00:00:24 "Subject: Eris is the main object, Dysnomia the small grey disk just above it." Oh, spam subject lines. 00:01:20 a mistake of cosmic proportions 00:01:23 I was hoping for something astronomical, but it's one of these spam messages I don't really "get", where the body also has just some random text and there's no attempt to actually sell/scam anything. 00:01:56 "While at Yale, Shevlin also developed a passion for the new sport of automobile racing. In 1891, he suffered a fall and an internal injury. In 1907, he moved to Vancouver and was also active in real estate. Another fight broke out in early spring 1915." 00:02:01 That's the entire contents. 00:02:18 Both the plaintext and HTML versions, and the HTML version hasn't got any links. 00:02:23 It’s to add noise to spam filters. 00:03:30 Huh. Plans within plans. 00:04:14 http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Discussion.aspx?multiverseid=241831 00:04:30 "one day i want to cancel this card. just for fun." 00:05:07 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 00:05:55 ion: huh that's fiendish if true 00:06:12 Sgeo: what if you have an "Instants cost you {1} less to play"? then it might even be the right play 00:08:17 Procrastination is bad and umbrellas are :( 00:13:18 ais523: Yes, or maybe in a game with more than two players you might also want to use Cancel on it. 00:14:47 -!- tromp has joined. 00:16:09 -!- ter2 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:17:07 I have read about someone who had a deck with a very large number of Islands and one Battle of Wits, and managed to win with that. 00:17:41 I noticed I have the line ":ter2!~tertu@143.44.70.199 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer" in the same position in two IRC windows. 00:18:13 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:18:25 -!- tromp has joined. 00:18:46 -!- nooga has joined. 00:20:44 http://magiccards.info/ds/en/114.html 00:20:57 Are there ways to fight against that other than winning fast (well, I guess 20 turns is a long time)? 00:22:28 Sgeo: "exile target artifact" effects is the most obvious 00:22:37 you could also use a card that removes counters 00:22:51 or bounce it (Boomerang, etc.) 00:24:08 "In tournaments, you must be able to shuffle your entire deck within a reasonable amount of time." 00:24:31 http://magiccards.info/isd/en/61.html this seems awesome for fighting against miller decks 00:24:46 * coppro wonders if he can relate topological graph theory to programming languages 00:26:32 hmm, i guess cards like Vorel of the Hull Clade can double the jams on Darksteel Reactor 00:27:43 If you manage to pick Darksteel Reactor in a draft, then see if you have enough defense and counterspell then maybe it can help you to win with such a thing. 00:28:54 (Limited formats are the only formats I ever play; I don't like the Constructed formats.) 00:35:21 I think I can actually afford to play Magic now 00:35:55 Ooh, PokerTH allows spectators now 00:40:40 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:41:16 -!- tromp has joined. 00:45:34 How much money can you expect to lose on average if you play Limited formats and sell all cards you manage to get after the tournament is finished? 00:45:55 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 00:46:15 zzo38: that's been tested very extensively on Magic Online, the answer is "if you're a good player, you make money, so long as you're careful to normally play against people worse than yourself" 00:47:33 You can sell your virtual cards on MGO? 00:47:41 MTGO 00:47:48 Sgeo: yeah, but only for MTGO currency 00:48:02 however, you can then use the currency to enter more MTGO tournaments 00:48:15 And I need real currency to buy MTGO currency I assume, if I don't sell cards 00:48:16 so you end up not spending any real money, and gaining more and more MTGO currency over time 00:48:42 ais523: What if you play in just normal tournaments in a store or anime convention or something? 00:48:51 The whole real money thing is what bothered me most about MTGO, but... I actually have money now 00:48:54 (Rather than being careful to pick the opponents) 00:49:08 Sgeo: it's still really expensive, though 00:49:13 zzo38: that's worse than needing real money -- you need real money AND need to take care of your cards 00:49:29 but can you sell your virtual cards on MtGox 00:49:32 (not anymore) 00:49:46 "(not anymore)"? 00:49:53 ais523: :( 00:50:12 I... guess I don't know if the fun I can imagine having on MTGO is worth the cost :/ 00:51:29 I used to have enough fun playing Magic to be worth the cost, but then Lorwyn was released, and I stopped having fun 00:51:38 Sgeo: The cards would be sold right at the tournament though, right after it is finished, I mean; how much would you expect to lose on average? 00:51:54 Don't really want to sell cards 00:52:39 Why? 00:52:40 Sgeo: MtGox stands for Magic: the Gathering Online Exchange 00:52:40 really 00:52:50 it started as a place to sell magic cards, before they got into this newfangled "Bitcoin" thing 00:53:05 whoa, whoa, whoa 00:53:14 i thought it was an online exchange for magic: the gathering 00:53:21 not an exchange for magic: the gathering online 00:53:23 which one is it 00:53:25 kmc is telling the truth, if Wikipedia is telling the truth 00:53:27 If I want to play Magic: the Gathering or something on computer, I would prefer to use different software which has open source and allows putting in your own cards and all that stuff too 00:53:31 shachaf: i'm not sure 00:53:56 zzo38: I used Apprentice Way Back In The Day 00:53:59 zzo38: the convenience of having the software understand the meaning of the cards overrides that for me 00:54:34 Sgeo: Yes, to write a software that supports it. In fact I had ideas like that too! 00:55:08 That could compile card texts with various annotations into a Haskell code. 00:56:54 should i get a bunch of magic: the gathering cards 00:57:26 shachaf: I don't recommend it; you don't need any. 00:57:55 don't need any for what? 00:58:00 They will give you some when you enter, and you can sell them back afterward. 00:58:24 who will 00:58:57 my coworkers play it a lot but in general there is no selling or buying of cards 01:00:33 The tournament, if you pay the entry fee they will give you three packs of cards. You can resell them immediately afterward. 01:00:44 Basic land cards can be borrowed for free. 01:01:23 is the entry fee similar to the cost of three packs of cards 01:01:38 Unfortunately, I don't know. 01:01:50 shachaf: it's a bit more than the cost of three packs of cards, traditionally 01:01:57 lol surprise there 01:01:57 But if you win the tournament generally you will be given an extra pack. 01:02:22 `run olist 937 # Sgeo already did this but HackEgo was gone 01:02:27 I don't trust myself with physical cards anymore 01:02:28 olist 937: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly 01:02:44 oerjan: No! The message has to start with "`olist" deliberately. 01:02:53 (But it already did once, so that's OK) 01:03:20 zzo38: that's your interpretation. 01:03:34 i search for my nick, not `olist. 01:03:46 `relcome HackEgo 01:03:49 ​HackEgo: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: . (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) 01:03:58 zzo38: See, so oerjan did `run olist, so that there would only be one message starting with `olist in the logs. 01:04:04 oerjan: But your nick willl appear in various other messages too. 01:04:07 It's ideal. 01:04:19 shachaf: Yes that is what I mentioned second time. (Also, `run allows you to add comments afterward, like is done there.) 01:04:38 So what oerjan did is ideal. 01:04:46 zzo38: of course, and i want to see those too, which is why i search for my nick. 01:05:42 zzo38: anyway the reason i did it now was because some nicks were not mentioned the last time. although only FireFly it seems, who saw the `olist anyway. 01:05:53 Ah, OK. 01:12:21 -!- nooodl has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 01:15:19 `addquote Note to self: if a recipe says "serves 4", I am not physically able to eat it all in one sitting 01:15:23 1158) Note to self: if a recipe says "serves 4", I am not physically able to eat it all in one sitting 01:17:07 Only 4? 01:17:25 -!- tromp has joined. 01:17:30 A deck with 60 Plains would be tournament-legal, right? 01:17:38 Yes. 01:17:43 60 trains 01:17:51 It would be *bad*, but perfectly legal. 01:17:57 -!- rodgort has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 01:19:04 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 01:19:07 -!- rodgort has joined. 01:19:09 A deck of 600 Plains would *also* be tournament legal. (assuming you can shuffle that in the time allotted) 01:25:13 how good does the shuffle need to be 01:25:21 indistinguishable from random by any polynomial time turing machine? 01:27:25 Unspecified, but given that tournaments are human-judge-governed, "enough that you don't piss the judge off". 01:27:59 whats a plain 01:29:47 A Plains is a Magic card. Its type is Basic Land -- Plains. It has no text. 01:30:49 sounds pretty plain 01:30:58 but it has the intrinsic ability "{T}: Add {W} to your mana pool" 01:31:18 Yes, it has the land subtype Plains. 01:32:30 Some versions have a huge {W} symbol in their text box, does that count as text? 01:32:32 plain ol' land 01:32:42 Sgeo: No. 01:33:05 Versions with "{T}: Add {W} to your mana pool" or some variation thereof also have no text. 01:33:50 whoa, whoa, whoa, why not 01:34:10 Because the rules say so. 01:34:51 where 01:34:57 In essence, the card's printed contents say absolutely nothing about what the card's properties are. 01:35:10 obligatory "i'd tap that" 01:35:40 shachaf: 108.1 01:37:55 -!- realzies has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 01:39:18 -!- realzies has joined. 01:41:43 -!- peapodamus has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:43:30 -!- peapodamus has joined. 01:43:47 I think that is silly that the rules would say it has no text. 01:44:19 I also think other rules of Magic: the Gathering also are no good or are too klugy or other reasons. 01:45:12 do you have a list 01:45:28 I don't think I did actually write down a list, unfortunately. 01:45:36 If not it's pretty trivial to make one. 01:45:45 But I also think "Planeswalker" is a bad name for a card type. 01:45:49 pikhq: Yes, that is true. 01:46:27 The MTG rules are really *blatantly* a kludge. 01:47:55 Yes, a lot, and I have a lot of idea to fix. I also hate that they removed mana burn; it is a very strategical importance. But a good thing they fixed is chaing the name of "remove from game" zone to "exile" zone; now is more sensible that part, at least. 01:48:17 (Since, such zone are really still part of the game.) 01:48:33 i just want to play rummy. 01:48:41 those cards have no text and everyone likes it that way! 01:49:00 Bike: OK, then play rummy. There is several different kind of rummy game, too. 01:49:11 can i play rummy with Magic cards 01:49:30 Bike: I don't know. Possibly you can figure out a way. 01:49:36 At least things don't gain Substance anymore. 01:49:46 I know you can play rummy with Yomi cards though. 01:50:15 are you allowed to tap artifacts if they don't have an activated ability that costs {T} 01:50:29 shachaf: Only if something says so, I think. 01:50:35 shachaf: Not unless something lets you, no. 01:52:25 so what's with Howling Mine () 01:52:50 is that just written that way in case something else can cause it to be tapped? 01:53:09 isn't yomi the samurai's arrows in nethack 01:53:28 It is written that way explicitly so it doesn't function if something causes it to be tapped. 01:53:49 Bike: That isn't what I meant. 01:54:22 *Ah*. It's really old in part. Way back when, continuous artifacts didn't work when they became tapped for whatever reason. 01:54:33 The wording is to preserve that functionality. 01:54:48 shachaf: Howling Mine could be good to cause opponents running out of cards more fastly, I suppose, if you have ways to replenish your draw pile from your discard pile or something like that. 01:55:08 There are cards that cause artifacts to become tapped, FWIW. 01:55:15 sure 01:55:18 There's even some that let you tap another artifact as a cost. 01:55:22 right 01:55:38 But ultimately, it's a matter of that being one heck of an old card. 01:56:46 when something says you may return it from your graveyard to the battlefield, does that mean that it has to have been in the battlefield in the past? 01:56:56 e.g. if you discard it from your hand, you can't use that ability? 01:57:04 shachaf: No it doesn't mean it has to be. 01:57:22 But if it tries to put back a Instant or Sorcery it just remains where it is, I think. 01:58:44 -!- copumpkin has changed nick to meconium. 