←2014-01-12 2014-01-13 2014-01-14→ ↑2014 ↑all
00:00:24 <fizzie> "Subject: Eris is the main object, Dysnomia the small grey disk just above it." Oh, spam subject lines.
00:01:20 <oerjan> a mistake of cosmic proportions
00:01:23 <fizzie> I was hoping for something astronomical, but it's one of these spam messages I don't really "get", where the body also has just some random text and there's no attempt to actually sell/scam anything.
00:01:56 <fizzie> "While at Yale, Shevlin also developed a passion for the new sport of automobile racing. In 1891, he suffered a fall and an internal injury. In 1907, he moved to Vancouver and was also active in real estate. Another fight broke out in early spring 1915."
00:02:01 <fizzie> That's the entire contents.
00:02:18 <fizzie> Both the plaintext and HTML versions, and the HTML version hasn't got any links.
00:02:23 <ion> It’s to add noise to spam filters.
00:03:30 <fizzie> Huh. Plans within plans.
00:04:14 <Sgeo> http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Discussion.aspx?multiverseid=241831
00:04:30 <Sgeo> "one day i want to cancel this card. just for fun."
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00:05:55 <oerjan> ion: huh that's fiendish if true
00:06:12 <ais523> Sgeo: what if you have an "Instants cost you {1} less to play"? then it might even be the right play
00:08:17 <Taneb> Procrastination is bad and umbrellas are :(
00:13:18 <zzo38> ais523: Yes, or maybe in a game with more than two players you might also want to use Cancel on it.
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00:17:07 <zzo38> I have read about someone who had a deck with a very large number of Islands and one Battle of Wits, and managed to win with that.
00:17:41 <zzo38> I noticed I have the line ":ter2!~tertu@ QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer" in the same position in two IRC windows.
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00:20:44 <Sgeo> http://magiccards.info/ds/en/114.html
00:20:57 <Sgeo> Are there ways to fight against that other than winning fast (well, I guess 20 turns is a long time)?
00:22:28 <ais523> Sgeo: "exile target artifact" effects is the most obvious
00:22:37 <ais523> you could also use a card that removes counters
00:22:51 <ais523> or bounce it (Boomerang, etc.)
00:24:08 <kmc> "In tournaments, you must be able to shuffle your entire deck within a reasonable amount of time."
00:24:31 <Sgeo> http://magiccards.info/isd/en/61.html this seems awesome for fighting against miller decks
00:24:46 * coppro wonders if he can relate topological graph theory to programming languages
00:26:32 <shachaf> hmm, i guess cards like Vorel of the Hull Clade can double the jams on Darksteel Reactor
00:27:43 <zzo38> If you manage to pick Darksteel Reactor in a draft, then see if you have enough defense and counterspell then maybe it can help you to win with such a thing.
00:28:54 <zzo38> (Limited formats are the only formats I ever play; I don't like the Constructed formats.)
00:35:21 <Sgeo> I think I can actually afford to play Magic now
00:35:55 <Sgeo> Ooh, PokerTH allows spectators now
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00:45:34 <zzo38> How much money can you expect to lose on average if you play Limited formats and sell all cards you manage to get after the tournament is finished?
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00:46:15 <ais523> zzo38: that's been tested very extensively on Magic Online, the answer is "if you're a good player, you make money, so long as you're careful to normally play against people worse than yourself"
00:47:33 <Sgeo> You can sell your virtual cards on MGO?
00:47:41 <Sgeo> MTGO
00:47:48 <ais523> Sgeo: yeah, but only for MTGO currency
00:48:02 <ais523> however, you can then use the currency to enter more MTGO tournaments
00:48:15 <Sgeo> And I need real currency to buy MTGO currency I assume, if I don't sell cards
00:48:16 <ais523> so you end up not spending any real money, and gaining more and more MTGO currency over time
00:48:42 <zzo38> ais523: What if you play in just normal tournaments in a store or anime convention or something?
00:48:51 <Sgeo> The whole real money thing is what bothered me most about MTGO, but... I actually have money now
00:48:54 <zzo38> (Rather than being careful to pick the opponents)
00:49:08 <ais523> Sgeo: it's still really expensive, though
00:49:13 <Sgeo> zzo38: that's worse than needing real money -- you need real money AND need to take care of your cards
00:49:29 <kmc> but can you sell your virtual cards on MtGox
00:49:32 <kmc> (not anymore)
00:49:46 <Sgeo> "(not anymore)"?
00:49:53 <Sgeo> ais523: :(
00:50:12 <Sgeo> I... guess I don't know if the fun I can imagine having on MTGO is worth the cost :/
00:51:29 <ais523> I used to have enough fun playing Magic to be worth the cost, but then Lorwyn was released, and I stopped having fun
00:51:38 <zzo38> Sgeo: The cards would be sold right at the tournament though, right after it is finished, I mean; how much would you expect to lose on average?
00:51:54 <Sgeo> Don't really want to sell cards
00:52:39 <zzo38> Why?
00:52:40 <kmc> Sgeo: MtGox stands for Magic: the Gathering Online Exchange
00:52:40 <kmc> really
00:52:50 <kmc> it started as a place to sell magic cards, before they got into this newfangled "Bitcoin" thing
00:53:05 <shachaf> whoa, whoa, whoa
00:53:14 <shachaf> i thought it was an online exchange for magic: the gathering
00:53:21 <shachaf> not an exchange for magic: the gathering online
00:53:23 <shachaf> which one is it
00:53:25 <Sgeo> kmc is telling the truth, if Wikipedia is telling the truth
00:53:27 <zzo38> If I want to play Magic: the Gathering or something on computer, I would prefer to use different software which has open source and allows putting in your own cards and all that stuff too
00:53:31 <kmc> shachaf: i'm not sure
00:53:56 <kmc> zzo38: I used Apprentice Way Back In The Day
00:53:59 <Sgeo> zzo38: the convenience of having the software understand the meaning of the cards overrides that for me
00:54:34 <zzo38> Sgeo: Yes, to write a software that supports it. In fact I had ideas like that too!
00:55:08 <zzo38> That could compile card texts with various annotations into a Haskell code.
00:56:54 <shachaf> should i get a bunch of magic: the gathering cards
00:57:26 <zzo38> shachaf: I don't recommend it; you don't need any.
00:57:55 <shachaf> don't need any for what?
00:58:00 <zzo38> They will give you some when you enter, and you can sell them back afterward.
00:58:24 <shachaf> who will
00:58:57 <shachaf> my coworkers play it a lot but in general there is no selling or buying of cards
01:00:33 <zzo38> The tournament, if you pay the entry fee they will give you three packs of cards. You can resell them immediately afterward.
01:00:44 <zzo38> Basic land cards can be borrowed for free.
01:01:23 <shachaf> is the entry fee similar to the cost of three packs of cards
01:01:38 <zzo38> Unfortunately, I don't know.
01:01:50 <ais523> shachaf: it's a bit more than the cost of three packs of cards, traditionally
01:01:57 <kmc> lol surprise there
01:01:57 <zzo38> But if you win the tournament generally you will be given an extra pack.
01:02:22 <oerjan> `run olist 937 # Sgeo already did this but HackEgo was gone
01:02:27 <Sgeo> I don't trust myself with physical cards anymore
01:02:28 <HackEgo> olist 937: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly
01:02:44 <zzo38> oerjan: No! The message has to start with "`olist" deliberately.
01:02:53 <zzo38> (But it already did once, so that's OK)
01:03:20 <oerjan> zzo38: that's your interpretation.
01:03:34 <oerjan> i search for my nick, not `olist.
01:03:46 <kmc> `relcome HackEgo
01:03:49 <HackEgo> HackEgo: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
01:03:58 <shachaf> zzo38: See, so oerjan did `run olist, so that there would only be one message starting with `olist in the logs.
01:04:04 <zzo38> oerjan: But your nick willl appear in various other messages too.
01:04:07 <shachaf> It's ideal.
01:04:19 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes that is what I mentioned second time. (Also, `run allows you to add comments afterward, like is done there.)
01:04:38 <shachaf> So what oerjan did is ideal.
01:04:46 <oerjan> zzo38: of course, and i want to see those too, which is why i search for my nick.
01:05:42 <oerjan> zzo38: anyway the reason i did it now was because some nicks were not mentioned the last time. although only FireFly it seems, who saw the `olist anyway.
01:05:53 <zzo38> Ah, OK.
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01:15:19 <oerjan> `addquote <Taneb> Note to self: if a recipe says "serves 4", I am not physically able to eat it all in one sitting
01:15:23 <HackEgo> 1158) <Taneb> Note to self: if a recipe says "serves 4", I am not physically able to eat it all in one sitting
01:17:07 <pikhq> Only 4?
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01:17:30 <Sgeo> A deck with 60 Plains would be tournament-legal, right?
01:17:38 <pikhq> Yes.
01:17:43 <kmc> 60 trains
01:17:51 <pikhq> It would be *bad*, but perfectly legal.
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01:19:09 <pikhq> A deck of 600 Plains would *also* be tournament legal. (assuming you can shuffle that in the time allotted)
01:25:13 <kmc> how good does the shuffle need to be
01:25:21 <kmc> indistinguishable from random by any polynomial time turing machine?
01:27:25 <pikhq> Unspecified, but given that tournaments are human-judge-governed, "enough that you don't piss the judge off".
01:27:59 <Phantom__Hoover> whats a plain
01:29:47 <pikhq> A Plains is a Magic card. Its type is Basic Land -- Plains. It has no text.
01:30:49 <copumpkin> sounds pretty plain
01:30:58 <shachaf> but it has the intrinsic ability "{T}: Add {W} to your mana pool"
01:31:18 <pikhq> Yes, it has the land subtype Plains.
01:32:30 <Sgeo> Some versions have a huge {W} symbol in their text box, does that count as text?
01:32:32 <shachaf> plain ol' land
01:32:42 <pikhq> Sgeo: No.
01:33:05 <pikhq> Versions with "{T}: Add {W} to your mana pool" or some variation thereof also have no text.
01:33:50 <shachaf> whoa, whoa, whoa, why not
01:34:10 <pikhq> Because the rules say so.
01:34:51 <shachaf> where
01:34:57 <pikhq> In essence, the card's printed contents say absolutely nothing about what the card's properties are.
01:35:10 <kmc> obligatory "i'd tap that"
01:35:40 <pikhq> shachaf: 108.1
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01:43:47 <zzo38> I think that is silly that the rules would say it has no text.
01:44:19 <zzo38> I also think other rules of Magic: the Gathering also are no good or are too klugy or other reasons.
01:45:12 <shachaf> do you have a list
01:45:28 <zzo38> I don't think I did actually write down a list, unfortunately.
01:45:36 <pikhq> If not it's pretty trivial to make one.
01:45:45 <zzo38> But I also think "Planeswalker" is a bad name for a card type.
01:45:49 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes, that is true.
01:46:27 <pikhq> The MTG rules are really *blatantly* a kludge.
01:47:55 <zzo38> Yes, a lot, and I have a lot of idea to fix. I also hate that they removed mana burn; it is a very strategical importance. But a good thing they fixed is chaing the name of "remove from game" zone to "exile" zone; now is more sensible that part, at least.
01:48:17 <zzo38> (Since, such zone are really still part of the game.)
01:48:33 <Bike> i just want to play rummy.
01:48:41 <Bike> those cards have no text and everyone likes it that way!
01:49:00 <zzo38> Bike: OK, then play rummy. There is several different kind of rummy game, too.
01:49:11 <Bike> can i play rummy with Magic cards
01:49:30 <zzo38> Bike: I don't know. Possibly you can figure out a way.
01:49:36 <pikhq> At least things don't gain Substance anymore.
01:49:46 <zzo38> I know you can play rummy with Yomi cards though.
01:50:15 <shachaf> are you allowed to tap artifacts if they don't have an activated ability that costs {T}
01:50:29 <zzo38> shachaf: Only if something says so, I think.
01:50:35 <pikhq> shachaf: Not unless something lets you, no.
01:52:25 <shachaf> so what's with Howling Mine (<http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=247316>)
01:52:50 <shachaf> is that just written that way in case something else can cause it to be tapped?
01:53:09 <Bike> isn't yomi the samurai's arrows in nethack
01:53:28 <pikhq> It is written that way explicitly so it doesn't function if something causes it to be tapped.
01:53:49 <zzo38> Bike: That isn't what I meant.
01:54:22 <pikhq> *Ah*. It's really old in part. Way back when, continuous artifacts didn't work when they became tapped for whatever reason.
01:54:33 <pikhq> The wording is to preserve that functionality.
01:54:48 <zzo38> shachaf: Howling Mine could be good to cause opponents running out of cards more fastly, I suppose, if you have ways to replenish your draw pile from your discard pile or something like that.
01:55:08 <pikhq> There are cards that cause artifacts to become tapped, FWIW.
01:55:15 <shachaf> sure
01:55:18 <pikhq> There's even some that let you tap another artifact as a cost.
01:55:22 <shachaf> right
01:55:38 <pikhq> But ultimately, it's a matter of that being one heck of an old card.
01:56:46 <shachaf> when something says you may return it from your graveyard to the battlefield, does that mean that it has to have been in the battlefield in the past?
01:56:56 <shachaf> e.g. if you discard it from your hand, you can't use that ability?
01:57:04 <zzo38> shachaf: No it doesn't mean it has to be.
01:57:22 <zzo38> But if it tries to put back a Instant or Sorcery it just remains where it is, I think.
01:58:44 -!- copumpkin has changed nick to meconium.
01:58:49 <shachaf> if something gets a bunch of jams and then goes to your graveyard, scavenge will just use the printed power on it, right?
01:59:02 <kmc> printer jams?
01:59:13 <shachaf> +1/+1 jams
01:59:33 <shachaf> or other kinds i suppose
02:00:05 <kmc> kick out the jams
02:03:15 <zzo38> I also don't like the rule that auras that are also creatures are discarded, and the rule that -1/-1 and +1/+1 counters are removed each other, and that losing due to unable to drawing a card is a state based effect rather than being immediate.
