00:00:33 <coppro> ais523: ah ok. I think what they're trying to do with wave is wallcrawl to plasma without it
00:00:41 <coppro> and then pick it up later
00:01:03 <ais523> they're trying to get into Phendrana without Varia
00:01:15 <ais523> which requires Wave (obviously impossible), or Plasma + a bunch of tricks that haven't been found yet
00:01:17 <ais523> but they're looking for them
00:01:52 <coppro> they're trying to go through the back door
00:02:15 <coppro> and they're down to needing only 2 more tricks
00:02:58 <coppro> do you know offhand if you can wallcrawl out of the magmoor damage, like you can in dark aether?
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00:20:58 <Phantom_Hoover> coppro, ais523, did any of you play other m by any chance
00:21:06 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: hahahahahahahaha
00:22:17 <coppro> Phantom_Hoover: I've beaten it
00:22:28 <coppro> I'm not sure why the question is *that* funny to ais523
00:22:32 <Sgeo> "The discovery of this room was a complete accident – much like this entire project – and to top it off, it is in a default world."
00:22:40 <Sgeo> So WHY did you categorize it as a "custom" world?
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00:23:52 <coppro> NewYearInterpol: it's highly on topic here
00:24:27 <ais523> well, not /really/, unless someone proves Metroid TC
00:24:38 <ais523> it's probably PSPACE_complete the same way Mario is, actually
00:24:42 <coppro> this channel is not actually about esoteric programming languages
00:24:51 <ais523> yeah, I keep leaving because of that
00:25:40 <coppro> http://arxiv.org/pdf/1203.1895v1.pdf
00:26:13 <Sgeo> And... this person misunderstands how Worlds actually works
00:29:44 <ais523> coppro: hope that it's got better
00:29:50 <ais523> or occasionally to test out a BF Joust program
00:30:10 <coppro> in zero mission you can grab a ledge and morph from it, right?
00:30:17 <Sgeo> NewYearInterpol: really, really old 3d chat program
00:30:17 <coppro> that would break the constructions for Zero Mission
00:30:25 <ais523> with the Power Grip, yes, I think
00:30:42 <ais523> you can use crumble blocks, though
00:30:47 <ais523> in order to create one-way corridors
00:30:48 <Sgeo> I hope this note I left isn't too rude http://gradualdime.wikia.com/wiki/Animal_House_Control_Room
00:30:58 <ais523> the hard part is creating switches that have effects down the line
00:31:30 <ais523> we're discussing the computational class of Metroid games
00:31:56 <Bike> not really, just level editing
00:31:59 <ais523> well, more like theoretical ROM hacking
00:32:03 <ais523> we're not planning to hack any ROMs
00:32:06 <Bike> along the lines of the mario and dkcountry NP proofs
00:32:06 <ais523> just to discuss how it might work
00:32:13 <Bike> (i love that that paper had figures)
00:32:16 <coppro> I suspect that the proof still holds, you just need more complicated gadgets
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00:32:53 <ais523> well for Mario and Donkey Kong Country, you can use shells/barrels
00:32:55 <Bike> can you just not provide spacejump and use gravity for diodes?
00:33:02 <Bike> i guess i don't remember how the mechanisms worked anyway.
00:33:05 <ais523> Bike: infinite wall jump can be done with no items
00:33:06 <coppro> I'm just talking metroid games with power trip
00:33:09 <ais523> but you can use crumble blocks for diodes
00:33:11 <ais523> that's what they're for
00:33:20 <ais523> completely undefeatable
00:33:23 <Bike> man, i could never walljump for ass.
00:33:30 <Bike> could you walljump in the original?
00:33:30 <ais523> Bike: it's intentionally difficult
00:33:33 <ais523> so that you won't find it by mistake
00:33:37 <coppro> super metroid cheats and has a crossover built in
00:33:39 <ais523> and in the original probably not
00:33:50 <Bike> i've never played super metroid >_>
00:33:54 <ais523> coppro: that really long pipe thing in Maridia?
00:34:05 <Bike> got the rom but it turns out phone touchpads are not good enough for snes controls
00:34:09 <ais523> filling a game of /those/ would be tedious
00:34:26 <ais523> Bike: especially not Super Metroid, which has famously convoluted controls
00:34:36 <ais523> they had to simplify them for Fusion because of fewer buttons
00:35:07 <Bike> well, no way you could do fusion's trigger for missiles thing
00:36:07 <ais523> I think you might be able to do a crossover simply using momentum
00:37:09 <coppro> ais523: actually, yeah, you could do it with regenerating speed boost blocks
00:37:35 <ais523> is there a way to stop people shinesparking back the way they came, though?
00:37:41 <coppro> you don't need to care about that
00:37:52 <coppro> you just need to ensure they can't change directions
00:37:52 <ais523> I guess if you have some curved, crossing paths
00:37:54 <ais523> NewYearInterpol: crossover
00:38:16 <ais523> coppro: I'm thinking, you charge the speed boost, crouch on the way, then set it off in the middle
00:38:21 <Bike> a way ffor two paths to cross.
00:38:22 <ais523> instantly refilling your momentum
00:38:33 <coppro> ais523: use speed boost vertically, morph ball tunnel horizontally
00:38:50 <ais523> coppro: you can't speed boost downwards, but I guess that doesn't matter?
00:38:54 <Bike> no i fucking didn't
00:38:58 <coppro> ais523: you only need one direction
00:39:27 <ais523> in Super Metroid, what if you get down to low HP so that it stops halfway through, just when you're level with the tunnel
00:39:33 <ais523> (say using failed shinesparks)
00:39:43 <ais523> then mid-air morph and roll into the tunnel
00:39:57 <Bike> it's what i said!
00:39:58 <coppro> super metroid doesn't have the power glove, so it's not a concern
00:40:08 <Bike> they're talking about making a horizontal route and a vertical route go through the same tiles
00:40:15 <coppro> and other m is 3d so you can just implement it by having them go round
00:40:24 <ais523> coppro: it is, you can get into a morph tunnel in mid-air in Super Metroid
00:40:28 <coppro> so mzm and fusion are the only ones you need to worry about
00:40:30 <ais523> speedrunners do it all the time on the way back from getting bombs
00:40:38 <coppro> ais523: oh, good point
00:40:40 <ais523> it's ridiculously precise but it's possible
00:41:06 <coppro> but super metroid already has a crossover so all's good
00:41:18 <coppro> this breaks the Clause gadget too
00:41:27 <coppro> actually, it's totally broken in any game with power bombs
00:41:44 <ais523> can't you use super missile blocks instead, which are immune to power bombs?
00:42:13 <coppro> ais523: how do you make it implement a 3-sat clause though?
00:42:22 <ais523> coppro: I'm not sure yet
00:46:30 <oerjan> just do planar 3-coloring, no crossover needed.
00:49:15 <ais523> how does the Clause gadget work again?
00:49:29 <coppro> ais523: lots of zoomers
00:49:56 <ais523> do you have a link to the PDF handy?
00:50:11 <ais523> also I didn't realise there was a Metroid version already
00:51:24 <coppro> it's all the same paper
00:51:36 <ais523> I missed the link the first time
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01:26:07 <ais523> there are quite a few issues in this paper
01:26:18 <ais523> we've already discussed the Power Grip issue with the given crossover in Metroid
01:26:28 <ais523> (and more worryingly, the Clause construction)
01:27:09 <ais523> the Pokémon construction's also "wrong", in that Alakazam could keep missing with Psychic (it has a 255/256 hit chance), but that's easily fixable via PP abuses
01:29:20 <coppro> ais523: Clause is vulnerable to power bomb
01:29:31 <coppro> ais523: afaict the construction works for the original metroid though
01:29:45 <coppro> although it might actually be possible to get through with some bombs
01:30:23 <ais523> if you can infinite bomb jump in the original metroid
01:30:28 <coppro> ais523: do you have any good let's play recommendations?
01:30:30 <ais523> you could just get into it from below
01:30:36 <coppro> ais523: in original metroid?
01:30:54 <ais523> via infinite bomb jump into the tunnel after killing the zoomers
01:31:03 <ais523> although I think their constructions are designed to just not give you the power bomb
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03:39:20 <zzo38> Do you know how to make the graphics for the Famicom version of my "Attribute Zone" game?
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03:49:06 <zzo38> Currently only PC version exists, and it just uses PC text mode graphics.
03:50:55 <zzo38> (Despite this, the game rules are designed around the Famicom.)
03:50:58 <kmc> what is the game like?
03:51:18 <kmc> can i play it?
03:51:53 <kmc> if you advertise software as for "PC" but no OS then I'm going to assume it's bootable and will run it in QEmu :)
03:53:00 <zzo38> kmc: That is a good idea, but I have included no bootloader; it needs some DOS functions. It is a DOS program. However maybe it can be fixed to support a plain PC.
03:53:08 <zzo38> kmc: Yes, you can play it, you need the file http://zzo38computer.org/GAMES/CGACOLL.ZIP which contains ATTRZONE.*
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03:53:43 <kmc> then I can play it in DOSBox probably
03:55:01 <zzo38> And then you need a way to run DOS programs, or some way to compile it to work in other systems (although it uses PC hardware registers, so you need to convert those too unless you only want to remove the OS requirement and still have it run in a PC or PC emulator).
