←2013-10-26 2013-10-27 2013-10-28→ ↑2013 ↑all
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00:18:26 <fizzie> Well, I did dig out that it's an alignment issue, because aligning a (manually positioned) buffer it sticks in memory on an 8-byte boundary fixes the thing. AIUI, they've had quite a lot of those. (But the test fails even when DOUBLE_MODE=1, which should be the default.)
00:20:17 <zzo38> Due to the ordinary angels in a Dungeons&Dragons game are they don't particularly like it much, and isn't very applicable to Gxxyuxihuvxi religion, I make up new ideas about "celestials of Gxxyuxihuvxi" they are different (still Outsider) creatures, which are difference from others including they have no mouth or hand or feet, but does have shiny bright wings similar to insects wings, various eyes, tentacles, and spikes, and two antennas. They have
00:29:37 <oerjan> zzo38: i am reminded of the cherubs in narbonic here: http://www.webcomicsnation.com/shaenongarrity/narbonic/series.php?view=archive&chapter=10298
00:30:27 <oerjan> (best view in the second to last strip)
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00:33:39 <oerjan> also the main picture here http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OurAngelsAreDifferent
00:35:00 <oerjan> PSA: European Collective Time Travel in 26 Minutes
00:35:21 <zzo38> Why not 25 minutes?
00:35:40 <oerjan> because i didn't notice the time changing just before pressing return.
00:37:13 <zzo38> I am not describing angels.
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00:38:00 <oerjan> well no, but i'm saying your description still is close to some stuff i've seen called angels
00:38:54 <oerjan> the tvtropes page is going on about angels not needing to look human, of course.
00:39:55 <zzo38> Ah. OK, so that is how you meant
00:42:47 <Bike> i want to say i saw cherubs with eyes before narbonic but i don't remember where
00:45:56 <Bike> well, maimonides said that the ability of zygotes to form organs were cherubim, apparently.
00:47:13 <Sgeo> I really should go ahead and write code that works with er/ir macros but not syntax-case, and code that works with syntax-case but not er/ir macros
00:47:21 <Sgeo> I mean, not translatable easily between them
00:47:43 <Sgeo> But for the Chicken Scheme code, I need to get emacs working in order for me to stay sane :/
00:47:49 <zzo38> Sgeo: Yes do that if it can show the difference between them, and possibly if they both have use to do otherwise
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00:48:04 <Sgeo> The difference, as I currently understand it:
00:48:09 <Bike> what does that even have to do with the merkabah
00:48:14 <Sgeo> er/ir allows you to only access the 'outermost' context and the macro's own context, and syntax-case lets you access your own context as well as any context of the input form, but you can't say just 'outermost context'
00:48:34 <zzo38> I also include other things: It cannot live in material plane for more than fifty hours at a time, unless there is a special blessing to do so. Two kind of eye beams are heal beam and confuse beam, and one other magical ability is to borrow some skills and intelligence points of someone they have grappled, for exactly 24 hours (after that it is reset).
00:49:34 <zzo38> (In anti-magic such effects are unusable but can continue; illuminated wings remain illuminated too. In anti-magic only physical attacks are usable, and from what I can tell there are only two: spikes and tentacles.)
00:49:43 <Bike> what the hell is a context
00:50:21 <zzo38> O, I forgot one more magic ability which is "aura of righteousness of holiness" is a continuous ability.
00:50:41 <Sgeo> Speaking about lexical contexts
00:50:54 <Sgeo> Although in the case of er/ir macros, they don't physically exist, I think
00:50:57 <Sgeo> Just conceptually
00:52:19 <Bike> uhhuh.
00:53:00 <Sgeo> Bike: ir macros are beautiful, you should learn them
00:53:23 <Sgeo> Although I think they're limited in some ways, but still trying to wrap my mind around how
00:53:28 <oerjan> PSA: European Collective Time Travel in 8 Minutes
00:53:31 <shachaf> Bike: have you learned lenses yet
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00:53:44 <oerjan> i seem to be having an off-by-one error.
00:54:32 <Sgeo> http://wiki.call-cc.org/explicit-renaming-macros
00:54:46 <Sgeo> I love ir macros, they're so easy
00:54:47 <Sgeo> >.>
00:55:01 <shachaf> Sgeo........................
00:55:34 <Sgeo> shachaf.....................
00:55:46 <shachaf> oerjan: imo who cares about european time anyway
00:55:47 <oerjan> the meme is not dead that can eternal lie
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00:56:33 <shachaf> hi mnoqy
01:00:09 <oerjan> hello past non-europeans!
