00:06:13 Nobody on #sqlite channel knows how to answer my question how to fix it so that, it is possible to use savepoint inside of a INSTEAD OF trigger program and to rename views and other stuff. 00:06:25 -!- MoALTz_ has joined. 00:07:59 -!- tromp has joined. 00:08:57 -!- MoALTz has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 00:21:22 I am typing in session 51 of Dungeons&Dragons game, for now. 00:22:46 In the D&D game I am playing the entire party of 5 people is completely split 00:23:04 That is certainly possible, and sometimes very useful. 00:23:04 Two of us, including my character, have been arrested 00:23:11 For what? 00:23:32 Possession of some sort of superweapon 00:23:52 And antagonizing an empire 00:24:37 My character once did get arrested...on purpose. 00:26:03 This was very much not on purpose 00:26:21 (I knew I would be let out in time, and there were other reasons and things too, including the phase of the moon.) 00:26:33 It was quite surprising that 3 of the party managed to get away 00:26:41 When playing at D&D, you have to take advantage of the phase of the moon. 00:27:03 One by pretending to be blind and so harmless (his character is actually blind but it isn't a hindrance) 00:27:28 One by using a carpet as a moving wall to shelter himself from arrows 00:28:07 And one by teleporting through a very small hole in the ceiling onto the roof 00:31:03 zzo38, any advice for getting out of jail in D&D? 00:31:07 I have once managed to escape by replacing a door with its mirror image, stealing a wizard's wand, secretly giving it back to him, and stuff... 00:31:21 Taneb: I cannot say, since it depends a lot on the exact circumstances. 00:31:46 I'll have to figure it out myself 00:32:12 I don't think the rest of the party will rescue me (it would be out of character for them) 00:32:15 You may just have to wait; even if you can do other things, sometimes that is the best way anyways. 00:33:07 I've got the impression that if I wait I will eventually be executed or at least skinned alive 00:33:17 Neither of which are ideal 00:33:22 Then don't wait too much! 00:33:35 I think my best bet will be to talk my way out 00:33:37 Do you have the way to write letters? 00:33:46 The pen is mightier than a sword, so use a pen! 00:33:57 :D 00:34:03 That may be the best option 00:34:10 My character does have quite high charisma 00:34:32 (That's what I did; not to get out of jail though, but to convince someone to do something while I was in jail.) 00:36:56 High charisma is not enough. You also need a paper to write on! 00:37:27 Yeah, that may be an issue 00:37:39 I will also need some form of writing implement 00:38:26 At one point, I wanted to tell something to someone in a house which I did not want to go near, and I had no pen or paper, but I did have a book, so I searched the book for a phrase similar enough to what I wanted to say, tore it out, tied it to a rock, and threw it through the window. 00:38:52 Of course, if nothing else works, try using magic if you have any. 00:42:57 static int bogo_comp( const void *a, const void *b ) { return rand() % 3 - 1; } 00:43:00 qsort( deck, n_cards, sizeof(int), bogo_comp ); 00:43:08 cute 00:44:38 nooodl: Is that like "ORDER BY RANDOM()" in a SQL program? 00:45:13 it might be! depending on the sort ORDER BY performs 00:45:27 i don't think this is a veeery good shuffle though 00:47:50 I think ORDER BY will perform the same sort as if the value specified is an extra column of the table, then sort by that fake extra column. 00:51:11 -!- idris-bot has joined. 00:53:03 oerjan: answered 00:59:19 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 01:00:17 -!- nooodl_ has joined. 01:03:54 -!- nooodl has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 01:19:52 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:34:29 Grr why doesn't Pharo come with Symbol>>asBlock? 01:34:46 -!- MoALTz__ has joined. 01:37:08 -!- MoALTz_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 01:39:22 thats a ruby hack 01:41:03 -!- Bike has joined. 01:53:19 is it UB to give qsort a comparison function that isn't a total order 01:54:34 shouldn't it only have to be partial? 