00:01:01 lis? 00:01:18 I like question marks for predicates better 00:01:58 Phantom__Hoover: So it determines if something is a fox? 00:02:23 yes 00:04:50 co to lis powiedzieć? 00:08:10 google is trying hard not to translate that either backwards or forwards 00:08:37 sensibly, i mean 00:15:20 -!- Zuu has left. 00:29:55 -!- Slereah__ has joined. 00:32:29 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 00:33:08 "Target player loses the game" 00:33:20 Seems like it could be fun to redirect that targetting, there are cards that can do that, right? 00:33:50 "This card is both funny, stupid, lame and awesome all rolled into one!" 00:38:57 -!- yorick has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:48:42 -!- Sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 01:12:59 https://github.com/torvalds/linux/blob/v3.12/arch/sparc/lib/checksum_32.S#L332-L335 01:14:49 8 byte aligned, kick ass 01:17:38 Would a 4-dimensional race discover the wire-crossing problem 01:18:20 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:22:50 Taneb: Possibly, but not necessarily with the same kind of application. 01:42:27 -!- ggherdov has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 01:56:08 -!- ggherdov has joined. 02:11:58 :-D http://www.theonion.com/articles/187-images-which-if-rapidly-clicked-through-will-c,34950/?utm_source=butt&utm_medium=butt&utm_campaign=butt 02:12:45 utm_source=butt&utm_medium=butt&utm_campaign=butt 02:14:36 I don't think that's The Onion's doing 02:14:44 the un-ion 02:14:50 Maybe ion has some sort of anti-utm extension? 02:14:51 It had some more boring tracking data but i fixed it. 02:14:56 oh 02:15:03 * Sgeo would be too lazy to fix the tracking data 02:15:20 If I feel like removing it, I usually just delete it 02:15:32 But linking the tracking data messes up the tracking anyway, doesn't it? 02:15:50 when i feel like removing it, i usually just remove it 02:16:20 sgeo: Well, it still tells them the source ended up spreading the link. 02:16:32 indirectly 02:20:28 ion: If they implemented that part. 02:20:58 I mean the source in utm_ parameters. 02:21:50 -!- Sellyme has quit (Excess Flood). 02:22:19 Still, maybe the implementation is incomplete. 02:23:28 I don't like "Target player loses the game" but you can make up variants, such as "When any player has no cards in his hand he loses the game", or "Whoever's life total exceeds one million loses the game", etc. 02:23:35 -!- Sellyme has joined. 02:25:57 i don't think the phrase "his hand" would appear on any card 02:26:59 Probably you are correct it might say "his or her hand", or it will be reworded in an entirely different way instead. 02:34:27 -!- impomatic has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 02:36:38 yes I think singular "they" or rewording to avoid the pronoun is much better than "his or her", generally 02:36:44 "her or his hand" 02:36:55 "his hand" would then appear on a card 02:37:02 part of why I like singular "they" is that it's good for trolling sphexish prescriptivists 02:37:16 I also use singular "they" sometimes 02:37:19 sometimes you can even get them to accidentally use singular "they" while they're explaining why singular "they" is such an abomination 02:37:30 I usually use Spivak pronouns 02:37:36 Got the habit from Agora 02:37:40 -!- Sellyme has quit (Excess Flood). 02:38:26 I've met people who prefer Spivak pronouns and I've met people who prefer "it" but none of them actively object to singular "they" 02:39:05 I object to "ey". I'm a traditionalist, "e" is much better. 02:39:16 (Even though ey makes more sense) 02:39:23 I don't know anyone who actively objects to singular "they", but they must exist 02:39:32 probably the same people who get really upset if you say "happy holidays" instead of "merry christmas" 02:40:34 -!- Sellyme has joined. 02:40:53 I mean, other than the grammar prescriptivists 02:42:12 I've seen the term eval-quote somewhere. I think I like it 02:42:40 To describe Tcl and Rebol and perhaps lisps where you'd write (if (> 2 1) '(print "a") '(print "b")) 02:42:46 Or something conceptually similar 02:43:34 would you also include Kernel in that category 02:43:39 with the quotation syntactically implicit 02:43:57 I think I wouldn't, I could have sworn I saw the term used to contrast against kernel 02:44:01 I tried some thing to figure out how UTF-8 is implemented in SQLite, and I think it is OK. It is generalized enough to not be specific to Unicode (as long as you don't try to convert to/from UTF-16), and functions that convert uppercase/lowercase/etc work on ASCII characters only, so it work OK. According to my experiment it treats any 0xC0...0xFF followed by any sequence of 0x80...0xBF as a single character, which is what I want. 02:44:34 (Although I would have simplified it a bit by just ignoring 0x80...0xBF in the count regardless, but the other way works too.) 02:45:35 Oh, this is where I got it from 02:45:35 http://fexpr.blogspot.com/2013/07/explicit-evaluation.html 02:46:05 Wand credited Albert Meyer for noting the trivialization effect. Meyer, though, noted that quote-eval (as opposed to fexprs) need not cause trivialization. (Meyer made this supplementary observation at least as early as 1986; see here, puzzle 3.) 02:46:32 But the fexprs mentioned might not be Kernel fexprs, I guess? I didn't read the whole thing thoroughly 02:49:56 kmc: did you see my post? 02:50:06 yeah 02:50:48 "trivialization" refers to the equational theory? 02:53:03 I meant my post on the klisp group 02:53:10 yeah I saw it 02:54:26 Ok 02:57:43 I wonder if there are any quote-eval languages as sanely designed as Kernel 02:57:52 Don't really consider Rebol sanely designed 02:57:54 Nor Tcl 02:58:51 What is quote-eval languages? 