←2013-11-10 2013-11-11 2013-11-12→ ↑2013 ↑all
00:09:55 -!- tertu has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
00:13:26 -!- tertu has joined.
00:13:26 -!- TodPunk has quit (Quit: This is me, signing off. Probably rebooting or something.).
00:13:55 -!- yorick has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:17:27 -!- nooodl_ has joined.
00:21:13 -!- muskrat has joined.
00:23:02 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:35:17 * oerjan notes int-e as the new person to shout at
00:56:24 -!- ais523 has quit.
00:59:10 -!- tertu has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
01:11:01 -!- Koen_ has joined.
01:12:04 -!- Koen_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
01:20:54 -!- tertu has joined.
01:44:05 <quintopia> anyone here know of a good online collaborative mind-mapping app that lets you make full on graphs (not just trees)?
01:51:51 <zzo38> quintopia: I don't know of any at all, sorry. What are you intending to make?
01:57:50 <oerjan> sorry, those are outlawed to prevent evil ai takeover.
02:12:55 -!- Oj742 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
02:27:17 <quintopia> zzo38: i want to map all of human knowledge down into learnable chunks
02:29:12 <zzo38> quintopia: That would be really difficult, I think.
02:34:06 <quintopia> zzo38: well, i'll have to hire some people to do it for me
02:34:13 <quintopia> but first, a tool!
02:36:30 <zzo38> Yes, a tool would help even if you are making something else.
02:37:09 <Bike> how do you map down. usually i just map, without a particular direction
02:57:41 -!- tswett has left ("http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.").
03:00:12 -!- muskrat_ has joined.
03:00:56 -!- muskrat has quit (Disconnected by services).
03:01:00 -!- muskrat_ has changed nick to muskrat.
03:17:27 -!- nooodl__ has joined.
03:21:09 -!- nooodl_ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
04:05:35 -!- nisstyre has quit (Quit: Leaving).
04:07:07 -!- tswett has joined.
04:07:17 <tswett> Okay, okay, I've got it.
04:08:01 <zzo38> What have you got now?
04:09:03 <tswett> We can claim that no set is bigger than the set of all natural numbers, as long as we deny that this fact entails that there's a mapping from the set of all natural numbers onto any arbitrary set.
04:09:57 <zzo38> How can you deny that?
04:10:47 <zzo38> Maybe it is possible, but in what mathematical models is that possible?
04:11:03 <tswett> Every first-order theory that admits infinite models admits countable models.
04:11:42 <tswett> Meaning there's a countable model of ZFC. And in a countable model of ZFC, all infinite sets are the same "size", in some sense, even though they have different cardinalities in the model.
04:11:54 <zzo38> Ah, OK, then.
04:15:35 <zzo38> Do you have example, please?
04:18:16 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 241 seconds).
04:29:54 <zzo38> What kind of sense is the same "size" even though they have different cardinalities
04:44:29 -!- nooodl__ has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
04:46:00 <zzo38> Can you explain it please?
04:48:58 <oerjan> it's rather trivial: you have a model of ZFC inside ZFC. by the inner logic of the model, the sets don't have the same cardinality because the model doesn't contain any bijection between them. but the whole model is a countable set in the outer ZFC, which therefore has such a bijection which is not inside the model.
04:50:02 <oerjan> so all the sets of the inner model are finite or countable from the viewpoint of the outer ZFC.
04:51:06 <oerjan> (technically the outer theory needs to be ZFC+"ZFC is consistent", i think)
04:51:51 <oerjan> (to be sure such an inner model exists)
04:52:18 <elliott> they should use that axiom all the time in ZFC.
04:52:19 <elliott> just in case.
04:53:02 <zzo38> elliott: But then it isn't really just plain ZFC, isn't it?
04:54:00 <oerjan> elliott: the advanced users (e.g. grothendieck) tend to use large cardinality axioms for this
04:54:34 <zzo38> What are "large cardinality axioms"?
04:54:38 <oerjan> but by godel's completeness theorem, just "ZFC is consistent" is what you need for a first-order model.
04:54:54 -!- Oj742 has joined.
04:55:07 <oerjan> zzo38: axioms that say that certain enormous cardinalities exist. this tends to imply thinks even stronger than consistency of ZFC.
04:55:37 <shachaf> i once went to a talk about that
04:55:48 <shachaf> i think lexande is an expert in all those things
04:56:28 <oerjan> e.g. strongly inaccessible cardinals is one kind, which iiuc imply that not only do you have models, but in the model sets are still represented as their set of elements in the outer theory.
04:57:32 <kmc> the immigration & security checks to enter Republic of Korea from United States of America are nothing compared to the checks for entering Samsung Digital City from Republic of Korea
04:57:46 <lexande> oerjan: yeah, just having set models of ZFC isn't very strong at all by the standards of large cardinal assumptions
04:57:48 <shachaf> kmc: are you in korea
04:57:55 <oerjan> (basically the sets smaller than the smallest inaccessible cardinal are a model in the most intuitive way)
04:57:58 <lexande> indeed it's just about the weakest you'd consider
04:58:01 <Sgeo> iirc there's some theorem about problems if you have "These axioms are consistent" as one of your axioms
04:58:06 <lexande> but it certainly implies CON(ZFC)
04:58:14 <Sgeo> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%B6b's_theorem
04:58:18 <kmc> shachaf: I think I might be in Samsung
04:59:37 <oerjan> Sgeo: yes that's godel's second incompleteness theorem
05:00:10 <kmc> they have effective control of this territory
05:00:32 <lexande> Sgeo: yes, but "there are set models of ZFC" is an extra axiom on top of ZFC
05:00:51 -!- ^v has quit (Quit: http://i.imgur.com/MHuW96t.gif).
05:01:06 <lexande> so once you have that, you can happily prove ZFC itself is consistent, though the extra axiom might not be
05:01:35 <lexande> if you have inaccessible cardinals then you have lots of set models of ZFC, and CON^n(ZFC) for any reasonable n, etc
05:03:04 -!- Oj742 has quit (Quit: irc2go).
05:03:22 -!- ^v has joined.
05:04:45 <lexande> and that's still pretty small by the standards of large cardinal properties
05:04:47 <lexande> http://cantorsattic.info/Upper_attic
05:05:56 <oerjan> ah the kunen inconsistency, i recall seeing that mentioned.
05:06:40 <oerjan> is that list totally ordered :P
05:07:01 <lexande> uh, well each of the entries on that list potentially defines a proper class of cardinals
05:07:11 <lexande> but it's ordered by how big the smallest in the given class is
05:07:47 <lexande> and yeah, every time you come up with one of these, you don't know if it's consistent
05:08:17 <lexande> and you can only appeal to even larger cardinal assumptions for proof of its consistency, which isn't much comfort
05:09:15 <lexande> and yeah, Reinhardt defined a large cardinal which turned out to be inconsistent with ZFC (though maybe not with ZF)
05:10:03 <lexande> but anything on that list might be inconsistent
05:10:08 <lexande> indeed ZFC itself might be inconsistent
05:10:38 <zzo38> I don't really like axiom of choice anyways, although maybe ZF + axiom of dependent choice restricted to pointed sets; does that work?
05:11:25 <lexande> zzo38: cardinalities are a mess without choice
05:12:32 <zzo38> lexande: A mess in what way, and do some weaker axioms do anything with it?
05:12:42 <oerjan> without choice, cardinalities are not always comparable; this is equivalent.
05:13:15 <lexande> you don't even have |A×A|=A without choice
05:13:42 <zzo38> Well, I am not so sure that they should be always comparable and all of that stuff anyways
05:13:50 <lexande> yeah, what oerjan said
05:14:02 <lexande> also does everybody know the story about that?
05:14:23 <shachaf> Which story?
05:14:34 <oerjan> i don't remember on the spot whether i know it
05:15:22 <zzo38> Even if you aren't using ZFC doesn't imply ZF + not axiom of choice, though, I think!
05:15:31 <oerjan> wait, is this that "an equivalence between two obviously X statements isn't interesting" story
05:16:12 <lexande> Tarski proved that "|A×A|=|A| for all infinite sets A" was equivalent to the axiom of choice, and tried to publish this theorem in Comptes Rendus.
05:16:40 <lexande> It was refereed by Frechet and Lebesgue.
05:16:42 <lexande> Both wrote letters rejecting the article. Fréchet wrote that an implication between two well known truths is not a new result. And Lebesgue wrote that an implication between two false statements is of no interest. Tarski said that he never again submitted a paper to the Comptes Rendus.
05:17:24 <shachaf> Oh, yes.
05:18:47 <oerjan> clearly this is something that should happen more often.
05:20:47 <zzo38> Neither of those rejections seem valid to me since they aren't necessarily going to be known true or false; axiom of choice is not used in all systems anyways! So, such thing still can be a new result and can be of interest, I think. Even if they are false statements.
05:21:42 <zzo38> But I don't really agree with the axiom of choice anyways, nor with the other statement necessarily, either.
05:24:52 <oerjan> zzo38: of course they weren't valid, that's why the story has become an anecdote.
05:28:06 <oerjan> this happened at a time when the idea that there was only one set of truths in mathematics was coming crashing down, but neither reviewer had realized it, even though they had made inconsistent conclusions within the mess.
05:28:19 <oerjan> imo
05:28:21 <oerjan> .
05:30:02 <lexande> zzo38: yes, thatsthejoke.jpg
05:31:11 <shachaf> `pastequotes zzo38
05:31:18 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.1654
05:32:54 <shachaf> kmc: still waiting on zzo38_ebooks
05:36:39 <zzo38> The joke is a JPEG picture?
05:36:54 <shachaf> `delquote 665
05:36:59 <HackEgo> ​*poof* <zzo38> When you die in Canada, you die in real life.
05:40:06 <oerjan> `revert
05:40:10 <HackEgo> Done.
05:40:32 <shachaf> oerjan: why
05:40:42 <oklopol> stupid question
05:41:32 <oerjan> because i don't like you deleting that
05:41:56 <shachaf> it is not a good quote for the quote list
05:42:56 <zzo38> Maybe there should be an option to hide quotations without renumbering the rest, and an option to tell it whether or not to include hidden quotations in a search.
05:48:03 -!- ^v has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
05:50:40 <oklopol> shachaf: yes it is
05:51:08 <shachaf> no, it's just quoting an internet comic strip
05:51:23 <oklopol> yeah, zzo38 quoting an internet comic strip
05:52:56 <zzo38> I think the quotation came from elsewhere and they quoted the comic strip, perhaps.
05:53:10 <zzo38> (But I do not remember.)
05:53:35 <shachaf> perhaps
05:56:26 <oklopol> http://cantorsattic.info/Upper_attic is some crazy shit
05:56:59 <oklopol> http://cantorsattic.info/Totally_indescribable#totally_indescribable lol?
05:57:09 -!- conehead has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
06:00:07 <elliott> oklopol: they can't be described.
06:02:30 <oklopol> uhttp://cantorsattic.info/Subtle#Subtle_cardinal Weakly ineffable cardinals are limits of totally indescribable cardinals. [1] ([3] for proof)
06:02:36 <oklopol> -u
06:03:04 <oerjan> and of course huge cardinals is a specific term.
06:03:16 <oklopol> i'm fine with them being actually indescribable, but then i wonder what that proof looks like.
06:05:34 <oerjan> it's like, whoa, you know
06:06:52 <oklopol> "Whenever the context-sensitive language corresponding to the set of finite configurations cannot be described by a context-free or simpler grammar, the problem of recognizing words in the language is PSPACE-complete with respect to the lengths of these words (eg. [28])."
06:06:57 <oklopol> fun reading wolfram
06:08:46 <oerjan> this must be something about finite configurations whatever that is, because there are certainly context-sensitive languages in between context-free and PSPACE-complete
06:09:18 <oerjan> (e.g. anything theta(n^k) for k > 3)
06:10:15 <oklopol> also he says the language of the limit set of a CA can in general be Pi^0_1, which he then refers to as properly RE, and type 0.
06:10:38 <oerjan> well, assuming P != PSPACE, of course.
06:10:41 <oklopol> oerjan: this is about the limit sets of cellular automata, and [28] is a standard complexity theory reference
06:10:46 <oerjan> ok
06:11:32 <oklopol> this paper is like 60 pages, it contains one proof, phrased as "it seems X that because Y"
06:11:38 <oklopol> argh
06:11:46 <oklopol> "it seems that X because Y"
06:13:57 <oerjan> seemingly X swimmingly Y
06:14:05 -!- TodPunk has joined.
07:02:44 -!- realz has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
07:05:13 -!- ^v has joined.
07:05:35 -!- realz has joined.
07:05:37 -!- realz has quit (Changing host).
07:05:38 -!- realz has joined.
07:13:24 <kmc> does JFIF support any codecs other than JPEG
07:13:32 <kmc> JFIF / EXIF
07:17:52 <shachaf> "Formally, the Exif and JFIF standards are incompatible. This is because both specify that their particular application segment (APP0 for JFIF, APP1 for Exif) must be the first in the image file. In practice, many programs and digital cameras produce files with both application segments included. This will not affect the image decoding for most decoders, but poorly designed JFIF or Exif parsers may not recognise the file properly."
07:18:13 <shachaf> i like how standard-compliant is poorly designed
07:21:07 <fizzie> Postel's law and all that.
07:25:04 <kmc> few things make me angrier than postel's law
07:26:03 <shachaf> really
07:28:50 <kmc> yeah
07:29:13 <kmc> the robot-toilet in Samsung Digital City has a warning not to smoke while you're sitting on it
07:31:30 -!- FreeFull has quit.
