00:01:24 <quintopia> on the bright side, norway is still in the lead at the games, and i got a stroopwaffel for valentimes
00:02:25 <oerjan> despite several of our best having some bad luck
00:04:12 <oerjan> apparently our athletes are not used to doing competitive skiing in > +10 celsius temperatures
00:05:27 <oerjan> (that's 50 fahrenheit for you weirdos)
00:10:01 <fizzie> oerjan: Not if you sort by number of gold medals hth
00:10:53 <quintopia> hmm the U.S. is second in all-time winter olympics medals. Austria is third. Canada is way behind. I would have expected better from Canada.
00:10:56 <oerjan> i haven't actually kept up with the games enough to know what actual score is
00:11:40 <fizzie> "The gold first ranking system described above is used by most of the world media, as well as the IOC. While the gold first ranking system has been used occasionally by some American media outlets, newspapers in the United States and Canada primarily publish medal tables ordered by the total number of medals won,[6][7][8][9][10][11] and Canada used the total medal count on the official website ...
00:11:46 <fizzie> ... for the Vancouver Olympics."
00:12:20 <fizzie> Of course the only true ranking system is to order the table in ascending Levenshtein distance of the country name from the string "Finland", in which we've generally been doing p. well.
00:15:06 <quintopia> order gold-first, the top two are still norway and U.S., but then third goes to Soviet Union (for now) and fourth to Germany. apparently Austria gets on the podium a lot, but not in the top spot as often as Germany.
00:15:54 <fizzie> Finland also drops quite a lot when going from total to gold (in winter game medals).
00:15:56 <quintopia> it would probably be more fair to compare on the basis of golds/games attended
00:18:07 <fizzie> "Thomas Hicks (a Briton running for the United States) was the first to cross the finish-line legally, after having received several doses of strychnine sulfate (a common rat poison, which stimulates the nervous system in small doses) mixed with brandy from his trainers. He was supported by his trainers when he crossed the finish, but is still considered the winner."
00:18:28 <fizzie> (For the 1904 games' marathon.)
00:19:31 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1904_Summer_Olympics#Marathon
00:19:42 <quintopia> seems like the kind of thing they'd retroactively toss out of the record books
00:19:44 <fizzie> Must've been kind of different event, back then.
00:20:20 <oerjan> well historically, you're _supposed_ to die after doing the marathon.
00:20:25 <fizzie> Also this bit: "A Cuban postman named Felix Carbajal joined the marathon, arriving at the last minute. He had to run in street clothes that he cut around the legs to make them look like shorts. He stopped off in an orchard en route to have a snack on some apples, which turned out to be rotten. The rotten apples caused him to have to lie down and take a nap. Despite falling ill from the apples ...
00:20:31 <fizzie> ... he finished in fourth place."
00:21:34 <fizzie> "The participants totalled 651 athletes – 645 men and 6 women representing 12 countries. However, only 42 events (less than half) actually included athletes who were not from the United States."
00:21:43 <fizzie> In St. Louis, Missouri.
00:22:03 <fizzie> Easy way to rack up those medals, I guess?
00:22:47 <fizzie> [[ St. Louis organizers repeated the mistakes made at the 1900 Summer Olympics in Paris. Competitions were reduced to a side-show of the World's Fair and were lost in the chaos of other, more popular cultural exhibits. David R. Francis, the President of the Louisiana Purchase Exposition, declined to invite anybody else to open the Games and, on July 1 did so himself in a scaled-down short and ...
00:22:53 <fizzie> ... humdrum "ceremony". ]]
00:22:56 <fizzie> Such humble beginnings.
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00:26:22 <oerjan> <ais523> and yeah, there are quite a few, but they all seem to misunderstand quantum computation <-- hm i vaguely thought we had at least one that used proper quantum gates
00:29:35 <quintopia> quantum computing is already so esoteric it's hard to make an esolang out of it
00:30:15 <oerjan> <ais523> actual quantum computing is more like, you have all these threads, but only one of them, chosen at random, actually does anything <-- i am not entirely sure you're sufficiently less confused than the average programmer, here
00:30:44 <ais523> oerjan: I implemented a quantum computer simulator as an A-level project
00:30:57 <oerjan> okay, i guess that counts
00:30:58 <ais523> and ran Shor's algorithm on it
00:32:04 <kmc> oerjan: well the next thing he said was about interference.
00:32:13 <kmc> without that it's a pretty incomplete description, yeah
00:32:19 <ais523> also I was trying to fix the typical analogy that people use, rather than create a new one from scratch
00:32:38 <quintopia> i think whatsisname did a pretty good job of summarizing for the lay person. "You set up an entangled system to performs some computation on all answers simultaneously, such that the right is probabilistically amplified while all the wrong answers destructively interfere"
00:33:03 <oerjan> the thing is that afair you cannot actually _distinguish_ threads that have the same outside visible result, which is the same as those that interfere with each other
00:33:59 <oerjan> so saying that any particular thread actually runs is slightly dubious in my mind. although i guess the math works out.
00:34:17 <kmc> now we're getting into interpretation of QM territory :)
00:34:29 <kmc> bring back zzo38 the neutral monist!
00:35:00 <ais523> I know that someone who allegedly know what they were talking about claimed that practical quantum computers would be proof of the many-worlds interpretation
00:35:14 <ais523> on the basis that there wasn't enough computational power in the universe, thus the computation must extend through more than one
00:36:30 <oerjan> my view seems to be heading towards the fundamentals being information and consciousness, which only partially correspond to matter and mind
00:36:45 -!- kmc has set topic: Remove the stone of shame! Attach the stone of triumph! | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
00:37:19 <boily> good char siu evening!
