energy ray), or just light a fire using a torch.
19:40:57 <Bike> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Transhumanist_Wager
19:41:47 <boily> Bike: “compared to the Ayn Rand novel Atlas Shrugged”
19:41:49 <zzo38> I have "Correspond" and will use that on both my father and my father's friend.
19:42:11 <zzo38> boily: What character do you play? Do you have a familiar and if so which one? What spells, if any?
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19:44:38 <boily> zzo38: I play a custom monk-druid mix. I have a legacy spectral seagull. I can summon porcupines, crocodiles and pantheras.
19:46:24 <zzo38> The familiar I wanted is a leech but there are no stats for that
19:46:52 <Bike> iirc leeches are basically considered one hit kill able.
19:47:13 <zzo38> Familiars have modified hit points though
19:47:32 <zzo38> But in general I suppose so
19:47:41 <Bike> i don't think you're going to beef up a leech to the point where it can take a hit from a sword and not die.
19:48:11 <zzo38> I can think we can.
19:48:33 <Bike> you can think you can, but that think will be wrong.
19:48:53 <zzo38> Do you know the rules for familiars?
19:49:26 <boily> the exact rules as prescribed by WotC? no.
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19:49:59 <zzo38> I think familiars have the same hit points according to its master's level regardless of what animal it is or its Con score, and also get bonus AC
19:50:29 <boily> I think you can just gurps it, and have something custom that goes well with the RP.
19:50:46 <zzo38> I'm not playing GURPS.
19:51:00 <zzo38> (Nor do I know how)
19:53:05 <boily> what I meant is: start with a blank character sheet, fill in the necessary stats, and treat your familiar as a PC.
19:53:21 <zzo38> A familiar isn't a PC.
19:53:47 <zzo38> Although the stats can be filled in for NPCs too in that way I suppose.
19:54:44 <zzo38> Some familiars also have a power when in range with the master, and/or a power anywhere, so I can make up stuff like that too and see if it is good.
19:57:32 <zzo38> A familiar is also useful if you want to cast a "you" spell on someone other than yourself.
20:01:26 <zzo38> If you know the stats you can tell me I will write it down.
20:02:35 <boily> I may have a copy somewhere in my inbox, perhaps, maybe, peut-être...
20:03:33 <zzo38> I am not very good at French, sorry.
20:04:01 <boily> no worries, I have a draft PDF, written in English.
20:04:05 <zzo38> Does anyone in your game have a familiar?
20:04:24 <zzo38> I do not need the entire fire.
20:04:36 -!- oerjan has joined.
20:05:04 <boily> zzo38: only me, the PDF is small, and I need your e-mail address.
20:05:26 <zzo38> I don't have any email.
20:05:33 <boily> (!siaçnarf el sdnerppa)
20:06:12 <boily> (this subliminal message was presented to you by the Groupe d'Action Populaire pour la Propagation du Français)
20:06:18 <zzo38> Also some PDF files don't work in my computer.
20:06:40 <zzo38> If you copy the relevant stats in one line of text I can deal with that however.
20:06:52 <boily> not sure it'll work, but I'll try.
20:08:20 <oerjan> shachaf: it's the stereotypical norwegian meal these days, so approximately.
20:10:11 <boily> zzo38: the stats: Str 12 Dex 20 Wis 14 Con 17 lnt 3 Cha 7
20:10:24 <boily> (and a bunch of other stuff I'm trying to one-line-format)
20:10:40 <oerjan> also https://www.facebook.com/elliot.waldman
20:11:15 <zzo38> The Int (not "lnt") for normal animals is 1 or 2, not 3. For a familiar, it is overridden (the normal Int score is ignored), however. OK?
20:11:27 <^v> i call bullshit
20:11:28 <^v> http://puu.sh/4QYKt.png
20:11:34 <^v> /wrong channel
20:12:16 <boily> zzo38: here it comes...