07:31:34 <shachaf> don't do it kmc
07:32:26 <kmc> there are, like, six different reasons for me not to smoke while sitting on the robot toilet
07:32:32 <kmc> the warning is just one of them
07:32:42 <oerjan> kmc: does it make you go postel
07:32:51 <kmc> <3
07:34:00 <oerjan> kmc: how many of those allow you to sit on the robot toilet in the first place
07:35:59 -!- ^v has quit (Quit: http://i.imgur.com/MHuW96t.gif).
07:36:40 -!- tertu has quit (Quit: Leaving).
07:37:18 <oerjan> @ask ^v why do you keep badgering us
07:37:18 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
07:52:11 <zzo38> It is not only I who hates the layout syntax of Haskell and Python (at least in Haskell it can be disabled). So does Yin Wang (someone who also discussed the call/cc "Yin-Yang Puzzle", and is linked from Wikipedia for this purpose).
07:52:48 <kmc> i do not hate haskell layout, but i do deny it my essence
07:52:52 <kmc> zzo38: what's so bad about it, tho
07:57:22 <zzo38> kmc: Some of the things are those they describe in there.
07:58:11 <zzo38> One thing mentioned there is that a single keystroke can make the program wrong.
07:58:42 <zzo38> That is different from my own reason which is that it confuses the syntax a lot, unnecessarily.
07:59:13 <zzo38> For actual tree structures, with one record per line, layout syntax does work, but still isn't necessarily best way.
07:59:25 <zzo38> However, actual programs aren't quite like that, for various reasons, nor should they be.
07:59:50 <kmc> a single keystroke can make the program wrong in a lot of other ways, too
08:00:13 <zzo38> kmc: Yes, that is true, I know; also, it isn't the reason I use anyways like I said.
08:01:22 <zzo38> Such a thing isn't really much of a problem with programming in Haskell, though, since you can use non-layout mode if you prefer. (You can even mix layout and non-layout in one file, although I do not recommend this.)
08:06:15 <kmc> i mean, granted, "there are other ways to have bugs" is a shitty (and depressingly common) argument against a feature which prevents bugs
08:06:34 <kmc> but my experience with Haskell is that bugs due to bad layout, which also pass the typechecker, are very rare
08:06:55 <kmc> (but also, bugs that hit the typechecker aren't free, and it takes experience to recognize when one has occured due to bad layout)
08:07:05 <kmc> a Haskell IDE which draws in ghostly { ; } for you would be really cool
08:07:37 <elliott> but the point of layout is that it's visually obvious...
08:07:46 <elliott> like, you might as well just use non-layout syntax then
08:08:12 <zzo38> Yes, due to the typechecker it does do this, which Python doesn't.
08:08:59 <shachaf> kmc: People have used that as an argument when trying to figure out what syntax for applicative-do should be like.
08:09:14 <shachaf> There have been various strange proposals.
08:10:05 <kmc> elliott: well you could turn it on specifically when you're learning the layout rules, or when you hit a bug that you suspect is due to bad layout
08:10:24 <kmc> it could even use a different bgcolor for every layout block!!!! like some scheme editors
08:10:30 <zzo38> I really don't like all that built-in do-notation and stuff and think macro-syntax should be used instead.
08:12:02 <zzo38> kmc: All of those IDE ideas have been discussed in Yin Wang's article, actually. (They also mentioned "syntax considered harmful"; I partially agree with that and think that macro-syntax is a better idea anyways, which also avoids some of these problems)
08:12:19 <zzo38> (They didn't mention macro-syntax, though. I did.)
08:12:56 <kmc> zzo38: what do you think of Rust's macro system?
08:13:44 <zzo38> kmc: I have looked at the documentation but don't really know much about how good it is; I haven't paid a lot of attention to Rust in general so I don't really know a lot about that.
08:13:55 <kmc> fair 'nuff
08:13:55 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined.
08:21:32 <zzo38> (And there are a few other Haskell programmers who prefer non-layout, too. But like I said it doesn't really matter much since using one or the other style doesn't prevent a module from being imported.)
08:25:17 <zzo38> I don't know if adding macro-syntax to the existing system would cause problems with layout syntax. If so, it could still be used in non-layout mode only, or possibly you could allow user-defined keywords to specify if they introduce a block, and if so check if there is a { after it whenever it occurs.
08:27:51 <FireFly> My (limited) understanding is that the parser emits { ; } block tokens based on indents/dedents, so I wouldn't think it'd impact macros
08:30:14 <oerjan> FireFly: it also emits }'s on syntax errors
08:31:43 <oerjan> that is, if ending a block in a spot can make it parse the next token, it will do so.
08:31:54 <oerjan> *an indentation block
08:36:26 <zzo38> Yes, I think it does that too
08:53:59 -!- carado has joined.
09:03:11 <zzo38> I thought of something, which is, if it can be made a kind of sequent calculus that can have not only multiple sequents above the line but also supports multiple sequents below the line?
09:07:09 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving).
09:17:30 <kmc> zzo38: so a proof would be a DAG rather than a tree?
09:21:05 <kmc> I am skeptical of macro systems where you aren't just running normal code at compile time
09:22:10 <kmc> because sometimes you just need that, and macros are a feature of last resort, so do you really want a last resort macro system and another almost-last-resort system
09:25:03 <zzo38> I don't really think macros should be a feature of last resort.
09:25:18 <zzo38> kmc: Yes I suppose so, then a proof will be a DAG.
09:26:56 <kmc> and I'm skeptical of this idea that macro systems absolutely need to enforce hygeine, as opposed to providing hygeine tools for the macro author
09:27:27 <kmc> it seems like when I write a macro in C or Haskell or Rust, often as not I *do* want to do something tricky with binders
09:27:39 <zzo38> kmc: I, too; I think it should provide hygeine rather than enforce it
09:28:02 <kmc> I'm sure I would feel differently if I programmed in Scheme but, well
09:28:37 <kmc> I think part of why macros aren't a feature of last resort in Lisps is that you don't have a static type system anyway, so you don't lose as much by abstracting on the syntactic level rather than the semantic level
09:29:42 <zzo38> I do not think macros should ever be only a feature of last result. My opinion is that do-notation in Haskell should rather be defined as a macro in Haskell, instead of built-in, too.
09:29:59 <kmc> zzo38: but abstracting on the semantic level is so much nicer
09:30:02 <kmc> easier to reason about
09:30:13 <zzo38> Also consider Forth, where the compile-time and run-time are really the same thing, and macros are really just programs.
09:30:21 <kmc> you can think more about what things are rather than how they're spelled
09:30:22 <zzo38> kmc: You can do both!
09:30:50 <kmc> zzo38: yes, but I think the phase distinction is useful, even though it should be possible to nest (so you can compile code at runtime, and run code at "compile time")
09:30:52 <zzo38> (And many standard macros can be defined in a standard library so that you don't normally need to define your own, if this would help, too!)
09:31:10 <kmc> the phase distinction is useful because it's where type checking happens
09:31:47 <kmc> (I don't actually care if machine code is generated there or later; some languages with such a phase distinction for 'static' checking might still benefit greatly from a JIT implementation)
09:32:56 <zzo38> Yes, depending on the programming language in use, such a phase distinction would be very useful.
09:34:02 <kmc> zzo38: your DAG proof idea is interesting; do you have an idea of a system which would be nice to express that way?
09:35:07 <zzo38> kmc: I don't actually know that.
09:36:35 <kmc> also there has been discussion of a Template Haskell dialect where the type of a metaprogram includes the type of the program it produces
09:36:39 <kmc> and I think MetaML works this way
09:37:07 <kmc> but I think most of the practical examples of useful macros can't be typed, then
09:38:33 <zzo38> I have seen about Template Haskell with typed metaprograms; still is useful even to have typeless metaprograms too though. But being typed may also help in some ways, and may allow some additional kinds of macros to be made in a few cases.
09:38:59 <kmc> how would it allow additional kinds of macros?
09:39:41 <zzo38> I am not sure, but depending on what other features are implemented there might be a possibility, or maybe not; I don't know for sure either way.
09:41:10 <kmc> okay
09:41:15 <kmc> if you can think of an example, let me know!
09:41:32 <zzo38> OK
09:42:16 <kmc> Servo already has a number of metaprograms and they are mostly for converting specification formats (e.g. WebIDL) into executable code
09:42:23 <kmc> none of which can be done within the Rust macro system :(
09:44:39 <kmc> and that kind of thing won't admit typing metaprograms by their output
09:46:23 <zzo38> In that case then it does seem Rust macro system does have some problems. Perhaps just allowing macros to call executable Rust programs at compile-time, would that help at all?
09:56:04 -!- AnotherTest has joined.
09:57:26 -!- shikhin has joined.
10:00:57 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Quit: ChatZilla [Firefox 25.0/20131025151332]).
10:18:06 -!- Slereah has joined.
10:22:50 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
10:23:14 -!- shikhin_ has joined.
10:24:28 -!- shikhin has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
10:31:16 -!- Taneb has joined.
10:32:24 -!- Taneb has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
10:32:30 -!- Taneb has joined.
10:32:46 <Taneb> Would I be correct to say matrix multiplication forms a category?
10:35:06 -!- nooodl has joined.
10:36:01 <Taneb> Where the category arrows are matrices and objects are dimensons
10:46:49 -!- Taneb has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
10:46:57 -!- Taneb has joined.
10:47:46 -!- Taneb has quit (Client Quit).
11:11:34 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
11:15:47 <kmc> @tell Taneb neat, I suppose it does and it would be isomorphic to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category_of_vector_spaces , or equivalent in the sense of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equivalence_of_categories anyway
11:15:47 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
11:16:50 <kmc> "For example, the dimension theorem for vector spaces says that the isomorphism classes in K-Vect correspond exactly to the cardinal numbers, and that K-Vect is equivalent to the subcategory of K-Vect which has as its objects the free vector spaces Kn, where n is any cardinal number."
11:20:46 <elliott> you'll invent categories if you try to extend monoids to be "typed" to support matrix multiplication
11:21:03 <kmc> i was going to say something about vector spaces of uncountably infinite dimension and aren't they super weird
11:21:58 <kmc> but then I remembered that functions A→K for an uncountable field K are such a vector space and seem nice and reasonable (as much as any uncountable thing can be nice)
11:22:46 <kmc> or even for a countably infinite field K
11:23:47 <kmc> er no, it depends on the cardinality of A not K, I think?
11:23:50 * kmc <--- not a mathematician
11:25:59 -!- yorick has joined.
11:26:03 <kmc> @tell zzo38 yes that would help; Rust already has a thing called "syntax extensions" which are invoked the same way as macros but can run arbitrary Rust code, unfortunately you can't define a new one except by editing the compiler
11:26:03 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
11:26:44 <kmc> @tell zzo38 also there are other problems with macros such as, they can't be exported from a compilation unit, and the scoping / module exporting is different from everything else, but these are seen as bugs to be fixed
11:26:44 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
11:28:04 -!- Bike has joined.
11:29:13 <kmc> hi Bike
11:30:22 -!- shikhin_ has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
11:52:17 -!- muskrat has quit (Quit: Leaving).
11:59:42 -!- Koen_ has joined.
12:18:23 -!- Taneb has joined.
12:20:22 -!- shikhin_ has joined.
12:21:38 <Taneb> kmc: yeah, I realised it in the context of their relation to set relation compositions
12:26:18 -!- shikhin_ has changed nick to shikhin.
12:29:10 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
12:39:41 -!- Ghoul_ has quit.
12:48:57 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Page closed).
12:52:55 -!- shikhin has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
13:02:16 -!- muskrat has joined.
13:06:50 -!- muskrat has quit (Client Quit).
13:07:08 -!- shikhin has joined.
13:09:44 -!- boily has joined.
13:10:11 -!- metasepia has joined.
13:13:19 -!- shikhin_ has joined.
13:15:57 -!- shikhin has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
13:16:08 -!- Deewiant has quit (Quit: Viivan loppu.).
13:20:48 -!- shikhin__ has joined.
13:22:14 -!- shikhin__ has changed nick to shikhin.
13:23:38 -!- shikhin_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
13:24:30 -!- shikhin_ has joined.
13:27:01 -!- shikhin has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
13:31:35 -!- shikhin__ has joined.
13:33:49 -!- ais523_ has joined.
13:33:59 -!- ais523_ has quit (Changing host).
13:33:59 -!- ais523_ has joined.
13:33:59 -!- ais523_ has quit (Changing host).
13:33:59 -!- ais523_ has joined.
13:34:19 -!- shikhin_ has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
13:35:11 -!- nooodl_ has joined.
13:38:45 -!- nooodl has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
13:45:58 <boily> good chmæric mœrning!
13:48:51 <boily> fizzie: what were we discussing concerning a possible zeta? I kinda had a long weekend (including, but notwithstanding, missile launches)
13:49:25 <fizzie> The list popular Adobe passwords.
13:50:03 <boily> oh! indeed.
13:51:17 <fizzie> It might not be as good a fit as, say, general word frequencies, which are the canonical Zipf's law example, but still.
13:55:01 <boily> everything is either zipf, branford, poisson, gamma, or uniform. outside of that, it's a weird curve invented by sadistic statistics teachers.
13:55:55 -!- shikhin_ has joined.
13:57:42 <ais523_> you know how algol 68 allows spaces in identifiers?
13:57:51 <ais523_> algol 60 also allows spaces in identifiers, but it's space-insensitive
13:57:58 <ais523_> so "foobar" and "foo bar" are the same identifier
13:58:16 <ais523_> if you want an identifier with the same name as a keyword, you add internal spaces to mark it as not being the keyword
13:58:33 -!- shikhin__ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
14:00:40 <ais523_> haha: Algol 60 defines the meanings of "true" and "false" as "obvious"
14:02:49 <Jafet> The simple days gone by.