03:01:38 zzo38: no special forms, instead, you pass around blocks of code to functions that can then choose to interpret those blocks however they wish. Those blocks are not functions/closures, instead, they contain raw code 03:01:48 Well, I guess there can be special forms 03:01:57 And this is more my interpretation of the concept 03:01:59 But see Tcl 03:02:03 Does dc count? 03:02:12 I don't know anything about dc to be able to say 03:05:00 "Macros are then implemented by allowing registers and stack entries to be strings as well as numbers. A string can be printed, but it can also be executed (i.e. processed as a sequence of dc commands). So for instance we can store a macro to add one and then multiply by 2 into register m:" 03:05:19 Is this the primary means of using conditionals and loops etc.? 03:05:23 If so, I would say dc counts 03:05:25 Yes it is. 03:05:46 And the meaning of the commands can even change if the input base changes. 03:07:17 Anyways, I have another complaint about Kernel 03:09:57 What other complaint? 03:12:19 Writing higher-order functions may be more difficult than it should be, due to a combination of factors, some of which are not fundamental to Kernel's central concept, some of which might be 03:12:56 I'd say my other complaint is worse 03:17:04 Sgeo: does Underload count hth 03:18:38 oerjan: Yes that is the other one I thought of other than dc. 03:18:51 I would think it must count too 03:18:55 it seems to me that having both eval-quote and variable bindings would wreak havoc with lexical scoping, unless you reintroduce some way of capturing the environment of the caller, and isn't that what kernel does. 03:19:28 *quote-eval 03:20:28 although dynamic binding would work. in fact i think Logo works this way, and may be quote-eval. 03:21:21 oerjan: what Rebol does, which isn't perfect but is interesting, is have constructs that introduce a lexical scope go through all code it sees, and changes the words' scopes to a new object 03:21:31 Each word has its own scope, basically 03:21:47 huh 03:21:48 Does make it harder to construct code from whole cloth if you're not given input though 03:22:05 But in the normal case, I think it makes some sense 03:22:27 http://blog.revolucent.net/2009/07/deep-rebol-bindology.html 03:33:44 -!- Sorella has quit (Quit: It is tiem!). 03:46:43 A third criticism of Kernel, which I don't believe is significant enough to post (I think I saw it elsewhere): If you use applicatives to get an operative result, it's not necessarily immediately obvious that you're using an operative. And it feels like using operative results directly without naming them is part of the point 03:49:00 Underload [cost] (You may cast this spell for its underload cost. If you do, change its text by replacing all instances of "each" with "target.") 03:53:49 Underline 03:55:54 Sgeo: why are HoFs more difficult in Kernel? 04:05:57 -!- mauke has quit (Disconnected by services). 04:06:07 -!- mauke has joined. 04:08:32 kmc: look at how map and filter's rationales had to make a decision about whether to call their argument in the same dynamic environment or a clean one. This is a decision that needs to be made for each function that calls an argument function, and the choice isn't obvious (map makes one choice, filter makes another). I think filter's choice is mistaken, but if you go the other route, you may end up writing wrapped vaus instead of lambdas, 04:08:32 if your HOF is itself returning a function 04:08:35 -!- preflex_ has joined. 04:08:51 -!- preflex has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 04:08:56 fwiw, I think map made the right choice and filter didn't, and that map's choice makes more sense in general 04:09:00 -!- preflex_ has changed nick to preflex. 04:09:16 And apply should probably make the environment argument mandatory, it's something that always needs to be taken into consideration 04:09:29 what's the "clean" environment? 04:09:58 (make-environment) 04:10:10 "using a fresh empty environment for each call." (in filter's definition) 04:11:32 so in (filter (lambda (x) ...) xs) the lambda can't close over anything? or am I thinking of the wrong stage of evaluation? 04:12:26 or is the question, if i write (filter (vau (x) env ...) xs), what's 'env'? 04:12:36 kmc: that, I think 04:12:39 the what's env 04:12:46 filter has it be an empty environment, iiuc 04:12:59 (Well, you forgot to wrap the vau) 04:13:20 *nod* 04:15:43 i think my main problem with kernel has been $define! introducing new variables, which possibly shadow above environments, since it makes static analysis fucking painful 04:15:58 ". map calls its applicative argument using the dynamic environment of the call to map, because that behavior is followed by the code equivalence that map seeks to preserve; but filter has no comparable equivalence to preserve" 04:16:26 i also think shutt's design principles are bizarre but w/e 04:16:27 The way I interpret that rationale is "I can't find a nice equivalence to make the choice obvious, so I'll do whatever" 04:16:37 Bike: which? 04:16:52 I really, really like the design principles 04:17:05 But I think they haven't been applied perfectly 04:17:21 gee willikers 04:26:32 When my brother plays Puzzle Strike he prefers to put all the gems on the bottom like in Puzzle Fighter (and the board resembles Puzzle Fighter, in fact), but I just arrange them in any order; it doesn't have any effect on the game. 04:29:09 Most data in Kernel evaluates to itself 04:29:13 Except symbols and lists 04:29:36 I think there's a type problem with double-evalling, but the ability to double-eval some things is crucial to Kernel's hygiene approach 04:30:08 you could reduce it a lot if you add a 'combine' applicative. 