00:09:55 -!- tertu has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 00:13:26 -!- tertu has joined. 00:13:26 -!- TodPunk has quit (Quit: This is me, signing off. Probably rebooting or something.). 00:13:55 -!- yorick has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:17:27 -!- nooodl_ has joined. 00:21:13 -!- muskrat has joined. 00:23:02 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:35:17 * oerjan notes int-e as the new person to shout at 00:56:24 -!- ais523 has quit. 00:59:10 -!- tertu has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 01:11:01 -!- Koen_ has joined. 01:12:04 -!- Koen_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:20:54 -!- tertu has joined. 01:44:05 anyone here know of a good online collaborative mind-mapping app that lets you make full on graphs (not just trees)? 01:51:51 quintopia: I don't know of any at all, sorry. What are you intending to make? 01:57:50 sorry, those are outlawed to prevent evil ai takeover. 02:12:55 -!- Oj742 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 02:27:17 zzo38: i want to map all of human knowledge down into learnable chunks 02:29:12 quintopia: That would be really difficult, I think. 02:34:06 zzo38: well, i'll have to hire some people to do it for me 02:34:13 but first, a tool! 02:36:30 Yes, a tool would help even if you are making something else. 02:37:09 how do you map down. usually i just map, without a particular direction 02:57:41 -!- tswett has left ("http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere."). 03:00:12 -!- muskrat_ has joined. 03:00:56 -!- muskrat has quit (Disconnected by services). 03:01:00 -!- muskrat_ has changed nick to muskrat. 03:17:27 -!- nooodl__ has joined. 03:21:09 -!- nooodl_ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 04:05:35 -!- nisstyre has quit (Quit: Leaving). 04:07:07 -!- tswett has joined. 04:07:17 Okay, okay, I've got it. 04:08:01 What have you got now? 04:09:03 We can claim that no set is bigger than the set of all natural numbers, as long as we deny that this fact entails that there's a mapping from the set of all natural numbers onto any arbitrary set. 04:09:57 How can you deny that? 04:10:47 Maybe it is possible, but in what mathematical models is that possible? 04:11:03 Every first-order theory that admits infinite models admits countable models. 04:11:42 Meaning there's a countable model of ZFC. And in a countable model of ZFC, all infinite sets are the same "size", in some sense, even though they have different cardinalities in the model. 04:11:54 Ah, OK, then. 04:15:35 Do you have example, please? 04:18:16 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 241 seconds). 04:29:54 What kind of sense is the same "size" even though they have different cardinalities 04:44:29 -!- nooodl__ has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 04:46:00 Can you explain it please? 04:48:58 it's rather trivial: you have a model of ZFC inside ZFC. by the inner logic of the model, the sets don't have the same cardinality because the model doesn't contain any bijection between them. but the whole model is a countable set in the outer ZFC, which therefore has such a bijection which is not inside the model. 04:50:02 so all the sets of the inner model are finite or countable from the viewpoint of the outer ZFC. 04:51:06 (technically the outer theory needs to be ZFC+"ZFC is consistent", i think) 04:51:51 (to be sure such an inner model exists) 04:52:18 they should use that axiom all the time in ZFC. 04:52:19 just in case. 04:53:02 elliott: But then it isn't really just plain ZFC, isn't it? 04:54:00 elliott: the advanced users (e.g. grothendieck) tend to use large cardinality axioms for this 04:54:34 What are "large cardinality axioms"? 04:54:38 but by godel's completeness theorem, just "ZFC is consistent" is what you need for a first-order model. 04:54:54 -!- Oj742 has joined. 04:55:07 zzo38: axioms that say that certain enormous cardinalities exist. this tends to imply thinks even stronger than consistency of ZFC. 04:55:37 i once went to a talk about that 04:55:48 i think lexande is an expert in all those things 04:56:28 e.g. strongly inaccessible cardinals is one kind, which iiuc imply that not only do you have models, but in the model sets are still represented as their set of elements in the outer theory. 04:57:32 the immigration & security checks to enter Republic of Korea from United States of America are nothing compared to the checks for entering Samsung Digital City from Republic of Korea 04:57:46 oerjan: yeah, just having set models of ZFC isn't very strong at all by the standards of large cardinal assumptions 04:57:48 kmc: are you in korea 04:57:55 (basically the sets smaller than the smallest inaccessible cardinal are a model in the most intuitive way) 04:57:58 indeed it's just about the weakest you'd consider 04:58:01 iirc there's some theorem about problems if you have "These axioms are consistent" as one of your axioms 04:58:06 but it certainly implies CON(ZFC) 04:58:14 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%B6b's_theorem 04:58:18 shachaf: I think I might be in Samsung 04:59:37 Sgeo: yes that's godel's second incompleteness theorem 05:00:10 they have effective control of this territory 05:00:32 Sgeo: yes, but "there are set models of ZFC" is an extra axiom on top of ZFC 05:00:51 -!- ^v has quit (Quit: http://i.imgur.com/MHuW96t.gif). 05:01:06 so once you have that, you can happily prove ZFC itself is consistent, though the extra axiom might not be 05:01:35 if you have inaccessible cardinals then you have lots of set models of ZFC, and CON^n(ZFC) for any reasonable n, etc 05:03:04 -!- Oj742 has quit (Quit: irc2go). 05:03:22 -!- ^v has joined. 05:04:45 and that's still pretty small by the standards of large cardinal properties 05:04:47 http://cantorsattic.info/Upper_attic 05:05:56 ah the kunen inconsistency, i recall seeing that mentioned. 05:06:40 is that list totally ordered :P 05:07:01 uh, well each of the entries on that list potentially defines a proper class of cardinals 05:07:11 but it's ordered by how big the smallest in the given class is 05:07:47 and yeah, every time you come up with one of these, you don't know if it's consistent 05:08:17 and you can only appeal to even larger cardinal assumptions for proof of its consistency, which isn't much comfort 05:09:15 and yeah, Reinhardt defined a large cardinal which turned out to be inconsistent with ZFC (though maybe not with ZF) 05:10:03 but anything on that list might be inconsistent 05:10:08 indeed ZFC itself might be inconsistent 05:10:38 I don't really like axiom of choice anyways, although maybe ZF + axiom of dependent choice restricted to pointed sets; does that work? 05:11:25 zzo38: cardinalities are a mess without choice 05:12:32 lexande: A mess in what way, and do some weaker axioms do anything with it? 05:12:42 without choice, cardinalities are not always comparable; this is equivalent. 05:13:15 you don't even have |A×A|=A without choice 05:13:42 Well, I am not so sure that they should be always comparable and all of that stuff anyways 05:13:50 yeah, what oerjan said 05:14:02 also does everybody know the story about that? 05:14:23 Which story? 05:14:34 i don't remember on the spot whether i know it 05:15:22 Even if you aren't using ZFC doesn't imply ZF + not axiom of choice, though, I think! 05:15:31 wait, is this that "an equivalence between two obviously X statements isn't interesting" story 05:16:12 Tarski proved that "|A×A|=|A| for all infinite sets A" was equivalent to the axiom of choice, and tried to publish this theorem in Comptes Rendus. 05:16:40 It was refereed by Frechet and Lebesgue. 05:16:42 Both wrote letters rejecting the article. Fréchet wrote that an implication between two well known truths is not a new result. And Lebesgue wrote that an implication between two false statements is of no interest. Tarski said that he never again submitted a paper to the Comptes Rendus. 05:17:24 Oh, yes. 05:18:47 clearly this is something that should happen more often. 05:20:47 Neither of those rejections seem valid to me since they aren't necessarily going to be known true or false; axiom of choice is not used in all systems anyways! So, such thing still can be a new result and can be of interest, I think. Even if they are false statements. 05:21:42 But I don't really agree with the axiom of choice anyways, nor with the other statement necessarily, either. 05:24:52 zzo38: of course they weren't valid, that's why the story has become an anecdote. 05:28:06 this happened at a time when the idea that there was only one set of truths in mathematics was coming crashing down, but neither reviewer had realized it, even though they had made inconsistent conclusions within the mess. 05:28:19 imo 05:28:21 . 05:30:02 zzo38: yes, thatsthejoke.jpg 05:31:11 `pastequotes zzo38 05:31:18 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.1654 05:32:54 kmc: still waiting on zzo38_ebooks 05:36:39 The joke is a JPEG picture? 05:36:54 `delquote 665 05:36:59 ​*poof* When you die in Canada, you die in real life. 05:40:06 `revert 05:40:10 Done. 05:40:32 oerjan: why 05:40:42 stupid question 05:41:32 because i don't like you deleting that 05:41:56 it is not a good quote for the quote list 05:42:56 Maybe there should be an option to hide quotations without renumbering the rest, and an option to tell it whether or not to include hidden quotations in a search. 05:48:03 -!- ^v has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:50:40 shachaf: yes it is 05:51:08 no, it's just quoting an internet comic strip 05:51:23 yeah, zzo38 quoting an internet comic strip 05:52:56 I think the quotation came from elsewhere and they quoted the comic strip, perhaps. 05:53:10 (But I do not remember.) 05:53:35 perhaps 05:56:26 http://cantorsattic.info/Upper_attic is some crazy shit 05:56:59 http://cantorsattic.info/Totally_indescribable#totally_indescribable lol? 05:57:09 -!- conehead has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 06:00:07 oklopol: they can't be described. 06:02:30 uhttp://cantorsattic.info/Subtle#Subtle_cardinal Weakly ineffable cardinals are limits of totally indescribable cardinals. [1] ([3] for proof) 06:02:36 -u 06:03:04 and of course huge cardinals is a specific term. 06:03:16 i'm fine with them being actually indescribable, but then i wonder what that proof looks like. 06:05:34 it's like, whoa, you know 06:06:52 "Whenever the context-sensitive language corresponding to the set of finite configurations cannot be described by a context-free or simpler grammar, the problem of recognizing words in the language is PSPACE-complete with respect to the lengths of these words (eg. [28])." 06:06:57 fun reading wolfram 06:08:46 this must be something about finite configurations whatever that is, because there are certainly context-sensitive languages in between context-free and PSPACE-complete 06:09:18 (e.g. anything theta(n^k) for k > 3) 06:10:15 also he says the language of the limit set of a CA can in general be Pi^0_1, which he then refers to as properly RE, and type 0. 06:10:38 well, assuming P != PSPACE, of course. 06:10:41 oerjan: this is about the limit sets of cellular automata, and [28] is a standard complexity theory reference 06:10:46 ok 06:11:32 this paper is like 60 pages, it contains one proof, phrased as "it seems X that because Y" 06:11:38 argh 06:11:46 "it seems that X because Y" 06:13:57 seemingly X swimmingly Y 06:14:05 -!- TodPunk has joined. 07:02:44 -!- realz has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 07:05:13 -!- ^v has joined. 07:05:35 -!- realz has joined. 07:05:37 -!- realz has quit (Changing host). 07:05:38 -!- realz has joined. 