14:02:52 <int-e> what about file_not_found?
14:03:31 <boily> ~eval succ False
14:03:34 <metasepia> Error (1):
14:03:36 <boily> ~eval succ False
14:03:38 <metasepia> True
14:04:06 <boily> fungot: how did you become the Best Bot? how did you overcome your Error (1) phase?
14:04:07 <fungot> boily: come on now, it is installed. ( require-extension ( srfi 1 13 14)) instead
14:04:18 <boily> fungot: a good tip. I'll keep that in mind.
14:04:18 <fungot> boily: except in university oo projects page on toreun.org, but i
14:04:20 <ais523_> aha, algol 60 defines whitespace as not existing and freely usable anywhere
14:04:45 <ais523_> hmm... sorear's interesting interpretation of the INTERCAL manual may actually be correct
14:04:56 <ais523_> he interpreted it as permitting whitespace within keywords, which is something that simply hadn't occured to me at all
14:05:12 <ais523_> but at least one other language that was around at the time did that too...
14:06:00 <int-e> PL EAS EDO N'T DO THAT!
14:08:05 <boily> int-e: hi! were you `relcommed already? did you appear during the weekend?
14:08:19 <ais523_> int-e: that doesn't do what you expect
14:08:31 <ais523_> the DO ends the PLEASE DON'T and then starts a new command
14:08:41 <ais523_> so you get "PLEASE DON'T" (a no-op), followed by "DO THAT" (not a no-op)
14:08:50 <ais523_> I guess you wanted it parsed all as one statement?
14:14:06 <fizzie> boily: There's a library on multivariate Bernoulli distributions that I believe gets some "real use" on 0-1 data.
14:14:16 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
14:15:31 <int-e> ais523_: I did, but I didn't really think about it :)
14:15:47 <int-e> boily: I guess I wasn't.
14:15:56 <ais523_> accidentally leaving a DO in a middle of a comment is an occupational hazard of INTERCAL
14:16:07 <int-e> boily: I've been here before, but this time lambdabot dragged me here :)
14:16:19 <ais523_> leaving disguised DOs in code intentionally to produce funny error messages is one of the joys
14:16:28 <ais523_> (even Donald Knuth has been caught doing it on occasion)
14:17:23 <int-e> my most notable intercal accomplishment is a rot13 filter (50 lines without using standard library.) ... and without comments :)
14:17:31 <fizzie> boily: (I believe there's also a related saying, something like "in the dark, all cats are Gaussian".)
14:17:48 <ais523_> oh, you're responsible for the rot13 in the pit? neat!
14:18:35 <int-e> nope, that's a different one
14:18:40 <ais523_> ah right
14:18:56 <ais523_> I guess I'm now duty-bound to add yours too, if it's appropriately licensed
14:19:04 <ais523_> because the pit is meant to be a collection of all known INTERCAL programs
14:19:14 <ais523_> (except CADIE, she's too independent-minded and also under the wrong license)
14:20:14 -!- augur_ has changed nick to augur.
14:21:13 <int-e> http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/myrot13.i (it's my code, do whatever you want with it. I'd put it in the public domain except that I can't.)
14:21:25 <ais523_> I'm at work
14:21:30 <ais523_> but I'll look at it later, if I remember
14:23:58 -!- augur has quit (Quit: Leaving...).
14:24:29 -!- Bike has joined.
14:27:34 -!- augur has joined.
14:28:40 <int-e> In any case, the most impressive Intercal program I know about is Ørjan's unlambda interpretet ( http://home.nvg.org/~oerjan/esoteric/intercal/ )
14:29:29 <ais523_> yeah, that was pretty mindblowing
14:29:38 <ais523_> oerjan isn't here right now, but he often hangs out in this channel
14:31:10 -!- mrhmouse has joined.
14:47:47 <fizzie> "He's as much of a fixture here as the channel's actual fixtures."
14:47:57 <fizzie> I guess technically speaking the channel has no actual fixtures.
14:48:33 <ais523_> should we invite chanserv in, so that it has one?
14:49:28 <Bike> we should invite a lamp
14:50:19 <fizzie> A bot running on the Linux-Apache-MySQL-PHP platform?
14:50:50 <Bike> yes. and while we're at it, a chandelier
14:52:32 <fizzie> A... C-Haskell-Apache-Netcat-Django-ELisp-INTERCAL-Erlang-R monstrosity?
14:53:44 <ais523_> now we have to write that
14:54:09 <ais523_> (also, one of my first duties at work was to write a program to perform work previously performed by an elisp CGI script that also involved manual intervention)
14:54:16 <ais523_> (I rewrote from scratch in Perl)
14:59:21 -!- ais523_ has quit (Quit: Page closed).
15:04:08 <boily> `? fixture
15:04:10 <HackEgo> fixture? ¯\(°_o)/¯
15:05:31 <fizzie> @wn fixture
15:05:32 <lambdabot> *** "fixture" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
15:05:32 <lambdabot> fixture
15:05:32 <lambdabot> n 1: an object firmly fixed in place (especially in a household)
15:05:34 <lambdabot> 2: a regular patron; "an habitue of the racetrack"; "a bum who
15:05:36 <lambdabot> is a Central Park fixture" [syn: {regular}, {habitue},
15:05:38 <lambdabot> [7 @more lines]
15:05:48 <fizzie> oerjan: an habitue of the racetrack.
15:06:25 <fizzie> (I think it's kind of like a hobbit.)
15:08:37 <Gregor> `words --help
15:08:40 <HackEgo> Usage: words [-dhNo] [DATASETS...] [NUMBER_OF_WORDS] \ \ options: \ -l, --list list valid datasets \ -d, --debug debugging output \ -N, --dont-normalize don't normalize frequencies when combining \ multiple Markov models; this has the effect \ of making larger dataset
15:08:49 <Gregor> `words -l
15:08:50 <HackEgo> valid datasets: --eng-1M --eng-all --eng-fiction --eng-gb --eng-us --french --german --hebrew --russian --spanish --irish --german-medical --bulgarian --catalan --swedish --brazilian --canadian-english-insane --manx --italian --ogerman --portuguese --polish --gaelic --finnish --norwegian --esolangs \ default: --eng-1M
15:08:57 <Gregor> `words --eng-1M
15:09:00 <HackEgo> irrt
15:09:07 <Gregor> `words --eng-1M 10
15:09:10 <HackEgo> corum clargoint chait loofefl slance exion penfut spassiol unct iistne
15:09:57 -!- Gregor has set topic: The channel of the chimæric hellos | The most corum, clargoint chait you could ever loofefl your slance in. | Magnus! | Koirammekokaan ei lennä? :( | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ or http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
15:13:05 <boily> weird stuff happens with the /töpic, and I still haven't translated «Koirammekokaan ei lennä?» yet.
15:15:40 <fizzie> You can find a discussion on that in the logs.
15:16:08 <fizzie> (If you weren't there at the time.)
15:18:36 <boily> I found «""Pystyisiköhän koirammekokaan siihen?"», which satisfies me.
15:18:51 <boily> s"\"\""\""
15:25:15 -!- conehead has joined.
15:27:26 <ion> Does/will even our dog not fly?
15:27:32 -!- FreeFull has joined.
15:33:33 <tswett> The translation I heard was "Not even our dog flies?"
15:37:02 -!- ski_ has changed nick to ski.
15:52:46 -!- nooodl_ has changed nick to nooodl.
15:55:20 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
15:55:47 -!- augur has joined.
15:59:40 -!- MindlessDrone has joined.
16:00:17 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
16:01:00 -!- Taneb has joined.
16:08:15 -!- yorick has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
16:11:58 -!- pregunton1233 has joined.
16:14:37 -!- muskrat has joined.
16:15:07 <pregunton1233> hi, is there any esoteric query language ?
16:15:55 <coppro> I'm not aware of any. That could be interesting
16:17:17 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined.
16:20:15 <pregunton1233> i speak a little bit of English. If someone has heard about something like that, or better ways to google it....¿?
16:33:38 <mroman> Besides SQL?
16:35:18 -!- nooodl_ has joined.
16:35:33 <pregunton1233> yeah
16:38:31 -!- nooodl has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
16:50:16 -!- shikhin_ has changed nick to shikhin.
16:51:28 -!- muskrat has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
16:54:16 -!- shikhin has changed nick to shikhin_implicit.
16:54:19 -!- olsner has joined.
16:54:23 -!- shikhin_implicit has changed nick to shikhin_EULA.
16:55:19 -!- Taneb has quit.
16:55:20 -!- jix has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
16:55:57 -!- shikhin_EULA has changed nick to shikhin.
17:04:03 -!- augur has joined.
17:12:35 -!- pregunton1233 has quit (Quit: Page closed).
17:16:32 <olsner> kmc: so did you manage to prove x86 turing complete without registers?
17:16:45 <Bike> "sure, just use the MMU!"
17:21:13 <olsner> `thanks Bike
17:21:14 <HackEgo> Thanks, Bike. Thike.
17:51:03 -!- ^v has joined.
17:53:00 <boily> mmu mmu mmu ♪
17:54:07 <olsner> `thanks mmu
17:54:08 <HackEgo> Thanks, mmu. Thu.
17:54:57 <boily> `pastlog muu muu muu
17:55:28 <HackEgo> No output.
17:55:31 -!- zzo38 has joined.
17:55:33 <boily> bin wéyons.
17:55:49 <boily> I can't beleive there aren't any «muu muu muu» in the logs.
17:56:01 <int-e> well there are now
17:56:09 <boily> `pastlog muu
17:56:12 <olsner> boily: I can believe it
17:56:20 <HackEgo> 2013-02-08.txt:08:48:53: <ion> !run printf '%s\n' 'Ääretön omahyväisyys miehet menivät edestakaisin yli maapallolla heidän pikku asioista, seesteinen niiden varmuus niiden imperiumi yli asiasta. On mahdollista, että infusoria mikroskoopilla tekemään samoin.' | hyphenate.fi
17:56:33 <boily> olsner: you heathen!
17:56:38 <boily> ion: you speak Finnish?
17:58:22 <fizzie> It's not terribly uncommon, here.
17:59:39 <boily> I kinda noticed a slight tendency towards North Germanic languages and Finno-Ugric ones in this fine chännel.
18:00:06 <Bike> i am fond of english, yes
18:04:14 <fizzie> Are you a fondue of English, too?
18:04:31 <Bike> wouldn't that require boiling me alive
18:04:48 <olsner> fondues aren't usually boiling, are they?
18:04:55 <olsner> you would need to be melted though
18:05:09 <boily> fondues are best when only gently simmering.
18:05:11 <Bike> frankly i think i'm fine in my current collection of phases.
18:05:56 <boily> (♪ new quest ♪ find a nice place with shabushabu)
18:06:20 <olsner> Bike: you need to break free of your matrix of solidity
18:07:23 <mrhmouse> boily: high leg shabu shabu
18:07:41 <boily> high leg???
18:08:58 <mrhmouse> high leg flying shabu-shabu palace, yes.
18:10:16 * boily googles it, and dearly hopes that it's SFW. “I mean, high leg flying? What kind of place is that...”
18:11:02 <mrhmouse> it's SFW, as far as anime is SFW
18:11:21 <boily> ...
18:11:29 <mrhmouse> assuming you even come across what I thought your were referencing
18:12:12 * boily round-house fshtucks mrhmouse with a cast-iron fondue pot
18:13:19 <olsner> mrhmouse: I think he may have been looking for a restaurant rather than an anime
18:13:21 <mrhmouse> no! I'm lactose intolerant!
18:14:37 <mrhmouse> olsner: I figured as much, but I felt the need to add to the absurdity of the conversation
18:15:37 <boily> ~yi
18:15:38 <metasepia> Your divination: "Sojourning" to "Radiance"
18:16:12 <boily> olsner: you shall support mrhmouse in his Quest of the Absurd, as he will Shine onto It and express due resplendescence.
18:17:24 <mrhmouse> in the Word of our Absurd Father, fnord
18:19:26 <quintopia> boily
18:19:34 <quintopia> i have to package your food
18:19:40 <quintopia> motivate me
18:19:42 <FireFly> In the word of fungot, fnord?
18:19:43 <fungot> FireFly: _and_ a few other people.) cliki-bot was written by a 70's fnord with all that pasta sauce... then they'd use their stack, they are by default hygenic, but can never know which.
18:20:06 <FireFly> Sounds tricky
18:20:36 <boily> quintopia: snow has come to Québec City this last weekend, and should appear on Montréal's surface soon. are you going to let a poor Canadian starve in the cold?
18:22:36 <mrhmouse> FireFly: fungot, addled be Thy Brain, fnord
18:22:37 <fungot> mrhmouse: yes, but nontheless you need to use exec with strings and 32/ 64 variants on ldc and some other stuff.
18:25:13 <quintopia> boily: sure. plenty of them. but not you.
18:25:41 -!- ^v has quit (Quit: http://i.imgur.com/MHuW96t.gif).
18:25:56 -!- ^v has joined.
18:25:58 <^v> il
18:26:12 <^v> sorry, hexchat derp
18:26:39 -!- Taneb has joined.
18:27:16 <fizzie> Hexchat, the official client of Hexham?
18:27:34 <Taneb> Aye
18:28:05 <boily> Tanello.
18:30:31 <FreeFull> What is irssi the official client of?
18:30:43 <boily> Finlandia.
18:42:08 -!- prooftechnique has joined.
18:50:05 -!- conehead has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
18:52:18 <zzo38> Do you know how to make a sequent calculus where numbers that aren't divisible by four are theorems? I have done (while trying to do something else, which turns out to be equivalent).
