←2014-02-09 2014-02-10 2014-02-11→ ↑2014 ↑all
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00:09:53 <quintopia> oerjan: seg faults?????
00:12:19 <quintopia> oerjan: when you say "none seem to halt" you mean they continue to have zeros in them forever?
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00:34:16 <oerjan> quintopia: well i ran them with | grep -P '((8 )*8)' | head -1 appended
00:35:37 <oerjan> (adjust 8 for actual digit)
00:36:26 <oerjan> so i didn't actually look at the output for all of them
00:38:43 <oerjan> quintopia: of course i didn't run them very long, so if you actually have run any of them to the point they confirmed the conjecture...
00:39:25 <oerjan> i'd sort of guess those that segfaulted did so because they grew enormous length
00:44:17 <quintopia> oerjan: one of these days i'll implement an automatically RLEing list...
00:47:08 <zzo38> Any emulator I have tried does not support any function of $B003 register other than the register labeled "M" here: http://wiki.nesdev.com/w/index.php/VRC6#PPU_Banking_Style_.28.24B003.29
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00:53:28 <Sgeo> Gregor: I still want to buy the Sonivox soundfont
00:53:51 <Sgeo> Although not convinced it's so great compared to Titanic
00:54:22 <Gregor> *shrugs*
00:55:46 <oerjan> quintopia: hm oh well actually 10 _technically_ fulfils the conjecture at one step, it's just that it's so short it needs to pop zeros for the next one.
00:56:47 <Sgeo> Why is this sound called newd.wav?
00:56:55 <Sgeo> It doesn't sound very newd
00:56:59 <oerjan> oh wait that means there's something wrong with my regexp...
00:57:18 <Sgeo> It sounds more... apocalyptic
00:59:31 <oerjan> oh no, the regex's fine, it's the head -1 that somehow doesn't print the first line when nothing more is coming
01:02:52 <oerjan> quintopia: hm looking at the error messages, it might be grep which is doing the segfaulting.
01:03:37 <oerjan> because python gives a broken pipe error message
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01:41:44 <FreeFull> How do you segfault grep?
01:46:02 <Bike> find the "exec other command" command and use it to exec something that segfaults, duh
01:47:00 <oerjan> FreeFull: hm i was using -P, the segfault disappeared when i rewrote the regexp in usual grep style
01:49:19 <oerjan> sadly there still were no matching lines to see
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01:55:50 <zzo38> Do you have a cycle accurate C program to emulate a 6502 CPU?
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04:14:24 <coppro> elliott_________: you appear to be leaking underscores
04:14:39 <coppro> elliott_________: and basically my "help" is "why doesn't haskell have dependent types grrr"
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05:13:36 <Sgeo> http://xkcd.com/1328/
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05:26:46 <oklopol> "<ais523> b_jonas: those aren't non-deterministic, the sense in which they're TC involves generalizing them to an infinite repeating pattern and treating it as a constraint-solving exercise" <<< isn't nondeterminism exactly constraint-solving?
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05:27:09 <oklopol> at least in the np sense
05:27:41 <oklopol> i guess you meant in the thue sense
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05:44:12 * kmc has just read http://www.vanemden.com/books/neals/jipi.html
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06:44:22 <kmc> `dis86 6a3b589948bb2f62696e2f2f73685253545f5257545e0f05
06:44:23 <HackEgo> push 0x3b \ pop rax \ cdq \ mov rbx, 0x68732f2f6e69622f \ push rdx \ push rbx \ push rsp \ pop rdi \ push rdx \ push rdi \ push rsp \ pop rsi \ syscall
06:44:27 <kmc> `run dis86 31c031d2b00b52686e2f7368682f2f626989e3525389e1cd80 -32
06:44:27 <HackEgo> xor eax, eax \ xor edx, edx \ mov al, 0xb \ push edx \ push 0x68732f6e \ push 0x69622f2f \ mov ebx, esp \ push edx \ push ebx \ mov ecx, esp \ int 0x80
06:44:52 <kmc> `unhex 68732f2f6e69622f
06:44:53 <HackEgo> hs//nib/
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06:49:12 <lifthrasiir> `dis86 deadbeef
06:49:12 <HackEgo> invalid
06:49:15 <lifthrasiir> :)
07:00:00 <kmc> `dis86 6a3b589948bb2f62696e2f2f73685253545f5257545e0f05
07:00:01 <HackEgo> push 0x3b; pop rax; cdq; mov rbx, 0x68732f2f6e69622f; push rdx; push rbx; push rsp; pop rdi; push rdx; push rdi; push rsp; pop rsi; syscall;
07:00:17 <kmc> `as86 push 0x3b; pop rax; cdq; mov rbx, 0x68732f2f6e69622f; push rdx; push rbx; push rsp; pop rdi; push rdx; push rdi; push rsp; pop rsi; syscall;
07:00:18 <HackEgo> 6a3b589948bb2f62696e2f2f73685253545f5257545e0f05
07:01:14 <Sgeo> Refrigerators only cost a few hundred dollars?
