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00:49:51 <Sgeo> https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/lofi/four-sided-fantasy-a-game-about-the-limits-of-the
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01:43:26 <zzo38> Hofstadter's book mentions BlooP, which has only loops limited by the number calculated ahead of time, and FlooP, which adds "MU-LOOPS", which the limit doesn't need to be known ahead of time. SQL has only the first kind, which is sometimes insufficient.
01:49:05 <kmc> can SQLite's WITH RECURSIVE do the latter?
01:49:38 <copumpkin> in postgres a recursive CTE can do arbitrary things, I think
01:49:51 <copumpkin> which I assume sqlite is implementing too
01:49:55 <zzo38> kmc: Yes, although only for read-data, not for calling triggers and so on.
01:50:26 <zzo38> (Also, the RECURSIVE keyword is optional and doesn't do anything; it is there for compatibility and to remind you if you need reminding.)
01:52:55 <zzo38> When inserting into a view with triggers attached (it is an error to insert into a view without triggers attached), the SELECT statement is first run completely before the trigger is fired even once, so if a recursive WITH clause in the SELECT statement giving the data to insert results in an infinite number of result rows, it will run out of memory before the trigger is fired.
01:54:22 <zzo38> I have written an extension to add new syntax such as CREATE FUNCTION, CREATE MACRO, CREATE NAMESPACE, CREATE COLLATION, but cannot quite figure out how to add a proper syntax for traps and "mu-loops" which are usable inside of trigger programs.
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02:45:18 <Sgeo> :( how much of the web runs on JSONP?
02:49:40 <Sgeo> I refuse. I'd rather use an invisible iframe if it comes down to it. Which it is.
02:52:07 <Bike> sgeo will die on this hill
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04:16:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[EsoAPI]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39467&oldid=31127 * Sprocklem * (+13)
04:18:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[EsoAPI]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39468&oldid=39467 * Sprocklem * (-13) Undo revision 39467 by [[Special:Contributions/Sprocklem|Sprocklem]] ([[User talk:Sprocklem|talk]])
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07:11:57 <kmc> http://assbaka.tumblr.com/post/84284936715/a-leucistic-red-winged-blackbird
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07:28:27 <oerjan> someone really wants us to be artists https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Esoteric_programming_language&curid=53398&diff=607370289&oldid=605551525
07:29:29 <oerjan> well yes, but that section still makes me slightly embarassed.
07:29:41 <oerjan> i suppose it will pass.
07:30:26 <slereah_> That guy will discover some new hip thing to brag about
07:30:34 <slereah_> And he will forget all about esolangs
07:30:51 <oerjan> yeah but then he'll have to make a new nick!
07:30:58 <coppro> oerjan: re: theenemysgate.ca I like that idea
07:31:23 <oerjan> i don't remember what that was
07:31:50 <oerjan> Gregor: fix HackEgo's log access please ;_;
07:33:54 <oerjan> coppro: are you sure i'm the right person, i vaguely remember that domain name but it's not in my browser log afaict...
07:34:00 <elliott> oerjan: the cited pressey article is better than the entire section, of course
07:35:13 <olsner> coppro: I think that could have been ion
07:37:27 <oerjan> it might help if coppro quoted people properly twh hth
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07:50:01 <coppro> <lambdabot> oerjan asked 1d 21h 54m 48s ago: <coppro> I should register theenemysgate.ca and point it to an IP address that doesn't have a server <-- what about a server that responds to pings, but _nothing_ else twh
07:50:24 <coppro> i should just ignore messages matching ^<.oerjan>.*h$
07:52:53 <oerjan> i blame the mind control rays for wiping my memory hth
07:53:29 <oerjan> wait does that mean coppro cannot see this twh
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10:07:32 <oerjan> > replicateM 2 [True,False]
10:07:33 <lambdabot> [[True,True],[True,False],[False,True],[False,False]]
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10:26:58 <FireFly> Is true/false guaranteed to correspond to 1/0 in C?
10:30:58 <lambdabot> System.IO hFlush :: Handle -> IO ()
10:30:58 <lambdabot> GHC.IO.Handle hFlush :: Handle -> IO ()
10:30:58 <lambdabot> GHC.IO.Handle hFlushAll :: Handle -> IO ()
10:33:01 <FireFly> "Each of the operators yields 1 if the specified relation is true and 0 if it is false" okay
10:34:17 <mhi^> FireFly: Yes. ;)
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10:35:00 <FireFly> mhi^: huh, I didn't know you were in here
10:35:31 <mhi^> FireFly: Someone must have edited my auto-join list!