20:12:19 <boily> Mouette (a.k.a. Living Zephyr) // Medium elemental magical beast // HP your bloodied value // Init Yours // AC 14, Fortitude 13, Reflex 14, Will 13 (add your level to each defense) // Perception Yours + 2 // Speed 0, fly 6 (hover; altitude limit 2) // Traits: Debris Cloud ✦ Aura 2 The aura is lightly obscured to enemies. // Standard actions: Animal Attack ✦ At-Will // Attack: Melee 1 (one creature);
20:12:21 <boily> your level + 5 vs. AC Hit: 1d10 + your Wisdom modifier damage, and the zephyr can slide the target 1 square. // Str 12 Dex 20 Wis 14 Con 17 lnt 3 Cha 7 // Feats Staff Expertise, Battlewise, Improved defences, Mark of healing, Spirit stalker, Mending spirit // Resilient focus: You have a +2 feat bonus to saving throws.
20:12:39 * oerjan ponders an irc client which posts wrongly spelled /commands to the channel instead.
20:13:00 <zzo38> boily: O, so that is for the Living Zephyr.
20:13:10 <zzo38> I wanted the stats for the small leech though.
20:14:12 <zzo38> (Anyways that isn't a valid familiar for 3.5E)
20:14:24 <boily> indeed. that's a 4e seagull.
20:14:37 <boily> I'll have to ask my GM for leech stats.
20:14:59 <boily> (probably going to be useful some day for our ongoing campaign, knowing the kind of situations we find ourselves in)
20:15:08 <zzo38> A valid familiar consists of stats for an unmodified animal, adjusted according to the rules for familiars (not its own rules), plus any special powers that may be available to familiars of that type.
20:15:15 <zzo38> boily: What kind of situations are those?
20:15:38 <boily> zzo38: slimituations.
20:16:05 <zzo38> Is that a real word?
20:18:43 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has joined.
20:19:10 <zzo38> Then please tell me what is it meaning if you just made it up?
20:19:16 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has changed nick to nisstyre.
20:19:43 <zzo38> I play this D&D game tomorrow, so I am writing down this list of stuff on this paper since he asked me to write what I needed prepare/request
20:21:19 <boily> zzo38: slimy situations.
20:21:42 <zzo38> O, slimy situations. OK.
20:22:46 <boily> and profundly, deeply, markedly stupid situations where the Facepalms Echo along the Great Cosmos.
20:22:51 <zzo38> What kind of slimy situations, do you have example?
20:23:18 <boily> eh... voluntarily throwing oneself in a stagnating puddle of mutagenic fluid?
20:23:54 <boily> traversing a putrid swamp made of slithering snakes?
20:24:09 <zzo38> Do you go into the puddle to avoid being caught by someone else?
20:24:16 -!- JesseH has left ("Leaving").
20:24:45 <boily> oh, no. my friend just likes to pinball his character in the most gore and unselfpreservating way.
20:24:47 <zzo38> I did go into a swamp with snakes once, but I had wood boots for everyone in the party so the snakes didn't hurt us too badly.
20:25:10 <zzo38> You can play pinball with D&D?
20:25:52 <boily> metaphoric pinball. like, random flailing around, rampant ADHD, and trying to find the most unwholesome way to achieve something, preferably by hitting the most people along the way.
20:26:03 <boily> (hitting physically, hitting romantically, hitting psychically...)
20:26:24 <boily> that, and butchering the French language at each sentence :D
20:27:32 <zzo38> O, like that. It isn't how I play this game, though, I prefer to hit people on the way when necessary and not hit anyone when it isn't necessary.
20:27:48 <boily> oerjan: c'est mignon.
20:28:45 <boily> zzo38: our team tends to act like a bunch of overly inquisitive thugs. ingame, we are nicknamed Explosion-on-the-Ocean.
20:30:08 <zzo38> I do strange things a lot, but due to what I think seem reasonable to the situation and to plan ahead, not to just do crazy things for no reason (unless there isn't anything else to do).
20:30:09 <oerjan> were any actual (ingame) oceans harmed in the making of that nickname
20:30:54 <boily> oerjan: oceans? pfshaw. you lack ambition :P
20:31:17 <boily> we completely annihilated the whole multiverse and their gods during our last campaign. MWAH AH AH AH AH!