01:58:49 if something gets a bunch of jams and then goes to your graveyard, scavenge will just use the printed power on it, right? 01:59:02 printer jams? 01:59:13 +1/+1 jams 01:59:33 or other kinds i suppose 02:00:05 kick out the jams 02:03:15 I also don't like the rule that auras that are also creatures are discarded, and the rule that -1/-1 and +1/+1 counters are removed each other, and that losing due to unable to drawing a card is a state based effect rather than being immediate. 02:06:15 -!- meconium has changed nick to copumpkin. 02:13:58 -!- tromp has quit. 02:14:33 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:14:43 -!- tromp has joined. 02:17:23 Oh hey MTGO finished installing 02:17:30 Erm, downloading 02:19:07 "Wizards of the Coast allows collectors who have assembled a full set of digital cards to exchange them for a factory set of printed cards for a $25 shipping and handling fee. Regular cards and foils cannot be mixed. Each set is eligible for a period of up to 4 years after the online release. This program was initially created in order to allay doubt and uncertainty over the investment into virtual cards" 02:19:10 ....investment? 02:19:37 I thought the purpose of buying the virtual cards was to have fun, not to invest 02:19:56 whenever you want somebody to spend unreasonably much money on something useless, you call it an "investment" 02:20:11 that's marketing 101 sgeo 02:20:44 Sgeo: the only reason people can afford Magic cards at all in formats like Legacy is that they can sell them again afterwards and make back most of the money 02:21:04 any viable Legacy deck costs like $2000 02:22:31 kmc: To be fair-ish, the cost on Legacy-viable Magic cards is rather stable. 02:22:50 Buuut yeah. 02:23:01 pikhq: not always, new releases can blow things up 02:23:07 Far better phrased as "pile of cash donated to my hobby" 02:23:11 there was the debacle with True-Name Nemesis recently 02:23:51 it's massively in demand for Legacy, and only available in one of five theme decks that Wizards keeps producing in equal quantities and insisting that shops buy an equal number of each 02:23:59 leading to the other four ending up stuck on shelves 02:24:11 MTGO isn't going to be too expensive for me to play casually, is it? 02:24:56 depends on how many cards you want 02:25:14 the way it works is, you buy tix for $1 each, tix enter you into tournaments, where you can win boosters as prizes 02:25:28 the smallest tournaments are two-man tournaments, it's 2 tix for each player to enter 02:25:31 and the winner gets 1 booster 02:25:36 Do you also get to keep drafted cards in MTGO or not? 02:25:39 that's $4 on average for 15 cards, if you have a 50% win rate 02:25:49 zzo38: there are two sorts of MTGO drafts, some where you keep them, some where you don't 02:26:20 if you enter a tournament where you get to keep them, you have to supply 3 boosters to enter, or else like 12 tix if you don't have the boosters (that's $12) 02:26:28 so one draft is going to cost you like $15 02:26:59 there are bots that sell boosters from recent sets for like 3 and a half tix each, though 02:27:05 (the exact price varies continuously) 02:27:33 Can I just buy decks to play against randoms and friends? 02:27:46 I'm not sure 02:28:54 i heard that you can predict which cards will be in a booster box by opening a few of the packs 02:28:57 is that true 02:28:59 http://www.wizards.com/mtg/images/digital/magiconline/img_grapeshot.png 02:29:05 Each copy itself doesn't storm, does it? 02:29:20 Sgeo: Storm is a trigger that triggers on casting 02:29:22 the copies aren't cast 02:29:22 oh, you're talking about the online thing anyway. ok 02:29:26 they're copied while they're on the stack 02:29:56 also that would be a trivial infinite loop if they did 02:30:24 btw, the person in charge of Magic design is insisting they're never going to do Storm again because it's been a complete balance nightmare every time they've tried 02:32:02 ais523: should I install wide beta or the current version? 02:32:30 ais523: also sounds like a UI nightmare, but are there other mechanics that are also UI nightmares? 02:32:31 Sgeo: they're compatible; Wizards wants everyone to use the beta but nobody does 02:32:41 I'm not sure why 02:32:50 they claim the beta's better, at least 02:32:57 Almost downloaded beta by accident because it defaulted to it 02:33:08 lol 02:33:10 I want to wait until it's stable, but then, I used Gmail while it was in beta 02:33:15 lololololol 02:33:25 also, Haunt's probably the biggest UI nightmare, it's a UI nightmare even in real-life play 02:36:09 Apparently MTGO doesn't work in WINE? ais523, how do you use it (assuming you do, rather than knowing everything about a game you don't play) 02:36:26 Sgeo: I don't use it 02:36:34 knowing everything about games I don't play is one of my hobbies 02:36:45 also I follow MTGO beta development, and used to watch streams of it a bunch 02:36:48 -!- yorick has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:36:59 streams of development or gameplay? 02:37:16 gameplay 02:37:22 but nobody streams the beta, that's how I know it's unpopular 02:37:36 the development isn't streamed, development rarely is 02:37:54 `addquote knowing everything about games I don't play is one of my hobbies 02:37:57 1159) knowing everything about games I don't play is one of my hobbies 02:38:12 kmc: seriously, it takes up like half my leisure time that isn't programming 02:38:39 I kind ofdo the same with programming languages :/ 02:38:46 And games, except for the 'everything' bit 02:41:33 I think the limitations of using macros to add continuations to languages that don't have them might mirror Haskell's continuation stuff only being available to functions that support it by producing a Cont whatever 02:42:03 Actually, hmm 02:43:03 > (`runCont` id) $ shift (\k -> fmap map k (map return [1,2,3])) 02:43:04 Couldn't match type `GHC.Types.Int 02:43:04 -> ([m0 a1] -> a0 -> b0) -> [a0] -> [b0]' 02:43:04 with `Control.Monad.Trans.Cont.ContT 02:43:04 r0 Data.Functor.Identity.Identity r0' 02:43:04 Expected type: Control.Monad.Trans.Cont.Cont r0 r0 02:43:13 I... should think about things more thoroughly 02:43:23 > (`runCont` id) $ shift (\k -> fmap map k <*> (map return [1,2,3])) 02:43:24 Couldn't match type `GHC.Types.Int -> [a0 -> b0] -> [[b0]]' 02:43:24 with `Control.Monad.Trans.Cont.ContT 02:43:24 r0 Data.Functor.Identity.Identity r0' 02:43:24 Expected type: Control.Monad.Trans.Cont.Cont r0 r0 02:43:24 Actual type: GHC.Types.Int -> [a0 -> b0] -> [[b0]] 02:43:33 That doesn't count as thorough thinking 02:46:07 Why does Magic Online want admin on my computer? 02:48:04 because it's badly programmed 02:48:12 it has a tendency to crash, including during tournaments 02:50:26 Those are also other reasons I wouldn't want to use such software. 02:51:12 Is the beta version any better about not crashing? 02:51:33 o.O LispWorks is expensive 02:51:33 http://www.lispworks.com/buy/prices-1c.html 02:51:40 What's the other popular commerical CL? 02:52:20 Allegro I think 02:52:52 Sgeo: I think the most infamous crashes are on the server end, so it doesn't matter what client you use for that 02:57:11 -!- APott has joined. 03:01:44 -!- APott has quit (Client Quit). 03:04:51 `log `olist 937 03:05:23 No output. 03:05:24 `log `olist 937 03:05:34 2014-01-13.txt:03:05:24: `log `olist 937 03:05:40 typical 03:05:50 `log > `olist 937 03:05:56 2014-01-13.txt:03:05:50: `log > `olist 937 03:06:05 …wait, that's possible? 03:06:19 `log [^] ]> `olist 937 03:06:25 No output. 03:06:29 `olist 937 03:06:31 olist 937: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly 03:06:32 * ais523 is triumphant 03:08:52 triumphant yet failed 03:09:09 ais523: HackEgo was down when the actual `olist was attempted 03:09:25 oerjan: don't you mean glogbot? 03:09:32 or were they both down? 03:09:33 well both 03:09:36 right 03:09:42 well in that case the pings never happened the first time 03:10:12 so you can't blame me for unwanted pings 03:10:50 however, i did it second time just because it didn't ping. _but_ i used `run olist instead of `olist because i included a comment that i knew it had already been done. 03:11:05 this is the third time i've been notified about this comic 03:11:25 zzo38: i guess i just found another argument for you for why i shouldn't use `run olist 03:11:37 oerjan: it's like you actively want to be mispinged 03:11:56 *MWAHAHAHA* 03:12:37 oerjan: What other argument? If it has already been done and you want to add a comment that is the reason to use `run which is already known. 03:13:10 Or do you mean for reading the log? 03:13:21 zzo38: i didn't think that someone (ais523) might want to check if `olist had already been used _without_ being on the list himself 03:13:37 But in that case, isn't glogbackup for? 03:13:52 zzo38: I checked by asking HackEgo if anyone had said `olist 03:14:04 and it said no, because it wasn't around the first time, and the second time it wasn't spelled `olist 03:14:19 zzo38: Gregor has never made glogbackup merge in its logs properly. you may help nagging him if you want. 03:14:22 oerjan: O, OK, then. 03:14:37 oerjan: Yes he really should fix it please. 03:15:16 zzo38: wow that's a confusing sentence 03:15:35 you made a request to someone, in the third person, while pinging someone else, then added "pleae" 03:15:38 *"please" 03:16:12 That is in case you can contact them too. (I already did sent a message) 03:22:05 -!- LinearInterpol has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 03:28:40 let's say I have a .tar.xz archive. Is there some way I can add to it without having to decompress it all and recompress it? 03:28:56 or something with similar compression that supports incremental addition? 03:30:49 i don't know about xz, or tar, but you can concatenate gzip files and it's equivalent to gzipping the concatenation of the decompressed files, except bigger 03:30:52 Possibly, but not easily. 03:31:04 xz has the same property. 03:31:19 The trick is adding to a tar. I don't know if there's any real way to do that nicely. 03:31:26 yeah, I was hoping for it to be able to reconstruct its compressor state and let me pretend I just added shit onto the end of the stream 03:31:50 what I want is something like tar but which builds a compression-compatible index, so I can do random access 03:31:56 maybe I should use squashfs as my archive format 03:32:18 it would be handy to mount archives 03:32:26 I have a lot of annoyingly large json files that share a lot of structure and they compress beautifully 03:32:33 but I don't want to compress them all at once 03:32:42 and xz achieves ridiculous ratios on them :( 03:32:50 Actually, is the concatenation of two tarballs a valid tarball? 03:33:24 It would seem "not really". 03:34:01 copumpkin: you could stuff each one into a JSON object like {'filename': 'foo.json', 'data': ...} and then your archive format is just "sequence of json values" and you can concat .xz files 03:34:31 yeah, but concatting them doesn't get me the same benefit :/ 03:34:38 Ah, yep, tar does have an EOF marker in it, which is why it doesn't work. 03:34:41 once I have enough of them, the marginal growth of adding another json file is tiny 03:34:51 whereas compressing them individually grows much faster 03:34:54 pikhq: Presumably that is so that it works if loaded on a tape? 03:34:59 oh i see, you want to compress it wrt the existing structure 03:35:02 you can concat .ttyrec 03:35:03 yeah 03:35:11 seems rather unlikely to be a common use case 03:35:16 but it'd make me very happy 03:35:20 but it isn't a compression format, it's a video codec 03:36:49 You could also make the archive format just, have a null-terminated filename followed by the 32-bit length and then data of that file. Now it can easily be concatenated. 