07:13:24 does JFIF support any codecs other than JPEG 07:13:32 JFIF / EXIF 07:17:52 "Formally, the Exif and JFIF standards are incompatible. This is because both specify that their particular application segment (APP0 for JFIF, APP1 for Exif) must be the first in the image file. In practice, many programs and digital cameras produce files with both application segments included. This will not affect the image decoding for most decoders, but poorly designed JFIF or Exif parsers may not recognise the file properly." 07:18:13 i like how standard-compliant is poorly designed 07:21:07 Postel's law and all that. 07:25:04 few things make me angrier than postel's law 07:26:03 really 07:28:50 yeah 07:29:13 the robot-toilet in Samsung Digital City has a warning not to smoke while you're sitting on it 07:31:30 -!- FreeFull has quit. 07:31:34 don't do it kmc 07:32:26 there are, like, six different reasons for me not to smoke while sitting on the robot toilet 07:32:32 the warning is just one of them 07:32:42 kmc: does it make you go postel 07:32:51 <3 07:34:00 kmc: how many of those allow you to sit on the robot toilet in the first place 07:35:59 -!- ^v has quit (Quit: http://i.imgur.com/MHuW96t.gif). 07:36:40 -!- tertu has quit (Quit: Leaving). 07:37:18 @ask ^v why do you keep badgering us 07:37:18 Consider it noted. 07:52:11 It is not only I who hates the layout syntax of Haskell and Python (at least in Haskell it can be disabled). So does Yin Wang (someone who also discussed the call/cc "Yin-Yang Puzzle", and is linked from Wikipedia for this purpose). 07:52:48 i do not hate haskell layout, but i do deny it my essence 07:52:52 zzo38: what's so bad about it, tho 07:57:22 kmc: Some of the things are those they describe in there. 07:58:11 One thing mentioned there is that a single keystroke can make the program wrong. 07:58:42 That is different from my own reason which is that it confuses the syntax a lot, unnecessarily. 07:59:13 For actual tree structures, with one record per line, layout syntax does work, but still isn't necessarily best way. 07:59:25 However, actual programs aren't quite like that, for various reasons, nor should they be. 07:59:50 a single keystroke can make the program wrong in a lot of other ways, too 08:00:13 kmc: Yes, that is true, I know; also, it isn't the reason I use anyways like I said. 08:01:22 Such a thing isn't really much of a problem with programming in Haskell, though, since you can use non-layout mode if you prefer. (You can even mix layout and non-layout in one file, although I do not recommend this.) 08:06:15 i mean, granted, "there are other ways to have bugs" is a shitty (and depressingly common) argument against a feature which prevents bugs 08:06:34 but my experience with Haskell is that bugs due to bad layout, which also pass the typechecker, are very rare 08:06:55 (but also, bugs that hit the typechecker aren't free, and it takes experience to recognize when one has occured due to bad layout) 08:07:05 a Haskell IDE which draws in ghostly { ; } for you would be really cool 08:07:37 but the point of layout is that it's visually obvious... 08:07:46 like, you might as well just use non-layout syntax then 08:08:12 Yes, due to the typechecker it does do this, which Python doesn't. 08:08:59 kmc: People have used that as an argument when trying to figure out what syntax for applicative-do should be like. 08:09:14 There have been various strange proposals. 08:10:05 elliott: well you could turn it on specifically when you're learning the layout rules, or when you hit a bug that you suspect is due to bad layout 08:10:24 it could even use a different bgcolor for every layout block!!!! like some scheme editors 08:10:30 I really don't like all that built-in do-notation and stuff and think macro-syntax should be used instead. 08:12:02 kmc: All of those IDE ideas have been discussed in Yin Wang's article, actually. (They also mentioned "syntax considered harmful"; I partially agree with that and think that macro-syntax is a better idea anyways, which also avoids some of these problems) 08:12:19 (They didn't mention macro-syntax, though. I did.) 08:12:56 zzo38: what do you think of Rust's macro system? 08:13:44 kmc: I have looked at the documentation but don't really know much about how good it is; I haven't paid a lot of attention to Rust in general so I don't really know a lot about that. 08:13:55 fair 'nuff 08:13:55 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 08:21:32 (And there are a few other Haskell programmers who prefer non-layout, too. But like I said it doesn't really matter much since using one or the other style doesn't prevent a module from being imported.) 08:25:17 I don't know if adding macro-syntax to the existing system would cause problems with layout syntax. If so, it could still be used in non-layout mode only, or possibly you could allow user-defined keywords to specify if they introduce a block, and if so check if there is a { after it whenever it occurs. 08:27:51 My (limited) understanding is that the parser emits { ; } block tokens based on indents/dedents, so I wouldn't think it'd impact macros 08:30:14 FireFly: it also emits }'s on syntax errors 08:31:43 that is, if ending a block in a spot can make it parse the next token, it will do so. 08:31:54 *an indentation block 08:36:26 Yes, I think it does that too 08:53:59 -!- carado has joined. 09:03:11 I thought of something, which is, if it can be made a kind of sequent calculus that can have not only multiple sequents above the line but also supports multiple sequents below the line? 09:07:09 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 09:17:30 zzo38: so a proof would be a DAG rather than a tree? 09:21:05 I am skeptical of macro systems where you aren't just running normal code at compile time 09:22:10 because sometimes you just need that, and macros are a feature of last resort, so do you really want a last resort macro system and another almost-last-resort system 09:25:03 I don't really think macros should be a feature of last resort. 09:25:18 kmc: Yes I suppose so, then a proof will be a DAG. 09:26:56 and I'm skeptical of this idea that macro systems absolutely need to enforce hygeine, as opposed to providing hygeine tools for the macro author 09:27:27 it seems like when I write a macro in C or Haskell or Rust, often as not I *do* want to do something tricky with binders 09:27:39 kmc: I, too; I think it should provide hygeine rather than enforce it 09:28:02 I'm sure I would feel differently if I programmed in Scheme but, well 09:28:37 I think part of why macros aren't a feature of last resort in Lisps is that you don't have a static type system anyway, so you don't lose as much by abstracting on the syntactic level rather than the semantic level 09:29:42 I do not think macros should ever be only a feature of last result. My opinion is that do-notation in Haskell should rather be defined as a macro in Haskell, instead of built-in, too. 09:29:59 zzo38: but abstracting on the semantic level is so much nicer 09:30:02 easier to reason about 09:30:13 Also consider Forth, where the compile-time and run-time are really the same thing, and macros are really just programs. 09:30:21 you can think more about what things are rather than how they're spelled 09:30:22 kmc: You can do both! 09:30:50 zzo38: yes, but I think the phase distinction is useful, even though it should be possible to nest (so you can compile code at runtime, and run code at "compile time") 09:30:52 (And many standard macros can be defined in a standard library so that you don't normally need to define your own, if this would help, too!) 09:31:10 the phase distinction is useful because it's where type checking happens 09:31:47 (I don't actually care if machine code is generated there or later; some languages with such a phase distinction for 'static' checking might still benefit greatly from a JIT implementation) 09:32:56 Yes, depending on the programming language in use, such a phase distinction would be very useful. 09:34:02 zzo38: your DAG proof idea is interesting; do you have an idea of a system which would be nice to express that way? 09:35:07 kmc: I don't actually know that. 09:36:35 also there has been discussion of a Template Haskell dialect where the type of a metaprogram includes the type of the program it produces 09:36:39 and I think MetaML works this way 09:37:07 but I think most of the practical examples of useful macros can't be typed, then 09:38:33 I have seen about Template Haskell with typed metaprograms; still is useful even to have typeless metaprograms too though. But being typed may also help in some ways, and may allow some additional kinds of macros to be made in a few cases. 09:38:59 how would it allow additional kinds of macros? 09:39:41 I am not sure, but depending on what other features are implemented there might be a possibility, or maybe not; I don't know for sure either way. 09:41:10 okay 09:41:15 if you can think of an example, let me know! 09:41:32 OK 09:42:16 Servo already has a number of metaprograms and they are mostly for converting specification formats (e.g. WebIDL) into executable code 09:42:23 none of which can be done within the Rust macro system :( 09:44:39 and that kind of thing won't admit typing metaprograms by their output 09:46:23 In that case then it does seem Rust macro system does have some problems. Perhaps just allowing macros to call executable Rust programs at compile-time, would that help at all? 09:56:04 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 09:57:26 -!- shikhin has joined. 10:00:57 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 25.0/20131025151332]). 10:18:06 -!- Slereah has joined. 10:22:50 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:23:14 -!- shikhin_ has joined. 10:24:28 -!- shikhin has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 10:31:16 -!- Taneb has joined. 10:32:24 -!- Taneb has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:32:30 -!- Taneb has joined. 10:32:46 Would I be correct to say matrix multiplication forms a category? 10:35:06 -!- nooodl has joined. 10:36:01 Where the category arrows are matrices and objects are dimensons 10:46:49 -!- Taneb has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:46:57 -!- Taneb has joined. 10:47:46 -!- Taneb has quit (Client Quit). 11:11:34 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 11:15:47 @tell Taneb neat, I suppose it does and it would be isomorphic to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category_of_vector_spaces , or equivalent in the sense of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equivalence_of_categories anyway 11:15:47 Consider it noted. 11:16:50 "For example, the dimension theorem for vector spaces says that the isomorphism classes in K-Vect correspond exactly to the cardinal numbers, and that K-Vect is equivalent to the subcategory of K-Vect which has as its objects the free vector spaces Kn, where n is any cardinal number." 11:20:46 you'll invent categories if you try to extend monoids to be "typed" to support matrix multiplication 11:21:03 i was going to say something about vector spaces of uncountably infinite dimension and aren't they super weird 11:21:58 but then I remembered that functions A→K for an uncountable field K are such a vector space and seem nice and reasonable (as much as any uncountable thing can be nice) 11:22:46 or even for a countably infinite field K 11:23:47 er no, it depends on the cardinality of A not K, I think? 11:23:50 * kmc <--- not a mathematician 11:25:59 -!- yorick has joined. 11:26:03 @tell zzo38 yes that would help; Rust already has a thing called "syntax extensions" which are invoked the same way as macros but can run arbitrary Rust code, unfortunately you can't define a new one except by editing the compiler 11:26:03 Consider it noted. 11:26:44 @tell zzo38 also there are other problems with macros such as, they can't be exported from a compilation unit, and the scoping / module exporting is different from everything else, but these are seen as bugs to be fixed 11:26:44 Consider it noted. 11:28:04 -!- Bike has joined. 