00:03:54 copumpkin: hmm, didn't you categories package define a category of adjunctions 00:03:57 How possible is a language like Haskell but with support for object-oriented programming 00:04:19 Taneb: People have tried various things. 00:04:46 That says it all 00:05:02 @google object-oriented haskell 00:05:03 http://stackoverflow.com/questions/5414323/does-haskell-support-object-oriented-programming 00:05:03 Title: Does Haskell support object oriented programming - Stack Overflow 00:05:21 (for some bizarre reason I have to write blog posts about computer science for my uni course) 00:05:32 (and also comment on other people's blog) 00:05:36 -!- Sprocklem has joined. 00:05:47 Taneb: why don't you figure out chu spaces for me instead 00:05:54 (me and some friends are writing controversial posts because they are easy to comment on) 00:05:55 (checkmate) 00:06:04 ion: Wow, no break-in period! 00:06:10 (I'm writing one about why Haskell's a great language, and one of my friends is writing a similar post about C++) 00:06:26 *cough* C++? 00:06:49 ion, he has similar opinions of Haskell as I do of C++ 00:07:23 Also, as long as we can provide citations, easy-to-disagree-with is good 00:10:28 "When you place your order, you can select our cable break-in service, selectable through a drop down box in the shopping cart for that cable product. Prices vary with the cable model and level of break-in desired." 00:10:46 "Our cables require a total of 400 to 500 hours to completely break in. If you ordered our 2 day cable break-in service, your cables will arrive with the equivalent of 96 hours on them. If you ordered the extended 5 day breakin, the equivalent of 240 hours will be on them." 00:11:26 Now that’s customer service. 00:12:14 Comments: Personally i think this cable is so fast it has changed the phase relationship (or corrected it) by 180 degrees above 60hz, the bass is so tight it sounds like the bass is coming from my speakers. 00:12:55 -!- muskrat has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:13:00 ion: And it only costs $25 bucks for the 5-day extended breakin! (Two days is free!) 00:13:11 Whoa! What a bargain! 00:13:33 -!- muskrat has joined. 00:15:18 -!- Bike has joined. 00:16:05 http://news.cnet.com/8301-13645_3-20009082-47.html CNET teaches you the difference between analog and digital: digital is dotted. 00:16:20 Choice quote: "Every sound you hear in real life that doesn't come out of a speaker is analog." 00:16:45 "Theoretically have an infinite resolution", nice 00:17:39 great 00:18:23 Analog is always "on," digital is either on or off. 00:18:46 lol this is great 00:18:59 go over the advantages of digital and then be like "but anyway analog sounds better" 00:19:04 "analog", "infinite resolution" what? 00:19:09 It's Like, Cold And Impersonal, Man 00:19:26 Every time I end up on an audiophile web-crawl I get this feeling maybe we should just get rid of ears in general. 00:19:32 pikhq: "CDs have a 16-bit resolution and DVD-Audio discs can be encoded with a maximum of 24-bit resolution" 00:19:45 Even ignoring the band-limitedness of human senses, reality is quantised. 00:20:12 Bike: Sigh. 00:20:21 pikhq: "Analog recording's theoretically infinite resolution refers to its continuity, compared with digital's on/off sampled nature." See, it's that simple. 00:20:34 It's a shame elementary signal processing is relatively obscure. 00:20:47 shannon is my god, man 00:21:16 I wasn't accusing anyone *here* of being this ignorant. Just CNET. :) 00:21:29 though i know less signal processing than i'd like :( 00:21:41 Bike: Anyway they both "still fall short in creating truly life-like sound", so you can use either. 00:22:08 thank goodness 00:22:37 Bike: Yeah, but you at least know Shannon. 00:23:02 neuronal coding is kind of awesomely all over the place btw, sometimes it reasonably makes sense as frequency coding and sometimes a transient stimulus of one photon causes a response 00:23:35 hello 00:23:39 helmc 00:23:48 kello? 00:23:52 And presumably also know about quantization noise. 00:23:54 must be what's after jello 00:24:26 pikhq: not by that name, at least :/ 00:24:40 kmc: g'daymc 00:24:57 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Quantization_error.png oh, yeah, that's simple enough 00:25:03 -!- Darklust has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:25:13 clearly another data point (!) saying analog is superior. 00:25:20 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving). 00:25:44 -!- Darklust has joined. 00:28:54 'Cept that quantization noise, for 16-bit audio, is like -90 dB. 00:29:28 i think that might be the lowest dB measurement i've ever heard of 00:30:27 Note that here the maximum volume is 0 dB. 00:31:02 The 24-bit noise floor is, uh, -145 dB. 00:31:14 http://www.rane.com/pi14.html heh :) 00:31:22 (Look at that list of features.) 00:31:23 24-bit isn't (16-bit) * 1.5? 00:31:47 Fiora: No, each extra bit doubles the precision of the samples. 00:32:03 > 90 ** 1.5 00:32:04 853.8149682454624 00:32:05 I meant, in db 00:32:13 ...what? 00:32:22 :t (**) 00:32:23 Floating a => a -> a -> a 00:32:28 if 8-bit is 45db and 16-bit is 90db would 24-bit be 135...? 00:32:32 i may have underestimated **1.5. 00:32:55 Fiora: It'd be, like, log_10(2^8)? 00:33:34 fizzie: niiiiice 00:34:08 Oh, except that a change by a factor of 10 is a 10dB change. 00:34:19 So that'd be... 10*log_10(2^8)? 00:35:00 Or... 24 dB? Hum. 00:35:25 20*, I believe. Because of power/magnitude and blahblah. 00:35:33 Ah, yes, 20* 00:35:45 pagnitude 00:35:49 That makes it work. 48dB. 00:36:16 And the actual number for 16 bits is -96 dB, so hey. 00:36:44 And 0.5*96 is 48. :p 00:36:48 Yup! 00:37:33 For comparison, a vuvuzela is 120dB. 00:37:38 good to know dB are just as confusing as the last time i cared about dB 00:38:18 Bike: imo use cents instead? 00:38:36 good mo 00:38:38 1200 cents/octave, it's perfect 00:38:39 cB? 00:38:51 what's the unit where you use e? nats? 00:39:11 So... yeah. 16-bit 44.1 kHz is perfect for those of us who don't care about listening to the grand vuvuzela orchestra at actual volume. 00:39:11 or was nats for information... 00:39:12 why would you use e 00:39:12 What was the power being compared to again when using a dB value as an “absolute” value? 00:39:14 how unnatural 00:39:37 Bike: It's the e-bit, yes. 00:39:37 Bike: have you learned about chu spaces yet 00:39:45 why would i care about chu spaces 00:39:54 because they're great 00:40:26 come on they generalize topological spaces and vector spaces and a zillion things apparently?? 00:41:03 ion: It's very context-dependent. 00:41:14 and, uh, games? 00:41:24 look i don't know that's why you read these papers for me 00:41:26 20 µPa 10e−12 W/m² or 10e−12 W apparently. 00:41:36 why would i want to generalize all those things though 00:41:37 comma after the µPa 00:41:42 That's just the usual for dBA. 00:41:57 (Which is also A-weighted.) 00:42:10 I was asking due to For comparison, a vuvuzela is 120dB. 00:42:17 Ah. 00:42:24 why would you generalize anything 00:42:30 -!- Frooxius has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:42:37 btw a chu space is just a matrix 00:42:42 -!- Frooxius has joined. 00:42:45 ion: Ah. Well, if you set the noise floor of a CD at 0, the loudest sound it can represent is 96dB. 00:42:46 What chu say? 00:43:06 differentiation is just a matrix. 00:43:15 The Matrix is just a matrix. 00:43:17 Btw, is there an algebraic structure that captures the idea of 'complemet'? I've been thinking some about that 00:43:24 solidity is just a matrix 00:43:37 complement* even 00:43:42 The "acoustic decibel" zero is (very) approximately at the threshold of hearing. 00:43:53 that must be very approximate indeed 00:45:39 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 00:46:16 The figures get better with noise shaping. (you can make the quantization noise lie in bands humans don't hear so well, making the *effective* noise floor in the bands we care about lower; about -120dB) 00:46:17 Very. But it's at least some sort of a justification for the level. 00:47:51 Hm, never mind my earlier line.. 00:49:38 Bike: differentiation is just a matrix? 00:50:40 it's only a linear operator 00:51:59 but with an infinite-dimensional vector spaces? 00:52:18 Well yes, f(x+ε)=f(x)+f'(x)ε... 00:52:56 shachaf: yes? 00:53:08 does that even have a basis 00:53:08 imo no 00:53:40 shachaf: I think you could extrapolate the duals to infinite-dimensional vector spaces. 00:54:31 have one delta function for every real (or w/e) 00:55:36 you could also do something easier like just polynomials, if you want, i guess. 