←2014-02-04 2014-02-05 2014-02-06→ ↑2014 ↑all
00:00:32 <oerjan> ais523: btw the relevance of this lemma if i'm thinking correctly is that any unbounded computation in your language _must_ eventually return to the same program point but with a >= bag than the previous time
00:01:14 <oerjan> which means you can sort of solve the halting problem.
00:01:30 <oerjan> for it.
00:01:55 <oerjan> although this doesn't take into account that probabilities may be zero.
00:02:15 <ais523> I don't think having a >= bag than last time means you're in the same program tate
00:02:44 <oerjan> no, you must be in the same point _and_ have a >= bag
00:03:06 <ais523> same IP too
00:03:34 <oerjan> ais523: well the thing is, if you return with a >= bag then it is theoretically _possible_ for you to loop infinitely.
00:03:55 <ais523> actually, yes, it is
00:03:59 <ais523> err, does
00:05:08 <oerjan> because you can repeat the same cycle again and get an even larger bag, etc.
00:05:38 <ais523> yes
00:06:03 <ais523> clearly, it's impossible to reliably distinguish any bag from a bag that's <= it
00:06:54 <oerjan> yeah
00:07:14 <ais523> so you'd have to resort to some sort of probabilistic algorithm
00:10:38 <oerjan> i am not entirely sure when i previously looked at this lemma but it may have been in connection with proving that fractran cannot be tc with unordered rules. although i vaguely think that has a simpler proof.
00:12:07 <oerjan> fractran with unordered rules feels slightly analogous to your language somehow.
00:12:59 <ais523> well unordered fractran can definitely be simulated by this language
00:13:24 <ais523> let X be the largest number of primes consumed by a rule
00:13:30 <ais523> start with X primes that don't appear in any rule
00:13:43 <ais523> repeatedly, take out X items, if they match the numerator of a rule replace them with the denominator
00:13:47 <ais523> if they don't, put them back and try again
00:15:00 <oerjan> right
00:16:14 <ais523> can we simulate in the other direction?
00:16:56 <oerjan> hm...
00:17:26 <oerjan> perhaps we can, we can make a prime for each program position to flag it
00:19:42 <oerjan> yes, i think you can easily do any state machine that goes to a new state based on tokens removed from bag, and adds other tokens
00:21:11 <oerjan> the probabilities may be slightly different, since you will be checking for a particular (set of) token(s) to remove with a rule
00:21:30 <oerjan> oh hm
00:22:06 <oerjan> i'm not sure that's a problem.
00:23:05 <ais523> you just have a prime for each instruction pointer position
00:23:11 <ais523> and an entirely separate set of fraction for each
00:23:13 <ais523> then it works
00:23:38 <oerjan> q.essentially.d
00:24:39 <ais523> I'm actually surpried
00:24:41 <ais523> *surprised
00:24:51 <ais523> I tend to assume everything that isn't completely obviously sub-TC is TC
00:25:33 <oerjan> well i'm not sure we've proved unordered fractran is "probabilistically" non-tc
00:26:05 <oerjan> just that you cannot force halting.
00:26:24 <oerjan> although it wouldn't be too surprising if it's non-tc altogether.
00:27:40 <oerjan> also the mutual simulations do _not_ preserve probabilities well - in unordered fractran, you choose rules uniformly, while in your language you choose bag tokens uniformly.
00:28:04 <oerjan> and i don't see a way to compensate for that.
00:29:27 <oerjan> if you had a bag with 1 of each token except for one of which you had a million, there would be a great bias.
00:29:42 <ais523> ah right
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00:44:47 <oerjan> <b_jonas> int-e: that bf-dowhile language we were talking about, ais523 calls it "DoFuck", says he also thinks it's turing-complete, and says "it's such an obvious idea it's probably been invented more than twice"
00:45:08 <oerjan> it keeps getting reinvented by people making broken bf implementations >:)
00:45:39 <ais523> oerjan: that's why I invented it in the first place :-)
00:45:43 <Bike> brain_fuck.vb
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00:52:44 <shachaf> `relcome HackEgo
00:52:45 <HackEgo> HackEgo: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
00:53:08 <Bike> huzzah
00:53:39 <oerjan> `run allquotes | tail -1
00:53:39 <HackEgo> 1165) <fizzie> 15:21 .. 15:41 <fizzie> I've got to stop using the IRC input line for short-term notes. <ais523> fizzie: I tend to just send them to the channel <ais523> that way if I need them in the future, I can find them in the log
00:53:49 <oerjan> hm it's there
00:54:20 <oerjan> but _not_ in the repository browser
00:54:45 <oerjan> what i'm wondering is how dylan got in his command
00:55:02 <oerjan> `ls
00:55:03 <HackEgo> 98076 \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ canary \ cat \ complaints \ :-D \ dog \ etc \ factor \ fb \ fb.c \ head \ hello \ hello.c \ ibin \ index.html \ interps \ lib \ paste \ pref \ prefs \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ test \ Test \ Test.hi \ Test.hs \ Test.o \ this \ UNPA \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
00:55:16 <oerjan> `cat :-D
00:55:16 <HackEgo> ​☺
00:55:35 <Bike> who's dylan
00:55:49 <oerjan> Bike: top of http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
00:56:18 <oerjan> Gregor`: the repository browser is out of synch with HackEgo, both ways
00:57:58 <oerjan> also you cannot click the link to :-D in the diff page
00:59:48 <oerjan> `file this
00:59:49 <HackEgo> this: empty
00:59:53 <oerjan> `rm this
00:59:55 <HackEgo> No output.
01:08:44 <ais523> `ls -l :-D
01:08:44 <HackEgo> ls: invalid option -- ' ' \ Try `ls --help' for more information.
01:08:48 <ais523> `` ls -l :-D
01:08:49 <HackEgo> ​-rw-r--r-- 1 5000 5000 4 Jan 30 18:39 :-D
01:08:54 <ais523> `touch :-D
01:08:55 <HackEgo> No output.
01:08:57 <ais523> `` ls -l :-D
01:08:57 <HackEgo> ​-rw-r--r-- 1 5000 5000 4 Jan 30 18:39 :-D
01:09:21 <ais523> oh, I assume time doesn't flow in HackEgo
01:16:50 <oerjan> ais523: i don't think the repository in the browser is the same as the one HackEgo is currently using, which is why i'm wondering how dylan managed to get a command into it.
01:17:04 <oerjan> (a command which HackEgo hasn't respected)
01:17:22 <oerjan> `ls
01:17:23 <HackEgo> 98076 \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ canary \ cat \ complaints \ :-D \ dog \ etc \ factor \ fb \ fb.c \ head \ hello \ hello.c \ ibin \ index.html \ interps \ lib \ paste \ pref \ prefs \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ test \ Test \ Test.hi \ Test.hs \ Test.o \ UNPA \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
01:18:57 <Bike> dylan is within us all
01:18:59 <oerjan> perhaps Gregor` accidentally brought up the old version or something.
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01:19:12 <oerjan> Bike: blowing in the wind?
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01:34:21 <kmc> There was evidence in this room of excessive consumption of almost every type of fungot known to civilized man since 1544 AD
01:34:22 <fungot> kmc: actually in my view anyway), not ( 1 2)
01:36:36 <Bike> how many types is taht (i'm not civilized)
01:38:24 <kmc> a lot
01:41:21 <shachaf> so other than lambda:, python has "with ... as ..." and "for ... in ..." which could more or less be replaced with a reasonable lambda thing
01:42:21 <kmc> i occasionally use the fact that the iteration variable of a for loop is set after the loop exits
01:42:26 <kmc> but i feel gross when i do
01:47:55 <pikhq> I really hate it when I do, because I always declare the iteration variable in the for loop.
02:04:27 <Gregor`> oerjan: The repository browser isn't just out of sync, it's referring to a whole other instance of HackEgo.
02:04:44 -!- Gregor` has changed nick to Gregor.
02:04:57 <Gregor> I don't have time to fix all the loose ends right now.
02:05:12 <Gregor> I was remiss to change HackEgo to a new server when I had a hugely busy week coming up ^^´
02:13:00 <oerjan> Gregor: ok as i expected, i was just surprised that there's still someone using the old instance
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02:14:46 <quintopia> hi Gregor
02:14:59 <quintopia> thanks for bringing back the hackster
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03:14:48 <OverThere> anyone alive out there?
