←2013-11-23 2013-11-24 2013-11-25→ ↑2013 ↑all
00:06:11 -!- Sprocklem has joined.
00:08:14 <kmc> http://imgur.com/gallery/IkUDj
00:10:38 <oerjan> have the youtube commenters migrated to imgur
00:13:33 -!- kmc has set topic: SUNTORY BOSS is the boss of them all since 1992 | Koirammekokaan ei lennä? :( | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ or http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
00:15:03 -!- prooftechnique has joined.
00:17:26 <Phantom_Hoover> hmm
00:17:57 <Phantom_Hoover> i see a few places calling the real plane with a point at infinity 'projective' (e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elliptic_curve#The_group_law )
00:18:12 <Phantom_Hoover> this does not make much sense to me
00:18:16 <shachaf> TRESPASSERS W
00:20:56 <Phantom_Hoover> oh, in that article it's the specific point at infinity corresponding to the y axis
00:21:03 <kmc> shachaf: :)
00:21:43 <oerjan> the projective plane has a line at infinity, not just a point.
00:21:53 * kmc -> afk
00:22:08 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, this is why i was confused
00:22:47 <Phantom_Hoover> (while we're at it: is the surface at infinity of the 3d projective space a 2-sphere or the projective plane?)
00:27:10 <oerjan> eep
00:28:04 <oerjan> the projective plane.
00:29:46 -!- zzo38 has joined.
00:30:16 <oerjan> in homogeneous coordinates, the subspaces at infinity are just the elements that have a fixed coordinate 0, so you cannot normalize it to 1.
00:30:41 <oerjan> but this is the same as the projective space of one lower dimension.
00:32:29 <oerjan> that is, R^3 embeds into the projective space as (x,y,z,1) and points of the form (x,y,z,0) are the infinite remainder.
00:42:46 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, yeah, i realised this right after asking
00:43:19 <Phantom_Hoover> it's just the subspace (x,y,z,0) over the same equivalence relation as the normal projective plane
00:48:36 -!- yorick has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:53:56 -!- impomatic has quit (Quit: impomatic).
00:55:23 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
00:56:47 -!- sebbu has joined.
01:02:14 <gigimoi> Working on my own eso language, currently looks like this: https://github.com/gigimoi/B2D/blob/master/examples/fibonnaci.b2d
01:04:48 <oerjan> it's "fibonacci" hth
01:06:38 <oerjan> hm that would look better if [ and ] swapped meanings in the opposite direction
01:09:07 <Phantom_Hoover> for years i thought it was fibocanni
01:10:01 <Taneb> I though paradigm was pronounced paradiggum
01:10:26 <Phantom_Hoover> i thought that also
01:11:41 <fizzie> oerjan: And perhaps you'd use ⎴ and ⎵ when going up/down too?
01:12:00 <kmc> it's ok, mispronouncing words because you've only read them is a sign of erudition (pretend i mispronounced the word "erudition" here)
01:14:41 <oerjan> fizzie: i see no point in using those little squares
01:14:58 <zzo38> Yes I have pronounce words wrong too due to only reading them, and so have other people, even Feynman was studying biology but never learned it in the class so he mispronounced everything too, and my father said he also mispronounced everything at first; a lot of people do.
01:18:09 <fizzie> @ oerjan unidecode ⎴⎵
01:18:11 <HackEgo> oerjan: [U+23B4 TOP SQUARE BRACKET] [U+23B5 BOTTOM SQUARE BRACKET]
01:18:53 -!- Sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
01:25:46 -!- CADD has joined.
01:31:24 -!- nooodl_ has joined.
01:31:37 -!- nooodl has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
01:39:18 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
01:41:37 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving).
01:56:39 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
02:13:57 -!- augur has joined.
02:28:45 <zzo38> The dancing Imakuni?'s card is much more useful than the ordinary Imakuni?'s card! (The dancing Imakuni?'s card allows you to make your active pokemon card sleeping, confused, paralyzed, or poisoned, according to your choice.)
02:31:21 <Taneb> zzo38, yesterday afternoon I played my first session of D&D
02:32:03 <Taneb> During which in the first encounter my character got transformed into a walking plot device
02:33:58 <Taneb> Which is kind of useful because now the party actually has a reason to keep me alive
02:34:11 <Taneb> (my character is the only nice character in the party)
02:34:47 <zzo38> Taneb: Ah, OK. Well, now you don't have to defend yourself against attacks they make against you, I suppose.
02:35:02 <Taneb> zzo38, I thought it was fun to play a pacifist
02:35:26 <zzo38> Taneb: Well, that is OK if you like to do so!
02:35:38 <Taneb> So far it's been a fun constraint for me at least
02:35:54 <Taneb> I think the rest of the party is a bit annoyed but then again they are all quite combat-oriented
02:36:08 <zzo38> I don't play combat-oriented though either
02:36:50 <Taneb> Also I do not associate a recording of my voice to me at all
02:37:04 <Taneb> Unless either I've just said it or there's a picture of me
02:38:01 -!- prooftechnique has quit.
02:38:39 <zzo38> Maybe it is true of some other people too though
02:38:55 -!- prooftechnique has joined.
02:38:57 <Taneb> Also I quite like my voice when I don't associate it with me
02:38:59 <zzo38> Do you like my own kind of playing of Dungeons&Dragons game?
02:39:02 <Taneb> But when I do I don't like it
02:39:09 <Taneb> zzo38, can you describe that briefly
02:40:33 <Taneb> ?
02:41:19 <zzo38> Well, I try to affect the situation rather than making direct attacks and so on (although sometimes I will, the other characters in my party are better at combat); I also like to play monster character. There are various other things too I do, such as strange spells, and I always try to conserve all spells and everything rather than use them, if possible
02:41:41 <zzo38> You would have to read it to understand (it is a file on my computer, you can download)
02:41:58 <Taneb> That sounds fun
02:42:20 <Taneb> I think it is the DM's first game, though, and I want to make it easy for him
02:42:31 <Taneb> So I'm sticking with his quest
02:42:32 <zzo38> OK
02:42:52 <zzo38> This is my game recording: http://zzo38computer.org/dnd/recording/level20.tex
02:43:31 <zzo38> (Whenever I update it, I will post a message starting with "danddreclist" to this channel.)
02:45:05 <Taneb> Well, goodnight!
02:45:24 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving).
03:01:49 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu).
03:15:02 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
03:15:04 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined.
03:15:47 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Client Quit).
03:15:51 -!- tertu has joined.
03:20:00 -!- Sprocklem has joined.
03:24:49 -!- gigimoi has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
03:59:14 <shachaf> "Please help us improve our service by answering a few questions about your experience: * Take the survey * No, I do not wish to take the survey at this time"
03:59:20 <shachaf> I feel like this is a trap.
04:00:05 <ion> The only winning move is not to play.
04:00:13 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
04:05:53 <zzo38> You could possibly ignore the question if you don't like it, I suppose.
04:07:11 <zzo38> Imakuni?'s card is *not* useless!
04:09:35 -!- polytone has changed nick to monotone.
04:11:27 -!- nisstyre has joined.
04:20:40 <shachaf> oerjan: what's with the infinite redirect in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Johnstone
04:21:00 <shachaf> oerjan: and in the meanwhile completely ignoring https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Johnstone_(mathematician)
04:21:03 <shachaf> what's with that
04:33:53 -!- nooodl_ has quit (Quit: Ik ga weg).
04:37:42 -!- nisstyre has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
04:41:56 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
04:47:28 -!- jconn has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
04:47:42 -!- Jesin has joined.
04:50:15 -!- jconn has joined.
04:50:24 -!- Frooxius has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
05:12:01 -!- prooftechnique has quit.
05:31:50 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
05:55:45 -!- sebbu has joined.
05:56:23 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host).
05:56:24 -!- sebbu has joined.
06:03:13 -!- Sgeo_ has joined.
06:05:25 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
06:24:27 -!- Frooxius has joined.
06:26:05 <ion> http://www.reddit.com/r/shittyaskreddit/comments/1rc44v/i_dont_know_why_people_add_a_question_mark_to_a/
06:27:01 <shachaf> ion: Because it's fun?
06:46:41 -!- Bike has joined.
06:46:55 <Bike> kmc: http://i.imgur.com/87zBrsJ.jpg
06:49:04 <shachaf> Bike: totally
06:49:37 <Bike> oh hey mispronunciation in the logs
06:49:45 <Bike> today i found out that i've been saying 'array' wrong for presumably years
06:49:46 <shachaf> i live right by crescent park
06:50:14 <shachaf> those billionaires, man. somebody gotta do something
06:50:23 * Bike nods
06:52:38 <shachaf> i live on the east palo alto side of the border, though
06:53:05 <Fiora> Bike: is it "uh-ray"?
06:53:24 <Bike> don't think so
06:53:24 <shachaf> which makes me the kind of people they want to keep out :'(
06:53:32 <Bike> i already forgot though
06:53:40 <Bike> not like i use it in conversation much
06:53:51 <Bike> relatedly i explained what an FPGA is to my dad, that was fun
07:00:11 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
07:05:40 -!- Sgeo has joined.
07:08:07 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
07:24:47 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
07:29:51 -!- tertu has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
07:38:05 <ion> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/A9aQ7DYCYAAb0fU.jpg
07:42:53 <kmc> deja vu
07:43:53 -!- Sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
07:44:57 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: zzo38).
08:10:45 -!- tromp__ has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
08:13:53 -!- tromp__ has joined.
08:25:20 -!- evalj has joined.
08:51:49 -!- evalj has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
09:07:12 -!- MindlessDrone has joined.
09:12:58 <myname> 10:05:55 <jj2baile> Sweet, can't used @ as a function name in haskell, but I can use ＠! Thanks.
09:13:02 <myname> i don't even
09:29:05 <ion> hah
09:39:11 <mroman_> unicode to the rescue
09:47:16 -!- Taneb has joined.
