00:13:53 -!- yorick has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:17:19 this .gif makes a good point http://www.mu6.com/Pascal_Triangle/Extended_Pascal_400.gif 00:19:10 What kind of good point? 00:21:04 hard to say 00:21:40 Also, I notice it says "Rights under GNU" (I can't actually read it, but it looks like that) at the bottom. 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Broken pipe). 02:34:54 -!- int-e has quit (Write error: Broken pipe). 02:35:26 -!- Sgeo has joined. 02:38:41 -!- Sgeo has quit (Excess Flood). 02:40:45 -!- olsner has joined. 02:41:35 -!- glogbackup has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:42:43 -!- Sgeo has joined. 02:42:43 -!- ski has joined. 02:46:06 -!- ski has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 02:46:23 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 02:55:16 -!- Sorella has quit (Quit: It is tiem!). 03:10:12 -!- Frooxius has joined. 03:10:15 -!- Frooxius has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 03:12:07 -!- Sgeo has joined. 03:12:10 -!- Frooxius has joined. 03:15:11 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 03:15:40 -!- lambdabot has joined. 03:18:26 -!- Frooxius has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 03:21:48 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 03:23:56 zzo38: yes. lots of failures. cloaks are offline. 03:25:49 -!- lambdabot has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:26:01 -!- ski has joined. 03:26:53 -!- Sgeo has joined. 03:33:00 -!- copumpkin has joined. 03:34:12 -!- Sgeo has quit (*.net *.split). 03:34:12 -!- ski has quit (*.net *.split). 03:43:26 -!- kmc has joined. 03:45:11 > chat.freenode.net has address 127.0.0.1 03:45:42 * kmc got here by connecting directly to wolfe.freenode.net 03:45:47 -!- Zuu has joined. 03:45:48 -!- Zuu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 03:45:48 -!- Zuu has joined. 03:45:55 -!- Zuu has quit (Changing host). 03:45:55 -!- Zuu has joined. 03:46:45 yeah, apparently part of their anti-DDOS measures 03:49:11 -!- Zuu has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 03:49:12 -!- Zuu has joined. 03:57:46 -!- Sgeo has joined. 03:58:11 -!- quintopia has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 03:58:13 -!- olsner has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 03:58:13 -!- atehwa has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 03:59:35 -!- Zuu has quit (*.net *.split). 04:07:27 -!- conehead has joined. 04:08:30 So is it working a bit better now, it is possible to read each other's message by now OK? 04:08:38 -!- Zuu has joined. 04:09:42 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 564 seconds). 04:09:44 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Ping timeout: 564 seconds). 04:10:05 -!- realzies has joined. 04:10:51 -!- atehwa has joined. 04:12:35 -!- yiyus has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 04:12:42 -!- realzies has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 04:15:25 -!- int-e has joined. 04:16:51 -!- polytone has joined. 04:17:18 -!- Vorpal has quit (Excess Flood). 04:17:29 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 04:18:35 -!- Zuu has changed nick to 14WAB00L3. 04:18:35 -!- Zuu has joined. 04:21:08 -!- atehwa has quit (*.net *.split). 04:21:08 -!- 14WAB00L3 has quit (*.net *.split). 04:22:31 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 04:23:37 -!- mysanthrop has changed nick to myname. 04:26:27 zzo38: you are SO zzoic 04:26:52 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 04:28:17 -!- myname has changed nick to 21WACB7ED. 04:30:08 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 04:30:08 -!- olsner has joined. 04:30:08 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*.split). 10:22:44 -!- CADD has quit (*.net *.split). 10:22:45 -!- iamcal_ has quit (*.net *.split). 10:22:45 -!- upgrayeddd has quit (*.net *.split). 10:22:46 -!- nortti has quit (*.net *.split). 10:22:46 -!- myndzi has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 10:28:37 -!- hogeyui__ has joined. 10:29:57 -!- aloril has joined. 10:30:36 -!- elliott has quit (*.net *.split). 10:30:45 -!- quintopi1 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:35:15 -!- hogeyui_ has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 10:39:09 -!- Gracenotes_ has quit (*.net *.split). 10:45:40 -!- itsy has joined. 10:52:45 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 10:53:48 -!- Taneb has joined. 10:58:27 Apparently I can't leave the house because there's an armed siege :-( 11:03:59 -!- clog has joined. 11:04:13 -!- clog_ has joined. 11:10:49 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 11:12:17 -!- Vorpal has joined. 11:12:35 -!- Vorpal has quit (Excess Flood). 11:12:43 -!- clog has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 11:12:50 -!- myndzi has joined. 11:18:41 -!- oerjan has joined. 11:21:31 -!- clog_ has quit (Ping timeout: 293 seconds). 11:21:58 -!- glogbackup has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 11:23:22 -!- myndzi has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 11:32:56 itsy: what? 11:35:00 -!- myndzi has joined. 11:35:24 -!- glogbackup has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 11:35:40 -!- myndzi has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 11:35:52 -!- jconn has joined. 11:36:08 -!- myndzi has joined. 11:38:34 b_jonas: also, I think it might rain... 11:38:45 -!- glogbackup has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 11:40:20 -!- conehead has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 11:40:52 I don't really know the details. It's probably just a guy who won't answer the door to the police, so they send in the armed police to intimidate him. 11:41:07 I see 11:43:41 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 259 seconds). 11:48:56 -!- samebchase has joined. 11:53:39 -!- heroux has joined. 12:01:55 -!- myndzi has quit (*.net *.split). 12:01:55 -!- jconn has quit (*.net *.split). 12:04:49 -!- samebchase has quit (Write error: Broken pipe). 12:04:54 -!- heroux has quit (Write error: Broken pipe). 12:09:56 -!- Taneb has joined. 12:13:57 -!- Vorpal has joined. 12:13:58 -!- Vorpal has quit (*.net *.split). 12:13:58 -!- Taneb has quit (*.net *.split). 12:22:21 -!- Vorpal has joined. 12:22:53 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 12:26:54 -!- nortti has joined. 12:27:23 -!- heroux has joined. 12:29:03 -!- quintopia has joined. 