03:16:25 * Sgeo needs a hit of P3P
03:16:52 <Sgeo> There is nothing good in the world that matches the regex ^P.P$
03:16:55 <Bike> `relcome OverThere
03:16:56 <HackEgo> OverThere: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
03:17:30 <OverThere> heh, wrong sort of esoteric for me then
03:17:43 <Bike> such is life
03:17:46 <OverThere> aye
03:17:51 <OverThere> oh well.
03:17:55 <OverThere> off i go
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04:17:07 <oklopol> Sgeo: nothing wrong with PCP
04:33:05 <Sgeo> Reading And Another Thing
04:33:14 <Sgeo> I keep noticing when the writing sounds nothing like DNA
04:37:07 <Sgeo> Still some funny parts
04:37:24 <Sgeo> "Ah, you see. I /stole/ it. Therefore it's not mine. You're winning my argument for me."
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05:05:52 <kmc> Sgeo: what about the Post Correspondence Problem
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05:07:38 <Sgeo> Hadn't heard of it until now
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05:50:55 <oklopol> (that was what i meant as well)
05:51:18 <oklopol> also we just talked about pcp here like i dunno some weeks ago
05:51:42 <oklopol> for like 3 messages, maybe even more
05:52:18 <oklopol> you are so busted for not reading every line of the logs ever
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06:16:18 <kmc> Sgeo: you should prove it's undecidable
06:17:03 <oklopol> time of your life
06:17:42 <kmc> "secure_compare leaks the password always. Note that it takes different time to create a result of ord() depending whether it's <=100 or > 100 due to caching of small numbers." YESSSSSSSSS PYYYYYYYYYTHONNNNNNN
06:17:50 <kmc> cross posting this to every irc channel i'm in
06:18:04 <kmc> (though I thought the cutoff was 256, not 100)
06:19:02 <pikhq> So, that's a compare function that's supposed to take equal time regardless of the actual password, but fails to? Nice.
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06:19:49 <kmc> yes
06:20:00 <kmc> it's hard to do that in a high level language
06:20:05 <kmc> it's hard to do it and really be sure of it in C, even
06:20:42 <kmc> the suggestion I saw today is that when comparing sensitive strings you should HMAC them both first https://www.isecpartners.com/blog/2011/february/double-hmac-verification.aspx
06:31:18 <Sgeo> Language with space and time constraints in the types?
06:31:34 <Sgeo> Going where Haskell dare not tread
06:31:34 <kmc> that sort of thing would be good yeah
06:31:56 <lifthrasiir> kmc: afaik it was -5 thru 100, but it may have been chnaged
06:31:57 <lifthrasiir> changed*
06:32:29 <kmc> `run python -c 'print (255+1 is 256, 256+1 is 257)'
06:32:30 <HackEgo> ​(True, False)
06:32:50 <lifthrasiir> oh, it's now -5 thru 256
06:33:00 <Bike> good range
06:33:09 <kmc> ISTR it went up to 256 even a few years back
06:33:18 <olsner> so does that mean the timing attack is fixed?
06:33:18 <lifthrasiir> hmm, it has been changed between 2.4 and 2.5
06:33:27 <lifthrasiir> so yes, it does fix the timing attack
06:33:49 <kmc> Sgeo: yeah a DSL for constant-time programming would be good
06:34:06 <kmc> forbid control flow or memory access that depends on sensitive inputs
06:34:33 <Sgeo> So tempting to think Racket when I think of DSL, especially now that I'm a Racket kick, but... somehow I think that wouldn't be appropriate here
06:34:33 <kmc> unfortunately it's very hard to be sure that things are really constant time
06:34:48 <kmc> "cperciva tells me he had a dim recollection of some MIPS CPUs which predicted the carry flag to be clear and would have to stall the pipeline in order to re-execute if not"
06:35:05 <kmc> definitely MUL and DIV are often not constant time
06:35:14 <Sgeo> Specialized CPU?
06:35:28 <Sgeo> Seems like this might be a case of CPUs optimizing when we don't necessarily want them to
06:36:06 <Bike> i want mul to optimized, thank you very much! you weirdos with your special cases
06:36:53 <lifthrasiir> SLOW IMUL ecx
06:36:59 <lifthrasiir> SLOW prefix for the win
06:38:03 <Bike> is taht a real prefix, it's not on osdev
06:38:32 <kmc> :)
06:38:46 <Sgeo> Is there an ebook of osdev stuff?
06:39:25 <Bike> i'm disappointed in you, lifthrasiir
06:40:33 <lifthrasiir> Bike: ;)
06:40:39 <Bike> what if i make a processor where all instructions take a pseudorandom number of cycles at least as great as the cost of the slowest instruction (doing some bullshit to mask power usage). imo secure
06:40:42 <lifthrasiir> </joke>
06:40:58 <olsner> maybe you could do a cpuid every other instruction to serialize stuff
06:41:07 <olsner> it clobbers most of the registers though
06:41:42 <shachaf> is there a complete list of Magic: The Gathering cards that i can grep through
06:41:46 <shachaf> even just the card names
06:42:05 <shachaf> or even just a reasonable list
06:42:44 <kmc> there are other instructions for serializing
06:42:46 <kmc> aren't there
06:43:04 <olsner> I think so, I don't remember what they are though
06:43:14 <Bike> there's http://magiccards.info/
06:43:15 <kmc> there are memory barriers, but they might not inhibit out of order execution
06:44:56 <shachaf> i don't actually care about the cards, just the card names
06:45:18 <Bike> well you ca n look up lists within each set, at least.
06:45:44 <shachaf> aren't there a zillion sets
06:45:53 <Bike> couple dozen, looks like.
06:46:26 <Sgeo> http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?action=advanced&output=textspoiler,textspoiler&name=+![jsjdfhasgkdsfahgahdf]
06:46:46 <Sgeo> As long as jsjdfhasgkdsfahgahdf never becomes a real card
06:47:08 <shachaf> thanks
06:47:18 <shachaf> i didn't see the option to search for "not"
06:49:25 <Bike> oh by the way shachaf, you ever read pirx the pilot
06:49:49 <shachaf> nope
06:50:07 <Bike> k
06:50:16 <shachaf> why
06:50:38 <shachaf> Oh, Stanisław Lem
06:50:45 <Bike> i vaguely recall you reading the cyberiad or suchlike
06:50:54 <shachaf> nope, should i read it
06:50:58 <shachaf> i read only a bit of the cyberiad :'(
06:50:59 <Bike> mos def
06:51:39 <Bike> pirx the pilot reminded me of computer programming, in that everything goes wrong incomprehensibly
06:57:13 <shachaf> hey do you know about the simplex category
06:57:25 <shachaf> you should answer my questions
06:59:06 <Bike> i don't know hsit-all about nothing
07:01:29 <shachaf> ok well do you know that each number in pascal's triangle tells you the number of paths you can take from the top to reach that number
07:01:39 <Bike> probably
07:01:55 <Bike> is ther ea generalization comeing on
07:02:05 <shachaf> i mean it's p. obvious from the usual definition but imo it's good
07:02:13 <shachaf> maybe, that part is your job hth
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07:02:44 <shachaf> :'(
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08:23:45 <oklopol> i'm not sure this is any sort of generalization, but if you take the matrix M = (1 1 \\ 1 0), say, and start taking its powers, then you will start seeing fibonacci numbers. another way to see this is that you have a graph with two nodes and adjacency matrix M, and (M^n)_(a,b) gives you the number of paths of length n from node a to node b, and in this case you're basically counting binary words where 11 is forbidden. investigating the interplay betw
08:23:46 <oklopol> een the growth of the matrix entries and the actual sets of paths (in particular, bi-infinite ones) is one of the things symbolic dynamics studies.
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08:31:32 <b_jonas> hello, hackego
08:31:53 <b_jonas> HackEgo is back. what you say to that, fungot?
08:33:20 <kmc> fungot says "netsplit"
08:33:37 <lifthrasiir> netsplit says "fungot"
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09:19:36 <fizzie> I just the word "conundrum" in a set of exercises for students, because of alliteration.
09:22:01 <b_jonas> fizzie: used that word unquoted or quoted?
09:22:42 <oklopol> ooops, fizzie accidentally the conundrum
09:27:08 <fizzie> Unquoted. Well, the sentence itself is quoted. It's in the sometimes-whimsical (except I haven't come up with anything whimsical so far) "title" (of sorts) of a question.
09:27:18 <fizzie> I called it the "Conditional contradiction conundrum".