03:55:10 <zzo38> So, yes probably DOSBox will work.
03:57:18 <quintopia> can you briefly describe the goal and idea of the game
03:57:54 <zzo38> It is described in the relevant section of CGACOLL.DOC (search it for "ATTRZONE"), but I can also explain more if you have other questions.
03:58:24 <Bike> you need to hire a PR person.
03:58:47 <zzo38> Bike: If I intend to sell any of these things sometimes, then maybe I will. But for now I don't.
04:00:55 * quintopia installs an android x86 emu for DOSing
04:02:47 <zzo38> The main idea of this game is that you cannot have two different non-white colors of pieces in a single 2x2 block. Another rule is no more than eight sprites per row.
04:03:01 <zzo38> Currently there is only two levels but you can make your own if you want to.
04:03:09 <Bike> maybe you could start with "it's a puzzle game"
04:03:20 <zzo38> O, yes, it is that.
04:03:34 <zzo38> This ZIP archive is full of many other games too!
04:21:16 <quintopia> damn the dos emu for android doesn't let you add new files to its filesystem. it emulates a fixed hard drive
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05:54:07 <shachaf> So there's the idea of a "free object" on a set where you take an equivalence class of ASTs, more or less.
05:55:09 <shachaf> E.g. you start with all the elements in a set, you add a 1 element and you make every tree that you can using (*), and then you consider trees equal if the monoid laws force them to be equal.
05:55:56 <shachaf> But there's also e.g. the idea of a free category on a graph, where you take paths through the graph (and if your graph has one object and a set of loops, you end up with the same free monoid).
05:56:11 <shachaf> Can you think of a construction like that in a similar way?
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05:58:50 <shachaf> I don't have much intuition for the general sense of "free object" other than the definition (a left adjoint).
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06:50:10 <kmc> $ evince downloads/541.pdf
06:50:10 <kmc> (evince:9676): GLib-ERROR **: creating thread 'EvJobScheduler': Error creating thread: Resource temporarily unavailable
06:50:13 <kmc> Trace/breakpoint trap
06:50:45 <kmc> it worked the second time because chromium crashed in the meantime?
07:08:23 <Sgeo> "Unlike Bitcoin, Namecoin, and Litecoin, Peercoin does not have a hard limit on the number of possible coins, but is designed to eventually attain an annual inflation rate of 1 percent. This feature, along with increased energy efficiency, aim to allow for greater long-term scalability."
07:08:36 <Sgeo> Is that.. actually more sensible, or is that just guessing that that's more sensible?
07:09:16 <Bike> the fed controls inflation thrugh controlling interest rates, i think? i don't know how an intrinsic inflation efects things
07:15:45 <Sgeo> Oh neat, proof of stake basically makes sure that transaction fees aren't sole incentive for miners
07:34:40 <kmc> Sgeo: a hard limit gives you deflation, which encourages hoarding rather than spending
07:34:49 <kmc> so it seems to me like a good change
07:34:54 <kmc> but i know next to nothing about economics
07:36:06 <kmc> you can say that cryptocurrencies have mortmain monetary policy but really they have monetary policy set by a hashrate-weighted direct democracy
07:36:39 <kmc> it would be interesting to have a decentralized currency with a one-vote-per-person direct democracy
07:37:35 <kmc> you probably need some central authority to decide what a "person" is, though
07:37:42 <kmc> fancy word
07:37:54 <Bike> beyond a poor peasant like me, sir
07:38:06 <kmc> central authority e.g. a national identity smartcard system like taiwan has (only without the fatally broken random number generators lolololol)
07:39:32 <Bike> here i thought it was some hipness for "mortal [dying] main authority"
07:39:41 <kmc> and you could do anonymous e-voting (the usual way is additively homeomorphic encryption, I believe)
07:40:12 * kmc tries to remember how that works
07:40:23 <shachaf> whoa whoa whoa, homeomorphic encryption?
07:40:28 <Bike> homeomorphic encrytion is dark magic and nothing less
07:40:37 <kmc> guess it's spellt homomorphic
07:40:45 <kmc> but other fields use the two words interchangeably don't they?
07:40:46 <Bike> are there actual implementations, i forget
07:40:50 <Bike> like, good ones.
07:41:07 <Sgeo> I think I like parpolity but not parecon, but parpolity seems to rely on parecon
07:41:10 <kmc> well even RSA is homomorphic for multiplication
07:41:20 <shachaf> kmc: the only meaning of "homeomorphism" i've ever heard is "isomorphism of topological spaces"
07:41:42 <shachaf> homeomorphic encryption sounds like it would be exciting
07:41:49 <kmc> Bike: but there are actual implementations for schemes that can compute any circuit, too
07:41:53 <kmc> https://github.com/shaih/HElib
07:41:56 <kmc> i don't know about "good ones"
07:42:10 <kmc> bootstrapped homomorphic encryption is p. cool
07:42:14 <Bike> well, i just mean, like, usable to run a country or whatever.
07:42:28 <Bike> "Bike, nothing is good by that standard."
07:42:30 <ion> Homeopathic encryption: add 9 parts NULs to 1 part of data, shake well into three directions, repeat the process 30 to 100 times.
07:43:15 <ion> Take a part of the result, it will contain the essence of the original data.
07:45:48 <kmc> Bike: with a HE primitive, you can only do a certain amount of computation on each encrypted value, and bootstrapping solves this awesomely with self-reference
07:45:50 <Sgeo> "However, security against adaptive chosen ciphertext attacks (CCA2) is equivalent to non-malleability."
07:46:25 <kmc> http://crypto.stanford.edu/craig/easy-fhe.pdf is the shit
07:46:27 <Bike> i tried to understand hom(e)omorphic encryption once but couldn't get past the consequences. incidentally this is about as far as i understand any encyryption
07:46:50 <Bike> that's not really incidental so much as my entire point, hm.
07:47:31 <kmc> consequences?
07:47:53 <Bike> the whole computation on encrypted data thingie
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08:01:00 <kmc> what do you mean by "get past" i guess
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08:02:45 <Bike> that i don't unerstand shit
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10:26:34 <Sgeo> Apparently floating eyes that hunt you down and chomp at you and put you in a secret part of the attic are "weird"
10:34:42 <fizzie> Does that happen to you often?
10:35:31 <Sgeo> It happens in WorldsPlayer when someone in AnimalHouse gets past a fence they shouldn't be able to
10:35:41 <Sgeo> I don't know why people keep calling WorldsPlayer creepy
10:36:17 <fizzie> Does it bother you that people keep calling WorldsPlayer creepy? [Responses from this point on provided by M-x doctor.]
10:42:21 <Sgeo> "Woah... that's just a mirror, but it freaked me out, because this game is weird"
10:42:53 <fizzie> When did you first know that this game is weird?
10:43:17 <fizzie> Aw, I have to go to the shop now. (That was no longer from Emacs.)
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12:50:22 <HackEgo> Membiio: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
12:51:26 <Membiio> >+++++++++++++[->++++++++++++++<]>+++++++++++++++++.
12:51:38 <oerjan> ^bf >+++++++++++++[->++++++++++++++<]>+++++++++++++++++.
12:52:36 <oerjan> !bf >+++++++++++++[->++++++++++++++<]>+++++++++++++++++.
12:53:14 <oerjan> fortunately EgoBot also has a bf command.
12:55:08 <fizzie> pratchett.freenode.net seems to have gone away.
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12:56:34 <oerjan> i doubt we have any FiM++ experts here.
12:57:51 <oerjan> maybe Gregor, since he's a brony
12:58:07 <oerjan> but he doesn't look present
13:02:05 <oerjan> Membiio: i'm afraid the reason we don't talk about FiM++ and languages like that (e.g. LOLCODE) much is that they're really just a heap of fluff around an underlying very _normal_ language.
13:02:40 <oerjan> so the things we _do_ like to talk about here are even worse to program in.
13:02:55 <oerjan> (you've already noticed bf)
13:04:20 <Membiio> WE NEED A LANGUAGE BASED ON BACON AND BAGELS.
13:04:42 <oerjan> well you can try Chef, that's at least food :P
13:09:14 <oerjan> well chef is a lot of fluff _and_ a more awkward underlying language. i cannot exactly read it on the spot either.
13:11:26 <oerjan> for a language _without_ fluff and very simply basic commands, you can try Underload. alas it's still not easy to do anything advanced with.
13:12:00 <oerjan> bf also doesn't have fluff.
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13:32:34 <fizzie> Except maybe FOOD FOR THOUGHT.
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13:47:26 <Taneb> BCKW calculus is totally underrated
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13:54:30 <oerjan> `addquote <ion> Homeopathic encryption: add 9 parts NULs to 1 part of data, shake well into three directions, repeat the process 30 to 100 times.
13:54:34 <HackEgo> 1153) <ion> Homeopathic encryption: add 9 parts NULs to 1 part of data, shake well into three directions, repeat the process 30 to 100 times.
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14:01:54 <boily> good anne morning!
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14:02:37 <metasepia> CYQB 021300Z 02004KT 30SM FEW015 SCT180 M31/M36 A3055 RMK SC1AC2 SLP355
14:07:39 <boily> that would be me. I've been shifted to a different table because my mom and aunt are going to do scrapbooking today. I'm sitting at a green one in the basement.
