←2013-11-06 2013-11-07 2013-11-08→ ↑2013 ↑all
00:11:07 -!- ais523 has changed nick to ais523\unfoog.
00:17:48 <Taneb> ...it's possible to easily argue for either way in almost all political issues
00:18:10 <Bike> it's possible to easily argue for either way on any issue.
00:18:11 <Taneb> I don't think I know how to form an unbiased opinion
00:18:28 <Bike> What would an "unbiased opinion" even be
00:19:06 <Taneb> One that weighs fairly all, or a reasonable sample thereof, parameters, I guess
00:20:17 <Bike> what's "fairly"
00:20:22 <Taneb> Who knows
00:20:40 <Taneb> But I've made myself sad
00:21:20 <quintopia> uh
00:21:22 <Taneb> Also I forgot to eat my bread
00:21:26 <quintopia> have you tried
00:21:27 <Taneb> And now it's gone moldy
00:21:31 <quintopia> evidentialism?
00:21:34 <quintopia> i recommend it
00:21:50 <Taneb> Excuse me while I dump an entire loaf in the bin
00:22:06 <Bike> losing an entire load of bread really is a sad situation.
00:22:58 <ais523\unfoog> Taneb: I ended up refusing to eat bread for months because of that
00:23:05 <ais523\unfoog> nowadays I schedule when I will need a loaf
00:23:10 <ais523\unfoog> and by a small one immediately beforehand
00:23:40 * oerjan just keeps it in the fridge and/or freezer, barbaric he is.
00:23:48 <olsner> I keep my bread frozen until I'm ready to breadbinge
00:24:05 <Bike> i can't... did i just read that...
00:24:24 <quintopia> i buy bread that's CHOCK FULL OF PRESERVATIVES
00:24:24 <oerjan> Bike: shocking, isn't it.
00:24:33 <quintopia> it lasts for WEEKS
00:24:36 <Bike> not you, ais
00:25:01 <oerjan> Bike: some people are master schedulers.
00:26:09 <olsner> I usually find that I need bread to finish the bread spreads, and then I need bread spreads to finish the bread
00:26:38 <oerjan> and some people like me buy new once he's opened the last package. and sometimes before.
00:27:02 <oerjan> olsner: so if they ever match up you'll starve to death?
00:27:15 <olsner> I might fall back to eating other things
00:27:39 <olsner> I don't remember finding myself in that situation though
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00:28:25 <prooftechnique> Well, shock and malnourishment will do that to you
00:28:30 <oerjan> actually i used to keep bread in a drawer, but then i got insects in the drawer, and i have used the fridge since.
00:31:36 <quintopia> someone give me a good name for an esolang
00:31:47 <quintopia> specifically for my MWI BF deriv
00:31:54 <oerjan> what's MWI
00:32:09 <prooftechnique> MoWglI
00:34:00 <Bike> Given a physical object, how would you measure its surface area?
00:34:34 <Taneb> Also I realised my milk was past its due date
00:34:34 <oerjan> Bike: it depends on resolution, fractals you know
00:34:42 <olsner> if it looks enough like a sphere I might look up the formula for diameter -> surface area
00:34:57 <Taneb> ais523\unfoog, the problem is I can EASILY eat the bread fast enough, I just don't
00:35:09 <Bike> physical object, oerjan.
00:35:23 <oerjan> Bike: physical objects are surprisingly fractal.
00:35:53 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_Long_Is_the_Coast_of_Britain%3F_Statistical_Self-Similarity_and_Fractional_Dimension
00:36:19 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coastline_paradox
00:36:35 <Bike> i'm just weirded out since i realized that measuring volume is easy, but then I see something like "lungs have an internal surface area of 70 m²" and just swallow it without thinking.
00:36:44 <oerjan> quintopia: i'm assuming you went with MoWglI.
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00:37:30 <Bike> (it looks like they estimate it by measuring the area of (roughly spherical) alveoli and then guessing how many of those there are)
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00:38:34 <oerjan> and i'm sure if you look closely those alveoli aren't smooth either.
00:38:42 <Bike> mmhm
00:38:49 <oerjan> and once you get down to atoms, does area even make sense.
00:39:00 <Bike> Maybe in that specific case you could guess it backwards by seeing how much oxygen they can take in...
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00:39:26 <Bike> Except how do you measure how much one unit surface area can do.
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00:40:09 <oerjan> so basically it's assumptions all the way down.
00:40:23 <oerjan> until you hit the turtles, at least.
00:40:42 <prooftechnique> But how big are the turtles?
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00:42:19 <oerjan> prooftechnique: i think heisenberg uncertainty may be involved.
00:42:53 <prooftechnique> If there are seagulls on the beach, all of modern mathematics will come crashing down
00:42:56 * prooftechnique weeps
00:43:25 <oerjan> O KAY
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00:47:10 <oerjan> `? c
00:47:12 <HackEgo> C is the language of��V�>WIד�.��Segmentation fault
00:52:16 <kmc> twitter IPO tomorrow
00:52:39 <oerjan> `run ls wisdom/*eal*
00:52:41 <HackEgo> wisdom/Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download
00:52:56 -!- nisstyre has joined.