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02:17:23 <Sgeo> Oh hey MTGO finished installing
02:17:30 <Sgeo> Erm, downloading
02:19:07 <Sgeo> "Wizards of the Coast allows collectors who have assembled a full set of digital cards to exchange them for a factory set of printed cards for a $25 shipping and handling fee. Regular cards and foils cannot be mixed. Each set is eligible for a period of up to 4 years after the online release. This program was initially created in order to allay doubt and uncertainty over the investment into virtual cards"
02:19:10 <Sgeo> ....investment?
02:19:37 <Sgeo> I thought the purpose of buying the virtual cards was to have fun, not to invest
02:19:56 <kmc> whenever you want somebody to spend unreasonably much money on something useless, you call it an "investment"
02:20:11 <kmc> that's marketing 101 sgeo
02:20:44 <ais523> Sgeo: the only reason people can afford Magic cards at all in formats like Legacy is that they can sell them again afterwards and make back most of the money
02:21:04 <ais523> any viable Legacy deck costs like $2000
02:22:31 <pikhq> kmc: To be fair-ish, the cost on Legacy-viable Magic cards is rather stable.
02:22:50 <pikhq> Buuut yeah.
02:23:01 <ais523> pikhq: not always, new releases can blow things up
02:23:07 <pikhq> Far better phrased as "pile of cash donated to my hobby"
02:23:11 <ais523> there was the debacle with True-Name Nemesis recently
02:23:51 <ais523> it's massively in demand for Legacy, and only available in one of five theme decks that Wizards keeps producing in equal quantities and insisting that shops buy an equal number of each
02:23:59 <ais523> leading to the other four ending up stuck on shelves
02:24:11 <Sgeo> MTGO isn't going to be too expensive for me to play casually, is it?
02:24:56 <ais523> depends on how many cards you want
02:25:14 <ais523> the way it works is, you buy tix for $1 each, tix enter you into tournaments, where you can win boosters as prizes
02:25:28 <ais523> the smallest tournaments are two-man tournaments, it's 2 tix for each player to enter
02:25:31 <ais523> and the winner gets 1 booster
02:25:36 <zzo38> Do you also get to keep drafted cards in MTGO or not?
02:25:39 <ais523> that's $4 on average for 15 cards, if you have a 50% win rate
02:25:49 <ais523> zzo38: there are two sorts of MTGO drafts, some where you keep them, some where you don't
02:26:20 <ais523> if you enter a tournament where you get to keep them, you have to supply 3 boosters to enter, or else like 12 tix if you don't have the boosters (that's $12)
02:26:28 <ais523> so one draft is going to cost you like $15
02:26:59 <ais523> there are bots that sell boosters from recent sets for like 3 and a half tix each, though
02:27:05 <ais523> (the exact price varies continuously)
02:27:33 <Sgeo> Can I just buy decks to play against randoms and friends?
02:27:46 <ais523> I'm not sure
02:28:54 <shachaf> i heard that you can predict which cards will be in a booster box by opening a few of the packs
02:28:57 <shachaf> is that true
02:28:59 <Sgeo> http://www.wizards.com/mtg/images/digital/magiconline/img_grapeshot.png
02:29:05 <Sgeo> Each copy itself doesn't storm, does it?
02:29:20 <ais523> Sgeo: Storm is a trigger that triggers on casting
02:29:22 <ais523> the copies aren't cast
02:29:22 <shachaf> oh, you're talking about the online thing anyway. ok
02:29:26 <ais523> they're copied while they're on the stack
02:29:56 <ais523> also that would be a trivial infinite loop if they did
02:30:24 <ais523> btw, the person in charge of Magic design is insisting they're never going to do Storm again because it's been a complete balance nightmare every time they've tried
02:32:02 <Sgeo> ais523: should I install wide beta or the current version?
02:32:30 <Sgeo> ais523: also sounds like a UI nightmare, but are there other mechanics that are also UI nightmares?
02:32:31 <ais523> Sgeo: they're compatible; Wizards wants everyone to use the beta but nobody does
02:32:41 <ais523> I'm not sure why
02:32:50 <ais523> they claim the beta's better, at least
02:32:57 <Sgeo> Almost downloaded beta by accident because it defaulted to it
02:33:08 <kmc> lol
02:33:10 <Sgeo> I want to wait until it's stable, but then, I used Gmail while it was in beta
02:33:15 <kmc> lololololol
02:33:25 <ais523> also, Haunt's probably the biggest UI nightmare, it's a UI nightmare even in real-life play
02:36:09 <Sgeo> Apparently MTGO doesn't work in WINE? ais523, how do you use it (assuming you do, rather than knowing everything about a game you don't play)
02:36:26 <ais523> Sgeo: I don't use it
02:36:34 <ais523> knowing everything about games I don't play is one of my hobbies
02:36:45 <ais523> also I follow MTGO beta development, and used to watch streams of it a bunch
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02:36:59 <Sgeo> streams of development or gameplay?
02:37:16 <ais523> gameplay
02:37:22 <ais523> but nobody streams the beta, that's how I know it's unpopular
02:37:36 <ais523> the development isn't streamed, development rarely is
02:37:54 <kmc> `addquote <ais523> knowing everything about games I don't play is one of my hobbies
02:37:57 <HackEgo> 1159) <ais523> knowing everything about games I don't play is one of my hobbies
02:38:12 <ais523> kmc: seriously, it takes up like half my leisure time that isn't programming
02:38:39 <Sgeo> I kind ofdo the same with programming languages :/
02:38:46 <Sgeo> And games, except for the 'everything' bit
02:41:33 <Sgeo> I think the limitations of using macros to add continuations to languages that don't have them might mirror Haskell's continuation stuff only being available to functions that support it by producing a Cont whatever
02:42:03 <Sgeo> Actually, hmm
02:43:03 <Sgeo> > (`runCont` id) $ shift (\k -> fmap map k (map return [1,2,3]))
02:43:04 <lambdabot> Couldn't match type `GHC.Types.Int
02:43:04 <lambdabot> -> ([m0 a1] -> a0 -> b0) -> [a0] -> [b0]'
02:43:04 <lambdabot> with `Control.Monad.Trans.Cont.ContT
02:43:04 <lambdabot> r0 Data.Functor.Identity.Identity r0'
02:43:04 <lambdabot> Expected type: Control.Monad.Trans.Cont.Cont r0 r0
02:43:13 <Sgeo> I... should think about things more thoroughly
02:43:23 <Sgeo> > (`runCont` id) $ shift (\k -> fmap map k <*> (map return [1,2,3]))
02:43:24 <lambdabot> Couldn't match type `GHC.Types.Int -> [a0 -> b0] -> [[b0]]'
02:43:24 <lambdabot> with `Control.Monad.Trans.Cont.ContT
02:43:24 <lambdabot> r0 Data.Functor.Identity.Identity r0'
02:43:24 <lambdabot> Expected type: Control.Monad.Trans.Cont.Cont r0 r0
02:43:24 <lambdabot> Actual type: GHC.Types.Int -> [a0 -> b0] -> [[b0]]
02:43:33 <Sgeo> That doesn't count as thorough thinking
02:46:07 <Sgeo> Why does Magic Online want admin on my computer?
02:48:04 <ais523> because it's badly programmed
02:48:12 <ais523> it has a tendency to crash, including during tournaments
02:50:26 <zzo38> Those are also other reasons I wouldn't want to use such software.
02:51:12 <Sgeo> Is the beta version any better about not crashing?
02:51:33 <Sgeo> o.O LispWorks is expensive
02:51:33 <Sgeo> http://www.lispworks.com/buy/prices-1c.html
02:51:40 <Sgeo> What's the other popular commerical CL?
02:52:20 <Sgeo> Allegro I think
02:52:52 <ais523> Sgeo: I think the most infamous crashes are on the server end, so it doesn't matter what client you use for that
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03:04:51 <ais523> `log `olist 937
03:05:23 <HackEgo> No output.
03:05:24 <ais523> `log `olist 937
03:05:34 <HackEgo> 2014-01-13.txt:03:05:24: <ais523> `log `olist 937
03:05:40 <ais523> typical
03:05:50 <ais523> `log > `olist 937
03:05:56 <HackEgo> 2014-01-13.txt:03:05:50: <ais523> `log > `olist 937
03:06:05 <ais523> …wait, that's possible?
03:06:19 <ais523> `log [^] ]> `olist 937
03:06:25 <HackEgo> No output.
03:06:29 <ais523> `olist 937
03:06:31 <HackEgo> olist 937: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly
03:06:32 * ais523 is triumphant
03:08:52 <oerjan> triumphant yet failed
03:09:09 <oerjan> ais523: HackEgo was down when the actual `olist was attempted
03:09:25 <ais523> oerjan: don't you mean glogbot?
03:09:32 <ais523> or were they both down?
03:09:33 <oerjan> well both
03:09:36 <ais523> right
03:09:42 <ais523> well in that case the pings never happened the first time
03:10:12 <ais523> so you can't blame me for unwanted pings
03:10:50 <oerjan> however, i did it second time just because it didn't ping. _but_ i used `run olist instead of `olist because i included a comment that i knew it had already been done.
03:11:05 <shachaf> this is the third time i've been notified about this comic
03:11:25 <oerjan> zzo38: i guess i just found another argument for you for why i shouldn't use `run olist
03:11:37 <ais523> oerjan: it's like you actively want to be mispinged
03:11:56 <oerjan> *MWAHAHAHA*
03:12:37 <zzo38> oerjan: What other argument? If it has already been done and you want to add a comment that is the reason to use `run which is already known.
03:13:10 <zzo38> Or do you mean for reading the log?
03:13:21 <oerjan> zzo38: i didn't think that someone (ais523) might want to check if `olist had already been used _without_ being on the list himself
03:13:37 <zzo38> But in that case, isn't glogbackup for?
03:13:52 <ais523> zzo38: I checked by asking HackEgo if anyone had said `olist
03:14:04 <ais523> and it said no, because it wasn't around the first time, and the second time it wasn't spelled `olist
03:14:19 <oerjan> zzo38: Gregor has never made glogbackup merge in its logs properly. you may help nagging him if you want.
03:14:22 <zzo38> oerjan: O, OK, then.
03:14:37 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes he really should fix it please.
03:15:16 <ais523> zzo38: wow that's a confusing sentence
03:15:35 <ais523> you made a request to someone, in the third person, while pinging someone else, then added "pleae"
03:15:38 <ais523> *"please"
03:16:12 <zzo38> That is in case you can contact them too. (I already did sent a message)
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03:28:40 <copumpkin> let's say I have a .tar.xz archive. Is there some way I can add to it without having to decompress it all and recompress it?
03:28:56 <copumpkin> or something with similar compression that supports incremental addition?
03:30:49 <kmc> i don't know about xz, or tar, but you can concatenate gzip files and it's equivalent to gzipping the concatenation of the decompressed files, except bigger
03:30:52 <pikhq> Possibly, but not easily.
03:31:04 <pikhq> xz has the same property.
03:31:19 <pikhq> The trick is adding to a tar. I don't know if there's any real way to do that nicely.
03:31:26 <copumpkin> yeah, I was hoping for it to be able to reconstruct its compressor state and let me pretend I just added shit onto the end of the stream
03:31:50 <kmc> what I want is something like tar but which builds a compression-compatible index, so I can do random access
03:31:56 <kmc> maybe I should use squashfs as my archive format
03:32:18 <kmc> it would be handy to mount archives
03:32:26 <copumpkin> I have a lot of annoyingly large json files that share a lot of structure and they compress beautifully
03:32:33 <copumpkin> but I don't want to compress them all at once
03:32:42 <copumpkin> and xz achieves ridiculous ratios on them :(
03:32:50 <pikhq> Actually, is the concatenation of two tarballs a valid tarball?
03:33:24 <pikhq> It would seem "not really".
03:34:01 <kmc> copumpkin: you could stuff each one into a JSON object like {'filename': 'foo.json', 'data': ...} and then your archive format is just "sequence of json values" and you can concat .xz files
03:34:31 <copumpkin> yeah, but concatting them doesn't get me the same benefit :/
03:34:38 <pikhq> Ah, yep, tar does have an EOF marker in it, which is why it doesn't work.
03:34:41 <copumpkin> once I have enough of them, the marginal growth of adding another json file is tiny
03:34:51 <copumpkin> whereas compressing them individually grows much faster
03:34:54 <zzo38> pikhq: Presumably that is so that it works if loaded on a tape?
03:34:59 <kmc> oh i see, you want to compress it wrt the existing structure
03:35:02 <ais523> you can concat .ttyrec
03:35:03 <copumpkin> yeah
03:35:11 <copumpkin> seems rather unlikely to be a common use case
03:35:16 <copumpkin> but it'd make me very happy
03:35:20 <ais523> but it isn't a compression format, it's a video codec
03:36:49 <zzo38> You could also make the archive format just, have a null-terminated filename followed by the 32-bit length and then data of that file. Now it can easily be concatenated.
03:38:50 <kmc> zzo38: but if the data is already JSON then might as well use JSON for the container as well
03:40:23 <copumpkin> for scale, I have about 20k json files using up close to 6gb
03:40:30 <zzo38> kmc: Yes, if the data is already JSON, then that can work
03:40:57 <copumpkin> they compress to about 80MB
03:41:15 <copumpkin> horribly redundant structure, even apart from the json noise
03:41:24 <copumpkin> (format isn't under my control unfortunately)
03:44:16 <kmc> if you have a small number of files compressed together then you can afford to recompress them all whenever you add one... and occasionally when that gets big enough you recompress it together with the next bigger chunk of files... and so forth
03:45:04 <pikhq> Ah, nice. Amortising the compressor cost.
03:45:46 <copumpkin> yeah
03:45:52 <copumpkin> hmm
03:46:40 <kmc> edwardk gave a talk at mozilla sf which was about some data structure which used a list of arrays whose sizes followed counting in skew binary
03:46:46 <copumpkin> yeah
03:47:01 <kmc> so that you never have a cascade of carries, which here would correspond to recompressing a whole lot of data at once
03:47:02 <copumpkin> problem in this case is that at some point merging large ones will get impossibly large
03:47:17 <kmc> well you can stop at some point
03:47:22 <copumpkin> I guess, yeah
03:47:40 <kmc> if you can afford to store 80MB per 20k files, then don't bother compressing chunks bigger than 20k
03:47:55 <copumpkin> yeah
03:48:05 <kmc> i agree that something which can resume the compressor state would be more elegant, though
03:48:16 <kmc> but i don't know of anything like that
03:48:40 <pikhq> There's no real reason it can't be done, but yeah.