01:00:10 <fizzie> fungot: Did you feel some sort of a glitch there?
01:00:11 <fungot> fizzie: 96. 154 minutes past bedtime. bye-bye. if you
01:00:23 <fizzie> I think the time warp may have confused fungot.
01:00:23 <fungot> fizzie: that's about what i thought, but it did break when i used it to show the answer is " no" without any bad connotations but if you have a distaste for writing gross boilerplate code in c
01:00:35 <Phantom__Hoover> help
01:00:37 <oerjan> fizzie: you mean more than usual?
01:00:37 <Phantom__Hoover> what time is it
01:00:49 <oerjan> it
01:00:53 <Bike> 18
01:00:55 <Phantom__Hoover> my fragile understanding of the hour has been shattered
01:00:55 <oerjan> 's 2 AM
01:01:27 <Phantom__Hoover> it's 1 am now, according to my phone
01:01:33 <zzo38> My opinion is that daylight saving time is a bad idea!
01:01:54 <oerjan> at least it is a popular opinion.
01:01:58 <fizzie> I think it's 3 AM.
01:02:15 <oerjan> oh dear we have been scattered all over the time stream
01:02:40 <shachaf> oerjan: having fun on your time-traveling peninsula?
01:02:42 <Phantom__Hoover> at some point there was an attempt to put the uk permanently in summer time, and move actual summer time an hour further forward
01:02:51 <zzo38> In here where I am, daylight saving time is not changed back yet.
01:03:01 <Phantom__Hoover> as is usual this was actually an insidious plot by the english to repress the scots, and was defeated accordingly
01:03:17 <fizzie> "dot: graph is too large for cairo-renderer bitmaps. Scaling by 0.027679 to fit" uh
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01:03:44 <Bike> that happens?
01:03:48 <fizzie> Also the end result was a 32767x15 file.
01:03:52 <zzo38> Since nobody will be here in Monday to watch Murdoch on TV, it means, that the VCR is set to record it and won't get mixed up due to daylight saving time, so it will work correctly. (However, even if it is changing, it might still work because this VCR has a setting for daylight saving time in it.)
01:03:57 <Bike> i've seen dot graphs that crash my entire computer.
01:04:18 <fizzie> Yes, but this was supposed to be like the simplest thing ever.
01:04:46 <oerjan> the simplest thing ever: less common than you'd think!
01:05:12 <zzo38> I think they should fix it so that the clock is 12 PM when it is mean noon.
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01:06:12 <shachaf> zzo38: I think 12AM should mean noon and 0AM should mean midnight
01:06:59 <shachaf> zzo38: do you logread!!
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01:12:03 <nooodl_> dst is scary
01:14:26 <olsner> kills thousands of people every spring
01:14:33 <oerjan> zzo38 doesn't believe in useable transport time tables.
01:23:20 <ais523> also, the electronic timetables in a train station I went to were showing that the trains which were scheduled at 13:40ish were late and expected to arrive at 02:08ish
01:23:55 <Bike> oerjan: such considerations matter not before "fixing" things to be "more correct"!
01:24:01 <ais523> not sure if it was a DST-related mistake, if one was 24 hours and the other was 12 hours, or if the machine incorrectly thought they were actually over 12 hours late
01:24:03 <oerjan> Bike: OKAY
01:24:28 * oerjan recalls he did once miss his train because of forgetting dst had started that day.
01:25:15 <ais523> I tend only to use trains that come frequently enough that I can just pick the next train after I arrive, whenever that is
01:26:02 <oerjan> this was long distance, so only three times a day.
01:26:22 <shachaf> there's a channel for that
01:26:25 <oerjan> well i guess that's not really about distance.
01:26:37 <oerjan> shachaf: is there a pun here.
01:26:49 <shachaf> no
01:26:54 <shachaf> #cslounge-trains
01:27:18 <shachaf> i don't "do" puns
01:27:21 <shachaf> anymore
01:27:23 <shachaf> i'm retired
01:28:01 <oerjan> or as erdős would say, died
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01:29:42 <fizzie> oerjan: Didn't he retire himself already?
01:31:34 <oerjan> fizzie: i think you are reversing the lingo.
01:32:16 <oerjan> erdős left, however.
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03:00:41 <Bike> kmc: https://twitter.com/BiciChic/status/393831136029200384/photo/1 "Just so we're clear, this is why lots of people cycle in the Netherlands. Not because it's flat."