00:37:38 <oerjan> but still i'm not really monist because i don't see how information alone can be conscious, nor consciousness alone can have ordered experiences
00:37:40 <kmc> ais523: what basis did they have for making an assertion about the amout of comput. power in the universe?
00:38:18 <ais523> kmc: I think it was based on the volume of the universe and the theoretical maximum information storage density
00:38:46 <quintopia> oerjan: no that's wrong you're crazy hth
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00:40:17 <oerjan> quintopia: whatshisname = aaronson?
00:40:52 <quintopia> ais523: it seems there could be a number of ways to store more information without requiring extra whole parallel universe. not that i'm opposed to the idea...
00:44:13 <oerjan> quintopia: i must be crazy i though aaronson treated that poor crackpot who challenged him to a P vs. NP bet the other day rather unnecessarily rudely.
00:47:26 <oerjan> http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=1687#comment-100407
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00:49:38 <oerjan> eek it's shikhin's evil mirror twin
00:49:39 <quintopia> zzo38: are you, in fact, a neutral monist?
00:49:52 <zzo38> quintopia: I think so.
00:49:56 <ais523> if a constructive proof of P=NP were discovered (e.g. P-time algo for 3-SAT), just how badly would it destroy the world?
00:50:35 <oerjan> ais523: assuming the polynomial is also reasonably small, all public key crypto, *whoosh*
00:50:37 <ais523> like, would we recover quickly from the death of all widely used crypto? would nothing happen because people fixed issues before it could be exploited? would the new algorithm lead to an eternal age of peace and prosperity?
00:51:15 <oerjan> and it would destroy public key crypto in _general_, unlike quantum computers (afaik)
00:52:07 <zzo38> It may mix up things badly but not the destruction of the world. necessary. And maybe P=NP is untrue which means there is no valid proof (but maybe that, too, is unprovable).
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00:54:09 <oerjan> it might also put a dent in private key crypto that isn't truly unbreakable like one time pads
00:54:29 <zzo38> Possibly that too.
00:56:01 <oerjan> since it might allow you to find by guessing which key gives the most readable decrypted message
00:56:11 <oerjan> or something like that
00:57:11 <oerjan> (this doesn't work for one time pad because then _all_ readable messages are given by some key)
00:59:29 <quintopia> oerjan: i read the thread. it didn't seem that bad to me.
01:01:32 <quintopia> ais523: crypto would recover if quantum crypto became readily available. however, all my BTC becomes worthless then, so let's hope it doesn't happen.
01:02:52 <newsham> lots of things become worthless if that happens
01:03:00 <newsham> plus lots of your previous encrypted data is magically transparent
01:03:44 <quintopia> eh i don't have much in the way of encrypted data i need to keep private
01:07:00 <oerjan> quintopia: hm i'm not meaning rude in an "insult with swear words" sense, but rude in a "doesn't try to understand that the other guy sees things differently (albeit insanely) and calls him dishonest if he doesn't live up demands he's never accepted" sense.
01:09:00 <elliott> It is that you bet $200k, keeping your confidence about the matter, but you have the choice of paying as low as one (1) US dollar, AND I have the right to refuse any amount above $1. I think that is clear. Let me know if you understand otherwise.
01:09:17 <quintopia> i see it as him being a busy guy who does have time or mental energy to try to understand every crackpot he comes in contact with. he dismissed a potentially lengthy and fruitless comment thread in order to keep the SNR high for the rest of his readers.
01:10:24 <elliott> I don't get that quote at all
01:10:36 <oerjan> elliott: ok he doesn't have the best english either :P
01:11:35 <elliott> I can't even think of any interpretation of that that makes any sense at all
01:12:57 <oerjan> it makes perfect sense to me hth
01:13:10 <oerjan> (if i don't try to assume the guy is rational, that is)
01:14:03 <elliott> that's kind of dissatisfying as an answer
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01:17:47 <oerjan> elliott: thinking some more about this, i think he has strange ethical principles about betting large amounts of money, that conflict with other principles about making this a real bet, in an unresolved way.
01:18:35 <elliott> oerjan: why not just ask for a $1 bet, though?
01:18:40 <elliott> scott seemed perfectly happy with that
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01:28:22 <kmc> i have two keyboards hooked up to this computer and i'm currently typing with one hand on each of them
01:28:26 <kmc> kind of an odd sensation
01:31:05 <Jafet> So how fast can you double tap
01:32:09 <oerjan> elliott: well that wouldn't be a real bet, would it >:)
01:32:29 <Phantom_Hoover> watching bitcoiners realise that unregulated money is actually kind of awful is always heartwarming
01:36:30 <metasepia> CYUL 150100Z 26013G18KT 4SM -SN FEW030 BKN060 M05/M07 A2959 RMK SC2SC4 SLP020
01:36:40 <boily> the -SN. it won't stop.
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01:46:53 <Sgeo> Hmm, I wonder if trying to define lenses in Scheme is as silly as trying to define do notation in Scheme
01:54:45 <FreeFull> I'm not sure how well it'd work without the types
01:55:01 <FreeFull> You'd need a generic map, at the very least
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01:56:54 <Sgeo> Need, or want?
01:57:05 <Sgeo> Certainly want it for mapped/traverse, but...
01:57:22 <Sgeo> I believe Racket's map is generic across sequences but not all possible functors
01:57:33 <Sgeo> Or are you talking about the zipper with delimited continuation thing?