20:32:11 <zzo38> boily: Oops! Unless that was the goal, you lose! (If it was the goal, congratulation you win!)
20:32:12 <oerjan> boily: also did jesseh essentially provide his approximate coordinates unasked
20:32:16 <boily> (serial escalation with drama, trahisons, heel turns, overpowered scrolls, armies, end of the world summonings, and things to that effect)
20:32:40 <boily> zzo38: it... uhm... I think it was a goal, somehow. nevertheless, it was grandiose.
20:33:24 <boily> oerjan: no, I resisted the temptation to get too much details, unless you are talking about the fact he provided me with a town, where I only had a state beforehand.
20:33:26 <zzo38> Were there other necessary goals too? If so, you would have had to do those other things at first if you want it to count, otherwise you will still lose.
20:33:55 <boily> zzo38: I'll have to dig to find the journal of that fateful day.
20:34:53 <boily> oerjan: in that case, I think that's a yes.
20:35:52 <oerjan> after all, it's not like the approximations are reliably _better_ than town size.
20:36:22 <oerjan> i recall that guy who provided coordinates for approximately the midpoint of washington state.
20:37:01 <oerjan> (and later mentioned being in olympia, iirc)
20:37:11 <boily> Bike's coördinates are very unprecise, and are very washingtonian.
20:37:47 <boily> (and why in fungot did I put Norrköpingsvägen for olsner...)
20:37:47 <fungot> boily: if that is not used commonly and carries with it an array subscript was too easy heh one time i figured if it's possible, notify the notary.
20:37:52 <oerjan> it may have been him. if the coordinates are in the middle of a forest nowhere.
20:38:18 <boily> fungot: exactly what I'm thinking.
20:38:19 <fungot> boily: uh, sorry, i have no information. he seemed, in fine, i can verify it up, leaving the new information could be provided that it is.
20:38:30 <boily> fungot: darn. foiled by your lack of information!
20:38:30 <fungot> boily: to, uhhh.... like nuns in the street, and has not named a
20:38:46 <boily> fungot: sadly, there aren't many streetwise nuns left.
20:38:46 <fungot> boily: that is just a value of type " airbus is a big fan of avril....but this song " there
20:38:56 <boily> aaaaaah, good airbus memories...
20:39:23 <FireFly> Did fungot just offer to verify olsner's Norrköpingsvägen address??
20:39:23 <fungot> FireFly: just to help an fnord archive) when it suffices that fnord is fnord to me is my fnord' doggie than a dozen tales, of the whole fnord range of the ' ' ' delete a value of type is created containing the syntax for mark if he was really gonna get worse and worse each week,
20:39:31 <zzo38> Can you make up stats for the small leech? (not the big one)
20:39:51 <FireFly> fungot: that's enough fnord for this week for you
20:39:51 <fungot> FireFly: just to help an fnord archive)
20:40:05 <zzo38> (Even if killed in one hit that's OK because that is automatically overridden anyways)
20:40:41 <zzo38> FireFly: Then change the mode to something other than "fnord".
20:40:55 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot* homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
20:41:22 <fungot> Selected style: irc (IRC logs of freenode/#esoteric, freenode/#scheme and ircnet/#douglasadams)
20:41:41 <FireFly> I guess it's the only style generating actually interesting lines
20:41:45 <fungot> FireFly: thats why the terminator should be n... the output is the same
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20:41:55 <oerjan> recursive mode, in honor of yudkowsky's invited talk at MIT which i just read of in scott aaronson's blog
20:42:31 <Bike> who invited him to talk
20:43:13 <Bike> aaronson's "rationalist" streak is so annoying ~_~
20:43:17 <oerjan> also in the same blog post and comments, you can deduce that aaronson doesn't have web design sense.
20:44:07 <Bike> not a fan of embedded whatevertex?
20:44:17 <Bike> oh wow that shit is ugly
20:44:22 <oerjan> well that part is ok, although it doesn't seem to work in the rss.