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03:30:23 <coppro> that's pretty sweet
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03:35:58 <shachaf> oerjan: Wikipedia has articles for "posetal category" and "thin category" which seem to be about the same thing.
03:36:26 <shachaf> imo someone should mark them as duplicates or something. is there a way of doing that.......
03:42:37 <mnoqy> there's a thing for marking that one should be merged into the other at least
03:44:22 <shachaf> "which one though"
03:44:38 <shachaf> one of them is more general because it's not restricted to small categories
03:45:10 <shachaf> mnoqy: do you know about heyting algebras and things
03:46:16 <mnoqy> shachaf: never heard of it but it looks alright
03:46:41 <shachaf> well it's just like a cartesian closed lattice
03:47:08 <shachaf> so of course it's "alright"
03:47:48 <shachaf> (imo people should say "all right" instead of "alright" it would be an improvement in the world but a very small one)
03:48:17 <mnoqy> what if they said aight instead. what then.
03:49:15 <shachaf> look no need to get extreme mnoqy there's a limit to everything
03:49:26 <shachaf> well in a complete heytina algebra there is
03:49:48 <shachaf> ng
03:52:32 <mnoqy> :-)
03:52:37 <shachaf> hm so if you have arbitrary joins and finite meets in a lattice and meets distribute over joins then you can define implication(exponentials) with a -> b = join {c : c meet a <= b}
03:54:16 <shachaf> does something like that make sense in other categories
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04:23:39 <zzo38> Hello! Why do you like to change the topic with the perfume?
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04:24:52 <mnoqy> yes
04:25:55 <zzo38> I have some electronic device labeled "GTCO Corporation DIGI-PAD (R)". Do you know what this is?
04:29:36 <Bike> nope
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04:32:45 <Bike> http://joshreads.com/images/13/10/i131025heathcliff.jpg related
04:37:37 <mnoqy> good funny
04:49:10 <Sgeo> What's bad funny?
04:49:21 <Bike> this
04:55:49 <zzo38> Do you know of any program that converts between UTF, VLQ, and raw formats?
04:58:58 <zzo38> (If you convert UTF-8 to UTF-8, you get rid of overlong encodings but will retain surrogates. If you convert UTF-8 to UTF-16 and then UTF-16 to UTF-8, you will convert CESU-8 to proper UTF-8. If you convert UTF-8 to UTF-16 and then treat the result as raw 16-bit data and convert that to UTF-8, then you will get CESU-8.)
05:12:29 <pikhq> zzo38: Note that UTF-8 to UTF-16 to UTF-8 only does that *if* you don't validate the UTF-8 parsing.
05:12:57 <pikhq> UTF-16 surrogates are not valid Unicode, so UTF-8 with surrogates is a parse error.
05:13:25 <pikhq> (though this assumes the UTF-8 parser checks. If not, then that is what happens, yes)
05:13:50 <zzo38> pikhq: I am not intending to validate that it is valid Unicode or that it isn't overlong; that would be a separate option. (If it doesn't have to valid Unicode, then UTF-8 can encode up to 36-bit numbers.)
05:14:27 <pikhq> Ah, so more discussing the UTF-8 integer encoding scheme.
05:14:27 <pikhq> K.
05:14:37 <pikhq> Which really needs a better name. :P
05:15:33 <zzo38> If it checks for valid Unicode, then treating UTF-16 as raw 16-bit data and converting to UTF-8 would equally fail.
05:17:54 <zzo38> And some UTF-8 files do contain UTF-16 surrogates; such thing isn't proper Unicode but some programs might not care (VGMCK (a program I wrote) only reads UTF-8 in order to convert to UTF-16, and doesn't treat surrogates as anything special, so it will read them just fine and not be a parse error).
05:18:31 <zzo38> A program which instead decodes UTF-8 to look them up in a font might not work if it contains surrogates, though.
05:20:46 <zzo38> Do other programs allow you to enter trailing spaces that aren't stripped if you use overlong encodings?
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05:26:05 <zzo38> I would expect any that decode UTF-8 in the same way to do so, but do any other programs do that?
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08:07:13 <Taneb> Oh god I think the clocks went back last night but I'm not sure if my computer changed automatically or not so I have no idea what time it is
08:07:31 <Taneb> Okay, my computer changed automatically
08:07:43 <zzo38> There are network time servers too if required
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08:51:20 <zzo38> Are there tsume shogi for Nintendo DS?