03:48:50 <kmc> perhaps you can write or hack up a compressor implementation to serialize its state at the end of the output
03:49:33 <pikhq> (at least in gzip, and presumably also in xz, the compressor state up to a point can be entirely derived from the compressed output up to that point)
03:49:40 <kmc> oh, neat
03:49:45 * kmc -> afk
03:50:55 <pikhq> The compressor may have looked ahead further, but when it's outputting the compressed text it's already output everything that depends on future text in the stream (namely, symbol frequencies for the Huffman table)
03:51:45 <pikhq> And the symbol frequencies and window are just about all of the compression state.
03:53:34 <Sgeo> shachaf: remind me tomorrow to help with Dylan
03:53:46 <shachaf> why
03:56:32 <Sgeo> Because, I want to help financially if possible
04:01:56 <Sgeo> Kind of annoyed that opendylan.org's https certificate is expired, want to fix tthat
04:04:32 <copumpkin> pikhq: yeah, I was hoping that already existed somewhere
04:09:34 <shachaf> @tell Sgeo 19:53 <Sgeo> shachaf: remind me tomorrow to help with Dylan
04:09:34 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
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05:20:18 <oerjan> > x $ y ? z
05:20:19 <lambdabot> Not in scope: `?'
05:20:29 <oerjan> > x $ y & z
05:20:30 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `b0 -> t0'
05:20:31 <lambdabot> with actual type `Debug.SimpleReflect.Expr.Expr'Couldn't match e...
05:20:31 <lambdabot> with actual type `Debug.SimpleReflect.Expr.Expr'
05:20:46 <oerjan> :t \x y z -> x $ y & z
05:20:47 <lambdabot> (b -> t) -> a -> (a -> b) -> t
05:25:18 <shachaf> > f $ x & g
05:25:19 <lambdabot> Could not deduce (Debug.SimpleReflect.Expr.FromExpr b0)
05:25:20 <lambdabot> arising from the ambiguity check for `e_1'
05:25:20 <lambdabot> from the context (Debug.SimpleReflect.Expr.FromExpr (b -> t),
05:25:20 <lambdabot> Debug.SimpleReflect.Expr.FromExpr b)
05:25:20 <lambdabot> bound by the inferred type for `e_1':
05:25:47 <shachaf> > f $ x & g :: Expr
05:25:48 <lambdabot> No instance for (Debug.SimpleReflect.Expr.FromExpr b0)
05:25:48 <lambdabot> arising from a use of `Debug.SimpleReflect.Vars.g'
05:25:48 <lambdabot> The type variable `b0' is ambiguous
05:25:48 <lambdabot> Possible fix: add a type signature that fixes these type variable(s)
05:25:48 <lambdabot> Note: there are several potential instances:
05:25:51 <shachaf> > (f::Expr->Expr) $ (x::Expr) & (g::Expr->Expr) :: Expr
05:25:52 <lambdabot> f (g x)
05:26:01 <shachaf> so simple!!
05:27:47 <oerjan> shachaf: i was really just checking if $ and & had the right fixities to be combined like that.
05:28:18 * oerjan was editing a stackoverflow answer
05:29:54 <shachaf> this one? http://stackoverflow.com/questions/21084178/using-lens-in-haskell-to-modify-values
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05:30:49 <shachaf> that doesn't even give the simple answer :'(
05:30:56 <shachaf> preflex: seen tel
05:30:56 <preflex> tel was last seen on #haskell 25 days, 8 hours, 15 minutes and 48 seconds ago, saying: I'd like to annotate the expression with cofree, but both Bound and cofree want to use the same variable to recurse on
05:31:03 <shachaf> oh well
05:31:19 <oerjan> shachaf: my edit was adding the simple answer, i hope
05:31:39 <oerjan> it hasn't been approved yet, though
05:31:49 <shachaf> your edits need to be approved?
05:32:08 <shachaf> can i approve edits or do you need more superpowers for that
05:32:54 <shachaf> apparently i can review suggested edits but only random ones from who knows where
05:33:01 <oerjan> shachaf: i believe i need 2000 rep to get autoapproved, only have 480 yet
05:34:20 <oerjan> made a big jump today though
05:34:34 <kmc> gameify quickly giving wrong answers to programming questions
05:35:33 <oerjan> i think this is the first time i try to edit someone else's answer, anyway
05:35:55 <shachaf> kmc: whoa, just like irc
05:36:31 <copumpkin> shachaf++
05:38:38 <shachaf> copumpkin: i get it
05:38:52 <shachaf> but i don't get Nu Maybe :'( what am i missing
05:39:01 <copumpkin> what's to get?
05:39:09 <oerjan> shachaf: you need to get something fixed
05:39:15 <shachaf> why is my code so ugly
05:39:35 <shachaf> for addition and multiplication and all that
05:40:15 <copumpkin> I could see multiplication being a huge pain to define in a total language
05:41:02 <shachaf> what is "correct" multiplication anyway
05:41:15 <shachaf> what's 0 * infty or infty * 0, both 0?
05:41:27 <copumpkin> it might not even be possible!
05:41:37 <shachaf> wait, what's not possible
05:41:52 <copumpkin> well, you could write that
05:42:04 <copumpkin> the choices are all pretty arbitrary though
05:42:12 <shachaf> arbitrary things are the worst
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05:48:57 <oerjan> @src on
05:48:57 <lambdabot> (*) `on` f = \x y -> f x * f y
05:49:53 <kmc> i forgot that you can use infix operators as formal parameters
05:49:56 <kmc> that's the fuckin' best
05:51:01 <oerjan> now my question is, how do i quote that in a stackoverflow comment.
05:51:48 <oerjan> (`` is used to start and end code fragments in SO.)
05:53:19 <oklopol> "<ais523> the development isn't streamed, development rarely is" i've seen a lot of development streams? or, well, more like this is what we did this week. i guess they rarely stream the actual WHY IS THIS TURTLE SWIMMING BACKWARDS ARRRGH CORN, CORN EVERYWHERE.
05:53:53 <oerjan> shachaf: 0 * infty = 0 is standard in measure theory.
05:54:53 <oerjan> i don't think i've seen oklopol break quite that much before.
05:57:02 <oerjan> ok apparently you can use `` around code which contains `
05:57:17 <oerjan> (`` ... ``, i mean)
05:57:53 <oerjan> fortunately i don't think `` is used in haskell.
05:58:01 <oklopol> oerjan: yes but that's how bad my code breaks.
05:58:12 <mauke> "``"
05:58:41 <oerjan> mauke: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
05:58:48 * oerjan hopes that won't show up
05:59:28 <mauke> (*) `on` f = \x y -> f x * f y -- you can use `` around an identifier to infixify it
05:59:36 <mauke> now with more real
06:00:39 <kmc> {- "-}" " -}
06:00:58 <mauke> this is why nested comments aren't
06:01:17 <mauke> (haskell's aren't nested, ocaml's aren't comments)
06:04:24 <oerjan> whoops my edit was rejected
06:05:07 <oerjan> 3:1 against
06:05:32 <mauke> http://i.imgur.com/7nsdf1g.gif
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06:08:03 <shachaf> oerjan: how does measure theory work
06:09:18 <oerjan> made a comment instead.
06:09:52 <kmc> i never measured a theory i didn't like
06:10:14 <oklopol> what's this about measure theory
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06:11:01 <copumpkin> shachaf: it doesn't! it's not very constructive
06:11:07 <copumpkin> which basically means it's all bullshit
06:11:16 <shachaf> copumpkin: things don't gotta be constructive, all right??
06:11:32 <shachaf> like my criticism
06:11:34 <Bike> ¬_¬
06:11:42 <shachaf> anyway, maybe some topological thing has an answer to what it should be like?
06:11:45 <copumpkin> constructive criticism is overrated
06:13:09 <shachaf> since the topology thing for infinity manages to behave similarly to the conatural infinity
06:13:25 <shachaf> copumpkin: how do you do topology constructively, anyway
06:14:20 <Phantom_Hoover> fuckin constructivists
06:14:44 <kmc> classical criticism
06:14:54 <kmc> "your painting doesn't not suck"
06:15:39 <shachaf> constructive criticism is related to classical criticism in a similar way to how constructive logic is related to classical logic
06:15:50 <shachaf> if you are constructive you tell someone how to improve a thing
06:16:02 <shachaf> otherwise you're just saying an improvement exists
06:17:30 <copumpkin> "you suck"
06:18:38 <oklopol> what if i say you suck so bad that no one (even your mother) can improve you.
06:18:51 <oklopol> then i guess it's not even classical
06:19:21 <shachaf> well, "improve" in the sense of "there exists something better"
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06:19:48 <shachaf> you ain't the top of the lattice, kid
06:20:05 <shachaf> copumpkin: is #haskell actually much worse on average than a few years ago or am i just more irritable
06:20:13 <oklopol> ok
06:20:26 <copumpkin> shachaf: well, my attention has dwindled in the past couple of years
06:20:44 <copumpkin> I guess I'd need specifics on what's bad, but nothing strikes me as particularly terrible
06:20:52 <copumpkin> except for you and kmc constantly complaining about it :)
06:21:02 <shachaf> ok
06:21:23 <copumpkin> but I really barely read it anymore
06:21:28 <copumpkin> so it's quite possible it's abysmal
06:21:39 <copumpkin> and I just happen to not notice
06:21:57 <copumpkin> would you say it's worse than other major channels?
06:22:03 <shachaf> i don't know
06:22:16 <shachaf> major as in lots of people?
06:22:27 <copumpkin> yeah
06:22:37 <copumpkin> feels a bit like it's diluted with time
06:22:51 <copumpkin> but most of the regulars I remember are gone
06:22:59 <kmc> i only complain intermittently
06:23:29 <copumpkin> would you say it's worse than other major channels? I'm genuinely curious to see a solid argument presenting what's bad about it
06:23:29 <shachaf> i don't know
06:23:46 <copumpkin> even if you don't know how to fix it
06:23:53 <copumpkin> I don't demand that criticism be "constructive" :P
06:24:15 <kmc> that's a bullshit definition of "constructive criticism", anyway
06:24:18 <copumpkin> :)
06:24:50 <shachaf> it's probably better than a lot of major channels, but that's no excuse
06:25:09 <copumpkin> certainly not
06:25:25 <copumpkin> just trying to quantify how bad you see it
06:25:58 <kmc> yeah i've been in large channels with much bigger problems
06:26:15 <kmc> the problems in #haskell are a lot more subtle and that's what makes them (somewhat) interesting to talk about
06:26:22 <kmc> but I think I don't want to say very much about it right now
06:26:23 <shachaf> probably i'll just stop complaining and it'll be just as good
06:26:34 <copumpkin> kmc: fair enough, but at some point I'd still like to see it
06:27:24 <copumpkin> shachaf: well, if you can go into what you think is wrong I think that'd be helpful
06:27:30 <copumpkin> not necessarily now either
06:27:33 <copumpkin> since I'm tired too :P
06:28:24 <copumpkin> it seems a shame for you to sweep your issues with it under the rug, but also a shame to try to deal with them without getting others to agree that they're issues in the first place
06:28:52 * copumpkin shrugs
06:28:55 <copumpkin> too tired to be coherent
06:28:58 <shachaf> deal with them how?
06:29:08 <copumpkin> I don't know! you comment on it a lot
06:29:13 <shachaf> mostly what i do is leave the channel for a while, or recently use /ignore
06:29:26 <shachaf> my /ignore list has 59 entries now, it's great :(
06:29:45 <copumpkin> that doesn't seem optimal, assuming your long-term desire is to help it and/or improve it and/or be a part of it in some way or another
06:30:59 <copumpkin> anyway, I dunno
06:31:15 <copumpkin> need moar time :P
06:44:05 <shachaf> copumpkin: anyway, even addition is awkward
06:44:13 <shachaf> so i bet i'm missing something
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07:01:09 <peapodamus> shachaf Should I spam you so you have an excuse to make it an even sixty?
07:01:32 <shachaf> Well, I don't /ignore that many people in here.
07:01:53 <peapodamus> I could spam you in PM
07:02:09 <peapodamus> with ascii art of feet
07:02:13 <peapodamus> it's easy! Watch!
07:02:26 <shachaf> peapodamus: Please don't.
07:02:34 <peapodamus> lol
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07:08:18 <oklopol> you can spam me
07:08:26 <oklopol> i like spam
07:08:36 <oklopol> makes me feel important
07:10:36 <Phantom_Hoover> shachaf, am i on your ignore list
07:12:45 <kmc> if the answer is "yes", how will you ever know
07:12:48 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: no
07:13:03 <kmc> shachaf: do people on your ignore list ever use bots to harass you i.e. @tell shachaf
07:13:18 <shachaf> i doubt it
07:13:25 <zzo38> I have an assembler which allows a code section for a postprocessor, which is written in the same machine code that the rest of the program is; an emulator is included. The postprocessor code shares all symbol names with the main code, and uses the same macros, etc. Do you know of any other programs that have such a feature like this?
07:13:28 <shachaf> sometimes i take people off the list, too
07:13:53 <shachaf> it's not that they're terrible people or anything
07:14:29 <shachaf> also sometimes i look at logs
07:14:40 <kmc> what does a postprocessor do
07:14:43 <shachaf> i shouldn't be talking about this so much, anyway
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07:15:20 <zzo38> kmc: It can modify the binary before writing it out to the file; it can also specify the format of the output file, and a few other things.
07:17:54 <zzo38> I find this feature useful, whether or not other people do.
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07:20:16 <kmc> what do you use it for?
07:21:52 <zzo38> In this program I am working on now, the postprocessor fills in an identity table, fills in unused entries in a jump table (the used entries are created using macros), creates all the necessary tile variants in the pattern tables, and adds loop addresses to the music data.
07:22:38 <zzo38> In another program I have used it to output a custom header. Another purpose is compile-time debugging.