01:58:30 <oerjan> couldn't you just pass the map function to the lens as an argument
01:59:08 <oerjan> i guess that ruins lens composition = function composition, but scheme isn't big on the latter anyway, i think
01:59:25 <Sgeo> I'm completely ignoring lens composition = function composition
01:59:28 <Sgeo> I really don't see the point
01:59:43 <Sgeo> I have a lens as a structure containing a getter and a modifier
02:00:00 <Sgeo> Should I have it have a setter too? Are there lens-like things that have setters but no modifiers?
02:00:31 <oerjan> hm lens library's Setter is a modifier, anyway
02:01:16 <elliott> Sgeo: if you really don't see the point, then you really don't see the point of lens, which is composition with the subtyping hierarchy
02:01:17 <oerjan> and it's at the end of the hierarchy, so nothing weaker
02:01:40 <elliott> if you just want to define lenses then ok. (but they're boring)
02:02:48 <Sgeo> elliott: I'm kind of allowing the definition of lenses with no getter, although not in a particularly clean way (just causing composition to error if the composed lens's getter is attempted to be used)
02:02:48 <oerjan> <fizzie> I keep *doing* it. <-- i note he managed to accidentally evade your question, too
02:02:56 <Sgeo> Not really sure what other types of things there are :/
02:04:02 <oerjan> Sgeo: have you looked at the diagram at http://hackage.haskell.org/package/lens
02:04:13 <Sgeo> I... tried, once
02:04:17 <Sgeo> I can try again
02:04:21 <elliott> traversals, lenses, prisms, isos are important
02:04:37 <elliott> the weakened versions of those without setting too, to a lesser degree
02:05:16 <oerjan> hm MonadicFold is that a bit new?
02:05:16 <Sgeo> I think I have traversals covered (or, as well as can be given the lack of generic traverse), isos are stronger than lenses, aren't they? But I do want prisms, haven't given them enough thought
02:05:34 <elliott> you don't have traversals unless they compose with lenses
02:06:13 <Sgeo> What's the difference between a traversal and a setter?
02:08:05 <Sgeo> Maybe I should give some thought to attempting a van whatshisname based implementation
02:09:11 <Sgeo> Also, Racket sucks enough at nested data structures that even lenses, by themselves, are interesting...
02:09:31 <elliott> you need a proper type system with HKP and typeclasses (or else subtyping, maybe, possibly, if it's flexible enough)
02:09:43 <elliott> or else awful ugly runtime stuff I guess
02:09:47 <elliott> but I don't want to think about that
02:10:55 <Sgeo> Also, I don't really get how typeclasses can be mandatory unless there are functions that need to be polymorphic on the return type. Racket does have generic functions
02:10:58 <elliott> higher-kinded polymorphism
02:11:17 <elliott> anyway, I suggest you study the design of the lens library more. then you will be able to make your own judgements
02:12:10 <Sgeo> Probably a good idea
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02:28:34 <Sgeo> (apply (compose1 compose1 curry)
02:28:43 <Sgeo> At this point, I should probably just use a fold or something
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02:42:28 <Sgeo> Fuck YouTube and fuck the cloud
02:42:40 <Sgeo> My favorites list seems to have been truncated to 100
02:42:54 <kmc> cloudy with a chance of fuck
02:43:00 <HackEgo> bibleiocoin wadublecoin feetlecoin iastacoin chacoin oaicoin atlycoin pumcoin utquethesecoin laughcoin bibillcoin q-revacoin wtfzomecoin gritseifcoin yagecoin ementcoin biblecoin smasycoin lolangcoin optercoin
02:43:59 <oerjan> it seems to be on a scriptural streak
02:44:33 <oerjan> i think wtfzomecoin could catch on
02:47:53 <zzo38> This is the chess game of someone's dreaming: 8/3q4/6nk/4P1pp/8/2Q3K1/4B2P/8 Black to play.
02:48:55 <oerjan> is this some known notation
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02:49:48 <zzo38> There is several software to interpret it (including my own "TeX Chess"), or you can do it manually.
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03:35:36 <zzo38> Uppercase letter means white pieces, lowercase letter for black pieces, starting at the rank 8, given each row, each digit means that many vacant cells.
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03:48:38 <Sgeo> kmc: I think this discussion would interest you http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/1xw70y/tls12/
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03:52:52 <HackEgo> ballfroilcoin frabcoin korbcoin zoppcoin piecescoin lazacoin veicoin x-dcoin regocoin sendiecoin squatrovincoin cyclocoin eodecoin quatrestkindcoin gyptcoin chonalcoin lyapaschcoin anocoin chroucoin tingcoin
04:02:08 <kmc> so that thing which lets you make $0.000000078 per hour from your website visitors by making their browsers mine bitcoin is about to get sued in New Jersey http://tech.mit.edu/V134/N4/abelson.html
04:07:22 <Bike> it was actually deployed?
04:07:51 <kmc> don't know
04:08:27 <Sgeo> I am starting to appreciate Haskell's curried by default more
04:08:48 <Sgeo> Also wish Racket had less... insane curry function
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04:28:34 <kmc> currywurst is a good default
04:29:10 <Sgeo> Wish I could bring rudybot in here so I could complain about curry
04:33:07 <Sgeo> ((curry f) a b c) will NOT call f (and instead return a curry) unless the max num of arguments is reached. (((curry f) a b c) d) WILL call f unless the minimum number of arguments hasn't been reached
04:37:37 <shachaf> Taneb: I keep hearing that ZRH is very expensive.