08:54:50 <kmc> Taneb: presumably you knew the current time to be within a particular set of measure zero so that's as good as actually knowing what time it is right
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09:00:27 <Taneb> kmc, nah, I googled it
09:00:30 <zzo38> I have played a few different tsume shogi for GameBoy, from I'MAX, Imagineer, and Athena. The one from Athena is best, I think.
09:03:05 <kmc> we in the states are still in summertime
09:03:11 <kmc> for one more week
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09:51:30 <zzo38> In the place I live in Canada, it is also the daylight saving time one more week. I think because they just copied the same rule.
09:51:48 <zzo38> Maybe it is in order to do business more easily.
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10:03:16 <fizzie> "Uncaught TypeError: Object #<CanvasRenderingContext2D> has no method 'toBlob'" -- so lame.
10:03:39 <fizzie> Oh, it's on the canvas, not the context.
10:05:23 <fizzie> "Uncaught TypeError: Object #<HTMLCanvasElement> has no method 'toBlob'" well that's not any better.
10:06:08 <fizzie> "Experimental draft" "Implementation status: [empty space]" I guess that's a bit too new.
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10:24:11 <FireFly> I think one of Firefox and Chromium supports that at least
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12:59:39 <Slereah> Hey folks
12:59:45 <Slereah> What's the good C compiler for windows
12:59:54 <Slereah> I'm gonna try to esolang a bit
13:07:51 <KingOfKarlsruhe> visual studio?
13:09:44 <Slereah> Some dude advised Dev C++, is it wise
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13:37:32 <mroman> C on Windows is not wise by definition
13:41:23 <quintopia> gcc under mingw?
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13:46:35 <Koen_> I'm following a haskell "tutorial" that seems aimed at "imperative programmers"
13:47:23 <Koen_> ten chapters and one calculator implemented, still no sign of monads
13:47:40 <Koen_> and it's still not clear how you can manage I/O without side effects
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14:02:57 <FireFly> Have you tried Learn You a Haskell?
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14:09:25 <Phantom__Hoover> Koen_, also note the standard caveats that monads aren't that huge of a deal, that there are plenty of monads that aren't IO and have nothing to do with 'side effects', that IO would be perfectly doable without monads
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14:25:21 <Koen_> FireFly: well I almost won that book in a quizz at a scala symposium three days ago, but the girl I was with insisted we played for free, so we didn't get the book :(
14:26:08 <FireFly> Well there's a free online version too :p
14:26:10 <Koen_> Phantom__Hoover: I'm just trying to grasp the whole "we're purely functional but side-effects are not a problem" thingy
14:26:17 * FireFly should get the printed version though
14:34:14 <Koen_> this tutorial is also kinda weird because it keeps insisting on the "differences" between object-oriented, imperative, and functional, whereas I always think in terms of similarities (patterns), not differences
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14:41:34 <Koen_> also I hate that haskell uses indentation as part of the semantics
14:45:00 <FireFly> I think it doesn't, but rather have it be sugar for { ... ; ... ; ... }
14:45:09 <FireFly> But I may be wrong; I'm not really a Haskeller
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14:52:26 -!- oerjan has set topic: The how-to guide to changing the topic with environmentally friendly hypoallergenic lenses | PDF yourself: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ or http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
15:01:28 <oerjan> <Koen_> also I hate that haskell uses indentation as part of the semantics <-- that's syntax not semantics.
15:01:43 <Koen_> yes my apology
15:02:09 <oerjan> also you can go sit there together with zzo38 and refuse to use it :P
15:05:07 <Koen_> refuse to use haskell? or indentation?
15:14:41 <FireFly> or the word 'it'?
15:18:07 <Phantom__Hoover> Koen_, as for the side effects thing, aiui the way it works is that the IO monad represents ad-hoc imperative programs which handle all the stateful stuff
15:19:25 <Koen_> well as far as I understand "it's okay to have side-effects in the main function, but the other functions are pure"
15:19:59 <Koen_> so i'm guessing the IO monad is just a convenient way to pass the information to main
15:20:54 <Phantom__Hoover> no, this is wrong
15:21:04 <Phantom__Hoover> main isn't even a function; its type is IO ()
15:22:09 <Phantom__Hoover> i.e. it's (a representation of) an imperative program which at some point will produce a value of type (), and possibly do other things besides
15:26:07 <oerjan> Koen_: as FireFly mentioned, all indentation sensitivity in haskell is sugar for explicit { ; } blocks.