00:53:28 <oerjan> `run mv wisdom/{"Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download","real fast nora's hair salon 3: shear disaster download"}
00:53:31 <HackEgo> No output.
00:53:38 <oerjan> `? Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download
00:53:40 <HackEgo> Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download is the most readable functional programming language out there.
00:53:50 <oerjan> Taneb: sheesh.
00:54:13 <Taneb> All hail
00:54:29 <oerjan> `run ls -1 wisdom/* | grep '[A-Z]'
00:54:32 <HackEgo> wisdom/` \ wisdom/`? \ wisdom/_̰̆̓_̦̻̖͍̟̖̅ͭͭͬ͡_͉̭ͧ͒̐_̯͙̬̬̦̯͂͋͒ͧ͋̋_̴̝̔̉̅ͨ͞ \ wisdom/? \ wisdom/?? \ wisdom/@ \ wisdom/☃ \ wisdom/⌨ \ wisdom/⊥ \ wisdom/🐐 \ wisdom/̸̸̼͚͇̮͕̳̞̤̜̯̪̪̱̣̠̺̹͍̩̝͚͕͓͚̙͓̪̮̟̜̣͙̪̂ͭ̎̏̔ͦ͒ͪ͌̾ͦͨ̚̚͢͢͠ͅ҉̴̢_̿̊ͣ̉ͣͪ͒̓̐͊̏̚̚
00:54:49 <oerjan> oh right that mess
00:55:00 <oerjan> `run ls -1 wisdom/* | grep '[[:UPPER:]]'
00:55:02 <HackEgo> grep: Invalid character class name
00:55:20 <oerjan> `run ls -1 wisdom/* | grep '[[:upper:]]'
00:55:22 <HackEgo> wisdom/Ø \ wisdom/wisisis "This isn't an actual wisdom, just a tribute."
00:55:23 <oerjan> so logical
00:55:40 <oerjan> `? Ø
00:55:43 <HackEgo> ​ø is not going anywhere.
00:55:52 <oerjan> `cat wisdom/Ø
00:55:54 <HackEgo> ​Ø escaped due to a sensitive case bug
00:56:04 <oerjan> ...i guess that stays.
00:56:53 <oerjan> `run cat wisdom/wisi*
00:56:55 <HackEgo> No output.
00:58:50 <oerjan> `? substructural typing
00:58:53 <HackEgo> Not to be confused with structural subtyping.
00:59:03 <oerjan> `? structural subtyping
00:59:05 <HackEgo> Not to be confused with substructural typing.
00:59:08 <oerjan> yep.
00:59:24 <kmc> haha
00:59:27 <kmc> true wisdom
01:03:46 <oerjan> `run echo "Something Bike is into. Not to be confused with suburban destruction." >wisdom/"structsubural type"
01:03:50 <HackEgo> No output.
01:09:46 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, {also ais523\unfoog and oerjan in case he's not listening}, i suggest doing the admin work on the esolangs wiki with an account in the bot group
01:10:06 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, how is the fortress going
01:10:09 <Phantom_Hoover> because these ongoing spam wars are making recent changes useless
01:10:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, aaaargh
01:10:11 <ais523\unfoog> Phantom_Hoover: I'm not sure that works for blocks and deletions
01:10:18 <ais523\unfoog> we can remove /edits/ from recent changes even without a bot-group account
01:10:19 <Phantom_Hoover> definitely does
01:10:48 <Phantom_Hoover> wouldn't get rid of the spammers' user creation logs, unfortunately
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01:13:43 <quintopia> oerjan: i left to unpack my pack. i didn't go with anything. did you have a better idea?
01:14:21 <oerjan> how can i have a better idea when i don't know what mwi means.
01:14:35 <Bike> most westerly incinerator
01:15:45 <oerjan> ais523\unfoog: hm. ok remind me how we got the bot flag set again.
01:16:02 <ais523\unfoog> oerjan: there's a user rights setting interface that only bureaucrats can use
01:16:04 <quintopia> oerjan: hugh everett's quantum mechanics interpretation
01:16:23 <Phantom_Hoover> i'm guessing elliott's the only bureaucrat
01:16:35 <ais523\unfoog> I'm one too, I think
01:16:36 <elliott> ais523\unfoog is too
01:16:42 <quintopia> oerjan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Many-worlds_interpretation
01:16:49 <Bike> what is the point of the initialism
01:17:08 <oerjan> ais523\unfoog: hm i thought i was supposed to have access to do bot edits or do i remember wrong
01:17:22 <oerjan> quintopia: EverFuck
01:17:28 <Phantom_Hoover> well bot is just a user group
01:17:28 <ais523\unfoog> oerjan: that's different
01:17:45 <quintopia> i think "elliott's the only bureaucrat" is a wonderful name for an esolang
01:17:48 <ais523\unfoog> you put ?bot=1 or &bot=1 as appropriate at the end of a contributions URL
01:17:49 <Phantom_Hoover> that keeps your actions from showing up on recent changes
01:18:03 <Bike> Can I do "foo[1:7] = bar[1:7]" to assign seven bits of bus?
