←2013-11-13 2013-11-14 2013-11-15→ ↑2013 ↑all
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01:06:34 <kmc> I'm drinking "Lotte DMZ" brand water http://web.tradekorea.com/upload_file2/product/163/P00346163/cbe9caa5_8547efa1_1f04_4180_8529_8e7d0eb186a1.jpg
01:06:38 <kmc> which is actually bottled from inside the DMZ apparently
01:27:17 <^v> * Disconnected (Invalid argument)
01:27:17 <^v> * Disconnected (Connection reset by peer)
01:27:17 <^v> * Disconnected (Remote host closed socket)
01:27:53 <^v> oh esper
01:28:44 <kmc> what's an esper
01:28:53 <ion> An IRC network
01:29:03 <^v> a network that hit the fan
01:31:45 <^v> ffs
01:31:54 <^v> i think their entire net went down
01:47:31 <Bike> i'm uh, talking on esper right now.
01:48:14 <Bike> oh, there was a netsplit 26 minutes ago.
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02:16:35 <Sgeo> http://www.theonion.com/articles/breaking-intruders-detected-in-zone-17,34541/
02:16:44 <Sgeo> Is this parodying a specific game, or just a genre of games in general?
02:17:10 <kmc> Area Man Confused By Onion Article
02:17:18 <kmc> Sgeo: did you see the Onion is ending print publication :(
02:17:27 <kmc> what will I read if I'm ever at a Quiznos in Boulder, CO again :(
02:18:04 <Sgeo> kmc: yeah. I think I linked an Onion article poking fun at it
02:22:36 <Sgeo> What is it called when you have code that's working, but as far as you can tell it shouldn't be working, and you're trying to figure out why it's working?
02:23:10 <kmc> hell
02:31:36 <shachaf> codebugging
02:32:19 <kmc> rebugging
02:32:21 <quintopia> kmc: SO IT BEGINS
02:32:29 <quintopia> how long until the other papers end print
02:33:00 <kmc> it's been going on for a while
02:33:09 <quintopia> i know
02:33:14 <quintopia> but i didn't care
02:33:18 <quintopia> and still don't really :P
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02:33:27 <shachaf> Hmm, Google News finds Onion articles, but adds "(satire)". :-(
02:35:17 <kmc> what do they add for links to the daily mail
02:35:26 <quintopia> (not Poe)
02:39:23 <ion> D-:
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03:07:18 <ion> Even the ghosts know http://youtu.be/dXVNvfPetxU?t=2m37s
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04:40:04 <Sgeo> I designed a norn to drop dead instantly if he ever thought about eating elevators. He was stillborn.
04:40:23 <Bike> i take back everything mean i've ever said or thought about you sgeo, that rules
04:40:53 <coppro> norn?
04:41:38 <Sgeo> http://static2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20050101192132/creatures/images/5/59/Chichi.png
04:42:02 <coppro> that does not answer my question
04:42:16 <Bike> `addquote <Sgeo> I designed a norn to drop dead instantly if he ever thought about eating elevators. He was stillborn.
04:42:20 <HackEgo> 1132) <Sgeo> I designed a norn to drop dead instantly if he ever thought about eating elevators. He was stillborn.
04:42:48 <Sgeo> A species, the main one the player is supposed to care for, in the Artificial Life series Creatures
04:43:29 <oklopol> and Sgeo hates those bastards
04:44:58 <coppro> ah ok
04:47:26 <Sgeo> I used to try to make paradises for Norns that arrived in my worlds from other people. Can you believe I actually poured antibacterial agents on incoming norns???
04:48:08 <Sgeo> (There's actually a reason to not do that besides 'not doing that sounds potentially mean' --- travelling to another person's world doesn't transfer bacteria)
05:00:13 <oklopol> did you know that?
05:00:25 <Sgeo> Not when I did it, but I learned/realized it later
05:00:56 <Sgeo> When I first started playing Creatures, I saw a norn hitting a toy, but I didn't realize it was a toy. I thought it was another creature, so I slapped the norn
05:01:19 <oklopol> and that's when it all started
05:01:40 <Sgeo> I've put norn brains in the useless body of the toy
05:01:42 <oklopol> didn't take long till you would hit them even if they didn't hit toys
05:01:58 <oklopol> :D
05:02:22 <oklopol> what happens
05:02:34 <Sgeo> They sit there doing nothing and eventually starve to death
05:02:45 <oklopol> also how often do norns think of eating elevators
05:02:52 <Sgeo> Surprisingly often
05:03:10 <Sgeo> http://creatures.wikia.com/wiki/EE_Syndrome
05:03:37 <oklopol> i can't stop laughing
05:03:43 <Sgeo> Hmm... that's.. not what I had in mind
05:03:49 <Sgeo> I hadn't actually heard of that before now
05:03:57 <Sgeo> Just the same old tired "eat elevator" jokes
05:05:54 <oklopol> "eat elevator" jokes are "old" and "tired"?
05:06:00 <oklopol> i can assure you they are new to me
05:06:55 <Sgeo> http://www.creaturesvillage.com/helen/symptoms.php?ID=613
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05:13:18 <Sgeo> `olist 930 no one did this yet? really?
05:13:20 <HackEgo> olist 930 no one did this yet? really?: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly
05:13:27 <shachaf> No. Not really.
05:13:52 <shachaf> (In particular I did this yet.)
05:14:04 <Sgeo> I don't see that in the logs of 13 or 14
05:14:04 <shachaf> `rm bin/oohlist
05:14:07 <HackEgo> No output.
05:15:36 <Sgeo> ooh
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06:57:45 <shachaf> Bike: wait which one was your definition of continuity again
06:59:34 <Bike> the shitty one, or the one i copied from wikipedia?
07:00:15 <kmc> can't it be both
07:00:27 <Bike> the wikipedia one wasn't shitty.
07:00:40 <shachaf> the wikipedia one
07:00:45 <shachaf> was it with neighborhoods
07:01:37 <Bike> "f is continuous at some point x ∈ X if and only if for any neighborhood V of f(x), there is a neighborhood U of x such that f(U) ⊆ V"
07:01:49 <shachaf> where neighborhood isn't required to be open?
07:01:55 <shachaf> why not
07:02:54 <Bike> preimages of closed sets have to be closed anyway i guess
07:06:53 <shachaf> so i was reading about vaguely-hinting-at-pointless things in a book and now i want to figure out why the idea of a neighborhood even makes sense
07:07:13 <shachaf> when you define a thing with an arbitrary lattice rather than a set of open sets
07:07:42 <shachaf> (well, not arbitrary. a frame.)
