< 1384560007 562256 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :arthur, you are an evil duck http://www.sheldoncomics.com/archive/131115.html < 1384560092 144053 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: As far as I know, the canonical stereotype involves no touching either. See http://depressingfinland.tumblr.com/post/65617168839/chibisuz-depressingfinland-234937289-bus < 1384560145 858618 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :"it’s okay if you don’t pronounce it perfectly right because the only reason someone would talk to strangers in public transport is to ask them to move, so they will get the hint" very true < 1384560167 660678 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-203-32.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't really mispronounce a grunt either < 1384560181 901594 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: what's a "standing up seat" < 1384560223 969491 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: A paradox. (I think a standing place was intended.) < 1384560236 712793 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :We don't have seats you stand on in buses, no. < 1384560248 848341 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :the rule in norway is similar but we do _not_ usually take standing places before starting to sit next to each other :P < 1384560261 782586 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, some probably do, but it's not a rule. < 1384560304 418963 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, well, I think maybe about half the people in here don't, either. (Could be more, could be less.) So it's not as strict rule as the no-talking one, or the others. < 1384560400 41227 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Also depends on distance and such.) < 1384560425 21164 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :mä jään tääs of course consists solely of the one finnish vowel i find awkward to pronounce. < 1384560431 713652 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1384560463 68317 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :despite it being nominally in norwegian too < 1384560571 723524 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Älä rääkkää sitä kääkkää! En rääkkääkään. < 1384560597 9054 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think my brain basically is prejudiced with "it's not in front of an r, use an "e" instead you idiot!" < 1384560632 878672 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :can someone do it in IPA plox < 1384560643 835344 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-203-32.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd consider it weird to stand on the bus if there are free seats even if they are no double free seats < 1384560670 216722 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: ä = [æ] afaik < 1384560697 208222 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about j? < 1384560709 8150 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I keep mentally hearing all the 'ä's in, say, LOTR (Eärendil) as the Finnish ä, which is so wrong. < 1384560709 184723 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :[j] < 1384560814 968728 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-203-32.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :otoh it does avoid the difficult problem of deciding which person on the bus is least scary to sit next to < 1384560816 5417 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :google cannot translate rääkkääkään, but still suggests it should be rääkkääkkään (which it cannot translate either) < 1384560849 235680 :prooftechnique!~Also@c-24-147-92-50.hsd1.vt.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does it suggest rääkkääkkääkkään or rääkkääkään for rääkkääkkään? < 1384560855 275269 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :no. < 1384560884 502466 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: i cannot seem to tell the difference between æ and ɛ...there's just no reason to ever get that kind of find tongue control in english < 1384560888 393614 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :*fine < 1384560907 56345 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :"(enclitic, appended to a verb form) indicates confirmation of not doing something, e.g. if someone doubts it, or, when someone is more or less surprised at an occurrence, indicates the reason why some thing was not successful – which is by not doing that something < 1384560911 15059 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Minä) en syönytkään eilen jäätelöä. < 1384560913 490596 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I didn't eat ice-cream yesterday." < 1384560924 727949 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's just that. < 1384560950 808115 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :The "confirmation" one. < 1384560986 543284 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: it doesn't know rääkkää or kääkkää either. < 1384561009 75193 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :How about "rääkätä"? < 1384561024 379504 :Taneb!~Taneb@5.151.64.156 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Isn't that a pokemon < 1384561036 706773 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :"torment" < 1384561046 346599 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's right. < 1384561107 8365 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :And kääkkä is... something like a pejorative term for an old person. < 1384561145 622186 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a proper English word for it, I'm sure. < 1384561153 618700 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Crone? < 1384561162 994479 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think that only applies to women < 1384561224 297929 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess kääkkä is gender-neutral, maybe slightly biased towards women. < 1384561242 875561 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :also i think crone is sort of archaic? < 1384561247 890245 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe "hag". < 1384561303 936824 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :which somehow needs "old" in front, i suspect < 1384561329 955186 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: are you thinking of "anacrone"? < 1384561343 885636 :Sprocklem!~Sprocklem@S010674440130be65.cg.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1384561361 907935 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :NO. < 1384561362 606761 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/crone includes "kääkkä" as the Finnish translation. < 1384561459 811303 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :"As a stock character in fairy or folk tale, the hag shares characteristics with the crone, and the two words are sometimes used as if interchangeable." < 1384561499 125472 :Taneb!~Taneb@5.151.64.156 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there such thing as a true synonym? < 1384561520 374549 :Taneb!~Taneb@5.151.64.156 PRIVMSG #esoteric :A word that is perfectly interchangable for another? < 1384561520 962856 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The word "crone" is a less common synonym for "old woman," and is more likely to appear in reference to traditional narratives than in contemporary everyday usage." < 1384561539 271556 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Using the word "hag" to translate terms found in non-English (or non-modern English) is contentious, since use of the word is often associated with a misogynistic attitude." < 1384561556 328647 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'd say hag seems more like what you are implying. < 1384561620 106453 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhags. < 1384561625 364968 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: why do you shout so much < 1384561657 249281 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :BECAUSE YOU'RE ALL THE WAY ON ANOTHER CONTINENT < 1384561681 621748 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-203-32.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :AND POSSIBLY HARD OF HEARING < 1384561712 202699 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1384561901 353301 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: i can think of a few examples, i'm sure. for words that have lots of synonyms, sometimes there are several subsets which also have the same connotations < 1384561907 449820 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1384561962 60891 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :for instance, i can't see any situation where ill-at-ease and uncomfortable aren't completely swappable < 1384561978 357874 :Taneb!~Taneb@5.151.64.156 PRIVMSG #esoteric :When you're talking about a sofa? < 1384561989 182893 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://depressingfinland.tumblr.com/post/66945321786/i-love-your-blog-i-am-a-finnophile-it-all-came-about < 1384561991 876539 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1384561995 106965 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :What if your 'i' key is broken? < 1384561997 504364 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :bad example < 1384562000 886581 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am not sure this person realises that we have a word for that in english also < 1384562001 172490 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :need to think harder < 1384562041 348576 :Taneb!~Taneb@5.151.64.156 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"bloody freezing"? < 1384562043 555573 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: how about "delay" and "wait"? < 1384562056 411316 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :reallyfuckingcold < 1384562062 893696 :Taneb!~Taneb@5.151.64.156 PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia, you wouldn't delay for someone < 1384562073 253962 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :why not < 1384562080 716223 :Taneb!~Taneb@5.151.64.156 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I wouldn't < 1384562092 534494 :Taneb!~Taneb@5.151.64.156 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also you wouldn't want someone in a restaurant to delay on you < 1384562123 839833 :nisstyre!~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1384562133 754038 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: shore and coast? < 1384562136 357966 :Taneb!~Taneb@5.151.64.156 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I see "wait" as having much friendlier connoctations < 1384562151 740571 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait < 1384562153 237221 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :You wouldn't wait a delivery, I think. (Though you might wait for one that's been delayedf.) < 1384562155 743469 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :both of those are also verbs < 1384562173 183275 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i think the noun forms are identical < 1384562267 17385 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Noun < 1384562267 213300 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :shore (plural shores) < 1384562267 213478 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :A prop or strut supporting the weight or flooring above it. < 1384562269 92122 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :The shores stayed upright during the earthquake." < 1384562275 970650 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not a coast. < 1384562297 394454 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :meh < 1384562304 601382 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: how about miasmic and miasmal < 1384562317 668188 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is a p. tricky task T. has set. < 1384562340 308640 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :t. dat < 1384562340 464777 :Taneb!~Taneb@5.151.64.156 PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia, I imagine miasmic referring to a substance and miasmal as to an environment, but maybe that's just me < 1384562350 158848 :glogbackup!~glogbacku@64.31.59.246 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1384562368 726716 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: everyone and everybody < 1384562381 965902 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-203-32.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, is pakkanen a specific word for "below 0"? afaik none of the swedish words for cold have any specific temperature ranges < 1384562382 123824 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ø. agrees, I see. < 1384562400 465573 :Taneb!~Taneb@5.151.64.156 PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia, hmm, good one < 1384562422 223789 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: It does mean "freezing". < 1384562451 414507 :glogbackup!~glogbacku@64.31.59.246 JOIN :#esoteric < 1384562496 734517 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-203-32.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :"freezing" is also a generic word for being/feeling cold < 1384562578 754244 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: Well, the sense of freezing that means a temperature where water freezes. < 1384562581 527629 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no TOPIC #esoteric :The channel of the chimæric hellos | The most corum, clargoint chait you could ever loofefl your slance in. | Magnus!! | Koirammekokaan ei lennä? :( | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ or http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ < 1384562623 702504 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not "pakkanen" if it's above zero, that's non-negotiable. < 1384562661 14383 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: what if you are at abnormally high pressures? < 1384562670 601000 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm doesn't swedish have a word like "kuldegrader" < 1384562722 742255 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Pakkassen puolella" and "pakkasasteita" are both also real expressions. < 1384562746 482083 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :q.: I don't know, actually. < 1384562903 726118 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It doesn't change all that much, right? Not like the boiling point. < 1384562936 551011 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Matter. Sigh. What's it good for, anyway?) < 1384562947 594046 :Taneb!~Taneb@5.151.64.156 QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1384563056 240957 :APott!6c5c4cfc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.108.92.76.252 JOIN :#esoteric < 1384563068 655053 :APott!6c5c4cfc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.108.92.76.252 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello! < 1384563080 308881 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-203-32.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: hm, we do have "minus degrees" (which doesn't mean that it's considered cold) or possibly "degrees cold" (but sometimes +20 is "cold"...) < 1384563096 864732 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-203-32.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :but those are like phrases for pronouncing temperatures < 1384563110 778400 :APott!6c5c4cfc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.108.92.76.252 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Has anyone here ever built an interpreter? I have a few questions < 1384563137 467500 :APott!6c5c4cfc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.108.92.76.252 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of a normal language, may be a bit off topic < 1384563161 348892 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol off topic < 1384563162 838515 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yeah sure < 1384563193 670212 :APott!6c5c4cfc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.108.92.76.252 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Alright great < 1384563207 893549 :APott!6c5c4cfc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.108.92.76.252 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've built a basic one before but I'm working on one right now < 1384563222 120839 :APott!6c5c4cfc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.108.92.76.252 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have always never really understood the best way to construct an AST < 1384563242 162058 :APott!6c5c4cfc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.108.92.76.252 PRIVMSG #esoteric :specifically how meta data should be stored, and the different node types are determined < 1384563251 836108 :APott!6c5c4cfc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.108.92.76.252 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or the most proper way < 1384563253 923489 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds like a job for a parser generator < 1384563267 257214 :APott!6c5c4cfc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.108.92.76.252 PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is not what I want < 1384563278 802816 :APott!6c5c4cfc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.108.92.76.252 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I find handwriting fun and actually a bit simpler than writing a grammar < 1384563296 426745 :APott!6c5c4cfc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.108.92.76.252 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know how to create an AST I just don't know the best methods for it < 1384563307 558602 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess you hvae to write a few parsers in order to learn to hate doing it yourself. < 1384563340 199489 :APott!6c5c4cfc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.108.92.76.252 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So you can't answer my question? xD < 1384563372 402497 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, to specify an AST the usual way basically amounts to an algebraic data structure. < 1384563443 906812 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :like you might have Form = Conditional Form Form Form | Call Form Form | Lambda Symbol Form | Access Symbol for a simple lambda calculus with ifs. < 1384563479 829920 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that means, form is either a "conditional" with three subforms (for the condition, the "then", and the "else"), a call with two subforms (the callee and the argument), a lambda, or a variable. < 1384563501 817792 :APott!6c5c4cfc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.108.92.76.252 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1384563515 424755 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and uh... that's basically it? < 1384563518 672785 :APott!6c5c4cfc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.108.92.76.252 PRIVMSG #esoteric :how would I store metd data though? < 1384563523 827198 :APott!6c5c4cfc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.108.92.76.252 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or should I*? < 1384563525 17732 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :What metadata? < 1384563529 924627 :APott!6c5c4cfc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.108.92.76.252 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like names of things and stuff < 1384563538 507289 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Names of things... and stuff. < 1384563543 705191 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :What? < 1384563545 253619 :Oj742!irc2gowebc@131.252.207.174 QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1384563550 344316 :APott!6c5c4cfc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.108.92.76.252 PRIVMSG #esoteric :For example < 1384563593 656641 :APott!6c5c4cfc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.108.92.76.252 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if I'm parsing a javascript variable definition or something: "var name;" in the node how/where would be the best place to store "name"? < 1384563612 543652 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1384563627 56343 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then in this AST you have a syntax type like VarDecl [Symbol]. < 1384563641 164984 :APott!6c5c4cfc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.108.92.76.252 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I feel like I'm missing something huge or frustrating you, or both. < 1384563695 174802 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :The whole point of this algebraic thing is you just have a struct definition for every type of syntactic construct, basically. < 1384563708 892058 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :Symbol is where the symbol is stored < 1384563715 79768 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :data Expr a = Bound Nat a | Lambda (Expr a) a | App (Expr a) (Expr a) a < 1384563719 853244 :APott!6c5c4cfc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.108.92.76.252 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I understand this, but what confused me is how to structure them for interpretation later on < 1384563760 66016 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the structure itself < 1384563761 390866 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't think you understand this. < 1384563768 251073 :APott!6c5c4cfc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.108.92.76.252 