04:30:17 But, lists don't play nice. They don't eval to themselves, simililarly to symbols. But Kernel goes out of its way to pretend that symbols are second-class citizens. It doesn't do the same with lists 04:30:21 (combine foo bar baz) = (eval (cons foo bar) baz) 04:30:24 I wonder if that's the root of some problems 04:33:57 I definitely had some trouble inducing the problem I posted about when trying to make it with add instead of length 04:34:07 Because double-eval on numbers is safe 04:50:00 > sort "2/~" 04:50:01 "/2~" 04:50:39 > sort "oerjan" 04:50:40 "aejnor" 04:50:45 sup aejnor 04:52:07 ) /: 1 2 3 04:52:08 Sgeo: 0 1 2 04:52:15 derp 04:53:14 ) (/:{]) 3 1 2 04:53:15 Sgeo: 1 2 3 04:53:32 That isn't more line-noisey than Perl at all 04:53:33 ! 04:53:57 Also, /:{] is totally the best emoticon ever 04:54:51 inf aiinopqtu 04:59:06 oerjan: what would you call a 1 with a line over it for the purposes of unicode 05:00:49 -!- conehead has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 05:00:58 or maybe i have to use a combining overline 05:08:17 Hmm, I'm not sure if Picolisp counts as eval-quote 05:08:41 The distinction between reinterpretable data and actual functions goes away 05:09:08 Oh, I should check what if looks like 05:09:49 -!- deadnigstorage has joined. 05:10:10 mars in libra is now opposing my natal moon-mars aries conjunction 05:10:23 oerjan: you awake? 05:11:01 `welcome deadnigstorage 05:11:04 deadnigstorage: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: . (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) 05:11:16 hey thank you Bike 05:11:48 ZZZZZ 05:12:00 quintopia: why would i know about obscure unicode 05:13:35 oerjan: don't they call you "aejnor the great, master of cdeinou" 05:14:08 yes, but they are mistaken about the latter half. 05:17:05 -!- deadnigstorage has changed nick to musetteanddrums. 05:19:12 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o elliott. 05:19:23 -!- elliott has kicked musetteanddrums musetteanddrums. 05:19:24 -!- elliott has set channel mode: -o elliott. 05:19:49 -!- musetteanddrums has joined. 05:19:53 what did e do (apart from being in the wrong place) 05:20:01 uh oh 05:20:04 YOU (musetteanddrums) have been booted from #esoteric by elliott (musetteanddrums) ¿??? 05:20:26 oerjan: racist nick combined with nonsense intiial message 05:20:36 hahaha 05:20:43 laughable 05:20:50 yes, you are 05:22:14 elliott: i don't think mistaking the channel for the other kind of esoteric is a bannable offense 05:22:29 oerjan: thankfully I didn't ban them :) 05:22:40 I'm pretty sure "deadnigstorage" goes against freenode guidelines for names if it has any though. 05:22:57 * oerjan checks 05:23:22 clearly, nobody here have seen tarantino movies 05:23:30 hey I like Pulp Fiction too but there are probably a lot of better choices for a nick based on that film 05:23:41 musetteanddrums: "mars in libra is now opposing my natal moon-mars aries conjunction" isn't useful here, even though it might be true, it has no use. 05:23:53 right 05:24:11 I admit I've been a flammer 05:24:27 but jesus, this looked so empty 05:24:39 What exactly looked so empty, this channel? 05:24:59 were there anybody talking before I joined? 05:25:08 Yes; there is logs, mentioned in the topic message. 05:27:00 Sometimes it's pretty quiet, other times it's pretty active. 05:27:06 Such is the flow of IRC. 05:27:43 "what's with the racist nick" "uh hello i was just making conversation" 05:27:47 I don't really care myself about if you want to talk about Mars Aries conjunction and whatever but note that it isn't really the topic here. (However, it is also the case that we are not always being on-topic.) (The topic here is about computer programming) 05:29:09 -!- kmc has set topic: The Mars Aries conjunction and whatever | 22nd IOCCC results: http://ioccc.org/years.html#2013 | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/. 05:29:19 hey guys, it's over. Why don't we just start talking about useful stuff relating Esoteric programming? 05:29:27 musetteanddrums: ok you first 05:29:37 musetteanddrums: Did you see the esolang wiki? 05:29:47 no, you'll make the honors, thanks 05:29:58 just ban them please 05:29:59 yes, just did it 05:30:09 why should musetteanddrums start? 05:30:19 you are the ones being assholes 05:30:27 sheesh 05:30:51 oklopol: Eir nick initially contained a racial slur. 05:31:10 it's cool they were just joking chill out 05:31:20 i know, but he changed it, and it was a pulp fiction reference i hear, maybe he thought that's fine. 05:31:32 and now it's gone 05:31:36 http://sprunge.us/WKTL Anywho, anyone wanna figure out what this'd be like in C++? 05:31:43 (idiomatic, obv) 05:31:58 I'm not really hung up on the nick anymore, I just think it's weird to say "let's talk about topic X" without having anything to say about topic X 05:32:10 i do it sometimes though 05:32:24 whatever 05:32:25 kmc: I think you are correct 05:32:37 ok 05:32:41 pikhq: what is this code 05:32:47 kmc: nohup(1) 05:32:57 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 05:34:02 "LC_MESSAgES" is that intentional 05:34:11 No. 05:34:12 pikhq: which parts do you think would change for C++ 05:34:19 like, do you imagine doing the file stuff with iostreams? 