07:08:43 <shachaf> anyway now the definition of continuity is obvious, it's just a structure-preserving thing such that knowing f(x) : Y doesn't give you any new information you couldn't get from x : X
07:09:02 <shachaf> and it goes backwards because, like, that's totally sensible and stuff
07:10:15 <shachaf> on the other hand neighborhoods aren't sensible anymore so help
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07:32:47 <oerjan> @tell oklopol <oklopol> however, presumably two unlimited cells are turing complete <-- i sincerely doubt it, my construction for three cells is related to two cell minsky but needs the extra cell to get around the limited flow control.
07:32:47 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
07:34:42 <shachaf> yoerjan
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07:35:14 <oerjan> @tell oklopol and even then i had to discover conway's collatz functions to get relatively satisfactory control flow in _that_. basically problem is (1) whenever you exit a loop one cell _must_ be 0 (2) you cannot enter a loop based on a cell being zero, without extra cells.
07:35:14 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
07:35:53 <oerjan> yachaf
07:36:46 <oerjan> @tell myname no way 1 cell is enough and even 2 seems impossible, see my @tells to oklopol
07:36:46 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
07:37:40 <oerjan> @tell myname also, stop having the same first three letters as myndzi twh
07:37:40 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
07:38:06 <shachaf> so you're an expert in homology too right
07:38:44 <shachaf> someone was talking about something but i can't remember what
07:38:49 <shachaf> i'll just go to sleep
07:38:49 <oerjan> if using it a bit in one published article counts
07:39:02 <oerjan> shachaf: was it me?
07:39:19 * oerjan recalls blathering about algebraic topology the other day
07:39:27 <shachaf> oerjan: please fix infinite redirect in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homology_theory thx twh
07:40:11 <oerjan> what infinite redirect it works fine here
07:40:22 <oerjan> oh hm
07:41:35 <oerjan> someone merged it out of existence.
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07:45:23 <oerjan> shachaf: DONE
07:45:34 <fizzie> oerjan: "Using it a bit in one published article" is like the *definition* of "expert".
07:45:45 <oerjan> fizzie: THOUGHT SO
07:45:50 <shachaf> oerjan: i still don't know what a homology theory is :'(
07:46:10 <shachaf> plz fix https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eilenberg%E2%80%93Steenrod_axioms to make sense or something
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07:48:50 <oerjan> shachaf: SORRY, LOOKS COMPLETELY CLEAR TO ME
07:49:38 <oerjan> (read a textbook?)
07:50:39 <oerjan> shachaf: it's a completely general setting, you basically need to learn the concreter versions to know why it's interesting?
07:52:03 <fizzie> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ham_sandwich_theorem nice article picture there
07:54:07 <oerjan> very relevant
07:59:10 <oerjan> shachaf: i think singular homology is like the basic version. (my published use used Alexander-(Spanier-)Čech homology which works in general compact hausdorff spaces or something)
08:07:54 * kmc wonders if lexande highlights on "ham sandwich"
08:09:53 <shachaf> is there a vegetarian version of the theorem
08:10:01 <kmc> seitan sandwich
08:11:14 <oerjan> argh carpentry
08:11:35 <shachaf> arp entry
08:15:28 <kmc> what are you carpentering?
08:16:22 <oerjan> i'm not, the neighbor is
08:17:00 <oerjan> a clear infringement of my human rights to silence
08:19:21 <oklopol> put on some abba
08:19:46 <kmc> have some loud sex
08:21:10 <oklopol> oerjan: oh cool maybe someone should prove that brainfuck with two cells is not universal
08:21:42 <oerjan> hm
08:23:55 <oklopol> say,for brainfuck with k cells, we say the language of a program is the set of numbers n such that (n,0,0,...,0) (where we have k-1 zeroes) eventually halts
08:24:25 <oklopol> from what k on is there a bf program with re-complete language?
08:24:36 <oerjan> definitely k <= 3
08:24:45 <oklopol> okay, just wanted to check i formalized this sensibly
08:24:58 <oerjan> assuming you can do reencoding of n before starting.
08:25:04 <oklopol> ?
08:25:14 <oerjan> or wait
08:25:17 <oklopol> what does that mean
08:25:28 <oerjan> no, you can do that inside bf with 3 cells too.
08:25:50 <oklopol> re-complete with respect to just general 1-1 reductions by turing machines, say
08:26:11 <oklopol> so okay, k <= 3.
08:26:17 <oklopol> what's it for k = 1?
08:26:31 <oerjan> oklopol: just that since the method depends on converting via fractran, you want an original n encoded as 3*2^n or something equivalently handleable. but you can do that conversion inside bf.
08:26:44 <oklopol> for re-completeness, what does that matter
08:26:58 <oerjan> it doesn't.
08:27:31 <oklopol> i guess it matters if you want some sensible set of (unary) languages i guess
08:27:50 <oklopol> i'm definitely interested in what the exact set is for unary
08:27:53 <oerjan> for k=1 you cannot use >< at all (at best they wrap around to the same cell), so you have a balanced bf program with one cell, which is basically a linear loop at most
08:27:58 <oerjan> (i think)
08:27:59 <oklopol> is it just regular?
08:28:26 <oklopol> hmm
08:28:58 <oklopol> yeah okay err
08:29:09 <oklopol> a loop without inner loops
08:29:14 <oerjan> oh hm well
08:29:19 <oklopol> will either increment of decrement
08:29:28 <oerjan> if you have a loop, then you either never halt it it, or halt with 0.
08:29:31 <oerjan> *-it
08:29:32 <oklopol> if it increments, then we're in trouble
08:29:35 <oklopol> yes
08:29:50 <oerjan> so all depends on the first loop.
08:30:15 <oklopol> yes
08:30:16 <oerjan> before it, you can do some +-constant
08:30:33 <oerjan> or wait
08:30:44 <oklopol> actually i guess all depends on what happens before we first exit a []?
08:31:08 <oerjan> right, i just realized that's not necessarily the same ] in all cases
08:31:13 <oklopol> oh.
08:31:50 <oerjan> [-[-[-]]] e.g.