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mainly, how do I keep these types together in the tree structure. I have them all extend the root AST struct < 1384563771 34560 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a tree < 1384563776 808788 :APott!6c5c4cfc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.108.92.76.252 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know this < 1384563777 845462 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1384563782 174739 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jafet: Pft, arbitrary Nats. < 1384563785 394746 :APott!6c5c4cfc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.108.92.76.252 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know this, let me explain what I'im gertting aty < 1384563793 63173 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :the tree is based on the grammar < 1384563798 126141 :APott!6c5c4cfc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.108.92.76.252 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes < 1384563798 992152 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whatever, ASTs are overrated. < 1384563812 688257 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :@let eval = let e s@(_:'\\':v:'.':l)=let(x,')':t)=e$d l in(take 4 s++x++")",t);e('(':s)=let(x,t)=e s;(y,')':u)=e$d t in(a x y,u);e s=splitAt 1$d s;d=snd.span(==' ');a(_:'\\':v:_:l)s=let f x|x==v=s|1>0=[x]in fst.e$init l>>=f;a f x='(':f++" "++x++")" in e < 1384563814 768734 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric : Defined. < 1384563817 163301 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :so an expression might have subexpressions, which would eb its children in the AST < 1384563820 144423 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :get a job taneb < 1384563837 152912 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :jafet < 1384563840 8991 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :god why do i confuse you < 1384563840 388564 :APott!6c5c4cfc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.108.92.76.252 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't even know what the hell that is < 1384563854 463605 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :jafet's thing is humorous if you're a goddamn nerd and we're not goddamn nerds here < 1384563866 163523 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :the only things that are children of root are things that the start symbol could produce in the grammar < 1384563874 711138 :APott!6c5c4cfc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.108.92.76.252 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes I know < 1384563887 869222 :APott!6c5c4cfc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.108.92.76.252 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't finished my explanation but yet I'm hearing obvious answers to questions not asked < 1384563902 396714 :APott!6c5c4cfc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.108.92.76.252 PRIVMSG #esoteric :seeing* < 1384563926 823718 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay. i'll give you a few minutes to narrow your question down < 1384563939 134445 :APott!6c5c4cfc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.108.92.76.252 PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks < 1384564037 620880 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :Goddamn bikes < 1384564042 965648 :APott!6c5c4cfc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.108.92.76.252 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I have a struct named AST. I have others for each language construct that extend this AST struct. Each struct has a property which determines what it represents. Each has an array for more AST structs, for the tree structure. Lets say I have a piece of data I need passed with a node, how do I do this? < 1384564073 5369 :APott!6c5c4cfc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.108.92.76.252 PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's quite specific to each rule/construct < 1384564098 870478 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, yeah, that's why the AST i laid out has some things with "Symbol" instead of just always more ASTs. you need a base case as it were. < 1384564100 810697 :APott!6c5c4cfc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.108.92.76.252 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do I simply create a property in the struct for that rule? < 1384564112 824353 :APott!6c5c4cfc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.108.92.76.252 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oic < 1384564124 676972 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1384564141 274877 :APott!6c5c4cfc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.108.92.76.252 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ok after reading that I feel the answer to that was way to simple to even be asked < 1384564151 541010 :APott!6c5c4cfc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.108.92.76.252 PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least you knocked my head straight < 1384564369 16232 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically this amounts to a tagged union - in C you'd have an AST struct with two fields, the tag and the actual object. the actual object is a union over all the syntactic types, and the tag just says which syntactic type this AST is. < 1384564395 863422 :APott!6c5c4cfc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.108.92.76.252 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oic < 1384564650 314989 :APott!6c5c4cfc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.108.92.76.252 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Would you guys like an alligator? < 1384564697 935453 :yorick!~yorick@oftn/member/yorick QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1384565093 841341 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :like these? http://worrydream.com/AlligatorEggs/ < 1384565136 800243 :nooodl!~nooodl@d54C668E4.access.telenet.be QUIT :Quit: Ik ga weg < 1384565179 816000 :^v!~NotPing@2601:4:4500:887:9f9:13c5:793d:587e QUIT :Quit: http://i.imgur.com/MHuW96t.gif < 1384565203 814796 :augur_!~augur@216-164-48-148.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :lets play hangman! < 1384565203 971095 :Sprocklem!~Sprocklem@S010674440130be65.cg.shawcable.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1384565206 706369 :^v!~NotPing@2601:4:4500:887:9f9:13c5:793d:587e JOIN :#esoteric < 1384565224 452689 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :they do? < 1384565255 838221 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :~metar RKSI < 1384565359 839550 :prooftechnique!~Also@c-24-147-92-50.hsd1.vt.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur_: Okay < 1384565366 301090 :augur_!~augur@216-164-48-148.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :prooftechnique: :D < 1384565390 444726 :augur_!~augur@216-164-48-148.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dont know if these a convention for doing the picture of the dude, so ill just count to 6 < 1384565405 829626 :prooftechnique!~Also@c-24-147-92-50.hsd1.vt.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :E < 1384565417 173391 :augur_!~augur@216-164-48-148.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :hold on :| < 1384565435 965361 :augur_!~augur@216-164-48-148.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :_ _ _ _ (0 wrong) < 1384565481 1870 :prooftechnique!~Also@c-24-147-92-50.hsd1.vt.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :A < 1384565490 521766 :augur_!~augur@216-164-48-148.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :_ a _ _ (0 wrong) < 1384565502 997480 :prooftechnique!~Also@c-24-147-92-50.hsd1.vt.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Z < 1384565511 409063 :augur_!~augur@216-164-48-148.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :_ a z z (0 wrong) < 1384565514 340135 :prooftechnique!~Also@c-24-147-92-50.hsd1.vt.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :JAZZ < 1384565523 894087 :augur_!~augur@216-164-48-148.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :prooftechnique: you watch QI :( < 1384565529 711824 :prooftechnique!~Also@c-24-147-92-50.hsd1.vt.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Correct :D < 1384565533 819477 :augur_!~augur@216-164-48-148.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1384565559 388715 :augur_!~augur@216-164-48-148.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :prooftechnique: ok lets go again < 1384565563 281374 :augur_!~augur@216-164-48-148.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :_ _ _ _ (0 wrong) < 1384565602 436792 :prooftechnique!~Also@c-24-147-92-50.hsd1.vt.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i < 1384565608 369801 :augur_!~augur@216-164-48-148.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :_ _ _ _ (1 wrong: i) < 1384565621 794643 :prooftechnique!~Also@c-24-147-92-50.hsd1.vt.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :j < 1384565630 715822 :augur_!~augur@216-164-48-148.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :_ _ _ _ (2 wrong: i j) < 1384565632 489607 :prooftechnique!~Also@c-24-147-92-50.hsd1.vt.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :e < 1384565652 828142 :augur_!~augur@216-164-48-148.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :_ _ _ _ (3 wrong: e i j) < 1384565667 267948 :prooftechnique!~Also@c-24-147-92-50.hsd1.vt.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :f < 1384565675 270774 :augur_!~augur@216-164-48-148.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :_ _ _ _ (4 wrong: e f i j) < 1384565693 592029 :prooftechnique!~Also@c-24-147-92-50.hsd1.vt.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, that's a whole class of hard words eliminated < 1384565696 767785 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :a < 1384565711 33403 :augur_!~augur@216-164-48-148.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :_ _ _ _ (5 wrong: a e f i j) < 1384565715 139083 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1384565741 205192 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :q < 1384565752 555794 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :hangman isn't fair with short words < 1384565761 482269 :augur_!~augur@216-164-48-148.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :_ _ _ _ (6 wrong: a e f i j q) < 1384565769 389863 :augur_!~augur@216-164-48-148.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :cull < 1384565776 222249 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :also you should add a prog to hackego to do what you're doing :P < 1384565780 900445 :prooftechnique!~Also@c-24-147-92-50.hsd1.vt.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pretty good < 1384565796 106770 :prooftechnique!~Also@c-24-147-92-50.hsd1.vt.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, hangman in Haskell is surprisingly easy < 1384565797 4240 :augur_!~augur@216-164-48-148.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :prooftechnique: you didnt watch that episode of QI sufficiently :X < 1384565813 627243 :prooftechnique!~Also@c-24-147-92-50.hsd1.vt.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I blocked it out to make it fair, of course < 1384565819 407020 :augur_!~augur@216-164-48-148.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1384565845 127158 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I never draw the picture in hangman; I always just count how many more tries you have < 1384565883 732740 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :i always draw < 1384565902 229730 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :because that way you can give extra tries without making it obvious you're doing so with kids < 1384565909 741122 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :by adding eyes and hair and stuff < 1384565945 818370 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't like that; I always want everyone to know exactly how many tries you have left. No cheating by giving extra tries!!! < 1384565989 680819 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some hangman games set how many tries by the length of the word or phrase. Famicom Hangman does this too (a program I have written). < 1384566019 716039 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do not like using the picture since it makes it unclear so it just makes a box containing the wrong letters and once it is fill up, then you lose. < 1384566020 856601 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the point of hangman where you aren't murdering a stick figure < 1384566022 37662 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :honestly < 1384566041 63244 :APott!6c5c4cfc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.108.92.76.252 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I agree with that statement < 1384566071 535362 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bike: To guess the word. Of course you can draw the stick figure if you prefer but I prefer to not do so since it makes it less clear how many tries you have left. < 1384566096 369318 :^v!~NotPing@2601:4:4500:887:9f9:13c5:793d:587e QUIT :Quit: http://i.imgur.com/MHuW96t.gif < 1384566189 42361 :APott!6c5c4cfc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.108.92.76.252 PRIVMSG #esoteric :+you're right because there is a variable amount of body parts you could count < 1384566195 731916 :APott!6c5c4cfc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.108.92.76.252 PRIVMSG #esoteric :down to the eye lashes < 1384566203 837451 :prooftechnique!~Also@c-24-147-92-50.hsd1.vt.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :To the toenails < 1384566209 354970 :APott!6c5c4cfc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.108.92.76.252 PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1384566217 498576 :APott!6c5c4cfc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.108.92.76.252 PRIVMSG #esoteric :to your individual hairs < 1384566237 112960 :APott!6c5c4cfc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.108.92.76.252 PRIVMSG #esoteric :skin cells < 1384566243 919707 :APott!6c5c4cfc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.108.92.76.252 PRIVMSG #esoteric :blood cells < 1384566252 278067 :APott!6c5c4cfc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.108.92.76.252 PRIVMSG #esoteric :atoms < 1384566256 457471 :APott!6c5c4cfc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.108.92.76.252 PRIVMSG #esoteric :organelles < 1384566269 880283 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :?messages-loud < 1384566270 250126 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :boily said 6h 39s ago: I owe you some royalties for the “at canada” brand. < 1384566300 411200 :prooftechnique!~Also@c-24-147-92-50.hsd1.vt.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I have shown, by ingenious induction on the structure of man, that in fact I have (n+1) tries in hangman. QED, nyah nyah nyah" < 1384566311 301754 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :boily: I do not accept royalties for such brand. < 1384566510 915846 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :prooftechnique: famous last words < 1384566561 919204 :prooftechnique!~Also@c-24-147-92-50.hsd1.vt.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I call it "Little Fermat's Theorem" < 1384566676 603187 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: do shorter words get you more tries than longer words? < 1384566682 869502 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :(in famicom hangman) < 1384566720 801337 :prooftechnique!~Also@c-24-147-92-50.hsd1.vt.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: This alligator game is crazy < 1384566729 616605 :prooftechnique!~Also@c-24-147-92-50.hsd1.vt.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where do you find these links? < 1384566753 717409 :prooftechnique!~Also@c-24-147-92-50.hsd1.vt.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: I wonder if shorter people get you fewer guesses < 1384567155 295613 :APott!6c5c4cfc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.108.92.76.252 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I have a programming question < 1384567165 388153 :APott!6c5c4cfc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.108.92.76.252 PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you don't mind < 1384567188 387730 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :prooftechnique: seen it way back, possibly linked in r/haskell < 1384567194 242330 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :or perhaps even here < 1384567202 132734 :prooftechnique!~Also@c-24-147-92-50.hsd1.vt.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :APott: Go for it < 1384567207 559100 :prooftechnique!~Also@c-24-147-92-50.hsd1.vt.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: You always have the best links :D < 1384567210 646053 :APott!6c5c4cfc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.108.92.76.252 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lets say in the source i'm analyzing there is a number that I need to perform mathematical operations with. How do I get the integer value of a string? < 1384567234 935847 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :most standard libraries have a function for that < 1384567247 778574 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :c has atoi, that sorta thing < 1384567269 683611 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :!c printf("%d",atoi("42")); < 1384567276 562100 :APott!6c5c4cfc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.108.92.76.252 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oic alright < 1384567280 60035 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :`interp c printf("%d",atoi("42")); < 1384567284 692940 :APott!6c5c4cfc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.108.92.76.252 PRIVMSG #esoteric :D has the same sort of functions in it's library < 1384567287 848418 :APott!6c5c4cfc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.108.92.76.252 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so < 1384567297 688715 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :now what < 1384567298 203384 :HackEgo!dlopen@libdl.so PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does not compile. \ ./interps/gcccomp/gcccomp: fork: retry: Resource temporarily unavailable \ ./interps/gcccomp/gcccomp: fork: retry: Resource temporarily unavailable \ ./interps/gcccomp/gcccomp: fork: retry: Resource temporarily unavailable \ ./interps/gcccomp/gcccomp: fork: retry: Resource temporarily unavailable \ ./interps/gcccomp/gcccomp: for < 1384567305 392795 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :sweet < 1384567310 905953 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: YOUR BOT IS ILL < 1384567322 580961 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you are idle < 1384567322 737257 :APott!6c5c4cfc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.108.92.76.252 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do i store this and perform operations with the float type for most accuracy? (some of this I stilld on't understand) < 1384567345 235262 :APott!6c5c4cfc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.108.92.76.252 PRIVMSG #esoteric :like "float num = atoi("42");" < 1384567369 331429 :APott!6c5c4cfc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.108.92.76.252 PRIVMSG #esoteric :num * 16.25 < 1384567385 730153 :APott!6c5c4cfc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.108.92.76.252 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anything could be several decimals long < 1384567387 64758 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :double has double accuracy to float < 1384567431 67168 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :although neither will give you exact arithmetic for huge integers. < 1384567431 809134 :APott!6c5c4cfc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.108.92.76.252 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh yeah < 1384567437 226167 :APott!6c5c4cfc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.108.92.76.252 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's true < 1384567444 772012 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: `interp c does that < 1384567446 978579 :APott!6c5c4cfc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.108.92.76.252 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it should be sufficient for my simple project < 1384567463 656483 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: what, always? i thought it worked... < 1384567465 735058 :APott!6c5c4cfc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.108.92.76.252 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well thanks for that < 1384567467 133494 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :lolfloats < 1384567472 890985 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :`interp c printf("hm"); < 1384567488 505074 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :holy cheese a new haswell costs $339 < 1384567490 196821 :HackEgo!dlopen@libdl.so PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does not compile. \ ./interps/gcccomp/gcccomp: fork: retry: Resource temporarily unavailable \ ./interps/gcccomp/gcccomp: fork: retry: Resource temporarily unavailable \ ./interps/gcccomp/gcccomp: fork: retry: Resource temporarily unavailable \ ./interps/gcccomp/gcccomp: fork: retry: Resource temporarily unavailable \ ./interps/gcccomp/gcccomp: for < 1384567493 497264 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :OKAY < 1384567542 153373 :Frooxius!