05:34:34 kmc: To compile as C++? Very little. For idiomatic C++? I've no idea. 05:34:37 cause it's not using C stdio either 05:34:40 How common is a Moon-Mars conjunction near 19 degrees of ecliptic longitude anyways? Now I am curious to know how rare it is, to know how easily to guess a birth date or date of other event based on such a thing if it occurs simultaneously with the other event. 05:34:47 :D 05:34:52 I... guess you could *do* iostreams? Though that'd be about as crazy-useless as C stdio. 05:34:53 pikhq: I am not very good at C++ really 05:35:04 But don't many C functions still working in C++? 05:35:14 write RAII wrappers for everything with error handling 05:35:22 zzo38: Yes, C and C++ have a very large common subset. 05:35:34 pikhq: I guess you would use std::string instead of strcpy and strcat 05:35:50 Hmm. Yeah. 05:35:59 Most of that's going to be pretty identical though. 05:36:01 pikhq: Yes, I know, but it isn't quite compatible (unlike Objective-C, which is a real superset of C). 05:36:02 I love how essentially every UNIX program contains a function equivalent to that my_write(). great API ya got there 05:36:13 `quote subset.*superset 05:36:15 No output. 05:36:20 `quote superset.*subset 05:36:22 1157) C++ is a superset of a subset of C 05:36:36 Yes, that is the way to describe C++. 05:36:39 Yes, it's a really dang stupid misdesign. 05:36:49 (the write system call, that is) 05:36:56 what's my_write do 05:37:05 writes until it cannot write no more 05:37:17 * Bike banjo riff 05:37:25 Bike: It's like write, except it actually is guaranteed to write the whole buffer or error out. 05:37:33 pikhq: I think it's fair to say that's userspace's problem, but there should be a totally standard userspace library for it, then 05:37:37 Rather than write 0 or more bytes of the buffer. 05:37:44 kmc: That's stdio. :) 05:37:49 yeah, except not 05:38:14 Yeah, stdio has way more in it than that, and fwrite might be permitted to do partial writes.... 05:38:37 "0 or more bytes" hey at least it can't write -1 bytes! 05:38:59 At least fwrite doesn't indicate "I wrote 0 bytes" by returning -1 and having errno = EINTR. 05:39:04 there should be a name for all four of "zero or more" "one or more" "zero or one" "exactly one" 05:39:17 * + ? 05:39:17 usually people name three of them and leave the last one unnamed 05:39:29 right, or "linear" "affine" "relevant" 05:39:41 so many names for these things 05:39:59 * + ? {1} 05:40:00 :) 05:40:13 "*" "+" "?" "" 05:40:18 the empty string is a name, right? 05:40:29 i bet it's hard to give your child the empty string as a name 05:53:17 "The ogre appealed the match loss and got it downgraded to a warning." 05:54:19 bye guys, best wishes for this project! 05:54:26 -!- musetteanddrums has left. 05:57:53 "If a file is created, the file's permission bits shall be set to S_IRUSR | S_IWUSR." Sigh. That's not "as modified by umask". 06:02:32 "The Unhinged land cards should be reprinted in other sets. My roommate is so impressed with my one Unhinged Plains that he almost offered to trade me a rare for it, before I stopped him." 06:36:07 "I really want to naturalize one of these while my opponent has the infinite mana so they take infinity damage. 06:36:07 With M2010, this won't be possible.:(" 06:51:19 -!- nooodl has joined. 06:53:25 -!- nooodl has quit (Client Quit). 07:01:01 -!- FreeFull has quit. 07:14:17 "Yes. The example merely stopped at four for space reasons. (We didn't have space to include examples for all natural numbers.)" 07:23:54 -!- Tritonio has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 07:28:29 Book your next convention at the Hilbert Hotel. 07:28:57 "As of January 20, 2014, the World Community Grid (through ComputingForGood) gives away 1.5 million XRP per day to individuals who donate spare processor time to analyze aspects of the human genome, HIV, dengue fever, muscular dystrophy, cancer, influenza, rice crop yields and clean energy." 07:38:03 -!- tertu has joined. 07:46:04 I think I have a solution 07:46:34 ($define! list-quote (lambda (x) (cons (unwrap list) x))) 07:46:58 ($define! list-quote ($lambda (x) (cons (unwrap list) x))) 07:55:16 -!- MindlessDrone has joined. 07:55:49 What's a name for a one directional inverse? 07:56:00 Depends on the direction. 07:57:28 An operation f and inverse g such that f(g(x)) = x but g(f(x)) not necessarily = x 07:58:10 g is a right inverse of f, and f is a left inverse of g 07:58:39 Thank you 07:58:48 g is a section of f, and f is a retraction of g 07:58:56 ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_(category_theory) ) 07:58:57 list-quote is a right inverse of eval 07:59:09 ( a bit too slow maybe ) 07:59:10 (Well, not sure how exact that statement can be) 08:00:05 If a functor has a right inverse, is it also a right adjoint? 08:00:32 Sgeo: in category theory, you say "i'm sure it's exact in some sense" and trust no one trusts their instincts enough to claim there's no such interpretation 08:00:38 i learned this from oerjan 08:07:25 Oh, of course it is. 08:07:59 The "Attribute Zone" Famicom game now you can see how much is made up already (which isn't enough to play the game, but the editor works): http://forums.nesdev.com/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=10913 08:08:20 Please try to make a comment/question/complain about it, if you are capable to do so. 08:08:48 Of course, inverses of functors aren't a very nice concept. 08:12:18 zzo38: when you have a working version can you make a video of you playing it 08:13:34 quintopia: No, I won't post any videos. Possibly a screenshot, though. 08:13:53 zzo38: you don't have a screen recorder? 08:15:48 I don't have any, but even if I do I don't want to post any videos. 08:16:11 why not? videos are cool. i like videos. 