03:38:50 zzo38: but if the data is already JSON then might as well use JSON for the container as well 03:40:23 for scale, I have about 20k json files using up close to 6gb 03:40:30 kmc: Yes, if the data is already JSON, then that can work 03:40:57 they compress to about 80MB 03:41:15 horribly redundant structure, even apart from the json noise 03:41:24 (format isn't under my control unfortunately) 03:44:16 if you have a small number of files compressed together then you can afford to recompress them all whenever you add one... and occasionally when that gets big enough you recompress it together with the next bigger chunk of files... and so forth 03:45:04 Ah, nice. Amortising the compressor cost. 03:45:46 yeah 03:45:52 hmm 03:46:40 edwardk gave a talk at mozilla sf which was about some data structure which used a list of arrays whose sizes followed counting in skew binary 03:46:46 yeah 03:47:01 so that you never have a cascade of carries, which here would correspond to recompressing a whole lot of data at once 03:47:02 problem in this case is that at some point merging large ones will get impossibly large 03:47:17 well you can stop at some point 03:47:22 I guess, yeah 03:47:40 if you can afford to store 80MB per 20k files, then don't bother compressing chunks bigger than 20k 03:47:55 yeah 03:48:05 i agree that something which can resume the compressor state would be more elegant, though 03:48:16 but i don't know of anything like that 03:48:40 There's no real reason it can't be done, but yeah. 03:48:50 perhaps you can write or hack up a compressor implementation to serialize its state at the end of the output 03:49:33 (at least in gzip, and presumably also in xz, the compressor state up to a point can be entirely derived from the compressed output up to that point) 03:49:40 oh, neat 03:49:45 * kmc -> afk 03:50:55 The compressor may have looked ahead further, but when it's outputting the compressed text it's already output everything that depends on future text in the stream (namely, symbol frequencies for the Huffman table) 03:51:45 And the symbol frequencies and window are just about all of the compression state. 03:53:34 shachaf: remind me tomorrow to help with Dylan 03:53:46 why 03:56:32 Because, I want to help financially if possible 04:01:56 Kind of annoyed that opendylan.org's https certificate is expired, want to fix tthat 04:04:32 pikhq: yeah, I was hoping that already existed somewhere 04:09:34 @tell Sgeo 19:53 shachaf: remind me tomorrow to help with Dylan 04:09:34 Consider it noted. 04:15:36 -!- mauke has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 04:16:29 -!- mauke has joined. 04:16:40 -!- preflex has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 04:16:52 -!- preflex_ has joined. 04:17:17 -!- preflex_ has changed nick to preflex. 04:41:36 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:42:10 -!- tromp has joined. 04:47:03 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 05:20:18 > x $ y ? z 05:20:19 Not in scope: `?' 05:20:29 > x $ y & z 05:20:30 Couldn't match expected type `b0 -> t0' 05:20:31 with actual type `Debug.SimpleReflect.Expr.Expr'Couldn't match e... 05:20:31 with actual type `Debug.SimpleReflect.Expr.Expr' 05:20:46 :t \x y z -> x $ y & z 05:20:47 (b -> t) -> a -> (a -> b) -> t 05:25:18 > f $ x & g 05:25:19 Could not deduce (Debug.SimpleReflect.Expr.FromExpr b0) 05:25:20 arising from the ambiguity check for `e_1' 05:25:20 from the context (Debug.SimpleReflect.Expr.FromExpr (b -> t), 05:25:20 Debug.SimpleReflect.Expr.FromExpr b) 05:25:20 bound by the inferred type for `e_1': 05:25:47 > f $ x & g :: Expr 05:25:48 No instance for (Debug.SimpleReflect.Expr.FromExpr b0) 05:25:48 arising from a use of `Debug.SimpleReflect.Vars.g' 05:25:48 The type variable `b0' is ambiguous 05:25:48 Possible fix: add a type signature that fixes these type variable(s) 05:25:48 Note: there are several potential instances: 05:25:51 > (f::Expr->Expr) $ (x::Expr) & (g::Expr->Expr) :: Expr 05:25:52 f (g x) 05:26:01 so simple!! 05:27:47 shachaf: i was really just checking if $ and & had the right fixities to be combined like that. 05:28:18 * oerjan was editing a stackoverflow answer 05:29:54 this one? http://stackoverflow.com/questions/21084178/using-lens-in-haskell-to-modify-values 05:30:47 -!- conehead has quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com). 05:30:49 that doesn't even give the simple answer :'( 05:30:56 preflex: seen tel 05:30:56 tel was last seen on #haskell 25 days, 8 hours, 15 minutes and 48 seconds ago, saying: I'd like to annotate the expression with cofree, but both Bound and cofree want to use the same variable to recurse on 05:31:03 oh well 05:31:19 shachaf: my edit was adding the simple answer, i hope 05:31:39 it hasn't been approved yet, though 05:31:49 your edits need to be approved? 05:32:08 can i approve edits or do you need more superpowers for that 05:32:54 apparently i can review suggested edits but only random ones from who knows where 05:33:01 shachaf: i believe i need 2000 rep to get autoapproved, only have 480 yet 05:34:20 made a big jump today though 05:34:34 gameify quickly giving wrong answers to programming questions 05:35:33 i think this is the first time i try to edit someone else's answer, anyway 05:35:55 kmc: whoa, just like irc 05:36:31 shachaf++ 05:38:38 copumpkin: i get it 05:38:52 but i don't get Nu Maybe :'( what am i missing 05:39:01 what's to get? 05:39:09 shachaf: you need to get something fixed 05:39:15 why is my code so ugly 05:39:35 for addition and multiplication and all that 05:40:15 I could see multiplication being a huge pain to define in a total language 05:41:02 what is "correct" multiplication anyway 05:41:15 what's 0 * infty or infty * 0, both 0? 05:41:27 it might not even be possible! 05:41:37 wait, what's not possible 05:41:52 well, you could write that 05:42:04 the choices are all pretty arbitrary though 05:42:12 arbitrary things are the worst 05:42:40 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 05:48:57 @src on 05:48:57 (*) `on` f = \x y -> f x * f y 05:49:53 i forgot that you can use infix operators as formal parameters 05:49:56 that's the fuckin' best 05:51:01 now my question is, how do i quote that in a stackoverflow comment. 05:51:48 (`` is used to start and end code fragments in SO.) 05:53:19 " the development isn't streamed, development rarely is" i've seen a lot of development streams? or, well, more like this is what we did this week. i guess they rarely stream the actual WHY IS THIS TURTLE SWIMMING BACKWARDS ARRRGH CORN, CORN EVERYWHERE. 05:53:53 shachaf: 0 * infty = 0 is standard in measure theory. 05:54:53 i don't think i've seen oklopol break quite that much before. 05:57:02 ok apparently you can use `` around code which contains ` 05:57:17 (`` ... ``, i mean) 05:57:53 fortunately i don't think `` is used in haskell. 05:58:01 oerjan: yes but that's how bad my code breaks. 05:58:12 "``" 05:58:41 mauke: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA 05:58:48 * oerjan hopes that won't show up 05:59:28 (*) `on` f = \x y -> f x * f y -- you can use `` around an identifier to infixify it 05:59:36 now with more real 06:00:39 {- "-}" " -} 06:00:58 this is why nested comments aren't 06:01:17 (haskell's aren't nested, ocaml's aren't comments) 06:04:24 whoops my edit was rejected 06:05:07 3:1 against 06:05:32 http://i.imgur.com/7nsdf1g.gif 06:07:07 -!- realzies has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 06:08:03 oerjan: how does measure theory work 06:09:18 made a comment instead. 06:09:52 i never measured a theory i didn't like 06:10:14 what's this about measure theory 06:10:38 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: ZZZZ). 06:11:01 shachaf: it doesn't! it's not very constructive 06:11:07 which basically means it's all bullshit 06:11:16 copumpkin: things don't gotta be constructive, all right?? 06:11:32 like my criticism 06:11:34 ¬_¬ 06:11:42 anyway, maybe some topological thing has an answer to what it should be like? 06:11:45 constructive criticism is overrated 06:13:09 since the topology thing for infinity manages to behave similarly to the conatural infinity 06:13:25 copumpkin: how do you do topology constructively, anyway 06:14:20 fuckin constructivists 06:14:44 classical criticism 06:14:54 "your painting doesn't not suck" 06:15:39 constructive criticism is related to classical criticism in a similar way to how constructive logic is related to classical logic 06:15:50 if you are constructive you tell someone how to improve a thing 06:16:02 otherwise you're just saying an improvement exists 06:17:30 "you suck" 06:18:38 what if i say you suck so bad that no one (even your mother) can improve you. 06:18:51 then i guess it's not even classical 06:19:21 well, "improve" in the sense of "there exists something better" 06:19:42 -!- realzies has joined. 06:19:48 you ain't the top of the lattice, kid 06:20:05 copumpkin: is #haskell actually much worse on average than a few years ago or am i just more irritable 06:20:13 ok 06:20:26 shachaf: well, my attention has dwindled in the past couple of years 06:20:44 I guess I'd need specifics on what's bad, but nothing strikes me as particularly terrible 06:20:52 except for you and kmc constantly complaining about it :) 06:21:02 ok 06:21:23 but I really barely read it anymore 06:21:28 so it's quite possible it's abysmal 06:21:39 and I just happen to not notice 06:21:57 would you say it's worse than other major channels? 06:22:03 i don't know 06:22:16 major as in lots of people? 06:22:27 yeah 06:22:37 feels a bit like it's diluted with time 06:22:51 but most of the regulars I remember are gone 06:22:59 i only complain intermittently 06:23:29 would you say it's worse than other major channels? I'm genuinely curious to see a solid argument presenting what's bad about it 06:23:29 i don't know 06:23:46 even if you don't know how to fix it 06:23:53 I don't demand that criticism be "constructive" :P 06:24:15 that's a bullshit definition of "constructive criticism", anyway 06:24:18 :) 06:24:50 it's probably better than a lot of major channels, but that's no excuse 06:25:09 certainly not 06:25:25 just trying to quantify how bad you see it 06:25:58 yeah i've been in large channels with much bigger problems 06:26:15 the problems in #haskell are a lot more subtle and that's what makes them (somewhat) interesting to talk about 06:26:22 but I think I don't want to say very much about it right now 06:26:23 probably i'll just stop complaining and it'll be just as good 06:26:34 kmc: fair enough, but at some point I'd still like to see it 06:27:24 shachaf: well, if you can go into what you think is wrong I think that'd be helpful 06:27:30 not necessarily now either 06:27:33 since I'm tired too :P 06:28:24 it seems a shame for you to sweep your issues with it under the rug, but also a shame to try to deal with them without getting others to agree that they're issues in the first place 06:28:52 * copumpkin shrugs 06:28:55 too tired to be coherent 06:28:58 deal with them how? 06:29:08 I don't know! you comment on it a lot 06:29:13 mostly what i do is leave the channel for a while, or recently use /ignore 06:29:26 my /ignore list has 59 entries now, it's great :( 06:29:45 that doesn't seem optimal, assuming your long-term desire is to help it and/or improve it and/or be a part of it in some way or another 06:30:59 anyway, I dunno 06:31:15 need moar time :P 06:44:05 copumpkin: anyway, even addition is awkward 06:44:13 so i bet i'm missing something 06:55:38 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 06:55:57 -!- Slereah has joined. 06:58:13 -!- Sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 07:01:09 shachaf Should I spam you so you have an excuse to make it an even sixty? 07:01:32 Well, I don't /ignore that many people in here. 07:01:53 I could spam you in PM 07:02:09 with ascii art of feet 07:02:13 it's easy! Watch! 07:02:26 peapodamus: Please don't. 07:02:34 lol 07:03:55 -!- `^_^v has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 07:08:18 you can spam me 07:08:26 i like spam 07:08:36 makes me feel important 07:10:36 shachaf, am i on your ignore list 07:12:45 if the answer is "yes", how will you ever know 07:12:48 Phantom_Hoover: no 07:13:03 shachaf: do people on your ignore list ever use bots to harass you i.e. @tell shachaf 07:13:18 i doubt it 07:13:25 I have an assembler which allows a code section for a postprocessor, which is written in the same machine code that the rest of the program is; an emulator is included. The postprocessor code shares all symbol names with the main code, and uses the same macros, etc. Do you know of any other programs that have such a feature like this? 07:13:28 sometimes i take people off the list, too 07:13:53 it's not that they're terrible people or anything 07:14:29 also sometimes i look at logs 07:14:40 what does a postprocessor do 07:14:43 i shouldn't be talking about this so much, anyway 07:15:11 -!- tromp has joined. 07:15:20 kmc: It can modify the binary before writing it out to the file; it can also specify the format of the output file, and a few other things. 07:17:54 I find this feature useful, whether or not other people do. 07:19:33 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 07:20:16 what do you use it for? 07:21:52 In this program I am working on now, the postprocessor fills in an identity table, fills in unused entries in a jump table (the used entries are created using macros), creates all the necessary tile variants in the pattern tables, and adds loop addresses to the music data. 07:22:38 In another program I have used it to output a custom header. Another purpose is compile-time debugging. 07:27:39 -!