14:07:47 <boily> so that makes me Anne of Green Tables.
14:12:43 <fizzie> boily: "I predict that a century hence the Canadian people will be the noblest specimens of humanity on the face of the Earth", rev. John Bredin, 1863, via xkcd. Do you feel this was an accurate prediction?
14:14:33 <boily> fizzie: not to sound sycophantic this morning, but I thing Scandinavian people are in a better pool position than us.
14:17:19 <fizzie> boily: Does "better pool position" translate to "more likely to go down a hole"?
14:19:31 <boily> fizzie: I'm drinking coffee. I can't be pessimistic.
14:20:08 <int-e> kmc: good topic ... nothing sounds stranger than the truth.
14:20:34 <boily> what happened to the poor /topic?
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16:08:24 <fizzie> Catface, he's got a big cat's face, he's got the body of a cat, and the face of a cat, and he flies through the air cos' he's got a catface, catface!
16:13:50 <boily> but, I have unlimited coffee and there's a fire in the hearth.
16:19:02 <boily> how's life on your end? not too cold today?
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16:35:01 <metasepia> KATL 021618Z 22005KT 1 1/2SM BR OVC005 09/08 A2987 RMK AO2 SFC VIS 5 RAE04 P0001
16:56:18 <metasepia> ESSA 021650Z 15009KT 9999 BKN020 04/00 Q1009 R01L/29//95 R08/25//95 R01R/29//95 NOSIG
16:57:05 <boily> how dare you all having over-zero temperatures?
16:59:14 <metasepia> LOWI 021650Z VRB02KT 9999 FEW060 BKN070 OVC100 03/M01 Q1012 R08/19//95 NOSIG
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17:03:26 <quintopia> is it just my browser rendering wrong, or does the funciton page contain a smaller second copy of the entire page embedded near the end of it
17:09:55 <int-e> on the wiki? the page looks normal here.
17:12:16 <quintopia> it rendered right when i closed the tab and reopened it
17:14:35 <boily> quintopia's being haunted by poltertabs.
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17:39:14 <metasepia> EFHK 021720Z 12011KT 9999 BKN017 00/M03 Q1017 NOSIG
17:39:30 <fizzie> Yay, barely made it to the over-zero club.
17:39:38 <boily> meanwhile, THE AUNTS ARE COMING!
17:42:04 <int-e> are they joining the green table?
17:43:00 <boily> no. the Green Table is Mine.
17:44:29 <fizzie> 'tis the season for aunts, I guess.
17:44:39 <quintopia> can i be a knight of the green table?
17:45:20 <boily> Sir Quintopia de la Vertable, serving under Fizzie, King of the Flying Wizard Dogs.
17:52:24 <kmc> int-e: thanks
18:19:28 <kmc> https://defuse.ca/bochs-hacking-guide.htm guide to hacking Bochs, including adding new instructions and registers
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18:26:07 <metasepia> The Royal Naval Sailing Association is the governing body that oversees all aspects of sailing, both racing and recreational sailing cruises, throughout the British Royal Navy.
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18:53:41 <Phantom_Hoover> iirc on xchat you fix this by entering your password in the 'server password' form rather than 'nickserv password'
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18:54:34 <Sorella> Phantom_Hoover, ah, yeah. I moved from ERC to XChat yesterday and didn't configure it yet
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18:56:08 <Bike> don't be ridiculous, phǟntom
18:56:39 <Sorella> Are there programs that don't do that automatically these days?
18:59:25 <boily> Bike: that's one nice diacrḯtic stack.
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19:03:00 <boily> TIL you can have above-dot and macron on a letter. we live in a Good Universe.
19:03:28 <Bike> http://arxiv.org/abs/1312.7128 adventures in tenure
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19:29:51 <fizzie> "No time travelers were discovered." Sad.
19:31:21 <boily> “Hungarumlaut... [citation needed” ← also sad. that words need to be officially homologated.
19:31:31 <fizzie> "Requests for Time Travelers to Issue a Prescient Internet Communication" ha, nobody's going to answer that one, they'd be nabbed by the Time Cops for sure.
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19:37:20 <int-e> boily: to answer your earlier question about the topic, I would say that it is in TURMOIL.
19:37:35 <fizzie> "Hashtagging -- labeling Internet content with terms beginning with a "#" -- originated on the Internet in the Internet Relay Chat (IRC) channels, --" weeeel.
19:37:49 <boily> int-e: but why so much TROUBLE? I mean, such a PEACEFUL topic...
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19:39:50 <int-e> boily: http://cryptome.org/2014/01/nsa-codenames.htm HTH
19:40:23 <kmc> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fc/NSA_SURLYSPAWN.jpg
19:40:39 <kmc> uh don't click that link if you work for the US government or ever intend to get a security clearance
19:41:18 <Bike> ...is that a real one or is it from the generator
19:41:23 <Bike> stupid future.
19:41:24 <kmc> real i think
19:41:30 <kmc> one of the scarier things about this spy gadget catalog is that the stuff in it is at least 7 years old
19:42:40 <kmc> they put an ARM processor, 100 MB of storage, and an FPGA in a package the size of a penny... at the same time the original iPhone was being developed
19:42:50 <Bike> http://www.nytimes.com/books/97/03/23/lifetimes/asi-v-fair.html Happy 2014, also
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19:43:53 <kmc> developing this stuff must be such a fun job if you ignore all the parts that aren't
19:44:30 <int-e> I like this sentence. "Windows need be no more than an archaic touch."
19:44:40 <LinearInterpol> kmc: I'm not surprised. FPGAs have been around for a looooooong time, and building a low-cost, low-power, small-as-fuck one wasn't hard years ago.
19:45:05 <LinearInterpol> all comes down to how many logic elements it has, and you can do a lot with a few of them.
19:45:11 <kmc> indeed they used a commercially available one
19:45:38 <Jafet> kmc: http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/nasa-gets-two-military-spy-telescopes-for-astronomy/2012/06/04/gJQAsT6UDV_print.html
19:45:51 <kmc> xilinx i think, but i'd have to look it up
19:46:03 <kmc> Jafet: yeah that was pretty cool
19:46:15 <Bike> fuck xilinx tools grr grr grr
19:46:32 <LinearInterpol> and the fact that they dumped the waveform simulator in like quartus 9.
19:46:43 <Bike> "The appliances of 2014 will have no electric cords, of course, for they will be powered by long- lived batteries running on radioisotopes."
19:47:54 <int-e> that's good, astonishingly close.
19:48:23 <int-e> (the asimov thing)
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19:48:51 <Bike> futurolgy is always fun like this. predicts self-driving cars in development, but also flying cars
19:49:15 <Bike> also moving sidewalks. why would anyone want moving sidewalks?
19:49:20 <LinearInterpol> there was a story I remember that asimov wrote that was friggin' awesome.
19:49:48 <int-e> Bike: see airports. but they are too high maintenance for outdoor areas.
19:50:29 <Bike> "In 2014, there is every likelihood that the world population will be 6,500,000,000 and the population of the United States will be 350,000,000. Boston-to-Washington, the most crowded area of its size on the earth, will have become a single city with a population of over 40,000,000." hey, slick.
19:50:45 <Bike> int-e: are those really sidewalks? i mean, you don't stop at storefronts on the way.
19:51:35 <int-e> Bike: they are not, but the idea is the same, speeding up walking by steping on some moving strip
19:51:57 <Bike> «The 2014 fair will feature an Algae Bar at which "mock-turkey" and "pseudosteak" will be served.» hell yeah motherfucers
19:52:32 <mauke> pfft, I read a story with algae farms that took place in 1992
19:53:34 <Bike> "Not all the world's population will enjoy the gadgety world of the future to the full. A larger portion than today will be deprived and although they may be better off, materially, than today, they will be further behind when compared with the advanced portions of the world. They will have moved backward, relatively."
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19:59:16 <int-e> on the other hand, communication is satellite based rather than cell based.
19:59:41 <shachaf> delicious Jacobs Orange Club, Penguin, and Jaffa Cake
20:01:25 <boily> how many hexhamites are left?
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20:43:14 <boily> “hot young tech wizard”. he he he.
20:43:34 <kmc> pinball wizard
20:45:45 <fizzie> Huh, there's an Epic Pinball remake on the iThings (called "Retro Pinball").
20:55:48 <mauke> http://youtu.be/XvdpjZYLumw
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20:59:08 <fizzie> Based on their name, I was expecting more ukulele.
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21:10:50 <kmc> boily: oh, missed that it's asimov
21:12:12 <Taneb> shachaf, what am I attending to?
21:12:35 <boily> shachaf: what are you tanebbing again?
21:12:52 <kmc> http://www.nytimes.com/books/97/03/23/lifetimes/asi-v-fair.html
21:13:05 <kmc> sorry, that was meant to be "Bike:"
21:13:36 * boily is now known as a Bike-proxy
21:15:42 <ais523> boily: is that when you ride on an exercise bike, and it's remotely connected to the handlebars and pedals of a real bike somewhere out there in, say, the streets of London
21:16:16 <ais523> with a camera that keeps track of where it's going, so you get a view from the bike
21:16:36 <ais523> I'm not sure what this technology is useful yet, but it sounds like an intereting idea
21:18:13 <fizzie> I believe there are things for rendering a virtual environment you can exercise-bike through.