01:03:13 -!- Darklust has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 01:05:28 -!- Darklust has joined. 01:08:24 oklopol: Oh, http://ncatlab.org/nlab/show/Chu+construction 01:19:40 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 01:21:10 -!- Sgeo has joined. 01:52:02 -!- yorick has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:59:07 shachaf: I never wrote one, but Saizan or xplat might have 01:59:56 copumpkin: Well, do you know anything good about that category? 02:00:59 hmm, what are objects and morphisms in it? 02:01:12 Objects are categories, morphisms are pairs of adjoint functors. 02:02:25 You can pick which direction it goes -- let's say an adjunction : C ~~> D is a pair (F : D -> C, G : C -> D, F -| G) 02:02:32 So it goes in the direction of the right adjoint. 02:03:45 Since there are no functor to the empty category, I guess there are no adjunctions either to or from it. 02:04:23 Adjunctions to/from a singleton category correspond to terminal/initial objects in the other category. 02:10:16 But in general adjunctions are weird so I don't know. 02:12:03 Does it have products or something? Certainly it doesn't have an initial/terminal object. 02:28:45 -!- muskrat has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 02:29:28 -!- prooftechnique has quit. 02:32:07 -!- muskrat has joined. 02:33:47 -!- augur has joined. 02:42:28 -!- CADD has joined. 02:43:25 interesting 02:43:40 need to think about it some more 02:45:21 Someone's complaint about Elixir arguably applies to Rust 02:45:30 Perhaps less so, but still applies IMO 02:48:28 They were complaining about rebindable variables. Not about making mutable structures with them (which I had previously strawmanned that sort of complaint as), but about being able to read a code and finding where the variables it mentions are adjusted. 02:49:02 So, it seems to me that Rust owned pointers, even non-mut, could still end up changing between declaration and use, and that that needs to be known. Although getting that wrong is a compile-time error, so it's less bad 02:49:51 -!- madbr has joined. 02:53:49 -!- conehead has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 02:59:49 hm 03:00:27 trying to figure out if there's some set of numbers where evaluating if a number is in that set is turing complete 03:01:27 a recursive set? 03:01:28 (aside from encoding a program in some real language into a number and then the number is in the set if it runs) 03:01:48 I think it would have to be a recursive set yeah 03:02:03 though maybe it's possible to do it with a plain function 03:03:30 or something in the style of the collatz sequence 03:10:41 -!- conehead has joined. 03:11:54 -!- conehead has quit (Max SendQ exceeded). 03:12:58 -!- conehead has joined. 03:17:06 /msg bike can you give me an estimate of when the ai winter began and ended? 03:17:37 i'm no good with dates. 03:18:04 I really should make a bot that takes messages beginning with space 03:18:08 and thanks 03:18:21 wikipedia would probably be better than me. 03:19:37 it says 87 to 93 03:19:58 I guess I have to find more modern paper to read then 03:20:08 paper on what? 03:22:46 in this case knowledge representation, but I'm trying to get familiar with case based reasoning 03:23:30 My god 03:23:41 read the rdf docs or whatever 03:24:39 I'd prefer to avoid learning more than a rough overview knowledge representation 03:25:20 ontology is a word that gives me a slight rash 03:26:39 -!- Bike_ has joined. 03:26:51 doesthiswork: then i recommend "Ramón Llull's Thinking Machine" and "John Wilkins' Analytical Language". 03:26:56 -!- Bike has quit (Disconnected by services). 03:26:59 -!- Bike_ has changed nick to Bike. 03:27:06 THANKS 03:28:12 woops capslock 03:28:35 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:28:43 YOU ARE WELCOME 03:39:31 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gF_qQYrCcns 03:59:43 `wercome hackego 03:59:45 hackego: エソテリックプログラミング言語のディザインとデプロイメントの国際な場所へようこそ!詳しく、ウィキを見て: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page。(他のエソテリック、irc.dal.netの#esotericへ) 04:34:11 that’s waisis 04:35:00 -!- madbr has left. 04:35:27 no, it's Japanese 04:58:15 did you know there is a book series about sexual encounters with dinosaurs 04:59:23 http://www.cracked.com/quick-fixes/10-real-book-covers-from-dinosaur-on-human-sex-novels/ 05:07:49 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 05:12:55 Looks truncated. "irc.dal.netの#esotericへ)" it should be. 05:13:09 And in fact I thought that's what I had typed when I wrote that. 05:13:31 so what's the purpose of `wercome 05:13:42 `WELCOME 05:13:45 WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE DESIGN AND DEPLOYMENT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: . (FOR THE OTHER KIND OF ESOTERICA, TRY #ESOTERIC ON IRC.DAL.NET.) 05:15:06 Hrm, is the "hackego: " text what made it too long? 05:15:07 `wwalcome 05:15:08 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: wwalcome: not found 05:15:10 `wercome 05:15:12 ​エソテリックプログラミング言語のディザインとデプロイメントの国際な場所へようこそ!詳しく、ウィキを見て: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page。(他のエソテリック、irc.dal.netの#esotericへ) 05:15:12 `ls w* 05:15:14 ls: cannot access w*: No such file or directory 05:15:17 So it is. 05:15:18 wha. 05:15:21 `ls /bin/w* 05:15:23 ls: cannot access /bin/w*: No such file or directory 05:15:29 `run ls /bin/w* 05:15:31 ​/bin/which 05:15:42 `run ls w* 05:15:44 As the wisdom directory contains many files named after nicks, listing it in public annoys people. Try https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf instead. 05:16:02 ...yeah certainly wisdom starts with w. 05:16:19 `welkom 05:16:20 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: welkom: not found 05:16:25 `Welkom 05:16:26 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: Welkom: not found 05:16:28 :( 05:16:34 -!- augur has joined. 05:18:46 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:18:54 `? Welkom 05:18:56 Welkom bij het internationaal centrum voor het ontwerpen en implementeren van esoterische programmeertalen! Voor meer informatie, bezoek de wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (Voor de andere soort esoterie is er #esoteric op irc.dal.net.) 05:19:22 -!- augur has joined. 05:21:22 -!- augur_ has joined. 05:23:45 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 05:48:49 -!- asie has joined. 06:06:43 " Btw, is there an algebraic structure that captures the idea of 'complemet'? I've been thinking some about that" boolean algebra maybe? 06:10:50 -!- asie has quit (Quit: I'll probably come back in either 20 minutes or 8 hours.). 06:11:50 (" a recursive set?" being recursive is an _upper_ bound for complexity) 06:12:12 -!- conehead has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 06:18:49 -!- asie has joined. 06:22:38 -!- asie has quit (Client Quit). 06:23:43 -!- Sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 06:28:17 halp pikhq 06:28:24 does * not work in filenames with mv? 06:31:22 -!- tertu has joined. 06:36:13 `run ls -d w* 06:36:15 As the wisdom directory contains many files named after nicks, listing it in public annoys people. Try https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf instead. 06:37:03 `run ls . 06:37:05 bdsmreclist \ bi \ bin \ canary \ cat \ complaints \ :-D \ dog \ etc \ factor \ fb \ fb.c \ file \ head \ hello \ hello.c \ ibin \ index.html \ interps \ lib \ mind \ paste \ pref \ prefs \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf 06:37:44 -!- adu has joined. 06:37:47 hi 06:38:05 `relcome adu 06:38:08 ​adu: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: . (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) 06:39:14 nice 06:39:33 I tried deploying a language once 06:39:43 I didn't get very far 06:40:25 interesting. must have been a very complicated language. 