- FreeFull has quit. 07:32:57 compile-time debugging? how does that work? 07:34:33 "I don't get people who say this sucks because 'all it does' is give you mana... By that reasoning Basic Lands suck, good luck making a full 0 CMC deck that doesn't suck." 07:34:46 A deck that uses no mana? That seems interesting 07:37:37 Sgeo: Manaless Dredge is sometimes seen in Legacy 07:37:43 it needs no mana, and in fact can't generate any 07:37:55 and pretty much the only thing that interacts with it is graveyard hate 07:38:04 it's the only deck that people choose to play second against 07:38:20 because it literally can't do anything until it starts its engine going via discarding to maximum hand size 07:39:00 https://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/deck/760 this? it looks like it can generate mana, and has a lot of mana-using cards 07:39:32 I should sleep 07:42:02 Sgeo: yeah, that 07:42:09 Dakmor Salvage is never actually /played/ 07:42:15 it's just there to be dredged 07:42:45 the only cards that are actually cast are Cabal Therapy and Dread Return, using the flashback costs 07:43:00 I guess you could play Cabal Therapy from Dakmor Salvage if you were desperate, and target yourself 07:44:48 -!- tromp has joined. 07:45:05 most of the cards in that deck are played for from-graveyard effects 07:48:35 "Play cards as written. Ignore all errata." 07:49:00 What happens to interrupts? 07:49:11 Or.... anything where there's been a terminology or rule change? 07:49:14 that's considered a game rule change, so they work like instants 07:49:19 also, http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/22324_Deck_Tech_NotQuiteManaless_Dredge_With_Nicholas_Rausch.html is an explanation of that deck 07:49:26 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 07:49:30 "5/5 for turning Lotus Vale into Black Lotus" 07:49:31 o.O 07:50:01 the only magic thing i care about is that combo where you make the other player rip up all their cards 07:50:15 ++ 07:50:35 I know there's a card where you have to tear up that card to use it 07:50:45 yeah, it's in one of the joke decks 07:50:55 then you combine that with a duplicatey thing and a target switchy thing or suchlike 07:51:08 Bike: it doesn't actually work 07:51:13 you don't actually work 07:51:19 anyway: does anyone have an idea why a half life mod won't work on linux even though half life does 07:52:02 Bike: Perhaps you have to tap it first. 07:52:08 kmc: Compile-time debugging works by such thing as having a register $200A which is for standard I/O, so you can print diagnostic messages; the postprocessor can even copy the program it is compiling into its own RAM and execute it at compile-time (although the I/O registers and memory map are different, so it might not work) 07:53:02 I didn't know there is decks that don't generate any mana 07:53:19 if retrocomputing is a thing, is retrofuturecomputing also a thing, and is it what zzo38 does 07:53:48 "Retrofuturecomputing"? Is that a word? What exactly does it mean anyways? 07:54:26 maybe retrofuture computing would be Plan 9 and Haiku OS 07:54:51 bliip bloop 07:55:06 * oklopol makes future sounds 07:55:08 Do you make up any of your own Magic: the Gathering cards? 07:55:24 -!- ais523 has quit. 07:55:31 i've made some card games i guess, but never mtg 07:55:42 What card games? 07:56:02 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 07:56:06 er, i don't know, crappy ones 07:56:38 http://www.mtgdeckbuilder.net/Cards/Details/UNG/69 + ignoring errata 07:57:03 i actually made one as a christmas present, but the rules of the game are stolen from another game (there was enough work making the actual cards) 07:57:29 (and by making i mean writing a short program to output pdfs and sending them to a paper company for printing) 07:57:41 (so actually there was very little work) 07:58:17 a friend of mine made a pretty nice card game, called something retarded like dork and doomed, don't recall 07:58:49 somewhat similar to whatsitcalled i guess 07:58:56 whatsitcalled = munchkin 07:59:40 -!- Sorella has quit (Quit: It is tiem!). 08:00:03 please don't use "retarded" as a pejorative 08:00:31 fizzie: good thinking 08:00:50 why not 08:01:01 should i not use gay either? 08:01:05 correct 08:01:13 k 08:01:32 i don't think it involves any engine modification, it's pretty much just an add on scenario. maybe half life can't deal with that w/o engine modification 08:02:25 (and that was voiced, and a pejorative, by the way) 08:02:39 voiced? 08:03:54 like, voiced and not aspirated 08:03:58 it's a gay joke 08:04:04 classy 08:04:06 yes 08:05:19 i do somewhat agree with you, but i believe that's only because i do not belong to a group that has an adjective like that, and it's racist to make life decisions based on your own race 08:06:12 what? 08:06:25 race in a very general sense 08:06:26 kmc: I think he's attempting the chewbacca defense? 08:06:44 is this gonna turn into one of those "i don't even see race" conversations i.e. "if I ignore injustice it will magically go away" 08:07:05 it's not "racist" to look at your own privilege and how you might fit into interlocking systems of oppression, on either end 08:07:28 it's funny to say that it is though 08:07:34 not really 08:07:45 maybe it's funny to you because it upsets other people? 08:07:48 i think we have a word for that behavior 08:07:51 maybe 08:07:56 -!- `^_^v has joined. 08:08:00 what's that? 08:08:02 trolling 08:08:19 okay 08:08:41 anyway you have a right to deliberately use language that upsets others, we also have a right to exclude you from our community if you do so 08:08:56 sure 08:09:52 is stupid okay? 08:10:08 or does it insult stupid people? 08:10:28 is idiotic okay already? 08:11:01 i probably wouldn't call you out on those 08:11:25 okay 08:11:35 I'm not some expert or some perfect example, the way I talk is still full of ableist language too, it's fucking pervasive 08:12:28 but I think avoiding "retarded" is now like a pretty mainstream position, not just a thing of touchy internet social justice people like myself 08:13:03 i agree, i still use it 08:13:44 but yeah it takes some effort nowadays, and perhaps i will have to learn something else some day 08:14:11 how bad do you consider "gay"? 08:14:23 as a pejorative? completely unacceptable 08:14:31 why would you even think that's okay... 08:14:59 because it's usually used pretty sarcastically 08:15:41 i don't really buy that 08:15:44 i mean in english at lesat 08:15:46 *least 08:16:03 well 08:16:30 perhaps i just feel that the finnish "gay" is worse because i've had the native experience with it 08:16:59 and okay, i completely buy that 08:17:34 I have made up some Magic: the Gathering cards, and also Yomi cards, Puzzle Strike cards, Pokemon cards, etc. I like the game of Pokemon card. It would be strange for "lose priority" to be a cost in a Magic: the Gathering, isn't it? 08:17:37 'sarcastically'? 08:18:10 like a kid could say that something is gay 08:18:10 maybe thing are different outside of american high school 08:18:20 i don't mean calling a human gay 08:18:36 because wouldn't you call them a fag if you wanted to insult them 08:18:47 if we're talking like 'man you're cheating! that's so gay!' i don't see how that's sarcastic 08:18:50 oklopol: but they're saying it's gay as a way of saying it's bad, implying gay = bad, do I really need to spell this out for fuck's sake 08:19:08 sure 08:20:14 i just don't really agree with the (i guess mainstream nowadays on the internet) opinion that that somehow influences how you actually feel about gays 08:20:52 just because you don't understand the influence doesn't mean it's there 08:21:02 maybe it's an opposite influence 08:21:48 anyway i gotta go learn to drive a car 08:21:54 eek. 08:22:10 anyway it's not just about *your* opinion of gay people, what about the gay kid who hears people on xbox live using "gay" as an insult constantly 08:22:13 I would think it improper to call "gay" in the way it often is. Sometimes homosexual people are called "gay", but apparently, it was originally due to male actors who were acting female characters in the play, so it could be used in that restricted sense. 08:22:45 seems like that'd have some effect on making their life more painful 08:22:54 and you're defending your decision to make their life more painful... why, exactly? 08:22:57 what makes it so worth it to you? 08:23:16 "making gay people feel awful and uncomfortable? but what about my straight feelings?" 08:23:30 err, i wouldn't say it to someone who might take it that way? 08:23:37 how the fuck do you know? 08:23:39 just like i wouldn't show my dick to a kid 08:23:52 by checking they're over 18 08:23:57 oklopol: how do you know I'm not a closeted gay kid who's terrified to come out to his parents? 08:24:00 or anyone else in this channel 08:24:22 i haven't used gay as an insult here, have i? 08:24:32 are you particularly sure that nobody in this channel is gay and being made rather uncomfortable by your attempted justifications of homophobia? 08:24:33 (i probably have, but not lately.) 08:24:33 no but you're defending the practice of doing so 08:24:47 but i'm not defending using it here! 08:24:49 lol 08:24:53 -!- impomatic has left. 08:24:56 anyway, see you 08:25:07 well that made no fucking sense at all 08:25:20 oklopol: yeah you should probably leave 08:28:04 I'm tempted to paste some 'grep -i oklopol | grep -i gay' results, but I guess that'd be kinda superfluous. 08:28:27 -!- Fiora has left. 08:29:40 There's also an example of fungot using gay as a pejorative, which is kind of bad. Where'd you learn such language, fungot? 08:29:40 fizzie: o(a constants) o(1)? i 08:30:16 -!- realzies has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 08:30:19 (Now *that's* a Chewbacca defense.) 08:31:42 Oh, I completely missed oklopol's further qualifying statement, thanks to being all grep. 08:38:51 -!- nycs has joined. 08:41:09 -!- `^_^v has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 08:42:48 * kmc sighs 08:42:58 I bet Fiora doesn't come back this time 08:43:17 can't really blame her 08:43:55 -!- realzies has joined. 08:57:33 Cursor moving now works in the Attribute Zone editor. 08:57:52 (The Famicom version, specifically) 08:58:22 what's the problem, oklopol said he wouldn't use her as an insult if she could hear it 08:59:41 Bike: i won't use slurs as insults if it would make anyone uncomfortable, I'll just talk about how great it would be if I *could* use them until everyone who *would* be uncomfortable leaves 08:59:45 good guy oklopol 08:59:49 so considerate of other people's feelings 09:04:40 -!- LinearInterpol has joined. 09:32:15 -!- MindlessDrone has joined. 09:36:37 -!- LinearInterpol has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 09:41:01 -!- qlkzy has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net). 09:41:25 -!- qlkzy has joined. 09:57:45 -!- Sellyme has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 09:59:43 -!- qlkzy has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net). 10:00:07 -!- qlkzy has joined. 10:00:07 -!- qlkzy has quit (Excess Flood). 10:01:14 -!- qlkzy has joined. 10:04:00 -!- qlkzy has quit (Client Quit). 10:09:10 -!- qlkzy has joined. 10:54:57 -!- nooga has joined. 10:55:52 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 11:07:30 -!- impomatic has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 11:09:33 -!- stuntaneous has joined. 11:24:45 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 11:25:11 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 11:27:13 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 11:29:24 -!- nooga has joined. 11:53:02 -!- Sellyme has joined. 12:06:27 -!- yorick has joined. 12:16:27 Bike: how did it make no sense? 12:20:50 one very strong reason for i do not try very hard to be like you guys is that i'm strongly against this kind of ganging up on people 12:21:07 i don't exactly want to associate with such people too strongly 12:22:15 you the only group of people who bully other people openly 12:22:36 because you believe you are correct (which of course makes sense because you are) 12:24:36 *-for 12:28:40 (and i mean correct in your opinion, not your approach) 12:48:10 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 13:00:34 *+are 13:30:43 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 13:56:37 -!- boily has joined. 13:56:43 -!- metasepia has joined. 13:56:50 good tarquin morning! 13:56:57 @messages-loûd 13:56:57 oerjan said 2d 14h 39m 5s ago: good breakfast morning! <-- so much better than the alternatives! 14:04:39 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 14:08:18 -!- nooga has joined. 14:15:31 -!- conehead has joined. 14:25:09 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 253 seconds). 14:37:47 -!- Sorella has joined. 14:44:57 -!- LinearInterpol has joined. 