11:29:13 hi Bike 11:30:22 -!- shikhin_ has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 11:52:17 -!- muskrat has quit (Quit: Leaving). 11:59:42 -!- Koen_ has joined. 12:18:23 -!- Taneb has joined. 12:20:22 -!- shikhin_ has joined. 12:21:38 kmc: yeah, I realised it in the context of their relation to set relation compositions 12:26:18 -!- shikhin_ has changed nick to shikhin. 12:29:10 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 12:39:41 -!- Ghoul_ has quit. 12:48:57 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Page closed). 12:52:55 -!- shikhin has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 13:02:16 -!- muskrat has joined. 13:06:50 -!- muskrat has quit (Client Quit). 13:07:08 -!- shikhin has joined. 13:09:44 -!- boily has joined. 13:10:11 -!- metasepia has joined. 13:13:19 -!- shikhin_ has joined. 13:15:57 -!- shikhin has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 13:16:08 -!- Deewiant has quit (Quit: Viivan loppu.). 13:20:48 -!- shikhin__ has joined. 13:22:14 -!- shikhin__ has changed nick to shikhin. 13:23:38 -!- shikhin_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 13:24:30 -!- shikhin_ has joined. 13:27:01 -!- shikhin has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 13:31:35 -!- shikhin__ has joined. 13:33:49 -!- ais523_ has joined. 13:33:59 -!- ais523_ has quit (Changing host). 13:33:59 -!- ais523_ has joined. 13:33:59 -!- ais523_ has quit (Changing host). 13:33:59 -!- ais523_ has joined. 13:34:19 -!- shikhin_ has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 13:35:11 -!- nooodl_ has joined. 13:38:45 -!- nooodl has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 13:45:58 good chmæric mœrning! 13:48:51 fizzie: what were we discussing concerning a possible zeta? I kinda had a long weekend (including, but notwithstanding, missile launches) 13:49:25 The list popular Adobe passwords. 13:50:03 oh! indeed. 13:51:17 It might not be as good a fit as, say, general word frequencies, which are the canonical Zipf's law example, but still. 13:55:01 everything is either zipf, branford, poisson, gamma, or uniform. outside of that, it's a weird curve invented by sadistic statistics teachers. 13:55:55 -!- shikhin_ has joined. 13:57:42 you know how algol 68 allows spaces in identifiers? 13:57:51 algol 60 also allows spaces in identifiers, but it's space-insensitive 13:57:58 so "foobar" and "foo bar" are the same identifier 13:58:16 if you want an identifier with the same name as a keyword, you add internal spaces to mark it as not being the keyword 13:58:33 -!- shikhin__ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 14:00:40 haha: Algol 60 defines the meanings of "true" and "false" as "obvious" 14:02:49 The simple days gone by. 14:02:52 what about file_not_found? 14:03:31 ~eval succ False 14:03:34 Error (1): 14:03:36 ~eval succ False 14:03:38 True 14:04:06 fungot: how did you become the Best Bot? how did you overcome your Error (1) phase? 14:04:07 boily: come on now, it is installed. ( require-extension ( srfi 1 13 14)) instead 14:04:18 fungot: a good tip. I'll keep that in mind. 14:04:18 boily: except in university oo projects page on toreun.org, but i 14:04:20 aha, algol 60 defines whitespace as not existing and freely usable anywhere 14:04:45 hmm... sorear's interesting interpretation of the INTERCAL manual may actually be correct 14:04:56 he interpreted it as permitting whitespace within keywords, which is something that simply hadn't occured to me at all 14:05:12 but at least one other language that was around at the time did that too... 14:06:00 PL EAS EDO N'T DO THAT! 14:08:05 int-e: hi! were you `relcommed already? did you appear during the weekend? 14:08:19 int-e: that doesn't do what you expect 14:08:31 the DO ends the PLEASE DON'T and then starts a new command 14:08:41 so you get "PLEASE DON'T" (a no-op), followed by "DO THAT" (not a no-op) 14:08:50 I guess you wanted it parsed all as one statement? 14:14:06 boily: There's a library on multivariate Bernoulli distributions that I believe gets some "real use" on 0-1 data. 14:14:16 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 14:15:31 ais523_: I did, but I didn't really think about it :) 14:15:47 boily: I guess I wasn't. 14:15:56 accidentally leaving a DO in a middle of a comment is an occupational hazard of INTERCAL 14:16:07 boily: I've been here before, but this time lambdabot dragged me here :) 14:16:19 leaving disguised DOs in code intentionally to produce funny error messages is one of the joys 14:16:28 (even Donald Knuth has been caught doing it on occasion) 14:17:23 my most notable intercal accomplishment is a rot13 filter (50 lines without using standard library.) ... and without comments :) 14:17:31 boily: (I believe there's also a related saying, something like "in the dark, all cats are Gaussian".) 14:17:48 oh, you're responsible for the rot13 in the pit? neat! 14:18:35 nope, that's a different one 14:18:40 ah right 14:18:56 I guess I'm now duty-bound to add yours too, if it's appropriately licensed 14:19:04 because the pit is meant to be a collection of all known INTERCAL programs 14:19:14 (except CADIE, she's too independent-minded and also under the wrong license) 14:20:14 -!- augur_ has changed nick to augur. 14:21:13 http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/myrot13.i (it's my code, do whatever you want with it. I'd put it in the public domain except that I can't.) 14:21:25 I'm at work 14:21:30 but I'll look at it later, if I remember 14:23:58 -!- augur has quit (Quit: Leaving...). 14:24:29 -!- Bike has joined. 14:27:34 -!- augur has joined. 14:28:40 In any case, the most impressive Intercal program I know about is Ørjan's unlambda interpretet ( http://home.nvg.org/~oerjan/esoteric/intercal/ ) 14:29:29 yeah, that was pretty mindblowing 14:29:38 oerjan isn't here right now, but he often hangs out in this channel 14:31:10 -!- mrhmouse has joined. 14:47:47 "He's as much of a fixture here as the channel's actual fixtures." 14:47:57 I guess technically speaking the channel has no actual fixtures. 14:48:33 should we invite chanserv in, so that it has one? 14:49:28 we should invite a lamp 14:50:19 A bot running on the Linux-Apache-MySQL-PHP platform? 14:50:50 yes. and while we're at it, a chandelier 14:52:32 A... C-Haskell-Apache-Netcat-Django-ELisp-INTERCAL-Erlang-R monstrosity? 14:53:44 now we have to write that 14:54:09 (also, one of my first duties at work was to write a program to perform work previously performed by an elisp CGI script that also involved manual intervention) 14:54:16 (I rewrote from scratch in Perl) 14:59:21 -!- ais523_ has quit (Quit: Page closed). 15:04:08 `? fixture 15:04:10 fixture? ¯\(°_o)/¯ 15:05:31 @wn fixture 15:05:32 *** "fixture" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)" 15:05:32 fixture 15:05:32 n 1: an object firmly fixed in place (especially in a household) 15:05:34 2: a regular patron; "an habitue of the racetrack"; "a bum who 15:05:36 is a Central Park fixture" [syn: {regular}, {habitue}, 15:05:38 [7 @more lines] 15:05:48 oerjan: an habitue of the racetrack. 15:06:25 (I think it's kind of like a hobbit.) 15:08:37 `words --help 15:08:40 Usage: words [-dhNo] [DATASETS...] [NUMBER_OF_WORDS] \ \ options: \ -l, --list list valid datasets \ -d, --debug debugging output \ -N, --dont-normalize don't normalize frequencies when combining \ multiple Markov models; this has the effect \ of making larger dataset 15:08:49 `words -l 15:08:50 valid datasets: --eng-1M --eng-all --eng-fiction --eng-gb --eng-us --french --german --hebrew --russian --spanish --irish --german-medical --bulgarian --catalan --swedish --brazilian --canadian-english-insane --manx --italian --ogerman --portuguese --polish --gaelic --finnish --norwegian --esolangs \ default: --eng-1M 15:08:57 `words --eng-1M 15:09:00 irrt 15:09:07 `words --eng-1M 10 15:09:10 corum clargoint chait loofefl slance exion penfut spassiol unct iistne 15:09:57 -!- Gregor has set topic: The channel of the chimæric hellos | The most corum, clargoint chait you could ever loofefl your slance in. | Magnus! | Koirammekokaan ei lennä? :( | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ or http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/. 15:13:05 weird stuff happens with the /töpic, and I still haven't translated «Koirammekokaan ei lennä?» yet. 15:15:40 You can find a discussion on that in the logs. 15:16:08 (If you weren't there at the time.) 15:18:36 I found «""Pystyisiköhän koirammekokaan siihen?"», which satisfies me. 15:18:51 s"\"\""\"" 15:25:15 -!- conehead has joined. 15:27:26 Does/will even our dog not fly? 15:27:32 -!- FreeFull has joined. 15:33:33 The translation I heard was "Not even our dog flies?" 15:37:02 -!- ski_ has changed nick to ski. 15:52:46 -!- nooodl_ has changed nick to nooodl. 15:55:20 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:55:47 -!- augur has joined. 15:59:40 -!- MindlessDrone has joined. 16:00:17 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 16:01:00 -!- Taneb has joined. 16:08:15 -!- yorick has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:11:58 -!- pregunton1233 has joined. 16:14:37 -!- muskrat has joined. 16:15:07 hi, is there any esoteric query language ? 16:15:55 I'm not aware of any. That could be interesting 16:17:17 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 16:20:15 i speak a little bit of English. If someone has heard about something like that, or better ways to google it....¿? 16:33:38 Besides SQL? 16:35:18 -!- nooodl_ has joined. 16:35:33 yeah 16:38:31 -!- nooodl has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 16:50:16 -!- shikhin_ has changed nick to shikhin. 16:51:28 -!- muskrat has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 16:54:16 -!- shikhin has changed nick to shikhin_implicit. 16:54:19 -!- olsner has joined. 16:54:23 -!- shikhin_implicit has changed nick to shikhin_EULA. 16:55:19 -!- Taneb has quit. 16:55:20 -!- jix has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:55:57 -!- shikhin_EULA has changed nick to shikhin. 17:04:03 -!- augur has joined. 17:12:35 -!- pregunton1233 has quit (Quit: Page closed). 17:16:32 kmc: so did you manage to prove x86 turing complete without registers? 17:16:45 "sure, just use the MMU!" 17:21:13 `thanks Bike 17:21:14 Thanks, Bike. Thike. 17:51:03 -!- ^v has joined. 17:53:00 mmu mmu mmu ♪ 17:54:07 `thanks mmu 17:54:08 Thanks, mmu. Thu. 17:54:57 `pastlog muu muu muu 17:55:28 No output. 17:55:31 -!- zzo38 has joined. 17:55:33 bin wéyons. 17:55:49 I can't beleive there aren't any «muu muu muu» in the logs. 17:56:01 well there are now 17:56:09 `pastlog muu 17:56:12 boily: I can believe it 17:56:20 2013-02-08.txt:08:48:53: !run printf '%s\n' 'Ääretön omahyväisyys miehet menivät edestakaisin yli maapallolla heidän pikku asioista, seesteinen niiden varmuus niiden imperiumi yli asiasta. On mahdollista, että infusoria mikroskoopilla tekemään samoin.' | hyphenate.fi 17:56:33 olsner: you heathen! 17:56:38 ion: you speak Finnish? 17:58:22 It's not terribly uncommon, here. 17:59:39 I kinda noticed a slight tendency towards North Germanic languages and Finno-Ugric ones in this fine chännel. 18:00:06 i am fond of english, yes 18:04:14 Are you a fondue of English, too? 18:04:31 wouldn't that require boiling me alive 18:04:48 fondues aren't usually boiling, are they? 18:04:55 you would need to be melted though 18:05:09 fondues are best when only gently simmering. 18:05:11 frankly i think i'm fine in my current collection of phases. 18:05:56 (♪ new quest ♪ find a nice place with shabushabu) 18:06:20 Bike: you need to break free of your matrix of solidity 18:07:23 boily: high leg shabu shabu 18:07:41 high leg??? 18:08:58 high leg flying shabu-shabu palace, yes. 18:10:16 * boily googles it, and dearly hopes that it's SFW. “I mean, high leg flying? What kind of place is that...” 18:11:02 it's SFW, as far as anime is SFW 18:11:21 ... 