18:53:26 <Bike> why four
18:53:52 <zzo38> Bike: I could have used a different number but I used four.
18:54:03 <Bike> why
18:54:26 <zzo38> No reason.
18:54:56 <zzo38> ?messages-loud
18:54:56 <lambdabot> kmc said 7h 28m 52s ago: yes that would help; Rust already has a thing called "syntax extensions" which are invoked the same way as macros but can run arbitrary Rust code, unfortunately you can't
18:54:56 <lambdabot> define a new one except by editing the compiler
18:54:56 <lambdabot> kmc said 7h 28m 11s ago: also there are other problems with macros such as, they can't be exported from a compilation unit, and the scoping / module exporting is different from everything else, but
18:54:56 <lambdabot> these are seen as bugs to be fixed
18:56:08 <mrhmouse> zzo38: in your calculus, is 0 divisible for four (strictly checking remainder)?
18:57:36 <mrhmouse> *by four. My mind is absent today.
18:58:16 <zzo38> mrhmouse: Yes; there is no way to prove zero in it.
18:58:40 <zzo38> What I have done is encode the rules for the subtraction game S(1,2,3), which is equivalent.
19:00:28 <mrhmouse> Do you have a link for the subtraction game? I'm not familiar with it and a search just turns up math resources for children.
19:00:56 <zzo38> Rules W1, W2, and W3 say that 1, 2, and 3 are axioms; you can win in one turn. Rules T1, T2, and T3 each have three sequents above the line for the three possible opponent's move after one of your moves.
19:01:32 <zzo38> mrhmouse: Did you try Wikipedia? Look at [[Nim]]
19:01:42 <zzo38> One of the subsections describes subtraction game.
19:04:19 <zzo38> The game isn't so difficult, but it makes the point of encoding in a sequent calculus in order to make theorems which are the numbers that aren't divisible by four.
19:18:29 <boily> in an alternative Universe, zzo38 would be a great glassperlenspiele player.
19:19:10 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Disconnected by services).
19:19:54 <boily> s/(s(?=s)|e\b)//
19:20:41 <quintopia> there's a great episode of The Real Hustle about the subtraction game
19:20:47 <quintopia> i've always wanted to try it
19:20:52 <quintopia> rip someone off big
19:33:18 <Taneb> Today for the first time I encountered a mormon
19:33:20 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined.
19:33:26 <Taneb> Trying to convert me
19:34:41 <shachaf> Oh, so did I the other day.
19:35:09 <kmc> did it work
19:35:39 -!- nooodl has joined.
19:35:40 <shachaf> not sure
19:35:52 <mrhmouse> shachaf: do you feel mormon
19:35:59 <shachaf> they said i should go to mormon.org and it would make me really happy
19:36:03 <shachaf> i didn't go there until a few seconds ago
19:36:09 <shachaf> so i guess i did go there
19:36:20 <kmc> did it work
19:36:28 <shachaf> i'm reasonably happy but i'm not sure whether it has to do with mormon.org
19:37:15 <kmc> reasonably < really
19:37:20 <kmc> false advertising
19:37:31 <shachaf> true but i didn't actually read the website
19:37:42 <kmc> does it work if you wget mormon.org
19:37:47 <kmc> what if you send HEAD instead of GET
19:38:04 <shachaf> hmm maybe they said www.mormon.org and i didn't use the www
19:38:10 <shachaf> i should've taken one of their cards
19:38:58 <kmc> aitch tee tee pee colon slash slash doubleyou doubleyou doubleyou dot mormon dot org
19:39:04 <kmc> slash robots dot text
19:39:14 <shachaf> dot tee ex tee
19:39:29 <kmc> https://github.com/humans.txt
19:39:29 -!- nooodl_ has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
19:40:10 <fizzie> I was hoping for advice on how to visit the site, not just names of dudes and dudettes.
19:41:25 -!- prooftechnique has quit.
19:50:56 -!- Koen_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
19:51:14 -!- Koen_ has joined.
19:52:25 <int-e> "
19:52:25 <int-e> Selfish doesn't have any repositories you can view.
19:52:27 <int-e> "
19:53:30 <Bike> shachaf clearly went to the site the wrong way. try AOL keyword "mormon"
19:54:05 <boily> btw, I splat the languages from the Wisdom PDF into their own chapter.
19:54:50 <int-e> wisdom probability density function ... nice concept :)
19:55:16 * boily gently scuttles away from int-e
19:56:07 -!- shikhin_ has joined.
19:56:35 <int-e> aww
19:56:37 <boily> int-e: if you haven't read the PDF available in the /topic yet, may I interest you in doing so? the Experience will be Enlightening ↑
19:57:03 <boily> I hate statistics. not as much as spiders, but I do.
19:57:26 <kmc> statistics is like a spider: it has 8 legs and it crawls into your mouth while you're sleeping
19:57:30 <boily> otoh, I got nothing against snakes, except when related to a CS book.
19:57:45 <kmc> have you read your TaPL today
19:57:55 <boily> what's a tapl?
19:57:55 <kmc> omg i told someone to read TaPL and they did!
19:58:01 <kmc> while sitting in a tent in rainy malaysia
19:58:07 <Bike> types and programming languages
19:58:08 <kmc> Types and Programmin' Languages
19:58:32 <Bike> i have a "read" copy in front of me right now in fact, which i will proceed to ignore in favor of writing about plastic models of sulfur hexafluoride
19:58:34 <boily> kmc: were you the one in rainy malaysia, or was it the someone?
19:59:21 -!- shikhin has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
19:59:25 <kmc> the someone
20:05:31 <int-e> @ghc
20:05:31 <lambdabot> Duplicate instance declarations
20:06:03 <kmc> @ghc
20:06:03 <lambdabot> Duplicate binding in parallel list comprehension
20:06:33 <boily> @ghc
20:06:34 <lambdabot> My brain just exploded.
20:06:41 <boily> ~yi
20:06:41 <metasepia> Your divination: "Ground" to "Welling"
20:14:06 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
20:18:47 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
20:20:09 -!- conehead has joined.
20:21:34 -!- yorick has joined.
20:28:43 -!- Oj742 has joined.
20:29:02 <boily> `relcome Oj742
20:29:05 <HackEgo> Oj742: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
20:35:56 <Oj742> Hello
20:37:27 -!- ^v has quit (Quit: http://i.imgur.com/MHuW96t.gif).
20:37:40 <quintopia> Oj742: NICE JORB
20:37:48 <quintopia> (and nice to meet you finally)
20:39:49 <Oj742> ?
20:40:13 <int-e> `relcome int-e
20:40:16 <HackEgo> int-e: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
20:44:13 <boily> quintopia: you know therm?
20:44:33 -!- ^v has joined.
20:45:10 <quintopia> boily: how could i not?
20:45:39 <quintopia> Oj742 has the second best warrior on the bfjoust hill right now
20:46:07 <Oj742> dat darn omnipotence...
20:46:38 <boily> ooooooooh!
20:47:28 <quintopia> of course, it was only third best until i made a slight change ... and the next change i make will put it back there...
20:47:52 -!- nisstyre has joined.
20:48:42 <quintopia> (i could easily beat omnipotence with space_hotel since omnipotence is hard-coded to beat space_hotel based on its decoy setup. shameless special-casing. but it doesn't bother me that much.)
20:49:28 <Taneb> bfjoist is something I have no talent for at all
20:49:48 <Taneb> Remember when werecatt appeared and suddenly dominated the hill
20:50:54 <boily> @tell werecatt when do you plan to dominate again?
20:50:54 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
20:51:49 <Taneb> `seen werecatt
20:51:54 <HackEgo> not lately; try `seen werecatt ever
20:51:56 <Taneb> `seen werecatt ever
20:52:12 <HackEgo> not that I remember
20:52:18 <Taneb> `seen david_werecatt ever
20:52:33 <HackEgo> not that I remember
20:52:37 <boily> foiled.
20:52:38 <Taneb> :(
20:53:23 <Oj742> I think its spelled with only one 't'
20:53:27 <mrhmouse> boily: (x + y) * (a - b)
20:53:48 <boily> mrhmouse: oui?
20:54:03 <mrhmouse> f.. foiled. I'll show myself out
20:54:53 -!- doubleaykay has joined.
20:54:57 -!- doubleaykay has quit (Client Quit).
20:54:58 <boily> fungot: can you translate from mrhmouse to French?
20:54:58 <fungot> boily: i like do better since it has a language called irp. this eventually made many people on scheme are you using?
20:55:09 <boily> oh, irp!
20:55:20 <boily> would someöne please translate mrhmouse for me?
20:56:01 <boily> (meanwhile, there is an intense liquorice taste in my mouth.)
20:56:08 <int-e> "FOIL means First, Outside, Inside, Last."
20:56:30 <mrhmouse> I was making a terrible reference to the operation int-e is referring to
20:56:46 <int-e> i.e. the order of expansion in expressions with parentheses. (the things one learns when hanging out on math channels...)
20:56:50 <mrhmouse> it's a mnemonic schoolchildren learn
20:57:01 <olsner> boily: did you eat liquorice or do you e.g. have a brain disorder causing you to taste stuff?
20:57:02 <int-e> not in Germany ;-)
20:57:12 <boily> not in French Canada.
20:57:18 <mrhmouse> not in America
20:57:24 <mrhmouse> it's taught here, but that makes no difference
20:57:49 <boily> olsner: a cow orker likes it, and very sneakily gave me some. I don't have brain disorders. I am sane.
20:58:29 <int-e> (x + y) * (a - b) = (axe + aye) / e - (box + boy) / o
20:59:20 * boily duct tapes mrhmouse and int-e together
20:59:45 <int-e> hmpf
20:59:51 <Vorpal> boily, I like the phrase "cow orker" better than the actual phrase
21:00:03 <Bike> int-e: cute.
21:00:12 <Vorpal> boily, nice typo
21:00:49 <Vorpal> olsner, Speaking of liquorice, do you like it? What about salty "sweets"?
21:00:50 <boily> it wasn't a typo, sadly. I wish I had created it, tho. hth. twh. tdnh.
21:01:05 <Vorpal> boily, twh? tdnh?
21:01:15 <boily> Vorpal: don't you dare steer the conversation towards salmiakki and its brethren.
21:01:21 <boily> `? twh
21:01:23 <HackEgo> twh would help, but is an hth derivative. hth. twh. hand.
21:01:24 <boily> `? tdnh
21:01:26 <HackEgo> tdnh does not help
21:01:36 <Vorpal> boily, what is salmiakki?
21:01:37 <olsner> Vorpal: I don't eat the salty kind, only the sweet (and not very often)
21:01:46 <Vorpal> olsner, phew
21:02:04 <Vorpal> I'm not a fan of liquorice. Nor do I like the salty Swedish "sweets"
21:02:26 <boily> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salmiakki
21:02:42 <olsner> I like terva leijona though
21:02:56 <boily> s/terva/nepeta/
21:03:02 <Vorpal> boily, oh right, saltlakrits, right
21:03:09 <Vorpal> Yeah it is terrible stuff
21:03:41 <boily> “... with tar flavouring.” you guys are completely insane.
21:03:47 <Vorpal> boily, no idea why anyone would like it, and I live in Sweden, where this stuff is somewhat common
21:04:16 <Taneb> boily, I can never remember which options to use to taste it
21:04:25 <Taneb> Is it -xf or -cf or what
21:04:47 <Vorpal> Taneb, to do what?
21:04:57 <int-e> tar
21:04:57 <Vorpal> -xf is tar for extracting, -cf is for creation
21:05:05 <olsner> boily: that's finnish btw, it's *them* guys that are insane
21:05:14 <Vorpal> -cf archive.tar directory-to-tar
21:05:34 <olsner> Vorpal may or may not have missed the joke
21:05:35 <Bike> radar shows the joke has successfully been destroyed. good work, people. let's go home
21:05:44 <Vorpal> olsner, oh, duh
21:05:46 <Vorpal> right
21:06:23 <Phantom_Hoover> maybe tar means molasses or something?
21:06:28 <Phantom_Hoover> <Vorpal> I'm not a fan of liquorice. Nor do I like the salty Swedish "sweets"
21:06:29 <fizzie> Are you guys dissing our stuffs?
21:06:30 <boily> when we want something sweet, nothing beats http://www.recettes.qc.ca/recette/tarte-au-sucre-1168 . four cups of brown sugar!
21:06:43 <Vorpal> boily, Personally I'm quite fond of 70-90% chocolate though
21:06:45 <boily> fizzie: only unedible stuff.
21:06:50 <Vorpal> More than 90% is a bit too much
21:06:55 <fizzie> boily: Incidentally, you can get tar-flavoured ice cream at a couple of restaurants here.
21:06:58 <boily> Vorpal: nothing less than 90% for me. 99% is the best.
21:07:08 <Phantom_Hoover> i had to show some danes around my school a couple of years ago, they gave us various danish treats afterwards
21:07:08 <int-e> I'm not sure why UNIX spells 'cat' forward and 'rat' backward.
21:07:25 <boily> intercultural fternooner exchange!
21:07:27 <Phantom_Hoover> they were so uniformly horrible that i can only assume they were picked to fuck with the foreigners
21:07:42 <nooodl> it also spells 'cat' backward!
21:07:47 <Bike> i like how there's an 'ar' separate from 'tar'
21:07:54 <Bike> "ar, but specifically for tapes"
21:07:58 <Vorpal> boily, And I like white chocolate at the other end of the spectrum (lets leave the discussion about whether that is chocolate for another time).