08:16:22 they show off gameplay much better than screenshots. 08:19:49 Then you can make a video if you want to, but I don't want to post any videos. Maybe it might work better anyways if different people who aren't knowing what to expect would make the report, then it is less biased. 08:20:49 -!- Tritonio has joined. 08:20:52 I am having the problem with program to record the level on a audio tape; the emulator just makes a file full of 0x70 instead of the proper data. 08:29:23 When you say it's based on it, do you mean gameplay is a reference to it, or does its implementation utilize that fact somehow, or both? 08:29:34 [the limitation thingy you mentioned] 08:33:10 The implementation uses such a fact in order to design the way objects work in the game. 08:38:44 do you have anything explaining the rules of the game 08:38:49 i mean 08:39:03 that i don't have to download and unpack a zip to read 08:39:05 Other than a prototype made in QBASIC, no. 08:39:27 oh 08:39:39 are the puzzles good and hard 08:40:25 But I can describe it a little bit: You can move your piece to push boxes and collect gems and so on, however with limitations, one being that it won't move if there is already something else of a different color in the same 2x2 area, and that no more than eight sprites are allowed per row. 08:40:41 is it like Potion of Confusing 08:40:51 Other than the two levels made in the QBASIC version, there are no other puzzles, and I don't know if it is easy or hard enough. 08:41:35 shachaf: Not really, although it shares that the pieces move on the grid, one of which you control directly. 08:42:09 maybe you should call it Potion of Makes Perfect Sense 08:45:24 how could it be called that if it's called Attribute Zone 08:45:48 maybe the name could be called Potion of Makes Perfect Sense 08:55:56 -!- musetteanddrums has joined. 08:56:49 -!- musetteanddrums has left. 09:32:18 -!- Tritonio has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 09:40:34 -!- Tritonio has joined. 10:06:25 ed http://textfiles.com/100/balls.txt 10:25:39 -!- nooga has joined. 10:42:14 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 10:43:23 is there some connection between turing completeness and boolean logic? i.e. if i am able to calculate the result of arbitrary boolean expression, will i be turing complete? 10:46:52 no, you will be P complete 11:15:17 -!- nooga has joined. 11:59:09 -!- Tritonio has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:00:03 -!- Tritonio has joined. 12:00:21 -!- Tritonio has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:04:19 -!- Tritonio has joined. 12:08:37 -!- Slereah__ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 12:08:57 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 12:30:33 -!- yorick has joined. 13:04:12 -!- boily has joined. 13:04:24 -!- metasepia has joined. 14:03:53 -!- nisstyre has quit (Quit: Leaving). 14:04:25 -!- Tritonio has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:07:13 -!- Tritonio has joined. 14:14:13 -!- glazgor has joined. 14:16:44 -!- glazgor has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:18:31 -!- Sorella has joined. 14:29:39 -!- Tritonio has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:32:24 -!- Tritonio has joined. 15:14:26 -!- hogeyui has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 15:22:34 -!- feldman has joined. 15:22:50 -!- feldman has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:25:44 -!- mascott has joined. 15:28:08 -!- hogeyui has joined. 15:44:54 -!- nooodl has joined. 15:46:58 t 15:47:01 oops 15:47:59 good t\noops morning! 15:49:29 * FireFly hands myname a CNF formula to satisfy 15:51:33 -!- mascott has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 16:03:38 -!- Tritonio has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 16:22:57 -!- mkoshka has joined. 16:27:58 -!- FreeFull has joined. 16:28:31 -!- mkoshka has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:29:37 -!- tenzile has joined. 16:35:10 -!- tenzile has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:55:44 -!- godovikov has joined. 17:04:57 -!- conehead has joined. 17:10:43 -!- godovikov has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 17:18:30 is there an "ideas" category that we can relegate Mahagugu's not-fully-fleshed-out language ideas to? 17:31:03 -!- Tritonio has joined. 17:32:10 “Category:Not Enough Food for a Zombie” 17:35:04 meanwhile, new item for my next Paranoia campaign: Bone Exploding Dyadic Functile Hyper-Arrows. 17:35:25 also, quinthellopia! 17:35:28 ~metar CYUL 17:35:28 CYUL 201700Z 32004KT 15SM SCT055 OVC090 M13/M22 A2966 RMK SC3AC5 SLP047 17:36:54 ~metar EFHK 17:36:54 EFHK 201720Z 05006KT 9000 -SN BKN026 M13/M15 Q1033 TEMPO 6000 17:37:01 M13-buddies. 17:39:17 * boily hi-fives fizzie. or minus-thirteens him, in that case... 17:40:18 boily: oh oh can i play paranoia 17:44:19 * boily hands quintopia a bird stump. in a GM voice: “It is quite heavy, and ugly. It has... well... depictions of things engraved on its surface. Your mission is to transport it safely and activate it.” 17:45:16 YES SIR FRIEND COMPUTER SIR YOU CAN COUNT ON ME 17:46:27 you don't have the clearance to use capital letters. please excuse yourself in the [REDACTED] alphabet before you are to gladfully terminate yourself a the nearest Center. 17:47:27 excuse me computer. i would gladfully terminate myself if you asked me to. you know that don't you. of all of everyone i love and trust you the most. 18:01:25 -!- Tritonio has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 18:01:38 -!- Tritonio has joined. 