15:26:16 <Phantom__Hoover> similarly getChar :: IO Char produces a value of type Char, and in the process consumes a character from stdin
15:28:13 <Koen_> oerjan: yes, but I'm not sure how I could choose not to use it
15:28:48 <oerjan> Koen_: well you could use { ; } instead when writing programs. of course it won't help with reading other people's programs.
15:29:02 <Koen_> Phantom__Hoover: well we did use getChar but I really couldn't see how that was any different from getchar in any other language
15:29:38 <Koen_> oerjan: so for instance I could write "let { x = 4; y = 5 } in x + y"?
15:29:45 <oerjan> yes.
15:30:02 <Koen_> okay
15:30:48 <Phantom__Hoover> Koen_, because in other languages the type of getchar is just char, and it's treated as a function with no arguments
15:30:52 <Koen_> but does that mean if I write "do" and then a newline and then "{", the newline will be syntactic sugar for an outter block?
15:31:25 <Slereah> Hm
15:31:34 <oerjan> Koen_: no. the { being the first token after the do is precisely what turns off the usual indentation sensitivity.
15:31:35 <Slereah> I think I'll have to drop the Unlambda ` for limp.
15:31:44 <Slereah> It works best for mono-letter functions
15:31:57 <Phantom__Hoover> getChar is neither a function nor a character, it's a representation of an imperative program
15:32:12 <Koen_> I don't know what that means
15:33:37 <Phantom__Hoover> well imagine it as an actual program in some imperative language
15:33:51 <oerjan> Koen_: in haskell, getChar has an IO type, which tells that it can do side effects. things that are not marked with such a type cannot call things that are.
15:34:04 <Koen_> oh
15:34:11 <Phantom__Hoover> oerjan, aaaargh i was trying to avoid that explanation
15:34:24 <oerjan> Phantom__Hoover: SOOOOOO SOOOOOORRRYYY
15:34:26 <Koen_> that's kinda disappointing but at least I understand
15:34:43 <oerjan> Phantom__Hoover: it seemed to help?
15:35:11 <Phantom__Hoover> no, because he now has the standard misconception that IO is a language-level hack that marks some functions as 'contaminated' with 'statefulness'
15:35:31 <Koen_> yes I do
15:35:54 <Koen_> kinda like in C some functions on strings give the "constant" type to their argument
15:35:58 <Koen_> and others don't
15:36:22 <Phantom__Hoover> it isn't; IO is in principle an ordinary algebraic data type, albeit one which is hidden for implementation reasons
15:37:18 <oerjan> Koen_: Phantom__Hoover does have a point that IO values are _not_ functions, they are used differently.
15:37:20 <Koen_> then I guess I'll understand once I've read more about monads; and in the mean time I'll use oerjan's explanation
15:37:34 <Phantom__Hoover> monads won't help you understand IO!!!
15:37:43 <Koen_> oh
15:38:25 <Phantom__Hoover> monads are just a structure over a type (which can be something as everyday as lists, or Maybe if you've encountered that) and a couple of functions operating on those structures in certain ways
15:38:55 <oerjan> i am not convinced Phantom__Hoover's way of explaining this is actually better.
15:39:07 <Phantom__Hoover> it's not is it
15:39:30 <Phantom__Hoover> i thought haskellwiki had a good explanation of IO but all it has is the State RealWorld malarkey
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15:40:32 <Koen_> I was told Maybe is just option
15:40:52 <Phantom__Hoover> yeah
15:41:54 <oerjan> Koen_: one important point to be aware of is that evaluating an IO action is not the same as running it, and only the latter performs any actual IO.
15:42:07 <Koen_> okay
15:43:07 <Koen_> but getChar cannot be evaluated without being run, right?
15:43:31 <Phantom__Hoover> no
15:43:37 <Phantom__Hoover> er
15:43:39 <Phantom__Hoover> wait, yes!
15:43:40 <oerjan> it _can_, although because of haskell's default laziness it is unlikely to happen by accident.
15:43:53 <oerjan> > getChar `seq` "hello"
15:43:55 <lambdabot> "hello"
15:44:03 <Phantom__Hoover> it's just that there's not an awful lot you can do with an IO value except run it
15:44:16 <oerjan> that technically evaluated getChar, although in a useless way.
15:45:54 <oerjan> perhaps more accurately is to say that there is no way to _use_ an IO value without running it.
15:46:21 <Phantom__Hoover> you could also, in theory, have a function of type IO () -> Int that evaluated something stupid about the IO action itself
15:46:26 <Phantom__Hoover> like how long it is or something
15:47:12 <oerjan> i don't think haskell has any non-IO means of analyzing IO actions.
