00:26:09 <olsner> I usually find that I need bread to finish the bread spreads, and then I need bread spreads to finish the bread

00:26:38 <oerjan> and some people like me buy new once he's opened the last package. and sometimes before.

00:28:30 <oerjan> actually i used to keep bread in a drawer, but then i got insects in the drawer, and i have used the fridge since.

00:34:42 <olsner> if it looks enough like a sphere I might look up the formula for diameter -> surface area

00:35:53 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_Long_Is_the_Coast_of_Britain%3F_Statistical_Self-Similarity_and_Fractional_Dimension

00:36:35 <Bike> i'm just weirded out since i realized that measuring volume is easy, but then I see something like "lungs have an internal surface area of 70 m²" and just swallow it without thinking.

00:37:30 <Bike> (it looks like they estimate it by measuring the area of (roughly spherical) alveoli and then guessing how many of those there are)

00:39:00 <Bike> Maybe in that specific case you could guess it backwards by seeing how much oxygen they can take in...

00:42:53 <prooftechnique> If there are seagulls on the beach, all of modern mathematics will come crashing down

00:53:28 <oerjan> `run mv wisdom/{"Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download","real fast nora's hair salon 3: shear disaster download"}

00:53:40 <HackEgo> Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download is the most readable functional programming language out there.

00:54:32 <HackEgo> wisdom/` \ wisdom/`? \ wisdom/_̰̆̓_̦̻̖͍̟̖̅ͭͭͬ͡_͉̭ͧ͒̐_̯͙̬̬̦̯͂͋͒ͧ͋̋_̴̝̔̉̅ͨ͞ \ wisdom/? \ wisdom/?? \ wisdom/@ \ wisdom/☃ \ wisdom/⌨ \ wisdom/⊥ \ wisdom/🐐 \ wisdom/̸̸̼͚͇̮͕̳̞̤̜̯̪̪̱̣̠̺̹͍̩̝͚͕͓͚̙͓̪̮̟̜̣͙̪̂ͭ̎̏̔ͦ͒ͪ͌̾ͦͨ̚̚͢͢͠ͅ҉̴̢_̿̊ͣ̉ͣͪ͒̓̐͊̏̚̚

01:03:46 <oerjan> `run echo "Something Bike is into. Not to be confused with suburban destruction." >wisdom/"structsubural type"

01:09:46 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, {also ais523\unfoog and oerjan in case he's not listening}, i suggest doing the admin work on the esolangs wiki with an account in the bot group

01:13:43 <quintopia> oerjan: i left to unpack my pack. i didn't go with anything. did you have a better idea?

01:16:02 <ais523\unfoog> oerjan: there's a user rights setting interface that only bureaucrats can use

01:17:08 <oerjan> ais523\unfoog: hm i thought i was supposed to have access to do bot edits or do i remember wrong

01:18:03 <ais523\unfoog> then the rollback button makes both your edits, and the edits you roll back, get flagged as bot

01:19:12 <ais523\unfoog> in Wikipedia, deletions are major enough that hiding them from the log would be a bad idea

01:20:53 <Phantom_Hoover> wasn't there an incident when a wikipedia admin deleted some major discussion page and fucked the database

01:22:16 <ais523\unfoog> Phantom_Hoover: they're basically feature-identical but use different syntax for everything

01:43:49 <Phantom__Hoover> i remember when a guy wasted like ten minutes of an analysis lecture by asking if a function had to be strictly increasing, despite the fact that it had already been taken to be injective

01:49:32 <Koen_> today someone asked me to prove that if a sub-algebra of the set of continuous functions from [0, 1] to R had finite dimension, then it was the set of constant functions

01:50:16 <Koen_> (algebra with addition (f+g)(x) = f(x) + g(x) and multiplication (f*g)(x) = f(x)g(x))

01:54:58 <oerjan> Koen_: that reminds me of an important theorem which i cannot remember the name for

02:03:54 <Bike> the one where you can approximate (continuous? i forget) functions with polynomials.

02:04:00 <oerjan> i finally found it when i got the idea to google the ingredients of the theorem instead of finding the right wikipedia subject/mathematician

02:07:31 <Koen_> it's not supposed to be too hard, he apparently expected me to give an answer within ten minutes

02:09:45 <oerjan> Koen_: what i'm thinking of is that a closed subalgebra with unit of C(X) is isomorphic to C(X/function dividing out the points which the algebra doesn't distinguish)

02:10:31 <oerjan> since it's finite dimensional, the X/... must be finite, but X is connected so it must be a single point QED

02:11:26 <oerjan> it's the continuous functions from X to R, where X is a compact hausdorff space (e.g. [0,1])

02:14:00 <Koen_> oerjan: and "connected" is that property of a set that basically says "if two points 'touch' eachother then they're equal?"

02:14:32 <oerjan> Koen_: no. it's the property that says the space is not the union of two disjoint open sets.