18:17:20 hey, is breaking the second wall allowed? http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20140120 18:18:12 -!- atrapado has joined. 18:22:17 back from lunch, and I terminated a delicious soup. 18:23:06 metasepia: cold! 18:23:12 ~meta LOWI 18:23:12 --- Possible commands: dice, duck, echo, eval, fortune, metar, ping, yi 18:23:16 ~metar LOWI 18:23:16 LOWI 201750Z 06007KT 9999 -RA FEW025 SCT040 BKN055 05/02 Q1003 NOSIG 18:24:46 * quintopia basks 18:24:50 ~metar KATL 18:24:50 KATL 201752Z 28008KT 10SM FEW250 16/M04 A2998 RMK AO2 SLP153 T01611044 10161 20006 58021 $ 18:25:55 +16? you... you little... AAAAAURGH! 18:26:03 (also, your station need maintenance.) 18:28:25 -!- Tritonio has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 18:31:23 -!- Tritonio has joined. 18:33:00 hmm i think i'll go out and enjoy this beautiful day 18:34:07 * boily swears in French 18:35:37 accentuated? 18:35:49 you have nố idea. 18:36:02 You keep reminding me that I have no working compose key. 18:36:18 I don't have any either. 18:37:50 AltGr? 18:39:14 hmm. interesting, that would work. 18:39:45 kmc: the Power of AltGr all the way, with some Mod5 and Shift inbetween. 18:40:36 I can get ^, ¨, `, ̣, ̉ and ° over a single key! 18:40:38 I'd need a reference card (Sure ... I could make my own.) 18:40:53 (weird... part of my PRIVMSG disappeared...) 18:40:57 ̉test 18:41:36 `~àþ€ 18:41:37 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ~àþ€: not found 18:41:38 int-e: I forgot how to print one. there's this X utility that can get you a postscript of your keyboard layout, but I can't remember for the fungot of me how it's done. 18:41:39 boily: how annoying :( :( :( :( 18:41:53 fungot: I know. and for once, I welcome your sentience. 18:41:54 boily: alert. english dying. not that c++ is nice, btw. i probably would have shut me up for an hour. i'll have to 18:42:33 "I'll have to" has become fungot's favourite closing statement. 18:42:33 int-e: scheme is also useful in eval. ( it took a bit of overhead on the scheme flavor, i guess. 18:43:43 “I guess.” 18:43:52 it's still hit and miss. 18:44:00 * boily mapoles fungot 18:44:00 boily: clearly forcer's whole town is dangerously liberal. sure, they say that? 18:44:11 int-e: I concur. 18:45:43 fungot: fungot 18:45:43 kmc: esobot wasn't responding in channel foo" 18:46:45 boily: what's Mod5 18:46:58 the 5th X11 modifier 18:47:29 mm, but what do you use it for 18:47:30 likely one of the windows keys 18:48:38 the windows keys are Mod4. on my keyboard it's the right control key. 18:51:06 Oh does anybody here know how to make xmodmap settings apply to freshly plugged in keyboards? 18:52:55 I don't; I just re-run xmodmap 18:52:59 int-e: setxkbmap if you have to, then «xmodmap .Xmodmap». 18:53:30 (also, «xset b off» is a lifesaver if you have headphones.) 18:56:25 boily: I'm doing that. But my laptop keeps forgetting this setting when I move it around (there's a docking station involved, and possibly a suspend/wakeup cycle). I just have no clue why. 18:57:59 (well that was a lie: I'm doing xset -b to disable the bell.) 18:59:22 ~metar ESSA 18:59:22 ESSA 201850Z 10008KT 9999 BKN024 M03/M07 Q1028 R01L/710168 R08/710158 R01R/710175 NOSIG 19:00:03 ~metar ESKN 19:00:03 ESKN 201850Z 10012KT 9999 FEW025 M03/M07 Q1025 R08/450195 19:09:27 -!- Tritonio has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 19:13:44 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 19:14:02 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 19:14:29 -!- MindlessDrone has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 19:26:29 -!- Tritonio has joined. 19:29:16 -!- MindlessDrone has joined. 19:47:51 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 19:48:45 -!- carado has joined. 19:54:48 -!- Sprocklem has joined. 19:54:57 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 19:59:29 -!- wholid has joined. 20:00:07 -!- preflex has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 20:00:27 -!- preflex_ has joined. 20:00:52 -!- preflex_ has changed nick to preflex. 20:01:52 -!- MindlessDrone has quit (Quit: MindlessDrone). 20:10:20 preflex: poke. 20:11:56 ~duck tensor 20:11:56 tensor definition: a muscle that stretches a part. 20:12:01 ~duck tensor product 20:12:01 In mathematics, the tensor product, denoted by , may be applied in different contexts to vectors, matrices, tensors, vector spaces, algebras, topological vector spaces, and modules, among many other structures or objects. 20:14:02 -!- wholid has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 20:16:42 `unidecode — 20:16:44 ​[U+2014 EM DASH] 20:16:54 sign of the year 20:54:06 speaking of the Yearly Things, I'm eager to try out 0.14. there's a new god in an experimental branch! 20:54:28 0.14 what? 20:55:35 DCSS! 21:06:48 -!- Slereah has joined. 21:07:51 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 21:12:17 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 21:12:31 -!- atrapado has quit (Quit: Leaving). 21:14:46 boily: oh no, which awful god idea did someone actually code? 21:16:45 is it doorokhloe 21:23:31 dcss? 21:23:47 there's been decss news lately so my mind's scrambled i guess 21:29:01 Has there? 21:32:38 -!- ais523 has joined. 21:37:51 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 21:41:07 So, the klisp person suggested I'm missing the point, and as far as I could tell by skimming, is saying that quotation isn't necessarily evil when necessary 21:41:24 But I didn't read it thoroughly yet 21:42:19 -!- namaskar has joined. 