08:32:08 <oklopol> true
08:32:21 <oklopol> so there are finitely many states which you can enter, depending on the number
08:32:38 <oklopol> (the states after exitting some [])
08:32:47 <oklopol> (state being program counter value)
08:33:08 <oklopol> and at that point your counter is 0
08:33:11 <oerjan> if you have ]+], that loop will never halt.
08:33:16 <oerjan> and similar
08:33:35 <oerjan> well, if it's entered at all
08:33:54 <lifthrasiir> do you all assume that ++[--->+<] never halts?
08:34:13 <oerjan> lifthrasiir: we're dealing with a single cell right now
08:34:19 <lexande> kmc: i don't, but maybe i should
08:34:21 <oerjan> no <>
08:34:25 <oklopol> we should probably specify whether we can go under 0
08:34:29 <lifthrasiir> oh wait, a single cell?
08:34:30 <oklopol> might matter
08:34:41 <oerjan> lifthrasiir: also, it is unbounded, so no wrapping
08:35:21 <oerjan> lifthrasiir: we were just trying to find out exactly what can be the halting condition of a single cell bf program
08:35:30 <oklopol> so err
08:36:06 <oklopol> we encounter the first ] depending solely on n up to a threshold, right
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08:36:27 <oklopol> like we might encounter different ] first, depending on which loops are skipped, but if n is big, then we'll necessarily go inside all.
08:36:41 <oklopol> when we meet the first ], i guess we're done?
08:37:01 <oerjan> hm seems so, the rest is just tracing the result from a 0
08:37:06 <oklopol> because you'll be in that loop, and what happens depends only on n (might look at parity if you can go under 0)
08:37:16 <oklopol> yeah
08:37:35 <oklopol> so i think you get finite languages or languages with finite complement if you can't go under 0
08:37:52 <oerjan> um i was assuming unbounded negative too...
08:37:59 <oklopol> then err
08:38:51 <oklopol> maybe you then get something like n = a + bm for some m, modulo getting to choose first k values arbitrarily
08:39:06 <lifthrasiir> well, first assume that (x) translates to x +s when x>0, x -s when x<0, or nothing when x=0. and {X} code {Y} means that if X holds for the initial state then after code runs Y holds for the current state (or may enter an infinite loop). then {cell=x} (n) {cell=x+n}, {cell=x} [(n)] {sign(cell)+sign(n)=0 and (n=0 or cell%n=0)}.
08:39:49 <oklopol> (big enough n will necessarily bump into the first ] in the program, and from that on you either halt or don't, on that it depends whether you get the arithmetic sequence a + bm. finitely many values of n might behave differently.)
08:39:59 <oerjan> and no, we don't just get that. we get modulo conditions, e.g. [---] halts on n == 0 (mod 3)
08:40:10 <lifthrasiir> oerjan, and n >= 0.
08:40:18 <oklopol> so a = 0 and b = 3 in n = a + bm
08:40:23 <oerjan> (sorry if you already said that, i got disconnected for a moment)
08:40:40 <oklopol> i gave a conjecture about the case where you can go negative, with a proof sketch
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08:41:04 <oklopol> i don't know what lifthrasiir is saying
08:41:17 <lifthrasiir> [---] halts on n >= 0 and n == 0 (mod 3).
08:41:24 <lifthrasiir> (since the cell is unbounded)
08:41:48 <lifthrasiir> or, are you asking for the {cell=x} ... things?
08:41:48 <oklopol> so a = 0 and b = 3 in n = a + bm
08:42:13 <oklopol> (m goes over naturals)
08:42:23 <oklopol> lifthrasiir: i don't know what you proved
08:42:39 <lifthrasiir> oklopol, no, I didn't prove anything, I'm just trying to formalize things a bit
08:42:42 <oklopol> okay
08:42:45 <lifthrasiir> and stuck
08:43:34 <oklopol> okay
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08:44:41 <oklopol> oerjan: big enough n will necessarily bump into the first ] in the program, and from that on you either halt or don't, depending on whether n is in the arithmetic sequence of things that go to 0. you take that arithmetic sequence in the language if the program halts from that point, with counter value 0. finitely many values of n might behave differently.
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08:45:16 <oklopol> "depending on whether n is in the arithmetic sequence of things that go to 0" which you get from looking at how many times the first innermost loop increments
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08:45:52 <oklopol> i don't know what the "modulo finitely many values" means though
08:46:06 <oklopol> but at least this would already prove that the language is trivial anyway, in the sense of formal language theory
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08:48:19 <oerjan> oklopol: hm i suspect you can choose behavior exactly how you want on finitely many values, + your one arithmetic sequence
08:48:55 <oerjan> that is, choose any finite set union an (optional) arithmetic sequence as your halting set
08:49:00 <oklopol> i suspected that as well, until i started thinking about how to do it
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08:49:28 <oerjan> well assume the sequence goes upward
08:49:49 <oklopol> how do you just any finite language?
08:49:53 <oklopol> *just
08:50:00 <oklopol> *do
08:50:01 <oklopol> *argh
08:50:16 <oklopol> how do you implement a finite language
08:50:46 <oerjan> 1,3,7,10,20,30,... can be done as:
08:51:04 <oerjan> -[--[----[---[----------]]]]
08:51:22 <oerjan> i think that's pretty generalizable :P
08:51:49 <oerjan> -1,3,7,10,20,30,... : +[----[----[---[----------]]]]
08:51:56 <oklopol> k i feel pretty stupid
08:52:11 <oklopol> but hi5 we solved it
08:52:16 <oerjan> yay!
08:52:20 <oklopol> we have k=1 and k>=3
08:52:24 <oklopol> now just k=2 left
08:52:29 <oerjan> a5gh
08:52:32 <oklopol> :D
08:53:07 <oerjan> at least we can then just identify > and <
08:53:15 <oerjan> by saying the tape wraps
08:53:24 <oklopol> yes
08:53:49 <oklopol> so each sequence either flips tapes or not
08:53:50 <oerjan> but now we can leave a loop with one cell non-zero.