12:29:53 -!- quintopia has quit (Changing host). 12:29:53 -!- quintopia has joined. 12:31:24 -!- nortti has quit (Quit: Reconnecting). 12:42:20 -!- variable has joined. 12:42:55 -!- variable has changed nick to Guest40316. 12:43:05 -!- Guest40316 has quit (Changing host). 12:43:05 -!- Guest40316 has joined. 12:43:11 -!- nortti has joined. 12:59:42 -!- Guest25039 has changed nick to Zuu. 13:03:10 -!- Zuu has changed nick to Guest63185. 13:06:13 -!- Guest63185 has quit (Changing host). 13:06:14 -!- Guest63185 has joined. 13:14:00 -!- conehead__ has joined. 13:14:00 -!- CADD has joined. 13:14:00 -!- iamcal_ has joined. 13:14:00 -!- upgrayeddd has joined. 13:18:14 -!- kmc has joined. 13:25:28 -!- realzies has joined. 13:26:13 -!- glogbackup has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:26:46 -!- Guest63185 has changed nick to Zuu. 13:28:23 -!- realzies has quit (Changing host). 13:28:23 -!- realzies has joined. 13:34:08 -!- metasepia has joined. 13:34:09 -!- boily has joined. 13:34:36 good February morning! 13:35:25 Good Febreze afternoon. 13:36:06 ~metar ENVA 13:36:07 ENVA 031320Z VRB04KT CAVOK 08/M03 Q1010 NOSIG RMK WIND 670FT 21014KT 13:36:09 were there any wisdom-additions during the weekend? 13:36:11 ~metar CYUL 13:36:12 CYUL 031300Z 02006KT 15SM OVC240 M12/M16 A3029 RMK CI8 SLP261 13:36:36 much warm, still dry 13:36:39 It's a warm again here. 13:36:43 ~metar EFHK 13:37:20 No met-ar for me. 13:38:29 boily: if we're to believe the repository, there were no changes for 6 days, until just a few hours ago (not wisdom related). 13:38:41 -!- metasepia has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:38:41 -!- boily has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 13:39:00 however the browser was broken, so whether it's actually up-to-date i dunno... 13:39:09 oh hm 13:39:16 i _distinctly_ recall addquoting. 13:39:30 I think I broke metasepia and boily. :/ 13:39:39 oops 13:39:50 `run allquotes | tail -1 13:40:04 (There's also no HackEgo.) 13:40:08 oops 13:40:42 And fungot's not here, either. (!) 13:40:43 Gregor`: ALL IS LOST 13:40:51 It's a bad day for bots. 13:40:54 EgoBot: WHY ARE YOU STILL HERE 13:41:40 -!- Sorella has joined. 13:42:47 -!- fungot has joined. 13:42:50 -!- boily has joined. 13:43:18 -!- boily-temp has joined. 13:43:29 * boily-temp *grmbls* 13:43:39 ah! 13:43:44 finally connected. 13:43:48 -!- boily-temp has quit (Client Quit). 13:43:59 -!- metasepia has joined. 13:44:06 apparently freenode has SSL troubles this morning. 13:44:44 It has all kinds of troubles. 13:44:57 ~metar EFHK 13:44:58 EFHK 031320Z 19007KT 0800 R04R/P1500N R15/1300N R22L/P1500N R04L/P1500D FZFG VV002 M00/M01 Q1021 NOSIG 13:45:02 That's better. 13:45:13 Though it looks different that what it usually does. 13:46:00 oh, the Mythic Negative Cow Club! 13:46:07 boily: i think Gregor`'s moving of hackego is not going well, and the repository browser is missing at least one quote i _know_ i added yesterday. 13:46:36 also hackego is not present. 13:47:12 boily: does temperature have the buddha nature? 13:47:22 http://sprunge.us/RYHN they must've changed something. 13:48:08 Added them runways, at least. 13:48:38 -!- Sorella has quit (Changing host). 13:48:38 -!- Sorella has joined. 13:48:38 I noticed his screaming absence from the channel. 13:48:40 oerjan: mü. 13:49:21 i have no mü but i must scream 13:52:30 -!- Taneb has joined. 13:57:35 I thought it was spelled mū, maybe I'm wrong though 13:58:24 boily: -mist- [As Globa As I Can Notice] Sorry folk! We're currently having the DDOS. I guess it will stop at some point. We do not have any information for you about it at this time. Have a cup of tea, or watch TV for a while until it blows over. 13:59:10 what if it NEVER STOPS 14:00:56 then the guess is wrong 14:01:13 figures 14:01:29 the Mandarin versions are either “wú” or “mó”, Cantonese “mou4” and Japanese “mu”. I felt the #Esöteric version would have none other than a nice diæ̈resis. 14:02:43 i sëe 14:03:08 I don't think you can diaeresis a single vowel 14:03:15 at least, not meaningfully 14:03:54 you are technically correct, the best kind of correct 14:04:43 callforjudgement: t. tdh. 14:04:56 -!- nortti has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 14:04:58 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 14:06:03 -!- heroux has joined. 14:06:52 -!- augur__ has changed nick to augur. 14:08:16 -!- ggherdov_ has quit (Changing host). 14:08:16 -!- ggherdov_ has joined. 14:08:36 -!- ski_ has changed nick to ski. 14:12:53 -!- nortti has joined. 14:13:21 * boily test, test, test, test, retest, test again... 14:13:22 hm. I have serious multi-minute lag. let's reconnect... 14:13:22 -!- boily has quit (Quit: Poulet!). 14:14:09 What's up with freenode today? 14:14:55 itsy: freenode is feeling ill 14:15:35 -!- boily has joined. 14:15:45 I heard on #haskell that there was/is? a DDOS attack on Freenode. 14:16:37 there still is. 14:18:01 -!- lonbrik has joined. 14:18:01 there always is. 14:18:06 -!- lonbrik has quit (Write error: Connection reset by peer). 14:18:56 stupid idea: if freenode has DoS problems, can it deploy its own botnet to DDoS the DoSsers? 14:19:11 No. 14:19:20 boily: how would that help? 14:19:34 The whole point of DDoS is that there are many attackers and few targets. 14:19:47 indeed. 14:20:03 * boily maplerases the stupid idea. 14:20:50 Earlier today chat.freenode.net completely refused my connection attempts 14:20:57 So yeah, feeling quite ill I bleieve 14:21:18 -!- nortti_ has joined. 14:21:18 Pretend I know how to sple 14:21:50 -!- nortti has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 14:22:00 fungot: any comment on the bot uprising that we have witnessed today? 14:22:01 FireFly: where do things go faster if you shake it up a little bit fnord, like fnord 14:22:03 -!- metasepia has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 14:22:03 FireFly: chat.freenode.net was redirected to localhost, i saw in the logs 14:22:12 -!- Guest40316 has quit (Excess Flood). 14:22:15 Oh, that explains it 14:22:33 oh. dns cache poisoning? nasty. 14:22:39 fungot: well, shaking up freenode is bad, mkay? 14:22:40 FireFly: oh, cool. i like fnord. 14:22:49 int-e: i thought it was a countermeasure, actually 14:22:58 hmm. 14:23:04 -!- nortti_ has changed nick to nortti. 14:23:10 -!- nortti has quit (Read error: Permission denied). 14:23:20 could be, but then it's an unpleasant one with lots of collateral damage. 