10:05:20 <lexande> b_jonas: there are no trashcans in british train stations, except in rare cases in the form of clear plastic bags hanging freely (in the hopes that a bomb inside one would be visible, i guess)
10:05:44 <lexande> and yet there is not much litter because britain
10:06:31 <Taneb> lexande, there are up north
10:06:46 <lexande> really? i never saw one
10:06:50 <Taneb> I know Hexham and Newcastle both have bins
10:06:53 <Taneb> Because I've used them
10:06:56 <Taneb> (in the station)
10:07:00 <lexande> huh, okay
10:07:11 <lexande> also in new york the MTA can't manage to empty all the trash cans fast enough
10:07:15 <lexande> so they overflow
10:07:18 <Taneb> Can't remember any in York but I've never had to wait in York
10:07:22 <lexande> so they've removed the trashcans from some stations
10:08:11 <lexande> so that people will take their trash outside rather than putting it in an overflowing bin
10:08:37 <lexande> which seems like a parody of government-agency disfunction
10:09:00 <lexande> but then, London once stored bags full of rubbish in giant piles in Leicester Square
10:09:42 <lexande> s/dis/dys/;
10:10:10 <lexande> s/government-agency/organisational/;
10:30:42 -!- muskrat has quit (Quit: Leaving).
10:38:04 -!- CADD has quit (Quit: leaving).
11:09:16 <fizzie> @ask kmc Do people often call you "Kegs"?
11:09:16 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
11:09:45 <fizzie> (I think I may have asked about that before.)
11:10:38 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
11:19:18 <lexande> fizzie: i have spent a lot of time around Keegan and have never ever heard anyone call him Kegs.
11:35:59 <Taneb> fizzie, you made fungot, right?
11:35:59 <fungot> Taneb: this was acctully a computer could land by itself-with no one thinks the black guy, the crew.
11:36:18 <Taneb> Can you give me some tips for markov-chain text generation
11:37:43 <FireFly> I think fungot's trying to say they created themself
11:37:43 <fungot> FireFly: nesun dorma in female roles only, i could show you a stack of proof from a sensationalist american tv-shows are not always right' mode.
12:04:32 -!- oerjan has joined.
12:06:09 -!- yorick has joined.
12:08:08 <oerjan> @messages-lewd
12:08:08 <lambdabot> You don't have any messages
12:08:27 <oerjan> oh hm
12:09:01 <fizzie> Taneb: Well, I mean, fungot's just a ngram model, generating text from one is borderline trivial.
12:09:01 <fungot> fizzie: you're not exactly gonna be relased....what a shame that it was mostly a maze involving a red line as the tail hit the trees or something?
12:09:29 <oerjan> fungot: how do you feel about fizzie insulting you
12:09:30 <fungot> oerjan: wow like 10 mins ago i saw the poseidon go down quick enough. i think most can remeber their first flight" for " habsheim airbus crash" under search and watch the video above, it was
12:09:41 <Taneb> fizzie, I'm having trouble dealing with punctuation
12:09:53 <oerjan> i think he may not have noticed.
12:10:38 <fizzie> Taneb: I just preprocess that stuff. The tokens in the model for (foo.) look like POPAREN foo PDOT PCPAREN.
12:11:01 <fizzie> Taneb: (The Perl version keeps a stack of paired punctuation to ensure it matches, but that's not in the Funge version.)
12:11:29 <oerjan> yeah stacks are too hard in funge
12:11:58 <fizzie> oerjan: You're free to submit a patch, you know.
12:12:27 <fizzie> ^style irc
12:12:27 <fungot> Selected style: irc (IRC logs of freenode/#esoteric, freenode/#scheme and ircnet/#douglasadams)
12:12:31 <fizzie> (Enough of the YouTubes.)
12:27:48 <Slereah> Welp
12:27:56 <Slereah> I did some little assembly things with the registers
12:28:03 <Slereah> Now let's try to fuck around with the RAM a bit
12:28:06 <Slereah> Addresses and shit
12:29:25 <mroman_> What the hell are you doing?
12:36:14 <Slereah> Learning my man
12:37:59 <oerjan> shachaf: fixed hth
12:40:40 <oerjan> @tell shachaf whoever made the redirect wiped out some stuff. also i don't see how it was infinite.
12:40:40 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
12:41:21 <oerjan> @tell shachaf you might learn to read wikipedia history diffs hth
12:41:21 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
12:47:07 -!- MindlessDrone has quit (Quit: MindlessDrone).
12:56:53 -!- Tod-Autojoined has joined.
12:57:13 -!- TodPunk has quit (Read error: No route to host).
12:57:25 <oerjan> > let x @! y = var $x++': '++y in "myname" @! "yes, it's true" 12:57:26 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:24: parse error on input :' 12:57:29 <oerjan> wat 12:57:38 <oerjan> > let x @! y = var$ x++": "++y in "myname" @! "yes, it's true"
12:57:39 <lambdabot> myname: yes, it's true
12:58:43 <myname> what is var for?
12:58:47 <oerjan> myndzi: myname: you two have to battle it out in a nick deathmatch.
12:59:07 <myname> which two?
12:59:10 <myname> ah
12:59:12 <myname> no
12:59:17 <oerjan> myname: removing quotes. technically it's some symbol representation thing.
12:59:32 <oerjan> :t var
12:59:33 <lambdabot> String -> Expr
12:59:45 <oerjan> oh it's just Expr
13:00:04 <myname> oerjan: just make your client complete to the right one
13:01:01 <oerjan> > scanl1 (+) . map var $cycle ["myname","myndzi"] 13:01:02 <lambdabot> [myname,myname + myndzi,myname + myndzi + myname,myname + myndzi + myname +... 13:01:31 <oerjan> myname: it doesn't do so until the right one speaks 13:03:58 <oerjan> > fix (var "myname" +) 13:03:59 <lambdabot> myname + (myname + (myname + (myname + (myname + (myname + (myname + (mynam... 13:04:06 <oerjan> nicely lazy 13:04:13 -!- Sorella has joined. 13:08:28 -!- carado has joined. 13:23:27 -!- nooodl has joined. 13:30:19 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 13:46:23 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 13:53:05 -!- evalj has joined. 14:04:57 -!- sebbu has joined. 14:05:37 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host). 14:05:37 -!- sebbu has joined. 14:22:20 <FreeFull> > expr "meow" 14:22:21 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type Debug.SimpleReflect.Expr.Expr' 14:22:21 <lambdabot> w... 14:25:36 <fizzie> Bah. The (DS3) gamepad has stopped working in Windows again, after the 8.1 upgrade. 14:25:53 -!- impomatic has joined. 14:46:10 -!- tertu has joined. 15:00:20 -!- Koen_ has joined. 15:01:07 <Koen_> hello 15:09:03 -!- MindlessDrone has joined. 15:14:02 -!- ter2 has joined. 15:14:52 -!- tertu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 15:15:16 -!- Koen_ has quit (Quit: Koen_). 15:17:52 -!- MindlessDrone has quit (Quit: MindlessDrone). 15:35:16 -!- mrhmouse has joined. 15:42:03 -!- MindlessDrone has joined. 15:58:02 -!- nooodl_ has joined. 16:01:23 -!- nooodl has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 16:36:54 -!- Jesin has quit (Quit: Leaving). 16:44:09 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving). 16:59:09 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined. 17:02:07 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 17:17:28 -!- MindlessDrone has quit (Quit: MindlessDrone). 17:17:48 -!- MindlessDrone has joined. 17:35:31 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 17:35:57 -!- sebbu has joined. 17:36:40 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host). 17:36:40 -!- sebbu has joined. 17:41:49 -!- muskrat has joined. 17:41:53 -!- muskrat has left. 18:00:49 -!- ais523 has joined. 18:03:19 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 18:05:55 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 18:09:49 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 18:16:14 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 18:16:34 -!- sebbu has joined. 18:17:17 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host). 18:17:17 -!- sebbu has joined. 18:24:49 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 18:55:21 <shachaf> oerjan: what about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnstone_(surname) though 19:00:05 <kmc> fizzie: no, maybe a few people in high school....... why 19:01:57 -!- oerjan has joined. 19:02:59 <oerjan> :t expr 19:03:00 <lambdabot> Expr -> Expr 19:03:49 <oerjan> FreeFull: expr is like a type restriction of id, to use when the usual Expr functions are so polymorphic that you get error messages like these: 19:03:53 <oerjan> > f x 19:03:54 <lambdabot> No instance for (Debug.SimpleReflect.Expr.FromExpr a0) 19:03:54 <lambdabot> arising from a us... 19:03:59 <oerjan> > expr$ f x
19:04:00 <lambdabot> f x
19:05:01 <oerjan> > fix f
19:05:03 <lambdabot> No instance for (Debug.SimpleReflect.Expr.FromExpr a0)
19:05:03 <lambdabot> arising from a us...
19:05:09 <oerjan> > fix (expr . f)
19:05:09 <lambdabot> f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (...
19:05:41 <oerjan> @tell FreeFull see logs.
19:05:41 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
19:07:13 <oerjan> > f (expr . g . expr) x :: Expr
19:07:14 <lambdabot> No instance for (Data.Typeable.Internal.Typeable
19:07:14 <lambdabot> Debug....
19:07:19 <oerjan> hm wat
19:07:35 <oerjan> i guess that might be a problem.
19:09:29 <oerjan> > f sin x
19:09:30 <lambdabot> No instance for (Debug.SimpleReflect.Expr.FromExpr a0)
19:09:31 <lambdabot> arising from a us...
19:09:38 <oerjan> > f sin x :: Expr
19:09:39 <lambdabot> f <Double -> Double> x
19:09:55 <oerjan> fancy
19:10:03 <oerjan> > expr . g . expr
19:10:04 <lambdabot> No instance for (Data.Typeable.Internal.Typeable
19:10:04 <lambdabot> Debug....
19:10:32 <oerjan> > g :: Expr -> Expr
19:10:33 <lambdabot> No instance for (Data.Typeable.Internal.Typeable
19:10:34 <lambdabot> Debug....
19:10:44 <oerjan> oh wait it's Expr itself which isn't Typeable
19:10:54 <oerjan> @let derive Typeable Expr
19:10:55 <lambdabot> Parse failed: TemplateHaskell is not enabled
19:11:00 <oerjan> :(
19:11:17 <oerjan> hm not sure that's even correct syntax
19:11:51 -!- Bike has joined.
19:13:22 <oerjan> oh well i guess it couldn't print "f g x" even if it did.
19:15:23 <b_jonas> > var "f g x" {- it can print anything -}
19:15:24 <lambdabot> f g x
19:15:48 <FireFly> > fix var
19:15:49 <lambdabot> Couldn't match type Debug.SimpleReflect.Expr.Expr'
19:15:49 <lambdabot> with [G...