09:29:22 <b_jonas> fizzie: I see
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10:35:29 <b_jonas> wikiplia has a built-in integer type, add and subtract and eq operations, but no built-in less-than comparison, so you have to simulate comparision by subtracting, stringifying the number (there's a built-in op for that), taking the first character of the string, and comparing it to '-'?
10:35:40 <b_jonas> s/\?/\./
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10:46:50 <oerjan> <oklopol> you are so busted for not reading every line of the logs ever <-- shocking
10:47:12 <oklopol> i vote for kicke banne
10:48:04 <oerjan> vote for new danish prime minister kicke banne
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12:11:45 <fizzie> Ut-oh. My ~/writing/ (where I keep all "serious" stuff) on the previous department's system seems to be completely empty, as opposed to containing four years' worth of work.
12:12:26 <fizzie> It's also modification-timestamped 2013-12-13, and the automatic snapshots on the NFS thing only reach three weeks back.
12:17:42 <oerjan> fizzie: yer bot is not here hth
12:26:03 <oerjan> also, *ouch*
12:26:40 <oerjan> my theory that we are in the end times keeps amassing evidence.
12:28:08 <fizzie> Well, it took about five minutes for the admins to restore the files from "a previous home directory server" they had around, and anyway they've got quite a comprehensive set of weekly tape backups; it's just time- and labor-intensive to get at the latter.
12:28:21 <fizzie> Now let's see about that bot.
12:29:20 <fizzie> I need to randomize a freenode server that works, it seems.
12:30:04 <oerjan> fancy
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12:30:19 <fizzie> fungot: End times: cancelled?
12:30:20 <fungot> fizzie: i'm a member of the esolang in him and it criticized
12:30:30 <fizzie> That sounds ominous.
12:30:36 <oerjan> postponed for a week, maybe.
12:37:46 <fizzie> oklopol: My thesis draft file is 112 pages, but I haven't actually written anything for it yet. (I just took all the publications I've been involved in -- 70 pages, apparently -- and dumped them in our template file, which adds 42 further pages of lipsum text and miscellaneous overhead.)
12:38:47 <fizzie> (Should start putting the thing together one of these days, given that my doctoral-student funding dried up when the year changed.)
12:39:08 <fizzie> (Silly people and their "must graduate in four years" pretensions.)
12:41:39 <oklopol> mine contains no liirum laarum, but half of it is still copypaste from articles
12:42:07 <oklopol> i only took like 1/3 of our publications
12:42:10 <oklopol> or less
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12:42:45 <oklopol> my coauthor is taking another 1/3 and the rest will be donated to charity
12:43:12 <callforjudgement> oklopol: is liirum laarum a Finnish version of lorem ipsum?
12:43:20 <oklopol> sort of
12:43:28 <callforjudgement> also, you can donate publications to charity?
12:43:36 <oklopol> it's a funny term for "nonsense"
12:44:05 <oklopol> i'm sure there's an english one i can't think of, but the finnish one was reasonably close to lorem ipsum so i went for it.
12:44:56 <oklopol> i'm not sure whether you can donate them, i shall contact unicef
12:45:36 <b_jonas> fizzie: you put lorem ipsum text in your dissertation? wow
12:45:42 <fizzie> b_jonas: It was in the template.
12:45:47 <fizzie> \usepackage{lipsum} and all.
12:45:48 <b_jonas> will it remain there in the final versoin?
12:45:52 <fizzie> Probably not.
12:46:16 <oklopol> (actually my coauthor is probably taking less than 1/3, since we/he will surely have 100 pages more next year when he writes it)
12:46:30 <b_jonas> I mean, I have to write a thesis too, and reusing a lorem ipsum generator would be an easy way to pad it
12:46:40 <oklopol> what sort of thesis
12:46:50 <oerjan> fizzie: you should keep a section of it to keep the reviewers on their toes hth
12:46:56 <b_jonas> just a simple splice articles together thesis probably
12:47:30 <oerjan> me and my coauthor both included our common articles in the theses...
12:48:27 <b_jonas> sure, that's normla
12:48:29 <fizzie> oklopol: I'm not sure if all the publications are going to be included, I just put them all in for now. Anyway, the convention here is that we'd both just claim some percentage of the article, and write something vague in the "Author's Contribution" section.
12:48:32 <b_jonas> these are all co-written articles
12:49:02 <oerjan> oh wait you didn't say they were disjoint 1/3rds
12:50:33 <oklopol> they are disjoint thirds
12:50:41 <oerjan> o
12:51:45 <oklopol> it took me like a month to come up with a natural way to include more than 3 of our articles in a coherent thesis
12:51:55 <oklopol> well i'm not sure i succeeded, but anyway
12:52:16 <oklopol> no two are on the same topic, basically
12:52:21 <b_jonas> oklopol: yeah, I know that feelign
12:52:58 <oklopol> except of course all of them are about CA and subshifts which is a pretty small topic :D but to me they feel like very different topic.
12:53:00 <oklopol> *topics
12:54:46 <oklopol> b_jonas: what's your topic?
12:54:55 <oklopol> like, roughly
12:55:54 <b_jonas> graph coloring
12:56:33 <oklopol> oo
12:56:55 <oklopol> then you may give details!
12:57:11 <b_jonas> basically we invent graph invariants that are crazy enough that nobody have tried to prove anything about them yet, then prove anything we can about them, and try to phrase it in a way that the statements sound interesting and nontrivial
12:58:29 <oklopol> no offense but that sounds awesome no matter how much you try to downplay it
12:58:31 <oklopol> can i see????
12:58:45 <b_jonas> one statement is about a graph invariant that is lessequal to the fractional chromatic number and 1/e times the fractional chromatic number
12:58:50 <b_jonas> here => http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/sc/publ.html
12:59:33 <b_jonas> what does CA stand for?
12:59:54 <oklopol> cellular automata
13:00:21 <b_jonas> ok. (that was ambiguous)
13:00:23 <oklopol> sure
13:00:40 <oklopol> my goal in life is to make cellular automata a respected field of mathematics
13:01:07 <fizzie> And world peace while you're at it?
13:01:17 <oklopol> no i think wolfram did that in ankos
13:01:24 <b_jonas> no way. world domination, that's more like it
13:01:41 <oklopol> world peace is on page 787
13:04:49 <b_jonas> ah right, promise world peace in the abstract, then if you get by page 787 it turns out you can get world peace in some special case in a very simplified model provided the generalized riemann hypothesis, and it's not known to be constructible in polynomial time.
13:06:51 <b_jonas> and it's world peace only within a huge constant factor only.
13:06:55 <oklopol> so what do you think of bondage and domination?
13:07:20 <oklopol> (any non-graph theoretical connotations are accidental)
13:10:13 <b_jonas> huh? what is bondage in this context? I don't really know much about any area of maths really.
13:10:51 * b_jonas does a web search
13:11:54 <int-e> "bondage number" ... "Restrained bondage number of a graph" ...
13:12:08 <oklopol> well bondage numbers and domination numbers are graph invariants, but perhaps only if you spend too much time reading arxiv
13:12:31 <int-e> The authors must have the same giddy feeling as M. Spivak about "The Joy of TeX".
13:14:05 <int-e> Liars. "This site uses cookies to improve performance."
13:14:43 <int-e> Another great book title. "Topics on Domination"
13:15:09 <int-e> on -> in.
13:15:10 <oklopol> http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs00222-003-0335-2
13:15:16 <oklopol> sex entropy
13:16:09 <oklopol> hmm maybe it's not called sex entropy there
13:16:11 <oklopol> just h_{sex}
13:16:18 <oklopol> but it's called sex entropy in his talks
13:16:48 <oklopol> (i don't know who came up with the term but anyway)
13:17:14 <b_jonas> on crazy terms mathematicians use, see this anecdote => http://mathoverflow.net/questions/53122/mathematical-urban-legends/53738#53738
13:17:52 <int-e> without looking, exploding points on a plane?
13:18:02 <b_jonas> yes
13:18:07 <b_jonas> no wait
13:18:08 <int-e> blowing up.
13:18:09 <b_jonas> blowing up
13:18:12 <b_jonas> yes, that
13:18:20 <b_jonas> exploding is what sml does
13:18:32 <b_jonas> when it converts an array to a list
13:18:40 <int-e> (The "blowing up" line was typed after I had a look.)
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13:23:12 <boily> good sticky morning!
13:23:18 <boily> `olist
13:23:19 <HackEgo> olist: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily
13:26:31 <FireFly> Good think the HackEgo was resurrected before the next `olist
13:28:11 <boily> essential services were restored just in time!
13:34:18 -!- FreeFull has joined.