14:24:14 -!- nortti has joined. 14:26:19 -!- nortti_ has joined. 14:28:39 -!- nortti_ has quit (Client Quit). 14:28:58 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 261 seconds). 14:29:41 * boily sings a bardic song to entertain Freenode and give it buffs... “I'm a lumberjack and I'm okay ♪” 14:30:20 "Bluff Bluff Bluff the Stupid DOSsers..." 14:31:04 -!- nycs has changed nick to `^_^v. 14:33:26 They called it a countermeasure. 14:34:15 "We're currently experiencing what appears to be a DOS attack against our servers. Some servers are offline, and local IPs appear in the rotation, meaning that some connections will fail." says the topic of #freenode. 14:35:09 -!- tromp has joined. 14:42:01 I don't get why someone would want to DOS freenode 14:42:13 or poison DNS caches to point them at localhost rather than somewhere more interesting 14:43:42 you're on #esoteric and you don't understand why people do pointless stuff? 14:43:58 seriously 14:44:57 callforjudgement: it's because they HATE OUR FREEDOM hth 14:45:18 b_jonas: I don't consider the (ontopic) work #esoteric does pointless 14:45:30 I consider it potentially pointful just with a really low success chance 14:45:45 and, well, it earned me enough money to live on for a year, so it was worthwhile for me at least 14:45:47 b_jonas: everything we do ain't pointless. it's all part of a Grand Scheme. (I think. maybe. perhaps. well, in my fantasies, at least, so that's a start.) 14:46:59 -!- tromp has quit (*.net *.split). 14:47:14 Speaking of pointless things, what happened with trying to find the midpoint of #esoteric? 14:47:15 More importantly, esoteric programming languages don't actively hurt anybody. 14:47:34 int-e: even brainfuck derivatives? 14:47:44 FireFly: ignorance is bliss, in that case. 14:47:46 FireFly: somewhere inside the world, I think 14:51:18 FireFly: It's not like esoteric language creators go around taking hostages and forcing people to use the languages. At least I'd like to believe that. 14:57:26 -!- Vorpal has quit (Ping timeout: 249 seconds). 14:57:38 -!- Sorella has quit (Ping timeout: 298 seconds). 15:02:36 -!- Sorella has joined. 15:05:41 -!- tromp has joined. 15:06:58 -!- Vorpal has joined. 15:09:39 -!- Sorella has quit (Changing host). 15:09:40 -!- Sorella has joined. 15:16:15 -!- Vorpal has quit (Changing host). 15:16:15 -!- Vorpal has joined. 15:20:36 -!- `^_^v has quit (Ping timeout: 247 seconds). 15:20:55 -!- nycs has joined. 15:38:15 -!- Sorella has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 15:40:34 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 15:40:40 -!- nycs has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 15:40:49 -!- tromp has joined. 15:40:53 -!- `^_^v has joined. 15:41:20 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:41:32 -!- Sorella has joined. 15:41:47 -!- augur has joined. 15:46:52 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 15:48:48 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 15:49:51 TIL: When you buy stuff for $2 or so from ebay, what you get might not always be of high quality. 15:55:26 it wasn't a live bobcat, was it? 15:56:09 imho, a live bobcat for 2$ is nice. lots of meat! 15:56:29 (hopefully the bobcat's. I have an emotional attachment to mine.) 15:57:36 -!- clog has joined. 15:59:31 * quintopia attaches electrodes int-e 15:59:49 -!- realzies has quit (*.net *.split). 15:59:50 -!- FireFly has quit (*.net *.split). 15:59:51 -!- EgoBot has quit (*.net *.split). 16:00:24 Go write a Spiral program. Every minute you wait, I turn up the voltage. 16:01:48 It was a 52-to-58 mm "step-up" ring, for attaching filters to a camera lens. 16:02:10 Except it's got a ding in it, so it's no longer circular and the threads are all wonky, so you can't actually, you know, attach it to a lens. 16:02:48 Curiously, the envelope doesn't have any scratches, so perhaps it was pre-dinged before postage. 16:03:19 (I like the word "ding".) 16:07:13 hmm can you build a spike pit under the seller's living room? 16:10:38 That doesn't sound quite feasible. 16:11:16 -!- realzies has joined. 16:11:16 -!- FireFly has joined. 16:11:16 -!- EgoBot has joined. 16:11:38 perhaps not, but it does sound like a lot of fun 16:14:21 -!- ggherdov_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 16:15:32 -!- Tritonio has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 16:17:09 https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20140203-ding.jpg <- see 16:22:08 -!- realzies has changed nick to Guest73899. 16:26:51 -!- `^_^v has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 16:27:13 -!- ggherdov_ has joined. 16:36:32 -!- clog has quit (*.net *.split). 16:36:33 -!- tromp has quit (*.net *.split). 16:52:53 -!- quintopia has quit (Write error: Connection reset by peer). 16:52:54 -!- zzo38 has joined. 16:52:55 quinthellopia. 17:00:50 -!- tromp has joined. 17:00:51 -!- augur has joined. 17:00:52 -!- Guest73899 has changed nick to realzies. 17:00:57 -!- quintopia has joined. 17:00:58 -!- `^_^v has joined. 17:01:15 -!- augur has quit (Quit: Leaving...). 17:01:23 -!- realzies has changed nick to Guest68421. 17:01:31 -!- augur has joined. 17:02:13 -!- quintopia has quit (Changing host). 17:02:13 -!- quintopia has joined. 17:03:41 -!- Guest68421 has quit (Changing host). 17:03:41 -!- Guest68421 has joined. 17:06:29 -!- jconn has joined. 17:13:28 The 6502 instruction set has NOP immediate where STA immediate might logically fit. 17:14:09 NOP immediate? 17:14:28 So essentially jump-over-the-next-byte? 17:14:53 -!- augur has quit (Quit: Leaving...). 17:15:39 I don't understand the IA-32 reference :( "02 /r ADD r8,r/m8" ← I don't understand what /r there signifies 17:15:58 FireFly: Yes, that is what NOP immediate does. 17:16:29 Seems weird to me for a NOP opcode to take an operand 17:17:11 FireFly: x86 has nops with operands. 17:17:43 FireFly: It's an easy way to make different-length nops if you have all kinds of addressing modes and such that can end up with operands of different sizes. 17:17:47 Only some of the NOP opcodes take operands; some don't. 17:18:24 They are all the same speed though. 17:18:43 Ah 17:18:52 The basic 0x90 NOP doesn't; the 0F 1F /0 takes a r/m16 or r/m32 operand, depending on operand size. 17:19:24 -!- Taneb has joined. 17:20:22 You can make a nop of any size from 1 to 9 bytes (and possibly above, but that's where the table in the manual stops) with those two, by selecting the proper operands and prefixes. 