07:01:25 <Sgeo> I was thinking it would be more like thousands, for some reason
07:02:13 <kmc> `as86 1: xor eax, eax; mov al, 0x39; syscall; jmp 1b
07:02:14 <HackEgo> 31c0b0390f05ebf8
07:03:18 <Bike> well a /good/ refrigerator costs thousands.
07:03:27 <Bike> the walk-in ones you use in your bomb shelters.
07:03:28 <Bike> obviously.
07:03:29 <kmc> «xor eax, eax» has the same effect as «xor rax, rax», isn't it? and one byte shorter
07:03:42 <kmc> Sgeo: you can get small ones for somewhat under $100, even
07:03:44 <Bike> does xor eax eax affect the high bits?
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07:04:21 <Sgeo> So, instead of living with no working fridge, maybe I should just buy one myself already.... although, I also have no way to transport cold-needing foods home
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07:04:45 <kmc> Bike: writing to the low 32 bits of a register clears the upper 32 bits, for reasons
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07:04:52 <Bike> right silly me
07:05:33 <Bike> Sgeo: you can keep foods unrefrigerated for a few minutes as you walk home without them exploding.
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07:06:03 <Sgeo> It's an annoyingly long walk from Stop&Shop, and CVS doesn't have all that much food
07:06:30 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_conditions_for_temperature_and_pressure#Current_use good thing programmers aren't the only ones who suck at standards
07:06:56 <Sgeo> Could keep Red Bull cold, I guess
07:07:03 <Sgeo> FOr the rare occasions I want to have Red Bull at home
07:07:10 <Sgeo> (Snowstorm)
07:07:25 <kmc> Sgeo: do you have a landlord who should fix the fridge?
07:07:53 <Sgeo> It's a co-op, I think we're supposed to maintain it. Even if not, we don't really want our landlord walking in here
07:08:26 <kmc> you can get food delivered maybe
07:08:37 <kmc> I know this is a thing in NYC; I don't know how far out on Long Island you can do it
07:08:47 <Sgeo> I can walk to CVS to buy some foods
07:08:56 <Sgeo> Instant pasta, some noodles, etc.
07:09:04 <Sgeo> Or on good days can have pizza dinners
07:09:09 <Sgeo> And Subway
07:09:24 <kmc> "In my experience, boxes are usually empty, sometimes with a little cheese stuck to the top, and one time pepperoni, what a day that was!"
07:09:45 <Sgeo> As in, not too cold to walk to pizza place
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07:32:07 <Sgeo> "Why does Firefox take 30 seconds to shut down? Because it's anal about cleaning up stuff that the OS could discard in milliseconds, and because current programming languages do not distinguish between optional resource deallocations and mandatory finalization such as flushing buffers"
07:32:09 <Sgeo> Is that accurate?
07:32:38 <kmc> i seriously doubt it
07:33:02 <kmc> have you ever observed firefox to take 30 seconds to shut down?