01:54:35 rust has separate Eq and TotalEq, Ord and TotalOrd 01:54:41 and much controversy over where floats fit into this 01:54:44 is there PreOrd 01:54:46 no 01:54:55 well what's the fucking point them 01:54:57 then 01:55:02 i need a whole hierarchy of ordinals! 01:56:38 Probably no less defined than rand is 01:57:05 hm, do normal sorting algorithms work with partial orders? 01:57:18 "work" 01:57:36 Most of them will do something and then terminate 01:57:43 wow 01:57:54 such turing machine, very halting 01:58:03 informative helpful answer a++ 01:58:22 kmc: Actually, there is case where I would find such a thing helpful, to use sorting with partial ordering. 01:59:40 What's PreOrd? 02:00:44 are partial orders the same thing as transitive DAGs? 02:01:12 Partial orders are same thing as a thin category. 02:01:57 Sgeo: a preorder. 02:03:42 Is there a thing such as logic without free variables? 02:03:55 I believe I can figure out how to do it. 02:05:15 combinatory? 02:08:05 What do you mean by that? 02:11:36 * Sgeo wonders how PetitParser compares to Parsec 02:12:03 I vaguely recall something saying that PetitParser includes parser combinators, but also has something that avoids some pitfall? 02:12:22 "Instead it uses a unique combination of four alternative parser methodologies: scannerless parsers, parser combinators, parsing expression grammars and packrat parsers." 02:13:26 I know about recursive descent parsers 02:13:30 I don't know what is packrat parsers 02:14:39 Wikipedia article about "packrat parser" redirected to "parsing expression grammar". 02:16:16 fungot parser 02:16:16 kmc: bzip2 is slow, of course. 02:16:21 fungot: of course. 02:16:22 kmc: the cable doesn't bother me. lisp is shorter. people usually call " porting" gambit's web server? :) i'm implementing the cursors inside these structures partially with the postgresql c library. however, major dissidence isn't usually likely to be overtly malicious than to ddos :) 02:16:31 ^style 02:16:32 Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube 02:18:48 -!- canaima_ has joined. 02:19:28 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:20:04 -!- tromp has joined. 02:20:16 -!- canaima_ has quit (Client Quit). 02:24:02 zzo38: i mean that the idea behind combinatory logic was "hey can we do lambda calculus w/o variables" 02:24:38 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 02:24:47 Bike: Yes, I can see that, but it isn't what I meant. 02:25:31 I mean that you still have variables, but only quantified variables. 02:27:32 isn't that the norm 02:27:46 The Wikipedia article about sequent calculus mentions the restrictions on the use of free and quantified variables; this can be avoided by not having any free variables. 02:29:39 The "forall R" and "exist L" rules would be changed, by instead of a free variable "y" made up above the line, it would make up a unique "free atom", which is one not allow to use anywhere else; each usage of the rule makes up a new one and it isn't an atom mentioned elsewhere in the sequent above the line. 03:05:43 -!- ^v has joined. 03:19:56 -!- nooodl_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 03:22:49 -!- shikhin has joined. 03:27:17 -!- tromp has joined. 03:38:51 -!- Sorella has quit (Quit: It is tiem!). 03:44:08 A lot of people don't believe me that in SQL, savepoints would be much more useful if allowed inside of a trigger program. 03:46:04 Fuck continuation-based web development 03:46:32 Sgeo: What? 03:46:59 This site is practically unusable: http://bugs.pharo.org/ 03:47:28 Try navigating to a bug, then figuring out how to share a link with a friend 03:49:00 That is terrible 03:49:14 http://bugs.pharo.org/issues/register/id/2058?_k=t5FQ1yAmItNRJSof let's see 03:49:55 Bike: open that in an incognito window 03:50:02 http://bugs.pharo.org/issues/register/id/7627?_k=LAzNiBTJSnR_WP0l 03:50:08 oo werid 03:51:59 That is not the point of URLs and if you do not want URL of each file, don't use a webpage at all and just make a telnet or whatever. 03:58:35 How do you mess up a bug tracker that badly? 03:59:28 `addquote That is not the point of URLs and if you do not want URL of each file, don't use a webpage at all and just make a telnet or whatever. 03:59:29 1194) That is not the point of URLs and if you do not want URL of each file, don't use a webpage at all and just make a telnet or whatever. 