19:15:56 <FireFly> @ty var
19:15:57 <lambdabot> String -> Expr
19:16:09 <b_jonas> > fix fix
19:16:10 <lambdabot> Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: a0 = a0 -> a0
19:16:10 <lambdabot> Expected t...
19:17:33 <oerjan> > fix (show . (:[]) . var)
19:17:34 <lambdabot> "[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[...
19:17:54 <FireFly> Oh, you generated a lisp program
19:18:13 <FireFly> Unfortunately it's infinitely deep
19:18:22 <oerjan> > fix (show . flip (,) undefined . var) -- more lispy
19:18:23 <lambdabot> "((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((...
19:19:43 <quintopia> blah!
19:19:43 <b_jonas> > var(repeat'(')
19:19:44 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:14: parse error on input )'
19:19:53 <b_jonas> > var(cycle "(")
19:19:53 <lambdabot> (((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((...
19:20:15 <oerjan> that looks buggy. also i have a feeling i've seen that bug before.
19:20:21 <quintopia> but
19:20:25 <quintopia> it doesn't start with a "
19:20:27 <quintopia> and it's shorter
19:20:30 <oerjan> oh wait
19:20:30 <quintopia> so b_jonas wins
19:20:40 <oerjan> > var(repeat '(')
19:20:41 <lambdabot> (((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((...
19:20:49 <oerjan> ' is a legal identifier character
19:22:17 <oerjan> > var$cycle"(" 19:22:17 <lambdabot> (((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((... 19:22:24 <oerjan> as long as we're golfing 19:23:05 * quintopia flogs oerjan 19:25:05 <fizzie> kmc: Oh, no reason. 19:25:39 <ais523> > cb 19:25:40 <lambdabot> (((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((... 19:25:46 <oerjan> :t cb 19:25:47 <lambdabot> Expr 19:26:27 <fizzie> Quick, generate lots of ]s or )s or the channel will capsize due to unbalanced parens. 19:26:45 <oerjan> ^ul ((])S:^):^ 19:26:46 <fungot> ]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]] ...too much output! 19:26:53 <fizzie> Phew. 19:27:12 <b_jonas> ] 999$')'
19:27:13 <evalj> b_jonas: ))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))...
19:27:23 <b_jonas> oerjan: what's that?
19:27:45 <ais523> b_jonas: oerjan's code was Underload, http://esolangs.org/wiki/Underload
19:27:59 <oerjan> did jconn get renamed?
19:28:18 <b_jonas> oerjan: it's a different instance
19:28:29 <b_jonas> oerjan: we've had four or five different instances of the same bot
19:28:43 <oerjan> ) 999$')' 19:28:44 <jconn> oerjan: ))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))... 19:28:44 <b_jonas> evalj is mine, but I only run it occasionally 19:28:57 <b_jonas> jconn is fftw's instance, he runs it all the time 19:29:00 <ais523> how many bots do we have that can do Underload? 19:29:01 <ais523> fungot, obviously 19:29:01 <fungot> ais523: google will find plenty :) iz 3. 19:29:09 <ais523> thutubot can but it's not online atm (nor is it normally) 19:29:10 <fizzie> Three, apparently. 19:29:13 <ais523> can any of the non-eso bots do it? 19:29:14 <oerjan> !underload (hi)S 19:29:16 <EgoBot> hi 19:29:22 <ais523> ah right 19:29:23 <b_jonas> we used to have two or three instances of buubot at some time too 19:29:28 <b_jonas> now I think we only have one active 19:29:30 <oerjan> interp underload (hi)S 19:29:34 <HackEgo> hi 19:30:41 <ais523> also, esobots tend to pick Underload and brainfuck to impl 19:30:44 <ais523> presumably because they're easy 19:31:03 <ais523> although thutubot doesn't do brainfuck because Thutu sucks at arithmetic 19:31:05 <b_jonas> does any of them run dc? 19:31:41 <oerjan> which dc 19:31:42 <HackEgo> ​/usr/bin/dc 19:32:12 <oerjan> if i remembered how dc worked i'd check EgoBot. 19:32:16 <b_jonas> ah right, a universal bot 19:32:38 <b_jonas> and it uses backtick as the invocation character too, which is funny 19:32:43 <b_jonas> because I chose backtick for termbot 19:33:30 <oerjan> <shachaf> oerjan: what about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnstone_(surname) though <-- argh 19:35:00 <b_jonas> dc -e[[)]ndx]dx 19:35:01 <HackEgo> ​))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))) 19:35:47 <fizzie> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20131124-reddit.png <- that was new for me. (Not that I diddit much.) 19:36:37 -!- zzo38 has joined. 19:37:11 <b_jonas> dc -e[93andx]dx 19:37:12 <HackEgo> ​]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]] 19:37:29 <fizzie> run echo '1 2 3 4 5' | dc - <(echo '0ss[q]sq[z1=qrls+ssdx]dxlsp') # easiest way to sum numbers in stdin? 19:37:30 <HackEgo> 15 19:37:47 <b_jonas> this underload looks scary 19:38:08 <ais523> b_jonas: it's probably my greatest esolanging accomplishment 19:38:32 <ais523> because it is actually new and different and yet useful 19:39:25 <b_jonas> ais523: can underload be translated to dc by some simple replacements, like replacing parens to square brackets etc? 19:39:34 <ais523> quite possibly 19:39:43 <b_jonas> or does this stack turned to program not allow that? I don't really understand underload 19:39:50 <ais523> concatenative languages are known to be quite easy to interconvert between 19:39:57 <ais523> although it won't be exactly the same due to the S command 19:40:12 <b_jonas> yeah 19:40:13 <ais523> the stack->program translation is really vital, though, it's the only way to be able to do control flow 19:40:29 <b_jonas> there's a dc obfu that takes the length of strings that are also used as code 19:40:43 <b_jonas> so if you try to replace parts of code it falls apart because the lengths are wrong 19:40:53 <b_jonas> it's a brilliant method 19:41:17 <ais523> now I'm wondering why anyone would ever want to obfuscate dc code 19:41:29 <oerjan> shachaf: made it a disambiguation page instead. 19:41:37 <ais523> anyway, I consider S a design mistake in Underload, but given that I hardly ever work on its successor Underlambda… 19:41:41 <b_jonas> ais523: you're asking that on #esoteric ? you can't be serious 19:42:26 <ais523> b_jonas: I was; it's like asking "why would anyone ever think of writing a standard library for BackFlip" 19:42:34 <oerjan> fizzie: reddit not loading happens all the time. 19:42:42 <b_jonas> mind you, I shouldn't call it a brilliant idea 19:42:46 <ais523> it's the sort of thing that just didn't occur to me that it might be a useful operation, nor even do just for the hell of it 19:43:02 <kmc> fizzie: nice dc, also what? 19:43:04 <b_jonas> given that that perl obfu I showed you yesterday uses exactly this trick: it re-uses its code as data so you can't change its code 19:43:23 <b_jonas> perl -eeval for'for$=(2..27){$*=0;$*=($**$=+ord)%127,for/./gs;print+chr$*}'."\n#ig\\tq\24^-/v\c^l,\23\$%\3\ta2\tk\b\c\)\x18 -- ambrus"
19:43:25 <HackEgo> ​$* is no longer supported at (eval 1) line 1. \ Just another Perl hacker, 19:43:37 <kmc> i've never written code for dc, is it actually usually like '0ss[q]sq[z1=qrls+ssdx]dxlsp' ? 19:43:53 <b_jonas> perl -eeval for"for\$^(2..27){\$==0;\$==(\$=*\$^+ord)%127,for/./gs;print+chr\$=}\n#P*h!9= Nn[\c\9\0*.:\eUt\17%j{dY\31 -- ambrus" 19:43:54 <ais523> obfuscating Perl makes sense, both because people have competitions in it, and because you might want to stop people reading your Perl source and yet have the compiler understand it 19:43:55 <HackEgo> Just another Perl hacker, 19:43:56 <ais523> kmc: yeah, it always looks like that 19:44:00 <zzo38> I sometimes use dc. 19:44:00 <b_jonas> kmc: yes 19:44:11 <b_jonas> I have some dc code somewhere 19:44:26 <ais523> basically because dc was originally intended for arithmetic, which it devotes most of its readability to 19:44:43 <ais523> and everything else gets pushed into a few keywords which are single consonants 19:44:47 <b_jonas> ais523: also it was written back when memory was really expensive 19:44:50 <ais523> and probably vowels too, but nobody uses those 19:44:52 <FireFly> dc looks almost as obfuscated as TECO 19:44:57 <b_jonas> so the original dc had to be implemented in a very tight space 19:45:05 <b_jonas> obviously it's gained a few more primitives since, 19:45:10 <b_jonas> but the basics haven't changed 19:45:13 <kmc> "back when memory was really expensive, and probably vowels too" 19:45:33 <FireFly> kmc: but nobody uses those 19:46:02 <kmc> are there any esolangs with Hangul syntax? actually I asked this before and the answer is "yes" but there should be more because, Hangul owns 19:46:03 <zzo38> Actually I think dc is OK 19:46:26 <b_jonas> dc -e1dp[pdsd+ldrlxx]dsxx 19:46:27 <HackEgo> 1 \ 1 \ 2 \ 3 \ 5 \ 8 \ 13 \ 21 \ 34 \ 55 \ 89 \ 144 \ 233 \ 377 \ 610 \ 987 \ 1597 \ 2584 \ 4181 \ 6765 \ 10946 \ 17711 \ 28657 \ 46368 \ 75025 \ 121393 \ 196418 \ 317811 \ 514229 \ 832040 \ 1346269 \ 2178309 \ 3524578 \ 5702887 \ 9227465 \ 14930352 \ 24157817 \ 39088169 \ 63245986 \ 102334155 \ 165580141 \ 267914296 \ 433494437 \ 701408733 \ 1134 19:46:37 <fizzie> kmc: It doesn't always look quite like that if you're just using it interactively to do some arithmetic. 19:46:37 <b_jonas> dc -e1d[prdk+KdZ5\>x]dsxx 19:46:39 <HackEgo> dc: dc: dc: dc: dc: dc: dc: dc: dc: dc: dc: dc: dc: dc: dc: 1 \ '\' (0134) unimplemented \ 1 \ '\' (0134) unimplemented \ 2 \ '\' (0134) unimplemented \ 3 \ '\' (0134) unimplemented \ 5 \ '\' (0134) unimplemented \ 8 \ '\' (0134) unimplemented \ 13 \ '\' (0134) unimplemented \ 21 \ '\' (0134) unimplemented \ 34 \ '\' (0134) unimplemented \ 55 \ '\' 19:46:39 <kmc> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Aheui 19:46:46 <b_jonas> what? 19:46:53 <b_jonas> dc -e1d[prdk+KdZ5>x]dsxx 19:46:54 <HackEgo> 1 \ 1 \ 2 \ 3 \ 5 \ 8 \ 13 \ 21 \ 34 \ 55 \ 89 \ 144 \ 233 \ 377 \ 610 \ 987 \ 1597 \ 2584 \ 4181 \ 6765 19:47:21 <Bike> dc -e'4 5*p' 19:47:22 <HackEgo> dc: ''' (047) unimplemented \ 20 \ dc: ''' (047) unimplemented 19:47:26 <Bike> dc -e4 5*p 19:47:27 <b_jonas> dc -e1d[pdk+Krlxx]dsxx 19:47:28 <HackEgo> 20 19:47:29 <HackEgo> 1 \ 2 \ 3 \ 5 \ 8 \ 13 \ 21 \ 34 \ 55 \ 89 \ 144 \ 233 \ 377 \ 610 \ 987 \ 1597 \ 2584 \ 4181 \ 6765 \ 10946 \ 17711 \ 28657 \ 46368 \ 75025 \ 121393 \ 196418 \ 317811 \ 514229 \ 832040 \ 1346269 \ 2178309 \ 3524578 \ 5702887 \ 9227465 \ 14930352 \ 24157817 \ 39088169 \ 63245986 \ 102334155 \ 165580141 \ 267914296 \ 433494437 \ 701408733 \ 11349031 19:47:40 <Bike> no idea about this bracket stuff 19:47:43 <Bike> or any of the other stuff 19:47:52 <Bike> stuff in general, tbh 19:48:03 <fizzie> Brackets are like Underload parens hth 19:48:27 <zzo38> In fact the TeXnicard programming language is based on dc and Underload (well, one of its embedded programming languages anyways; there is another used for graphics, and another used for booster packs and deck construction, etc) 19:48:30 <ais523> pretty much all concatenative languages have something equivalent to Underload parens, unless you're intentionally trying to make one that doesn't 19:48:32 <fizzie> And x is like Underload ! hth^2 19:48:37 <ais523> (such as dei, which I don't think is on the wiki) 19:48:56 <fizzie> Er, I mean ^. 