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07:32:57 <kmc> compile-time debugging? how does that work?
07:34:33 <Sgeo> "I don't get people who say this sucks because 'all it does' is give you mana... By that reasoning Basic Lands suck, good luck making a full 0 CMC deck that doesn't suck."
07:34:46 <Sgeo> A deck that uses no mana? That seems interesting
07:37:37 <ais523> Sgeo: Manaless Dredge is sometimes seen in Legacy
07:37:43 <ais523> it needs no mana, and in fact can't generate any
07:37:55 <ais523> and pretty much the only thing that interacts with it is graveyard hate
07:38:04 <ais523> it's the only deck that people choose to play second against
07:38:20 <ais523> because it literally can't do anything until it starts its engine going via discarding to maximum hand size
07:39:00 <Sgeo> https://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/deck/760 this? it looks like it can generate mana, and has a lot of mana-using cards
07:39:32 <Sgeo> I should sleep
07:42:02 <ais523> Sgeo: yeah, that
07:42:09 <ais523> Dakmor Salvage is never actually /played/
07:42:15 <ais523> it's just there to be dredged
07:42:45 <ais523> the only cards that are actually cast are Cabal Therapy and Dread Return, using the flashback costs
07:43:00 <ais523> I guess you could play Cabal Therapy from Dakmor Salvage if you were desperate, and target yourself
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07:45:05 <ais523> most of the cards in that deck are played for from-graveyard effects
07:48:35 <Sgeo> "Play cards as written. Ignore all errata."
07:49:00 <Sgeo> What happens to interrupts?
07:49:11 <Sgeo> Or.... anything where there's been a terminology or rule change?
07:49:14 <ais523> that's considered a game rule change, so they work like instants
07:49:19 <ais523> also, http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/22324_Deck_Tech_NotQuiteManaless_Dredge_With_Nicholas_Rausch.html is an explanation of that deck
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07:49:30 <Sgeo> "5/5 for turning Lotus Vale into Black Lotus"
07:49:31 <Sgeo> o.O
07:50:01 <Bike> the only magic thing i care about is that combo where you make the other player rip up all their cards
07:50:15 <kmc> ++
07:50:35 <Sgeo> I know there's a card where you have to tear up that card to use it
07:50:45 <Bike> yeah, it's in one of the joke decks
07:50:55 <Bike> then you combine that with a duplicatey thing and a target switchy thing or suchlike
07:51:08 <ais523> Bike: it doesn't actually work
07:51:13 <Bike> you don't actually work
07:51:19 <Bike> anyway: does anyone have an idea why a half life mod won't work on linux even though half life does
07:52:02 <fizzie> Bike: Perhaps you have to tap it first.
07:52:08 <zzo38> kmc: Compile-time debugging works by such thing as having a register $200A which is for standard I/O, so you can print diagnostic messages; the postprocessor can even copy the program it is compiling into its own RAM and execute it at compile-time (although the I/O registers and memory map are different, so it might not work)
07:53:02 <zzo38> I didn't know there is decks that don't generate any mana
07:53:19 <kmc> if retrocomputing is a thing, is retrofuturecomputing also a thing, and is it what zzo38 does
07:53:48 <zzo38> "Retrofuturecomputing"? Is that a word? What exactly does it mean anyways?
07:54:26 <kmc> maybe retrofuture computing would be Plan 9 and Haiku OS
07:54:51 <oklopol> bliip bloop
07:55:06 * oklopol makes future sounds
07:55:08 <zzo38> Do you make up any of your own Magic: the Gathering cards?
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07:55:31 <oklopol> i've made some card games i guess, but never mtg
07:55:42 <zzo38> What card games?
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07:56:06 <oklopol> er, i don't know, crappy ones
07:56:38 <Sgeo> http://www.mtgdeckbuilder.net/Cards/Details/UNG/69 + ignoring errata
07:57:03 <oklopol> i actually made one as a christmas present, but the rules of the game are stolen from another game (there was enough work making the actual cards)
07:57:29 <oklopol> (and by making i mean writing a short program to output pdfs and sending them to a paper company for printing)
07:57:41 <oklopol> (so actually there was very little work)
07:58:17 <oklopol> a friend of mine made a pretty nice card game, called something retarded like dork and doomed, don't recall
07:58:49 <oklopol> somewhat similar to whatsitcalled i guess
07:58:56 <oklopol> whatsitcalled = munchkin
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08:00:03 <kmc> please don't use "retarded" as a pejorative
08:00:31 <Bike> fizzie: good thinking
08:00:50 <oklopol> why not
08:01:01 <oklopol> should i not use gay either?
08:01:05 <kmc> correct
08:01:13 <oklopol> k
08:01:32 <Bike> i don't think it involves any engine modification, it's pretty much just an add on scenario. maybe half life can't deal with that w/o engine modification
08:02:25 <oklopol> (and that was voiced, and a pejorative, by the way)
08:02:39 <kmc> voiced?
08:03:54 <oklopol> like, voiced and not aspirated
08:03:58 <oklopol> it's a gay joke
08:04:04 <kmc> classy
08:04:06 <oklopol> yes
08:05:19 <oklopol> i do somewhat agree with you, but i believe that's only because i do not belong to a group that has an adjective like that, and it's racist to make life decisions based on your own race
08:06:12 <kmc> what?
08:06:25 <oklopol> race in a very general sense
08:06:26 <Fiora> kmc: I think he's attempting the chewbacca defense?
08:06:44 <kmc> is this gonna turn into one of those "i don't even see race" conversations i.e. "if I ignore injustice it will magically go away"
08:07:05 <kmc> it's not "racist" to look at your own privilege and how you might fit into interlocking systems of oppression, on either end
08:07:28 <oklopol> it's funny to say that it is though
08:07:34 <kmc> not really
08:07:45 <kmc> maybe it's funny to you because it upsets other people?
08:07:48 <kmc> i think we have a word for that behavior
08:07:51 <oklopol> maybe
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08:08:00 <oklopol> what's that?
08:08:02 <kmc> trolling
08:08:19 <oklopol> okay
08:08:41 <kmc> anyway you have a right to deliberately use language that upsets others, we also have a right to exclude you from our community if you do so
08:08:56 <oklopol> sure
08:09:52 <oklopol> is stupid okay?
08:10:08 <oklopol> or does it insult stupid people?
08:10:28 <oklopol> is idiotic okay already?
08:11:01 <kmc> i probably wouldn't call you out on those
08:11:25 <oklopol> okay
08:11:35 <kmc> I'm not some expert or some perfect example, the way I talk is still full of ableist language too, it's fucking pervasive
08:12:28 <kmc> but I think avoiding "retarded" is now like a pretty mainstream position, not just a thing of touchy internet social justice people like myself
08:13:03 <oklopol> i agree, i still use it
08:13:44 <oklopol> but yeah it takes some effort nowadays, and perhaps i will have to learn something else some day
08:14:11 <oklopol> how bad do you consider "gay"?
08:14:23 <kmc> as a pejorative? completely unacceptable
08:14:31 <kmc> why would you even think that's okay...
08:14:59 <oklopol> because it's usually used pretty sarcastically
08:15:41 <kmc> i don't really buy that
08:15:44 <oklopol> i mean in english at lesat
08:15:46 <oklopol> *least
08:16:03 <oklopol> well
08:16:30 <oklopol> perhaps i just feel that the finnish "gay" is worse because i've had the native experience with it
08:16:59 <oklopol> and okay, i completely buy that
08:17:34 <zzo38> I have made up some Magic: the Gathering cards, and also Yomi cards, Puzzle Strike cards, Pokemon cards, etc. I like the game of Pokemon card. It would be strange for "lose priority" to be a cost in a Magic: the Gathering, isn't it?
08:17:37 <Bike> 'sarcastically'?
08:18:10 <oklopol> like a kid could say that something is gay
08:18:10 <Bike> maybe thing are different outside of american high school
08:18:20 <oklopol> i don't mean calling a human gay
08:18:36 <oklopol> because wouldn't you call them a fag if you wanted to insult them
08:18:47 <Bike> if we're talking like 'man you're cheating! that's so gay!' i don't see how that's sarcastic
08:18:50 <kmc> oklopol: but they're saying it's gay as a way of saying it's bad, implying gay = bad, do I really need to spell this out for fuck's sake
08:19:08 <oklopol> sure
08:20:14 <oklopol> i just don't really agree with the (i guess mainstream nowadays on the internet) opinion that that somehow influences how you actually feel about gays
08:20:52 <kmc> just because you don't understand the influence doesn't mean it's there
08:21:02 <oklopol> maybe it's an opposite influence
08:21:48 <oklopol> anyway i gotta go learn to drive a car
08:21:54 <oklopol> eek.
08:22:10 <kmc> anyway it's not just about *your* opinion of gay people, what about the gay kid who hears people on xbox live using "gay" as an insult constantly
08:22:13 <zzo38> I would think it improper to call "gay" in the way it often is. Sometimes homosexual people are called "gay", but apparently, it was originally due to male actors who were acting female characters in the play, so it could be used in that restricted sense.
08:22:45 <kmc> seems like that'd have some effect on making their life more painful
08:22:54 <kmc> and you're defending your decision to make their life more painful... why, exactly?
08:22:57 <kmc> what makes it so worth it to you?
08:23:16 <Fiora> "making gay people feel awful and uncomfortable? but what about my straight feelings?"
08:23:30 <oklopol> err, i wouldn't say it to someone who might take it that way?
08:23:37 <kmc> how the fuck do you know?
08:23:39 <oklopol> just like i wouldn't show my dick to a kid
08:23:52 <oklopol> by checking they're over 18
08:23:57 <kmc> oklopol: how do you know I'm not a closeted gay kid who's terrified to come out to his parents?
08:24:00 <kmc> or anyone else in this channel
08:24:22 <oklopol> i haven't used gay as an insult here, have i?
08:24:32 <Fiora> are you particularly sure that nobody in this channel is gay and being made rather uncomfortable by your attempted justifications of homophobia?
08:24:33 <oklopol> (i probably have, but not lately.)
08:24:33 <kmc> no but you're defending the practice of doing so
08:24:47 <oklopol> but i'm not defending using it here!
08:24:49 <oklopol> lol
08:24:53 -!- impomatic has left.
08:24:56 <oklopol> anyway, see you
08:25:07 <Bike> well that made no fucking sense at all
08:25:20 <kmc> oklopol: yeah you should probably leave
08:28:04 <fizzie> I'm tempted to paste some 'grep -i oklopol | grep -i gay' results, but I guess that'd be kinda superfluous.
08:28:27 -!- Fiora has left.
08:29:40 <fizzie> There's also an example of fungot using gay as a pejorative, which is kind of bad. Where'd you learn such language, fungot?
08:29:40 <fungot> fizzie: o(a constants) o(1)? i
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08:30:19 <fizzie> (Now *that's* a Chewbacca defense.)
08:31:42 <fizzie> Oh, I completely missed oklopol's further qualifying statement, thanks to being all grep.
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08:42:48 * kmc sighs
08:42:58 <kmc> I bet Fiora doesn't come back this time
08:43:17 <kmc> can't really blame her
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08:57:33 <zzo38> Cursor moving now works in the Attribute Zone editor.
08:57:52 <zzo38> (The Famicom version, specifically)
08:58:22 <Bike> what's the problem, oklopol said he wouldn't use her as an insult if she could hear it
08:59:41 <kmc> Bike: i won't use slurs as insults if it would make anyone uncomfortable, I'll just talk about how great it would be if I *could* use them until everyone who *would* be uncomfortable leaves
08:59:45 <kmc> good guy oklopol
08:59:49 <kmc> so considerate of other people's feelings
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12:16:27 <oklopol> Bike: how did it make no sense?
12:20:50 <oklopol> one very strong reason for i do not try very hard to be like you guys is that i'm strongly against this kind of ganging up on people
12:21:07 <oklopol> i don't exactly want to associate with such people too strongly
12:22:15 <oklopol> you the only group of people who bully other people openly
12:22:36 <oklopol> because you believe you are correct (which of course makes sense because you are)
12:24:36 <oklopol> *-for
12:28:40 <oklopol> (and i mean correct in your opinion, not your approach)
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13:00:34 <oklopol> *+are
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13:56:50 <boily> good tarquin morning!
13:56:57 <boily> @messages-loûd
13:56:57 <lambdabot> oerjan said 2d 14h 39m 5s ago: <boily> good breakfast morning! <-- so much better than the alternatives!
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14:47:45 <FireFly> @messages-lüüd
14:47:45 <lambdabot> Unknown command, try @list
14:48:07 <FireFly> Stupid non-unicode-understanding bot :(
14:50:26 -!- nycs has changed nick to `^_^v.
14:51:08 <oklopol> i copypasted that in python and it was 0.99 sure that was EUC-JP
14:51:11 <oklopol> is that correct
14:51:40 <FireFly> what.
14:51:57 <FireFly> ü should be u with diaeresis
14:52:09 * FireFly eyes weechat suspiciously
14:52:32 <oklopol> it is that
14:52:37 <FireFly> Good
14:52:38 <oklopol> i mean that's how it shows on my scree
14:52:38 <oklopol> n
14:52:53 <FireFly> Pretty sure python is drunk
14:52:55 <oklopol> but i mean i called some sort of encoding detection function
14:54:41 <oklopol> od was GB2312
14:55:10 <oklopol> and >>> chardet.detect("rpklp")
14:55:10 <oklopol> {'confidence': 0.99, 'encoding': 'EUC-KR'}
14:55:20 <oklopol> (disclaimer: i have no idea what this function is)
14:55:54 <FireFly> Maybe its confidence is supposed to be 1 - stated value
14:56:56 <boily> EUC-KR? has anyone ever used that one?
14:57:46 <oklopol> apparently!
14:58:23 <oklopol> >>> chardet.detect("Mkkiomenahirikk.")
14:58:23 <oklopol> {'confidence': 0.87625, 'encoding': 'utf-8'}
14:58:26 <oklopol> apparently not!
14:59:19 <int-e> >>> chardet.detect("aaaahrg!")
14:59:40 <int-e> hmm. python.