14:47:45 @messages-lüüd 14:47:45 Unknown command, try @list 14:48:07 Stupid non-unicode-understanding bot :( 14:50:26 -!- nycs has changed nick to `^_^v. 14:51:08 i copypasted that in python and it was 0.99 sure that was EUC-JP 14:51:11 is that correct 14:51:40 what. 14:51:57 ü should be u with diaeresis 14:52:09 * FireFly eyes weechat suspiciously 14:52:32 it is that 14:52:37 Good 14:52:38 i mean that's how it shows on my scree 14:52:38 n 14:52:53 Pretty sure python is drunk 14:52:55 but i mean i called some sort of encoding detection function 14:54:41 od was GB2312 14:55:10 and >>> chardet.detect("rpklp") 14:55:10 {'confidence': 0.99, 'encoding': 'EUC-KR'} 14:55:20 (disclaimer: i have no idea what this function is) 14:55:54 Maybe its confidence is supposed to be 1 - stated value 14:56:56 EUC-KR? has anyone ever used that one? 14:57:46 apparently! 14:58:23 >>> chardet.detect("Mkkiomenahirikk.") 14:58:23 {'confidence': 0.87625, 'encoding': 'utf-8'} 14:58:26 apparently not! 14:59:19 >>> chardet.detect("aaaahrg!") 14:59:40 hmm. python. 15:00:13 yeah sorry just copypaste 15:00:26 i'm not a python bot 15:00:49 I can do it myself, just need to install a package. :) 15:01:08 {'confidence': 1.0, 'encoding': 'ascii'} 15:01:36 that's ... interesting. so 'ascii' means ASCII or anything that properly extends it ... 15:01:47 >>> chardet.detect("Supermummo.") 15:01:47 {'confidence': 1.0, 'encoding': 'ascii'} 15:03:10 so maybe confidence is just "i'm this confident that the input fits this encoding" 15:03:20 haha. ä -> EUC-KR, ö -> TIS-620, ü -> EUC-JP, all with 99% confidence. 15:04:13 i get the same 15:04:16 (Combining them into a single string gives utf-8 with 87.625% confidence.) 15:04:44 The guess is fine, but the 99% is ... well let's say strange. 15:07:52 oklopol is like myndzi. 15:08:02 and 87.625% sounds a bit low 15:08:04 i am? 15:10:11 . \o/ 15:10:11 | 15:10:11 /| 15:10:15 not at all. 15:11:15 . . 15:11:26 . . 15:11:37 . . . . 15:12:13 . O.o o_O \o_ O.O _o/ 15:12:13 | | 15:12:13 /< |\ 15:12:37 is there a list of myndzi patterns anywhere? 15:12:40 can you change your nick to something with 6 letters 15:13:01 I could, but I don't want to. 15:13:01 because xchat is mean 15:13:48 i need a myndzi compatible irc client 15:22:32 -!- susurrus has joined. 15:23:29 . \o/ O O 15:23:29 | 15:23:29 /´\ 15:25:25 oklopol: it's configurable so that it doesn't indent lines, IIRC 15:25:27 oklopol: there is an 'indent nicknames' option in the preferences, which you could disable. 15:25:32 -!- susurrus has quit (Client Quit). 15:26:25 wow 15:26:34 That was odd. 15:26:44 you're welcome ;-) 15:27:09 That's the danger of IRCing as root. 15:27:24 you believed that, too. yay! 15:30:20 blerp 15:30:24 ooh cool. 15:36:42 FireFly: I feel half bad for not having used a sandbox user :) 15:37:39 Haha 15:41:39 Oh. https://jira.atlassian.com/browse/CONF-32190 *is* cute. 15:42:12 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 15:43:04 -!- Sorella has quit (Quit: It is tiem!). 15:43:45 -!- Sorella has joined. 15:52:19 -!- nooodl has joined. 15:52:41 -!- `^_^v has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 15:57:14 -!- Bike has joined. 15:57:39 Nice 15:58:27 oklopol: if you think you don't like being "ganged up on" in that three people on the internet are complaining about what insults you use, why don't you consider what it would be like to be so fucking dehumanized by a member of a majority that your minority identity is itself used as an insult 16:03:01 i have no particular opinion on whether "gay" should be used as an insult, and i'm pretty sure i have never used it as a serious insult (i know you don't care, but to me there's a bit difference) 16:03:16 s/particular/strong/ 16:03:31 i mean don't have a strong opinion when others use it 16:03:38 that's none of my business 16:03:39 don't argue you don't have an opinion after you argued about it for twenty minutes 16:04:47 how is it not your business? it's dehumanizing and bothers people. do you not have "a strong opinion" on racial slurs either? 16:05:21 i don't think that's quite what i argued 16:05:43 you just said "i don't have a strong opinion when others use it" 16:05:45 but yeah usually i try to argue for the minority side 16:05:51 except for right now? 16:05:56 because, i don't know? 16:06:08 what? 16:06:13 and normally you just love minorities but it's important to you that you can use them as insults 16:06:16 the minority side = people who use them as insults 16:06:18 here 16:06:22 are you shitting me 16:06:31 no 16:06:37 seriously, what the fuck. 16:06:51 you're not a fucking oppressed minority because you call things "gay" as an insult. 16:06:56 are you joking? 16:07:24 i mean that in a conversation, if people are arguing for x, i rarely try to defend x, i try to find arguments for !x instead 16:07:32 i don't mean i'm an oppressed minority 16:07:35 if I ever design a language, I'm going to include a "feature" whereby all identifiers of the form "{$s}or" are the same as the corresponding "{$s}our" 16:07:38 http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-johnson-says-superrich-are-putupon-minority-like-homeless-people-and-irish-travellers-8946661.html 16:07:51 wow that's so great you're a fucking robot just arguing for this on the basis i'm arguing against it 16:07:54 (seems relevant somehow) 16:08:19 well i don't quite see it that way 16:08:53 you don't seem to see much in any way, since you keep changing why you're arguing and everything else every time i rephrase it to call you a shithead 16:09:03 coppro: you should include -ize and -ise. 16:09:10 http://the-toast.net/2013/10/02/no-more-devils-advocate/ 16:10:11 int-e: good idea 16:10:37 well i don't think i've really changed my opinion much, i don't think i really said that i consider "gay" okay 16:10:45 scroll up 16:10:47 for god's sake 16:11:33 * LinearInterpol walks into this argument. 16:11:35 this conversation is stupid 16:11:37 LinearInterpol: don't 16:11:43 jesus 16:11:44 -!- nooodl has left ("Ik ga weg"). 16:11:51 well i agree that i shouldn't've tried to explain to kmc why it could be okay to call someone "gay" 16:12:02 i should've said "i agree, stupid question" 16:12:19 s/gay/homosexual 16:12:19 i guess i was annoyed at him 16:12:30 to this entire conversation. 16:12:38 what did he say that was so annoying 16:12:43 corrected me 16:12:49 for 'retarded'? 16:12:51 yes 16:13:00 why is that annoying 16:13:14 why is you being annoyed justification to use these stupid insults and defend their use 16:13:29 I understand. Being corrected does hurt. (Sigh, isn't this channel supposed to be about esoteric *computer* languages?) 16:13:33 well i'm not annoyed anymore 16:13:39 great well i am 16:13:59 * LinearInterpol turns 180 degrees and walks out. 16:14:00 i was annoyed at first, but yeah i do agree that i should not use that word 16:14:03 int-e: as if anyone but ais cares about being on topic 16:14:06 and he was right 16:14:23 you are infuriatingly slimy 16:14:31 ok 16:14:49 why? you basically made me agree with you? 16:15:12 "retard" "don't do that please" "actually, [defends usage for hours]" "what the fuck" "wait i actually agreed with you the whole time" 16:18:40 the fact that you two are arguing over the usage and etymology of a word or words saddens me. 16:18:45 you make me sad. 16:19:53 don't make me sad. :( 16:20:03 you won't like him when he's sad 16:20:10 yeah, I cry a lot. 16:20:11 words are, on occasion, important. and i'll keep your sadness in mind next time i see an argument about whether python is Really A Functional Language Or Not 16:20:39 Bike: functional as in it does something or functional as in the paradigm? because I'm debating both. 16:20:40 :) 16:21:24 as in programmers are notoriously ridiculously pedantic but when i object to a dehumanizing insult i'm just being weird 16:22:06 if we were pedantic in our everyday speech, our annoyance factor would increase exponentially. 16:22:28 rather, *exstensively pedantic. 16:22:30 LinearInterpol: As, indeed, it does. :) 16:22:43 words are words. 16:22:51 thankfully, it's really pretty rare that i feel the need to object to somebody's language, since most people are mildly empathetic enough to not curse like fourteen year olds on xbox live 16:23:03 -!- `^_^v has joined. 16:23:08 if I got offended over the use of a word you didn't take offense to.. 16:23:19 would you defend me in the same manner? 16:23:25 depends on the word 16:23:30 nerds! 16:23:33 should I use some 19th-century example? 16:24:13 * int-e lights the pyre. 16:24:30 i haven't been arguing not to use 'gay' because of its history, just that people are going to feel bad when their identity is used as an insult 16:24:41 something like 'lunatic' or whatever silly thing you're thinking of isn't really comparable 16:24:52 it was then. 16:24:56 it isn't now 16:25:05 it is the 21st century if you haven't noticed 16:25:10 and now we're back to etymology.. 16:25:34 plus, i'm actually mentally ill, i have some position to judge what is and isn't offensive as far as the euphemism treadmill of insanity goes 16:25:42 so am I. 16:25:45 so you can just stop right now if you would 16:26:06 I have the same position to judge as you do. 16:26:10 great 16:26:46 if you are offended, then I am sorry. those who offended you should apologize and be dealt with. 16:26:53 as is courtious. 16:27:12 if you actually find 'lunatic' offensive than sure i'd stop, but it seems pretty likely that you're just using an irrelevant example for rhetoric to justify calling things gay 16:27:32 never did I ever justify calling things gay. 16:27:50 never did I ever justify using retard. 16:27:56 then why are you arguing with me 16:28:30 I'm pointing out that you and oklopol bitching back and forth about the meaning and usage of a word is counterproductive to solving you being offended. 16:28:39 how is it counterproductive 16:28:45 because it does nothing to remedy it. 16:28:48 :\ 16:28:55 yes it does, it prevents gay people from being insulted 16:29:05 and are you gay? 16:29:16 me? no, but my friend fiora is and she was bothered enough to leave 16:29:54 well then I think she deserves an apology, as do you. 16:29:59 I don't think that arguing will ever prevent anything. 16:30:14 (and I don't think #esoteric is the place for it, unless it's about esolangs) 16:30:26 mountain dew is the best soda ever made. 16:30:29 * LinearInterpol runs for cover. 16:30:47 mrhmouse: "poltiically correct english" seems esoteric enough ;-) (sorry, could not resist.) 16:31:00 You people :P 16:31:09 what do you mean "you people"? :P 16:31:17 arguing about anything is pointless, knowledge is impossible, opinions are inbuilt into people and unchangeable 16:31:17 * LinearInterpol ducks. 16:31:43 * int-e bows to Bike's superior wisdom and shuts up. 16:31:53 all is void 16:31:54 Bike: so focus on solving your own notion of offense. 16:32:01 what does that mean 16:32:12 means find a way to make you happy when you're offended. :P 16:32:15 solve the situation. 16:33:12 arguing is like target practice, only you're not shooting for the bullseye, you're shooting for a mountain that's completely out of the way, and none of your arrows/bullets will ever reach it, and even if they do, you'll never see it. 16:33:22 i have come up with a solution, which is to tell people that they're being offensive, and then about half the time they'll stop because it isn't really a big deal for them, and the other half of the time i'll argue with them for hours and learn that in this situation only argument is impossible and pointless and i'm just being excessively pedantic 16:33:25 you could be shooting at the bullseye. 16:33:26 * mrhmouse admirs the zen of LinearInterpol 16:33:33 s/r/er 16:33:36 can we just shut up, i already admitted i was wrong (in pm, to Bike, at least). 16:33:48 * LinearInterpol bows and sits. 16:33:51 i will try to behave 16:34:08 i have been saying years that i'm an asshole and asked why i'm never called out on it 16:34:13 . o O ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y ) 16:34:14 now i was called out on it 16:34:20 and i will do something about it. 16:34:34 so yeah, about those esolangs. 16:34:52 sorry oklopol, argument is pointless, you have to be an asshole since you were born that way 16:34:58 tragic imo 16:34:58 :) 16:35:23 well fuck u 2 lol 16:35:30 that's the spirit. 16:35:42 beer for everyone! 16:35:47 yuck. 16:36:29 $ALCOHOLICBEVERAGE for everyone! 16:36:53 I can't have alcohol; is there an alcohol-free substitute? 16:37:06 $DRINK 16:37:10 $PREFERREDBEVERAGE for everyone! 16:37:20 there, now we can't go wrong. 16:37:23 v0.3 16:37:42 99 bottles of $PREFERREDBEVERAGE on the wall, 99 bottles of ${PREFERREDBEVERAGE}... 16:37:48 (Isn't it funny how a "drink" tends to be alcoholic...) 