~Frooxius@cust-101.ktknet.cz QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1384567564 377147 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : I call it "Little Fermat's Theorem" <-- fermat's little theorem already exists. < 1384567576 399841 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :on the other hand i can get a six core vishera for under $150 < 1384567578 846167 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :life is mysterious < 1384567616 732169 :prooftechnique!~Also@c-24-147-92-50.hsd1.vt.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: The proof was delivered childishly, so the idea is that it was delivered by a young Fermat < 1384567623 26791 :prooftechnique!~Also@c-24-147-92-50.hsd1.vt.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thus, "Little Fermat" < 1384567647 488977 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Current world record [for overclocking] is 8.79 GHz achieved on FX-8350 by Andre Yang using liquid nitrogen." why < 1384567680 428594 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :you mean why didn't he use helium, right < 1384567683 444702 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmmmmm i don't know how big the caches should be though < 1384567687 476272 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :is 8 MB sensible < 1384567722 403129 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that L2 or L3? < 1384567733 722899 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :also do the haswells really cost that much? < 1384567751 980766 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :um, L3. L2 is three 2 MB caches, presumably pairs of cores share them? < 1384567772 621614 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :that sounds like a good amount of cache to me? < 1384567778 553882 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think L2 is a lot more relevant than L3 generally, but I might be wrong < 1384567780 703709 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok i have no idea. < 1384567786 22736 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :like at all. just saying. < 1384567792 765712 :Fiora!~Fiora@ec2-50-17-93-47.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure which is more important either < 1384567802 114715 :Fiora!~Fiora@ec2-50-17-93-47.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know on like, intel ones nowadays they only have like 256K per core L2? and the huge big thing in L3 < 1384567805 151643 :Fiora!~Fiora@ec2-50-17-93-47.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :*is L3 < 1384567811 744146 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, here's a $200 haswell < 1384567820 895936 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Limit 5 per customer" < 1384567828 296215 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :pc shopping is really weird, y'all. < 1384567844 133465 :Frooxius!~Frooxius@cust-101.ktknet.cz JOIN :#esoteric < 1384567846 823938 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, you're probably right, this doesn't even mention the L2 size < 1384567847 179620 :Fiora!~Fiora@ec2-50-17-93-47.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :if I remember right the big L3s are like, also a way to use up extra die space without emitting much more power < 1384567857 152993 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but... it does mention the process size. < 1384567859 465205 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks I guess? < 1384567867 984302 :Fiora!~Fiora@ec2-50-17-93-47.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :L2 is the same on all haswells, I think? which might be why it's not mentioned < 1384567871 788442 :Fiora!~Fiora@ec2-50-17-93-47.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :while L3 varies < 1384567902 685322 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i was thinking because "256K per core" wouldn't be very impressive compared to this 2 MB per core-pair on this amd one, but that works too < 1384567921 587665 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't know why i'm even looking this up, i don't think i'll be hacking deep enough that i need to know the µarch >_> < 1384568042 497744 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://c1.neweggimages.com/BizIntell/item/19/116/19-116-901/herox.jpg the ads are fantastic though < 1384568077 181556 :prooftechnique!~Also@c-24-147-92-50.hsd1.vt.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is that guy inside the processor? < 1384568084 930827 :prooftechnique!~Also@c-24-147-92-50.hsd1.vt.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :THAT THING MUST BE SO STRONG < 1384568101 601380 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :he's the adaptive techniques. if you need more PROCESSING POWER he yells at the instruction decoder until it gets its shit together < 1384568132 102680 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :this thing lists more than one thread per core... is that that hyperthreading thing < 1384568268 575850 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe i should just buy a bunch of DSPs to fuck with instead. people still use those right. < 1384568390 30116 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: Yes, in Famicom Hangman, shorter words/phrases get you more tries than longer ones. < 1384568520 475511 :prooftechnique!~Also@c-24-147-92-50.hsd1.vt.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://gs1.wac.edgecastcdn.net/8019B6/data.tumblr.com/a3ec9cd009cad7b4825479fae0a4b632/tumblr_inline_mvj43rbyXS1qik0w4.jpg < 1384568529 488416 :prooftechnique!~Also@c-24-147-92-50.hsd1.vt.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I love the precision of these Finns < 1384568558 929355 :prooftechnique!~Also@c-24-147-92-50.hsd1.vt.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm a bit surprised that those two on the end are standing together < 1384568790 17196 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :i uploaded two example programs to go with the SELECT. interpreter. these two work. just wish someone would write one that tests some other language features :D. http://rutteric.com/files/ < 1384569445 857549 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1384569780 564907 :APott!6c5c4cfc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.108.92.76.252 QUIT :Quit: Page closed < 1384570069 725925 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Have you played hangman games with a time limit? < 1384571795 123672 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Using the symbols &|!()10 only, can anything be made in Perl other than only the boolean condition checking if a 1 and 0 is only by itself? < 1384572379 412994 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps ask in #perl < 1384572386 647620 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK I can try < 1384572798 220411 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :In the Dungeons&Dragons game I was trying to add more tally marks. The DM said there was room for 818 in total. This doesn't seem right to me, since 818 isn't a multiple of five. < 1384573409 727393 :conehead!~conehead@unaffiliated/conehead QUIT :Quit: Computer has gone to sleep. < 1384573547 898451 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh. church's thesis doesn't hold in a newtonian universe. neat. < 1384573600 976095 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bike: huh, howso? < 1384573625 291279 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"We will sketch a proof (it is based on Gerver’s proof of the ‘‘Painleve con- < 1384573628 463609 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :jecture’’ in the plane) of Theorem 4 that an uncountably infinite number of topologically distinct trajectories are < 1384573631 450356 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :possible in 1 s, among the planar N-body problems with fixed masses and whose initial locations lie within < 1384573634 452510 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :certain disjoint balls and whose velocities are bounded < 1384573640 124785 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :[period] < 1384573647 252181 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't like pasting the sentences on periods, it's a bad habit < 1384573772 864153 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, what does that have to do with the Church-Turing thesis? < 1384573780 51053 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :or is this some other thesis of Church's? < 1384573797 938507 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it means a turing machine can't simulate the topological properties of the bodies' trajectories < 1384573801 42797 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(in finite time) < 1384573890 104875 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and the initial configuration isn't even uncomputable, sweet < 1384574535 540721 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :What do people here think about Elixir? < 1384574560 408261 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like panaceas but I don't think they exist. < 1384574569 863227 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :the language < 1384574589 213966 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :The language of the birds? < 1384574962 419415 :prooftechnique!~Also@c-24-147-92-50.hsd1.vt.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: I think the first Elixir demo I saw was pulling some data directly from some web service and turning it into code with macros < 1384574977 458651 :prooftechnique!~Also@c-24-147-92-50.hsd1.vt.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the first reddit comment was "Oh, god, please never actually do this" < 1384574997 690946 :prooftechnique!~Also@c-24-147-92-50.hsd1.vt.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It looks like a nicer way to write Erlang, if nothing else < 1384575064 567564 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i like that on mushroomobserver.org if you don't know what kind of mushroom is in your photo you can put "Agaricales sensu lato" < 1384575072 985594 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is latin for "looks like a mushroom, I guess" < 1384575096 42046 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(okay it's latin for "agarics, in the loose sense") < 1384575108 806604 :prooftechnique!~Also@c-24-147-92-50.hsd1.vt.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like your translation better < 1384575131 868963 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you're extra unsure you can just put "fungi" instead < 1384575142 498779 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there a designation above kingdom which includes all life < 1384575158 438859 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cladistics people usually just go for "unranked" i think < 1384575168 567943 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :since i mean, it's a tree, the levels are gonna get hairy anyway. < 1384575191 541765 :prooftechnique!~Also@c-24-147-92-50.hsd1.vt.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Well, domains are above kingoms < 1384575192 638919 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: there's http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-domain_system at least? < 1384575194 483973 :prooftechnique!~Also@c-24-147-92-50.hsd1.vt.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :*kingdoms < 1384575195 622799 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :also using latin to obscure that you mean something boringly obvious is kind of great. incertae cedis~ < 1384575204 73580 :prooftechnique!~Also@c-24-147-92-50.hsd1.vt.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And then "Life" is above that < 1384575214 935031 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :i should really hit up some taxonomists on twitter to see wtf they do in the presence of cladistics < 1384575238 904044 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But what about maybe-life? < 1384575251 726045 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mammal_Diversity_2011.png mammal diversity < 1384575252 629740 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :viruses are a whole different ballgame. < 1384575260 894130 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :they change way faster than the rest, for one. < 1384575268 796591 :prooftechnique!~Also@c-24-147-92-50.hsd1.vt.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bike: Shouldn't that be cedis? < 1384575274 439593 :prooftechnique!~Also@c-24-147-92-50.hsd1.vt.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :*sedis < 1384575276 206140 :prooftechnique!~Also@c-24-147-92-50.hsd1.vt.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't type < 1384575286 131931 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :petition to designate richard nixon as the type specimen for H. sapiens < 1384575292 823728 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't that what i typed... oh, oops, yes sedis < 1384575306 564302 :prooftechnique!~Also@c-24-147-92-50.hsd1.vt.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :We both did it :/ < 1384575313 537755 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: also viruses may be paraphyletic which is pretty cool imo < 1384575347 966590 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is cool < 1384575349 235772 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :i actually have no idea about viral taxonomy. i'd grab a book on it if i didn't already have five books checked out < 1384575357 442029 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't take long for things like viruses to evolve in artificial life systems < 1384575378 129115 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it kind of ties into abiogenesis stuff. like, were virus-like things first, or did they arise from bacteria, or what. < 1384575382 148844 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1384575386 912635 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bike: I read the wiki page for paraphyly, still don't know what you mean by that < 1384575412 602756 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: viruses being paraphyletic would mean that the last common ancestor of all viruses is not a virus, i.e. that virality arose several times independently. < 1384575413 772116 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :so why has something like life only evolved once on earth, anyway? is it just that it took a really long time? or is it that anything life-like which starts out today gets eaten by the usual kind of life? < 1384575441 818204 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah < 1384575442 264980 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(how would you designate the latter, anyway? "nucleic acid life"?) < 1384575444 942857 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: (or er that the tree of ancestry includes non-viruses anyway) < 1384575467 421594 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: i've thought about that a decent amount, but part of it is you have to qualify the universality of life < 1384575468 784357 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it's like asking why nobody has replaced UNIX < 1384575475 209618 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean, we pretty much all use RNA < 1384575485 337436 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :BUT sometimes the amino acid coding is different! < 1384575490 913758 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1384575493 139167 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's pretty cool < 1384575521 216994 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :And some things, like lipid bilayers, those are just... convenient. I'm not sure how they would be replaced. < 1384575586 569673 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it probably comes down to "we don't know enough about abiogenesis to make decent guesses" though, which suckz < 1384575638 442787 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1384575659 599887 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :there was that one abiogenesis experiment but it turned out to be wrong? i have a great memory of high school bio class as you can tell < 1384575668 831494 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :You mean Miller-Urey? < 1384575675 966932 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the "throw some gas in a tube and get amino acids" thing. < 1384575806 590241 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1384575967 606067 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah the conditions they used weren't really very early-earth-like, and besides that life is rather more complicated than a couple monomers < 1384576007 709107 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :living organisms obviously have their bilayers and their nucleotides, but even with just proteins you need a damn complex system (itself made mostly of proteins) to make everything fold right... < 1384576050 702373 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1384576061 732933 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's the theory that RNA itself served as the enzymes at first, right? < 1384576137 450173 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. and rna even still does that in living organisms. < 1384576142 292663 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :really < 1384576153 495294 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's cool < 1384576157 188692 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah they call them 'ribozymes' < 1384576173 139080 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because... I dunno? I guess having an r plus the zy makes it even cooler sounding. < 1384576173 298044 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the advantage of protein enzymes < 1384576188 543885 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :advantage of DNA over RNA for data storage is durability? < 1384576223 453370 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's about where my cargo culted molecular bio runs out i'm afraid < 1384576228 111678 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1384576235 367254 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :i kind of think of proteins as being more... flexible < 1384576265 694905 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :when you really look at how a protein works, often it's made up of like four separate "domains" that each do their own thing, have their own binding sites, but can induce conformational changes in the other domains (i think) and stuff like that < 1384576280 222260 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :iunno if you could replace titin with rna, basically < 1384576402 158425 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :mm < 1384576413 119270 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :proteins are like, really complicated /mechanically/, and i don't know if you can do that while staying hereditarily stable, i guess... < 1384576428 596609 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah yes < 1384576471 192157 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe it's like, separation of concerns. which is vague and the analogy hardly works at all god < 1384576523 837895 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if you're doing a translation thing anyway then maybe amino acids are a more flexible thing to translate to < 1384576555 616483 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bike: i was gonna make an analogy to hereditary source code vs. ephemeral build products but that's even worse ;) < 1384576645 945730 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm kind of thinking of this like, here's gentoo on a macbook, now figure out how MULTICS worked. < 1384576653 125222 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1384576678 755752 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and your main tool is, you can break parts of the macbook and see what still functions < 1384576778 555371 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you also have the fossil record, which is a bunch of partially accurate descriptions of how older linux distributions functioned you found on some help forums. < 1384576809 134791 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1384576819 289945 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay time to ride some trains, ttyl all < 1384576822 642209 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :have fun < 1384577769 122991 :prooftechnique!~Also@c-24-147-92-50.hsd1.vt.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let hangman (x:xs) (y:ys) c | y == c = c : hangman xs ys c | otherwise = x : hangman xs ys c; hangman _ _ _ = ""; in hangman "____" "jazz" 'z' -- augur_ < 1384577770 407858 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric : "__zz" < 1384577803 289808 :augur_!~augur@216-164-48-148.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :prooftechnique: what < 1384577814 408174 :prooftechnique!~Also@c-24-147-92-50.hsd1.vt.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur_: For the next time we play hangman < 1384577823 931237 :prooftechnique!~Also@c-24-147-92-50.hsd1.vt.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :A terrible code snippet that will do the work for you < 1384577842 907057 :augur_!~augur@216-164-48-148.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :prooftechnique: what does it do exactly < 1384577869 137472 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you give it blanks, the real word, and a chosen letter, and it computes the filled in letters bla bla bla. < 1384577874 401373 :prooftechnique!