21:18:17 <boily> being a courier is a dangerous job. with remote-controlled bikes, this removes almost all possibilities of grievous bodily harm.
21:18:22 <fizzie> It sounds like a high-fidelity version of that.
21:18:44 <boily> besides, because it's made of bikes, it's eco-friendly and keeps you in shape!
21:18:44 <ais523> I like boily's idea better
21:19:02 <ais523> but I doubt it's that eco-friendly
21:19:10 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: They could offer a feature where the customer gets to drive the bike.
21:19:17 <ais523> you won't generate much electricity on the exercise bike, not really enough to offset the needs of the bike drone
21:19:19 <fizzie> Would be far better than reloading the package status tracking page.
21:19:25 <kmc> that sounds like something from Black Mirror
21:19:40 * boily raps on Bike with a maple stick
21:19:43 <fizzie> Actually, they could do that for their quadcopter delivery things, I think that'd be enormously popular.
21:19:59 <fizzie> (Plus no need to build fancy software to fly.)
21:20:25 <ais523> fizzie: they'd almost certainly be flown into buildings and each other and the like
21:20:27 <ais523> or used to spy on people
21:20:30 <kmc> I wanted to build a bike drone
21:20:34 <kmc> that is, a robot bike
21:21:26 <fizzie> ais523: Perhaps they'd offer it only when their heuristics say the object being ordered is so desirable, the person controlling it will be extra careful.
21:21:43 <fizzie> (And also fly it straight home without dallying around.)
21:22:10 <fizzie> Are there many autonomous two-wheeled devices?
21:22:28 <fizzie> Or autonomous unicycles, for that matter.
21:22:32 <Taneb> shachaf, something relevant for Hexhamites
21:22:55 <shachaf> Taneb: oh, jaffa cakes and things
21:23:15 <Taneb> I don't really like jaffa cakes
21:23:20 <ais523> the Taneb/shachaf conversation looks weird even if you read scrollback
21:23:50 <Taneb> ais523, this is #esoteric, it's practically weird by definition
21:23:54 <kmc> autonomous unicycle might be easier
21:24:09 <ais523> kmc: something I wanted to invent was a self-balancing unicycle
21:24:13 <ais523> that didn't require any skill from the rider
21:24:19 <fizzie> There was a "100 unicycle collision avoidance 2" video in youtube, but I can't tell what I'm looking at. It's just a bunch of wireframe circles.
21:24:21 <ais523> you could just sit on it motionless and it would stay upright
21:24:26 <Taneb> I still need to learn to ride the unicycle
21:24:48 <fizzie> (Also some actual unicycle robots.)
21:24:51 <boily> http://youtu.be/LdjY6oy4Y2c
21:25:24 <mroman> ais523: So... you wanted to invent a *boring* unicycle?
21:25:44 <ais523> mroman: well, the unicycle itself would be interesting; riding it would be boring, though
21:25:53 <fizzie> ais523: There was a video of that, actually.
21:26:08 <fizzie> ais523: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DT8F7fRV5fc I don't know if it's a real thing or not.
21:26:32 <fizzie> I guess you might have wanted something you still pedal.
21:26:45 <fizzie> That one's just basically a unicycle segway.
21:27:21 <ais523> nah, I think I prefer a unicycle segway
21:27:31 <ais523> btw, some engineers at Google tried to show me a Segway once but it wasn't working
21:27:59 <ais523> that one isn't nearly as tall as I wanted, though
21:28:29 <fizzie> There's also the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U3-X but that's pretty similar.
21:30:29 <fizzie> "An error has occurred while searching: Pool queue is full" I don't think Wikipedia search has given me that before.
21:31:12 <fizzie> "EcoBoomer Co., Ltd. Is A Leading Manufacturer Of Self-Balancing Electric Human Transporters, E-Bikes, & Electric Unicycles" fancy, a leading electric unicycle manufacturer.
21:31:39 <fizzie> "Joining the likes of the eniCycle, Solowheel and SBU, we now have the LED-light-strip-adorned EcoBoomer iGo."
21:31:44 <fizzie> There's like a whole pile of them.
21:31:46 <shachaf> Taneb: I can't tell whether I like jaffa cakes.
21:31:54 <shachaf> There's so much mystique surrounding them that it's difficult to tell.
21:32:27 <mroman> I'd want a self-balancing bike
21:32:41 <mroman> with two wheels and all
21:33:28 <mroman> although I'm not sure if you can steer with it then
21:33:55 <mroman> but it would be cool for like front breaks
21:34:02 <mroman> sort of like an ABS system for bikes
21:34:20 <Bike> inverse pendulums are quite something.
21:34:52 <fizzie> There was a self-balancing electric bike in the search results when I was looking for the unicycles.
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21:37:50 <kmc> i've wanted a solowheel for so long
21:37:55 <mroman> fizzie: Why do they think that a self balancing bike is useful?
21:38:00 <fizzie> "Some people would just say this is magic, but it's really gyroscopes."
21:38:19 <kmc> http://www.marriedtothesea.com/033107/gyroscopes.gif
21:38:25 <mroman> It practically really balances itself without any actual self-balancing stuff
21:38:28 <kmc> ecoboomer looks pretty stupid
21:38:42 <kmc> it looks like a rideable toilet
21:39:00 <fizzie> mroman: Well, it's not really a "bike", it's got thing you sit in and all. Basically, it's like taking a tiny car and trying to make it even smaller.
21:39:09 <fizzie> kmc: Perhaps they could integrate that functionality in.
21:39:16 <kmc> could even be a power source
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21:40:16 <Bike> "self-balancing electric transporters" i see i'm getting sidelined here :<
21:40:33 <Bike> http://www.thegreenhead.com/imgs/ecoboomer-igo-self-balancing-electric-unicycle-7.jpg wow, it /does/ look like a toilet.
21:40:45 <kmc> Bike: did you see the video of swarm quadcopters throwing inverted pendulums?
21:41:04 <kmc> "does it look like a toilet" should be on every consumer product design checklist
21:41:24 <kmc> but yeah those quadcopters were so cute
21:41:34 <kmc> the way they do a little dance to stabilize when they catch the pole
21:41:47 <kmc> and a 360° flip after they toss it
21:42:26 <LinearInterpol> http://nsnbc.me/2013/12/30/tepco-quietly-admits-reactor-3-melting-now/
21:43:46 <elliott> google "nsnbc" and tell me that's a legit news organisation
21:44:02 <elliott> okay the sources might be right
21:44:05 <fizzie> kmc: They also sounded like angry bees in at least the one video I saw.
21:44:07 <Bike> “Persons residing on the west coast of North America should IMMEDIATELY begin preparing for another possible onslaught of dangerous atmospheric radiation from the Fukushima nuclear disaster site in Japan.”
21:44:18 <kmc> yeah the steam is reported by other news orgs
21:44:20 <mroman> or one of those funky new domains?
21:44:33 <ais523> mroman: it's intended for personal websites, I think
21:44:37 <Bike> It's Montenegro.
21:45:06 <fizzie> All those countries with "good" ccTLDs must be p. happy they can repurpose them for whatever.
21:45:16 <kmc> apparently i'm supposed to cover every part of my house with plastic
21:45:21 <kmc> and "Wash obsessively"
21:45:25 <fizzie> Tonga, the country of URL shorteners (.to) and so on.
21:45:31 <Bike> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Domainme.png
21:45:41 <elliott> can someone link me a non-stupid report on this :/
21:45:51 <Bike> this article is really bad.
21:45:54 <kmc> http://www.tepco.co.jp/nu-news/2013/1233248_5304.html
21:46:06 <kmc> http://gizmodo.com/radioactive-mystery-steam-over-fukushima-could-mean-ano-1492280971
21:46:25 <Vorpal> I got a 50% off Crusader Kings II Steam coupon thingy for some reason. Just showed up in my steam inventory just now if anyone is interested. I already own the game from some bundle or other.
21:46:53 <kmc> "[Tepco via The Ecologist via Fark]" i hate the future
21:47:00 <Bike> hm, i see "93 Bq/L" in here
21:48:20 <elliott> TEPCO will probably be stupid on the other end of the scale :V
21:48:21 <fizzie> Vorpal: They sometimes do a "give a X% off coupon for game A to everyone who owns game B"; I got a "random" 20% off Velocity Ultra for owning Stealth Bastard Deluxe.
21:48:23 <Vorpal> I also have two 20% off "Velocity Ultra", and two 10% off "Toki Tori 2". Not interested in either. Again, if anyone is interested in that or the Crusaders King II one...
21:48:32 <elliott> "widely apologize for the great inconvenience and worry Regarding that you have, I would like apologize from the bottom of my heart. "
21:48:53 <fizzie> Vorpal: Yes. I guess you might've owned Hotline Miami too?
21:49:03 <fizzie> (They gave another 20% off coupon for people owning that.)
21:50:43 <Vorpal> fizzie, so you are not interested in any of those?
21:51:13 <fizzie> Not really. I can't seem to manage to really play even the games I have. (Though I have been catching up over the holiday season.)
21:51:53 <Vorpal> fizzie, I can strongly recommend Brothers: A Tale of Two Sons if you haven't played it. My game of the year easily.