21:08:04 <Vorpal> Not much in between though
21:08:20 <olsner> I think ar is for, like, random-access archives
21:08:27 <fizzie> boily: http://www.ravintolaharald.fi/service.cntum?pageId=145900 "Sweet Endings" "HARALD’S TAR DELIGHT -- Homemade tar ice cream(whose secret recipe is closely guarded by Harald) served with pear compote, cinnamon-caramel sauce and crispy flatbread sticks."
21:08:32 <fizzie> boily: (It's a kind of terrible touristy place, but I think someone wrote a nice blog post about the ice cream once.)
21:08:35 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I believe they claim it is an acquired taste
21:08:42 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, but I guess that could just be a code name
21:08:46 <olsner> fizzie: is the tar ice cream any good?
21:09:05 * boily checks prices for a ticket to Finlandia...
21:09:07 <fizzie> olsner: Well, I mean, it's no chocolate. But it wasn't bad either.
21:09:11 <int-e> nooodl: I believe I've even used 'tac' once or twice ... :)
21:09:22 <fizzie> olsner: http://susan-stepney.blogspot.fi/2011/06/tar-ice-cream.html there you go.
21:09:32 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:09:51 <Phantom_Hoover> how does tac actually work
21:10:00 <Phantom_Hoover> does it just store stdin in a buffer or what
21:10:37 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I guess it could start from the last argument and then scan backwards, reading a chunk at a time
21:10:41 <fizzie> I believe the coreutils tac does something more clever if you give it a seekable file.
21:10:45 <int-e> Phantom_Hoover: short of time travel, that's about the only thing it can do (on pipes)
21:10:47 <Vorpal> Then reverse each chunk
21:10:53 <fizzie> But buffering is involved for pipes, sure.
21:10:57 <Vorpal> Yeah assuming it is seakable
21:11:11 <nortti> Phantom_Hoover: that's how toybox tac does it, at least
21:11:37 <Vorpal> nortti, toybox is a pretty terrible thing though
21:11:39 <boily> there are rumors of a seekable pipe from an outer eldritch dimension, that can tac without buffering from the True End of All Inputs.
21:11:52 <Vorpal> nortti, Like a half-arsed busybox clone
21:11:58 <nortti> hmm?
21:12:09 <Vorpal> Isn't toybox the one Android uses?
21:12:13 <nortti> no
21:12:17 <fizzie> boily: I'd like to see a "tac | head" on that.
21:12:18 <nortti> that is toolbox
21:12:25 <boily> (hm. I have to expect to shell out about two grands to get myself shipped over to the Suomen Tasavalta.)
21:12:28 <int-e> the GNU 'tac' has a tac_seekable function, which hopefully does something clever :)
21:12:30 <Vorpal> nortti, Oh okay, easy to confuse those
21:12:48 <nortti> toybox is a busybox-like tools by the ex-maintainer of busybox, rob landley
21:12:50 <fizzie> boily: That sounds suspiciously expensive. Oh, I guess that's some Canadian fake money?
21:12:55 <nortti> intended to be cleaner version
21:12:59 <Vorpal> Ah
21:13:10 <Vorpal> nortti, does it still use the kernel config system?
21:13:14 <nortti> yes
21:13:23 <nortti> why?
21:13:25 <Vorpal> Fair enough, there are a lot of options I guess
21:13:37 <boily> fizzie: our money may be fake, but at least it's well-designed. and it has the Queen of England on it!
21:13:45 <Vorpal> nortti, why it uses it or why I ask?
21:13:56 <fizzie> boily: Oh yes, I remember hearing it's very colorful.
21:14:07 <nortti> Vorpal: why you asked
21:14:17 <quintopia> `seen david_werecat ever
21:14:18 <Vorpal> nortti, not a lot of projects uses it.
21:14:19 <boily> fizzie: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_dollar
21:14:22 <HackEgo> 2013-01-18 02:52:09: <david_werecat> Hello
21:14:24 <nortti> true
21:14:32 <quintopia> damn that's a long time ago
21:14:35 <nortti> busybox used it last time I built it, too
21:14:36 <Phantom_Hoover> `seen aloril ever
21:14:39 <boily> I'm eager to see the new 5 and 10$!
21:14:46 <Vorpal> nortti, the kernel, busybox, uclibc... That is about it that I know of
21:14:50 <HackEgo> not that I remember
21:15:13 <Phantom_Hoover> i've checked the logs btw, aloril_ has been here for over a decade and has never spoken once
21:15:18 <fizzie> boily: I think it "only" cost something like a thousand EUR (1.4 kCAD) for me to get to Portland and back, and that's like almost in Canada.
21:15:28 <fizzie> ("kCAD" is probably a CAD program.)
21:15:38 <Vorpal> nortti, so how does toybox and busybox compare to each other from a feature completeness point of view?
21:15:48 <nortti> busybox has a shit-ton more
21:15:49 <Vorpal> Is toybox a drop-in replacement at this point?
21:15:52 <Vorpal> Ah okay
21:15:54 <nortti> not yet
21:15:55 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: nice.
21:16:14 <Vorpal> nortti, ignoring weird stuff like a built in micro-webserver in busybox?
21:16:26 <nortti> it still lacks shell
21:16:37 <nortti> and df has yet to get '-h'
21:16:38 <Vorpal> Eh, that is kind of major yeah
21:16:47 <boily> fizzie: I only checked Air Canada, which is far from being the best option out there.
21:16:55 <Vorpal> nortti, what about color options to ls? I can't remember if busybox has that
21:17:04 <nortti> a sec
21:17:18 <Vorpal> Yeah it does
21:17:21 <nortti> busybox has it, toybox does too
21:17:32 <fizzie> boily: Also I guess you can always mail yourself in a box?
21:17:32 <Vorpal> good, that makes it so much easier to work with
21:17:33 * quintopia orks boily's cows
21:17:51 <Vorpal> nortti, what about binary sizes when built for equal features?
21:18:06 <nortti> hmm, no idea
21:18:17 <quintopia> anyone here ever use mpmath in python?
21:18:18 <Vorpal> Eh well, I guess I'll keep an eye on it though
21:18:25 -!- prooftechnique has joined.
21:18:26 <boily> fizzie: I could. I quintopia'd a box of cookies, and I'm marginally heavier than that, so I have experience.
21:18:36 <Vorpal> quintopia, sounds interesting, what does it do?
21:18:46 <nortti> but for my current config busybox is 512kB and toybox is 136kB
21:18:56 <boily> fizzie: checking prices on hotwire cuts the amount by half.
21:19:05 <quintopia> Vorpal: arbitrary precision complex-valued math
21:19:24 <Vorpal> quintopia, oh, so not MP as in multi *processor*
21:19:31 <Vorpal> Not so interested any more, sorry
21:19:33 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
21:19:44 <quintopia> i like the idea of boily being only slightly heavier than a box of maple leaf cookies
21:19:54 <Bike> psh, what's the point without quaternions
21:20:20 <Vorpal> I should try to learn quaternions at some point
21:20:35 <quintopia> here let me teach you
21:20:42 <Vorpal> Okay...?
21:20:56 <nortti> Vorpal: I suggest you try it on some linux system you are comfortable hacking with. currently I'm running it on my main system and sometimes encounter stuff that blows up due to GNUisms
21:21:31 <quintopia> i²=j²=k²=ijk=-1
21:21:32 <Vorpal> nortti, well I doubt I will ever switch from GNU Bash as my interactive shell. I'm just to used to it's features and quirks
21:21:35 <quintopia> now you know quaternions
21:21:48 <Vorpal> quintopia, yeah that about covers it :P
21:21:51 <nortti> ah. I'm also running non-toybox shell
21:22:05 <nortti> because the current toybox shell is, to put it kindly, shit
21:22:09 <Vorpal> nortti, and tools for that matter
21:22:12 <nortti> (mksh, ftw)
21:22:24 <Vorpal> nortti, I use weird non-standard options to tools out of convenience
21:22:29 <nortti> ah
21:23:07 <nortti> well, in that case, continue on with your gnu coreutils
21:23:10 <Vorpal> nortti, when I look at map 1p grep I get scared. There is no -L for example for files without matches. Something I used like 5 minutes ago
21:23:21 <Vorpal> s/map/man/
21:23:51 <nortti> oh, interesting. my grep manpage is from sbase
21:24:00 <Vorpal> man 1p not man 1
21:24:03 <Vorpal> or what do you mean
21:24:07 * nortti reminds itself to fix manpages sometime
21:24:10 <Vorpal> nortti, anyway on a modern system, the extra bloat in gnu coreutils doesn't really matter
21:24:13 <boily> map map map ♪
21:24:37 <nortti> I mean that my grep(1)'s manpage is from suckless' sbase collection
21:24:46 <Vorpal> I have 16 GB RAM. I'm not going to run out just because true has a --help and a --version!
21:24:53 <nortti> heh, true
21:25:14 <Vorpal> Also this computer has like 4.5 TB storage in total, though a bit of that is tied up into RAID
21:25:17 <nortti> I, on the other hand, still have in active use a machine with 1MB of RAM
21:25:25 <Vorpal> That is just the internal storage
21:25:44 <nortti> I have 30GB HD, 20% used
21:25:46 -!- MindlessDrone has quit (Quit: MindlessDrone).
21:25:55 <Bike> poll: should i take a class in electric circuits, or a class in microcontrollers
21:25:59 <Vorpal> nortti, The least advanced system I have that i actually use is my RPi. Coreutils run fine there too with 512 MB RAM
21:26:00 <olsner> every page held up by the help text for true is a page that isn't used caching all that data
21:26:35 <Vorpal> olsner, XD
21:26:46 <kmc> Bike: can you give me more info about the μC class, syllabus or list of materials or such
21:26:52 <olsner> unless you're sufficiently lucky that the help text is in all separate pages that don't get loaded from disk (and don't have relocations, etc)
21:26:58 <Bike> let me see.
21:27:14 -!- boily has quit (Quit: TRIPLE CHICKEN FAULT!).
21:27:16 -!- metasepia has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:27:18 <kmc> μC programin' is extremely easy to pick up on your own, since it's now a huge hobby field with lots of resources for everyone including total tech beginners
21:27:47 <kmc> and I think a lot of college μC classes have a "party like it's 1985" vibe
21:27:55 <Bike> haha.
21:27:55 <Vorpal> olsner, I get similar read speed "experience" with my 2x 1 TB in RAID 1 at home to my insane 250 GB Intel 520 SSD at work. Both are just too fast for me to notice.
21:27:59 <kmc> programming weird chips in assembly because that's what we did back in the day, damnit
21:28:09 <kmc> which... could be fun, but is mostly a slog ime
21:28:22 <Bike> i'm thinking of switching to a track that would make me take both classes, so eh
21:28:27 <kmc> ah, neat
21:28:38 <Vorpal> Bike, electric circuits could be fun
21:28:45 <Bike> ah hey, the syllabus is online.
21:28:59 <int-e> olsner: don't most shells have true and false built in anyway?
21:29:16 <Bike> ISAs, serial communication, writing efficient code, timing, async/interrupts, blablablabla
21:29:24 <kmc> otoh there is a HUGE gap between hobby arduino stuff and the kind of EE you need to know if you want to design a cheap tiny robust power-efficient mass-producable device
21:29:27 <Bike> "Discuss the central components of Microchip MIPS32 RISC microcontrollers" so that gives an idea of materials
21:29:42 <Bike> is mips weird 1985?
21:29:43 <Vorpal> olsner, anyway echo $(( $(du -b /bin/true) / 1024 ))
21:29:43 <Vorpal> bash: 22880/bin/true / 1024 : division by 0 (error token is "/true / 1024 ")
21:29:48 <Vorpal> That is funny
21:29:54 * Vorpal is confused
21:29:58 <Bike> "Operate and control a basic robotic car" oh ho ho.
21:30:02 <Vorpal> neh
21:30:03 <Vorpal> meh*
21:30:24 <Vorpal> True is pretty big though, 4 pages in total
21:30:26 <kmc> well at least the MIPS architecture is simple and elegant and has free C compilers
21:30:28 <Bike> "Required textbooks: None" i really like the EE department's style
21:30:43 <int-e> 27080 bytes here, excessive :/
21:30:46 <Vorpal> kmc, AVR is pretty common these days
21:31:01 <Vorpal> int-e, 22880 for me
21:31:05 <kmc> i dunno if the peripheral parts of the Microchip ones are nice or not
21:31:06 <Vorpal> So somewhat less
21:31:10 <kmc> Vorpal: for college classes? that's good
21:31:27 <Vorpal> kmc, 4 pages? Yeah ;P
21:31:28 <kmc> our infamous intro microcontrollers class used a custom board with an 80186 and a load of other chips on it
21:31:36 <Bike> required materials... chip is from a local supplier i've liked so far, basic lights and switches... ooh, a stereo amp... bluetooth... robotics kit
21:31:38 <kmc> 4 pages what?
21:31:38 <olsner> Vorpal: 22880 is more like 6 pages
21:31:41 <Vorpal> kmc, I meant memory pages for /bin/true
21:32:05 <kmc> I think we used the 80186 because they bought a barrel of them back in 1985 and were still using them up
21:32:12 <Bike> looks like the compiler is this thing http://www.microchip.com/pagehandler/en_us/devtools/mplabxc/
21:32:16 <kmc> I think MIT uses the 8051? not sure tho
21:32:30 <Bike> obviously i should write a rustc backend for my robocar
21:32:33 <Vorpal> olsner, hm, I did du /bin/true, which is 512 byte blocks, which is 24. Divided by 2 is 12. Divided by 4 (For 4k) is... 3 actually
21:32:48 <Vorpal> olsner, who is right?