20:44:28 <Bike> you ain't kiddin here
20:44:51 <Bike> giant fucking thumbs
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20:45:07 <oerjan> and accidentally making every comment bold
20:45:40 <Bike> i almost want to know why they're not doing "singularity" crap any more but then i'd have to pay attention to them...
20:46:02 <kmc> they sold the word "singularity" to Singularity University
20:46:21 <oerjan> and also breaking comment formatting.
20:46:21 <kmc> and replaced all their references to it with "intelligence explosion" or something
20:46:33 <Bike> i can't tell how joking you are
20:46:45 <kmc> shrug, this is the story i heard
20:46:46 <oerjan> next, they will replace it by "suffusion of yellow" (nomic joke)
20:47:37 <Bike> overcurious yellow (book joke??)
20:48:10 <kmc> dongs (dong joke)
20:49:33 <fizzie> FireFly: The other ones do actually interesting lines (well, allegedly) too, just rarely.
20:49:40 <olsner> oerjan: what's recursive mode?
20:49:54 <fungot> oerjan: come on, nobody's allowed to use it as a guide, where the module system in scheme
20:49:55 <fizzie> kmc: Now I've installed Xen in a qemu and it's entirely your fault.
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20:54:02 <lexande> Bike: what kmc said re: "singularity" is entirely correct/not a joke
20:54:44 <Bike> i wwas afraid of that
20:55:00 <Bike> i didn't even know "singularity" was trademarked
20:55:54 <kmc> i don't know if it's a legal thing or just "we want to not get confused with you guys"
20:55:57 <oerjan> <boily> “fnord java has a consistent api with a design in mind” <-- it's like java, except designed by the illuminati and therefore much more powerful.
20:56:18 <lexande> Bike: it was not trademarked
20:56:40 <Bike> so was it actually sold or what
20:56:50 <olsner> fizzie: are you going to make xenrust now?
20:57:02 <fizzie> olsner: I sure hope not.
20:57:15 <fizzie> olsner: But I suppose I'll fiddle with at least something that runs under PV Xen.
20:57:32 <fizzie> olsner: Maybe I'll make a Xefunge-98 interpreter to run fungot on.
20:57:32 <fungot> fizzie: but it creates an object
20:57:57 <fizzie> fungot: Oh, well, never mind then.
20:57:58 <fungot> fizzie: but the generated core is less clever ( no real optimisations) but a lot
20:58:07 <fizzie> Yeah, I'm sure it wouldn't be very clever.
20:58:48 <olsner> did you find some nice documentation on how to build a PV something for running in xen?
21:00:17 * oerjan swats FireFly -----###
21:00:34 <Bike> wait, no, i'm paying attention, oops
21:01:07 <kmc> fizzie: btw I saw there are already some mailing list posts about rust on xen
21:01:18 <kmc> and you could definitely ask in #rust on irc.mozilla.org
21:01:44 <shachaf> wait can i sell words to people
21:01:52 <shachaf> kmc: want to buy some good words
21:02:05 <kmc> which ones tho
21:02:16 <shachaf> if i tell you you might steal them!!
21:02:38 <kmc> we need a zero knowledge proof
21:03:06 <lexande> Bike: the former "Singularity Institute" sold the singularity.org domain name to "Singularity University", along with the rights to run the "Singularity Summit" conference and an agreement not to use the word "singularity" much anymore
21:03:55 <lexande> which kind of reminds me of when London realised they needed to replace London Bridge
21:04:12 <lexande> and somebody had the bright idea that they could probably get somebody to buy the old one
21:04:21 <Fiora> so like, they cashed out the name?
21:04:36 <fizzie> kmc: I saw that too, and it didn't seem like there was anything else than those mailing list posts. (I guess I'll proceed to a Rust channel if I "master" Xen. Though it didn't really seem all too tricky, just... fiddly with page tables and such.)