04:00:26 pikhq: it's an anonymous frontend to a login-required bug tracker 04:04:58 Sgeo: What is the point of that? 04:05:20 Of the horrible URLs, or of the site? 04:05:28 It's good to not need to login to view bugs 04:05:29 Of an anonymous frontend to a login-required bug tracker. 04:05:52 In the way that that one is done. 04:07:04 Pretty sure the use case is independent from the poor implementation choice 04:07:06 I blame Seaside 04:07:51 I think continuations have their uses in web development, but... not for this. Maybe during checking something out from an ecommerce site, or a password reset flow (although with the latter, need to be sure some idiot doesn't send the URL to a friend) 04:07:57 (well, with both) 04:08:24 I think such thing is just all wrong. 04:09:54 I assume this is not as terrible even though it's similar in development style 04:09:55 http://www.impredicative.com/ur/demo/counter.html 04:09:59 The URLs are much cleaner somehow 04:10:04 But also easy to tamper with 04:10:08 Don't use webpages if you don't want their kind of state transactions; use them for non-interactive sessions instead. Interactive stuff can be including IRC, telnet, SSH, etc (and even block-oriented terminals, if necessary) 04:10:37 http://www.impredicative.com/ur/demo/Demo/Counter/main 04:11:12 You can use an entirely stateless stuff if you need to, as well, which saves a lot of problem, too. 04:11:24 You don't need any cookie either, then. 04:11:31 zzo38: sadly, users expect websites 04:11:49 You can make websites with stateless stuff too though 04:12:34 Resetting a password seems tricky to do without some sort of state, unless you like messing with encryption 04:13:03 hmm, bad example, I'm only really familiar with one example of a reset password flow 04:13:09 As far as I could see password reset usually used email though? 04:13:37 zzo38: a reset password flow where first you answer questions or whatever before being allowed to send the email 04:13:42 hypothetically 04:14:08 Sgeo: That isn't a problem either; you have HTML forms for that! 04:14:38 How about logging into a website? 04:14:55 There is HTTP authentication. 04:15:06 -!- Froox has joined. 04:15:06 -!- Frooxius has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 04:15:33 (Of course it isn't as secure as SSH, even if HTTPS is used) 04:21:46 And when you don't require these kind of things, you need no HTML, HTTP, SSH, SMTP, or whatever else; the gopher protocol is really simple and all stateless; there is no cookie or anything like that. Also, you don't have to make a separate "mobile version", or make other considerations about the user interface and so on; 04:22:18 ide/theory: avoid having state by avoiding passwords by avoiding having information to secure 04:22:45 it works just as well with a keyboard, mouse, touch-screen, various sizes, hardcopy terminal, fax, punched cards, postal mail, or whatever else; without having to change anything. 04:23:00 wouldn't gopher be slower with postal mail 04:23:40 shachaf: Yes it would certainly be slower with postal mail, but that isn't the point at all. 04:24:11 Bike: Yes, in cases where you don't need a password, where you can do without a password and that stuff, it can. 04:25:00 addendum: never need a password 04:26:39 When you do need a secure system, there are several ways. For example, require login over SSH. Or, you can encrypt the files and download it, and whoever has the password can use a decryption software to access it. 04:26:55 whoa whoa whoa, didn't i just explain. don't need a secure system 04:27:23 If you don't need a secure system, then that is easy: ignore all of that stuff, and make more simplicity. 04:27:46 -!- augur has joined. 