10:35:44 <mhi^> FireFly: Seriously, I joined ~2 weeks ago, I think.
10:36:39 * FireFly is convinced all channels he's in on freenode will eventually converge
10:37:17 <mhi^> FireFly's law of IRC.
10:37:36 <Taneb> FireFly, does that apply to channels you aren't in?
10:39:57 <Taneb> Although yes, I think the only channel I'm in that doesn't have people I'm not in other channels with is #dwarffortress
10:42:23 <Taneb> That is, you can draw a sort of graph of channels I'm in and there are other people in multiple channels I'm in
10:42:37 <Taneb> And that's the only disconnected one
10:46:04 <oerjan> but are there isolated clusters?
10:47:19 * oerjan tries to remember if that rail compiler guy has been on the channel.
10:49:05 <oerjan> imagine if we had, like, a way to search the channel logs...
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10:50:59 <oerjan> AnotherTest: hm have you been away for a while?
10:51:24 <oerjan> my memory is not working any more and it's all Gregor's fault
10:53:05 <HackEgo> bin/anonlog \ bin/etymology \ bin/log \ bin/logurl \ bin/pastalog \ bin/pastelog \ bin/pastelogs \ bin/pastlog \ bin/randomanonlog \ bin/searchlog
10:53:44 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/bin/etymology
10:56:56 <oerjan> FireFly: bin/ is not where the problem resides hth
10:57:06 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/log: 2: cd: can't cd to /var/irclogs/_esoteric \ grep: ????-??-??.txt: No such file or directory
11:00:03 <FireFly> I was just curious roughly how many log-related commands we have that broke because of it
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12:40:27 <HackEgo> id: --context (-Z) works only on an SELinux-enabled kernel
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13:16:12 <ion> Vi Hart on Net neutrality http://youtu.be/NAxMyTwmu_M
14:00:44 <fizzie> The person in the next row spent most of the plenary playing 2048 on her phone.
14:01:44 <Jafet> Neutral to the talk
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14:18:28 <int-e> fizzie: did they win?
14:38:13 <fizzie> I don't think so. I wasn't concentrating on it, though.
15:05:57 <Taneb> `unicode MULTIOCULAR O
15:05:58 <HackEgo> U+A66E CYRILLIC LETTER MULTIOCULAR O \ UTF-8: ea 99 ae UTF-16BE: a66e Decimal: ꙮ \ ꙮ \ Category: Lo (Letter, Other) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right)
15:09:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Zero]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39469&oldid=39466 * Tailcalled * (-134) brainderp
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17:16:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Zero]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=39470 * GreyKnight * (+641) Created page with "== clarification needed == My questions: * what constitues "correct grammar" of a pseudoprogram? * does the Halting sequence represent only grammatically-correct pseudoprogram..."
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18:11:58 <Slereah> Can you write a simple exponential function if you use non-floating points functions?
18:13:50 <Bike> of course you can write exp for other representations.
18:14:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Zero]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39471&oldid=39470 * Oerjan * (+846) My guesses etc.
18:14:58 <Slereah> I am just wondering if there is one that doesn't require some long ass series representation
18:15:31 <oerjan> the series for exp is about as simple as they come.
18:15:46 <Slereah> True, but they don't use that one!
18:16:17 <Slereah> It converges way too slowly and only around a particular point
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18:16:49 <oerjan> well it's faster the closer you are to that point.
18:17:08 <Slereah> The implementations I've seen usually use the Remez algorithm
18:17:09 <Bike> no, slereah's right, the taylor series really isn't adequate. actual implementations use other polynomials
18:17:29 <Bike> honestly, polynomials are pretty simple, though
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18:17:44 <Slereah> I am just wondering if you can
18:18:14 <Slereah> Unfortunately it is not Ork arithmetics
18:18:48 <Bike> you could use the iterated log representation and define exp as adding one to the exp tower
18:19:07 * oerjan hasn't actually played WH40K but he's visited the wiki
18:19:31 <Bike> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symmetric_level-index_arithmetic it's actually used! almost sorta)
18:20:24 <Bike> more practically there's http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gal%27s_accurate_tables and a bunch of other shit i imagine
18:20:48 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table-maker%27s_dilemma#The_table-maker.27s_dilemma on the other hand
18:25:55 <Slereah> I also wonder if having a fraction type might be useful for precision
18:26:13 <Slereah> Though I suppose the risk is having 1000/2000 for 1/2
18:26:44 <Slereah> But you could reduce to common denominators if it overflows I guess
18:28:15 <nortti> scheme actually has fraction type, iirc
18:28:48 <oerjan> i think if you try to use a fraction type with series you'll overflow even the reduced term pretty fast.