21:04:54 <kmc> 420 smoke page tables every day
21:05:15 <lexande> Fiora: yes. though also i don't think they wanted to be associated with the term "singularity" so much anymore anyway
21:05:19 <fizzie> olsner: No, but I found all kinds of bits and pieces that could charitably be called documentation that did form some sort of a coherent picture.
21:05:48 <kmc> lexande: why not
21:06:28 <Fiora> lexande: makes sense
21:07:21 <fizzie> olsner: Things like a 2006 paper on details of how the x86-64 XenLinux PV port was done (which incidentally had nice information on Xen's architecture), and some slideshows on the topic of Xen memory management, and of course there's *some* documentation also in the docs/ of the Xen repository -- and esp. in xen.h, the hypercall API spec -- it's just quite unorganized.
21:09:09 <oerjan> FireFly: now you've seen it
21:09:29 <Bike> apparently my lab was attacked by china yesterday. yay internet
21:09:59 <fizzie> olsner: And a bit temporally variable. Like, the standard PV guest kernel is an ELF executable, but they have two redundant ways of specifying the Xen-specific where-to-load-it stuff: a "__xen_guest" section at the start of the file with the data in an ASCII string, now deprecated; and a whole set of Xen-specific ELF "note" sections, which is the modern preferred way.
21:10:34 <lexande> kmc: because the term "singularity" had come to refer too much to general technoyay and not particular ideas about AI, and was a somewhat poor term for the latter anyway
21:10:53 <lexande> kmc: and because focus on the term probably makes them seem more cultish
21:12:10 <fizzie> olsner: (Plus as an alternative to a "kernel" line there's also a "bootloader" line that at least PyGrub -- a thing that lets PV guests boot a kernel "from the inside" -- uses, and that has some sort of a protocol, but I haven't found out what it was. And then there's the fact that a "kernel" line can specify a stock Linux (xen pvops-enabled) kernel which certainly isn't an ELF file, I haven't ...
21:12:16 <fizzie> ... really found details on that yet.)
21:12:25 <lexande> which is a problem they have enough as it is
21:12:36 <oerjan> lexande: as opposed to "intelligence explosion" *cough*
21:13:04 <lexande> well that's not in their name anymore
21:13:09 <boily> oerjan: one: you found the swatter? two: why FireFly?
21:13:13 <kmc> it's adorable how this cult tries so hard to not sound like a cult
21:13:17 <olsner> I think linux kernels are normally ELF files, because qemu's -kernel options takes an ELF kernel
21:13:28 <lexande> but yes "intelligence explosion" is less vague and mystical-sounding
21:13:31 <oerjan> boily: i have always had the swatter. also, flies need swatting.
21:13:38 <olsner> but for a Xen kernel you might need those extra notes perhaps
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21:14:05 <boily> oerjan: makes sense. now I remember having had to swat someone this morning, but I can't recall whom.
21:14:18 <lexande> kmc: i think there are cults that try harder
21:14:18 <kmc> olsner: really, it doesn't take a zImage / bzImage?
21:14:21 <kmc> maybe both
21:14:38 <fizzie> olsner: There certainly isn't a ELF header at the start of a bzImage.
21:15:08 <lexande> e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landmark_Forum
21:15:09 <olsner> I think-know it takes ELFs and multiboot images at least, but it might take zimages and bzimages as well
21:15:34 <fizzie> olsner: Well, it wouldn't be very surprising if Xen did too.
21:15:35 <kmc> i think you get an ELF kernel as part of the kernel build process but it's not generally considered the final result
21:15:40 <kmc> (unless you're building UML, of course!)
21:15:43 <FireFly> boily: I've gotten used to it
21:16:08 <kmc> also I like that Linux still doesn't use multiboot despite GRUB being the preferred bootloader on PC hardware
21:16:15 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: pastlogs: not found
21:16:39 <olsner> do any mainstream oses actually use multiboot?
21:16:40 <FireFly> Hurry up already, HackEgo. you can do it
21:16:57 <boily> on my current machine I'm stuck with a legacy grub that I fear to update due to a stupid rm -rf made in /var one day...