15:00:13 <oklopol> yeah sorry just copypaste
15:00:26 <oklopol> i'm not a python bot
15:00:49 <int-e> I can do it myself, just need to install a package. :)
15:01:08 <int-e> {'confidence': 1.0, 'encoding': 'ascii'}
15:01:36 <int-e> that's ... interesting. so 'ascii' means ASCII or anything that properly extends it ...
15:01:47 <oklopol> >>> chardet.detect("Supermummo.")
15:01:47 <oklopol> {'confidence': 1.0, 'encoding': 'ascii'}
15:03:10 <oklopol> so maybe confidence is just "i'm this confident that the input fits this encoding"
15:03:20 <int-e> haha. ä -> EUC-KR, ö -> TIS-620, ü -> EUC-JP, all with 99% confidence.
15:04:13 <oklopol> i get the same
15:04:16 <int-e> (Combining them into a single string gives utf-8 with 87.625% confidence.)
15:04:44 <int-e> The guess is fine, but the 99% is ... well let's say strange.
15:07:52 <boily> oklopol is like myndzi.
15:08:02 <oklopol> and 87.625% sounds a bit low
15:08:04 <oklopol> i am?
15:10:11 <int-e> . \o/
15:10:11 <myndzi> |
15:10:11 <myndzi> /|
15:10:15 <int-e> not at all.
15:11:15 <oklopol> . .
15:11:26 <oklopol> . .
15:11:37 <oklopol> . . . .
15:12:13 <int-e> . O.o o_O \o_ O.O _o/
15:12:13 <myndzi> | |
15:12:13 <myndzi> /< |\
15:12:37 <int-e> is there a list of myndzi patterns anywhere?
15:12:40 <oklopol> can you change your nick to something with 6 letters
15:13:01 <int-e> I could, but I don't want to.
15:13:01 <oklopol> because xchat is mean
15:13:48 <oklopol> i need a myndzi compatible irc client
15:22:32 -!- susurrus has joined.
15:23:29 <int-e> . \o/ O O
15:23:29 <myndzi> |
15:23:29 <myndzi> /´\
15:25:25 <FireFly> oklopol: it's configurable so that it doesn't indent lines, IIRC
15:25:27 <susurrus> oklopol: there is an 'indent nicknames' option in the preferences, which you could disable.
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15:26:25 <oklopol> wow
15:26:34 <mrhmouse> That was odd.
15:26:44 <int-e> you're welcome ;-)
15:27:09 <FireFly> That's the danger of IRCing as root.
15:27:24 <int-e> you believed that, too. yay!
15:30:20 <oklopol> blerp
15:30:24 <oklopol> ooh cool.
15:36:42 <int-e> FireFly: I feel half bad for not having used a sandbox user :)
15:37:39 <FireFly> Haha
15:41:39 <int-e> Oh. https://jira.atlassian.com/browse/CONF-32190 *is* cute.
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15:57:39 <FireFly> Nice
15:58:27 <Bike> oklopol: if you think you don't like being "ganged up on" in that three people on the internet are complaining about what insults you use, why don't you consider what it would be like to be so fucking dehumanized by a member of a majority that your minority identity is itself used as an insult
16:03:01 <oklopol> i have no particular opinion on whether "gay" should be used as an insult, and i'm pretty sure i have never used it as a serious insult (i know you don't care, but to me there's a bit difference)
16:03:16 <oklopol> s/particular/strong/
16:03:31 <oklopol> i mean don't have a strong opinion when others use it
16:03:38 <oklopol> that's none of my business
16:03:39 <Bike> don't argue you don't have an opinion after you argued about it for twenty minutes
16:04:47 <Bike> how is it not your business? it's dehumanizing and bothers people. do you not have "a strong opinion" on racial slurs either?
16:05:21 <oklopol> i don't think that's quite what i argued
16:05:43 <Bike> you just said "i don't have a strong opinion when others use it"
16:05:45 <oklopol> but yeah usually i try to argue for the minority side
16:05:51 <Bike> except for right now?
16:05:56 <Bike> because, i don't know?
16:06:08 <oklopol> what?
16:06:13 <Bike> and normally you just love minorities but it's important to you that you can use them as insults
16:06:16 <oklopol> the minority side = people who use them as insults
16:06:18 <oklopol> here
16:06:22 <Bike> are you shitting me
16:06:31 <oklopol> no
16:06:37 <Bike> seriously, what the fuck.
16:06:51 <Bike> you're not a fucking oppressed minority because you call things "gay" as an insult.
16:06:56 <Bike> are you joking?
16:07:24 <oklopol> i mean that in a conversation, if people are arguing for x, i rarely try to defend x, i try to find arguments for !x instead
16:07:32 <oklopol> i don't mean i'm an oppressed minority
16:07:35 <coppro> if I ever design a language, I'm going to include a "feature" whereby all identifiers of the form "{$s}or" are the same as the corresponding "{$s}our"
16:07:38 <int-e> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-johnson-says-superrich-are-putupon-minority-like-homeless-people-and-irish-travellers-8946661.html
16:07:51 <Bike> wow that's so great you're a fucking robot just arguing for this on the basis i'm arguing against it
16:07:54 <int-e> (seems relevant somehow)
16:08:19 <oklopol> well i don't quite see it that way
16:08:53 <Bike> you don't seem to see much in any way, since you keep changing why you're arguing and everything else every time i rephrase it to call you a shithead
16:09:03 <int-e> coppro: you should include -ize and -ise.
16:09:10 <Bike> http://the-toast.net/2013/10/02/no-more-devils-advocate/
16:10:11 <coppro> int-e: good idea
16:10:37 <oklopol> well i don't think i've really changed my opinion much, i don't think i really said that i consider "gay" okay
16:10:45 <Bike> scroll up
16:10:47 <Bike> for god's sake
16:11:33 * LinearInterpol walks into this argument.
16:11:35 <coppro> this conversation is stupid
16:11:37 <coppro> LinearInterpol: don't
16:11:43 <nooodl> jesus
16:11:44 -!- nooodl has left ("Ik ga weg").
16:11:51 <oklopol> well i agree that i shouldn't've tried to explain to kmc why it could be okay to call someone "gay"
16:12:02 <oklopol> i should've said "i agree, stupid question"
16:12:19 <LinearInterpol> s/gay/homosexual
16:12:19 <oklopol> i guess i was annoyed at him
16:12:30 <LinearInterpol> to this entire conversation.
16:12:38 <Bike> what did he say that was so annoying
16:12:43 <oklopol> corrected me
16:12:49 <Bike> for 'retarded'?
16:12:51 <oklopol> yes
16:13:00 <Bike> why is that annoying
16:13:14 <Bike> why is you being annoyed justification to use these stupid insults and defend their use
16:13:29 <int-e> I understand. Being corrected does hurt. (Sigh, isn't this channel supposed to be about esoteric *computer* languages?)
16:13:33 <oklopol> well i'm not annoyed anymore
16:13:39 <Bike> great well i am
16:13:59 * LinearInterpol turns 180 degrees and walks out.
16:14:00 <oklopol> i was annoyed at first, but yeah i do agree that i should not use that word
16:14:03 <Bike> int-e: as if anyone but ais cares about being on topic
16:14:06 <oklopol> and he was right
16:14:23 <Bike> you are infuriatingly slimy
16:14:31 <oklopol> ok
16:14:49 <oklopol> why? you basically made me agree with you?
16:15:12 <Bike> "retard" "don't do that please" "actually, [defends usage for hours]" "what the fuck" "wait i actually agreed with you the whole time"
16:18:40 <LinearInterpol> the fact that you two are arguing over the usage and etymology of a word or words saddens me.
16:18:45 <LinearInterpol> you make me sad.
16:19:53 <LinearInterpol> don't make me sad. :(
16:20:03 <coppro> you won't like him when he's sad
16:20:10 <LinearInterpol> yeah, I cry a lot.
16:20:11 <Bike> words are, on occasion, important. and i'll keep your sadness in mind next time i see an argument about whether python is Really A Functional Language Or Not
16:20:39 <LinearInterpol> Bike: functional as in it does something or functional as in the paradigm? because I'm debating both.
16:20:40 <LinearInterpol> :)
16:21:24 <Bike> as in programmers are notoriously ridiculously pedantic but when i object to a dehumanizing insult i'm just being weird
16:22:06 <LinearInterpol> if we were pedantic in our everyday speech, our annoyance factor would increase exponentially.
16:22:28 <LinearInterpol> rather, *exstensively pedantic.
16:22:30 <int-e> LinearInterpol: As, indeed, it does. :)
16:22:43 <LinearInterpol> words are words.
16:22:51 <Bike> thankfully, it's really pretty rare that i feel the need to object to somebody's language, since most people are mildly empathetic enough to not curse like fourteen year olds on xbox live
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16:23:08 <LinearInterpol> if I got offended over the use of a word you didn't take offense to..
16:23:19 <LinearInterpol> would you defend me in the same manner?
16:23:25 <Bike> depends on the word
16:23:30 <int-e> nerds!
16:23:33 <LinearInterpol> should I use some 19th-century example?
16:24:13 * int-e lights the pyre.
16:24:30 <Bike> i haven't been arguing not to use 'gay' because of its history, just that people are going to feel bad when their identity is used as an insult
16:24:41 <Bike> something like 'lunatic' or whatever silly thing you're thinking of isn't really comparable
16:24:52 <LinearInterpol> it was then.
16:24:56 <Bike> it isn't now
16:25:05 <Bike> it is the 21st century if you haven't noticed
16:25:10 <LinearInterpol> and now we're back to etymology..
16:25:34 <Bike> plus, i'm actually mentally ill, i have some position to judge what is and isn't offensive as far as the euphemism treadmill of insanity goes
16:25:42 <LinearInterpol> so am I.
16:25:45 <Bike> so you can just stop right now if you would
16:26:06 <LinearInterpol> I have the same position to judge as you do.
16:26:10 <Bike> great
16:26:46 <LinearInterpol> if you are offended, then I am sorry. those who offended you should apologize and be dealt with.
16:26:53 <LinearInterpol> as is courtious.
16:27:12 <Bike> if you actually find 'lunatic' offensive than sure i'd stop, but it seems pretty likely that you're just using an irrelevant example for rhetoric to justify calling things gay
16:27:32 <LinearInterpol> never did I ever justify calling things gay.
16:27:50 <LinearInterpol> never did I ever justify using retard.
16:27:56 <Bike> then why are you arguing with me
16:28:30 <LinearInterpol> I'm pointing out that you and oklopol bitching back and forth about the meaning and usage of a word is counterproductive to solving you being offended.
16:28:39 <Bike> how is it counterproductive
16:28:45 <LinearInterpol> because it does nothing to remedy it.
16:28:48 <LinearInterpol> :\
16:28:55 <Bike> yes it does, it prevents gay people from being insulted
16:29:05 <LinearInterpol> and are you gay?
16:29:16 <Bike> me? no, but my friend fiora is and she was bothered enough to leave
16:29:54 <LinearInterpol> well then I think she deserves an apology, as do you.
16:29:59 <mrhmouse> I don't think that arguing will ever prevent anything.
16:30:14 <mrhmouse> (and I don't think #esoteric is the place for it, unless it's about esolangs)
16:30:26 <LinearInterpol> mountain dew is the best soda ever made.
16:30:29 * LinearInterpol runs for cover.
16:30:47 <int-e> mrhmouse: "poltiically correct english" seems esoteric enough ;-) (sorry, could not resist.)
16:31:00 <mrhmouse> You people :P
16:31:09 <LinearInterpol> what do you mean "you people"? :P
16:31:17 <Bike> arguing about anything is pointless, knowledge is impossible, opinions are inbuilt into people and unchangeable
16:31:17 * LinearInterpol ducks.
16:31:43 * int-e bows to Bike's superior wisdom and shuts up.
16:31:53 <Bike> all is void
16:31:54 <LinearInterpol> Bike: so focus on solving your own notion of offense.
16:32:01 <Bike> what does that mean
16:32:12 <LinearInterpol> means find a way to make you happy when you're offended. :P
16:32:15 <LinearInterpol> solve the situation.
16:33:12 <LinearInterpol> arguing is like target practice, only you're not shooting for the bullseye, you're shooting for a mountain that's completely out of the way, and none of your arrows/bullets will ever reach it, and even if they do, you'll never see it.
16:33:22 <Bike> i have come up with a solution, which is to tell people that they're being offensive, and then about half the time they'll stop because it isn't really a big deal for them, and the other half of the time i'll argue with them for hours and learn that in this situation only argument is impossible and pointless and i'm just being excessively pedantic
16:33:25 <LinearInterpol> you could be shooting at the bullseye.
16:33:26 * mrhmouse admirs the zen of LinearInterpol
16:33:33 <mrhmouse> s/r/er
16:33:36 <oklopol> can we just shut up, i already admitted i was wrong (in pm, to Bike, at least).
16:33:48 * LinearInterpol bows and sits.
16:33:51 <oklopol> i will try to behave
16:34:08 <oklopol> i have been saying years that i'm an asshole and asked why i'm never called out on it
16:34:13 <int-e> . o O ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y )
16:34:14 <oklopol> now i was called out on it
16:34:20 <oklopol> and i will do something about it.
16:34:34 <oklopol> so yeah, about those esolangs.
16:34:52 <Bike> sorry oklopol, argument is pointless, you have to be an asshole since you were born that way
16:34:58 <Bike> tragic imo
16:34:58 <oklopol> :)
16:35:23 <oklopol> well fuck u 2 lol
16:35:30 <LinearInterpol> that's the spirit.
16:35:42 <LinearInterpol> beer for everyone!
16:35:47 <int-e> yuck.
16:36:29 <LinearInterpol> $ALCOHOLICBEVERAGE for everyone!
16:36:53 <mrhmouse> I can't have alcohol; is there an alcohol-free substitute?
16:37:06 <int-e> $DRINK
16:37:10 <LinearInterpol> $PREFERREDBEVERAGE for everyone!
16:37:20 <LinearInterpol> there, now we can't go wrong.
16:37:23 <LinearInterpol> v0.3
16:37:42 <mrhmouse> 99 bottles of $PREFERREDBEVERAGE on the wall, 99 bottles of ${PREFERREDBEVERAGE}...