18:11:29 assuming you even come across what I thought your were referencing 18:12:12 * boily round-house fshtucks mrhmouse with a cast-iron fondue pot 18:13:19 mrhmouse: I think he may have been looking for a restaurant rather than an anime 18:13:21 no! I'm lactose intolerant! 18:14:37 olsner: I figured as much, but I felt the need to add to the absurdity of the conversation 18:15:37 ~yi 18:15:38 Your divination: "Sojourning" to "Radiance" 18:16:12 olsner: you shall support mrhmouse in his Quest of the Absurd, as he will Shine onto It and express due resplendescence. 18:17:24 in the Word of our Absurd Father, fnord 18:19:26 boily 18:19:34 i have to package your food 18:19:40 motivate me 18:19:42 In the word of fungot, fnord? 18:19:43 FireFly: _and_ a few other people.) cliki-bot was written by a 70's fnord with all that pasta sauce... then they'd use their stack, they are by default hygenic, but can never know which. 18:20:06 Sounds tricky 18:20:36 quintopia: snow has come to Québec City this last weekend, and should appear on Montréal's surface soon. are you going to let a poor Canadian starve in the cold? 18:22:36 FireFly: fungot, addled be Thy Brain, fnord 18:22:37 mrhmouse: yes, but nontheless you need to use exec with strings and 32/ 64 variants on ldc and some other stuff. 18:25:13 boily: sure. plenty of them. but not you. 18:25:41 -!- ^v has quit (Quit: http://i.imgur.com/MHuW96t.gif). 18:25:56 -!- ^v has joined. 18:25:58 <^v> il 18:26:12 <^v> sorry, hexchat derp 18:26:39 -!- Taneb has joined. 18:27:16 Hexchat, the official client of Hexham? 18:27:34 Aye 18:28:05 Tanello. 18:30:31 What is irssi the official client of? 18:30:43 Finlandia. 18:42:08 -!- prooftechnique has joined. 18:50:05 -!- conehead has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 18:52:18 Do you know how to make a sequent calculus where numbers that aren't divisible by four are theorems? I have done (while trying to do something else, which turns out to be equivalent). 18:53:26 why four 18:53:52 Bike: I could have used a different number but I used four. 18:54:03 why 18:54:26 No reason. 18:54:56 ?messages-loud 18:54:56 kmc said 7h 28m 52s ago: yes that would help; Rust already has a thing called "syntax extensions" which are invoked the same way as macros but can run arbitrary Rust code, unfortunately you can't 18:54:56 define a new one except by editing the compiler 18:54:56 kmc said 7h 28m 11s ago: also there are other problems with macros such as, they can't be exported from a compilation unit, and the scoping / module exporting is different from everything else, but 18:54:56 these are seen as bugs to be fixed 18:56:08 zzo38: in your calculus, is 0 divisible for four (strictly checking remainder)? 18:57:36 *by four. My mind is absent today. 18:58:16 mrhmouse: Yes; there is no way to prove zero in it. 18:58:40 What I have done is encode the rules for the subtraction game S(1,2,3), which is equivalent. 19:00:28 Do you have a link for the subtraction game? I'm not familiar with it and a search just turns up math resources for children. 19:00:56 Rules W1, W2, and W3 say that 1, 2, and 3 are axioms; you can win in one turn. Rules T1, T2, and T3 each have three sequents above the line for the three possible opponent's move after one of your moves. 19:01:32 mrhmouse: Did you try Wikipedia? Look at [[Nim]] 19:01:42 One of the subsections describes subtraction game. 19:04:19 The game isn't so difficult, but it makes the point of encoding in a sequent calculus in order to make theorems which are the numbers that aren't divisible by four. 19:18:29 in an alternative Universe, zzo38 would be a great glassperlenspiele player. 19:19:10 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Disconnected by services). 19:19:54 s/(s(?=s)|e\b)// 19:20:41 there's a great episode of The Real Hustle about the subtraction game 19:20:47 i've always wanted to try it 19:20:52 rip someone off big 19:33:18 Today for the first time I encountered a mormon 19:33:20 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 19:33:26 Trying to convert me 19:34:41 Oh, so did I the other day. 19:35:09 did it work 19:35:39 -!- nooodl has joined. 19:35:40 not sure 19:35:52 shachaf: do you feel mormon 19:35:59 they said i should go to mormon.org and it would make me really happy 19:36:03 i didn't go there until a few seconds ago 19:36:09 so i guess i did go there 19:36:20 did it work 19:36:28 i'm reasonably happy but i'm not sure whether it has to do with mormon.org 19:37:15 reasonably < really 19:37:20 false advertising 19:37:31 true but i didn't actually read the website 19:37:42 does it work if you wget mormon.org 19:37:47 what if you send HEAD instead of GET 19:38:04 hmm maybe they said www.mormon.org and i didn't use the www 19:38:10 i should've taken one of their cards 19:38:58 aitch tee tee pee colon slash slash doubleyou doubleyou doubleyou dot mormon dot org 19:39:04 slash robots dot text 19:39:14 dot tee ex tee 19:39:29 https://github.com/humans.txt 19:39:29 -!- nooodl_ has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 19:40:10 I was hoping for advice on how to visit the site, not just names of dudes and dudettes. 19:41:25 -!- prooftechnique has quit. 19:50:56 -!- Koen_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 19:51:14 -!- Koen_ has joined. 19:52:25 " 19:52:25 Selfish doesn't have any repositories you can view. 19:52:27 " 19:53:30 shachaf clearly went to the site the wrong way. try AOL keyword "mormon" 19:54:05 btw, I splat the languages from the Wisdom PDF into their own chapter. 19:54:50 wisdom probability density function ... nice concept :) 19:55:16 * boily gently scuttles away from int-e 19:56:07 -!- shikhin_ has joined. 19:56:35 aww 19:56:37 int-e: if you haven't read the PDF available in the /topic yet, may I interest you in doing so? the Experience will be Enlightening ↑ 19:57:03 I hate statistics. not as much as spiders, but I do. 19:57:26 statistics is like a spider: it has 8 legs and it crawls into your mouth while you're sleeping 19:57:30 otoh, I got nothing against snakes, except when related to a CS book. 19:57:45 have you read your TaPL today 19:57:55 what's a tapl? 19:57:55 omg i told someone to read TaPL and they did! 19:58:01 while sitting in a tent in rainy malaysia 19:58:07 types and programming languages 19:58:08 Types and Programmin' Languages 19:58:32 i have a "read" copy in front of me right now in fact, which i will proceed to ignore in favor of writing about plastic models of sulfur hexafluoride 19:58:34 kmc: were you the one in rainy malaysia, or was it the someone? 19:59:21 -!- shikhin has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 19:59:25 the someone 20:05:31 @ghc 20:05:31 Duplicate instance declarations 20:06:03 @ghc 20:06:03 Duplicate binding in parallel list comprehension 20:06:33 @ghc 20:06:34 My brain just exploded. 20:06:41 ~yi 20:06:41 Your divination: "Ground" to "Welling" 20:14:06 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 20:18:47 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 20:20:09 -!- conehead has joined. 20:21:34 -!- yorick has joined. 20:28:43 -!- Oj742 has joined. 20:29:02 `relcome Oj742 20:29:05 ​Oj742: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: . (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) 20:35:56 Hello 20:37:27 -!- ^v has quit (Quit: http://i.imgur.com/MHuW96t.gif). 20:37:40 Oj742: NICE JORB 20:37:48 (and nice to meet you finally) 20:39:49 ? 20:40:13 `relcome int-e 20:40:16 ​int-e: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: . (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) 20:44:13 quintopia: you know therm? 20:44:33 -!- ^v has joined. 20:45:10 boily: how could i not? 20:45:39 Oj742 has the second best warrior on the bfjoust hill right now 20:46:07 dat darn omnipotence... 20:46:38 ooooooooh! 20:47:28 of course, it was only third best until i made a slight change ... and the next change i make will put it back there... 20:47:52 -!- nisstyre has joined. 20:48:42 (i could easily beat omnipotence with space_hotel since omnipotence is hard-coded to beat space_hotel based on its decoy setup. shameless special-casing. but it doesn't bother me that much.) 20:49:28 bfjoist is something I have no talent for at all 20:49:48 Remember when werecatt appeared and suddenly dominated the hill 20:50:54 @tell werecatt when do you plan to dominate again? 20:50:54 Consider it noted. 20:51:49 `seen werecatt 20:51:54 not lately; try `seen werecatt ever 20:51:56 `seen werecatt ever 20:52:12 not that I remember 20:52:18 `seen david_werecatt ever 20:52:33 not that I remember 20:52:37 foiled. 20:52:38 :( 20:53:23 I think its spelled with only one 't' 20:53:27 boily: (x + y) * (a - b) 20:53:48 mrhmouse: oui? 20:54:03 f.. foiled. I'll show myself out 20:54:53 -!- doubleaykay has joined. 20:54:57 -!- doubleaykay has quit (Client Quit). 20:54:58 fungot: can you translate from mrhmouse to French? 20:54:58 boily: i like do better since it has a language called irp. this eventually made many people on scheme are you using? 20:55:09 oh, irp! 20:55:20 would someöne please translate mrhmouse for me? 20:56:01 (meanwhile, there is an intense liquorice taste in my mouth.) 20:56:08 "FOIL means First, Outside, Inside, Last." 20:56:30 I was making a terrible reference to the operation int-e is referring to 20:56:46 i.e. the order of expansion in expressions with parentheses. (the things one learns when hanging out on math channels...) 20:56:50 it's a mnemonic schoolchildren learn 20:57:01 boily: did you eat liquorice or do you e.g. have a brain disorder causing you to taste stuff? 20:57:02 not in Germany ;-) 20:57:12 not in French Canada. 20:57:18 not in America 20:57:24 it's taught here, but that makes no difference 20:57:49 olsner: a cow orker likes it, and very sneakily gave me some. I don't have brain disorders. I am sane. 20:58:29 (x + y) * (a - b) = (axe + aye) / e - (box + boy) / o 20:59:20 * boily duct tapes mrhmouse and int-e together 20:59:45 hmpf 20:59:51 boily, I like the phrase "cow orker" better than the actual phrase 21:00:03 int-e: cute. 21:00:12 boily, nice typo 21:00:49 olsner, Speaking of liquorice, do you like it? What about salty "sweets"? 21:00:50 it wasn't a typo, sadly. I wish I had created it, tho. hth. twh. tdnh. 21:01:05 boily, twh? tdnh? 21:01:15 Vorpal: don't you dare steer the conversation towards salmiakki and its brethren. 21:01:21 `? twh 21:01:23 twh would help, but is an hth derivative. hth. twh. hand. 21:01:24 `? tdnh 21:01:26 tdnh does not help 21:01:36 boily, what is salmiakki? 21:01:37 Vorpal: I don't eat the salty kind, only the sweet (and not very often) 21:01:46 olsner, phew 21:02:04 I'm not a fan of liquorice. Nor do I like the salty Swedish "sweets" 21:02:26 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salmiakki 21:02:42 I like terva leijona though 21:02:56 s/terva/nepeta/ 21:03:02 boily, oh right, saltlakrits, right 21:03:09 Yeah it is terrible stuff 21:03:41 “... with tar flavouring.” you guys are completely insane. 21:03:47 boily, no idea why anyone would like it, and I live in Sweden, where this stuff is somewhat common 21:04:16 boily, I can never remember which options to use to taste it 21:04:25 Is it -xf or -cf or what 21:04:47 Taneb, to do what? 21:04:57 tar 21:04:57 -xf is tar for extracting, -cf is for creation 21:05:05 boily: that's finnish btw, it's *them* guys that are insane 21:05:14 -cf archive.tar directory-to-tar 21:05:34 Vorpal may or may not have missed the joke 21:05:35 radar shows the joke has successfully been destroyed. good work, people. let's go home 21:05:44 olsner, oh, duh 21:05:46 right 21:06:23 maybe tar means molasses or something? 21:06:28 I'm not a fan of liquorice. Nor do I like the salty Swedish "sweets" 21:06:29 Are you guys dissing our stuffs? 21:06:30 when we want something sweet, nothing beats http://www.recettes.qc.ca/recette/tarte-au-sucre-1168 . four cups of brown sugar! 