21:32:55 <kmc> 80186 is obscure enough that most of the time when I googled for resources, I found only the website for the course I was taking :(
21:33:16 <Bike> uh, damn.
21:33:20 <olsner> Vorpal: I'm right, obviously
21:33:31 <Vorpal> olsner, where is my math wrong then?
21:33:35 <Vorpal> kmc, 80186? Is that like their second CPU?
21:33:36 <Bike> maybe i should check the professor to make sure he's not the anti masonic guy
21:33:56 <int-e> Vorpal: the assumption that du uses 512 byte blocks
21:34:09 <Vorpal> int-e, pretty sure it does? I remember reading that some time ago
21:34:24 <Vorpal> Oh wait
21:34:26 <kmc> Vorpal: no, there was the 4004 and the 8008 and the 8080 and the 8086/8088 and maybe others
21:34:30 <Vorpal> q Display values are in units of the first available SIZE from --block-size, and the DU_BLOCK_SIZE, BLOCK_SIZE and BLOCKSIZE environment variables. Otherwise, units default to 1024 bytes
21:34:30 <Vorpal> (or 512 if POSIXLY_CORRECT is set).
21:34:30 <Vorpal> '
21:34:38 <Vorpal> Right
21:34:44 <kmc> first intel processor ever was for some japanese calculator
21:34:48 <Vorpal> int-e, So I was correct under POSIX
21:35:17 <kmc> the 80186 was an attempt to turn the 8086 into a microcontroller but not really in the modern sense, it still needs external ROM and RAM and loads of other stuff
21:35:25 <int-e> Vorpal: but that's a small excuse for not noting that 512*24 is quite far from 22880 :)
21:35:35 <kmc> http://wolverine.caltech.edu/eecs51/kits/kit51ins.htm
21:35:36 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
21:35:40 <Bike> "This course covers a wide spectrum of software testing techniques for traditional and object-oriented languages"
21:35:47 <Vorpal> int-e, I'm better at math with letters than math with actual digits? Kay?
21:36:01 <int-e> Vorpal: ok.
21:36:25 <Bike> "Software Testing: A Craftsman’s Approach" they've infilitrated the textbooks!
21:36:33 <kmc> :(
21:36:46 <Vorpal> Bike, eeww. That sounds like the opposite of quickcheck
21:37:03 <kmc> "The biggest change comes in the growing prominence and acceptance of Agile Programming."
21:37:11 <Vorpal> Which is of course the best testing technology that I know of currently
21:37:27 <Bike> of course
21:37:42 <Bike> well, anyway, i'm not taking that class, just thought that was amusing.
21:38:02 <kmc> blatantly gendered language? in my CS textbook? it's more likely than you think
21:38:13 <fizzie> Our DSP assembly course had what I think was quite a "90s" vibe when it came to hardware it ran on (a TI TMS320C54x devkit, some fancy 56K audio box with knobs, and some AD SHARC thing).
21:38:20 <Bike> oh hey, i didn't even notice, you're right.
21:38:48 <int-e> oh ... gender ... "middle person attack" sounds awful, imho.
21:39:24 <Vorpal> kmc, gendered? How do you mean?
21:39:32 <Bike> "craftsman"
21:40:05 <kmc> I generally don't accept it when men say "but it's just TOO HARD to come up with better words"
21:40:16 <Vorpal> Hm
21:40:18 <Bike> crafter
21:40:29 <mrhmouse> craftsperson?
21:40:40 <Bike> mega craftinator z
21:40:49 <mrhmouse> crafty cat
21:41:06 <kmc> anyway the uses of "craftsman" in startupland are meaningless pompous marketing fluff so they should probably be excised alltogether
21:41:15 <Vorpal> Craftsman is a common word though. While I would agree that it would be a bad *new* word to be created. I don't really care about existing words.
21:41:18 <fizzie> "Software Testing: Mega Craftinator Z's Approach" has a certain ring to it.
21:41:29 <Vorpal> kmc, that I can agree on though
21:41:37 <kmc> i'm happy being an engineer, being an engineer is awesome, I don't need to pretend I'm a rockstar or a painter or a craftsman instead
21:41:47 <Vorpal> Quite
21:42:09 <Vorpal> kmc, Though being a Rockstar painter crafting engineer would be awesome
21:42:15 <olsner> why be any of those things when you can be MEGA CRAFTINATOR Z?
21:42:42 <Bike> mega craftinator z is formed when rockstar blue, painter red, crafter yellow, and engineer pink combine, that's why
21:42:42 <kmc> Vorpal, int-e: I think it's very hard for men to empathize with what it's like to be a woman in programming and receive tiny (usually unintentional) signals every day that say you are abnormal and you aren't a Real Programmer etc
21:42:55 <kmc> this is my opinion after listening to lots of women describe their experiences in the field
21:43:00 <Vorpal> kmc, hm
21:43:07 <fizzie> Bike: Which one of them forms the head?
21:43:07 <kmc> obviously, not all women feel this way
21:43:19 <Vorpal> kmc, Craftman has nothing to do with programming though, as you just said.
21:43:21 <kmc> but if you can fix the language to make some people more welcome, without really hurting anyone else, why not do it?
21:43:29 <kmc> Vorpal: we were talking about the title of a software book..........
21:43:36 <Vorpal> kmc, but should we change the word "human" just because it contains "man"?
21:43:37 <kmc> and more generally about the term's (mis)use in programming
21:44:02 <Bike> yeah it's a bit silly to say "well I don't care" when you're included in "craftsman"
21:44:02 <Bike> like, obviously.
21:44:02 <Bike> fizzie: i haven't taken my class in megacontrollers yet, couldn't tell you :(
21:44:03 <Vorpal> Swedish has the same issue, "människa" = human "män" = men
21:44:05 <kmc> Vorpal: maybe eventually? but we have to start somewhere
21:44:17 <kmc> Vorpal: it's a bit of a slippery slope fallacy you're making
21:44:23 <fizzie> I suggest "humoid", just because "humoid resources" sounds good.
21:44:30 <kmc> Vorpal: you might want to read http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~evans/cs655/readings/purity.html
21:44:44 <Bike> haha i was just going to link that.
21:45:10 <Vorpal> kmc, no, I'm very much against creating *new* words like "craftman". But I also find it silly to keep changing an existing language unless there is more than a few people who complain about it
21:45:13 -!- mrhmouse has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
21:45:19 <kmc> there are TONS of people who complain about this
21:45:22 <kmc> you aren't listening to them
21:45:23 <Bike> incidentally, 'human' is etymologically not related to 'man'.
21:45:28 <Vorpal> kmc, also I read that
21:45:47 <Vorpal> Bike, oh? Interesting. How does it work out then?
21:46:03 <Bike> 'human' is from 'homo', 'man' is from germanic 'mann' or something
21:46:08 <Vorpal> Hm
21:46:09 <kmc> Vorpal: it's amazing how people will claim that biased language doesn't matter and yet fight really hard to keep it
21:46:12 <Bike> part of english's general half french thing.
21:46:12 <kmc> why do you care so much
21:46:25 <kmc> if some people dislike this word, and by your own admission it's silly to care, then just let them win
21:46:54 <kmc> Vorpal: and what did you think of the essay?
21:47:27 <Vorpal> I read it a couple of years ago. Yes it has a point. But, kmc, I think creating neologisms all over the place just lead to unnecessary and pointless confusion.
21:47:40 <kmc> what's your basis for claiming it's confusing, at all?
21:47:52 <kmc> who will be confused if I say "craftsperson" or "maker" or "artisan" or any of 10 other synonyms instead of "crafstman"
21:48:25 <FreeFull> Developer makes me think of photography or hair
21:48:25 <Vorpal> kmc, try replacing "man" with "person" or similar in all words like "craftsman" for a week in all speech and writing and see if people don't get confused
21:48:42 <Vorpal> kmc, "artisan" or "maker" would work yes
21:48:46 <kmc> Vorpal: I have been doing this for years
21:48:47 <Vorpal> craftsperson would not
21:48:50 <kmc> Vorpal: not a single person has ever been confused
21:48:54 <Vorpal> kmc, interesting. Hm
21:49:02 <Vorpal> Well then I might be wrong I guess.
21:49:07 <nooodl> another interesting etymology fact:
21:49:19 <nooodl> latin "habere", "to have", is cognate to english "give", not english "have"
21:49:35 -!- sebbu has joined.
21:49:35 <kmc> it's cool how I had this same exact argument with the JavascriptMVC people like a year ago and they gave me all of the standard bingo-card excuses not to change it and then they finally fixed it after a whole year
21:49:38 <nooodl> latin "capere", "to take", *is* cognate to english "have".
21:49:44 <Vorpal> nooodl, that sounds implausible. How does that work out?
21:49:56 <Taneb> ...the DM's telling me off for derailing the adventure and we haven't actually started yet
21:50:10 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host).
21:50:10 -!- sebbu has joined.
21:50:24 <Vorpal> kmc, I don't think I will take any personal action regarding it though, I simply don't care enough about the issue.
21:50:30 <kmc> Vorpal: then you're just a dick
21:50:34 <kmc> what's the cost to you
21:51:12 <Vorpal> kmc, Having to keep remembering to do it all the time, scan the phrases ahead and so on.
21:51:22 <nooodl> "habere" and "give" are from PIE *gʰabʰ-
21:51:27 <nooodl> "capere" and "have" from *keh₂p-
21:51:59 <nooodl> also cool: "Since there is no common Indo-European root for a transitive possessive verb have (notice that Latin "habeo" is not related to English "have"), Proto-Indo-European probably lacked the have structure. Instead, the third person forms of be were used, with the possessor in dative case, cf. Latin mihi est / sunt, literally to me is / are."
21:51:59 <kmc> you know what's a lot harder than having to think before you speak? being anything other than a middle-class white man in programming
21:52:02 <kmc> consider this a small tax
21:52:08 <kmc> towards a better, more fair world
21:52:56 <kmc> i find that thinking before I speak has all kinds of benefits....
21:53:01 <Vorpal> kmc, and I personally don't know anyone who is bothered by it, neither male nor female. I know a woman who I remember saying pretty much "whatever" in a discussion about this.
21:53:18 <kmc> pack it up, feminism is solved
21:53:30 <Vorpal> kmc, oh come on, strawmans aren't cool
21:53:42 <Vorpal> sorry "strawpersons"
21:53:43 <kmc> Vorpal: perhaps your attitude towards these things has some selection effect on the people you know?
21:54:06 <kmc> I know lots of people who do care
21:54:15 <Vorpal> kmc, maybe? *Shrug*. I'm nice towards people of either gender I hope. But I couldn't give a damn about the language itself.
21:54:16 <Bike> Vorpal: it's not really a straw argument, given that "i haven't checked but nobody seems to care so stop caring" was your actual argument.
21:54:24 <kmc> perhaps the fact that I don't dismiss their experiences just for being different of mine has something to do with the fact that they continue to talk to me
21:54:49 <Vorpal> Bike, I didn't tell kmc to stop caring. I just said I didn't care myself because nobody around me in "real life" has seemed to care at all.
21:54:54 <kmc> yes
21:54:56 <kmc> and I said that makes you a jerk
21:55:00 <kmc> if you're ok with that, we can move on
21:55:26 <lexande> Vorpal: i don't think it's reasonable to assume that they'd tell you if they did care
21:55:50 <Vorpal> kmc, I think that saying that makes me a jerk is a bit much. I make a point of *not* laughing at sexist jokes nor of course telling them. Even in an all male company.
21:55:54 <Vorpal> Stuff like that.
21:56:01 <lexande> they might expect you to respond defensively, as you did to kmc
21:56:19 <kmc> wow you make a point of not telling sexist jokes even when you could get away with it
21:56:22 <kmc> gold star for you
21:56:23 <lexande> and yes there are obviously bigger jerks and this is not the most important issue in the world
21:56:34 <nooodl> what is wrong with "craftsman" if you use it to mean "craftsperson"
21:56:37 <Vorpal> lexande, not to an actual woman saying that no.
21:56:41 <Vorpal> That would carry some weight.
21:56:49 <kmc> sigh
21:56:51 -!- Sprocklem has joined.
21:57:01 <Vorpal> nooodl, Well argue that with kmc. I'm out. I need to sleep
21:57:08 <kmc> 'night Vorpal
21:57:18 <kmc> nooodl, see above?
21:57:34 * nooodl logreads
21:57:42 <lexande> Vorpal: obviously if you want citations of women who care it's easy to find many. also sexism hurts men too.