19:49:08 <fizzie> (I don't know how I got that wrong, brain fart.) 19:49:12 <b_jonas> zzo38: sounds scary 19:49:12 <FireFly> brackets are for quotation I suppose? 19:49:19 <FireFly> I should learn dc.. 19:49:30 <b_jonas> FireFly: yes 19:49:53 <Bike> huh. meta 19:50:46 <ais523> dc has many esolang-like properties 19:51:35 <zzo38> FireFly: Brackets introduce strings, which are used for code blocks too. 19:51:48 <Bike> so "e1d[prdk+KdZ5>x]dsxx" pushes 1,1,"prdk+KdZ5>x" to the stack, puts "prdk+KdZ5>x" in the "x" register, and then pops "prdk+KdZ5>x" from the stack and executes it? 19:51:56 <Bike> er, scratch the initial e 19:52:29 <kmc> hi Bike 19:52:32 <Bike> himc. 19:52:39 <Bike> sup 19:52:45 <kmc> not much 19:52:49 <kmc> waiting at LAX for my flight home to SF 19:53:41 <zzo38> Bike: Yes, that would do 19:53:42 <b_jonas> Bike: some explanation in http://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=627011 19:53:45 <b_jonas> and yes 19:53:53 <fizzie> dc -e[d91aPP93aP[dx]P]dx 19:53:55 <HackEgo> ​[d91aPP93aP[dx]P]dx 19:53:56 <fizzie> interp underload (:aS(:^)S):^ 19:53:58 <HackEgo> ​(:aS(:^)S):^ 19:54:19 <Bike> hm... but then p should pop 1 from the stack and print it, leaving the stack as just a 1, so what's r do? 19:54:23 <kmc> maybe i should actually learn the korean language instead of just obsessing over how cool the alphabet is 19:54:34 <fizzie> It's not quite as clean as the Underload version because there's no equivalent of "a". 19:55:23 <b_jonas> Bike: swaps the other 1 with the long string 19:55:42 <Bike> but i thought x popped the string to execute it 19:55:49 <b_jonas> yes, but it got duplicated by d 19:55:56 <b_jonas> hmm wait 19:55:59 <Bike> but s popped it 19:56:02 <b_jonas> oh, wait 19:56:05 <b_jonas> p doesn't pop 19:56:09 <b_jonas> it prints but doesn't pop 19:56:13 <Bike> oh. 19:56:16 <Bike> ok. 19:56:57 <b_jonas> ais523: this underload is awesome 19:57:08 <ais523> thanks 19:57:25 <Bike> k sets the precision... i thought dc used bignums 19:57:46 <fizzie> I love this bit of the dc man page, regarding P on a number: "Assuming that (UCHAR_MAX+1) is 256 (as it is on most machines with 8-bit bytes), the sequence KSK0k1/_1Ss [ls*]Sxd0>x [256~Ssd0<x]dsxxsx[q]Sq[Lsd0>qaPlxx] dsxxsx0sqLqsxLxLK+k could also accomplish this function." 19:57:48 <zzo38> It does use bignums, although some operations still need the precision 19:57:52 <b_jonas> Bike: here we use the precision as just a register 19:57:54 <fizzie> They're not shy about what it looks like. 19:57:57 -!- nooodl_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 19:58:00 <Bike> oh. 19:58:01 <Bike> uh, why. 19:58:02 <b_jonas> Bike: we don't use any ops that precision changes 19:58:11 <b_jonas> it's just that k is shorter than saving to a register 19:58:16 <b_jonas> in this case 19:58:17 <Bike> blah. 19:58:21 -!- nooodl_ has joined. 19:58:25 <b_jonas> this was a golf attempt 19:58:43 <zzo38> Yes, I think I have done that too for golf attempt 19:58:46 <b_jonas> you can see the history here: http://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=490532 19:58:59 <zzo38> This is dc program implementing the XKCD variation of Deadfish: [p]1:z[d*]2:z[1+]3:z[1-]4:z[0sB]dsAx[lB0>AlB256=A0d?lBz;zxsBclCx]dsCx 19:59:24 <zzo38> Someone else implemented the ordinary Deadfish however that one has some problem dealing with the "s" command properly. 19:59:53 <b_jonas> more variants at http://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=626801 19:59:56 <Bike> "f : R -> R is a continuous function with the property that for any fixed real number x, f(nx) -> 0 as n -> \infty. Show that f(x) -> 0 as x -> \infty." i think i'm a failure 20:00:27 <Bike> i can't tell if they mean natural n 20:00:39 <ais523> they must do, otherwise you just choose 1 as your fixed x 20:01:03 <Bike> oh, yeah, ok. 20:01:07 <ais523> and it's not an interesting question 20:01:24 <Bike> a blog post linked about it specifies naturals too so there we go 20:01:46 <Bike> i came up with a discontinuous counterexample and that's about it, go me 20:01:52 <ais523> do you want me to give away the solution? I think I've got it 20:02:06 <ais523> ah, hmm, no :( 20:02:23 <Bike> well i already have "easy consequence of baire's category theorem" as a solution but i don't really know that theory 20:02:26 <Bike> theorem 20:04:32 <b_jonas> underlang is both awesome and scary 20:04:45 <b_jonas> btw, does anyone happen to have a working running copy of wikiplia? 20:06:25 * oerjan swats b_jonas for misspelling underload -----### 20:07:06 <shachaf> oerjan: might want to deal with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Johnston 20:07:37 <shachaf> thx 20:08:00 <oerjan> shachaf: um no i didn't change the others so why change that. 20:08:09 <b_jonas> sorry 20:08:10 -!- Sprocklem has joined. 20:08:10 <b_jonas> underload 20:08:44 <FireFly> dc 448378203247P 20:08:45 <HackEgo> dc: Could not open file 448378203247P 20:08:47 <oerjan> there isn't a really good article for that peter johnstone, the original was so minimal it got changed to a redirect to the list of governors. 20:08:51 <FireFly> dc -e448378203247P 20:08:52 <HackEgo> hello 20:09:04 <FireFly> hm 20:09:58 <shachaf> oerjan: well that one is already a combined disambiguation page for johnston and johnstone 20:10:14 <oerjan> oh hm that is true 20:10:20 <oerjan> argh 20:10:37 <oerjan> can i ban shachaf until he starts doing his wikipedia editing himself 20:10:39 <b_jonas> FireFly: hmm, that's a good idea 20:10:56 <b_jonas> something like the mod 127 polynomial obfu could possibly be translated to dc 20:10:58 <shachaf> oerjan: i need the experts to think of all the edge cases for me 20:11:01 <shachaf> otherwise i might miss something 20:11:03 <b_jonas> I have it in perl and lua so far 20:11:33 <oerjan> shachaf: but you keep giving me extra work because you keep finding new edge cases! 20:11:58 <FireFly> b_jonas: oh, mind showing the lua version? 20:12:03 <b_jonas> FireFly: let me find it 20:12:27 <FireFly> but yeah, the P command seems like a useful one to (ab)use 20:12:42 <b_jonas> FireFly: you don't need P, you can use a 20:13:00 <FireFly> oh 20:13:05 <FireFly> I haven't gotten that far in the manpage yet 20:13:30 <b_jonas> FireFly: http://dpaste.com/1481708/ 20:13:57 <oerjan> shachaf: anyway, i fixed the problem where someone who seeks for the mathematician might end up on a dead end with no way to him, which was the main problem afaiac. 20:14:07 <b_jonas> that one also puts most of the code inside the string used for data, so you can't change the code, but for some silly reason my name is not in that string so you can change that 20:14:53 <shachaf> oerjan: that's true 20:14:59 <shachaf> (that was my original problem) 20:18:55 <b_jonas> hmm, maybe I should try to write such a version of the GF(128) japh too 20:19:09 <b_jonas> one where you can't just change the code that is 20:19:18 <b_jonas> nah, no 20:19:27 <b_jonas> that would be against its purpose 20:19:57 <b_jonas> the point of my GF(128) obfu is to show off how easy it is to do calculations over GF(128) in perl 20:20:09 <b_jonas> so the code should be changeable 20:22:02 <FireFly> Hm, so basically the idea is to treat the bytes in the string as coefficients of a polynomial, and compute that polynomial for x ∈ [2,26] (or however long a string you want to output) 20:22:02 <b_jonas> easy not only in that the code is short, but that it does the computation vectorized working with all the coefficients at the same time 20:22:08 <b_jonas> there's no explicit loops on the coefficients 20:22:12 <b_jonas> FireFly: yes 20:22:52 <FireFly> Btw, you could change that ; in the string to a space for (slightly) more obscure code, I'm pretty sure 20:23:19 <b_jonas> what semicolon in which code? 20:23:27 <FireFly> Or rather, less-expected-to-work code for someone not used to Lua's grammar 20:23:32 <b_jonas> ah 20:23:34 <b_jonas> in lua 20:23:46 <b_jonas> yeah... you can often omit semicolons in lua 20:23:49 <b_jonas> that wierds me out 20:23:55 <FireFly> Lua doesn't require any particular delimiter between statements 20:24:03 <b_jonas> usually yes 20:24:16 <b_jonas> the semicolon is required only when it would be ambiguous otherwise 20:24:21 <FireFly> Right 20:24:38 <b_jonas> so which semicolon out of the three? 20:25:05 <FireFly> Er 20:25:12 <FireFly> Actually, I think all three 20:25:14 <b_jonas> in the string... which out of two 20:25:23 <FireFly> I don't think any of them cause any ambiguity 20:25:32 <b_jonas> yeah 20:25:34 <oerjan> ais523: i have a hunch lucasieks may be trying to make the pages fit within his browser width. 20:25:51 <FireFly> for the last one you could even remove it (the string and the identifier are separate tokens anyway) 20:26:00 <b_jonas> well, 20:26:18 <FireFly> which lua 20:26:19 <HackEgo> ​/hackenv/bin/lua 20:26:23 <FireFly> oh neat 20:26:29 <b_jonas> the second semicolon is after an end, which makes it less surprising you can omit it (for me as a perler) 20:26:46 <oerjan> i recall previously having a bug where i couldn't scroll properly rightwards when wikitables got too wide, although that seems to have been fixed for me now. maybe he still has that problem. 