21:06:43 boily, Personally I'm quite fond of 70-90% chocolate though 21:06:45 fizzie: only unedible stuff. 21:06:50 More than 90% is a bit too much 21:06:55 boily: Incidentally, you can get tar-flavoured ice cream at a couple of restaurants here. 21:06:58 Vorpal: nothing less than 90% for me. 99% is the best. 21:07:08 i had to show some danes around my school a couple of years ago, they gave us various danish treats afterwards 21:07:08 I'm not sure why UNIX spells 'cat' forward and 'rat' backward. 21:07:25 intercultural fternooner exchange! 21:07:27 they were so uniformly horrible that i can only assume they were picked to fuck with the foreigners 21:07:42 it also spells 'cat' backward! 21:07:47 i like how there's an 'ar' separate from 'tar' 21:07:54 "ar, but specifically for tapes" 21:07:58 boily, And I like white chocolate at the other end of the spectrum (lets leave the discussion about whether that is chocolate for another time). 21:08:04 Not much in between though 21:08:20 I think ar is for, like, random-access archives 21:08:27 boily: http://www.ravintolaharald.fi/service.cntum?pageId=145900 "Sweet Endings" "HARALD’S TAR DELIGHT -- Homemade tar ice cream(whose secret recipe is closely guarded by Harald) served with pear compote, cinnamon-caramel sauce and crispy flatbread sticks." 21:08:32 boily: (It's a kind of terrible touristy place, but I think someone wrote a nice blog post about the ice cream once.) 21:08:35 Phantom_Hoover, I believe they claim it is an acquired taste 21:08:42 Phantom_Hoover, but I guess that could just be a code name 21:08:46 fizzie: is the tar ice cream any good? 21:09:05 * boily checks prices for a ticket to Finlandia... 21:09:07 olsner: Well, I mean, it's no chocolate. But it wasn't bad either. 21:09:11 nooodl: I believe I've even used 'tac' once or twice ... :) 21:09:22 olsner: http://susan-stepney.blogspot.fi/2011/06/tar-ice-cream.html there you go. 21:09:32 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:09:51 how does tac actually work 21:10:00 does it just store stdin in a buffer or what 21:10:37 Phantom_Hoover, I guess it could start from the last argument and then scan backwards, reading a chunk at a time 21:10:41 I believe the coreutils tac does something more clever if you give it a seekable file. 21:10:45 Phantom_Hoover: short of time travel, that's about the only thing it can do (on pipes) 21:10:47 Then reverse each chunk 21:10:53 But buffering is involved for pipes, sure. 21:10:57 Yeah assuming it is seakable 21:11:11 Phantom_Hoover: that's how toybox tac does it, at least 21:11:37 nortti, toybox is a pretty terrible thing though 21:11:39 there are rumors of a seekable pipe from an outer eldritch dimension, that can tac without buffering from the True End of All Inputs. 21:11:52 nortti, Like a half-arsed busybox clone 21:11:58 hmm? 21:12:09 Isn't toybox the one Android uses? 21:12:13 no 21:12:17 boily: I'd like to see a "tac | head" on that. 21:12:18 that is toolbox 21:12:25 (hm. I have to expect to shell out about two grands to get myself shipped over to the Suomen Tasavalta.) 21:12:28 the GNU 'tac' has a tac_seekable function, which hopefully does something clever :) 21:12:30 nortti, Oh okay, easy to confuse those 21:12:48 toybox is a busybox-like tools by the ex-maintainer of busybox, rob landley 21:12:50 boily: That sounds suspiciously expensive. Oh, I guess that's some Canadian fake money? 21:12:55 intended to be cleaner version 21:12:59 Ah 21:13:10 nortti, does it still use the kernel config system? 21:13:14 yes 21:13:23 why? 21:13:25 Fair enough, there are a lot of options I guess 21:13:37 fizzie: our money may be fake, but at least it's well-designed. and it has the Queen of England on it! 21:13:45 nortti, why it uses it or why I ask? 21:13:56 boily: Oh yes, I remember hearing it's very colorful. 21:14:07 Vorpal: why you asked 21:14:17 `seen david_werecat ever 21:14:18 nortti, not a lot of projects uses it. 21:14:19 fizzie: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_dollar 21:14:22 2013-01-18 02:52:09: Hello 21:14:24 true 21:14:32 damn that's a long time ago 21:14:35 busybox used it last time I built it, too 21:14:36 `seen aloril ever 21:14:39 I'm eager to see the new 5 and 10$! 21:14:46 nortti, the kernel, busybox, uclibc... That is about it that I know of 21:14:50 not that I remember 21:15:13 i've checked the logs btw, aloril_ has been here for over a decade and has never spoken once 21:15:18 boily: I think it "only" cost something like a thousand EUR (1.4 kCAD) for me to get to Portland and back, and that's like almost in Canada. 21:15:28 ("kCAD" is probably a CAD program.) 21:15:38 nortti, so how does toybox and busybox compare to each other from a feature completeness point of view? 21:15:48 busybox has a shit-ton more 21:15:49 Is toybox a drop-in replacement at this point? 21:15:52 Ah okay 21:15:54 not yet 21:15:55 Phantom_Hoover: nice. 21:16:14 nortti, ignoring weird stuff like a built in micro-webserver in busybox? 21:16:26 it still lacks shell 21:16:37 and df has yet to get '-h' 21:16:38 Eh, that is kind of major yeah 21:16:47 fizzie: I only checked Air Canada, which is far from being the best option out there. 21:16:55 nortti, what about color options to ls? I can't remember if busybox has that 21:17:04 a sec 21:17:18 Yeah it does 21:17:21 busybox has it, toybox does too 21:17:32 boily: Also I guess you can always mail yourself in a box? 21:17:32 good, that makes it so much easier to work with 21:17:33 * quintopia orks boily's cows 21:17:51 nortti, what about binary sizes when built for equal features? 21:18:06 hmm, no idea 21:18:17 anyone here ever use mpmath in python? 21:18:18 Eh well, I guess I'll keep an eye on it though 21:18:25 -!- prooftechnique has joined. 21:18:26 fizzie: I could. I quintopia'd a box of cookies, and I'm marginally heavier than that, so I have experience. 21:18:36 quintopia, sounds interesting, what does it do? 21:18:46 but for my current config busybox is 512kB and toybox is 136kB 21:18:56 fizzie: checking prices on hotwire cuts the amount by half. 21:19:05 Vorpal: arbitrary precision complex-valued math 21:19:24 quintopia, oh, so not MP as in multi *processor* 21:19:31 Not so interested any more, sorry 21:19:33 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 21:19:44 i like the idea of boily being only slightly heavier than a box of maple leaf cookies 21:19:54 psh, what's the point without quaternions 21:20:20 I should try to learn quaternions at some point 21:20:35 here let me teach you 21:20:42 Okay...? 21:20:56 Vorpal: I suggest you try it on some linux system you are comfortable hacking with. currently I'm running it on my main system and sometimes encounter stuff that blows up due to GNUisms 21:21:31 i²=j²=k²=ijk=-1 21:21:32 nortti, well I doubt I will ever switch from GNU Bash as my interactive shell. I'm just to used to it's features and quirks 21:21:35 now you know quaternions 21:21:48 quintopia, yeah that about covers it :P 21:21:51 ah. I'm also running non-toybox shell 21:22:05 because the current toybox shell is, to put it kindly, shit 21:22:09 nortti, and tools for that matter 21:22:12 (mksh, ftw) 21:22:24 nortti, I use weird non-standard options to tools out of convenience 21:22:29 ah 21:23:07 well, in that case, continue on with your gnu coreutils 21:23:10 nortti, when I look at map 1p grep I get scared. There is no -L for example for files without matches. Something I used like 5 minutes ago 21:23:21 s/map/man/ 21:23:51 oh, interesting. my grep manpage is from sbase 21:24:00 man 1p not man 1 21:24:03 or what do you mean 21:24:07 * nortti reminds itself to fix manpages sometime 21:24:10 nortti, anyway on a modern system, the extra bloat in gnu coreutils doesn't really matter 21:24:13 map map map ♪ 21:24:37 I mean that my grep(1)'s manpage is from suckless' sbase collection 21:24:46 I have 16 GB RAM. I'm not going to run out just because true has a --help and a --version! 21:24:53 heh, true 21:25:14 Also this computer has like 4.5 TB storage in total, though a bit of that is tied up into RAID 21:25:17 I, on the other hand, still have in active use a machine with 1MB of RAM 21:25:25 That is just the internal storage 21:25:44 I have 30GB HD, 20% used 21:25:46 -!- MindlessDrone has quit (Quit: MindlessDrone). 21:25:55 poll: should i take a class in electric circuits, or a class in microcontrollers 21:25:59 nortti, The least advanced system I have that i actually use is my RPi. Coreutils run fine there too with 512 MB RAM 21:26:00 every page held up by the help text for true is a page that isn't used caching all that data 21:26:35 olsner, XD 21:26:46 Bike: can you give me more info about the μC class, syllabus or list of materials or such 21:26:52 unless you're sufficiently lucky that the help text is in all separate pages that don't get loaded from disk (and don't have relocations, etc) 21:26:58 let me see. 21:27:14 -!- boily has quit (Quit: TRIPLE CHICKEN FAULT!). 21:27:16 -!- metasepia has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:27:18 μC programin' is extremely easy to pick up on your own, since it's now a huge hobby field with lots of resources for everyone including total tech beginners 21:27:47 and I think a lot of college μC classes have a "party like it's 1985" vibe 21:27:55 haha. 21:27:55 olsner, I get similar read speed "experience" with my 2x 1 TB in RAID 1 at home to my insane 250 GB Intel 520 SSD at work. Both are just too fast for me to notice. 21:27:59 programming weird chips in assembly because that's what we did back in the day, damnit 21:28:09 which... could be fun, but is mostly a slog ime 21:28:22 i'm thinking of switching to a track that would make me take both classes, so eh 21:28:27 ah, neat 21:28:38 Bike, electric circuits could be fun 21:28:45 ah hey, the syllabus is online. 21:28:59 olsner: don't most shells have true and false built in anyway? 21:29:16 ISAs, serial communication, writing efficient code, timing, async/interrupts, blablablabla 21:29:24 otoh there is a HUGE gap between hobby arduino stuff and the kind of EE you need to know if you want to design a cheap tiny robust power-efficient mass-producable device 21:29:27 "Discuss the central components of Microchip MIPS32 RISC microcontrollers" so that gives an idea of materials 21:29:42 is mips weird 1985? 21:29:43 olsner, anyway echo $(( $(du -b /bin/true) / 1024 )) 21:29:43 bash: 22880/bin/true / 1024 : division by 0 (error token is "/true / 1024 ") 21:29:48 That is funny 21:29:54 * Vorpal is confused 21:29:58 "Operate and control a basic robotic car" oh ho ho. 21:30:02 neh 21:30:03 meh* 21:30:24 True is pretty big though, 4 pages in total 21:30:26 well at least the MIPS architecture is simple and elegant and has free C compilers 21:30:28 "Required textbooks: None" i really like the EE department's style 21:30:43 27080 bytes here, excessive :/ 21:30:46 kmc, AVR is pretty common these days 21:31:01 int-e, 22880 for me 21:31:05 i dunno if the peripheral parts of the Microchip ones are nice or not 21:31:06 So somewhat less 21:31:10 Vorpal: for college classes? that's good 21:31:27 kmc, 4 pages? Yeah ;P 21:31:28 our infamous intro microcontrollers class used a custom board with an 80186 and a load of other chips on it 21:31:36 required materials... chip is from a local supplier i've liked so far, basic lights and switches... ooh, a stereo amp... bluetooth... robotics kit 21:31:38 4 pages what? 21:31:38 Vorpal: 22880 is more like 6 pages 21:31:41 kmc, I meant memory pages for /bin/true 21:32:05 I think we used the 80186 because they bought a barrel of them back in 1985 and were still using them up 21:32:12 looks like the compiler is this thing http://www.microchip.com/pagehandler/en_us/devtools/mplabxc/ 21:32:16 I think MIT uses the 8051? not sure tho 21:32:30 obviously i should write a rustc backend for my robocar 21:32:33 olsner, hm, I did du /bin/true, which is 512 byte blocks, which is 24. Divided by 2 is 12. Divided by 4 (For 4k) is... 3 actually 21:32:48 olsner, who is right? 