04:31:11 also fun security fact, my job's secure login works over https, but also has an http address. it asks for credentials and takes them but then presents nothing if you use it 04:31:14 v. secure 04:32:52 it's really negligent to run a plaintext HTTP server that serves anything other than a redirect with an HSTS header 04:32:55 to HTTPS 04:33:15 i assume letting me enter my password over http is also bad 04:33:31 yes 04:33:50 thankfully, i'm the type of person who'd give up their password for a chocolate bar, so there's no net lowering of security in my using this system 04:34:17 if you serve any part of your domain at all over plain HTTP -- even the boringest static terms of service page -- then an active attacker has arbitrary code execution for that whole subdomain and can substantially mess with the entire domain 04:34:33 i'd ask them to fix it, but it took like three days with IT to get on in the first place so i'm not gonna bother 04:34:35 a lot of web developers don't know this 04:34:44 arbitrary, huh. 04:34:55 yep, they can inject arbitrary javascript 04:35:17 which has permission to read cookies for that domain, mess with same-origin windows, make same-origin requests etc 04:35:23 That is also a problem with HTTP and HTML in general. Even if you do use entirely HTTPS! 04:35:29 kmc: can't read every cookie 04:35:34 that's right Sgeo 04:35:40 Use SSH for secure login interactive sessions, and work much better. 04:35:45 HttpOnly cookies are a weak protection though 04:35:56 you can still make requests that will include that cookie 04:36:09 i imagine Sgeo meant Secure cookies 04:36:10 it doesn't really matter because if you can inject JS then you can also sniff the cookie off the wire 04:36:18 nice, the instructions have how to do it on XP 04:36:37 "Because we use a newer file storage system at the College of Veterinary Medicine, older Mac operating systems cannot access Vetmed files. You will need Mac OS 10.6 (Snow Leopard) or software that allows for Mac-Windows interoperability, such as Thursby Software's Dave" 04:36:39 in some cases you can overflow the cookie jar and replace the cookie with a non-Secure cookie on a broader domain 04:36:54 kmc: as shachaf notes, can't read Secure HttpOnly cookies over the wire... but yeah, arbitrary requests to the real site 04:37:15 anyway, even just not serving anything over http isn't sufficient without something like hsts 04:37:34 right 04:38:42 unfortunately, as you probably already know, computer security 04:38:46 You can still serve plain files over HTTP, and forms and stuff which are simple enough, but there are generally better ways in any case already. 04:38:57 like gopher 04:39:38 computer SCOWrity 04:39:42 gophers 04:40:21 Remember that there are other protocols, and HTTP can be used to fall-back-on, perhaps. 04:40:38 (There are also better ways of using HTTP than all those terrible ways, too, though.) 04:42:06 the trouble with fallbacks and security is that they have to be as secure as the not fallbackthings 04:42:24 Post a warning message. 04:42:32 it's fun going back and forth from homomorphic encryption or whatever to My Daily Life 04:42:33 Disable some features if needed. 04:43:33 Write a warning message on the webpage that says that it is "deprecated" and insecure, and that you are offered to better alternatives if possible. 04:44:01 that only helps if the user sees the web page 04:44:23 That is true, of course. 04:44:49 `quote zzo38.*reasonable 04:44:50 113) Some people are reasonable, some people who are not reasonable insist on changing things so therefore progress depends on not reasonablepeple 04:44:56 But otherwise, if it consists of nothing then the problem corrects itself (giving you another problem, if you didn't already fix that one). 04:59:07 `danddreclist 51 04:59:08 danddreclist 51: shachaf nooodl boily \ http://zzo38computer.org/dnd/recording/level20.tex 05:02:00 There it is! 05:03:12 Do you like this latest Dungeons&Dragons game by now? 05:03:34 you'll never shine if you don't glow 05:04:00 Yes 05:04:14 But I don't glow either. 05:05:22 oh 05:13:12 [wiki] [[Stacked Brainfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39483&oldid=32424 * Killer64 * (+0) USing -> Using 05:32:10 -!- ^v has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 05:32:23 -!- ^v has joined. 05:36:11 -!- tertu has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 05:37:12 someone familiar with category theory please confirm/deny: if F is a functor, the statement "F is injective on objects" is not preserved by natural isomorphism 05:38:54 sounds right to me 05:38:58 motherfunctor 05:40:33 e.g. if you have a category C with two isomorphic objects and two functors F, G : C -> C where F is the identity and G maps both objects to the first one (and arrows to the identity) 05:42:08 there should be "category theory for dummies" 05:42:50 @google "category theory for dummies" 05:42:50 http://homepages.inf.ed.ac.uk/jcheney/presentations/ct4d1.pdf 05:42:51 Title: Category Theory for Dummies (I) 05:44:33 lol 05:46:04 -!