20:26:59 <b_jonas> the third one uyou could omit but you'd still need the newline or it would be too wide 20:27:01 <ais523> oerjan: I had a hunch that might be it too, but his solutions are really destructive 20:27:07 <ais523> one of them put a newline in the middle of a keyword… 20:27:10 <FireFly> Btw, newlines in Lua has no special meaning either (i.e., newlines == spaces as far as the lexer is concerned) 20:27:20 <oerjan> (as in, my browser for some reason didn't detect that it needed a scrollbar when the reason was a wide wikitable) 20:27:21 <b_jonas> FireFly: sure 20:27:31 <b_jonas> and that part I like 20:27:42 <b_jonas> I like that feature in perl and C too where it's mostly true about newlines 20:27:58 <b_jonas> (and some other languages) 20:28:56 <ais523> b_jonas: Algol 60 completely ignores whitespace 20:29:10 <FireFly> What, even for separating tokens? 20:29:11 <b_jonas> ais523: some basics and some fortrans do as well 20:29:14 <ais523> except that it's left undefined what the representation of a keyword is, and some compilers disallow whitespace inside keywords 20:29:14 <zzo38> Yes, I like that feature of how C and so on treats line breaks (except in C++ comments and preprocessor directives) 20:29:15 <ais523> FireFly: yes 20:29:32 <b_jonas> in so much that you can't write X OR Y in some basics because X OR is a token 20:29:32 <ais523> all compliant Algol 60 implementations allow whitespace inside variable names, though 20:29:39 <FireFly> So the substring "for" is always treated as a separate token, say, even if it appears in "aforb" or something? 20:29:48 <b_jonas> FireFly: in some basics, yes 20:29:54 <ais523> FireFly: in Algol 60, it depends on the impl 20:30:08 <ais523> the impl I have requires keywords to have no internal spaces but is insensitive to spaces around them 20:30:19 <ais523> if you wand an identifier name aforb, you have to write it as af orb, for instance 20:30:20 <b_jonas> FireFly: mind you, those basics also had 2 characters significant length of variable names, 3 significant of keywords, and small memory 20:30:37 <zzo38> OASYS does the same and it doesn't even have semicolons or whatever to separate statements. 20:30:58 <FireFly> ais523: that is.. weird. 20:31:39 -!- Taneb has joined. 20:31:40 <ais523> Algol 68 is whitespace-sensitive, I think, but it still allows whitespace inside identifiers 20:31:53 <Taneb> Hi 20:32:37 <b_jonas> but that's because algol/fortran was invented in the days of punch cards 20:33:22 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 20:40:48 <b_jonas> I only ever made my own esolang once, and wrote only one program in it, and that one program was buggy. 20:41:00 <b_jonas> I know now how I could fix that program, but have lost interest in it. 20:41:13 -!- Oj742 has joined. 20:41:17 <b_jonas> I won't revive that esolang, but might try something with similar design later. 20:46:08 <b_jonas> hmm... I wonder if it's possible to translate http://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=989716 (arithmetic in Zeckendorf representation) to sed 20:46:20 <b_jonas> it's all rewrite rules, so it's probably representable in sed 20:46:45 <b_jonas> of course, there's already a famous calculator (using decimal) in sed, so it might not be worth 20:46:50 <ais523> b_jonas: well, Thue is Turing-complete… 20:47:45 <b_jonas> ais523: sure, 20:48:04 <ais523> is it BF-complete, btw? 20:48:24 <b_jonas> but I wonder if zeckendorf addition in particualr can be translated in a short and simple way 20:48:32 <b_jonas> and I think it can 20:48:40 <b_jonas> to sed that is 20:49:06 <oerjan> ais523: you cannot input an arbitrary string and be sure it doesn't mess up your program. 20:49:33 <oerjan> because it can always be identical to something you are using for internal data 20:49:53 <b_jonas> oerjan: you can almost do it in sed 20:50:08 <b_jonas> maybe you can completely do it 20:50:14 <b_jonas> yeah, I think you can 20:50:20 <ais523> oerjan: yeah, that's what I was wondering about 20:50:35 <ais523> perhaps you could do something clever involving the ends of the string, but probably not 20:50:36 <b_jonas> you can save the current buffer, read a string, do some replacements in it to make it safe, then load back the holded string 20:50:39 <oerjan> sed can detect end of string while thue cannot; i think this is the essential difference to some things. 20:50:50 <oerjan> *beginning and/or end 20:52:12 <oerjan> well regexes are much more powerful in other ways too. 20:53:28 <b_jonas> well, sed is also more convenient 20:53:47 <oerjan> ais523: e.g. see the discussion on http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:Thue#Challenging_Problem 20:53:50 <b_jonas> because it has match wildcards and can copy parts of the matched string to the replacement 20:54:01 <b_jonas> (with the limitation that only the first nine parenthesis can be copied) 20:54:11 <b_jonas> s/parenthesis/parenthesis group/ 20:54:30 <ais523> oerjan: right 21:11:09 <FireFly> Hm, I wonder why dc's ? executes the input rather than pushing it to the stack... 21:11:39 <FireFly> the latter seems like it'd be more useful, and executing it is as easy as applying x to it anyway 21:11:44 <ais523> because it's designed for interactive use, not as a programming language 21:12:47 -!- muskrat has joined. 21:13:10 <FireFly> fair enough 21:13:28 <FireFly> it foils my code-golfing plans, though 21:16:27 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 21:21:10 <b_jonas> FireFly: what did you want to golf? 21:22:17 <FireFly> Oh, nothing in particular. I just thought dc seemed like it'd be neat for golfing 21:23:37 <b_jonas> I see 21:25:38 -!- muskrat has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 21:27:01 -!- muskrat has joined. 21:27:20 -!- muskrat has left. 21:31:15 -!- impomatic has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 21:32:12 -!- MindlessDrone has quit (Quit: MindlessDrone). 21:35:45 -!- FreeFull has quit. 21:42:17 <elliott> ais523: perhaps a message on [[User talk:Lucasieks]] is warranted 21:42:38 <ais523> elliott: I will if he does that more, I'm too apathetic right now 21:43:11 -!- ais523 has changed nick to ais523\unfoog. 21:46:27 <Vorpal> Hi 21:47:25 -!- FreeFull has joined. 21:50:44 <zzo38> Can you play Yomi cards? I have made up three new decks of Yomi cards. 21:51:24 -!- typeclassy has joined. 21:57:07 <Vorpal> Me? I don't even know what that is 21:58:03 <Vorpal> FireFly, it is. 21:58:29 <Vorpal> FireFly, I found that even if I don't try to golf in it, it ends up looking like an unreadable golfed program anyway 21:58:57 <FireFly> Vorpal: assuming you don't need to input things that aren't numbers or bracket-encompassed strings? 21:59:07 <FireFly> s/input things/read things from input/ 21:59:07 <Vorpal> FireFly, well yea 21:59:18 <fizzie> Steam is advertising a pre-purchase option of "Professional Farmer 2014" to me. 21:59:18 <Vorpal> I mostly used it to perform math from shell scripts 21:59:27 <Vorpal> hah 21:59:36 <fizzie> 20% off! 21:59:52 <fizzie> "Tractors And Farm Machines Get Your Farm Up And Running The PC simulator "Professional Farmer 2014" takes the player to the countryside and gives hobby farmers full control in the comfort of their home." 22:00:24 <Vorpal> I never understood the craze for farming simulators 22:00:36 <Vorpal> Nor truck simulators either. 22:00:46 <fizzie> I guess this is like the ultra-realistic "flight simulator" end of farming simulators. 22:00:52 <fizzie> Where Farmville and such are at the opposite side. 22:00:53 <Vorpal> Heh 22:01:16 <fizzie> "Good Ol’ Times DLC: 7 additional, historical Tractor models for Professional Farmer 2014." 22:01:37 <fizzie> Included in the Collector's Edition, of course. 22:01:45 <Vorpal> Heh 22:01:52 <Vorpal> Anyway, I don 22:02:01 <Vorpal> don't see why you would want to simulate farming 22:02:10 <Bike> big machinery. 22:02:26 <oerjan> now with 15 extra manure options! 22:02:54 <Vorpal> Bike, yes but tractors? Combine harvesters? Really? 22:03:13 <elliott> why would you simulate mining and crafting 22:03:33 <fizzie> oerjan: "Agricultural Simulator 2013"'s "Key Features" include a freely placeable "Dung Tank". 22:03:38 <Vorpal> elliott, alas, minecraft is not much of a simulation. It is way to "gameified" for that. 22:03:54 <Vorpal> And that is for the better I would say 22:04:01 <elliott> alas, it is for the better 22:04:53 <Vorpal> I think I just got z-buffer fighting in a 2D program. That was weird. 22:05:05 <Vorpal> Or something like that 22:05:11 <Vorpal> Very very strange 22:07:28 <fizzie> I suppose the farm thing makes as much sense as the train thing, which I at least can somewhat understand. 22:07:45 <Vorpal> Guess so 22:08:00 <Vorpal> Flight sims and space sims I can see some point in. Especially space sims. 22:08:05 <elliott> fizzie can only understand train simulations for doing logic in them. 22:08:31 <Vorpal> elliott, that was OpenTTD, which is far from a train sim, again way too "gameified". 22:08:38 <fizzie> Vorpal: How about game development simulators? 22:09:03 * Bike the rural guy stands by and stares sidelong at Vorpal. 22:09:04 <Vorpal> fizzie, oh yeah I heard of that, Haven't checked it out though. Somewhat of a management game iirc? 22:09:21 <fizzie> Vorpal: So I've understood. I only know of it because of the piracy thing. 22:09:51 <Vorpal> Eh, not really interested in management games, so meh, couldn't care less. 22:10:34 <fizzie> (The pirated version has a tweak that, after some amount of time, people start to pirate all your games and your company will pretty much unavoidably tank, plus a guilt-trip message.) 22:11:13 <FireFly> Nice 22:13:11 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jamie_Zawinski&diff=582900523&oldid=prev need a source, stat 22:14:25 <Vorpal> What is the bouncing cow screensaver?? 