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04:51:26 <Sgeo> http://www.twitch.tv/twitchplayspokemon
04:54:19 <Sgeo> Also, what is this 'cut' everyone talks about?
04:55:52 <zzo38> Do you mean the 'cut' move in Pokemon, or something else?
04:57:38 <Sgeo> The 'cut' move in Pokemon
04:58:05 <zzo38> It is a HM move, which can be used in or outside of battle. Outside of battle, it can cut some trees, and can cut grass too.
04:58:17 <zzo38> (They will grow back if you leave the area)
04:58:54 <Sgeo> Is it fairly simple to get?
04:59:21 <zzo38> You need an HM, a Pokemon capable of learning it, and I think you need a gym badge too.
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04:59:23 <Sgeo> Probably not as easy as ... saving ... appears to be
05:04:02 <zzo38> Does that explain it?
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05:07:44 <shachaf> can you explain this behavior:
05:08:08 <shachaf> $ echo $'a O\nai P' | sort
05:08:26 <shachaf> with LANG=C sort it sorts the other way
05:08:41 <oerjan> so what is the locale?
05:08:54 <zzo38> In fact LANG=C should *always* be the default
05:09:15 <zzo38> I always set LANG=C when working on UNIX systems
05:09:25 <oerjan> `run LANG=en_US.UTF-8 echo $'a O\nai P' | sort
05:09:45 <shachaf> `run LANG=en_US.UTF-8 echo $'a O\nax P' | sort
05:10:18 <oerjan> `run LANG=en_US.UTF-8 echo $'a O\nai N' | sort
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05:10:44 <oerjan> `run LANG=en_US.UTF-8 echo $'a Q\nai P' | sort
05:10:50 <shachaf> `run LANG=en_US.UTF-8 echo $'a A\nai B' | sort
05:11:55 <shachaf> that's much simpler than the theories i was trying to come up with
05:12:02 <oerjan> i don't see the problem, it sorts _precisely_ like [[Language_list]] hth
05:14:03 <zzo38> Perhaps a more versatile sorting system would allow two inputs so one is used as the sort key. (For example, the other input could be generated using sed)
05:14:20 <kmc> you need 'cut' to get past a certain point in the game right
05:14:27 <kmc> as well as 'surf' and maybe some others
05:14:28 <zzo38> But a UNIX pipe doesn't take two inputs.
05:14:41 <zzo38> kmc: Yes, you need 'cut' and 'surf', at least.
05:14:58 <kmc> zzo38: do you have any chess variant based on pokemon
05:15:12 <zzo38> shachaf: Pokemon game.
05:15:54 <zzo38> kmc: I once tried making some shogi variant involving pokemon somehow, but never completed it.
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05:34:28 <ais523> kmc: it depends on which Pokémon game you're talking about
05:39:12 <Sgeo> dynamic scope is... tempting, as a solution to how to fake typeclasses
05:39:32 <Sgeo> Would need to provide the scoping at each time the lens is used, but...
05:39:37 <Sgeo> erm, the parameter's value
05:42:56 <zzo38> But, I like the game of Pokemon Card, anyways; I don't have large amount of interests in the other game
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06:14:58 <HackEgo> dumpingcoin allothesscoin lestolcoin dumbscoptocoin jumecoin taxianuiardingybilitategrougheficcoin albolcoin pseudcoin infursumamcoin podanguagcriptcoin byterchacoin concallcoin chicoin barbicoin resophyrcoin schesircoin chulgcoin tamploicoin percacoin greecoin
06:16:48 <kmc> `run words --german 20 | sed -re 's/( |$)/coin\1/g'
06:16:49 <HackEgo> spezimcoin chaftensionencoin irchsmaßnahmercoin sonszusaticoin bungenencoin ivissessignifischecoin utmachofsencoin wischaldwirtsortcoin sterncoin cograrbecoin aufendescoin selcoin munischenagelcoin dasstatincoin gigenbegleichtcoin faktentmarocoin safroncoin geweichencoin vorschulspasthigkeitcoin hetendorkcoin
06:18:52 <zzo38> Now you have non-ASCII letters in it!
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06:24:35 <kmc> scheißecoin
06:27:11 <zzo38> What verb means, making someone else sleeping?
06:29:25 <Bike> sleepificating
06:29:47 <zzo38> Is that a real word?
06:36:15 <zzo38> I am trying to calculate a probablility of a deck winning/losing against a "59eye1Mewtwo" deck.
06:36:39 <ais523> zzo38: it isn't a real word
06:36:51 <zzo38> ais523: Then what is the proper word?
06:37:13 <ais523> not exactly right, but pretty close
06:38:07 <zzo38> What kinds of force?
06:38:23 <ais523> password2: not necessarily, it could also involve sleeping pills or similar
06:42:08 <password2> they are not going to sleep naturaly
06:44:15 <password2> and sedate does not always imply sleep too
06:45:01 <ais523> well at least it's a real word :-(
06:45:23 <password2> you can also say you tuck someone in
06:45:40 <password2> it depends on what you want to say obviously
06:47:15 <zzo38> I want to say to make them to sleep even if they would not ordinarily to do so in such a daytime.
06:47:35 <ais523> "tire"? that means "to make tired", which also isn't quite the same
06:47:48 <zzo38> Yes, probably "sedate" is OK
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07:20:18 <zzo38> A deck consisting of fifty-nine basic energy plus BULBASAUR [Lv15] is *guaranteed* to beat a deck consisting of fifty-nine basic energy plus MEWTWO [Lv53], even though the latter is OK in many cases (but less than 50%), and the former is pretty bad in general.