06:40:33 it was a scheme clone 06:40:36 http://andydude.github.io/droscheme/ 06:40:54 (i am deploying right now, and in under a week, i have a working prototype and a boatload of example programs) 06:41:07 sweet 06:41:21 (because the language is danged simple) 06:41:24 I'm more interested in metaprogramming now 06:41:51 what's a complete numerical tower 06:42:02 oklopol: up to complex 06:42:08 oh okay 06:42:11 and strict rationals 06:42:31 some schemes do 1/2 => 0.5, which is not using a rational object 06:42:48 why should there be a difference in a high level language 06:43:05 hmm 06:43:08 unless you imply that precision is lost 06:43:16 in some operations 06:43:24 well, it's not precision that's lost, it's exactness that's lost 06:43:38 i don't know the difference 06:43:41 well 06:43:48 i guess i do but i still don't know what you mean 06:43:49 precision is continuous 06:43:52 exactness is binary 06:44:07 err 06:44:19 although, you could make the argument that exactness is infinite precision 06:44:28 as in, 0.33333... does not equal 1/3 no matter how many 3's you put 06:44:33 yes 06:45:00 but yes, if you say exactness is infinite precision, then precision is also lost 06:46:03 well, droscheme is also an experiment in metaprogramming for me 06:46:07 the compiler is at least 06:46:13 "exactness is binary" do you mean to be exact is to conform to the ieee specification? 06:49:41 nope 06:50:01 ieee specifies operations within a given preciison 06:50:38 i mean if you do (acos -1), then even though -1 is an exact number, the output will be inexact, i.e.: pi 06:51:21 or whatever double-precision object best represents pi 06:51:56 so i made this minigolf "game" some weeks ago, where there are some lines and a ball bounces off of them 06:52:13 after 11 bounces, the number usually has something like 100 digits 06:52:35 i mean the position & direction 06:52:47 the numbers representing those i mean 06:53:00 and i mean the numerator and denominator of those numbers 06:53:25 point is rationals are funnnn 06:53:38 yes 06:54:08 one of things I wanted to try out was the whole "exact real" concept 06:54:25 essentially how Mathematica does things 06:55:07 everything is stored symbolically, then when you ask for 50 decimal places, it calculates everything, then when you ask for 2000 decimal places, it calculates it again from scratch 06:55:16 my hope was to make a puzzle game where you have to solve hole-in-one problems, where some of the levels can be passed only if you solve some big math conjecture 06:56:00 but apparently such systems are not known to be able to simulate turing machines 06:56:18 heh 06:56:20 a closely related model is one where for each wall you have a specific direction in which the ball bounces 06:56:35 that reminds me of an episode of Elementary 06:56:38 (in mine, it's a "physically correct" bounce) 06:56:56 in the closely related model, apparently from 3d on you can simulate arbitrary computation 06:57:13 with rotational momentum and table-top friction? 06:57:28 oklopol: what if some of the walls are interlinked, so that a bounce against one wall removes another wall and causes a third to pop-up. i bet you could do arbitrary circuits that way. 06:57:31 with a reflection over the normal 06:57:34 thus the quotes 06:57:43 oklopol: or portals 06:58:34 quintopia: surely, but that's not as cool as having a turing machine running in the decimal extension of your rationals. 06:58:58 oklopol: maybe it would let you have that too 06:59:31 perhaps 06:59:41 oklopol: hmm, couldn't you simulate fractran by clever wall placement? 07:00:07 well that's pretty much what has been done in 3d for the one with bounces in constant directions 07:00:20 ah 07:00:28 except usually people simulate affine functions 07:00:30 erm 07:00:58 whaddyacallem functions which are affine in some way in some places and affine in another way in other places. 07:01:35 you have a 2d vector of rationals represent the left and right tail of the turing machine 07:01:44 oklopol: i think maybe you could do it in 3D with "physical" bounces 07:01:45 erm 07:01:55 tails of the infinite configuration 07:02:14 perhaps, but do you have a specific idea? 07:02:43 i have an idea for a divisibility test... 07:03:18 draw a quick sketch in your favorite 3d modeling program 07:03:23 :) 07:03:37 i don't 3d modeling. and i don't have a computer cable of it anyway. 07:03:43 cable? 07:03:50 a computer cable of 3d modeling 07:03:53 yes 07:03:54 mm mm mm 07:03:59 that's the most important part 07:05:19 3d modeling doesn't need a fancy computer, realistic rendering does 07:05:40 capable? 07:05:45 yes 07:05:48 yes adu yes 07:05:57 thank you for your kind help with my condition 07:06:20 but yeah there is pretty much no nice and easy way to do 3d modeling afaik (let alone nd) 07:06:20 lol 07:06:39 say compared to opening paint and drawing a 2d image 07:06:43 oklopol: there is one easy way, it's called photogrammetry 07:06:59 okay photogram me something quickly 07:07:10 oklopol: yeah oklopol just build a real one and photogrammeter it into a model! 07:07:27 photogrammetry requires specialized tools that convert static images from multiple angles into a 3D model for you 07:07:52 i don't have any such tools 07:07:58 oklopol: also oklopol i like oklopol saying oklopol your name oklopol too many times oklopol in a sentence oklopol. oklopol! 07:08:15 http://www.microsoft.com/ultracam/en-us/umap20.aspx 07:08:20 look i just made your name banal 07:08:40 http://www.vjn.fi/temporary%20shit/ddd.png 07:08:43 could you explain Clue (oklopol) to me, oklopol? your description on the wiki is nonsense 07:08:44 that was so much faster 07:08:57 tell me when you are done 07:09:25 oklopol: awwww 07:09:49 ;) 07:09:54 oklopol: I can't, I don't have the software 07:10:59 yes, you have to get special software and i bet it takes seconds and seconds to open when you double-click it so you will never bother to use it. 07:11:09 paint on the other hand 07:11:11 oh it's so nice 07:11:16 lol 07:11:29 I prefer Gimp 07:11:44 I can do things in Gimp that will make you weep 07:12:04 things i need to do: paint pixels, paint straight lines 07:12:56 other things of importance: the program takes less than 3 seconds to open 07:13:03 i'm a busy and important guy 07:13:08 and my programs need to respect that 07:13:44 i don't really get gimp, iirc last time i tried it took me a week to find an actual brush 07:14:49 oklopol: yes, i'm pretty sure it's possible in 3D with "physical bounces" if you're allowed infinite walls and infinite cups. i just designed one in my head. it only uses 90 degree bounces. 07:15:18 infinite walls? 07:15:44 cups sound dangerous 07:15:48 well, i left out one part of the design, but yes what i have requires there be an infinite number of walls 07:15:54 does infinite walls mean infinitely many walls? 07:16:06 or why do you need infinite size 07:16:07 cups as in holes as in "hole in one" 07:16:12 oh. 07:16:46 i have a hunch that you are not doing the computation in the presentation of the number, but in the large scale location of the ball 07:16:53 getting the ball in the hole is the halting condition right 07:16:57 yes 07:17:12 can you try to describe what's going on 07:17:13 well of course i am. i can't think in terms of the position numbers 07:17:51 so the position of the ball on the x axis is your number n (in fractran) 07:18:06 just using integer positions you know 07:18:12 alrighty 07:18:39 and it bounces ziggity zag parallel to the y, then z, then y, then z axes 07:19:03 every wall that turns it from y towards z has holes in it every kth integer 07:19:22 so the first wall has even/odd holes, the second open-closed-closed, etc. 07:19:47 where k is one of the denominators of one of the fractions 07:19:51 in sequence 07:20:25 so the first fraction it comes to that divides it, it will pass through the wall and keep traveling down the y axis 07:20:25 got some breakfast, will now read your formal proof 07:22:05 "and it bounces ziggity zag parallel to the y, then z, then y, then z axes" can you clarify this 07:22:07 then it hits a wall that turns it to the left, towards the yz plane with a y value corresponding to the product of the fraction and the number 07:22:23 ok it looks like this: 07:22:28 (from the side) 07:22:33 \ 07:22:36 (which way is y) 07:22:42 \\ 07:22:45 \\ 07:22:48 \\ 07:23:01 etc. 07:23:34 i'm not sure i'll be able to describe it in words :/ 07:24:38 well anyway i believe it's doable if you allow that sort of stuff 07:25:05 and that sort of stuff with infinite boards might certainly make an interesting game 07:25:09 no idea how you'd do it encoding the data in the digits after the decimal 07:25:59 me neither, i've asked 2 professors and another researcher sofar 07:26:07 so can you explain clue please 07:26:08 the first said it's clearly undecidable in 2d 07:26:17 but we then later agreed maybe it's not known 07:26:49 the second said http://mathworld.wolfram.com/IlluminationProblem.html 07:26:55 -!