17:24:59 6502 also has NOP with different addressing modes, all of which are loads I think, and take the same time as other loads of those addressing modes but don't affect any flags or registers. It is also possible to use longer instructions that act similar to shorter ones and are just as fast too, for example ALR #$FF should be like LSR A but longer in case you need to change the instruction alignment or something like that. 17:28:18 -!- Guest68421 has changed nick to realzies. 17:31:50 zzo38: modern x86 also has lots of different nops nowadays, with different addressing modes, 17:32:16 and conflicting statements in the intel vs amd optimization guides on which nops are best to use for padding (seriously) 17:32:48 Can you tell GCC which ones to use? 17:32:50 mind you, they can be conflicting, that only means one is better to use on intel cpus and the other are better on amd cpus, but it's still funny 17:33:34 zzo38: possibly. there's an interface at least for telling what cpu to optimize for, whether it will affect these nops I can't tell 17:33:59 -!- sebbu has joined. 17:34:02 zzo38: -mtune=something 17:34:50 now I sort-of want to make an esolang entirely based around NOPs with side effects 17:34:59 these don't have side effects 17:35:26 but it's unclear what the distinction is between a NOP with a side effect, and a command 17:35:28 there are plenty of strange instructions that do have side effects as well of course 17:35:46 btw, how would you classify x86's "LEA" instruction? 17:35:57 classify in what way? 17:36:02 it's basically just "use the address calculation code to do arithmetic" 17:36:07 b_jonas: not sure 17:36:13 it feels a bit like a NOP in some ways 17:36:21 The NOPs in 6502 do load the data they are pointing to, but then ignore it. 17:36:24 given that it calculates an address, then does nothing with the memory it points to 17:36:39 but it changes a register! 17:36:45 I can imagine that LEA in x86 loaded the address it pointed to once, but it certainly doesn't do so nowadays 17:37:00 there are some prefetch instructions that you can think of as noops with side effects to optimize something later if you want such things 17:39:11 then every cpu has a few such instructions that are sort of nops in that you can insert them anywhere without breaking the program, but not necessarily _remove_ them from a program without breaking it; or the reverse, ones you can remove from any program without breaking it but you can't just add them without breaking something. 17:39:19 those are funny 17:40:23 well, every modern cpu at least 17:42:43 -!- jix has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:46:50 callforjudgement: reading from memory can have side effects, so I would guess not 17:47:24 hmm, I liked my mentally confused model of x86 history in which the A20 line reset the processor 17:47:36 callforjudgement: I very much doubt it ever did that; memory mapped IO is quite old. Memory areas not being present were the norm, and such memory access is abysmally slow. 17:47:54 (lea, accessing memory) 17:47:55 Which addresses on PC have side effects for reading? 17:48:03 -!- augur has joined. 17:48:59 -!- Bike has quit (Quit: leaving). 17:49:18 zzo38: I don't know of any on PC but it is possible to build an x86 system with such addresses, anyway 17:49:53 also accesses may fail due to segment limits or paging 17:50:12 kmc: exactly, and x86 even explicitly supports that because it lets you configure memory areas to like five crazy modes telling how much caching and pre-reading etc the cpu can do, 17:50:28 I expect that even reading CGA memory caused grainy screens. 17:50:29 -!- clog has joined. 17:50:35 with the normal mode being used for ram which the cpu can assume works like ram, and crazier modes used for memory-mapped io 17:55:38 -!- jix has joined. 17:56:26 Hmm. Ok, the 486 introduced on-die caches, so that's when things became really interesting. (Some 386 boards had CPU-external caches and a couple of 386 clones had on-die ones. I didn't know that.) 18:00:16 -!- Bike has joined. 18:00:28 huh? didn't all 386s have some on-die caches already? 18:01:30 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host). 18:01:31 -!- sebbu has joined. 18:02:36 No. The 386 had a 16 bytes prefetch queue for instructions though, which visibly violated memory ordering (writing to the next instruction would not affect execution). 18:03:26 so it had off-die caches? did those run on the same clock cycle as the cpu? 18:03:33 or at least did some of them run that way? 18:03:52 Probably. I never had one of those. 18:04:20 (I had a 386 once but without additional caches.) 18:04:21 as for just prefetching instructions, well sure, wasn't that like started with the 6502? 18:05:48 but what if someone jumps to a memory-mapped address, but there's an interrupt on the same cycle, then the interrupt handler rewrites the return address on the stack? 18:06:44 There were only two innovations on the 486: 1) including FPU and 2) adding a cache, both on the same die. Oh, and selling broken chips; AFAIR, early 486SX were 486DX with broken (and disabled) FPU; and some early 487 were actually fully functional 486. 18:07:05 fungot: do I exist now? 18:07:05 boily: neither " studly" nor " fnord fnord 18:07:24 fungot: good enough for me. 18:07:24 boily: old-style let ( which you're considering calling with). 18:07:41 fungot: indeed, I consider calling the Classical Let. 18:07:41 boily: that is more fnord then scheme, and math. i guess it's implementable, and that is? :p 18:08:14 fungot: the Old Let of Yore has been implemented ages ago, although with a little bit less fnord. 18:08:14 boily: argument checking or a check type? fnord 18:08:30 fungot: argument. type systems weren't as developped as they are now. 18:09:20 -!- metasepia has joined. 18:09:41 int-e: no way! the 486 introduced the cmpxchg instruction, which counts as an innovation to me. 18:10:05 b_jonas: oh! right, fair enough. 18:10:36 didn't they introduce a few more instructions too? those probably aren't really innovations like cmpxchg, just optimization stuff, but I wonder now 18:10:49 b_jonas: is that atomic? 