21:32:55 80186 is obscure enough that most of the time when I googled for resources, I found only the website for the course I was taking :( 21:33:16 uh, damn. 21:33:20 Vorpal: I'm right, obviously 21:33:31 olsner, where is my math wrong then? 21:33:35 kmc, 80186? Is that like their second CPU? 21:33:36 maybe i should check the professor to make sure he's not the anti masonic guy 21:33:56 Vorpal: the assumption that du uses 512 byte blocks 21:34:09 int-e, pretty sure it does? I remember reading that some time ago 21:34:24 Oh wait 21:34:26 Vorpal: no, there was the 4004 and the 8008 and the 8080 and the 8086/8088 and maybe others 21:34:30 q Display values are in units of the first available SIZE from --block-size, and the DU_BLOCK_SIZE, BLOCK_SIZE and BLOCKSIZE environment variables. Otherwise, units default to 1024 bytes 21:34:30 (or 512 if POSIXLY_CORRECT is set). 21:34:30 ' 21:34:38 Right 21:34:44 first intel processor ever was for some japanese calculator 21:34:48 int-e, So I was correct under POSIX 21:35:17 the 80186 was an attempt to turn the 8086 into a microcontroller but not really in the modern sense, it still needs external ROM and RAM and loads of other stuff 21:35:25 Vorpal: but that's a small excuse for not noting that 512*24 is quite far from 22880 :) 21:35:35 http://wolverine.caltech.edu/eecs51/kits/kit51ins.htm 21:35:36 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 21:35:40 "This course covers a wide spectrum of software testing techniques for traditional and object-oriented languages" 21:35:47 int-e, I'm better at math with letters than math with actual digits? Kay? 21:36:01 Vorpal: ok. 21:36:25 "Software Testing: A Craftsman’s Approach" they've infilitrated the textbooks! 21:36:33 :( 21:36:46 Bike, eeww. That sounds like the opposite of quickcheck 21:37:03 "The biggest change comes in the growing prominence and acceptance of Agile Programming." 21:37:11 Which is of course the best testing technology that I know of currently 21:37:27 of course 21:37:42 well, anyway, i'm not taking that class, just thought that was amusing. 21:38:02 blatantly gendered language? in my CS textbook? it's more likely than you think 21:38:13 Our DSP assembly course had what I think was quite a "90s" vibe when it came to hardware it ran on (a TI TMS320C54x devkit, some fancy 56K audio box with knobs, and some AD SHARC thing). 21:38:20 oh hey, i didn't even notice, you're right. 21:38:48 oh ... gender ... "middle person attack" sounds awful, imho. 21:39:24 kmc, gendered? How do you mean? 21:39:32 "craftsman" 21:40:05 I generally don't accept it when men say "but it's just TOO HARD to come up with better words" 21:40:16 Hm 21:40:18 crafter 21:40:29 craftsperson? 21:40:40 mega craftinator z 21:40:49 crafty cat 21:41:06 anyway the uses of "craftsman" in startupland are meaningless pompous marketing fluff so they should probably be excised alltogether 21:41:15 Craftsman is a common word though. While I would agree that it would be a bad *new* word to be created. I don't really care about existing words. 21:41:18 "Software Testing: Mega Craftinator Z's Approach" has a certain ring to it. 21:41:29 kmc, that I can agree on though 21:41:37 i'm happy being an engineer, being an engineer is awesome, I don't need to pretend I'm a rockstar or a painter or a craftsman instead 21:41:47 Quite 21:42:09 kmc, Though being a Rockstar painter crafting engineer would be awesome 21:42:15 why be any of those things when you can be MEGA CRAFTINATOR Z? 21:42:42 mega craftinator z is formed when rockstar blue, painter red, crafter yellow, and engineer pink combine, that's why 21:42:42 Vorpal, int-e: I think it's very hard for men to empathize with what it's like to be a woman in programming and receive tiny (usually unintentional) signals every day that say you are abnormal and you aren't a Real Programmer etc 21:42:55 this is my opinion after listening to lots of women describe their experiences in the field 21:43:00 kmc, hm 21:43:07 Bike: Which one of them forms the head? 21:43:07 obviously, not all women feel this way 21:43:19 kmc, Craftman has nothing to do with programming though, as you just said. 21:43:21 but if you can fix the language to make some people more welcome, without really hurting anyone else, why not do it? 21:43:29 Vorpal: we were talking about the title of a software book.......... 21:43:36 kmc, but should we change the word "human" just because it contains "man"? 21:43:37 and more generally about the term's (mis)use in programming 21:44:02 yeah it's a bit silly to say "well I don't care" when you're included in "craftsman" 21:44:02 like, obviously. 21:44:02 fizzie: i haven't taken my class in megacontrollers yet, couldn't tell you :( 21:44:03 Swedish has the same issue, "människa" = human "män" = men 21:44:05 Vorpal: maybe eventually? but we have to start somewhere 21:44:17 Vorpal: it's a bit of a slippery slope fallacy you're making 21:44:23 I suggest "humoid", just because "humoid resources" sounds good. 21:44:30 Vorpal: you might want to read http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~evans/cs655/readings/purity.html 21:44:44 haha i was just going to link that. 21:45:10 kmc, no, I'm very much against creating *new* words like "craftman". But I also find it silly to keep changing an existing language unless there is more than a few people who complain about it 21:45:13 -!- mrhmouse has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 21:45:19 there are TONS of people who complain about this 21:45:22 you aren't listening to them 21:45:23 incidentally, 'human' is etymologically not related to 'man'. 21:45:28 kmc, also I read that 21:45:47 Bike, oh? Interesting. How does it work out then? 21:46:03 'human' is from 'homo', 'man' is from germanic 'mann' or something 21:46:08 Hm 21:46:09 Vorpal: it's amazing how people will claim that biased language doesn't matter and yet fight really hard to keep it 21:46:12 part of english's general half french thing. 21:46:12 why do you care so much 21:46:25 if some people dislike this word, and by your own admission it's silly to care, then just let them win 21:46:54 Vorpal: and what did you think of the essay? 21:47:27 I read it a couple of years ago. Yes it has a point. But, kmc, I think creating neologisms all over the place just lead to unnecessary and pointless confusion. 21:47:40 what's your basis for claiming it's confusing, at all? 21:47:52 who will be confused if I say "craftsperson" or "maker" or "artisan" or any of 10 other synonyms instead of "crafstman" 21:48:25 Developer makes me think of photography or hair 21:48:25 kmc, try replacing "man" with "person" or similar in all words like "craftsman" for a week in all speech and writing and see if people don't get confused 21:48:42 kmc, "artisan" or "maker" would work yes 21:48:46 Vorpal: I have been doing this for years 21:48:47 craftsperson would not 21:48:50 Vorpal: not a single person has ever been confused 21:48:54 kmc, interesting. Hm 21:49:02 Well then I might be wrong I guess. 21:49:07 another interesting etymology fact: 21:49:19 latin "habere", "to have", is cognate to english "give", not english "have" 21:49:35 -!- sebbu has joined. 21:49:35 it's cool how I had this same exact argument with the JavascriptMVC people like a year ago and they gave me all of the standard bingo-card excuses not to change it and then they finally fixed it after a whole year 21:49:38 latin "capere", "to take", *is* cognate to english "have". 21:49:44 nooodl, that sounds implausible. How does that work out? 21:49:56 ...the DM's telling me off for derailing the adventure and we haven't actually started yet 21:50:10 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host). 21:50:10 -!- sebbu has joined. 21:50:24 kmc, I don't think I will take any personal action regarding it though, I simply don't care enough about the issue. 21:50:30 Vorpal: then you're just a dick 21:50:34 what's the cost to you 21:51:12 kmc, Having to keep remembering to do it all the time, scan the phrases ahead and so on. 21:51:22 "habere" and "give" are from PIE *gʰabʰ- 21:51:27 "capere" and "have" from *keh₂p- 21:51:59 also cool: "Since there is no common Indo-European root for a transitive possessive verb have (notice that Latin "habeo" is not related to English "have"), Proto-Indo-European probably lacked the have structure. Instead, the third person forms of be were used, with the possessor in dative case, cf. Latin mihi est / sunt, literally to me is / are." 21:51:59 you know what's a lot harder than having to think before you speak? being anything other than a middle-class white man in programming 21:52:02 consider this a small tax 21:52:08 towards a better, more fair world 21:52:56 i find that thinking before I speak has all kinds of benefits.... 21:53:01 kmc, and I personally don't know anyone who is bothered by it, neither male nor female. I know a woman who I remember saying pretty much "whatever" in a discussion about this. 21:53:13 wow ONE WOMAN ONE TIME TOLD ME IT WAS OK 21:53:18 pack it up, feminism is solved 21:53:30 kmc, oh come on, strawmans aren't cool 21:53:42 sorry "strawpersons" 21:53:43 Vorpal: perhaps your attitude towards these things has some selection effect on the people you know? 21:54:06 I know lots of people who do care 21:54:15 kmc, maybe? *Shrug*. I'm nice towards people of either gender I hope. But I couldn't give a damn about the language itself. 21:54:16 Vorpal: it's not really a straw argument, given that "i haven't checked but nobody seems to care so stop caring" was your actual argument. 21:54:24 perhaps the fact that I don't dismiss their experiences just for being different of mine has something to do with the fact that they continue to talk to me 21:54:49 Bike, I didn't tell kmc to stop caring. I just said I didn't care myself because nobody around me in "real life" has seemed to care at all. 21:54:54 yes 21:54:56 and I said that makes you a jerk 21:55:00 if you're ok with that, we can move on 21:55:26 Vorpal: i don't think it's reasonable to assume that they'd tell you if they did care 21:55:50 kmc, I think that saying that makes me a jerk is a bit much. I make a point of *not* laughing at sexist jokes nor of course telling them. Even in an all male company. 21:55:54 Stuff like that. 21:56:01 they might expect you to respond defensively, as you did to kmc 21:56:19 wow you make a point of not telling sexist jokes even when you could get away with it 21:56:22 gold star for you 21:56:23 and yes there are obviously bigger jerks and this is not the most important issue in the world 21:56:34 what is wrong with "craftsman" if you use it to mean "craftsperson" 21:56:37 lexande, not to an actual woman saying that no. 21:56:41 That would carry some weight. 21:56:49 sigh 21:56:51 -!- Sprocklem has joined. 21:57:01 nooodl, Well argue that with kmc. I'm out. I need to sleep 21:57:08 'night Vorpal 21:57:18 nooodl, see above? 