07:20:52 <zzo38> I can give you the card texts if you want them.
07:20:54 <ais523> does the bulbasaur have some protection from paralysis?
07:21:07 <ais523> by the way, it's usual to say the species and set that the card comes from, rather than species and level
07:21:10 <zzo38> ais523: No, but MEWTWO [Lv53] doesn't paralyze.
07:21:12 <ais523> because species/level can be ambiguous sometimes
07:21:18 <ais523> zzo38: oh, just blocks damage
07:21:36 <zzo38> ais523: It is ambiguous only with the newer sets, not in the original game, which is the only one I am considering.
07:22:03 <zzo38> (And, species/set can be ambiguous too, but only with some sets)
07:23:09 <zzo38> BULBASAUR [Lv15] has 5 HP and the following two attacks: - { * } RECOVER: Remove one damage from this card. - { % } POISON SEED: Defending pokemon card is poisoned.
07:23:43 <zzo38> MEWTWO [Lv53] has 6 HP and the attacks: - { @* } PSYCHIC [1+]: Add 1 damage per energy card attached to opponent's active pokemon card. - { @@ } BARRIER: You must discard one energy card attached to this card in order to use this attack. All effects of attacks (including damage) that affect this card are prevented during opponent's next turn.
07:23:51 <zzo38> Do you see how it works?
07:23:53 <ais523> and the poison effect beats mewtwo
07:24:06 <ais523> before it can get Barrier in place
07:24:38 <zzo38> Actually, the poison by itself isn't quite enough.
07:24:58 <zzo38> There are three other cards that can guarantee poison on first turn, but none of them are good enough.
07:25:21 <ais523> actually, I think the Mewtwo wins
07:25:51 <zzo38> I did consider that, and that is why WEEDLE [Lv15] and ODDISH [Lv21] lose.
07:26:21 <ais523> Mewtwo does 20 (or 2 with your notation) damage per turn: 10, plus 10 for the Grass energy that Bulbasaur attaches to be able to use Poison Seed
07:26:35 <zzo38> Yes, but you can recover!
07:27:16 <ais523> oh right, poison does 20 per turn, doesn't it
07:27:23 <ais523> because it triggers on both players' turns
07:27:32 <zzo38> Yes, it triggers on both player's turn.
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07:29:09 <zzo38> Now hopefully you can understand it.
07:30:08 <ais523> so the thing about that mewtwo deck is, why not use four mewtwo rather than one?
07:30:45 <ais523> you lose the ability to attach energy on the turn you play a mewtwo, but the opponent probably can't oneshot it
07:30:48 <ais523> so you can get back to the same situation again
07:31:25 <zzo38> I suppose it may sometimes work, but not always, and anyways that isn't the original deck.
07:31:59 <zzo38> You need to actually get the second one in time. If you do, then yes it works, in this case.
07:32:43 <zzo38> However, having four Mewtwo cards makes it worse against some other decks (those with GUST OF WIND, for example).
07:33:18 <ais523> they actually reprinted Gust of Wind recently, as Pokémon Catcher
07:33:28 <ais523> and it was one of the best cards legal in only-recent-cards-are-allowed games
07:34:15 <zzo38> OK, although I am considering only the original game. Yes it is a pretty good card.
07:34:28 <Sgeo> "the care and feeding of lenses"
07:34:32 <Sgeo> This amuses me for some reason
07:34:56 <ais523> it's better nowadays because people play so many Pokémon that have low HP but good effects from the bench
07:35:01 <ais523> and try to never let them become active
07:39:55 <Sgeo> Hmm, would I need to allow arbitrary Applicatives, or can I allow merely Identity, Const, and ... others specifically needed for lenses?
07:40:20 <zzo38> I don't like the new game much, and play the old one in either "cube constructed" format (there is a list of valid cards, and you can include up to four of any of them), or "cube draft" format (a bunch of cards are mixed up and drafted; you may then take any of them plus any number of basic energy cards to make a 60-card deck, and rules for evolution are a bit less strict).
07:40:29 <zzo38> But mostly I like the Pokemon card puzzles.
07:41:23 <zzo38> If you can make up any, please show to me; I like to see it, too.
07:43:52 <zzo38> (Note: You are allowed to include cards you do not own any copies of. This is the difference from the standard format.)
07:45:24 <zzo38> I happen to find that the tactics involved in Pokemon card (at least the original game) are extremely positional.
07:46:02 <zzo38> I don't know if you (or anyone else) agree/disagree with this statement.
08:00:05 <zzo38> I like Magic: the Gathering card puzzle too. Do you know how to buy that book?
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08:06:38 <zzo38> I usually use GUST OF WIND defensively, unless I can win on the same turn.
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08:38:53 <zzo38> Did anyone ever, in a game of chess, checkmate with a en passan move?
08:43:19 <ais523> it's possible but the conditions that can do it are very contrived
08:50:27 <zzo38> Yes, I believe that
08:53:47 <zzo38> I have seen a chess puzzle involving checkmate by en passan.
08:57:07 <Jafet> This should be easy to search for
08:58:41 <Jafet> A rarer checkmate move might be O-O-O#
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09:01:26 <Jafet> However, I cannot find an online database that allows searching by move
09:01:31 <zzo38> And that is easier to search for if you have a PGN file
09:02:05 <zzo38> I would like to have a database of chess games in SQL format; it could bein PGN, and I could then write a program to convert it into SQL so that it can be queried.