08:53:57 <oklopol> o dear
08:54:29 <oerjan> oklopol: well, it might still vary which cell a particular loop halts on
08:55:05 <oerjan> it's no longer guaranteed balanced, e.g. [-<] could halt anywhere
08:55:38 <oklopol> we should come up with a better symbol for > and <
08:55:45 <oerjan> X
08:55:45 <oklopol> x is dangerous
08:55:50 <oerjan> wat
08:55:55 <oklopol> IT'S A VARIABLE LOL
08:55:59 <oerjan> O KAY
08:56:00 <oklopol> but yeah it's good
08:56:08 <oklopol> it looks like an eXchange of counters too
08:57:25 <oerjan> now we can do the usual multiplication by a constant stuff like [-<+++++>]
08:57:36 <oklopol> yes
08:58:57 <oklopol> hmm
08:59:16 <oklopol> isn't the first ] we hit in any case the same when n is large enough
08:59:41 <oerjan> and in an innermost loop, [--<+++++>] with all parts optional is basically the same.
08:59:51 <oerjan> oklopol: i think that is true independent of number of cells
08:59:56 <oklopol> true
09:00:03 <oerjan> *is basically all we can have
09:00:07 <oklopol> i'm just wondering if we should start there
09:00:20 <oklopol> but err, what do you mean basically the same
09:00:54 <oerjan> um i corrected that
09:01:13 <oerjan> i got confused and pressed enter with an unfinished sentence
09:02:25 <oerjan> [--<+++++>] either fails to halt, or adds 5/2 of the initial cell to the other, clearing the first.
09:02:27 <oklopol> so we have two kinds of non-nested loops: 1) balanced ones: ones that hang up if n is not in a particular arithmetic sequence cm, m in \N, and otherwise zero n and multiply the other counter by dn/c
09:02:35 <oklopol> err
09:02:53 <oklopol> multiplies it by that you mean, or are you thinking of Q with multiplication with additive notation
09:03:13 <oklopol> 2) unbalanced ones
09:03:15 <oklopol> what do they do
09:03:20 <oerjan> um it's basically the same as what you said in (1)
09:03:32 <oklopol> yes, just wanted to know why you said add
09:03:33 <oerjan> well i dunno quite
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09:03:45 <oerjan> however, hm
09:04:10 <oerjan> one interesting fact: all loops after the first to exit will have a cell with a known value.
09:04:38 <oerjan> or hm
09:04:39 <oklopol> ?
09:04:41 <FireFly> Is this two-infinitely-huge-cells brainfuck?
09:04:44 <oerjan> well not inside.
09:04:44 <oklopol> yes
09:04:59 <oerjan> but before you start a later loop, one of the cells is known
09:05:31 <oerjan> or hm
09:05:37 <oklopol> i'm not following you!
09:05:42 <oerjan> if you have something like [..[....]...]
09:05:47 <oklopol> okay
09:05:53 <oklopol> ... never contains [ or ]
09:05:59 <oerjan> after the inner loop ends, a cell is known to be zero.
09:06:18 <oklopol> true.
09:06:21 <oerjan> so that cell has known value from there on to the next ]
09:06:27 <oklopol> oh true
09:06:43 <oerjan> *next ] or [
09:07:00 <oklopol> so um
09:07:14 <oklopol> i get the feeling that only one of the counters will have a big value after the first ] is met
09:07:28 <oklopol> like ever
09:07:38 <oerjan> yes, that's also true
09:07:54 <oklopol> (trivially, but i mean maybe that's important and we should like call that n and think of which counter it is in as a state, or something)
09:07:55 <oerjan> iirc i thought a big of this stuff back when i was doing the 3-cell thing.
09:08:10 <oerjan> *bit
09:08:24 <oerjan> possibly a big bit
09:08:32 <oerjan> but definitely not all the way through
09:09:11 <oerjan> now that you mention it, the idea of treating the small counter as a state also rings a bell
09:09:25 <oklopol> great minds think alike
09:09:48 <oklopol> when it comes to trivial things
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09:10:10 <oerjan> or well, i don't think it's entirely true. they might still get big in a non-halting way.
09:10:22 <oklopol> sure
09:10:39 <oklopol> but i prefer thinking as such loops as LOOP FOREVER LOL instructions
09:10:44 <oklopol> *of
09:10:45 <oerjan> like, [-->--<] can loop indefinitely even if one cell starts zero
09:10:54 <oklopol> hmm
09:11:20 <oerjan> however, after a ] until the next ]/[ this holds.
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09:12:12 <oerjan> hm...
09:13:05 <oerjan> -[+[-->+<]>-]
09:13:37 <oerjan> i think that may be a program that halts for powers of 2.
09:13:37 <oklopol> what does that do
09:13:41 <oklopol> oh dear.
09:14:42 <oerjan> i was thinking if everything was still arithmetic sequences, then this popped up
09:15:01 <oklopol> yeah that seems to work
09:15:16 <oerjan> *-[+[--x-x]x-] :P
09:16:01 <oklopol> perhaps we are in the presence of a legendary beast, thinking it's a koala
09:16:18 <oerjan> OKAY
09:17:32 <oerjan> oh hm
09:18:24 <oklopol> perhaps it's just that you can do trivial checks for factors
09:18:36 <oklopol> and factor exchange
09:18:38 <oerjan> it might be possible to get rid of nonbalanced loops by replacing ]x stuff with ]x[-x+] stuff
09:18:50 <oerjan> erm
09:19:02 <oklopol> er
09:19:05 <oerjan> *with ]x[-x+x]x stuff
09:19:32 <oerjan> because you don't actually care _which_ cell is zero, mostly.
09:20:02 <oklopol> there's no way to detect a stack exchange
09:20:06 <oklopol> erm *counter
09:20:14 <oerjan> oh hm this may have some trouble if you don't know sign.
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09:20:44 <oklopol> perhaps all things need to know sign anyway
09:20:50 <oklopol> because they hang up for the other sign
09:21:00 <oklopol> alrighty i have to go swimming now
09:21:08 <oerjan> oh. see you.
09:21:26 <oklopol> but i think we're pretty close, tell me if you come up with the last few details :)
09:21:52 <oerjan> ok but now brain needs rest
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10:26:30 <oerjan> <ruddy> 1 gram of TNT equivalent is equal (defined, even, I think) to 1 kcal <-- most interesting, are you sure you're a bot?
10:26:31 <ruddy> can you say "oerjan"?
10:26:40 <oerjan> ruddy: yes, i can.
10:26:41 <ruddy> That's the one with Captain Gandalf?
10:26:56 <oerjan> ruddy: i don't think i've had the honor.
10:26:57 <ruddy> that was a lie, no I haven't
10:27:13 <oerjan> if you say so
10:28:37 <oerjan> <fungot> mrhmouse: you why double you aitch why" is in evolution. he's the channel owner kicked out a lot of <-- no, i am quite sure that's _not_ how "evolution" is spelled.