01:18:03 <ais523\unfoog> then the rollback button makes both your edits, and the edits you roll back, get flagged as bot
01:18:32 <Bike> in verilog i guess i should mention.
01:18:41 <oerjan> ais523\unfoog: ok and that won't work with page deletions and/or blocks?
01:18:52 <ais523\unfoog> oerjan: no, it only works with rollbacks
01:19:00 <oerjan> ok
01:19:09 <Bike> my life would be much happier if builds didn't take five minutes, i feel
01:19:12 <ais523\unfoog> in Wikipedia, deletions are major enough that hiding them from the log would be a bad idea
01:19:16 <ais523\unfoog> and MediaWiki assumes that everyone is Wikipedia
01:19:22 <oerjan> i suppose.
01:19:41 <oerjan> and in wikipedia new users can't create pages iirc
01:20:17 <oerjan> which would be untenable on our wiki
01:20:32 <Phantom_Hoover> hm
01:20:53 <Phantom_Hoover> wasn't there an incident when a wikipedia admin deleted some major discussion page and fucked the database
01:21:16 <Bike> ais523\unfoog: can you help me out here
01:21:40 <ais523\unfoog> Bike: in Verilog? I think that's possible
01:21:43 <ais523\unfoog> but I'm better at VHDL
01:21:48 <Bike> oh right, you don't know verilog.
01:21:51 <Bike> well, fuck everything.
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01:21:58 <Phantom_Hoover> verilog and vhdl are actually different, right
01:22:01 <ais523\unfoog> Phantom_Hoover: it was the old version WP:AFD, I think
01:22:02 <kmc> Bike: a fresh build of the thing i work on takes 25 minutes
01:22:06 <ais523\unfoog> where everything was done on one page
01:22:08 <kmc> and that's on the fastest computer I have access to
01:22:16 <ais523\unfoog> Phantom_Hoover: they're basically feature-identical but use different syntax for everything
01:22:19 <Bike> kmc: real job though.
01:22:25 <kmc> something like that.
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01:25:02 <Bike> this is just homework i've been slacking on. makes flashy lights
01:36:15 <quintopia> oerjan: how about "Quantum Fuckicide"? :D
01:36:56 <quintopia> "This Language Does Not Exist In Your Universe"
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01:40:54 <Phantom__Hoover> Heh, there's no monotonic surjection from [0,1) to [0,1]
01:41:00 <Phantom__Hoover> i find this inordinately amusing
01:41:32 <oerjan> strictly monotonic, surely?
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01:42:10 <Phantom__Hoover> maybe
01:42:17 <oerjan> otherwise f x | x <= 1/2 = 2*x | otherwise = 1 would work.
01:42:33 <Phantom__Hoover> yeah
01:43:49 <Phantom__Hoover> i remember when a guy wasted like ten minutes of an analysis lecture by asking if a function had to be strictly increasing, despite the fact that it had already been taken to be injective
01:47:26 <oerjan> now prove there is no continuous bijection from [0,1)^n to [0,1]^n >:)
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01:48:19 <oerjan> hm wait is there
01:49:32 <Koen_> today someone asked me to prove that if a sub-algebra of the set of continuous functions from [0, 1] to R had finite dimension, then it was the set of constant functions
01:50:16 <Koen_> (algebra with addition (f+g)(x) = f(x) + g(x) and multiplication (f*g)(x) = f(x)g(x))
01:52:43 <Bike> i tried to stop a build and the entire ide crashed. i hate this program so much.
01:52:54 <kmc> haha sux
01:53:12 <kmc> i just removed about 10 makefiles
01:53:18 <kmc> let's see if it still builds
01:54:58 <oerjan> Koen_: that reminds me of an important theorem which i cannot remember the name for
02:02:15 <oerjan> ah the Stone-Weierstrass theorem
02:02:34 <Bike> yeah i'd say that's just a tad important
02:03:21 <Koen_> the name clearly rings a bell but IT'S BEEN A LONG TIME soooooo
02:03:54 <Bike> the one where you can approximate (continuous? i forget) functions with polynomials.
02:04:00 <oerjan> i finally found it when i got the idea to google the ingredients of the theorem instead of finding the right wikipedia subject/mathematician
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02:06:55 <oerjan> hm that's not the most obvious too powerful theorem to use for Koen_'s proof
02:07:31 <Koen_> it's not supposed to be too hard, he apparently expected me to give an answer within ten minutes
02:08:02 <kmc> woah dude 'length' is a monoid homomorphism isn't it
02:08:11 <quintopia> what is the polynomial that approximates the weierstrass function
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02:09:45 <oerjan> Koen_: what i'm thinking of is that a closed subalgebra with unit of C(X) is isomorphic to C(X/function dividing out the points which the algebra doesn't distinguish)
02:10:31 <oerjan> since it's finite dimensional, the X/... must be finite, but X is connected so it must be a single point QED
02:10:58 <Koen_> is C(X) the set of fractional functions? or whatever you call polynom/polynom
02:11:26 <oerjan> it's the continuous functions from X to R, where X is a compact hausdorff space (e.g. [0,1])
02:11:40 <elliott> kmc: (sum . map (const 1)) should make that obvious :)
02:12:05 <oerjan> i.e. the algebra you're inside.