~Also@c-24-147-92-50.hsd1.vt.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ < 1384577889 618208 :augur_!~augur@216-164-48-148.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh oh i see what you mean < 1384577901 775688 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :It'll be a big help when you play against me. "methylenedioxymethamphetamine" is easy to remember, but the longer ones, welllll < 1384577927 37589 :augur_!~augur@216-164-48-148.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :its methylene-dioxy-3,4-n-methylamphetamine, to be precise < 1384577960 635357 :augur_!~augur@216-164-48-148.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :or 3,4 at the beginning, take your pick < 1384577962 899018 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's party dust mother fucker < 1384579226 302422 :doesthiswork!~Adium@98.145.118.186 QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1384579419 68013 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Thus there exist initial configurations of N bodies in the plane in which several of the bodies will hit the unit circle within 1.2 s iff the Riemann hypothesis is false (and the trajectories may be interpreted as a description of a counterexample)" < 1384579523 981057 :Fiora!~Fiora@ec2-50-17-93-47.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :does that require real number computation? < 1384579565 588724 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, but the initial configuration can be computable. < 1384579575 259234 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously this isn't actually a practical help towards /finding/ a counterexample, but. < 1384579635 248925 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm, the state of unsimulatable initial configurations is of measure zero though.. < 1384579638 249339 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :this paper is weird. < 1384579744 614845 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :also kind of informal. «The third and most complicated set of laws we discuss (and the one we will concentrate on) is "modified linearized general relativity", which has all the mathematically annoying features of SRTG, and also has tensors.» < 1384579902 2335 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.theonion.com/articles/barbershop-pole-finally-runs-out,34491/ < 1384579979 716257 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fiora: i think this stuff basically comes about because of the newtonian-physics-allows-infinite-energy thing. < 1384580582 763898 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1384580850 340206 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1384580889 838524 :Jafet!~jafet@static.77.207.4.46.clients.your-server.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1384581855 992724 :nisstyre!~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre JOIN :#esoteric < 1384582474 619112 :Jafet!~jafet@static.77.207.4.46.clients.your-server.de PART :#esoteric < 1384584073 846687 :asie!~textual@178235038113.elblag.vectranet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1384584350 662435 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :A computer program just called me a distinguished Haskell coder < 1384584355 785917 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Based on ... not very much < 1384584360 988624 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :What program? < 1384584361 378085 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://osrc.dfm.io/Sgeo < 1384584371 666589 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Open Source Report Card < 1384584393 144166 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is it based on? < 1384584413 588697 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :GitHub profile < 1384584460 516762 :Fiora!~Fiora@ec2-50-17-93-47.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bike: how does that thing work? < 1384584478 448115 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the infinite energy thing < 1384584479 227076 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1384584499 520768 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not everyone has GitHub profiles though, and there may also be many programming languages that GitHub profiles do not yet include. < 1384584532 288386 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I tried to read Xia's paper once but it was beyond me < 1384584563 585284 :Fiora!~Fiora@ec2-50-17-93-47.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1384584569 398371 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Basically, with the right initial conditions (and the paper is about what these conditions are) you can get an object infinitely far away in finite time < 1384584577 475365 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but of course, that's just restating "infinite energy". < 1384584730 215028 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did get far enough to read that Xia's construction uses five bodies and is symmetrical across one axis. < 1384584756 663503 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I kind of imagine four bodies moving back and forth as the last goes straight between them, getting faster and faster exponentially (or uh, superexponentially i guess?) < 1384584793 795834 :Fiora!~Fiora@ec2-50-17-93-47.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that possible without arbitrarily small distances between objects? < 1384584819 521666 :Fiora!~Fiora@ec2-50-17-93-47.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :like. if you apply a constraint like the planck length does it stil work < 1384584851 227947 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would probably be a whole other paper. the classical n-body equations are in continuous spacetime. < 1384584861 477652 :Fiora!~Fiora@ec2-50-17-93-47.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh. so it's not like. realistic < 1384584869 288245 :Fiora!~Fiora@ec2-50-17-93-47.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess? < 1384584879 638748 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Newtonian physics is unrealistic to begin with, though. < 1384584887 740735 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because, I mean. Einstein. < 1384584949 471150 :Fiora!~Fiora@ec2-50-17-93-47.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh. so like, relativity doesn't have that ""vulnerability""? < 1384584973 420804 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can't exactly get to an infinite speed, now can you? < 1384585025 166268 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :xia's paper is http://www.jstor.org/stable/2946572 if you want to take a crack but it's long and hard < 1384585565 79110 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, there's a short explanation of another construction in this paper... < 1384585572 638818 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it involves arranging things so that an asteroid moves polygonally. @_@ < 1384585582 579035 :Fiora!~Fiora@ec2-50-17-93-47.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :@_@ < 1384585623 780924 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :And uh the infinitizing comes by... < 1384585634 864937 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :As a consequence of properties I–III, the entire N-gon expands in roughly geometric progression to infinite < 1384585638 58924 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :size, but the asteroid traverses the N-gon edges in durations of time which shrink roughly geometrically < 1384585641 63688 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :toward zero. In consequence, the asteroid travels an infinite number of circuits around the N-gon (and this < 1384585644 67173 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :is an infinite distance), as the N-gon grows to infinite size, in a finite time tsingular, < 1384585684 184411 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, that's basically insane. < 1384585788 190351 :Fiora!~Fiora@ec2-50-17-93-47.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :so like does this mean newtonian mechanics doesn't conserve energy? < 1384585837 436655 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Um... I think in this construction, as the asteroid speeds up super fast the stars it's orbiting slow down. < 1384585854 511646 :Fiora!~Fiora@ec2-50-17-93-47.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :does that mean you need an infinite number of stars or something? < 1384585862 764021 :Fiora!~Fiora@ec2-50-17-93-47.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :since like, the energy has to come from somewhere < 1384585897 386709 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it comes from the stars slowing down. i think. < 1384585902 911148 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does it violate things like that? Without doing such an experiment, or proving it mathematically inconsistent, it isn'ta reason to call such a theory wrong. (Now we do, but that doesn't seem a way?) < 1384585908 741709 :Fiora!~Fiora@ec2-50-17-93-47.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the stars start with an infinite amount of energy... (???) < 1384585931 494517 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: you're going to need to rephrase that more readably < 1384585937 593290 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fiora: i don't know. math is hard < 1384585952 34117 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :pretty sure newton is supposed to conserve energy though so lol i dunno < 1384585957 430283 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe i was wrong in talking about infinite energy < 1384585999 247319 :Fiora!~Fiora@ec2-50-17-93-47.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe just, like, unbounded? < 1384586009 449919 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe. < 1384586014 791668 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bike: What, is he running out of food or something? < 1384586025 276625 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is a joke i do not understand < 1384586047 856920 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bike: O, I thought it is clear to me at least. < 1384586066 905096 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not very good anyway < 1384586072 509672 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"A baseball player on a frictionless plane surface flings a ball against a wall repeatedly" physics.jpg < 1384587328 877641 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.theonion.com/articles/man-who-drinks-5-diet-cokes-per-day-hoping-doctors,34570/ this is me < 1384587375 453356 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hoping doctors are what? < 1384587393 622861 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :"working on a cure for whatever he's getting" < 1384587398 435828 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's an expressio, zzo38. < 1384587406 68353 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like "raining cats and dogs". < 1384587430 100877 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :n < 1384587468 762357 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: i learned to play Magic: The Gathering < 1384587496 538459 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you any good at it? < 1384587531 605194 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably not < 1384587777 127905 :doesthiswork!~Adium@98.145.118.186 JOIN :#esoteric < 1384587779 320791 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Do you think some of the rules are too klugy? < 1384587795 871040 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :@wn klugy < 1384587805 202560 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: :'( < 1384587810 949203 :doesthiswork!~Adium@98.145.118.186 QUIT :Client Quit < 1384587891 875025 :asie!~textual@178235038113.elblag.vectranet.pl QUIT :Quit: I'll probably come back in either 20 minutes or 8 hours. < 1384587981 686292 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: It's v. complicated. < 1384588058 747904 :nisstyre!~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1384588684 436774 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i used to play mtg < 1384588690 733047 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i even have cards and stuff < 1384588715 581479 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no cards, but I sometimes do play the game (not very commonly though). < 1384588779 942604 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=3315 i have this guy < 1384588815 391745 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i played this as a kid and i always mainly tried to manage to play that < 1384588829 121532 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: Is "unaffected by summoning sickness" distinct from "Haste"? < 1384588843 750897 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :it may be the old name < 1384588845 467183 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :that card is too good < 1384588845 840041 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haste makes it unaffected by summoning sickness. < 1384588851 699514 :asie!~textual@178235038113.elblag.vectranet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1384588868 515605 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i also had 4 cards that simply let you play that card < 1384588885 482061 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haste is a very old mechanic, and has existed at least since 4th Edition on Ball Lightning. However the Haste keyword was not added until much later. < 1384588890 545883 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://mtg.wikia.com/wiki/Haste < 1384588928 743763 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Summoning sickness is given to all permanents when they enter play/are created. At end of each turn, all permanents lose summoning sickness. Creatures with summoning sickness cannot attack, and any abilities with the tap symbol in their cost are unusable if it is a creature.) < 1384588942 346843 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: All permanents? I thought it was just creatures? < 1384588982 78668 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, "unusable if it is a creature". So non-creatures have summoning sickness but it's unobservable? < 1384589000 64318 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1384589036 507694 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Yes, like that. It is also unused if the permanent has the Haste ability. < 1384589059 274553 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :most of my friends play all sorts of rpg and card games and watch anime and stuff < 1384589081 819986 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: do you know things about chu spaces < 1384589085 122171 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and dota2 < 1384589091 41929 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :and other computer games < 1384589097 430324 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i doubt i do < 1384589161 638302 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: well anyway can you define a topological space/system/thingy as a product of some C and D^op < 1384589169 522077 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :my first impression is that chu spaces sound a bit silly, topological spaces are already much more general than you need in real life < 1384589181 26818 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :(usually) < 1384589187 916233 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: well look at the definition of a morphism though! what's with that < 1384589223 589437 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :of morphisms between chu spaces? < 1384589227 899652 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1384589234 507778 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :let's see < 1384589246 187301 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Understood statically, a Chu space (A, r, X) over a set K consists of a set A of points, a set X of states, and a function r : A × X → K. This makes it an A × X matrix with entries drawn from K, or equivalently a K-valued binary relation between A and X (ordinary binary relations being 2-valued). < 1384589260 821640 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay maybe i should first try to parse that < 1384589262 80028 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's sort of like an adjunction (can you make it an actual adjunctiony thing by having p/q in p(f(a),b) = q(a,g(b)) be functors sort of like hom functors) < 1384589277 413143 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you asking me? :P < 1384589288 69205 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe. < 1384589293 296693 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :i can't even make sense of the binary relation crap < 1384589303 776395 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: Well, the "topological system" thing in this book is less general than Chu spaces. < 1384589342 30246 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :In particular, there's a "frame" -- a lattice that has finite meets and arbitrary joins, such that meets distribute over joins -- and a set of "points" < 1384589344 318416 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bike: it just calls a function a binary K-valued relation. < 1384589355 15546 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but why < 1384589359 510178 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean a function from A times X to K is called a binary K-valued relation < 1384589362 709272 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't know why < 1384589370 591801 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where the frame corresponds to the topology, of course. < 1384589451 514700 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :So you have (X,A) where X is a set of points and A is a lattice of "opens" (which aren't sets, just things). And you have a "satisfies" relation, x |= a, that tells you whether a point satisfies an open. < 1384589480 929352 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could say that points are what things "are" and opens are what observations you can make of them. < 1384589491 48057 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :so A and X are the other way around than in wikipedia? < 1384589509 792421 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :IS THAT IMPORTANT < 1384589510 743421 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let me see. < 1384589517 92417 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, I just used the other letters. < 1384589531 909576 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so what do you get out of this < 1384589537 512739 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The definition of Chu space is completely symmetrical so it doesn't matter. < 1384589550 281763 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But this one isn't, since you have a set and a frame. < 1384589565 809030 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay so that's something between a topological spaces and a pointless topological space i guess < 1384589574 9513 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. < 1384589585 950348 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :In fact if X = {} you get a pointless topological space, I guess. < 1384589594 682174 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps it's exactly the latter (it's properly more general than the former though) < 1384589607 608646 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1384589616 112970 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh err. < 1384589658 163706 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i figured two opens are indeed distinct iff they have different points (they are then sets, but it's still more general than the usual notion of topology) < 1384589661 179407 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think there's some adjunction relation with functors between this thing and topological spaces and locales being forgetful/free or something. I don't remember. < 1384589680 412757 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, you could have distinct opens that satisfy the same points. < 1384589685 199391 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :alrighty < 1384589687 341386 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Er, that are satisfied by. < 1384589698 642013 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you have U < V even if U has more points < 1384589705 52019 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's the "that the open sets be extensional" part of the Chu space page. < 1384589705 851513 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the lattice < 1384589743 669125 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, I'm not sure. < 1384589747 715943 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :or does the frame somehow be a refinement of a sublattice of the lattice of subsets of X at least (if that makes sense.) < 1384589755 946789 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :"does it be" < 1384589781 577015 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :good lyric < 1384589823 315970 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, there are requirements on |= < 1384589862 713972 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :"If S is a finite subset