09:04:26 <zzo38> (The SQL could also be used to calculate statistics.)
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09:12:34 <zzo38> This is an easy retroanalysis problem (at least to me it is; I have solved it; apparently "everybody has already seen" it, but I haven't): 6b1/7p/8/8/8/8/8/K1k5. What did White just play?
09:14:20 <Jafet> So, I downloaded this list of 37000 tournament games, and there are 300 checkmates in it
09:15:38 <Jafet> Also there are gems like 41.g6 Nxe3 42.g7# Qxg7 43.Rxg7 Kxg7
09:17:07 <zzo38> What? Is that a typing error?
09:21:35 <Jafet> Sadly, it turned out to be a typo
09:21:40 <zzo38> Jafet: What tournaments are they, and what time periods?
09:22:03 <zzo38> Yes, I thought it must be a typo, since it can't be anything else
09:22:31 <Jafet> http://www.mark-weeks.com/chess/pgn/
09:24:13 <zzo38> Without downloading them I don't know what time-periods/tournaments; do you know which ones are in the files *you* downloaded? (I don't even know which file you downloaded, either)
09:24:37 <Jafet> I downloaded all of them
09:24:43 <ais523> zzo38: if it's Black's move, Ka1 (from a2); if it's White's move, Ka1 (from b1), then Black played Kc1 in response
09:24:51 <Jafet> So, I don't know which file it is in either
09:24:55 <ais523> I feel like I'm missing something
09:25:23 <ais523> oh, the Ka1 if it's Black's move captures a knight that just gave discovered check
09:25:27 <zzo38> Jafet: Well, do you know what time periods they span?
09:25:28 <ais523> that's probably the thing you're meant to work out
09:25:55 <zzo38> ais523: Yes, that is my solution too; the king moved from a2 to a1, capturing a knight.
09:29:46 <coppro> Someone discovered a 549-move 7-piece endgame
09:30:36 <zzo38> coppro: Really? What is that one?
09:30:56 <zzo38> Do you have the FEN or PGN?
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09:31:01 <coppro> http://timkr.home.xs4all.nl/chess2/diary.htm
09:34:50 <Bike> "These extreme positions are the outposts, the Everests or Mariana Trenches of chess’ state space: they should be hailed, visited and contemplated not only because they are there but because the lines from them can perhaps be analysed and explained in terms of some chessic principles." it's official: i don't get chess
09:41:01 <Jafet> zzo38: http://codepad.org/Yl4yEnxW I cut off some of the games and put 1/2-1/2 at the end
09:41:30 <Jafet> Most of them seem to be due to very confused players thinking that their move was a mate
09:41:46 <Jafet> Sadly, no actual mates
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09:47:26 <zzo38> Line 191 contradicts line 199.
09:48:41 <Jafet> That is one of the games that were cut off
09:52:42 <zzo38> How did it get cut off?
09:54:51 <Jafet> I did not expect lengthy continuations after a mate to be that frequent
10:00:50 <Sgeo> I _think_ that explicit rewriting macros make it easier than syntax-case to deliberately have an unhygienic symbol exposed at the ultimate use site, even when a macro has emitted a macro call. I am not certain whether this is a point in favor or against either system
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10:26:58 <Bike> that scenario sounds quite.... esoteric
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12:23:16 <oklopol_> Bike: chessic principles sounds like something someone would say if they've never tinkered with a combinatorial problem other than chess, and they've tinkered with way too much chess.
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12:24:21 <oklopol_> or maybe i just don't get chess
12:26:13 <oklopol_> but i mean how can you think that a combinatorial accident that severe in a game where each piece pretty much follows its own rules is guided by a "principle"
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12:28:12 <oklopol_> zzo38: so, you like chess variations, do you think the usual rules are somehow particularly optimal? like, say i take two pieces in the starting position and exchange them, will you get a worse game for any pair, or will it usually be just chess?
12:29:07 <oklopol_> perhaps at least exchanging a soldier with something will lead to a more aggressive game (or something stupid)
12:38:17 <quintopia> i need to go on the wiki and post things that are obvious formatting and policy errors more often. if i don't give oerjan something to fix, the wiki goes whole days without anything happening at all!
12:39:55 <ais523> you could add all the italics back into the BF Joust article so we can revert it back to the current formatting
12:40:02 <ais523> (note: don't actually do that)
12:40:32 <quintopia> what was italicized? i don't remember
12:41:25 <quintopia> i like italics. i think it improves readability when used on variable names
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12:45:11 <ais523> I don't remember either, random sentences / part of sentences, I think
12:46:13 <oklopol_> sometimes when i'm writing something i feel like using italics
12:46:23 <oklopol_> and then i realize it looks silly
12:47:10 <oklopol_> i mean if it's really important you want to emphasize it
12:47:37 <oklopol_> maybe i should use colors instead
12:47:55 <quintopia> try bangs! they are great for emphasis! and if the info is surprising, try interrobangs too!
12:48:08 <oklopol_> like 50 different shades of gray that tell you how erotic the sentence is
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12:49:44 <quintopia> black on black = "so hardcore, we had to turn the lights off while it was happening to save our sanity"
12:50:29 <quintopia> super secksy; highlight at your own risk!