16:37:48 <int-e> (Isn't it funny how a "drink" tends to be alcoholic...)
16:37:50 <LinearInterpol> XD
16:39:28 <b_jonas> take one down, pass it around,
16:39:53 <b_jonas> 98 bottles of $PREFERREDBEVERAGE on the wall.
16:40:13 <b_jonas> btw, I recommend to call it $REFRESHINGBEVERAGE instead
16:40:27 <mrhmouse> isn't that copyrighted by Coca-Cola?
16:40:51 <mrhmouse> Nevermind, that's "the drink that refreshes" I think...
16:41:03 <mrhmouse> $FOSB
16:41:12 <LinearInterpol> $COSB
16:41:14 -!- itsy has quit (Client Quit).
16:41:18 <mrhmouse> COSB?
16:41:29 <LinearInterpol> cosb.
16:41:36 <mrhmouse> Cold Open Source Beverages?
16:41:40 <LinearInterpol> yep.
16:41:50 <Bike> still can't believe those actually exist
16:41:59 <LinearInterpol> Me either.
16:42:09 <LinearInterpol> People apparently forgot about recipies.
16:42:12 <int-e> tap water.
16:42:23 <LinearInterpol> which classify as Free Open Source Food.
16:42:51 <int-e> (I'm living in one of those privileged countries where tap water is actually drinkable.)
16:42:51 <Bike> well, you can copyright them, people just pirate the shit out of them or use ones old enough to be public domain
16:42:54 <Bike> much like jazz
16:43:16 <LinearInterpol> (Me too.)
16:43:18 -!- nooga has joined.
16:44:19 <mrhmouse> (Me too, technically. I don't recommend it.)
16:44:48 <LinearInterpol> I'm so far up north that nobody in the U.S cares.
16:44:56 <LinearInterpol> Yet we're still classified as a state.
16:45:15 <LinearInterpol> Great water up here.
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16:53:29 <boily> I'm so far up North that I'm at Canada.
16:57:38 <LinearInterpol> lol, hi boily.
16:59:00 <boily> how's the weather in your southernorth?
16:59:15 <LinearInterpol> feels like spring.
17:05:29 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
17:07:31 -!- Bike has joined.
17:16:18 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
17:17:51 -!- Bike has joined.
17:40:31 <fizzie> ~metar EFHK
17:40:31 <metasepia> EFHK 131720Z 32007KT CAVOK M13/M16 Q1014 NOSIG
17:40:38 <fizzie> Very springy.
17:41:59 -!- ^v has joined.
17:44:05 <LinearInterpol> ~metar KBGR
17:44:05 <metasepia> KBGR 131653Z 18008KT 10SM FEW200 06/M05 A2999 RMK AO2 PRESFR SLP157 T00611050
17:51:50 <fizzie> Here they keep doing those water quality lab tests, and the tap water keeps beating the commercial bottled options.
17:54:03 <fizzie> (Though apparently that's just because of chlorination and not sitting in storage for ages &c.)
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18:00:21 <kmc> oklopol: dude it's not "bullying" or "ganging up" to politely mention to someone when they have (often unintentionally) hurt someone
18:00:34 <kmc> people often respond with "oh i'm sorry" and then go on with their fucking lives
18:00:39 <kmc> people who are not you, that is
18:01:33 * LinearInterpol dives for cover.
18:02:01 <FireFly> Hm
18:02:19 <FireFly> I just got an idea for IOCCC. I guess I'll have to try to remember it for half a year
18:02:37 <LinearInterpol> FireFly: write it down!
18:02:41 <kmc> LinearInterpol: the point of "arguing about words" is that words shape the entire fucking world we live in
18:02:57 <LinearInterpol> oh for the love of.. we just stopped this man, don't bring it back up. :\
18:02:57 <kmc> it's totally disingenuous to say "you're just arguing about words!!!" when we are arguing about how human beings should treat other human beings
18:03:19 <LinearInterpol> sigh, that's not what I meant..
18:03:28 <kmc> and especially, about how human beings in a position of social dominance should treat human beings who are historically oppressed, often to the point of lethal violence
18:03:58 <LinearInterpol> look, all I was trying to say is that arguing is pointless, and that those two should get down to solving the problem of being offended with something akin to an apology.
18:04:12 * LinearInterpol exits this conversation. again. :\
18:04:25 <kmc> well I agree that arguing with oklopol is pointless
18:04:39 <kmc> I have actually changed people's minds with discussion in the past, and I've definitely had my mind changed
18:04:48 <kmc> I used to be a lot worse about this stuff!!
18:04:59 <kmc> we all learn from each other and get better
18:05:25 <kmc> I agree that by the time "discussion" progresses to "arguing" it's often of negative net value
18:05:34 <zzo38> If you have things to say, you can say it, but yes it is a good idea to try to learn better, instead.
18:05:39 <LinearInterpol> being offended essentially means that someone essentially took something from you, and you want something equivalent in return that'll make you happy again.
18:05:51 <kmc> I don't agree with that
18:05:55 <LinearInterpol> such as an apology, or a gift, or something.
18:06:01 <LinearInterpol> just something to quell the situation.
18:06:23 <kmc> it sounds like you are more interested in smoothing things over than in making our community more kind
18:06:35 -!- FreeFull has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
18:06:44 <LinearInterpol> if it makes everyone happy, then that means kindness.
18:06:50 <kmc> no it really doesn't
18:06:57 <LinearInterpol> drama over IRC sucks.
18:06:58 * LinearInterpol leaves.
18:07:14 <kmc> "making everyone happy" usually means making people in a position of power happy and making marginalized people decide to stay quiet
18:07:17 <kmc> i.e. continuing the status quo
18:07:20 -!- LinearInterpol has left ("Hack the planet.").
18:08:01 <kmc> god forbid we should have a channel that's 99.5% straight white men instead of 100%
18:09:43 <zzo38> It shouldn't matter if the channel is 99.5% or 100% straight white men; it is a completely irrelevant situation! If it ends up being 45% then that should be OK too, but if it ends up being something like 263% or -10% then clearly we have a problem, isn't it?
18:09:53 <kmc> :D
18:09:56 <kmc> zzo38 you are the best
18:09:58 -!- LinearInterpol has joined.
18:10:03 <kmc> wb LinearInterpol
18:10:06 <LinearInterpol> we done?
18:10:11 * boily hands LinearInterpol a zzo38
18:10:20 * LinearInterpol fumbles about with it.
18:10:43 <elliott> you sure ragequit and never came back over that drama
18:10:52 <elliott> for a whole two minutes and thirty-eight seconds
18:10:58 <LinearInterpol> it was a long forever, elliott.
18:11:14 <LinearInterpol> had to take a bathroom break, too. god it was boring.
18:11:24 <Bike> arguing is fundamentally irrational and since nobody actually has a serious problem it won't last,, see
18:11:32 <zzo38> I don't actually know about QUIT, but there was PART.
18:11:34 * LinearInterpol bashes his head on his desk.
18:11:51 <zzo38> LinearInterpol: How hard is the wood in your desk?
18:12:02 <LinearInterpol> hard.
18:12:08 <kmc> LinearInterpol: well I'm rapidly running out of fucks to give... if this is the kind of community y'all want to have then who am I to fight it
18:12:18 <LinearInterpol> but, no, I-
18:12:23 <zzo38> Hard enough to break your head?
18:12:23 <LinearInterpol> you're making assumptions. :(
18:12:29 <LinearInterpol> zzo38: at this rate, yes.
18:12:31 <Bike> assumptions based on what you are literally saying
18:12:43 <LinearInterpol> ffs.
18:12:49 <LinearInterpol> fine, you wanna do this, let's do this.
18:12:55 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o elliott.
18:12:58 -!- elliott has set channel mode: +q *!*@*.
18:13:00 <elliott> let's not
18:13:03 <elliott> and say we did
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18:15:24 -!- elliott has set channel mode: -q *!*@*.
18:15:26 -!- elliott has set channel mode: -o elliott.
18:16:05 <Bike> thanks mrhmouse, really feeling welcome here
18:17:10 <oklopol> "<kmc> well I agree that arguing with oklopol is pointless" i'm not sure what you guys actually want, i agree that i was wrong, why is that not enough?
18:17:23 <int-e> ow, why does 'hg grep' consider the whole history of files by default ...
18:17:34 <kmc> oklopol: nah, i'm done, thanks though
18:17:35 <zzo38> If it gets muted like that, post your message on #esoteric#shadow and then it will remain logged too
18:17:47 <zzo38> iint-e: I don't know.
18:18:01 <ion> Was there a reason for +q *!*@* instead of +m or was it just an arbitrary choice?
18:18:05 <zzo38> Can you tell it not to consider the whole history of files?
18:20:02 <oklopol> ok
18:21:31 <boily> meanwhile, https://github.com/Katee/quietnet doesn't work as well as thought.
18:24:13 <zzo38> ion: I wanted to know too, but now there is work-around regardless which way is done
18:24:56 <int-e> (So hg grep does not do what I expected it to do. Fine. Back to grep -r then.)
18:26:39 <kmc> oklopol: I missed your most clear admission that you were wrong, above
18:26:51 <kmc> thanks for admitting it :)
18:29:30 <int-e> boily: what's the use case for such a program, besides exfiltrating data to nearby servers?
18:30:21 <boily> int-e: no idea. the novelty is tempting, if only for a few minutes of relaxation between to tickets.
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18:34:07 <int-e> (I understand that the NSA has various technologies for bridging air gaps. Sound would be a fairly obvious choice.)
18:39:05 <boily> the POC uses PSK31. seems it needs two very close machines, with good quality audio equipment, and a noiseless environment for it to work reliably.
18:40:07 <boily> so, bridging the air is very unlikely, unless the NSA uses Secret Mutant Waves with Exceptional Compression. probably something tachyon based.
18:40:39 <FireFly> You never know with the NSA
18:42:46 <fizzie> How about that acoustic sidechannel thing? They got p. impressive results out of it, and that was just listening to the sounds of OpenSSL; it sounds rather likely that, with some active help from the server you're listening to, you could get better. (I mean, it doesn't have to be near ultrasound, it can be just some acoustic steganography.)
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18:44:48 <fizzie> Sorry, GnuPG.
18:45:15 <boily> if it's acoustic classification, with a constricted domain, that has already been proved with very interesting experiments.
18:45:27 <fizzie> http://www.cs.tau.ac.il/~tromer/acoustic/ "plain mobile phone placed next to the computer, or a more sensitive microphone placed 4 meters away" next server at a colo place doesn't sound entirely infeasible.
18:46:06 <fizzie> I guess those maybe don't come with microphones.
18:47:39 <fizzie> The keyboard-keys-from-typing-sounds one was funky too.
18:48:28 <boily> the one were they went into a medical clinic and gleaned off plenty of private informations :D
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18:49:31 <zzo38> At one time I could tell from the noise if the CPU is busy; I replaced the power supply now though.
18:50:04 <zzo38> With proper soundproofing/filters can you avoid this?
18:50:14 <fizzie> I can tell from the noise if the CPU is busy; but that's just the fans spinning up in response to more heat.
18:50:28 <boily> can you put a tinfoil hat on your desktop?
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18:51:14 <fizzie> "Conversely, a sufficiently strong wide-band noise source can mask the informative signals, though ergonomic concerns may render this unattractive." (Countermeasures section of the Q&A-format summary.)
18:51:39 <fizzie> "Why does your computer sound like a jet engine taking off?" "Oh, I'm just foiling NSA here."
18:51:47 <boily> “strong wideband noise source,” aka. “your cow orker's radio”
18:52:07 <zzo38> fizzie: Yes, I suppose the fans too, but I wasn't talking about fans.
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19:02:42 <FireFly> That reminds me of this "BadBIOS" thing from last year
19:03:02 <FireFly> http://arstechnica.com/security/2013/10/meet-badbios-the-mysterious-mac-and-pc-malware-that-jumps-airgaps/
19:03:39 <Bike> nice pic
19:05:01 <boily> so, what's the verdict on that? is it really real, or just an overhyped simili-scam?
19:06:03 <int-e> Signs point towards "real" (see NSA toy catalogue) but I have not seen any final verdict. (Then again I have not really been paying attention.)
19:07:08 <FireFly> People who I trust when it comes to security-related questions seem to believe it's real, anyway, but I haven't been paying much attention either
19:07:13 <int-e> And I'm not saying that this was the NSA, just that such technology does exist. It still sounds quite wild. At least USB thumb drives are a plausible attack vector.
19:08:25 <Bike> i didn't think bios/uefi-eating malware was uncommon
19:08:44 <kmc> remember also that the NSA catalog is 7 years old
19:09:24 <int-e> Bike: it's the detail that this one bridges airgaps that makes it so interesting.
19:09:56 <Bike> sure, the article just makes bios-eating sound uncommon in itself
19:10:33 <int-e> The main thing is that we don't have tools for finding such malware. It could be in any of the busmaster capable hardware devices, virtually all of which have their own firmware.
19:10:49 <kmc> throw your computer into a river
19:11:08 <Bike> computer proceeds to vibrate at a particular frequency, thus infecting the entire river
19:11:14 <zzo38> Don't trust a computer you cannot throw out of the window directly into the river.
19:11:22 <Bike> good advice
19:11:29 <int-e> we all know that it takes a steel foundry to really destroy malware.
19:12:05 <boily> is the St-Lawrence River good enough? it's long, it's large, it has fish.
19:12:16 <Bike> fish are a notorious attack vector
19:12:28 <Taneb> There's a church of St Lawrence along the road from me
19:13:32 <Bike> when dna computing based storage drives incorporated as your appendix become common y'all are fucked, imma gonna attack that shit
19:14:25 <boily> don't you dare append me, you vile scoundrel!
19:14:58 <Bike> but don't you see, boily... the appendix was in you all along
19:15:24 <boily> noooooooo! betrayed by my own body! damn you, internal organs and various tidbits!
19:15:31 <kmc> maybe we need to replace our airgaps with vacuum gaps
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19:17:21 <Bike> http://natsec.newamerica.net/nsa/analysis coo
19:19:18 <kmc> it seems like these days, one should always guess UTF-8 if the input is valid UTF-8
19:19:44 <kmc> how often will real world EUC-KR text happen to be valid UTF-8?