21:44:33 elliott: Dithmengos, god of shadows. kind of like an anti-TSO crossed with ninja stuff. sounds fun! 21:45:42 at least it's not goldgod or randgod 21:47:13 meanwhile, I need to raffine my strategies when exploring pan. I had a nice game going on over the weekend, and once again I very stupidly screwed it up. 21:48:48 do more zigs. dont do tomb. skip tomb 21:52:03 pikhq: yeah, the court case documents are being mass scanned 21:52:35 nooodl: I kinda stupidly die in zigs too. and I like Tomb. Tomb is plenty of intense and fun challenges! 21:57:24 -!- boily has quit (Quit: HOT CHICKEN OF ANTI-WINTER!). 21:57:32 -!- metasepia has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:27:13 Crawl? 22:27:29 Yes. Crawl. 22:42:05 -!- oerjan has joined. 22:51:58 there should be a name for all four of "zero or more" "one or more" "zero or one" "exactly one" <-- you are missing "exactly zero", "more than one" and "zero, or more than one" hth 22:53:02 (that's 7, the 8th one would be "neither zero nor more", but i assume that's a contradiction in the context) 22:53:05 oerjan: let's call them "phantom", "superlinear", and "nonlinear" 22:53:21 hm, probably "nonlinear" isn't good 22:53:31 oerjan: I think the 8th one is "neither zero, nor one, nor more than one" 22:54:02 ais523: shachaf didn't express "zero or more" that verbosely, so i don't see why the negation should be. 22:54:19 oh, "less than zero", then 22:54:43 p. sure we're only talking about natural numbers 22:54:48 -!- Tritonio has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 22:55:05 if we include negative as a possibility, we immediately get 8 more options. 22:55:57 anyway i don't care about any of these v. much 22:56:03 shocking 22:56:13 i think the four i specified should have names 22:56:40 well, for integers, "one or more" is "positive", isn't it? 22:57:35 For naturals, too. 22:57:36 many, many1, optional and id 22:57:52 The sort of situation I'm talking about is + ? * 22:57:59 Or "relevant" "affine" "linear" 22:58:08 shachaf: well the last one is the empty modifier 22:58:09 Or "exists" "unique" "exists unique" 22:58:38 oerjan: OK, but you have to pick which one is the default. 22:58:41 i think "unique" usually implies "exists" when unqualified. 22:59:28 how about "inverses are unique" 23:00:07 "relevant", "affine", "linear" i would say the remaining one there is "classical" 23:00:35 the same thing also comes up with linear/affine/relevant transformations 23:00:43 hm wait 23:00:45 (not that i've ever heard of anyone talking about a relevant transformation) 23:01:27 i'm sure something's getting mixed here. 23:01:32 "The code associated with this article is provided as graphical screenshots embedded in a Word document." 23:02:13 Bike: please tell me that's a reviewer's reason for rejecting it. 23:02:26 nope! 23:02:28 darn 23:02:31 what's getting mixed up here 23:02:46 http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0085047 23:03:29 shachaf: first, "classical" should probably be "intuitionistic", secondly i have no idea how "relevant" would apply to algebra. 23:03:40 in a way that fits. 23:04:02 i thought you meant "classical" in a different sense 23:04:05 anyway... 23:04:25 as an example, f(x) = ax^1 is a linear map; g(x) = ax^1 + bx^0 is an affine map 23:04:48 so perhaps h(x) = ax^n + bx^(n-1) + ... + yx^1 would be a relevant map 23:05:02 (between one-dimensional vector spaces) 23:05:28 Bike: your text does not appear within the page you linked 23:06:15 i quote a comment. 23:06:17 quoted 23:06:33 you can look at the appendix dot doc yourself if you want 23:06:48 oh, the interpretation was that the authors of this thing wrote that in their own thing 23:07:05 Bike: oh the comments are not on the same page. 23:07:25 oerjan: anyway what would that mean more generally 23:08:23 oerjan: yeah, it's a bit weird, until you remember commments sections are terrible 23:08:27 usually 23:09:17 shachaf: i do not find your relevant definition intuitively related to the others 23:09:36 which others 23:09:57 uh, y is a coefficient here, by the way, just an oddly named one 23:11:00 the definition of linear and affine. 23:11:40 well, one has an x^1 term, and one has x^1 and x^0 terms 23:12:19 yes but higher powered terms are meaningless for general vector spaces. 23:12:50 ok this is what i'm paying you for, to make it make sense 23:14:27 i know this nice nigerian prince who can do that for you. 23:17:49 * Sgeo considers buying some Unhinged lands for the art 23:20:10 The better basic lands art for Un-set would be the one with picture of an airplane for a "Plains" card. 23:21:58 Is there one like that, or is that something you want? 23:22:22 Something I once put into the computer; there is no such thing like that for actual as far as I know though. 23:22:31 Sgeo: there isn't, basic lands are tournament legal no matter what set they come fro 23:22:32 *from 23:22:42 so they have to look like islands, etc., so that they can be recognised by the art 23:23:02 what is the point of the art anyway 23:23:05 The art doesn't matter even remotely. 23:23:11 i never look at it 23:23:14 The only thing that matters is the card name. 23:23:19 Except in un- games 23:23:50 Well, the expansion symbol can also matter outside of Un-. 23:23:55 (very, very rarely) 23:24:20 apparently the art is what tournament players most commonly use to recognise cards 23:24:26 because it's the largest part of the card 23:24:31 pikhq: not any more, they erratad it 23:24:39 to "cards first released in Homelands", etc. 23:24:49 Oh for fuck's sake! 23:25:09 ais523: ... I could never memorize cards like that 23:25:13 Except for the basic lands 23:25:16 And even then... 23:25:25 You need to make a list of what cards have been first released in Homelands, then. 23:25:29 Can easily imagine myself confusing a basic and nonbasic land 23:25:43 zzo38: or have one handy. Which seems annoying for casual play 23:26:31 Sgeo: It seems fine to me. If using such a card in a preconstructed deck or if you are drafting Homelands, then have such a list. 23:27:06 The one thing I hate most is errata that changes functionality for no good reason. 