22:14:26 <fizzie> Bike: "man bouncingcow" says "Author: Jamie Zawinski", FWIW. 22:14:39 <fizzie> Vorpal: Part of XScreenSaver. 22:14:48 <Vorpal> Ah, don't have that installed 22:14:54 <Vorpal> I just blank the screen instead 22:15:10 <mrhmouse> Bike is a rural guy? 22:15:15 <Vorpal> never seen the point of screensavers that don't save the screen by turning it off or blacking it out. 22:16:57 <fizzie> Presumably the point is that they're both pretty to look at, and still functional at avoiding burn-in. 22:18:15 <Vorpal> Hm, I guess screensavers make more sense now again when there is OLED? I never heard of burn in with TN or IPS 22:19:59 <Vorpal> There are so many technologies nowdays... TN, IPS, MVA, PLS, PVA... 22:20:31 <Vorpal> It used to be that the only ones you ever heard about were CRT, TN and maybe IPS. 22:20:44 <oerjan> soon they'll run out of TLAs 22:23:02 <Vorpal> oerjan, Wikipedia already lists AFFS as a screen technology, so they started early on that 22:23:24 <oerjan> good, good 22:23:29 <Vorpal> Oh and there is also OLED I guess. 22:23:33 <Vorpal> and AMOLED 22:24:00 <oerjan> IAMOL'ED 22:25:06 <Vorpal> Hm I don't think each monitor around me has a different technology. Well okay not quite. There are three TN monitors with the laptops included, but apart from that I have one IPS, one AMOLED and one "Super PLS" 22:25:40 <Vorpal> 4 TN with the laptops included. I forgot the old first model ibook in the bookshelf. 22:26:22 <Bike> mrhmouse: why, i live in the lentil capitol of the world 22:26:43 <Vorpal> Bike, where is that? 22:27:09 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pullman,_Washington 22:27:12 <Bike> there's a fucking festivavl 22:27:23 <Vorpal> Ah 22:27:42 <Vorpal> Bike, hey that isn't rural. 29799 inhabitants is quite respectable 22:27:50 <Vorpal> That is a small city by Swedish measurements. 22:28:06 <Bike> it's a small city by american measurements, and are you saying small towns aren't 'respectable'! 22:28:32 <Vorpal> I live in a city that has a population of ~20000 22:28:53 <Vorpal> Can't find up-to-date numbers on the web alas 22:28:56 <Bike> anyway it's surrounded by farms and shit, is the point 22:29:02 <Vorpal> Hm 22:29:06 <oerjan> Bike: *capital 22:29:08 <Bike> the university has seed storehouses 22:29:13 <Bike> oerjan: capitil 22:29:27 <Vorpal> Bike, yeah I have like 300 m away to the closest field 22:29:32 <Vorpal> I'm a city dweller 22:30:23 <mrhmouse> You guys are funny 22:30:34 <Vorpal> mrhmouse, hm? 22:30:35 <oerjan> i used to be that close to a field too, although it was a pretty isolated one 22:30:42 <Bike> look, i ain't gonna argue about my rurality penis. 22:30:49 <oerjan> (no pun here) 22:30:55 <mrhmouse> Bike: I respect your rurality penis 22:31:07 <Vorpal> mrhmouse, I commute daily to a city with around 200000 inhabitants 22:31:11 <Bike> thank you, mrhmouse 22:31:44 <mrhmouse> I went to highschool here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excel,_Alabama but I grew up about fifteen miles from there (and it was the closest town) 22:31:52 <Vorpal> oerjan, eh I just live near the edge of the city. 22:32:12 <elliott> Excel, Alabama, twinned with Word, Germany and PowerPoint, Iran 22:32:15 <Vorpal> mrhmouse, did they use MS Office? 22:32:15 <oerjan> i think the spot i'm living in now may have been a field before this year. 22:32:20 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 22:32:23 <Bike> did you have busing? 22:32:23 <Vorpal> elliott, dammit 22:32:51 <mrhmouse> No, we did not have buses. Yes, I have heard the Office joke before. 22:32:59 <mrhmouse> So. Many. Before. 22:33:16 <Vorpal> Wait what? No buses? 22:33:18 <Vorpal> At all? 22:33:22 <Vorpal> Whaaaat? 22:33:28 <Bike> vorpal you're not american are you 22:33:54 <Bike> we had busing at my school but for the people up in the hills it took like an hour so that fucking sucked 22:33:56 <Vorpal> Bike, sure you may not have city buses, but there are always inter-city buses going through even the tiniest places... 22:34:05 <mrhmouse> Bike: Did you mean school buses? 22:34:08 <Bike> yes. 22:34:15 <mrhmouse> Vorpal: We didn't have either of those 22:34:42 <Vorpal> Bike, the city I live in is served by a couple of inter-city lines, and it has one city bus line. Which runs like 4 times per day admittedly. 22:34:44 <mrhmouse> Bike: Ah, we did have school buses. I was the last to get off on my route and the first to get on. The bus arrived at 5:30AM and dropped me off at 4:30PM 22:34:45 <Bike> there's public busing in my hometown (not pullman) but it's like an hour walk from my house to the nearest stop, so, fuck 22:34:51 <mrhmouse> School ended at 3:00PM 22:34:56 <oerjan> Bike: you lived in the hills? talk about rural 22:35:06 <Vorpal> Bike, the city I work in has maybe 10-20 city bus lines. 22:35:14 <Bike> why, these hills are the weed capitol of the world, probably 22:35:18 <Vorpal> Bike, what about commuter trains? 22:35:24 <Bike> Vorpal: lol. 22:35:37 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 22:35:44 <Vorpal> Hm? 22:35:55 <Bike> mrhmouse: for a second i thought you meant the bus ride took eleven hours 22:36:11 <Vorpal> Bike, I have like a 5 minute walk to the train station. 22:36:25 <Vorpal> So I live pretty close to it yes 22:36:29 -!- mrhmouse has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 22:36:40 <Bike> Vorpal: commuter trains in the US are a joke. 22:36:48 <Vorpal> Hm 22:36:53 <Vorpal> Sad 22:37:11 <Bike> the light rail in portland is actually pretty good, but that's a twenty mile drive from here and it doesn't cross state lines because of hilarious politicking. 22:37:22 <Bike> twenty minute* 22:37:24 <Vorpal> Heh 22:37:35 <lexande> Vorpal: the city of 100kish i was born in had one intercity bus in each direction per day. smaller cities will typically have nothing at all. 22:37:46 <Vorpal> lexande, wow 22:37:46 <Bike> as for long distance rail, well, lolamtrak 22:38:01 -!- evalj has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:38:05 <Bike> pullman has pretty alright public busing, but that's because it's full of undergrads with no cars. 22:38:28 <fizzie> Bike: Hey, I've used the Portland Light Rail! (Admittedly only for airport to hotel to airport.) 22:38:35 <fizzie> Bike: If that's the "MAX" thing. 22:38:43 <Vorpal> lexande, I work in a city of around 200k. It has around 10-20 city lines. And a whole bunch of intercity lines going all over the county (since it is the hub of the county as it were). 22:38:43 <Bike> yeah, max. 22:39:04 <lexande> even if a bus is passing through on the highway it won't bother getting off for a town of less than like 20k 22:39:13 <Vorpal> Bike, it is bad there too? Lots of delays and issues with winter weather and so on? 22:39:39 -!- typeclassy has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:39:49 <Bike> is what bad, the light rail? 22:40:03 <lexande> Vorpal: the city of 100k actually had like 8 city bus lines, that ran circuitously once an hour. though there are larger cities in the US with no public transit. 22:40:07 <Bike> if so the answer is "i don't know, i don't use it" but thankfully trainnerds are here to help http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MAX_Light_Rail 22:40:36 <Vorpal> lexande, the bus line from where I live to where I work is weird. It goes like 5 different routes during different times of the day. All using the same line number. The time table has a crazy number of footnotes to represent this. 22:40:43 <Vorpal> I think it goes to g or k 22:40:53 <lexande> Vorpal: where are you? 22:40:56 <Vorpal> Sweden 22:41:22 <lexande> if you're within a few hours of a major city in the US things are better 22:41:29 <Bike> this reminds me, i'm gonna have to take greyhound back to pullman. pray for me. 22:41:55 <lexande> there are buses to a lot of pretty nowhere places in New Jersey because people from there want to get to NYC without having to park in NYC 22:41:59 <Phantom_Hoover> don't people get stabbed and eaten on greyhounds 22:42:05 <Vorpal> lexande, eh what is a major city by your definition? Remember Sweden as a whole has ~9.5 million inhabitants 22:42:33 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: i think that was actually in canada. 22:42:44 <Vorpal> what is a greyhound in this context? Dog sled??? XD 22:42:48 <Phantom_Hoover> bus 22:42:53 <Phantom_Hoover> lern4google 22:42:56 <Vorpal> How boring 22:42:58 <Bike> lern 4. 22:43:03 <oerjan> i recall someone pointing out the other day all of norway has fewer inhabitants than birmingham. 22:43:08 <Bike> Vorpal: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Tim_McLean here, this will probably be less boring. 22:43:39 <fizzie> oerjan: All of Norway has fewer inhabitants than Finland. 22:43:44 <Vorpal> Ouch 22:44:05 <lexande> Vorpal: well, Portland OR or Pittsburgh are just about large enough to have this effect, and are comparable in urban area population to Stockholm 22:44:06 <Vorpal> fizzie, Finland has like 7 million right? 22:44:08 <Bike> wow, five million. i think my metro area might have more than that. 22:44:09 <elliott> buses with toilets?? 22:44:15 <elliott> I guess I have never been on a bus that goes very far 22:44:15 <oerjan> fizzie: oh dear 22:44:21 <Vorpal> oh, 5.4 22:44:26 <oerjan> hm that birmingham guy was completely wrong. 22:44:35 <fizzie> Vorpal: Yeah, it's only barely above Norway. 22:44:44 <Bike> the whole SYSTEM is wrong, man 22:44:46 <ais523\unfoog> Birmingham used to have about a million inhabitants, it's probably more now 22:45:04 <Vorpal> Hm 22:45:08 <Bike> oh, portland metro is under 2.5 million 22:45:11 <Bike> half a norway 22:45:21 <Vorpal> ais523\unfoog, hi! Also interesting name 22:45:27 <nooodl_> "The family of Tim McLean have brought a [[lawsuit]] of [[Canadian dollar|$]]150,000 [...]" that is a good secret wikilink
22:45:33 <ais523\unfoog> Vorpal: this is my /dev/null/nethack clantag
22:45:35 <fizzie> Bike: "Half a Norway in the subway at the same time?!"