13:45:01 <oerjan> wait wait you forgot the number
13:45:29 <oerjan> (943)
13:48:06 <boily> oops >_>'...
13:57:18 <callforjudgement> maybe it should complain if there's a missing argument?
13:57:30 <int-e> `complain
13:57:30 <HackEgo> Complaint filed. Thank you.
13:57:53 <callforjudgement> that's how you complain at it, not how it complains at you
13:57:56 <callforjudgement> `cat bin/complain
13:57:57 <HackEgo> echo "$@" >> complaints; echo Complaint filed. Thank you.
13:58:03 <callforjudgement> ah, hmm
13:58:09 <callforjudgement> I think you just filed a null complaint
13:58:24 <int-e> `` shuf -n1 complaints
13:58:24 <HackEgo> No output.
13:58:43 <boily> hm. http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/6c8a8b8f754f/complaints
13:58:49 <int-e> `` shuf -n1 complaints
13:58:50 <HackEgo> No output.
13:59:04 <int-e> clever.
13:59:11 <int-e> `complaints
13:59:11 <HackEgo> 0 complaints
13:59:25 <int-e> `` ls -la complaints
13:59:26 <HackEgo> lrwxrwxrwx 1 5000 5000 9 Sep 25 13:06 complaints -> /dev/null
14:00:14 <oerjan> very efficient.
14:00:37 <int-e> "It's backup day today so I'm pissed off. Being the BOFH, however, does have it's advantages. I reassign null to be the tape device - it's so much more economical on my time as I don't have to keep getting up to change tapes every 5 minutes. And it speeds up backups too, so it can't be all bad can it? Of course not."
14:00:52 -!- nooodl has joined.
14:01:36 <boily> helooooooOOOdl
14:02:48 <int-e> gnocchanoodlegoo?!
14:06:17 <FreeFull> noodle goo?
14:06:40 <boily> gnocchi channel nooodl gobbledygook?
14:08:45 <int-e> I started out with "cockadoodledoo".
14:08:53 <int-e> Since apparently it's morning somewhere.
14:09:11 <nooodl> it's 15:08 here but i also just got up. the flu is something
14:09:43 <FreeFull> 14:09 here
14:09:52 <int-e> 15:09:44 <FreeFull> 14:09 here
14:10:21 <FreeFull> Wed 5 Feb 14:10:21 GMT 2014
14:10:22 <oerjan> `? nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooodles
14:10:22 <HackEgo> Nooodles are the invention of the Chinese. They were brought to Europe by Marco Polo, a distant ancestor of Taneb.
14:10:31 <FreeFull> `run date
14:10:31 <HackEgo> Wed Feb 5 14:10:30 UTC 2014
14:10:45 <boily> Today is Sweetmorn, the 36th day of Chaos in the YOLD 3180
14:12:01 <FreeFull> Is that a discordian date?
14:12:15 <boily> it is :D
14:12:59 <int-e> hah. https://twitter.com/ddate
14:13:24 <int-e> (seems to be late though)
14:20:35 <FreeFull> "The rights of a Pope include but are not necessarily limited to: (...) 3. To baptise, marry, and bury (with the permission of the deceased in the latter two cases). "
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14:34:56 <b_jonas> FreeFull: lol
14:37:28 -!- Sellyme has joined.
14:43:44 <boily> ~metar CYUL
14:43:44 <metasepia> CYUL 051412Z 05016KT 2SM -SN BKN014 OVC028 M09/M12 A3015 RMK SC7SC1 SLP213
14:43:51 <boily> back to -SN!
14:48:33 <oerjan> ~metar ENVA
14:48:34 <metasepia> ENVA 051420Z 12008KT CAVOK 04/M05 Q1002 NOSIG RMK WIND 670FT 17010KT
14:50:38 <fizzie> ~metar EFHK
14:50:38 <metasepia> EFHK 051420Z 10005KT 9999 SCT010 BKN150 M04/M06 Q1012 NOSIG
14:50:52 <fizzie> Now they've gotten rid of the runways.
14:50:56 <fizzie> It is a strange.
14:51:03 <fizzie> Oh well, have to bus a catch. ->
14:52:00 <boily> they only show runway conditions if they are suboptimal.
14:52:08 <boily> fizzie: good catching!
14:54:14 <oerjan> i hope he'll release it afterwards.
14:55:10 -!- Namaskar has joined.
14:55:38 * boily gestures “I once catched a 10 ton bus that was that long”
14:57:18 <oerjan> someone give boily medical help for his arms
15:00:01 <boily> contrary to what my previous affirmation may imply, I am most definitely not slenderman.
15:02:14 <boily> “Dith can make any species 'uncannily stealthy' with very little investment. A sneaky troll is awesome!”
15:04:37 <elliott__> whoa they made a god for tras?
15:04:47 <elliott__> or even tren I guess
15:04:52 <elliott__> finally crawl is good again
15:11:43 <callforjudgement> elliott__: not sure I agree with that, dtsund seems to have given recent Crawl up altogether because he feels it's more difficult than it should be
15:11:49 <callforjudgement> due to all the better strategies being nerfed
15:12:07 <elliott__> oh! if dtsund has given up then it's probably even better than I thought
15:13:16 <boily> “more difficult that it should be”? it's a roguelike, for fungot's sake!
15:13:16 <fungot> boily: it exists.)
15:13:19 <boily> fungot: it does.
15:13:19 <fungot> boily: fnord do! exchange has to call another procedure with those values as memory etc... :) ..but true. things work out though, because our cell is no longer ' ()
15:17:31 <callforjudgement> boily: strangely enough, difficulty for the sake of difficulty does not create a good game
15:17:56 <callforjudgement> see, for instance, the comments by the creator of IWBTG about how he went to a lot of effort to make sure it wasn't too hard
15:18:02 <callforjudgement> anyway, time to go home
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15:18:57 <boily> @tell callforjudgement I agree, but fun difficulty with challenging mental challenges is fun. it's like playing go.
15:18:58 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
15:19:19 <boily> @tell ais523 check your callforjudgement messages plzkthx hth twh hand
15:19:20 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
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15:24:05 <int-e> It's important to be able to make progress - being stuck in the same spot for hours is a powerful fun-killer. Others include having to play the same boring sequence over and over again in order to get to a challenging part where one keeps failing.
15:24:09 <int-e> Tough.
15:24:26 <elliott__> that doesn't happen with procedurally generated permadeath games
15:24:32 <elliott__> the latter, at least
15:24:39 <elliott__> not really the former either, unless it's a particularly grindy one
15:25:23 <ski> if you can't make progress in one part, it's nice to be able to attack some other part
15:25:29 <boily> int-e: that's why DCSS has chopped off and shortened many branches and levels.
15:25:53 <boily> ski: that's a big problem Angband has: one main line of repetetitive levels.
15:26:28 <ski> there was some game where apparently some people would go walk in a treadmill for extended periods of time, while they thought over what they had tried, and what they might try to do in other places
15:26:34 <int-e> I'm having the same problem with ninja twins (level 26, no motivation to play further)
15:26:35 <elliott__> ski: crawl does fairly well with that due to branches
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15:27:21 <int-e> (though actually what puts me off most are the game logic glitches. In that level, one can partially push sliding blocks into other ones...)
15:27:27 -!- Tritonio has joined.
15:33:11 <fizzie> oerjan: I caught it, rode it, and then let it go.
15:38:19 -!- Johnnie has joined.
15:38:28 <Johnnie> Thanks 'bot!
15:39:03 <Johnnie> Hello!
15:39:17 <boily> `ello Johnnie
15:39:18 <HackEgo> Jellohnnie
15:39:42 <boily> I think I found my new favourite chimæ̈ric hello ^^
15:39:48 <Johnnie> ^_^ Nice
15:41:02 <Johnnie> After doing some tinkering on SPAM/1, I got to thinking about some of the very early issues of Byte magazine from Archive.org. I remember Chess being one of the first major programs published.
15:42:07 <Johnnie> After that thought got stuck in my head for a while, I got to thinking "Why are we only doing Hello World programs? Couldn't we write something a bit bigger?"
15:42:47 <Johnnie> At first I thought of Chess, and then I thought something more simpler....Tic-Tac-Toe. Hence the entry in the Ideas page.
15:44:52 <ski> hm, i was thinking about "Matt Chat 173: Quest for Glory with Lori and Corey Cole" by Matt Barton in 2012-11-18 at <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CfUgS_iZOw>, at 19:43 and some minutes through
15:44:58 <ski> int-e,elliott__ : ^
15:45:11 <ski> (the whole interview is pretty enjoyable, though)
15:45:42 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Scheduled maintenance).