21:17:08 <fizzie> olsner: Oh, and that PyGrub is a Python thing that runs in dom0 and reads a kernel from the guest filesystem using filesystem drivers extracted from GRUB -- but there's also PvGrub, which runs a paravirtualized variant of Grub inside the domU and boots like that.
21:17:15 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.24793
21:17:26 <olsner> multiboot seems to be mostly used for "OSes not big enough to build their own system and convince a boot loader to support it"
21:17:37 <oerjan> boily: it was shachaf, but i have a rule about not swatting shachaf because he likes it too much.
21:17:42 <fizzie> olsner: The idea being that if you have a bug in the filesystem drivers, a maliciously crafted guest filesystem can't infect the dom0.
21:18:48 <fizzie> I think NetBSD at least supports building the kernel as a multiboot image.
21:18:55 <fizzie> Not sure if it's standard practice or not.
21:19:03 <fizzie> I'm sure there's some kind of a kludge like that for Linux too.
21:19:29 <shachaf> does this have to do with pizza
21:19:32 -!- nisstyre has quit (Quit: Leaving).
21:20:16 <boily> shachaf: if you like swatting yourself with pizza, then yes, it is you that were.
21:20:52 <shachaf> i wasn't aware that i liked being swatted
21:22:33 <fizzie> olsner: Besides, isn't GNU Hurd a mainstream OS?
21:23:43 <fizzie> olsner: Oh, and the Xen hypervisor itself is a multiboot image, that's the only supported way to boot it. Though it doesn't quite qualify as an OS, probably.
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21:24:36 * kmc make -j8 || make -j8
21:24:57 <kmc> fizzie: my housemate geofft keeps threatening to add more of a userspace to GRUB
21:24:59 <olsner> I haven't quite understood how Xen works though, is there an actual hypervisor outside the dom0 kernel?
21:25:42 <boily> why make after make?
21:25:45 <kmc> iirc yes, the dom0 kernel is also paravirtualized, it just has special powers to ask the hypervisor to do things
21:25:50 <kmc> boily: because sometimes it fails the first time.
21:26:36 <fizzie> kmc: To do... what, exactly?
21:26:44 <boily> kmc: that's vile, but it's make, so nothing surprising there.
21:27:02 <Bike> to make sure it's make'd
21:27:07 <kmc> boot up new domUs i guess
21:27:09 <kmc> and kill them
21:27:11 <kmc> and do things to them
21:27:18 <fizzie> kmc: Also to talk directly to hardware.
21:27:52 <fizzie> kmc: And the "To do... what" was referring to the GRUB userspace. :p
21:30:21 <Bike> to boot things up and kill them and do things to them
21:31:02 <fizzie> These days there are also "driver domains", which is a unprivileged domain that's been given dominion over a particular hardware device, and it runs a pruned kernel with a driver for that piece of hardware; the idea being, again, that if the driver borks, rest of the system will survive and can even try restarting the driver domain.
21:31:07 <kmc> fizzie: oh
21:31:36 <kmc> fizzie: uh to do various crypto things relating to secure boot, I think, but really because GRUB is the GNU kernel and it needs a userspace
21:31:46 <Bike> "Reading Surfaces and Essences is like biting an apple and finding half a worm. It's like a pancake eating contest. It is the Phantom Menace of cognitive science literature."
21:31:53 <fizzie> There's that GRUB Invaders already, though.
21:31:59 <fizzie> So I guess it's got games.
21:32:36 <fizzie> Though I suppose it's not really part of the "GRUB userland" since it's a "kernel" started by GRUB.
21:33:55 <elliott> kmc: can you implement POSIX on top of GRUB?
21:34:19 <kmc> bold questions
21:35:24 <olsner> does posix require virtual memory and preemptive multitasking?
21:37:46 <boily> does a fungot produce sane sentences?
21:37:46 <fungot> boily: egads, a giant fuss.
21:37:47 <fizzie> Anyhoo, most of the complexities described in the PV-XenLinux paper were about trying to paravirtualize Linux with the least amount of changes, and to deal with the fact that it needs to separate guest-kernel from guest-userspace while both are in ring 3, which made it sound like porting a language (in a single-application scenario) could be simpler; no need to start with something that ...