15:47:40 <oerjan> and i don't recall much of IO means either, although who knows what exists out there.
15:48:29 <Phantom__Hoover> yeah, it doesn't actually have any such function because, as i said, it's stupid
15:48:37 <oerjan> that Storable / StablePointer stuff from the ffi could probably do something.
15:49:03 <Phantom__Hoover> but, in theory, you could have such a function, and it would be as pure as any other
15:49:33 <oerjan> right if IO was implemented as an ADT as you suggested.
15:52:43 <fizzie> "sig: -nan inf inf inf -inf -inf -inf inf -inf inf -inf inf -inf inf inf inf"
15:52:47 <fizzie> (Best signal?)
15:53:36 <oerjan> nani
15:55:59 * FireFly wonders if that output is from Lua
15:56:10 <fizzie> It's not.
15:56:33 <FireFly> I guess 'nan' and 'inf' (with that case) is more common than where I've seen it used, then
15:56:51 <fizzie> It's from glibc.
15:57:01 <FireFly> Oh, I see
16:01:24 <oerjan> > (replicate 16 (0/0),"BATMAN!")
16:01:26 <lambdabot> ([NaN,NaN,NaN,NaN,NaN,NaN,NaN,NaN,NaN,NaN,NaN,NaN,NaN,NaN,NaN,NaN],"BATMAN!")
16:02:42 <fizzie> >>> [float('inf'), -float('inf'), float('inf')-float('inf')]
16:02:42 <fizzie> [inf, -inf, nan]
16:02:45 <fizzie> Python also.
16:03:59 <oerjan> > (1/0*)<*>[1,-1,0]
16:04:01 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `[a0 -> b0]'
16:04:01 <lambdabot> with actual type `a1...
16:04:05 <oerjan> oops
16:04:11 <oerjan> > (1/0*)<$>[1,-1,0]
16:04:12 <lambdabot> [Infinity,-Infinity,NaN]
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16:07:02 <Slereah> I am wondering
16:07:20 <Slereah> Does the lazy vs eager evaluation have a parallel with queue vs stack?
16:07:45 <Slereah> Like you can implement it via piling or queueing instructions
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16:16:30 <oerjan> i think queuing instructions doesn't correspond to any of those evaluation strategies.
16:16:59 <Slereah> Okay
16:18:34 <Koen_> stacks are cool for scopes
16:18:56 <Koen_> queues are not cool, but more likely to give you turing-completeness :)
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16:22:06 <Slereah> Well I don't really worry about turing completeness
16:22:15 <Slereah> I'm trying to mash together 5 Turing complete languages
16:22:20 <Slereah> It should be fine
16:22:51 <Koen_> we want names
16:23:03 <nys> you know what would be good
16:23:04 <Slereah> Same old thang : http://esolangs.org/wiki/Limp
16:23:20 <nys> combining 5 turing complete languages in such a way that it's no longer turing complete
16:23:38 <Slereah> nys : That would be quite a fuck up
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16:24:15 <nys> i mean it would be a challenge in and of itself
16:24:40 <Slereah> Would it be possible?
16:24:42 <nys> fake-completeness paradigm
16:24:47 <nys> i dunno
16:25:06 <Slereah> I mean, you could take those 5 languages, and restrict the language to just one of those for a particular program
16:25:11 <Slereah> And bam, it would be TC
16:25:26 <Slereah> For that to work, you'd have to add restrictions on those languages as well
16:25:33 <nys> well it depends on how they're combined
16:26:03 <nys> what combining means
16:26:12 <Slereah> I guess!
16:26:25 <Slereah> But I can't think off the cuff on how that would work
16:28:21 <Koen_> what if a program in your language consists in a pipeline of five programs, each in one of the five turing-complete languages
16:28:47 <Koen_> but the pipeline is such that it is no longer possible to do anything you want
16:28:58 <Koen_> because, err, maybe encoding of input and output is fucked up
16:29:25 <nys> i like the idea of it looking like it should work but not actually working
16:29:48 <Slereah> Hm
16:29:54 <Slereah> I wonder if you could try mixing it up
16:29:57 <Slereah> Like say
16:30:06 <Slereah> Take recursive functions and Lisp
16:30:17 <Slereah> And switch the operators
16:30:35 <Slereah> Like suddenly cons car cdr are applied (in some way) to numbers, and succ to lists
16:30:58 <Slereah> In such a way that it makes sense, but isn't TC anymore
16:31:12 <Slereah> Like Succ(list) = (list,Nil) and such
16:31:23 <Koen_> 'succ' feels like cons except you forgot to tell it what element to add to the list
16:33:03 <Koen_> well I'm off to watch Gravity maybe it'll give me ideas :)
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16:38:36 <fizzie> Plugged an old Wacom tablet in the same hub where a memory card reader was: http://sprunge.us/HWNi
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17:03:47 <Slereah> Dang coding is hard to get back to
17:03:53 <Slereah> Didn't code in C in 4 years
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18:49:15 <doesthiswork> Douglas Hofstadter is so very infuriating when I try and get something solid out of reading his books.