of A, then x |= Join S <-> x |= a for all a in S" < 1384589879 340421 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sorry, "Meet" < 1384589887 211439 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :"If S is a finite subset of A, then x |= Meet S <-> x |= a for all a in S" < 1384589913 299335 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :"If S is any subset of A, then x |= Join S <-> x |= a for some a in S" < 1384589933 656460 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay the morphisms of chu spaces certainly seem adjunctive. however, i do not quite get them yet. < 1384589961 839957 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, the definition is pretty intuitive from the perspective of topological systems, at least. < 1384589981 444146 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you think of opens as "finite observations" that you can make about points. < 1384589987 815673 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :("adjunctive" in a very non-mathematical sense that this looks vaguely similar to some things i've seen when trying to understand adjunctions.) < 1384589994 679030 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Right.) < 1384590038 44111 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :So you might have bit streams as points, and "starts with 00101" as an open. < 1384590064 331943 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But "the stream is all 0s" not as an open, because it observes an infinite amount of information, say. < 1384590083 242853 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay "x |= Join S <-> x |= a for all a in S" and "x |= Meet S <-> x |= a for all a in S" makes things pretty simple < 1384590085 519467 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or "this real number is within the interval (x-d,x+d)" < 1384590099 196590 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :but perhaps that's a typo. < 1384590112 302854 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, one of them was wrong. < 1384590124 169985 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it seems that joins are really set-theoretical joins and meets are really set-theoretical meets, and the lattice is there only for presentational reasons? < 1384590140 969321 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean associate with each open the set of points that satisfy it < 1384590148 396957 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :By set-theorical joins/meets do you mean unions/intersections? < 1384590159 602364 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :now the join of 2 opens is open, and is satisfied by exactly the union < 1384590162 488416 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1384590184 866017 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, clearly for any topological space (X,ΩX), (X,ΩX,∈) is a "topological system". < 1384590212 633007 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But even if the set of points is empty you can have lots of different topological systems with different frames. < 1384590224 651911 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i thought the definition of join and meet was w.r.t. the lattice itself (in the abstract sense), so that they are just minimal upper bound etc.. then you get some weird additional stuff for i think. < 1384590226 708693 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since there's no requirement that opens are extensional. < 1384590228 641384 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :*-for < 1384590261 250734 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure what you mean? < 1384590269 298716 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it doesn't matter < 1384590285 933968 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :the current definition is interesting enough < 1384590322 93078 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway so if you think of opens as observations that you ought to be able to make, then you might ask what a structure-preserving function between (X,A) and (Y,B) could be. < 1384590345 130895 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Clearly it maps points to points, so you have f : X -> Y < 1384590394 604164 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But if b is some B-open, and f(x) |= b, then that's a finite observation you were able to make (by using f and an observation in (Y,B)). < 1384590413 18212 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :(About x.) < 1384590422 950645 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1384590427 562467 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :So there ought to be some A-open that x satisfies, if it's structure-preserving. < 1384590448 4729 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh that's the role of the backmap < 1384590453 588194 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :should'be < 1384590455 500338 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1384590459 732984 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :should've been obvious i guess < 1384590460 409108 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :In particular, given f, there ought to be some thing g : B -> A such that f(x) |= b iff x |= g(b) < 1384590464 578714 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. < 1384590482 936254 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it works out nicely for g to be a frame homomorphism, of course. < 1384590539 402069 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :So a "continuous function" between (X,A) and (Y,B) is defined to be (f : X -> Y, g : B -> A) such that f(x) |= b iff x |= g(b) < 1384590540 711569 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's something we require i guess? < 1384590547 20381 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :(And g is a frame homomorphism.) < 1384590595 294745 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1384590618 302 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay in the case of usual topology, g is precisely the map that maps an open to its f-preimage i guess < 1384590623 342118 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you take a topological space, so that b is an open set, then clearly this is just defining g to be -- right. < 1384590656 482032 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :So the morphism is entirely defined by f. < 1384590666 887578 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :welllll < 1384590691 113434 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :if the frame is like injective in the sense that no two opens have the same points < 1384590697 791947 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :then i guess it's determined by f < 1384590709 395645 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean in the case of a usual topological space. < 1384590712 443344 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1384590713 420427 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :In general it isn't, of course. < 1384590721 129106 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :(For example when X is empty.) < 1384590725 2188 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :in general, i guess you explicitly require that it's a lattice homomorphism? < 1384590741 493160 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :g? A frame homomorphism, yes. < 1384590793 764319 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :The counterpart of a continuous function from (A, r, X) to (B, s, Y) is a pair (f, g) of functions f : A → B, g : Y → X satisfying the adjointness condition s(f(a), y) = r(a, g(y)) for all a ∈ A and y ∈ Y. < 1384590798 345245 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay i totally get this now < 1384590809 906678 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :that looked really weird a few minutes ago. < 1384590847 771582 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right, so a Chu space generalizes a frame to not necessarily be a frame, and generalizes |= : (A,X) -> Bool to |= : (A,X) -> K < 1384590896 674954 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw < 1384590903 131708 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :let X be a topological space and Y a subset < 1384590924 916637 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you get a topological system on Y by taking as the frame the opens of X < 1384590930 274869 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :with their order < 1384590968 589841 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :the frame is always the same as it was in X, but for example if Y = {} then the satisfaction relation is pretty trivial. < 1384590975 684174 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps all topological systems arise this way? < 1384591063 150238 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, it's possible. I don't know. < 1384591084 984272 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :in general topology, subspaces are defined the same way (except you add Y as an open set), but some open sets of X become the same set for Y; now you just don't identify them. and i guess it makes sense for the "frame" of the sub-topological system to be the same as the frame of the original space. < 1384591132 718944 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :(makes sense in the sense that the word "frame" could be considered to suggest that) < 1384591149 830446 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or it could be considered to suggest anything else i guess) < 1384591245 526604 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think possibly this book talks about that but I've only read some of it so far. < 1384591274 496973 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :so which book < 1384591285 521726 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Topology via Logic < 1384591365 973747 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :So this "adjointness condition" thing and the backwards-and-forwards maps thing are a bit strange. < 1384591379 392663 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't really get adjointness < 1384591407 37543 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It sounds like maybe you could define it as some product C × D^op or something, if you could figure out a nice way of talking about the extra condition. < 1384591418 404398 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :(i've tried to get it quite a few times) < 1384591462 775993 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The usual definition of an adjunction F -| G is that Hom(F(A), B) ≅ Hom(A, G(B)), natural in A and B < 1384591467 779006 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Where F and G are functors, of course.) < 1384591480 305912 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw i've noticed you're on #categorytheory, did you perhaps mention the channel at some point? i have no idea why i'm there myself < 1384591497 595214 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah but what's "natural in A and B" < 1384591522 118690 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :So this is very similar, except it's dealing with functions instead of functors, and it generalizes Hom_C/Hom_D to s/r. < 1384591523 708935 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :something that takes a page to define and a week to take in, and then it's obvious? < 1384591545 61038 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it means you have a natural isomorphism between functors. < 1384591551 168083 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know if I mentioned ##categorytheory in here. < 1384591565 620273 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :between what functors < 1384591568 541260 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Naturality does take a bit to take in. < 1384591572 893051 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hom(F(A), B) is not a functor, it's a set. < 1384591587 546709 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The functors \a b -> Hom(F(a), b) < 1384591596 99396 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is : C^op x D -> Set < 1384591601 940364 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh. < 1384591612 747464 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Er, and the other Hom functor which gets the same type, of course. < 1384591662 110266 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's actually something that sounds understandable < 1384591707 937541 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Usually people write it Hom(F(-), -) and so on < 1384591723 80574 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :When you say "natural in X" it means that X is implicitly an argument. < 1384591741 999327 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you have to guess what categories are dualed < 1384591744 272657 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :And that you have a natural transformation. < 1384591752 62513 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1384591756 815115 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess there's no choice... < 1384591761 427815 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, Hom_C : C^op x C -> Set < 1384591802 51116 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :And F : D -> C, and we overload that to mean F : D^op -> C^op because it's the same thing. < 1384591819 943588 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure < 1384591828 537832 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess you could write Hom(F^op(-), -) ≅ Hom(-, G(-)) < 1384591870 801537 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not sure that's helpful though (is it unambiguous even?) < 1384591902 552882 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess it is < 1384591919 986676 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not very standard because it's usually pretty obvious which way F is being used. < 1384591959 514128 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :obvious to some < 1384591976 561823 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :not obvious to slow noobs < 1384592060 824451 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, it seems pretty related to this whole topological system and/or Chu space thing. < 1384592066 348796 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :so F and G are adjoint if the functors \a b -> Hom(F^op(a), b) and \a b -> Hom(a, G(b)) are adjoint, as functors C^op \times D \to Set < 1384592070 587255 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that the definition < 1384592079 482272 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are naturally isomorphic. < 1384592086 147444 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm right < 1384592088 266915 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :;D < 1384592109 587842 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's a definition. < 1384592118 626451 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adjoint_functors#Hom-set_adjunction < 1384592124 509192 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :naturally isomorphic = there's a natural transformation from F to G such that every object map F(x) \to G(x) is an isomorphism < 1384592142 829887 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That sounds right. < 1384592211 158032 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :(A natural isomorphism is probably defined as a pair (f : F -> G,g : G -> F) such that f . g = id, g . f = id with natural transformation composition. But I think that works out to the same thing.) < 1384592222 30005 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay i guess that explains everything you just did < 1384592236 142145 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i haven't looked very closely at that definition, just the previous one < 1384592238 991653 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's too complicated < 1384592277 569951 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The unit-counit one is also nice but from a different perspective. < 1384592294 167017 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is probably the simplest definition. < 1384592319 239713 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Note that when F has an inverse, it's always adjoint to its inverse. < 1384592328 120011 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably, at least it looks like something i could understand if i spent half an hour looking at mental images of diagrams < 1384592336 526899 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :might be a useful half an hour < 1384592353 392324 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :adjoints are in some sense unique right < 1384592360 820506 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But if it doesn't have an inverse it might still have adjoints which you can think of as a best effort at an inverse or something. < 1384592366 225439 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1384592414 74219 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't actually know what an inverse functor is, or at least what precisely should be required from one < 1384592438 64824 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :in any case again that clarifies a lot < 1384592489 859575 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, the most obvious definition would be that you have an isomorphism between categories. < 1384592515 511533 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I.e. F . G = id, id = G . F < 1384592527 115093 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess F's inverse if G such that F \circ G and G \circ F are naturally isomorphic to the identity functors? < 1384592537 314606 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh err exactly equal? < 1384592551 244991 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh okay you mean that's the obvious one < 1384592564 331172 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, "exactly equal" is in practice too strong, you just want "naturally isomorphic". < 1384592567 369663 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :right. < 1384592576 476687 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that you get for example equivalence with skeleton < 1384592591 909953 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you pick "exactly equal" you get isomorphism of categories, which isn't really what you want in practice, so you use "naturally isomorphic" to get equivalent of categories. < 1384592615 12756 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :And if you have F,G that give you an equivalence of categories then they're adjoint too. < 1384592640 119396 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can often think of the special case of categories which are posets, and functors which are monotonic functions. < 1384592666 220515 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where "≅" turns into "iff" and these are called "Galois connections" and people say it's simpler. < 1384592679 795682 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :dude you are so wise < 1384592709 836550 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :galois connections are awesome i hear < 1384592726 316413 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hear that too but I don't understand them all that well. < 1384592787 73759 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, if you think of some way to relax "F . G ≅ id" and "id ≅ G . F", you might end up saying that those should just be natural transformations instead of isomorphisms. < 1384592799 258092 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's the unit-counit of the other definition. < 1384592814 405355 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :eps : F . G -> 1, eta : 1 -> G . F < 1384592845 949896 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can think of it in the case of posets as relaxing f(g(x)) = x and x = g(f(x)) to f(g(x)) ≤ x and x ≤ g(f(x)) < 1384592879 54353 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh okay < 1384592887 258156 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :And there are some laws, namely that if you eta-and-then-eps you end up where you started. < 1384592911 120268 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except they work in different categories, so it's more like "eps . fmap eta = id" and "fmap eps . eta = id" < 1384592929 487035 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I.e. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:AdjointFunctorSymmetry.png < 1384592954 160721 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Going back and forth between these definitions is a good way to figure them out. < 1384592996 824031 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :fmap? < 1384593015 712482 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, that's how you write it in Haskell. < 1384593038 871661 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's "eps . F eta" and "G eps . eta", or maybe the other way around. < 1384593100 703799 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually it's not exactly eps, it's eps-of-F-of, but anyway when you try to work out how these things could possibly compose there's only one way that makes sense. < 1384593178 793297 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, I guess talking about this helped me figure out part of my question. < 1384593207 523934 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not really used to thinking about what makes sense when taking in definitions < 1384593231 463313 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, well, take the exact definition from Wikipedia or nlab. < 1384593302 636098 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The definition of continuous function didn't quite make sense to me until I saw the topological system formulation of it. < 1384593319 707965 :asie!