21:57:34 * nooodl logreads 21:57:42 Vorpal: obviously if you want citations of women who care it's easy to find many. also sexism hurts men too. 21:58:40 nooodl: the crux of it is … I think it's very hard for men to empathize with what it's like to be a woman in programming and receive tiny (usually unintentional) signals every day that say you are abnormal and you aren't a Real Programmer etc 22:00:13 Vorpal: anyway if you sometimes slip up and say something like "craftsman" it's not a huge deal, but you should avoid it if you notice yourself doing it, and accept it graciously when people point out the mistake 22:00:19 right 22:00:56 I think people get defensive because there's an implication that if you call someone out on behavior you are saying they're a horrible malicious sexist as a personality trait 22:01:00 that's not how it works 22:01:13 sexism is malware, we all get some of it from growing up in a patriarchal society 22:01:16 we help each other get rid of it 22:01:23 whoa 22:01:35 didn't expect to see this discussion here 22:01:46 hi quintopia 22:02:10 the thing with "man" to me is, in certain contexts, like "craftsman", it's plain obvious that people aren't REALLY talking about just male people 22:02:11 * kmc is still working on how to make the preceding point without tone-policing 22:02:21 nooodl: intent isn't everything 22:02:30 nooodl: did you read http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~evans/cs655/readings/purity.html 22:03:29 kmc: was about to link to that 22:03:48 I already did when I had the same conversation with Vorpal that I'm about to have with nooodl 22:03:55 except I might fuck off instead 22:04:00 now i'm wondering where i saw it first. maybe it was in his book on translation 22:04:10 I got it from shachaf, I'm pretty sure 22:04:38 it's not, like, a perfect analogy, but it goes a long way imo 22:04:42 i kind of agree with nooodl here. i understand the stewardess/steward -> flight attendant thing since in that case, the terms are definitively gendered, but "man" meant "human" before it meant "male human", and i don't mind saying "craftsmanship" or "workmanship" if i'm not around someone who hasn't explicitly told me it offends them 22:04:59 it doesn't really matter what a word meant thousands of years ago 22:05:06 it matters what thoughts and feelings it produces in someone hearing it today 22:05:21 i don't mind making sexist jokes unless i'm around someone who's told me it offends them 22:05:34 kmc: do we s/MITM/PITM/ 22:05:46 heh 22:05:56 what's wrong with malcolm?? 22:06:02 most folk i know don't get a feeling of offense from the word "craftsmanship". if i knew someone who did, i wouldn't. same with a lot of other things. 22:06:11 quintopia: I went over that with Vorpal too 22:06:14 carol is the attacker. clearly a great step forward for feminism. 22:06:26 it's specific to these words though, because the connotation in them isn't obvious 22:06:31 quintopia: how do you know what other people feel? 22:06:32 other words it is 22:06:36 also I really hate the word "offended" because people totally lose their shit whenever it comes up 22:06:44 let's talk about, are you HURTING people 22:06:47 what the heck do you mean it's not obvious, it says "man" right there 22:06:48 whether or not you intended to 22:06:49 kmc: yeah "offended" is dumb 22:06:51 maybe only a little 22:06:55 yes, maybe it would be better if all women magically stopped noticing gendered language 22:07:00 that's some irrelevant sci fi scenario 22:07:07 it's not their responsibility to fix the system 22:07:09 fine. use that word. s/offense/hurt/ 22:07:25 -!- Oj742 has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 22:07:58 i know what people feel because they are my friends and i pay attention to them and care about them 22:08:27 and i can see that my friends are happy when i say they have displayed quality craftsmanship regardless of gender 22:08:44 it's fine that your friends don't mind 22:08:52 imo this shouldn't be a matter of audience 22:09:07 there are lots of things I personally don't mind, which I still wouldn't subject random people to 22:09:32 i don't interact with random people too much. i'm more careful around strangers. 22:09:34 just, look, can't you step back and say, ok, this is a small thing and i'm going to say i "don't care" about it while arguing, maybe i can just step back and consider why other people are arguing versus why i'm arguing 22:09:53 maybe they have friends who it bothers? whooooo knooooows 22:09:55 i mean. i have friends i can call "assholes" jokingly, but that doesn't make that an alright word to use anywhere! 22:09:57 hi 22:10:04 hi shachaf. what is up. 22:10:24 people mentioned me, hi people 22:10:41 asshole has a clear negative connotation. i am against using words with clear negative connotations without good reason around strangers 22:10:45 hello shachaf 22:11:10 hi shachaf what do 22:11:26 anyway it's not like this is some sort of purity question where you're a terrible person if you ever use language that could be construed as non-gender-neutral 22:12:40 maybe since women are only 15% of programmers and only 1.5% of open source contributors and leave the field at more than twice the rate of men, we could try being extra careful and welcoming even if a lot of them don't really care 22:12:44 just a thought 22:12:45 doesn't cost much 22:13:20 and certainly some instances of gendered language (e.g. MITM) are much harder to get rid of than others 22:13:25 yep 22:13:31 I still say MITM 22:13:38 I don't claim to be perfect or anything 22:13:40 but in general it's desirable to use less gendered language 22:13:41 mouse in the middle :) 22:13:42 i kind of want "man" to mean what it once did again. i want to live in a world where everyone you respect is "ser" regardless of gender. at the very least i want to gender-neutralize language without having to add more syllables. 22:13:53 well you fucking don't, deal with it. 22:14:10 i want to deal with it by moving towards that 22:14:14 tell me how 22:14:26 give up on the man thing. it's pointless. nobody cares about syllable counting. 22:14:28 but you're not willing to add one more syllable every time you say "craftsmen" (which is, how often?) 22:14:34 quintopia: do you always use 'they' instead of 'he' or 'she'? 22:15:20 if i don't know gender yeah. except when specifying a hypothetical person in formal writing, in which case i alternate between the two gendered pronouns 22:15:35 do journals etc. not accept singular "they"? 22:15:48 * quintopia shrugs 22:15:50 quintopia: 'they'ing everybody would move you towards the world you describe 22:16:13 i'm going to be honest here: it took me two entire paragraphs of http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~evans/cs655/readings/purity.html before i "got it" 22:16:22 (regardless of whether you know gender) 22:16:23 i do my formal writing for the example of high school students, and singular they is not accepted grammar yet. it's a survival adaptation for my job. 22:16:30 that's fair, I think 22:16:58 nooodl: tangent: where are you from? 22:17:10 belgium. native dutch speaker 22:17:38 quintopia: singular they has a long history in english, goddammit 22:17:40 i've been wondering how much of "getting it" is based on being american, is all. 22:17:52 lexande: some people prefer specific pronouns and request they be used. i would be moving away from the spirit of wanting the world i describe if i imposed pronouns on people that didn't want them 22:18:12 lexande: but they don't have a long history in style books 22:18:16 quintopia: have you ever met someone who objected to being described as "they"? 22:19:13 it probably was. i sorta glossed over the "-white" words thinking "oh this must be some obscure english thing i've never heard about". now that i carefully look at the list it's really obvious... 22:19:18 lexande: upon asking, i have never met someone who specifically requested, and i am trying to always ask 22:19:31 *requested "they" 22:19:57 i have met people whose preferred pronoun is 'they' 22:20:10 but also people with lots of other preferred pronouns, but they were all okay with being called 'they' 22:20:19 and this is much easier than keeping track of neologisms 22:21:31 honestly i think i'd feel awkward using neologism pronouns for someone... never had to, though 22:21:57 i know someone whose preferred pronoun is 'it' 22:22:15 i used to know someone who preferred 'it' too, it was definitely awkward for me 22:22:20 obviously using them is the respectful thing to do and isn't a huge effort to get used to using pronoun x, but it'd never stop sounding weird to me 22:22:23 referring to them that way around people who don't know them risks causing actual confusion, i think 22:22:32 but they are fine with 'they' so that's easy 22:22:42 yeah 'it' is a very bad idea... 22:22:46 it's a bit awkward to use 'it' as a third person pronoun 22:23:28 the irony of the "women would tell me if they care!" response is that women who speak up are often ignored or worse, and it's only when a man says the same thing that people take it seriously 22:23:33 (to me, mainly because "it's" is so commonly used.) 22:23:52 i'm not sure what to do about the fact that most of the thinking i'm familiar with on this issue is quite anglocentric 22:24:58 -!- jix has joined. 22:25:13 in english it's actually feasible to use 'they' for everything, but in some other languages it's a right mess 22:25:33 imo everyone switch to finnish 22:25:40 _o/ 22:25:40 | 22:25:41 /< 22:25:52 lexande, that's what they want you to think 22:25:59 yeah i have to use "he" in dutch :/ 22:26:17 also in french plural "they" is gendered!! an even bigger mess 22:26:19 We have our fair share of gendered words, but at least the third-person singular pronoun problem is fixed. 22:26:56 E.g. lawyer is "lakimies" (lit. lawman) and I don't know if there's really a good, accepted alternative. 22:27:14 Possibly "juristi", but that's kinda loanwordy. 22:27:25 ok i laughed at the image of fizzie making that expression, thanks myndzi 22:27:29 (Also might have slight differences in meaning? I don't know, I'm no lawman.) 22:27:49 are women lawyers also referred to as "lakimies"? 22:28:14 Yes. 22:29:20 ok 22:29:31 do many of them mind? 22:31:20 the weird thing about this william satire thing is that the examples actually work...the usages of "white" he cites /are/ race-inclusive. if i lived in his world, i would probably be won over by some of his arguments. 22:31:22 I only know that a nonzero fraction do. But I'm not aware of much of a movement to get rid of that particular term, for some reason. 22:32:06 Apparently "juristi" *is* being used increasingly as the replacement. 22:32:13 quintopia: same tangent: where are you from? 22:32:25 quintopia: are you white by any chance? 22:32:55 u.s. and yes 22:33:02 it's easy for white men to claim (and even believe) that we "don't see race and gender" because we don't need to for survival... the whole western world is already set up to see us as the default kind of human being 22:33:21 cf. Vorpal 22:33:42 kmc: i recall that referring to Carla del Ponte (sometime prosecutor of the UN ICTY and ICTR) as "la procureuse" instead of "le procureur" in french was considered a statement in the direction of feminism 22:34:06 heh 22:34:17 which is the opposite of how it would be seen in english 22:34:59 but that's fine... cultural context influences language connotations, film at 11 22:35:05 at least, i remember someone remarking on this irony 22:35:29 I like how every curse word in Spanish varies between mild G-rated teasing and horribly offensive depending on where you are in Latin America 22:35:42 -!- nooodl_ has joined. 22:37:07 yeah, ok, i've thought about it, and i'm just going to say i have no coherent response to "yeah i'm ok with calling bosses white and workers black". 22:37:37 German is going the same way, unfortunately (I had to stop a while to realise that most of my objections to gender-neutral language are actually based on the mockery they make of it in German (Putting an emphasis on distinguishing between male and female forms first, and then torturing the grammar by combining "Foo" and "Fooin" into "FooInnen", that'd be something like "waiterEsses" in english ... horrible.).) 22:38:03 * kmc -> breakfast buffet 22:38:05 ttyl all 22:38:14 breakfast??? 22:38:15 Dear god what time zone are you in 22:38:19 kmc: i can't claim that i don't see race and gender. sometimes i must work to ignore it. 22:38:22 @localtime kmc 22:38:23 Local time for kmc is Mon Nov 11 14:38:22 2013 22:38:23 i think he's in japan? 22:38:26 korea 22:38:29 shit 22:38:35 I also found a quote by Hofstadter here, http://people.mills.edu/spertus/Gender/pap/node21.html (look for "This is not progress") which rings true to me. 22:38:38 lambdabot: You got it wrong! 