07:33:18 <Sgeo> I haven't used Firefox in years... well, except for at work
07:33:34 <kmc> i started using it again when i took a job at mozilla
07:33:44 <Sgeo> This is from 2012
07:33:44 <Sgeo> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/9033931/memory-leak-c
07:33:44 <kmc> i can't really observe a performance difference from chromium anymore
07:34:22 <kmc> i think it would be easy enough to hack the allocator to make free() a no-op during shutdown
07:34:37 <kmc> so if this made a big difference they would already be doing it
07:34:55 <kmc> most things on stackoverflow are wrong
07:35:29 <Sgeo> That's depressing
07:35:43 <ais523> hmm, this is possibly the first time I've seen someone criticize Firefox for /not/ leaking memory
07:35:49 <kmc> :D
07:36:35 <kmc> although you can only make free() a no-op if the shutdown is un-cancellable
07:37:37 <Sgeo> Why is Windows Vista so pretty?
07:37:49 <Bike> because a lot of designers spent a lot of time making it so
07:38:12 <shachaf> why do you think it's called that
07:38:21 <kmc> buena vista
07:38:34 <ais523> Sgeo: basically because Microsoft decided to move to a compositing window managers for performance reasons, and it's hard for window managers to resist screwing around with all the fun things you can do with compositors
07:39:18 <kmc> http://jerkcity.com/_jerkcity1024.html -- I'm a bit disappointed that the ANSI C citation here doesn't seem to be relevant
07:39:27 <Sgeo> Not even talking about that (although sad it seems to have been removed from 8?). Just the... wallpapers and taskbar theme
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07:40:06 <ais523> I'm pretty sure 8 still does compositing, they just changed the theming
07:41:59 <kmc> really pissed that the Wikipedia deletionists got to the Jerkcity article
07:42:30 <kmc> it even had extensive citations http://www.jerkcity.com/wikipediasucks/Jerkcity.html
07:45:50 <kmc> fungot: this is all an
07:45:50 <fungot> kmc: since scheme has no builtin fnord under which defenition are characters, strings, ports)
07:46:24 <fizzie> The extensive citations all seem to be primary sources, though.
07:46:57 <fizzie> "Do not base an entire article on primary sources, and be cautious about basing large passages on them." (WP:PS)
07:49:05 <kmc> markov chain which combines king james bible with wikipedia policy documents
07:49:39 <fizzie> fungot: You heard the kmc; get to it.
07:49:39 <fungot> fizzie: if only people spoke " choose your own adventure". otoh, he's been using lisp since 1988. so i need something to tell gnomon. if only inequalities are supported in gauche's native encoding?)
07:52:35 <kmc> ^style
07:52:35 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
07:52:39 <kmc> ^style speeches
07:52:39 <fungot> Selected style: speeches (misc. speeches from Project Gutenberg)
07:52:44 <kmc> fortune favors the fungot
07:52:44 <fungot> kmc: " fnord fnord." on lincoln's nomination to the united states in a space of little more than three years elapsed before a change of ministry. his favourite disciple, george canning, young, military fnord, and the nation as buyer, to sell out the old whig party, i repeat, i am not safe from them.
07:53:01 <shachaf> fizzie: how does your speech recognition do on this fungot style
07:53:01 <fungot> shachaf: such disobedience on the part of the scheme. in the monastic institutions, in my childish days i remember to have heard a great deal of writing on the palm of eloquence doubtful. addington made a pitiable appearance between the court and juries should subsist any longer? on what principle is it that speaks thus? that of the augustan age: " fnord fnord fnord
07:53:44 <fizzie> It's challenging, because we generally expect a single utterance to come from a single speech, and not a jumble of several.
07:54:07 <kmc> fungots fall on fungot falls
07:54:08 <fungot> kmc: gentlemen, i know mr. rockefeller, two weeks ago, and wrought out to a governor the general line of his arguments. but that was no place to talk about it as it is, i got off they started to raise a revenue in america. for even then, discussion was fnord but the subject is on my mind that he entertained no principle either to influence his heart, and still, therefore, decide on their respective claims to our confidence so f
07:54:37 <shachaf> ^style fungot
07:54:38 <fungot> Selected style: fungot (What I've said myself)
07:54:43 <Sgeo> I remember there was a flash game that I was surprised had a Wikipedia article about it... found out some things about it that I couldn't find anywhere else
07:54:51 <fizzie> "on what principle is it that speaks thus? that of the augustan age: 'fnord fnord fnord'"
07:54:52 <Sgeo> Can't even remember what it was called now :(
07:54:52 <kmc> seen things you can't un-see
07:54:55 <fizzie> Good principle.