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18:50:40 <elliott> that's because there is very little solid in them
18:51:24 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Chris%20Pressey#Esoteric_Reading_List.21
18:51:53 <doesthiswork> I know. I hoped and hoped wrong.
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18:53:01 <Koen_> hi
18:53:17 <Koen_> for the record Gravity has the Koen seal of approval
18:53:53 <mnoqy> where would we be without gravity, after all
18:54:47 <Koen_> well Sandra Bullock could answer that
18:56:17 <doesthiswork> I saw the title "fluid concepts and creative analogies" and thought that there would be some useful techniques I could use for when I wanted to figure out if two things were similar. But the programs in the book are not good at what they do, or illuminating in how they do it.
19:00:12 <doesthiswork> it was useful in that he blasted some competitors and so I was able to find the competitor's useful work
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19:07:35 <kmc> doesthiswork: haha
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19:08:17 <kmc> elliott: I mostly agree, although I still think the beginning of GEB is a solid introduction to metamathematics
19:08:57 <doesthiswork> His book about translating a french poem is also enjoyable because there are no computers involved
19:09:30 <kmc> things that don't involve computers are often enjoyable
19:09:51 <myname> kmc: i disagree!
19:10:32 <elliott> kmc: GEB was like 10% expanding the way I think, 40% enjoying the dialogues, 50% being bored of the hundred-page step-by-step formal logic derivations and sceptical of the "brain = Godel!!!!1111" crap
19:10:38 <elliott> it's... a mess
19:11:02 <kmc> yep
19:11:05 <kmc> a hot mess
19:11:44 <elliott> I think it's worth reading iff you have a lot of free time and aren't going to buy into his theory of consciousness
19:12:31 <doesthiswork> as a 12 year old kid I loved it.
19:13:04 <doesthiswork> although I had a tendency to only read the dialogues.
19:13:23 <mnoqy> being 12 also helps
19:13:39 <elliott> I was 11 or something I think
19:13:53 <mnoqy> i think i was 12 when i read it
19:14:01 <mnoqy> maybe 11 tho
19:14:01 <kmc> 21:03 < kmc> achilles and the tortoise rob a liquor store
19:17:55 <nooodl> i still need to read it
19:21:20 <olsner> fair enough if you want to, but I doubt that you need to
19:22:49 <kmc> ==
19:24:31 <doesthiswork> hth?
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20:17:39 <shachaf> kmc: http://babelstone.blogspot.com/2013/10/whats-new-in-unicode-70.html
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20:20:05 <doesthiswork> about time they added 1F595
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20:53:14 <olsner> `? coconut
20:53:18 <HackEgo> coconut? ¯\(°_o)/¯
20:57:04 <FireFly> `? conut
20:57:05 <HackEgo> conut? ¯\(°_o)/¯
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21:04:13 <doesthiswork> `? nut
21:04:15 <HackEgo> nut? ¯\(°_o)/¯
21:05:12 <doesthiswork> so has anyone made cobrainfuck?
21:05:48 <myname> what should that be
21:06:28 <olsner> would making a cobrainfuck derivative unbrick your brain?
21:06:29 <doesthiswork> I don't know, elliot's the one with the esoteric math knowledge
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21:23:25 <Diren> Selamlar.
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21:25:40 <Selamlar> I HAVE BEEN SUMMONED
21:26:07 <Diren> :D
21:26:35 <Taneb> `welcome Diren
21:26:38 <HackEgo> Diren: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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22:02:40 <Taneb> Tomorrow is probably my favourite Eurovision day
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22:05:26 <Taneb> I wonder if the UK will ever have a decent entry ever again
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22:11:10 <FireFly> You have your Eurovision participant thingy during the autumn?
22:11:33 <Taneb> We do?
22:11:46 <pikhq> Eurovision?