16:37:50 XD 16:39:28 take one down, pass it around, 16:39:53 98 bottles of $PREFERREDBEVERAGE on the wall. 16:40:13 btw, I recommend to call it $REFRESHINGBEVERAGE instead 16:40:27 isn't that copyrighted by Coca-Cola? 16:40:51 Nevermind, that's "the drink that refreshes" I think... 16:40:52 $NONCOPYRIGHTEDREFRESHINGBEVERAGE 16:41:03 $FOSB 16:41:12 $COSB 16:41:14 -!- itsy has quit (Client Quit). 16:41:18 COSB? 16:41:29 cosb. 16:41:36 Cold Open Source Beverages? 16:41:40 yep. 16:41:50 still can't believe those actually exist 16:41:59 Me either. 16:42:09 People apparently forgot about recipies. 16:42:12 tap water. 16:42:23 which classify as Free Open Source Food. 16:42:51 (I'm living in one of those privileged countries where tap water is actually drinkable.) 16:42:51 well, you can copyright them, people just pirate the shit out of them or use ones old enough to be public domain 16:42:54 much like jazz 16:43:16 (Me too.) 16:43:18 -!- nooga has joined. 16:44:19 (Me too, technically. I don't recommend it.) 16:44:48 I'm so far up north that nobody in the U.S cares. 16:44:56 Yet we're still classified as a state. 16:45:15 Great water up here. 16:49:03 -!- impomatic has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 16:53:29 I'm so far up North that I'm at Canada. 16:57:38 lol, hi boily. 16:59:00 how's the weather in your southernorth? 16:59:15 feels like spring. 17:05:29 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 17:07:31 -!- Bike has joined. 17:16:18 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 17:17:51 -!- Bike has joined. 17:40:31 ~metar EFHK 17:40:31 EFHK 131720Z 32007KT CAVOK M13/M16 Q1014 NOSIG 17:40:38 Very springy. 17:41:59 -!- ^v has joined. 17:44:05 ~metar KBGR 17:44:05 KBGR 131653Z 18008KT 10SM FEW200 06/M05 A2999 RMK AO2 PRESFR SLP157 T00611050 17:51:50 Here they keep doing those water quality lab tests, and the tap water keeps beating the commercial bottled options. 17:54:03 (Though apparently that's just because of chlorination and not sitting in storage for ages &c.) 17:58:02 -!- FreeFull has joined. 18:00:21 oklopol: dude it's not "bullying" or "ganging up" to politely mention to someone when they have (often unintentionally) hurt someone 18:00:34 people often respond with "oh i'm sorry" and then go on with their fucking lives 18:00:39 people who are not you, that is 18:01:33 * LinearInterpol dives for cover. 18:02:01 Hm 18:02:19 I just got an idea for IOCCC. I guess I'll have to try to remember it for half a year 18:02:37 FireFly: write it down! 18:02:41 LinearInterpol: the point of "arguing about words" is that words shape the entire fucking world we live in 18:02:57 oh for the love of.. we just stopped this man, don't bring it back up. :\ 18:02:57 it's totally disingenuous to say "you're just arguing about words!!!" when we are arguing about how human beings should treat other human beings 18:03:19 sigh, that's not what I meant.. 18:03:28 and especially, about how human beings in a position of social dominance should treat human beings who are historically oppressed, often to the point of lethal violence 18:03:58 look, all I was trying to say is that arguing is pointless, and that those two should get down to solving the problem of being offended with something akin to an apology. 18:04:12 * LinearInterpol exits this conversation. again. :\ 18:04:25 well I agree that arguing with oklopol is pointless 18:04:39 I have actually changed people's minds with discussion in the past, and I've definitely had my mind changed 18:04:48 I used to be a lot worse about this stuff!! 18:04:59 we all learn from each other and get better 18:05:25 I agree that by the time "discussion" progresses to "arguing" it's often of negative net value 18:05:34 If you have things to say, you can say it, but yes it is a good idea to try to learn better, instead. 18:05:39 being offended essentially means that someone essentially took something from you, and you want something equivalent in return that'll make you happy again. 18:05:51 I don't agree with that 18:05:55 such as an apology, or a gift, or something. 18:06:01 just something to quell the situation. 18:06:23 it sounds like you are more interested in smoothing things over than in making our community more kind 18:06:35 -!- FreeFull has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 18:06:44 if it makes everyone happy, then that means kindness. 18:06:50 no it really doesn't 18:06:57 drama over IRC sucks. 18:06:58 * LinearInterpol leaves. 18:07:14 "making everyone happy" usually means making people in a position of power happy and making marginalized people decide to stay quiet 18:07:17 i.e. continuing the status quo 18:07:20 -!- LinearInterpol has left ("Hack the planet."). 18:08:01 god forbid we should have a channel that's 99.5% straight white men instead of 100% 18:09:43 It shouldn't matter if the channel is 99.5% or 100% straight white men; it is a completely irrelevant situation! If it ends up being 45% then that should be OK too, but if it ends up being something like 263% or -10% then clearly we have a problem, isn't it? 18:09:53 :D 18:09:56 zzo38 you are the best 18:09:58 -!- LinearInterpol has joined. 18:10:03 wb LinearInterpol 18:10:06 we done? 18:10:11 * boily hands LinearInterpol a zzo38 18:10:20 * LinearInterpol fumbles about with it. 18:10:43 you sure ragequit and never came back over that drama 18:10:52 for a whole two minutes and thirty-eight seconds 18:10:58 it was a long forever, elliott. 18:11:14 had to take a bathroom break, too. god it was boring. 18:11:24 arguing is fundamentally irrational and since nobody actually has a serious problem it won't last,, see 18:11:32 I don't actually know about QUIT, but there was PART. 18:11:34 * LinearInterpol bashes his head on his desk. 18:11:51 LinearInterpol: How hard is the wood in your desk? 18:12:02 hard. 18:12:08 LinearInterpol: well I'm rapidly running out of fucks to give... if this is the kind of community y'all want to have then who am I to fight it 18:12:18 but, no, I- 18:12:23 Hard enough to break your head? 18:12:23 you're making assumptions. :( 18:12:29 zzo38: at this rate, yes. 18:12:31 assumptions based on what you are literally saying 18:12:43 ffs. 18:12:49 fine, you wanna do this, let's do this. 18:12:55 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o elliott. 18:12:58 -!- elliott has set channel mode: +q *!*@*. 18:13:00 let's not 18:13:03 and say we did 18:13:05 -!- mrhmouse has quit (Quit: liek omg becky called me a name wtfbbq highschool is hard). 18:13:39 -!- LinearInterpol has left. 18:13:50 -!- FreeFull has joined. 18:15:24 -!- elliott has set channel mode: -q *!*@*. 18:15:26 -!- elliott has set channel mode: -o elliott. 18:16:05 thanks mrhmouse, really feeling welcome here 18:17:10 " well I agree that arguing with oklopol is pointless" i'm not sure what you guys actually want, i agree that i was wrong, why is that not enough? 18:17:23 ow, why does 'hg grep' consider the whole history of files by default ... 18:17:34 oklopol: nah, i'm done, thanks though 18:17:35 If it gets muted like that, post your message on #esoteric#shadow and then it will remain logged too 18:17:47 iint-e: I don't know. 18:18:01 Was there a reason for +q *!*@* instead of +m or was it just an arbitrary choice? 18:18:05 Can you tell it not to consider the whole history of files? 18:20:02 ok 18:21:31 meanwhile, https://github.com/Katee/quietnet doesn't work as well as thought. 18:24:13 ion: I wanted to know too, but now there is work-around regardless which way is done 18:24:56 (So hg grep does not do what I expected it to do. Fine. Back to grep -r then.) 18:26:39 oklopol: I missed your most clear admission that you were wrong, above 18:26:51 thanks for admitting it :) 18:29:30 boily: what's the use case for such a program, besides exfiltrating data to nearby servers? 18:30:21 int-e: no idea. the novelty is tempting, if only for a few minutes of relaxation between to tickets. 18:30:32 -!- FreeFull has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 18:32:01 -!- Sellyme has quit (Excess Flood). 18:33:03 -!- Sellyme has joined. 18:34:07 (I understand that the NSA has various technologies for bridging air gaps. Sound would be a fairly obvious choice.) 18:39:05 the POC uses PSK31. seems it needs two very close machines, with good quality audio equipment, and a noiseless environment for it to work reliably. 18:40:07 so, bridging the air is very unlikely, unless the NSA uses Secret Mutant Waves with Exceptional Compression. probably something tachyon based. 18:40:39 You never know with the NSA 18:42:46 How about that acoustic sidechannel thing? They got p. impressive results out of it, and that was just listening to the sounds of OpenSSL; it sounds rather likely that, with some active help from the server you're listening to, you could get better. (I mean, it doesn't have to be near ultrasound, it can be just some acoustic steganography.) 18:44:19 -!- stuntaneous has quit. 18:44:48 Sorry, GnuPG. 18:45:15 if it's acoustic classification, with a constricted domain, that has already been proved with very interesting experiments. 18:45:27 http://www.cs.tau.ac.il/~tromer/acoustic/ "plain mobile phone placed next to the computer, or a more sensitive microphone placed 4 meters away" next server at a colo place doesn't sound entirely infeasible. 18:46:06 I guess those maybe don't come with microphones. 18:47:39 The keyboard-keys-from-typing-sounds one was funky too. 18:48:28 the one were they went into a medical clinic and gleaned off plenty of private informations :D 18:48:40 -!- conehead has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 18:49:31 At one time I could tell from the noise if the CPU is busy; I replaced the power supply now though. 18:50:04 With proper soundproofing/filters can you avoid this? 18:50:14 I can tell from the noise if the CPU is busy; but that's just the fans spinning up in response to more heat. 18:50:28 can you put a tinfoil hat on your desktop? 18:50:37 -!- peapodamus2 has joined. 18:50:39 -!- peapodamus has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 18:51:14 "Conversely, a sufficiently strong wide-band noise source can mask the informative signals, though ergonomic concerns may render this unattractive." (Countermeasures section of the Q&A-format summary.) 18:51:39 "Why does your computer sound like a jet engine taking off?" "Oh, I'm just foiling NSA here." 18:51:47 “strong wideband noise source,” aka. “your cow orker's radio” 18:52:07 fizzie: Yes, I suppose the fans too, but I wasn't talking about fans. 18:55:48 -!- conehead has joined. 18:59:25 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 19:00:40 -!- Bike has joined. 19:02:42 That reminds me of this "BadBIOS" thing from last year 19:03:02 http://arstechnica.com/security/2013/10/meet-badbios-the-mysterious-mac-and-pc-malware-that-jumps-airgaps/ 19:03:39 nice pic 19:05:01 so, what's the verdict on that? is it really real, or just an overhyped simili-scam? 19:06:03 Signs point towards "real" (see NSA toy catalogue) but I have not seen any final verdict. (Then again I have not really been paying attention.) 19:07:08 People who I trust when it comes to security-related questions seem to believe it's real, anyway, but I haven't been paying much attention either 19:07:13 And I'm not saying that this was the NSA, just that such technology does exist. It still sounds quite wild. At least USB thumb drives are a plausible attack vector. 19:08:25 i didn't think bios/uefi-eating malware was uncommon 19:08:44 remember also that the NSA catalog is 7 years old 19:09:24 Bike: it's the detail that this one bridges airgaps that makes it so interesting. 19:09:56 sure, the article just makes bios-eating sound uncommon in itself 19:10:33 The main thing is that we don't have tools for finding such malware. It could be in any of the busmaster capable hardware devices, virtually all of which have their own firmware. 19:10:49 throw your computer into a river 19:11:08 computer proceeds to vibrate at a particular frequency, thus infecting the entire river 19:11:14 Don't trust a computer you cannot throw out of the window directly into the river. 19:11:22 good advice 19:11:29 we all know that it takes a steel foundry to really destroy malware. 19:12:05 is the St-Lawrence River good enough? it's long, it's large, it has fish. 19:12:16 fish are a notorious attack vector 19:12:28 There's a church of St Lawrence along the road from me 19:13:32 when dna computing based storage drives incorporated as your appendix become common y'all are fucked, imma gonna attack that shit 19:14:25 don't you dare append me, you vile scoundrel! 19:14:58 but don't you see, boily... the appendix was in you all along 19:15:24 noooooooo! betrayed by my own body! damn you, internal organs and various tidbits! 