21:52:03 <Vorpal> fizzie, you do need a game pad though
21:52:50 <Vorpal> fizzie, would be nice if you could trade those coupons, like those silly trading cards and what not...
21:53:01 <fizzie> You can trade them, you just can't market them.
21:53:08 <Vorpal> Err, yeah that is what I meant
21:53:41 <Vorpal> How does one trade stuff btw? I see no button here for it
21:53:45 <fizzie> I think Steam forums have quite a lot of threads about people looking to trade their X% off coupons for something they actually want.
21:53:57 <fizzie> There's a "trade offers" button at top of the inventory.
21:54:05 <fizzie> You can make offers from there.
21:54:11 <Vorpal> Thing is, I currently don't want to buy anything
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21:54:46 <Vorpal> I have way too many unplayed games, plus I have some issues with my wrists (possibly carpal tunnel), meaning I keep gaming to a minimum
21:54:57 <fizzie> I traded one (1) Holiday Coal coal to one (1) Holiday Coal back when they were doing the coal thing, because you got something for having a trade.
21:55:22 <Vorpal> I never use the social features of steam really
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21:55:56 <fizzie> Also sold all the snow globe cards from community choice voting, because they'd evaporate soon, and I don't think I would've gotten the full set of 10 anyway.
21:56:21 <Vorpal> I have been "offline" in the friends menu since day one. Never played a multiplayer game through steam that actually used steam for it. (Unlike, say, Terraria, which afair did it like minecraft, just input the server IP)
21:57:01 <fizzie> I kind of like seeing the "X is now playing Y" notices from one of my many (5) Steam Friends. For no particular reason.
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21:57:16 <fizzie> They're all IRL friends, though. I guess it's some kind of stalking instinct.
21:58:00 <Vorpal> I don't have IRL friends who I play *computer* games with.
21:58:28 <fizzie> Oh, I don't play games with these people, as a general rule. I just like to see what they're up to.
21:58:43 <fizzie> (With a single exception of playing through the Portal 2 co-op thing with one of them.)
21:58:45 <Vorpal> Yeah, my friends list on steam is empty
21:59:00 <ais523> I don't even use Steam
21:59:27 <fizzie> Everyone on my friend list has more Steam XP than I do, I think.
21:59:52 <Vorpal> fizzie, I don't really play much multiplayer at all... Minecraft, Terraria and FlightGear are the only ones I ever play(ed) multiplayer regularly in. A few other ones I tried a few times, but "meh"
22:00:01 <ais523> Steam have implemented an arbitrary number that you need to pay them money to increase?
22:00:17 <Vorpal> what the hell is steam xp
22:00:32 <fizzie> ais523: You don't need to pay money. Though I think some ways to increment the number involve money.
22:00:42 <fizzie> ais523: Mostly it's about using the community features, I think.
22:00:47 <ais523> fizzie: well you presumably need to play Steam games for most methods of increasing it
22:00:48 <fizzie> Vorpal: It's what determines your Steam Level.
22:01:13 <fizzie> Vorpal: It's a number. See, it's like a RPG. You collect some exp, you gain levels.
22:01:26 <fizzie> Community choice voting requires a minimum Steam level, too.
22:01:30 <kmc> gamify gaming
22:01:35 <Vorpal> fizzie, I completely missed that
22:01:37 <Bike> world aghast as for-profit gaming service implements for-profit games
22:01:43 <Vorpal> fizzie, does it? Oh well
22:01:53 <Vorpal> I don't give a shit though
22:02:30 <Vorpal> Huh there are achievements for steam itself? "Pillar of community, 13/26"
22:02:33 <fizzie> ais523: That's probably true, admittedly. But I don't think people buy games for the purpose of playing them because of the Steam XP, I guess.
22:02:36 <Vorpal> Or what the hell is this
22:02:43 <fizzie> Vorpal: They're for crafting "badges".
22:02:48 <ais523> fizzie: /someone/ probably does
22:02:55 <fizzie> I believe that's the main way of getting XP.
22:03:01 <ais523> there are people who buy xbox games just for easy achievements
22:03:10 <fizzie> The card drops are tied into that, too.
22:03:14 <ais523> and people who make games specifically so that those people will buy them
22:03:19 <Bike> consumers gonna consume
22:03:23 <fizzie> (When you get a full set, you can craft a badge, and that nets some XP.)
22:03:29 <Vorpal> fizzie, seems I have some of those. Oh well, don't really care
22:04:12 <fizzie> I seem to have 16/26 of the Pillar of Community tasks done.
22:04:17 <Vorpal> I hate achievements. Usually it is either just "got to point x in story" or it is like "did stupid thing that doesn't make sense in the plot of the game"
22:04:45 <ais523> I think the latter sort of achievement makes sense, so long as you view it as an optional goal to aim for when you're aware of what it is
22:04:55 <ais523> rather than as something you're meant to get in normal play
22:05:08 <Vorpal> I'm sure there are exceptions, but I can't think of any. Possibly with the exception of The Stanley Parable. Where the achievements pokes fun at achievements
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22:06:03 <fizzie> I think I could do most of these missing tasks, there's things like "set a profile background".
22:06:15 <fizzie> "Use a Steam Emoticon in chat" I'd do that, but I don't know how.
22:06:20 <Vorpal> fizzie, would you do it just for a badge?
22:06:33 <elliott> http://esolang-book.route477.net/ https://github.com/yhara/esolang-book-website
22:07:08 <fizzie> Vorpal: I don't know. I guess I might? I do have a mild case of "can't help myself" when it comes to achievement-y things.
22:07:44 <fizzie> Though I think it might make more sense to make those badges tie to e.g. completing all achievements in the game; then they'd at least have something to do with the game in question.
22:08:19 <Vorpal> ais523, I think doing a silly thing like riding a horse up a near vertical cliff in skyrim is a reward in and of itself, due to the induced laughing from the glitching horse (also that specific one has no achivement afaik, it was just an example of a silly thing)
22:08:24 <ais523> fizzie: many games are near-impossible to get all the achievements in
22:08:33 <elliott> Bike: I thought the existence of a physical esolangs book might interest.
22:08:39 -!- oerjan has joined.
22:08:57 <ais523> elliott: is it just one of those books that's autogenerated from Wikipedia in the hope that someone buys it?
22:09:04 <ais523> or did someone actually write it?
22:09:08 <Vorpal> ais523, I guess I could see the point of things like "ghosted the entire Deux Ex" or some achievement like that, awarded at the end of the game
22:09:17 <fizzie> ais523: Yes, well, that's why they could make some kind of a reward for it. Currently Steam just says something like "good job", and that's it.
22:09:25 <elliott> no. translation services exist that can answer such questions equally well but more efficiently than I can
22:09:32 <elliott> I would say "Google Translate" but I suspect you have a moral objection to using it..
22:09:43 <Vorpal> ais523, that is genuine bragging rights to some degree. Most achivements are not.
22:10:05 <elliott> the new edition is coming out on the 7th, seemingly
22:10:09 -!- Bike_ has joined.
22:10:10 <Bike_> watching #esoteric complain about a formalization of doing weird things in games is amusing
22:10:13 <ais523> elliott: I asked the question before I followed the link
22:10:15 <fizzie> Ohhh! "Steam Emoticons" are not the regular emoticons you can use.
22:10:35 <fizzie> "Emoticons are dropped when crafting trading cards and are tradable."
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22:10:48 <fizzie> Apparently you have to get an emoticon drop before you can use it in a conversation.
22:10:50 <Vorpal> sorry for the language... but...
22:10:58 <fizzie> I don't know if it's a one-time-use or if you "unlock" it for all time.
22:11:07 <ais523> `addquote <fizzie> "Emoticons are dropped when crafting trading cards and are tradable."
22:11:10 <fizzie> It is kind of hilarious.
22:11:11 <HackEgo> 1154) <fizzie> "Emoticons are dropped when crafting trading cards and are tradable."
22:11:26 <Vorpal> fizzie, this is like a bad TCG
22:11:38 <ais523> I don't know of a TCG where the cards are craftable
22:11:41 <Vorpal> It doesn't have any gameplay *except* from getting the card
22:11:45 <fizzie> "Emoticons are little symbols or pictures given to a user once they have crafted a badge. Emoticons are used in Steam Chat, either by typing the shortcut to that emoticon (which is surrounded by colons - for example, :crate: for the Team Fortress 2 crate emoticon), or by selecting the image from the selection box of emoticons.
22:11:50 <fizzie> A few basic emoticons are included in Steam that everyone can access, but most are only available if you own the emoticon (which is an item stored in your Steam inventory.) Anyone can see an emoticon that you've used in a message to them even if they don't own the emoticon themselves.
22:11:55 <fizzie> Emoticons come in 3 rarities: common, uncommon and rare. You can receive an emoticon of any rarity when you craft a badge, but the higher the level of badge that you craft, the greater the chances that you'll receive an uncommon or rare badge."
22:11:58 <Vorpal> ais523, you can craft by destroying enough other cards to get dust or something like that
22:11:59 <fizzie> There's even three levels of rarities.
22:12:08 <Vorpal> ais523, wouldn't work in a non-digital TCG of course
22:12:39 <Vorpal> fizzie, very much TCG mechanics
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22:14:00 <fizzie> I don't have the "make a trade" task marked as done, I must've done that coal-for-coal thing before the badges were a thing.