15:45:45 <Johnnie> I'm going to need to flag that down and view it after work.
15:46:23 <int-e> youtube-dl-ing
15:46:55 * ski doesn't know "Crawl"
15:47:42 <Johnnie> I think a simple game algorithm would tell apart ones who are serious in developing an eso (or joke language) from those who just wants to do a quick BF derivative.
15:48:24 <boily> ski: ssh joshua@crawl.akrasiac.org, password is joshua.
15:48:31 <ski> why ?
15:48:58 <boily> it's the most popular north american public crawl server?
15:49:00 <int-e> BF' ... where cells store functions (initially 0); + adds e^x to the function; - subtracts e^x; . outputs the function value at 0, and ' takes the derivative of the current cell. ;-)
15:49:03 <Johnnie> (Joshua....flashbacks of "War Games" ^__^ )
15:49:23 <int-e> (with respect to x)
15:49:50 <Johnnie> Respect da x
15:50:20 <int-e> It's a derivative derivative of BF.
15:51:17 <Johnnie> That comes curiously close to John Conway's Game of Life, there
15:53:14 <ski> ("Crawl" is a Rogue-like game ?)
15:54:22 <Johnnie> Gotta go.
15:54:32 -!- Johnnie has quit (Quit: Page closed).
15:54:51 <boily> ski: Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup. it is (ostensibly) the Best Roguelike Out There.
15:56:08 <ski> i see
15:56:49 * ski hasn't really felt any urge to try out Rogue-likes
15:57:03 <ski> (perhaps Phantasie III is the closest)
15:57:21 <boily> ~duck phantasie 3
15:57:22 <metasepia> Phantasie is a fantasy role-playing video game series designed by Winston Douglas Wood and published by Strategic Simulations, Inc. in 1985.
15:57:53 <boily> games published before I was born are the best ones.
16:00:04 <ski> otoh, i've spent many hours playing Dungeon Master
16:00:32 <ski> (one of the first 3D realtime action RPGs)
16:05:40 <tromp> i sunk 1000s of hours into DM on my Amiga 500
16:06:08 * ski grins
16:07:03 <tromp> a lot easier to master than Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup:)
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16:21:26 <quintopia> bon matily
16:22:02 <boily> bon matintopia!
16:22:51 <FireFly> ~metar ESSA
16:22:51 <metasepia> ESSA 051550Z 02003KT 6000 BR OVC014 01/M01 Q1007 R01L/19//95 R08/19//95 R01R/19//95 NOSIG
16:23:00 <boily> ~metar KATL
16:23:00 <metasepia> KATL 051552Z 31017G20KT 10SM BKN020 BKN025 11/07 A3002 RMK AO2 SLP169 T01060067
16:23:12 <boily> quintopia: 11? how dare you?
16:23:55 <int-e> ~metar LOWI
16:23:55 <metasepia> LOWI 051550Z VRB08G21KT 9999 FEW070 BKN110 BKN150 09/M02 Q1003 NOSIG
16:24:38 <int-e> mostly because of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foehn winds, apparently.
16:38:51 <quintopia> what? i didn't do it?
16:39:50 <quintopia> i did come up with something so crazy i don't understand it last night
16:40:09 <boily> pray tell!
16:49:33 <quintopia> okay you have a queue of numbers
16:49:54 <boily> so far so good.
16:49:57 <quintopia> and you iteratively do the following
16:50:07 <quintopia> pop two numbers x then y
16:50:31 <quintopia> then pop x numbers and push them in order back onto the queue y times
16:50:58 <quintopia> and if you would pop an empty queue, you get zero
16:51:08 <quintopia> that's it
16:52:01 <int-e> so abc22 -> bcbca, where the reading end of the queue is to the right?
16:52:13 <quintopia> some queues delete themselves (having lots of 1's usually) some queues reach a steady state (of all two's)
16:52:20 <quintopia> and many grow forever
16:52:31 <quintopia> yes int-e
16:52:38 <int-e> and some loop, like 2222 -> 2222
16:52:38 <boily> 6 5 4 3 2 1 → 6 5 4 3 → 0 6 5 0 6 5 0 6 5?
16:52:56 <boily> hm. 3 should be there 2 times.
16:53:14 <int-e> 6 5 4 3 2 1 -> 4 3 6 5, I think.
16:53:29 <int-e> err. which is x, which is y?
16:53:37 <quintopia> boily: 654321 33654 0336033603360336
16:54:03 <quintopia> i usually put the read end on the right so i can append easier
16:54:08 <quintopia> by copy paste
16:55:37 <quintopia> so here's what i know: if you have a queue with no number greater than 2, and no more than 2 2's adjacent, it will delete itself. if you have a queue will all twos (at least four) it never changes, and if you have all >1 it grows without bound.
16:56:03 <int-e> >1?
16:56:04 <quintopia> i have yet to find an oscillator with period >1
16:56:56 <quintopia> int-e: well, okay, it has to have some threes in the right position or it will steady state like all twos
16:57:14 <quintopia> but a healthy mix of twos and threes grows forever, for instance
16:57:35 <quintopia> if they are all >1 it will never get shorter
16:58:15 <int-e> 22 -> 0000 -> 00 -> e. sorry, boundary cases.
16:58:58 <quintopia> int-e: i said at least four twos
16:59:25 <int-e> quintopia: in the last statement you said "healthy" which wasn't defined ;)
16:59:40 <quintopia> because i can't define it simply
17:00:03 <int-e> obviously any 2-digit string will die.
17:00:06 <quintopia> i guess you have to have some threes in positions which are 0 or 1 mod 4
17:02:30 <int-e> tricky. (32222)+ will stop growing.
17:03:10 <int-e> (I'm now also popping from the left)
17:04:49 <int-e> It looks like there are many ways to end up with repeated 2s eventually. The question of finding another kind of loop is interesting.
17:06:44 <quintopia> int-e: you have to have some 3's in both types of positions apparently...
17:07:04 <quintopia> anyway, the cases in between are the ones i'm interested in
17:07:06 <int-e> or not. 07420742 -> 420742 -> 07420742
17:07:15 <quintopia> like what about queues with only 3's and 1's
17:07:48 <quintopia> well that was quick
17:07:50 <quintopia> nice job
17:08:47 <nooodl> what about oscillators of arbitrary period
17:08:49 <int-e> ((0 ?)^k(2k)2)^{>=2}, of period k.
17:08:54 <quintopia> now how about a sequence that grows really really big before deleting itself over the course of thousands of iterations :P
17:09:34 <int-e> 1 10^10^10 1
17:09:39 <nooodl> did int-e just anticipate my question and answer it in two seconds
17:10:19 <quintopia> int-e: what does that say
17:11:01 <int-e> quintopia: that's a starting sequence; after one step you have 10^10^10 1s. after 10^10^10/2 more steps, it'll be empty.
17:11:02 <quintopia> oh i get it
17:11:15 <int-e> or not, it's 10^10^10+1?
17:11:26 <int-e> nah, first guess was correct.
17:11:41 <quintopia> well that's lame. i was hoping it'd have some non-1s in it for most of the steps.
17:11:59 <int-e> But I messed this up: ((0 ?)^k(2k+2)2)^{>=2}, of period k+1
17:12:12 <quintopia> what about a sequence that spends half the cycles growing and half the cycles shrinking, alternating between the two phases forever
17:12:29 <quintopia> wait
17:12:30 <quintopia> nvm
17:12:49 <quintopia> what i just said, but replace forever with "finally deleting itself after thousands of cycles"
17:13:52 <int-e> I guess "look for a cycle with period > 1, without using 0" is a good problem.
17:13:58 <nooodl> what about 1 2 1 2 1 2 1 2 ...
17:14:34 <nooodl> i think that keeps pushing more 1s to the end before becoming just 1s and destroying itself?
17:14:56 <int-e> 121 -> 11; 2121 -> 21; etc.
17:16:58 <int-e> but yes, one can start with 3 n 1 4 1, which will grow for n+1 steps and then shrink for 2n steps, or so.
17:18:08 <int-e> (5 -> 3n -> 3n+1 -> ... -> 4n -> 4n-3 -> 4n-6 -> ... more like 4/3n steps of shrinking)
17:18:18 <int-e> ...
17:18:58 <int-e> No, the shrinking phase consists of consuming 111, appending 1; the difference is only 2.