23:27:31 kmc: ISO_Level3_Shift is often mod5, I think. It certainly is that here. 23:28:04 pikhq: what about not having errata and that changes how powerful a card is? 23:28:16 I think Magic: the Gathering rules are way too klugy and have various stupid things. 23:28:20 That's what bans are for. 23:28:21 mana burn goes away, cards that interacted with mana burn receive no errata, some become more or less powerful 23:28:37 Incidentally, I hate the loss of mana burn. 23:28:49 (Also called "the AltGr key".) 23:28:59 I'm kind of sad that Interrupts no longer exist 23:29:02 I also hate the loss of mana burn, although I like the change of "remove from game zone" to "Exile". 23:29:17 Sgeo: They do, they're calling "Instant" now. 23:29:25 But a lot of the rules even ones that were much older I don't like it much either. 23:29:28 The pre-6th rules were nasty. 23:30:10 I think rule of +1/+1 and -1/-1 removing each other is klugy and stupid, and the rule about Auras that are also creatures to be discarded is really stupid, and various other things too. 23:30:21 removing each other? 23:30:46 Sgeo: As a state-based effect, a pair of +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters on a permanent cease to exist. 23:30:52 Introduced in Shadowmoor. 23:31:18 Sgeo: Yes; it doesn't apply to -1/-0 vs +1/+0 or two -1/-1 against a single +2/+2 or whatever; only to +1/+1 and -1/-1; and I think is stupid anyways. Better to just you have to keep track by yourself. 23:31:23 Seems pointless, but I bet there are actual gameplay effects 23:31:58 I think I like the flavor of having both instants and interrupts 23:32:01 The rules are really klugy anyways. 23:32:01 Faster than instantly 23:32:41 I think having instants and no interrupts is fine though 23:33:17 Note that "interrupt" existed for the sole purpose of letting you counter spells. 23:33:28 Because timing was weird. 23:33:48 kmc/copumpkin: wow, that hacker news thread you linked to is the worst thing, why did i read it 23:36:16 I believe I was introduced to Magic during Tempest... except I don't remember a Mana Source card type 23:36:31 But the Dark Ritual art from Tempest is the one that seems most familiar to me 23:36:45 (A girl gave me that card and asked me to explain it to her) 23:36:51 iiuc 23:36:56 *iirc 23:42:16 hey, is breaking the second wall allowed? http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20140120 <-- you expect _othar_ to ask for permission? 23:42:43 idl-e 23:43:45 isn't that the first wall 23:43:48 oerjan: No, of course not. He *is* a hero and a spark. 23:44:07 shachaf: I considered that, but don't we usually count clockwise or counterclockwise? 23:44:16 do we? 23:44:26 shachaf: it's either second or fourth, the walls are numbered ... what int-e said. 23:44:30 And we do know which the fourth wall is. 23:44:50 i thought they were numbered back to front 23:44:59 that's how i would number walls 23:45:09 interesting 23:45:35 i thought you meant breaking from one frame to another one 23:45:44 until i saw the picture :'( 23:45:54 idl-e, hmm. I'm preparing slides for wednesday, and I should sleep. 23:46:42 wednesday, the middle of the week 23:48:47 in int-e's native language, that's _literally_ true. 23:48:53 exactly 23:49:03 -!- conehead has quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com). 23:50:31 shachaf: how dare you cry at the great Othar Tryggvassen (Gentleman Adventurer!) 23:50:44 I came up with the concept of "breaking the fifth wall", it's where the medium via which the show is being communicated become relevant, as in not just "the characters are aware of the audience", but "the characters are aware of the properties of the screen that's being used to show them" 23:50:50 Sure, let’s run some Python code for every packet on a 10 Gbit/s link and do a string comparison, too. http://linux.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=4686941&cid=46012021 23:51:07 * oerjan sometimes is annoyed at how the foglio's decided to spell his last name 23:51:19 ais523: i think that's part of the same wall 23:51:35 anyway i think that's much more interesting in the context of a play than in the context of something on a screen 23:51:41 *-' , maybe 23:51:42 shachaf: well it's a different one because the audience are aware of themselves, but aren't necessarily aware of that 23:52:13 i would like to see a play in which the characters eventually discover that they are characters in a play 23:52:33 except it's serious rather than some sort of gag 23:52:48 I guess the fifth wall in the play would be when the characters became aware of what actors were playing them 23:52:59 right 23:53:12 well, that's what i mean, anyway 23:53:17 normally when the fourth wall is broken in a play, that doesn't matter, you can swap out the actors and it still work 23:53:19 *works 23:54:16 i'm not sure it makes sense to call it a wall 23:55:16 I'm not sure it makes sense to call the fourth wall a wall either 23:56:30 "Keep in mind that macros are not an officially supported feature of Oz." 23:56:38 So... how does this macro stuff work then 23:56:50 magic. 23:57:08 it works, it's just not officially supported 23:59:23 :/ I want officially supported macros