02:16:18 <elliott> kmc: you should read http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.45.2247&rep=rep1&type=pdf, it's exciting!

02:16:31 <elliott> then maybe also https://www.fpcomplete.com/user/edwardk/conquering-folds (where I found it from)

02:17:04 <Koen_> I'm still not sure what the X/ means - is that some sort of set quotient? as in dividing by the Ker of the function or something

02:17:47 <Koen_> oerjan: no, I was refering to a weird thing that almost any set I can imagine verifies but witch some weiiiiiird sets do not

02:18:16 <oerjan> Koen_: actually it's just the range of the function, it's just that you can think of a function's range as the quotient of the domain by the equivalence relation of being mapped to the same point.

02:19:22 <oerjan> if the domain is compact hausdorff and the range is hausdorff, then that also transfers the topology.

02:20:06 <oerjan> (i maybe should have mentioned that all the spaces involved here are compact hausdorff)

02:20:15 <Koen_> I also remember I used to know what hausdorff meant. and the more we talk about this the more I think I never should have stopped studying math

02:25:20 <oerjan> kmc: [a] is the free monoid over a, and Sum . length is the lifting to the monoid category of the morphism Sum . const 1 in the set category.

03:31:58 <oerjan> that was everyone in november + one more because the last one had already been blocked and i needed somewhere to put my SORRY

04:17:20 -!- Koen_ has quit (Quit: The struct held his beloved integer in his strong, protecting arms, his eyes like sapphire orbs staring into her own. "W-will you... Will you union me?").

04:55:29 <oerjan> oops, and i checked a couple others because their names were almost not gibberish too...

04:59:48 <oklopol> "<Koen_> today someone asked me to prove that if a sub-algebra of the set of continuous functions from [0, 1] to R had finite dimension, then it was the set of constant functions" <<< i'd use Vandemonde

05:00:00 <oklopol> If f is one of the functions f(x) != f(y) then [f(x), f(y)] \subset f([0, 1]), so we can choose distinct b_1, ..., b_k \in f([0, 1]) (with preimages f(a_i) = b_i) for any k. The claim now follows because: 1. the vectors (b_1^i, b_2^i ..., b_k^i) for i \in [0,k-1] are linearly independent (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vandermonde_matrix),

05:00:13 <oklopol> 2. the map H(f) = (f(a_1), ..., f(a_k)) is linear from your space of interest to R^k, and 3. H(f^i) = (b_1^i, b_2^i ..., b_k^i).

05:04:10 <oerjan> oklopol: a closed unital subalgebra A of C(X) is naturally isomorphic to C(Y) where Y is X with all the points that are not distinguished by any element of A identified.

05:05:08 <oerjan> the map from X to Y is surjective and continuous, thus Y must be connected since X is.

05:06:04 <oerjan> since C(Y) is finite dimensional Y must have a finite number of points, oh hm this might be slightly circular.

05:06:04 <oklopol> sowhere do you get the "closed", is that automatic from the finite-dimensionality?

05:12:26 <oklopol> i'm supposed to give a talk on how they are the same thing as equilibrium measures

05:13:45 <oklopol> and given a function f, finding the measure m such that h(m)+m(f) is maximized, where m(f) is the integral, and h(m) is the entropy

07:11:12 <shachaf> kmc: is there a way to give someone, say, a sha1 hash and a proof that you have a message that hashes to it

07:22:09 <fizzie> It does sound hard; but then, all zero-knowledge proof things sound kind of freaky.

07:22:46 <kmc> I don't know how to construct a ZKP protocol for an arbitrary problem other than by reduction to an existing ZKP problem but maybe that's enough?

07:22:56 <fizzie> Apparently there's at least a presentation titled "A zero-knowledge proof of possession of a pre-image of a SHA-1 hash" around.

07:25:20 <oerjan> i'd imagine you just encode a circuit checking that an arbitrary input hashes to the given hash as one of the NP-complete problems for which zero-knowledge proofs are known

07:28:45 <oerjan> well the problem instance would be approximately memory * steps used for calculating SHA-1

07:32:05 <oerjan> hm it is not obvious to me that the hamiltonian cycle example really _is_ zero knowledge.

07:33:07 <fizzie> "Peggy will prove that she knows the cycle without simply revealing it (perhaps Victor is interested in buying it but wants verification first --" I wonder how's the market in slightly used Hamiltonian cycles of large graphs.

07:33:10 <shachaf> well i guess you're not claiming it isn't, just saying it's not obvious that it is

07:33:20 <oerjan> because it is not obvious that it is hard to prove that the two graphs are isomorphic

07:34:39 <oerjan> it could be that there are graphs for which hamiltonian cycle is hard to find, yet still easy to show it isomorphic to any of its renamings.

07:43:24 <oerjan> it is only fully revealed if an isomorphism is asked for. otherwise only the edges in the cycle are revealed.