22:45:39 <Vorpal> Ah
22:45:59 <Bike> terrifying
22:46:18 <oerjan> Vorpal: we just passed 5 millions the other ...february, but i'm not sure if it was this year.
22:46:23 <Vorpal> Oh my god. That is way too many Norwegians to comprehend
22:46:23 <Bike> wait. i meant 'metro' like 'metro area', not 'metropolitan train'
22:46:43 <Bike> the taking of norhelm 1-2-3
22:47:29 <lexande> re portland light rail, it works alright but is nothing special
22:47:38 <lexande> it has to poke along in mixed traffic waiting at stoplights downtown
22:47:52 <Vorpal> Light rail? Is that like trams?
22:47:56 <lexande> yeah
22:48:04 <lexande> "light rail" means a tram built after 1960
22:48:10 <lexande> basically
22:48:17 <Bike> heh.
22:48:34 <Vorpal> Oh according to WP it is not quite the same
22:48:37 <fizzie> Compared to Helsinki's trams, the MAX trains felt a tiny bit more train-ish, but not by very much. At least from a subjective, non-expert viewpoint.
22:48:42 <Vorpal> Trying to figure out what the different is though
22:49:08 <Vorpal> "Conversely, LRVs generally outperform traditional streetcars in terms of capacity and top-end speed, and almost all modern LRVs are capable of multiple-unit operation. Particularly on exclusive rights-of-way, LRVs can provide much higher speeds and passenger volumes than a traditional streetcar.[citation needed] Thus a single-unit streetcar capable of only 70 kilometres per hour (43 mph) operating on a
22:49:08 <Vorpal> shared right of way is not generally considered "light rail".[citation needed] The latest generation of LRVs is considerably larger and faster, typically 29 metres (95 ft) long with a maximum speed of around 105 kilometres per hour (65 mph).[19]"
22:49:43 <lexande> Vorpal: so, if it just runs in the street in mixed traffic with cars it's dubious to call it light rail (portland has a line that does that and they just call it "streetcar")
22:49:45 <Bike> pff, i don't think a max train has ever gone that fast
22:49:50 <Vorpal> LRV being light rail vehicle
22:50:22 <Vorpal> lexande, is that a question? Because I don't know the answer to that question
22:50:32 <lexande> but if it's anything even slightly better than mixed-traffic-in-the-street-like-a-bus-on-rails, it will be called light rail
22:50:44 <fizzie> Incidentally, they're at the moment introducing (test driving) new trams in Helsinki.
22:50:48 <Vorpal> Half of the pictures on this page looks like proper railways to me, and half look like trams
22:50:49 <Vorpal> so meh
22:50:58 <lexande> for political/marketing reasons, regardless of anybody's attempt to make stricter technical definitions of "light rail"
22:51:46 <lexande> Vorpal: well, the idea of light rail when done optimally is that you run like a proper railway when you can and like a street tram otherwise
22:52:13 <Vorpal> Ah
22:52:30 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helsinki_tram#Future_acquisitions "Two new trams are start test runs in line service in 2013, and --" some train nerd should go update that, they've already started.
22:52:54 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined.
22:53:08 <Bike> in the city max is like buses, but it runs outside the city too, where it's more trainy
22:53:25 <Bike> outside downtown, whatever
22:53:41 <lexande> so for example if you have a disused railway line that doesn't make it to the city centre, you use that and then use street tracks to get it the rest of the way
22:54:35 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
22:54:58 <lexande> (Vorpal: what cities are you familiar with? i can probably come up with a european example)
22:55:35 <Vorpal> lexande, Stockholm and Gothenburg
22:55:48 <Vorpal> One has a metro the other has proper trams
22:56:00 <Vorpal> That definitely runs in the street
22:56:05 <Vorpal> Terribly noisy and old
22:56:48 <Vorpal> lexande, god damn, these things still run. No wonder they are so noisy, given the year of that image... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Tram_in_Gothenburgh_1963.jpg
22:57:12 <lexande> anyway Portland is mostly like what i described above (except sometimes the middle of a freeway instead of a disused railway)
22:57:24 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
22:57:58 <fizzie> There are still some built-in-the-70s trams working in the Helsinki system.
22:58:04 <lexande> on the other hand maybe you have downtown streets that are small and full of traffic, but wide fast streets further out, in which case you build a tunnel downtown but then run in the street further out to save tunnelling costs
22:58:07 <fizzie> And a couple of museum pieces, but those don't count.
22:58:19 <Vorpal> "When Sweden’s switch to right-hand traffic in 1967 made existing unidirectional trams obsolete, Gothenburg was one of only two cities in Sweden to maintain its city-centre tramway, the other such network to survive being the Norrköping tramway."
22:58:23 <Vorpal> Heh, I didn't know that
22:58:32 <Vorpal> Explains why they are so rare here then
22:59:19 <Vorpal> Mostly just buses nowdays. The city buses in the city I work in runs on biogas though.
22:59:31 <fizzie> Apparently they've got six 1962-1964 trams also used as "backup" when necessary.
22:59:41 <Vorpal> I think I read about there being electric buses in Karlskrona or something
23:00:12 <fizzie> And the oldest of the "museum" trams is originally from 1917, though it's been renovated.
23:00:15 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
23:00:32 <fizzie> Oh, that one's just a replica. Aw. :/
23:00:58 <fizzie> The 1955 one is a touched-up original, though.
23:01:23 <lexande> hmm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_transport_in_Stockholm#Light_rail_and_tram
23:03:09 <Vorpal> lexande, pretty sure that Stockholm has underground metro and buses exclusively in the city center. And that one tram line yes.
23:03:19 <fizzie> The fact that those all end up in "-banan" (banana) always amuses me. I tend to pronounce it like the fruit.
23:03:24 <Vorpal> The metro goes above ground in some outlying regions though
23:03:59 <Vorpal> lexande, but it *never* goes on normal streets. That would be super-dangerous since it uses a third rail system rather than overhead electrification.
23:04:05 <lexande> this thing considers the nockebybanan, lidingöbanan and tvärbanan to be light rail
23:04:18 <fizzie> The (horse) race track nearby here has a "Travbanan ->" sign pointing at it.
23:04:20 <lexande> though only the last seems to have significant street running
23:04:31 <Vorpal> Oh wait, this is different
23:04:32 <Vorpal> Hm
23:04:48 <lexande> those three are all a ways out from the centre
23:04:53 <fizzie> The Stockholm metro, aka "tunnel banana".
23:05:06 <Vorpal> Never been on tvärbanan
23:05:26 <Vorpal> Guess that is light rail yes
23:06:16 <Vorpal> "Near Liljeholmen the track is shared with freight traffic in a short section, this being the only place in Sweden where freight and electric trains share the same track."
23:06:20 <Vorpal> About tvärbanan
23:06:25 <Vorpal> What? Really?
23:06:27 <FireFly> fizzie: swedes sometimes intentionally prononce it as such, too
23:06:45 <FireFly> fizzie: or rather, some of my friends do, at least
23:06:59 <FireFly> to pun, I mean
23:07:14 <fizzie> There's a longstanding plan to build a "proper" light rail system in Helsinki, but so far they've just managed to paint some buses orange.
23:07:22 <Vorpal> I live a couple of hundred meters from the regular railroad. It is electrified. It has inter city, commuter and freight trains
23:07:30 <Vorpal> So I have no clue what that WP article meant
23:07:41 <Vorpal> maybe it meant "light rail and freight" or something like that
23:08:39 <fizzie> "In the Helsinki region, there are also other plans to expand the network, through a larger project called Jokeri ("The Joker", after the playing card). This planned expansion, if constructed, would be the first real light rail line in Helsinki, and would involve the conversion of the current Jokeri bus line, line 550, into a cross city tramway similar to Stockholm's Tvärbanan." Heh, they're ...