02:12:14 <elliott> or more explicitly, foldMap (\_ -> Sum 1)
02:12:39 <kmc> elliott: yeah
02:13:28 <kmc> 'sum' is also a monoid homomorphism
02:13:31 <kmc> hooray
02:13:43 <Bike> more like monoid gaymorphism
02:13:55 <Bike> i don't know why i said that. it was dumb. sorry.
02:14:00 <Koen_> oerjan: and "connected" is that property of a set that basically says "if two points 'touch' eachother then they're equal?"
02:14:07 <elliott> kmc: sum is and map (const 1) is
02:14:24 <elliott> and homomorphisms of a monoid form a category
02:14:32 <oerjan> Koen_: no. it's the property that says the space is not the union of two disjoint open sets.
02:14:40 <elliott> kmc: (of course, map f is for any f)
02:14:53 <kmc> right
02:15:06 <oerjan> it's preserved by continuous surjective functions.
02:15:34 <Koen_> alright
02:16:18 <elliott> kmc: you should read http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=, it's exciting!
02:16:31 <elliott> then maybe also https://www.fpcomplete.com/user/edwardk/conquering-folds (where I found it from)
02:16:38 <Bike> is that a direct link to a pdf!
02:17:00 <oerjan> Koen_: what you said could be called "being in the same connected component"
02:17:04 <Koen_> I'm still not sure what the X/ means - is that some sort of set quotient? as in dividing by the Ker of the function or something
02:17:47 <Koen_> oerjan: no, I was refering to a weird thing that almost any set I can imagine verifies but witch some weiiiiiird sets do not
02:17:58 <elliott> Bike: blame edwardk
02:18:05 <Koen_> in french we call it either "séparé" or "séparable", I never remember which
02:18:10 <Koen_> s/witch/which
02:18:16 <oerjan> Koen_: actually it's just the range of the function, it's just that you can think of a function's range as the quotient of the domain by the equivalence relation of being mapped to the same point.
02:18:32 <Koen_> nice
02:19:22 <oerjan> if the domain is compact hausdorff and the range is hausdorff, then that also transfers the topology.
02:20:06 <oerjan> (i maybe should have mentioned that all the spaces involved here are compact hausdorff)
02:20:15 <Koen_> I also remember I used to know what hausdorff meant. and the more we talk about this the more I think I never should have stopped studying math
02:20:44 <Bike> math sucks. go into geophysics.
02:25:20 <oerjan> kmc: [a] is the free monoid over a, and Sum . length is the lifting to the monoid category of the morphism Sum . const 1 in the set category.
02:28:31 <oerjan> by that natural transformation of adjoint functors
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03:26:15 <oerjan> elliott: ais523\unfoog: ok don't kill me :D
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03:27:56 <oerjan> ouch my finger
03:31:01 <ais523\unfoog> oerjan: that's one way to do it, I guess :)
03:31:27 <ais523\unfoog> should keep us safe until they crack the CAPTCHA again
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03:31:58 <oerjan> that was everyone in november + one more because the last one had already been blocked and i needed somewhere to put my SORRY
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04:42:10 <Sgeo> Uh
04:42:24 <Sgeo> I think you blocked an innocent
04:42:24 <Sgeo> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Wingpad
04:42:31 <Sgeo> oerjan: ^
04:49:52 <ais523\unfoog> Sgeo: can you check the others for false positives too?
04:49:58 <ais523\unfoog> I unblocked Wingpad
04:50:16 <Sgeo> I mostly only noticed that one because of the nongibberish name :/
04:51:02 <Sgeo> I'll consider any with no edits a spammer
04:52:50 <Sgeo> Only Wingpad seems to have made changes
04:52:55 <ais523\unfoog> good
04:55:29 <oerjan> oops, and i checked a couple others because their names were almost not gibberish too...
04:56:21 <elliott> perhaps checkuser would come in handy here?
04:56:26 <elliott> I can make oerjan a 'crat
04:56:31 <ais523\unfoog> elliott: I've been checkusering like mad
04:56:36 <ais523\unfoog> look at all the rangeblocks I made
04:56:47 <ais523\unfoog> however there are lots of random IPs that don't fit a pattern, too
04:58:52 <oerjan> i was basically trying to get them all, since the recent flood began.
04:59:48 <oklopol> "<Koen_> today someone asked me to prove that if a sub-algebra of the set of continuous functions from [0, 1] to R had finite dimension, then it was the set of constant functions" <<< i'd use Vandemonde
05:00:00 <oklopol> If f is one of the functions f(x) != f(y) then [f(x), f(y)] \subset f([0, 1]), so we can choose distinct b_1, ..., b_k \in f([0, 1]) (with preimages f(a_i) = b_i) for any k. The claim now follows because: 1. the vectors (b_1^i, b_2^i ..., b_k^i) for i \in [0,k-1] are linearly independent (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vandermonde_matrix),
05:00:07 <Bike> isn't vandemonde a final fantasy villain
05:00:13 <oklopol> 2. the map H(f) = (f(a_1), ..., f(a_k)) is linear from your space of interest to R^k, and 3. H(f^i) = (b_1^i, b_2^i ..., b_k^i).