18:10:56 callforjudgement: yes 18:11:05 (and how do you determine whether it is or not, on a single-core processor? interrupt handlers?0 18:11:09 callforjudgement: it's for atomic test and set 18:11:15 callforjudgement: yes, inteerrupt handlers 18:11:33 I know why a cmpxchg instruction would normally want to be atomic 18:11:35 (Though cmpxchg is something that doesn't work very well without caching infrastructure. the CPU has to announce that it owns a small part of memory (a cache line) exclusively, and the rest of the system has to respect that.) 18:11:43 callforjudgement: it matters even for single cpu, because an interrupte can cause a task switch to another process which could observe an inconsistent state 18:12:25 Lock cycles did the same before, but they were expensive. (xchg has always been atomic.) 18:12:28 -!- variable has joined. 18:12:30 callforjudgement: though wait 18:12:45 callforjudgement: you're right, if it's a single cpu and no extra hardware, then there isn't much point asking if it's atomoic 18:12:51 because the instruction itself can't be interrupted 18:13:10 callforjudgement: still, it's an instruction you need because the multiple instruction emulatsions you can do on a 386 CAN be interrupted, 18:13:24 which is why you need such an instruction even on a single-cpu system with no extra hardware 18:15:25 right 18:15:51 int-e: you can write a correct lock even with no atomic primitives but assign-constant, IIRC 18:16:18 ah, apparently some (not all) 486 cpus have the cpuid instruction. you could say that's sort of an innovation. 18:16:21 clearly it can't be done without at least some guarantees of the value memory will take in the middle of at least one instruction 18:16:40 hmm, isn't CPUID pointless unless all CPUs you'd want to use it on have it? 18:17:00 callforjudgement: not it's not. x86 does have a way to detect whether cpuid is supported, 18:17:18 (for x >= 3) 18:17:22 screwing with the interrupt that Linux translates as SIGILL? that's what I'd guess 18:17:29 or 2? hmm. 18:17:29 no 18:18:27 callforjudgement: as for implementing lock, 386 (and earlier x86) does have a way to implement a lock, because they do hvae enough instructions to implement an aomtic _boolean_, sort of, but not enough to implement a lockless atomic full-word integer 18:19:53 I thought assignments to individual bytes were atomic 18:19:55 callforjudgement: lockless means you can alawys update the value of the atomic number without having to schedule other threads that are holding the lock so they can release it, so eg. you can even update a lockless atomic from a signal handler, but you can't wait on a lcok from a signal handler because the same thread outside the signal handler might be holding that mutex 18:19:57 maybe not, though? 18:20:09 -!- Slereah__ has joined. 18:20:18 callforjudgement: assignments are atomic if you do them right, but that's not enough 18:20:28 callforjudgement: with just atomic assignment you can't implement a lock 18:20:34 because you don't know what value you have overwritten 18:20:45 you need somethign that can atomically read AND write the same bit 18:20:48 There used to be tons of assembly snippets for detecting CPU versions. CPUID totally spoiled that kind of fun. 18:20:50 b_jonas: you can, but you need all the processes involved cooperating, and with unique IDs 18:20:52 which x86 does have 18:20:57 you need one variable for each of them and one shared one, IIRC 18:21:01 the algorithm's pretty complex 18:21:18 callforjudgement: I see 18:21:19 basically it involves doing things in an order which always allows you to detect if the value got overwritten and try again 18:21:46 int-e: don't worry, stuff is still complex with cpuid because of old cpus and historical cruft and because of intel/amd doing stuff differently 18:22:10 hmm… if you assume that halfway through a write, no memory locations other than the one you were writing to have a changed value 18:22:13 int-e: so often you have to do like five tests to find out if a feature is supported if you want to go by the book and make sure it works on all cpus, past and future 18:22:21 it's probably possible to implement a lock with no atomic instructions at all 18:22:33 -!- samebchase has joined. 18:22:45 b_jonas: or do what icc does and just grep for "GenuineIntel" in the ID string 18:22:54 and get bad performance on AMD as a bonus 18:23:19 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 18:23:51 actually I'm surprised nobody's written a program that automatically patches icc-generated binaries to fix the CPU ID chek 18:23:53 *check 18:24:31 int-e: as in, first test for a cpu that is at least 186 with the push sp instruction (or something like that), then if it's at least 286 with dunno what instruction, then if it's at least 386 with the pushf/popf instruction, and then test if it has cpuid with the pushf/popf instruction but a different bit (I could be mixing this up), then check four different cpuid values, each of which is valid only if the previous one has some bit set correctly, 18:24:44 and only if all that succeeds can you be sure you can use a feature. 18:25:08 086 didn't have a "push sp" instruction? 18:25:32 callforjudgement: it does, but one of them pushes hte value of sp before and one pushes the value after the push 18:25:36 sp is the stack pointer 18:25:37 callforjudgement: does push sp push the new or the old SP? that's the difference you'll check 18:25:41 ah right 18:25:50 this is surprisingly similar to detecting the INTERCAL variant you're running on 18:25:53 and it might not be 86 vs 186, it could be something else 18:26:01 I'm not sure which one is which 18:26:04 and there might be some shortcuts too 18:26:09 I guess the real question is whether you can subsequently correctly restore the stack pointer with pop sp 18:26:18 callforjudgement: there's no pop sp 18:26:30 pity :-( 18:27:03 * boily pop pop pop pop pop ♪ 18:27:56 http://f.osdev.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=27307 18:28:05 ah, apparently 486 also introduces a bswap instruction whcih lets you swap endianness of 32 bit integers with a single instruction 18:28:42 the x86 series was always full of crazily specific instructions that hardly anyone uses 18:28:57 what? that's _not_ a crazily specific instrunction 18:29:00 people do use that 18:29:07 oh, yeah 18:29:18 there are crazily specific instructions for historical compatibility 18:29:24 some of them are thrown out in x86_64 of course 18:29:26 well, it's a useful operation 18:29:32 but you can do it with a few shifts 18:29:34 salc is fun 18:29:41 and ORs 18:29:44 or lahf / sahf 18:30:07 salc is fun because it's almost the same as sbb al,al 18:30:19 (but doesn't affect flags) 18:30:34 (oh and it's 1 byte shorter, 1 instead of 2) 18:30:37 "set AL cler"? 