~textual@178235038113.elblag.vectranet.pl QUIT :Quit: I'll probably come back in either 20 minutes or 8 hours. < 1384593325 282046 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where it's vaguely obvious -- it's just a structure-preserving map as usual. < 1384593504 63779 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's F eta < 1384593524 368106 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :eta is a functor from D to itself < 1384593527 79875 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1384593530 144168 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :what am i saying < 1384593534 358423 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :eta is a natural transformation < 1384593559 174519 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :eta is a natural transformation from 1_D to GF < 1384593564 177593 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1384593576 25015 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :and now we're composing if with a functor from D to C < 1384593577 640285 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_transformation#Operations_with_natural_transformations for the notation used in that article. < 1384593606 274617 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :(F eta)_x means F (eta_x) < 1384593612 309683 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :(i've gone down this road but i usually lose patience at some point :P) < 1384593642 905232 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :So for eta : G -> H, F eta : F.G -> F.H < 1384593672 432358 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :And (eta F)_x = eta_(Fx) < 1384593730 765512 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :eta F : G.F -> H.F < 1384593745 594790 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I'm explaining this much more confusingly than Wikipedia so just read that.) < 1384593821 743459 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it's helpful to have someone be all like lol this is easy < 1384593833 318574 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :usually i don't have much pressure to learn this since i don't know anyone who knows category theory < 1384593873 962331 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know category theory. :-( Sometimes I pretend to know a bit on IRC. < 1384593910 998436 :prooftechnique!~Also@c-24-147-92-50.hsd1.vt.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pullbacks! < 1384593912 490747 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it certainly seems like it's relevant here to the whole adjointness thing. < 1384593976 901920 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe you can generalize Chu spaces to work in arbitrary categories, with p/q being functors rather than functions? < 1384594018 805215 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean the ones in p(f(a), b) = q(a, g(b)) < 1384594031 692164 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except this is already more general than adjunctions in a couple of ways. < 1384594068 318786 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Talking about f . g doesn't even make sense here because A/B and X/Y are two different kinds of things, not necessarily both categories/sets/whatever. < 1384594102 998405 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :And p/q aren't Hom, they're just functions. < 1384594152 859731 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Saying that p/q are "2-valued" as opposed to "K-valued" seems a bit like talking about posets/preörders instead of general categories.) < 1384594250 540645 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let's put the contravariant argument first to make it more like Hom. < 1384594297 701420 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :So a space-system-thingy is (A,X,p : A×X -> K) < 1384594318 716396 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i had a dream that i tried to put my pants on and it was incredibly hard < 1384594328 715898 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :putting them on i mean < 1384594353 920907 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was just about to step outside my apartment, when i realized i had no clothes on < 1384594392 270439 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :my girlfriend and her sister were inside, and i was embarrassed that they'd know i almost went outside without any clothes on so i started putting them on at the door, while afraid that someone would see me < 1384594395 356269 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it took forever < 1384594420 933220 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :...but yeah do continue < 1384594439 717547 :asie!~textual@178235038113.elblag.vectranet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1384594447 270510 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :And a homomorphism : (A,X,p) -> (B,Y,q) is (f : B -> A, g : X -> Y) s.t. for any b : B, x : X, p(f(b), x) = q(b, g(x)) < 1384594450 946998 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does that sound right? < 1384594467 845165 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :so what are A, X, p and K here < 1384594479 276994 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :sets, categories or nostrils? < 1384594486 50208 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :In a Chu space? I think they're just sets and functions. < 1384594497 694666 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh i thought you were already generalizing there. < 1384594515 608619 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, this is still the old Chu space thing. < 1384594527 135723 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just rephrased a bit. < 1384594532 919212 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the latter guy in the tuple is the points < 1384594536 854635 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the first is the frame < 1384594541 85725 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :"frame" < 1384594543 345930 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. < 1384594559 192177 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :So one issue here in the definition of Chu space is that f is just a regular function, not a homomorphism. < 1384594575 382407 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds right yes < 1384594608 201044 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I guess you should say that A/B are objects in one category and X/Y are objects in another category. < 1384594617 909817 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :And f/g are morphisms. < 1384594625 630026 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure < 1384594655 174955 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Running out of letters. :-( < 1384594664 288077 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ö, ä, å < 1384594686 433622 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, using categories instead of functions makes it clearer, actually. < 1384594719 689717 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :So we have (A : C, X : D, p : A^op × X -> K) < 1384594722 943407 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where p is a functor. < 1384594724 826700 :prooftechnique!~Also@c-24-147-92-50.hsd1.vt.comcast.net QUIT : < 1384594725 610504 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right? < 1384594762 875817 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are probably properties that we want p to satisfy to make it "Hom-like". < 1384594782 808436 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Isn't there a thing for functors that are like Hom? < 1384594808 441505 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Related to presheaves or something, maybe? < 1384594808 954297 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :when you say p is a functor < 1384594822 435536 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you mean p is a functor from C^op \times D to K < 1384594831 98491 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :or what's a functor from an object < 1384594835 865950 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :to a category < 1384594843 43533 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Er, you're right, that made no sense. < 1384594873 632056 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, so that doesn't work. < 1384594881 560572 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What does A×X even mean when A and X are objects? < 1384594900 225695 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :(In different categories.) < 1384594905 785970 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :it means the tuple (A, X)? < 1384594911 899045 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1384594933 748432 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm mixing up levels here. < 1384594956 269583 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yeah it seems you are trying to work with morphisms between objects that come from different categories < 1384594978 900884 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is beyondly stuff. < 1384595020 108547 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, right. That's one of the ways in which these Chu space things are weirder than regular adjunctions. < 1384595056 528803 :asie!~textual@178235038113.elblag.vectranet.pl PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is the most interesting channel i keep not looking at because i don't understand a word < 1384595067 676114 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, so the old definition: A space is (A : Set, X : Set, p : A×X -> K) < 1384595090 766138 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where K is some global fixed thing. < 1384595144 603985 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :A homomorphism : (A,X,p) -> (B,Y,q) is (f : B -> A, g : X -> Y) s.t. forall b∈B, x∈X, p(f(b), x) = q(b, g(x)) < 1384595232 88407 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. < 1384595242 348783 :nooodl!~nooodl@d54C668E4.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1384595322 382870 :asie!~textual@178235038113.elblag.vectranet.pl PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi nooodl! < 1384595326 924658 :nooodl!~nooodl@d54C668E4.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1384595415 830122 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: help < 1384595422 355975 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1384595464 949380 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have no idea how that should be generalized < 1384595479 871369 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :As it is it doesn't even cover our old notion of topological systems. < 1384595488 802478 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since we can't get frame homomorphisms. < 1384595541 288319 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe we can relax the "K-valued relation" thing for a bit and bring back the iffs. < 1384595549 89310 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does that even help? < 1384595561 131009 :carado!~user4539@2a01:e35:8b61:e430:6ef0:49ff:fe73:1fd0 JOIN :#esoteric < 1384595578 908836 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :iffs sound uncategorical < 1384595584 588150 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yep. < 1384595605 204938 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just want something that lets you express the topological system thing in a reasonable way. < 1384595626 147231 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I'm pretty sure p ought to be something more than a function somehow. < 1384595626 726164 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :well umm < 1384595647 166657 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's so much like Hom. < 1384595705 89654 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have two categories, the one of points (Set) and the one for frames (Lattice?). a topological system is, first of all, a tuple (X, A) where X is from the point category and A is from the frame category but how do you say which points are in which opens? < 1384595732 208268 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Frames aren't just lattices, they're a bit more. < 1384595752 322823 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :you mean because they have infinite joins or what < 1384595760 236568 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :And meets distribute over joins. < 1384595771 444166 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, a system is (X, A, |=), I guess. < 1384595785 23539 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :let's say that's what Lattice is the category of. < 1384595791 295778 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :but okay let's call if Frame < 1384595805 232076 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complete_heyting_algebra calls it Frm < 1384595816 686515 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :still how do you connect two objects from different categories < 1384595829 293685 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, "satisfies" is a relation, |= ⊆ X×A < 1384595830 671879 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess you could have a fixed functor from Frm to Set < 1384595833 79403 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :or something < 1384595841 285038 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :In the book's definition. < 1384595843 356714 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is a pretty unsatisfying way of doing it. < 1384595844 216171 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe that's a bad idea < 1384595991 800787 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I should read http://boole.stanford.edu/pub/coimbra.pdf < 1384596013 297637 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ugh, it calls the points A and the "states" X. < 1384596020 663975 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's too confusing for me. < 1384596087 168518 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :proves that functions between Chu < 1384596087 355858 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :spaces are continuous if and only if they are homomorphisms. < 1384596112 339529 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds about right? < 1384596122 755662 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :whatever that means < 1384596173 301635 :impomatic!~digital_w@87.113.178.250 QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1384596200 483550 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, given the definition of continuous that they have in that PDF, sure. < 1384596242 428202 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, I should have read all of the Wikipedia article, too. < 1384596300 353006 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :So if you put everything in some monoidal category you can do all the same things. < 1384596319 539152 :MindlessDrone!~MindlessD@141.70.114.6 JOIN :#esoteric < 1384596355 735157 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I.e. a (C : Cat, K : C)-space is (A : C, X : C, p : A⊗X -> K) < 1384596410 214935 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :And a morphism : (A,X,p) -> (B,Y,q) is (f : B -> A, g : X -> Y) s.t. forall b:B, x:X. p(f(b), x) = q(b, g(x)) < 1384596420 785177 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where maybe = means isomorphic? < 1384596488 790999 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe we can recover the usual notion of adjunction from that. < 1384596555 615660 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Chu(Cat, Set), where every p is p(-,-) = Hom(-^op,-) < 1384596582 164468 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Having to insert that ^op is really ugly, surely there's a nicer way to express all this? < 1384596687 132741 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :" Where maybe = means isomorphic?" i would default to "equal" < 1384596732 779278 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :"isomorphic" gives us the wrong thing in the Set case. < 1384596748 803275 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it gives us the right thing in the category case. :-) I don't know. < 1384596838 78213 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But neither of them lets us do the thing where we have two different categories. < 1384596878 81937 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does p(f(b), x) = q(b, g(x)) doesn't even mean? is C a concrete category < 1384596898 81183 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :*-doesn't < 1384596939 227826 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it means that I'm saying complete nonsense again. Sigh. < 1384596965 191923 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :So what am I trying to say here? < 1384597014 124132 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The original Chu construction as described in Po-Hsiang (Peter) Chu’s master’s < 1384597017 131617 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :thesis took a symmetric monoidal closed category V with pullbacks and an < 1384597019 631992 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :object k of V and “completed” V to a self-dual category Chu(V, k). < 1384597057 709371 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :"forall b:B, x:X. p(f(b), x) = q(b, g(x))" could be changed into "p \circ (f \times id_X) and q \circ (\id_B, g) are isomorphic morphisms in some category (the arrow category?)" maybe, assuming the category has products in a nice sense. < 1384597070 281373 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe that means nothing either < 1384597094 570088 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's closed category, does that mean cartesian closed i wonder < 1384597121 49593 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1384597122 252422 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :"monoidal closed" is like "cartesian closed" but with some monoidal category, not necessarily categorical product. < 1384597123 731647 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :not at all i guess. < 1384597187 729936 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric : analogy with categories enriched in V [Kel82] one might refer to the < 1384597187 925448 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :objects of the general Chu construction Chu(V, k) as V -enriched Chu spaces, < 1384597188 76459 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :and indeed Chu(V, k) can be formulated as a V -category, one whose hom-objects < 1384597189 916592 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :are objects of V . < 1384597193 718947 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. < 1384597341 844225 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, hmm, apparently Chu spaces were introduced in the context of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/*-autonomous_category < 1384597400 926855 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe that can be a place for the ^op to come from? < 1384597412 150335 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe, maybe. < 1384597413 868363 :asie!~textual@178235038113.elblag.vectranet.pl QUIT :Quit: I'll probably come back in either 20 minutes or 8 hours. < 1384597425 584338 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :why is category theory so harrrrd < 1384597427 297750 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, probably not. < 1384597431 878485 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :sooooooooo harrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrd < 1384597437 5732 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :⊥ is an actual object here. < 1384597542 836366 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm too tired now to think about any of this. < 1384597548 238271 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: Thanks for your help! < 1384597577 546075 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was helpful?? i thought you were teaching me. < 1384597596 385263 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you're welcome i guess :P < 1384597647 665677 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It looks like de Paiva's thesis was about something related to all this. < 1384597662 531269 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are basically no courses that talk about category theory at our university < 1384597665 426146 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's crazy < 1384597677 465677 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hear she sometimes comes to bacat. Maybe we can get her to talk about it. < 1384597677 762162 :mig22!~mig@bb121-7-146-76.singnet.com.sg JOIN :#esoteric < 1384597714 745244 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, the thing I was "really" trying to understand was the whole topological systems/Chu spaces bit. But it seems so categorical. < 1384597803 422955 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1384597827 493180 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet JOIN :#esoteric < 1384598180 414567 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :When I was asking whether you could express the space/system/whatever as some sort of C×D^op, I was focusing too much on (A,X) and not enough on p. < 1384598228 821751 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But p is the important thing here anyway. < 1384598261 71577 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :So that's why I wanted to say something like p : A^op×X -> K < 1384598317 115198 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But that doesn't make sense as-is and I don't know what sort of thing p would be or what sort of thing ^op would be such that it causes the arrows to be reversed. < 1384598339 50452 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, I'm going to sleep. < 1384598974 516630 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :night! < 1384599008 53577 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn60-339.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yeah i too have no idea what anything should be, is, will be, or squirrels about. < 1384599965 897585 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :What sort of games could be made out of category theory? < 1384600198 539037 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or other various mathematical systems? < 1384600237 367040 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have managed to make some out of sequent calculus. < 1384600650 549405 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca QUIT :Quit: zzo38 < 1384601742 718470 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1384602076 859349 :yorick!~yorick@oftn/member/yorick JOIN :#esoteric < 1384602303 796760 :Taneb!~Taneb@5.151.64.255 JOIN :#esoteric < 1384602963 552231 :Taneb!~Taneb@5.151.64.255 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1384603054 334601 :asie!~textual@178235038113.elblag.vectranet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1384603059 156284 :Taneb!~Taneb@5.151.64.255 JOIN :#esoteric < 1384603474 876756 :mig22!~mig@bb121-7-146-76.singnet.com.sg QUIT :Quit: mig22 < 1384603475 390031 :auzboz!7b337982@gateway/web/freenode/ip.123.51.121.130 JOIN :#esoteric < 1384603739 249238 :auzboz!7b337982@gateway/web/freenode/ip.123.51.121.130 QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1384605866 976237 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wow, someone created a substitute-all-the-symbols language that /isn't/ based on brainfuck? < 1384605876 754247 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that doesn't make it any better as a language, but at least it's more original than usual :) < 1384605889 875875 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders what the Phantom Hoover verdict on that sort of language is