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22:14:57 <Vorpal> fizzie, seems I got some cards from playing garry's mod at some point.
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22:15:08 <Vorpal> Is that separate from crafting?
22:15:21 <Vorpal> How *do* you craft on steam
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22:15:32 <fizzie> Vorpal: You get a couple (three, four?) for pretty much any card-enabled game just by playing it.
22:15:54 <Vorpal> fizzie, also it says I have the pillar of community thing but it also says it isn't completed on another page
22:15:57 <fizzie> Or, rather, you're eligible for that many initially, and they drop pretty quickly; if you spend a couple of hours in-game, you'll probably get all those.
22:15:57 <Vorpal> not sure how that works
22:16:05 <fizzie> Vorpal: There's different levels of Pillar of Community.
22:16:41 <fizzie> X out of 26 for level 1 (I've got that too); 22 of 26 for level 2; presumably 26/26 for level 3 or something.
22:16:45 <Vorpal> fizzie, nah it says "Complete 14 of 26 Steam Community tasks to earn the Level 1 badge." and I have 13
22:16:59 <Vorpal> fizzie, maybe they added more stuff in later?
22:17:17 <fizzie> Are you sure you have it? Incomplete ones are also listed on the "badges" page.
22:17:18 <Vorpal> And I had enough earlier
22:17:31 <Vorpal> I went to Badges and clicked "completed"
22:17:32 <fizzie> That could also be the case.
22:17:41 <Vorpal> Surely that would only list completed ones
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22:18:01 <fizzie> I guess they might've been adding more tasks.
22:18:05 <Vorpal> fizzie, it doesn't say when I unlocked it, or what level it is at
22:18:35 <fizzie> It says "Unlocked: 14 Nov, 2013 @ 12:25am" for my level 1 in the "completed" list.
22:18:52 <fizzie> Well, it doesn't explicitly say "level 1" anywhere, just that I need to do 22/26 for level 2.
22:18:58 <Vorpal> fizzie, well I would have gotten it way earlier than this year if I unlocked it
22:19:05 <Vorpal> haven't done much on steam the last year or so
22:19:58 <fizzie> Anyway, I don't really know how you get more cards than the ones you're initially eligible for. AIUI, you'll get "booster packs" (another TCG term there) randomly, as soon as you keep logging in to Steam, but I don't think I've ever gotten one.
22:20:27 <fizzie> I think in general to actually craft badges you're supposed to trade cards you don't want, or something.
22:20:40 <fizzie> Or perhaps (more likely) buy them on the market, because Valve gets a cut.
22:20:41 -!- iamcal has joined.
22:21:03 <fizzie> They're all selling for something like 0.04-0.10€/card.
22:21:25 <Vorpal> fizzie, it is pretty terrible. Yet people seem to want to do it, since I sold the stuff I got when voting on the sale this time around, and most got sold within half an hour
22:21:42 <ais523> the fact that this business model is even viable hurts my head
22:21:50 <fizzie> The number of random booster packs generated depends on the number of badges crafted, and I guess I don't really pay "popular" games.
22:22:15 <Vorpal> ais523, well I doubt it would stand on it's own. They sell the games too. That is probably a much larger income source than people trading cards.
22:22:18 <fizzie> ais523: I don't think they've released any statistics, but I suppose it's all just extra icing on top of their "actual business" of selling games.
22:23:06 -!- upgrayeddd has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
22:23:08 <fizzie> "Summing up all the sales data resulted in stunning numbers that I want to share with you: In the past year (since dec'12) there was a trade volume of ~$38.9 million shared on ~58.0 million transactions. Valve gets 15% of each market sale, so nearly $6 million for doing nothing but letting steam users sell millions of items."
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22:23:28 <Vorpal> Holy crap, there are 19 DLC for Saints Row 4 already. That game isn't all that old
22:23:29 <fizzie> Well, I guess that's a reasonably large number.
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22:23:50 <Vorpal> Totalling, *when on 60% sale* 31.02 EUR
22:24:15 <fizzie> Vorpal: Hey, that's nothing compared to TS2014 DLC or something.
22:24:28 <Vorpal> TrainSimulator I *expect* that sort of thing from
22:24:50 <fizzie> 2379.53 EUR for all TS2014 DLC.
22:24:58 <fizzie> (Wonder how many people have bought all of it.)
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22:25:05 <Vorpal> I much preferred the model of base game followed half a year or more down the line with a big expansion pack
22:25:07 -!- HaliteTablet has joined.
22:25:15 <Vorpal> fizzie, very few I hope
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22:25:55 <Vorpal> fizzie, I would guess that most people just get the couple of trains they are really interested in and so on
22:26:20 <fizzie> Vorpal: There's a "Not Recommended | 1,423.0 hrs on record" review on the TS2014 store page; most comments are to the tune of "didn't like but played over a thousand hours???". (It's from someone who dislikes the new upgrade; Steam counts playtime of older versions in there.)
22:27:09 <Vorpal> fizzie, well normally I would say that person is well qualified to give an opinion
22:27:19 <Vorpal> Unlike the guy who played 5 minutes
22:27:25 -!- iamcal has joined.
22:27:42 <Vorpal> Probably over-qualified even
22:29:00 <Vorpal> This game (got from some recent indie bundle) has a terrible name in my steam game list: "AaaaaAAaaaAAAaaAAAAaAAAAA!!! for the Awesome"
22:29:02 <fizzie> I guess two kiloeuros isn't very much money to put in a hobby in the end, anyway; people sure waste a lot more than that.
22:29:34 <fizzie> I've got Aaaa[...] too; it was in the most recent "PC and Android" bundle I bought mostly for Gemini Rue, Little Inferno and maybe Bard's Tale.
22:29:50 <Vorpal> fizzie, well yeah, if you get into photography you can easily top that
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22:30:36 <Vorpal> fizzie, I got Bard's Tale from some earlier bundle iirc. Kind of funny I guess, but that humor doesn't really click with me. Too childish a lot of the time
22:30:59 <elliott> welp, http://esolangs.org/wiki/Ruby%E3%81%A7%E4%BD%9C%E3%82%8B%E5%A5%87%E5%A6%99%E3%81%AA%E3%83%97%E3%83%AD%E3%82%B0%E3%83%A9%E3%83%9F%E3%83%B3%E3%82%B0%E8%A8%80%E8%AA%9E
22:31:14 <elliott> come on Chrome, did you really have to escape that whole thing? :/
22:31:34 <Vorpal> elliott, heh my font fails at that on the page. Works in the title bar though
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22:31:54 <Vorpal> I thought it was supposed to fall back to another font if it failed to find the glyph??
22:32:13 <fizzie> Vorpal: Yes, it didn't really impress very much so far.
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22:32:27 <elliott> the book is only $27 if you preorder it, by the way!
22:32:37 <elliott> ...plus shipping from Japan
22:32:46 <elliott> you can also buy a PDF if you are boring
22:32:58 <Vorpal> elliott, not free shipping?
22:33:19 <elliott> from Japan? I kind of doubt it.
22:33:30 <shachaf> i ordered something from japan once
22:33:44 <Vorpal> shachaf, were you expecting that?
22:33:53 <shachaf> but i still couldn't read it
22:34:08 <fizzie> Vorpal: Incidentally, apparently a 10% of all Steam market trading card sales goes to the game developer, and only 5% to Valve (forming the 15% cut that doesn't go to the seller).
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22:34:20 <Vorpal> shachaf, IIRC google translate has some sort of OCR mode in the android app for it
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22:34:54 <Vorpal> fizzie, except for the sale cards, which go all to steam I expect?
22:34:58 <monotone> Google Translate's performance on Japanese itself isn't that great to begin with...
22:35:24 <fizzie> Vorpal: Well, I guess Valve counts as the "developer" of the holiday sale.
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22:36:07 <Vorpal> monotone, Norwegian -> Swedish (which should be fairly easily you think, since the languages are quite closely related) was pretty bad. It kept inserting negations in random sentences, changing the meaning completely of the text.
22:36:08 <fizzie> Vorpal: But at least the developers get something out of it too. (Though maybe that's just an incentive to put trading card support in their game. Though I guess Valve might give them other incentives too.)
22:36:27 <fizzie> Vorpal: It probably goes Norwegian -> English -> Swedish for that.
22:37:11 <fizzie> Chinese-to-English tends to be quite bad too.
22:37:27 <Vorpal> fizzie, the support consists of creating some cards and dropping them when a play time counter reached a certain value?
22:37:30 <Taneb> Anything -> Latin is awful
22:37:38 <monotone> Yeah, a lot of machine translation systems use English as an intermediate language.
22:38:09 <fizzie> Vorpal: Possibly only the former; the latter might well be a built-in feature of the Steam overlay.
22:38:26 <Vorpal> fizzie, But I have the overlay turned off, and I still got some cards
22:38:46 <fizzie> Well, the Steam client, then. It knows when you're in-game, anyway.
22:39:11 <fizzie> The card images probably come from the game developers, at least.
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22:39:16 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm that would be interesting for skyrim. I usually launch that with the script extended thingy instead, SKSE
22:39:23 <Vorpal> Don't think steam is 100% aware of that
22:39:40 <Vorpal> I really do not like the overlay. I do not want to see achivements pop up in the corner and breaking my immersion in games where immersion is a key factor
22:39:42 <fizzie> I get the Steam overlay even when launching via NMM + SKSE.