21:58:40 <kmc> nooodl: the crux of it is <kmc> … I think it's very hard for men to empathize with what it's like to be a woman in programming and receive tiny (usually unintentional) signals every day that say you are abnormal and you aren't a Real Programmer etc
22:00:13 <lexande> Vorpal: anyway if you sometimes slip up and say something like "craftsman" it's not a huge deal, but you should avoid it if you notice yourself doing it, and accept it graciously when people point out the mistake
22:00:19 <kmc> right
22:00:56 <kmc> I think people get defensive because there's an implication that if you call someone out on behavior you are saying they're a horrible malicious sexist as a personality trait
22:01:00 <kmc> that's not how it works
22:01:13 <kmc> sexism is malware, we all get some of it from growing up in a patriarchal society
22:01:16 <kmc> we help each other get rid of it
22:01:23 <quintopia> whoa
22:01:35 <quintopia> didn't expect to see this discussion here
22:01:46 <kmc> hi quintopia
22:02:10 <nooodl> the thing with "man" to me is, in certain contexts, like "craftsman", it's plain obvious that people aren't REALLY talking about just male people
22:02:11 * kmc is still working on how to make the preceding point without tone-policing
22:02:21 <kmc> nooodl: intent isn't everything
22:02:30 <kmc> nooodl: did you read http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~evans/cs655/readings/purity.html
22:03:29 <lexande> kmc: was about to link to that
22:03:48 <kmc> I already did when I had the same conversation with Vorpal that I'm about to have with nooodl
22:03:55 <kmc> except I might fuck off instead
22:04:00 <Bike> now i'm wondering where i saw it first. maybe it was in his book on translation
22:04:10 <kmc> I got it from shachaf, I'm pretty sure
22:04:38 <kmc> it's not, like, a perfect analogy, but it goes a long way imo
22:04:42 <quintopia> i kind of agree with nooodl here. i understand the stewardess/steward -> flight attendant thing since in that case, the terms are definitively gendered, but "man" meant "human" before it meant "male human", and i don't mind saying "craftsmanship" or "workmanship" if i'm not around someone who hasn't explicitly told me it offends them
22:04:59 <kmc> it doesn't really matter what a word meant thousands of years ago
22:05:06 <kmc> it matters what thoughts and feelings it produces in someone hearing it today
22:05:21 <Bike> i don't mind making sexist jokes unless i'm around someone who's told me it offends them
22:05:34 <lexande> kmc: do we s/MITM/PITM/
22:05:46 <Bike> heh
22:05:56 <Phantom_Hoover> what's wrong with malcolm??
22:06:02 <quintopia> most folk i know don't get a feeling of offense from the word "craftsmanship". if i knew someone who did, i wouldn't. same with a lot of other things.
22:06:11 <kmc> quintopia: I went over that with Vorpal too
22:06:14 <Bike> carol is the attacker. clearly a great step forward for feminism.
22:06:26 <quintopia> it's specific to these words though, because the connotation in them isn't obvious
22:06:31 <lexande> quintopia: how do you know what other people feel?
22:06:32 <quintopia> other words it is
22:06:36 <kmc> also I really hate the word "offended" because people totally lose their shit whenever it comes up
22:06:44 <kmc> let's talk about, are you HURTING people
22:06:47 <Bike> what the heck do you mean it's not obvious, it says "man" right there
22:06:48 <kmc> whether or not you intended to
22:06:49 <nooodl> kmc: yeah "offended" is dumb
22:06:51 <kmc> maybe only a little
22:06:55 <kmc> yes, maybe it would be better if all women magically stopped noticing gendered language
22:07:00 <kmc> that's some irrelevant sci fi scenario
22:07:07 <kmc> it's not their responsibility to fix the system
22:07:09 <quintopia> fine. use that word. s/offense/hurt/
22:07:25 -!- Oj742 has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
22:07:58 <quintopia> i know what people feel because they are my friends and i pay attention to them and care about them
22:08:27 <quintopia> and i can see that my friends are happy when i say they have displayed quality craftsmanship regardless of gender
22:08:44 <kmc> it's fine that your friends don't mind
22:08:52 <nooodl> imo this shouldn't be a matter of audience
22:09:07 <kmc> there are lots of things I personally don't mind, which I still wouldn't subject random people to
22:09:32 <quintopia> i don't interact with random people too much. i'm more careful around strangers.
22:09:34 <Bike> just, look, can't you step back and say, ok, this is a small thing and i'm going to say i "don't care" about it while arguing, maybe i can just step back and consider why other people are arguing versus why i'm arguing
22:09:53 <Bike> maybe they have friends who it bothers? whooooo knooooows
22:09:55 <nooodl> i mean. i have friends i can call "assholes" jokingly, but that doesn't make that an alright word to use anywhere!
22:09:57 <shachaf> hi
22:10:04 <Bike> hi shachaf. what is up.
22:10:24 <shachaf> people mentioned me, hi people
22:10:41 <quintopia> asshole has a clear negative connotation. i am against using words with clear negative connotations without good reason around strangers
22:10:45 <Phantom_Hoover> hello shachaf
22:11:10 <quintopia> hi shachaf what do
22:11:26 <lexande> anyway it's not like this is some sort of purity question where you're a terrible person if you ever use language that could be construed as non-gender-neutral
22:12:40 <kmc> maybe since women are only 15% of programmers and only 1.5% of open source contributors and leave the field at more than twice the rate of men, we could try being extra careful and welcoming even if a lot of them don't really care
22:12:44 <kmc> just a thought
22:12:45 <kmc> doesn't cost much
22:13:20 <lexande> and certainly some instances of gendered language (e.g. MITM) are much harder to get rid of than others
22:13:25 <kmc> yep
22:13:31 <kmc> I still say MITM
22:13:38 <kmc> I don't claim to be perfect or anything
22:13:40 <lexande> but in general it's desirable to use less gendered language
22:13:41 <int-e> mouse in the middle :)
22:13:42 <quintopia> i kind of want "man" to mean what it once did again. i want to live in a world where everyone you respect is "ser" regardless of gender. at the very least i want to gender-neutralize language without having to add more syllables.
22:13:53 <Bike> well you fucking don't, deal with it.
22:14:10 <quintopia> i want to deal with it by moving towards that
22:14:14 <quintopia> tell me how
22:14:26 <Bike> give up on the man thing. it's pointless. nobody cares about syllable counting.
22:14:28 <kmc> but you're not willing to add one more syllable every time you say "craftsmen" (which is, how often?)
22:14:34 <lexande> quintopia: do you always use 'they' instead of 'he' or 'she'?
22:15:20 <quintopia> if i don't know gender yeah. except when specifying a hypothetical person in formal writing, in which case i alternate between the two gendered pronouns
22:15:35 <kmc> do journals etc. not accept singular "they"?
22:15:48 * quintopia shrugs
22:15:50 <lexande> quintopia: 'they'ing everybody would move you towards the world you describe
22:16:13 <nooodl> i'm going to be honest here: it took me two entire paragraphs of http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~evans/cs655/readings/purity.html before i "got it"
22:16:22 <lexande> (regardless of whether you know gender)
22:16:23 <quintopia> i do my formal writing for the example of high school students, and singular they is not accepted grammar yet. it's a survival adaptation for my job.
22:16:30 <kmc> that's fair, I think
22:16:58 <Bike> nooodl: tangent: where are you from?
22:17:10 <nooodl> belgium. native dutch speaker
22:17:38 <lexande> quintopia: singular they has a long history in english, goddammit
22:17:40 <Bike> i've been wondering how much of "getting it" is based on being american, is all.
22:17:52 <quintopia> lexande: some people prefer specific pronouns and request they be used. i would be moving away from the spirit of wanting the world i describe if i imposed pronouns on people that didn't want them
22:18:12 <quintopia> lexande: but they don't have a long history in style books
22:18:16 <lexande> quintopia: have you ever met someone who objected to being described as "they"?
22:19:13 <nooodl> it probably was. i sorta glossed over the "-white" words thinking "oh this must be some obscure english thing i've never heard about". now that i carefully look at the list it's really obvious...
22:19:18 <quintopia> lexande: upon asking, i have never met someone who specifically requested, and i am trying to always ask
22:19:31 <quintopia> *requested "they"
22:19:57 <lexande> i have met people whose preferred pronoun is 'they'
22:20:10 <lexande> but also people with lots of other preferred pronouns, but they were all okay with being called 'they'
22:20:19 <lexande> and this is much easier than keeping track of neologisms
22:21:31 <nooodl> honestly i think i'd feel awkward using neologism pronouns for someone... never had to, though
22:21:57 <lexande> i know someone whose preferred pronoun is 'it'
22:22:15 <Bike> i used to know someone who preferred 'it' too, it was definitely awkward for me
22:22:20 <nooodl> obviously using them is the respectful thing to do and isn't a huge effort to get used to using pronoun x, but it'd never stop sounding weird to me
22:22:23 <lexande> referring to them that way around people who don't know them risks causing actual confusion, i think
22:22:32 <lexande> but they are fine with 'they' so that's easy
22:22:42 <nooodl> yeah 'it' is a very bad idea...
22:22:46 <int-e> it's a bit awkward to use 'it' as a third person pronoun
22:23:28 <kmc> the irony of the "women would tell me if they care!" response is that women who speak up are often ignored or worse, and it's only when a man says the same thing that people take it seriously
22:23:33 <int-e> (to me, mainly because "it's" is so commonly used.)
22:23:52 <lexande> i'm not sure what to do about the fact that most of the thinking i'm familiar with on this issue is quite anglocentric
22:24:58 -!- jix has joined.
22:25:13 <lexande> in english it's actually feasible to use 'they' for everything, but in some other languages it's a right mess
22:25:33 <shachaf> imo everyone switch to finnish
22:25:40 <fizzie> _o/
22:25:40 <myndzi> |
22:25:41 <myndzi> /<
22:25:52 <Taneb> lexande, that's what they want you to think
22:25:59 <nooodl> yeah i have to use "he" in dutch :/
22:26:17 <nooodl> also in french plural "they" is gendered!! an even bigger mess
22:26:19 <fizzie> We have our fair share of gendered words, but at least the third-person singular pronoun problem is fixed.
22:26:56 <fizzie> E.g. lawyer is "lakimies" (lit. lawman) and I don't know if there's really a good, accepted alternative.
22:27:14 <fizzie> Possibly "juristi", but that's kinda loanwordy.
22:27:25 <Bike> ok i laughed at the image of fizzie making that expression, thanks myndzi
22:27:29 <fizzie> (Also might have slight differences in meaning? I don't know, I'm no lawman.)
22:27:49 <kmc> are women lawyers also referred to as "lakimies"?
22:28:14 <fizzie> Yes.
22:29:20 <kmc> ok
22:29:31 <kmc> do many of them mind?
22:31:20 <quintopia> the weird thing about this william satire thing is that the examples actually work...the usages of "white" he cites /are/ race-inclusive. if i lived in his world, i would probably be won over by some of his arguments.
22:31:22 <fizzie> I only know that a nonzero fraction do. But I'm not aware of much of a movement to get rid of that particular term, for some reason.
22:32:06 <fizzie> Apparently "juristi" *is* being used increasingly as the replacement.
22:32:13 <Bike> quintopia: same tangent: where are you from?
22:32:25 <kmc> quintopia: are you white by any chance?
22:32:55 <quintopia> u.s. and yes
22:33:02 <kmc> it's easy for white men to claim (and even believe) that we "don't see race and gender" because we don't need to for survival... the whole western world is already set up to see us as the default kind of human being
22:33:21 <Phantom_Hoover> cf. Vorpal
22:33:42 <lexande> kmc: i recall that referring to Carla del Ponte (sometime prosecutor of the UN ICTY and ICTR) as "la procureuse" instead of "le procureur" in french was considered a statement in the direction of feminism
22:34:06 <kmc> heh
22:34:17 <kmc> which is the opposite of how it would be seen in english
22:34:59 <kmc> but that's fine... cultural context influences language connotations, film at 11
22:35:05 <lexande> at least, i remember someone remarking on this irony
22:35:29 <kmc> I like how every curse word in Spanish varies between mild G-rated teasing and horribly offensive depending on where you are in Latin America
22:35:42 -!- nooodl_ has joined.
22:37:07 <Bike> yeah, ok, i've thought about it, and i'm just going to say i have no coherent response to "yeah i'm ok with calling bosses white and workers black".
22:37:37 <int-e> German is going the same way, unfortunately (I had to stop a while to realise that most of my objections to gender-neutral language are actually based on the mockery they make of it in German (Putting an emphasis on distinguishing between male and female forms first, and then torturing the grammar by combining "Foo" and "Fooin" into "FooInnen", that'd be something like "waiterEsses" in english ... horrible.).)
22:38:03 * kmc -> breakfast buffet
22:38:05 <kmc> ttyl all
22:38:14 <Phantom_Hoover> breakfast???
22:38:15 <Taneb> Dear god what time zone are you in
22:38:19 <quintopia> kmc: i can't claim that i don't see race and gender. sometimes i must work to ignore it.
22:38:22 <fizzie> @localtime kmc
22:38:23 <lambdabot> Local time for kmc is Mon Nov 11 14:38:22 2013
22:38:23 <Bike> i think he's in japan?
22:38:26 <kmc> korea
22:38:29 <Bike> shit
22:38:35 <int-e> I also found a quote by Hofstadter here, http://people.mills.edu/spertus/Gender/pap/node21.html (look for "This is not progress") which rings true to me.
22:38:38 <fizzie> lambdabot: You got it wrong!
22:38:41 <fizzie> (I think.)
22:38:47 <kmc> my VPS is still in America/Los_Angeles
22:38:49 <Bike> see, this is why i can't get a bouncer. it's dishonest
22:38:57 <Bike> what if i was on the moon. nobody would know
22:39:02 -!- nooodl has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
22:39:09 <kmc> `run TZ=Asia/Seoul date
22:39:11 <HackEgo> Tue Nov 12 07:39:10 KST 2013
22:39:26 <fizzie> Bike: You should get a separate bouncer located in every place you might ever be.
22:40:00 <Bike> ah i knew i had a reason for wanting a network of satellites
22:40:05 <Bike> int-e: nice page
22:40:14 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Heading west for pizza).
22:40:26 -!- Taneb has joined.
22:40:31 -!- Taneb has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:40:37 <Bike> "It is unknown in what way Man used to make love, when he was a primitive savage millions of years ago" lol
22:40:55 -!- Taneb has joined.
22:41:00 -!- Taneb has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:43:35 <Bike> i wonder if that's old enough to be "make love" as in romancin', or fucking
22:44:17 <kmc> fucking++
22:44:36 <fizzie> @karma fucking
22:44:36 <lambdabot> fucking has a karma of 1
22:44:41 <fizzie> You must've been the first.
22:44:48 <fizzie> (Or else there's a delicate balance.)