17:26:44 <quintopia> now i want to start with the beginning of pi
17:34:26 <nooodl> http://sprunge.us/ddVC -- $ python q.py 0 7 4 2 0 7 4 2
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17:38:14 <int-e> python q.py 8 2 0 7 0 9 0 -1 8 2
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17:41:08 -!- password2 has joined.
17:42:15 <quintopia> what
17:42:27 <quintopia> negative numbers?
17:42:36 <int-e> it doesn't matter how often a string of length 0 is repeated ;)
17:42:55 <nooodl> 4 2 0 n 4 2 and 4 2 6 n 4 2 seem to be the shortest oscillators
17:43:40 <nooodl> 5 2 1 0 4 5 2 is also a cool one
17:43:42 <quintopia> i like that i can just describe something here and get an implementation without any effort
17:44:20 <nooodl> ooh it found a new one! 4 3 4 0 4 3
17:45:03 <int-e> a predecessor (4 0 4 3)^3; all part of the pattern :)
17:45:14 <int-e> predecessor *of
17:46:03 <int-e> sorry, I'm wrong.
17:46:53 <int-e> it chops off 6 elements at once, I never did that.
17:47:48 <quintopia> that's a nice one
17:51:09 <quintopia> 426142 is an oscillator, but 426542 grows without bound
17:51:17 <nooodl> http://bpaste.net/raw/LwjTn0HIUewiNZAWZPwJ/ short oscillators
17:52:30 <password2> ??
17:52:40 <FireFly> http://sprunge.us/TfAC now in Python 3 and stopping after reaching ()
17:53:28 <nooodl> 4 n 4n-8 0 4 n is another one that works for all n
17:53:45 <nooodl> like 4 6 16 0 4 6
17:53:52 <quintopia> 426142 is still the only one with no zeros
17:57:46 <int-e> 6 2 10 1 8 1 6 2 is another (period 3). 6 2 8 1 6 2 8 1 is an accidental one with period 12.
17:58:27 <quintopia> nice
17:58:39 <quintopia> looks like we can get complicated behavior?
17:58:48 <int-e> 8 2 14 1 12 1 10 1 8 2 has period 4, and there's a whole familiy of those.
18:03:00 <FireFly> It's a bit obvious, but the 2{4,} family of oscillators could all be generated as 1 N 2
18:03:19 <int-e> (pattern: 2n 2 (4n-2) 1 (4n-4) 1 ... (2n+4) 1 2n 2, for period n)
18:03:30 <kmc> fungot: beep boop
18:03:30 <fungot> kmc: heh, my impression of uni was that the output tape, in any such language from the libraries. you just have a function that will find if two lambda expressions i gave? you didn't use
18:03:53 <kmc> `relcome password2
18:03:54 <HackEgo> password2: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
18:04:10 <FireFly> I think they were `relcome'd yesterday
18:04:26 <FireFly> or was that only an attempt that failed due to unavailability of the HackEgo?
18:04:30 <FireFly> oh okay
18:04:37 <FireFly> the more the merrier, they say
18:08:10 <quintopia> int-e: what is ...
18:08:41 <quintopia> enough random numbers to make the whole thing have 2n+2 elements?
18:09:17 -!- MoALTz has joined.
18:17:26 <boily> back from lunch, and the `relcomes Are!
18:18:47 <password2> ah , finally i get the full relcome
18:19:13 <password2> and . HOLy shizz , colors in an irc channel
18:20:07 <FireFly> `run echo yes | rainbow
18:20:08 <HackEgo> yes
18:20:09 <boily> password2: EMBRACE THE COLOURS!
18:21:43 <password2> may i post NSFW links here?
18:22:17 <Phantom__Hoover> yes but... why would you
18:22:30 <password2> because its on topic and funny
18:22:41 <Phantom__Hoover> well then post it
18:22:49 <password2> NSFW http://anticache.img5.joyreactor.com/pics/post/comics-oglaf-sex-rainbow-479025.jpeg
18:23:31 <password2> that is what went through my head when i read 'EMBRACE the COLOURS'
18:24:23 <FireFly> I thought for a second that you had a NSFW link about esolangs
18:24:29 <FireFly> That'd be.. impressive
18:24:36 <password2> oh no , i meant the colours
18:25:00 <boily> the colours are esoteric?
18:25:10 <FireFly> Of course
18:25:49 * boily browses Amazon for a certain Lovecraft story...
18:25:59 <password2> i am trying to imagine how a nsfw esoteric lang would work
18:26:31 <password2> the pointer will be named D
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18:32:35 <boily> there is a very interesting overlap between this chännel's quotes, and crawl's learndb. I already knew elliott__'s in both, but then monqy too.
18:36:14 <password2> mmm , this channel has made it very tempting to try my hand at writing a eso lang
18:38:02 <password2> i geuss i should try by writing an interpreter for one first
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18:40:22 <boily> password2: that's usually how it goes. you write interps for various esolangs, get your brains mangled by underload, coast along, then create your own...
18:41:00 <password2> ah
18:41:05 <password2> but i'm so lazy
18:41:07 <password2> :p
18:41:44 <int-e> boily: project gutenberg didn't help?
18:42:49 <boily> int-e: oh. hm. eh. eeeeeegbhghghghgh.
18:42:51 -!- augur has joined.
18:43:34 <boily> “eeeeeegbhghghghgh”: a native Canadiamerican word meaning “I completely forgot about Project Gutenberg.”
18:44:41 <int-e> oh and there's this one ... http://cthulhuchick.com/free-complete-lovecraft-ebook-nook-kindle/
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18:50:44 <kmc> fungot: nobody knows the wreck of the soul the way you do
18:50:44 <fungot> kmc: nooooo... *cries*) an call that code from chicken?
18:50:55 <int-e> fungot: (
18:50:55 <fungot> int-e: it returns their both results. boggle.)
18:51:01 <int-e> fungot: (
18:51:01 <fungot> int-e: ummm...i dont know. but i was suggesting that initself_ paste his stuff particularly amusing. and you...
18:51:41 <boily> fungot: whoi is initself?
18:51:41 <fungot> boily: " i've never used rails apart from the ugly ruby frameworks that i'm considering trying it out will be interesting
18:51:54 <boily> fungot: oh, a rubyist.
18:51:54 <fungot> boily: what would ' aa fnord aaaaa' become? :d did i leave?
18:52:07 <boily> fungot: an exponentially growing sequence. next!
18:52:07 <fungot> boily: for say ' ( require-srfi 1)' would be better than buying her a zero
18:52:21 <boily> fungot: hey, no human traffic! you can't buy Fiora.
18:52:21 <fungot> boily: so that ( print ( 5 7 9) ' odd) ( else ' even))
18:52:35 <FireFly> boily: no no, I think the zero was a gift
18:52:40 <boily> btw, where is she?
18:53:00 <boily> FireFly: aaaah. the Gift of the Null Knowledge.
18:53:12 <kmc> <3 oglaf
18:53:31 <FireFly> fungot: flowers and chocolate are common when it comes to humans, but I dunno about bots...
18:53:31 <fungot> FireFly: heh remember the fnord defun but mine would too but apparently it just isn't going to be wrong
18:53:38 <FireFly> but then again, zeroes are ring-formed, so there's always that
18:54:01 <FireFly> fungot: it isn't going to be wrong?! great!
18:54:01 <fungot> FireFly: doesn't fnord five, for example. it could be
18:54:32 <boily> I think a basket of chocolate-covered fnords would be a nice gift to fungot.
18:54:32 <fungot> boily: gui toolkits. which confused me. by " interesting" to most people.
18:54:52 <FireFly> No, I don't think a lot of people find GUI toolkits interesting..
18:55:16 * boily screams “JAVA SWING IS GOOD!”
19:08:08 <olsner> fungot: JAVA SWING IS GOOD?
19:08:09 <fungot> olsner: alfred jarry! say something about th' death of disco!! i'm in a chroot
19:08:38 <olsner> if you grepped for fungot, I wonder if fungot or people asking fungot to speak would make less sense
19:08:39 <fungot> olsner: does " algorithm" for applying unrestricted grammars, whereas i associate logic programming with a set of defined operations on cells? sounds a bit like fnord
19:09:12 <boily> olsner: people make less sense. fungot is the Clearest of Us All.
19:09:12 <fungot> boily: s/ i/it/ it
19:09:22 <boily> olsner: see? ↑
19:15:06 <int-e> shining with the clarity of a smokescreen illuminated by fire
19:18:30 <FireFly> fungot: are you trying to get an "i'm in a chroot" meme going?