10:28:37 <fungot> oerjan: the eye socket parts are probably paper thin just like real ones
10:28:46 <oerjan> fungot: eww
10:28:46 <fungot> oerjan: nothing in haskell says you can't just grovel through stack frames manually. take a few decades.) without problems, but when i started working on implementing scheme, by the way
10:28:47 <olsner> calories have to do with the heating of water, if 1 gram of TNT matches that would be a p. big coincidence I think
10:29:02 <oerjan> olsner: it's an arbitrary definition
10:29:09 <olsner> but it's a fun fact
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10:30:29 <olsner> huh, it's actually true
10:31:09 <olsner> one gram of TNT contains (almost) exactly as much energy as it takes to heat one kg of water one degree
10:33:58 <olsner> *almost exactly approximately
10:34:04 <olsner> "A gram of TNT releases 4100–4602 joules upon explosion. To define the tonne of TNT, this was arbitrarily standardized by letting 1 gram TNT = 4184 J (exactly)."
10:51:26 <FireFly> fungot: doesn't sound terribly efficient to me
10:51:26 <fungot> FireFly: where does uml fit into that number
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11:35:59 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/THif Yes, that looks very optimized.
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14:00:27 <boily> good kernel morning!
14:01:02 <boily> @messages-loud
14:01:03 <lambdabot> olsner said 16h 1m 24s ago: the cat goes whirr (and tuk-tuk-tuks a bit when it moves you)
14:01:43 <boily> olsner: ..................?
14:02:04 <boily> (cat goes whirr, dog goes screeeeech... ♪)
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14:47:38 <john_metcalf> boily: what the fox say?
14:52:23 <boily> john_metcalf: hush! I'm trying to unearwom myself!
14:52:34 <boily> s/wom/worm/
14:56:44 <fizzie> What does the earworm say?
14:58:00 <oklopol> [16:44:10] <karelian> ducks say quack
14:58:00 <oklopol> [16:44:17] <karelian> and fish go blub
14:58:06 <oklopol> [16:47:31] <john_metcalf> boily: what the fox say?
14:58:19 <oklopol> what is all this synchronicity between #esoteric and #japanese
14:58:28 <oklopol> there is little intersection
14:58:59 <boily> everything intersects in one way or another.
14:59:06 <kmc> mmm synchronicity
14:59:08 <oklopol> i mean it's not like the fox thing is _everywhere_ on the internet RITE
14:59:16 <boily> (that reminds me I haven't perturbed elliott with ##crawl-talk for a long time...)
14:59:51 <fizzie> oklopol: The fox thing was #1 on Spotify's list of most listened songs for the geographical region "Finland".
15:00:04 <fizzie> (Last I looked, a week or two ago.)
15:00:04 <boily> and trying to join #japanese ends me up into ##namespace.
15:00:50 <oklopol> boily: ohhh maybe i'm imagining the whole channel
15:00:53 <oklopol> that would explain a lot!
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15:01:38 <oklopol> it's ##japanese
15:01:45 <oklopol> apparently
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15:08:01 <kmc> not endoresd by the japan
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15:17:15 <Gregor> If there WERE an official channel for Japanese, it would be #japanese.
15:17:25 <Gregor> /msg lambdabot @stfu
15:21:23 <mrhmouse> wouldn't it be #nihongo or #nippon or something? unless IRC supports Unicode channel names
15:21:51 <kmc> utf-7 is the way to go
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15:23:23 <boily> freenode - :: #日本語 :Illegal channel name
15:24:15 <mrhmouse> thanks boily
15:24:36 <mrhmouse> I was busy looking up whether freenode supported non-ASCII :P
15:27:00 <boily> どういたしまして。
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15:28:43 <mrhmouse> I just see a past-tense verb. I haven't read Japanese in years :I
15:29:27 * boily frappe kmc avec une po+AOo-le en acier galavanis+AOk-
15:29:51 <boily> どういたしまして 《どう致しまして(P); 如何致しまして》 (int) (uk) you are welcome; don't mention it; not at all; my pleasure; (P)
15:35:24 <boily> mrhmouse: did you have classes? if so, how many years? what are your approximate coördinates and body weigh?
15:41:42 <int-e> are you trying to set up a catapult, and if so, what's the destination?
15:44:37 <boily> no, I'm trying to find this channel's centroïd, and see if it falls on Hexham.
15:44:57 <mrhmouse> boily: I didn't take classes. I studied independently in highschool with resources I found online.
15:45:35 <mrhmouse> I've got a spiral notebook of the 300 or so kana that I once knew. But that's been since sophomore year of highschool, and without anybody to converse with, I've lost it all
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15:50:11 <boily> mrhmouse: can you translate “sophomore year of highschool” into Canadianese?
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15:55:37 <nooodl> boily: the schoolyear when you're 15-16 years old
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16:00:07 <boily> oh. «Secondaire 4».
16:01:03 <boily> incidentally, I tried beginning thinking about starting to maybe try to learn basic Japanese around that time.
16:03:56 <nooodl> me too!! well, that's when i got even kinda serious about it. i'd learnt hiragana at age 12 but gave up again soon after
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16:04:35 <nooodl> i definitely remember not being in the secondaire yet at the time
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16:08:58 <boily> education systems of the world endlessly confuse me, especially France's. I can never remember when «lycée» and «collège» happen, let alone what are those university year designations («bac + 5» ???).
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16:15:42 <quintopia> merry christmas boily
16:16:39 <boily> quintopia: joyeux noël à toi aussi!
16:17:17 <Phantom_Hoover> happy birthy boily
16:18:02 <quintopia> boily: you christmas present is on its way
16:20:21 <boily> Phantom_Hoover: as it happens, you're only a little bit off. my birthday falls on December 24.
16:20:28 <boily> quintopia: woot ^^
16:20:59 <quintopia> boily: that must have been annoying
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16:21:36 <quintopia> kids birthdays should be as far from christmas as possible, to maximize presentage
16:23:56 <boily> it's far from annoying. a holiday is garanteed, I spend time with my family, and there are various offers and rebates and discounts for many things (mwah ah ah).
16:24:42 <boily> also, my parents have fun, like that year where I got that nice chair frame on my birthday, but the cushions on Christmas.