22:38:41 (I think.) 22:38:47 my VPS is still in America/Los_Angeles 22:38:49 see, this is why i can't get a bouncer. it's dishonest 22:38:57 what if i was on the moon. nobody would know 22:39:02 -!- nooodl has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 22:39:09 `run TZ=Asia/Seoul date 22:39:11 Tue Nov 12 07:39:10 KST 2013 22:39:26 Bike: You should get a separate bouncer located in every place you might ever be. 22:40:00 ah i knew i had a reason for wanting a network of satellites 22:40:05 int-e: nice page 22:40:14 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Heading west for pizza). 22:40:26 -!- Taneb has joined. 22:40:31 -!- Taneb has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:40:37 "It is unknown in what way Man used to make love, when he was a primitive savage millions of years ago" lol 22:40:55 -!- Taneb has joined. 22:41:00 -!- Taneb has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:43:35 i wonder if that's old enough to be "make love" as in romancin', or fucking 22:44:17 fucking++ 22:44:36 @karma fucking 22:44:36 fucking has a karma of 1 22:44:41 You must've been the first. 22:44:48 (Or else there's a delicate balance.) 22:45:11 (Or did that thing pick up postfix increment/decrement? I forget.) 22:46:32 @karma c 22:46:33 c has a karma of 1 22:46:36 fizzie: it didn't :) 22:46:51 isn't that specialcased 22:48:15 int-e: It did. 22:48:22 You run lambdabot! You should know better! 22:48:24 There are so many karma subsystems, it's hard to keep track. 22:48:42 As far as I'm concerned you should get rid of the special case. 22:48:47 And also make me an admin. 22:48:56 @karma c/c 22:48:56 c/c has a karma of 582 22:50:02 shachaf shall be appointed Karma Czar 22:50:03 shachaf: I misparsed the question. I thought it was about handling foo++ as a post-increment ... looking again, I don't know why. 22:50:22 @karma foo 22:50:22 foo has a karma of 3 22:50:23 fizzie: ha ha. 22:50:35 @karma+ c 22:50:35 c's karma raised to 2. 22:50:40 int-e: It was. 22:51:22 shachaf: post-fix- != post-. 22:51:45 but never mind. 22:52:18 Oh. 22:52:50 apparently, mentioning C++ no longer reduces one's karma (it did that for a while when karma was new) :) 22:53:21 -!- nisstyre has quit (Quit: Leaving). 22:54:04 -!- Bike has quit (Quit: Reconnecting). 22:54:17 -!- Bike has joined. 22:54:53 int-e: you had to give away your own karma to ++ somebody? 22:55:12 int-e: No, that was java. 22:55:14 @karma+ java 22:55:14 shachaf's karma lowered to 65. 22:55:16 nooodl_: no, C++ was special-cased :) 22:55:20 That should be removed. 22:55:45 @karma- java 22:55:45 java's karma lowered to -5. 22:55:49 @karma+ java 22:55:49 nooodl_'s karma lowered to -1. 22:55:55 I might change it to PHP ;-) 22:55:58 -!- nooodl_ has changed nick to nooodl. 22:56:02 nice _ shield there 22:56:07 nooodl_ ++ 22:56:13 err, nooodl_++ 22:56:14 * shachaf sighs. 22:56:18 @karma nooodl_ 22:56:18 nooodl_ has a karma of 0 22:56:25 @karma nooodl 22:56:25 You have a karma of 1 22:56:28 how'd THAT happen 22:56:32 y'all are totally ruining the integrity of the karma system. 22:56:39 Bike: hahaha 22:57:25 back in my day, when snobol had a karma of twelve it fucking MEANT something 22:57:41 huh, there's a "'s karma unchanged at " message ... 22:58:37 fungot: At least you track karma by making good old-fashioned subjective value judgements and not just picking up on keywords. 22:58:37 fizzie: and its very easily done. 22:58:54 fungot: Well, be fair, not every bot is so AI-complete. 22:58:54 fizzie: it shouldn't contain at all, actually. it produces com files for pete's sake!!! fnord style transformation sequence fnord 22:59:04 oh fungot how i love thee 22:59:05 Phantom_Hoover: change that to a struct foo*, it becomes the new seed 22:59:28 Good advice. 22:59:55 was fungot just talking about a magical girl whose transformation sequence involves com files 22:59:55 Bike: what do you mean 23:00:03 i mean, fungot, that that rules 23:00:03 Bike: fnord ( 0x0001) at fnord 23:00:47 I think that's some kind of an error message. 23:00:57 fungot: yeah, maybe all the characters could be virus themed. i like it. you a good writer, ever considered submitting something to a studio? 23:00:57 Bike: like i said, 23:01:08 but I think it belongs into the "this will never happen" category. 23:01:46 fungot: i missed it. 23:01:46 Bike: maybe i don't understand how to do any sort of type containing a type: in haskell, 23:01:53 -!- monotone has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:01:56 i don't either, man. 23:02:07 And that's, of course, crucial if you want to submit some writing. 23:02:51 fungot has high standards. a rigorous, type-theoretical approach to the animes. 23:02:57 -!- oerjan has joined. 23:03:31 -!- monotone has joined. 23:03:51 fungot, helloooooo 23:04:10 Bike: shh it's writing an anime 23:04:14 -!- ^v has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 23:04:16 -!- FireFly has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 23:04:23 !bfjoust slowsuicide [(+-)*100-.] 23:04:25 -!- ^v has joined. 23:04:27 ​Score for int-e_slowsuicide: 8.3 23:05:09 fungot: you should write an irc bot 23:05:09 shachaf: yes, but i was asking the question for long descriptions, the program will do is just use string-uninterned-symbol, but you can still have make-queue take an argument, and returns false 23:05:36 fungot: you should buy a boat 23:05:36 shachaf: and it'll all be happy to use scheme to make you do a hot-code update in scheme 23:06:00 fungot: why are you so obsessed with programming!! there are other things in life 23:06:01 shachaf: i thought that the joke might be that your particular statement needs a and some others 23:09:08 fun, I expected more than 4 draws (and fewer wins) :) 23:10:10 fungot: fungot fungot fungot 23:10:10 shachaf: ( runnin ( define x ( tag-pointer dpy ' a)) 23:10:23 fungot more like schemegot 23:11:15 -!- FireFly has joined. 23:12:40 Blame #scheme for that. 23:12:48 fizzie: fungot should balance its parens at least?? 23:12:49 nooodl: pretty soon i'm going to give you access to the char-sets. 23:13:07 int-e: you'd probably do better with a straight up vibrator. 23:13:07 fungot: i'm honoured 23:13:07 nooodl: i've overlooked the syntax-closure-transformer in your question" :) swap them around. bah. many languages have both " ocaml interaction" and " association"? how do i use srfi-9 records in gambit? 23:13:46 !bfjoust very slow suicide (-)*127(-+)*8000- 23:13:49 ​Score for quintopia_very: 22.0 23:14:01 lul 23:14:04 good enough 23:14:16 if you keep slowing the suicide does it become life (and higher scores) 23:14:45 -!- S1 has joined. 23:15:13 yeah that never gets a chance to suicide. it either wins or is legitimately beaten before it clears its flag. except against simple locks 23:15:21 http://sprunge.us/CKIi huh 23:16:03 !bfjoust slowsuicide (+-)*50001 23:16:07 ​Score for int-e_slowsuicide: 9.1 23:16:10 jesus 23:16:51 !bfjoust slowsuicide (+.+-)*50001 23:16:53 ​Score for int-e_slowsuicide: 10.9 23:16:56 ok, I'll stop there :) 23:17:15 int-e: vibrating between 0 and 1 is strictly better than vibrating between -128 and -127 23:17:34 because there are many things on the hill which have no counter-vibration 23:18:00 wait what does . do in bfjoust? 23:18:11 nop 23:18:14 ah 23:18:15 waste a cycle 23:18:23 +. is a real suicide :) 23:18:30 -!- S1 has changed nick to S2. 23:18:31 (if noone interferes) 23:18:36 -!- S2 has changed nick to S1. 23:18:53 int-e: not really. (+.)*128 would be 23:19:05 but then, so would be (+)*128 23:19:13 (+.+-)*50001 23:19:16 `addquote everything is either zipf, branford, poisson, gamma, or uniform. outside of that, it's a weird curve invented by sadistic statistics teachers. 23:19:21 1130) everything is either zipf, branford, poisson, gamma, or uniform. outside of that, it's a weird curve invented by sadistic statistics teachers. 23:19:42 oh good quote 23:19:48 zipf is power law right 23:19:52 yeah 23:19:53 i don't know branford 23:19:55 also: but cauchy :( 23:20:04 quintopia: in the 128th interation, the flag should be zero for two consequutive cycles, or am I missing something? 23:20:05 also: exponential 23:20:05 "nobody uses cauchy you sadist" 23:20:24 (wow, my spelling is awful.) 23:20:30 int-e: you're missing the fact that "end of program" is the same as "forever nop" 23:20:50 wow i have just enough tabs open for chrome to draw icons for every other tab 23:21:01 nooodl: too many 23:21:02 i guess it's like a rounding thing 23:21:17 http://zem.fi/egostats/ updated after a long while with all those Oj742 programs. 23:21:27 PING 1384212085640 23:21:37 great, now i have to ask boily what branford is 23:21:45 some obscure joke probably 23:22:05 fizzie: thanks! looks like we might be seeing the first uptick in bf activity since january. good thing it waited for me to get home. 23:22:07 quintopia: there's enough instructions for 200k cycles anyway. (I'm not disputing that (+)*128 is a suicide) 23:22:28 -!- S1 has left. 23:22:53 Bike: I think maybe Benford? 23:23:11 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benford%27s_law 23:23:45 Also missing: good old von Mises-Fisher. 23:23:59 quintopia: So let me restate ... the code (+.+-)*50001, left alone, should set the flag to zero for two consecutive cycles (when executing +. when the flag is -1), and lose, after 4*128-2 steps. Is that right? 23:24:03 fizzie: wow ALL_IN only wins on even tape lengths. it must have >> in its clear loop. 23:24:40 Though maybe it was more about "appears in real world" and not "used by people" listing. 23:25:00 int-e: is it 4*? check egojsout. it prints cycle numbers. 23:25:28 "A continuous probability distribution on the circle" neat 23:25:43 -!- S1 has joined. 23:25:59 oh, i see, when you add -fisher it's an n-sphere instead. good going, fisher 23:26:02 -!- S1 has left. 23:26:55 In any case, the most impressive Intercal program I know about is Ørjan's unlambda interpretet ( http://home.nvg.org/~oerjan/esoteric/intercal/ ) <-- :)) 23:27:06 quintopia: yes it is. 23:27:58 kk 23:28:38 quintopia: Some of those tape heat-map plots seem to have become confused, will have to check them out later. 23:28:51 oerjan: i hadn't seen that one either. it's impressive! 23:29:27 the "DO CONTINUATIONS DREAM OF MONADIC SHEEP" lines are very intercal and i'm going to believe that they magically do useful stuff 23:30:52 -!- avid has left. 23:31:00 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:31:34 -!- augur has joined. 23:33:21 interesting that space_hotel gets grouped with preparation 23:33:24 Also missing: good old von Mises-Fisher. <-- clearly those were sadistic stats teachers. especially fisher, did you know he supported eugenics? 23:35:12 one of my favorite things is that fisher ws conservtive and meanwhile haldane was hella marxist 23:35:59 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 23:37:04 nooodl: well, they are very instructive comments if you can think laterally enough 23:38:01 -!- Ghoul_ has joined. 23:41:22 Sure enough, FORTRAN looks not entirely unlike INTERCAL. 23:41:51 eh, you think? 23:42:47 Maybe COBOL looks more like INTERCAL. 23:43:51 tht's certainly the intent 23:44:57 FORTRAN looks like Python: all that whitespace-sensitivity. 23:45:21 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 25.0/20131025151332]). 23:47:18 -!- Deewiant has joined. 23:49:04 in some way intercal is the zeerust of programming languages. 23:49:37 made to be different, but still not escaping the general style of its contemporaries. 23:50:06 *totally escaping 23:50:24 of course it managed in many ways. 23:54:58 -!- nooodl has quit (Quit: Ik ga weg). 23:56:01 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined. 23:58:09 a zeerust lang for the modern age would be nice 23:58:51 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 23:58:52 like, a parody of python and ruby looking things?