23:08:45 <fizzie> ... referring to that.
23:09:06 <fizzie> (550 is the bus line with the orange buses.)
23:09:50 <Vorpal> fizzie, as long as Batman doesn't get wind of it, that would work fine.
23:10:08 <FireFly> Did you know that roslagsbanan is the only narrow-gauge track in regular use in Sweden?
23:10:40 <lexande> but yeah, "light rail" is a marketing term that gets applied to things ranging from "only slightly less crappy than a mixed traffic streetcar" to "only slightly crappier than a full underground high-capacity metro"
23:11:22 <Vorpal> FireFly, heh, it is DC too, not AC
23:11:25 <Vorpal> that is pretty weird
23:11:50 <Vorpal> "Motorerna är trefas asynkronmotorer som matas med växelström. I varje motorvagn finns en s.k. traktionsomriktare som omvandlar likströmmen i kontaktledningen (1500 V) till växelström för motorerna. Motoreffekten är 400 kW."
23:12:06 <FireFly> Vorpal: hm, where in sweden do you live?
23:12:21 <Vorpal> FireFly, i Örebros omnejd
23:12:27 <FireFly> Or, as boily would say, what are your approximate coördinates?
23:12:29 <FireFly> Oh, okay
23:12:51 <Vorpal> FireFly, you?
23:13:10 <FireFly> Stockholm suburb
23:13:16 <Vorpal> Ah
23:13:48 <Vorpal> FireFly, never liked Stockholm. Way too big. At least it isn't as bad as Gothenburg when driving. Bloody one way streets over there...
23:14:20 <FireFly> Vorpal: I've heard driving in Lund is like a labyrinth due to one-way roads
23:14:30 <fizzie> If I remember our plans right, we're probably going to be passing through Örebro sometime next summer.
23:14:31 <Vorpal> Never been there
23:15:02 <Vorpal> Gothenburg is pretty much a mesh (and mess) of one-way streets, trams, tunnels and highways. Also a lot of hills. A LOT of hills.
23:15:23 <Vorpal> fizzie, heh. Nice.
23:15:39 <Vorpal> Not much to see really. Pretty boring city
23:15:40 <FireFly> At least Lund is completely flat
23:15:47 <Vorpal> FireFly, so like Örebro then
23:16:23 <Vorpal> I think I live near like the only hill within kilometers. Actually an "ås" whatever that is in English
23:16:51 <Vorpal> So not very high. Maybe a total of 5-10 meters above the rest of the plains here
23:16:59 <fizzie> (I've said this before, but) trams are one of the traditional "gotcha" questions in the Finnish driver's license theory exam, because they have some right-of-way exceptions. (Usually in the form that there's a picture of a scene, a question on right-of-way, and a tram partially hidden behind a bush.)
23:17:05 <lexande> FireFly: do people commonly answer boily like "40.80, -73.94"?
23:17:24 <FireFly> lexande: something like that
23:17:40 <FireFly> lexande: usually accompanied with approximate body weigh, too
23:18:04 <fizzie> lexande: It's all a part of a project to calculate the center of mass of the channel, you see.
23:18:24 <FireFly> It is conjectured to lie in Hexham
23:18:40 <fizzie> "Under Hexham" sounds more likely.
23:18:40 <lexande> 90kg or a bit less
23:19:06 <lexande> i move around a lot though
23:20:31 <fizzie> I fed those numbers in maps.google, and it's like right next to "Best Hair & Nail Salon" -- a shame that's not Real Fast Nora's.
23:21:30 <lexande> maybe i should try to figure out my average position over the past year
23:22:21 <Vorpal> fizzie, I don't remember any tram stuff in the driving license stuff, but out of pure survival instinct I would probably give any tram right of way
23:23:10 <lexande> i stayed at (37.77, -122.40) for a while
23:23:38 <FireFly> I've worked around that problem by not having a driver license
23:23:46 <FireFly> driving*
23:23:53 -!- Vorpal has changed nick to an.
23:24:00 -!- an has changed nick to Vorpal.
23:24:01 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined.
23:24:21 <fizzie> Vorpal: That would generally be the correct answer here, too. (Though usually the point is that, given the limited time, you'd look at the otherwise plausible scenario and answer based on that, instead of noticing the semi-hidden tram.)
23:24:42 <Vorpal> heh
23:25:00 <FireFly> lexande: Lexande, near Lexington Avenue? seems.. fitting
23:25:14 <fizzie> (Though the "trams have right-of-way no matter what their approach direction" exception doesn't -- as far as I know, anyway -- override explicit right-of-way signage.)
23:26:03 <Vorpal> Hm
23:26:23 <Vorpal> good night
23:26:34 <fizzie> lexande: You stayed inside a "Budget Truck Rental" building for a while? Well, whatever floats your truck, I guess.
23:26:43 <fizzie> (Yes, yes, "approximate".)
23:27:25 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
23:27:33 <Vorpal> Also coordinate systems suck.
23:27:55 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
23:28:03 <oerjan> fizzie: what happens if you answer all the questions based on the assumption that there might be a tram hidden somewhere you don't see
23:28:48 <fizzie> oerjan: Probably they'll ask you to try again after studying a bit more.
23:29:08 <Vorpal> I looked at code for converting from whatever NMEA gives you (WGS iirc) to various local coordinate systems and so on. What a confusing mess that is.
23:29:10 <oerjan> fizzie: bloody examinators
23:29:17 <fizzie> oerjan: From what I recall, it's mostly multiple-choice stuff, so you don't get to explain your reasoning.
23:29:41 <oerjan> fiendish
23:29:51 <oerjan> clearly this is a plot to end humanity.
23:30:06 <oerjan> by the evil trams.
23:31:04 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
23:32:25 <lexande> i think the most amusing place i stayed this year was -36.836, 174.751 or so
23:33:17 <quintopia> fizzie: well, i was assuming we were going to project the actual centroid to the nearest point on the sphere
23:34:26 <fizzie> quintopia: There is no sphere. Also, I've completely forgotten what the center of mass was for, really.
23:34:54 <quintopia> fizzie: sure there is. "the surface of the earth as approximated by a sphere" is a definitely a sphere
23:34:57 <FireFly> lexande: on a boat?
23:35:01 <lexande> yup
23:35:32 <lexande> (that some friends had sailed there from san diego)
23:35:48 <FireFly> Nice
23:36:25 <lexande> FireFly: what are your approximate coördinates?
23:37:07 <FireFly> Approx. 59,204, 17,89
23:37:38 <FireFly> You get commas as decimal points because apparently Google Maps felt like localising them
23:38:41 <fizzie> "We could not understand the location 59,204, 17,89" it also doesn't feel like delocalizing.
23:44:04 <Bike> wait, do you use a comma to separate numbers?
23:44:14 <Bike> like, not as the radix
23:44:36 <FireFly> 1 000 000,00
23:44:42 <nooodl_> i'm european and write comma tuples as (3,4; 5,6)
23:44:50 <Bike> yeah, that seems better
23:45:06 <FireFly> Yeah, that's what we use too
23:45:07 <zzo38> I think the SI standard specifies to use spaces to group digits.
23:45:26 <ais523\unfoog> I think I saw somewhere a suggestion to use half-width non-breaking spaces
23:45:33 <ais523\unfoog> but I don't even know how to type that
23:45:42 <FireFly> Or rather, it's a mix between (3,4; 5,6), (3.4, 5.6) or (3,4, 5,6)
23:45:48 <FireFly> usually it's clear what is meant, anyway
23:46:07 <ais523\unfoog> nooodl_: OpenFormula uses ; as the argument separator everywhere in order to avoid localisation problems if commas are part of the numeric syntax
23:46:36 <zzo38> I always use . as the radix point and nothing as digit grouping.
23:46:51 <FireFly> I usually use . as radix point and spaces to group digits
23:47:06 <FireFly> I use , as radix point when writing by hand, though
23:47:33 <fizzie> Using , as a radix point feels weird, though it is also the Finnish way.
23:47:58 <FireFly> Even for doing calculations by hand?
23:48:08 <FireFly> I grew up with using , there, so I guess that's why it's stuck
23:48:26 <fizzie> I guess maybe by hand it's less weird.
23:48:36 <fizzie> Can't say I've been written that many decimal numbers by hand lately.
23:52:55 -!- muskrat has joined.
23:52:59 -!- muskrat has left.
23:53:19 <fizzie> UTR #20 recommends U+2009 THIN SPACE between decimal digits and following fractions, "as in 1 ¾".
23:55:12 <Bike> U+200A HAIR'S BREATH SPACE, U+200B SHADOW WIDTH SPACE, U+200C PLANCK SPACE
23:56:00 <fizzie> run unidecode '⎖' # this also exists, not sure what for
23:56:02 <HackEgo> ​[U+2396 DECIMAL SEPARATOR KEY SYMBOL]
23:57:53 <ais523\unfoog> run unicode U+200C
23:57:55 <HackEgo> Unknown character.
23:58:01 <ais523\unfoog> hmm
23:58:11 <ais523\unfoog> run printf "\u200c" | unidecode
23:58:13 <HackEgo> No output.
23:58:20 <Bike> zero width non-joiner, apparently
23:58:35 <oerjan> unidecode ‌
23:58:35 <Bike> run cat \$(which unicode)
23:58:36 <HackEgo> ​[U+200C ZERO WIDTH NON-JOINER]
23:58:37 <HackEgo> ​#!/usr/bin/env python \ # -*- encoding: utf-8 -*- \ import sys \ import unicodedata \ try: \ print u''.join(map(unicodedata.lookup, sys.argv[1:])).encode('utf-8') \ except KeyError: \ print u'Unknown character.'
23:58:58 <Bike> oh so i have no idea how it works.
23:59:03 <Bike> unicode ZERO WIDTH NON-JOINER
23:59:04 <HackEgo> ​‌
23:59:08 <Bike> unicode 200c
23:59:09 <HackEgo> Unknown character.
23:59:13 <Bike> rats
23:59:23 <ais523\unfoog> <Randall Munroe> In trying to turn off SafeSearch, a setting on a web form, I rendered my system unbootable
←2013-11-23 2013-11-24 2013-11-25→ ↑2013 ↑all