- FreeFull has quit. 07:27:45 oh er clue 07:27:49 well clue is awesome 07:27:58 what do you wanna know 07:28:29 i should really make a more serious version of it, and a documentation that actually documentates something 07:30:09 i don't understand how you define a function by examples 07:30:12 like 07:30:44 what if i want a function that ... squares negative numbers and square roots positive numbers 07:30:57 how would i specify that and how would the compiler figure out that's what i want 07:31:49 i wonder where clue.rar is nowadays. 07:32:19 well you have to know the exact recursive algorithm 07:32:34 clue doesn't figure that out, it just saves you the trouble of actually writing it down 07:32:39 are you talking about http://esolangs.org/wiki/Clue 07:32:43 yes 07:32:52 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Clue_(oklopol) 07:32:54 who is keymaker? 07:33:24 another finnish guy 07:33:28 sometimes visits the channel 07:34:07 quintopia: writing mathematical functions might be tricky 07:34:33 because the end condition for the recursion is complicated (some error is small enough) 07:34:45 maybe you could give the comparison operator and the epsilon value as helpers 07:34:50 it might figure it out eventually 07:35:58 basically, you have . a -> b things and you have :. c -> d : e -> f things, and you have a list of helper functions 07:36:16 first, the compiler figures out how, using the helper functions, you can separate things like a from things like c or e 07:36:35 erm, doesn't need to separate e sorry 07:36:43 because a is where recursion should stop, and c is where recursion should happen 07:37:04 hi oklopol 07:37:05 -!- tertu has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 07:37:39 how easy this of course depends on what sort of helper functions you have (i think the reference function mostly had list operations and some integer operations) 07:37:55 (you can of course also use your own functions as helpers) 07:38:05 reference function? does this still exist? 07:38:36 reference function? 07:38:47 hi shachaf 07:39:01 you have an example i can see? 07:39:07 oh. 07:39:15 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Clue_(oklopol)/Quicksort 07:39:25 this compiled in less than a minute iirc 07:39:35 quicksort ~ {. [] -> [] } 07:39:39 base case 1 07:39:45 quicksort ~ {. [1] -> [1] . [2] -> [2] } base case 2 07:39:59 (one is enough, the other is basically just a comment.) 07:40:58 {:. [4 2 3 1] -> [1 2 3 4] 07:40:58 : [2 3 1] -> [1 2 3] 07:40:58 : [] -> [] 07:41:01 that says 07:41:23 if you get [4 2 3 1] as input, you should somehow get [2 3 1] out of it and [] out of it 07:41:40 then you somehow patch up [1 2 3 4] from [4 2 3 1] and [1 2 3] and [] 07:42:30 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu). 07:42:35 then it just does that same thing for all inputs 07:42:41 and usually it just works 07:43:01 (usually = in the three or so examples in the history of mankind that have been implemented) 07:43:45 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Clue_(oklopol)/SKI_calculus this was a bit trickier because you have to go very deep into the list, and the main logic ski apply has many many branches 07:43:54 (deep into the input list) 07:44:09 so that, iirc, took like 10 minutes to compile 07:44:46 oklopol: so did you figure out adjunctions 07:45:44 wellllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll 07:45:46 -!- copumpkin has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 07:47:20 -!- copumpkin has joined. 07:50:24 -!- CADD has quit (Quit: leaving). 07:53:18 quicksort helper ~ {. [1 2 3] [4 8 9] [5 6 7] -> [1 2 3 4 5 6 7] } 07:53:18 quicksort helper ~ car; quicksort append 07:53:46 i like how you need to know exactly what you want to happen and write helper functions for random subprograms 07:57:35 I think they mean “transmission”. http://cloud-3.steampowered.com/ugc/451779723596490868/3CCEC987D1FC8666EEE0A0BB1B0C69EA5093FF0E/ 07:58:39 "throwing a SHA5 up" 07:59:31 Also "RE: (no subject)". That's some realism there. 08:02:37 and top-posting, too 08:16:54 -!- TodPunk has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 08:19:11 -!- TodPunk has joined. 08:34:59 -!- oerjan has joined. 08:37:04 @messages-loud 08:37:04 fizzie asked 10h 17m 2s ago: Hey, do you Norweggers have some sort of logical rules when you use "på" and when "i" when you're explaining where someone/something is? (In Finnish the two suffixes - 08:37:05 ssa/ssä and -lla/llä seem to be used pretty much randomly, but OTOH all Swedish examples I could think of were pretty logical; mostly "i", and then "på" for things like islands.) 08:38:31 @tell fizzie Sorry, i vs. på in norwegian place names is like a whole extra random gender... there are heuristics, but they sure aren't reliable. 08:38:31 Consider it noted. 08:40:10 @tel fizzie *gender system 08:40:10 Consider it noted. 08:51:02 -!- carado has joined. 08:54:23 -!- S1 has joined. 08:54:47 What was the language again where everything is a string? 08:55:53 tcl? 08:56:17 Can't find that on the eso wiki 08:56:24 it's not esoteric :P 08:56:40 try /// then :) 08:57:08 It’s not esoteric? ;-) 08:57:50 alternatively, thue, and a heap of variants of either. 08:58:19 (ok i guess /// has only one variant that i can recall) 08:58:25 Thue it was. /// is interesting though 08:58:34 thx 09:03:27 yw 09:08:13 -!- S1 has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 09:38:39 `addquote Every time I end up on an audiophile web-crawl I get this feeling maybe we should just get rid of ears in general. 09:38:45 1135) Every time I end up on an audiophile web-crawl I get this feeling maybe we should just get rid of ears in general. 09:54:43 @tell firefly Btw, is there an algebraic structure that captures the idea of 'complemet'? I've been thinking some about that <-- complement _alone_ seems to have no other algebraic property than c(c(x)) = x, which is called an _involution_. 09:54:44 Consider it noted. 09:55:57 @massage-loud 09:55:57 oerjan said 1m 13s ago: Btw, is there an algebraic structure that captures the idea of 'complemet'? I've been thinking some about that <-- complement _alone_ seems to have no other 09:55:57 algebraic property than c(c(x)) = x, which is called an _involution_. 09:56:31 oerjan: I guess I should've been more specific, but it turns out what I was thinking of is a complemented lattice, I think 09:57:04 FireFly: in fact it's an example in wikipedia's involution page. 09:57:13 oh. 10:19:15 -!- nisstyre has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 10:23:17 oerjan: Good. 10:23:57 "A reasonably easy-to-find and vegetarian-friendly Indian restaurant in Umeda. Mina, the proprietress, speaks excellent English. Vegetarian curry is available on request.Note that this shop no longer exist. Set meals from ¥1554, curries from ¥1050, beers from ¥525." 10:24:01 i love wikis 10:24:33 :-D 10:26:07 i wonder if x86 is turing complete with only instructions «mov dword [dest], imm» and «jmp [src]» but allowing self-mod 10:26:13 ifying of those operands <-- well, I'm pretty sure it's not 10:26:27 even ignoring the finite-pointer-size problem 10:26:44 because a finite program will contain only a finite set of numbers and there's no way to make new numbers 10:29:08 I still don't have a handle on whether "Turing complete except for finite memory" can be formalized as something other than "finite state machine", even though it's something people talk about all the time 10:29:57 I usually think in terms of "would be turing complete given infinite memory" 10:30:01 if you talk about your language interacting with an external tape device, then the language only needs to provide a finite state machine 10:31:02 I guess to formalize a statement like "C is Turing complete" you would talk about a family of languages C_i where sizeof(void *) = i, and require that the languages have a uniform description (for example, a log-space TM that given i acts as an interpreter for C_i) 10:31:12 similar to the way circuit complexity classes work 10:31:59 * oerjan wonders what the "log-space" is doing there. 10:32:05 the problem is that "given infinite memory" doesn't have an obvious meaning in all cases, such as C where sizeof(void *) must be finite 10:32:26 oerjan: shrug, it's standard for circuit classes, it shouldn't be necessary if we are talking only about computability and not complexity 10:32:30 but "why not" 10:32:35 -!- darklust_ has joined. 10:34:15 people talk about C being TC with fseek(SEEK_CUR) and ignoring ftell(), but I think that would be the case even if the core of C were a finite state machine with a fixed IO pipeline 10:34:26 cause the control unit of a TM is a FSM 10:35:58 -!