19:24:38 <FireFly> Well, I guess it's fair to guess ASCII if the input is also valid ASCII in addition to being valid UTF-8
19:25:16 <kmc> it depends on the purpose for which you're making a guess
19:26:01 <kmc> for most purposes i would rather guess UTF-8 because then you have *some* chance of handling high-bit bytes correctly
19:26:23 <kmc> also because there is no code but Unicode and UTF-8 is its transport
19:26:28 <FireFly> I suppose
19:26:54 <boily> inch'Unicode!
19:27:12 <Bike> iä iä
19:27:55 <Bike> oh, shit. fish have a disease called 'whirling disease'. that owns
19:28:09 <Bike> «Fish "whirl" forward in an awkward, corkscrew-like pattern instead of swimming normally, find feeding difficult, and are more vulnerable to predators.»
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19:28:20 <Bike> my computer virus is also a nematode
19:29:50 <Bike> i guess it would be more appropriate for it to be a computer /worm/, huh.
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19:32:22 <int-e> libchardet is a bit naive when it comes to probabilities. As far as I can make out, "ä" encodes an empty string; it's merely a "shift" token that switches a decoder into EU-KR mode.
19:33:11 <int-e> EUC-KR.
19:35:45 <int-e> and s/lib//; libchardet is a C++ thingy while I looked at the chardet Python thingy.
19:37:56 <int-e> Then again, by the looks of it, one of them is a direct port of the other.
19:39:04 <int-e> # Contributor(s):
19:39:05 <int-e> # Mark Pilgrim - port to Python
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19:46:33 <boily> how much effort woul be needed to unnaïvify chardet?
19:47:53 <shachaf> you know the thing where people say things that you more or less agree with, but they're so annoying about it that you feel bad about having an opinion similar to theirs
19:49:30 <kmc> yes
19:49:33 <kmc> do you have an example?
19:50:25 <shachaf> probably rude and pointless to name anyone in particular
19:50:51 <shachaf> maybe past versions of myself. what an obnoxious person :(
19:58:29 <int-e> boily: I don't know. For UTF-8, it takes 1 - (0.495)^n as the probability if only 0 < n < 6, where n is the number of characters (well, code points) parsed. That looks very ad hoc. For EUC-KR, it somehow uses character frequencies, but I have not figured out the details. So I don't know whether all those "confidences" are comparible. What's missing as well, I think, is some reasonable a priory distribution of character...
19:58:35 <int-e> ...encodings, so that Bayes' theorem can be applied.
20:02:17 <kmc> how about the universal prior
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20:04:25 <boily> int-e: the unnaïvification is untrivial, eh?
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20:20:11 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.stephenwolfram.com/publications/short-talk-about-richard-feynman/
20:20:34 <Phantom_Hoover> wolfram pushes boundaries of scraping the bottom of the barrel, makes breakthrough
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20:32:09 <Bike> "a priory", i like that
20:32:35 <Bike> makes me imagine a bunch of nuns hard at work doing math
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20:39:45 <boily> "In agro, in mathematica analysis complexam, certis de quavis ratione lineam moduli totum integrale est in complexu per vias plano."
20:40:08 <Bike> 'the quickest way to the reals is through the complex plane'?
20:41:57 <boily> who am I to question the Ways of our Complex Plane?
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21:24:21 <boily> callforjudgement: I like your hobbies.
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21:28:20 <kmc> really don't feel comfortable here anymore :/
21:30:34 <ais523> kmc: I left #esoteric a while back because it was no longer talking about esoprogramming
21:30:39 <ais523> and I don't really feel comfortable in social channels
21:30:49 <ais523> I put it back on autojoin, though, hoping that it had got better
21:31:45 <kmc> if i leave it might solve both of our problems
21:33:21 <ais523> kmc: you aren't really contributing to the problem, from my point of view
21:33:39 <ais523> except inasmuch as any channel with more than like 3 people is going to have differing opinions on what are and aren't acceptable offtopic subjects
21:34:31 <kmc> i'm mostly upset because we seem to value avoiding "drama" more than standing up to bigots
21:35:06 <ais523> I missed whatever it is that happened
21:35:29 <ais523> I feel that the best option, when possible, is to avoid giving people a chance to be bigoted in the first place
21:35:37 <ais523> but sadly you can't really do that with lax topicality rules
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21:36:51 <kmc> i asked oklopol not to use "retarded" as a pejorative and his response was to start defending the use of the word "gay" as a pejorative, even though he admits it's wrong, because he wanted to annoy me for being a "bully"
21:37:01 <kmc> that's something which could easily come up in discussion of esolangs
21:37:10 <kmc> for example if i call someone's esolang "retarded"
21:37:21 <ais523> right
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21:37:28 <ais523> the channel used to be a lot /worse/ in that respect, actually
21:37:40 <ais523> but most of the offenders just left naturally
21:37:41 <kmc> yeah, i've heard
21:38:43 <ais523> I would prefer it if people just used accuracy in their pejoratives
21:39:17 <ais523> something like "stupid" would be fine, IMO, but saying "retarded" just creates confusion while offending people at the same time, which seems strictly worse
21:39:24 <kmc> *nod*
21:40:26 <kmc> i'm frustrated less by oklopol (who admitted in the end he was wrong) and more by all the other people who were like "ugh DRAMA" or "you're just arguing about words", as though how we treat each other isn't important
21:40:58 <Taneb> kmc, if I was one of the annoying people I'm sorry
21:41:06 <kmc> Taneb: I didn't observe you to say anything at all, but thank you
21:41:47 <Taneb> Also, on a completely different and probably more on topic note, I am still trying to see if I can get an audience in front of which I can create an esolang live
21:41:52 <ais523> I have problems moderating small-ish channels like this, I'm more used trying to moderate a channel with 1000+ users without having mod powers
21:42:02 <kmc> that sounds hellish
21:42:14 <ais523> when you can normally assume that there will be some trolls/troublemakers who will try to make things worse no matter what
21:42:27 <ais523> my normal approach is to attempt to drown them out, which involves making a distraction
21:42:40 <ais523> all this doesn't actually work in #esoteric, but I normally attempt it anyway because habit
21:42:41 <Bike> Taneb: target IBNIZ for extra nerd cred
21:43:16 <ais523> Taneb: create an esolang, as in spec? interp?
21:43:30 <Taneb> Spec
21:44:42 <nys> hey hey guys i have an idea for an esolang
21:44:56 <ais523> nys: go on
21:45:24 <nys> alright so the idea of languages like iota and jot and SK is to make the smallest number of primitives that you can construct everything else from, right?
21:45:42 <ais523> nys: yes, functionally
21:46:33 <nys> what if the goal was instead to find a relatively small set of combinators that you could transform practical algorithms into compactly
21:46:44 <ais523> nys: that's where SKI come from
21:46:51 <kmc> sounds like golfscript
21:46:52 <nys> SKI isn't compact though
21:46:53 <ais523> although it's not that compact
21:47:18 <ais523> the concatenative languages aim for practical combinators, often
21:47:29 <ais523> something like Underlambda, which is unfinished, from the eso side
21:47:32 <ais523> or Joy from the non-eso side
21:47:56 <Taneb> ais523, how is Underlambda going, by the way
21:47:58 <ais523> even Underload's combinators aren't too bad ( (), ^ and : are Turing-complete by themselves, the rest are basically just there to allow you to approach a sensible coding style)
21:48:05 <ais523> Taneb: I haven't worked on it for a while
21:48:16 <ais523> especially now that type system design (and thus language design) is my day job
21:48:22 <nys> i was thinking of searching exhaustively through the possible combinators for a particular program
21:48:34 <Bike> that takes a lotta time
21:48:40 <Bike> even for very basic programs
21:48:43 <nys> :<
21:48:50 <ais523> also it's impossible in general, you provably can't compare functions in general
21:49:00 <ais523> although you can in many practically useful special cases
21:49:16 <Bike> see http://blog.regehr.org/archives/923
21:49:31 <Taneb> ais523, oh? Where/on what are you working?
21:49:32 <Bike> i've only read the original paper tho
21:49:51 <ais523> Taneb: Birmingham University
21:50:00 <ais523> *University of Birmingham
21:50:52 <ais523> actually, the "you can't compare functions" thing came up just a couple of days ago
21:51:17 <ais523> circuit equivalence is decidable
21:51:30 <ais523> thus, any language without decidable equivalence obviously is unsuitable for compilation into hardware
21:51:46 <ais523> which is a really nice quick sanity check for rejecting possible type systems
21:52:39 <nys> wait what
21:53:47 <ais523> digital circuit equivalence, that is
21:54:03 <ais523> I'm not sure about analog, it probably is too but real numbers screw things up
21:54:27 <ais523> one method that's inefficient but works is to convert the entire thing to a state machine
21:54:29 <nys> this is a world i was not aware of until just now
21:55:17 <nys> well if you have a function that just takes in an inductively defined datatype, aren't there only so many cases to prove equivalent results for?
21:55:44 <ais523> nys: well one thing you can do is restrict the types of loops, by requiring all loops to be bounded in advance
21:55:51 <ais523> e.g. by the size of the data type you passed in
21:56:06 <ais523> if you do that, you have a "primitive recursive" function, equivalence is decidable for those
21:56:20 <ais523> but nonetheless, a lot of practical programs work with primitive recursive functions only
21:56:29 <nys> is Y one of those?
21:56:46 <ais523> no, Y can't be done with primitive recursion only, it needs general recursion
21:57:28 <ais523> actually the point of the Y combinator is to show that untyped lambda calculus supports general recursion without the need for extra combinators/constants
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21:57:46 <nys> this problem is starting to not sound like a good match for an untyped kinda system :D
21:58:06 <ais523> (btw, the Y combinator is a specific implementation of a fixed-point combinator; normally people use "fix" if referring to fixed-point combinators in general)
21:58:24 <nys> ah
21:58:42 <nys> i'm spotty in general
21:59:00 <ais523> sort-of like the difference between a fast fourier transform and a discrete fourier transform
21:59:50 <Taneb> I have a 9:30 practical in the morning :(
21:59:51 <kmc> also there are two different Y combinators, one for strict (call-by-value) semantics and one for non-strict (call-by-name)
21:59:58 <kmc> Taneb: that's not a very practical time is it
22:00:13 <Taneb> kmc, it means I have to get up earlier
22:00:24 <Taneb> Oh wait that was a funny
22:00:27 <Taneb> Sorry, I'm tired
22:00:33 <nys> wow i didn't know the distinction between fft and dft until now either
22:00:50 <ais523> kmc: wow, that's such a weird way of looking at the difference between call-by-value and call-by-name
22:00:59 <ais523> I'm rather skewed on this because I work almost exclusively with call-by-name
22:01:26 <ais523> and see call-by-value as sugar for creating an assignable variable and initializing it with your function argument
22:01:51 <kmc> hm
22:02:06 <kmc> in a system where assignment forces evaluation?
22:02:39 <ais523> kmc: yeah
22:03:23 <ais523> actually it's the only way to force evaluation atm, apart from the FFI
22:03:30 <ais523> and the if statement
22:03:38 <ais523> and the while statement
22:04:03 -!- Bike has joined.
22:04:04 <nys> speaking of which have you heard of that thing showing how you convert an evaluator into an abstract machine or back?
22:04:22 <Bike> futumura projections?
22:04:25 <kmc> most languages also have strict arithmetic because they want to use machine arithmetic
22:04:30 <kmc> but it's not the only way to do arithmetic
22:05:02 <ais523> kmc: the implementation we're working on is a bit weird, we use hardcoded connections between circuits
22:05:34 <ais523> which basically means that we can't have any values more complex than integers
22:05:46 -!- FreeFull has joined.
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22:10:29 <ais523> we have a paper where we implemented a recursive Fibonacci on this thing
22:11:02 <ais523> it's even less efficient than the normal recursive Fibonacci because it has to go and subtract all the 1s from the argument over and over again
22:11:13 <kmc> heh
22:11:44 <ais523> we managed to get it published anyway though
22:12:02 <kmc> i like that recursive fib is an example of an algorithm where computing f(n) takes f(n) steps
22:12:04 <Bike> lol
22:12:07 <ais523> http://www.cs.bham.ac.uk/~drg/papers/icfp11.pdf
22:12:16 <Bike> kmc: isn't that connected to euclid's algorithm somehow
22:12:31 <Bike> or maybe just the golden ratio. it's e-y
22:12:54 <kmc> the closed form formula for fib(n) uses φ yeah
22:13:04 <ais523> kmc: isn't that true of pretty much any algorithm that just forms numbers via adding up 1s?
22:13:15 <kmc> sounds like it
22:13:23 <Taneb> Doesn't f(n+1)/f(n) approach phi in the limit?
22:13:33 <ais523> Taneb: yes
22:13:49 <ais523> this is because φ²=φ+1
22:14:00 <Bike> well i mean, i know that, i'm trying to remember if this is connected to the time complexity bit
22:14:29 -!- mrhmouse has joined.
22:14:43 <Bike> i have half a blog post written about learning linear algebra via one of the less stupid fib algorithms
22:15:01 <kmc> > let fibs = fix ((0:) . scanl (+) 1) in (fibs !! 1000) / (fibs !! 999)
22:15:01 <Phantom_Hoover> <kmc> the closed form formula for fib(n) uses φ yeah
22:15:02 <lambdabot> 1.6180339887498951
22:15:06 <ais523> the stupid one is one of the better recursion benchmarks, though
22:15:10 <Phantom_Hoover> also the other solution to that one equation
22:15:24 <kmc> > (1 + sqrt 5) / 2
22:15:25 <lambdabot> 1.618033988749895
22:15:34 <kmc> wow pretty close
22:15:42 <Bike> does that converge slow?