22:45:11 <fizzie> (Or did that thing pick up postfix increment/decrement? I forget.)
22:46:32 <int-e> @karma c
22:46:33 <lambdabot> c has a karma of 1
22:46:36 <int-e> fizzie: it didn't :)
22:46:51 <Bike> isn't that specialcased
22:48:15 <shachaf> int-e: It did.
22:48:22 <shachaf> You run lambdabot! You should know better!
22:48:24 <fizzie> There are so many karma subsystems, it's hard to keep track.
22:48:42 <shachaf> As far as I'm concerned you should get rid of the special case.
22:48:47 <shachaf> And also make me an admin.
22:48:56 <fizzie> @karma c/c
22:48:56 <lambdabot> c/c has a karma of 582
22:50:02 <Bike> shachaf shall be appointed Karma Czar
22:50:03 <int-e> shachaf: I misparsed the question. I thought it was about handling foo++ as a post-increment ... looking again, I don't know why.
22:50:22 <int-e> @karma foo
22:50:22 <lambdabot> foo has a karma of 3
22:50:23 <Bike> fizzie: ha ha.
22:50:35 <int-e> @karma+ c
22:50:35 <lambdabot> c's karma raised to 2.
22:50:40 <shachaf> int-e: It was.
22:51:22 <int-e> shachaf: post-fix- != post-.
22:51:45 <int-e> but never mind.
22:52:18 <shachaf> Oh.
22:52:50 <int-e> apparently, mentioning C++ no longer reduces one's karma (it did that for a while when karma was new) :)
22:53:21 -!- nisstyre has quit (Quit: Leaving).
22:54:04 -!- Bike has quit (Quit: Reconnecting).
22:54:17 -!- Bike has joined.
22:54:53 <nooodl_> int-e: you had to give away your own karma to ++ somebody?
22:55:12 <shachaf> int-e: No, that was java.
22:55:14 <shachaf> @karma+ java
22:55:14 <lambdabot> shachaf's karma lowered to 65.
22:55:16 <int-e> nooodl_: no, C++ was special-cased :)
22:55:20 <shachaf> That should be removed.
22:55:45 <nooodl_> @karma- java
22:55:45 <lambdabot> java's karma lowered to -5.
22:55:49 <nooodl_> @karma+ java
22:55:49 <lambdabot> nooodl_'s karma lowered to -1.
22:55:55 <int-e> I might change it to PHP ;-)
22:55:58 -!- nooodl_ has changed nick to nooodl.
22:56:02 <nooodl> nice _ shield there
22:56:07 <int-e> nooodl_ ++
22:56:13 <int-e> err, nooodl_++
22:56:14 * shachaf sighs.
22:56:18 <int-e> @karma nooodl_
22:56:18 <lambdabot> nooodl_ has a karma of 0
22:56:25 <nooodl> @karma nooodl
22:56:25 <lambdabot> You have a karma of 1
22:56:28 <nooodl> how'd THAT happen
22:56:32 <Bike> y'all are totally ruining the integrity of the karma system.
22:56:39 <int-e> Bike: hahaha
22:57:25 <Bike> back in my day, when snobol had a karma of twelve it fucking MEANT something
22:57:41 <int-e> huh, there's a "<foo>'s karma unchanged at <n>" message ...
22:58:37 <fizzie> fungot: At least you track karma by making good old-fashioned subjective value judgements and not just picking up on keywords.
22:58:37 <fungot> fizzie: and its very easily done.
22:58:54 <fizzie> fungot: Well, be fair, not every bot is so AI-complete.
22:58:54 <fungot> fizzie: it shouldn't contain at all, actually. it produces com files for pete's sake!!! fnord style transformation sequence fnord
22:59:04 <Phantom_Hoover> oh fungot how i love thee
22:59:05 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: change that to a struct foo*, it becomes the new seed
22:59:28 <fizzie> Good advice.
22:59:55 <Bike> was fungot just talking about a magical girl whose transformation sequence involves com files
22:59:55 <fungot> Bike: what do you mean
23:00:03 <Bike> i mean, fungot, that that rules
23:00:03 <fungot> Bike: fnord ( 0x0001) at fnord
23:00:47 <fizzie> I think that's some kind of an error message.
23:00:57 <Bike> fungot: yeah, maybe all the characters could be virus themed. i like it. you a good writer, ever considered submitting something to a studio?
23:00:57 <fungot> Bike: like i said,
23:01:08 <int-e> but I think it belongs into the "this will never happen" category.
23:01:46 <Bike> fungot: i missed it.
23:01:46 <fungot> Bike: maybe i don't understand how to do any sort of type containing a type: in haskell,
23:01:53 -!- monotone has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:01:56 <Bike> i don't either, man.
23:02:07 <fizzie> And that's, of course, crucial if you want to submit some writing.
23:02:51 <Bike> fungot has high standards. a rigorous, type-theoretical approach to the animes.
23:02:57 -!- oerjan has joined.
23:03:31 -!- monotone has joined.
23:03:51 <Bike> fungot, helloooooo
23:04:10 <nooodl> Bike: shh it's writing an anime
23:04:14 -!- ^v has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
23:04:16 -!- FireFly has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
23:04:23 <int-e> !bfjoust slowsuicide [(+-)*100-.]
23:04:25 -!- ^v has joined.
23:04:27 <EgoBot> ​Score for int-e_slowsuicide: 8.3
23:05:09 <shachaf> fungot: you should write an irc bot
23:05:09 <fungot> shachaf: yes, but i was asking the question for long descriptions, the program will do is just use string-uninterned-symbol, but you can still have make-queue take an argument, and returns false
23:05:36 <shachaf> fungot: you should buy a boat
23:05:36 <fungot> shachaf: and it'll all be happy to use scheme to make you do a hot-code update in scheme
23:06:00 <shachaf> fungot: why are you so obsessed with programming!! there are other things in life
23:06:01 <fungot> shachaf: i thought that the joke might be that your particular statement needs a and some others
23:09:08 <int-e> fun, I expected more than 4 draws (and fewer wins) :)
23:10:10 <shachaf> fungot: fungot fungot fungot
23:10:10 <fungot> shachaf: ( runnin ( define x ( tag-pointer dpy ' a))
23:10:23 <shachaf> fungot more like schemegot
23:11:15 -!- FireFly has joined.
23:12:40 <fizzie> Blame #scheme for that.
23:12:48 <nooodl> fizzie: fungot should balance its parens at least??
23:12:49 <fungot> nooodl: pretty soon i'm going to give you access to the char-sets.
23:13:07 <quintopia> int-e: you'd probably do better with a straight up vibrator.
23:13:07 <nooodl> fungot: i'm honoured
23:13:07 <fungot> nooodl: i've overlooked the syntax-closure-transformer in your question" :) swap them around. bah. many languages have both " ocaml interaction" and " association"? how do i use srfi-9 records in gambit?
23:13:46 <quintopia> !bfjoust very slow suicide (-)*127(-+)*8000-
23:13:49 <EgoBot> ​Score for quintopia_very: 22.0
23:14:01 <quintopia> lul
23:14:04 <quintopia> good enough
23:14:16 <Bike> if you keep slowing the suicide does it become life (and higher scores)
23:14:45 -!- S1 has joined.
23:15:13 <quintopia> yeah that never gets a chance to suicide. it either wins or is legitimately beaten before it clears its flag. except against simple locks
23:15:21 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/CKIi huh
23:16:03 <int-e> !bfjoust slowsuicide (+-)*50001
23:16:07 <EgoBot> ​Score for int-e_slowsuicide: 9.1
23:16:10 <Bike> jesus
23:16:51 <int-e> !bfjoust slowsuicide (+.+-)*50001
23:16:53 <EgoBot> ​Score for int-e_slowsuicide: 10.9
23:16:56 <int-e> ok, I'll stop there :)
23:17:15 <quintopia> int-e: vibrating between 0 and 1 is strictly better than vibrating between -128 and -127
23:17:34 <quintopia> because there are many things on the hill which have no counter-vibration
23:18:00 <nooodl> wait what does . do in bfjoust?
23:18:11 <int-e> nop
23:18:14 <nooodl> ah
23:18:15 <quintopia> waste a cycle
23:18:23 <int-e> +. is a real suicide :)
23:18:30 -!- S1 has changed nick to S2.
23:18:31 <int-e> (if noone interferes)
23:18:36 -!- S2 has changed nick to S1.
23:18:53 <quintopia> int-e: not really. (+.)*128 would be
23:19:05 <quintopia> but then, so would be (+)*128
23:19:13 <int-e> (+.+-)*50001
23:19:16 <oerjan> `addquote <boily> everything is either zipf, branford, poisson, gamma, or uniform. outside of that, it's a weird curve invented by sadistic statistics teachers.
23:19:21 <HackEgo> 1130) <boily> everything is either zipf, branford, poisson, gamma, or uniform. outside of that, it's a weird curve invented by sadistic statistics teachers.
23:19:42 <quintopia> oh good quote
23:19:48 <quintopia> zipf is power law right
23:19:52 <Bike> yeah
23:19:53 <quintopia> i don't know branford
23:19:55 <Bike> also: but cauchy :(
23:20:04 <int-e> quintopia: in the 128th interation, the flag should be zero for two consequutive cycles, or am I missing something?
23:20:05 <quintopia> also: exponential
23:20:05 <Bike> "nobody uses cauchy you sadist"
23:20:24 <int-e> (wow, my spelling is awful.)
23:20:30 <quintopia> int-e: you're missing the fact that "end of program" is the same as "forever nop"
23:20:50 <nooodl> wow i have just enough tabs open for chrome to draw icons for every other tab
23:21:01 <quintopia> nooodl: too many
23:21:02 <nooodl> i guess it's like a rounding thing
23:21:17 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/egostats/ updated after a long while with all those Oj742 programs.
23:21:27 <S1> <CTCP>PING 1384212085640<CTCP>
23:21:37 <Bike> great, now i have to ask boily what branford is
23:21:45 <Bike> some obscure joke probably
23:22:05 <quintopia> fizzie: thanks! looks like we might be seeing the first uptick in bf activity since january. good thing it waited for me to get home.
23:22:07 <int-e> quintopia: there's enough instructions for 200k cycles anyway. (I'm not disputing that (+)*128 is a suicide)
23:22:28 -!- S1 has left.
23:22:53 <fizzie> Bike: I think maybe Benford?
23:23:11 <nooodl> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benford%27s_law
23:23:45 <fizzie> Also missing: good old von Mises-Fisher.
23:23:59 <int-e> quintopia: So let me restate ... the code (+.+-)*50001, left alone, should set the flag to zero for two consecutive cycles (when executing +. when the flag is -1), and lose, after 4*128-2 steps. Is that right?
23:24:03 <quintopia> fizzie: wow ALL_IN only wins on even tape lengths. it must have >> in its clear loop.
23:24:40 <fizzie> Though maybe it was more about "appears in real world" and not "used by people" listing.
23:25:00 <quintopia> int-e: is it 4*? check egojsout. it prints cycle numbers.
23:25:28 <Bike> "A continuous probability distribution on the circle" neat
23:25:43 -!- S1 has joined.
23:25:59 <Bike> oh, i see, when you add -fisher it's an n-sphere instead. good going, fisher
23:26:02 -!- S1 has left.
23:26:55 <oerjan> <int-e> In any case, the most impressive Intercal program I know about is Ørjan's unlambda interpretet ( http://home.nvg.org/~oerjan/esoteric/intercal/ ) <-- :))
23:27:06 <int-e> quintopia: yes it is.
23:27:58 <quintopia> kk
23:28:38 <fizzie> quintopia: Some of those tape heat-map plots seem to have become confused, will have to check them out later.
23:28:51 <nooodl> oerjan: i hadn't seen that one either. it's impressive!
23:29:27 <nooodl> the "DO CONTINUATIONS DREAM OF MONADIC SHEEP" lines are very intercal and i'm going to believe that they magically do useful stuff
23:30:52 -!- avid has left.
23:31:00 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:31:34 -!- augur has joined.
23:33:21 <quintopia> interesting that space_hotel gets grouped with preparation
23:33:24 <oerjan> <fizzie> Also missing: good old von Mises-Fisher. <-- clearly those were sadistic stats teachers. especially fisher, did you know he supported eugenics?
23:35:12 <Bike> one of my favorite things is that fisher ws conservtive and meanwhile haldane was hella marxist
23:35:59 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
23:37:04 <oerjan> nooodl: well, they are very instructive comments if you can think laterally enough
23:38:01 -!- Ghoul_ has joined.
23:41:22 <tswett> Sure enough, FORTRAN looks not entirely unlike INTERCAL.
23:41:51 <Bike> eh, you think?
23:42:47 <tswett> Maybe COBOL looks more like INTERCAL.
23:43:51 <Bike> tht's certainly the intent
23:44:57 <fizzie> FORTRAN looks like Python: all that whitespace-sensitivity.
23:45:21 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Quit: ChatZilla [Firefox 25.0/20131025151332]).
23:47:18 -!- Deewiant has joined.
23:49:04 <oerjan> in some way intercal is the zeerust of programming languages.
23:49:37 <oerjan> made to be different, but still not escaping the general style of its contemporaries.
23:50:06 <oerjan> *totally escaping
23:50:24 <oerjan> of course it managed in many ways.
23:54:58 -!- nooodl has quit (Quit: Ik ga weg).
23:56:01 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined.
23:58:09 <Phantom__Hoover> a zeerust lang for the modern age would be nice
23:58:51 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
23:58:52 <Bike> like, a parody of python and ruby looking things?
←2013-11-10 2013-11-11 2013-11-12→ ↑2013 ↑all