- Darklust has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 10:37:52 so basically C is hideously overqualified to be TC "if you add infinite memory", and therefore that variation of TC-ness is uninteresting. 10:47:41 maybe C is a bad benchmark because it's not even almost-TC (fsvo almost that's relevant for other languages) 10:49:38 that sounds... unlikely. 10:52:24 what do you mean by it's not even almost-TC? 10:52:57 it's hard to imagine a language that is _more_ almost-TC without being TC. 10:53:59 anyway I think "add a tape" doesn't work because then the language only needs to be a FSM 10:55:04 you need to talk about extending the original language's storage primitives to accommodate unbounded storage, without changing their character 10:55:54 argh jackhammer 10:56:21 more like jerkhammer 10:56:38 definitely 10:56:39 have you ever used a jackhammer? well I haven't but I did use a hammer drill for a while 10:56:45 that was p. fun 10:56:47 for a few minutes anyway 10:58:11 you see we had this tradition where the freshman build a fortified bunker in one of the dorms at the end of the school year 10:58:46 and then all of the people who were really gung ho about this being a good idea skipped town immediately after 10:59:02 and so it became my responsibility by default to demolish the bunker 10:59:20 and you haven't been the same since. 11:00:01 or anyway a significant part of it, being a 10cm thick door-size slab of reïnforced concrete in a doorway 11:01:16 we had a ```special trick''' which was to put some of the rebar inside conduit so that if you cut into the conduit with an angle grinder, you'll just spin the rebar inside it without cutting into the rebar 11:01:30 another ```special trick''' was to put some shaving cream cans inside the concrete 11:02:48 googling "10cm" finds on the first page "Is it true that the vagina is only 10 cm (3.9 inches) deep?" 11:03:04 confirmed: freshmen are insane 11:03:11 ah yes "the vagina", the international reference vagina kept at the Bureau international des poids et mesures under precise climate control 11:03:58 `addquote googling "10cm" finds on the first page "Is it true that the vagina is only 10 cm (3.9 inches) deep?" ah yes "the vagina", the international reference vagina kept at the Bureau international des poids et mesures under precise climate control 11:04:03 1136) googling "10cm" finds on the first page "Is it true that the vagina is only 10 cm (3.9 inches) deep?" ah yes "the vagina", the international reference vagina kept at the Bureau international des poids et mesures under precise climate control 11:05:07 -!- yorick has joined. 11:06:25 oerjan: the house put significant effort into selecting the kind of freshman who think this sounds like a great idea 11:06:55 should say "freshmen and freshwomen" although the colloquial "frosh" is nicely un-gendered 11:07:06 ah, to be young again, and also a robot 11:07:13 freshpeople 11:07:31 @tell madbr or something in the style of the collatz sequence <-- collatz functions, see our wiki. you are _not_ going to escape the "encoding a program" part when you prove something actually _is_ TC, though. 11:07:31 Consider it noted. 11:09:59 i guess that had to be futurama. 11:45:18 -!- ais523 has joined. 12:08:30 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 12:11:02 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 12:13:11 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 12:16:58 -!- yorick has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:18:56 -!- yorick has joined. 12:32:48 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 12:55:51 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 13:01:45 -!- JesseH has joined. 13:01:52 New idea for a language. I call it BodyMindLang 13:01:56 not 1 13:01:56 -!- boily has joined. 13:01:57 => true 13:02:00 not 2 13:02:03 -!- metasepia has joined. 13:02:03 => true 13:02:20 not 1 and not 2 13:02:22 => true 13:02:39 good true morning! 13:02:58 o/ 13:16:36 -!- yorick has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:31:36 alas, poor yorick 13:32:14 He shall be missed. 13:32:31 * boily lobs a strangely misshapen, not-quite-from-this-Earth cranium over at lexande 13:32:51 * JesseH hops on his Bike 13:42:41 -!- yorick has joined. 13:56:54 `unicode MOUNTAIN BICYCLIST 13:56:56 Unknown character. 13:57:22 `unidecode 🚵 13:57:24 ​[U+D83D DUNNO] [U+DEB5 DUNNO] 13:57:32 darn. 13:57:44 fizzie: nice dunno. 13:59:55 It's not very non-BMP-friendly, because of an UCS-2 Python build. 14:01:06 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 14:13:11 kmc: this coallier person seems pretty douchey, wtf 14:17:18 `unidecode 北北 14:17:19 ​[U+5317 CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-5317] [U+F963 CJK COMPATIBILITY IDEOGRAPH-F963] 14:17:56 catchy names 14:18:15 Bike: yup 14:18:55 Oh my god, Bike you're a real person? Sorry for sitting on you mate 14:19:13 i'm a real bike 14:19:26 and a reeeeeal hero 14:19:59 O_o 14:20:02 whatever you say man 14:23:04 -!- tertu has joined. 14:23:27 whatever you say bike 14:23:36 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DSVDcw6iW8 14:46:28 -!- constant has changed nick to variable. 14:52:11 -!- asie has joined. 14:57:12 -!- nooodl has joined. 15:21:59 -!- conehead has joined. 15:29:28 -!- mrhmouse has joined. 15:34:35 Bike is a real hero? 15:36:13 -!- muskrat has quit (Quit: Leaving). 15:42:52 -!- Sprocklem has joined. 15:46:30 -!- monotone_ has joined. 15:48:10 -!- int-e_ has joined. 15:51:10 -!- Gregor` has joined. 15:51:23 mrhmouse: Bike is everything. Bike is the Whole Experience of the Universe. Bike has two wheels. 15:51:55 -!- rodgort` has joined. 15:52:39 -!- monotone has quit (*.net *.split). 15:52:39 -!- rodgort has quit (*.net *.split). 15:52:39 -!- int-e has quit (*.net *.split). 15:52:40 -!- Gregor has quit (*.net *.split). 15:52:40 -!- HackEgo has quit (*.net *.split). 15:52:52 -!- HackEgo has joined. 15:59:40 -!- int-e_ has changed nick to int-e. 16:02:07 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 16:16:53 -!- asie has left ("Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"). 16:19:42 -!- FreeFull has joined. 16:22:11 -!- Gregor` has changed nick to Gregor. 16:34:19 Are the registers initialized at anything in particular in x86? 16:34:44 I guess some are like the instruction pointer and such, but what about the rest 16:34:57 Like the address of the stack and such 16:37:03 -!- monotone_ has changed nick to polytone. 16:40:00 Are they at 0 on power on and initialized by the BIOS? 16:44:25 I thought the initial value was undefined...? Just some random value? 16:44:40 A lot of it is defined. 16:45:19 From what I remember they're condensators (kinda), so I would guess that either they are drained on power off or left at the old value 16:45:24 So I guess either 0 or random 16:45:28 But I don't know which 16:45:37 The (somewhat dated) copy of the AMD64 Architecture Programming Manual has a section 14.1.3 Processor Initialisation state. 16:45:43 And I don't know if it's initialized at anything by BIOS 16:45:50 registers are static RAM so they're logic gates in a feedback configuration, not capacitors 16:45:57 disclaimer: may be completely wrong 16:46:33 at minimum CS will be initialized in addition to IP 16:46:44 so CS is 0xF000, other segment registers are 0, RAX is 0, RDX contains some CPU ID information, other basic registers are 0 ... 16:46:58 they are either 0, 1, random, undefined, unknown or blueberry flavoured. 16:47:05 and RIP is 0xFFF0. 16:47:19 even flags are defined :) 16:47:25 what's the CPU ID info useful for? 16:47:35 RAX? 16:47:52 RAX is the x86-64 64 bit version of AX/EAX. 16:47:57 Ah 16:48:08 Most doc I've seen stops at 32 16:48:08 some of the flags register must be defined to successfully execute an instruction 16:48:14 like trap flag = 0 16:48:26 In any case, those processor manuals are the right place to look up such information :) 16:49:09 Also what exactly does the stack definition do in the assembly? 16:49:18 hm? 16:49:18 The .stack 256 or whatever it may be 16:49:28 oh, which assembler? 16:49:29 (rflags is essentially set to 0, but there's a reserved bit that is forced to be 1 :) ) 16:49:43 I guess the general purpose is to define the size of the stack, but how does that translate in the processor? 16:49:46 also has anyone seen the electrical datasheet for a current Intel / AMD processor? with like a thousand entry pinout list? :) 16:49:46 In 8086 16:49:49 are those public? 16:50:00 I guess they're public enough? 