07:55:00 <kmc> fungots of all kinds
07:55:00 <fungot> kmc: i use slatex tex2page, and then to beslubber our garments with it, it had some obvious deficiences ( such as `,3 sub by 47, 48, 49, 64, 65, 66, 67, 68, 69, 70, 71, 72, 73, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78, 79, 80, 81, 100, 121, 144, 169, 196, 225, 256, 512 ...too much output!
07:55:18 <Sgeo> It's the one where you hit some guy and he keeps bouncing on the ground and colliding with girls
07:55:27 <Sgeo> Which... actually sounds pretty weird
07:55:33 <kmc> is it a dating sim
07:55:43 <Sgeo> It wasn't adult, but I think the characters came from an adult story of some sort
07:55:46 <Sgeo> Not a dating sim
07:56:48 <Sgeo> Nanaca Crash
07:56:48 <ais523> wow, I think I know the game you mean, one of my friends back at secondary school (like 10 years ago now) was addicted to it (although I've never played it)
07:56:50 <ais523> yep
07:56:57 <ais523> not sure how to spell it because I've only heard it spoken
07:57:12 <fizzie> Sgeo: I just located Nanaca Crash by googling for "flash game where you hit some guy and he keeps bouncing on the ground and colliding with girls" -- the first hit was relevant.
07:57:17 <kmc> fungot: i'm surrounded by them
07:57:17 <fungot> kmc: something like scheme48 ( upon the general position is a part of these amendments, i can only thank the president-in-office, you did hear me say that we have had in getting information with regard to monetary policy, a factor is
07:57:25 <kmc> fizzie: Google is pretty impressive
07:57:45 <fizzie> (I do remember that game too.)
08:00:17 <fizzie> 1260.79 m. I wonder if that's good or bad.
08:00:47 <ais523> quite good, IIRC
08:05:35 <fizzie> I guess not so good, because on second attempt I got 2800.11m. I think that's enough, though.
08:06:18 <fizzie> (I don't really understand the game mechanics. This time there was some sort of a "cosmic force field".
08:15:26 <Sgeo> fizzie: that wikipedia article has them, I think
08:18:31 <fizzie> Yes, it was very informative.
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08:20:38 <shachaf> hm, 2650.02m
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08:20:57 <shachaf> it was not obvious to me at first that there was any audience participation beyond the first click
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08:25:11 <zzo38> This 6502 assembly code program contains a table "db 0,0,1,255,1,0,0" which is used in a few different ways, by reading it starting at different offsets; in one case it even uses the low two bits of the flag register as an index into this table.
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08:25:45 <zzo38> (This wasn't entire intentional; I just found that I could use the same table in several ways, so I did.)
08:26:39 <zzo38> Are you aware what the flag bits are in 6502 programming?
08:28:24 <ais523> yes, although I can't remember which order they're in
08:28:36 <ais523> do you push them onto the stack in order to get them into the X/Y register?
08:28:48 <zzo38> Yes
08:29:09 <zzo38> Although you cannot pop from the stack directly into the X or Y register
08:30:11 <zzo38> The low two bits of the flag register happen to be the carry flag at bit0, and the zero flag at bit1.
08:31:05 <zzo38> I don't know how common it is to perform arithmetic on the flag register
08:31:43 <zzo38> Or to perform arithmetic on instruction opcodes, which I have also done.
08:32:46 <zzo38> Do you know of any such things?
08:33:23 <zzo38> (I think in some extended 6502 instructions sets it is possible to take from the stack directly into a X register, but not in the normal 6502 anyways.)
08:35:24 <kmc> what do you do with arithmetic on instruction opcodes?
08:35:59 <kmc> in one of my programs I have a system call to read() which overwrites part of an instruction, but not an opcode
08:36:09 <zzo38> kmc: I mean adding, subtracting, exclusive ORing, etc numbers and storing the result in a RAM where it will be executed as an instruction opcode.