- MoALTz_ has joined. 05:49:03 -!- MoALTz__ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 05:50:53 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:51:28 -!- tromp has joined. 05:55:34 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 05:58:50 Don't be so idiotic and play a DEFENDER card if it would be to your opponent's advantage for you to do so. 06:03:17 I was trying to think of use of necessity modal operator in Haskell, for example, to make the type specify only top-level values can be used (one way to do it is a class), and so on, would that be something like that? 06:03:54 What's with the error message "the connection was reset"? 06:05:44 Why is it shown to users in web browsers? Why not "closed" or "disconnected" or "aborted" or something? Are people expected to understand what "reset" means? 06:05:59 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 06:09:43 shachaf: Reset is a normal english word 06:09:56 Yes. 06:09:58 Are people expected to understand what "connection" means 06:10:15 Jafet: Also a normal english word 06:10:19 What does this use of it have to do with the normal English use? 06:12:05 shachaf: Reset or connection? 06:12:21 reset 06:13:26 It does fit, though I suppose you are correct in that closed would be better 06:13:36 @wn reset 06:13:38 *** "reset" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)" 06:13:38 reset 06:13:38 n 1: device for resetting instruments or controls 06:13:38 v 1: set anew; "They re-set the date on the clock" 06:13:38 2: set to zero; "reset instruments and dials" 06:13:40 3: adjust again after an initial failure [syn: {readjust}, 06:13:42 {reset}] 06:13:55 The connection was set anew 06:13:58 The connection was set to zero 06:14:05 The connection was adjusted again after an initial failure 06:15:45 @wn referer 06:15:46 No match for "referer". 06:15:47 Jafet: You're right, it doesn't make sense 06:17:22 I suspect most people do not actually read any text once they see the chrome://global/skin/icons/warning-large.png 06:17:58 (Why a warning symbol is used for errors is another story) 06:20:31 "The webpage at chrome://global/skin/icons/warning-large.png might be temporarily down or it may have moved permanently to a new web address." 06:20:38 got me where i wanted anyway 06:20:44 shachaf: Browser? 06:20:54 chromium 06:21:03 v34 06:21:25 Ah 06:22:34 -!- password2 has joined. 06:28:59 password2: Why not password? 06:29:09 ******** 06:30:08 because someone registered password 06:30:47 Is it actively used? 06:31:06 not as far as i know 06:33:42 Is there not a time period after which it becomes free? 06:33:59 dunno 06:34:04 -!- ^v has quit (Quit: http://i.imgur.com/Akc6r.gif). 06:36:34 aparently password was used once this year 06:36:58 registered and used 15 weeks ago 06:37:52 Guess its password 06:38:01 heh 07:36:46 -!- MoALTz_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 07:37:33 -!- MoALTz_ has joined. 07:41:14 -!- impomatic has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 07:41:50 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 07:43:48 -!- shikhout has joined. 07:44:18 -!- zzo38 has joined. 07:46:44 -!- shikhin has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 07:48:01 -!- edwardk_ has joined. 07:48:46 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 07:49:26 -!- edwardk has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 07:55:48 big beats are the best, get high all the time 08:14:19 -!- quintopia has joined. 08:18:04 -!- nucular has joined. 08:18:04 -!- nucular has quit (Changing host). 08:18:05 -!- nucular has joined. 08:30:21 @tell Taneb http://eso.mroman.ch/ESOSC/ESOSC-2014-D2-R1.pdf 08:30:21 Consider it noted. 08:48:45 -!- oerjan has joined. 08:50:34 -!- Patashu_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 08:54:00 -!- tromp has joined. 08:57:00 oerjan: i finished norge. i brought a bottle of the linie aquavit but did not yet try it 08:57:41 excellent 08:58:19 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 09:02:03 the Florida psychic Sheree Silver disassociated herself from the practice, telling the Sun-Sentinel, "I can't imagine anyone wasting their time and money on someone like this when there are so many legitimate psychics out there." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rumpology 09:07:24 The irony? 09:08:18 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 09:09:31 I wouldn't be interested in the future anyway unless I could change it 09:11:49 https://neocities.org/blog/the-fcc-is-now-rate-limited 09:20:23 is the FCC doing a lot of surfing on neocities? 09:21:38 That isn’t really relevant. 09:23:07 -!- password2 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 09:24:24 mroman_: the twist is that you _can_ change the future, but only if you don't know it hth 09:24:29 why does a democratic nation have a bureau responsible for censoring stuff? 09:24:48 oerjan: ic. 09:25:21 so once a physic tells me my future it is carved in stone 09:25:28 wouldn't that give them supernatural power? 09:26:20 well most psychics don't actually know the future just potentialities hth 09:26:55 Why did I optimize the implementation of my algorithm for my bachelor thesis :( 09:26:59 that was sort of a stupid move to do 09:27:17 mroman_: you mean now you have nothing to do for your masters? 09:27:22 No. 09:27:42 Now all my tons of measurements I did are obsolete. 09:28:05 shocking (huh.) 09:28:11 yeah 09:28:24 and it's the last week of the bachelor thesis more or less 09:28:31 I've already documented and discussed my findings 09:28:39 and suddenly now everything is obsolete 09:30:26 eek 09:31:31 do you mean someone beat you to it 09:31:47 * oerjan doesn't quite understand 09:32:07 oerjan: Well 09:32:17 You gotta write a bachelor thesis repot of around 50 pages 09:32:28 documenting your stuff, measurements and conclusions from the measurements 09:32:40 no, since I've optimized stuff like hell 09:33:00 all those conclusions are somewhat useless now 09:33:16 because I've got something better now that scales differently 09:33:26 *now, 09:33:36 ah so you beat _yourself_. tricky. 09:34:18 (also I'm pretty sure someone in the world already beats me anyway) 09:34:24 and I'm not doing a masters btw 09:34:25 yep, you clearly should have left that for the masters. 09:34:31 ah. 09:34:44 I'd want a master from a university 09:34:51 if any 09:34:55 not the master I could do here 09:35:03 this isn't a university? ok. 09:35:38 * oerjan has a hunch it'll be called Hochschule 09:35:38 Nope. It's not. 09:35:47 oerjan: it is 09:36:46 norway also has this sort of folkehøyskole system parallel and somewhat lower in status to the universities 09:37:53 yeah 09:38:00 they run under the slogan "different but equal" here 09:38:09 ah 09:38:11 well... according to the "real" universities we're not equal ;) 09:38:20 and according to Hochschule we're equal but different 09:38:28 pick your side ;) 09:38:47 YOU ARE BREAKING LEIBNITZ RULE YOU INFIDELS 09:38:59 *LEIBNI... er let me look it up 09:39:10 Leibnitz made a rule? 09:40:11 -!- shikhout has changed nick to shikhin. 09:40:41 *LEIBNIZ LAW 09:40:53 *LEIBNIZ'S LAW 09:41:12 he also made several rules. someone should clean up the wikipedia redirections. 09:44:42 basically, the law that equal stuff has all properties in common. 09:45:07 which you can also formulate as the formal logical scheme a = b => (P a <=> P b) 09:48:11 I'm always confused with lemma, theorem and laws 09:48:33 Do you say "law" when it's really a "definition/axiom"? 09:49:59 looking at the philosophical mess "Leibniz's law" redirects to on wikipedia, i think the point is that leibniz wasn't really thinking about formal logic. 09:50:09 (not looking too closely, mind you) 09:50:37 although the formal scheme gets to be called the same thing by analogy. 09:51:03 and could in principle be used as the definition of equality. 09:52:16 some theorem proving systems might, but i vaguely recall some don't for technical reasons (impredicative types possibly) 09:52:17 That'd be the best definition of equality I know. 09:52:28 and probably the only one :) 09:53:36 but I don't know any definitions for a < b that'd hold 09:53:55 n < (n+1) isn't really a good definition at all 09:54:18 well = is a general logical principle but < refers to a particular order on a set 09:54:49 for reals you can use a <= b iff b-a is a square. 09:55:45 -!- password2 has joined. 