21:37:53 <fizzie> ... expects to run on real hardware, and safety for the "userland" because of what it's written in plus it's all in the same boat anyway.
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21:39:27 <fizzie> olsner: I don't think threads are optional at least in current POSIX.
21:39:38 <fizzie> Some other bits (the ones with feature codes) are.
21:40:00 <Bike> is it required that threads use preemptive multitasking
21:40:01 <fizzie> Like TCT for "Thread CPU-Time Clocks" and TPS for "Thread Execution Scheduling".
21:40:18 <fizzie> Have to see what that TPS means.
21:40:28 <Bike> no i like this expansion
21:40:38 <olsner> oh well, whatever is missing to implement POSIX I guess you'd just have to add it to grub and that'd be that
21:43:58 <fizzie> Bike: Good, because I don't know if I can wade through the POSIXtalk of the "Thread Scheduling" section to see what it really means.
21:44:17 <fizzie> "If the Thread Execution Scheduling option is defined, and the schedpolicy attribute specifies one of the priority-based policies defined under this option, the schedparam attribute contains the scheduling priority of the thread. A conforming implementation ensures that the priority value in schedparam is in the range associated with the scheduling policy when the thread attributes object is ...
21:44:23 <fizzie> ... used to create a thread, or when the scheduling attributes of a thread are dynamically modified."
21:44:26 <fizzie> It's that sort of stuff.
21:44:32 <Bike> the important thing is i'm imagining a system that just runs threads one after another.
21:44:55 <fizzie> Like, not even cooperatively multitasking them?
21:44:55 <olsner> some kind of time-sharing system?
21:45:09 <Bike> yeah, just one at a time. would that conform?
21:45:44 <fizzie> I don't know about the letter of the law, but it's quite clearly not within the spirit of it.
21:46:36 <Bike> coward. let's do this. kmc call your friend, it's time to write the Incompatible Timestealing System
21:47:06 <fizzie> Though the only explicit mentions of preemption do seem to be in sections marked with TPS and PS ("Process Scheduling").
21:48:31 <fizzie> Bike: I guess that could sort of work if your threads would do things like "okay, has the operation I'm waiting for completed yet? no? well, let's spawn a new thread and exit, and hope something else gets scheduled in-between".
21:49:21 <Bike> that's basically cooperative multitasking, innit
21:49:34 <fizzie> Well, no, that'd be "let's yield and continue".
21:49:42 <fizzie> It's a crucial semantic difference.
21:50:22 <fizzie> Well, you see, the thing that gets to continue would be a completely new thread and not just a continuation of some old.
21:50:36 <Bike> but it would work out pretty similarly. right?
21:50:56 <fizzie> Mmmmaybe if you want to focus on practical notions, but I mean, spiritually!
21:51:16 <fizzie> The new threads would be free of all the emotional baggage of their predecessors and mumble mumble hype hype.
21:51:34 <Bike> you're right, i shouldn't neglect the spiritual dimension. maybe i'll take a tour of duty in a hadoop monastery
21:51:45 <olsner> emotional baggage is probably the biggest performance sink in modern multitasking system
21:58:37 <oerjan> i think maybe the Incompatible Timestealing System should use a firm LIFO policy on running.
21:59:41 <fizzie> oerjan: To prevent nasty hacks like the aforementioned crude attempt at emulating cöpperated multitasking?
22:00:10 <Bike> good thinking, good thinkin
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23:00:46 <kmc> http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=cubic+light+year+of+butter
23:01:58 <ion> It should tell how many animals were killed for that.
23:02:36 <Fiora> wouldn't that collapse into a black hole?
23:02:57 <Fiora> actually isn't that already a black hole. like. isn't the schwarzchild radius of that bigger
23:03:06 <ion> ITYM yellow hole
23:03:15 <impomatic> I still haven't managed to find the source code for Jintori, the 2D programming language :-(
23:03:49 <Fiora> ((1 light year)^3) * ((0.96 grams) per (cubic centimeter)) = 4.08658746 × 10^20 solar masses
23:03:52 <Fiora> okay um. that's big
23:04:45 <kmc> so you get a black hole if you have enough matter even if it's not very dense?