22:40:00 -!- HaliteTablet has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
22:40:04 <fizzie> (I don't really know how it all works.)
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22:40:20 <Vorpal> yeah I guess steam *does* need to be running for it to work so yeah
22:40:32 <fizzie> Part of that DRM and all.
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22:40:51 <Vorpal> fizzie, I preferred the oblivion way: Have the CD mounted.
22:41:08 <Vorpal> Of course for convenience you just use an image file and mount it as a CD
22:41:23 <Vorpal> So that is easily bypassed
22:41:45 <fizzie> Wonder if I should sell my Skyrim trading cards, it's not like I'll ever be completing any of these sets.
22:42:28 <Vorpal> Yeah I try to buy games on gog.com instead. Much better customer service, DRM free, and usually include at least some extras such as extra printed materials or sound track as well
22:42:50 <Vorpal> fizzie, I should probably sell all my trading cards. All 5.
22:42:52 -!- _46bit_ has joined.
22:43:03 <fizzie> Some of them sell for really little.
22:43:09 <fizzie> (Incidentally, do you happen to know if you can use Steam Wallet money to deduct from the price of a regular Steam purchase?)
22:43:19 <Vorpal> 0.05 EUR for one of the garry's mod ones
22:43:29 <Vorpal> fizzie, yeah it happens automatically
22:43:57 <fizzie> Good. Though I guess it might take quite a while before I buy something again in Steam.
22:44:31 <Vorpal> Wow, 0.04 EUR for one of the cards from the summer holiday sale. Seems those are still valid though unlike the cards for this sale, which will soon be invalid. Hm
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22:44:55 <fizzie> I seem to have 19 trading cards (4x Deponia, 4x McPixel, 4x Scribblenauts, 3x Super Meat Boy, 4x Skyrim).
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22:45:14 <fizzie> Assuming an average of 0.05 EUR, that'd mean... almost a whole euro!
22:45:31 <Vorpal> I have 5 from playing games, and 7 from the summer sale
22:45:44 <Vorpal> fizzie, the game ones I have are worth a bit more
22:46:00 <Vorpal> The portal 2 one 0.1 EUR
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22:46:43 <Vorpal> fizzie, The "missing textures" one from GM looks pretty nice though. Pink and black chess board pattern
22:46:59 <Vorpal> It sticks out like a sore thumb in the steam inventory
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22:48:07 <fizzie> Well, Deponia cards sell for 0.10 EUR, McPixel for 0.03-0.05 EUR, Scribblenauts for 0.05-0.06 EUR, Super Meat Boy for... ooh, 0.13 EUR (!), and Skyrim for 0.11-0.12 EUR or so.
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22:48:53 <Vorpal> fizzie, do you have to trade something in both directions for a trade?
22:48:54 <fizzie> So I might get up to 1.5 EUR from selling all of them. Even better. I'll be swimming in virtual money soon.
22:48:59 <Vorpal> If I want to get rid of the coupons
22:49:07 <Vorpal> I just want to give them away really
22:49:13 <fizzie> I think you can do a unidirectional trade, but not sure.
22:49:33 <kmc> when I try to use Google Translate to find out what the Japanese cat cafés are saying, it's always nonsense
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22:49:42 <kmc> maybe they use too many cat puns though
22:50:18 <fizzie> Vorpal: Though I don't know, because giftability is a separately tracked thing, and a unidirectional trade is pretty close to a gift. (Without the gift-y trappings, though.)
22:50:29 <Vorpal> fizzie, what trappings?
22:50:42 <kmc> gif-ability
22:50:45 <shachaf> i think that is not japanese but cat
22:50:47 <kmc> they're nya-ing at least
22:50:48 <fizzie> Vorpal: I think you can send it as a fancy email message or something?
22:50:53 <fizzie> Vorpal: I don't know, I've never gotten a Steam gift.
22:51:32 <fizzie> kmc: When I try to use GT to find out what my (Finnish) friend is saying (in Chinese, at his Weibo microblog), it's quite often nonsense too.
22:51:51 <shachaf> kmc: have you considered being a cat when you grow up
22:51:51 <Vorpal> fizzie, heh, the price for the summer sale trading cards all went up marginally around the start of the current sale.
22:51:58 <kmc> shachaf: yes
22:52:09 <kmc> shachaf: i tried the Necomimi mind-reading motorized cat ears
22:52:10 <Vorpal> A couple of cents mostly
22:53:59 <fizzie> Huh, my Deponia card sold immediately.
22:54:12 <fizzie> It's all very bizarre.
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22:54:23 <Vorpal> fizzie, wow that was quick. I put up those 5 game cards for sale like 4 minutes ago. They are all sold already
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22:54:42 <fizzie> I guess people are buying them?
22:55:16 <Vorpal> Maybe I should put them up for a bit more than the market value next time and see if I get lucky with it being the cheapest at the point of sale by chance
22:55:41 <fizzie> I don't know what kind of benefits you get from a high Steam Level.
22:56:00 <Vorpal> fizzie, you said voting on community thingy before?
22:56:09 -!- typeclassy_ has joined.
22:56:15 <fizzie> There's that, but there's probably something else too.
22:56:23 <fizzie> I know you can "pimp" your profile more, the higher your level is.
22:56:33 <elliott> Vorpal: weren't you just mocking the idea of doing this kinda thing before
22:56:46 <fizzie> Showcase (more) badges, make a custom info box, that kind of stuff.
22:57:32 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm mocking the idea of buying this stuff. But if I get cards for just playing games I want to play, of course I'm going to sell them, since I do not say no to money
22:57:41 <Vorpal> Well, legal money that is
22:57:48 <fizzie> "What are the direct benefits of my Steam Level? You get more options to customize your profile, and the maximum number of friends you can have on your friends list increases."
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22:58:00 <elliott> I don't think you would do anything that gives you money just because it's legal
22:58:01 <fizzie> "Once you reach Steam Level 10 you can pick and customize a showcase from the profile edit page. Each 10 Steam Levels earns you an extra showcase, i.e. two showcases at Level 20, three showcases at Level 30, etc."
22:58:09 <elliott> if you would then you're dangerous
22:58:16 <Vorpal> elliott, well no, but this require no effort at all.
22:58:23 <Vorpal> And doesn't hurt anyone
22:58:36 <Vorpal> Except possibly those stupid enough to spend money on this stuff
22:58:44 <elliott> arguable, it hurts people sucked into buying these things for various psychological reasons
22:59:28 <elliott> if you ascribe addiction to gambling type things to stupidity then you have a rather shallow understanding :/
23:00:06 <Vorpal> I'm not sure these people are addicted to gambling, since they can clearly see which card and what it costs.
23:00:07 <fizzie> Vorpal: Also, turns out you can't do the "set profile background" task of the Pillar of Community by just, you know, uploading a background image. No, you have to get a background image drop from crafting a badge. Then you can set it as your background profile, or trade/sell it away.
23:00:14 <Vorpal> "If you gather another complete set of trading cards for the same game you can upgrade that game badge. You can craft a set for the same game at most five times. Each time you upgrade the game badge you'll get an extra 100XP, as well as upgrading the image and title of the badge." <-- jesus crist
23:00:46 <Vorpal> fizzie, well I guess they want to avoid penises and such
23:00:48 <fizzie> I think you're also likelier to get rare drops from higher-level badges.
23:00:50 <elliott> Vorpal: "gambling type things"
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23:00:52 <Phantom_Hoover> am i going to have to manually set prices for every card i own
23:00:53 -!- Guest7487 has joined.
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23:01:00 <elliott> if you think a lot of these trading type systems aren't designed to exploit people then ...
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23:01:22 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, yes you need to sell them one by one from what I can tell
23:01:23 -!- _46bit has changed nick to Guest65919.
23:01:30 <Vorpal> if you own a lot that would be annoying yes
23:01:37 <Vorpal> elliott, oh yes they are
23:01:44 <fizzie> Vorpal: You can probably already get penises in via screenshot upload feature and versatile-enough games, but I guess there's that.
23:02:05 <Vorpal> fizzie, well as long as garry's mod exists yes
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23:02:27 <Vorpal> Or any moddable game for that matter
23:02:38 <elliott> Vorpal: and you see nothing unethical about exploitation?
23:02:48 <elliott> because you decided they're stupider than you...?
23:03:09 <Vorpal> elliott, steam doing it. Me just clearing out my inventory of 5 cards for a total of 0.26 EUR, not so much.
23:03:23 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, except he's not exploiting anyone; steam are, he's just mildly complicit (and you're already complicit by using steam at all)
23:03:34 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, good summary yes
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23:04:38 <Vorpal> Yes in a sense I guess I'm allowing this to happen to a very slightly larger degree by selling my selling my cards. On the other hand, the price will be lowered by people flooding the market, meaning these addicted people will have to spend less money
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23:05:06 <Vorpal> elliott, is that second point not valid?
23:05:24 <Vorpal> If very few people sold cards the price would rise instead.
23:05:47 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: sure, there are degrees of complicitness though. anyway, I wasn't actually trying to say what he did was immoral
23:05:52 <elliott> just that the justification "I don't say no to money" is nonsense
23:06:22 <Vorpal> elliott, yes I realized right after I said that, that it was badly worded
23:07:05 <Vorpal> Also they do *foiled* trading cards? For digital only cards? Really?