18:30:38 *clear 18:30:45 set al to carry 18:30:48 ah right 18:31:12 those instructions are useful for avoiding jumps 18:31:20 when you just want to do arithmetic on the carry 18:31:24 no look, lahf/sahf are z80 compatibility instructions, 18:31:31 also, wouldn't sbb al,al set it to 0/-1? 18:31:34 salc is way crazier 18:31:34 b_jonas: still crazy 18:31:45 callforjudgement: so does salc 18:31:52 and the decimal instructions and the parity flag are also way crazier 18:31:58 int-e: oh right 18:32:06 6502 doesn't have non-carry versions of add/sub 18:32:13 you have to set or clear the carry manually if you want to do that 18:32:24 but the 6502 is pretty close to RISC, really 18:32:30 the undocumented aam 13 / aad 13 is also fun (especially since some clones only implemented the documented base 10 versions) 18:32:40 int-e: what? what's aam 13? 18:32:59 same as aam 10, but in base 13. (the base can be any unsigned byte) 18:33:33 so ... ah' = al / 13, al' = al % 13. 18:34:07 the crazy part of salc is that it's undocumented, and that 386 already has a documente two-byte equivalent (setc al) iirc 18:34:18 so it's basically a divmod by constant? 18:34:29 callforjudgement: yes. 18:34:50 where by undocumented I mean that neither intel nor amd documentes it 18:34:51 b_jonas: didn't they document it eventually? I forgot. 18:34:58 that instruction actually does seem genuinely useful, but it should probably work on larger registers than bytes 18:35:07 I learned it from the TASM instruction set reference ;) 18:35:15 int-e: no 18:36:10 setc al will be 3 bytes. 18:36:53 the craziest instruction imo is arpl. the crazy part is that it takes up one of the precious 256 primary opcode bytes because it was added in 286 and at that point only privilaged instructions were prefixed 18:37:09 *and* it will set al to 0 or 1. It's not the same at all ;) 18:37:09 386 was the first cpu to add general purpose instructions with a prefix byte so they don't take up instruction space 18:37:14 what does arpl do? 18:37:21 int-e: ah right, 3 bytes 18:37:30 callforjudgement: adjust request privilege level ... uhm ... I forgot :) 18:37:36 right 18:37:45 callforjudgement: dunno, it does some crazy very simple arithmetic thingy on a number that you rarely need 18:37:48 when were rings besides 0 added to x86? 18:38:04 something like "take current pl and some passed in a register; set pl to the maximum of those."? 18:38:12 callforjudgement: 80286 18:38:19 perhaps 186, I never dealt with that. 18:38:29 callforjudgement: in 286 18:38:31 I hadn't even heard of the 186 before today 18:38:38 although it's logical that it exists, given the numbering scheme 18:38:39 callforjudgement: 186 only adds a few instructions 18:38:44 when did they stop using x86 numbering? 18:38:50 I know there's at least an 80686 18:38:52 pentium 18:39:11 people call it 586, but I think that's not official. 18:39:35 int-e: is the 686 also non-official? 18:39:42 I liked it when the components just had numbes 18:39:44 *numbers 18:39:50 but I guess there'd be number clashes eventually 18:40:08 callforjudgement: yeah, components having short numbers worked well when creating a new chip was really expensive 18:41:10 b_jonas: Oh. Some clones carried on the tradition. That may explain the 686. 18:41:16 nowadays it's only like a million dollars 18:41:24 plus like 10 cents per chip, if it's not too complex 18:41:47 callforjudgement: what? no way 18:41:56 callforjudgement: I mean, for a cpu it can be that expensive, 18:42:00 low enough that it's easily affordabe if you need to 18:42:03 but for some ordinary small chip it's way cheaper 18:42:10 I guess it's probably come down further 18:42:20 cpus are complicated of course, more complicated than they were in the hayday 18:42:22 especially if you use old chip fabrication methods 18:42:44 actually, IIRC the main issue in constructing complex chips is that they use more silicon area 18:42:51 and they can never get the silicon 100% pure 18:43:00 and a single impurity has a decent chance of throwing off the circuit 18:43:15 so the larger the area, the greater the chance that the chip will hit at least one problematic impurity and not work at all 18:43:29 whereas with a small chip, like 90% of them will work fine, it might only be like 10% for a large one 18:43:41 and it's impossible to test, yeah 18:43:53 that's sort of also the problem with tft screens 18:44:09 dead pixels take a while to show up after manufacture, often 18:46:06 (and along different lines, also the reason that very large screens still tend to be plasma even nowadays) 18:46:36 You could make simpler CPUs though 18:46:46 A lot of modern ones tend to be too complicated 18:47:14 they have to be in order to achieve a high processing speed 18:47:29 the generalized version of moore's law stopped applying to clock speed ages ago 18:48:37 basically due to cooling issues 18:48:59 I think the current approach to try to get a bit of extra clock speed is to reduce the voltage 18:49:04 but that has its own issues 18:51:07 You could still simplify it and have a faster speed, possibly by not having implicit caching and pipelining and out of order execution and all of that stuff automatically, and requiring them to be programmed in manually instead, and you could also use multi cores 18:53:54 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:55:28 ooh, YouTube comments are working again for me 18:55:38 I just observed someone complaining that TV shows tended to be hosted by celebrities 18:55:56 I guess you could get a new person nobody had heard of every week to avoid that, but it'd be awkward 18:57:24 (or every day for a daily show) 19:05:52 -!- variable has quit (Changing host). 19:05:52 -!- variable has joined. 19:12:29 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 19:16:12 -!- Slereah__ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 19:23:14 -!- rodgort has joined. 19:37:14 Oh obscure x86 instructions. This is one of my favourite x86 snippets: cmp al, 10; sbb al, 0x69; das. It converts a value less than 16 to the corresponding hex digit (0123456789ABCDEF), all in 5 bytes. 19:39:18 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 19:40:02 -!- conehead has joined. 19:40:20 -!- shachaf has changed nick to cheese. 19:40:24 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 19:40:39 -!- cheese has changed nick to shachaf. 