23:05:44 -!- muskrat has joined.
23:06:51 <Fiora> black holes aren't really that dense
23:08:42 <Fiora> a 1 billion solar mass black hole is 50 times less dense than water
23:10:01 <Fiora> the schwarzchild radius grows linearly with the mass, so the density drops with the cube of the mass, I think?
23:10:07 <Fiora> erm, the square of the mass
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23:14:46 <kmc> but there is some minimum density right?
23:14:58 <kmc> like if you have just a huge diffuse cloud of hydrogen, that won't eventually form into a black hole will it
23:15:34 <oerjan> um you know how stars get formed don't you...
23:15:38 <kmc> not really
23:15:54 <oerjan> well, you start with a huge diffuse cloud of hydrogen...
23:16:19 <Bike> can't you form the helium through fusion.
23:16:26 <kmc> how is sttar formed, how fusion get ignated
23:16:43 <oerjan> well you _can_ it's just that primordial matter is about 25% helium
23:17:03 <pikhq> Bike: Yes. The helium isn't necessary, it just so happens that you don't have clouds of pure hydrogen, you have clouds of mostly hydrogen.
23:17:42 <oerjan> then you get a star, and if it is big enough, part of it will eventually form a black hole once it stops fusioning.
23:17:59 <kmc> while it's fusioning the energy going out keeps it from collapsing?
23:18:11 <Fiora> that's the idea of stars, the energy from fusion counteracts gravity
23:18:19 <kmc> convenient
23:18:33 <Fiora> interesting thing I remember reading the other day, the largest any cold astronomical body can get is about the size of jupiter
23:18:50 <Fiora> it can get bigger while being hot (fusion) like a star
23:18:53 <oerjan> also the final stage is sufficiently violent that most of the mass actually gets thrown out rather than collapsing.
23:18:57 <Fiora> but like, a big cold object will just shrink because of gravity
23:19:11 <oerjan> (you may have heard of "supernovas")
23:19:13 <Fiora> that's why white dwarfs get smaller as they get heavier
23:19:19 <Fiora> and then neutron stars also get smaller as they get heavier
23:19:39 <kmc> whereas I get bigger as I get heavier
23:19:50 <pikhq> Only up to a certain point.
23:19:54 <kmc> but I'm made of metal
23:20:03 <pikhq> If you eat solar systems you'll get smaller as well.
23:20:18 <pikhq> Note, don't eat solar systems.
23:20:24 <Fiora> I like my solar system :<
23:20:30 <kmc> i won't eat *your* solar system Fiora
23:20:32 <Fiora> kmc: you'll get bigger up until about the size of jupiter, then you'll get smaller
23:20:34 <kmc> just some spare one
23:20:54 <shachaf> kmc: are you eating solar systems................it's bad for you
23:21:30 <lexande> in moderation it can still be part of a healthy diet
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23:21:55 <Fiora> technically I guess I eat part of a solar system every day?
23:21:58 <Fiora> since like. my food is part of Earth
23:22:17 <pikhq> I never thought about this. Apparently outside the event horizon is a sphere where photons that happen to be moving tangential to the sphere will be in orbit around the black hole.
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23:22:21 <pikhq> *Photons*. In orbit.
23:22:28 <Fiora> I thought that's the ISCO?
23:22:41 <Fiora> or um. like. it's a little farther ouside the event horizon or something
23:22:56 <pikhq> 1.5 times the Schwarzschild radius.
23:24:03 <pikhq> Light can still escape from there, it just so happens that objects moving at speed C tangent to the black hole's event horizon are in orbit there.
23:24:25 <Fiora> so like, at the event horizon, the only light that will escape is that pointing directly up
23:24:34 <Fiora> and at the ISCO, light pointing tangentially is at the border of escaping
23:24:38 <Fiora> that makes sense...
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