23:07:55 <fizzie> I guess they have a shinier graphic?
23:07:58 <fizzie> I haven't seen one ever.
23:08:05 <Vorpal> Why couldn't steam let you play a game with the trading cards, like MTG or Hearthstone does. Instead of just trading the cards...
23:08:20 <fizzie> (Also I hadn't realized the maximum number of friends is based on Steam Level.)
23:08:57 <Vorpal> fizzie, are you anywhere near the limit though?
23:09:46 <shachaf> it's not just maximum number of steam friends
23:09:54 <shachaf> it's the maximum number of actual friends you can have
23:09:59 <fizzie> Vorpal: I don't know, I'm not sure where the limit is listed.
23:09:59 <shachaf> this steam business is important
23:10:11 <fizzie> Vorpal: I doubt it's "5", though.
23:10:28 <fizzie> Ah, "Friends: 5 / 330".
23:10:38 <fizzie> Seems I'm not quite in danger of running out of slots, then.
23:11:41 <Vorpal> Hm I have a badge called "Power Player". Seems it is based on how many games I own since it says "248 games owned" in the description. It also has the icon of the text "100+". I think I bought around 15-20 games directly on steam though. The rest is all indie bundles.
23:12:18 <Vorpal> That is a hell of a lot of games...
23:12:30 <Vorpal> Most of them are probably bad too
23:12:47 <Vorpal> Or I'm at least no interested in most of them
23:12:53 <fizzie> I have the "Collection Agent" (same, but 50+) badge.
23:13:21 <Vorpal> fizzie, interestingly I get 497 XP from that badge. What a weird number
23:13:49 <fizzie> games*2+1? Kind of curious.
23:14:13 <fizzie> Wow, a friend of mine has a Snow Globe 2013 *foil* badge.
23:14:25 <Vorpal> fizzie, what is the difference?
23:14:43 <Vorpal> Also there is quite a lot of linux games on steam these days
23:14:43 <fizzie> The icon is all silvery.
23:15:33 <fizzie> Vorpal: Incidentally, you only need two more games for the Game Mechanic (250+) badge.
23:15:56 <Vorpal> fizzie, well, I guess the next indie bundle which I want like 1-2 games from will provide that
23:16:15 <Vorpal> speaking of indie bundle, wasn't there a new humble weekly one now?
23:16:43 <Vorpal> Ah point and clicks. And I own all but one
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23:16:58 <Vorpal> And I don't care about Shelter
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23:17:31 <Vorpal> Wait, I don't own Lume either. Hm *checks out the video*
23:18:39 <fizzie> I quite liked Botanicula and Machinarium.
23:18:51 <fizzie> But I've already got both of those.
23:18:52 <Bike> machinarium is great
23:20:09 <Vorpal> Bike, if you liked machinarium, give Botanicula a try. Same developer. Same feeling to it.
23:20:25 <fizzie> But it's all bio and not robo.
23:21:47 <Vorpal> Also don't try to play Machinarium on a Nexus 10 tablet. It really isn't made for such a high DPI screen and it uses pixel based graphics.
23:22:12 <Vorpal> Almost as bad as Avadon on the Nexus 10.
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23:22:34 <myname> does botanicula run on android?
23:22:49 <Vorpal> according to the platform list on humble bundle
23:23:08 <Vorpal> As much as I like Spiderweb Software and as much as I love all the games they (well he, one guy iirc) made; the android port is unplayable
23:23:11 <int-e> win / mac / linux / steam. nope.
23:23:40 <Vorpal> I guess you can't say monitor about a tablet
23:23:58 <Vorpal> Also lume doesn't look that interesting
23:24:37 <int-e> well machinarium is the only game on that list that I've already played ...
23:25:17 <fizzie> Machinarium and Botanicula both don't have Linux support in their Steam editions, which is a bit of a shame.
23:25:24 <Vorpal> int-e, Botanicula is well worth $6 alone. Samorost and Windowsill aren't really worth much IMO. Lume and Shelter I never played
23:26:09 <fizzie> I'd like for Botanicula to have some sort of a "have not yet collected all creature cards" indicator before progressing through points of no return.
23:26:18 <Vorpal> fizzie, well I prefer to not use steam most of the time. I do redeem my bundled games on steam though as an insurance should humble bundle go under.
23:26:20 <Bike> mmm i'll probably buy that later
23:26:56 <Vorpal> fizzie, I would much prefer redeeming on gog or even desura though. You used to get desura codes in the early bundles, but it has been a while since I have seen that
23:27:25 <fizzie> Perhaps Valve made them an offer they couldn't refuse.
23:27:28 <Vorpal> fizzie, the cards didn't have any functional use though did they? Looked nice yes, but no function iirc?
23:27:53 <Vorpal> fizzie, desura also started their own bundle, indieroyale or something like that iirc
23:28:12 <fizzie> There's one to three "presents" you get at the end that depends on the number of cards you got.
23:28:14 <int-e> Vorpal: I spent $10, too lazy to enter a custom amount ;)
23:28:25 <fizzie> I wandered around quite a lot, but still missed several.
23:28:26 <Vorpal> Generally pretty crappy games on indieroyale the times I checked iirc
23:28:59 <Vorpal> int-e, heh, well botanicula is worth that alone I would say
23:29:17 <fizzie> Of course the presents don't really have a "function" either, I believe; at least the one (or two? can't remember) I got was just nice little animation.
23:29:27 <fizzie> Then again, looking at nice things is pretty much what the whole game is all about.
23:29:44 <fizzie> Preferrably things that go "whee".
23:30:35 <Vorpal> I don't remember how many cards I got
23:31:22 <fizzie> I started a new playthrough where I tried to click on absolutely everything, and got it to the ground, but I'm a bit afraid I missed something small this time around too.
23:31:52 <fizzie> Perhaps I should just look up the number of cards you're supposed to have at the end of each "chapter" from the web.
23:31:59 <fizzie> (I'm sure someone's counted.)
23:32:07 <Vorpal> fizzie, I think I got a fair amount of them, since I do tend to click on everything in that type of game
23:33:03 <fizzie> Well, I do too, but I still managed to miss some, somehow.
23:33:39 <fizzie> The bit where you drop waters and set the "cups" to determine where it goes, did you do all the possible sprouty things?
23:33:46 <Vorpal> I don't remember if I got all
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23:34:25 <fizzie> (You only need to make the middle bit sprout, but there's a special scene and an associated creature card if you do all.)
23:34:27 <impomatic> Everything is deeply intertwingled...
23:34:41 <Vorpal> fizzie, I played it around launch, haven't played it since. Don't even remember that part
23:35:16 <fizzie> Honestly, I probably wouldn't remember either, except for that quasi-recent replay.
23:37:15 <Vorpal> fizzie, btw, that "Jack Lumber" game in the some recent humble bundle. Has some quite funny humor, better than Bard's Tale humor at least. Not a fan of the game play though
23:37:40 <Vorpal> Pretty absurd game, with a really absurd back story
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23:37:56 <kmc> i forgot to play zzo38's game :(
23:37:59 <kmc> maybe i will remember later
23:38:58 <shachaf> Professional Octopus of the World?
23:39:09 <Vorpal> kmc, Or do it now. Or you could do it later. If you want to. But you don't have to, if you don't want to.
23:39:40 <fizzie> Vorpal: I seem to have it.
23:39:44 <zzo38> Do you mean Attribute Zone?
23:39:58 <Vorpal> fizzie, yeah worth playing for a bit on the tablet I guess.
23:40:00 <zzo38> Currently it has only two levels, so it isn't good enough yet, but there are many other games in the same package.
23:40:15 <Vorpal> fizzie, definitely a mobile game level of game play in that
23:43:10 <fizzie> Vorpal: Oh, somewhat amusing: I recently(ish) Steam-activated all my bundle games, then installed Thomas Was Alone on Linux via Steam. I had been playing the directly-downloaded Linux version before, so it managed to dug up my existing (near-the-ending) save from somewhere (presumably $HOME), but then also "achievified" all the achievements (something like 30) I had unknowingly gotten so far, ...
23:43:16 <fizzie> ... all at the same time.
23:43:18 <fizzie> Quite the flood of pop-ups.
23:44:00 <fizzie> (It's one of those games where you get a lot of Steam achievements simply by playing it normally.)
23:45:16 <fizzie> After Super Meat Boy, the controls felt decidedly clunky, though.
23:46:05 <fizzie> (Might have been partially a gamepad/keyboard difference too.)
23:46:59 <Vorpal> I'm not generally a fan of platformers, but the story in Thomas was alone is brilliant
23:56:23 <fizzie> Slightly more on-topically, they could put more esolangs in games. (Certain to have mass-market appeal, I'm sure.) SpaceChem is the only thing I can think of offhand that kind of is one.
23:56:51 <kmc> spacechem meets spaceteam
23:57:22 <fizzie> kmc: Is this some kind of #spascedrugz reference?
23:57:39 <kmc> probably not?
23:57:57 <kmc> we did use "space drugs" as a term for experimental psychedelics
23:58:18 <zzo38> Yes, make up a chess variant involving INTERCAL somehow