19:15:31 maybe we need to replace our airgaps with vacuum gaps 19:15:52 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:17:21 http://natsec.newamerica.net/nsa/analysis coo 19:19:18 it seems like these days, one should always guess UTF-8 if the input is valid UTF-8 19:19:44 how often will real world EUC-KR text happen to be valid UTF-8? 19:24:38 Well, I guess it's fair to guess ASCII if the input is also valid ASCII in addition to being valid UTF-8 19:25:16 it depends on the purpose for which you're making a guess 19:26:01 for most purposes i would rather guess UTF-8 because then you have *some* chance of handling high-bit bytes correctly 19:26:23 also because there is no code but Unicode and UTF-8 is its transport 19:26:28 I suppose 19:26:54 inch'Unicode! 19:27:12 iä iä 19:27:55 oh, shit. fish have a disease called 'whirling disease'. that owns 19:28:09 «Fish "whirl" forward in an awkward, corkscrew-like pattern instead of swimming normally, find feeding difficult, and are more vulnerable to predators.» 19:28:11 -!- peapodamus2 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 19:28:20 my computer virus is also a nematode 19:29:50 i guess it would be more appropriate for it to be a computer /worm/, huh. 19:30:06 -!- peapodamus has joined. 19:32:22 libchardet is a bit naive when it comes to probabilities. As far as I can make out, "ä" encodes an empty string; it's merely a "shift" token that switches a decoder into EU-KR mode. 19:33:11 EUC-KR. 19:35:45 and s/lib//; libchardet is a C++ thingy while I looked at the chardet Python thingy. 19:37:56 Then again, by the looks of it, one of them is a direct port of the other. 19:39:04 # Contributor(s): 19:39:05 # Mark Pilgrim - port to Python 19:45:50 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 19:46:33 how much effort woul be needed to unnaïvify chardet? 19:47:53 you know the thing where people say things that you more or less agree with, but they're so annoying about it that you feel bad about having an opinion similar to theirs 19:49:30 yes 19:49:33 do you have an example? 19:50:25 probably rude and pointless to name anyone in particular 19:50:51 maybe past versions of myself. what an obnoxious person :( 19:58:29 boily: I don't know. For UTF-8, it takes 1 - (0.495)^n as the probability if only 0 < n < 6, where n is the number of characters (well, code points) parsed. That looks very ad hoc. For EUC-KR, it somehow uses character frequencies, but I have not figured out the details. So I don't know whether all those "confidences" are comparible. What's missing as well, I think, is some reasonable a priory distribution of character... 19:58:35 ...encodings, so that Bayes' theorem can be applied. 20:02:17 how about the universal prior 20:03:21 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 20:04:25 int-e: the unnaïvification is untrivial, eh? 20:12:36 -!- MindlessDrone has quit (Quit: MindlessDrone). 20:17:45 -!- impomatic has quit (Quit: impomatic). 20:20:11 http://www.stephenwolfram.com/publications/short-talk-about-richard-feynman/ 20:20:34 wolfram pushes boundaries of scraping the bottom of the barrel, makes breakthrough 20:31:58 -!- Bike has joined. 20:32:09 "a priory", i like that 20:32:35 makes me imagine a bunch of nuns hard at work doing math 20:32:36 -!- ais523 has joined. 20:39:45 "In agro, in mathematica analysis complexam, certis de quavis ratione lineam moduli totum integrale est in complexu per vias plano." 20:40:08 'the quickest way to the reals is through the complex plane'? 20:41:57 who am I to question the Ways of our Complex Plane? 20:50:32 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 20:51:11 -!- Sellyme has quit (Excess Flood). 20:53:34 -!- Sellyme has joined. 21:06:23 -!- jix has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 21:06:31 -!- jix has joined. 21:12:05 -!- atrapado has joined. 21:16:12 -!- Bike has joined. 21:17:20 -!- nys has joined. 21:20:39 -!- callforjudgement has joined. 21:21:40 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 21:22:09 -!- Sellyme has quit (Excess Flood). 21:24:03 -!- Sellyme has joined. 21:24:21 callforjudgement: I like your hobbies. 21:24:33 -!- callforjudgement has changed nick to ais523. 21:24:38 -!- Sellyme has quit (Excess Flood). 21:26:34 -!- Sellyme has joined. 21:28:20 really don't feel comfortable here anymore :/ 21:30:34 kmc: I left #esoteric a while back because it was no longer talking about esoprogramming 21:30:39 and I don't really feel comfortable in social channels 21:30:49 I put it back on autojoin, though, hoping that it had got better 21:31:45 if i leave it might solve both of our problems 21:33:21 kmc: you aren't really contributing to the problem, from my point of view 21:33:39 except inasmuch as any channel with more than like 3 people is going to have differing opinions on what are and aren't acceptable offtopic subjects 21:34:31 i'm mostly upset because we seem to value avoiding "drama" more than standing up to bigots 21:35:06 I missed whatever it is that happened 21:35:29 I feel that the best option, when possible, is to avoid giving people a chance to be bigoted in the first place 21:35:37 but sadly you can't really do that with lax topicality rules 21:36:24 -!- Sellyme has quit (Excess Flood). 21:36:34 -!- Sellyme has joined. 21:36:51 i asked oklopol not to use "retarded" as a pejorative and his response was to start defending the use of the word "gay" as a pejorative, even though he admits it's wrong, because he wanted to annoy me for being a "bully" 21:37:01 that's something which could easily come up in discussion of esolangs 21:37:10 for example if i call someone's esolang "retarded" 21:37:21 right 21:37:27 -!- ^v has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:37:28 the channel used to be a lot /worse/ in that respect, actually 21:37:40 but most of the offenders just left naturally 21:37:41 yeah, i've heard 21:38:43 I would prefer it if people just used accuracy in their pejoratives 21:39:17 something like "stupid" would be fine, IMO, but saying "retarded" just creates confusion while offending people at the same time, which seems strictly worse 21:39:24 *nod* 21:40:26 i'm frustrated less by oklopol (who admitted in the end he was wrong) and more by all the other people who were like "ugh DRAMA" or "you're just arguing about words", as though how we treat each other isn't important 21:40:58 kmc, if I was one of the annoying people I'm sorry 21:41:06 Taneb: I didn't observe you to say anything at all, but thank you 21:41:47 Also, on a completely different and probably more on topic note, I am still trying to see if I can get an audience in front of which I can create an esolang live 21:41:52 I have problems moderating small-ish channels like this, I'm more used trying to moderate a channel with 1000+ users without having mod powers 21:42:02 that sounds hellish 21:42:14 when you can normally assume that there will be some trolls/troublemakers who will try to make things worse no matter what 21:42:27 my normal approach is to attempt to drown them out, which involves making a distraction 21:42:40 all this doesn't actually work in #esoteric, but I normally attempt it anyway because habit 21:42:41 Taneb: target IBNIZ for extra nerd cred 21:43:16 Taneb: create an esolang, as in spec? interp? 21:43:30 Spec 21:44:42 hey hey guys i have an idea for an esolang 21:44:56 nys: go on 21:45:24 alright so the idea of languages like iota and jot and SK is to make the smallest number of primitives that you can construct everything else from, right? 21:45:42 nys: yes, functionally 21:46:33 what if the goal was instead to find a relatively small set of combinators that you could transform practical algorithms into compactly 21:46:44 nys: that's where SKI come from 21:46:51 sounds like golfscript 21:46:52 SKI isn't compact though 21:46:53 although it's not that compact 21:47:18 the concatenative languages aim for practical combinators, often 21:47:29 something like Underlambda, which is unfinished, from the eso side 21:47:32 or Joy from the non-eso side 21:47:56 ais523, how is Underlambda going, by the way 21:47:58 even Underload's combinators aren't too bad ( (), ^ and : are Turing-complete by themselves, the rest are basically just there to allow you to approach a sensible coding style) 21:48:05 Taneb: I haven't worked on it for a while 21:48:16 especially now that type system design (and thus language design) is my day job 21:48:22 i was thinking of searching exhaustively through the possible combinators for a particular program 21:48:34 that takes a lotta time 21:48:40 even for very basic programs 21:48:43 :< 21:48:50 also it's impossible in general, you provably can't compare functions in general 21:49:00 although you can in many practically useful special cases 21:49:16 see http://blog.regehr.org/archives/923 21:49:31 ais523, oh? Where/on what are you working? 21:49:32 i've only read the original paper tho 21:49:51 Taneb: Birmingham University 21:50:00 *University of Birmingham 21:50:52 actually, the "you can't compare functions" thing came up just a couple of days ago 21:51:17 circuit equivalence is decidable 21:51:30 thus, any language without decidable equivalence obviously is unsuitable for compilation into hardware 21:51:46 which is a really nice quick sanity check for rejecting possible type systems 21:52:39 wait what 21:53:47 digital circuit equivalence, that is 21:54:03 I'm not sure about analog, it probably is too but real numbers screw things up 21:54:27 one method that's inefficient but works is to convert the entire thing to a state machine 21:54:29 this is a world i was not aware of until just now 21:55:17 well if you have a function that just takes in an inductively defined datatype, aren't there only so many cases to prove equivalent results for? 21:55:44 nys: well one thing you can do is restrict the types of loops, by requiring all loops to be bounded in advance 21:55:51 e.g. by the size of the data type you passed in 21:56:06 if you do that, you have a "primitive recursive" function, equivalence is decidable for those 21:56:20 but nonetheless, a lot of practical programs work with primitive recursive functions only 21:56:29 is Y one of those? 21:56:46 no, Y can't be done with primitive recursion only, it needs general recursion 21:57:28 actually the point of the Y combinator is to show that untyped lambda calculus supports general recursion without the need for extra combinators/constants 21:57:34 -!- Sprocklem has joined. 21:57:45 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 21:57:46 this problem is starting to not sound like a good match for an untyped kinda system :D 21:58:06 (btw, the Y combinator is a specific implementation of a fixed-point combinator; normally people use "fix" if referring to fixed-point combinators in general) 21:58:24 ah 21:58:42 i'm spotty in general 21:59:00 sort-of like the difference between a fast fourier transform and a discrete fourier transform 21:59:50 I have a 9:30 practical in the morning :( 21:59:51 also there are two different Y combinators, one for strict (call-by-value) semantics and one for non-strict (call-by-name) 21:59:58 Taneb: that's not a very practical time is it 22:00:13 kmc, it means I have to get up earlier 22:00:24 Oh wait that was a funny 22:00:27 Sorry, I'm tired 22:00:33 wow i didn't know the distinction between fft and dft until now either 22:00:50 kmc: wow, that's such a weird way of looking at the difference between call-by-value and call-by-name 22:00:59 I'm rather skewed on this because I work almost exclusively with call-by-name 22:01:26 and see call-by-value as sugar for creating an assignable variable and initializing it with your function argument 22:01:51 hm 22:02:06 in a system where assignment forces evaluation? 22:02:39 kmc: yeah 22:03:23 actually it's the only way to force evaluation atm, apart from the FFI 22:03:30 and the if statement 22:03:38 and the while statement 22:04:03 -!- Bike has joined. 22:04:04 speaking of which have you heard of that thing showing how you convert an evaluator into an abstract machine or back? 22:04:22 futumura projections? 22:04:25 most languages also have strict arithmetic because they want to use machine arithmetic 22:04:30 but it's not the only way to do arithmetic 22:05:02 kmc: the implementation we're working on is a bit weird, we use hardcoded connections between circuits 22:05:34 which basically means that we can't have any values more complex than integers 22:05:46 -!- FreeFull has joined. 22:07:59 -!- tibuda has joined. 22:08:26 -!- tibuda has left ("Saindo"). 