05:00:55 <oerjan> also a girl genius character (who seems to be relatively good)
05:01:27 <oerjan> hm wait his name is vanamonde
05:01:59 <oklopol> i didn't understand your proof
05:03:31 <Bike> http://stricture-group.com/files/adobe-top100.txt
05:04:10 <oerjan> oklopol: a closed unital subalgebra A of C(X) is naturally isomorphic to C(Y) where Y is X with all the points that are not distinguished by any element of A identified.
05:05:08 <oerjan> the map from X to Y is surjective and continuous, thus Y must be connected since X is.
05:06:04 <oerjan> since C(Y) is finite dimensional Y must have a finite number of points, oh hm this might be slightly circular.
05:06:04 <oklopol> sowhere do you get the "closed", is that automatic from the finite-dimensionality?
05:06:09 <oerjan> yeah
05:06:16 <oklopol> where do you get the "unital"?
05:06:20 <oklopol> oh
05:06:29 <oklopol> does that mean has the constant 1 map?
05:06:29 <oerjan> just add a unit if you don't have one >:)
05:06:32 <oerjan> yes
05:06:38 <oklopol> oh okay.
05:07:12 <oerjan> hm or not circular, it follows from urysohn's lemma.
05:08:12 <oerjan> mind you by that point it may be more complicated than your idea >:)
05:08:25 <oklopol> wait what follows from urysohn's lemma
05:08:46 <oerjan> that an infinite set Y cannot have finite-dimensional C(Y)
05:09:01 <oklopol> oh right.
05:09:03 <oerjan> *c.h. space
05:11:30 <oklopol> do you know what gibbs measures are
05:11:44 <oerjan> not on the spot no :)
05:12:26 <oklopol> i'm supposed to give a talk on how they are the same thing as equilibrium measures
05:12:34 <oklopol> (i haven't checked what the latter are yet)
05:12:41 <oklopol> *tomorrow
05:12:42 <oerjan> which i don't recall either :)
05:12:50 <oklopol> something about pressure
05:13:15 <Sgeo> I'm going to have a "fun" day tomorrow
05:13:25 <Bike> I'm going to have a fun day tomorrow.
05:13:45 <oklopol> and given a function f, finding the measure m such that h(m)+m(f) is maximized, where m(f) is the integral, and h(m) is the entropy
05:13:55 <oerjan> I'm going to have a fun "day" tomorrow.
05:14:09 <oklopol> i'm going to have a" "fun day tomorrow
05:15:45 <oklopol> k gtg
05:16:34 <oerjan> bye
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07:11:12 <shachaf> kmc: is there a way to give someone, say, a sha1 hash and a proof that you have a message that hashes to it
07:11:31 <shachaf> (without revealing the message)
07:16:30 <Fiora> that sounds... gosh, thinking about it, kind of hard
07:21:43 <oerjan> seems like a standard zero-knowledge proof to me?
07:22:09 <fizzie> It does sound hard; but then, all zero-knowledge proof things sound kind of freaky.
07:22:17 <Fiora> yeah
07:22:21 <Fiora> I guess so
07:22:46 <kmc> I don't know how to construct a ZKP protocol for an arbitrary problem other than by reduction to an existing ZKP problem but maybe that's enough?
07:22:56 <fizzie> Apparently there's at least a presentation titled "A zero-knowledge proof of possession of a pre-image of a SHA-1 hash" around.
07:23:13 <kmc> neat
07:23:43 <fizzie> Possibly something based on http://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007%2FBFb0055745
07:24:26 <shachaf> thizzie
07:24:52 <shachaf> i took sha-1 as an arbitrary example of a cryptographic hash
07:25:20 <oerjan> i'd imagine you just encode a circuit checking that an arbitrary input hashes to the given hash as one of the NP-complete problems for which zero-knowledge proofs are known
07:25:37 <oerjan> wikipedia has hamiltonian graph as an example
07:25:44 <oerjan> *cycle
07:26:16 <oerjan> all this needs to work in general, is for calculation of SHA-1 itself to be in P
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07:27:37 <fizzie> It sounds like potentially not terribly efficient.
07:28:45 <oerjan> well the problem instance would be approximately memory * steps used for calculating SHA-1
07:28:54 <oerjan> *instance size
07:32:05 <oerjan> hm it is not obvious to me that the hamiltonian cycle example really _is_ zero knowledge.
07:32:48 <shachaf> why not
07:33:07 <fizzie> "Peggy will prove that she knows the cycle without simply revealing it (perhaps Victor is interested in buying it but wants verification first --" I wonder how's the market in slightly used Hamiltonian cycles of large graphs.
07:33:10 <shachaf> well i guess you're not claiming it isn't, just saying it's not obvious that it is
07:33:20 <oerjan> because it is not obvious that it is hard to prove that the two graphs are isomorphic
07:33:58 <oerjan> given that they are not constructed to make that hard
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07:34:39 <oerjan> it could be that there are graphs for which hamiltonian cycle is hard to find, yet still easy to show it isomorphic to any of its renamings.