16:25:31 <quintopia> i think it'd be better to have a birthday on jan. 1
16:25:51 <quintopia> after-christmas sales are the best
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17:32:16 <FireFly> quintopia: I suppose early august is pretty good in that regard
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17:52:26 <fizzie> Today's Scribblenaut: a man needed something to contain an ooze. I gave him "big klein bottle". Somehow, he managed to get the ooze *inside* it.
18:01:02 <boily> obviously a klein bottle has an inside.
18:01:29 <fizzie> But it's the same side as the outside.
18:01:44 -!- Taneb has joined.
18:02:32 <boily> only a minor detail.
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18:19:51 <ion> Meanwhile on the Kindle http://imgur.com/a/EMBIM
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18:21:17 <boily> ion: Z̩̦͘A̠L̘̭̼G̱̯̲̻̗̰͔O̞̫̤̣̥,͈̗ ̟͉̥͎h̪̩̦͎̫͡e͇̺̝͈͎ͅ ̧e̦̺̘p̼͍͉͓̦ͅu̼͚̱̦b̠̰͕̪̖͘s͏̱!̸̗̜͓ͅ
18:21:30 <ion> verily
18:22:14 -!- Taneb has joined.
18:25:12 <int-e> I guess that's pronounced just as it's written?
18:25:36 <mrhmouse> int-e: the b̠̰͕̪̖͘s͏̱!̸̗̜͓ͅ is silent
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18:28:00 * boily chokes on the «ȅ»
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18:32:43 <olsner> boily: I was going to say that yesterday and then you left
18:34:07 <boily> oh. that kind of cat.
18:34:20 <mrhmouse> bahahaha
18:34:40 <oerjan> `unidecode ȅ
18:34:57 <oerjan> wtf which language has that
18:35:49 <int-e> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_grave_accent
18:36:00 <int-e> scholary discussions. nice!
18:36:13 <int-e> it's ȅducational.
18:36:22 <olsner> btw, android's libc is pretty crappy... discovered today that its fork() deadlocks occasionally
18:37:11 <olsner> (also: its pselect is just sigprocmask+select, which defeats the point of the function existing in the first place)
18:39:43 <olsner> (and fopen and getaddrinfo are not thread safe, but I guess that's fair since nothing I've found explicitly declares that they have to be)
18:39:55 <boily> ~eval let lev a b = let lev' i j = if min i j == 0 then max i j else minimum [lev' (i - 1) j + 1, lev' i (j - 1) + 1, lev' (i - 1) (j - 1) + (if a !! (i - 1) /= b !! (j - 1) then 1 else 0)] in lev' (length a) (length b) in lev "oerjan" "olsner"
18:39:58 <metasepia> Error (1):
18:40:03 <boily> ~eval let lev a b = let lev' i j = if min i j == 0 then max i j else minimum [lev' (i - 1) j + 1, lev' i (j - 1) + 1, lev' (i - 1) (j - 1) + (if a !! (i - 1) /= b !! (j - 1) then 1 else 0)] in lev' (length a) (length b) in lev "oerjan" "olsner"
18:40:04 <metasepia> 5
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18:40:51 <mroman_> C has no Threads.
18:41:06 <mroman_> I thought that was the conclusion of the latest discussion about that particular topic
18:41:37 <fizzie> Given C11, that's kind of a strange conclusion.
18:41:44 <mrhmouse> http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Concurrent_computing#C
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18:43:19 <mrhmouse> Wait, I missed the whole chain of messages from olsner. Ignore that.
18:44:16 <mrhmouse> On a separate note: what fascinating thing are you building that needs to use C on an Android device, olsner?
18:45:42 <ion> http://www.theonion.com/articles/console-wars-heat-up-as-zenith-unveils-gamespace-p,34551/?utm_source=butt&utm_medium=butt&utm_campaign=butt
18:46:04 <oerjan> boily: i think your algorithm has unnecessary exponential blowup
18:46:07 <olsner> fwiw, the fork thing affects java too, since the Process implementation eventually does fork+exec
18:46:29 <olsner> not sure about the other stuff, but it wouldn't be too weird if dns stuff uses getaddrinfo
18:47:23 <olsner> mrhmouse: "work stuff" :)
18:48:58 <mrhmouse> Have you isolated the issue to Android's version of libc, or is there some bug report you're working off of?
18:53:01 <olsner> these are only the bugs I know and that I found proof of or fixes for (fixed in *some* version of bionic, which just means you know the bug exists in all the older versions)
18:57:36 <boily> oerjan: I only needed a naïve oneliner. I know I could iterate over a pair of vectors, but that would have implied thinking.
18:57:45 <shachaf> onëliner
18:59:07 <boily> `learn onëliners are pairs of unfathomable vectors in the category of exponential distance.
18:59:12 <HackEgo> I knew that.
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19:02:15 <boily> `? chess
19:02:17 <HackEgo> Chess is a complex boardgame, where players exchange unclear royal steaks until they decide which of them has lost. The game is recorded through the Gringmuth Moving Pineapple Notation.
19:02:22 <boily> `? pineapple
19:02:24 <HackEgo> Pineapple is a hybrid species descended from a cultivar of spinach and wild ivy, therefore making it a class 6 vegetable.
19:04:52 <AnotherTest> so annoying
19:05:03 <AnotherTest> people write paper and make a mistake in their algorithm
19:05:12 <AnotherTest> well in the pseudocode
19:05:30 <AnotherTest> ... and it gets published
19:06:36 <boily> bugs do have to originate from somewhere. you weren't thinking that they just appeared out of nowhere in production code?
19:07:02 <boily> it takes many man-hours to produce good quality, free-range bugs.
19:07:15 <AnotherTest> no, they made a "logical" mistake in the pseudocode
19:07:47 <AnotherTest> this paper looks at if it hasn't been read by anyone at all
19:07:59 <AnotherTest> but it was on IEEE
19:08:09 <boily> mass-producing cheap bug knock-offs amateurs.
19:08:22 <AnotherTest> "Modified integer factorization algorithm using V-Factor method"
19:08:34 <AnotherTest> also has some typos etc
19:08:40 <AnotherTest> I think it's for a conference
19:08:41 <AnotherTest> but still
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19:10:57 <AnotherTest> also, it's not really something new
19:11:41 <AnotherTest> I have an algorithm here that outpreforms it and is just as simple, and I don't really think it's ready for publication yet
19:12:01 <Bike> ion: utm_campaign=butt
19:12:24 <AnotherTest> well I haven't really thought about writing a paper or anything either
19:12:40 <mrhmouse> Bike: from the butt, for the butt
19:13:00 <AnotherTest> (btw, do people even look at papers from people in highschool)
19:13:22 <Bike> not if they can't help it
19:13:26 <AnotherTest> (do highschool pupils evne write them)
19:16:39 <Bike> http://i.imgur.com/7IVS5LT.jpg britain rules
19:19:31 <oerjan> <shachaf> where neighborhood isn't required to be open? <-- the definition of continuity is equivalent whether you require them to be or not.