22:10:29 we have a paper where we implemented a recursive Fibonacci on this thing 22:11:02 it's even less efficient than the normal recursive Fibonacci because it has to go and subtract all the 1s from the argument over and over again 22:11:13 heh 22:11:44 we managed to get it published anyway though 22:12:02 i like that recursive fib is an example of an algorithm where computing f(n) takes f(n) steps 22:12:04 lol 22:12:07 http://www.cs.bham.ac.uk/~drg/papers/icfp11.pdf 22:12:16 kmc: isn't that connected to euclid's algorithm somehow 22:12:31 or maybe just the golden ratio. it's e-y 22:12:54 the closed form formula for fib(n) uses φ yeah 22:13:04 kmc: isn't that true of pretty much any algorithm that just forms numbers via adding up 1s? 22:13:15 sounds like it 22:13:23 Doesn't f(n+1)/f(n) approach phi in the limit? 22:13:33 Taneb: yes 22:13:49 this is because φ²=φ+1 22:14:00 well i mean, i know that, i'm trying to remember if this is connected to the time complexity bit 22:14:29 -!- mrhmouse has joined. 22:14:43 i have half a blog post written about learning linear algebra via one of the less stupid fib algorithms 22:15:01 > let fibs = fix ((0:) . scanl (+) 1) in (fibs !! 1000) / (fibs !! 999) 22:15:01 the closed form formula for fib(n) uses φ yeah 22:15:02 1.6180339887498951 22:15:06 the stupid one is one of the better recursion benchmarks, though 22:15:10 also the other solution to that one equation 22:15:24 > (1 + sqrt 5) / 2 22:15:25 1.618033988749895 22:15:34 wow pretty close 22:15:42 does that converge slow? 22:15:46 like the rational approximations do 22:15:58 > 13/5 22:15:59 2.6 22:16:01 Wait 22:16:05 > 13/8 22:16:06 1.625 22:16:06 gj 22:16:13 > 21/13 22:16:14 1.6153846153846154 22:16:22 > 34/21 22:16:23 1.619047619047619 22:16:38 I don't actually know how fast convergences generally are 22:16:48 -!- nooodl has joined. 22:17:19 well, like, the contfrac for phi is 1/(1+1/(1+1/...)) and that gives the best rational approximations 22:17:22 however, they all suck 22:17:33 ~eval 1 + 1 / (1 + 1 / (1 + 1 / (1 + 1 / 1))) 22:17:36 Error (1): 22:17:38 ~eval 1 + 1 / (1 + 1 / (1 + 1 / (1 + 1 / 1))) 22:17:39 1.6 22:17:43 like that 22:17:58 > let f x = 1 + 1/x in iterate f 1 22:17:59 [1.0,2.0,1.5,1.6666666666666665,1.6,1.625,1.6153846153846154,1.6190476190476... 22:18:09 hey, two significative numbers is pretty good in my book. 22:18:12 i like how it goes up and down 22:19:38 oh, the other thing I liked in that paper, was that I got to use Algol 60 for a serious reason, even though it was 2011 22:19:49 :) 22:20:37 my supervisor was surprised that I managed to get hold of a working Algol 60 compiler after this long 22:20:48 let's see, the square root of two is [1;1,2,1,2,1,2,...] i think, how do you haskell that 22:21:02 > 1 ++ cycle [1,2] 22:21:03 No instance for (GHC.Show.Show a0) 22:21:03 arising from a use of `M60779866017779691048889.show_M60779866017779691048... 22:21:03 The type variable `a0' is ambiguous 22:21:03 Possible fix: add a type signature that fixes these type variable(s) 22:21:03 Note: there are several potential instances: 22:21:07 er no it's [1;2,2,2,2] maybe 22:21:13 yes. 22:21:20 except with a bajillion 2's obv 22:21:26 lambdabot: that's a really useless error message 22:21:31 > 1 : cycle [2] 22:21:32 [1,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2... 22:21:37 oh right 22:21:38 > let f x = 2 + 1/x in iterate f 1 22:21:39 [1.0,3.0,2.3333333333333335,2.4285714285714284,2.411764705882353,2.414634146... 22:21:47 Not like that 22:21:51 noted 22:21:55 the problem being that lambdabot had enough definitions floating around that it could somehow concatenate an int to a list? 22:22:04 :t ++ 22:22:05 parse error on input `++' 22:22:06 :t (++) 22:22:07 [a] -> [a] -> [a] 22:22:14 > map (\x -> 1 + 1 / x) $ iterate (\x -> 2 + 1 / x) 1 22:22:15 [2.0,1.3333333333333333,1.4285714285714286,1.411764705882353,1.4146341463414... 22:23:03 see, those are p. good 22:23:39 > let f x = 1 + 1/x in iterate f 1 !! 1e6 22:23:40 Could not deduce (GHC.Real.Fractional GHC.Types.Int) 22:23:40 arising from the literal `1e6' 22:23:40 from the context (GHC.Real.Fractional a) 22:23:40 bound by the inferred type of it :: GHC.Real.Fractional a => a 22:23:40 at Top level 22:23:45 > let f x = 1 + 1/x in iterate f 1 !! 1000000 22:23:46 *Exception: stack overflow 22:24:58 > let sums = map (foldr (\x y -> x + 1 / y) 1) . inits in sums (1 : repeat 2) 22:24:59 [1.0,2.0,1.3333333333333333,1.4285714285714286,1.411764705882353,1.414634146... 22:25:28 @let sums = map (foldr (\x y -> x + 1 / y) 1) . inits 22:25:29 Defined. 22:25:30 hth 22:25:39 > sums (1 : cycle [1,2]) 22:25:41 [1.0,2.0,1.5,1.75,1.7142857142857144,1.7333333333333334,1.7307692307692308,1... 22:25:45 > sqrt 3 22:25:47 1.7320508075688772 22:26:11 ) (1 + %)^:(<10) 1 22:26:12 FireFly: 1 2 1.5 1.66667 1.6 1.625 1.61538 1.61905 1.61765 1.61818 22:26:35 -!- boily has quit (Quit: FLYING CHICKEN!). 22:26:37 -!- metasepia has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:26:43 ) (1 + %)^:1e6 ] 1 22:26:44 FireFly: 1.61803 22:27:00 > let convergents = sums 22:27:01 not an expression: `let convergents = sums' 22:27:08 @let convergents = sums 22:27:09 Defined. 22:27:51 -!- atrapado has quit (Quit: Leaving). 22:27:51 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_letters_used_in_mathematics_and_science this is great 22:28:41 Um 22:28:45 Isn't there another similar list somewhere? 22:28:50 On Wikipedia I mean 22:29:07 Bike: now you gotta turn it into a song 22:29:17 i'm no lehrer. 22:29:19 i also saw Ш used for a pulse train i.e. a function f(x) which takes on the value 1 on a set of measure zero and 0 elsewhere 22:29:22 v. cute 22:29:26 ha. 22:29:34 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_letters_used_in_mathematics 22:29:43 Seems a bit.. redundant? 22:30:30 probably arabic letters have been used in algebra 22:30:35 but i'm not sure 22:30:40 what about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxcar_function 22:30:41 maybe they used greek out of Tradition 22:31:18 i don't think algebra was symbolic enough during the persian period 22:31:31 they'd write out "a quantity divided by four" or wetf 22:31:42 -!- mrhmouse has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 22:32:08 ah 22:32:23 (oh was it from persia and not arabia? same script i guess, anyway) 22:32:33 probably both 22:32:45 better than hindustan though, where they'd write it out in verse 22:32:48 how's that for eso 22:33:21 -!- atrapado has joined. 22:33:53 http://31.media.tumblr.com/db46eea7c7b668193a6a7dbf4e9f636b/tumblr_mzbi1t3gol1rb9lj8o1_1280.png in doge news 22:36:27 is that ''real'' 22:36:56 is ''real'' ''real'' 22:37:06 i read one of the three books you gave me to read 22:38:56 which one 22:39:15 The Eye in the Pyramid 22:39:36 were the other two also illuminatus 22:40:03 yes 22:40:20 but somehow starting the second one is more effort than continuing to a new chapter 22:41:07 my illuminatus copy has all three in one, very convenient 22:41:24 so does this one 22:42:00 o 22:42:22 "India is marking three years since its last reported polio case, a landmark in the global battle against the disease." 22:42:32 sweet 22:42:39 isn't it still bad in... pakistan? i wanna say pakistan 22:43:05 afghanistan, nigeria, and pakistan 22:43:12 I'd sort of guess some "first world" country getting polio back due to vaccination paranoia 22:43:53 well, you need to have some extant polio for that, and it's pretty totally eradicated in many countries 22:44:25 yeah I think we're a long way from that still 22:44:55 there are other disases already coming back for that reason, though :/ 22:45:20 the cdc says that there hasn't been a polio case in the US since 1979 22:45:37 i don't think the virus sticks around in animals and stuff like, say, plague, which is still extant in the US 22:47:01 " Poliovirus is however strictly a human pathogen, and does not naturally infect any other species" yeah 22:52:09 -!- oerjan has joined. 22:56:00 that's convenient 22:58:01 of course, HIV is the same way, and that's been kind of hard to eradicate >_> 23:00:53 yeah well at least it can't be spread through contaminated food or water 23:01:55 eradicating polio in Pakistan is harder because the Taliban keeps killing the medical workers 23:02:08 Bike: well i suspect some apes may be included too. but they're probably not a major infection source at this time. 23:03:15 also, you've missed syria; polio has reappeared there during the war. 23:03:19 :/ 23:03:38 -!- Bike_ has joined. 23:04:25 oerjan: HIV is a mutant of the one that infects chimps 23:04:37 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 23:04:44 oerjan: and yeah i heard about that, i was just glancing at a WHO page. i don't think it's actually epidemic there though? just like, a problem 23:04:47 -!- Bike_ has changed nick to Bike. 23:07:29 of course, HIV is the same way, and that's been kind of hard to eradicate >_> 23:07:33 can't vaccinate though 23:07:58 not yet 23:08:04 :) 23:08:09 vaccination means you can eliminate transmission in the human population, not being a zoonosis means there aren't any animal reservoirs to pop up after the vaccination passes over 23:08:22 (why am i saying this you surely know better than i) 23:08:46 yeah, i was just thinking of zoonosis 23:09:03 i wanted to come up with an example that was actually a virus, i mean plague is bacteria, or somethin 23:09:43 pig flu, bird flu, zebra flu, etc 23:10:24 flu flu 23:10:28 well those are species-specific too, they just mutate 23:10:37 there are virusy things that infect viruses, i think. weird shit 23:11:51 what's the current hip recursion meme, i think yo dawg and inception have both gone stale 23:12:25 maybe recursion memes have gone stale 23:12:29 -!- atrapado has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:12:37 maybe we don't need another one 23:12:45 also stuff like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viroid 23:12:46 there's some liquid water in my kitchen at 120°C 23:12:47 we will always need recursion memes 23:12:53 maybe we can make it a meme that recursion memes have gone stale 23:12:56 my chemistry textbook described viruses as "large molecules" which kind of rules 23:12:59 kmc, throw sand at it 23:13:04 Phantom_Hoover: yo dawg i heard you like recursion memes 23:15:49 * oerjan suddenly imagines little nanobot drones flying around vaccinating wild birds against flu 23:16:23 i suppose micro or milli may also do 23:16:48 -!- atrapado has joined. 23:16:53 bees 23:16:57 bees with vaccine stings 23:17:00 they could look like mosquitos, and handle malaria at the same time 23:17:16 the vaccine is also mosquito poison 23:17:40 Eradicate mosquitoes by 2050 23:17:43 you don't need to eradicate mosquitos if you eradicate malaria. of course you may want to anyway. 23:19:14 Bike: you're a large molecule 23:19:46 viruses that infect viruses? what? 23:20:12 oerjan: there might be nasty ecological consequences to eradicating mosquitos 23:20:21 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satellite_virus 23:20:41 it's um... once you get down to this level everything gets very blurry 23:20:41 kmc: which is why i didn't suggest it. well also a slight romantic disgust of eradicating species. 23:20:46 remember when mao tried to eradicate sparrows because they eat the crops and it turns out they also eat locusts which eat the crops way harder 23:21:10 359 nucleotides wow 23:21:21 yeah 23:21:50 Tomato bushy stunt? Turnip crinkle? 23:22:04 kmc: i suppose that's part of his 30% bad hth 23:22:52 some of you incl ais523 might like https://twitter.com/fbz/status/422844456958971904 23:23:09 thanks for the direct link 23:23:15 oerjan: only 30% bad? 23:23:16 the #! nonsense has a tendency of not working properly 23:23:24 oh I haven't seen the #! nonsense in a while 23:23:44 kmc: that's official! 23:23:49 maybe they got rid of it 23:23:51 I hope they did 23:24:36 kmc: tobacco mosaic, being the first virus found, has a ton of research on it, and i guess it was easiest to spread out into other plants 23:25:39 yep 23:26:31 is there a mosaic virus that does rule 110 patterns twh 23:26:46 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Textile_cone.JPG 23:29:38 model species are so weird, i have a book on muscle that uses a lot of rabbit psoas, and guess what the lab i'm working in does twenty years later 23:35:21 what's rabbit psoas? a kind of stew? 23:36:43 i like stew but i prefer stew made without rabbits or psoas 23:37:24 olsner: filet mignon 23:41:47 that makes me think of rabbit phoas or rabbit ptas 23:44:16 rabbit phở 23:44:25 nom 23:44:44 Việt Nom 23:44:48 -!- Sgeo has joined. 23:44:50 hi Sgeo 23:46:45 the psoas is a muscle in the back that is also filet mignon 23:49:19 this is 23:49:23 no 23:49:24 nothing 23:49:34 actually i'm pretty pissed off 23:53:30 why, it's tasty 23:53:47 -!- Sellyme has quit (Excess Flood). 23:56:33 -!- Sellyme has joined.