07:41:45 <oerjan> oh i see the talk page has a discussion clarifying things.
07:42:43 <oerjan> the isomorphic graph is _not_ revealed initially, just signatures of its edges.
07:43:24 <oerjan> it is only fully revealed if an isomorphism is asked for. otherwise only the edges in the cycle are revealed.
07:44:46 <shachaf> oh. yes.
07:46:05 * oerjan didn't read the description properly, obviously X/
07:47:12 <Lymia> DX
07:47:15 <Lymia> Why isn't there a Java library
07:47:21 <Lymia> That uses terminfo instead of linking to native ncurses
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08:00:41 <fizzie> Possibly becuse of apathy, but also perhaps because not all terminal-related things (like picking up on SIGWINCH, or anything involving tcsetattr) are quite doable from pure Java?
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11:31:03 <fizzie> Your daily ##c: http://sprunge.us/SYJP
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13:49:41 <boily> good untranslatable Finnish morning!
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15:50:55 <AnotherTest> Hello
15:52:09 <boily> AnothellorTest.
16:02:52 <Jafet> Othello test?
16:05:30 <boily> AnotherThellost?
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16:07:28 <boily> Sprhellocklem. KingOfKarlsruhello. asiello.
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16:09:03 <KingOfKarlsruhe> saluton boily
16:10:30 <boily> wow. ĝi estas la unua fojo tio okazis al mi.
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16:37:19 <Phantom_Hoover> hahahaha
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16:38:13 <KingOfKarlsruhe> hahahaha
16:38:16 <Phantom_Hoover> seen elsewhere: "There are three hats (IIRC) to hacking: White hat, red hat, and black hat."
16:39:34 <Bike> just like final fantasy
16:40:01 <AnotherTest> I've heard about brown hats too.
16:40:38 <Slereah> Pink hats
16:41:05 <Bike> red hats can learn Doublehack, which allows them to crack two passwords in one turn
16:43:33 <boily> what's a brown hat?
16:43:58 <Slereah> Poop hacking?
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16:44:50 <boily> prooftechellonique.
16:44:58 <boily> Slereah: bletch.
16:45:06 <AnotherTest> oh and there's greyhat too, almost forgot
16:45:20 <AnotherTest> that's when they mess up the dyeing
16:46:00 <prooftechnique> boihelloly
16:50:19 <fizzie> Bike: Is that related to double compiling?
16:51:24 <kmc_> almost fungot
16:51:25 <fungot> kmc_: right so should i learn them in?
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16:52:59 <boily> fungot: inhale. learn. grok. become even more sentient than you already are, so that your Reign Shall Come!
16:52:59 <fungot> boily: there are lots of optimizations you can make money fast: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ ws/ was/ me
16:53:20 <boily> fungot: oh, scamming people to get rich and Subsidize the Masses!
16:53:20 <fungot> boily: make short program segments of an arbitrarily limited size ( say, c function calls.
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17:06:47 <quintopia> boily: you should try talking with real people
17:07:16 <fizzie> fungot: Did you hear that? He's saying you're not people.
17:07:17 <fungot> fizzie: i don't know your point?
17:07:37 <quintopia> :D
17:07:44 <fizzie> fungot: Okay, yeah, I guess you don't mind.
17:07:44 <fungot> fizzie: you are a pervert!" " fnord
17:07:51 <fizzie> Thanks.
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18:13:47 <boily> back from lunch, and people doubt fungot's existence.
18:13:48 <fungot> boily: do you have problems with this " usual" depends on what you meant
18:14:07 <boily> fizzie: are you a pervert?
18:14:14 <boily> fungot: I don't have problems with you.
18:14:15 <fungot> boily: ( and makes tons of), for instance, if you can
18:21:16 <FireFly> fungot's a fun bot
18:21:16 <fungot> FireFly: i'll be surprised if brookline newton were the ' most jewish' towns in the red river valley, austin, and state indices could be stored
18:21:47 <Bike> er.
18:23:05 <fizzie> boily: Well, now, isn't there a small pervert in every one of us?
18:24:06 <prooftechnique> fizzie: Only on weekends
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18:48:49 <Vorpal> Hi
18:50:40 <boily> Vhellorpal.
18:51:21 <AnotherTest> Vorpallo
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19:11:55 <FireFly> Vorp 'allo 'allo
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19:19:57 <boily> fizzie once again killed lambdabot.
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19:21:00 <boily> Alo, salut, sunt eu, un Vorpal ♪
19:21:25 <fizzie> I requested no such thing.
19:23:18 <Vorpal> boily, French?
19:27:00 <boily> Vorpal: Romanian, as in that infamous song that was somewhat popular a few years ago. FireFly earwormed me with his “'allo 'allo”.
19:27:36 <boily> fizzie: it's only by default, until we find this time's real culprit.
19:28:13 <boily> Vorpal: the French version would have went «Allô, salut, c'est moi, un Vorpal».