16:50:03 Slereah_: no, what assembler program 16:50:11 Slereah_: well have you seen one? 16:50:18 No, I just assume kinda 16:50:25 u make an ass out of u and me 16:50:26 Otherwise it might be hard to program anything on them 16:50:47 I think I have seen the pinout list for a recent-ish socket, but not a full datasheet 16:50:51 The examples I see are usually in Borland C 16:51:02 Slereah_: no, the architecture manuals are enough to do programming 16:51:14 you don't need to know the electrical specifications of the particular chip your code is executing on 16:51:21 ...usually 16:51:43 right. no I have not seen any detailed electrical datasheets. Then again, I've never really looked for them. 16:51:51 but if you look up the datasheet for (say) an 8-bit AVR microcontroller, it has info both on "this instruction does that" and also "this pin needs this many volts" 16:52:30 Don't they have to give such things to the patent office? 16:52:42 Yeah, but with those guys (embedded processors) you are you are quite likely to be your own motherboard manufacturer. 16:52:45 doubtful 16:53:07 Then I don't know 16:53:07 patents are pretty general, you don't need to submit detailed specs of every product which invokes the patent, I don't think 16:53:20 You never know with those fucks 16:53:53 Slereah_: only if you patent them, and even then you don't have to describe anything at the packaging level (which pin does what). And you can split features into many patents (signaling on busses, communicating with memory, etc.) 16:54:11 Slereah_: and I don't know about your .stack; googling with "borland C" doesn't find anything, and it's not something I recall from any assembler I've used 16:54:33 hm, MASM has a .STACK: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bffws6w0(v=vs.71).aspx 16:54:46 http://prism2.mem.drexel.edu/~rares/asm4.htm < for instance 16:54:51 MODEL small 16:54:51 STACK 266 16:54:57 mr-: Yes, but I'm not sure that it helps much in this case. 16:55:01 Er, wrong channel. 16:55:06 Apparently the MODEL describes where the code and data are stored 16:55:11 so it's probably more of a linker directive, which tells the linker how much space to reserve for the stack 16:55:21 http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bffws6w0%28v=vs.110%29.aspx 16:55:39 I guess STACK initializes the stack base and allocates some memory up to 266*4 in that case? 16:55:39 it probably ends up in bytes 10-11 of an EXE file, http://www.delorie.com/djgpp/doc/exe/ 16:55:47 and puts something in the .EXE saying what the initial value of SS:SP is? 16:55:48 Maybe? 16:56:00 ah yep 16:56:02 (obviously that's old DOS EXE files, not the sille PE ones we have nowadays) 16:56:04 *silly 16:56:34 I bet that with .COM files you're not allowed to use .STACK because you're stuck in the TINY memory model anyway 16:56:45 speaking of PE executables: http://blog.theincredibleholk.org/blog/2013/11/18/booting-to-rust/ 16:56:47 -!- MindlessDrone has joined. 16:56:59 boot to Rust via UEFI, with no assembly 16:57:06 (I say "probably" because the 8086 segmented addressing model has so much aliasing) 16:58:09 kmc: it could still be a declaration that a linker can use to check whether everything (code, data, declared stack) fite into 65300 bytes (256 bytes go to the PCB (process control block)). 16:58:21 so 65280. darn :) 16:58:35 but would it also emit code to initialize SS:SP? 16:58:46 what for? the OS does that for the program 16:58:49 I think DOS does that for you to a fixed point, probably just the end of that 64k 16:58:52 right 16:59:04 based on the header fields, or just SP=0xFFFE for a COM file. 16:59:08 but yeah, I guess the checking is still potentially useful 16:59:55 that said, I'm not sure whether .stack is allowed in the .tiny model :) It's been a while ... 17:00:21 -!- Sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 17:00:21 Also most documents seem pretty vague on how many registers there are 17:00:33 There's the basic ones described by most 17:00:38 Then the flag things 17:00:44 Then control registers and debug??? 17:00:49 the answer is "a fuckload" 17:00:50 And divider??? 17:00:56 again, processor manuals are the source to go to (but have a history of not talking about all registers *anyway*) 17:00:58 Are they all accessible? 17:01:06 yes read the manual 17:01:11 Thx 17:01:35 I think the less manual-y question is "is it a good idea to access them" 17:01:56 in particular, read the bit of the Intel manual where it talks about the VMX virtualization feature, because that describes the layout of an in-memory struct used to save/restore ~all state from a VM 17:02:10 this is x86? i don't think there's like, a mov-word-to-flags-reg ability 17:02:16 including some things that aren't directly accessible, like the segment descriptor which was loaded when a segment selector was last set 17:02:27 Bike: there's lahf / sahf 17:02:31 Bike: there is lah... 17:02:34 too slow 17:02:40 Slereah_: "good idea" depends on what you're trying to do.......................................................................... 17:02:41 right, of course there is 17:03:04 Slereah_: control registers are essential to the operation of a typical operating system 17:03:04 Well currently mostly trying to get a feel of Assembly 17:03:14 but are invisible to userspace code 17:03:14 SAHF: Welcome to Stewards for Affordable Housing for the Future 17:03:15 I'll probably stick with the usual registers from now on 17:03:20 I'll see the rest later 17:03:27 they set things like, where in physical memory does the page table live 17:03:48 debug registers are useful for debugging, e.g. breakpoint when a particular memory address is accessed 17:04:00 Bike: obviously the mnemonics are for "load ah register from flags" and "store ah registers into flags" 17:04:10 yeah i looked it up 17:04:17 unrelatedly, it's hard to take toilet day seriously, i blame sgeo 17:04:18 they too can only be directly manipulated by ring-0 (i.e. kernel-mode) code 17:04:21 Assembly is kind of weird 17:04:30 a typical OS will provide some interface like ptrace() for using those debug registers 17:04:32 what's weird about it 17:04:33 If they're just mnemonics for opcodes, why are most of them so cryptic 17:04:44 I guess back then it was to save space, but nowadays? 17:06:00 are you saying PCLMULQDQ isn't immediately obvious 17:06:22 Well that one is obvious, but who would guess that mov is move 17:08:42 or that jmp is branch ;-) 17:08:43 Slereah_: the regs you're likely to see in user code are: R[ABCD]X RSI RDI RSP RBP and their sub-components; RIP (in RIP-relative memory addressing), flags (implicitly for the most part), x87 FPU registers ST0 through ST7, MMX registers MM0 through MM7, SSE registers XMM0 through XMM15 17:09:01 and segment selectors, mostly only FS and GS these days 17:09:09 (though honestly, making 'b' the mnemonic for 'branch' isn't all that sane either.) 17:09:29 and R8 to R15 17:09:30 kmc : All the R's I saw in most documents, the rest I have no idea! 17:09:43 int-e: oh yeah duh 17:10:11 But well I guess I'll stick with simple things for now 17:10:15 Like "print a letter" 17:10:20 sounds good 17:10:37 Also I saw that it's not too complicated to access the PC speaker, which is neat 17:10:56 * int-e hands Slereah_ some black ink and lead, 17:10:57 in 16-bit code you're more likely to use the segment overrides 17:11:09 anyway yeah you should probably keep learning rather than listening to me recite lists :) 17:11:10 int-e : Real men use a brush 17:11:35 fs: is used for thread-local storage :) 17:12:09 assembly code in calligraphy 17:14:01 I got "flat assembler" for assemblin', I'd better see the syntax there 17:14:51 hmm, is nasm still maintained? 17:14:57 Not a clue! 17:15:06 Really I thought Assembler would be much worse than it is 17:15:09 "real men" jokes are distasteful because tying this or that skill to masculinity is problematic 17:15:23 But it has constants, procedures and control structures :o 17:15:43 (yes it is :-) ) 17:16:12 It's basically C with a slightly more distasteful handling of variables 17:16:32 people make a big deal about x86 being so complicated but it's not that hard when you're writing it yourself, as opposed to understanding what a compiler has spit out 17:16:45 much of the complexity works in the favor of the assembly author 17:17:05 I guess reading binary might be tough, yeah 17:17:14 well you disassemble it 17:17:21 but you lose a lot of context 17:17:24 How are the jump instructions translated, by the way? 17:17:27 It's like 17:17:31 .jump point 17:17:33 do shit 17:17:34 Slereah_: typically an offset in bytes 17:17:37 JMP whatever 17:17:47 -!