19:18:31 <fungot> FireFly: every time i've attempted. ( f a ( f b c) b c) b c)
19:19:05 <int-e> of course there had to be unbalanced parentheses.
19:19:55 * boily balances fungot with a curved mapole
19:19:56 <fungot> boily: uh... this can't be good.
19:20:02 <boily> fungot: no, it isn't.
19:20:03 <fungot> boily: either way it doesn't use any overly schemely stuff', ' names x', you know
19:21:43 <fizzie> Is a Java swing bit like a sex swing?
19:22:11 <int-e> they do have frames
19:23:50 <FireFly> `run quote fungot | shuf -n 1
19:23:51 <fungot> FireFly: i'm just reading the program, and it was long ago...
19:23:51 <HackEgo> 249) <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: if the list is in random order, like poor ehird here
19:24:13 <fizzie> That's a good one.
19:24:35 <FireFly> fungot: yes. that quote was indeed long ago.
19:24:35 <fungot> FireFly: lol, in a country with compartively strong gun control, and partitioning, and almost a week until i buy more!"
19:24:56 <FireFly> uh oh
19:25:26 <boily> fizzie: uhm. your bot. he is become Death.
19:26:00 <fizzie> That's kind of worrying. I guess e's buying guns over the Internet, then.
19:26:53 <fizzie> Also, regarding your earlier question, I think Fiora gave up on the channel when there was that discussion on offensive terminology the other day.
19:27:50 <boily> oh. :(
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19:41:57 <Johnnie> I'm on my first defense :)
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19:55:23 <boily> @tell Johnnie defending what?
19:55:24 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
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19:59:59 <kmc> tromp: I read about your cuckoo proof of work function. very cool!
20:00:42 <tromp> thanks
20:02:25 <tromp> still not seeing any cuckoins though:-(
20:03:03 <kmc> do you plan to develop your own cryptocurrency?
20:03:42 <tromp> nope
20:04:13 <kmc> but you could get rich quick
20:05:08 <tromp> i alrd am:)
20:05:23 <kmc> cool
20:05:32 <FireFly> so where can I buy esocoins?
20:06:13 <tromp> first, port bitcoin source to brainfuck
20:06:31 -!- password2 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
20:07:15 <fizzie> @ask boily You people with your "never use ask and tell consistently" policies!
20:07:15 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
20:07:51 <tromp> or would esocoin replace proof of work be proof of new esolanf design?
20:07:58 <tromp> be->by
20:08:30 -!- Johnny_ has joined.
20:09:20 <Johnny_> Is Nathanator on these IRC chats?
20:09:34 <boily> fizzie: what's the difference between ask and tell? and don't tell me ask is related to MonadReader, and tell MonadState.
20:09:40 <boily> s/State/Writer/
20:11:09 <tromp> what's your excuse for not starting a crypto-currency, kmc?
20:11:43 <boily> Johnny_: we have Taneb.
20:13:12 <Johnny_> Nathanator and Taneb are two separate people, I take it.
20:15:04 <boily> `quote Newcastle
20:15:04 <HackEgo> 963) <boily> it's raining in newcastle, therefore the elliotts are distinct. <tswett> boily's Newcastle Theorem.
20:15:45 <boily> Johnny_: I suppose there's a functor going from elliott__ over to Taneb for that principle.
20:15:45 -!- zzo38 has joined.
20:16:32 <Johnny_> I'm wondering if either SPAM/1 is in danger of being deleted, or if I need to put more effort into it (IE: transfer protocol vs. computer language)
20:16:44 <Johnny_> RE, not IE
20:18:33 <elliott__> no admin is non-lazy enough to delete things with non-spam content
20:19:51 <Johnny_> Okay. That gives me room to work on the programming language part of it. I think I might have put in too much emphasis on the transfer part.
20:21:03 <boily> imho, it's well spent emphasis. the first esolang with amateur radio codes!
20:21:06 <kmc> tromp: basic laziness
20:21:39 <tromp> too lazy to get rich:)
20:21:53 <kmc> i'm already fairly rich
20:21:53 <FireFly> These "Who created X?" captchas are clever
20:22:07 <tromp> anybody here who's poor and not lazy?
20:22:15 <Johnny_> Thanks for the vote of confidence, boily. I want to challenge myself to make a complete game. Either Tic-Tac-Toe (easiest) or chess (ambitious)
20:22:18 <kmc> we have a lot of students don't we...
20:22:19 <FireFly> If I weren't lazy I wouldn't be poor
20:22:31 <oklopol> tromp: will you make such people rich?
20:22:36 <kmc> i don't think the expected value of making a new altcoin is that high
20:22:44 <kmc> and it's the kind of thing i will fuck up with my laziness
20:23:02 <oklopol> wait i probably should've read some context
20:23:10 <tromp> they can start the first coin to use cuckoo cycle proof-of-work
20:23:16 <oklopol> i thought tromp just joined and said that, but it was zzo who joined.
20:24:10 <FireFly> Are the "who invented X?" CAPTCA questions on the wiki generated by parsing the articles or hardcoded?
20:27:05 <Johnny_> When I was chatting up with someone else about my project, they suggested for me to add on the Carrier Pigeon standard as another physical layer of the language.
20:28:24 <Johnny_> I don't think I'm that ambitious...but that would make for an interesting language...based entirely on carrier pigeons and no computers. (Sound existential and possibly stupid doesn't it? :-)
20:28:48 <boily> long live RFC 2549!
20:28:57 <Johnny_> That's the one!
20:28:57 <boily> s/25/11/
20:29:06 <boily> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IP_over_Avian_Carriers ← has them all.
20:29:29 <Johnny_> Bingo!
20:30:51 <FireFly> 1459 is the only RFC number I can remember..
20:33:43 <boily> 2822 has been somewhat important for a few projects.
20:43:37 <Johnny_> You guys are way ahead of me. All I have under my belt is inspiration from the first 6 issues of Byte and the first 2 issues of 73 magazine.
20:48:37 <FireFly> I'm not sure what "ahead" would mean here
20:49:22 <Johnny_> "ahead" here would mean I have no idea what RFC 1459 or (until last night) RFC 2549 are.
20:50:51 <FireFly> You're making good use of RFC 1459 at least
20:52:08 <Johnny_> <-- Googled up RFC 1459
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20:55:46 <Johnny_> Huh...and here I thought the IEEE was all there was. I had no idea the Internet Engineering Task Force existed.
20:56:29 <Johnny_> Oh well, there's probably a whole array of stuff I don't have a clue about, either!
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21:00:27 <Johnny_> revolving door?
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21:32:10 <zzo38> What do you think is better way to store jump tables for use with RTS trick in 6502 programming? Some people store the low byte and high byte of the address together in one table, but I think it is better to store the low and high byte in two separate tables. What do you think is OK?
21:37:48 <kmc> what are the tradeoffs of each approach?
21:39:33 <zzo38> The first way requires a more complicated code to read the table, especially if there are more than 128 entries. The second way is difficult to enter in some assemblers which lack sufficient macro/preprocessor/postprocessor facilities.
21:47:45 <zzo38> It seems other people think the first way is better despite this but to me clearly it is second way which is better.
21:48:00 <zzo38> It is a faster and smaller code.
21:50:20 <kmc> yeah if you can push more of the work to the assembler then that seems better
21:50:32 <kmc> since these days the assembler runs on a machine like 9,000,000,000x faster than the target 6502
21:50:39 <zzo38> Yes
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21:51:14 <zzo38> I suppose they use assemblers without macros or something like that, though; or assemblers with macros that aren't very powerful.
21:51:19 <Taneb> I am enjoying playing Dungeons and Dragons
21:51:19 -!- augur has joined.
21:51:31 <zzo38> Taneb: I was playing Dungeons and Dragons yesterday.
21:51:40 <zzo38> I am typing it now, and will reveal when ready.
21:52:07 <Taneb> Ours isn't recorded and it isn't far enough into the story to tell you what's really going on
21:52:27 <zzo38> O, OK, then
21:52:34 <Taneb> There is a crow sorceress who definitely isn't the Raven Queen, not even a raven queen
21:52:52 <Taneb> Who is after a magical tattoo that ended up on my chest
21:53:38 <zzo38> Now you have to cast a spell to remove it
21:54:02 <Taneb> The party's mage is only level 1
21:54:35 <Taneb> Well, we levelled up at the end of the session
21:54:37 <zzo38> `danddreclist 49
21:54:38 <HackEgo> danddreclist 49: shachaf nooodl boily \ http://zzo38computer.org/dnd/recording/level20.tex
21:54:56 <zzo38> Then use mundane means to remove it to not waste the magic
21:55:05 <zzo38> (Or in case someone might counter it)
21:55:08 <Taneb> I don't think we have access to any
21:55:17 <Taneb> And it doesn't seem particularly nefarious
21:55:24 <Taneb> I mean, I've had it for a session and a half
21:55:44 <zzo38> Now see how my game is played.