22:15:46 <Bike> like the rational approximations do
22:15:58 <Taneb> > 13/5
22:15:59 <lambdabot> 2.6
22:16:01 <Taneb> Wait
22:16:05 <Taneb> > 13/8
22:16:06 <lambdabot> 1.625
22:16:06 <Bike> gj
22:16:13 <Taneb> > 21/13
22:16:14 <lambdabot> 1.6153846153846154
22:16:22 <Taneb> > 34/21
22:16:23 <lambdabot> 1.619047619047619
22:16:38 <Taneb> I don't actually know how fast convergences generally are
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22:17:19 <Bike> well, like, the contfrac for phi is 1/(1+1/(1+1/...)) and that gives the best rational approximations
22:17:22 <Bike> however, they all suck
22:17:33 <boily> ~eval 1 + 1 / (1 + 1 / (1 + 1 / (1 + 1 / 1)))
22:17:36 <metasepia> Error (1):
22:17:38 <boily> ~eval 1 + 1 / (1 + 1 / (1 + 1 / (1 + 1 / 1)))
22:17:39 <metasepia> 1.6
22:17:43 <Bike> like that
22:17:58 <kmc> > let f x = 1 + 1/x in iterate f 1
22:17:59 <lambdabot> [1.0,2.0,1.5,1.6666666666666665,1.6,1.625,1.6153846153846154,1.6190476190476...
22:18:09 <boily> hey, two significative numbers is pretty good in my book.
22:18:12 <kmc> i like how it goes up and down
22:19:38 <ais523> oh, the other thing I liked in that paper, was that I got to use Algol 60 for a serious reason, even though it was 2011
22:19:49 <Taneb> :)
22:20:37 <ais523> my supervisor was surprised that I managed to get hold of a working Algol 60 compiler after this long
22:20:48 <Bike> let's see, the square root of two is [1;1,2,1,2,1,2,...] i think, how do you haskell that
22:21:02 <ais523> > 1 ++ cycle [1,2]
22:21:03 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Show.Show a0)
22:21:03 <lambdabot> arising from a use of `M60779866017779691048889.show_M60779866017779691048...
22:21:03 <lambdabot> The type variable `a0' is ambiguous
22:21:03 <lambdabot> Possible fix: add a type signature that fixes these type variable(s)
22:21:03 <lambdabot> Note: there are several potential instances:
22:21:07 <Bike> er no it's [1;2,2,2,2] maybe
22:21:13 <Bike> yes.
22:21:20 <Bike> except with a bajillion 2's obv
22:21:26 <ais523> lambdabot: that's a really useless error message
22:21:31 <FireFly> > 1 : cycle [2]
22:21:32 <lambdabot> [1,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2...
22:21:37 <ais523> oh right
22:21:38 <Taneb> > let f x = 2 + 1/x in iterate f 1
22:21:39 <lambdabot> [1.0,3.0,2.3333333333333335,2.4285714285714284,2.411764705882353,2.414634146...
22:21:47 <Taneb> Not like that
22:21:51 <Bike> noted
22:21:55 <ais523> the problem being that lambdabot had enough definitions floating around that it could somehow concatenate an int to a list?
22:22:04 <ais523> :t ++
22:22:05 <lambdabot> parse error on input `++'
22:22:06 <ais523> :t (++)
22:22:07 <lambdabot> [a] -> [a] -> [a]
22:22:14 <shachaf> > map (\x -> 1 + 1 / x) $ iterate (\x -> 2 + 1 / x) 1
22:22:15 <lambdabot> [2.0,1.3333333333333333,1.4285714285714286,1.411764705882353,1.4146341463414...
22:23:03 <Bike> see, those are p. good
22:23:39 <FireFly> > let f x = 1 + 1/x in iterate f 1 !! 1e6
22:23:40 <lambdabot> Could not deduce (GHC.Real.Fractional GHC.Types.Int)
22:23:40 <lambdabot> arising from the literal `1e6'
22:23:40 <lambdabot> from the context (GHC.Real.Fractional a)
22:23:40 <lambdabot> bound by the inferred type of it :: GHC.Real.Fractional a => a
22:23:40 <lambdabot> at Top level
22:23:45 <FireFly> > let f x = 1 + 1/x in iterate f 1 !! 1000000
22:23:46 <lambdabot> *Exception: stack overflow
22:24:58 <shachaf> > let sums = map (foldr (\x y -> x + 1 / y) 1) . inits in sums (1 : repeat 2)
22:24:59 <lambdabot> [1.0,2.0,1.3333333333333333,1.4285714285714286,1.411764705882353,1.414634146...
22:25:28 <shachaf> @let sums = map (foldr (\x y -> x + 1 / y) 1) . inits
22:25:29 <lambdabot> Defined.
22:25:30 <shachaf> hth
22:25:39 <Bike> > sums (1 : cycle [1,2])
22:25:41 <lambdabot> [1.0,2.0,1.5,1.75,1.7142857142857144,1.7333333333333334,1.7307692307692308,1...
22:25:45 <Bike> > sqrt 3
22:25:47 <lambdabot> 1.7320508075688772
22:26:11 <FireFly> ) (1 + %)^:(<10) 1
22:26:12 <jconn> FireFly: 1 2 1.5 1.66667 1.6 1.625 1.61538 1.61905 1.61765 1.61818
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22:26:37 -!- metasepia has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:26:43 <FireFly> ) (1 + %)^:1e6 ] 1
22:26:44 <jconn> FireFly: 1.61803
22:27:00 <Bike> > let convergents = sums
22:27:01 <lambdabot> not an expression: `let convergents = sums'
22:27:08 <Bike> @let convergents = sums
22:27:09 <lambdabot> Defined.
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22:27:51 <Bike> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_letters_used_in_mathematics_and_science this is great
22:28:41 <FireFly> Um
22:28:45 <FireFly> Isn't there another similar list somewhere?
22:28:50 <FireFly> On Wikipedia I mean
22:29:07 <shachaf> Bike: now you gotta turn it into a song
22:29:17 <Bike> i'm no lehrer.
22:29:19 <kmc> i also saw Ш used for a pulse train i.e. a function f(x) which takes on the value 1 on a set of measure zero and 0 elsewhere
22:29:22 <kmc> v. cute
22:29:26 <Bike> ha.
22:29:34 <FireFly> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_letters_used_in_mathematics
22:29:43 <FireFly> Seems a bit.. redundant?
22:30:30 <kmc> probably arabic letters have been used in algebra
22:30:35 <kmc> but i'm not sure
22:30:40 <shachaf> what about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxcar_function
22:30:41 <kmc> maybe they used greek out of Tradition
22:31:18 <Bike> i don't think algebra was symbolic enough during the persian period
22:31:31 <Bike> they'd write out "a quantity divided by four" or wetf
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22:32:08 <kmc> ah
22:32:23 <kmc> (oh was it from persia and not arabia? same script i guess, anyway)
22:32:33 <Bike> probably both
22:32:45 <Bike> better than hindustan though, where they'd write it out in verse
22:32:48 <Bike> how's that for eso
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22:33:53 <Bike> http://31.media.tumblr.com/db46eea7c7b668193a6a7dbf4e9f636b/tumblr_mzbi1t3gol1rb9lj8o1_1280.png in doge news
22:36:27 <kmc> is that ''real''
22:36:56 <shachaf> is ''real'' ''real''
22:37:06 <shachaf> i read one of the three books you gave me to read
22:38:56 <kmc> which one
22:39:15 <shachaf> The Eye in the Pyramid
22:39:36 <Bike> were the other two also illuminatus
22:40:03 <shachaf> yes
22:40:20 <shachaf> but somehow starting the second one is more effort than continuing to a new chapter
22:41:07 <Bike> my illuminatus copy has all three in one, very convenient
22:41:24 <shachaf> so does this one
22:42:00 <Bike> o
22:42:22 <kmc> "India is marking three years since its last reported polio case, a landmark in the global battle against the disease."
22:42:32 <Bike> sweet
22:42:39 <Bike> isn't it still bad in... pakistan? i wanna say pakistan
22:43:05 <Bike> afghanistan, nigeria, and pakistan
22:43:12 <olsner> I'd sort of guess some "first world" country getting polio back due to vaccination paranoia
22:43:53 <Bike> well, you need to have some extant polio for that, and it's pretty totally eradicated in many countries
22:44:25 <kmc> yeah I think we're a long way from that still
22:44:55 <kmc> there are other disases already coming back for that reason, though :/
22:45:20 <Bike> the cdc says that there hasn't been a polio case in the US since 1979
22:45:37 <Bike> i don't think the virus sticks around in animals and stuff like, say, plague, which is still extant in the US
22:47:01 <Bike> " Poliovirus is however strictly a human pathogen, and does not naturally infect any other species" yeah
22:52:09 -!- oerjan has joined.
22:56:00 <kmc> that's convenient
22:58:01 <Bike> of course, HIV is the same way, and that's been kind of hard to eradicate >_>
23:00:53 <kmc> yeah well at least it can't be spread through contaminated food or water
23:01:55 <kmc> eradicating polio in Pakistan is harder because the Taliban keeps killing the medical workers
23:02:08 <oerjan> Bike: well i suspect some apes may be included too. but they're probably not a major infection source at this time.
23:03:15 <oerjan> also, you've missed syria; polio has reappeared there during the war.
23:03:19 <kmc> :/
23:03:38 -!- Bike_ has joined.
23:04:25 <Bike_> oerjan: HIV is a mutant of the one that infects chimps
23:04:37 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
23:04:44 <Bike_> oerjan: and yeah i heard about that, i was just glancing at a WHO page. i don't think it's actually epidemic there though? just like, a problem
23:04:47 -!- Bike_ has changed nick to Bike.
23:07:29 <Phantom_Hoover> <Bike> of course, HIV is the same way, and that's been kind of hard to eradicate >_>
23:07:33 <Phantom_Hoover> can't vaccinate though
23:07:58 <kmc> not yet
23:08:04 <kmc> :)
23:08:09 <Phantom_Hoover> vaccination means you can eliminate transmission in the human population, not being a zoonosis means there aren't any animal reservoirs to pop up after the vaccination passes over
23:08:22 <Phantom_Hoover> (why am i saying this you surely know better than i)
23:08:46 <Bike> yeah, i was just thinking of zoonosis
23:09:03 <Bike> i wanted to come up with an example that was actually a virus, i mean plague is bacteria, or somethin
23:09:43 <olsner> pig flu, bird flu, zebra flu, etc
23:10:24 <Phantom_Hoover> flu flu
23:10:28 <Bike> well those are species-specific too, they just mutate
23:10:37 <Bike> there are virusy things that infect viruses, i think. weird shit
23:11:51 <oerjan> what's the current hip recursion meme, i think yo dawg and inception have both gone stale
23:12:25 <Phantom_Hoover> maybe recursion memes have gone stale
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23:12:37 <shachaf> maybe we don't need another one
23:12:45 <Bike> also stuff like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viroid
23:12:46 <kmc> there's some liquid water in my kitchen at 120°C
23:12:47 <Phantom_Hoover> we will always need recursion memes
23:12:53 <oerjan> maybe we can make it a meme that recursion memes have gone stale
23:12:56 <Bike> my chemistry textbook described viruses as "large molecules" which kind of rules
23:12:59 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc, throw sand at it
23:13:04 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: yo dawg i heard you like recursion memes
23:15:49 * oerjan suddenly imagines little nanobot drones flying around vaccinating wild birds against flu
23:16:23 <oerjan> i suppose micro or milli may also do
23:16:48 -!- atrapado has joined.
23:16:53 <Phantom_Hoover> bees
23:16:57 <Phantom_Hoover> bees with vaccine stings
23:17:00 <oerjan> they could look like mosquitos, and handle malaria at the same time
23:17:16 <Phantom_Hoover> the vaccine is also mosquito poison
23:17:40 <Jafet> Eradicate mosquitoes by 2050
23:17:43 <oerjan> you don't need to eradicate mosquitos if you eradicate malaria. of course you may want to anyway.
23:19:14 <kmc> Bike: you're a large molecule
23:19:46 <kmc> viruses that infect viruses? what?
23:20:12 <kmc> oerjan: there might be nasty ecological consequences to eradicating mosquitos
23:20:21 <Bike> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satellite_virus
23:20:41 <Bike> it's um... once you get down to this level everything gets very blurry
23:20:41 <oerjan> kmc: which is why i didn't suggest it. well also a slight romantic disgust of eradicating species.
23:20:46 <kmc> remember when mao tried to eradicate sparrows because they eat the crops and it turns out they also eat locusts which eat the crops way harder
23:21:10 <kmc> 359 nucleotides wow
23:21:21 <Bike> yeah
23:21:50 <kmc> Tomato bushy stunt? Turnip crinkle?
23:22:04 <oerjan> kmc: i suppose that's part of his 30% bad hth
23:22:52 <kmc> some of you incl ais523 might like https://twitter.com/fbz/status/422844456958971904
23:23:09 <ais523> thanks for the direct link
23:23:15 <kmc> oerjan: only 30% bad?
23:23:16 <ais523> the #! nonsense has a tendency of not working properly
23:23:24 <kmc> oh I haven't seen the #! nonsense in a while
23:23:44 <oerjan> kmc: that's official!
23:23:49 <ais523> maybe they got rid of it
23:23:51 <ais523> I hope they did
23:24:36 <Bike> kmc: tobacco mosaic, being the first virus found, has a ton of research on it, and i guess it was easiest to spread out into other plants
23:25:39 <kmc> yep
23:26:31 <oerjan> is there a mosaic virus that does rule 110 patterns twh
23:26:46 <kmc> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Textile_cone.JPG
23:29:38 <Bike> model species are so weird, i have a book on muscle that uses a lot of rabbit psoas, and guess what the lab i'm working in does twenty years later
23:35:21 <olsner> what's rabbit psoas? a kind of stew?
23:36:43 <shachaf> i like stew but i prefer stew made without rabbits or psoas
23:37:24 <Bike> olsner: filet mignon
23:41:47 <kmc> that makes me think of rabbit phoas or rabbit ptas
23:44:16 <oerjan> rabbit phở
23:44:25 <kmc> nom
23:44:44 <kmc> Việt Nom
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23:44:50 <kmc> hi Sgeo
23:46:45 <Bike> the psoas is a muscle in the back that is also filet mignon
23:49:19 <nooga> this is
23:49:23 <nooga> no
23:49:24 <nooga> nothing
23:49:34 <nooga> actually i'm pretty pissed off
23:53:30 <Bike> why, it's tasty
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