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18:29:52 <Slereah> Do any languages use some totally symbolic representations for math?
18:29:57 <Slereah> Outside of Mathematica, I guess
18:30:01 <nortti> what if the fraction type is stored as 2xbigint
18:30:10 <Bike> most lisps have a rational type, yes
18:30:13 <Bike> and it's basically 2 bigints
18:30:22 <oerjan> nortti: then you'll eventually run out of memory.
18:30:24 <Slereah> At least for the duration of the computation
18:30:37 <Slereah> And then apply arithmetic rules to it
18:30:39 <Bike> and it reduces fractions so there's no risk s mentioned
18:30:49 <Bike> Slereah: yeah, sure.
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18:31:01 <Bike> here's one http://www.haible.de/bruno/MichaelStoll/reals.html
18:31:04 <oerjan> note that if you add n fractions with relatively prime denominators, the new denominator is the product of all of them...
18:31:38 <Bike> well, i suppose haskell CReal or whatever does that too
18:31:45 <Slereah> oerjan : but is that different from fixed point reals
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18:32:19 <oerjan> Slereah: well fixed point reals will lose precision instead...
18:32:20 <Bike> also, for totally different ways to compute exp, you could simulate the ODE for a while, that would be fun and implausible
18:32:45 <oerjan> although not as much for addition i guess
18:32:52 <Bike> and for different representation you could use http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euler%27s_continued_fraction_formula#The_exponential_function ~
18:33:29 <Bike> so many ridiculous possibilities.
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18:34:02 <Slereah> Markov did a neat little paper on ways to represent computable real numbers
18:34:33 <Bike> markov the younger, or what
18:34:34 <Slereah> He did it as three µ-recursive functions, f(x) - g(x) / h(x)
18:35:07 <Bike> oh right markov the younger worked in computability, i totally forgot
18:36:06 <Bike> oh, and schonhage, i.e. /that/ schonhage, does stuff with complexity of analytics http://www.iai.uni-bonn.de/~schoe/topics.html
18:36:30 <Bike> for a usual positional representation, of course
18:37:12 <Slereah> I like how matrix multiplication has some very "fast" algorithms
18:37:28 <Slereah> But they are so ridiculously overcharged with calculations that they are basically never useful
18:38:08 <Bike> well, schonhage multiplication (of scalars, not matrices) /is/ actually practical for some numbers
18:38:33 <Bike> for when you have, like, numbers that are 3 KB long, but that's not too bad :V
18:38:57 <Slereah> How often do you have numbers 3 kB long
18:39:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Zero]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39472&oldid=39471 * Tailcalled * (+556) /* clarification needed */
18:39:19 <Bike> me? never. but it's in GMP!!
18:39:36 <lambdabot> 1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000...
18:39:40 <Bike> wow why did i think k was capitalized...
18:39:55 <Bike> "Applications of the Schönhage–Strassen algorithm include mathematical empiricism, such as the Great Internet Mersenne Prime Search and computing approximations of π, as well as practical applications such as Kronecker substitution, in which multiplication of polynomials with integer coefficients can be efficiently reduced to large integer multiplication"
18:40:31 <Bike> mathematical empiricism is so great. the polynomials for bifurcation constants own
18:40:31 <Slereah> At least the fast matrix multiplication is useful if the matrix is a few thousand entries wide
18:40:54 <Bike> yeah, i work with big matrices at work. linear algebra's too useful.
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19:36:13 <ion> http://whitneymusicbox.org/index.php?var=v0
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19:46:33 <FreeFull> Slereah: The situation where you can end up with faster matrix exponentiation than multiplication
20:04:22 <olsner> eat the cookie, Taneb, eat it
20:05:09 <int-e> or just the usual harmless but annoying tracking device?
20:13:22 <int-e> but that doesn't really answer the question
20:14:11 * int-e mines himself some paranoiacoins.