08:36:26 <zzo38> kmc: What program is that, and what CPU?
08:36:35 <kmc> amd64 cpu
08:36:49 <kmc> i will show you the program when it is ready
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08:39:01 <kmc> zzo38: why is it useful to do arithmetic on opcodes, though?
08:40:11 <kmc> i have to sleep now, though
08:40:12 <kmc> good night
08:41:32 <zzo38> Here is the relevant code: AND #$04 ASL A ASL A ASL A STA <ppuadd1 EOR #$38 STA <ppuadd2 (ppuadd2 points to an instruction code, while ppuadd1 points to an operand of an ADC instruction)
08:42:06 <zzo38> (The < is the syntax in MagicKit to use zero-page addressing.)
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09:16:11 <zzo38> ais523: Do you understand any of this?
09:17:08 <fizzie> I thought I used xor to toggle between two opcodes in a self-modifying Z80 program, but it seems I just write them explicitly, since the two places that change it are separate.
09:17:43 <ais523> zzo38: yes, although my assembler didn't need a special syntax for zero page
09:19:16 <zzo38> ais523: Yes, most don't, although in my opinion the MagicKit syntax (which not only uses a special syntax for zero page, but uses square brackets for indirection) is better than the official syntax anyways.
09:20:14 <zzo38> fizzie: Yes you could do that, although of course it depend on the program, since it is also possible that they would be updated in the same way, like I have.
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09:24:18 <zzo38> ais523: What assembler did you use?
09:28:40 <ais523> zzo38: the one in the BBC Micro ROM
09:29:42 <zzo38> OK
09:29:55 <zzo38> I didn't know it had one
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17:05:03 <Johnnie> Hallo!
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17:06:59 <Johnnie> Quick question, very minor: how are program listings done on the Wiki? Are they done through external links (IE: .txt files on another website), internal links (could you use Wiki space for program listings) or right on the page?
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17:30:14 <ais523> oh, I wasn't online enough to answer
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17:30:43 <ais523> @tell Johnnie if it's short, use <pre> blocks right on the page; long programs are normally linked externally but can be placed on subpages
17:30:43 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
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17:41:34 <zzo38> Can you see the purpose of my AND #$04 ASL A ASL A ASL A STA <ppuadd1 EOR #$38 STA <ppuadd2 code? (Hint: It is related to the Famicom PPU)
17:42:34 <zzo38> Which is described at http://wiki.nesdev.com/w/index.php/PPU_registers
17:50:04 <zzo38> I found a repository on GitHub that contains links to other projects. Is this a feature of the git system?
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17:59:38 <fizzie> Git does have a concept of "submodules" that are essentially links to other Git repositories.
18:00:27 <fizzie> (I don't know how they look like in GitHub.)
18:01:23 <olsner> (submodules are also widely considered to suck)
18:02:15 <int-e> https://github.com/ghc/ghc/tree/master/libraries has a bunch of submodules (but those are not - primarily - hosted on github)
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18:28:34 <zzo38> I found some z80 codes for multiplication/division.
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18:29:45 <zzo38> Now I should try to convert to 6502 codes, but I don't know all z80 instruction exactly what they mean.
18:32:12 <fizzie> There's (possibly not terribly good) multiplication routines for Z80 also in the SDCC C compiler.
18:32:27 <fizzie> I was thinking there might be 6502 routines too, but apparently SDCC didn't target the 6502 after all.
18:32:41 <ais523> zzo38: the manual I learned 6502 asm from had 16-bit multiply and divide in an appendix
18:33:45 <fizzie> There's a 6502 multiplication routine included in the CC65 sources, however.
18:34:40 <fizzie> https://github.com/oliverschmidt/cc65/blob/master/libsrc/runtime/mul.s and https://github.com/oliverschmidt/cc65/blob/master/libsrc/runtime/mul8.s
18:34:45 <fizzie> (Disclaimer: it might not be any good at all.)
18:35:46 <fizzie> (And division code in div.s, udiv.s.)
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18:37:28 <zzo38> OK
18:38:53 <int-e> tax, hmm.