- Frooxius has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 17:17:52 one of the main things an assembler provides is resolving those labels into byte offsets 17:17:54 Is the jump point translated as the address of that point? 17:17:56 (Assembler documentation like http://www.nasm.us/pub/nasm/releasebuilds/2.11rc1/doc/nasmdoc.pdf can also be a viable source for learning about processor features.) 17:17:56 or absolute addresses depending 17:17:57 yes 17:18:30 (and one of the main things a linker provides is, deferring that process) 17:18:57 (such that you can compile/assemble many files independently into something that's like machine code but still has jump targets in a symbolic form, and then link them all together quickly) 17:19:08 one time i tried reading 6502 asm that had this convention where you could put * next to a line, and then "jmp ++" would mean "jump to the second line ahead with a *", etc. that was quite confusing 17:19:19 lolwut 17:19:47 GNU as has something like that; you can write numeric labels 1: or 2: and then jmp to them as 1f (meaning "next 1:") or 1b (meaning "previous 1:") 17:19:58 very useful for inline assembly 17:20:16 Oh. A puzzle for Slereah: figure out the difference between jmp short foo and jmp near foo. (Not quite serious.) 17:20:31 so like for a loop you'd have "* ...loop body... jump-if-test -;" 17:20:43 Slereah_: I find an absolutely vital tool for understanding assembly is to run a disassembler on the output 17:21:09 then you see what instructions were really encoded, with machine code and mnemonics side by side 17:21:21 -!- Frooxius has joined. 17:24:53 -!- ais523 has changed nick to ais523\unfoog. 17:24:55 I'll give it a shot, thanks 17:25:32 I assume all the header shit is either preprocessor shit or initialization? 17:25:57 header in the assembly source or in the binary? 17:26:03 Assembly source 17:26:12 Like replacing the constants and initilizing the segment registers and such 17:29:23 -!- Oj742 has joined. 17:32:06 -!- tertu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 17:32:23 -!- tertu has joined. 17:36:04 I wonder if anyone ever made some hardware cellular automaton 17:36:08 Probably not too hard to do 17:41:01 -!- tertu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 17:41:14 -!- tertu has joined. 17:41:29 ask google 17:41:57 -!- MindlessDrone has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 17:42:44 http://www.univ-orleans.fr/lifo/Members/Jerome.Durand-Lose/Recherche/Publications/1996_RT-LIP_1996-01.pdf 17:42:47 So it seems 17:51:09 -!- Oj742 has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 17:56:00 -!- MindlessDrone has joined. 18:01:19 I don't see what'd be hard at doing cellular automatons in Hardware 18:02:13 are we talking 'lay out a circuit' hardware or 'with a processor but no particular OS' hardware 18:02:18 either way it seems simple enough 18:02:45 'lay out a circuit' I assume 18:03:27 yeah 18:03:51 i should really figure out the VGA driver on my FPGA so i could try that>_> 18:04:11 doing it efficiently is probably hard 18:04:24 but doing it at all... 18:04:29 vhdl to the rescue :) 18:05:00 is it that hard? you'd just need a little register, and inputs from the clock and the neighborhood, for each cell 18:05:17 i mean, something like hashlife would be hard, of course 18:06:00 depends on the automaton 18:06:07 I mean 18:06:18 you could just use some sram 18:06:24 :) 18:06:35 store some 2D stuff in there 18:06:39 and boing.. you're done 18:07:31 depends on how much storage you need 18:07:46 well what kind of automata do you like, Slereah_ 18:07:57 it'd be even easier with a 1D automaton 18:08:04 like wolframs thingy 18:08:21 that would just fit neatly into a single bitstream 18:08:59 i did wolfram automata on a shitty calculator once. surely hardware can't be harder 18:10:32 -!- Taneb has joined. 18:12:14 if you can program it you can also program it in vhdl 18:12:18 and if you can program it in vhdl 18:12:22 it's hardware-ish 18:13:28 Going to university has made me realise that while I'm not the best programmer, this channel has set me up with a brilliant background knowledge of the theoretical side of CS 18:13:30 Thanks 18:14:04 great, so you can help us analyze the time complexity of this thing 18:14:05 then you can only imagine how I feel here ;) 18:14:07 (nb nah) 18:14:26 Bike: i've analyzed it and the time complexity is "very" hth 18:14:34 I assume I'm the dumbest person in this channel. 18:16:51 let's see, module pt (input clk, input [7:0] neighborhood, output [...] out); reg [...] state; assign out = state; always @(posedge clk) state <= ...some function of state and neighborhood...; endmodule 18:16:55 and i think that's about it. 18:17:15 just make a couple thousand of those and it's all good 18:18:25 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 18:19:57 i dunno vhdl ;( 18:20:14 It's pretty easy 18:20:22 Everywhere where you'd expect not to put a semicolon 18:20:27 just put a fucking semicolon there 18:20:31 sensible 18:20:36 everywhere where you'd put a comma 18:20:42 try putting a semicolon first 18:21:10 this is an accurate description :) 18:21:23 I think there is a context that uses commas, though 18:21:30 Yes 18:21:32 Port Maps use commas 18:21:34 both of them are frickin verbose 18:21:42 other list-like stuff uses semicolon as a seperator 18:22:08 but it's illegal to put a semicolon at the end of such a list 18:22:21 that's one exception to the previously stated rules 18:22:36 also 18:22:43 I think there's one place where you have to write 18:22:48 GENERIC () MAP () 18:23:05 and there's a place where you have to write GENERIC (); MAP (); 18:23:29 which makes sense though 18:23:42 somehowe 18:24:28 obviously i should just get zzo to give me money for an open source neuromorphic fpga, and then i can make my own synthesizer for my own language, w/ blackjack & hookers 18:27:06 It ain't a party with just one hooker . 18:28:02 mostly blackjack, practically speaking 18:28:11 -!- carado has quit (Quit: Leaving). 18:29:43 I'd love to see a vhdl synthesizer that can produce plans for mechanical hardware 18:29:52 with ... like ... 18:30:13 piñón 18:30:17 mechanical? 18:30:28 gear wheels 18:30:33 Bike: Yeah 18:30:50 piñón is apparently pine nuts? 18:31:02 no 18:31:02 and i have an esolang idea that's basically that (or rather the vhdl equivalent) 18:31:12 since like, digital operations are hard. 18:31:28 -!- carado has joined. 18:31:52 Mechanical Computers don't need energy when they're not doing stuff . 18:32:07 So lazy 18:32:18 you'd have to use a crank 18:32:23 and crank 18:32:36 apparentely the word for that is crank 18:33:00 *really* 18:33:03 well, real mechanical computers usually used motor drives, since you need it to have an exact speed 18:33:08 cranks were just used for input 18:33:19 with like 18:33:21 steam powered? 18:33:25 Awesome 18:33:34 I'd love to have a steam powered super computer 18:33:38 that'll show china 18:33:45 steam?? this is the 1940s 18:33:50 or whoever is currently leading in this cyber d*** contest 18:33:52 i mean, you could use steam if you wanted, i guess 18:34:05 just anything that can get you a steadily turning gear. 18:34:09 you need that for integrators. 18:34:09 I don't know when steam got old 18:34:52 depends on what you mean by steam, i guess... the obvious nuclear reactor design which i think is still used is basically steam 18:35:14 right 18:35:46 Regular steam engines 18:36:06 anyway i don't really know what real mechanical computers used, i'm pretty sure that by wwii they were basically on diesel 18:37:14 power source isn't terribly important though, the trick is making the components have enough accuracy 18:37:28 lemme tell you, CVTs are some weird-ass shit to make 18:52:51 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 18:56:50 Balanced ternary electronic computers are so much simpler 19:02:58 Controversy at the university of York as HackSoc, the university's computer science society, declares an upcoming game-making society to be stepping on their toes 19:03:43 Taneb: that sort of thing never happens at Birmingham, it's considered an advantage to be able to get away with having two basically identical societies 19:04:18 ais523\unfoog, doesn't Birmingham have like 5 universities 19:04:41 yeah, but only one is the University of Birmingham 19:04:47 the others all have different names 19:04:52 Actually, York has two and a half universities 19:05:07 also two of them only became classified as universities recently 19:05:35 (University of York, York St John University, and Hull York Medical School) 19:05:52 (and strictly speaking the last one is half part of the first one) 19:06:06 thus the "and a half" 19:07:09 And also half part of the University of Hull 19:08:15 But the University of York has one of the highest duck to student ratios of any university in the world! 