08:00:41 <fizzie> Possibly becuse of apathy, but also perhaps because not all terminal-related things (like picking up on SIGWINCH, or anything involving tcsetattr) are quite doable from pure Java?

16:38:16 <Phantom_Hoover> seen elsewhere: "There are three hats (IIRC) to hacking: White hat, red hat, and black hat."

16:52:59 <boily> fungot: inhale. learn. grok. become even more sentient than you already are, so that your Reign Shall Come!

16:52:59 <fungot> boily: there are lots of optimizations you can make money fast: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ ws/ was/ me

16:53:20 <fungot> boily: make short program segments of an arbitrarily limited size ( say, c function calls.

18:21:16 <fungot> FireFly: i'll be surprised if brookline newton were the ' most jewish' towns in the red river valley, austin, and state indices could be stored

19:27:00 <boily> Vorpal: Romanian, as in that infamous song that was somewhat popular a few years ago. FireFly earwormed me with his “'allo 'allo”.

19:56:41 <HackEgo> [U+021B LATIN SMALL LETTER T WITH COMMA BELOW] [U+0163 LATIN SMALL LETTER T WITH CEDILLA]

19:57:21 <boily> the comma is the correct Romanian character. usually confused with cedilla (Turkic) because the latter is more easily obtaine, typed, drawn, encoded, and stuff.

19:59:51 <fizzie> Are you some kind of a pervert, deliberately choosing a delimiter that makes escaping necessary?

20:22:32 <Bike> http://uk.finance.yahoo.com/echarts?s=THEGQ#symbol=thegq;range=5d;compare=;indicator=volume;charttype=area;crosshair=on;ohlcvalues=0;logscale=off;source=undefined; lol

20:24:06 <fizzie> It used to be TWTRQ, which is significantly closer to TWTR than the current THEGQ.

20:27:04 <kmc> e.g. General Motors which went from being NYSE:GM and part of the DJIA to being GMGMQ on pink sheets

20:27:19 <prooftechnique> I'll bet Aardwolf Party Lanterns gets a good accidental boost, now and again

20:27:41 <kmc> also I find it hilarious that Washington Mutual sold their plum NYSE:WM ticker to Waste Management, Inc

20:28:36 <kmc> Bike: yeah, it's not clear to me why bankrupt stock trades at a non-zero price, because theoretically equity holders are last in line to get anything at bankruptcy court

20:29:05 <kmc> Bike: one explanation I heard from someone very knowledgable is that, this is the case in theory, but in practice if you own a huge chunk of the equity you can show up in court and annoy the jugde enough that they will give you something just to go away

20:29:18 <Taneb> kmc, I was trying to go to a sci-fi and fantasy society social, and I went to the wrong bar

20:31:05 * kmc finds that "fetish" and "kink" are often used to mean BDSM specifically and is pretty annoyed by this fact

20:32:10 <kmc> this reminds me a bit of the first graf on http://www.mit.edu/~mitsfs/related-groups.html

20:32:12 <fizzie> "FINRA believed that trading in the TWTRQ security demonstrated a widespread misunderstanding related to the possible initial public offering of an unrelated security." nice deadpan tone.

20:32:20 <Taneb> kmc, if you're worried that you're doing something he hates, picture him watching the Big Bang Theory and then you'll be even

20:32:43 <Bike> i'm only getting hits from sociological research. which makes a shockking amount of sense.

20:32:52 <Bike> http://www.vancouver.wsu.edu/sites/www.vancouver.wsu.edu/files/insertable_images/nwcg-fiftyshadesofgrey.jpg behold

20:34:26 <Bike> "In the Habit of Being Kinky: Practice and Resistance in a BDSM Community, Texas, USA"

20:41:40 <fizzie> Sometimes it's nontrivial to derive the topic from the name. Like "The Hangovers", which seems to be about climbing.

20:44:52 <fizzie> http://www.loweringthebar.net/2013/11/do-not-clench-your-buttocks-in-deming-new-mexico.html speaking of #drugz

21:40:06 <kmc> "When filled with many single Lego bricks, a washing machine generates random complexes." (PDF) http://www.althofer.de/random-lego-structures.pdf

21:50:43 <fizzie> @tell boily (It's https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20131107-loglog.png with both axes logarithmic, and zeta would be a line there, so okay, not a terribly good fit.)

23:28:37 -!- oerjan has set topic: The channel of the chimæric hellos | Koirammekokaan ei lennä? :( | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ or http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.

23:56:59 <oerjan> `addquote <Taneb> kmc, I was trying to go to a sci-fi and fantasy society social, and I went to the wrong bar <Taneb> Wound up at my university's fetish society <Taneb> Didn't realise for an hour and a half

23:57:05 <HackEgo> 1129) <Taneb> kmc, I was trying to go to a sci-fi and fantasy society social, and I went to the wrong bar <Taneb> Wound up at my university's fetish society <Taneb> Didn't realise for an hour and a half