18:41:12 <kmc> http://www.onlinedisassembler.com/odaweb/
18:44:29 <ion> neat
18:48:03 <int-e> fizzie: the mul8x8 looks suspicious to me; how is the y register ever initialised?
18:49:19 <kmc> also http://gcc.godbolt.org/
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18:54:23 <atriq> Would it be correct to say that regular expressions from a semiring?
18:55:05 <int-e> sure.
18:55:22 <atriq> Yay
18:55:31 <atriq> Is it particularly useful, though
18:55:42 <int-e> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kleene_algebra
18:56:22 <atriq> Oooooh
18:56:24 <shachaf> atriq: not really speaking of which, did you read http://conway.rutgers.edu/~ccshan/wiki/blog/posts/WordNumbers1/
18:56:37 <atriq> I did not
18:57:28 <shachaf> it's a series
18:58:25 <atriq> Oooooooooooh
18:58:41 <fizzie> int-e: I would think it's initialized by the ldy #8 on line 22.
18:58:52 <fizzie> int-e: (mul8x8 is not an exported entry point.)
19:00:17 <int-e> fizzie: thanks
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19:10:25 <atriq> shachaf: interesting read, thanks
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19:59:06 <zzo38> What is this? http://wiki.nesdev.com/w/index.php/Talk:Glossary It looks like it replaced accented letters with Chinese, but I don't know what would cause such thing!
19:59:39 <ais523> zzo38: it could be an encoding issue
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20:19:56 <fizzie> There are a number of character sets where a UTF-8 è (as in the word très) would be interpreted as 猫, as listed by a quick and dirty iconv -l | while read cs; do c=$(echo 'è' | iconv -f $cs); if [ "$c" == "猫" ]; then echo $cs; fi; done 2>/dev/null
20:21:42 <fizzie> (Including GB2312/EUC-CN and Windows code page 936.)
20:24:17 <fizzie> Looking at some other characters narrows it down to probably just cp936.
20:25:06 <fizzie> (The correspondence between 脿 and à, to be precise.)
20:25:45 <ais523> I'm surprised that there are encodings that would pick just 128 CJK characters to include in the high bits, if they're that complex
20:25:55 <ais523> it doesn't seem so useful to have such a small subset of the characters available
20:26:51 <fizzie> Hm? UTF-8 è and à are two-byte encodings, and translate to a single CJK character (猫, 脿) in those. Unless you're talking about some other encodings.
20:28:30 <ais523> fizzie: oh, I thought it was being translated from Latin-1
20:28:37 <ais523> because I'm used to codepages being 8-bit
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20:32:32 <fizzie> I believe CP936 is one of the Windows "DBCS" schemes, which is a multi-byte scheme with 00..7f alone as single-byte characters, and 80..ff as "lead bytes" that signal the start of a two-byte character, with the trailing half allowed to be any byte.
20:32:48 <fizzie> (So 2^15+2^7 available characters.)
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20:37:06 <fizzie> Not that I can really understand what it's trying to say, even after fixing the encoding.
20:37:24 <fizzie> It reads like some autogenerated spam filler text.
20:37:39 <ais523> maybe it /is/ autogenerated spam filler text?
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20:48:01 <kmc> fizzie: nice detective work
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22:53:56 <kmc> http://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/1xi8kd/this_week_in_rust_9_feb_2014/cfblq3e
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23:29:39 <oerjan> quintopia: i found definite proof that your 3 1 6 3 2 1 4 n was false for the remaining cases
23:29:50 <oerjan> (see talk page)
23:30:01 <oerjan> *+conjecture
23:31:42 <oerjan> quintopia: also i don't think lexicographic order means what you think it means.
23:32:04 <oerjan> (by which i mean, any sequence starting 11 is before 142)
23:33:31 <oerjan> (regardless of length)
23:34:09 <FireFly> Apparently there is a wiktionary entry for the word 'esolangs'
23:34:18 <oerjan> yay
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23:51:36 <oerjan> quintopia: btw you could consider n=4 the same type as n=10, although you need to note then that the alignment will never be odd.
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