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19:34:43 <Vorpal> boily, I see
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19:41:13 <kmc> fungot: Vorbiţi româneşte?
19:41:14 <fungot> kmc: there are scripts to do. one more sem. to get an object in the language
19:50:11 <fizzie> fungot: Well, fire up one of those scripts and have a go at it, then.
19:50:12 <fungot> fizzie: the number of arguments handled? there are multiple wheels? i guess
19:50:19 <fizzie> Can't wait.
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19:53:01 <kmc> ţ, now that's a letter you don't see every day
19:53:05 <kmc> unless you live in romania i guess
19:54:18 <kmc> actually I guess it should be ț and not ţ
19:56:36 <fizzie> `unidecode țţ
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19:57:21 <boily> the comma is the correct Romanian character. usually confused with cedilla (Turkic) because the latter is more easily obtaine, typed, drawn, encoded, and stuff.
19:57:40 <boily> s,e\,,ed\,,
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19:59:51 <fizzie> Are you some kind of a pervert, deliberately choosing a delimiter that makes escaping necessary?
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20:03:22 <boily> fizzie: mwah ah ah.
20:15:50 <kmc> sed fetish
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20:18:55 <Taneb> Did I tell you about my misadventure a couple of weeks ago
20:19:34 <Taneb> Which kmc has just reminded me of
20:20:30 <kmc> oh boy
20:20:33 <kmc> do tell
20:20:55 <prooftechnique> All of my misadventures involve se
20:20:58 <prooftechnique> *sed
20:22:10 <fizzie> ITYM s/$/d/ HTH HAND
20:22:30 <prooftechnique> Yes, clearly
20:22:32 <Bike> http://uk.finance.yahoo.com/echarts?s=THEGQ#symbol=thegq;range=5d;compare=;indicator=volume;charttype=area;crosshair=on;ohlcvalues=0;logscale=off;source=undefined; lol
20:23:39 <prooftechnique> In retrospect, I wish I'd had the foresight to invest in Tweeter
20:23:45 <fizzie> Heh, they've changed the stock symbol for it.
20:23:46 <prooftechnique> That was a temporally difficult sentence
20:24:06 <fizzie> It used to be TWTRQ, which is significantly closer to TWTR than the current THEGQ.
20:24:17 <elliott> didn't that happen with another stock before?
20:24:42 <Bike> "Groogle Bioimplants got a huge boost"
20:26:15 <kmc> haha
20:26:26 <kmc> btw symbol ending in Q indicates that the company is bankrupt
20:26:29 <kmc> if you didn't know
20:26:38 <elliott> why Q?
20:26:47 <fizzie> They've called it quits.
20:26:58 <AnotherTest> GHCQ
20:27:04 <kmc> e.g. General Motors which went from being NYSE:GM and part of the DJIA to being GMGMQ on pink sheets
20:27:19 <prooftechnique> I'll bet Aardwolf Party Lanterns gets a good accidental boost, now and again
20:27:41 <kmc> also I find it hilarious that Washington Mutual sold their plum NYSE:WM ticker to Waste Management, Inc
20:27:46 <Bike> but stock is still traded? (nb i know nothing about finance or business or hi)
20:28:28 <fizzie> Bike: It also went bankrupt all the way back in 2007.
20:28:36 <kmc> Bike: yeah, it's not clear to me why bankrupt stock trades at a non-zero price, because theoretically equity holders are last in line to get anything at bankruptcy court
20:29:05 <kmc> Bike: one explanation I heard from someone very knowledgable is that, this is the case in theory, but in practice if you own a huge chunk of the equity you can show up in court and annoy the jugde enough that they will give you something just to go away
20:29:16 <kmc> but "people are dumb" is another promising answer
20:29:18 <Taneb> kmc, I was trying to go to a sci-fi and fantasy society social, and I went to the wrong bar
20:29:26 <Taneb> Wound up at my university's fetish society
20:29:32 <Taneb> Didn't realise for an hour and a half
20:29:39 <kmc> that is beautiful
20:29:43 <kmc> what kind of fetish(es)
20:29:49 <Taneb> I dunno
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20:30:02 <Taneb> They had just finished a show and tell and were going to the bar afterwards
20:30:05 <kmc> there are a lot
20:30:09 <kmc> aw, did you miss the show and tell?
20:30:12 <Taneb> Yeah
20:30:14 <kmc> :/
20:30:22 <Taneb> I don't think they are too restrictive on which fetishes
20:30:23 <Bike> kmc: this company went down years ago, isn't court already over
20:30:23 <boily> your university has a fetish society??????????????
20:30:25 <prooftechnique> Still would not have clarified, probably
20:30:27 <Taneb> Someone was carrying a violin
20:30:31 <kmc> Bike: beats me
20:30:33 <Taneb> boily, yup
20:30:53 <boily> Taneb: I am disturbed.