20:14:46 <HackEgo> 0x3coin djtcoin bagdalcoin bubnccoin wiecoin hevecoin brzelcoin ihaxcoin mesheencoin minicoin >coin cheminicoin prolamcoin carumcoin zetarcoin nehuntumcoin nuishcoin siminingcoin msgcoin brocoin
20:15:08 <olsner> zetarcoin is almost metarcoin
20:23:15 <fizzie> There seemed to be no traps at that Google recruiting event I talked about previously.
20:23:35 <fizzie> There seemed to be no recruiting to speak of going on either, on the other hand.
20:25:49 <oerjan> fizzie: are you sure you're not still there, inside a virtual reality room
20:26:23 <fizzie> I guess they're concentrating that more on their stand at the conference, but it makes me wonder if the event had much of a purpose. Though I guess purely by accident there must've been a couple recruiting-related Googler/non-Googler interactions.
20:26:40 <fizzie> I'm not sure of that, but at least the view was nice.
20:26:55 <olsner> overt recruitment might trigger defensive responses
20:27:30 <fizzie> Ah, so they're just being sneaky and underhanded.
20:28:02 <fizzie> The stuffed droids looked sympathetic, I give them that.
20:28:37 <int-e> fizzie: no parachute required?
20:29:00 <int-e> as I recall you were making plans for an emergency exit
20:29:09 <fizzie> No, I just took the elevator down. Assuming I ever left. (Cf. oerjan)
20:29:12 <int-e> or people made them for you, my memory is hazy on that point :)
20:29:50 <fizzie> I did speak to two Google people, but of quite inconsequential topics.
20:30:42 <olsner> FireFly: you'll have to wait for metasepia and/or boily
20:32:40 <fizzie> Sorry, either there are no data available for your request or you did not enter any valid ICAO airport abbreviations
20:33:28 <fizzie> COIN is the name of the "centre of excellence" (a funding-related construct) I worked for, or possibly still do.
20:33:57 <fizzie> It's an acronym (or at least approximately), but I forget what it stands for.
20:34:04 <fizzie> The word "inverse" was in there somewhere.
20:34:19 <olsner> centre of inverse non-excellence?
20:34:53 <fizzie> "The Finnish Centre of Excellence in Computational Inference Research (COIN) --"
20:35:04 <fizzie> COmputational INference, I guess.
20:35:23 <fizzie> Mputation and co-mputation.
20:35:32 <int-e> Hmm, Interferences Research
20:36:02 <fizzie> And I see it didn't even have "inverse" in the name.
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20:38:31 <fizzie> Ohhh. The "Centre of Excellence in Inverse Problems" is a separate CoE, and it doesn't have an acronym. V. confusing.
20:39:28 <int-e> Cabal Of Interfering Numismatists
20:39:28 <fizzie> INPR probably sounded too silly.
20:39:54 <oerjan> they'd think it was a myers-briggs classification.
20:40:22 <fizzie> Is it a valid one? I always forget the letters.
20:40:48 <oerjan> no, there is no R and the P goes last.
20:40:59 <fizzie> One of them should be T/F, I guess.
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20:43:51 <fizzie> Introvert-intuitive-programmed-random, perhaps.
20:44:55 <coppro> weird: when someone mentions a number of big names in your field and they are Mystic Amazing Mathematician #1, Mystic Amazing Mathematician #2, and the guy I took a course from last year
20:56:40 <oerjan> coppro: has your guy ever been seen together with Mystic Amazing Mathematician #3 ?
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20:58:02 <coppro> oerjan: I'm pretty sure it's his secret identity
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21:14:03 <fizzie> Incidentally, can any of you folks (no need for more than one or two answers) DNS-resolve zem.fi? It works from my university shell account, but not from this hotel, nor via Google's 220.127.116.11, yet doing it with dig manually (@a.fi zem.fi ns and so on) seems just fine.
21:14:27 <fizzie> Perhaps I did something wrong w.r.t. DNSSEC key expiration.
21:14:31 <Bike> i can even see your ltree.
21:14:41 <elliott> 18.104.22.168 via my router
21:15:10 <fizzie> I think I read from somewhere that 22.214.171.124 does DNSSEC these days.
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21:17:15 <fizzie> Oh yes, those RRSIGs have expiration times today. I think I tried to tell them not to do that.
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