19:40:53 nice! 19:41:31 it's too bad that ascii/bcd instructions don't exist in long mode :/ 19:43:56 with SSE you could load 0x46454443424139383736353433323130 into a register as a lookup table and maybe use it for this 19:53:06 -!- callforjudgement has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 19:54:07 -!- callforjudgement has joined. 19:57:55 -!- callforjudgement has quit (Client Quit). 20:05:02 int-e: oh wow! so AAM is encoded as two bytes, D4 0A, where the second byte is an immediate giving the base, 20:05:32 int-e: and AMD actually documents the general form with any immediate 20:06:18 int-e: intel documents it as well 20:06:53 I guess I never really tried to understand those six decimal arithmetic byte instructions of x86 20:10:54 (meanwhile, new unique in DCSS trunk! it's a cat!) 20:11:13 boily: which cat? 20:12:29 b_jonas: Natasha. 20:12:46 who is he? does he come from some prior source? 20:12:59 like, a fantasy novel or role playing sourcebook or something? 20:13:38 no, she's just Boris' old familiar. she's a level 3 wizard, and'll be encountered pretty early in the game. 20:13:55 I see 20:18:03 and another unique in the works! Vashnia the elite naga sharpshooter! 20:18:13 (along with Asterion the bufferd minotaur.) 20:18:33 -!- MindlessDrone has quit (Quit: MindlessDrone). 20:19:54 s/rd/d/ 20:21:05 boily: naga sharpshooter? how does that work? I thoguht nagas didn't have hands. 20:21:12 is he a sharpspitter? 20:22:48 * boily shrugs. “IANACD”. 20:23:02 and once again, she's a she. 20:23:20 internet assigned numbers authority on compact disk 20:23:37 Bike: close. “I Am Not A Crawl Developer”. 20:24:04 b_jonas: well, a lot of the commits made in the past few weeks concern new monster sets and squads, à la Angband. 20:24:25 like, you're going to encounter more groups of thematic monsters with speciation and stuff. 20:24:50 (specialisation? specification? divergemilarity?) 20:37:22 shachaf: Rust now supports cross-crate macros, as well as defining "procedural macros" (AST manipulation with arbitrary Rust code) without rebuilding the compiler 20:37:39 that sounds fancy 20:40:41 ok 20:42:18 pursuing to the constant deaddition/unremoval of a possible Forest branch, https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=user:hangedman:forest_dispersal&s[]=forest 20:42:51 I want trees, fungot it! 20:43:41 trees in a dungeon? 20:44:30 don't question the trees! 20:44:48 trees are nice. they are green. they burn well :D 20:44:50 -!- yorick has joined. 20:51:43 -!- conehead has quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com). 20:51:55 -!- conehead has joined. 20:54:28 -!- mtve has joined. 20:55:16 Is brainfuck with [] as do-while Turing-complete? 20:56:39 I'm sure someone must've asked themselves that before, but I can't find anything and it's not obvious whether that's the case to me 21:01:47 Hm, probably not 21:02:27 <`^_^v> does anyone have any recommendations for resources for learning forth 21:03:18 what do you mean by "as do-while" 21:03:50 `^_^v: http://www.forth.com/starting-forth/ maybe 21:04:29 presumably "[ behaves like do { and ] behaves like } while (*p);" 21:05:07 <`^_^v> cool, thanks 21:05:15 fungot: yoohoo? 21:05:29 * boily mapoles the snobbing fungot 21:05:46 yes, what shachaf said 21:05:56 compared to the typical while (*p) { and } 21:06:10 essentially, treat [ as a no-op and ] as usual 21:06:32 I have a feeling that was discussed? 21:08:05 Well, I can't find anything, though 'brainfuck "do-while"' might not be the best search query 21:10:02 -!- itsy has left. 21:12:04 I can only find the skip-one variant. 21:14:18 i like that a large fraction of all do-while loops in C use the condition "while (0);" 21:14:25 possibly even a majority, depending on how you count 21:15:01 Well, it's very fast 21:16:03 For the regular while loop, while (1) probably is quite frequent too. At least compared to any single alternative. 21:18:35 FireFly: good question. dunno 21:18:52 FireFly: in this bf variant, what does - do if the cell has value 0 ? 21:19:35 Probably wrap around 21:20:19 -!- Slereah__ has joined. 21:20:20 so [-] would still zero a cell, at least (although, taking 256 iterations if the cell was already 0) 21:21:07 +[-] would be fine even if it didn't wrap around, for any nonnegative value. 21:21:26 FireFly: my guess is that it's still Turing-complete, but that's just a guess 21:21:42 I have the same guess, but someone should work that out. 21:22:07 maybe give this language a name, write it up on the wiki :-) 21:22:41 I'm pretty sure creating brainfuck derivatives is a grave sin 21:22:51 with a simple interpreter (it doesn't have to be fast, just correct and consistent). 21:23:10 FireFly: but you've already committed that sin. does documenting it make it worse? 21:23:21 Hm, I suppose 21:23:41 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 21:25:24 though you could say I have created one as well by asking how - behaves on underflow 21:25:35 because that means I imagined at least two possibilities of how it can behave 21:25:41 oh no 21:25:43 I feel dirty 21:26:19 It's that many-worlds quantum thing. Every decision you make creates new brainfuck derivatives. 21:29:22 ok, I think I can prove it's turing-complete 21:29:29 let me run the proof on you 21:31:00 first, if you have three cells x y z you can copy x to y destroying z the same way as in bf: you zero y and z, then increase y and z as many times as you can decrease x, then zero y, then increase x and y as many times as you decrease z, right? 21:31:07 * boily munches on popcorn while he watches the hot'n'dirty proof action 21:31:23 now suppose you have a bf program, and I'll tell how to translate this to bf-dowhile 21:32:44 suppose the original program has brackets nested in at most D depth, then simulate each cell of the original tape by (9*D+9) consecutive cells in the new machine where 9 is a constant later to be determined 21:34:31 the trick is, to simulate a bf loop, you save a copy of the value of the cell under the pointer when you enter the first iteration of that bf loop, copying it with you to every segment of the new tape you visit all throughout the loop. 21:35:48 you execute the bf loop like a do-while loop, but not in the same space as the outer code but in new cells in the same segments, 21:36:44 then in the end of the loop you check that saved value and copy the new values to a conditional place, which is either the outer simulated tape or some junk location, depending on whether the original loop ran at least once 21:36:53 there are just two problems, 21:37:12 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 21:37:18 one is how to initialize the inner copy of the tape, the second is how to copy it back 21:37:59 for this you somehow have to track the interval the head has moved during the loop, and also where the head ended up in the end of the loop 21:38:32 that should be possible with some extra cells in each segment, only I'll have to check if it's also possible in bf-dowhile 21:40:40 to save the leftmost position the head has moved to, you just reserve a cell in each segment that contains 0 everywhere the head has moved but 1 in the leftmost position, initialize this to 1 where you start, and set it to 0 before every simulated left move inside the loop and to 1 after it 21:40:44 -!