20:31:05 * kmc finds that "fetish" and "kink" are often used to mean BDSM specifically and is pretty annoyed by this fact
20:31:16 <Bike> now i'm wondering if my school has a 'fetish society'
20:31:17 <kmc> but also I'm probably doing the thing P_H hates
20:31:22 * Bike googles
20:31:34 <kmc> where I start a conversation about how Some People do something dumb
20:31:41 <Bike> http://public.wsu.edu/~delahoyd/20th/surrealism.html noooooot quite
20:31:51 <kmc> haha
20:32:10 <kmc> this reminds me a bit of the first graf on http://www.mit.edu/~mitsfs/related-groups.html
20:32:12 <fizzie> "FINRA believed that trading in the TWTRQ security demonstrated a widespread misunderstanding related to the possible initial public offering of an unrelated security." nice deadpan tone.
20:32:20 <Taneb> kmc, if you're worried that you're doing something he hates, picture him watching the Big Bang Theory and then you'll be even
20:32:25 <kmc> haha
20:32:29 <kmc> does he do that?
20:32:36 <Taneb> Probably not
20:32:43 <Bike> i'm only getting hits from sociological research. which makes a shockking amount of sense.
20:32:47 <kmc> I've actually seen a good chunk of BBT... but I don't feel good about that fact
20:32:52 <Bike> http://www.vancouver.wsu.edu/sites/www.vancouver.wsu.edu/files/insertable_images/nwcg-fiftyshadesofgrey.jpg behold
20:33:08 <kmc> brb naming my sex toy company "insertable images"
20:33:21 <Bike> oh, shit. fifty shades actually mentions wsu
20:33:27 <prooftechnique> I'm opening an underwear shop called Butt Stuff
20:33:29 <Bike> i'm like, kinky by association now, i bet
20:34:26 <Bike> "In the Habit of Being Kinky: Practice and Resistance in a BDSM Community, Texas, USA"
20:34:30 <kmc> also I don't think NYSE:Q is bankrupt
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20:37:32 <fizzie> I don't think we have a fetish society, though there's quite a lot of them.
20:37:53 <fizzie> Like a drinking game society, apparently.
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20:41:40 <fizzie> Sometimes it's nontrivial to derive the topic from the name. Like "The Hangovers", which seems to be about climbing.
20:42:01 <kmc> lololol
20:42:20 <kmc> that's like http://www.reddit.com/r/MarijuanaEnthusiasts
20:42:56 <shachaf> zomg syntax highlighting in papers
20:43:10 <shachaf> is that new
20:43:29 <Bike> papers on arxiv have links and cites highlighted in different colors a lot
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20:44:10 <shachaf> i mean of code
20:44:23 <Bike> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3621334/#s001title speaking of #drugz
20:44:42 <Bike> the "tropical hurricane" of youth
20:44:52 <fizzie> http://www.loweringthebar.net/2013/11/do-not-clench-your-buttocks-in-deming-new-mexico.html speaking of #drugz
20:45:09 <fizzie> ("Deming" reminds one of bad keming.)
20:45:34 <kmc> shachaf: i've seen papers that use the color modes of lhs2TeX
20:45:48 <boily> ~duck deming
20:45:48 <metasepia> --- No relevant information
20:46:07 * boily kicks ~duck in the lambdas
20:46:16 <Bike> fizzie: fascinating
20:46:20 <shachaf> kmc: i didn't know that existe
20:46:21 <shachaf> d
20:48:48 <kmc> fizzie: that's really fucked up :(
20:49:51 <boily> I knew it. I knew I had that copy over there. http://pastebin.ca/2474654
20:50:54 <Bike> holy sht that's long
20:56:53 <shachaf> kmc: <elly> Chrome just recently grew support for CHACHA20_POLY1305 for SSL
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21:21:52 <boily> http://imgur.com/xsRpp3Z
21:23:11 <Bike> the actual list is good too
21:23:18 <Bike> 'photoshop'
21:28:45 <boily> ~metar CYUL
21:28:45 <metasepia> CYUL 072100Z 26014KT 15SM OVC040 05/M03 A2983 RMK SC8 SLP103
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21:34:47 <kmc> shachaf: nice
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21:40:06 <kmc> "When filled with many single Lego bricks, a washing machine generates random complexes." (PDF) http://www.althofer.de/random-lego-structures.pdf
21:48:17 <fizzie> @tell boily Looks like zeta.
21:48:18 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
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21:50:31 <Bike> kmc: "analog monte carlo procedures" omg
21:50:43 <fizzie> @tell boily (It's https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20131107-loglog.png with both axes logarithmic, and zeta would be a line there, so okay, not a terribly good fit.)
21:50:43 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
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21:56:26 <Bike> Figure 2.2: A Lego enzyme candidate ?!
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23:56:59 <oerjan> `addquote <Taneb> kmc, I was trying to go to a sci-fi and fantasy society social, and I went to the wrong bar <Taneb> Wound up at my university's fetish society <Taneb> Didn't realise for an hour and a half
23:57:05 <HackEgo> 1129) <Taneb> kmc, I was trying to go to a sci-fi and fantasy society social, and I went to the wrong bar <Taneb> Wound up at my university's fetish society <Taneb> Didn't realise for an hour and a half
23:59:43 * oerjan ponders the fact that the formatted logs apparently merge consecutive spaces
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