09:55:50 because squares can't be negative 09:55:51 ic. 09:56:34 for naturals you can use a <= b iff b-a exists at all 09:57:28 (if you say, "but it exists as a negative number", then i will note that the real version also breaks if you include complex numbers) 09:57:59 there are no negative natural numbers 09:58:03 yep 09:58:16 *right 09:58:24 Why would I say it exists as a negative number :D 09:58:54 you might be quarrelsome and stupid like people usually are in these discussions on the internet hth 09:59:13 (HYPOTHETICALLY SPEAKING) 10:00:12 -!- conehead has quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com). 10:00:18 I've had some discrete mathematics. Not much, but enough to know that in certain thingies certain other thingies just don't exist :) 10:00:27 *Groups 10:00:29 and stuff 10:00:40 I only know the german words for these things 10:01:20 Gruppenringkörper 10:01:25 :) 10:02:53 for natural numbers, < as the transitive closure of n < (n+1) isn't that bad. 10:03:58 i recall that logicians / complexity theorists have investigated how much extra power you get from allowing transitive closure on an otherwise very weak logic 10:04:46 Good morning 10:04:51 (i say / complexity theorists because it turns out that the smallest complexity classes have a strong correspondence with logic) 10:05:14 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 10:06:35 good morning Taneb 10:11:14 mroman_, could we add a justification of the decisions made for second normal form to ESOSC 2014 D2? 10:16:35 Sure. 10:16:57 oerjan: I'm doing crowd simulation as my bachelor thesis 10:17:16 or "distribute it to multiple machines" to be more specific. 10:17:19 and well 10:17:31 It simulates 200k people in 11x realtime 10:17:40 I'm pretty sure somebody out there can do it in 0.1x realtime 10:19:05 (11x on a single machine) 10:21:29 Taneb: It's because they are "nops"? 10:21:35 and ][ is abused for comments 10:21:49 or what kind of justification did you have in mind? 10:21:52 That 10:22:34 although [...][foo] isn't first normal form 10:22:45 You only could have comments using brainfuck commands that way ;) 10:24:11 making comments in a language where no character can be included if it can be proved never to be executed sounds awkward. 10:24:49 Taneb: +- isn't a nop if cells don't wrap-around 10:25:06 i.e 255+ => 255- => 254 10:25:17 And <> isn't a nop if cells are bounded on the left 10:25:22 true 10:26:21 so snf kinda assumes wrap-around 10:32:29 Is second normal form necessary? It's more like a linter than anything else 10:32:52 I don't see any benifit of having it 10:32:56 but someone suggested it 10:35:07 *benefit 10:36:05 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Read error: Connection timed out). 10:43:54 and judging by your question I assume it was nortti 10:46:13 We could remove it 10:46:17 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 10:46:22 but then it wouldn't make sence to have a "first" normal form 10:46:43 unless we're going to add one 5 years later or so 10:46:50 -!- password2 has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 10:47:24 hm. 10:47:34 ][ shouldn't assume wrap-around of any kind 10:48:35 -!- Patashu has joined. 10:49:38 -!- Patashu_ has joined. 10:49:38 -!- Patashu has quit (Disconnected by services). 10:58:51 http://eso.mroman.ch/ESOSC/ESOSC-2014-D2-R2.pdf <- well. I removed it for now 10:58:55 Suggestions still welcome :) 11:07:33 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 11:08:10 mroman_, "Brainfuck" in both times in paragraph two should have a small b 11:08:39 In fact, whenever it's not at the start of a sentence or a heading (or possibly in "Normalized Brainfuck"?) 11:09:00 I thought names are writting with a starting capital letter 11:09:03 And instead of "interpreters (or compilers)", why not "implementations" 11:09:09 Brainfuck is weird 11:09:22 Look at its readme, for example 11:09:32 yeah 11:09:35 small letter 11:11:08 *written 11:11:39 to ease interpretation of brainfuck programs 11:11:45 that's gotta change too 11:11:54 I think 11:12:00 since compilers usually don't interpret them :) 11:12:24 well 11:12:49 to ease reading/handling/parsing? 11:13:05 implementation? 11:13:33 to ease implementation of brainfuck programs? 11:13:47 Hmm, no 11:13:56 parsing would be best 11:13:59