< 1384605920 608812 :asie!~textual@178235038113.elblag.vectranet.pl PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm learning Io < 1384606571 911943 :impomatic!~digital_w@87.115.219.253 JOIN :#esoteric < 1384606755 700343 :KingOfKarlsruhe!~chatzilla@unaffiliated/kingofkarlsruhe JOIN :#esoteric < 1384607123 88593 :asie!~textual@178235038113.elblag.vectranet.pl QUIT :Quit: I'll probably come back in either 20 minutes or 8 hours. < 1384609038 308801 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1384609121 300234 :asie!~textual@178235038113.elblag.vectranet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1384609940 849264 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: it's not the first time. RAGE!!! is a syntax replacement for python < 1384609966 959163 :MindlessDrone!~MindlessD@141.70.114.6 QUIT :Quit: MindlessDrone < 1384609981 248022 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: right < 1384609996 967566 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it currently seems to be BF-or-(non-eso)-language, right? < 1384610020 8336 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :i can't think of one that doesn't fit one of those two, no < 1384610210 695651 :mig22!~mig@bb121-7-146-76.singnet.com.sg JOIN :#esoteric < 1384610360 291371 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: i have a challenge for you. come up with an algorithm that clears cells from an infinite BF tape based on a (cautious not-likely-to-make-type1-errors) analysis of the portion of the program that has left to be run < 1384610368 708931 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celestial_Eye < 1384610374 179597 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :jesus < 1384610387 858535 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: I'm not 100% sure what you mean by that < 1384610390 461316 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically "it looks like this cell will never be read or written again, so delete it" < 1384610394 362695 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is this about BF Joust or regular BF? < 1384610405 735932 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's really about SELECT. < 1384610412 728778 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1384610414 496712 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :but say BF < 1384610416 642330 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bubble_Eye < 1384610419 794946 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK this is just silly < 1384610428 418832 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's an attempt to throw away memory that will never be touched again? < 1384610439 274342 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just added a command for that in Shove < 1384610447 522861 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is a bit of a cop-out < 1384610455 132843 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1384610851 963473 :S1!~S1_chatzi@p4FF92774.dip0.t-ipconnect.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1384611070 598357 :mig22!~mig@bb121-7-146-76.singnet.com.sg QUIT :Quit: mig22 < 1384611588 679487 :S1!~S1_chatzi@p4FF92774.dip0.t-ipconnect.de PART :#esoteric < 1384611904 825859 :impomatic!~digital_w@87.115.219.253 QUIT :Quit: impomatic < 1384612438 236779 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@tell fiora is that possible without arbitrarily small distances between objects? <-- i am assuming no, since that's the only way i can see you getting infinite kinetic energy from potential... < 1384614717 912105 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :A black hole should be able to give you infinite kinetic energy, right? < 1384614822 563601 :MindlessDrone!~MindlessD@141.70.114.6 JOIN :#esoteric < 1384614869 997310 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-203-32.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :FreeFull: by accelerating you to infinite velocities? < 1384614895 714360 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. There might be problems with regards to time though < 1384614935 466602 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :With regards of an external observer, you never even cross the event horizon < 1384615071 78431 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :FreeFull: this was about newtonian mechanics, which doesn't have black holes. < 1384615129 506177 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :Newtonian mechanics has an infinite speed of light, right? < 1384615169 549556 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :it might, in any case other objects don't have a speed limit. < 1384615252 828846 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :In Newtonian mechanics, you need either infinite velocity or mass < 1384615287 727290 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which probably does mean accelerating towards a singularity < 1384615328 206851 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :the previous discussion was about how you _can_ get infinite speed in newtonian mechanics, even without starting with it. < 1384615338 948429 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :for point masses, anyway. < 1384615631 647964 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that through abuse of the rocket equation or sth < 1384615746 769561 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: just plain gravitation, no other forces. < 1384615825 325337 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :as i was implying to Fiora, it's probably borrowing potential energy from two of the masses getting infinitely close/colliding. < 1384615983 576431 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1384615998 779477 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, two point masses falling towards each other will go infinitely fast won't they < 1384616050 58981 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :think so. although the actual example has a point mass going infinitely fast towards infinity. < 1384616739 570551 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Later < 1384618049 788801 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: golddfish breeding is kind of messed up sometimes. < 1384618099 434215 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems to consist mostly of "how much can we fuck up a goldfish and still be able to breed it" < 1384618157 270159 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah. :( < 1384618496 420225 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1384618692 799068 :Taneb!~Taneb@5.151.64.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, that was odd < 1384618704 573713 :Taneb!~Taneb@5.151.64.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Someone hid the carpet from my flat's hallway < 1384618760 270468 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :dastardly < 1384618933 92722 :Taneb!~Taneb@5.151.64.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then, when everyone was standing around the bare underlay, he said "We need to cover it up. Maybe we can cover it up with this?", holding the carpet < 1384619185 876784 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :this sounds way more fun than my halls < 1384620833 331757 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1384621069 133028 :conehead!~conehead@unaffiliated/conehead JOIN :#esoteric < 1384621767 876023 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1384622745 327707 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1384623410 719049 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1384623993 124665 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu JOIN :#esoteric < 1384624144 529671 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Today's innovation: In many (Windows) games, I can keep an SSH client open on a second monitor, while the game itself is fullscreen on the first -- but typically there's no way of interacting with the SSH client without alt-tabbing out of the game. However! I can "screen -x" the same screen window that's visible in the SSH client from a mobile device, and then connect a small Bluetooth ... < 1384624150 538262 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :... keyboard to that mobile device. And now I have a separate keyboard for blathering in IRC or whatever. So fancy. < 1384624277 392604 :Taneb!~Taneb@5.151.64.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there a way to have two different keyboards on the same device interacting with different windows < 1384624296 565359 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1384624307 527332 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could certainly hack something up for that. < 1384624330 878365 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Write something that listens for /dev/input/eventX of the other keyboard, convince X not to listen to it, and have that program synthesize key events. < 1384624331 35089 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1384624342 157826 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know of any out-of-the-box solutions, though. < 1384624358 325347 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's MPX if you want different mice to have their own independent pointers. < 1384624407 485710 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1384624419 166600 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(At least I think it was called MPX.) < 1384624465 504186 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1384624542 452002 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1384624704 755218 :Gregor!dlopen@libdl.so PRIVMSG #esoteric :pavucontrol (pulse audio volume control) turns volumes UP when you scroll-wheel DOWN and DOWN when you scroll-wheel UP. < 1384624715 182926 :Gregor!dlopen@libdl.so PRIVMSG #esoteric :Software written by people who have never used software is the best kind of software. < 1384624732 234713 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: the reason i want that problem solved is because SELECT. has no way of returning sufficiently modified cells to their original state without clobbering another cell, which means SELECT. programs are memory hogs by necessity (you have to use a new cell for every new number you want). so it would be nice if my interpreter could clean up unusable cells automatically < 1384624758 4010 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: yeah, it's clearly an unsolvable problem in general, but it may be solvable in useful special cases < 1384625473 995743 :Taneb!~Taneb@5.151.64.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I HAVE BROKEN MY OATH < 1384625496 863751 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1384625550 551969 :Taneb!~Taneb@5.151.64.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I promised I'd try to drink less caffeinated soft drinks < 1384625551 908976 :prooftechnique!~Also@c-24-147-92-50.hsd1.vt.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1384625557 771730 :Taneb!~Taneb@5.151.64.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :After an incident a couple of weeks ago < 1384625572 51687 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is a CAOS command: < 1384625573 591572 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: I decided to give them up for a bit several years ago < 1384625573 748360 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :pat: butt < 1384625577 691234 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, umm, trying to work it out < 1384625579 207459 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :9 years ago < 1384625582 658938 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and haven't drunk them since < 1384625608 21960 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :giving up vehicles only lasted a month, though, but then that wasn't meant to be permanent < 1384625626 391423 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :still, it's interesting to learn how rarely they're needed < 1384625639 953040 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :atm I only use them if I'm in a hurry or it's raining really badly or I need to go a long distance < 1384625668 851188 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually when I give things up, it's never really meant to be permanent, sometimes it just turns out that way < 1384625670 810024 :Taneb!~Taneb@5.151.64.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right now I actually don't need vehicles, the furthest I need to be is about half an hour's walk from here < 1384625687 220809 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for me, s/half an hour/one hour ten minutes/ < 1384625689 492058 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yeah < 1384625693 739439 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :much the same situation < 1384625715 783940 :Taneb!~Taneb@5.151.64.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But that's only in term time and not-term time. The edges I need to travel, I guess < 1384625752 117573 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I use the bus a lot < 1384625756 935915 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :car quite rarely < 1384625758 207836 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's close to the reason I was travelling, too; I don't need to move house between termtime and holiday, but I'm sometimes needed to help other people travel < 1384625762 510480 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: that used to be the case for me, too < 1384625773 235343 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but my bus pass ran out and I needed exercise and the commute seemed like a good time < 1384625788 78397 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :makes sense < 1384625792 417275 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the nice thing about using walking as exercise is that nothing forces the start point and destination to be the same < 1384625798 136987 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a student bus pass so it costs me nothing < 1384625803 514593 :Taneb!~Taneb@5.151.64.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can you guys give any tips for finding flatmates < 1384625810 91002 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, I used to have a student bus pass, but I'm not eligible for it any more < 1384625817 930383 :Taneb!~Taneb@5.151.64.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm starting to think that I need to start to think about that < 1384625819 642874 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: no, I can't, or at least my advice would probably be really bad < 1384625843 162844 :Taneb!~Taneb@5.151.64.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, how about some cautionary tales? < 1384625850 944471 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nor that < 1384625855 319868 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've never had a flatmate < 1384625857 674363 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :step one, find a mate. step two, find a flat. step three, mate the flat and the mate < 1384625873 398735 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could probably get some cautionary tales from oerjan, though < 1384625873 712160 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd paste a video I took yeserday, but when I made it, I was incompetent with the recording tool I used < 1384625894 19582 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wpufk1bed9M < 1384625899 332823 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: be careful if you room with a good friend; it can deteriorate a friendship quick if you don't get along as roommates < 1384625904 975518 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :based on comments he made in #esoteric, he used to be with some if he disliked < 1384625910 498460 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: that sounds like good advice < 1384625943 237996 :Taneb!~Taneb@5.151.64.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, I think that if that happened I'd blame myself and then be really sad < 1384625974 942334 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you can be choosy, ask about things like sleeping habits < 1384626000 430697 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you're social people, being on the same sleep schedule is good; if you're not, you may prefer being on different ones < 1384626026 253202 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :my sleep schedule is not actually random, but I'm not convinced it compresses well < 1384626061 103491 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :also figure out if you want to share food/dishes < 1384626086 983321 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :some people take the approach that each roommate brings their own and there is no sharing, others handle it communally. if you're doing communal, make sure to sort out payment < 1384626129 732058 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :cleaning is another big source of friction; work out your mutual expectations < 1384626138 965612 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :some people can't stand to live with things not clean, and others can't be bothered to clean < 1384626147 601052 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :unsurprisingly, these two types of people don't go well together < 1384626248 211247 :Taneb!~Taneb@5.151.64.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thanks for the advice, coppro < 1384626257 639893 :Taneb!~Taneb@5.151.64.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the caffeine and sugar are going to my head and I feel woozy < 1384626331 355398 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(depending on the layout and personal preferences, significant others may also be an issue) < 1384626529 802252 :asie!~textual@178235038113.elblag.vectranet.pl QUIT :Quit: I'll probably come back in either 20 minutes or 8 hours. < 1384626590 978659 :Lymia!~moe@inportb/loli/cirno-chan QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1384626959 689101 :asie!~textual@178235038113.elblag.vectranet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1384628153 925346 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 NICK :ais523\unfoog < 1384628436 253271 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1384628479 131284 :S1!~S1_chatzi@p4FF92C8A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1384628485 944917 :S1!~S1_chatzi@p4FF92C8A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de PART :#esoteric < 1384628500 85168 :S1!~S1_chatzi@p4FF92C8A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1384629068 738104 :S1!~S1_chatzi@p4FF92C8A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de PART :#esoteric < 1384629348 829944 :doesthiswork!~Adium@98.145.118.186 JOIN :#esoteric < 1384630247 190822 :asie!~textual@178235038113.elblag.vectranet.pl QUIT :Quit: I'll probably come back in either 20 minutes or 8 hours. < 1384630264 325687 :asie!