12:52:35 <quintopia> don't worry, it was your uncle, not your mom
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14:09:40 <Slereah__> I am wondering about making a quantum computin' esolang
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14:11:10 <Slereah__> Possibly some Befunge like structure
14:12:25 <ais523> even "regular" quantum programs are an esolang
14:12:49 <Slereah__> Maybe in the future, they won't be~
14:12:58 <Slereah__> High school kids will learn about quantum java
14:14:50 <ais523> now I'm wondering whether to hope quantum PHP is never invented
14:14:58 <ais523> or to hope that it is invented so I can see what sort of disaster it is
14:15:06 <ais523> I think I'll go for "invented, but nobody uses it"
14:15:24 <Slereah__> If you crash it it will destroy the entire universe!
14:15:49 <ais523> Slereah__: the destroy_the_universe function is implemented so as to be able to quantum bogosort, I take it?
14:15:59 <ais523> also because the name's long enough to avoid hash collisions
14:16:16 <Slereah__> Quantum bogosort sounds like a good test program for my quantum computer
14:16:30 <ais523> (PHP's original hash function was mostly based on strlen)
14:16:37 <Slereah__> I guess a quantum befunge kind of thing would go well with my recent learning of object oriented things
14:17:42 <Slereah__> No, but I can't be arsed to write it entirely in C
14:18:49 <Slereah__> I guess I'll just try some particle beams, quantum gates and detectors
14:26:11 <Slereah__> Though I wonder if I can also work in some less artificial quantum states
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14:26:23 <Slereah__> Like just defining an actual wavefunction in a box
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14:41:45 <oklopol_> every instruction gives a superposition of 2-10 types of undefined behavior
14:42:48 <oklopol_> i don't actually know if php is notorious for undefined behavior; instead, perhaps the instructions give a superposition of different behavior just because they provide so many built-in functions they run out of words
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17:22:30 <Bike> oklopol_: exactly
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18:43:30 <Sgeo> Racketers are having trouble understanding fmap not in terms of 'elements'
18:46:54 <nys> damn racketers
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18:59:23 <FreeFull> Sgeo: Racket doesn't have a fmap that works on, say, functions?
19:01:17 <Sgeo> How many non-Haskell languages do you know provide a generic map that is as generic as Haskell's fmap?
19:01:51 <kmc> scala prolly
19:01:55 <HackEgo> zeicoin arbokucoin unreacoin thisesocoin haylcoin wakecoin nahcoin @!coin regxcoin limbcoin catemprocoin impcoin bulocoin pouilcoin symespeaseacoin nancoin ver2coin mailcoin fanjcoin treadacoin
19:02:42 <Sgeo> FreeFull: person tried to derive count based on fmap. When I asked what happens when used on a function, they said that fmap should not be lazy
19:02:49 <Sgeo> Racket logs are public
19:03:00 <Sgeo> <mithos28> (fmap f c) should call f over every element in c before returning
19:03:01 <Sgeo> <mithos28> if it doesn't and calls f later, f may be called in a different dynamic environment
19:03:01 <Sgeo> <mithos28> for certain functions this would change the behavior, i.e. one that wrote to standard out
19:03:15 <Sgeo> (This is after I attempted to describe fmap)
19:04:30 <Bike> should be e.g., not i.e.. that's what's important here
19:04:33 <Sgeo> FreeFull: e tried to, by passing fmap a function to imperatively update a variable
19:07:40 <HackEgo> olist 945: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily
19:11:49 <FireFly> Oops, I somehow forgot to read 944 entirely
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19:24:41 <zzo38> oklopol_: This is a late response, but I don't know if the standard starting position of chess is optimal or not. You can play with random setups if you like.
19:25:52 <Sgeo> I'm half convinced that the whole functor thing is kind of a red herring
19:28:10 <Sgeo> lol qntm now has a new comment box that basically tells you the answer for the hint
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19:41:32 <FireFly> http://www.twitch.tv/twitchplayspokemon
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19:55:13 <nortti> http://wikitravel.org/en/Hell_%28Hades%29
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20:39:59 <kmc> zzo38: the SEP article on neutral monism is quite long
20:40:05 <kmc> i don't quite understand why there are so many things to say about it
20:40:11 <kmc> i guess this is what philosophers do for a living, though
20:40:20 <zzo38> kmc: Yes, I think so.
20:40:46 <zzo38> That is why, I can understand that philosophy can involve a lot of things to say about something.
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20:41:02 <zzo38> So, there really is many things to say about it, but also many things to think about it, too!
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21:25:26 <HackEgo> dotercoin shakercoin libergeomcoin polispcoin cobullcoin cusiccoin parnecoin closopcoin aawacoin ballecoin deliticoin sockcoin oftcoin adgoibcoin ylolmcoin toadsknowellocoin foberwmcoin lesscoin gingcoin ycoin
21:25:49 <kmc> neutralmonismcoin
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21:56:31 <kmc> hi JWinslow23
21:56:53 -!- nisstyre has joined.
21:56:55 <JWinslow23> Been a while since I've been here last.
21:59:29 <fizzie> JWinslow23: grep says you visited briefly on 2014-01-12.
21:59:43 <fizzie> (Before that, 2013-10-30.)
22:00:26 <fizzie> For a calculator programming discussion, apparently.
22:00:44 <JWinslow23> Yeah, to tell you all that I'm going off the grid.
22:01:07 <fizzie> So you've joined ##calculators, then. (Disclaimer: channel might not exist.)
22:01:12 <JWinslow23> Hey, what were the bots we had here, anyway?
22:01:21 <fungot> fizzie: and that's another matter) still have souls! cvs: there is a source file, so that we know about the
22:01:58 <JWinslow23> Fungot? Really? A close-paren without an open one?