19:19:53 <Slereah> Oh god
19:20:00 <Slereah> Plankalkül is so gross
19:20:22 <shachaf> oerjan: right but why do neighborhoods even make sense
19:21:16 <oerjan> `run mv wisdom/onëliner{s,}
19:21:20 <HackEgo> No output.
19:21:42 <Slereah> "The original notation was two dimensional."
19:21:46 <Slereah> Gee golly jeeperw
19:22:58 <boily> Slereah: why is it gross? I like it.
19:24:02 <Slereah> It's not abstract enough to have the beauty of some abstract notation, but not computery enough to look like some serious machine code
19:25:53 <oerjan> <Bike> preimages of closed sets have to be closed anyway i guess <-- um that's yet another definition of (global) continuity
19:28:48 <boily> the sweet-and-sour spot of Baudot encoded languages.
19:29:28 <Bike> oerjan: that's wh at i meant, yes
19:29:34 <oerjan> shachaf: in the one definition, a neighborhood is just an open set containing your chosen point, which are important for being able to say anything local to a point. in the other definition where they aren't open, neigborhoods of a point form a _filter_, which is important as one way to generalize what you take limits in.
19:30:25 <shachaf> ok my book talks about that so i'll read about that??
19:30:29 <shachaf> thx
19:31:36 <shachaf> oerjan: why does https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prime_filter redirect to an article that says "Hence, most additional information on this topic (including the definition of maximal filters and prime filters) is to be found in the article on ideals."
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19:34:55 <oerjan> shachaf: well the article on ideals doesn't seem to define them either.
19:35:52 <oerjan> hm well i guess it does.
19:36:15 <shachaf> maybe you need to read the thing that says that an ideal is dual to a filter before that makes sense
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19:40:48 <oerjan> well you'll be happy to know that it no longer redirects there hth
19:41:21 <oerjan> also i have started bypassing the script lately tdnh
19:41:23 -!- constant has changed nick to variable.
19:41:31 <shachaf> what script
19:42:17 <oerjan> the one that censors any line ending with things like
19:44:23 <boily> how did you manage to hth in “... redirects there hth” but not in “... with things like”?
19:46:27 <shachaf> oerjan: Wait, you have a script to censor "hth"?
19:46:38 <shachaf> :'(
19:46:43 <oerjan> boily: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RuleOfFun
19:46:48 <oerjan> shachaf: elliott made it
19:47:47 <boily> oerjan: and now I know.
19:48:07 * boily tries to sing «hth, hthhhhh, hhhhhhhhhhhthhhh ♪»
19:48:46 <oerjan> remarkable effort from a french speaker there
19:49:07 <oerjan> are you sure you're not abusing them all being silent
19:53:07 <boily> don't pay attention to the silent h behind the curtain.
19:54:08 <oerjan> i eard noting
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19:59:00 <boily> from wikipédia's samples, I can't make no difference between [ħ] and [h].
20:00:15 <myname> hahaha
20:03:21 * boily glares at myname while he thinks of a suitable counter-attack
20:03:26 <AnotherTest> what's "tdnh"
20:03:31 <boily> `? tdnh
20:03:33 <HackEgo> tdnh does not help
20:03:38 <AnotherTest> oh
20:03:40 <AnotherTest> another aah
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20:05:58 <boily> (meanwhile, I like south (django's (the web platform (or framework, I lost count (a character in Sesame (you never can get enough of it on maki (ja:巻 en:scroll) sushi) Street))) migration tool))
20:08:26 <oerjan> boily: sounds a little one-directional
20:09:16 <int-e> Maybe it's the winter (when birds migrate south) version and you'll have to wait for the summer one.
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20:18:56 <boily> oerjan: I do not listen to One Direction. all I know is that it's kinda like the latest manufactured boy band or something. eeqça.
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20:25:30 * myname wonders if rule of fun is in any way related to dwarf fortres
20:27:42 <boily> “Failure Is the Only Option: "Losing is Fun!" became the official motto for a reason.”
20:28:03 <boily> “Hilarity Ensues: Look, if you actually get upset when one of your dwarves gets into a foul mood because you killed his cat on accident, beats up another dwarf who then gets ticked off enough to put his pick into the head of another dwarf who then lies there decaying on the ground, causing bad smells that drive a handful of the other dwarves unhappy enough to pick up axes until bleeding, insane and dead
20:28:05 <boily> dwarves litter your fortress, you're playing it wrong. Losing is Fun, after all!”
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20:30:37 <boily> for the time being, I'll stick with good ol' DCSS. I'm not yet prepared to be maximally enfunised.
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20:50:44 <mrhmouse> while we're on the subject of games with roguelike interfaces.. Does anybody know of a worthwhile multiplayer roguelike?
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20:55:37 <mrhmouse> Obviously turn-based play is probably out the window. I'm more interested in the general nature of the game (dungeon diving for some mythical item while leveling up along the way).
20:56:28 <myname> i only knew one which i didn't get :/
20:56:38 <Bike> diablo clearly
20:57:51 <boily> mangband.
20:57:52 <myname> i thought of making my own rl, but i don't have time right now
20:57:55 <myname> boily: that
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21:04:45 <mrhmouse> mangband looks like what I'm looking for! Bike: I've never played any of the Diablo games. Are they local multiplayer or online?
21:05:23 <Bike> online, apparently. i wasn't really serious
21:05:27 <mrhmouse> @tell boily thanks for suggesting mangband, looks great
21:05:28 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
21:05:34 <Bike> well, it has LAN, i don't know what you mean by "local" exactly
21:05:47 -!- boily has joined.
21:05:53 <mrhmouse> Bike: same screen == local to me
21:06:03 <Bike> right, so no, doesn't have that
21:06:06 <myname> i never played any *band so i didn't get warm with mangband
21:06:56 <mrhmouse> it really saddens me how few games these days include same-screen co-op play :/
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21:36:41 <FireFly> fungot!