~textual@178235038113.elblag.vectranet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1384631312 570884 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ski: did you see the longversation about chu spaces in here yesterday < 1384631507 901799 :Guest72395!~Sprocklem@S010674440130be65.cg.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1384631593 379052 :conehead!~conehead@unaffiliated/conehead QUIT :Quit: Computer has gone to sleep. < 1384631643 679144 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :How's everyone's hardware programming language going? < 1384631659 625846 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :What hardware programming language? < 1384631818 681432 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :I assumed everybode was working on one . < 1384631828 307170 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :but really I just forgot how it was how was doing that < 1384631869 576387 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :and by how i mean who < 1384631879 631375 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm apparentely a little bit legasthenic < 1384631881 803788 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I am one of the people who was designing a hardware programming language, and wanted some comments about it < 1384632005 877390 :conehead!~conehead@unaffiliated/conehead JOIN :#esoteric < 1384632178 554664 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't add a lot recently since I didn't know what else needs to be change; one thing would be analog stuff, CMOS stuff, and various other things. < 1384632363 662429 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the macros are OK now though; do you think of anything missing or redundant or something with the macro system I have defined for this purpose? < 1384633210 666440 :Frooxius!~Frooxius@cust-101.ktknet.cz QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1384633372 543024 :conehead!~conehead@unaffiliated/conehead QUIT :Quit: Computer has gone to sleep. < 1384633478 949339 :Guest72395!~Sprocklem@S010674440130be65.cg.shawcable.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1384633590 964856 :Frooxius!~Frooxius@cust-101.ktknet.cz JOIN :#esoteric < 1384633847 125697 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know i'm still waiting for jsvine to write that article < 1384633887 323333 :Taneb!~Taneb@5.151.64.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, yeah < 1384634058 44246 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I didn't know they haven't done so yet? < 1384634103 331212 :Sprocklem!~Sprocklem@S010674440130be65.cg.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1384634615 143240 :nisstyre!~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre JOIN :#esoteric < 1384634713 23835 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1384634733 756951 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has come to the point where I'm seriously designing esoteric processing units < 1384635006 547172 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman_: Can you describe it please? < 1384635177 334504 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1384635345 480904 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote scipi < 1384635350 865554 :HackEgo!dlopen@libdl.so PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1384635353 505985 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote scipy < 1384635355 416001 :HackEgo!dlopen@libdl.so PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1384635478 452076 :MindlessDrone!~MindlessD@141.70.114.6 QUIT :Quit: MindlessDrone < 1384635516 961231 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I'm designig weird cpus :) < 1384635523 908165 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :*designing < 1384635547 255427 :Sprocklem!~Sprocklem@S010674440130be65.cg.shawcable.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1384635550 592653 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :have you ever designed a blitter < 1384635953 986149 :Sprocklem!~Sprocklem@S010674440130be65.cg.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1384636254 935444 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? < 1384636255 491425 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1384636262 967743 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: http://codepad.org/43llKpDB < 1384636266 459132 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :^- stuff like that < 1384636268 821479 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :aw, but they're cool. < 1384636276 160271 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :screen blitters? < 1384636293 602423 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, yeah. basically a coprocessor that can do memory movs according to a mask. < 1384636329 608166 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :ic < 1384636347 836073 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1384636359 383651 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :that SBA could actually be moved out of the loop to make it run faster < 1384636469 14005 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I'm designing something with integrated Support for graphics stuff and stuff < 1384636474 750318 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :then I'll write some crappy game for it < 1384636481 407487 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then I consider the project done :) < 1384636729 131369 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yeah < 1384636739 208689 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :DST and SRC set the destination and source < 1384636743 99555 :Sprocklem!~Sprocklem@S010674440130be65.cg.shawcable.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1384636747 848018 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :because they arent encoded in instructions itself < 1384636760 282373 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :but must ruther be set by instructions < 1384636762 609502 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :*rather < 1384636785 53874 :doesthiswork!~Adium@98.145.118.186 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Programming is a meritocracy because it’s an empirical activity. That’s why we don’t have programming fads or fashions. < 1384636802 531189 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :1/10 not even mad < 1384636867 591464 :doesthiswork!~Adium@98.145.118.186 PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't it the most wonderful quote? < 1384636916 172706 :conehead!~conehead@unaffiliated/conehead JOIN :#esoteric < 1384636956 699324 :Taneb!~Taneb@5.151.64.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesthiswork, by wonderful do you mean humorously completely wrong? < 1384636977 334595 :doesthiswork!~Adium@98.145.118.186 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes! < 1384636990 647665 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not a real opinion. < 1384637091 483600 :doesthiswork!~Adium@98.145.118.186 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the consequence is so hilariously wrong that it disproves the antecedent. < 1384637185 559816 :nooodl!~nooodl@d54C668E4.access.telenet.be QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1384637185 777425 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"It's about time Stephen Wolfram got credit for inventing Lisp." good blog here < 1384637207 420772 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-203-32.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh, he hasn't taken credit for that yet? < 1384637208 745219 :doesthiswork!~Adium@98.145.118.186 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh another good one < 1384637235 121363 :doesthiswork!~Adium@98.145.118.186 PRIVMSG #esoteric :xah lee would like that < 1384637243 239093 :prooftechnique!~Also@c-24-147-92-50.hsd1.vt.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wolfram Language will be the last programming language we ever need™ < 1384637736 768498 :Sprocklem!~Sprocklem@S010674440130be65.cg.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1384638020 551814 :doesthiswork!~Adium@98.145.118.186 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like how need is copywritten < 1384638090 883170 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :holy god is wolfram making a programming language < 1384638091 627676 :doesthiswork!~Adium@98.145.118.186 PRIVMSG #esoteric :like "well typed programs can't go wrong™" < 1384638110 691648 :doesthiswork!~Adium@98.145.118.186 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes he is < 1384638128 251911 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :fucking < 1384638129 794975 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :beautiful < 1384638272 202072 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it called "Wolfram" < 1384638323 394319 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-203-32.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesthiswork: copywritten? :( < 1384638378 971378 :doesthiswork!~Adium@98.145.118.186 PRIVMSG #esoteric :woops "trademarked" < 1384638385 882095 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-203-32.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :or did you mean that the copy writer added the trademark sign < 1384638399 194330 :doesthiswork!~Adium@98.145.118.186 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bike: wolfram beta < 1384638405 442899 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yesssss. < 1384638425 906487 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman_: OK, that is you have some idea < 1384638452 58611 :ais523\unfoog!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bike: it actually is called Wolfram, I think < 1384638481 58442 :doesthiswork!~Adium@98.145.118.186 PRIVMSG #esoteric :how are we supposed to make jokes if real life beats us to them < 1384638575 798370 :Sprocklem!~Sprocklem@S010674440130be65.cg.shawcable.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1384638626 571743 :impomatic!~digital_w@87.115.219.253 JOIN :#esoteric < 1384638849 302231 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Hm? < 1384638894 113324 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :One always needs an idea before doing anything. < 1384638907 485846 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman_: What game did you intend to write? < 1384638912 457794 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I'm also designing a CPU for my university ;) < 1384638930 264433 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :What CPU do you design for your university? < 1384638938 483450 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I was thinking of Pong. < 1384638965 51295 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: It's actually a whole "computer system" < 1384638983 264986 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's supposed to be a simplified "real computer" < 1384638996 177685 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :for demonstration purposes. < 1384639015 667294 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :It has a full cache and MMU emulation < 1384639045 306775 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :What I wanted is a CPU with explicit caching/pipelining rather than being implicit. < 1384639059 238281 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :How so? < 1384639067 451475 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am not sure exactly how, but I think it would be a good idea. < 1384639071 639729 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :and why "wanted"? < 1384639076 342545 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :And how would that work? < 1384639081 898931 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :If have to explictly cache data? < 1384639085 109698 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. through uhm. < 1384639099 812343 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :cache load instructions? < 1384639119 702495 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that would be one thing, I suppose. < 1384639134 546470 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or due you just treat the cache as memory < 1384639146 987828 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you have instructions to write from the cache to memory? < 1384639169 799826 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :which would be roughly the same as having an internal RAM and external RAM < 1384639180 506805 :prooftechnique!~Also@c-24-147-92-50.hsd1.vt.comcast.net QUIT : < 1384639180 663121 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :like some microcontrollers have < 1384639190 807253 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose you would have instructions to transfer between the cache and the external memory, and to transfer between the cache and registers. < 1384639198 54774 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :like the 8051 < 1384639202 317226 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :MOVX and MOV :) < 1384639223 811316 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Another idea I had is some instruction to swap between cache and microcode RAM. < 1384639225 775125 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :(MOVX = external Data) < 1384639243 779026 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :it actually also has MOVC < 1384639255 106538 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :as it is harvard architecture < 1384639295 584311 :asie!~textual@178235038113.elblag.vectranet.pl QUIT :Quit: I'll probably come back in either 20 minutes or 8 hours. < 1384639335 934045 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't really see why you'd want explicit caching < 1384639369 565242 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course, for some microcontrollers it makes sense to keep often accessed data in the internal ram and not the external ram < 1384639371 723844 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would want explicit caching and pipelining so that it can all be software-controlled with predictable instruction timings, as well as user-defined microcodes. < 1384639406 383396 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :which means you explicitly programm "caching" < 1384639418 394378 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: So < 1384639423 27790 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hard-Realtime Constraints? < 1384639432 540660 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman_: Yes. < 1384639448 254668 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see. < 1384639459 859363 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :That I accept as an argument :) < 1384639482 118163 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not well informed about real-time CPUs < 1384639498 496616 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :if there are any specifically designed for that < 1384639514 957935 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could argue that old CPUs with predictable cycles per instructions are more or less real-time-safe < 1384639516 579696 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :It may also simplify the implementation of the CPU somewhat, depending on how it is done, and allows software to figure out the best way to cache data for the application rather than the hardware to guess. < 1384639532 770092 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman_: Yes, it is one of the things I prefer about the older CPU designs. < 1384639540 707871 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e old x86 processor < 1384639557 349046 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you have the assembler code you can make worst case timing analysis on the assembler code < 1384639567 398586 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :it get's a little bit trickier with interrupt latency < 1384639571 483472 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's doable < 1384639574 284101 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :And make it slow on purpose too if you want to. < 1384640571 101668 :carado!~user4539@2a01:e35:8b61:e430:6ef0:49ff:fe73:1fd0 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1384640955 593845 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Quit: requested < 1384641099 146368 :yiyus!1242712427@je.je.je QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1384641191 694176 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1384641534 755797 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops. poor thing < 1384641536 631102 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :@botsnack < 1384641536 856429 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1384641945 112583 :Sprocklem!~Sprocklem@S010674440130be65.cg.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1384642200 204376 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-28-21.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1384642225 687533 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :It lives! < 1384642239 248916 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-28-21.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Changing host < 1384642239 406041 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu JOIN :#esoteric < 1384642632 560845 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Quit: requested < 1384642656 127 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :gah, tab completion is evil. I should stop using it. < 1384642673 454301 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: Is it? Not if you are careful? < 1384642697 661889 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, lamb completed to lambdabot rather than the intended lambdacat ... < 1384642716 366859 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you have a file named lambdacat in your computer? < 1384642719 487824 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe I should pick a different name for my test bot :) < 1384642784 352414 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott used to use mubot < 1384642785 927735 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :v. creative < 1384642836 737720 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :What program are you using with tab-completion anyways? Different programs sometimes implement it a bit differently, such as Windows difference from Linux tab completion. < 1384642874 12749 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1384642888 789019 :Taneb!~Taneb@5.151.64.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bike, clearly the next one is nubot < 1384642952 107248 :ais523\unfoog!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT : < 1384643294 629695 :JesseH!~JesseH@unaffiliated/jesseh JOIN :#esoteric < 1384643516 388466 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have made up the program which will provide two low-pass filters and one signal selects any fraction in between the two filters; one filter stops while the other one is running, or the effect of the audio on the filter and vice-versa is only partial and the other filter is the other part of the fraction. A triangle wave then is used to control this fraction, and the signal filtered with a fixed fraction is subtracted from it, to make the output. < 1384643525 394897 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is this a known thing too? < 1384643575 744667 :^v!~NotPing@2601:4:4500:887:707b:81f0:dc04:dc8 JOIN :#esoteric < 1384643601 32307 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :Could you provide a sound file? < 1384643612 2175 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I could do so < 1384643731 880221 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :Will you? < 1384643742 500980 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, just wait a minute < 1384643759 668105 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: kattacat < 1384644257 103776 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :FreeFull: http://zzo38computer.org/csound/music/example1.wav (see example1.csd for the parameters) < 1384644470 379649 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: h8r < 1384644488 211675 :Taneb!~Taneb@5.151.64.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :What am I a hater of this time? < 1384644502 480381 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Do the filters alternate very quickly? < 1384644503 347767 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Trains? < 1384644512 790588 :Taneb!~Taneb@5.151.64.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. Merely a disbeliever < 1384644526 291336 :Taneb!~Taneb@5.151.64.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm a traintheist < 1384644554 605760 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :FreeFull: They alternate at the frequency of the triangle wave (the p4, p5, and p6 correspond to the fourth, fifth, and sixth parameters on each line of the block in the input file) < 1384644571 230110 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :See ../csoundextraopcodes.c to see what "mixlpf" does. < 1384645923 145649 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1384646009 826394 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :`addquote Phantom_Hoover: golddfish breeding is kind of messed up sometimes. it seems to consist mostly of "how much can we fuck up a goldfish and still be able to breed it" < 1384646014 251186 :HackEgo!dlopen@libdl.so PRIVMSG #esoteric :1133) Phantom_Hoover: golddfish breeding is kind of messed up sometimes. it seems to consist mostly of "how much can we fuck up a goldfish and still be able to breed it"