22:11:52 <Taneb> Aye
22:12:56 <Taneb> FireFly, I don't think we do, I'm just thinking about EuroVision
22:13:07 <FireFly> Oh
22:13:56 <Taneb> And it's normally just decided by the BBC
22:14:06 <Taneb> I think a couple of years ago they had a talent contest?
22:14:45 <FireFly> We usually have one each year to decide who is to represent Sweden
22:14:59 <FireFly> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melodifestivalen
22:15:01 <Taneb> I guess it works for you
22:15:44 <fizzie> We have a thing too.
22:15:52 <fizzie> Though I'm not sure it has any sort of proper name.
22:15:56 <olsner> Taneb: o.O you don't get to vote!?
22:16:10 <Taneb> olsner, that is decided by the BBC
22:16:22 <Taneb> Well, we get to vote in the Eurovision final itself
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23:12:47 <oerjan> <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Chris%20Pressey#Esoteric_Reading_List.21 <-- does his inclusion of ANKOS at the end mean the two previous are meant ironically as well?
23:13:20 <oerjan> *previous ones
23:13:55 <Taneb> GEB is worth a read
23:14:04 <oerjan> i think i started on it once.
23:14:28 <oerjan> but hey, i can already quine backwards and forwards, so what can it teach me.
23:16:24 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey was not impressed by GEB, no
23:17:00 <Phantom_Hoover> as i recall he summed it up to me as 750 pages of recursion as a religious experience
23:17:07 <elliott> he didn't unambiguously hate Laws of Form, though. there are degrees of irony!
23:17:49 <Phantom_Hoover> i thought laws of form was the dumbest of the lot
23:18:21 <oerjan> ankos has nice pictures, you cannot deny that.
23:19:29 <Phantom_Hoover> i find some deep satisfaction that the legacy wolfram will leave is as the man who made calculus homework orders of magnitude easier
23:20:37 <oerjan> `addquote <Phantom_Hoover> i find some deep satisfaction that the legacy wolfram will leave is as the man who made calculus homework orders of magnitude easier
23:20:42 <HackEgo> 1123) <Phantom_Hoover> i find some deep satisfaction that the legacy wolfram will leave is as the man who made calculus homework orders of magnitude easier
23:20:59 <Phantom_Hoover> aaaaargh that should've been *in the fact that
23:21:21 <oerjan> i cannot add a non-literal quote, you know.
23:21:32 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: quick, say the whole thing
23:22:16 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: it's ok i've been bitten by it myself.
23:22:23 <oerjan> iirc.
23:22:25 <Phantom_Hoover> i find some deep satisfaction in the fact that the legacy wolfram will leave is as the man who made calculus homework orders of magnitude easier
23:22:41 <oerjan> `addquote <Phantom_Hoover> i find some deep satisfaction in the fact that the legacy wolfram will leave is as the man who made calculus homework orders of magnitude easier
23:22:45 <HackEgo> 1124) <Phantom_Hoover> i find some deep satisfaction in the fact that the legacy wolfram will leave is as the man who made calculus homework orders of magnitude easier
23:23:13 <oerjan> `delquote 1123
23:23:19 <HackEgo> ​*poof* <Phantom_Hoover> i find some deep satisfaction that the legacy wolfram will leave is as the man who made calculus homework orders of magnitude easier
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23:36:12 <oerjan> `run echo 'Ezoterik programlama dili tasarım ve dağıtım için uluslararası merkezi hoş geldiniz! Http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page: Daha fazla bilgi için, bizim wiki göz atın. (Esoterica diğer tür için, irc.dal.net üzerinde # ezoterik deneyin.)' >wisdom/selamlar
23:36:16 <HackEgo> No output.
23:37:41 <oerjan> _maybe_ it shouldn't translate the dal.net irc channel name.
23:38:23 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined.
23:40:09 <mnoqy> maybe
23:40:51 <oerjan> `run sed -i 's/ezoterik/esoteric/' wisdom/selamlar
23:40:55 <HackEgo> No output.
23:41:02 <oerjan> `? selamlar
23:41:05 <HackEgo> Ezoterik programlama dili tasarım ve dağıtım için uluslararası merkezi hoş geldiniz! Http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page: Daha fazla bilgi için, bizim wiki göz atın. (Esoterica diğer tür için, irc.dal.net üzerinde # esoteric deneyin.)
23:41:13 <oerjan> hm..
23:41:28 <oerjan> `run sed -i 's/ esoteric/esoteric/' wisdom/selamlar
23:41:32 <HackEgo> No output.
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