21:56:03 <zzo38> I often find it useful to act last even if I have initiative, perhaps almost half of the time.
21:56:22 <Taneb> My character is a pacifist, which is interesting and fun in its own way
21:56:30 <zzo38> That is OK
21:56:43 <Taneb> But all four other members of the party are quite combat heavy
21:57:11 <zzo38> My character is pretty weak at combat too, and doesn't do much combat
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21:57:28 <Taneb> I have a "kill" count, which is currently 1
21:57:33 <zzo38> Mostly doing other stuff, both magical and mundane.
21:57:57 <Taneb> My character mostly heals
21:58:16 <zzo38> But isn't technically pacifist except he won't ever deliberately harm any aberration type creatures.
21:58:42 <zzo38> I also am the one to heal in my party, but isn't most of what I do, and I do have one damaging spell but mainly use it just as one way to light things on fire.
21:59:04 <zzo38> In case we need something lit on fire; if it is nonliving then they can't dodge either.
21:59:48 <zzo38> They also can't save.
22:02:43 <zzo38> The book "Art of Defense in Chess" inspired some of the tactics I use, too. Do you like to use tactics similar to chess and chess variant too?
22:03:00 <Slereah_> Woo, defense!
22:05:00 <kmc> which tactics are those zzo38?
22:05:18 <kmc> and what sorts of things do you light on fire?
22:05:59 <zzo38> kmc: I don't commonly light things on fire, and even when I do, is more commonly using mundane means to do so, but sometimes things such as wooden doors, explosives, etc
22:06:30 <kmc> is that a good way to get through a door which is locked?
22:06:32 <zzo38> The tactics I mean are all sorts of defensive tactics, but also tactics which combine attack with defense.
22:06:55 <zzo38> kmc: It depends on the circumstances. Everything is depend on the circumstances. Maybe there is no need to get through such a door anyways.
22:08:26 <zzo38> I once use a fire to light a secret hideout on fire; I was magically slowed, and would probably have failed if I was fast since the people in the way would not have dodged.
22:09:15 <zzo38> So the slowness is actually to my advantage; spell the opponent cast on me, or try to do, are to my advantage, whether or not I know what the spell is, in fact.
22:10:20 <zzo38> For more details it is necessary to read the file I linked.
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22:29:28 -!- quintopia has joined.
22:30:55 <oerjan> <int-e> BF' ... where cells store functions (initially 0); + adds e^x to the function; - subtracts e^x; . outputs the function value at 0, and ' takes the derivative of the current cell. ;-)
22:31:00 <oerjan> i see what you did there
22:35:51 <oerjan> <quintopia> i usually put the read end on the right so i can append easier <-- heretic!
22:36:49 <oerjan> that makes it a _lot_ harder on the eyes to trace the running
22:37:00 <oerjan> or the brain
22:38:31 <shachaf> oerjan: did you see the olist
22:38:37 <oerjan> yes
22:39:01 <oerjan> live, even
22:39:03 -!- kmc has set topic: Fake diamonds that are glued to eyes of plastic crows | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
22:39:07 <shachaf> whoa
22:39:45 <shachaf> fungot: what do you think of montreal
22:39:45 <fungot> shachaf: i got to work on the mapper. it's
22:40:12 <shachaf> also why does the topic have lyrics in it
22:41:29 <kmc> doesn't it usually, when I've set it?
22:41:37 <kmc> shachaf: they're not even from montreal :<
22:42:09 <kmc> shachaf: what do you think of of montreal
22:42:53 <shachaf> paris
22:42:54 <shachaf> in the
22:42:56 <shachaf> the spring
22:43:04 <shachaf> kmc: i don't know anything about it
22:43:16 <kmc> oslo in the summertime?
22:43:27 -!- Bike has joined.
22:43:34 <kmc> hike
22:44:26 <shachaf> helloke
22:44:49 <Bike> confusing
22:51:46 <kmc> how are you
22:52:06 <kmc> you missed zzo38 talking about lighting things on fire
22:52:37 <Bike> i'm tire
22:52:39 <shachaf> do you know about monotonic functions between finite ordinals
22:52:48 <shachaf> oh, wait. non-empty finite ordinals...........that changes everything
22:52:56 <shachaf> maybe this is why i kept having those off-by-one errors
22:58:43 <nooodl> Bike: are you 2 tired
23:00:33 <Bike> no
23:01:18 <kmc> no matter where we are, we're always touching by underground wires
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23:05:09 <oerjan> `seen nathanator
23:05:10 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access /var/irclogs/_esoteric/????-??-??.txt: No such file or directory \ not lately; try `seen nathanator ever
23:05:13 <oerjan> ack
23:05:19 -!- FreeFull has joined.
23:10:51 <fizzie> HackEgo: You're being a bit optimistic with that `seen ... ever bit. It's not going to work any better.
23:11:17 <kmc> ever the optimist
23:12:07 <oerjan> "it is ILLOGICAL to fill a room with foam" http://www.sheldoncomics.com/archive/140205.html
23:21:44 <oerjan> <FireFly> Are the "who invented X?" CAPTCA questions on the wiki generated by parsing the articles or hardcoded? <-- hardcoded
23:22:00 <FireFly> Booring
23:27:12 <shachaf> who invented this sentence?
23:28:13 <Taneb> I did
23:28:51 <oerjan> `? tanebventions
23:28:51 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, automatic squirrel feeders, the torus, Stephen Wolfram, Go, and weetoflakes.
23:29:32 <oerjan> `run sed -i 's/and .*/weetoflakes, and this sentence./' wisdom/tanebvention
23:29:33 <HackEgo> No output.
23:29:36 <oerjan> `? tanebventions
23:29:37 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, automatic squirrel feeders, the torus, Stephen Wolfram, Go, weetoflakes, and this sentence.
23:30:57 <shachaf> `? this sentence
23:30:58 <HackEgo> this sentence? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
23:31:33 <shachaf> `run echo >wisdom/this\ sentence 'This sentence was invented by Taneb. Taneb invented it.'
23:31:35 <HackEgo> No output.
23:31:57 <oerjan> `? this sentence
23:31:57 <HackEgo> This sentence was invented by Taneb. Taneb invented it.
23:32:45 <shachaf> `? atriq
23:32:45 <HackEgo> atriq or two
23:32:56 <shachaf> `? taneb
23:32:57 <HackEgo> Taneb is not elliott, no matter who you ask. He also isn't a rabbi although he has pretended in the past. He has at least two backup keyboards, and five genders. (See also: d-modules)
23:34:11 <shachaf> `run sed -i 's/d-modules/tanebventions/' wisdom/taneb
23:34:13 <HackEgo> No output.
23:35:21 <oerjan> good idea
23:36:34 <shachaf> did Taneb invent Tanebventions
23:36:39 <FireFly> But how many *backup* genders does Taneb have?
23:36:44 <Taneb> I think boily did, shachaf
23:38:06 <shachaf> is invention transitive
23:38:31 <oerjan> no.
23:42:08 <shachaf> `? cellular automata
23:42:09 <HackEgo> cellular automata? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
23:42:12 <shachaf> `? stephen wolfram
23:42:13 <HackEgo> Stephen Wolfram is an esolanger with too much money and power. Taneb invented him.
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23:45:45 <FireFly> `? esolang
23:45:46 <HackEgo> esolang? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
23:46:26 <FireFly> `? automatic squirrel feeder
23:46:26 <HackEgo> Automatic squirrel feeders are just feeders in the category of automatic squirrels. Taneb invented them.
23:46:56 <FireFly> `? Go
23:46:57 <HackEgo> Go is a common verbal game programming language invented by the Germanic Taneb tribes in the strategic territories of East Asia.
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23:58:33 <luserdroog> Hello, all. I'm working on designing a new esolang, and I'm running into some trouble.
23:58:49 <luserdroog> Some pieces are described here: ...
23:59:04 <luserdroog> http://cs.stackexchange.com/questions/4618/what-piece-am-i-missing-to-turn-this-idea-into-a-programming-language/4912#4912
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