- Zuu_ has joined. 21:41:24 then you can seek back there with a do-while loop 21:41:35 similarly you can save and find the rightmost position and head position -- I think 21:41:41 -!- Vorpal_ has joined. 21:42:09 -!- itsy has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 21:42:12 -!- lambdabot has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 21:42:12 -!- Vorpal has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 21:42:14 -!- salparot__ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 21:42:14 -!- shachaf has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 21:42:15 -!- Zuu has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 21:42:17 but how do you do a conditional move in bf-dowhile? 21:42:34 -!- Bike has joined. 21:42:51 that is, how to do a conditional copy of a value to a destination cell a fixed offset away depending on the value of a cell a fixed offset away 21:43:09 -!- shachaf has joined. 21:43:37 -!- olsner has joined. 21:44:05 right, I think you can do such a conditional move 21:44:16 The easier way to TCness might be to just adapt some of the things that have been done to show regular brainfuck it. 21:44:22 you need to set up some cells correctly and it's sort of a waste of space, but I think it's possible 21:44:37 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 21:44:44 and I think you can use that to initialize the copy of the tape as well, though it gets ugly 21:44:51 I think it's turing-complete 21:45:13 To be fair, you thought that from the start, and that was just lots of handwaving. 21:45:25 and if D is fixed you can even give a very simple finite automaton translator 21:45:45 fizzie: sure, but I wanted to convince myself most importantly 21:47:34 -!- lambdabot has joined. 21:48:53 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 21:50:22 this would be a very wasteful emulation 21:50:31 you'd need like a ton of cells 21:50:48 but then, with brainfuck that shouldn't be surprising 21:52:08 -!- Zuu_ has changed nick to Zuu. 21:52:15 -!- Zuu has quit (Changing host). 21:52:15 -!- Zuu has joined. 21:52:56 -!- Tritonio has joined. 21:53:22 -!- Bike has joined. 21:53:53 also, this can't translate input and output statments, 21:54:08 -!- boily has quit (Quit: HYPERDIMENSIONAL VOLCANIC CHICKEN). 21:54:15 -!- metasepia has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:54:17 but that's no surprise: in bf-dowhile you can't write a program that either writes empty output or non-empty output depending on the input 21:54:20 whereas in bf you can 21:54:30 but that's no problem, bf without io is still turing complete 21:56:42 shachaf: hm, references are implicitly convertible to raw pointers in Rust 21:56:45 that seems weird 22:08:19 you could mostly fix the output by buffering, I don't know about the input 22:09:41 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 22:10:00 -!- oerjan has joined. 22:11:43 kmc: what are rust references? 22:11:46 are they like c++ references? 22:11:47 -!- Bike has joined. 22:13:01 also known as "borrowed pointers" 22:13:12 but "reference" is now the official term 22:14:12 oh 22:14:14 C++ references have really weird semantics and aren't really a first class type 22:14:26 yes 22:14:41 Rust references are more like plain old pointers, except they're non-nullable and provide memory safety via region checking 22:15:03 so you can use a borrowed pointer as a raw pointer? 22:15:25 yes 22:17:52 doesn't that sort of defeat some purpose or other 22:18:12 well, at least the pointer still counts as borrowed within that block, i guess 22:18:36 maybe i'm confused 22:18:45 i should learn rust 22:18:54 it doesn't defeat memory safety because dereferencing a raw pointer can only happen in unsafe code 22:25:18 shachaf: probably 22:25:20 it's a cool language 22:36:49 -!- loveirc-bot1 has joined. 22:37:52 -!- loveirc-bot1 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:39:12 -!- impomatic has joined. 22:43:28 -!- thirdeyeforsale has joined. 22:47:04 -!- thirdeyeforsale has left ("Leaving"). 22:50:20 -!- Sgeo has joined. 22:52:16 -!- myndzi has joined. 23:13:02 -!- Sorella has quit (Quit: It is tiem!). 23:14:51 -!- Nathanator1416j has joined. 23:15:06 -!- oerjan_ has joined. 23:15:10 Hi! First time! 23:15:48 How do these things work? 23:17:05 `relcome Nathanator1416j 23:17:14 HackEgo... 23:17:27 hello... 23:17:46 Nathanator1416j: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: . (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) 23:18:33 Working on a new esolang, BF like, quick quines, but hard to ake complex ones 23:19:33 -!- oerjan has quit (*.net *.split). 23:19:56 Goodbye all, goin to the wiki 23:20:01 okay! ttyl 23:20:14 -!- Nathanator1416j has left. 23:22:40 -!- Tritonio has quit (Quit: Tritonio). 23:22:47 -!- Sorella has joined. 23:23:39 -!- oerjan_ has changed nick to oerjan. 23:25:24 -!- loveirc-bot1 has joined. 23:25:40 -!- loveirc-bot1 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:27:10 -!- loveirc-bot1 has joined. 23:28:47 -!- loveirc-bot1 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:30:14 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan. 23:30:37 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -b *!~loveirc-b@c-24-0-107-80.hsd1.nj.comcast.net. 23:31:23 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: +b *!~loveirc-b@c-24-0-107-80.hsd1.nj.comcast.net. 23:31:49 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan. 23:41:11 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:44:52 -!- tromp_ has joined. 23:53:36 -!- Sorella has quit (Quit: It is tiem!). 23:54:52 -!- Sorella has joined.