22:02:13 <shachaf> fungot is above matching parentheses
22:02:13 <fungot> shachaf: i.. i ended up with fun round-trips to uucp-land like this on unix: celibacy. what useful protection! how nice to find a way
22:02:19 <fizzie> The Perl version balances punctuation. (For the Funge-98 version, it's still on the TODO list.)
22:02:35 <fungot> JWinslow23: now how did that once and then come here to talk very much like c.
22:02:47 <fungot> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, jconn ) , blsqbot !
22:03:04 <fizzie> A couple of those aren't present, though.
22:03:39 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/quine: 2: cd: can't cd to /var/irclogs/_esoteric \ ls: cannot access ????-??-??.txt: No such file or directory
22:03:55 <fizzie> It's having some... issues, related to a server move.
22:04:01 <fizzie> Missing the logs, for one thing.
22:04:29 <HackEgo> Failed to connect to socket 2. \ \ Looking up 127.0.0.1:3128 \ Making HTTP connection to 127.0.0.1:3128 \ Sending HTTP request. \ HTTP request sent; waiting for response. \ Alert!: Unexpected network read error; connection aborted. \ Can't Access `http://google.com/search?q=define:%71%75%69%6e%65%20%60%71%75%69%6e%65' \ Alert!: Unable to access do
22:04:50 <nortti> `run paste `which define`
22:04:51 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip//hackenv/bin/define
22:04:56 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: type: not found
22:05:03 <HackEgo> define is /hackenv/bin/define
22:05:24 <fizzie> It's the "use Google to define a word" thing, also broken due to the web proxy not being in place.
22:07:02 <fizzie> You'd probably write a script in bin/x, then. But I'm not sure replacing bin/quine would be necessary, I'm sure the logs will come back some day.
22:07:21 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
22:07:52 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: JWinslow23: not found
22:08:14 <JWinslow23> I think I used to be "someone who doesn't give a BF" at one point.
22:08:51 <fizzie> That's part of the learndb thing.
22:08:52 <HackEgo> JWinslow23 is a Wisconsinite who doesn't give a BF.
22:09:37 <HackEgo> Linux umlbox 3.13.0-umlbox #1 Wed Jan 29 12:56:45 UTC 2014 x86_64 GNU/Linux
22:09:41 <tswett> `cat /proc/self/uid_map
22:09:42 <HackEgo> cat: /proc/self/uid_map: No such file or directory
22:09:58 <tswett> Gregor: HEY, PUT USER NAMESPACES ON HackEgo RIGHT THE FUCK IMMEDIATELY thanks
22:10:38 <FireFly> The places where 'the fuck' could be used continues to surprise me
22:12:58 <tswett> FireFly: well, I guess the fuck it is an expletive.
22:13:20 <tswett> Of course the fuck, you can't just stick it anywhere.
22:13:50 <tswett> Can you put it before the fuck *any* stressed word?
22:14:01 <tswett> Looks the fuck like no.
22:14:48 <tswett> Maybe you can put the fuck it after any verb. Nope. But you the fuck can say "Maybe you can put it the fuck after any verb".
22:15:04 <tswett> The fuck before any prepositional phrase, perhaps?
22:15:14 <JWinslow23> http://img.ourl.ca/TwitterGrammarCheck1
22:15:18 <FireFly> Wait, I've seen a blog post about this..
22:15:19 <tswett> "I have the ability to go through time, I suddenly remembered while the fuck at a bus stop the fuck near a tree."
22:15:33 <JWinslow23> http://img.ourl.ca/TwitterGrammarCheck1.png
22:16:50 <FireFly> Oh right, http://douglemoine.com/english-sentences-without-overt-grammatical-subjects/
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22:41:36 <Bike> https://www.kickstarter.com/blog/important-kickstarter-security-notice he he
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23:03:36 <Taneb> My copy of Purely Functional Data Structures arrived :D
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23:31:20 <oerjan> <-- well since an impure language cannot really distinguish between the haskell concepts "fmap" and "traverse in the IO monad", he probably can, in a sense.
23:31:34 <oerjan> * <Sgeo> FreeFull: e tried to, by passing fmap a function to imperatively update a variable
23:31:44 <Bike> gonna traverse the fuck out of this shit
23:33:03 <quintopia> helloerjan. did i miss anything good when my server hung?
23:34:00 <FreeFull> oerjan: It feels wrong though ):
23:34:14 <oerjan> FreeFull: THAT'S IMPURE LANGUAGES FOR YOU
23:34:24 <oerjan> quintopia: no idea, i just joined
23:34:28 <Bike> death to the impure
23:36:49 <newsham> /* this function traverses in the io monad */
23:36:53 <FreeFull> Imagine doing the same in Haskell with unsafePerformIO
23:37:05 <FreeFull> You'd have to sequence all the elements of the list though
23:37:33 <quintopia> obviously nothing interesting happened before you arrived
23:38:03 <FreeFull> So you'd need a generic Foldable anyway, and by that point a non-pure solution doesn't make sense anyway
23:38:25 <newsham> /* this is a join for a monoid in the category of endofunctors */
23:38:34 <oerjan> quintopia: well you're not subscribed to the `olist anyway
23:39:41 <oerjan> well that's as far as i've got yet
23:40:10 <oerjan> i sense a significant number of further log lines in the scrollbar, though
23:41:07 <oerjan> also why i am i speaking like vaarsuvius
23:41:41 -!- Frooxius has joined.
23:52:25 -!- yorick has joined.
23:54:42 <FireFly> oerjan: you haven't comitted familicide recently, have you?