21:36:42 <fungot> FireFly: def command lang code tends to go fubar when you haven't yet
21:36:59 <FireFly> I'd rather not go fubar
21:37:03 <mrhmouse> fungot: when you haven't what yet?
21:37:03 <fungot> mrhmouse: i'm not seeing the 32bit loving code in pre-scheme. but it makes it a good target
21:38:02 <mrhmouse> I'm not sure if you mean target (expected runtime platform) or target (receiver of projectiles)
21:39:26 <mrhmouse> I'm sure ruddy knows what you're talking about, though
21:39:26 <ruddy> USually some kind of technical issue.
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21:42:47 <FireFly> ruddy: well duh
21:42:48 <ruddy> Can't touch dis.
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21:52:51 <mrhmouse> ruddy, we're no longer in the 1990s...
21:52:52 <ruddy> \o/
21:55:41 <boily> ruddy: dis, as in the Iron City of the same name?
21:55:41 <ruddy> ye
21:55:46 <boily> !
21:56:22 <boily> mrhmouse: your bot is scary. he invokes branches of Hell.
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22:12:49 <FireFly> ruddy: so um, what esolangs do you like?
22:12:50 <ruddy> Welcome back
22:13:03 <FireFly> ruddy: stop trying to avoid the question. We need to know.
22:13:04 <ruddy> and the point I'm making is that I really like this story.
22:13:17 <mrhmouse> clearly ruddy wants to tell us a story
22:13:17 <ruddy> mangband.
22:13:29 <Bike> :o
22:13:33 <mrhmouse> it may also have brain damage
22:14:12 <boily> ruddy learns fast!
22:14:13 <ruddy> no.
22:14:19 <boily> and ruddy is modest!
22:14:19 <ruddy> no.
22:14:29 <mrhmouse> ruddy is pretty negative today..
22:14:29 <ruddy> planet melmac
22:14:30 <Bike> ok i'm liking this chatterbot's style now.
22:14:41 <boily> ruddy is fungot in disguise.
22:14:41 <fungot> boily: saw that.
22:14:42 <ruddy> Speak!
22:14:52 <boily> fungot: I saw it too.
22:14:52 <fungot> boily: sure: cd /usr/ pkgsrc/ fonts/ misc has fnord
22:14:58 <boily> (also, http://eleks.github.io/js2js/)
22:15:32 <FireFly> fungot has a fnord font? I'm not too surprised.
22:15:32 <fungot> FireFly: my mouse just goes poof. time to apply that procedure, so the value of writing them anybody want to clue me in on the fnord
22:16:08 <FireFly> fungot: I thought your box was headless...
22:16:08 <fungot> FireFly: oh wait,
22:16:12 * FireFly waits
22:16:52 * boily waits for FireFly
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22:20:17 <mrhmouse> boily: that is glorious.
22:20:32 <FireFly> boily: haha, nice
22:21:11 <mrhmouse> ruddy: row, row, row your botsnack
22:21:11 <ruddy> before you break my heart
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22:24:46 <Bike> i think i'm seriously considering memoizing a function over all possible floats.
22:25:53 <FireFly> ...why?
22:26:08 <Bike> because calling it a billion times takes twenty seconds and i'd rather it not.
22:26:25 <FireFly> Oh, memoizing
22:26:53 <FireFly> I was thinking of making a LUT for all possible floats
22:27:22 <`^_^v> how do you memoize a function over all possible floats
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22:27:37 <Bike> you don't, it's stupid
22:27:52 <`^_^v> i'm just trying to figure out what that means
22:28:00 <`^_^v> cause it sounds like you want to precalculate, not memoize
22:28:11 <Bike> whatever.
22:28:21 <mrhmouse> it sounds like he wants to do both
22:28:31 <Bike> it sounds like everything is terrible!
22:28:32 <FireFly> couldn't you use something hashmappy to map floats to values? it seems like it'd be easy to write a good hash function for floats
22:28:39 <FireFly> I think
22:29:16 <Bike> i think i need better metrics. draw up a distribution of the billion values this is called on
22:30:50 <mrhmouse> anything that floats and isn't a duck is clearly a witch and I don't trust it
22:33:50 <FireFly> No no, it just has to weigh the same as a duck, obviously
22:34:15 * FireFly throws Bike's floats in the water
22:34:23 <Bike> D:!
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22:38:49 <mrhmouse> Huh. Right to the bottom. At least now you know your floats aren't witches, Bike
22:40:18 <mrhmouse> Although they may now be guests at a seedy hotel
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22:58:45 <kmc> `frink 96.7 kg to lbs
22:58:54 <HackEgo> ​[]
22:58:59 <kmc> welp
22:59:26 <FireFly> `frink 10 px to radians
22:59:35 <HackEgo> Warning: undefined symbol "px". \ Bounds in range expression are of unsupported types: (10 px (undefined symbol), 1) \ at frink.expr.bh.byte(frink) \ at frink.expr.bh.evaluate(frink) \ at frink.parser.Frink.parseString(frink) \ at frink.parser.Frink.parseStrings(frink) \ at frink.parser.Frink.main(frink) \ Bounds in range expression
22:59:51 <FireFly> Ow
22:59:54 <olsner> why is pounds written lbs?
23:00:02 <FireFly> "libras" or something
23:00:11 <olsner> hmm, as in books?
23:02:19 <ais523> I think it's a corruption of the Latin for "pound"
23:02:32 <ais523> but I can't remember exactly how it's spelt
23:03:01 <FireFly> Wikipedia says "The unit is descended from the Roman libra (hence the abbreviation "lb"); the name pound is a Germanic adaptation of the Latin phrase libra pondo, 'a pound by weight'"
23:03:59 <FireFly> As far as I can tell 'libra' as a unit of weight originated in Latin
23:06:55 <ais523> wow, this spambot put "Dear Smith Alex, " and my email address in the subject line of the email
23:07:17 <ais523> and the email itself looks similar to XML but isn't because it's got some text before the <?xml:> tag
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23:08:04 <ais523> also, it appears to be OOXML using no tags but <p> tags and with all spaces changed to nonbreaking spaces
23:08:17 <ais523> and the links aren't even hyperlinked
23:08:34 <ais523> in other words, this email could have been written entirely in plaintext, and would look the same as intended if it had been
23:09:07 <ais523> this is a good argument for using the right format for your messages :)
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