19:12:02 http://doctorbeet.blogspot.co.uk/2013/11/lg-smart-tvs-logging-usb-filenames-and.html 19:18:51 -!- myname has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 19:26:40 -!- myname has joined. 19:30:07 -!- oerjan has joined. 19:50:16 wow 19:50:26 labeling long horizontal lines "Horizontal long lines" is genius 19:50:38 @figure 4 of that high speed harware automaton paper 19:50:38 Unknown command, try @list 19:50:50 hairyware 19:50:57 3 vertical long lines 19:50:58 cool 20:00:08 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 20:00:36 -!- augur_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:01:06 -!- augur has joined. 20:01:42 i think the zuse z1 had an electric motor 20:03:48 -!- augur_ has joined. 20:05:47 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 20:07:43 What paper? 20:16:16 -!- aloril has joined. 20:22:05 -!- variable has changed nick to function. 20:25:54 -!- Bike has joined. 20:27:45 -!- nisstyre has joined. 20:27:55 -!- tertu has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 20:29:43 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 20:34:22 ~yi 20:34:22 Your divination: "Humbling" to "Swallowing" 20:37:53 -!- aloril has joined. 20:40:27 -!- Sprocklem has joined. 20:43:18 -!- tertu has joined. 20:49:11 -!- Sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 20:58:07 -!- augur_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:58:43 -!- augur has joined. 20:59:04 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 20:59:14 -!- MindlessDrone has quit (Quit: MindlessDrone). 20:59:23 -!- augur has joined. 21:00:29 -!- tertu has quit (Read error: Connection timed out). 21:01:29 -!- tertu has joined. 21:21:49 ~yi 21:21:49 Your divination: "Stripping" to "Swallowing" 21:21:57 swallowing 21:21:59 time for food. 21:22:43 fungot: you're way better than metasepia 21:22:44 shachaf: 1.8.5 would allocate 128 bytes per loop.) 21:22:53 fungot: and way better than lambdabot 21:22:54 shachaf: and it still seems like an odd goal, which is deterministic, it just requires making your eval support a fnord flag for fnord would just muck up the puzzle 21:23:01 fungot: especially with the new management!! 21:23:02 shachaf: abum hehe i've done that kind of sh1t hasn't happened in linux for graphics pretty much all sedative drugs, very similar to the list 21:23:53 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 21:24:18 shachaf: :-( 21:24:35 shachaf: is fungot better than ruddy? 21:24:35 mrhmouse: yes... i see someone who is in almost as many channels as you're in, you can do 21:24:35 clap clap! 21:24:42 fungot is better than ruddy 21:24:42 shachaf: hm. so you're golden. 21:24:43 yes... i see someone who is in almost as many channels as you're in, you can do 21:25:14 well, I can't argue with golden 21:28:08 :-( 21:28:41 :-) 21:29:03 int-e: how come i'm not in the lambdabot admins list 21:30:44 I took elliott's list of admins. 21:31:04 shachaf: don't diss my lovely bot. 21:31:13 -!- tertu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 21:31:30 -!- tertu has joined. 21:32:01 -!- muskrat has joined. 21:32:09 fungot is lovely too 21:32:09 shachaf: if i'm going north or south" i am part of the ' offcuts' of several famous single malts. 21:32:15 -!- ter2 has joined. 21:32:26 fungot: exactly 21:32:26 shachaf: ( cadr fnord) doesn't properly clear the screen correctly: just scheme code in a module are statically decidable. regexes, otoh... would be very helpful 21:32:36 -!- tertu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 21:33:59 I'd be slightly surprised if (cadr fnord) did clear the screen. 21:34:00 shachaf: and I don't think we're short on lambdabot admins, are we? 21:34:30 int-e: You'd be surprised. 21:35:44 yes I would 21:36:31 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving). 21:52:21 -!- muskrat has quit (Quit: Leaving). 22:02:39 -!- boily has quit (Quit: SUPERLATIVE CHICKEN!). 22:02:41 -!- metasepia has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:03:57 -!- ter2 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 22:05:27 -!- Taneb has joined. 22:06:31 That's weird. Told mplayer to play a .mp3 file, and it's showing a 88x31 "video" of the CC-BY-NC-SA license logo banner icon thing. 22:07:10 fizzie: are the file contents actually MP3 format? 22:07:34 According to 'file', sure. 22:07:42 "Audio file with ID3 version 2.3.0, contains: MPEG ADTS, layer III, v1, 128 kbps, 44.1 kHz, JntStereo" 22:08:03 I guess it's some curious ID3 image thing, but I've never seen that happen before. 22:08:10 interesting indeed! 22:08:18 Also it keeps complaining, though it plays just fine. 22:08:41 http://sprunge.us/KEIN and so on. 22:08:52 Not just one but three "video" streams. 22:09:21 Must be some kind of a mplayer2 thing, I don't recall the old one ever "playing" ID3 tag images. 22:13:47 -!- ter2 has joined. 22:36:46 oerjan: imo add chu spaces to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topological_space#Specializations_and_generalizations 22:37:12 imo do it yourself 22:37:47 imo i don't remember my wikipedia password 22:38:01 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=599852 22:38:17 imo ask them to send it to your email 22:40:25 ion: sweet. 22:42:05 -!- darklust_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 22:43:20 http://www.preposterousuniverse.com/blog/2013/11/19/scientists-confirm-existence-of-moon/ "Scientists Confirm Existence of Moon" 22:53:52 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Insert pun here). 22:57:44 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:57:51 -!- ter2 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 22:58:17 -!- augur has joined. 22:59:47 -!- augur_ has joined. 23:02:29 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 23:07:22 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 23:10:57 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 23:15:44 I forgot how sad Interstella 5555 was 23:16:13 that seems like a good thing if it was sad 23:16:30 what if i value sadness more than happiness. 23:16:34 afaict it's about the space smurfs? 23:16:47 yeah. one of em dies 23:16:57 It's an anime opera by Daft Punk about space smurfs 23:17:05 god damn it i have one more time stuck in my head now 23:17:48 killing off a character isn't that sad 23:18:14 Taneb: have you seen Grave of the Fireflies? 23:18:19 mrhmouse, I have not 23:18:24 Is that an opera by Daft Punk 23:18:29 it should be 23:19:15 it's my understanding that if interstella 5555 is sad grave of the fireflies will convince you to hang yourself halfway through the film 23:19:15 But no, it's a film by Isao Takahata 23:19:22 i have, it's at least 100% more sad 23:19:40 Bike: that sounds about right. you might be understating it 23:19:47 well, i've never seen it. 23:20:17 don't really intend to either, god knows i've seen enough sad world wars in snow 23:20:51 I've seen enough sad things this century 23:21:45 GofF is pretty high on my "my face is leaking please help" list 23:21:50 *GotF 23:22:14 actually make that at least 500% more sad 23:22:25 at least 23:22:53 I don't think we can call GotF "sad" because otherwise by comparison nothing else is sad ever 23:23:19 actually, gotf makes me think of another japanese film i haven't seen that's probbly near the same level 23:23:28 do tell 23:23:30 or at least, it's nine hours of a socialist getting eaten alive by the IJA 23:23:46 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Human_Condition_(film_series) 23:23:49 that is, uh, not really the same 23:24:30 oh he's not being literally eaten alive 23:24:39 lol 23:25:37 outside of the subject of war, the only other film content that's made me that sad was season 2 (or 3?) of the Dr. Who reboot. But that was some time ago. 23:34:13 doctor who lost the ability to evoke any emotion in me other than cringe long ago 23:36:38 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving). 23:38:15 it's campy and cheesy 23:38:19 but I like that 23:39:13 mind you, I haven't seen anything past Tennant.. so I'm not sure if that still holds. 23:50:12 -!- nooodl has quit (Quit: Ik ga weg). 23:51:15 -!- Sprocklem has joined. 23:51:37 mrhmouse, it does not 23:52:54 -!- CADD has joined.